Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7300964 times)

hejtmane

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19480 on: September 17, 2015, 07:59:59 PM »
It might come down to what MMOs a person has played and not played.  Some MMOs use a system I tend to call "named buffs."  I think Rift was like this and Guild Wars was like this.  Buffs aren't stackable quantities because they are really more like booleans: you have them or you don't.  You can't stack two of them because they are light switches: on or off.  Some systems even went farther (I think Warhammer was like this) in that there were buff categories, and you could only have the best named buff within each category.

I think SWTOR originally allowed most things to stack, but I think they changed at on the second or third balancing pass.  Eve Online allows stacking, but they (being probably among the most mathematically literate MMO developers I've seen) use what a CoH quant would call multiplicative stacking.  I played both D&D Online and Age of Conan long enough to know both had some form of buff stacking in at least some cases, but not long enough to have figured out the byzantine rules for when it does and doesn't.  And of course coming from Cryptic, CO and STO both have at least some form of buff stacking, STO with more limits than CO (I think: I haven't played CO in forever).  I think DCUO started off with more buff stacking and gradually moved more to binary exclusive buffs.

Even when a game has exclusive (non-stacking) buffs, there's the separate question of how that impacts gameplay.  For example, consider two buffers A and B.  If they both possess buff X and X is non-stacking, then only one of them can really provide that buff: the other one cannot buff the team.  But if buffers A and B both possess a range of buffs, say X, Y, and Z, and X, Y, and Z are all exclusive, it could still be that while the buffs don't stack, the buffers can stack by each providing one of those three buffs to the team.  The problem with stacking comes mainly when two different players (characters) both offer the exact same thing and only one of them can do anything at all.  In other words, even in City of Heroes where almost all buffs (from different casters) stack, two FF defenders can still end up not really stacking with each other in practical terms.  Meanwhile, in another game two identical buffers could stack even if their buffs don't stack, if they have a range of mutually beneficial buffs.

War Hammer had some of the same devs as DAOC so it would not surprise me and yes I played it and it was terrible and I do not remember buffs stacking never played AOC and tried D&D online for a short while left before I started getting to looking at that type stuff.

Rift when it first started would allow a lower buff to overwrite the better buff man talk about the poor standard player getting all type of grief for using a power they thought would help and get chewed on by people because they did not know their attack over wrote his buff and just caused a team dps loss. This was big in raid situations because most the big  bosses are nothing but dps checks with timed movements and a few weird mechanics. They fixed that so the highest buff always stays then they made them pretty much all the same # later.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19481 on: September 17, 2015, 10:06:40 PM »
It spawns a different pseudo-pet depending on the class (minion, lt, boss, AV) of enemy that it's used on. Since it's a pool power, they wanted it not to stack, much like Vengeance doesn't. But it would suck if a boss/AV level buff got overwritten by somebody else's minion level buff, as in replace stacking. It would also suck if you wasted the duration of the new buff because one was already active, as in ignore stacking. Thus: Suppress stacking.

This will sound a bit non-sequitor at first, but this is actually as good a jumping off point as any.  I'm not explicitly replying to Codewalker, just using his statement as a launchpad.  Hold on to your eyeballs, history lesson soapbox Wall-o-text inbound.

If there's one thing I think most proponents of City of Heroes gameplay agreed on, its that City of Heroes offered freedom.  Not unlimited freedom, but exceptional freedom to play in any mode one wanted to.  The gameplay was friendly to soloers.  It was friendly to randomized teams.  And with the invention system, it even became friendly to min/maxers.  That freedom manifested most strongly in the belief that City of Heroes was unlike other comparable games in that it eschewed the notion of "trinity" play.  What's trinity play?  "Trinity" refers to the "holy trinity" of fantasy gaming: the tank, the healer, and the damage (DPS).  The idea is that every player (character) had a role to play on the team, and there were three roles: kill stuff, prevent stuff from attacking everybody else, keep stuff alive.  If you were good at one role you'd be bad at the other roles.  This ensured that everyone *had* a role.  Someone good at two or even three of these things would make everyone else superfluous or redundant.  The design focus was on the *player*, not the *character*.  Players were encouraged to make characters that would serve a purpose on teams; in other words characters were the tools that players used to play the game.

The problem with trinity play in a role playing game is, ironically, role playing.  If the players see their characters not as gameplay tools, like chess pieces, and more like entities that represent them in the game, like avatars, then it can be grating to have the game tell you what you have to make.  For some players, its comforting to know that you have a role that everyone else expects, and if you just do that and everyone else does theirs then things will work out.  For others, its stifling.  But its important to note that trinity play isn't intrinsically stupid, its intended to solve very real gameplay problems.  How do you make sure everyone feels (relatively) equally important to the team's success if *not* to assign them jobs to perform.  And that only works if everyone can't do all the jobs themselves singly.

City of Heroes is known for *not* being focused on trinity-style play.  But *why*?  Is it because the devs felt that trinity play was bad and wanted to try something else?  Actually no.  In fact, its well documented that the original devs believed in trinity play, and actually tried to enforce it in City of Heroes.   The reason why City of Heroes isn't focused on trinity play is because the original devs were absolutely horrible at designing for it.

See, trinity play requires two basic fundamental design rules to be in force.  First, it requires every class (archetype) to be good at one of the trinity roles (tank, damage, buff/heal).  And second, it requires every class to be bad at everything else.  If you're a tank with decent DPS, it doesn't matter if there are better DPS classes: you don't need them.  And when you don't need them, the damage soaking ability you possess to protect them can now be used just to protect yourself.  And with that, you might not need buff/healers anymore either, because there's nothing squishy around you.  The devs *tried* to do this, but failed in two spectacular ways.

First, they did *try* to make a trinity tank.  Tankers have very high damage mitigation and relatively low damage (original launch tankers had damage mods of about 0.6 - significantly lower than they possessed for most of the game at 0.8 ).  The were generally not good at buffing or healing.  However, even this floor of damage was pretty high compared to the damage necessary to kill stuff.  By allowing tankers to enhance their damage to as much as three times the base level, they allowed tankers to grow into damage levels significantly higher than even the DPS classes possessed initially.  True, DPS classes could also do this and be better, but the point of trinity design is not that something else is better, but that something else is *necessary*.  If you have *enough* damage, more damage isn't necessary.  It might be nice, but its not really essential.  Because of this, tankers could easily solo in terms of kill speed.  And when they soloed, because they had such high damage mitigation they didn't need healers or buffers.  It wasn't because they didn't need *healing*, it was because natural regeneration was high enough to substitute for healing.  More on that in a second.

