Plan Z: The Phoenix Project's response to the Heroes And Villains Project.

[lapucelle]

After discussion in Skype, with both Segev and SithRose agreeing, we've come up with a respectful but generic reply to the situation, suitable for posting in any forum discussion.

With CoH going away, there is a natural desire to try to replace it with something that has something of the same spirit. As of yesterday, there was one project that was working on that goal. As of today, there are now two.

One is Plan Z Studios, which is working in the Titan Forums on the project known as Plan Z: The Phoenix Project. Our working project name was the name selected by open vote. The other is Golden Girl's independent project known as Heroes and Villains.

Her project is not affiliated with Plan Z: The Phoenix Project.  Discussion of her project is not taking place on the Titan Network forums.

Both projects welcome contributors and assistance. It is our hope that there will not be undue confusion as a result of the announcement of Heroes and Villians by Golden Girl.

I wish her the best of luck, as I wish us the best of luck.

Use it in good health.

[SithRose]

Feel free to adjust the days as needed depending on when you post it.

[Aggelakis]

Just FYI, GG is continuing to call her group/herself (AFAIK there is only herself) "Plan Z Studio" and her attempt "Plan Z". She is - classic GG - lording the fact that 'she' suggested them in September so the names are 'hers', so she can continue to confuse things and muddy the waters by calling her project Plan Z instead of Heroes and Villains (which is the name of the frikken website and the logo, so call it that :p ---- sorry, small peeve).

[Segev]

It has been agreed that the words "Plan Z" can be used generically for spiritual successor efforts. Our project is "Plan Z: The Phoenix Project." Her's is "Heroes and Villains." All we need to do is be very clear that we're "Plan Z: The Phoenix Project" and make sure that our efforts and hers are referred to by their proper names.

[Aggelakis]

She's not calling it Heroes and Villains when talking about it, though, regardless of what she's saying to your face (err, name on the screen). Just informing ya. Chatting in-game and on the forums -- and in the mmosite article linked in the original thread -- she's calling it Plan Z, hooks it into the Titan Network (which she has no business doing; there is absolutely nothing on this forum about her effort), and seems to be trying as much as possible to muddy the waters so that people think she's doing the main effort that's been going on for a while.

[lapucelle]

And that's why we have the boilerplate response. Use it where appropriate.

[SithRose]

She's not calling it Heroes and Villains when talking about it, though, regardless of what she's saying to your face (err, name on the screen). Just informing ya. Chatting in-game and on the forums -- and in the mmosite article linked in the original thread -- she's calling it Plan Z, hooks it into the Titan Network (which she has no business doing; there is absolutely nothing on this forum about her effort), and seems to be trying as much as possible to muddy the waters so that people think she's doing the main effort that's been going on for a while.

If she continues to do so, please let us know and we will re-evaluate our response to her actions as necessary.

We're going to do this project. We are going to do it well, and we are going to do it right. We are not going to pull underhanded trickery, and we are going to do our best to make sure that everyone visiting these forums is well aware of the difference between Plan Z: The Phoenix Project (us) and Plan Z: Heroes and Villains (Golden Girl).

[Yellow Gold]

Will "plan Z copywrite 2012 all rights reserved" at the bottom of her websites pages be an issue with us calling ours plan z the phoenix project?

[downix]

Will "plan Z copywrite 2012 all rights reserved" at the bottom of her websites pages be an issue with us calling ours plan z the phoenix project?

Yes, because you can't copyright "Plan Z"

[epawtows]

Yes, because you can't copyright "Plan Z"

But you can copywrite longer phrase "Plan Z: The Phoenix Project", right?  Have we done that?

Or perhaps do another round of votes on a new name?   

[Olantern]

N.b.- As always, this post is not intended to constitute legal advice.

But you can copywrite longer phrase "Plan Z: The Phoenix Project", right?  Have we done that?

Or perhaps do another round of votes on a new name?

Small point of clarification: One cannot copyright (note spelling) a phrase even a longer one like "Plan Z: the Phoenix Project," though a phrase might appear in a copyrighted work.  One can trademark a word or phrase, but only for a specific use in commerce, and the user must "police the mark," i.e., use it in commerce and avoid confusion, possibly through suit.  Copyrighting something does not require registration.  Trademarks are often but not always registered with the Patent and Trademark Office; if a trademark isn't registered, it's harder to prove infringement.

***

The big legal issue here isn't so much the name as potential issues over ownership of IP contributions like background material, such as the name "Titan City."  I don't think there is much in the way of legitimate claims here, but the muddled state of who owns what for many of the early contributions and the lack of an overt legal existence of our operation complicate things.  I invite any of the PZ:PP management team who are concerned about this to send me a PM, and we can discuss it further.

