Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: TonyV on September 02, 2012, 05:39:11 PM
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One step ahead of you. :P
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Cross posted on the RO forums.
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Dear Sir,
Thank you for supporting financially, administratively and logistically a game I have come to love for years. I have made friends, and become closer to friends I already had through this game. City of Heroes was more than a hobby to me, it was a community, and a place to go to unwind after a hard day. Needless to say I was shocked and dismayed when I learned that the development staff had been fired and the game would completely shut down within three months. I was shocked for two reasons. First, I, like many others were under the impression the game was doing well. The game had just released a large amount of exciting new content and was getting ready to release more. Secondly, games like this typically stop making new content before they go dark, it's highly irregular for a game of this caliber to shut down right in the middle of new content production.
Pondering this causes me great concerns about your company. Either your company just made a rash decision and was willing to not only anger a community of well over 100 thousand, and destroy the lives of 80 employees due to intra-company fights and politicking, or your company has committed a cardinal sin in business by shutting down a profitable venture to save flailing projects. Both of these possibilities are completely unacceptable in a business environment.
When City of Heroes became a hybrid subscription game I remained a paying subscriber, while also spending more money on micro-transactions; so, why would I as a consumer, choose to play any of your other products when I know that such a brash decision with such short notice is acceptable in your corporation. Why would I as a potential stockholder purchase stock from your company on the Korean Stock Exchange based on your current actions.
This mistake can be rectified. Reconsider, and rehire the team running Paragon Studios, or make the shrewd business decision to sell them off to another company, or spin them off into another division.
Either of these options would do a great deal to heal the damage that has already been done to NcSoft's name.
I leave you with this thought, no great river refuses any small stream.
Thank you for your time,
Dave Babler
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My only question is should I call it "the Korean Stock Exchange" or by it's native name?
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Question: Could email also work? Probably no, but worth asking, right?
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Frost,
Calling it the Korean Stock Exchange should work since that's what it gets referred to as in the US, and in the English version of Korean newspapers. You could also call it the KRX and he should know what you are talking about, but I find absolute clarity is often the best solution when dealing with people.
Otherwise a decent letter. Best of luck :)
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Only "decent" :( damn it.
I was hoping for stellar.
You can call me Dave, since I posted my real name anyway
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Good letter. Now I got to think of one.
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I'm on it and will have it ready asap. Am in the middle of a big move so not all I need is always in one place just yet, unfortunately. But I'll make it work, no worries.
@CursedSorcerer: e-mail won't do alas. E-mails will go to a random callcenter agent and be dealt with there. None of the CEO's will even know the excistence of your e-mail.
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Please dont shut city of heroes
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great letter i will steal most of that and send myself
Thank you
Please don't, I don't want NCsoft to think we're barraging them with form letters. Sometime this week or next, we might set up some sort of "Send X just as a show of unity," but for this stage of the operation, I really want you to come up with your own words to express what the game means to you.
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Being posted from the UK tomorrow, to both Seattle and Korea:
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Sir,
I am writing to add my voice to the thousands of others begging you not to destroy the City of.. games.
I really have no idea how to write this letter. I don't know whether to appeal to your humanity, or your business sense.
City of.. is a game like no other. Its players know it's not the flashiest, or the best looking game around. We know it's a bit dated. We know we can't rival the population of some of the other MMORPGs out there - but we're still here. We've been paying subscriptions for eight and a half years, we've been supporting the game and the company behind it, because we feel honoured to be a part of it. Because we've spent nearly a decade creating characters that we have come to love, poured time and money into making them as good as they can be, making bases for them to live in, creating and telling their stories, and making friendships that are so close that we have almost become family - despite the fact that a world separates us.
We are a community, and we love our game. We don't want to lose what we have worked for, we don't want to lose a world we love and we don't want to see our community scattered.
I understand you won't have taken this decision lightly. I understand that a company doesn't make 80 people redundant on a whim. But please, I urge you to work with the community, with the players. To give us a chance to keep the characters we have poured our time and money into, the bases we have spent weeks of our lives building, the friendships that have survived for years and the groups that have bought us all together.
Please stick us on a spare server somewhere, and allow the community to try and save itself. Put us up for sale, make us opensource, give us a chance to buy the IP rights and the engine from you. Closing us down is just vandalism.
Please give us the chance to take this game that you no longer want off your hands. Our petition to save the city has already seen over 10,000 people sign up, people who are volunteering their time and effort to try and keep the game running.
I'm not going to threaten never to buy another NC Soft game, but the fact is that currently, you don't have anything on offer I'm interested in playing. This is the same for many players - if anything they'll move to DC Universe, or Champions online, giving money to your competitors. It's got to be better walking away from this with a big wedge of money and a happy fanbase than just wiping out a whole online universe.
I know you've already received a number of letters like this. I'm sorry to send another one, but I can't help it. The heroes of Paragon City want to save their world, and the villains on the Rogue Isles want to take it over.
Please give us the opportunity to do it. We can't help it. We're heroes, and villains. It's in our nature.
Sincerely,
(me.)
@Vandellia, Virtue.
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:gonk: please dont shut the COH down!!!!
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I'm sure that writing letters will not have much effect. I mean... this is not the first game they closed, so they know how the fans will react. On one lonley PC is sitting a citizen and they tell him: "Dude, we are closing City of Heroes so there is longer any support for this game. You will get a lot of letters now untill November, just delete every mail that is coming in..." and the same will happen to the letters, right into the trash with them...
I'm also sure that every other puplisher get the news that City of Heroes is shutting down by NC-Soft and when anyone is intressted into the game then they will do something to get the IP from NC-Soft.
Maybe we can't do much, but when something can be done then I think the best way is the press. I think it's much easier to get in contact with them then the publishers. Let them know what's going on here. Bad publicity is something that is never good for anyone. Even when this is a game with not a big community I'm sure the people are very intressted what NC-Soft is doing with his older games. I mean they still want to sell Wildstar soon...
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This is not a dying game with dwindling population. We were making our game show a profit. One way or another, peaceably and politely, we can show them that we are not numbers on a balance sheet to be crassly discarded.
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Please don't, I don't want NCsoft to think we're barraging them with form letters. Sometime this week or next, we might set up some sort of "Send X just as a show of unity," but for this stage of the operation, I really want you to come up with your own words to express what the game means to you.
Ok Tony ,i'll be more orginal or wait
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I'm sure that writing letters will not have much effect. I mean... this is not the first game they closed, so they know how the fans will react. On one lonley PC is sitting a citizen and they tell him: "Dude, we are closing City of Heroes so there is longer any support for this game. You will get a lot of letters now untill November, just delete every mail that is coming in..." and the same will happen to the letters, right into the trash with them...
I'm also sure that every other puplisher get the news that City of Heroes is shutting down by NC-Soft and when anyone is intressted into the game then they will do something to get the IP from NC-Soft.
Maybe we can't do much, but when something can be done then I think the best way is the press. I think it's much easier to get in contact with them then the publishers. Let them know what's going on here. Bad publicity is something that is never good for anyone. Even when this is a game with not a big community I'm sure the people are very intressted what NC-Soft is doing with his older games. I mean they still want to sell Wildstar soon...
Why so negative? Fan letters and persistence has worked on things in the past, and it will continue to work in the future. While there is no guarantee that we will see results, there is also no guarantee that we won't. We have to try. Without trying, there is 100% chance of failure. That is unacceptable to many of us.
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For what it's worth.....
Dear Mr. Kim:
I am writing to appeal to you to keep City of Heroes alive in some form. I subscribed to the game in December 2004 and my subscription has not ever lapsed. No other game has given me as much creative pleasure to play, because no other game features its character creator, large number of character slots, and fast pace of gameplay.
If NCsoft no longer desires the game as a part of its product roster in light of its financial situation, please allow someone to purchase Paragon Studios or the game's IP for further development.
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I'm sure that writing letters will not have much effect. I mean... this is not the first game they closed, so they know how the fans will react. On one lonley PC is sitting a citizen and they tell him: "Dude, we are closing City of Heroes so there is longer any support for this game. You will get a lot of letters now untill November, just delete every mail that is coming in..." and the same will happen to the letters, right into the trash with them...
You simply don't know this.
If even half of the alleged 700,000 players write a letter, that would be 350,000 letters they'd have to discard.
Heck, even if if one out of every four players wrote a letter...that's 175,000 letters.
How many trash bins would be needed for those?
That would be noticed.
Also, many waves of change have occurred due to letter-writing campaigns.
I love this game so much that I'm willing to be optimistic over pessimistic.
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All right guys, I finally finished mine. Please let me know what you think:
Dear Sir,
I am a City of Heroes player of over seven years and I am writing to ask you to reconsider your decision to shut the game down. I have met some very dear friends through CoH and its amazing community continues to inspire me in ways not even my friends or family can. Over the past eight and a half years, this game has become something beautiful. It has given birth to a family. I may not know each member of the community, but I sincerely believe our common experience, your 'game', has created a bond that goes far beyond staring at a screen and mashing keys. As I write this, an entire league of heroes stands together to save our community and its game. We are not bonding over task forces and incarnate trials this time. We stand together to fight for something much bigger. I cannot pretend to know, or even guess at, the reasons you chose to shut down the game. What I do know is that I would do anything to save it. I feel like my family is being torn apart. That is why I am asking, BEGGING, you to reconsider. We are not ready for this. I have been playing this game since I was fourteen years old, I am twenty-one now. CoH has taught me things I could have never learned on my own. I am not ready to stop learning, I cannot simply let these memories fade. Thank you for your consideration. I hope for the best.