They had more success with their trinity DPS class, blasters.  Blasters really are bad at mitigation and bad at buffing and pretty good at damage.  But the devs made a second mistake.  If tanker damage was good enough, blaster damage was awesome.  Blasters were the literal incarnation of the overpowered mage in game design discussions: blasters could kill so fast neither mitigation nor buff/healing mattered much, at least initially.  Eventually without powerful slotting blasters felt the sting of lacking mitigation and healing - in fact data mining analysis by the devs shows that Blasters performed their trinity role beyond expectations: they were always as a class the most burdened with dying in missions, and most reliant on good teams to keep them functioning correctly.  Ironically, long past the point where the devs abandoned trinity thinking blasters were still hampered by the legacy of this design, all the way up to Issue 24 which was the first *serious* attempt to break them from their trinity past.

And then they pretty much dropped the ball.  Literally by design (this is also well-documented), Scrappers were designed to break the trinity design because Scrappers were originally intended to be good soloers.  Remember in trinity design there's no such thing as a good soloer, because trinity design mandates that everyone is good at one thing and bad at everything else.  A good soloer is a trinity breaker (there are heavy-trinity games that contain good soloers as exceptions, but its still the case they are just that: exceptions).  Scrappers had a good balance between damage and mitigation.  They only lacked buff/heal.  And they didn't need buff/heal because of a design error I mentioned above: in City of Heroes if you had enough mitigation you didn't need healing, because everyone had a good source of self-healing: Regeneration.  City of Heroes implements always on health recovery.  In effect, CoH regeneration is a continuous, always on, never suppressed, works in combat, Heal-Over-Time (HoT).  And its strong: by default base regen recovers full health in 4 minutes.  That's like a heal over time of 5% health every 12 seconds (actually, its exactly like that because that's how regeneration is implemented).  And on top of that City of Heroes offered a relatively easy to acquire power called Health that anyone could get that significantly boosted regeneration: +25%, enhanceable.  It wasn't uncommon to have Scrappers and Tankers with fully slotted Health running around with the equivalent of a HoT of 5% every 7 seconds or so.  That's approaching the strength of many HoT buffs by actual buffers in other games.

That huge amount of "natural" health recovery meant even things that didn't possess true healing like most Scrappers and Tankers could avoid the need for them if their damage mitigation was high enough, simply because their high mitigation meant they didn't take as much damage that needed healing.  Not to mention actual Regeneration scrappers that had health recovery comparable to other MMOs raid monsters.

The devs screwed up with defenders in a different way.  Defenders couldn't necessarily do everything well (corner cases notwithstanding), but what they could often do was buff something else to do everything well.  Empathy defenders could buff almost anyone into basically a high performance Scrapper.  FF defenders could buff a player to have as much if not more mitigation than the average tanker.  If Scrappers were the trinity exception, Defenders were the trinity-busters.  At launch, defenders were seen as difficult to solo, but very quickly they were also seen as the ultimate force multipliers: if you have enough defenders, it doesn't matter what you are - including if you are a defender yourself.  You will be buffed into a trinity-bitch-slapping tank-mage (or if you were a heal/buffer yourself, a tank-mage-cleric).

And then there's controllers.  I've saved the best for last, and I call them the best because even the devs recognized controllers as being the biggest threat to trinity play when the game first launched - they were actually the first archetype targeted for trinity-thinking nerfs.  Controllers are the good and the bad of City of Heroes design rolled into one.  Controllers possessed a megaton of hard mez originally.  A ridiculous amount, in fact.  Only players who played controllers from the start would necessarily know this, but originally Controllers did no damage in many of their mezzes, but they had a lot more mez potential in that their AoE mezzes had far lower recharge.  They could pretty much keep entire spawns of minions, Lts, and Bosses, permanently held for the entire duration of a fight.  Forever, in fact.  They could all but instantly paralyze Archvillains and turn them into punching bags, even better than punching bags because punching bags at least sway side to side a little.  They were more like bowling pins.  The good news for non-trinity play: here was a way to deal with aggro that was fundamentally different from the traditional tank.  The bad news for gameplay in general: it was a ridiculous way to diversify from trinity play because it made basically everything else moot.  You didn't need *anything* if you were fighting inert statues.  You didn't need healing or buffing or aggro control or mitigation or even loads of damage.  Sure, those things would help, in the sense that having a bowling ball that detonated on impact would help score strikes.  But it was wholly gratuitous and unnecessary.  Controllers didn't just break trinity play, they straight up broke the game entirely.

Sure, initially they had low damage, so it could be slow and frustrating to solo a controller.  I once spent fifteen minutes soloing a Jump bot because I ran out of endurance and the only way to keep him from killing me was to just keep Blinding him.  This turned him into a statue unable to attack me while I didn't have enough endurance to do more than nick him occasionally because I needed enough end to keep blinding him.  This was an end of mission boss, mind you.  And then tier 9 pets arrive and with that the missing piece in Controllers' trinity-nullifying grand slam package.  And the devs figured it out pretty quickly.  Controllers were targeted early and often for game balancing.  First they had their AoE hard mez toned down dramatically, increasing recharge all the way up to a base of two minutes.  The (explicitly stated by the devs) idea was that such mez was so powerful it should only be available maybe once a fight (spawn) or once every other fight even (at least for most players).  They didn't want to take it away, but they sort of had to.  And the only option available to them at the time was to make it less available.  They also added damage to non-damaging mez, added containment, and modified pet stacking.  All in all, in a funhouse mirror sort of way, the devs actually turned Controllers into Scrappers: a jack of all trades good at everything class that even included buff/heal.  Its no surprise that Controllers always top the list of most powerful archetype as a whole.

