Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1746556 times)

dwturducken

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2440 on: September 17, 2014, 08:31:45 PM »
The problem with old defiance is that it violated one of the cardinal rules of multiplayer game design. It made it so that a buff from a teammate (i.e. force field bubbles, maneuvers, etc) could actually reduce your effectiveness.

When your design encourages people to ask to be excluded from team buffs, you have a problem.

I had a teammate who loved to speed boost the team, once in a mission. Normally, I had no problem with this, except in a cave map. For whatever reason, I always got "snagged" on terrain features, which annoyed the hell out of me. He never would allow me the chance to get out of range, if I asked, so I would always either delay entering or rush ahead to avoid the boost. :)

(I know. It's my problem, rather than a general problem with the game, but I felt it bore pointing out.)
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Nightmarer

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2441 on: September 17, 2014, 08:44:20 PM »
I knew someone that went through a phase where the way he played his energy blaster was to run right into the next spawn and Nova it, then yell "Help!" and die on the spot.  Then wait for the team to clean up the spawn and rez him, and then use nothing but his ranged attacks from a distance until Nova was recharged again.  And this was pre-Leeroy Jenkins.

That was when I began to realize I was doing it all wrong.  Because he only did that on teams he knew he could get away with it.  On lesser teams, he played more conservatively.  And that's when I realized that all this power the devs were dumb enough to give us was wasted on just killing things faster.  What it could do was allow us to play City of Heroes like no other players would ever be allowed to play anything, and get away with it.  Leeroy Jenkins wiped his team with him.  But before that ever happened, CoH players were pulling stunts far stupider, and often surviving to pull even stupider stunts next (or at least, not killing everyone else around them).

In City of Heroes, power was opportunity.  Opportunity to see if a team of scrappers could brawl the Envoy of Shadows to death (if they were high enough level, they could).  Opportunity to see how many times you can use Soul Transfer in a single room (my record: fifteen in the LRSF trying to solo an entire room of Longbow).  Opportunity to see what would happen if eight blasters set off their nukes simultaneously fighting Nightstar (she'll kill all of you: might want to avoid that one).

If you were a veteran player and you spent all your time and energy trying to do what everyone else was doing, just faster, you were not seeing all the game had to offer.  Sometimes you had to stop and nuke the roses.

I don't know what to say, I wish my English was better since I have this feeling there is something here I am not fully getting. All I can say is I loved soloing blasters on old defiance because when it allowed (by sheer luck if you wish) get rid of a full group with a shred of life on my bar it felt great, something similar to playing a SR scrapper at the time, just much harder but fun nonetheless and I miss it.-

Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2442 on: September 17, 2014, 09:02:08 PM »
In that case it would have been a second buff for defenders, since they got a damage buff built into vigilance when they soloed.  I do agree vigilance needed a change though, as it just didn't do much.  At least the game was very very blunt in saying not to rely on vigilance due to the high damage enemies did.

But when considering the damage buff that defenders got for solo you have to remember the binary nature of vigilance. it was either or. One while solo and one while on teams. No other inherent worked like that.

And the teaming buff given was at cross purpose to the goal of defending which was to keep the team full and happy. What it actually accomplished was to help force more defenders into an offender mentality (which actually wasn't abnormal as far as I was concerned).
When a defender behaves as an offender they often don't have the time to get themselves in the exact position required for their team to give that big aoe buff or time things just right for that targeted heal so they just jump in and do their thing. This leaves the team just a bit less protected than before and sometimes that makes the team take more damage than it would from a defender only stance. This, in turn, gives the offender more end discount and allows him to behave even more like an offender as he can blast and run around like the proverbial chicken without much care to endurance needs.

Personally, I think that's one of the reasons traps was such a comfortable set for players. It's very nature made it an aggressive set in teams and that gave the defender lots of endurance to play with. Add to that the defenses and mitigation it could produce in short order which gave the player a pretty good amount of safety and it builds on itself.

I still think that defenders needed work with vigilance and the only real thing I can think of that defenders needed in a pinch was status resistance. Status protection would be too much, but a scaling resistance would allow the defender to be mezzed for less time giving him a chance to break free in time to help the team if all hell broke lose whether he was offending or defending. Plus it's kind of unique and it fits the theme of defending.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 09:07:26 PM by Ankhammon »
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2443 on: September 17, 2014, 09:08:01 PM »
I think that in general, Blasters did more AoE damage than Scrappers, not numerically in a chain (unless the calculation makes adjustments for area covered and/or maximum targets), but in normal gameplay.

