Author Topic: Game payment options  (Read 8055 times)

Nebularian

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Game payment options
« on: January 09, 2014, 03:13:25 PM »
I don't know if this has been discussed else where, but after experiencing Neverwinter, I thought I would put it out there.

I hope that NONE of the Plan Z projects intend to go with a total F2P model like PWE has (of their games, only CO and STO are different due to contractual agreements going in).

IF you have not tried it, Neverwinter is, in my opinion, a very good game....but one that suffers (again, my opinion) from the F2P model.   While it truly IS Free to Play....it is also clearly a P2W (play to win) game. (oh...you died?  well, just pay x amount of dollars in our zen market and get some life scrolls!!!  Or pay x amount of dollars to get zen to buy a GOOD mount...or a good companion or whatever......because what you get for free is EXTREMELY limited.

As far as I am concerned, the ONLY thing F2P has going for it is that it, for a limited amount of time, gets past my "If I can't play it on my pc offline as well as online, then to hell with it" attitude - the one I developed when NCcrap closed COH!

So....What are the payment options under discussion with the Plan Z projects (and if there are already discussions about this elsewhere, point me towards them)?  I truly hope that they will follow the lead COH had near the end....F2P...but with the VIP subscription option!
(@Nebularian)(AKA Dylan Clearbrook) Champion/Virtue - Nebularian/Sgt. Raines/Nurse Darklight/Cosmicana-Cosmicella/Mercy Vengeance/Angel Sprite/Suzy Uzi/Blue Arc/Dark Carolyne 
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Segev

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 05:25:38 PM »
The plans we have - and none are yet set in stone (we are looking at hiring an accountant to help advise us on how to best structure things) - are for it to be F2P. We also intend to avoid P2W that forces people to spend money to win.

The things sold in the c-store directly, which you will be unable to get without Stars (our real-money-bought currency), will largely be quality of life and personalization and vanity items. We are still debating where precisely the line will be drawn: there might be content or classifications or specializations or the like in the c-store, or there might not; if they are, they won't be "required" things you must have to be able to "win." They are options and more experiences to enjoy. Skins for powers, certain costume pieces, base items that have special looks or are premium collectables...these will be in the c-store.

Enhancements, one-shots, perks and boosts that make you just plain better in gameplay terms? These things will be gatherable through play. In-game currency will buy them from vendors, or they'll be drops or mission rewards.

If you have bad luck or lack the time or other means to acquire these drops and such by doing the missions or hunting the foes that have them, the Auction House will still exist. Those who have extras can put them up for sale there, and you can buy them.

The way we enable true F2P experience for every single thing in the game - even stuff locked in the c-store - is also through the AH. If you are one of those who has extra stuff that you don't need that you wish to sale on the AH, you can sell it for in-game currency...or for Stars. Those Stars come from other players, who either earned them the same way or who bought them from MWM. Thus, players who lack the ability or patience to play hard enough to win sufficient in-game currency to buy it on the AH, or to win the "drops" directly, can spend real money to buy Stars and use those Stars on the AH to buy those items.

They are thus "P2W," but rather than harm the game and devalue other players' efforts by buying what others win "the hard way" from the c-store, the things these players "pay to win" for were earned, by somebody, "the hard way." That somebody is rewarded for his efforts with Stars, which he can use in the c-store.

Thus, those with more money than time can experience "winning" the game by whatever definition they have, and in the process they subsidize the gameplay of those who have more time than money, empowering them to experience the full breadth of the game and everything it has to offer. The money that would be spent on third-party gold trading or paying for leveling up characters - practices which hurt the game and damage the security of participants and open people up to fraud and are thus banned by ToU in most games - instead goes to support the game, and the players all help each other get the most out of it. Meanwhile, the incentive to break secure systems by sharing passwords and account info is diminished because there are legitimate ways to get what everybody wants.

