Author Topic: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here  (Read 5273 times)

Segev

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2012, 07:04:31 pm »
I'm sure there was reason other than "whim."

That we have not been told something more understandable and reasonable than we have indicates that the real reason is something that would anger us even more than mere "whim."

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2012, 07:46:02 pm »
Tim, that is a very good point.

But at the same times, those that are doing the warning must have pretty thick skin and not take it personally when someone do not believe them and also get the information across without coming across as a lunatic. It's like going to a store and there is a dude outside saying that particular store is a rip off and you shouldn't buy there. Many will shake their head and go in anyways, some will probably tell him to shut the hell up, some may stop and listen but still go in, some will turn around and go somewhere else, and some might just ignore him like he isnt even there, and some will ask for more information and inquire about it. Now lets say, this guy is at every store every gas station, every movie theater talking about the same store from before and how it's a rip off, would the reaction different even though he has a noble cause in  preventing people from facing the same fate as him? Probably similar. Now suppose he start heckling the people that decide to go in anyways and calling them Big chain store puppets and other names? How would the reaction and  perception change even though the goal and the cause is still noble? The perception probably will be very different and less people will probably even bother listening to what he has to say even though he may be on to something. Food for thought.

Ah, yes, that heckling... the less-lethal version of humanity's urge for warfare against what is different. I'm not aware of much of that kind of thing going on, except for reactions to people who have come down on Titan/SaveCoH with the standard "Get over it, it's just a game" package of insults.

I'm not even sure if the store ripoff is a fair analogy though because of the nature of the product. Stuff you get from Walmart doesn't typically demand years of commitment and hundreds or thousands of dollars. If you get a crappy microwave that breaks in a year, you're not out much of anything besides maybe $100. You can get another one, from a different company, from a different store, and not feel empty due to the loss of the old oven. Nobody out there is going to whine about not being able to find another good microwaving experience.

You're into cars though, so you could draw a better similarity to that. There's a type of product that people are more picky about, and the experience gets factored into the purchase. Let's say your favorite model ends up getting discontinued. But there's nothing to stop you from continuing to drive that car. Even 50 years later, it's possible to hunt down parts, repair/refurbish, and keep those classics running. There's no EULA telling you that you can't modify the car.

To take the store comparison example a bit more closely, perhaps it's just that software hasn't caught up to other forms of business yet. We DO fear physical things breaking too fast, either accidentally or by intentional design (planned obsolescence). This is why more expensive products come with warranties. That's a guarantee that the product will persist for at least X # of years, or you'll be compensated. Nobody has ever thought to do that with software because usually all it takes is a reinstall, even if your computer blows up. And even if you lose your original disc, it costs the company a few cents to send you a new one, or just give you a download link. But MMO's have now changed that, and the life-expectancy of many of the newer ones are becoming hideously short. Perhaps a warranty will soon be needed on software that needs a remote server to function. A promise that the company will support the game for a minimum number of years. That probably won't happen though, because the audience isn't smart enough for that. Not the audience the companies care about anyhow. Their target group is the impulsive tweens who don't bother with long-term planning, and don't even have to manage their own money.

Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2012, 07:46:26 pm »
I'm sure there was reason other than "whim."

That we have not been told something more understandable and reasonable than we have indicates that the real reason is something that would anger us even more than mere "whim."

I can't think of anything that would anger me mor ethn "whim", but unless they give us some reason, and knowing for a fact the game was profitable and econimcally viable, I can't guess anything beyond pure "whim".

The only other alternative I can think of right now is some one losing a bet or a game of darts.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Little Green Frog

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2012, 07:46:48 pm »
It's not impossible, but the reason they never told us the details may be entirely unrelated to how they think the playerbase would react. Off the top of my head they would include legal issues, they may have wanted an influx of cash or it could be what I have witnessed myself a few times while working for various corporations - office politics coming into play.

Okay, come to think of it that last reason would be pretty embarassing and warrant a tight-lip policy.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2012, 08:01:22 pm by Little Green Frog »

Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2012, 07:51:23 pm »
It's not impossible, but the reason they never told us the details may be entirely unrelated to how they think the playerbase would react. Off the top of my head they would include legal issues, they may have wanted an influx of cash or it could be what I have witnessed myself a few times while working for various corporations - an office politics coming into play.

Okay, come to think of it that last reason would be pretty embarassing and warrant a tight-lip policy.

Only, legal reasons to shut down the company are extremely unlikely. For one, at minimum Matt Miller would have been aware of the threat before it came down to closure so he would not have been shocked about the 2 hour notice to clear his desk.

For another, the only legal ties we know about (engine license) has been entirely denied by Jack at Cryptic.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

HarvesterOfEyes

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2012, 07:56:14 pm »
There are any number of compliance or contractual issues that can cause a corporation to clam up. This situation stinks of that, and it's likely that whatever it is they'll never feel safe to admit to it in any detail.