Sincerely,
Allen S. Aho
Nitpicking is encouraged, I'll rewrite it a dozen times if I have to!
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In the event that some of you are not aware, there is a standard format for letters written to businesses. Using correct format can go a long way to showing how serious you are taking your communication and the CEO's time and effort needed to read your letter.
Here is an excellent example:
http://www.mybusinessprocess.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Business-Letter-Format-001.jpg (http://www.mybusinessprocess.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Business-Letter-Format-001.jpg)
Tony, I love your idea of hand writing the letter on the bond paper (we just have to pay attention and keep our handwriting neat and not sloping up the page). I have a fountain pen that will be ideal for this project. Thank goodness I had my carpal tunnel surgery done a couple of months ago! :D
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Dear Sir,
I am writing to you after the news that the game City of Heroes is scheduled to be shut down later this year reached me, and I am hoping you and your staff may reconsider this action. I have been a paid member of the community since the game's launch, and a member of the beta testing program prior to that. For over eight and a half years, I have considered Paragon City to be my second home, and the cancellation of the game has come as a horrible shock.
In the time since I first received an invitation to join the game, I have moved four times, held six different professions, had two friends and two beloved relatives pass away, and restarted and completed college. During hardships, I knew I could turn to those people I had made friends with within City of Heroes, and to the game itself as an escape from the pain and fatigue. I created countless characters, each unique with life of their own, whose problems I could create, and solve, giving me power to tackle my own hardships.
City of Heroes has been there for me for a quarter of my natural existence now, and much of my life has been touched by its influence. When I went to college, I chose to go into game design because I held the dream of one day helping to craft the characters and stories I had become attached to within Paragon City. I've connected with friends long lost through the game, been there for proposals, weddings, and births of children for friends I've met.
I have suffered serious physical injury at the Penny-Arcade Expo in Seattle during my stint as an Expo Hall volunteer assigned to NCsoft, in order to make sure those who had helped make the game I loved had no problems while the event went on.
My subscription to this game will lapse for the first time upon cancellation of the game. I have purchased every expansion, every booster, every costume piece and power set that the wonderful team at Paragon Studios has ever produced. I would have continued to do so until they gave up... But they were going strong. Issue 24 and the future of the game looked brighter than ever. I do not know what sway my words may have, if any, but know that this action has killed a little piece of my soul. So many of my hopes and dreams were wrapped up with this game.
Please, give it another chance. If not, I would hope you and your staff might consider allowing the team at Paragon Studios the chance to own the IP themselves and continue their legacy. Let us soar into the clouds again.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Michael T. Eastham
This will be going out Friday.
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Un-stickying. Not that it's not still important, if you haven't sent a letter to NCsoft, PLEASE do! But I don't want the other action items cluttered up.
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Another player I know mentioned that he'd sent letters out today, certified mail, just as described. He wasn't comfortable coming over here and crowing about it, instead just quietly did it.
Hopefully there's a quiet person out there for every one of us shameless loudmouths posting our letters to the forum. Or two, or three. =)
Here's a big "Thank you!" to all of those quiet, dependable people who did what was needed without a fuss, and without coming and posting it. Your letters are just as important, and your work just as appreciated, even if we didn't know about it.
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Let me think about what I want to write and I'll definitely send something out.
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I just remembered that I know a guy at Gamestop corporate, he scribbled his cell on an XBL points card he gave me as thanks for a big promotion I ran for them on my last build project.
In the morning (when he gets to the office) I'm going to give him a call to see if I can maybe remove my ads from the two locations that sponsor my art and instead put up notices about COH and how to sign the petition.
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(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=nerdfitti.com%2Fimages%2Fcoh%2Fletters.png)
I'll be mailing it out in a few hours when the post office opens
Sacred bovine! I love your letterhead/paper! I wish I'd thought of going into such detail but I wanted to get it out quickly so just used some fancy paper. My printer is glitching and I can't get a decent pic of Jord to come out and I can't draw for dookie so I couldn't include a pic. :(
I really hope that folks keep making an effort. I had a friend tell me last night that he didn't think that writing letters would do any good but like Soundtrack said:
If even half of the alleged 700,000 players write a letter, that would be 350,000 letters they'd have to discard.
Heck, even if if one out of every four players wrote a letter...that's 175,000 letters.
How many trash bins would be needed for those?
That would be noticed.
Also, many waves of change have occurred due to letter-writing campaigns.
I love this game so much that I'm willing to be optimistic over pessimistic.
I cannot justify not writing the letters to try to save a game and community that I love.
Beautiful work, Taki!
Crymsin Lilly
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Another player I know mentioned that he'd sent letters out today, certified mail, just as described. He wasn't comfortable coming over here and crowing about it, instead just quietly did it.
Hopefully there's a quiet person out there for every one of us shameless loudmouths posting our letters to the forum. Or two, or three. =)
Here's a big "Thank you!" to all of those quiet, dependable people who did what was needed without a fuss, and without coming and posting it. Your letters are just as important, and your work just as appreciated, even if we didn't know about it.
*big thumbs up*
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My letter - drafted, but not yet penned as I need to find some decent paper:
Dear Mr. Kim,
Reading that City of Heroes was being shut down was a shock to me on par with losing a family member. City of Heroes is the reason I can have friends, with my life constantly moving me around by hundreds and even thousands of miles cross-country because of school and my fiance's job. He is also a devoted City of Heroes player and it is through this game that we are able to connect with each other and have something to do together when he is in Austin, Texas and I am 1,900 miles away in Providence, Rhode Island. The shutdown date of November 30th is right when I need to leave him again and return to school, and without City of Heroes, we will be two very sad and lonely people. This is not just a game to me. It is a part of my life - not my whole life, but a part as dearly loved as a real city or town that I could call home, and the only online game I have ever loved enough to pay a monthly subscription.
However, City of Heroes goes beyond individual players who will mourn its passing. This game, like any work of fiction, is an entire world of stories and characters created by both the players and developers. The same could be said for other intellectual properties - Star Wars, Pokemon, and the Marvel Universe spring to mind immediately - but all of those properties exist in the form of movies, comic books, tabletop games, and single-player, replayable video games in addition to any multiplayer online video games. If the game servers for, as an example, Star Wars: The Old Republic are shut off, then the entire universe of Star Wars will still exist in the form of the many books, movies, and offline games based in it, that we would still be able to read, watch, and play. City of Heroes, on the other hand, is only an online game - when its servers shut down, its whole world disappears, and the loss of that world and its stories is a tragedy.
I implore you, if NCSoft truly cannot sustain even one City of Heroes server, then please sell the intellectual property to someone who would be able to keep the world alive - even to someone who would only keep it alive in a form other than an online game. I understand if it can never be an online game, developed by Paragon Studios, again: that would be the most wonderful thing for the people who still love it, but I acknowledge it might not be possible. But if City of Heroes lives on as a series of comic books, or as a tabletop game played with dice similar to Dungeons&Dragons, even that would save the world and the stories it contains from oblivion.
Sincerely,
Hilary Lockhart
@FlashToo - Virtue server
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The letters will be written this weekend, by both myself and my 11 year old son, who also loves the game. Pictures will also be sent.
And TonyV, I don't know if you remember me, but I am Dryfter, leader of the Celestial Outsiders on Infinity. I Remember you, and the Taxibots, well. Small world, a?
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NCSoft, Please rethink your decision, to shut down COH, over the years, it has allowed me to hang out with my Dad who lives 10 hours away, hang with my kids and wife, and play something we loved. This decision seems rash and not well thought out, alot of people I know have spent alot of time and money being loyal to you guys. I have referred two best friends, a wife, a son, a father, all have paid you. Please don't sit on your product, either reopen this, sell it. If you do sell it make it public enough so that we cohers who have money can maybe buy this and keep it going!!! SAVE COH!!!!!
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Sacred bovine! I love your letterhead/paper! I wish I'd thought of going into such detail but I wanted to get it out quickly so just used some fancy paper. My printer is glitching and I can't get a decent pic of Jord to come out and I can't draw for dookie so I couldn't include a pic. :(
I really hope that folks keep making an effort. I had a friend tell me last night that he didn't think that writing letters would do any good but like Soundtrack said:
I cannot justify not writing the letters to try to save a game and community that I love.
Beautiful work, Taki!
Crymsin Lilly
Thanks! I really hope that it gets his attention!
As suggested I sent it with signature confirmation (2310 3280 000 2636 0242) this morning... I mean when they went to unlock the door mine was the first face they saw standing there waiting for them to open the door.
