Titan Network

Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: TonyV on September 22, 2012, 05:46:38 AM

Title: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 22, 2012, 05:46:38 AM
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 22, 2012, 05:49:39 AM
My talents, my abilities, are limited, Tony...but you've led us fairly thus far and earned my faith, respect, and confidence. Whatever option winds up being the future of CoH and the community, you have my pen at your disposal, for it is the mightiest weapon in my arsenal.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 22, 2012, 06:06:12 AM
My tenuous options and connections - and I must stress that they are long shots - will need more information than I now have to be...persuadable. I need to get in touch with either NCSoft or Paragon Studios people who can share a bit more about exactly what the pitfalls facing the current negotiations are. Money is only a problem because I would be asking them for major investment. Their main focus and expertise is not in the gaming industry, but they are very good at getting a company running in an administrative side. From my research and sources, their main success at this is knowing how to facilitate the business administration issues where a property is not adept while otherwise leaving it to do what it did that made them want to buy it.

I want to see CoH continue, and I would love to be involved in seeing it happen because I see tremendous potential for my oh-so-tenuous connection. But I need enough to be taken seriously on all sides. And I am aware that my current position lacks the firm ties that would make me seem a valuable source. So, any suggested contacts who can share information are requested. I will strive again to reach out through the networking tools I have to get this info, but I hope some better-informed forumites might have some suggestions. Until I get some traction, I cannot honestly claim to represent any agency other than myself. I hope to change that with some traction.

As always, I am impressed with what Tony and the Titan Network have accomplished so far. They have been probably the largest source of information I've been able to glean thus far.  If I can help, I hope to learn what is needed so I may offer my skills and my long-shot contacts with the best chance of success. If not...I hope others can help sufficiently with their much more-appropriate resources.

Sincerely,
Segev
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Zolgar on September 22, 2012, 06:11:25 AM
I have no connections in this industry, nor do I have financial means.. or even the skills to really write.

... but if you ever need something lit on fire, let me know! ;)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 22, 2012, 06:14:43 AM
I have no connections in this industry, nor do I have financial means.. or even the skills to really write.

... but if you ever need something lit on fire, let me know! ;)

...no really, he's a professional! (No. Really.)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: NecrotechMaster on September 22, 2012, 06:21:04 AM
you guys at titan have been doing an amazing job coordinating this whole rescue effort, i would offer leads if i could but i have basically no connections
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Electric-Knight on September 22, 2012, 06:47:34 AM
Thanks, Tony.
I'm just settling down after a long day and night, so all I am going to say right now is that I am right there with ya. My outlook and interest is not phased at all and I'll be ready to do whatever we can through November 30th and beyond, if need be.
My own skills aren't much good for us other than possibly some artistic and/or thoughtful inspiration (hopefully I'll have some CoH related stuff finished soon to maybe motivate people a bit and/or keep the word out there).
I've been busy working on a new album and multimedia show of my own, but I am trying to fit in time to get some videos and such done to help our cause.

Anyway, just wanted to show my support and that I'm here for the long haul.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: emu265 on September 22, 2012, 06:50:52 AM
Thanks for the post, Tony.  I was wondering what the state of Titan was, given the recent news.  The three options we have aren't the best.  But... I am comforted by the fact that reverse engineering the game is possible, and I see it as a last resort if we can't figure anything else out. 

Being said, I'd like to see Paragon City in the hands of qualified individuals dedicated to seeing it live and thrive.  I believe the best people for the job would be us, the community, and Titan Network.  However, that seems to me to be the most arduous option.  I believe the perfect middle ground would be acquisition by another studio.  Risky, but I feel it's worth it. 

Again, thanks for calming my nerves Tony.  Back to work, everyone!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: blue storm on September 22, 2012, 06:58:46 AM
Thanks Tony.

re: solution 3 (reverse engineering)
1/ NCSoft effectively issued cease and desist letters to Infinte Rasa, which was a private effort to create Tabula Rasa private servers after the game had been shut down...

2/ traffic analysis is probably very important in that matter and the more data you collect, the better, should we all start capturing data with wireshark for example (I have a couple of sessions already captured myself) ?

