Author Topic: A response to NCsoft  (Read 169869 times)

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #420 on: October 12, 2012, 03:58:18 PM »
Why didn't they ever merge some servers?  Or did they?

Because ever since the servers were relocated when Freedom launched, they've been virtualized. So the server hardware required is now directly proportional to the number of people logged into the game in general. The actual number of shards those people are divided onto doesn't make much of a difference.

(This was deduced by a few of us by observing the performance characteristics after they were moved, and was later confirmed in one of the twitch.tv streams when they had on the person who coordinates with the server techs)

Heck, with virtual servers, it's entirely possible that the same physical server might be supporting COH players and GW2 players, reallocating resources as needed.

The only thing merging them would do is very slightly reduce the amount of work it takes to do server maintenance, and possibly reduce OS licensing costs if they're using a support agreement rather than just buying the licenses outright. Putting everybody on one 'server' wouldn't free up any hardware. Given how the COH engine scales rather poorly with the number of players in a zone, it might even make it take up MORE resources than having the players separated.

eabrace

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,291
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #421 on: October 12, 2012, 04:00:36 PM »
Why didn't they ever merge some servers?  Or did they?
They didn't. I think the process of doing so would be pure loss of profit for them the way they have the servers set up.  Specifically, as I'm led to believe, the "servers" (which they refer to as "shards") are not physically separated.  They are just separated by software emulation.  They might have two racks of hardware sitting next to each other and Virtue's Atlas Park and Triumph's Peregrine Island might be running on one while Virtue's Talos Island and Freedom's Port Oakes might be running on the other.  Any consolidation would require moving characters from one database to another in order to eliminate a shard, but since the overall load on the physical servers wouldn't change, they wouldn't be able to squeeze any cost savings out of the consolidation.

They'd be better off letting players pay to transfer characters between shards (money coming in for transfer fees) and not paying someone to handle consolidating databases for shards (money going out.)
Titan Twitter broadcasting at 5.000 mWh and growing.
Titan Facebook

Paragon Wiki admin
I was once being interviewed by Barbara Walters...In between two of the segments she asked me..."But what would you do if the doctor gave you only six months to live?" I said, "Type faster." - Isaac Asimov

Atlantea

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 877
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #422 on: October 12, 2012, 06:43:49 PM »
Huh... that's interesting. I haven't been keeping up with the tech end of things much. I always had the image in my head that each server had it's own "box" or hard drive that it operated from. Maybe that was true in the early days, but not anymore apparently.

(And since I am "tech-geeking" just a bit here, if we follow this tangent much further, we might want to move it to another discussion thread. Just saying. )

One thing I have consistently heard since I started paying attention is that the code for the game is a real tangled patchwork affair. How bad is it to work with? Did that come about because so much has been added to the original Issue 1 release?

Bases for example hardly ever got any love, and I kept hearing rumors that the original person(s) who built that code had left the company and the documentation on the base code was sparse and thus hard to work with.

And of course adding PVP elements to a game that originally didn't have that option had to have done weird things to it.

In fact now that I think about it - I can't recall ever hearing of ANY other MMO that didn't have PVP when it launched and then had it added later! In fact, COH seems to have been unique in not launching with PVP at all! Even Champions, which does not have villains as player characters, has dueling and PVP elements out of the box.

(Just another way CoH is special, even if it was also frustrating at times. *sigh*  You know what they say - we like people for their qualities but we love them for their defects. )

So - just in layman's terms, how difficult is it going to be to reverse engineer this lovable monstrosity? I mean - 23/24 issues of stuff added on to the original engine and all - can you look at it as it appears now? Or do you have to start from the base code and work up? Or work down? Or... heck - not really even sure how to word it really. Sorry!

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #423 on: October 12, 2012, 06:49:01 PM »
Reverse engineered code would ironically probably be cleaner. The reason is that reverse engineering requires not examining existing code at all, but instead looking at end results and attempting to replicate them. Taking CoH as a whole as it is now and building code that duplicates that may well lead to far more organized code than the "organic" mass that the legacy code reputedly is.

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #424 on: October 12, 2012, 07:10:29 PM »
What Segev said. Starting at say, Issue 24, and building something for that would be considerably less work than building something for the state of the game at launch, and 'inventing' all of the additions since then.

Still a ton of work, mind you, but less.