I set out to prove just that to make the case that since Blasters did better AoE anyway, the devs should focus on enhancing that to distinguish them from other damage dealers.  After doing a very in-depth analysis on paper (not just chain calculations, but an actual engineering analysis of the gameplay of AoE usage) and a large amount of data collection in-game, I managed to prove the opposite: that on average, the higher target caps and larger AoE area did not confer a significant advantage to blasters outside of certain min/max conditions.

Part of the problem was that formula I mentioned.  AoEs that had larger area of effect also recharged slower.  That meant you did not get larger area of effect "for free."  In fact, if you could not directly translate larger area of effect into more targets hit *consistently* then having larger AoEs was actually a *penalty*.  Because you paid for that larger area of effect in higher endurance costs and slower recharge whether you hit ten targets or two.

And if you could take advantage of larger maximum target caps without dying, you almost certainly would have to be performing vastly better than the devs datamined blaster performance.  Which is another way of saying the devs' datamining of archetype performance proves very few blasters were capable of taking advantage of the higher target caps (which keep in mind we're talking about the difference between 10 and 16 in most cases), which is another way of saying those higher target caps weren't helping the vast majority of blasters.

Critter AI also conspired to neutralize blaster AoE advantages.  There were basically two kinds of critters.  The first kind tended to charge up to you and engage from melee - "melee preferred" critters.  Then there were the kind that preferred to stand off and fire from range most of the time, engaging in melee only occasionally - "ranged preferred."  The problem here is that neither of them preferred to stand in a 20 foot circle.  The melee engagers would cluster around players allowing them to be hit with smaller AoEs or PBAoEs.  The ranged engagers preferred to scatter wider than a 20 foot AoE could consistently hit.  And the fact you often had both in the same spawns meant critters tended to split up into groups separated by significant distance, further diluting the effects of large AoEs.

In high density large team missions where the critters were wall to wall, larger AoEs with higher target caps had a definite advantage.  But there was no way for Blasters to translate that into an advantage on a consistent basis.  And when they could make effective use of them at all, it was often on teams where the offensive advantage of those large AoEs translated into extra XP for everyone, while the aggro associated with them translated into debt for just the blaster himself or herself. 

That actually creates a situation where those AoEs can actually cost blasters performance relative to everyone else.  In solo missions those AoEs don't generate significantly more damage than melee AoEs but they cost more, and in teams they can create more debt for the blaster than they incrementally help reward earning rates.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2444 on: September 17, 2014, 09:11:17 PM »
I don't know what to say, I wish my English was better since I have this feeling there is something here I am not fully getting.

Put simply, City of Heroes allowed players to have so much more power compared to most MMOs that players could afford to do weird things that were just fun, without having to worry about being killed by the game if they did not play absolutely perfectly.  A bad day in City of Heroes was often better than a good day in other MMOs that emphasized much more difficult combat with much more restrictions on the abilities of the players.

JanessaVR

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2445 on: September 17, 2014, 09:16:18 PM »
I had a teammate who loved to speed boost the team, once in a mission. Normally, I had no problem with this, except in a cave map. For whatever reason, I always got "snagged" on terrain features, which annoyed the hell out of me. He never would allow me the chance to get out of range, if I asked, so I would always either delay entering or rush ahead to avoid the boost. :)

(I know. It's my problem, rather than a general problem with the game, but I felt it bore pointing out.)
Believe it or not, I actually used to train for that situation, and have started using Titan Icon to train for it again.  When a large Oranbega cavern was cleared out, I would practice full speed runs of Flight (which I always have slotted as fast as it will reasonably go), down twisty-turny hallways lined with torches with the objective to make it to the end without snagging myself on any obstacles along the way.

Phaetan

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2446 on: September 17, 2014, 09:24:11 PM »
Thanks for discussing all this, Arcana. many of your points are things that I'd gotten a feel for being true in the game, but I'd not had the resources and done the math like you have to add greater credence to them.

Very interesting reads, to be sure.  And I will never forget the surprise I had when I went from my first character (Elec/Dev Blaster) to my first alt (SS/Will Brute.)  While I love my blaster and she was my first Incarnate, there was little comparison in the play experience between the two characters...

BadWolf

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2447 on: September 17, 2014, 09:36:34 PM »
But when considering the damage buff that defenders got for solo you have to remember the binary nature of vigilance. it was either or. One while solo and one while on teams. No other inherent worked like that.

