well things got complex.

[Floride]

I dont recall anywhere in my posts is screams. As I said, it's just a simple observation that I noticed.

My bad. I gotta stop listening to Judas Priest while I write this stuff. 

Although I do find it strange that back in late 2012 when a person said that these efforts had slim chance of succeeding, it was considered defeatist, being in the league of NCSOFT, NCSOFT shilling, rooting for failure being negative while someone else later says the same thing and it's considered being realistic. I guess that then there were less clear thinking with the mind and more emotion than later when it was said again, thus people was more receptive of it later than earlier when it was fresh. Or, it was more of the problem with who was saying it and not what was said. And since, some people that said it wasn't the most popular folk then, it didn't matter, it was viewed negative. But then a person that is more popular said it, it was more better received. Or a mixture of both.

Agreed.

[JaguarX]

My bad. I gotta stop listening to Judas Priest while I write this stuff. 

LMAO.

[Captain Electric]

Although I do find it strange that back in late 2012 when a person said that these efforts had slim chance of succeeding, it was considered defeatist, being in the league of NCSOFT, NCSOFT shilling, rooting for failure being negative while someone else later says the same thing and it's considered being realistic. I guess that then there were less clear thinking with the mind and more emotion than later when it was said again, thus people was more receptive of it later than earlier when it was fresh. Or, it was more of the problem with who was saying it and not what was said. And since, some people that said it wasn't the most popular folk then, it didn't matter, it was viewed negative. But then a person that is more popular said it, it was more better received. Or a mixture of both.

I can explain this. If you're more of a logical Spock personality, or for people who have autism spectrum differences (there are some here), I can understand the conclusion above. You'll get no judgment from me, but you've gotta understand something.

2012
Most people are Captain Kirks, emotional human beings. Let's say that you are a "General" (a figure of speech here meaning, someone leading the charge). At the beginning of a difficult battle is no time to feed all your troops just the facts, when they aren't really troops with military training, but just MMORPG fans. Because if you do, they will hang their heads. That will be the action and reaction. You will be defeating them before the enemy does. How does this work? For most people, hope is like armor and ammunition. So as a General you want to give your army more armor and ammunition. Speaking just of consumers versus corporations, there are battles that get won this way (read the news much?)--by keeping people motivated with hope. Therefore, the strategy has real actual value. Deep down, most consumers in this position already know their chances are slim. But when you must quickly motivate and mobilize thousands of consumers toward the same goal, in order to take advantage of fleeting windows of opportunity such as the interest of the press, then you must use that time wisely to focus your troops mental states on the goal of winning; not on the likelihood of losing. You don't have to be able to relate to this concept to be able to understand: this is how most people operate.

2013
If you lose the fight, then at the end of the battle, if there are "survivors" left ("survivors" in this case being MMORPG fans who are still ticked off enough to keep fighting), then the Generals may as well give them the facts, but explain to them that the battle is now entrenched. Entrenched battles require different tactics because by now you will have lost most of your "army" after their hope ran out. Effective entrenched troops can survive and fight without much hope, because they are determined. They have no reason not to be realistic, and they accept that the definition of victory will necessarily be different, but have decided that reverse-engineering the servers or creating a better MMORPG than the one they lost are worthwhile targets.

Deep down I always saw myself as an entrenched little trooper. I kept my mouth shut about it. There were times when I tried to get people to shut up and it wasn't because I thought they were wrong. It was because they were broadcasting their realism all over the place and it was causing the "troops" around them to become demotivated and drop out of the fight.

[JaguarX]

I can explain this. If you're more of a logical Spock personality, or for people who have autism spectrum differences (there are some here), I can understand the conclusion above. You'll get no judgment from me, but you've gotta understand something.

2012
Most people are Captain Kirks, emotional human beings. Let's say that you are a "General" (a figure of speech here meaning, someone leading the charge). At the beginning of a difficult battle is no time to feed all your troops just the facts, when they aren't really troops with military training, but just MMORPG fans. Because if you do, they will hang their heads. That will be the action and reaction. You will be defeating them before the enemy does. How does this work? For most people, hope is like armor and ammunition. So as a General you want to give your army more armor and ammunition. Speaking just of consumers versus corporations, there are battles that get won this way (read the news much?)--by keeping people motivated with hope. Therefore, the strategy has real actual value. Deep down, most consumers in this position already know their chances are slim. But when you must quickly motivate and mobilize thousands of consumers toward the same goal, in order to take advantage of fleeting windows of opportunity such as the interest of the press, then you must use that time wisely to focus your troops mental states on the goal of winning; not on the likelihood of losing. You don't have to be able to relate to this concept to be able to understand: this is how most people operate.