So we didn't get non-trinity play because the game is designed for it, and its not because of unlimited buff stacking or hard mez.  Its actually in spite of those things.  Its really because the devs were too good at making classes good at something, and horrible at making them bad at everything else, and ignoring their own rules in the worst possible design situations.  It wasn't until around Issue 7 that the thinking turned away from trinity design explicitly, and for reasons having nothing to do with Issue 7 itself.  It all has to do with what happened before: City of Villains.

The design team for City of Villains had a bit of a quandary.  They wanted CoV to be not too dissimilar from CoH, because they wanted the game play to be familiar, and also because they had to use the same game engine and wanted to reuse as much material from CoH as possible to reduce development costs.  So one very interesting decision they made was to say that since heroes were build on cooperation (i.e. trinity design), CoV villains would be the opposite of that: they would be designed to be self-sufficient, and work together by choice rather than design.  In effect, villains were all going to be Scrappers.  As a result, while CoH hero archetypes were at least *intended* to be good at one thing and bad at everything else, CoV villains were designed to be good at one thing and at least okay at one or more other things.  Stalkers had good offense and okay defense.  Masterminds had good aggro control and decent offense plus buff/heal.  Dominators had good aggro control (vis-a-vis actual control) and decent offense.  Corruptors had decent offense and buff/heal.  Brutes had good offense and good defense.  They were all designed to run counter to trinity play by design.

Once the devs saw how CoV villains worked, and also took note of the train wreck that was the pseudo-trinity landscape in CoH, they started to change their mindset to new design rules that focused not on trinity play but on cooperative self-sufficiency.  In other words, every class should be able to solo by being good enough at everything, and really good at something.  That way being good enough means they can always solo reasonably well and can always do something on any team, and their specialty means they would be desirable on teams beyond just marginally useful at least some time.  I'm not saying they succeeded at it consistently - stalkers and blasters in particular were troublesome here for different reasons - but its only then that the devs genuinely began to deliberately move away from the trinity mind set.  Until CoV, we were not trinity by coincidence and by error, not by design.  Basically, the bugs in archetype design became features.

But it wasn't buff stacking that was the fortunate error, and it wasn't hard mez.  In fact, abundant hard mez was almost the end of non-trinity play, because it caused the devs to try to reinforce trinity play on the game.  We have what we have because they failed *again* to do trinity right.  But its possible hard mez almost cost us trinity play.  If they had "fixed" hard mez correctly, they might have been able to put the game back on a path to trinity play.  And if they did that, its possible the opening wouldn't have been there for the CoV team to try a different way.  Instead, the game fortunately "routed around" the problems of hard mez.

But the legacy of poor stacking rules haunted the game right up to the end.  Blasters were denied decent mitigation all the way up to I24 because, and I'm speaking from direct experience working with the devs on this, in part the stacking rules made it difficult to hand the blasters something that was good enough to help them and not so good it was easy to abuse by stacking.  Thus, blaster protection via power pools was a non-starter for the entire history of the game.  Because CoH didn't have good ways of limiting stacking, if you wanted to give something a buff but deny it from being overstacked by other things that didn't need it the only real way to do that was to reengineer their actual powersets - something only they have access to.  And that almost literally took an act of God.  It wasn't until I24 that the devs had the green light to make the significant structural changes necessary to even attempt this, after years of small fiddling around that couldn't directly attack the problem.  Namely, that of all the archetypes, Blasters were the only archetype across the entire game that as of I23 was still following Trinity design rules.  Everything else from Defenders to Controllers to Tankers abandoned those rules long before.

None of this would be news to the devs, who were slowly trying to migrate from the shackles of the past.  I24 saw changes to Blasters coming that were a direct attempt to break them from their trinity past.  The incarnate system introduced new mechanics designed to allow the devs to hand powers to the players in a way that everyone would benefit strongly from them, without them becoming too strong in certain hands - judgment blasts being immune to damage buffs is a small example of that, the stack-limited hybrid buffs would be another.  What Codewalker is mentioning above (Codewalker?  did this start off as a reply to Codewalker?  Oh yeah, I think I remember now) is just another example of the devs moving away from its trinity past and its mechanical shackles to provide more benefits to the majority of players.  Where Blasters had to suffer for years without a good way to supplement mitigation through power pools, now the devs were thinking of ways to put very strong powers in the pools in ways that would allow them to still be within the margins of what they wanted power pools to have.  That flexibility doesn't encourage trinity play, it helped to continue to diversify away from it, something the design rules had been slowly evolving away from since 2005.  But whereas originally it happened by accident, now the devs wanted to continue the evolutionary process on purpose.  Overall, I think they were doing a good job there.

The final frontier, in some respects, was hard control.  It would take new tech to make new kinds of mez, but I believe if the game still existed today we'd be there today.  The devs wanted to innovate, and wanted to add more diversity to gameplay to continue the process we'd been on since 2005, where more options equals more ability to give more players more ways to do more things.  There's no way that encourages trinity play.  It continues to encourage the diverse gameplay we already had, and push it into areas where the trinity legacy still existed.  The long shadow of trinity design even extended into the Incarnate trials, where one of the first complaints during testing was that Lambda and BAF heavily deemphasized controllers due to their hard controls being mooted for much of the time.  That's Trinity, resurrected by unbounded hard control like Sauron empowered by the Ring of Power.  Just like the One Ring, unbounded hard control doesn't equal Trinity gameplay, it appears on the surface to be its antidote like the One Ring tempts its wearers with the power to defeat Sauron.  But in reality, it corrupts everything around it until eventually it empowers the thing you thought it would help you defeat.

I wonder how many people read the post through to the end, and how many just skipped to the end and went "wait, was this post a Lord of the Rings post?  WTF happened here?"

Stealth Dart

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19482 on: September 17, 2015, 10:41:17 PM »
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blacksly

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19483 on: September 18, 2015, 12:09:21 AM »
Wait, is this a LOTRO thread now? Did I miss something after the system message:
"Wall of Text hits you for 1556 damage. You have been defeated."

As a side note, I thought that the original trinity was Tank, Mez, Heal... because in the original games where it appeared, there was no in-combat regen, so even low-damage classes like Tank, Mezzer, and Healer could defeat mobs. But you needed a Mezzer to keep adds from coming in, since if I recall correctly, in those situations it was really difficult if not impossible to try to tank/heal 2 or more mobs.

