I have no connections in this industry, nor do I have financial means.. or even the skills to really write.
... but if you ever need something lit on fire, let me know! ;)
You know where I'm working, Tony. You've got my red pen and all. (I'd say axe, but that's not so helpful when working with computers...)
Why exactly is the potential for Paragon Studios to go independent with outside financial backing(I.e. not necessarily from a game publisher) not on the table at the moment?
You're a software guy, I can tell. An axe is essential on the hardware side...
I have discussed the state of NCSoft with a few people in game - one thing I didn't realize before is Nexion's part in all of this. It changes things drastically.Interesting. It always puzzles me that a company would be considered valuable for an IP they've actively damaged by shutting down its customer base. But if it's a buy-out NCSoft wants, then there are a number of things one could potentially do.
If NCSoft is indeed trying to make itself attractive for investment or a buyout, their aim will be to cut costs without harming their portfolio. In other words, they MUST hang on to the City of Heroes IP, because selling it shrinks their portfolio. But operating it costs probably more than any other game they have (due to the semi-independent Paragon Studios in high-salary California) so the IP is more valuable than the game itself. CoH is more valuable to NCSoft dead than alive.
That means getting NCSoft to sell is going to be very difficult to near impossible, UNLESS their investors (Nexion) can be convinced that the company will be just as or more valuable without it. This means a DOUBLE negotiation to make it happen, which is far less likely, and may be the reason Paragon seems to be failing to gain independence.
Licensing is pretty much the only way to go here now. NCSoft that way can show to investors that they still have the IP in their portfolio, and they also don't bear any of the operating cost. The licensing percentage is good for NCSoft, but irrelevant to an investor, so it could be called a fallback measure to keep NC's profits up until it does find investment.In this case, if it's just "the family" that owns it that wants to cash out, buying the IP won't hurt if we can offer enough to cover the 'shortfall' it would cause in the buy-out price.
So it's an arrangement highly benificial to NCSoft, with one caveat: It's possible that the family running NCSoft wants out, and that's why they're making it attractive for a buyout. If that's true, they will not want any contracts, licensing or otherwise, tying them down; because everything they're doing is to maximize the amount of cash they walk away with at the end of the buyout process.
It's still worthwhile to try, though, and if I could contact the Paragon business team, that's what I would suggest they pitch as well.Hm. I have also gotten nothing from the people there I've tried to contact, even through highly-regarded business networking methods.
One huge caution though: If NCSoft does get bought out, or heavily leveraged, it's highly possible City of Heroes will be shut down way earlier than the Nov 30th ending date - possibly as early as Sep 30th, since it's the end of the quarter. So if we're aiming for an operations licensing deal, we're running out of time.
Side note: I think NCSoft knows what I'm up to. I tried to get the contact info of their Business Affairs contact, and they won't even give that to me. They have effectively tried to turn and blind eye/ear to any offers, but I'll see if I can get through anyway.
What would the clear feasibility of approaching a studio not to copy CoH but remake it...not sure if I am stating this correctly. Not necessarily a CoH2 .... but something based on what we liked and some of our pipe dreams. Willing to be part of something like that...no matter the wait.
For what it is worth, I'll put my storytelling talents into the pot. If any iteration of CoH can be got up and running, I'll storyboard content gratis, based on the existing canon. I have a lot of experience in writing in other peoples' story canon (Andre Norton's WitchWorld, Anne McCaffrey's Brainships, C.J. Cherryh's Merovingia, Robert Adams' Horseclans, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar, Wendy and Richard Pini's Elfquest, Keith Laumers' Bolos, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover, and those are just the ones I did professionally and got paid for). I'm not real good at turning story into mission-arcs--as witness the agony I went through on the Diana Tregarde/Guest Author arc--but I can give you plot, character and dialogue.
- And, of course, there's the usual silence out of NCsoft.
Who owns the game engine?Cryptic
If not NCSoft, is that engine licensed to NCSoft exclusively?It's licensed in perpetuity, but we don't have any information (that I'm aware of) regarding whether or not that license is transferable along with the IP.
Cryptic
It's licensed in perpetuity, but we don't have any information (that I'm aware of) regarding whether or not that license is transferable along with the IP.
I want to second what you pointed out about wishing the devs well. It would be just plain unreasonable and petty of us to expect them to sit around for a few months or weeks, with families to feed and bills to pay, to see what happens with NCSoft.
It would be absolutely shocking to me if the license WERE transferable.
Someone whose ability to make business contacts seems sound actually contacted Cryptic about this. It seems they are willing to transfer the license.
That shouldn't be so shocking really. This is a game engine, as opposed to IP--software as opposed to content. People might be unlikely to let go of IP, but this is a bit like DirecTV licensing their TVtop box. "I'm moving, I wanted a new box anyway, and the new renter wants my current box. Can I transfer it to his account?" "Of course you can!"
Someone whose ability to make business contacts seems sound actually contacted Cryptic about this. It seems they are willing to transfer the license.
That shouldn't be so shocking really. This is a game engine, as opposed to IP--software as opposed to content. People might be unlikely to let go of IP, but this is a bit like DirecTV licensing their TVtop box. "I'm moving, I wanted a new box anyway, and the new renter wants my current box. Can I transfer it to his account?" "Of course you can!"
I'm a decade plus software program manager and developer - with some of that in the game/entertainment area of software.
I think the 3 options you're presenting - if we can't have "Plan A", the next best option is to recreate COH in 'our image' if you will.
Some of the arguments presented of CoH being 'long in the tooth' are precisely why a reboot with a completely new COH crafted by a fan driven development effort would actually work, and work well - even getting investors via something akin to Kickstarter.
There are a very LARGE number of PMs, Devs, Designers and others who play CoH who if we could locate them, organize them - would have the skills to help with this. I know because I've run into a few while playing and talked shop with several over the years. They do exist - many btw, work for other game manufacturers and software companies.
I keep hearing talk of the game engine license needing to be transferred - but why not just buy a completely new license to go with the work.
I know it sounds daunting but the fact is - it's not. It is expensive. It does require work. But it's not really all that impossible. Maybe it's because I've worked in software dev for as along as I have but I really don't see the problem others seem to see with this. Yeah, the project needs to be carefully planned, investors lined up, a solid set of project plans with devs, designers, testers all those things that go into a game - and realistic projections for the first three years on cost. If you show that the games been making money without any real PR (which NC hasn't put in an effort there in years), that its still holding it's own after 7+ years and the current level of fan support and I seriously see there being a good shot at get investors and building a new CoH.
It obviously - for legal reasons can't be 'CoH' but I think everyone is seriously over estimating how much of CoH's IP is actually non-replicable, and how much of it needed updating or isn't really an owned IP but a concept - which can be reworked and needed to be anyway.
I seem to remember a podcast years ago (Jester's Court maybe?) where they were talking about how Cryptic's big strategy for the future was to use 'the Cryptic Engine' to make quick and easy content creation for any/all of their future games, but alos make it available as a toolset to other developers to create their own games.
I believe this was prior to (or right around) CO's launch, and I most definitely remember there being a website for the Cryptic Engine.
Obviously, this was way before Pefect World entered the equation, so who knows where that idea went, but it was definitely soemthing Cryptic had plans for back in the day.
Cryptic Studios Releases Cryptic Animation Rig
Free Cryptic Animation Rig Now Available Under the GNU General Public License
LOS GATOS, CA - May 11, 2007 - Cryptic Studios, Inc., an independent developer of massively multiplayer online games, announced today its proprietary Cryptic Animation Rig (Cryptic AR) is now available free for download under the GNU General Public License.
"Our goal is to foster a community of animators by providing them the power to generate animations without having to worry about supporting a toolset. Since we were already developing the rig for our core technology team, we decided to release it to the public under the GNU GPL," said Shayne Herrera, Art Development Director for Cryptic Studios. "We feel that the development and gaming communities will benefit greatly from a professional tool like the Cryptic AR."