For those who want to go the route I did it was only $7.70 to send it in the large priority envelope with signature confirmation
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To everyone who has posted there letters, I just want to say thank you. So many of your stories ring home to me as well. I even started crying over some of them. ;) My husband and I are in the process of writing our letters as well. I will probably post mine after it is done, it may take me a few days, but it will be done. Also, Tony thank you for posting a few guidelines about how to go about doing this. You are very organized and are doing a great job of handling this situation.
Sincerely,
Nazarrii
Liberty Server
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Below is my letter to NCSoft. I'll send it this weekend when I can get to a post office.
Dear Mr. Kim,
It was with great sorrow that I read the announcement last week that NCSoft had made the decision to sunset City of Heroes and dismiss Paragon Studios. I have played City of Heroes since September of 2004. There have been times when I have tried other games and let my subscription lapse, but I have always come back to this one game - a game that has held my attention and passion for eight years now.
This past year has been particularly exciting. I was skeptical when the Freedom expansion was announced and the game was set to go free to play. I wondered if this would mean that the game I love would change in some way and that I would no longer enjoy it. I really had nothing to worry about. Not only was the game vastly improved by this move, but the explosion of new content was amazing. The extra revenue was obviously a driving force for a better City of Heroes. I decided shortly after Freedom launched to renew my subscription for the entire year. Honestly, at that point, had a lifetime subscription been offered, I probably would have purchased one without any hesitation.
I'm not the only one that feels this way, either, my wife plays the game and so does my son. He grew up watching me play City of Heroes and couldn't wait until he could make his own hero. For quite some time, he's had a few characters on my account that he would play from time to time, running around Atlas Park, "catching bad guys." When Freedom launched, I decided he was old enough for his own account and set one up for him. He was thrilled that he could have his own City of Heroes, though, admittedly, a bit disappointed that he couldn't play the characters he had made on my account.
As you can see, what started as a simple game or hobby has evolved into something much more than that over the years. My story is not unique. I'm sure by now you may well be aware that many among the player base have expressed the same sentiment as I. That we are working diligently to try to save this game - a game that has become so much more to us than simply a game. It's a community. It's a creative outlet for so many talented artists. It's a family past time in my house and many other players.
I implore you to reconsider your decision to sunset this product. Or, failing that, please consider allowing the studio or the fans to purchase the property. All I ask - all we ask - is that we be allowed to let our community continue, that our heroes continue to have a home.
Please consider this. You can be a hero.
Sincerely,
Nathan Brown
@Zybron in City of Heroes
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What's that sound you hear? It's my agent having a cardiac arrest.
I am going to offer my "fame," such as it is (well I am allegedly a NYT bestselling author, or at least that is what they put on the books) in uncompensated advertising for ALL NCSoft games if they will make it possible for the game to continue.
"I'm New York Times bestseller Mercedes Lackey. Creating fantastic worlds is hard work, and when I relax, I like to relax in someone else's. I play NCSoft games. Anything else is unimaginable."
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What's that sound you hear? It's my agent having a cardiac arrest.
I am going to offer my "fame," such as it is (well I am allegedly a NYT bestselling author, or at least that is what they put on the books) in uncompensated advertising for ALL NCSoft games if they will make it possible for the game to continue.
"I'm New York Times bestseller Mercedes Lackey. Creating fantastic worlds is hard work, and when I relax, I like to relax in someone else's. I play NCSoft games. Anything else is unimaginable."
I want to put this on my fridge! You are a kind and generous lady, if maybe as crazy as the rest of us. :)
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What's that sound you hear? It's my agent having a cardiac arrest.
I am going to offer my "fame," such as it is (well I am allegedly a NYT bestselling author, or at least that is what they put on the books) in uncompensated advertising for ALL NCSoft games if they will make it possible for the game to continue.
"I'm New York Times bestseller Mercedes Lackey. Creating fantastic worlds is hard work, and when I relax, I like to relax in someone else's. I play NCSoft games. Anything else is unimaginable."
Ms. Lackey, this is extremely generous of you. I thank you and your heart of literary gold! :)
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What's that sound you hear? It's my agent having a cardiac arrest.
I am going to offer my "fame," such as it is (well I am allegedly a NYT bestselling author, or at least that is what they put on the books) in uncompensated advertising for ALL NCSoft games if they will make it possible for the game to continue.
"I'm New York Times bestseller Mercedes Lackey. Creating fantastic worlds is hard work, and when I relax, I like to relax in someone else's. I play NCSoft games. Anything else is unimaginable."
All Hail Mercedes !
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=vsrteam.power-heberg.com%2FALL_HAIL_VICTORIA.jpg)
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What's that sound you hear? It's my agent having a cardiac arrest.
I understand that the folks at the Cleveland Clinic just up the road from here are pretty good with that sort of thing. :)
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What's that sound you hear? It's my agent having a cardiac arrest.
I am going to offer my "fame," such as it is (well I am allegedly a NYT bestselling author, or at least that is what they put on the books) in uncompensated advertising for ALL NCSoft games if they will make it possible for the game to continue.
"I'm New York Times bestseller Mercedes Lackey. Creating fantastic worlds is hard work, and when I relax, I like to relax in someone else's. I play NCSoft games. Anything else is unimaginable."
You, my darling, are a hero. Thank you so much.
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Oh don't get too impressed. 99% of this ploy being successful is going to depend on them buying that I am just that impressive. I'm not that impressed with me, but I am going to get the spouse to ramp up the *dazzledazzle BS jazzhands* factor in the letter. And I am going to cross all possible digits that it works.
I hope those were your "Jedi-mind-trick-I'm-really-that-awesome" jazzhands...
Honestly, your humility is encouraging to an aspiring creative type like myself.
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EDIT: This has the jazzhands seal of approval.
Madam, I won't forget what you've done for our community. Will the person that hands out jazzhands seals of approval mind if we distribute this document around the main forums? Possibly clean it up and give it a blog post somewhere? It could raise morale and convince outsiders that this is a story worthy of gaming news sites--and possibly assorted geek sites, too.
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Madam, I won't forget what you've done for our community. Will the person that hands out jazzhands seals of approval mind if we distribute this document around the main forums? Possibly clean it up and give it a blog post somewhere? It could raise morale and convince outsiders that this is a story worthy of gaming news sites--and possibly assorted geek sites, too.
Quote me wherever and whenever you like. *jazzhands* is my husband Larry Dixon, I generally run everything I do that is official past him because he is the diplomat of the family.
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What's that sound you hear? It's my agent having a cardiac arrest.
I am going to offer my "fame," such as it is (well I am allegedly a NYT bestselling author, or at least that is what they put on the books) in uncompensated advertising for ALL NCSoft games if they will make it possible for the game to continue.
"I'm New York Times bestseller Mercedes Lackey. Creating fantastic worlds is hard work, and when I relax, I like to relax in someone else's. I play NCSoft games. Anything else is unimaginable."
Madam, I now shamefully admit to not having read any of your books prior to the events of the last week taking place.... *gets buried under an avalanche of large blunt objects thrown at him*
...however, the instant I acquire the funds needed to purchase your books(stupid lack of employment!!), I shall immediately set about to meeting your coh-inspired characters in print....
Ya' hear that, NCSoft? That's the sound of a VERY LARGE hornet's nest you've stirred up.... *evil cackle* ;D
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I'm just gonna go ahead and volunteer to keep the pigeons off of the Mercedes Lackey statue that will be erected in Atlas Park when this is all over. You, madam, are a saint.
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Madam...
Madam...
...You, madam...
<stage whisper> Guys, she's gonna think that we think she's old or something!
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What reason would she have to y\think that? We respect her for putting her personal capital (IE, fame) on the line for the community.
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Ms. Lackey,
I said it before and it's worth repeating.
You completely understand what it means to be giving and generous.
Thank you so very much for your kindness and willingness to give so greatly of yourself.
I just hope in the (hopefully LARGE) pile of letters Mr. Kim receives... yours is one he definitely, personally reads...and that he seriously considers it.
With highest respect,
Soundtrack. :)
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Misty,
VERY glad to have you on board. You may not see it yourself, but your name definitely carries weight around gamers, and with your help, our chances just tripled -- at the (extremely pessimistic) least.
~Mychyl
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<stage whisper> Guys, she's gonna think that we think she's old or something!
Hey... I used "darling". Points for originality, anyone? >.<
No? Okay.
I'll just restate just to make sure. Mercedes, I very much appreciate your support. It is a godsend to us all :)
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I'm just gonna go ahead and volunteer to keep the pigeons off of the Mercedes Lackey statue that will be erected in Atlas Park when this is all over. You, madam, are a saint.
No really, seriously, I am just crossing my fingers and counting on the notion that writers are regarded way more seriously and respectfully in the far east than here. If this works, it'll be because we dazzled 'em with BS. Now...if I can finally get hold of Jim Butcher...and HE agrees to sign on to this crazy idea and we can add HIM! Now there is someone you need to build a statue to.
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Ok, if you can't tell by my user name, I'm a fan of your work (not one of those horrible nut job fans I just love the character and decided to use the name as an online handle). Years ago I was estatic that you played CoH. Now, I'm well, impressed by you and your devotion to the game.