And the teaming buff given was at cross purpose to the goal of defending which was to keep the team full and happy. What it actually accomplished was to help force more defenders into an offender mentality (which actually wasn't abnormal as far as I was concerned).
When a defender behaves as an offender they often don't have the time to get themselves in the exact position required for their team to give that big aoe buff or time things just right for that targeted heal so they just jump in and do their thing. This leaves the team just a bit less protected than before and sometimes that makes the team take more damage than it would from a defender only stance. This, in turn, gives the offender more end discount and allows him to behave even more like an offender as he can blast and run around like the proverbial chicken without much care to endurance needs.

I think that a lot of people here would...um, no pun intended, defend...the idea that a good defender should be able to attack while still using their buffs and heals. The "offenders" were actually far more useful in the later stages of the game than people who thought of the archetype as purely a protect-and-heal role, because by the time everyone was in their 30s many archetypes were sufficiently well protected through their own powers as to not need tons of defensive buffs. When you're a level 40 defender teaming with two tankers, a scrapper, a blaster and three controllers, your heals are not going to be needed. Your damage, on the other hand, is always welcome. :)

That said, if I was reworking Vigilance I might make it into a conscious choice rather than a passive effect--that is to say, something you could choose to be an endurance discount or a damage buff, rather than something the game chose for you. Giving you the option between damage and endurance makes it more useful in different situations, instead of being something that you only wanted sometimes.

opprime2828

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2448 on: September 17, 2014, 09:38:58 PM »
I had a teammate who loved to speed boost the team, once in a mission. Normally, I had no problem with this, except in a cave map. For whatever reason, I always got "snagged" on terrain features, which annoyed the hell out of me. He never would allow me the chance to get out of range, if I asked, so I would always either delay entering or rush ahead to avoid the boost. :)



 
You know, that's another thing I've not found in any other MMO: anything CLOSE to the buffing power of Kinetics.  Seriously.  Nothing has come even close. Not even just because of Fulcrum Shift, but speed boost, Increased Density, and even the debuffing.  Nothing has come close in any game I've played.
 
 
Man CoH was magical.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2449 on: September 17, 2014, 10:00:59 PM »
I think that a lot of people here would...um, no pun intended, defend...the idea that a good defender should be able to attack while still using their buffs and heals. The "offenders" were actually far more useful in the later stages of the game than people who thought of the archetype as purely a protect-and-heal role, because by the time everyone was in their 30s many archetypes were sufficiently well protected through their own powers as to not need tons of defensive buffs. When you're a level 40 defender teaming with two tankers, a scrapper, a blaster and three controllers, your heals are not going to be needed. Your damage, on the other hand, is always welcome. :)

That said, if I was reworking Vigilance I might make it into a conscious choice rather than a passive effect--that is to say, something you could choose to be an endurance discount or a damage buff, rather than something the game chose for you. Giving you the option between damage and endurance makes it more useful in different situations, instead of being something that you only wanted sometimes.

I agree with you totally there, and I'd make it something one can benefit from without letting everyone take tons of damage.  90% the reason I loved time manipulation, it had a lot of things to help offensively later while not sacrificing the early game, I could see using the defenders endurance discount to help with it's steep end cost if it actually worked in a way that wasn't counter intuitive to team play.
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Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2450 on: September 17, 2014, 10:11:11 PM »
I think that a lot of people here would...um, no pun intended, defend...the idea that a good defender should be able to attack while still using their buffs and heals. The "offenders" were actually far more useful in the later stages of the game than people who thought of the archetype as purely a protect-and-heal role, because by the time everyone was in their 30s many archetypes were sufficiently well protected through their own powers as to not need tons of defensive buffs. When you're a level 40 defender teaming with two tankers, a scrapper, a blaster and three controllers, your heals are not going to be needed. Your damage, on the other hand, is always welcome. :)

That said, if I was reworking Vigilance I might make it into a conscious choice rather than a passive effect--that is to say, something you could choose to be an endurance discount or a damage buff, rather than something the game chose for you. Giving you the option between damage and endurance makes it more useful in different situations, instead of being something that you only wanted sometimes.

I probably didn't describe things as well as I could have. Let me give my definitions of Pure defending, hybrid and offending strategies.
In the early days of CoH (mostly due to trinity thinking) there were many defenders who skipped almost all of their blast sets. I never believed in this kind of defending, so damage was always part of my playstyle.
From about the moment I first read about repeat offenders and the strategy they employed, I kind of formed my own opinion on defending vs. offending. Later, I discerned a third layer which is kind of a hybrid. If viewed as strategy, each has a place in the sun and a very good defender can switch between those when needed.

