Plan Z Confusion (and--dun dun duuuun--drama!)

[CatMan]

I agree, which is why I'd like to reiterate:

Focus on positively supporting one project or the other or both, not negatively undermining one project or the other.

This is better than bitter rivalry.  Better, however, would have been for cohesion and cooperation without this division.   
 

[darkgob]

[downix]

My post on the first page of this thread has been retracted.  Please adjust accordingly.
By "demo" I mean something no more complex than a dude walking around a very simple game world and maybe having one attack.  You may label it absurd but this was the stated goal early on.

While did not hit it, we did get a lot further than we would otherwise. It's an old trick, aim beyond your target, so you hit the points you needed, and if you did hit what you aimed at, you're even further ahead.

What we did hit, a working server and the start of the world. Not incredible, but key steps to verifying it was viable. Now my focus is on the demo video, to show these off.

[Zombie Hustler]

I'm not really sure the "Plan Z" designation does either project any particular good, from a non-partisan perspective. It works as TonyV has pointed out, as an "umbrella" designation for the idea of creating a spiritual successor, but I don't see any particular advantage of either group using it in their own project title, particularly as there are already the "H&V" and "PP" designations, which are much more specific and appropriate.

It reminds me of how the revised 3rd edition of D&D gained the working moniker "3.5" throughout its gestation- which the management of WotC said would not be the final designation of the rules; except that it became so, and I can only imagine how weird that must have looked to any newcomers to the game- "Um, should we start with 3.0 first?" *head scratching*.

As a side note, how cool would it be if- one day- we were able to freely jump our characters between the Heroes and Villains world and the Phoenix Project world? Switching servers, entering into a new city with new characters and storylines to pursue. A real shared-world superhero community. (Ah, to dream.)

[chaparralshrub]

Jesus! Who thought we'd have a demo by shutdown? That timeline would be improbable in a true, running game studio! A dedicated staff could maybe have a basic, and I mean basic, trailer or something in the 2 months or so since Plan Z was thought about, but never a simple gaming community. That's absurd!

Well, blackjak, according to plan, there will be a trailer this week, unless something comes up.

My post on the first page of this thread has been retracted.  Please adjust accordingly.

Darkgob I can't tell you how happy I am to see that. I'm really glad that we're not making people unhappy yet!

Burj Khalifa[/url].  After setting it (the computer) on fire.  With my mind.

Gee, that's too bad, because I'd like to program a war game in Brainfuck featuring cute little fluffies fighting it out. And then sell it to a certain company whose name we all curse in our sleep.

What we did hit, a working server and the start of the world. Not incredible, but key steps to verifying it was viable. Now my focus is on the demo video, to show these off.

Quite frankly I'm #$@% impressed that we've made it this far in the roughly two months that we've been doing this. The Phoenix Project is not your average attempt at a fan-made game!

(I can't speak for HaV yet since it in all reality is a few days old and GG is just getting the skeleton of her team together, so I'll give it time and wish it luck)

I'm not really sure the "Plan Z" designation does either project any particular good, from a non-partisan perspective. It works as TonyV has pointed out, as an "umbrella" designation for the idea of creating a spiritual successor, but I don't see any particular advantage of either group using it in their own project title, particularly as there are already the "H&V" and "PP" designations, which are much more specific and appropriate.

Plan Z: The Phoenix Project is a working name. Discussion of its real name are still being kicked around. I agree: having happen to it what happened to 3.5 D&D is not what we want. We are a spiritual successor to CoH, a new game, not the last resort plan for saving CoH.

As a side note, how cool would it be if- one day- we were able to freely jump our characters between the Heroes and Villains world and the Phoenix Project world? Switching servers, entering into a new city with new characters and storylines to pursue. A real shared-world superhero community. (Ah, to dream.)

Not being a member of the tech team for the Phoenix Project, I can't speak for how easy or difficult this might be, but given how Sentinel+ enables extraction of characters from CoH while using its own unique format that can be, from what I understand, legally uploaded into another project, I see no reason why a similar utility couldn't be made for the two Plan Zs. I believe that using Sentinel+ for the Phoenix Project is an idea that's already in the works, in fact. If my not-legal and not-technical understanding is correct, then all that needs to happen is for HaV to do the same.