I can only hope that if I should ever be so fortunate to get published (on my fourth rewrite of my manuscript and have 2 kids so...) that I can remain as humble and forthwright as you've been with your career.
Thank you for being an example to which I aspire to emulate in some fashion.
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Oi, Misty...
Think you can talk to Gail? She might have some additional star power.
:)
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Oi, Misty...
Think you can talk to Gail? She might have some additional star power.
:)
The problem is that she has severe conflict of interest because of DCO. But there's no harm in trying.
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Wow, that's one impressive letter indeed! ;D
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Totally Adding Mercedes Lackey to my list of authors to buy books from.
-.- that list is starting to get too large.
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Maybe I've been reading too many other books lately (MZB, GRRM), but if there ever is a formal contract (or even just a preview in your letter of some quantifiable quid pro quo), specify the minimum amount of time City of Heroes must be kept running. The best way I can think to put it is something like "at least 3 years". Keep that tone neutral. :)
Oh, and thanks for your support.
Bad News: I've known about your books for about 20 years.
Good News: I never, ever see any of your books in the used bookstores I get my reading material from.
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I feel it's important to weigh in here with a word of encouragement and another of warning.
First, by way of encouragement: Don't let up for a moment on your letter writing! I started letter-writing the moment the shutdown was announced, and began getting the word out to everyone I knew to participate. Trust me when I say that nothing makes an impression on a corporate executive like a paper letter sitting on their desk. It has made the rounds though the building, it's existence cannot be denied or forgotten, it is a tangible expression of how a customer feels about the product they are paying for, and THAT makes it a powerful totem!
Second - and I say this as owner of my own small company and a person married to a senior executive of a much larger one - handwritten letters are rarely read or taken seriously. The hard truth is that they're a perceived as being unprofessional, immature or irrelevant, as they are frequently assumed to originate from minors or individuals without good communicat skills, and along with that assumption - unfair though it is - the author of such a letter is perceived to be lacking in buying power, and that makes their opinions or feelings irrelevant to the business owner reading it.
So I urge you: Write your letters suing a typewriter or your favorite word processing software.
DON'T print out multiple copies, but re-write and re-express your passion for CoH and your commitment as a customer to the game.
Multiple, varied, professional, mature letters show that you are not going to disappear after one letter, which also tells them you are not going to disappear as a paying customer! Most important, send your letters via Certified Mail, with a Return Receipt Request. The first makes sure your letter goes directly to Mr. Kim, while the second let's you know it got there and who signed for it.
"We can do this. We're heroes (and villains). This is what we do, because no one takes what is ours!"
"Never give up - Never surrender!"
Dasher
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<stage whisper> Guys, she's gonna think that we think she's old or something!
I AM old!
/em shakes cane
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Holy hanna. Gonna have to go out and buy some Valdemar books to help support you then.
anyway, here is what I wrote:
Mr Kim:
I am writing to express my displeasure with the announcement of the decision to shut down the "City of Heroes" MMO game owned by your company. I, in fact, beg you to reconsider this decision. Failing that, please consider selling the IP rights or giving them back to the community. This would allow both parties to continue to focus, as it says in your press release "on our core businesses".
I also do not understand why this decision was made, nor why it was decided to announce it to the City of Heroes player base in the way it was. To we players, on Thursday everyone was happy and looking foreword to new content being released, then mid day Friday we are told that everyone is being laid off, no more work is to be done on the game; nor even when you would be turning the servers off. The suddenness of it has left us badly hurt and very confused; and I for one was wondering if you would please explain the rationalizations behind this decision.
I do understand that you, as both a publicly held company and as an executive of the same, have certain responsibilities to the shareholders. I just do not understand how shutting our game down fulfills that responsibility; would you please explain it to me?
Out of all the types of Massively Multiplayer games out there, only the superhero genre has had any real appeal to me. I enjoyed the game so much I had no problem with a monthly subscription, and in fact had just purchased in game currency (and had used more than a bit of it) mere hours before the announcement was made. I understand if you, as a company think that a super heroic MMO is no longer a part of your core business model. Sadly, I have no interest in the other MMO style games that apparently are part of your core business.
In summation, I would urge you to reconsider this decision. You, as an executive and a corporation have the right to decide where you spend your monies. I hope that you would continue to spend them on City of Heroes, though if you do not I understand as well. Do understand that City of Heroes is the only product of yours that I like well enough to spend money on.
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I just realized something that may be important to consider when writing letters: Cultural differences between USA and Korea, namely, the perception of online games. Korea has such a problem with MMO addiction that they have had to pass laws to regulate it (Korean MMO accounts must be linked to SSN-equivalent, so hours online can be tracked, and you can't log on after midnight if you're under 18). With this in mind, I think it's probably important that in our letters, we do NOT come off as a crowd of addicts begging our supplier to take us back. Make it clear that this game is not our whole lives - rather, it's a part of our lives that we deem important enough to fight for. "Addicted to this game" evokes a different image to a Korean than to an American, and we want to make sure that we, the letter writers, aren't seen as sitting alone, in the dark, grinding away until someone either reminds us we need to eat or we starve to death.
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I just realized something that may be important to consider when writing letters: Cultural differences between USA and Korea, namely, the perception of online games. Korea has such a problem with MMO addiction that they have had to pass laws to regulate it (Korean MMO accounts must be linked to SSN-equivalent, so hours online can be tracked, and you can't log on after midnight if you're under 18). With this in mind, I think it's probably important that in our letters, we do NOT come off as a crowd of addicts begging our supplier to take us back. Make it clear that this game is not our whole lives - rather, it's a part of our lives that we deem important enough to fight for. "Addicted to this game" evokes a different image to a Korean than to an American, and we want to make sure that we, the letter writers, aren't seen as sitting alone, in the dark, grinding away until someone either reminds us we need to eat or we starve to death.
To that end, I think that the more we emphasize the social aspects, and how the game has brought together family members and friends who live at great distances from one another, the better the letters will come across.
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Second - and I say this as owner of my own small company and a person married to a senior executive of a much larger one - handwritten letters are rarely read or taken seriously. The hard truth is that they're a perceived as being unprofessional, immature or irrelevant, as they are frequently assumed to originate from minors or individuals without good communicat skills, and along with that assumption - unfair though it is - the author of such a letter is perceived to be lacking in buying power, and that makes their opinions or feelings irrelevant to the business owner reading it.
So I urge you: Write your letters suing a typewriter or your favorite word processing software.
DON'T print out multiple copies, but re-write and re-express your passion for CoH and your commitment as a customer to the game.
Just a bit of a counter point. In Washington, DC handwritten notes are taken seriously because it is assumed that the person went out of their way to write and didn't just copy a form letter. So I don't know if that is relevant or not with NCSoft, but thought I would share. Either way, mailed is definitely treated as more meaningful then email.
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Quote me wherever and whenever you like. *jazzhands* is my husband Larry Dixon, I generally run everything I do that is official past him because he is the diplomat of the family.
Misty, I wish you had a couple more novels available so I could own multiple copies of them too!
;)
You rock!
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Just a bit of a counter point. In Washington, DC handwritten notes are taken seriously because it is assumed that the person went out of their way to write and didn't just copy a form letter. So I don't know if that is relevant or not with NCSoft, but thought I would share. Either way, mailed is definitely treated as more meaningful then email.
Its the difference between a political animal and a business. For a business, like this, typed is better.
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Its the difference between a political animal and a business. For a business, like this, typed is better.
Indeed.
Though, not every business will have a preference for typed letters. Thank you notes and others of that kind are typically supposed to be handwritten, after all.
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First off, this post is NOT meant to discourage you guys. Just remember we have to deal in facts as well as hope.
Larry did some fact-checking and money-tracing (he's the brains of our operation, I just do the heavy-word-lifting). This is what he found.
The essence of it all appears to be as simple as this: NCsoft is owned by Nexon Co. Ltd., and Nexon has a record of only being interested in what benefits Asian gamers, and last quarter, their push was heavy East and EU.
Paragon Studios employed 80 people. Nexon employs 3,400. City made $800k clear profit a month. Nexon's quarterly was $242 million, and their latest 1 of 60 MMOs registered 3 million players in China last month. Nexon has been at a steady $1.1 to $1.2 billion dollar company for 3 years.
As big as CoH has been to us, City wasn't even a blip seen from Tokyo and Seoul. Someone 5,000 miles away (who likely never played any game the corporation owns---and even their largest shareholder only has a 21 percent share) said "reduce North American assets," and this happened. And with a billion people in China as a market for Nexon's free-to-play/micropayment 2D MMOs versus a highly-technical American-based 3D MMO, they saw no reason to bother (or, really, even take notice).
THIS SHOULD NOT DISCOURAGE YOU, especially from writing letters. But I would suggest to turn the request to NCSoft to "Please consider keeping the game and Paragon Studios--or at least partial staff--running until a new buyer can be found." there are good economic reasons for this--even at half profit because of dropped subscribers over this, $400k a month is not to be sneezed at for something you are going to sell off anyway, not to mention something you were intending to dump flat. It's like renting out the house you intend to sell, except that the renters know they are just going to be changing landlords, not getting booted.