Cryptic AR allows animators of all experience levels to familiarize themselves with the same tools used in a professional development environment. Unlike other free animation rigs, Cryptic AR is not an approximation of production tools, but the very tools currently being used to produce next-gen game visuals at Cryptic Studios.
"We decided to add the ability to switch and create character skins called 'IDs' (identities), " said Sean Burgoon, animator and creator of the Cryptic AR. "Cryptic AR version 1.0 ships with three IDs and we plan to release more on a regular basis. We are encouraging user-submitted IDs through the animation community we are creating on our web site."
The Cryptic AR web site will also have forums to serve as the community home for aspiring AR animators. The forums will act as a place to inspire continued creativity in users and support animation needs.
Cryptic AR version 1.0 is now available for download at www.crypticar.com.
I have in fact used an axe to demolish a computer before. ;)
It was a non-functional computer and the purpose was to get the obnoxious upstairs neighbors to turn their rap down because I had a migraine....but it worked. For several months.
I've discussed this with other people, and the main problem--the one we simply cannot get around--is the amount of time it will take before a new CoH is ready for play in the most limited (think Atlas Park, Perez, Hollows and King's Row ONLY) version. Look how long it took before The Secret World (no relation to my "Secret World Chronicle" and we had the name first) was ready. It began production under a different name around 2004, changed the name to the current one in 2007ish, and only this year went live. That's almost 8 years (and 2 or 3 different studios) of production time. How many players are going to wait for ONE year, much less four to eight? Not many, is my bet. If we could get our hands on....oh....20 or 30 million dollars, we could speed that up. But the reality is this will be, like The Secret World, a slow, mostly part-time-only, undertaking. People gotta eat, and failing Tony V coming up with a lot of folks to pony up in the six figure range, there is no getting around it, the "studio" we create will be a fraction of the size of Paragon Studios and we would be doing absolutely everything from scratch.
That being said, I realize that not everyone is part of the Christian faith and this is probably not a welcomed comment by everyone, but please be aware that Christians believe we are made in God's image - and we share other characteristics of God, too. Although we cannot speak things into existence, in a peculiar way, we do have an impact on things with our words. (Self-fulfilling prophecy ring a bell for anyone?) If we can just believe that a solution to saving CoH is possible and imminent, it is not without the bounds of possibility for this to happen. I see and read about a lot of things that happen that were not at all likely or probable, yet they happen just the same.
Although we cannot speak things into existence, in a peculiar way, we do have an impact on things with our words. (Self-fulfilling prophecy ring a bell for anyone?) If we can just believe that a solution to saving CoH is possible and imminent, it is not without the bounds of possibility for this to happen. I see and read about a lot of things that happen that were not at all likely or probable, yet they happen just the same.
After reading the Testimonials thread started by Ms. Lackey, and being so deeply moved by the stories presented there, I feel quite comfortable praying for some type of resolution to present itself. For many (a LARGE percentage) this game is/was/will be a lifeline.
I've discussed this with other people, and the main problem--the one we simply cannot get around--is the amount of time it will take before a new CoH is ready for play in the most limited (think Atlas Park, Perez, Hollows and King's Row ONLY) version. Look how long it took before The Secret World (no relation to my "Secret World Chronicle" and we had the name first) was ready. It began production under a different name around 2004, changed the name to the current one in 2007ish, and only this year went live. That's almost 8 years (and 2 or 3 different studios) of production time. How many players are going to wait for ONE year, much less four to eight? Not many, is my bet. If we could get our hands on....oh....20 or 30 million dollars, we could speed that up. But the reality is this will be, like The Secret World, a slow, mostly part-time-only, undertaking. People gotta eat, and failing Tony V coming up with a lot of folks to pony up in the six figure range, there is no getting around it, the "studio" we create will be a fraction of the size of Paragon Studios and we would be doing absolutely everything from scratch.
For what it is worth, I'll put my storytelling talents into the pot. If any iteration of CoH can be got up and running, I'll storyboard content gratis, based on the existing canon. I have a lot of experience in writing in other peoples' story canon (Andre Norton's WitchWorld, Anne McCaffrey's Brainships, C.J. Cherryh's Merovingia, Robert Adams' Horseclans, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar, Wendy and Richard Pini's Elfquest, Keith Laumers' Bolos, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover, and those are just the ones I did professionally and got paid for). I'm not real good at turning story into mission-arcs--as witness the agony I went through on the Diana Tregarde/Guest Author arc--but I can give you plot, character and dialogue.That is quite generous of you. I really hope we're all in a position where this can happen; I'd love to see what you do with it.
For those who aren't of the Christian faith or who otherwise don't believe in various deities, we'll settle for expressions of desire for favorable statistical variance. Or as some put it, wish us luck. ;)
When a community loses it's meeting place - true- folks will scatter a bit and things won't be the same. However, if the next thing to replace CoH is several years out, I've little doubt that most of the folks that were subbed will find their way to it.They will, but I think you've stumbled onto a key component. The community around it will have a lot of cohesion if the fan base finds a new place to gather while they wait. Titan Networks' web site(s) are obviously one possible location, and doubtless some activity will continue here, but events, activities, etc. in support of it likely will be important, as well. Cosplay at conventions, fanfiction (especially in the legal derivative-works varieties), and even pen-and-paper style role playing games run through play-by-post, IRC, or at people's local gaming stores or in their basements would all be good ideas. LARP events at gaming and comic conventions could be fun, especially if you could get limited license to have Statesman or Positron show up. Or even Lord Recluse or Nemesis.
That being said, I realize that not everyone is part of the Christian faith and this is probably not a welcomed comment by everyone, but please be aware that Christians believe we are made in God's image - and we share other characteristics of God, too. Although we cannot speak things into existence, in a peculiar way, we do have an impact on things with our words. (Self-fulfilling prophecy ring a bell for anyone?) If we can just believe that a solution to saving CoH is possible and imminent, it is not without the bounds of possibility for this to happen. I see and read about a lot of things that happen that were not at all likely or probable, yet they happen just the same.I know that the more I've prayed, the more I've been able to get serendipitous contacts and discoveries regarding this. My own interests may not be as a player (I can't really afford the time for an MMO), but I am interested in seeing this work, and I hate to witness something so many people love die so pointlessly. And just discovering this board, I've made multiple advances in my understanding of the situation. Even if it is not God's intention that I should have a role in this, I appreciate how He has helped me to learn, and I am sure He will be there for all of us in this event such that we will come out of it stronger. And maybe it will be in His plan that things will work out as we hope. I know, if those of us who do share a belief in Him pray, He will help each of us find a way to achieve worthy goals in this, one way or another.
It's highly likely a CoH-like game would take 2 to 3 years to just get off the ground, even with shortcuts. If things go wrong, like, oh, say, the economy, it could definitely take 2 or 3 times as long.
Open source/community designed is a BAD idea when putting together a project of this size.
On the topic of developing a new game: I have reviewed several commercially available game engines, and I've chosen one I like - and it has a similar zone design system to CoH! But I won't say too much what I've been planning or how far my really small team has gotten, because...
we'll settle for expressions of desire for favorable statistical variance.Stupid random number generator...
Someone whose ability to make business contacts seems sound actually contacted Cryptic about this. It seems they are willing to transfer the license.This is actually very encouraging, especially for a ground up recovery effort!
That shouldn't be so shocking really. This is a game engine, as opposed to IP--software as opposed to content. People might be unlikely to let go of IP, but this is a bit like DirecTV licensing their TVtop box. "I'm moving, I wanted a new box anyway, and the new renter wants my current box. Can I transfer it to his account?" "Of course you can!"
Open source/community designed is a BAD idea when putting together a project of this size. The only project I know of that's this large, and has no corporate backing, is the WINE project. Those of you who have watched it and/or been involved know that the WINE project is horribly unresponsive, and plagued with disagreements which have led to it being splintered into several branches. Imagine the destruction that would cause to an MMO! Several competing forks of the same game project, all with different client and servers, and just the act of downloading it and logging in is a hellish experience (anyone try to install WINE and succeed?).