2013
If you lose the fight, then at the end of the battle, if there are "survivors" left ("survivors" in this case being MMORPG fans who are still ticked off enough to keep fighting), then the Generals may as well give them the facts, but explain to them that the battle is now entrenched. Entrenched battles require different tactics because by now you will have lost most of your "army" after their hope ran out. Effective entrenched troops can survive and fight without much hope, because they are determined. They have no reason not to be realistic, and they accept that the definition of victory will necessarily be different, but have decided that reverse-engineering the servers or creating a better MMORPG than the one they lost are worthwhile targets.

Deep down I always saw myself as an entrenched little trooper. I kept my mouth shut about it. There were times when I tried to get people to shut up and it wasn't because I thought they were wrong. It was because they were broadcasting their realism all over the place and it was causing the "troops" around them to become demotivated and drop out of the fight.

Indeed. I figured that was the case.

And that is cool.

Remember, we are at war. Soldiers know they will get blown up and get shot at. Sometimes though especially in the beginning, you have to make them feel like they are bad asses and about to go kick some ass. Instead of saying, half of you aint going to make it home even though it may be true.

But even then, if people just happen to come across people they burnt in the passed for speaking the truth maybe they can close that ill feeling at least with an apology of some sort.


Because sometimes even motivation while shutting down realism at the time can come back and bite. Look at the news with the equipment against IED and how many military leader caught lot of flack for not preparing with the right equipment and under estimating. Many have lost their commission, even though if they came out and said it in the beginning, it probably would have demoralized the people that was about to ship out and  set boots on the ground.


And by the way I'm more somewhere between Spock and Kirk. I know it happens, understand why it happens, and no ill feeling for emotions or look at it as odd (Spock), but still like to work out the variables of how does it exist. Like caffeine, most people know it boost mood alertness and understand drink one too many and you may get jittery and that is about as far as their thought go on it. Me, I want to know on the molecular level of how the caffeine interact with mood receptors.

But I do know more than a few Spocks, most are very successful people, and I know more thana few Kirks, and most are very well likeable and could motivate and make a person feel like they are king of the world, although one I think is just emotionally unstable, even the other Kirks look at him odd.

[Kyriani]

I'll be content when the super smart coder people get a private server functional to make the coh client work. I can't express how badly I want this to happen. I check every day hoping for that one magical post that sends me into cartwheels. I only wish I was smart enough to be one of the people to help make it happen faster.

[PSI-on]

You and I are in the same boat.

I'll be content when the super smart coder people get a private server functional to make the coh client work. I can't express how badly I want this to happen. I check every day hoping for that one magical post that sends me into cartwheels. I only wish I was smart enough to be one of the people to help make it happen faster.

[Ohioknight]

You and I are in the same boat.

We are legion

[Dr. Gemini]

Let's look at the timeline.

2005 - Marvel and NCSoft settle lawsuit out of court.

2006 - Marvel and Cryptic announce development of a Marvel MMO.

2007 - NCSoft buys CoH from Cryptic.

2008 - Marvel MMO cancelled, becomes Champions Online.

So, if your theory is true, then NCSoft decided to buy an ailing game knowing that a Marvel MMO will be out in the very near future and said company can shut down their newly acquired IP anytime thereafter. In fact, for your theory to work given the timing of CoH's actual shutdown, it wouldn't even require an MMO on the market, simply in development.

Yeah, that sounds likely. Might want to rethink your theory a bit...well, a lot actually.

[JaguarX]

wasn't COX releases in 2004? And it was NCSOFT as publisher and Cryptic as developer.

2006-2007- NCSOFT buys Cryptic portion and thus gain 100% ownership.

Although in those times, COX was making a lot more money than in the end. About 3 times more IIRC. And the risks were worth it. Or would they have just dumped it while they can back in 2007 knowing Marvel game was on the way. But given the price tag and the average quarterly earnings at the time, in two quarters (half a year) they would have made a profit on their investment and basically decided to play Russian roulette.