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Thanks, Ms. Lackey. This is pretty much what we'd assumed -- that Paragon Studios wasn't being shut down because it was unprofitable, but because it wasn't profitable enough to justify their support.
To that end, while we've been keeping the "save the game" language, what we've actually been pushing for is general awareness. We know we probably can't buy out all the assets, so the goal of this awareness-raising is to interest other publishers in acquiring the game.
I would have liked to have gone with a "sell us (the fans) the Intellectual Property" angle pretty much from the start (if we could have had a fundraiser going like, last Wednesday there would have been more support than if we do it this week), but I've been in the minority. I hope this news helps push things in that direction.
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I actually find that quite encouraging. While any sale of the game might not really even register as a blip on their quarterly earnings, it would nonetheless be a last little bit of profit they could squeeze out of a title they've already written off. They are also highly unlikely to view a change in ownership of CoH as competitive given their target market.
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Thanks, Ms. Lackey. This is pretty much what we'd assumed -- that Paragon Studios wasn't being shut down because it was unprofitable, but because it wasn't profitable enough to justify their support.
To that end, while we've been keeping the "save the game" language, what we've actually been pushing for is general awareness. We know we probably can't buy out all the assets, so the goal of this awareness-raising is to interest other publishers in acquiring the game.
I would have liked to have gone with a "sell us (the fans) the Intellectual Property" angle pretty much from the start (if we could have had a fundraiser going like, last Wednesday there would have been more support than if we do it this week), but I've been in the minority. I hope this news helps push things in that direction.
While I am completely in sympathy with you, the reality is that even at fire-sale prices you are looking at a $6-$10 MILLION dollar price tag. I don't think we can raise that much quickly enough before the code would "disappear." (A smart venture capitalist with access to a strong server farm however would look at that and go "recoup my entire outlay in a YEAR? Sign me up!")
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I think we could raise two million over a six-month period. It would definitely be a challenge, though. My hope would be that we could get NCSoft to agree to that price (prior to raising the money, since "this is our target" is easier for people to dig deep on than "maybe this will be enough") for the IP and an agreement not to "lose" the code, based on our PR campaign and not seeing us as competition. From there ("fans raised 2 mil for this game!") we would attract a VC or publisher who would acquire the remaining assets. We would license them (for free) the IP, but retain ownership.
But yes, I'm also interested in simply getting a publisher on board now to do *all* the heavy lifting. I'm aiming towards Turbine/Warner Brothers Interactive at the moment, but I'll keep looking for more.
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While I am completely in sympathy with you, the reality is that even at fire-sale prices you are looking at a $6-$10 MILLION dollar price tag. I don't think we can raise that much quickly enough for the code to "disappear." (A smart venture capitalist with access to a strong server farm however would look at that and go "recoup my entire outlay in a YEAR? Sign me up!")
Indeed. Looking at the metrics, Paragon seems to be among the more profitable software companies out there. Especially considering the fact that it's only an 80 person firm.
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First, thank you to everyone who's written in. Special thanks to Ms. Lackey for offering her rights of publicity and to Mr. Dixon for doing the research on NCSoft/Nexon.
I think we could raise two million over a six-month period. It would definitely be a challenge, though. My hope would be that we could get NCSoft to agree to that price (prior to raising the money, since "this is our target" is easier for people to dig deep on than "maybe this will be enough") for the IP and an agreement not to "lose" the code, based on our PR campaign and not seeing us as competition. From there ("fans raised 2 mil for this game!") we would attract a VC or publisher who would acquire the remaining assets. We would license them (for free) the IP, but retain ownership.
But yes, I'm also interested in simply getting a publisher on board now to do *all* the heavy lifting. I'm aiming towards Turbine/Warner Brothers Interactive at the moment, but I'll keep looking for more.
I'm not sure NCSoft would have interest in selling us partial rights. If that's an option we're going to pursue, we need to determine just what rights to request. Perhaps a limited-term license to run the game (possibly using some of the emulators people have been working on?), with an option for purchase once the term is up? I don't know the gaming industry, or Korean IP business models, well enough to give clear suggestions here, but someone needs to think of some.
As I've stated elsewhere, if we get into a fan purchase situation, there needs to be some entity to hold the rights. I think someone with some experience in setting up businesses had better get on this sooner rather than later.
The easiest (of several very difficult options) thing to do still seems to be to have an existing publisher who can plunk down the $6-10 million for an immediate purchase of all rights. As Ms. Lackey pointed out, from a typical investor's point of view, the CoH IP has a fantastic rate of return. It's finding someone who realizes that and has the cash (or financing) to make the purchase that's the sticking point. Time to call in those connections, everyone!
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City made $800k clear profit a month.
Are you sure you mean profit here and not revenue? I've done my own math, and I arrive at Paragon just barely breaking even, and possibly drifting into the red sometime 2012/2013.
Then again I only have educated guesswork about the financials, so if you have more information than I do about subscriber numbers, I would welcome the information.
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Are you sure you mean profit here and not revenue? I've done my own math, and I arrive at Paragon just barely breaking even, and possibly drifting into the red sometime 2012/2013.
Then again I only have educated guesswork about the financials, so if you have more information than I do about subscriber numbers, I would welcome the information.
I don't know where Larry got his numbers, but I am confident they are solid, given that Melissa "War Witch" Bianco told me on the day of the shutdown that "We were doing WELL!"
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This an audio link to Ncsoft and Nexon 2q 2012 Earnings conference call ( English translate) .. Most informative is the Q&A .
http://222.122.46.97/ct/ncsoft/20120808/ncsoft.html
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Had some issues getting it to open in Firefox (possible due to NoScript being a little aggressive despite telling it to allow all.)
Direct link to the audio in case you want to just copy paste into Windows Media Player: mms://222.122.46.97/ct/ncsoft/20120808/ncsoft20120808.wma
If you just want to download it and listen to it (I saved it off to keep a copy handy), change the "mms" to "http"
Edit: Also, the transcript: http://ir.nexon.co.jp/cms/pdf/kessan_0796632885889107.pdf
Edit2: It doesn't seem that the transcript and the audio are the same conversation. I thought they were, but apparently not so much.
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Edit: Also, the transcript: http://ir.nexon.co.jp/cms/pdf/kessan_0796632885889107.pdf
^^^^^That one is Nexon's.
The audio is NcSoft,
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Yeah, I realized that as I was listening to the audio and tried seeing if I could follow along in the transcript. Clearly not. :)
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Then I put it to you, and the rest of the City of Heroes player community, that we are writing to the wrong person. An article on All Things (http://allthingsd.com/20120827/exclusive-daniel-kim-stepping-down-as-nexon-america-ceo/) about the new CEO of Nexon America, Min Kim,states:
Mr. Kim, if you see such a big opportunity, then why is Nexon and NCSoft shutting down a game that proves exactly what you claim -- taking an existing community of people, some of whom have played City of Heroes for more than eight years, and throwing, not merely them, but the people who worked to develop the game that has earned that loyalty, under the bus? The City of Heroes community would seem to me to be the proof that, with the right game, you can create a dedicated group of players who will support a game for years. You have the opportunity to reverse a decision that puts the lie to your claim of what you see as the future of Nexon America; step up and prove that your words are more than just another sound bite, tailored to give the appearance of dedication while containing no substance.
This is a very valid point, my friend. Much like using their code of ethics to our advantage.
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Some points. Because the data simply does not agree with the claim of "$800K profit per month." Not at all.
One, you cannot apply US accounting standards to NCsoft. NCsoft is a South Korean company, which is not US listed, and goes by South Korean accounting standards. They are different.
Two, no matter how much people try to paint Nexon as some sort of evildoer swooping in to axe City, they are nobodies. Their total stake in NCsoft is approximately 14.75% of all shares. Yes, the lion's share of 'major shareholders,' but also not much more than treasuries (9.4%.) See: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/structure.aspx
Three, NCsoft uses the diversified holdings method. What you hear about "NCsoft" in their earnings report is essentially independent of the performance of their holdings - some of which they own less than 50% of. The accounting of individual subsidiaries is not generally disclosed. Take with a grain of salt assertions from subsidiaries that they are/were "doing great." It's the same everywhere else - I've been there.
Four, NCsoft did in fact, break out game sales for City in the 2Q12 sheets - sales of $2,890M KRW for 1Q12 and $2,855M KRW for 2Q12 totaling $5,745M KRW. Sounds impressive, doesn't it? It's not - that's $5.1M total sales over 6 months against Lineage's $90M. And that's revenue not profit. (2Q12 Consolidated Fact, Pp. 5) In fact, the only game with lower sales than City was Guild Wars (excluding GW2.)
Sheet's here: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/quarterly.aspx - Earnings Report Download.
When you apply basic math to this equation, well, claims of "$800K/mo profit" do not pass a sniff test. Or basic arithmetic. A reasonable revenue estimate (that is, income before costs) for City based on sales would be roughly $950K/month in USD.