3/ if traffic analysis is important : should we complement each pcap file with a demofile (to ensure proper understanding of what was actually going on ?

4/ how should this information be transmitted to the team in charge of reverse engineering ?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: downix on September 22, 2012, 07:30:10 AM
It is easy to feel defeated. But no one is ever defeated until they give up.

I am Blaster! No matter how many times I may fall in battle, I will pop my tray of rez, I will use Rise of the Phoenix, I will hit the hospital, until the battle is won!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SithRose on September 22, 2012, 07:37:17 AM
You know where I'm working, Tony. You've got my red pen and all. (I'd say axe, but that's not so helpful when working with computers...)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: The-Hunter-JLJ on September 22, 2012, 08:11:30 AM
You know where I'm working, Tony. You've got my red pen and all. (I'd say axe, but that's not so helpful when working with computers...)

You're a software guy, I can tell. An axe is essential on the hardware side...
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Premmy on September 22, 2012, 08:11:43 AM
Why exactly is the potential for Paragon Studios to go independent with outside financial backing(I.e. not necessarily from a  game  publisher) not on the table at the moment?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Codewalker on September 22, 2012, 08:27:40 AM
Why exactly is the potential for Paragon Studios to go independent with outside financial backing(I.e. not necessarily from a  game  publisher) not on the table at the moment?

That's Plan A, the "perfect world" scenario that Tony mentioned he was hoping for, but is looking less likely as time goes on. It's still possible, either with or without the City of Heroes IP, but if it's without then they'd be limited to making other games from scratch.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SithRose on September 22, 2012, 03:25:56 PM
You're a software guy, I can tell. An axe is essential on the hardware side...

I have in fact used an axe to demolish a computer before. ;)

It was a non-functional computer and the purpose was to get the obnoxious upstairs neighbors to turn their rap down because I had a migraine....but it worked. For several months.

I like hardware better than software. This may or may not be a holdover from having to tell people to open their cupholder to insert the installation disc for their scanner...more than once. No, it's not an urban legend.

I think I'll stick with the writing, editing, and general "But why is this a good idea" questions over in Plan Z. And sewing capes.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Mentalshock on September 22, 2012, 03:44:46 PM
We knew from the beginning that our chances of success were very slim, but all that does is make the effort even more significant.  Whatever comes, we can be content that we tried.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 22, 2012, 03:51:55 PM
I still think the "Paragon Studios reformed with support from a parent company" solution is the most likely to succeed. I have gotten little to know feedback here to my inquiries, so I will go back to other methods of prodding directly. Unfortunately, I have no clue how to prod the Paragon Studios side of the negotiations, and worry that NCSoft is the wrong side of it to be looking for information from. Better, I think, to see what Paragon Studios needs from a potential partner than to open up what might be seen as a competing bid (which is NOT the goal).
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Moonfyire101 on September 22, 2012, 03:53:49 PM
I will be of no help here becuase coding gives me a headache. I can build and fix a computer but i won't program one...Sorry, if there is anything i can do besides coding count me in!

Also, yes axe, it comes in handy now and again.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Beodren on September 22, 2012, 03:54:04 PM
I was troubled by all the problems with IP, and mentioning it would be one big problem... BUT!
As an European i was amused by one term in American law ,,fair use" which allowed to distribution derivative work (including animations and games...) under banner of fair use. One of them being library archivisation and other research.

As insane as it may sound, player driven game is something new, usntable and would we form a common front, typical research project, about social behavior, as many people here noticed it is breakthrough as far as gaming communities go.

Of course, it would be problematic would we aim for profit from the game, but, forming of foundation (as I believe, one of the mods suggested) with following idea in mind, could be an option.

I of course, would be glad to chip in for such foundation. With all tools created by Titan it could be in depth research, gaining a bit of insight into ability of gamers to co-ordinate and create interesting enviromnet based on first hand experience instead of analysis and following market trends. I also think one of the articles noticed how innovative solution it is.