[dwturducken]

I'm still in my first cup of coffee, so forgive my fuzziness, here, but didn't CoH actually improve population numbers after Cryptic went off on their own?

[JaguarX]

I'm still in my first cup of coffee, so forgive my fuzziness, here, but didn't CoH actually improve population numbers after Cryptic went off on their own?

Well the population numbers did drop the first quarter then rose slightly after 2Q08 and dropped again 3Q08 for the last reported population stat. But prior the population was already slowly dropping by the quarter, with the income continuing to slip over all but staying in the 5mil per quarter range until 2Q09 where it went from 5,210,432 to 4,574,030 in the 3q09 bottoming out a bit in 1Q10 at 2,939,963 and rising the next two quarters peaking at 4,973,647 in 3Q10 then dropping down to 2,826,623 in 4Q10 and sliding until at least 3Q11 at 2,411,540.


the sub numbers are active subscriptions and thus no telling how many lasped subs there were of people that still considered themselves players but no active sub at the time and later of course, (probably why they stopped reporting the active sub) it got complicated in counting population with f2p with many coming and going and going and coming and paying or not sometimes here and there or in spurts or spurts of not paying for anything.

But rumor of course is that the population bottomed out at about 60,000-80,000 players when it ended and that was a rise since F2P came into play and if that is the case that means somewhere between 3Q08 and Freedom release, the population dropped potentially below even 50,000 players and number like that coming from a peak of 194,000 odd active paying subs, usually doesnt bode well.

[Floride]

But rumor of course is that the population bottomed out at about 60,000-80,000 players when it ended and that was a rise since F2P came into play...

Back in 2004 people perused the shelves at actual stores to buy games. CoH boxes themselves were the only real advertising this game ever received. And 3 months after launch, NC reported 180,000+ subscribers.

If they'd launched CoX today, 60-80,000 subscribers gained solely from clickable boxes on Steam and articles on Kotaku and IGN would be a pancaking miracle.
Supposedly you get what you pay for, and NC never payed a dime for new subscribers, never advertised. Even when it went free-to-play. And the game ended with 50,000 players? That's staggering.

[Ironwolf]

I would imagine if CoH went on Steam and was openly advertised it would easily have 200k+ subs as it is F2P and almost everything is open. If it was given an advertising budget well who knows.

[JaguarX]

Back in 2004 people perused the shelves at actual stores to buy games. CoH boxes themselves were the only real advertising this game ever received. And 3 months after launch, NC reported 180,000+ subscribers.

If they'd launched CoX today, 60-80,000 subscribers gained solely from clickable boxes on Steam and articles on Kotaku and IGN would be a pancaking miracle.
Supposedly you get what you pay for, and NC never payed a dime for new subscribers, never advertised. Even when it went free-to-play. And the game ended with 50,000 players? That's staggering.

yeah, but it also just mean not all player left the building and with being able to throw a rock and hit someone claiming to been there since beta, it could mean not many f2p brand new people was entering or people were leaving and  new f2p players were taking their place
But hell, even 1 brand new player due to F2P is an accomplishment given that there was no advertising. That is testiment to the power of word of mouth. With a little ad buget, it could have made it the ad budget and great profits, or rather greater profits.

for no advertising,

[MWRuger]

I don't care why or how we lost it. Lawsuits, stupid execs, overreaching devs, failing money model, technical obsolescence, spaghetti code, archaic graphics, etc. None of this matters a hill of $hit to me.

I just want my damn game back.

Whoever I gotta pay or kill to make that happen is all I need to know.

_{(Warning! This post is an attempt at HUMOR. People taking it seriously should, like not or something. Go talk a walk or grab a beer or see a movie and try and accept that I don't actually want to kill anyone. But I would bribe someone. Yes. I could do that)}

[JaguarX]

I don't care why or how we lost it. Lawsuits, stupid execs, overreaching devs, failing money model, technical obsolescence, spaghetti code, archaic graphics, etc. None of this matters a hill of $hit to me.

I just want my damn game back.

Whoever I gotta pay or kill to make that happen is all I need to know.