According to http://data.bls.gov/pdq/querytool.jsp?survey=cm (http://data.bls.gov/pdq/querytool.jsp?survey=cm) - that is, the Bureau of Labor Statistics - the per hour cost per employee can be averaged at $47.13. You'll want to plug in "Total Compensation", "Professional and Related Occupations", and "Private Industry" then scroll to 2012 Q1. Please note that this does not include costs like electricity, leases, office supplies or office equipment.
According to Wikipedia, Paragon Studios had 46 employees as of August 31, 2012 or thereabouts. So we'll roll with 46. That means that it cost Paragon Studios $2,167.98 per hour worked, $86,719.20 per week, and about $347,000 per month. Just to have bodies in the office (or remote.)
Mountain View offers some wonderful views and an .. interesting culture, I think I'd call it. It also offers very expensive real estate - even the "cheap" stuff is north of $14/square foot. Each employee requires as a rule of thumb, 200 square feet. We'll say only 40 people actually worked in the office - that's 8,000 square feet. Another $112,000 per month to put a roof over their heads.
Again, we consult BLS - this time at http://www.bls.gov/ro9/cpilosa_energy.htm (http://www.bls.gov/ro9/cpilosa_energy.htm) - to find a cost of $0.193 per kWH for electricity in the region. A reasonable estimate would be approximately 50 computers each consuming around 250kWH per month (also accounting for printers and copiers.) That's another $2,412.50 before you turn on the lights, the coffee makers, the vending machines...
So if you've been following along, then yes, you should have costs of over $460,000 against revenues of $950,000 per month.
This does not include costs for some benefits, office supplies, food, coffee, server operations, customer service costs (provided by NCsoft), legal services, outside consulting services, contractors, equipment replacement or repairs, cleaning services, or any other incidental costs of which there are many. These are also not disclosed by NCsoft as they are contained within the Paragon Studios subsidiary and then lumped into the "combined operations" with absolutely everything and everyone else.
And that's using only data we can confirm or reasonably estimate.
The unfortunate truth is that this is not the picture of financial health, especially for a game development studio which needs time and far more importantly, money to do major overhauls and updates. Issues may be given away, but they are not free to develop, and they add to those costs and sit on balance sheets you and I simply don't see. (Nor do developers usually, strangely enough.) If we say Paragon spends approximately $1M to develop, test, and release issues and DLC in addition to normal operating costs per quarter, it actually works out like this:
$2.85M (Revenue at $950K * 3) - $1.38M (Base Operating Costs at $460K *3) - $1M (Development) = $470,000 left
Yeah. That would mean ending two quarters with total profits that likely wouldn't even keep the lights on for one month. To develop a CoH2 would easily cost several million dollars - probably over $10M these days. And again, that's not accounting for a number of other undisclosed costs or estimating anything we don't have data for. There simply isn't enough money to support continued development - a 4 month development cycle costing just $600K takes 6 months to pay back.
Data is what the data is. Nexon isn't leeching profits or axing spitefully, NCsoft isn't part of some grand conspiracy. There simply aren't the finances to continue, and it doesn't make financial sense from the data available to drop $10M on a maybe when your last few "guaranteed hits" cratered.
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AreEss, where are you getting the $1M EXTRA for development? Paragon wasn't hiring extra employees, development was the JOB of the employees there. They weren't adding extra computers, the computers THERE were for development. I fail to see where this extra $1M in cost is coming from.
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AreEss, where are you getting the $1M EXTRA for development? Paragon wasn't hiring extra employees, development was the JOB of the employees there. They weren't adding extra computers, the computers THERE were for development. I fail to see where this extra $1M in cost is coming from.
Because you're falling for the grand myth that "the development costs are baked in." They absolutely are not. Those are strictly the base operating costs. Those are the costs as though it were the exact same CoX as on release day with no further updates at all for the next 24 months. The costs would be the exact same.
Those are the costs, and I cannot emphasize this enough, just to keep the lights on. That is: to maintain and support the existing code and customer base and perhaps offer a few costume textures a year.
Here's what happened when NCsoft decided to consider City of Heroes 2 as an example of early stage development:
First, they took up the time of developers, accountants, managers, and artists to determine if it was viable. This is time not being spent on maintaining the existing asset.
Then consult this: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/qs/ope/fee092611.htm
And then the City of Heroes (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=toc&state=4007%3A1ajtic.1.1&p_search=searchss&p_L=50&BackReference=&p_plural=yes&p_s_PARA1=&p_tagrepl~%3A=PARA1%24LD&expr=PARA1+AND+PARA2&p_s_PARA2=City+of+Heroes&p_tagrepl~%3A=PARA2%24COMB&p_op_ALL=AND&a_default=search&a_search=Submit+Query&a_search=Submit+Query) search.
They had to pay lawyers to do those searches first. Then they had to pay artists to come up with concepts. Then they had to pay lawyers to review those concepts. Then they had to pay the trademark application fees. All of these things take time and money.
Just maintaining the City of Heroes 2 trademark application is charged as an extension fee of $2,700 per month since late 2010.
Now let's say you want to do something relatively simple, and add a new canon character for a new story line. Get some artists to draw it up, animate with existing stuff and go, right? Wrong. Because or prior litigation (you know what) that goes to legal. Legal then has to research it extensively. Then research has to research it some more. Then legal looks at the results and gives a thumbs up or thumbs down. It could be "your concept is too much like Batman," it could be "your costume is actually from the KKK" (you like my Metalocalypse reference there?) but you get the general idea.
When you do get the sign off on your new canon character - which as you can see is very different from a player character, since it represents the company and the giant lawsuit target on their back - you now have to cycle through a different development process. New artwork. New textures. New costumes. New meshes. Tweaking till it fits just right, because once it's done, you can't change it so easily. Creating the lore and backstory for that, instead of correcting typos or grammatical errors in existing writing.
Now, there's two ways to overcome it. One, you let the base languish while you do your development work. Two, you hire more people to develop beyond the base. Paragon folks know how that is - they kept City afloat with all eleven of them, but were hemmed in tight, and didn't have the resources to really expand till they got more people.
With purchased in-game content, it's an even uglier process. Because you have to spend more time in research to find out what it is that will sell. You need to direct your development resources to the appropriate tasks - namely, those that will bring in money. Let's say that means power sets. So back to legal, who gives the sign off, which sends it to art and programming and _Castle_. Who now can't maintain the game because they have to create new things and refactor balance endlessly. Which means that others are trying to pick up the slack, which could be slowing down bug fixes or some other really cool feature. (Again, ask the Paragon folks about the dark days. I heard straight from them "we wanna do this cool thing, but we just can't because we don't have the resources right now.")
And if that item cost you $10,000 in outside costs and $75,000 in existing, but you only sell $25,000? That's a $35,000 net loss. You spent more money making it than you made from it.
So no, development costs are not baked in. Only base maintenance, which no matter how hard you try, can never fully encompass the true costs of development. Every hour spent making something new is salary in the hole until the day that item is released, and stays there till it turns a profit. It's a cruel equation, but it is unfortunately, what it is. It's things like this that have kept me from a lot of projects I'd like to do or be involved with, because the development investment required would take too long to return or would just have too much risk of being a total wash.
A new City is a big endeavor, and no matter what, would involve and require abandoning the current City with a tiny skeleton crew at best. People who only have the time to just keep the hamsters in the wheels turning and maybe catching a bug or two. Exploits, cheats, and expansions would necessarily fall to the back burner as the key staff got moved to focus their efforts on a new engine, a new story, a new world. Which means new hardware, new software, and the time to build it all - an undertaking of months if not years.
I'm honestly forced to agree with NCsoft's decision because with the data they have - CO bombed, STO bombed, Aion bombed, SW:TOR bombed, even TSW bombed - the market looks rough and ugly. Subscribers and revenues have been declining. City is just not financially healthy, the primary driver for a while now has been the continued development and Free-2-Pray conversion, and the results aren't good enough to justify continuing down that path.
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City is just not financially healthy, the primary driver for a while now has been the continued development and Free-2-Pray conversion, and the results aren't good enough to justify continuing down that path.
The problem with your argument, though, is that I've talked to people who, unlike you, me, or anyone else posting here, would actually know whether or not City of Heroes was making money. Every one of them without exception has said the exact same thing: City of Heroes was in the black. Not just barely scraping by, but enough to fund an entirely separate project to develop a next generation MMO, certainly very well enough to keep going as-is for the indefinite future.
That aside, in spite of everything you've said, I still remain unconvinced of what you have presented here because that simply doesn't make sense to me. If City of Heroes was doing so poorly, why would NCsoft allow Paragon Studios to use expensive resources on their development and art staff to work on yet another game, a game that ultimately would be developed by the same people that made the one that is supposedly doing so poorly now? If this were a financial decision, why would NCsoft have gone to such an extreme measure of firing everyone, instead of trying to slash the budget and salvage what subscriber money is left to collect?
I'm sorry man, but I just don't buy it. I don't doubt that you're convinced that you're right, and I don't doubt that you're probably frustrated at us ignorant folk who just don't seem to understand the points you're making. But really, what it boils down to, "Do I trust the people I've been talking to, or do I trust a random stranger on the Internet?"