Stil, as an outsider, I am not sure how far we could go with that, but as far as I am concerned, especially backing up our choice of lore picked with great community following (therefore most promising to success) I would dare saying we have a chance. One of law specialists could be very useful here though ^^'

Also, please pardon me if I was babbling or harming english language, as it is my second language. I would appreciate any form of feedback.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Moonfyire101 on September 22, 2012, 04:11:35 PM
If the game is FTP yes, we can host it as fair use. The second we charge for anything we're in deep trouble. Perfect example of this is the server for Diablo 2 which you can play the "Laz Mod". Laz mods the game to add new content and a website hosts the servers for us to play. That's a nice thought but we wouldn't beable to pay anyone for new upgrades and stuff. Guess playing it at all is better then not though. And i'm not sure how people can afford to keep the servers up and running if they host for free but somehow they do.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Paindancer on September 22, 2012, 04:19:47 PM
Well worded, Tony.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: dwturducken on September 22, 2012, 04:28:14 PM
Thank you, Tony.  It always makes me cringe when I see someone post asking you or your team for status, because it really indicates that they haven't ready through the relevant threads. Everywhere on the forum, when someone has had information that they are allowed to share, it is always up right away, and we appreciate that.

Distilling it and putting it all in one place is an enormous help.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Omega Mark V on September 22, 2012, 05:50:58 PM
Sounds good Tony.

Hoping for the prior two options to the latter.

Omega Mark V, out.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 22, 2012, 05:52:16 PM
I have discussed the state of NCSoft with a few people in game - one thing I didn't realize before is Nexion's part in all of this.  It changes things drastically.

If NCSoft is indeed trying to make itself attractive for investment or a buyout, their aim will be to cut costs without harming their portfolio.  In other words, they MUST hang on to the City of Heroes IP, because selling it shrinks their portfolio.  But operating it costs probably more than any other game they have (due to the semi-independent Paragon Studios in high-salary California) so the IP is more valuable than the game itself.  CoH is more valuable to NCSoft dead than alive.

That means getting NCSoft to sell is going to be very difficult to near impossible, UNLESS their investors (Nexion) can be convinced that the company will be just as or more valuable without it.  This means a DOUBLE negotiation to make it happen, which is far less likely, and may be the reason Paragon seems to be failing to gain independence.

Licensing is pretty much the only way to go here now.  NCSoft that way can show to investors that they still have the IP in their portfolio, and they also don't bear any of the operating cost.  The licensing percentage is good for NCSoft, but irrelevant to an investor, so it could be called a fallback measure to keep NC's profits up until it does find investment. 

So it's an arrangement highly benificial to NCSoft, with one caveat:  It's possible that the family running NCSoft wants out, and that's why they're making it attractive for a buyout.  If that's true, they will not want any contracts, licensing or otherwise, tying them down; because everything they're doing is to maximize the amount of cash they walk away with at the end of the buyout process.

It's still worthwhile to try, though, and if I could contact the Paragon business team, that's what I would suggest they pitch as well. 

One huge caution though: If NCSoft does get bought out, or heavily leveraged, it's highly possible City of Heroes will be shut down way earlier than the Nov 30th ending date - possibly as early as Sep 30th, since it's the end of the quarter.  So if we're aiming for an operations licensing deal, we're running out of time.

Side note:  I think NCSoft knows what I'm up to.  I tried to get the contact info of their Business Affairs contact, and they won't even give that to me.  They have effectively tried to turn and blind eye/ear to any offers, but I'll see if I can get through anyway.









Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: LT. Couper on September 22, 2012, 05:53:59 PM
Through playing a large variety of games over the years, and no small part from CoH, I decided to major in game design in college. So if worse comes to worst and we decide to make a successor to CoH, then hopefully I might be of some use in the years to come
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Burnt Toast on September 22, 2012, 06:19:01 PM
I will continue to fight the fight and do everything I can to #SaveCoH :)


Until I hear something more...I will assume negotiations are still on going..and that is my beacon of light :)


The sun has not set yet... and still plenty of time for positive things to come out of all our efforts.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 22, 2012, 06:36:25 PM
I have discussed the state of NCSoft with a few people in game - one thing I didn't realize before is Nexion's part in all of this.  It changes things drastically.