Another problem with community owned is if everyone owns it, nobody does. Controlling mods and cheating will become impossible, and then the game would lose players fast. Maybe Apple's model (community created, corporate reviewed content) might work, but I'm not sure.
b) If I talk too much about the plan, there's always a chance a lot of effort and time will be put in and someone with more money and staff will steal the entire thing and get to market first
I've discussed this with other people, and the main problem--the one we simply cannot get around--is the amount of time it will take before a new CoH is ready for play in the most limited (think Atlas Park, Perez, Hollows and King's Row ONLY) version. Look how long it took before The Secret World (no relation to my "Secret World Chronicle" and we had the name first) was ready. It began production under a different name around 2004, changed the name to the current one in 2007ish, and only this year went live. That's almost 8 years (and 2 or 3 different studios) of production time. How many players are going to wait for ONE year, much less four to eight? Not many, is my bet. If we could get our hands on....oh....20 or 30 million dollars, we could speed that up. But the reality is this will be, like The Secret World, a slow, mostly part-time-only, undertaking. People gotta eat, and failing Tony V coming up with a lot of folks to pony up in the six figure range, there is no getting around it, the "studio" we create will be a fraction of the size of Paragon Studios and we would be doing absolutely everything from scratch.
2) There is a huge pool of people who are clearly willing to contribute time and effort. I think that could be leveraged. Of course, there is a limit to how much you can simply throw more people at a problem, but there are aspects of this project that could be parallelized, with the right coordination.
Private ownership was precisely the reason for the current situation. Finances change, and rights change hands whether we like it or not. If not NCsoft today, it could be EA or SOE tomorrow. The industry is rife with corporations acquiring rights only to bury them. But what is libre can never be taken away.
I'd strongly recommend that the seemingly separate efforts of TheManga & company and the Titan Plan Z/Sunset Forum be evaluated openly when the time is right. Whether the community grants its creative and financial power to an already-formed company or to a new Titan one, those first steps are going to have a huge influence on the end result. Closed negotiations and secret projects have their place in the world, but they don't mix well with an open community.
On top of that, with community ownership. If we want to have a way to have their say in the governance of the property? Cool. Outright ownership? Might be more difficult to justify. ESPECIALLY if we have real players with "skin" in the game. How do you tell a guy who's dropped six or seven figures on funding your game that, sorry, he's been marginalized by John Doe FreeToPlay's opinion?
...
Community vs private ownership? Private ownership with a way for the wishes of the community to factor into game governance. Possibly a player-elected steering committee that has the right to sit in on physical meetings of the company with regard to this game, and can opt to participate in online venues where governance-related decisions are made.
I do think comes November 30th the servers will be going down (I really hope I completely wrong).
I think - and have thought since Black Friday - that regardless of the final outcome, this is going to happen. The question is not whether or not the servers will go down. The question is whether or not they will come back up.
I think - and have thought since Black Friday - that regardless of the final outcome, this is going to happen. The question is not whether or not the servers will go down. The question is whether or not they will come back up. And if they do come back up, the next questions are:
I like that option. It gives the community both a sense of ownership and a close relationship with the developers on the other end of the software.
The question is not whether or not the servers will go down. The question is whether or not they will come back up.
4) If Plan Z proceeds ahead of schedule, and is capable of producing a compelling demo before I finish mine, so be it. I may or may not still produce my demo, if only because everything can be reused and recycled when it comes to 3D. :)
5) I don't hate open-source. I only say it's not appropriate for this type of project, starting out.
I hope that clears things up...
It still sounds like you're trying to produce something different than Plan Z, and would intend to try to take over the Plan Z work if you can produce a working demo before Plan Z does. I'm not sure that's the intent you're going for, because it does sound initially like you're planning on either directly competing or attempting to take over. I don't think either would go over very well, but I DO think that we'd like to have your skills involved with Plan Z should it be needed. Can we chat a bit in messages or a different thread and try to clear up the misunderstanding a bit better? :) (In the spirit of not wanting to hijack this thread, mind.)
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist. I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas"). My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them totake their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IPbe willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.
Wish me luck.
Long.... long shot in the dark, but I work with people that have the funds we need. I would need to know one thing before i even thought to approach any of them. What are the actual numbers? By that I'm asking how much did City of Heroes make and cost to run per quarter for the last few years. Truthfully, this is what any investor is going to need to know before taking the first step. These people are not fans. They don't love the game like we do. They are happy to put up money if it gets them a return on their investment. Yes they will take risks and this is a risk.emailed with questions.
So if someone has that information please e-mail me at chuckvick44@hotmail.com. I don't want guesses. I don't want what Ncsoft made annually. Just what the game makes and costs. Please include the source of the information.
After I get these I will talk to my co-workers.
Thanks
Don't let a thin language barrier stop you from posting, and while there are people working on trying to save the game, right now the most helpful thing we can do is 1) send physical letters to NCSOFT encouraging them to sell the game 2) email NCSOFT with the same requests & 3) play the game.
Don't lose hope, we've still got a couple of months and a lot of fight left, every new post I see here from someone that took the time & effort to come here from the official forums, or wherever just proves our point to NCSOFT (and/or potential investors) that our community is strong and dedicated.
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist. I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas"). My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them totake their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IPbe willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.
Wish me luck.
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist. I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas"). My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them totake their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IPbe willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.
Wish me luck.
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist. I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas"). My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them totake their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IPbe willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.
Wish me luck.
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist. I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas"). My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them totake their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IPbe willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.
Wish me luck.
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist. I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas"). My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them totake their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IPbe willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.
Wish me luck.
Long.... long shot in the dark, but I work with people that have the funds we need. I would need to know one thing before i even thought to approach any of them. What are the actual numbers? By that I'm asking how much did City of Heroes make and cost to run per quarter for the last few years. Truthfully, this is what any investor is going to need to know before taking the first step. These people are not fans. They don't love the game like we do. They are happy to put up money if it gets them a return on their investment. Yes they will take risks and this is a risk.These are, in fact, the numbers I'm trying to gather. My own approach will be to first talk to the potential investor and get permission to ask in their name, because I think that will work better. It is probably equally long a shot. So I wish you luck, good sir.
So if someone has that information please e-mail me at chuckvick44@hotmail.com. I don't want guesses. I don't want what Ncsoft made annually. Just what the game makes and costs. Please include the source of the information.
After I get these I will talk to my co-workers.
Thanks
*Suddenly tears up*
Kerowyn, Kerowyn, where are you going... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZsgM3FOOVM)
Ah, my favorite version, too. (grin) That Velgarth place has certainly inspired a lotta great music, hasn't it?
Err. You are right, SJG would be a natural fit. Unless he's changed immensely, there's probably an email address listed for him on their website, and he very likely answers it himself. The problem would be, I think you're vastly overestimating the potential for expansion they'd have. Well worth following up to see if I am right, if someone actually has direct contacts with him. Just don't get your hopes up; the traditional gaming industry is not exactly a cash cow outside of maybe Wizards of the Coast.
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist. I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas"). My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them totake their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IPbe willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.
Wish me luck.
I'm also a published writer/author, and would gladly and happily contribute creative content. Heck, I'd be supremely proud to do so!
Contacting SJG was Kheprera's idea, not mine. :) I just expanded it to see if it could be used to help save COH instead of just looking at it for Plan Z.
As far as potential for expansion...I think that would be something to discuss with them - It might be a genre they'd be willing to expand into, especially with a proven money-making product....
Another idea I had was Reaper Miniatures. I have a good relationship with them and can approach Ed Poole with the idea. Many Reaperites play or have played CoH, and if they can get a license to produce a line of minis... hitting the PnPRPG market can't hurt us.
Steve is a pretty good friend of mine. My question would be if he could afford this. The days when PandP gaming was a cash cow are long over....options for the rights to big literary properties for PandP gaming used to be in the high 5 and low 6 figures...now they are in the low 4 figures.