You don't have to believe me. Shoot, no one has to, really, because I can't offer you one shred of proof of what I'm saying. I hope a year or two from now I can come back to this post and say with no small measure of vindication, "See? I told you so." But for now, if you do believe me, then I'm telling you that I am 100% convinced of this fact: City of Heroes was making significant profits for Paragon Studios and NCsoft, and using the business model it was operating under, it is well capable of sustaining all of the operational costs (and then some) of an independent development company. Hopefully I've earned at least some measure of trust that folks here don't think I'm just making stuff up out of my ass. You don't have to put your faith in me, but if you choose to for just a little while longer, I promise I'll do my best to come through for you. (*he says as he types this post at 6:10am after staying up all night to send out press releases, knowing he has to get up at 9:00am for his day job...)
It really boils down to, does a company want to have a footprint in the MMO market that City of Heroes caters to? NCsoft doesn't. Other people do.
Anyway, this thread has been derailed enough. I don't want to start moderating posts, but I really need folks to stop arguing about this, it is completely unproductive. If you have other ideas about better ways to help save City of Heroes, we'll be happy to entertain them, but right now our focus is squarely on getting the property from NCsoft into the hands of someone who can keep the game as it is running.
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First time posting here. I hope I will not break any rules and such.
I didn't read all posts just take a quick look to them. I noticed some are thinking this is a futile effort. However I like to remind them what happened with Mass Effect 3. Bioware back stepped and changed their game's ending. So never underestimate power of gaming community.
Secondly it is very natural for CoH Freedom attempt didn't go well. I mean devs worked so hard to bring their best into the game. However those greedy NCSoft menagement did something I will never understand and will never forgive. I promised that very day I will never sub CoH again and never spend a dime on a NCSoft game. Unlike all other MMOs I've played and still playing, NCSoft was the first to try dig more gold from their already paying customers via selling them what they should have free, powers. Powers (power sets or what ever you call it) are backbone of every Superhero MMO. This is why Champions Online and DCUO found other ways to appeal free costumers and make them pay for their game. I am currently subbed to Champions Online just for freeform heroes (picking powers for your heroes at your heart's content). Champions was stubborn to not allow Freeform characters to free players, now after PWE they are selling Freeform slots in their market. Costly but still enough to make some people to pay for it.
NCSoft only cares for their next big "hit" in my opinion. So while I can't find any polite words to tell NCSoft menagers, I full heartedly support your efforts. I can write those kind words but my heart won't be standing with them. Maybe that is for better as I am not a good liar. For me devs, players and City of Heroes/Villians game will be better without them. Just no need to spread this around... yet.
Highest Regards,
@Knightly
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Because you're falling for the grand myth that "the development costs are baked in." They absolutely are not. Those are strictly the base operating costs. Those are the costs as though it were the exact same CoX as on release day with no further updates at all for the next 24 months. The costs would be the exact same.
Those are the costs, and I cannot emphasize this enough, just to keep the lights on. That is: to maintain and support the existing code and customer base and perhaps offer a few costume textures a year.
Wait, the "base operating costs" is the salary of the Paragon Studios employees, that did *what* exactly ???
They did develop the game.
They did maintain the game.
They did get paid for that.
A developper company is a company, it has employees it has to pay, so, a fixed salary.
A developper company sells goods or services, which is where they get the money to pay the employees from.
This is basic knowledge about a business. Expanses, Gains. Simple.
Now, you're telling everyone here they paid 1 millions to develop a game they were paid to develop, maintain, and manage the community of. I'm just asking Where did this money go then ? We've never heard anything about Paragon Studios stating anything else than they were developping the game. THEY, themselves, PS, the devs, Positron & co.
Basically, you were adding real, honest to goodness and accurate expanses (and that was a good job) with their paycheck from NCSoft (That you pulled out of your backyard)
And no, a development company is no different. When they hit a contract with a publisher to do something they can't, they hire. That's upfront (equipment) an monthly expanses, but nowhere a million ! But where did you pull this million ?
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Can you please move this into a different thread? This can be viewed by everyone, including prospective buyers of the game.
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All right guys, let's all calm down and get back to business. I know we all have opinions, but it does not matter which side we agree with let's just internalize it for now and revisit if necessary.
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Ooops.. didnt realize the topic had been shushed.
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I call shenanigans on AreEss.
(very well reasoned and logical explanation)
Or, if you'll indulge me...
(https://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww272/ft5512/troll-in-the-forums.jpg)
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I call shenanigans on AreEss.
Actually, the first part of AreEss' argument comes from NCSoft's Q2 earnings report, which I have also downloaded and read. That part is beyond reasonable dispute at this point, as far as I can tell. So let's start with $950k/mo as a base starting point.
The question then becomes, what does it cost to support the game? I disagree with AreEss' segmentation of operating costs and development costs; the studio was absolutely doing all the development (this part too should be beyond dispute). So either Paragon Studios was doing both development and operations, or operations was borne by other parts of the organization. Either way AreEss' math doesn't follow.
However, I think AreEss lowballed the cost of running Paragon Studios. I live in the area (actually, about half a mile from the now-former studio) and I would estimate the cost of each employee at around $100k/year. That's both salary and benefits. For 80 people, that's $8M/year in salary and benefits, against a profit of about $11.4M/year ($950k*12). Rent, utilities, and server maintenance are separate, in addition to whatever legal and support costs came out of the corporate headcount. I don't have quite a good enough back-of-napkin calculation to work that part out, but if CoH made more than $1M in profit a year, I would be very, very surprised.
Tony, I've talked to some of the people from Paragon, and while they did seem to believe they were doing well, I also got the distinct impression that even they were not given the full financial details of their divisions' performance. I believe this reflects poorly on NCSoft's management skills, because if I were running a studio where profit/loss was important I would make damn sure that every employee knew how the studio was doing; but the people I talked to only seemed to have a vague idea of what was going on, financials-wise.
Look, I don't want to rain on your parade here. I loved the game while I was playing it, and I'm working on getting the Mac port of the character export tool working, so I'm on your side. But I want you to go into this with eyes open: if you make a group purchase of IP, you should be prepared to run the game at break-even or a slight loss. Especially considering that this could be the group's first attempt at running an MMO, with all the pitfalls and mistakes that would entail.
- Kris
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Don't forget that Paragon went on a hiring spree a year or two ago. They were working on a completely new game, with the cost of development most likely funded by the profit that City of Heroes would otherwise be raking in. Several key CoH developers were shifted over to that project. Even sources inside Cryptic confirmed that they licensed the engine for a second game (no doubt because of the familiarity of their developers with it). All we really know about it is that they repeatedly stated that it was a new IP not related to the City of Heroes franchise.
So assume that anywhere from 20-40 people within the studio were working solely on the new project, and it seems likely that City of Heroes by itself was doing at least decent.
Whether or not the 'secret project' played a part in NCSoft's decision to close the studio and the game, I don't think anyone can say beyond pure speculation at this point.
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Don't forget that Paragon went on a hiring spree a year or two ago. They were working on a completely new game, with the cost of development most likely funded by the profit that City of Heroes would otherwise be raking in. Several key CoH developers were shifted over to that project. Even sources inside Cryptic confirmed that they licensed the engine for a second game (no doubt because of the familiarity of their developers with it). All we really know about it is that they repeatedly stated that it was a new IP not related to the City of Heroes franchise.
So assume that anywhere from 20-40 people within the studio were working solely on the new project, and it seems likely that City of Heroes by itself was doing at least decent.
Whether or not the 'secret project' played a part in NCSoft's decision to close the studio and the game, I don't think anyone can say beyond pure speculation at this point.
That is true. I was actually quite shocked to hear the studio employed 80 people; I would expect you could run basic support of the game with a staff of maybe 30 people, with forward development and new features taking another 10 heads. That matches your estimate of heads working on new projects.
On the other hand, as I said, I don't know how to back-of-napkin the non-salary parts of the op-ex. I could easily see non-salary expenses adding up substantially. So again, I think the group should set realistic expectations for this being a profitable enterprise. If you do get to the point of negotiating a purchase, you should require examination of the profit and loss reports for the franchise as a precondition on the deal.
- Kris
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Darn it all Tony! Stop bringing up the secret project! It was interesting at first, but now its like dangling fresh meat 8ft off the ground in front of a starving dachshund! lol ;D
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Darn it all Tony! Stop bringing up the secret project! It was interesting at first, but now its like dangling fresh meat 8ft off the ground in front of a starving dachshund! lol ;D
I wish I had better "insider" connections than I do because I honestly have zero clue what it is. Like a lot of other people, I thought it was going to be a sequel to City of Heroes, but at some point, they explicitly ruled that out. So I'm just as clueless as everyone else here. I could speculate, though. I have a hard time that it's not at least vaguely related to City of Heroes. I'm thinking maybe some game set in the City of Heroes universe, but on a different planet or something. I wish I knew. I'm hopeful that someday we all will when it actually gets announced and then released. (!)
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Well all *I* can tell you is it isn't related to anything that I write, so I am just as in the dark as you.
