Author Topic: NCSoft Stockwatch  (Read 722270 times)

ukaserex

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1180 on: January 02, 2013, 02:25:53 AM »
OK.  THIS is just wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to count them.

According to a very reliable friend of mine, Guild Wars 2 is banning the handicapped.

This is how it breaks down.  Arenanet recently started purging GW2 of bots.  Except that the definition of a "bot" includes people that contact them to protest being banned because they are using handicapped-assists.

Here is my conversation with him:

He's on his way to visit (should be here in 3 days) and I am going to sit down with him, verify this, get some actual names of handicapped people that are banned and verify they can't get any redress, then turn this loose on the game journalists.  What I REALLY want to know is, is this ArenaNet?  Or is this an edict from NCSoft that ArenaNet is helpless to do anything about?  But that is what I will let the journalists try and figure out.
wowWOW! I'm finding this tidbit very interesting. I am still stunned at some of the anecdotal stories about those with types of autism and other types of learning issues being able to play CoH, and for some to be temporarily liberated in a sense. I keep imagining an episode of Oprah where an adorable little girl or boy was able to play CoH with one or both of their parents and be so-called "normal" for a time..and then Oprah finds out the game was closed...however, I don't think Oprah does her show anymore. Maybe Dr. Phil?
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1181 on: January 02, 2013, 02:38:48 AM »
What kind of a "handicap assist" would resemble a 3rd party macro to a video game client?

Victoria Victrix

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1182 on: January 02, 2013, 02:39:59 AM »
What kind of a "handicap assist" would resemble a 3rd party macro to a video game client?

Damn good question, innit?
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Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1183 on: January 02, 2013, 04:31:42 AM »
OK.  THIS is just wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to count them.

According to a very reliable friend of mine, Guild Wars 2 is banning the handicapped.

This is how it breaks down.  Arenanet recently started purging GW2 of bots.  Except that the definition of a "bot" includes people that contact them to protest being banned because they are using handicapped-assists.
Please excuse my language, but...

What the genuine crispy shit is this.

Yeah, I can understand wanting to remove bots from your game.  That's fine and dandy.  But there are two kinds of bots.

1). Bots that are wholly autonomous grindmachines.  They either interface with the client, or load up instead of the client.

2). Bots that follow commands given by a live player.  This is less a 'botting' and more 'multiboxing' - there's still an actual player present, but he's using macros to control several logged-in characters at once.

Bot type #1 is a problem.  They can grind 24-7 without rest, inflating the supply of whatever they intend to farm, be it money (creating inflation), or items (crashing item prices).  Getting rid of those is something I wholly support.

Bot type #2 isn't so much an issue.  Macro teams are often more limited than a equivalent team of actual players.  All of the macro'd characters have to be doing roughly the same thing as the primary character, they're elaborate to set up, they're vulnerable to lag and desynchronization, and you can't run each character to their optimum performance (there are some things an automated character just can't do).  In addition, since a living, breathing person has to be there to manage them, the macro team has to log off from time to time for rest and recuperation; they don't have as pervasive and constant an effect on the economy as a perpetually-active bot.

Further, #2 is stupidly easy to detect and thwart via game design and enforcement.  Simply force teams to split up occasionally to deal with multiple threats, and arrange dynamic team content that's more than just tank-and-spank.  Further, if you see someone with a heavily-geared main tank, followed around hot on his heels by a healer and a gaggle of barely-equipped ranged DPS classes that all seem to follow his movements near exactly and never use more than a couple of their skills at a time, then you've probably spotted a macro team.

Short summary? There's no reason to ban people for disabled-assist software.  Simple enforcement will get rid of macro teams.  The only programs you need to ban are those that allow for fully-autonomous bots, and those tend to be very specific to the game they're botting for.

houtex

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1184 on: January 02, 2013, 05:02:25 AM »
I had a reply to this handicapped thing here:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7586.msg98259.html#msg98259

But I didn't know it was being discussed here.  After reading Kaiser's message... meh, I probably shoulda stayed outta this.

Ham handed at best, the way they're doing it.  One can only hope they didn't plan on needing to do this (what?!  They FARM STUFF?!  Inconceivable!) and this is their kludge until they can get a MARTy in or whatever.