_{(Warning! This post is an attempt at HUMOR. People taking it seriously should, like not or something. Go talk a walk or grab a beer or see a movie and try and accept that I don't actually want to kill anyone. But I would bribe someone. Yes. I could do that)}

Pay me and I'll see what I can do. Like kickstarter, no guarantees, but hey, you'll be helping a good cause and putting money towards an idea. :p

[MWRuger]

Thanks, but I think I'll send TonyV and MWM money instead. Better chance of getting something for it.

But hey, if you can get rep as a contract assassin or ace hacker who jailbreak the IP and server software, let me know.

[JaguarX]

Thanks, but I think I'll send TonyV and MWM money instead. Better chance of getting something for it.

But hey, if you can get rep as a contract assassin or ace hacker who jailbreak the IP and server software, let me know.

lol. alright then. Will do.

[Joshex]

I just want to say that I think it's a pretty dubious standard to consider Joshex's initial post fine while suggesting Kyriani is being the 'Internet Gestapo' for raising doubt about his claims. Now maybe Joshex is correct in his conspiracy theories, but as far as I'm concerned the most likely options are either:
1 - He actually believes these conspiracy theories and tends to over think things to try and fit a conspiracy.
2 - He doesn't believe these things and finds it amusing to muck about with the community.

If 1 is true then I think it's better for Joshex to point out that a lot of these theories really aren't the most likely or realistic thing. Just sitting back and laughing quietly doesn't seem to be a terribly helpful reaction.
If 2 is true then that's pretty cruel given how many people are keen to latch on to any shred of hope about the game. I don't think encouraging others to be led up those rabbitholes is terribly worthwhile even if Joshex is being satirical.

Especially when these things come on the Titan forums I think injecting the occasional dose of skepticism is for the best. I saw the thread a while back where Joshex was talking about people needing to keep their game discs and suggesting that as a way to get their game back. And there were people there taking it as an exciting thing and linking their hope to things Titan has done already.

I hate having to keep my mouth shut about things but till I have all the outcomes of my actions I can't say definite things, I know it leaves the community wondering and i know theres alot of hope built up here for something to work. Yes I have plans, see; instead of sitting here like everyone else and letting myself interest the blue lantern corps with my excessive amount of hope, I find anything I can do to attempt to get the game back, no matter how slim a chance I'll succeed, I've got plans but it's taking a while to get to the actual bottom of this situation.

I'll admit alot of what I come up with is speculation, but it's based on cause and effect and sometimes alot of my own hope. thing is, as a few others have speculated I'm certain most of the shutdown was due to the agreement terms of the settlement between marvel and NCSoft. if I knew those terms I could say more, but until I actually go to court with marvel for this I can only guess every possible option. and before I go to court I need to put together a case and get some time when my lawyer can appear in court over it.

right now that seems like it might not happen for a year or possibly longer because I have things i've got to deal with and honestly have no time to instigate this situation further.

I've come along way from my initial ploy of trying to come up with the perfect claims against NCSoft and sue them for the IP.. that was the original plan a long while ago. yeah it would work, but if there is some sort of legal problem with the IP I suggest fixing that while it's in NCSoft's hands first, otherwise they'll have a claim in court.

thats whats been going on with me of late., to be honest this is one of the least crazy plans I had, the others involved my friends in korea storming NCSoft headquarters mission impossible style and somehow locating the IP stealing that and then randomly uploading the Coh servers and developer utilities to the internet... that would have worked but none of us has a tom cruz to spare.. aka we don't even know where the servers are or the IP documents.

so yeah a lawsuit of epically planned proportions is the best avenue.

[PSI-on]

I wouldn't be surprised if the servers were still here being reused for some other purpose for Molten Games or Wildstar so yeah, that plan wouldn't have worked very well, but I'm really just going to say this:

Wasn't Cryptic and Jack still in charge before the case finished? Wouldn't that mean Jack was privy to the details of the settlement? Both NCSoft and Cryptic were on one side during the case and as I recall that means they were treated like ONE person for settlements and other issues. So why would Jack publicly say at one of the last gaming conventions that we should tell NCSoft to "give him a call" and see about getting the game "back home" if he knew he couldn't do anything with it or that they legally couldn't sell it? He would know, and if this speculation was true what he's reported to have said at the con would garner him very negative publicity to his name if he made a claim he knowingly couldn't deliver, giving up our hopes. I'm not saying he still couldn't do that, just that it doesn't make much sense to me unless there is no such settlement clause.