If NCSoft is indeed trying to make itself attractive for investment or a buyout, their aim will be to cut costs without harming their portfolio.  In other words, they MUST hang on to the City of Heroes IP, because selling it shrinks their portfolio.  But operating it costs probably more than any other game they have (due to the semi-independent Paragon Studios in high-salary California) so the IP is more valuable than the game itself.  CoH is more valuable to NCSoft dead than alive.

That means getting NCSoft to sell is going to be very difficult to near impossible, UNLESS their investors (Nexion) can be convinced that the company will be just as or more valuable without it.  This means a DOUBLE negotiation to make it happen, which is far less likely, and may be the reason Paragon seems to be failing to gain independence.
Interesting. It always puzzles me that a company would be considered valuable for an IP they've actively damaged by shutting down its customer base. But if it's a buy-out NCSoft wants, then there are a number of things one could potentially do.

1) Offer them enough for that IP that the "hit" to their portfolio (and reduction in their cost-to-be-bought) would not be any greater than the amount they'd make from selling the IP.

2) Talk to Nexion or other potential investors in NCSoft, and persuade them to hint that a functioning profit-making IP is more attractive than one that's sitting idle and likely to lose its customer base due to inactivity.

3) Look into finding a buyer for all of NCSoft. This is a huge long-shot, as NCSoft is not going to be inexpensive. It would also not be nearly the profitable maneuver that simply acquiring CoH and all relevant properties would be, since it would involve all the extra "dead weight" if one did not go in with the goal of really owning and running ALL of NCSoft's games. I am not certain that it would be any healthier for NCSoft to be run from America than it is for Paragon Studios to be run from Korea.

4) Attempt to form that company (preferably Paragon Studios's name, at least, and employees and such) independently of NCSoft and license the IP. This is a stop-gap, however, because if NCSoft is bought out, the potential loss of the license could put us right back where we now are. It would, however, at least give us room to be negotiating directly with the end decision-maker that NCSoft is trying to court.

Option 4) seems the most likely to work, to me, though I would prefer 2 or 3, personally. 3) would be a strange one, and may result in putting others in the position CoH fans now face. So, looking at 4), if NCSoft's main concern is having the IP without having to pay to keep it running, a nominal licensing fee should be negotiable.

Licensing is pretty much the only way to go here now.  NCSoft that way can show to investors that they still have the IP in their portfolio, and they also don't bear any of the operating cost.  The licensing percentage is good for NCSoft, but irrelevant to an investor, so it could be called a fallback measure to keep NC's profits up until it does find investment. 

So it's an arrangement highly benificial to NCSoft, with one caveat:  It's possible that the family running NCSoft wants out, and that's why they're making it attractive for a buyout.  If that's true, they will not want any contracts, licensing or otherwise, tying them down; because everything they're doing is to maximize the amount of cash they walk away with at the end of the buyout process.
In this case, if it's just "the family" that owns it that wants to cash out, buying the IP won't hurt if we can offer enough to cover the 'shortfall' it would cause in the buy-out price.

It's still worthwhile to try, though, and if I could contact the Paragon business team, that's what I would suggest they pitch as well. 

One huge caution though: If NCSoft does get bought out, or heavily leveraged, it's highly possible City of Heroes will be shut down way earlier than the Nov 30th ending date - possibly as early as Sep 30th, since it's the end of the quarter.  So if we're aiming for an operations licensing deal, we're running out of time.

Side note:  I think NCSoft knows what I'm up to.  I tried to get the contact info of their Business Affairs contact, and they won't even give that to me.  They have effectively tried to turn and blind eye/ear to any offers, but I'll see if I can get through anyway.
Hm. I have also gotten nothing from the people there I've tried to contact, even through highly-regarded business networking methods.

Is their CEO part of the "owning family?" It may be worthwhile to directly contact him if so.

Is there indication that Nexon is likely to buy more of a share in NCSoft, or is this just speculation based on them buying up to nearly 15% in June?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Elfin on September 22, 2012, 06:48:04 PM
Hello Tony Thanks for the update. Anything I can do to help I am with you. I may not be a leader but I will ba a loyal soldier. Long Live Atlas 33 on #savecoh
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Stefan Zubal on September 22, 2012, 06:48:28 PM
Thank you TonyV.
Clear state of the union. Reality bites.