If they are behaving rationally then this was not a decision born of purely business concerns but more likely business concerns distorted by a perverse legal or regulatory issue.

Segev

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #46 on: December 20, 2012, 08:05:20 pm »
There are any number of compliance or contractual issues that can cause a corporation to clam up. This situation stinks of that, and it's likely that whatever it is they'll never feel safe to admit to it in any detail.

If they are behaving rationally then this was not a decision born of purely business concerns but more likely business concerns distorted by a perverse legal or regulatory issue.
I don't know about anybody else, but that would make me madder than "mere whim."

Little Green Frog

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2012, 08:08:02 pm »
Matt Miller wasn't bound to know about every detail related to the operations. Paragon Studios was a company created to keep the game alive (come to think of it, NCsoft once saved CoH, when Cryptic left for greener pastures), but their position was similar to that of a contractor. You pay contractor to do work for you, but you don't tell him what are your business plans. I assume Positron was told just enough to keep the studio going.

Kistulot

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2012, 08:33:32 pm »
(come to think of it, NCsoft once saved CoH, when Cryptic left for greener pastures)

This makes me feel like CoH is in a Mystery Science Theater 3000 situation. Comedy Central canned them, they grabbed onto the Sci Fi Network who switched around their timeslot, interfered with operations, and eventually canned them not for a low viewership but few NEW viewers and that their fans weren't the kind most likely to buy from the commercials.

You could also draw paralells to This Island Earth and Freedom, but it miiiight be a stretch.

MST3k never got a second rebirth, but Cinematic Titanic and Rifftrax are around these days.

I'd like to think we can end up better off (after all, CoH did have Doctor McLargeHuge! Or something similar)  but if not, never lettin the spirit die and ending up with some Zs to feel proud of isn't a bad consolation prize.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2012, 08:34:32 pm »
There are any number of compliance or contractual issues that can cause a corporation to clam up. This situation stinks of that, and it's likely that whatever it is they'll never feel safe to admit to it in any detail.

If they are behaving rationally then this was not a decision born of purely business concerns but more likely business concerns distorted by a perverse legal or regulatory issue.

Well one thing I heard is that NCsoft is particularly paranoid about everything ever since the Tabula Rasa mess. Richard Garriott's lawsuit, from their perspective, came from literally nowhere and without precedence. Metaphorically, after stepping on a landmine like that, they probably get nervous just taking a walk across the lawn now.

Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2012, 08:44:35 pm »
come to think of it, NCsoft once saved CoH, when Cryptic left for greener pastures

That's just a way of telling the story. Cryptic never threatened to cancel City of Heroes, but they did take resources away from it. Had Cryptic faced the opportunity or obligation to keep CoH themselves, it would likely just have seen slowdown in issue release, not unlike what Champions is going through (their dev cycles are sloooow and not very content rich) but it would not see it would have faced cancelation.

That is a big IF, though. It is my understanding (call it pure guess because I have nothing to show) that NCSoft (who owned part of City of Heroes) said: "sell your share or close the shop, we will not sell you our share."

Quote
You pay contractor to do work for you, but you don't tell him what are your business plans. I assume Positron was told just enough to keep the studio going.

If there were ANY legal issues with CoH or Paragon Studios, they would not need to be told anything. The entire process of coming up with necessary documentation and answering odd questions would have hinted at the coming storm. (Seen it happen, you canít hide this stuff from upper management, heck itís VERY hard to hide from HR or IT.)
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2012, 08:47:16 pm »
Well one thing I heard is that NCsoft is particularly paranoid about everything ever since the Tabula Rasa mess. Richard Garriott's lawsuit, from their perspective, came from literally nowhere and without precedence. Metaphorically, after stepping on a landmine like that, they probably get nervous just taking a walk across the lawn now.

Well, no precedent to them I guess. It is very common for someone you defraud out of millions in stock options to sue you back in America.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

Kistulot

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2012, 08:49:16 pm »
That's just a way of telling the story. Cryptic never threatened to cancel City of Heroes, but they did take resources away from it. Had Cryptic faced the opportunity or obligation to keep CoH themselves, it would likely just have seen slowdown in issue release, not unlike what Champions is going through (their dev cycles are sloooow and not very content rich) but it would not see it would have faced cancelation.

One important thing to note about Champions?

This isn't new.

I was in the Closed and Open beta for Champions. Do you know what developers were already being stolen for? STO. Anyone who expected CO to develop past launch to any consistent degree wasn't paying attention, or was just really really hopeful.

TimtheEnchanter

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2012, 08:56:56 pm »
One important thing to note about Champions?

This isn't new.

I was in the Closed and Open beta for Champions. Do you know what developers were already being stolen for? STO. Anyone who expected CO to develop past launch to any consistent degree wasn't paying attention, or was just really really hopeful.

In other words, CO was practically abandoned before it even launched. And yet, ironically, it's still going.