In short, we hope to harness the goals of traditionally problem behaviors to turn them to advantages for all participants in the game. We want the "pay to win" crowd, who will always be around, to empower the "free to play" crowd getting the most out of their gaming experience, and vice-versa.

Again, this is largely up in the air. There are potential issues we need to tackle with professional accounting and possibly tax help. We will test it as extensively as we can to make sure it doesn't have game-breaking unforeseen consequences. And we're aware it will take significant discipline on our part to adhere to the philosophy if keeping it from "forcing" people to pay to win. But I, at least, think this approach will harness and channel player behaviors and turn liabilities into assets for all involved.

Segev

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2014, 05:30:25 PM »
I should add that we're looking at "hybrid subscription" models, as well. These are even more delicate, and the ideas here are harder to describe.

I, personally, like the idea of "microsubscriptions" to go along with "microtransactions." Rather than one or two big subscription packages, have a lot of services to which one can subscribe. All the things that normally separate a VIP subscription account from a freebie account, broken down into various options.

To minimize overload on the customer's end, 1-3 "subscription packages" would be pre-built out of these microsubscriptions, so players can choose between them quickly and easily if they like. They can then customize them by removing microsubscriptions they don't want or adding ones they do. Or they can start with a blank slate and build their own subscription package a la carte from all (and only) the microsubscriptions they want.

But, like I said, this is much more nebulous, so I make zero promises there. This is just where my own headspace on this is as we try to make the best service we can for our players while ensuring the game is self-sufficient.

Minotaur

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2014, 06:45:30 PM »
Having played a lot of neverwinter, I'll outline my experience.

I took a fairly detached look at the game in the beta, and decided to spend some real money at the beginning as the founders pack for $60 gave me a fast mount for each character ($30 worth or so), plus a purple pet for each character ($30 per character worth in theory, although I would never buy that particular pet) and some other stuff. I then spent some more real money on crafting stuff so I could open 9 crafting slots on all my characters.

Since then I've been making enough ADs crafting to buy the rest of what I've needed up until the last sale where they had major reductions on pets and bags and I converted about 2M ADs to zen and bought a whole bunch of stuff which more or less cleared me out. This is something under Segev's model that I will not be able to do in CoT which does somewhat disappoint me as I enjoy crafting more than farming, and it looks like I may be forced into farming to get stuff.

Things I don't like about the way NW do it:

The careful restriction of pets such that you never get a purple non-striker pet for free or with any of the packs, you either have to pay the ludicrous price to upgrade a green or blue free pet or buy a purple one from the store. The only way to get one is basically a year of invoking, I'm 248/360 on that. Also the augmentation pets are either Zen or a lot of ADs.

The mean minded changes to invocation rewards to make people buy wards. Basically you used to get a guaranteed ward (crafting item) for logging on 7 days in a row, now you get them very infrequently and you get other items most of the time, so you are more likely to pay the ludicrous prices in the zen store.

The manipulation of the Zen/AD rate. If the exchange rates drop too low, something really useful is put on sale so it goes back up, ensuring you get better value if you buy Zen then convert to AD, and making it more expensive to convert ADs to Zen. If they give 15% off lockbox keys, the exchange rate will go up around 15%.

It just has the feel of moneygrabbing at every turn, extra storage is very expensive, if they'd put 24 slot bags at say 2000 Zen for all your characters instead of 1000 per character, I'd have bought that months ago, instead I waited till they were 33% off and bought a couple. Same sort of thing with the pets when they were 60% off.





Nebularian

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2014, 07:22:02 PM »
I should add that we're looking at "hybrid subscription" models, as well. These are even more delicate, and the ideas here are harder to describe.


Would that be sorta like what COH did?  F2P   but the option to subscribe for VIP status or something like that?   That I would go for in  heart beat.  After Neverwinter, I don't think I want to deal with a "Zen" store again.

Having played a lot of neverwinter, I'll outline my experience.