Still, if he wants to take it on he would have my assurance that I would pimp the hell out of it.
Cende, I second what Segev said; contact the Paragon Studios management right away. Two groups competing will only hurt as the price climbs due to a bidding war. Working together, we can do this.
Cende, I second what Segev said; contact the Paragon Studios management right away. Two groups competing will only hurt as the price climbs due to a bidding war. Working together, we can do this.
I'm not going into details, because I can't - it's business, and that's how it works, however, here's a small surprise.*just saw this*
In late August / early September, I started pulling the numbers for NCSoft, specifically focusing on Paragon Studios. The intent was to form a plan so that in early 2013, I could approach NCSoft about buying out Paragon Studios. It's something I'd been thinking of doing for a while; apparently I should have started a little earlier!
Obviously, things got a little rushed here. I'm not pleased in the least, because it's damn difficult to make your case when you don't look as professional as you need to. However, that being said - my company (as in, the one I own) HAS approached NCSoft with an offer to open negotiations. We did so about a week and change ago.
So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.
My question would be: did the Justice Department slap him with some kind of ban after the stupidity over the "Hackers" expansion for GURPS? Is he allowed to produce or distribute computer products? Otherwise, though he may not have the resources himself, would he be another link in the chain to finding or accumulating backers? (Apologies for how coldly analytical that sounds.)
I'm not going into details, because I can't - it's business, and that's how it works, however, here's a small surprise.That's great news! Now hopefully NCsoft will be reasonable and your company (and Paragon Studios?) can come to some kind of deal! :D
In late August / early September, I started pulling the numbers for NCSoft, specifically focusing on Paragon Studios. The intent was to form a plan so that in early 2013, I could approach NCSoft about buying out Paragon Studios. It's something I'd been thinking of doing for a while; apparently I should have started a little earlier!
Obviously, things got a little rushed here. I'm not pleased in the least, because it's damn difficult to make your case when you don't look as professional as you need to. However, that being said - my company (as in, the one I own) HAS approached NCSoft with an offer to open negotiations. We did so about a week and change ago.
So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.
It is easy to feel defeated. But no one is ever defeated until they give up.
I am Blaster! No matter how many times I may fall in battle, I will pop my tray of rez, I will use Rise of the Phoenix, I will hit the hospital, until the battle is won!
So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.
The latter, from the tone of the post and the general practice people have seen out of NCSoft. They're hunkering down and hoping this goes away. They are apparently talking to Paragon Studios, as we're hearing that negotiations are ongoing with them. Anybody who has a serious business proposal to help out is more likely to have success by approaching Paragon for information about how they can help/get involved.
I'm not going into details, because I can't - it's business, and that's how it works, however, here's a small surprise.
In late August / early September, I started pulling the numbers for NCSoft, specifically focusing on Paragon Studios. The intent was to form a plan so that in early 2013, I could approach NCSoft about buying out Paragon Studios. It's something I'd been thinking of doing for a while; apparently I should have started a little earlier!
Obviously, things got a little rushed here. I'm not pleased in the least, because it's damn difficult to make your case when you don't look as professional as you need to. However, that being said - my company (as in, the one I own) HAS approached NCSoft with an offer to open negotiations. We did so about a week and change ago.
So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.
Saw this now I hope both paragon and Cende can get together and make a good offer to NCsoft.
As far as what they've told me, no I haven't even heard as much as "Not interested, go away." Still working.
Regarding bidding wars or supporting Paragon, obviously I can't say much here, but let me say what I can as simply as possible so as not to be misconstrued:
a) I have no intention of getting into a bidding war with Paragon or anyone else. For one thing it's not good for the game, for another, I can't afford it.
b) Money is really complicated. Please don't ask about it.
b) If Paragon* is in closed negotiations with NCSoft, they may not be allowed to talk to me, and I don't want to corner them. I also don't know what they need. However, I'm more than happy to work out an agreement between whatever is left of Paragon and my own group. I don't presently have any way of contacting them, since all the email addresses *I* had for them ended in @paragon.com - and they're not checking those anymore for some reason.
*Paragon is, as I am using it here, the term for Brian and whatever's left of the management group that's currently in whatever negotiations that are happening with NCSoft. Is that the term in use generally?
As far as what they've told me, no I haven't even heard as much as "Not interested, go away." Still working.
Regarding bidding wars or supporting Paragon, obviously I can't say much here, but let me say what I can as simply as possible so as not to be misconstrued:
a) I have no intention of getting into a bidding war with Paragon or anyone else. For one thing it's not good for the game, for another, I can't afford it.
b) Money is really complicated. Please don't ask about it.
b) If Paragon* is in closed negotiations with NCSoft, they may not be allowed to talk to me, and I don't want to corner them. I also don't know what they need. However, I'm more than happy to work out an agreement between whatever is left of Paragon and my own group. I don't presently have any way of contacting them, since all the email addresses *I* had for them ended in @paragon.com - and they're not checking those anymore for some reason.
*Paragon is, as I am using it here, the term for Brian and whatever's left of the management group that's currently in whatever negotiations that are happening with NCSoft. Is that the term in use generally?
As far as what they've told me, no I haven't even heard as much as "Not interested, go away." Still working.
Regarding bidding wars or supporting Paragon, obviously I can't say much here, but let me say what I can as simply as possible so as not to be misconstrued:
a) I have no intention of getting into a bidding war with Paragon or anyone else. For one thing it's not good for the game, for another, I can't afford it.
b) Money is really complicated. Please don't ask about it.
b) If Paragon* is in closed negotiations with NCSoft, they may not be allowed to talk to me, and I don't want to corner them. I also don't know what they need. However, I'm more than happy to work out an agreement between whatever is left of Paragon and my own group. I don't presently have any way of contacting them, since all the email addresses *I* had for them ended in @paragon.com - and they're not checking those anymore for some reason. (Edit: That "for some reason" is ever so gentle sarcasm.)
*Paragon is, as I am using it here, the term for Brian and whatever's left of the management group that's currently in whatever negotiations that are happening with NCSoft. Is that the term in use generally?
Edit, about 2 hours later: I should really check my messages before posting.
Don't know where to post this or if it's the wrong section someone will move it but:
1. Please keep the media spreadsheet updated.
2. I think I've found a potential loophole...
Do we have that quote anywhere on the NCSoft COH pages anyone can screenshot or save the page of, as I feel it's definitely something we could use.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=na.cityofheroes.com%2Fglobal%2Fincludes%2Fimages%2Ftemplate-items%2Fheadings%2Ffreedom.jpg)
Guessing NCSoft approved that advertising... ;)
Don't want to rain on your idea, however people who ARE lawyers have already said NCSoft cannot be held to "play free forever" as stating "we will keep the game running forever." Sorry, but that dog won't hunt.
I understand but...
Look at that pic again.
Play for Free (Stop)
Forever (Stop)
Not "Play for free, forever."
"Forever." is marked as it's own sentence imho.
Just my 2 inf.
That dog still won't hunt.
Legally, this is equivalent to a "lifetime warrantee"
I can get a lifetime warrantee on a refrigerator, but if the company goes out of business, there's no one to honor that that warrantee and I'm out of luck.
I can play free "forever" does not mean the game will exist forever. It means I can play free as long as the game exists.
However you are perfectly free to spend several thousands of dollars on lawyers finding that out. Anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country and there are unscrupulous lawyers who will be happy to take your money and tell you that you have a case. The couple of honest lawyers (start my heart) who populate this board are telling everyone this tactic will not work.
Go ahead and sue. I've actually been involved in a legitimate case against my insurance company. Be prepared to watch every spare cent and spare bit of time you have sucked down into a black hole that is the legal accounting office, watch their legal counsel drag your reputation through the dirt, and in the end you will get nothing.
YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY, SIR! >.>They do need a "like" button here....