[Victoria Victrix]

Look, much as I hesitate to bring the grasp of the real world cultivated over 62 years of living on this mudball into this discussion, but here is a simple fact for all of you.

Some people will not get along with other people.

No matter how badly you want Set A of your friends to get along with Set B of your friends, very often that will never happen.  You can sing Kumbaya and link arms and implore for healing hugs all you want, but all you will do is generate far more ill-will than you will soothe.

Take a deep breath, give them the freedom you demand for yourself, and let them go their separate ways. 

Maybe one half will fragment and scatter to the winds.  Maybe both will.  Maybe neither will, and there will be two games out of it.  Maybe TF Hail Mary will actually work, and we'll get Paragon back and some of them will go to work for CoH2.  But the bottom line here is that especially when you are working with people who are volunteering their time, the more you try squeezing incompatible forces together, the more you waste not only your time, but theirs.

[dwturducken]

Well, blackjak, according to plan, there will be a trailer this week, unless something comes up.

Does a team schism count as "something?"

Also, how dare you say #$@% on a family-friendly forum!?

[corvus1970]

Some people will not get along with other people.

Would you please refrain from saying things that make me look for a non-existent "like" button? Thanks!

[sorinkon]

ok all i have an idea if you want i can help get the servers running but you need to make the name of the game different and start a new ip for the game that way ncsoft can sue you and we can all keep the game everyone wins except ncsoft which i dont think many people on these forums including me are happy with them at all anyway

[Mandrake]

Sorry to have been gone for a while but real life gets in the way sometimes as we all know.

The only thing I have to offer here is to consider the following: There is only one team in the end. Having different ones now is only a breeding ground for inspiration of thought and direction.

I don't know how many of you have taken part in something like this. Maybe a lot of you, maybe not many. The point is that any kind of project to emulate or reconstruct the essence of a game world almost always starts out with several ideas of how to go about it. There is almost never a single avenue to start from. How are you going to know exactly the trumps you are going to hit against with any particular system achieving what you want? Team A hits a dead end. Team B is till going strong but is snagging up on some things. Team A comes in with 'Hey we're kinda screwed at this point but we can get you past that snag - we saw that in a different way'. Team A and B start hitting a wall when they find out about a Team C they never knew about that has a whole system almost complete and working, just not as robust or fleshed out. In the end - it is all the same team that worked their butts off to find the best way.

No matter what, know that the entire system will be started, completely trashed and restarted because the database wasn't quite right or codebase wasn't inclusive enough for the scripters to have enough modular controls for world objects, etc. It is going to take time. LOTS of time. We can't keep nagging at the people working on these projects.

Support whatever you like. I'm going to support all of them the best I can. Trying to split hairs and inadvertently (or downright on purpose) split friendships and cohesion is not the answer. We can all maintain community or choose not to. It is a choice. What? If somehow they stay completely independent of the other and are both wildly successful you don't want more servers with more options and more worlds to explore and share you experiences with each other about?

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving last month and Merry Christmas if I end up not getting back in here in time.
Best,
Manny
 

[Victoria Victrix]

ok all i have an idea if you want i can help get the servers running but you need to make the name of the game different and start a new ip for the game that way ncsoft can sue you and we can all keep the game everyone wins except ncsoft which i dont think many people on these forums including me are happy with them at all anyway

Actually, no, that is illegal, and at best it can get you a cease and desist order from NCSoft as well as having your IP ban you for life.  At worst it can get you a lawsuit.

[Nebularian]

I can understand the split. I was much more involved with Plan Z on Titan at its creation, but drifted away for my own reasons. Even then, I could see that Golden Girl had a very specific vision for Plan Z, and was trying very hard to get people to adhere to it. I think it's probably best for someone with such a specific vision to do their own thing, since they won't be able to work very well within a more open project.