Tannim222

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #425 on: October 12, 2012, 07:52:16 PM »
Another reason for the "mess of code" given in the coffee talks is due to a lack of or very poor documentation on various systems, forcing one or more people to dig into one or more systems to figure something out. Which could result in a large amount of time for a single feature, time that could be used more wisely for one or more features instead.

This is why there was often a request for new tech to implement additional features, because adding the tech could often times be easier than trying to wrangle what you want to happen with the existing tech. I forget who was mentioned, but one dev apparently had a real good handle on the engine and was doing stuff with it many didn't think possible.

I think it was Posi (I could be wrong here) who mentioned how they implemented a new documentation procedure so if someone left, the new person coming in would have something to go back to in order to understand the hows and whys of how a system operated instead of having to dig into it and figure it out all over again. This is something those developing the PlanZ systems should keep in mind, lessons learned from an experienced staff.

eabrace

  • Titan Moderator
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,291
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #426 on: October 12, 2012, 08:38:03 PM »
I think it was Posi (I could be wrong here) who mentioned how they implemented a new documentation procedure so if someone left, the new person coming in would have something to go back to in order to understand the hows and whys of how a system operated instead of having to dig into it and figure it out all over again. This is something those developing the PlanZ systems should keep in mind, lessons learned from an experienced staff.
I could go to town on documentation policy and procedure (one of the two things I do best at work), but I'd probably chase away at least half the people interested in working on Plan Z.  :)

(Anyone I didn't scare off would still hate me.)
Titan Twitter broadcasting at 5.000 mWh and growing.
Titan Facebook

Paragon Wiki admin
I was once being interviewed by Barbara Walters...In between two of the segments she asked me..."But what would you do if the doctor gave you only six months to live?" I said, "Type faster." - Isaac Asimov

Tannim222

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #427 on: October 12, 2012, 09:19:29 PM »
I could probably do that as well. I've plenty of experience in PnP from years of work in health insurance. I've seen what heavy documentation for a small game, such as Mahjong (sp?) looks like. The printed version was thicker than The Stand. But it is very important to have particularly when projects can end up being managed by new hands, or when a project effects multiple teams / departments.

SithRose

  • Plan Z: Lore Lead
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,981
  • The Phoenix is coming.
    • Missing Worlds Media - Plan Z: The Phoenix Project
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #428 on: October 12, 2012, 09:36:46 PM »
I could go to town on documentation policy and procedure (one of the two things I do best at work), but I'd probably chase away at least half the people interested in working on Plan Z.  :)

(Anyone I didn't scare off would still hate me.)

Ahem. If you scare them off by wanting them to document what they're doing...

Were they that useful in the first place? :)
Lore Lead for Plan Z: The Phoenix Project
Secretary of Missing Worlds Media, Inc.

chaparralshrub

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,007
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #429 on: October 13, 2012, 12:21:46 AM »
I could go to town on documentation policy and procedure (one of the two things I do best at work), but I'd probably chase away at least half the people interested in working on Plan Z.  :)

(Anyone I didn't scare off would still hate me.)

You mean document the thought process or document the plan itself?

Unfortunately (or not), it seems like half of the Plan Z volunteers right now are writers. The writers are documenting everything.

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #430 on: October 13, 2012, 12:29:35 AM »
You mean document the thought process or document the plan itself?

Unfortunately (or not), it seems like half of the Plan Z volunteers right now are writers. The writers are documenting everything.
I'm fairly certain he means he would write up the rules for documenting and commenting code, version changes, etc. From how he's talking about how he'd do it, it would be a very rigorous and painstaking standard that he would create.

This would be good for future coders and the like, but painful for those actually working on it and creating it to adhere to.

Victoria Victrix

  • Team Wildcard
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,886
  • If you don't try, you have failed.
    • Mercedes Lackey
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #431 on: October 13, 2012, 12:37:58 AM »
I could go to town on documentation policy and procedure (one of the two things I do best at work), but I'd probably chase away at least half the people interested in working on Plan Z.  :)

(Anyone I didn't scare off would still hate me.)

Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.