A Pure defender is one who places first emphasis on his/her team defensive capabilities. They start to see things like if times correctly, Twilight Grasp will become an autohit (if you can get the power to hit just as the mob faceplants then it hit's all but automatically). Doing tricks like this will, by necessity, require the player to lose an opportunity to blast to make sure the team gets the correct healing it needs. Blasting comes something to do as cycles allow.

Offending is the player playing a defender as aggressively as possible. Scrapperlock becomes a trait here and the player only uses the buffs/debuffs as they need them. If a team member gets them then that's a plus. You've got things to do. As you've pointed out this is a strategy that plays very well on veteran and higher level teams.

Then there was a hybrid of the two. Delaying an aoe buff because the player was finishing off a Lt. is perfectly acceptable since you are still adding to the team as a whole. Since you are as concerned with your offensive capability you might not get each person covered with your aoe. If you are tossing out a twilight grasp, you won't really take time to pull off your trick and just rely on your normal acc to get the hit. Using flash arrow, you can't take the time to make sure it will hit every enemy because you need to get the offense going.

Each shortcut you take from pure defending gives just a bit more opportunity for your team to take damage giving you an end discount. Keeping these three strategies in mind, vigilance end discount helps the offending end more.
Even solo, the offending mindset (mandatory for solo) benefits the player cuz, well... moar damage n' stuff.


Cogito, Ergo... eh?

darkgob

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2451 on: September 17, 2014, 10:36:09 PM »
And that's when I realized that all this power the devs were dumb enough to give us was wasted on just killing things faster.  What it could do was allow us to play City of Heroes like no other players would ever be allowed to play anything, and get away with it.  Leeroy Jenkins wiped his team with him.  But before that ever happened, CoH players were pulling stunts far stupider, and often surviving to pull even stupider stunts next (or at least, not killing everyone else around them).

On Pinnacle this practice was known as, "Hold my beer and watch this!".

Put simply, City of Heroes allowed players to have so much more power compared to most MMOs that players could afford to do weird things that were just fun, without having to worry about being killed by the game if they did not play absolutely perfectly.  A bad day in City of Heroes was often better than a good day in other MMOs that emphasized much more difficult combat with much more restrictions on the abilities of the players.

Besides which, penalties for dying were also lighter, especially as XP debt was "nerfed" into pointlessness over the years.

MM3squints

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2452 on: September 17, 2014, 10:48:26 PM »
On Pinnacle this practice was known as, "Hold my beer and watch this!".

Besides which, penalties for dying were also lighter, especially as XP debt was "nerfed" into pointlessness over the years.

Usually any debt that was accumulated was even further nullified with patrol xp

hejtmane

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2453 on: September 17, 2014, 10:49:07 PM »
But they kept the rule for Blasters, and only blasters.  And no one on the dev team could ever adequately explain why.  Not even Arbiter Hawk, whose answer basically was "I don't believe in that rule."  Thus: I24.

I knew you where happy with I24 because you said your favorite was a blaster I always felt for the blaster I got a few up to the 30's not my cup of tea but my fire/mm was my best Posi TF soloer for farming merits that was about the only time I played it after i got to the 30's.

Man I24 was looking so good for Blasters  and yet if we get the game back in maintenance mode it is I23 which means more wait time for Blasters before they get fixed

hejtmane

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2454 on: September 17, 2014, 10:56:55 PM »
I can't tell you how often I had a frustrating discussion trying to explain this on a non-scrapper board.

Moonlighter~

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blacksly

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2455 on: September 17, 2014, 11:30:26 PM »
so blasters hit more, did less damage, got agro from more enemies, and died because of no defense....not a good plan.

It was possible, but good blasters waited a couple of seconds for the Tank to get aggro, or for the Controller to control the mobs, or for the Defender to debuff, and then they were okay.

It was also possible that they were on bad teams where none of that happened, and they tasted floor. But that's where Scrappers were better not because of damage potential, but because on bad teams you needed kind of an ability to solo since the team wasn't supporting you properly.

blacksly

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2456 on: September 17, 2014, 11:40:12 PM »
In high density large team missions where the critters were wall to wall, larger AoEs with higher target caps had a definite advantage.  But there was no way for Blasters to translate that into an advantage on a consistent basis.  And when they could make effective use of them at all, it was often on teams where the offensive advantage of those large AoEs translated into extra XP for everyone, while the aggro associated with them translated into debt for just the blaster himself or herself. 