We had to sue. A year later, increasing depression (I was popping 3 prozac a day, my husband was popping 4), being told Larry's damaged drawings and paintings were "worth nothing", and having had the insurance companies lawyers read the gay "sex scenes" from the Herald-Mage books into the pre-trial record (I am not making this up. And I had to answer yes or no to whether I wrote them--it was obvious they were going to actually use these scenes as an attempt to prejudice a rural Oklahoma jury against us) and bring up every book or story I ever wrote with "Fire" "Flame" or "Burn" in the title as evidence that I was a pyro (I am not making that up either) we went into arbitration. We ended up getting back about half of what we had spent on rebuilding the studio and cleaning and saving what we could. Which means, essentially, we were now deeply in a financial hole, as well as a psychiatric hole.
That dog still won't hunt.
Legally, this is equivalent to a "lifetime warrantee"
I can get a lifetime warrantee on a refrigerator, but if the company goes out of business, there's no one to honor that that warrantee and I'm out of luck.
I can play free "forever" does not mean the game will exist forever. It means I can play free as long as the game exists.
However you are perfectly free to spend several thousands of dollars on lawyers finding that out. Anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country and there are unscrupulous lawyers who will be happy to take your money and tell you that you have a case. The couple of honest lawyers (start my heart) who populate this board are telling everyone this tactic will not work.
Go ahead and sue. I've actually been involved in a legitimate case against my insurance company. Be prepared to watch every spare cent and spare bit of time you have sucked down into a black hole that is the legal accounting office, watch their legal counsel drag your reputation through the dirt, and in the end you will get nothing.
YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY, SIR! >.>WILLY WONKA!!!!! ;D
That should've been a mistrial the moment they brought the sex books into it.
/me sings "Uprising" by Muse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8KQmps-Sog
I think I still have my script for a Praetoria video to this song...
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Back ON topic, Brian told me he hoped to have some news a little after midweek. Please note he said HOPED, so this is not a promise of anything.
I hope so. Good, or not, this waiting has been pushing my symptoms past where the Paxil can control
I hope so. Good, or not, this waiting has been pushing my symptoms past where the Paxil can control
For me, it's Absinthe...
Hey guys. Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.
We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.
Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.
I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially". Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.
In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!
I hope she is enjoying the keyboard that she won ;)
Hey guys. Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.
We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.
Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.
I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially". Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.
In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!
Now is the time when NCSoft, their PR firm, or both, will try to infiltrate this site with trolls/moles. We are clearly having an effect. They want us to "sit down, shut up, go away." This is well-known tactic dating back to the early days of union organizing and before.
Watch for new people that are posting nothing but defeatist, negativity and divisiveness.
Watch for people hauling politics into discussions and trying to start fights.
Report to moderators. Thread starters can self-moderate their own threads. See something that looks wrong, nuke it.
...poor little trolls. Don't they know we beat them up for their lunch money on a regular basis? >.>We beat them up before they cause problems. That's what heroes do ;)
We beat them up before they cause problems. That's what heroes do ;)Especially when they're holding a rave. No Supa-Trolls!
We troll the trolls in such a way they don't realize they're being trolled until their argument has been reduced into itty bitty microbes of dust.Meta-Trolling.
*gulp*
Politics? That is a bit of a (okay, a big) weakness of mine. I shall do my best to curb my instincts just in case.
So, out of curiosity, what makes "now" the right time for this sort of thing to start?
I addressed this in the FAQ thread, but I'll rehash here as well.
This is a very real tactic. If this is hurting NCsoft, they're going to do everything in their power to make it stop. It's no secret that Titan Network is our base of operations and account registration is free and simple. It'd only take a few minutes to register and post something discouraging. Given that it's so easy, and possibly effective, why wouldn't they give it a shot? We made them blink, we cannot pretend like they're ignoring us anymore.
Even if you want to write this sort of thing off as paranoia, it will not hurt you to keep a watchful eye. Above all, keep your spirits up.
so what is the state of the titan? I've been absent recently, any updates on the negotiations with NCSoft?
I could easily see a situation where we keep getting pushed back, as more of the pre-WoW-clone MMO's (where most of the visionary development was) fall, until we ALL wind up at the last remaining one, whatever that may be.
It's kind of a three-week thing. We lasted more than three weeks, and we are STILL getting attention. If anything, the attention is spreading, and it's beginning to creep over to their other products in a negative fashion. We didn't lose heart or momentum when all the "usual" ploys were tried to silence us, we didn't lose heart or attention when they silenced Zwill, and we're obviously focused. So time to try sabotage and scatter the sheep.
Not sure what you mean - that we, Plan Z, will keep getting pushed back? The plan for Plan Z is to have a few zones and missions and things get put out quickly, and then build up over time. We'll be smaller at launch than CoH was, but not by a *whole* lot.
I figure most of us know depression from an outright attempt to sow dissent. This is probably a saner bunch than 99% of the political organizations I've ever belonged to. Wait, that was praising with faint damns....
I just want people to be cautious, because for a group like ours, small, fighting an uphill battle, it is so easy to unthinkingly, and indiscriminately welcome anyone who joins.
Hey guys. Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.
We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.
Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.
I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially". Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.
In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!
Hey guys. Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.
We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.
Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.
I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially". Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.
In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!
The mention of other games and other gaming communities gave me the smallest hint of an idea.
What if we were to plan and carry out Unity support rallies in other games? Those folks who
play CO could organize a "Millennium City Supports Paragon City" event; players of The Secret World
could have a rally in New York protesting Orochi Corp's closing of City of Heroes, etc.
If we worked in cooperation with those games' communities to pull this off, we could gain several benefits
by doing this: we'd increase our visibility still further, educate gamers who have yet to have heard of our situation,
and demonstrate to the industry that our support is not simply limited to one game.
...poor little trolls. Don't they know we beat them up for their lunch money on a regular basis? >.>
That's why I am trying to stay on target with this, Segev. They have made it clear they have no intention of reviving the game (and at this point I am inclined to agree with others that have said that they can't within their own culture, because doing so would "prove" they were "wrong.")Yeah, Asian cultures (of the "oriental" variety, in particular) tend to be very big on Face - earning, saving, and avoiding loss thereof. There are two ways to "win" a social battle with people in such a culture. Well, three, but we aren't their social superiors, so the easiest-to-enact is not within our power.
All I want is to pressure them into releasing the IP to someone else. After that, I am "moderately" indifferent, and I certainly do not want to see them shit-can other NCSoft West employees or torpedo ArenaNet.
That doesn't mean that I am ever going to trust them with my money or heart again.
I moderate an internet forum and I *love* trolls. They're so predictable.
Condolences to those who've suffered the locker thing, then; thanks for indulging my curiosity. While I suffered my share of bullying, I was always too big for the more...physical kinds. Generally. So I was spared that.
Back on topic: What is AP33?
Also, can somebody who isn't on a work computer confirm whether or not you can actually create a new account in CoH/V at this time?
Back on topic: What is AP33?
Neat!
I actually didn't know that servers could have multiple instances of a public zone; I suppose it's more for client sanity than anything else, since the servers would have to maintain all the data and activity in all instances regardless.
Out of curiosity, does anybody actually have experience with people being stuffed in lockers? I know, a touch off-topic, but I'm wondering whether this is just a meme that is associated with bullying but doesn't really happen IRL, or if it is a thing that really does happen.
Neat!
I actually didn't know that servers could have multiple instances of a public zone; I suppose it's more for client sanity than anything else, since the servers would have to maintain all the data and activity in all instances regardless.
and its not just for client connections, remember the server has to keep track of where everyone is and what they are doing in order to tell the clients what they 'see'. Its as much to keep the server able to keep up with the data load as the client
Out of curiosity, does anybody actually have experience with people being stuffed in lockers? I know, a touch off-topic, but I'm wondering whether this is just a meme that is associated with bullying but doesn't really happen IRL, or if it is a thing that really does happen.
I also have a feeling that the narrower locker was actually built to prevent "stuffing."