And as another side note, I always wondered if it was really that impossible to play with the mez system just by changing powers rather than changing code. Consider:
1: We shorten the duration of most mezzes, and increase their recharge a bit, so they're harder to use to keep mobs permanently mezzed. Damaging mezzes have their damage adjusted for the new recharge (and endurance costs, also).
2: We introduce debuffs on all of the mezzes, based on the mez. A good portion of the debuffs are made unresistable, so that control powers have a use against AVs. The debuffs would reasonably be as follows, though there are other effects that could be added in:
Mezzes that prevent movement make it easier to hit and damage the target, thus Hold and Immobilize will lower a target's Defense and Resistance
Stuns and Confuses affect the target's targetting, thus giving them a ToHit Debuff effect.
Fears and Sleeps make the target less aggressive, thus giving a -Damage debuff.

Now Controllers can't turn as many mobs into statues for as long, but throwing mezzes into targets is still useful for both defensive and offensive purposes. Mezzing still has a purpose, as do mez-primary ATs, but we don't have the same problem of relatively common hard-mezzing invalidating game content, which causes the Devs to design situation where hard mezzing is deliberately blocked. And it can be done without code changes, as I understand. There are questions as to whether you'd allow the power to self-stack or not. There are even questions about whether you can only be Immobilized so hard, that instead of directly applying a debuff, Immobilize powers instead apply a "You were hit by 3 mags of Immobilize" power, that is allowed to stack only to a limited amount. This would involve creating a new "stack of Immobilize" power that applies a debuff, but it's doable.

So, I really wonder if the Devs inability to change Controllers to have less hard mezzing while still giving mezzing a place was less due to a lack of coding resources, and more to the usual issue: lots of players liked Controllers, and hated the idea of having undergo a major change. I remember the outcry when they lost a huge amount of mezzing ability, and stacked pets, but instead received Containment. In some ways, this was not a bad change, they still had enough mez to function, and gained a lot of damage (except maybe for Fire Controllers). Many players ended up liking the changes. But frankly, those who were playing at the time LIKED their huge mezzing and multiple pets, and tons of them flipped out and complained and complained.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 01:41:51 AM by blacksly »

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19484 on: September 18, 2015, 01:18:00 AM »
Wait, is this a LOTRO thread now? Did I miss something after the system message:
"Wall of Text hits you for 1556 damage. You have been defeated."

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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19485 on: September 18, 2015, 01:31:32 AM »
And as another side note, I always wondered if it was really that impossible to play with the mez system just by changing powers rather than changing code. Consider:
1: We shorten the duration of most mezzes, and increase their recharge a bit, so they're harder to use to keep mobs permanently mezzed. Damaging mezzes have their damage adjusted for the new recharge (and endurance costs, also).
2: We introduce debuffs on all of the mezzes, based on the mez. A good portion of the mezzes are unresistable, so that control powers have a use against AVs. The debuffs would reasonably be as follows, though there are other effects that could be added in:
Mezzes that prevent movement make it easier to hit and damage the target, thus Hold and Immobilize will lower a target's Defense and Resistance
Stuns and Confuses affect the target's targetting, thus giving them a ToHit Debuff effect.
Fears and Sleeps make the target less aggressive, thus giving a -Damage debuff.

Now Controllers can't turn as many mobs into statues for as long, but throwing mezzes into targets is still useful for both defensive and offensive purposes. Mezzing still has a purpose, as do mez-primary ATs, but we don't have the same problem of relatively common hard-mezzing invalidating game content, which causes the Devs to design situation where hard mezzing is deliberately blocked. And it can be done without code changes, as I understand. There are questions as to whether you'd allow the power to self-stack or not. There are even questions about whether you can only be Immobilized so hard, that instead of directly applying a debuff, Immobilize powers instead apply a "You were hit by 3 mags of Immobilize" power, that is allowed to stack only to a limited amount. This would involve creating a new "stack of Immobilize" power that applies a debuff, but it's doable.

So, I really wonder if the Devs inability to change Controllers to have less hard mezzing while still giving mezzing a place was less due to a lack of coding resources, and more to the usual issue: lots of players liked Controllers, and hated the idea of having undergo a major change. I remember the outcry when they lost a huge amount of mezzing ability, and stacked pets, but instead received Containment. In some ways, this was not a bad change, they still had enough mez to function, and gained a lot of damage (except maybe for Fire Controllers). Many players ended up liking the changes. But frankly, those who were playing at the time LIKED their huge mezzing and multiple pets, and tons of them flipped out and complained and complained.

For AoE hard mez, that is what the devs did: increase the recharge so the mez couldn't be used as often.  Its the only option they had.  But that doesn't offer much flexibility in tuning mezzes.  For example, you'd like to give controllers mezzes with short recharge and short duration to deal with minions, because minions die quickly.  If the mez has too long of a recharge its duty cycle is mostly wasted on a minion.  But that same fast-cycling mez when stacked becomes a trivial boss-killer.  There's no easy way to mathematically balance out that situation with binary mez.  But a hypothetical mez that was a) fast cycling but b) broke after a certain number of points of damage would be something that could be tuned to be fast and strong against minions, but less powerful against bosses.  You could even allow such mez to affect AVs and incarnate targets, because in high damage environments they would still work, but expire more quickly.  This kind of dynamic would have allowed the devs to make Controllers more dynamic, more able to use mez more often, while still not turning all combat into statue fights.

Adding debuffs to controls is dangerous because Controllers already have a buff/debuff secondary *and* are in danger of overlapping Defenders.  The combination of debuff secondary effects and a debuff secondary set could have trivialized Defender primary debuffs.  Put it another way: I suggested giving Blasters weak single target mez and debuff in their ranged primaries to grant them extra survivability, and the devs felt actually giving them powerful defensive powers and regeneration was safer.