Because I was very good at documenting code, mediocre at programming, I actually offered to my former bosses that if they would move me to my very own department of "Code Documentation" I would undertake to do ALL of the documentation from that moment on...and when I wasn't working on programs about to be implemented, would dig in and document the old stuff.  That's the sort of person Plan Z needs.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #432 on: October 13, 2012, 12:47:32 AM »
Are you volunteering, VV? >_> <_<

Victoria Victrix

  • Team Wildcard
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,886
  • If you don't try, you have failed.
    • Mercedes Lackey
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #433 on: October 13, 2012, 12:48:34 AM »
Are you volunteering, VV? >_> <_<

You know, I would, but the only thing I can read is Assembler.  Anything else might as well be Urdu.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Segev

  • Plan Z: Interim Producer
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,573
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #434 on: October 13, 2012, 01:16:56 AM »
Total side-story here, but felt like sharing with all you coders who'll know the pain.

A friend of mine was in a comp sci class taught by a Grad TA who had his own preference for how variables should be named...and it was abysmal. He liked A, B, C, D, X, Y, Z... you know, just plain letters. He didn't necessarily insist that the students do it that way, but he wrote his own sample code that way and insisted that as long as variables are unique it doesn't matter what they're called, shut up you ignorant undergrad.

So my friend, in a fit of pique, made sure that one of his coding assignments worked perfectly so that there could be no marking off for not being able to figure out why it wasn't working. He then did a find/replace on each variable, making them all exactly 7 characters long...and unique combinations of "1" and "l"

The font for their text editor did not differentiate those nearly as well as this forum's font does.

Manga

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 334
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #435 on: October 13, 2012, 01:22:41 AM »
Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.

And documenting another programmer's code is harder than it looks, and highly error-prone.  About half the time, you look at code someone else wrote and think it does one thing, when it actually does something else, or multiple things, or it sets up for another event to happen down the line that you don't know about yet.

I had the "pleasure" of dealing with that recently when I had to repair code for an iOS app that was done by...ahem...several programmers in India.  I'd fix and document one part, it would break something else.  I would fix that, and it would break another thing.  It turned a quick fix project into a several week project, and the person who hired me for the project was not happy.

Victoria Victrix

  • Team Wildcard
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,886
  • If you don't try, you have failed.
    • Mercedes Lackey
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #436 on: October 13, 2012, 01:23:51 AM »
get the reference books out then!

*Looks at the number of projects due and their due-dates.*

*Laughs hysterically.*
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

SithRose

  • Plan Z: Lore Lead
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,981
  • The Phoenix is coming.
    • Missing Worlds Media - Plan Z: The Phoenix Project
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #437 on: October 13, 2012, 01:56:10 AM »
I'm fairly certain he means he would write up the rules for documenting and commenting code, version changes, etc. From how he's talking about how he'd do it, it would be a very rigorous and painstaking standard that he would create.

This would be good for future coders and the like, but painful for those actually working on it and creating it to adhere to.

They can suffer. :) Pain is good for the spirit. And it's in a noble cause. :)

Cry "Document" and let slip the leash of eabrace! (OK, so it's not quite the right meter...)
Lore Lead for Plan Z: The Phoenix Project
Secretary of Missing Worlds Media, Inc.

Moonfyire101

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 296
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #438 on: October 13, 2012, 02:08:05 AM »
Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.

Because I was very good at documenting code, mediocre at programming, I actually offered to my former bosses that if they would move me to my very own department of "Code Documentation" I would undertake to do ALL of the documentation from that moment on...and when I wasn't working on programs about to be implemented, would dig in and document the old stuff.  That's the sort of person Plan Z needs.

Documenting your code is very important on large projects. Especially if multiple people are working on it and if it is a project that needs to be sustainable for years. Programmers come and go and without proper documentaion the new ones are simply gonna be lost. It will be a waste so much time with them trying to figure out what something does when that could have been prevented. Definately need it documented.

Profit

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 237
Re: A response to NCsoft
« Reply #439 on: October 13, 2012, 02:24:02 AM »
So awesome. Buy him a beer for me.

Total side-story here, but felt like sharing with all you coders who'll know the pain.

A friend of mine was in a comp sci class taught by a Grad TA who had his own preference for how variables should be named...and it was abysmal. He liked A, B, C, D, X, Y, Z... you know, just plain letters. He didn't necessarily insist that the students do it that way, but he wrote his own sample code that way and insisted that as long as variables are unique it doesn't matter what they're called, shut up you ignorant undergrad.

So my friend, in a fit of pique, made sure that one of his coding assignments worked perfectly so that there could be no marking off for not being able to figure out why it wasn't working. He then did a find/replace on each variable, making them all exactly 7 characters long...and unique combinations of "1" and "l"

The font for their text editor did not differentiate those nearly as well as this forum's font does.