Perhaps NCSoft is doing us a favor?

[Ironwolf]

I know this is from a purely capitalistic viewpoint, but I do work for a very large corporation and so am familiar with how they work.

If you buy the IP now or attempt to do so while it has not been written off - NCSoft MUST charge a great deal and likely more than it is realistically worth in order to pay the taxes on the capital gains and to lose out on the tax breaks.

If you wait a quarter or at most a tax year the write off will be over and the company will likely be far more open for a sale. Then it may even be up for a fire sale price. I also think other companies may have similar thoughts. You have a proven product that could be restored in a similar vein to those at Good Old Games.

I know from our stand point we are negotiating from a position of weakness. NCSoft holds all the cards and has benefits in NOT selling. Once those are complete - they are at the weaker end and the purchase price goes down. From a business view alone it is in all of our best interest to wait.

Emotionally likely not so much and I really dread December 1st. But taking a step back and looking at the game as a business, this is the wiser course.

[Taceus Jiwede]

I am not 100% so don't quote me on it but I believe TonyV said he has plans to keep talking with NCSoft after the servers go dark and the IP looses value as well.  You make excellent points though I just hope that if we do, lets say, purchase the game a year from now we will still have the player base to fill the servers.  Although I guess the rebirth of City of Heroes would probably be an epic announcement at anytime.

[eabrace]

I am not 100% so don't quote me on it but I believe TonyV said he has plans to keep talking with NCSoft after the servers go dark and the IP looses value as well.

Of course, talking with is entirely different from talking to - or, more accurately, talking at - NCsoft.  In order to talk with them, information has to flow bi-directionally.

[emu265]

I agree.  It is economically valid to wait to buy the IP, because the moment the servers go dark it's value will depreciate faster than a new car.  But this is assuming it's worth the loss in the playerbase, which is something we can't account for with perfect, or even good, accuracy.

[Victoria Victrix]

Well you have two different situations, depending on who is attempting to do the buy out.

Assume that it is formerly-known-as-Paragon.  They need something up and running within days (or a couple weeks at worst) after the servers go dark so they have a cash inflow to keep the new studio going.  Any loss in player base is going to be bad.

Assume that it is...oh, for the sake of argument, Valve.  They can afford to sit back and wait for January 1 as the value of the IP sinks faster than the Hindenburg.  They already have a cash-rich and thriving business, and solid advertising budgets, so they could, conceivably, weather the loss of the player base entirely and just do a cold reboot.

A crowd-funded purchase of the IP would be better off waiting as the value degrades, but would run into a mass quantity of other problems other people have already described far better than I could.

I suppose we will know more after Nov 2, when the gag-orders come off Positron et al, what formerly-known-as-Paragon thinks they can do.

[chaparralshrub]

So, I guess, a hopeful scenario is that Valve buys it in January, the hires what remains of Paragon?

Would be nice, if the folks at Paragon aren't themselves in the dark because they can't pay their electricity bills.

[Victoria Victrix]

So, I guess, a hopeful scenario is that Valve buys it in January, the hires what remains of Paragon?

Would be nice, if the folks at Paragon aren't themselves in the dark because they can't pay their electricity bills.

Amen to that.

This does assume that NCSoft is willing to turn loose at all.  The only case I know of, for sure, where someone tried to pry an IP out of their claws after it was dead was Tabula Rasa.   I have no idea how much of that was pure spite on their part and how much was company policy of never letting go of an IP.

It's a damn shame that this doesn't work the way book contracts do.  Book contracts specify that X amount of time after a book is out of print, the rights to reassign go back to the copyright holder (the author).  This is called "having the rights revert."  If the rights to a game IP were written into contracts to revert, I bet we'd see NCSoft keeping at least one server live...and we'd have somewhere to go while Formerly got a new game together, or Plan Z finally became IP-Z or both.

[TimtheEnchanter]

If I'm reading OP correctly, doesn't that also imply that by fighting, we actually HURT PS's chances at negotiating a sale, by making the demand for the IP more noticable?

[Moonfyire101]

Of course, talking with is entirely different from talking to - or, more accurately, talking at - NCsoft.  In order to talk with them, information has to flow bi-directionally.

undisputable logic is undisputable

[Segev]

Tim, your observation is a genuine concern, however, without more information, keeping active is better than going silent and breaking up, because it is a slim chance that the OP is right. It's not a bad analysis, but it's only one of many possibilities.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Of course, talking with is entirely different from talking to - or, more accurately, talking at - NCsoft.  In order to talk with them, information has to flow bi-directionally.

Lol very valid point

[Victoria Victrix]

OK, now here is something to remember.