The problem with binary mez in a nutshell is an intractable problem without new mechanics.  You want mez to descale with team strength.  Instead, it does the opposite: the more damage you have, the more air-tight hard mez becomes.  Unlike even tankers that had a 90% resistance mitigation cap, controllers could mitigate 100% of all damage if targets could be killed within the mez window.  And that makes hard mez very difficult to balance across all content.  We'd like it to mitigate some fraction, even if its a very high fraction, of damage particularly from the most damaging and dangerous foes, while still making it useful against larger numbers of weaker foes.  One requirement necessitates hard mez having long recharge, and the other short recharge (among other things).  Those are thus incompatible design requirements.

Another way of looking at hard mez is that its not proportional.  When we put a 90% resistance power into play, we mitigate 90% of incoming damage.  We let 10% through.  But 10% of a minion's damage is a lot smaller than 10% of an AVs damage.  Its not that resistance is weaker against AVs, its just as strong.  But the proportionality of resistance means the AV's stronger damage causes a proportional leak-through the resistance.  We *say* resistance is equally strong, but we still take more damage from the AV.  When we hold something, we stop 100% of their damage.  That means we take 0%.  0% of a minion is 0% of an AV; its just zero.  So the AV isn't allowed to be "stronger" or "more dangerous" through the mez when its mezzed with hard control.  If the AV was terrorized, things are different.  The AV is still controlled, but it will still "leak" an attack every so often as it is attacked in turn.  And that attack will be unaffected by the terrorize.  So an AV under terrorize is still far more dangerous than a minion under terrorize, even though both might be mechanically suffering in the same way.

Breakable holds can bring some of that proportionality back to hard control, making holds work less like perfect mitigation and more like defense and resistance, just in a mechanically unique way.  And when things work proportionately and allow the game to still function with AVs being more dangerous than Bosses which are more dangerous than minions, you can allow the players to have more of it, and to use it more often.  So they can spam it on minions and make them go away just like most tanks can ignore those minions because their attacks just tickle.  But then just as tanks have to be careful when drawing the full aggro of an AV, so a controller would have to be careful deploying their breakable mezzes on that AV who will, of course, eventually break them and require the controller to constantly reapply them if they want to maintain control.

blacksly

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19486 on: September 18, 2015, 01:57:59 AM »
Adding debuffs to controls is dangerous because Controllers already have a buff/debuff secondary *and* are in danger of overlapping Defenders.  The combination of debuff secondary effects and a debuff secondary set could have trivialized Defender primary debuffs. 

That's actually exactly why I built that debuff suggestion the exact way that I did it. Because if mobs were Stunned or Confused, in any case, they wouldn't be attacking you. So trading off some of that mez duration for a -ToHit doesn't really strengthen the Controller's ability to defend, even though it does shift it in style from mezzing to debuffing. So it could be argued that it does work in a way that may make Defenders jealous, but in gameplay it wouldn't be the same as just having strong debuffs than Defenders, except against AVs. And for AVs, we can make only a small portion of the mez-debuff unresistable.

The same is true for Fear, and the only mez where we're really adding useful debuffing is to Sleeps, which I think would not be a major balance issue. The debuffs from Hold and Immobilize are offensive in nature, thus while they're nice to have, they're not relevant to the question of how mezzing, and converting some of that mezzing to debuffing, shuts down mobs.

It can be said that the concept of Controllers is to control mobs, but that wouldn't really be affected... we're just changing the definition of what a control is. A 20-second Immobilize that prevents a target from moving, and applies Containment for 20 seconds, might now be a power that prevents a target from moving for 10 seconds and thus sets up Containment, but also hampers the target's movement thus making it easier to hit/damage, for 20 seconds (including the first 10 seconds of not being able to move). It's still a control power rather than a debuff power. For example, dedicated Defender debuffs are around 30% for -Resist, and we could have Immobs/Holds limit to 15% or so, and just in the same way that Cosmic Burst is first a damage power and second a control power, the Controller powers remain primarily controls and only secondarily debuffs.

Yes, it might mean that a Controller ends up putting out more debuff of a particular type than a Defender with the same buff/debuff set. But the gain is that we're lowering the ability to hard-control mobs, which allows mobs to use their improved stats. As you say, the problem with a hard control is that an AV that is hard-controlled is the same as a minion. But if we limit hard control more and turn some of it to debuffing, then that AV is a lot more dangerous than a minion when we're into the debuff portion of the mez, which is exactly what we want. So the price of complaints about "too much debuffing" is worth it, IMO.

Also, a Defender can still put out way more -Resist regardless of any -Resist that we give to Holds/Immobs, via the Sonic Blast set. Or -ToHit via the Dark Blast set. While they would be more limited to really having only one kind of debuff usually, depending on their blast set, they would put out a lot more of that debuff than a Controller's mez-related debuffs. So while I see Defenders as complaining, I don't think it would be all that furious.

Tubbius

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19487 on: September 18, 2015, 02:44:26 AM »
I read the Arcana wall of text!

And all I got was this darn post.

Sounds like a t-shirt :)

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19488 on: September 18, 2015, 02:50:42 AM »
That's actually exactly why I built that debuff suggestion the exact way that I did it. Because if mobs were Stunned or Confused, in any case, they wouldn't be attacking you. So trading off some of that mez duration for a -ToHit doesn't really strengthen the Controller's ability to defend, even though it does shift it in style from mezzing to debuffing. So it could be argued that it does work in a way that may make Defenders jealous, but in gameplay it wouldn't be the same as just having strong debuffs than Defenders, except against AVs. And for AVs, we can make only a small portion of the mez-debuff unresistable.

That doesn't work with standard CoH mechanics because there's no way to trigger the debuff based on mez magnitude.  To put it more simply, suppose we have a boss that requires mag 4 to hold.  If the controller hits it with a mag 3 hold the boss isn't held yet: you need to stack more hold magnitude.  But the debuff within the hold would take effect immediately whether the target is held or not (there are ways to do that in theory, but none of them would have worked until relatively near the end of the game's lifetime).  You're seeing this as a hold that degrades into a debuff, but in practice its also a debuff that sometimes escalates into a hold.

On top of that, you're presuming that trading balancing binary mez for balancing stackable debuffs is a good trade: its not because debuff stacking is incredibly hard to balance as well, because of that other problem I mentioned regarding how CoH stacks things.  What's the correct -tohit to give to a hold?  -7.5%?  Compared to a hold that's trivial.  But if you make it too high, that debuff could stack with other debuffs very quickly and escalate into superstrong debuffing.