I think a "Sister Cities" style rally wouldbe a good thing, but may be a little more interesting, logistically. I have about half a dozen other games installed from trying out the games as they went free, but I reasonably confident I'm in the minority, there.
But would we be welcome? I don't mean getting locals to join in, even briefly or jokingly. Unity was was initially mistaken for and misrepresented as an intentional disruption. Would those unsympathetic to us or unaware of us end up pissed at us for "disrupting their game?"
Well... yeah... if it was all one zone, many video cards would've had a meltdown.
I tried running Leandro's "5000" demo-recording and CoH crashed out on the load screen after about 10 minutes of caching.
Sorry I really didn't mean to cause unrest. I did read (honestly quickly and with some interruptions) all the 9 pages of previous posts and maybe I missed something (as I said, I'm not english, so please be kind, there is even someone on the other side of the atlantic ocean that would like to se CoH not closing down).
I understand that someone unloading a whole two screen of text as his first post is not the best way of saying hi, but please, I didn't mean to troll. I was quite saddened by being considered a "troll", but I was honestly trying to contribute with all the thoughts (and rants) I gathered in the latest three weeks. As I said I'm not a CoH subscriber, and I couldn't go on official forums and spoke my thoughts, but I wanted to contribute at least to focus the possible actions on realistic chances of success and on feasible alternatives. Last thing I'd like to happen is volunteers around the world be sued by NCSoft for patent infringements or IP violations or whatever else they may come up.
Again, sorry for the mess.
I understand that someone unloading a whole two screen of text as his first post is not the best way of saying hi, but please, I didn't mean to troll. I was quite saddened by being considered a "troll", but I was honestly trying to contribute with all the thoughts (and rants) I gathered in the latest three weeks.
I went back and read the chain. While I can't speak for the people involved, I really don't think the part about trolls was directed at you, especially since that was broken into a separate post.
I didn't see your post as particularly negative, just some pragmatic thoughts -- some of which had already been brought up somewhere in the huge haystack of recent traffic (good luck finding them), and some which hadn't.
There were some other posts around the same time in various threads that I believe were being discussed. It was just bad timing that it happened to be brought up right after the replies to yours.
Also, welcome to the forums!
Also, welcome to the forums!
Also, can somebody who isn't on a work computer confirm whether or not you can actually create a new account in CoH/V at this time?
Now now... we're heroes...why did I suddenly get a "Men in Tights, Toll Bridge" scene flash?
And geeks...
We troll the trolls in such a way they don't realize they're being trolled until their argument has been reduced into itty bitty microbes of dust.
That's why I am trying to stay on target with this, Segev. They have made it clear they have no intention of reviving the game (and at this point I am inclined to agree with others that have said that they can't within their own culture, because doing so would "prove" they were "wrong.")That's why a complete reversal was never going to happen (amongst other things). We're (western vs eastern) two totally different cultures and it's easy to forget that. Remember stories of people you know who have travelled? How in some places it's an insult to finish the whole plate of food (when you're the guest) while others expect you to belch as a sign of appreciation...
All I want is to pressure them into releasing the IP to someone else. After that, I am "moderately" indifferent, and I certainly do not want to see them shit-can other NCSoft West employees or torpedo ArenaNet.
That doesn't mean that I am ever going to trust them with my money or heart again.
You cannot create a new account in CoH/V, according to the latest official notice from NCSoft. I haven't actually tried to, but it would not surprise me that they turned that function off.
I'd love to find out if that was just a coincidental step in shutting the game down, or an tactical maneuver...I know I was about to drag a few people in for just that reason.
I can't imagine how many new people would be loading it up right now to see what the fuss is about. :roll:
IIRC you cannot create a new account just from the website, but you can create a new account if you have a serial code from a boxed version of the game
at least that is what i have heard once the announcement came
I Support Save City of Heroes/City of Villeins Stop This nonce right now we all love this game so please stop taring it down
A lot of PvP IO farmers had free accounts that only had 1-2 characters on it. Accounts they never use. If you wanted, you could start getting those accounts for people who want to try the game.Hm. That is an idea. It takes one more layer of organization, but...
I have my 2 paid accounts, but I also had 2 other free accounts with barely anything on them. I wouldn't mind giving those up. PvP IO farming lost a lot of it's weight with converters.
Tried that. "Code not valid."Yeah, those worked up until the 18th, I believe (when they gave their after-announcement announcement). Seems like they flipped the rest of the switches that day to fully prevent any such account changes.
Tried that. "Code not valid."
Pretty sure the FAQ said you can't even use a box serial code now to get a pre-existing Premium account back up to VIP.
Refunds for game cards or retail codes can only be processed if you have not already applied the cod to your account.
Seeing as you grossly misunderstand what "plan Z" is - it cannot require any permissions from NCSoft at all because it will not be using NCSoft IP, code, or anything else - and are assuming we're trying to "make offers" out of the blue rather than find these avenues to get a clue as to what the actual dollar amounts might be, I think your post misses the point entirely.
We're not "poking a hornet's nest." We're trying to be very civil and polite while being very visible and audible. We want them to sell the IP to somebody who wants to keep it running. We cannot know what offers are on the table nor who is making them (though we can make some educated guesses in some limited cases), so we are just doing our best to encourage NCSoft to side with us on this and sell the IP to somebody who does make a good offer.
If you do have suggested avenues, I am very open to hearing them. I would like to be, personally, more in touch with the ongoing process. So please do share. But don't accuse the forumites here of "poking a hornet's nest." They're not. They're going to exacting lengths to avoid such behavior.
Funny, I thought "Plan Z" was to reverse engineer the game? I've seen posts where basically using as much of the game as they could figure out was discussed. That could very well be copyright or trademark infringement depending on what is used and how. I'm not an expert on this, are you? I have a copyright / tm / ip attorney as a student here at my school and was going to see what he could say about it, but since you're so deadset that you know best, I'll just let it go.
As far as poking a hornets nest, the talk here hasn't been the most civil at all times towards NCSoft. There's been a lot of speculation, name calling, and talk of forcing them to do this or that and hurting their reputation. Not good talk if you actually want them to work with you in any sense. I know when people insult me, I'm a lot less likely to deal with them (look at the response you got in the above paragraph).
By all means keep going on the defensive and trying to tell me how much I don't know. Do this with everyone that doesn't agree wih the methods being used, and watch your resources dwindle.
There is - or was - an effort to reverse engineer parts of the game. I don't know what's become of it, nor do I know where the IP limits are. From what I recall, reverse engineering the SERVER shouldn't be hard, but reverse engineering the game itself would be extremely difficult, as well as much more iffy legally. For what content exists on our hard drives (i.e. the CoH client), forcing us to erase that will be difficult, although I think technically NCS is supposed to be able to.
The objective of Plan Z is to develop a completely new game that is in the spirit of CoH, but is our own, community made, community driven, game. Plan Z will have its own IP that will belong to Titan Network, and nobody else. Doing this will require money, but it's a different kind of fundraising effort than trying to buy the CoH IP.
This makes more sense. It would still be a good idea to see how close it can be made without having NCSoft come back legally and say it was based on the likeness of their game, which could still be an issue potentially. There's a line that really should be defined by an expert. Have discussions begun for an official fund and what expectations and assurances there will be?
How long do severance agreements typically last? I would suspect that they'd go at least until Nov. 30, if only to keep the lid on extra news leaking before NCSoft feels their hands are metaphorically washed of it.Depends on the company. The standard severance package where I'm at is one week of pay per full year of service plus accrued vacation, but no matter how long I was gone, I wouldn't be able to leak anything considered company proprietary information without subjecting myself to a lawsuit.
In that case, what might one reasonably expect the end of severance packages to allow MORE talk of?That'll be hard to say since I'm sure the NDA that goes along with the severance includes a "thou shalt not speak of the specifics of thine NDA" clause. We'll just have to wait and see what we find out and assume that anything else falls under the gag order.