That actually creates a situation where those AoEs can actually cost blasters performance relative to everyone else.  In solo missions those AoEs don't generate significantly more damage than melee AoEs but they cost more, and in teams they can create more debt for the blaster than they incrementally help reward earning rates.

Well, yes. It was only on medium-large teams where the Blaster's larger AoEs gave it the advantage. Soloing, the Scrapper had the advantage because, being alone, he could influence the mob locations in order to pack them into his smaller AoEs. And it's certainly true that the Blaster's AoE advantage on teams is a team advantage, while its weaker defenses is a personal disadvantage. If you are talking about advancement rates, then Blasters were clearly the problem child.

What I mean is that if you have a decent team, and you're adding a member for damage, usually you got a bit better improvement by adding a Blaster. Most decent teams had enough defense to protect the Blaster, either some controls to keep mobs from splitting into melee/ranged groups or a Tank doing the same, and enough mobs per spawn to take advantage of the increased AoE sizes. There were many arguments on the forums about "why would you want a Blaster when a Scrapper does more damage", and my point was always that IN TEAMS, Blaster damage was fine. It was when soloing or when on bad teams, that Blasters had their issues.

That's why I usually argue on the side of Blaster DAMAGE being okay despite Scrappers doing better in calculations. Because in the conditions where Blasters are supposed to shine (as a damaging part of a team), they do fine. It's not the damage (at least, not the AoE damage) where they were lacking, it's the defense. As you mentioned, the Devs kept fixing team-oriented ATs by giving them the damage to solo, but never did fix the one team-oriented AT that needed defensive improvement to solo.

hejtmane

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2457 on: September 17, 2014, 11:45:25 PM »
It was possible, but good blasters waited a couple of seconds for the Tank to get aggro, or for the Controller to control the mobs, or for the Defender to debuff, and then they were okay.

It was also possible that they were on bad teams where none of that happened, and they tasted floor. But that's where Scrappers were better not because of damage potential, but because on bad teams you needed kind of an ability to solo since the team wasn't supporting you properly.

There was an added bonus with scrappers

With  the right secondary and build you could tank most the game

ivanhedgehog

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2458 on: September 17, 2014, 11:55:26 PM »
It was possible, but good blasters waited a couple of seconds for the Tank to get aggro, or for the Controller to control the mobs, or for the Defender to debuff, and then they were okay.

It was also possible that they were on bad teams where none of that happened, and they tasted floor. But that's where Scrappers were better not because of damage potential, but because on bad teams you needed kind of an ability to solo since the team wasn't supporting you properly.

unfortunately if I was solo, I didnt have any of those agro management tools

opprime2828

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #2459 on: September 18, 2014, 01:09:30 AM »
Put simply, City of Heroes allowed players to have so much more power compared to most MMOs that players could afford to do weird things that were just fun, without having to worry about being killed by the game if they did not play absolutely perfectly.  A bad day in City of Heroes was often better than a good day in other MMOs that emphasized much more difficult combat with much more restrictions on the abilities of the players.

 
That's the thing I've noticed about CoH versus other MMOs.  I always feel "weak" in other MMOs, even with strong characters, and consistently find the need to have the perfect team with the perfect makeup and everyone playing their roles in a very specific way (and in The Secret World, going so far as having specific powers slotted to use at specific moments) because the mechanics of any given "difficult" situation require that specific approach to succeed and no other method will work.  City of Heroes had content that was difficult, but not because it required some specific team makeup, but usually because it required strategy and coordination.  Any team could do an STF or an LGTF or a 5th Column TF, as long as they worked together.  You could have no defender whatsoever, or have four defenders and no blaster.  If you were short on tankers the controller could take over to keep Recluse busy, etc.  The key was in teaming well, not in having some specific role. But even with this freedom, you could STILL fail if your team didn't work together. 
 
I was on well balanced teams that failed big TFs, and I was on hodge podge teams that steam rolled.  When the incarnate trials came about, things got even tougher, but STILL didn't usually require specific archetypes or power combinations, just team coordination.  Even Hami raids, arguably the "hardest" raid in the game, was all about coordinating.  No kins showed up?  Thats ok as long as everyone coordinates.  Short on scrappers for melee damage?  Thats ok. Shuffling around some blasters with melee attacks to kill those teams, etc. 
 
It is even more impressive when consider that they were doing this on an engine far older and more limited than some of the newer engines being used in these new MMOs.