This idea of combining debuffs with mez isn't new: I came up with the idea back around I3 or I4, but with a caveat that it only worked in the "light" case where you were trying to manufacture very light mez-like effects with debuffs.  Trying to make strong effects in this way fell apart quickly for a wide spectrum of problems.  One of the most important was that back around the time periods we were talking about, the devs were very concerned about debuff stacking.  So much so that it was during this period of time, somewhere around I5 I believe, that tohit debuff enhancements were moved from schedule A to schedule B, specifically to tone them down.  And just like with binary mez, the big problem came down to the fact that weak tohit debuff was trivial, strong tohit debuff was overpowered, and it was extremely difficult to build the game in the middle when the players could shift numbers around by a factor of 2 or more with enhancements.  They wouldn't even *talk* about using stackable debuffs to do anything overly creative for almost a dozen issues.  When you have Dark Defenders talking about tanking the whole game with tohit debuff and little else, and it actually turns out to be true, the wheels have come off the wagon entirely.

The whole nature of tohit buff, tohit debuff, defense buff, and defense debuff, and how the devs tried (and usually failed) to find reasonable moderate values for any of them is a separate very long story.

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19489 on: September 18, 2015, 04:17:58 AM »
I played both D&D Online and Age of Conan long enough to know both had some form of buff stacking in at least some cases, but not long enough to have figured out the byzantine rules for when it does and doesn't.
In the case of D&D Online if it's based on the 3.x rules buffs have a somewhat arbitrary array of types that determine stacking. Buffs of the same type do not stack and buffs of different types do stack. Bards and Clerics have Bardic Music and Blessing, respectively, which don't stack because they are both morale buffs. However, those buffs stack with Haste because it's a different type of buff. It's entertaining for me just because it sometimes gives our DM a headache trying to figure what should stack since not every spell or effect clearly describes what category of buff it is. Also, much like the examples you gave of some other MMOs, Bardic Music and Blessing aren't completely redundant because there are non-overlapping attributes that each buffs.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19490 on: September 18, 2015, 04:34:59 AM »
The whole nature of tohit buff, tohit debuff, defense buff, and defense debuff, and how the devs tried (and usually failed) to find reasonable moderate values for any of them is a separate very long story.

Considering the continuing glacial-like status of the first post in this thread, plus the fact that we're now at 1-1/2 years and almost 20,000 replies later, it seems we might have the time for a very long story... a skycraper of text?

hejtmane

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19491 on: September 18, 2015, 06:41:08 AM »
I read Arcana wall of text and I had flash backs when she said the original design team was bad at design. Then I have flash backs to the great HO nerf (before IO's) when that was the only thing outside of SO's. Then the it hit the forms of course the arguments, rants and finally I think it was Jack that posted stated we never intended or expected people to farm HO.

I was like what did you not learn anything from the games before you UO, Everquest,DAOC etc etc I mean come on we had farm spots for specific drops back in those games. No he never answered that question

Arcana's post just reaffirmed my early years of COH and some of the crazy decisions.

On Blasters the funniest thing to ever watch in the early days was a blaster with their tier 9 paboe and 6 slotted damage during a dumpster dive. Yes that is right early days no aoe limit, 6 slotted damage with no ED hundreds of dead freakshows in about 5 seconds.














Nightmarer

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19492 on: September 18, 2015, 11:57:50 AM »
OK, taking into consideration everything, I think it is obvious how panaking pancake L.A. Lakers were by leting Gasol go as demonstrated on last night's game against France (who lost the game, in case there is anyone here from France who did not know).

>.>
<.<

What? I totally HAD to do it...

Did I mention we won?

And did I mention France lost?

blacksly

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19493 on: September 18, 2015, 11:58:46 AM »
That doesn't work with standard CoH mechanics because there's no way to trigger the debuff based on mez magnitude.  To put it more simply, suppose we have a boss that requires mag 4 to hold.  If the controller hits it with a mag 3 hold the boss isn't held yet: you need to stack more hold magnitude.  But the debuff within the hold would take effect immediately whether the target is held or not (there are ways to do that in theory, but none of them would have worked until relatively near the end of the game's lifetime).  You're seeing this as a hold that degrades into a debuff, but in practice its also a debuff that sometimes escalates into a hold.

On top of that, you're presuming that trading balancing binary mez for balancing stackable debuffs is a good trade: its not because debuff stacking is incredibly hard to balance as well, because of that other problem I mentioned regarding how CoH stacks things.  What's the correct -tohit to give to a hold?  -7.5%?  Compared to a hold that's trivial.  But if you make it too high, that debuff could stack with other debuffs very quickly and escalate into superstrong debuffing.

I do think that just as other powers have different effects based on the target's type, it should be possible to set up the debuff so that if we say that the max -Resist value of being Held is -15%, then a Mag 2 Hold fired at a minion is set up to give -15% Resist, while one fired at a Boss only gives -7.5%. In fact, I think it's possible to handle it with the same mechanism that would be used to handle stacking: instead of giving a flat -Resist debuff, have the hold instead give one stack of a "you are held" self-debuff power to the target. Say that each stack represents 1 Mag, and determine how much of the maximum debuff would 1 Mag mean for each target. For a minion, it would be 1/2, for a Lt 1/3, etc, and have each stack debuff the owner by the maximum debuff times the fraction. So I'm not terribly worried about the target-type issue. Well, at least not now, though I don't recall how long ago did the mechanism for stacking powers appear. And there would be issues with using it upon mobs that have status protection (such as Animate Stone being affected at full strength by a Hold's debuff, while not being close to being Held).

As for superstrong debuffing... on offense, my plan limits the -Resist from a target being Held or Immobilized. Say, 15% or 20%. While that's a nice boost to offense, it's not nearly as game-breaking as stacking -Resist from multiple debuffers, because the stacked self-debuffs would not stack higher just because an additional character is helping to keep the stack maxed out. -Defense is really just a diversion. -ToHit and -Damage are useful, but since they're also limited, they're limited to about the effect of a single Fearsome Stare, or less than Radiation Infection. And if we're talking about Bosses or lower, they would have been mezzed anyhow and be even less dangerous, in most cases, during the debuff portion of the new-style mez, without any changes.