What would the clear feasibility of approaching a studio not to copy CoH but remake it...not sure if I am stating this correctly. Not necessarily a CoH2 .... but something based on what we liked and some of our pipe dreams. Willing to be part of something like that...no matter the wait.

torch is lit and still burning

~Z
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: AbandonedChild on September 22, 2012, 06:53:49 PM
Just an idea for income to support the game.
Remember that "Cats" program or whatever it was called? A kitten or cat of users design would randomly interact on the desktop, user could vary level of interaction.  People love their characters in COH if they could buy a DVD or CD with their favorite character, or several disks with other characters that would interact with the environment on their desktop they would.

Imagine a cranky blaster who hadn't been interacted with for awhile blasting away the Yahoo home page, or whatever.

People would buy it, people would want to log on to the game.

AbandonedChild
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Stefan Zubal on September 22, 2012, 06:59:07 PM
uh ...disregard my post..just found Phoenix city. I am a bit behind in my forum readings

~z
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 22, 2012, 08:02:18 PM
What would the clear feasibility of approaching a studio not to copy CoH but remake it...not sure if I am stating this correctly. Not necessarily a CoH2 .... but something based on what we liked and some of our pipe dreams. Willing to be part of something like that...no matter the wait.

I don't know if anyone else is, but I am definitely investigating it.  And I'm a software developer.  :)

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: CapaDevans on September 22, 2012, 08:28:16 PM
TonyV - thank you for the update. I appreciate everything you and the team are doing.

TheManga - that was a great analysis; somewhat disheartening but superbly written and covering all the issues. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Pheadora on September 22, 2012, 09:05:03 PM
Thanks Tony and Titan Network for all your hard work. Thanks for keeping us updated.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 22, 2012, 09:08:14 PM
For what it is worth, I'll put my storytelling talents into the pot.  If any iteration of CoH can be got up and running, I'll storyboard content gratis, based on the existing canon.  I have a lot of experience in writing in other peoples' story canon (Andre Norton's WitchWorld, Anne McCaffrey's Brainships, C.J. Cherryh's Merovingia, Robert Adams' Horseclans, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar, Wendy and Richard Pini's Elfquest, Keith Laumers' Bolos, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover, and those are just the ones I did professionally and got paid for).  I'm not real good at turning story into mission-arcs--as witness the agony I went through on the Diana Tregarde/Guest Author arc--but I can give you plot, character and dialogue.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 22, 2012, 09:24:15 PM
For what it is worth, I'll put my storytelling talents into the pot.  If any iteration of CoH can be got up and running, I'll storyboard content gratis, based on the existing canon.  I have a lot of experience in writing in other peoples' story canon (Andre Norton's WitchWorld, Anne McCaffrey's Brainships, C.J. Cherryh's Merovingia, Robert Adams' Horseclans, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar, Wendy and Richard Pini's Elfquest, Keith Laumers' Bolos, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover, and those are just the ones I did professionally and got paid for).  I'm not real good at turning story into mission-arcs--as witness the agony I went through on the Diana Tregarde/Guest Author arc--but I can give you plot, character and dialogue.

As can I, though VV's talents are, obviously, much more polished. ;)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: padathir on September 22, 2012, 10:29:54 PM
- And, of course, there's the usual silence out of NCsoft.

There sure is. I think it is 100% clear by now that they don't intend on discussing this with "mere" customers.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Gothica on September 22, 2012, 10:42:47 PM
Thanks, Tony, for that very organized and thorough analysis.

I want to second what you pointed out about wishing the devs well. It would be just plain unreasonable and petty of us to expect them to sit around for a few months or weeks, with families to feed and bills to pay, to see what happens with NCSoft. For that reason I knew on the day of the announcement of the closing of the studio that no matter what happened, due to inevitable changes in the dev staff (even if NCSoft had reversed its decision almost immediately), things would be different. There was nothing anyone could have done. Let's just focus on saving as much as we can.

As to what I can do: Published author here, too. My two weaknesses are plot and character, which is why I'm a historian--in my field those two things come supplied.  :)  But if someone wants to provide those two things, I can do the rest. I can turn it into a coherent dramatic narrative and produce dialogue.  (Dialogue I have a good ear for, since I have to plow through tons of dry stuff to find interesting quotations that get the point across to the modern reader without being quaint or incomprehensible.) I can also copy-edit the whole thing, whether I write it or not (though we'd want more than one editor looking at everything, of course). In addition to the in-game dialogue and narrative and backstories and such, I can write pitches and proposals as well.