Since then I've been making enough ADs crafting to buy the rest of what I've needed up until the last sale where they had major reductions on pets and bags and I converted about 2M ADs to zen and bought a whole bunch of stuff which more or less cleared me out. This is something under Segev's model that I will not be able to do in CoT which does somewhat disappoint me as I enjoy crafting more than farming, and it looks like I may be forced into farming to get stuff.

I was never a big "crafter" in COH.  That aspect of the game never really interested me and I was quite content on purchasing the enhancements from the shops or the market.   In Neverwinter, Astral Diamonds seem to be the same thing.     So what you are saying is, that to avoid spending real money, I have to indulge in a portion of the game that doesn't interest me. (Much like the professions).   At least COH gave me a choice and, unless I was involved in PVP (which I never was), didn't penalize me for not indulging.

While I like the straight game play of Neverwinter, the side aspects don't really interest me.  I think these side aspects are good for those that like that sort of thing, but there should be an option for the rest of us. 

No big deal.  I deleted it from my PC this morning.  Not putting it down, just saying that sort of thing is not for me...and I truly hope that none of the Plan Z projects go that route.
(@Nebularian)(AKA Dylan Clearbrook) Champion/Virtue - Nebularian/Sgt. Raines/Nurse Darklight/Cosmicana-Cosmicella/Mercy Vengeance/Angel Sprite/Suzy Uzi/Blue Arc/Dark Carolyne 
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Segev

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2014, 07:37:00 PM »
Since then I've been making enough ADs crafting to buy the rest of what I've needed up until the last sale where they had major reductions on pets and bags and I converted about 2M ADs to zen and bought a whole bunch of stuff which more or less cleared me out. This is something under Segev's model that I will not be able to do in CoT which does somewhat disappoint me as I enjoy crafting more than farming, and it looks like I may be forced into farming to get stuff.

I wouldn't be too certain you would have to farm for it. I didn't mention crafting because I was trying to be as concise as possible, but ideally (and I again make no promises, as the crafting system is still very much in the planning stages as well), you'll be able to craft things, and trade those on the AH for currency or Stars. Whether crafting is just another way to get drops, or end-usable drops and crafted items are two different categories that require either action in both farming and crafting or use of the AH to trade the results of one for the other, is not determined.

Obviously, some level of farming is likely to be required, if only to get the starter set of basic craft materials, but I hope we can design it to accommodate those who prefer crafting to farming as well as to accommodate those who prefer farming to crafting.

Minotaur

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2014, 12:10:20 PM »
Obviously, some level of farming is likely to be required, if only to get the starter set of basic craft materials, but I hope we can design it to accommodate those who prefer crafting to farming as well as to accommodate those who prefer farming to crafting.

In NW I wasn't required to farm mats, I just played normally with several alts and funneled the crafting mats to the relevant alt, occasionally I bought some mats off the AH if there was a bargain to be had.

Segev

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2014, 02:13:58 PM »
In NW I wasn't required to farm mats, I just played normally with several alts and funneled the crafting mats to the relevant alt, occasionally I bought some mats off the AH if there was a bargain to be had.
I am perhaps over-using the word "farm," then, as the way I meant it was "if you are getting drops, you are farming."

My apologies.

Yes, my point was, you will have to play normally - that is, pursue missions and/or some level of street sweeping - to get your "starter kit" of craft materials. My hope is that, after that point, if you really want to focus on crafting, you can feed the craft machine to at least a significant extent just by crafting and trading on the AH.

Though yes, playing "normally" (by whatever standard one measures "normal" vs. "farming") should be quite sufficient to keep crafters happily crafting.

Second Chances

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 05:26:51 AM »
I should add that we're looking at "hybrid subscription" models, as well. These are even more delicate, and the ideas here are harder to describe.

I am more of a fire-and-forget person, so the option of some form of regular payment would probably make more sense for me (though I can't say for sure before the actual details become more firm). I don't know how common that is, though. The underlying model you described still sounds fine to me, though... so I guess I am mainly talking about the options people will have for how micro they want their payment relationship to the game to be.