Basically, I understand the problem with allowing stacking debuffs, but it already exists in the game, and I'm limiting it by using stack debuffs which can be given a stack limit, rather than free debuffs directly from the mezzing power, which would be allowed to stack freely.

I wouldn't bother to argue that this is a perfect solution to the Dev's problems with hard mezzing. As you've said, I doubt there is any such thing. But I think that it's a better solution than what we have now, where the Devs basically have to block Controllers from controlling in order to create some high-level content.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19494 on: September 18, 2015, 01:52:27 PM »
My first character was a Fire/Fire blaster.

I had the first Fire/Fire to the level cap at 40 on the Champion server. At that point minions and Lts. had no mez powers, only bosses did. Freakshow and a few other groups also had a bug making them weaker to fire damage than they should be.

This made my Fire/Fire blaster when in a full team a complete engine of destruction in issues 1-3. I would get tells immediately on logging in and would get asked repeatedly to come help with AVs over and over again. The game we love was a happy accident. I can only imagine how the entire world of MMO's would have changed if CoH had been built around the CoV template from the start.

I played CoH differently than a lot of others - I would study the power sets and then try and find synergies. Once I had the idea I would test it - I once had someone watch me on my fire/fire tank soloing in Brickstown running durability tests with different foes and different powers. The person was a defender who tried to help me by adding buffs as I tested - I asked them politely to please not help me as I was testing. They got offended at first until I explained I was running durability tests.

Doing things like testing which is more effective Heal Self or Tough on a Fire/Fire tank? Building things like the Sonic/Ice blaster made to tank. It was fun to do the Purple Crystal mission ambushes solo on the ITF on speed runs. Each player would take a crystal - all attack at the same time and finish the mission in 30-45 seconds. It was fun as a blaster to be able to survive these solo. To tank Recluse on the STF when the tank died - I only lasted 30-45 seconds but this was with all 4 towers up and the team had time to tp the tank - rez him and get him back before I died. After that I stayed with the tank and the 2 of us kept him from ever hurting anyone else on the team.

This is what I liked about the game - studying ai behavior, studying power effect on different foes. Learning to herd after the 17 caps limit and having the conga line of death where you just keep moving in a rapid circle taunting and punchvoking 3 or 4 groups breaking the rules of tanking.

Basically finding ways to break the game. Like the old bee spawn in Creys setting fireball on a blaster on auto before they had forced logoff and overnight gain 3 of 4 levels nuking bees. We also used prior to the Purple Patch take our entire SG to Founder's Falls and attack enemies 15-20 levels higher than we were. You could kill one large group and level 3 or 4 levels at once. When a game is made some players try to find the ways to exploit if you want to use that term or to use unintended side effects, I was one of those trying to learn the rules and how to exceed them.

This is what made the game so much fun to so many players the differing ways to play it.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19495 on: September 18, 2015, 06:56:09 PM »
I do think that just as other powers have different effects based on the target's type, it should be possible to set up the debuff so that if we say that the max -Resist value of being Held is -15%, then a Mag 2 Hold fired at a minion is set up to give -15% Resist, while one fired at a Boss only gives -7.5%. In fact, I think it's possible to handle it with the same mechanism that would be used to handle stacking: instead of giving a flat -Resist debuff, have the hold instead give one stack of a "you are held" self-debuff power to the target. Say that each stack represents 1 Mag, and determine how much of the maximum debuff would 1 Mag mean for each target. For a minion, it would be 1/2, for a Lt 1/3, etc, and have each stack debuff the owner by the maximum debuff times the fraction. So I'm not terribly worried about the target-type issue. Well, at least not now, though I don't recall how long ago did the mechanism for stacking powers appear. And there would be issues with using it upon mobs that have status protection (such as Animate Stone being affected at full strength by a Hold's debuff, while not being close to being Held).

If I understand what you're saying, yes its possible in theory but the problem is not setting values but picking the right values to make it work, and there is always a presumption that there exists a "right number" and the only question is to find it.  That's not always true.  For example, in the case of the original defense mechanics, there was no "right" tohit debuff strength for anything because of the way defense worked.  Every value you picked would always be extremely wrong for a large subset of cases.  There are other technical issues: I think you're talking about a grant power based mechanism, but the devs were reluctant to propagate those because the game had limits on how fast it could do that.  If they put too much of it into the game they could cause mapserver crashes.  Putting it into every single mez power would probably do it.

Quote
I wouldn't bother to argue that this is a perfect solution to the Dev's problems with hard mezzing. As you've said, I doubt there is any such thing. But I think that it's a better solution than what we have now, where the Devs basically have to block Controllers from controlling in order to create some high-level content.

If we're talking about the early history of the game, these types of solutions wouldn't work for a variety of reasons I outlined.  You could argue they'd be better than nothing, but in the early stages of the game I'm not sure that's true because of the skill level of the devs at the time.  Remember they spent a lot of time fiddling with defense and tohit numbers back then in ways mathematically guaranteed not to work.  If we're talking about the late game, these types of solutions would lock you into bad solutions it would be difficult to undo because players would get used to them.  It might be better than nothing but the better solution that was available then would be to introduce new tech that worked in better ways, an option that didn't really exist in the early game.  Something like putting pervasive debuff into all mez powers is something that would have taken very long for the devs to formulate, all for a system that didn't work very well and would cause further balancing problems that would sap even more developer time to fix.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19496 on: September 18, 2015, 07:08:33 PM »
Arcana's post just reaffirmed my early years of COH and some of the crazy decisions.

I should point out that many of their decisions seem strange or crazy in retrospect, and many were provably bad even at the time, but even though I used to pound on them all the time for making obvious numerical errors, obvious design errors, obvious changes in conflict with their own stated goals, and obvious illogical errors in thinking, its also true that its not like the player base itself was consistently right about what the devs got wrong or why.  For every player I read who thought the devs were completely wrong, it usually took very little time for them to reveal how they would change the game was far worse to me than what they were trying to fix.