Little Green Frog

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2012, 08:57:16 pm »
If there were ANY legal issues with CoH or Paragon Studios, they would not need to be told anything. The entire process of coming up with necessary documentation and answering odd questions would have hinted at the coming storm. (Seen it happen, you canít hide this stuff from upper management, heck itís VERY hard to hide from HR or IT.)

Not necessarily. NCsoft may have decided they are not going to fight for City of Heroes (8 year old game, changes in business strategy, realignment of western markets ahead, etc.). In such case they wouldn't bother with digging through documents.

Kistulot

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2012, 09:05:01 pm »
In other words, CO was practically abandoned before it even launched. And yet, ironically, it's still going.

It is very early in its life cycle if compared to CoH - and it has received some love. Unfortunately, CO was built from the ground up to be microtrans happy, and that means that a lot of their love is not good love.

GW2 is happy to drop their pay-us-for-keys chests (you can win keys in game too, its just rare as heck) but CO drops them as a majority of your drops! After having some pretty bad ongoing glitches that make some of the game a mess, CO releases... hover tanks! Which may be the ugliest thing I've ever seen.

Unfortunately the design philosophy differences between the games has hurt them a lot imho. While CoH may not have always had as much content as it had before the end, it had a much bigger world that felt much more alive. Why do I want to keep going to military bases in the Desert or Canada, when I could be in Millenium City being... I dunno... a superhero.

To add more to CoH, they just needed to bolt it on. CO is frankly just missing a lot of things - some things that were clamored about since beta. Sigh. This isnt about CO, but it felt worth mentioning all the same!

It is worth pointing out that GW's model of making those stupid pay for key chests is annoying as heck, and makes enemy drops less exciting when you get ten in a night. Of course on CO you'd get 30 a mish if there were enough enem- I'm done!

FatherXmas

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #56 on: December 20, 2012, 09:10:13 pm »
I'm sure there was reason other than "whim."

That we have not been told something more understandable and reasonable than we have indicates that the real reason is something that would anger us even more than mere "whim."
Well my feeling is because it wouldn't/didn't test well in Asia, their primary market.  If you are going to cut back on R&D (which is really what a game studio is from a MBA perspective) spending, they it's only sound to spend it developing products for your primary market.  And when push comes to shove it appears that the Asia marketplace enjoy swords, magic, cute tiny people and PvP style fantasy games rather than one set in a modern environment with spandex clad heroes.  So you spend your limited R&D money developing similar style games that have shown to do well in Asia. 

If NCSoft came out and said they closed Paragon and therefore CoH because Paragon repeatedly didn't show them an MMO idea that could "play in Peoria" (or whatever city in Korea that's analogous to Peoria), I don't believe people's opinion of NCSoft would be any different than it is today.
Tempus unum hominem manet

Starsman

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #57 on: December 20, 2012, 09:13:57 pm »
Not necessarily. NCsoft may have decided they are not going to fight for City of Heroes (8 year old game, changes in business strategy, realignment of western markets ahead, etc.). In such case they wouldn't bother with digging through documents.

A business that closes doors at the first sight of litigation without at minimum first doing proper investigations to see where they stand would not be in business long, given lawsuit threats are something that come up at least once every couple of months to any company that is successful enough.

Not only that: closing down a studio would be heavily unlikely to deter a lawsuit over a game that was in the market for 8 years, unless said lawsuit was only demanding for immediate surrendering of the IP.

We have a higher chance of the sun going supernova tomorrow than they not facing whatever legal matter you assume could show up in the last 5 years of the game.
For the sake of the community: please stop the cultural "research" in your attempt to put blame on the game's cancelation.

It's sickening to see the community sink that low. It's worse to see the community does not get it.

I'm signing off and taking a break, blindly hope things change.

FatherXmas

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2012, 09:15:44 pm »
GW2 is happy to drop their pay-us-for-keys chests (you can win keys in game too, its just rare as heck) but CO drops them as a majority of your drops!
So far the few chests I've open in GW2 with free keys hadn't had anything worth the 115 silver (roughly $1.15) it would cost to buy a bundle of keys in the first place.  I got like 8 chests sitting in my bank and their market value is roughly 2 bronze a piece.  So I think in the long run most players have already figured out it really isn't worth spending any gems/converting gold to gems/spending real cash for gems just to buy keys in GW2.
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Little Green Frog

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Re: Amazon reviews for GW2.... bear with me here
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2012, 09:18:50 pm »
A business that closes doors at the first sight of litigation without at minimum first doing proper investigations to see where they stand would not be in business long, given lawsuit threats are something that come up at least once every couple of months to any company that is successful enough.

Not only that: closing down a studio would be heavily unlikely to deter a lawsuit over a game that was in the market for 8 years, unless said lawsuit was only demanding for immediate surrendering of the IP.

We have a higher chance of the sun going supernova tomorrow than they not facing whatever legal matter you assume could show up in the last 5 years of the game.

That's a lot of assumptions.