[jacknomind]

Golden Girl's project is almost certainly doomed to failure.  It is actually a ray of hope that I return to these boards and discover that one of our greatest impediments has removed herself.

I hope, however, that she makes something with which she is pleased.  I to some extent admire her.

[TheDevilYouKnow]

I can not state emphatically enough how horrible an idea this split is.

It will take a lot of work and resources to make ONE of these happen. Splitting is almost guaranteed to result in failure to both. This is not acceptable.

I know that TonyV does not want to put in the middle of this, but by virtue of his stature in the SaveCOH campaign, he is. He needs to tell us, the volunteers who want to work on this project which effort he supports and endorses. It is unfortunate, but he and his companions need to make this choice, since it was not possible to get everyone under one umbrella.

I honestly believe that it is vital that we are given one direction to go in. It will take someone of his stature to make the call. It will not bring everyone back, but will certainly bring in all those who just want to get the game up and running.

So examine the tech, the personalities, progress and consult and pick. You have to. I'm sorry, but you have to.

 

[Segev]

Much as I hate to be partisan, in this case it is my duty to be so for Plan Z: The Phoenix Project.

So far as I know, only Golden Girl has moved over to work on her project. She is actively recruiting. If people like the direction she takes with Heroes and Villains, then they are of course free to work with her. Everything any of you have contributed and worked on is still part of Plan Z: The Phoenix Project. I would therefore hope that it has, for the majority or even all of you save Golden Girl, been something on which you wish to continue to work, and that you will thus stay here with us.

I would actively discourage people from turning to TonyV to ask which is "official," because he truly doesn't want to be in that position. To my understanding, he will be working with both projects. I hope this does not overburden him, but it is his time and his choice what to do with it, and we're grateful for all he has done and will do for us. He has, amongst other things, his own project that works in tandem with just about any MMO or community-based game, so he may well be able to work with both by working primarily on that.

Make up your own minds, but Plan Z: The Phoenix Project is the project that you've all come to watch form. Heroes and Villains is a new direction and approach breaking away to try things in Golden Girl's style, feel and design. If you really like what she's doing, therefore, it probably is where you should go. If you like what you've been seeing, however, and were planning to continue contributing to the Plan Z you had been following, this Plan Z: The Phoenix Project is your best home. At least, that's my opinion. I am, obviously, somewhat biased. ^_~

[jacknomind]

I do not expect anyone of technical merit to willingly work with Golden Girl leading.  She is at her best when wielded by a better boss.

[Technerdoc]

Isn't this a little bit childish and stupid what is going on here? Didn't we better try to do this together on one game and not two? I mean... There will be always a loser with things like this, it's hard enough to see a light on the end of a tunnel with a community project anyway, so we better try to stick together with this. What ever happend here, we all have to find one way, this will be better for everyone I think...

[Servantes]

It seems like the time of Jack Emmert again, except this time there isn't a game to fight over, all I know is this will get worse from here onword unless selfish desires are snuffed out, while one could argue competition is a good thing, in this case only negativity will show itself, I would love to see another City of Heroes at almost any cost, but this needs to stop.

[AvatarMaker]

My understanding was that "Plan Z" and "The Phoenix Project" were merely working titles, and that another, stronger name would be chosen when appropriate.  If this is the case, the only conflict that exists is whatever we make of it...

-Sonarr

[Clave_Dark_5]

My understanding was that "Plan Z" and "The Phoenix Project" were merely working titles, and that another, stronger name would be chosen when appropriate.  If this is the case, the only conflict that exists is whatever we make of it...

-Sonarr

I'd go so far as t say that simple labels like "Plan Z", "Titan City" etc. are frippery anyone can come up with, so if we can't use them, that's no loss.  In fact, I'd strongly suggest we get on dropping them ASAP and creating our own to make sure no one confuses our project for hers.  She's taken her ball and gone home, which is ok by me, we don't need her ball to play a game.

[AvatarMaker]

I'd go so far as t say that simple labels like "Plan Z", "Titan City" etc. are frippery anyone can come up with, so if we can't use them, that's no loss.  In fact, I'd strongly suggest we get on dropping them ASAP and creating our own to make sure no one confuses our project for hers.  She's taken her ball and gone home, which is ok by me, we don't need her ball to play a game.

I don't disagree, but, there's no need to rush, either.  I the deadline for making this choice is the point at which actual coding of content begins.  So, sometime between now, and then.  :)

-Sonarr