Which is to say, while there were many things I think the devs did wrong (and I never stopped pointing them out every time they happened) I can also say I cannot recall a single player in who's hands I would have rather the game been in.  Which is to say, there might have been players that could do better, but none of them posted manifestos on how they would make the game better.  Those that did, tended to be either vague enough for me to conclude they weren't actually sure how to get there, or specific enough to be frightening.

This stuff is easy in retrospect, and its easy when you don't actually have to connect all the dots, but its actually not a trivial thing to make all the pieces work together in the right way.  I think the devs were mostly in over their heads to start, but they did get better over time.  If anything, I think the devs had too many preconceived notions about what they could and could not get away with, rather than straight up not knowing what's going on.  Its rare you have the time and resources to make perfect solutions, so a good designer always has to know when they can compromise and get a good enough solution that isn't perfect but mostly gets the job done.  The devs originally had no good judgment about what was a good enough solution for most of the game mechanics they were working with.

The devs were wrong a lot, but the players were wrong far more often.  However, the devs were the ones collecting a paycheck and mucking with my game, not the players, so I tended to complain about them more.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19497 on: September 18, 2015, 07:16:57 PM »
Considering the continuing glacial-like status of the first post in this thread, plus the fact that we're now at 1-1/2 years and almost 20,000 replies later, it seems we might have the time for a very long story... a skycraper of text?

I don't know if the forums will allow a single post that long.  That story starts in beta, before I even came along, runs through the Confessor, Amauros, Havok, Circeus, and me; hits smoke grenade, SR tweaks, archetype modifiers, power pools, and typing; grazes by Dark Melee and inspirations; has major ports of call in I7, I9, I14, and I18; and covers a gamut of strange things like why the DE hate defense, how did Elusivity sneak into the game, why designing games in Excel is not a good idea, in what way is defense like regeneration, and why isn't debuff avoidance the same thing as debuff resistance.

Among many long stories, its the long story.

Shibboleth

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19498 on: September 18, 2015, 08:51:30 PM »
Advocating for changes was something I did far more rarely than advocating against changes.

"Nope, no changes" drove me from the game for years as I was not fond of extensive testing and documenting being dismissed as a lie and there needing to be three explanations for a change because each previous explanation was shown not to be true (or evasive wording designed to imply something other than was the case--"all powers of form X, Y, and Z were changed" when only one power fit that form and so the initial claim of a nerf to the power was in fact true).


Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #19499 on: September 18, 2015, 09:40:29 PM »
Advocating for changes was something I did far more rarely than advocating against changes.

"Nope, no changes" drove me from the game for years as I was not fond of extensive testing and documenting being dismissed as a lie and there needing to be three explanations for a change because each previous explanation was shown not to be true (or evasive wording designed to imply something other than was the case--"all powers of form X, Y, and Z were changed" when only one power fit that form and so the initial claim of a nerf to the power was in fact true).

Unfortunately, the devs really needed a spokesperson and didn't have one.  "Why" is actually one of the most difficult questions to answer, because there usually isn't a simple answer to "why?"  The devs often tripped over themselves trying to answer this one, because they gave colloquial answers that the players then parsed into oblivion. 

Also, and I have to be blunt here, I know of no case where the devs said "all powers of form X were adjusted" and in fact there was only one such power adjusted and all other ones were left alone.  If such a thing had occurred, and it was actually discussed on the forums, I would have endeavored to prove it true or false.  So much of this kind of anecdote are things I know to be false specifically *because* I investigated them or have first hand knowledge of them that its hard to give them the full benefit of the doubt after the fact.

The devs were many things, but they were not in general liars.  They could be wrong, but usually for innocent reasons.  For example, when Castle said that SR Evasion was buffed in I6, I was able to prove that in fact it wasn't to a high degree of certainty (back then no real numbers, so that could only be proven with hours and hours of testing).  It wasn't that Castle lied, it was that the patch with the change was reverted without his knowledge in the test build because of other problems with it, something that became clear when the change he specified later showed up in the next build.

There was a point in time where more than 50% of the time I spent on City of Heroes was spent just browsing the forums and picking up strange or unusual assertions, and then investigating them in my own time to see if they had merit and should be brought to the attention of the devs or disproven with analysis to quash the rumor.  Its through all of that parsing that I discovered and assisted with the fixes for luck and insight inspirations, AR scourge, reward replaying, and tons of other things that the players discovered a piece of but just couldn't always precisely pin down.

On the other hand, some myths would not die no matter how much I tried to squash them.  Force Feedback suppression was one of them.  To this day, Paragonwiki's version of history is that it was there, then not there, then back again.  This is how conventional wisdom explains the fact that suppression was never there at any of the times I tested for it, and as far as I'm aware never in the design of the power for any of the times I looked for it.  Strangely though, a lot of other players swore it was there**.  As far as I know, Force Feedback's +recharge proc granted a power for 5 seconds that provided a 5 second +recharge buff to self.  You could only have one copy of the buffing power so it did not stack.  There was no other effect in the proc, and nowhere for suppression to go.  I used it constantly, always getting more benefit than suppression would allow if it existed.  Sometimes players were just straight up wrong (in fact the article links to an internet archive copy of a post from a player that claimed the buff didn't stack but did refresh; to the best of my knowledge that not only didn't happen but I'm not sure the game engine could even do that on that date; I'm not sure what Replace semantics would do to a grant power, but Force Feedback wasn't using it anyway).


** In the days before Real Numbers, this kind of thing was difficult to test for.  It is in fact entirely possible that most or all of the players who tried to test for this effect failed to create a test capable of falsifying their assumptions.  What I did was slot FF in all my Energy blast powers and cycle a single attack on a target until it triggered, then I waited 6 seconds and hit a large group with an AoE looking for it to activate again.  I used long-recharge powers as clocks to determine if the recharge buff actually existed regardless of any buff icons present.  The fact that I could get it to activate shortly after expiration and within the supposed suppression window means suppression didn't exist, period.  That was unambiguous.  That was true in every issue the FF proc existed from its first appearance until I19 when I stopped testing because seriously, at that point I realized the myth was unshakable.