Or... yep, they're jerks.

dwturducken

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1185 on: January 02, 2013, 06:02:31 AM »
It might be possible to get the Institute for Justice involved. It's a bit like the ACLU. Regardless, enough players contacting some sort of organization like that whose sole existence is being the the big group of lawyers who stand up for little guys might get some attention.

Also, thanks to Tony, I must now figure out how to work the Infinity Unicorn into my D&D campaign...  :o
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LadyWizard

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1186 on: January 02, 2013, 06:44:11 AM »
Unfortunately that's gameguard for you... most korean grindfests actually do have a "bot detect" program you're forced to install and it will disable your game until all "bots" are uninstalled even if it's just a gaming mouse program that COULD macro key.  I heard that's what happened in shaiya and a few others

Xieveral

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1187 on: January 02, 2013, 06:47:03 AM »
They wouldn't be the first gaming company to be discrimatory, Blizzard has banned players for using third party applications and Funcom pretty much told hearing impaired players "That's too bad" when they complained about missions in TSW requiring you to listen for clues in order to progress. They can get away with it too because they can hide behind their TOS and say "Well you agreed to such and such which vaguely states you can't do that and have no right to complain"

I'm guessing companies aren't obligated to make their games handicap-friendly. A handful of people from one game might not get attention but if you can get enough people from various games bringing this to attention it might put the heat on the industry to bring about change.
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mikoroshi

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1188 on: January 02, 2013, 08:01:00 AM »
... Funcom pretty much told hearing impaired players "That's too bad" when they complained about missions in TSW requiring you to listen for clues in order to progress.

As someone with an immediate family history of--and now myself developing--hearing impairment, this ticks me off to no end.  I was going to buy TSW this week after getting paid but I think I may have changed my mind now.
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The Fifth Horseman

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1189 on: January 02, 2013, 09:33:33 AM »
There was this one - apparently handicapped - guy who sued Blizzard for character movement speeds in WoW. IDK how that case turned out, though.
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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1190 on: January 02, 2013, 02:03:26 PM »
I replied a bit in VV's thread over on the other games board but I'll chime in here as well.

Scanning the various "hey I was wrongly banned threads" started on the GW2 forums they fall into several categories, some we are familiar with.

There's the "you locked my character for having a name violation but the game filter let it through during character creation".  Those can be humorous and the arguments familiar.

There's the "I've been (temp) banned for using profanity/racially charged language, why do you have a profanity filter if profanity isn't allowed?"  We've seen these as well in CoH.

There was the ban for using an exploit, excessively, to make money.  Argument there was "you created the bug, why should we pay the price because we found it and abused it?".

Just recently, going along with the Christmas Holidays, a number of people were flagged and banned for e-mailing gifts of either large amounts of in game money or rare items to newly joined friends/relatives.  The RMT detection script flagged these transfers and bands of the sender were issued.

Note that there is a process in place to appeal, the problem is it requires the player to ask for one rather than just rant on how unfair it all is or why the reversal isn't instantaneous but can take days.

And then there's the massive bot ban that started about two-three weeks ago.  And like a massive roll out of automated photo speed enforcement rigs, a number of people who were only using macros in a very minor infraction of the rules were suddenly surprised to find that ANet isn't kidding when they said no means no.  To my knowledge they don't look for macro software or hardware, too easy for professionals to spoof, on the client machine but claim to look at the speed and repetitive nature of commands, movement and powers, as well as repetitive actions and use that information to "guess" if the person on the other end is real or is using automated assistance.  Now since this bot detection tool is new, bans aren't automatic but like traffic tickets from automated cameras, they are looked at by real humans.  However it seems that the large volume has led to apparent rubber stamping in most cases (since we don't know how many false positives are filtered at this stage, for argument sake I'm saying none are) and with the attitude that if they were wrong it'll be sorted it out on appeal (traffic court), sorry for the inconvenience.

Note it's also being suggested that long hours of gameplay without breaks or repeating the same series of event content repeatedly during a game session could also get you on the watch list.  So you could argue that farming content in an area is discouraged.

ANet has made it clear in multiple forum posts that they don't mind gaming mice and keyboards and they don't autodetect them.  What they do say is any macro should consist of one and only one command.  If you are doing more than one, you are juggling nitro so just don't.  Yes this means that it's difficult to multibox the game effectively.

Could someone with a handicap, who is using macro/automation just to be able to play PC games, get caught up in the sweep?   I can easily believe that.  Is ANet targeting them specifically, no.