I was just in game and i noticed somthing strange. . . a new costume set called Cybertech
In addition to what Tony said, might I suggest that you actually read the City Sunset forums *before* you start commenting on Plan Z, please? Thus far, every single point which you have brought up regarding Plan Z has already been considered and addressed, tabled, or is still in discussion there. :)
With the sheer amount of uninformed posts on this forum, you think *I* should be the one to read something before I post huh? Interesting. You have people trying to make causes to involve politicians, people trying to find ways to sue the company that owns the rights on one hand and trying to "force" them to give away those rights on the other, and people plain making a spectacle of themselves thinking they're doing good for what essentially boils down to a business proposition. Yeah, I should go read *before* I post anything.
True, NCSoft may not pursue any legal action if there is any reverse engineering or emulation. It depends on how they view us at that point, and how much we agitate them in the meantime. If push comes to shove, they're going to have much bigger muscles to put into a shoving match, and there are people trying to start the shoving now, on this very forum, in a very public way. Even if they don't have a strong enough legal recourse to win a battle that doesn't mean they can't bury anyone associated with it in legal issues. Who here can bankroll a defense for this kind of lawsuit that could potentially last years? How much of the funding for the plan would get eaten up by a legal challenge, and what would be left to even finish any development?
All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.
All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.
With the sheer amount of uninformed posts on this forum, you think *I* should be the one to read something before I post huh? Interesting. You have people trying to make causes to involve politicians, people trying to find ways to sue the company that owns the rights on one hand and trying to "force" them to give away those rights on the other, and people plain making a spectacle of themselves thinking they're doing good for what essentially boils down to a business proposition. Yeah, I should go read *before* I post anything.
True, NCSoft may not pursue any legal action if there is any reverse engineering or emulation. It depends on how they view us at that point, and how much we agitate them in the meantime. If push comes to shove, they're going to have much bigger muscles to put into a shoving match, and there are people trying to start the shoving now, on this very forum, in a very public way. Even if they don't have a strong enough legal recourse to win a battle that doesn't mean they can't bury anyone associated with it in legal issues. Who here can bankroll a defense for this kind of lawsuit that could potentially last years? How much of the funding for the plan would get eaten up by a legal challenge, and what would be left to even finish any development?
All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.
You're obviously pretty smart. I'll leave the arguments to other people, namely Tony. However, no one's going to take anything you say seriously or constructively when you start insulting them. I can understand why you're getting defensive, and I also understand that there are things people don't like to hear. Did you really think something constructive would come out of your pointed and malicious arguments? Or are you really just a troll?
Can we just limit our posts to being positive? If someone reads something that's looks as though it's out of line, maybe send them a PM. No need to distract from the status reports.
Funny, I thought "Plan Z" was to reverse engineer the game? I've seen posts where basically using as much of the game as they could figure out was discussed. That could very well be copyright or trademark infringement depending on what is used and how. I'm not an expert on this, are you? I have a copyright / tm / ip attorney as a student here at my school and was going to see what he could say about it, but since you're so deadset that you know best, I'll just let it go.
As far as poking a hornets nest, the talk here hasn't been the most civil at all times towards NCSoft. There's been a lot of speculation, name calling, and talk of forcing them to do this or that and hurting their reputation. Not good talk if you actually want them to work with you in any sense. I know when people insult me, I'm a lot less likely to deal with them (look at the response you got in the above paragraph).
By all means keep going on the defensive and trying to tell me how much I don't know. Do this with everyone that doesn't agree wih the methods being used, and watch your resources dwindle.
basically you can't legally sue anyone for stealing your concept if they create it themselves and aren't charging any money for it. freeware is the legal way to pawn NCSoft in this case if they should make the error of canning CoH.
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also you could sell the old content by saying "donate so much money to Phoenix city and you get the (enter content here) (example: statesman's cape costume part) for free!"
No worries, it sounds like you found the post that other folks are referring to. I'm going to lock the thread because I don't want this rumor getting legs. Some former Paragon staffers got hired by Cryptic. That's not surprising, since I know that some Paragon Studios people have kept in touch with their Cryptic colleagues over the years. For what it's worth though, I have a pretty good idea of how many were hired on, and it is an extremely underwhelming number--definitely not panic-worthy. To those that did get hired on by Cryptic, I wish them nothing but the best of luck (and no, I'm not being facetious); a lot of really cool and talented people work there. And hey! Food on the table!
This is not true. Infringement is infringement; it doesn't matter if it's not for profit or for profit.
oh, I see sorry to bother then, I had heard of people getting away with this sort of thing before by being not for profit. but I guess if the NCSoft owned characters are used that is the main issue. Unless paragon owns the character rights? then technically NCSoft would only own the code.
oh, I see sorry to bother then, I had heard of people getting away with this sort of thing before by being not for profit. but I guess if the NCSoft owned characters are used that is the main issue. Unless paragon owns the character rights? then technically NCSoft would only own the code.
However: You cannot copyright or patent the rules of a game. So the mechanics and whatnot could be duplicated. Some common words for power such as "Teleport" would probably be okay, though if you pick non-generic words and phrases such as, I dunno, "Sky Splitter," you might start getting into dicey territory.
I have been despondent since the notice of closing down a game we have played for over 6 years and made many lifetime friends. It is so encouraging to know there is this kind of fight going on. Keep it up! Please! If only Tony W (Pumbumbler/Selene) could join the fight. He was one of the oldest players and he left due to the change in management. He would fight the good fight now with us.
So, how much does it cost to buy a game that is just being "closed down"? I am unemployed (after being layed off from a bought-out company), but if I hit the lottery, I surely will make them an offer. :)
Thanks so much for all your efforts. I will also join this...
ArianaLady
I'm not totally discouraged yet because you gotta remember the servers are owned by NCSoft, and then there's the store, our accounts, and a ton of other stuff. If there are negociations for a buyout, they would have to figure out how to move all sorts of things. It could take several months, even after Nov 30th.Yeah, listen to this guy. Negotiations would be incredibly complex for this kind of thing. If they're selling the IP/code, all of their servers and data would come with it. With that comes the other companies those are run through. It's a mess. So the timeframe here isn't our enemy. They're working on it.
And I really have to think that if they weren't interested in selling, they would have said so in the beginning.
Yeah, listen to this guy. Negotiations would be incredibly complex for this kind of thing. If they're selling the IP/code, all of their servers and data would come with it. With that comes the other companies those are run through. It's a mess. So the timeframe here isn't our enemy. They're working on it.
It may be that the "how" includes ownership issues, depending on what the "objects" are that contain the bits that CoH needs vs. stuff universal to NCSoft's system. It is easy from the conceptual level, but legalese likely snarls up precisely what needs to be done.
It may be that the "how" includes ownership issues, depending on what the "objects" are that contain the bits that CoH needs vs. stuff universal to NCSoft's system. It is easy from the conceptual level, but legalese likely snarls up precisely what needs to be done.
The parties' goals are clear. NCSoft wants to wash its hands of the game entirely and not have the hassle and responsibility of running it any more while getting the highest possible price for the property. Paragon wants the right to develop the game on its own terms without NCSoft's interference while paying the lowest possible cost.This much is cool. Everyone involved wants the same overall end result. We are allies in this, and that is probably the most important step to finding any possibility of a mutually-agreeable situation.
-How much is this thing really worth, anyway? I don't see Blue Book values for MMO's quoted very often.This is a hard one. I don't really have a way of making even a mildly educated guess on it, but I know it involves projected profits from the continued running of the game, costs of running it and developing more stuff for it, and potential value from being able to sell the IP to a higher bidder in the future (which is, in turn, weighted against the likelihood of such a higher bidder ever materializing).
- Once the parties agree on a value, is it calculated in dollars or won? What if the exchange rate fluctuates violently once agreement is reached?This one is really just a matter of preference and expected strength of the currency in question. Since the dollar is the reserve currency of the world, it is probably the better choice, and just to nail the value at that dollar amount. I can certainly see counter-arguments, but this does not seem like a point that would be that sticky compared to most of these others.