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I wish I had better "insider" connections than I do because I honestly have zero clue what it is. Like a lot of other people, I thought it was going to be a sequel to City of Heroes, but at some point, they explicitly ruled that out. So I'm just as clueless as everyone else here. I could speculate, though. I have a hard time that it's not at least vaguely related to City of Heroes. I'm thinking maybe some game set in the City of Heroes universe, but on a different planet or something. I wish I knew. I'm hopeful that someday we all will when it actually gets announced and then released. (!)
We all know that Tony. We know that if you knew anything, then we would know. Why the hey do you think everyone on this communty trusts you and your peers in this protest? Titan Network has a track record of getting things done. Personly, I am glad you guys are at least trying to keep us in the know. Its not much, and the wait is made even more unbearable for those who can contribute so little, but it keeps us hanging in there. So, we thank you for that.
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I'm telling you, I'm convinced that this is doable.
I'm not trying to tell you it's not doable. I'm just trying to set realistic expectations, as I mentioned before.
Look at it this way. Depending on how you plan to raise the money, it seems very likely that you will need to present a business case, and a very solid one (to banks, to venture capital firms, to private investors). Such a business case will need to fill in numbers for estimated capital expenses, estimated operating expenses, and projected revenues. I believe you'll need both access to NCSoft's historical data, and original research backed with vendor quotes. The former should be part of due diligence while negotiating a purchase.
Don't just disagree with my numbers - challenge them with better ones. I doubt anyone is rooting more than me for me to be wrong.
- Kris
PS. I feel like this whole discussion probably belongs in a different thread, but this is where VV happened to post the numbers, so...
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New topic to add to your letters to NCSoft.
They are now feeling the attention of a focused social network on their business practices.
Remind them of that fact.
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Are they?
I'm asking because the media focus in on us mostly because there is so little new information being officially released from anywhere else. I respect a confidential source, especially now that media are starting to look here, but someone has to ask. I'd much rather ask as a friendly than let a nay-sayer or even a troll be the one to do it.
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No news is ... no news?
I had a similar conversation on vent. My friends are not big on forum posting, here or on CoH boards. Their concern is that NcSoft has made the announcement and is just biding their time until November 30th. The more time that passes without any communication bewtween NcSOft and CoH public at large the more the sentiment is going to grow.
Maybe that is what NcSOft is hoping for. No communication isn't making them look any worse.
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No news is ... no news?
I had a similar conversation on vent. My friends are not big on forum posting, here or on CoH boards. Their concern is that NcSoft has made the announcement and is just biding their time until November 30th. The more time that passes without any communication bewtween NcSOft and CoH public at large the more the sentiment is going to grow.
Maybe that is what NcSOft is hoping for. No communication isn't making them look any worse.
Well there's no way they aren't aware of what we've been doing. 100+ news articles and a 3,000+ player rally have to be getting their attention. If not then someone over there isn't doing their job.
No news is no news. There are endless explanations for this. However, as far as I know, NCSoft is still in talks with the former Paragon Studios (and apparently investors) concerning the future of the game. I imagine our first bit of communication from them will include the provisions of those.
Ever the optimist, I prefer to tell myself that NCSoft is simply biding their time to make the best use of the press they're getting. Whether that means waiting until our media momentum is at it's peak to announce that the game will be saved in some capacity OR waiting until it's died down to say "screw you" again.
Either way, we CANNOT allow them to stall out our efforts. So do not give up! Just look at it this way, no bad news is good news! :)
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I sent my letter last week certified mail with return receipt requested, and just got the receipt back signed by 'Stephanie Keyes.'
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Are they?
I'm asking because the media focus in on us mostly because there is so little new information being officially released from anywhere else. I respect a confidential source, especially now that media are starting to look here, but someone has to ask. I'd much rather ask as a friendly than let a nay-sayer or even a troll be the one to do it.
We have Hit Streak's word on that at the rally. Paindancer believes CNN is going to accept his article as a mainpage thing rather than the CNN Blog. Again, I would urge you to turn attention to BUSINESS zines and blogs, because this is new; businesses have been aggressively pursuing Social Network strategies, but that can go both ways. When they give us access...they give us access to give them a black eye. This is the non-gamer angle that will interest anyone who goes online.
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This is the non-gamer angle that will interest anyone who goes online.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I think our story is at the very interesting intersection of social media, economics and online gaming. If spun correctly, it could make for some very compelling reading. Personally, I'd love to see CNET, Wired, or The Wall Street Journal cover it.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly. I think our story is at the very interesting intersection of social media, economics and online gaming. If spun correctly, it could make for some very compelling reading. Personally, I'd love to see CNET, Wired, or The Wall Street Journal cover it.
If we managed to get into the WSJ, I think my head would explode.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly. I think our story is at the very interesting intersection of social media, economics and online gaming. If spun correctly, it could make for some very compelling reading. Personally, I'd love to see CNET, Wired, or The Wall Street Journal cover it.
You hear that, Paindancer?
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If we managed to get into the WSJ, I think my head would explode.
I don't know what its like in Korea, but there is a saying here that if its not in the WSJ then as far as business is concerned it didn't happen (paraphrasing).
So how do we make that happen? I don't have much of a press list, but I'll check with some of my media guys to see if they know anyone there.
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I'm gonna cry, you are AWESOME!
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You hear that, Paindancer?
I'm no journalist. And I'm certainly no businesscritter. But if we cross our iReport with the story (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_14/87-The-Conquest-of-Origin) mentioned in this thread (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297177) on the main forums (fora? I've always been partial to "fora."), we might get some traction as part of a larger piece on how video games are apparently undergoing the same top-down conglomerating that I'm seeing in Big Pharma.
That's my best idea on getting into WSJ, though.
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i just wanted to pass this post card along from Save Our City Of Heroes on facebook
(https://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/magickbear1/Save%20Our%20City%20Of%20Heroes/SOCOH1.png)
(https://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s34/magickbear1/Save%20Our%20City%20Of%20Heroes/SOCOH2.png)
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I sent my letter today.
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Letter written, mailing out Monday.
Sorry for the lateness, my wife & I just had our first baby and I didn't even know about any of this until I logged into CoH today and read my SG msg.
What a total pile of.......
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There's one other thing we might do. What about Korean players, in Korea or otherwise? Also Chinese and Japanese players.
Since NC don't seem too bothered about the North American market, English-language correspondence might be making a limited impact.
However, they are Korean and care about the Korean market. Letters written in real (i.e. not machine-translated) Korean, preferably from actual Korean players, would doubtless have a greater impact. Messages like those may be more likely to reach executives in unaltered form. Chinese/Japanese-language correspondence from Chinese/Japanese players may similarly appeal to their interest in the broader East Asian market.
For the rest of us, we might be living in the wrong market for NC, but writing them in Korean can't hurt. If we have native Korean speakers here, perhaps a translation effort could be coordinated.
This might be a long shot, so no need to pester acquaintances/strangers (unless you want to 8)).
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선생님,
파라곤 스튜디오 나 영웅 프랜차이즈의 도시를 닫하지 마십시오. 시간 내 주셔서 감사합니다.
Dear Sir,
Please do not close Paragon Studios or the City of Heroes franchise. Thank for your time.
Google translate is ok but I am sure in SOME strange way it could be interpreted to say 'City of Heroes. Tastes like chicken' or something wierd. :o
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I don't know what its like in Korea, but there is a saying here that if its not in the WSJ then as far as business is concerned it didn't happen (paraphrasing).
So how do we make that happen? I don't have much of a press list, but I'll check with some of my media guys to see if they know anyone there.
Emm... the WSJ? Why would they? Doesn't that paper cater to all the people who don't give 2 ****s about the little guy?
Our campaign screams digital Occupy. I don't think they'd touch it with a 10-meter pole.
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Sent off my letter and masks today.
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Google translate is ok but I am sure in SOME strange way it could be interpreted to say 'City of Heroes. Tastes like chicken' or something wierd. :o
Would heavily advise against using Google translate. That could end up being incomprehensible and/or offending the reader.
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There's one other thing we might do. What about Korean players, in Korea or otherwise? Also Chinese and Japanese players.
Since NC don't seem too bothered about the North American market, English-language correspondence might be making a limited impact.
However, they are Korean and care about the Korean market. Letters written in real (i.e. not machine-translated) Korean, preferably from actual Korean players, would doubtless have a greater impact. Messages like those may be more likely to reach executives in unaltered form. Chinese/Japanese-language correspondence from Chinese/Japanese players may similarly appeal to their interest in the broader East Asian market.
For the rest of us, we might be living in the wrong market for NC, but writing them in Korean can't hurt. If we have native Korean speakers here, perhaps a translation effort could be coordinated.
This might be a long shot, so no need to pester acquaintances/strangers (unless you want to 8)).
Which is curious since I believe the "NC" in NCSoft stands for NorCal or Northern California Software....
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I sent my letter on the 13th.
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My postcard
3 members of my SG
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F424608_4128325640923_1704400520_n.jpg)
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I still believe that the best way to get NCSoft's attention and to get them to take any effort seriously is to show them that not only are we willing to play the game if they'll sell it to somebody, but we're willing to put together money to try to build that third party who will buy it from them.