I don't believe you are trying to insinuate that Some one taking the lead is a bad thing, but I have to say, from my POV, I see it as a good thing.  I am not that well versed on the inner workings of either group, but I would hope that both have one central leading figure rather than trying to do everything by committee.   One chief to organize all the other indians, so to speak, and keep them on track.

That being said, I don't think the publicity is going very well for either group. Articles like this one: www.incgamers.com/2012/11/community-driven-mmo-project-heroes-and-villains-now-underway/ make things look bad, and make it seem as if Golden Girl is jumping on the marketing for her thing at the expense of Titan's. Additionally, the recruitment for Heroes & Villains is disingenuous. I don't know if anyone else received one, but I got an email directing me to the H&V forums. It said nothing of a split, and only said that it was the successor project, go to the website for info, etc. When I went there, I thought to myself "This doesn't look right..." I came to the Titan forums and discovered there had been a split. The email I received seemed to me very much a way to direct people straight to the H&V forums, skipping Titan completely.

Well, having looked over things that have been said in this thread, I can see that the publicity probably isn't that good.  I have seen what I believe to be people involved with both teams as well as TonyV try to smooth things over and move on...but it seems that there are a lot of people on the side lines that can't seem to get the hint. (Not saying you are one of them, your timely post simply left the door open for me to comment  ) Some people with an axe to grind against one side or the other. Others simply because they cannot believe that people are not doing things exactly as they would like them to.

As to not mentioning Titan.  I do believe TonyV himself has firmly stated that neither of these projects are official Titan Projects. I do not believe that either team will ever try to deny the help they have received, in one form or another, from  Titan, but I do not think it wrong for one, or both (face it, sooner or later it will have to be both) groups to move into their own space and create their own web presence.

[Nebularian]

Would you please refrain from saying things that make me look for a non-existent "like" button? Thanks!

Ditto to you lol

[corvus1970]

Not to derail, but Dylan, were you Mon-El on Virtue?

[Nebularian]

the more you try squeezing incompatible forces together, the more you waste not only your time, but theirs.

wow...that sounds like you are channeling your inner Heinlein.   Well said.

[Nebularian]

Not to derail, but Dylan, were you Mon-El on Virtue?

Nope.   @Nebularian    I've just used this avatar over on my own site for so long I feel naked with out it LOL

And the only "El" I have ever played on COH was my last toon created...Kori Dox-El, based on one of my fan-fic characters.

[avelworldcreator]

Dylan Clearbrook, The Phoenix Project (working name) has a definite leadership structure with experienced management. Other actions have been taken, or are being taken, for legal and financial sustainability.  Its web site is being rapidly constructed by people experienced in the design and programming of the same. Substantial custom code has been written for the final product and more is on the way. Does this meet your criteria for viability so far?

[Nebularian]

Dylan Clearbrook, The Phoenix Project (working name) has a definite leadership structure with experienced management. Other actions have been taken, or are being taken, for legal and financial sustainability.  Its web site is being rapidly constructed by people experienced in the design and programming of the same. Substantial custom code has been written for the final product and more is on the way. Does this meet your criteria for viability so far?

LOL I wasn't griping...just stating my ignorance of how the inner workings of either group are arranged. And I am pleased to hear about the web site.  As I have stated here and elsewhere, I support BOTH efforts.

But actually, it is comforting to know that the Phoenix Project has a definite leadership structure and that the project is not being micro-managed by committee.  That was my fear when talk of Plan Z first began.   Knowing that there is a concrete decision making process that does not rely solely on politicking does wonders to raise my hopes

[Nebularian]

Rather than edit my last post, I just toss this in a new one.

I have neither the skills nor the funds to be helpful to either team.  My thoughts are only my opinions. I am extremely grateful to those that are able to put their time, their money, and their skills to use on these projects and when it gets down to brass tacks, I would not dream of Arm-chair quarterbacking on how and why they do things other than mere speculation.

[avelworldcreator]

Actually I was soliciting opinion. You gave a very considered and objective analysis earlier and it seemed wise to seek more of the same. Someone has to play the games too.