Minotaur

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 11:12:11 AM »
I am perhaps over-using the word "farm," then, as the way I meant it was "if you are getting drops, you are farming."

My apologies.

Yes, my point was, you will have to play normally - that is, pursue missions and/or some level of street sweeping - to get your "starter kit" of craft materials. My hope is that, after that point, if you really want to focus on crafting, you can feed the craft machine to at least a significant extent just by crafting and trading on the AH.

Though yes, playing "normally" (by whatever standard one measures "normal" vs. "farming") should be quite sufficient to keep crafters happily crafting.

What I meant by playing normally was levelling several characters 1-max rather than playing my max level characters.

JaguarX

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2014, 12:32:57 AM »
The plans we have - and none are yet set in stone (we are looking at hiring an accountant to help advise us on how to best structure things)...
Sounds good and sounds like a good way to include many group of players and lessen the "haves" vs "have-nots" feeling. Or feeling like one must play one specific part of the game that they may not enjoy, just to enjoy the game and "win" with out a bunch of extra hurdles to jump through to be somewhat competitive simply because they do not enjoy partaking in a specific side part of the game.

Segev

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 01:13:55 PM »
Sounds good and sounds like a good way to include many group of players and lessen the "haves" vs "have-nots" feeling. Or feeling like one must play one specific part of the game that they may not enjoy, just to enjoy the game and "win" with out a bunch of extra hurdles to jump through to be somewhat competitive simply because they do not enjoy partaking in a specific side part of the game.
You've more or less hit the nail on the head with our design goals, here. We want to make the game's economy serve a similar purpose to a real-world one: allow specialization for those players who like one specific aspect and let them use the AH/economy to trade their surplus results from their area of specialization to others who like other aspects to get the "stuff" that are rewards for the parts of the game they don't want to play as much.

Cinnder

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2014, 11:08:40 PM »
Segev, has there been any thought given to whether a subscriber would get Stars as part of a monthly stipend?  And whether there would be any sort of veteran rewards bonus?

I'm one of those players that is far more interested in being a loyal and long-term subscriber, expecting that such loyalty would give me access to pretty much everything in the game without having to spend more on top of the subscription.

Segev

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2014, 02:44:28 AM »
While I can make no promises at this time, I am fairly sure, given the culture from which we come, that we will find ways to make veterans' rewards and long-term subscriptions into rewarding experiences. It is something we definitely WANT to do.

Cinnder

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2014, 08:29:28 AM »
Segev: I thanked you for your reply over on the CoT forum, but figured it couldn't hurt to do it here also, since it was a slightly different question.  Once again, you've addressed my concerns as much as one can reasonably expect at this early stage.  tyvm

Segev

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2014, 01:27:24 PM »
You're quite welcome over here, too. Despite my discomfort elaborating on things where I'm still half-brainstorming and still at least a third working out kinks others find in it, and not even close to "here's the plan," I really do enjoy discussing this stuff.

Honestly, if I can do what I hope to with microsubscriptions, just putting together a "subscription package" that fits your budget and does everything you want it to could be a mini puzzle game in and of itself. (At the same time, the point behind 1-3 "standard" packages will be to give those who don't enjoy such puzzle games the easy, standard "subscribe to get these benefits" experience that is the comfortable norm for hybrid-model subscription/freemium MMOs.)

Cinnder

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2014, 03:17:38 PM »
Yeah, the microsub idea is quite intriguing.  I'll be interested to see what the variants are when you get round to nailing down the details.  I suspect I'll end up getting the package that covers everything, but that will depend on how it's all organised.  Either way, it'll be nice if we can have options on subscriptions beyond just "how many months." 

Segev

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Re: Game payment options
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2014, 05:03:37 PM »
I am fairly sure that one of the "pre-built" packages for subscriptions will be "every microsubscription." That one's pretty easy to make. Just check every box. (Hypothetically.)