- How long does Paragon have to pay? If it pays over time, does NCSoft retain a mortgage-like interest in the property?Given NCSoft's desire to wash their hands of this product's continued running, a one-time payment by the end of the year is probably the best bet. Honestly, if I were at the table, myself, I would be looking to sign the check by Nov. 30. A lot here depends on what Paragon Studios's financial backers are willing to do. It is here that, if I could get some inkling of the actual dollar amounts involved, I would be pressing much harder with my tenuous connections to see if I can't sell it. Because the less "you have until..." there is in the payment, the better for all involved.
- If "all rights" to the game are sold, can NCSoft still mention it in non-CoH advertising (e.g., "We sponsored the development of the innovative City of Heroes in 2004" in a Blade & Soul ad)?My suggestion here would be a non-exclusive license, renewed yearly and with a one-month deadline upon renewal not being performed, for NCSoft to use CoH PI in its corporate representations, provided they make no false claims about current involvement and make no promises about the future of CoH IP. If NCSoft wants to wash their hands completely, they simply take the first year to clean everything out. If they don't, they retain the license and use what they feel is important to use. They can't sell the license (so if somebody else wants to say "we sponsored the development..." they need to buy NCSoft, not just the rights to make that claim), but can maintain whatever level of pride they wish for the involvement they DID have.
- How long does NCSoft have to get rid of all references to and mentions of CoH in its websites and other materials (many are gone, but what about those pictures of Statesman)?
- Since the "new" Paragon hasn't formed yet, what happens if the parties agree to a sale, then it never forms? Does the IP revert to NCSoft? To all the potential devs as a collection of individuals? Somewhere else?Two possible solutions here:
- If someone sues Paragon and/or NCSoft about CoH, who defends the case? If the plaintiff wins, who pays? Does the kind of claim matter? (This is one reason I'm so touchy about people saying they want to sue. No one wants to buy a lawsuit.)Set a cut-off date of Nov. 30 (or the date of the transfer, whichever seems more reasonable). Any suit involving promises made or damages done before then is NCSoft's responsibility; any suit involving promises made or damages done thereafter is Paragon's. While this could get sticky if somebody wanted to sue NCSoft for an already-made-at-this-point promise that Paragon didn't want to honor, I think NCSoft has already made all the preparations it needs to regarding those with its preparations for closing down everything on Nov. 30.
- What if Paragon wants to develop a new game based on the CoH property, either the game code (e.g., it's a game about zombie hunters, but it uses the CoH character progression system) or the story elements (e.g., a totally new fantasy MMO set in Oranbega at its height)? Can it do so free and clear? Or does it have to pay NCSoft a royalty? Or can it not do that at all?Because the nature and spirit of this deal is to let NCSoft wash its hands of this and let Paragon continue development as its own entity, I suggest the "Paragon can do these things free and clear" option. They are buying the IP and all associated properties. NCSoft was not planning to use them anymore, anyway, so trying to piecemeal it out is a bit foolish.
- How can NCSoft be sure its ex-employees aren't using proprietary information in maintaining an NCSoft-less CoH? And if it can't, how much more should it charge to release the IP? (This is the issue Segev raised.)My answers and suggestions to this one would require that I knew much more about what NCSoft PI is "in jeopardy." It is tricky, especially if NCSoft suspects Paragon would actually deliberately attempt to steal proprietary information during a transfer of "just CoH stuff" from NCSoft servers to separate Paragon-only ones.
- If either party breaches the contract, what should the damages be? In what forum should disputes be resolved (an especially sticky issue in an international negotiation like this)?This one is outside my experience enough that I can't specify "what damages" there should be. From what little I know, however, if it gets to breach-of-contract, it's going to go to court, and courts notoriously decide the awards for damages. WHERE it will be resolved is an interesting issue. My knee-jerk response is "where the defendant is." This protects both companies if they want to USE the IP in some way that the other tries to prevent. Given the goal is mostly for one to wash their hands while the other uses it, the potential loss of exclusivity is of lesser concern than the potential denial of ability to use.
I don't envy the people working on this. It looks simple to us from the outside, but there are as many potential issues as there are potential problems going forward. That's why I'm being extremely patient and hoping both parties can get what they want. That is the way that we will get what we want, too.Despite my total outsider status, I actually do wish I could be participating in this. I think I would enjoy it, and I am proud enough of my problem-solving skills to think I could genuinely help. Sadly, I know that my position is just wrong to enable me to get in there. Still, I will offer and volunteer at every opportunity on that very off chance.
All that is out of our hands. The best thing we can do is to continue to demonstrate that the game has a dedicated fan base that makes it both worth selling and a good buy. Keep it up, everyone!Indeed. I have been very impressed by what everyone's done so far!
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up. And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."
Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up. And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."Oh, definitely. Like I said, I tackled them because it was something that amused me to do. Not because I thought I was brilliantly solving problems to which those directly involved had yet to find solutions. That I'd enjoy trying to solve the actual issues is also true, but that's not my job and they've no reason to heed me.
Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.
- What if Paragon wants to develop a new game based on the CoH property, either the game code (e.g., it's a game about zombie hunters, but it uses the CoH character progression system) or the story elements (e.g., a totally new fantasy MMO set in Oranbega at its height)? Can it do so free and clear? Or does it have to pay NCSoft a royalty? Or can it not do that at all?
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up. And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."
Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.
Win or lose, I think the COH community has proven just how special it is.
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up. And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."
Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.
I thank everyone who spelled out on this post how challenging something that seems so simple on those of us on the outside and not in this industry these things can be. One thing I drew out from Thor's Assassin's post is that it seems as of the core of the Paragon Studios staff seems focused, dedicated and they want to see CoH continue even more than we want to. They have spent a part of their lives on this project.
I also suspect there are negotiations that have to happen about CoH 2. I cant see CoH lasting long term even if all the rights to it were secured. There would have to a future beyond what we have now and hopefully our characters would transfer over into that new project. That is imperative as well IMO and needs to be figured out as well.
The one thing I agree we need to do is not go negative and look like a bunch of angry game nerds, that wont get us anywhere.
Call it a leap of faith, but I really believe that something will happen to save the game.
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. One thing at a time. Worry about CoH first, then think about CoH2. (whatever that is, anyway)
Each house-sized chunk of money MUST come from an individual, not a pool of individuals.
I can actually understand that last. No one wants to have to account for/to 10,000 people who pitched in $50 each.
That requirement could possibly kind of be worked around by forming a new Limited Liability Corporation (or using one that already exists). The LLC acts in the place of an individual as a funding source, and handles all the fund raising in the background.
@Joshex To answer your question, the level of investment that is being sought is:
The-price-of-a-nice-house-in-a-good-neighborhood-in-Los Angeles size, not the-price-of-a-good-used-car size.
AND
Each house-sized chunk of money MUST come from an individual, not a pool of individuals.
I can actually understand that last. No one wants to have to account for/to 10,000 people who pitched in $50 each.
Hm. *checks the price of a house in Los Angeles* Pity I don't know the area and thus don't know if a "good neighborhood" is "anything that shows up on this search" or "$1M+".
But at least I have a range.
The question is, can I find the means...
Well. We'll see. Now at least I have...a range.
(regarding Cider)It is the technology used for the Mac port. Transgaming however licenses this technology to anyone, hell, I have a license. It is based on WINE, and works quite well.
I am unfamiliar with this one.
Not sure what thread to post this, but this one seemed right.
Can someone tell or direct me to a thread where it states what NCSoft gains by shutting down CoH? I'm writing a persuasive essay, saying that CoH shouldn't be shut down, and I need advantages and disadvantages, but I can't think of any advantages for NCSoft. I've got plenty of disadvantages both from personal experience and what I've read on this forum (especially the Testimonials thread).
Any info would be apretiated. Thanks!
LT. Couper
Realignment of company focus was the (possibly slightly paraphrased) original reason. There have been a lot of ideas postulated on the forums, but that's the company's only official statement to that regard.