So which headline is more truthful "Handicapped players caught in ArenaNet's bot sweep" or "ArenaNet is banning handicapped players"?  The second one has a wee bit more negative spin to it.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 02:13:32 PM by FatherXmas »
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Valjean

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1191 on: January 02, 2013, 02:11:08 PM »
Could someone with a handicap, who is using macro/automation just to be able to play PC games, get caught up in the sweep?   I can easily believe that.  Is ANet targeting them specifically, no.

That's what I'm inclined to believe as well. I don't think ANet, or even NCsoft is so callous (or ignorant) as to willfully target the handicapped. But I can believe that folks got swept up during a mass purge. And from what I've heard, they're caught, proving their innocence is harder than it ought to be, no matter how valid the situation. They're probably going to be a fair number of folks who have to deal with wave after wave of CSR's who don't know what they're doing until it's finally resolved.


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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1192 on: January 02, 2013, 02:17:08 PM »
Well it's not like they can send ANet a doctor's note or that there is an online agency that issues virtual handicap placards that game companies can check.
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Nafaustu

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1193 on: January 02, 2013, 10:25:07 PM »
Well it's not like they can send ANet a doctor's note or that there is an online agency that issues virtual handicap placards that game companies can check.

I'm actually not sure if this is sarcasm or not.  :D

As one of those CSR-type folks listed above I'd actually be sort of surprised if they didnt accept (or consider) some kind of credentialed exception.

Beltor

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1194 on: January 02, 2013, 11:16:40 PM »
I have a severe disability that affects my hands. I have trouble using a mouse. Most of that trouble has been remedied when i got a touch screen monitor recently. But before that i'd try to use a program that allowed me to use a flight stick to operate the mouse. It helped a lot but many MMO's would kick me, ban me, or prevent me from logging in if it was running, notably those run by Perfect World Entertainment. One of the reasons i stayed with COH was because the keybind and macro system helped me keep up with other players. GW2 has a good keybind system but no macro system. This isn't a problem for me thanks to my touch screen but without it, i'd have a lot of trouble. The program i use to manipulate the mouse with a flight stick called Joystick2Mouse, looks like it was made for RMT spammers, although i've never used it that way. It's a tricky situation due to spammers and botters. I hate RMTers and botters but also know the trouble of trying to play an MMO that isn't made for some disabilities.

Ask me anything about this and i'd be happy to answer and discuss.

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1195 on: January 03, 2013, 01:47:08 AM »
I'm actually not sure if this is sarcasm or not.  :D

As one of those CSR-type folks listed above I'd actually be sort of surprised if they didnt accept (or consider) some kind of credentialed exception.
Not sarcasm, just how would a game company go about to verify medical credentials?  Internationally?  That's why I pointed out that their might be need of a centralize service that all game companies that face this kind of dilemma could use.  Plus it could allow gamers to get certified ahead of time and have it noted on their account.
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TimtheEnchanter

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1196 on: January 03, 2013, 01:52:40 AM »
They wouldn't be the first gaming company to be discrimatory, Blizzard has banned players for using third party applications and Funcom pretty much told hearing impaired players "That's too bad" when they complained about missions in TSW requiring you to listen for clues in order to progress.

That's pretty pathetic... converting aural cues to visual ones in a video game would be pathetically easy.

Xieveral

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1197 on: January 03, 2013, 02:42:57 AM »
That's pretty pathetic... converting aural cues to visual ones in a video game would be pathetically easy.

They added subtitles for one of the earlier investigation missions involving talking ravens but that mission had complaints from many sides because the birds would speak all at once in most cases so it probably wasn't a fix to accommodate the hearing impaired.

They won't budge on other missions because it "gives things away" or some other nonsense.
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Beltor

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1198 on: January 03, 2013, 09:06:12 AM »
In the US, it's law to make things handicap accessible. GW2 is very adaptable for me specifically and i don't play TSW. I wouldn't say anything anyway. I prefer to adjust things on my end so as not to interfere with others gaming experience. But they'd better be careful. Others would make a 'big' deal out of a "That sux. Sorry" attitude from the management and developers. And NCSoft is finding out what bad PR can do.

mikenovember

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Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
« Reply #1199 on: January 03, 2013, 07:14:10 PM »