We are not the ones negotiating for the sale of the IP.  Short of crowdfunding about 5 mill, we aren't going to be, I don't think. 

Let us assume at this point that someone out there is.  We know that Formerly is.  There might be others.

This forms the classic two-pronged carrot-and-stick, or good-cop bad-cop approach.

While the other party or parties hold out the carrot, we keep beating NCSoftcore with the stick.  The hope being that NCSoftcore will either move away from the stick, or towards the carrot, or both, but at least there will be some movement.

Does that make as much sense to you guys as it does to me? 

[eviella]

It does.  At this point I don't see us having much of a carrot to use; but I think properly applied we have been and can continue to be a far nastier stick than NCSoft ever expected.

I need to spend more time checking things here, I've let myself get distracted by the message last week.  I need to figure out what I can personally contribute to the stick right now...

[darkquill]

The only case I know of, for sure, where someone tried to pry an IP out of their claws after it was dead was Tabula Rasa.   I have no idea how much of that was pure spite on their part and how much was company policy of never letting go of an IP.

NetDevil tried to get the rights to Auto Assault back after NCSoft shut that game down but they "couldn't come to an agreement." Here's the interview where Scott Brown said that:
http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/4745-Auto-Assault-NetDevil-Reacts-to-Closure-Exclusive-Interview-with-Scott-Brown


Here's an interview with Scott Brown about NCSoft's closure of AutoAssault. It talks briefly about the disagreement between the studio and the publisher about keeping the game going with a smaller team vs. shutting down altogether:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/51644

It should be noted that Auto Assault's "Save AA" petition got a few hundred signatures compared to our almost 21,000.

[Victoria Victrix]

NetDevil tried to get the rights to Auto Assault back after NCSoft shut that game down but they "couldn't come to an agreement." Here's the interview where Scott Brown said that:
http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/4745-Auto-Assault-NetDevil-Reacts-to-Closure-Exclusive-Interview-with-Scott-Brown


Here's an interview with Scott Brown about NCSoft's closure of AutoAssault. It talks briefly about the disagreement between the studio and the publisher about keeping the game going with a smaller team vs. shutting down altogether:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/51644

It should be noted that Auto Assault's "Save AA" petition got a few hundred signatures compared to our almost 21,000.

Out of curiosity, did they keep trying to get it after game shutdown, and if so, how long did they keep trying? 

[Knightslayer]

Would be nice, if the folks at Paragon aren't themselves in the dark because they can't pay their electricity bills.

On the bright side, I don't think that'll happen - they are all talented people with good references, and NCSoft itself was helping them get new jobs if what I've heard was correct.
Of course you can also see the downside there... if it takes too long there won't be a "Formerly", they'll all be scattered around the game industry doing new things. (or if we're REALLY lucky someone will pick them up with an eye set on acquiring the IP or filling the void with a spiritual successor, knowing how CoH still managed to stay the number one Super Hero game despite the appearance of younger rivals.)

[Ironwolf]

Yes, please understand I am not saying I want to be out on the street unable to play the game on December 1 or the folks who lost jobs to be out.

I was just pointing out from a strictly business viewpoint why some other investors may be reluctant to approach NCSoft at this point. We are making noise which is good. We show any buyer out there that a strong base still exists. If they buy the game and pop up 2 servers they will have a fairly cheap game to work with and start making some money.

If they actually advertised - they could show how the new City lives again and get some folks on board.

[Atlantea]

Yes, please understand I am not saying I want to be out on the street unable to play the game on December 1 or the folks who lost jobs to be out.

I was just pointing out from a strictly business viewpoint why some other investors may be reluctant to approach NCSoft at this point. We are making noise which is good. We show any buyer out there that a strong base still exists. If they buy the game and pop up 2 servers they will have a fairly cheap game to work with and start making some money.

If they actually advertised - they could show how the new City lives again and get some folks on board.

Don't worry. I don't think anyone is hating on you at all. You make a perfectly valid point and one that needs to be considered.

If we as a community stay together and focussed, even AFTER the servers close, then we prove to any potential buyer/investor that the game IP has value because we'll come back to a revived version of it.

[chaparralshrub]

...

I'm going to say it. I have to. Part of me has been thinking the unthinkable myself, although for very different reasons (namely, I think the Who Will Die story arc was handled very badly, which causes me to worry if the dev team may have been running out of ideas). 

Now go ahead and burn me at the stake. Only part of me believes this, but...

[Ironwolf]

Issue 24 ssays you are wrong on that.

The Who will die arc is in no way worse than the entire Praetorian zone.