If we're thinking of doing anything that involves IP rights, we'll probably want to get expert opinion. I have some very good legal contacts in the IP field as well; maybe they'll even give me special rates. My own copyright studies were long ago, but I have seen a couple of statements about fair use above that raise a flag or two for me. (Not that those statements are wrong--just that we want to be darned sure that we know the state of the law before we do something that could expose us to liability.)

A question regarding reverse-engineering the server (another red flag for me there, btw): Who owns the game engine? If not NCSoft, is that engine licensed to NCSoft exclusively? If not, and we got a license for said engine, then NCSoft would presumably have no claim against us for that degree of engineering, at least. But even that I would want to run by the lawyers. If you're talking about a property that's worth millions even when it's shut down, you want to cover every possible base.

Final point: Perhaps set up a second email address for crowd funding as well? I can't go six figures but I can pitch in something.

Thanks again, and keep up the excellent work. I stand ready to assist in any capacity I can.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: eabrace on September 22, 2012, 10:52:11 PM
Who owns the game engine?
Cryptic

Quote
If not NCSoft, is that engine licensed to NCSoft exclusively?
It's licensed in perpetuity, but we don't have any information (that I'm aware of) regarding whether or not that license is transferable along with the IP.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Kheprera on September 22, 2012, 11:03:01 PM
I'm no published writer, beyond what I write for work, but I am a proofreader.  That skill I can offer.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Terrafan on September 22, 2012, 11:08:26 PM
Cryptic
It's licensed in perpetuity, but we don't have any information (that I'm aware of) regarding whether or not that license is transferable along with the IP.

It would be absolutely shocking to me if the license WERE transferable.   

I remember a number of years ago when West End Games had the Star Wars RPG license.  They were in financial difficulty, and wanted to see it to WotC.  Lucasfilms swooped in and informed them that no, the license was non transferable.  WotC then tendered a bit to buy West End Games, and again Lucasfilms pointed out in the contract that any change of ownership would revoke the license.  Hence the license went into the either.  WotC tried to negotiate to get it, but was flat out told by lucasfilms "it takes us more money to pay the lawyers to deal with this license than we make from it.  Bye."

Now, not all licenses are equal, but as someone who works in the pen and paper gaming industry, and has talked to many license holders, I'm informed that a non transferability clause is pretty much part of the legal boilerplate that's standard in not just the P&P Gaming industry, but in the Video Gaming industry, and many many others.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Pseudo42 on September 22, 2012, 11:16:58 PM
Should private servers be initiated, I propose we rename everything...

City of Titans?

Just a thought...

Pinnacle City...
Lady Justice...

I know, I know, I know...it's not the same... but still.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 22, 2012, 11:19:36 PM
Quote from: Gothica
I want to second what you pointed out about wishing the devs well. It would be just plain unreasonable and petty of us to expect them to sit around for a few months or weeks, with families to feed and bills to pay, to see what happens with NCSoft.

Yes, I third that. In fact, tomorrow, my best friend and I, the person whose friendship CoH has helped me maintain, will be playing STO.

We may love the characters, both player-made and developer-made, of CoH, but ultimately they're all fictional creations. The devs themselves, our real heroes, are real people.

Personally, I'm rather happy that some of them have found their way back to Cryptic, since Cryptic is what parented Paragon Studios in the first place, and the most likely company I can think of to either make CoH2 or a spiritual successor thereto. I hope they all get good jobs.

*

By the way, VV, I only just recently read the post where I learned just who you really are. You are a heroine to all of us! :)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 22, 2012, 11:44:45 PM
It would be absolutely shocking to me if the license WERE transferable.   


Someone whose ability to make business contacts seems sound actually contacted Cryptic about this.  It seems they are willing to transfer the license.

That shouldn't be so shocking really.  This is a game engine, as opposed to IP--software as opposed to content.  People might be unlikely to let go of IP, but this is a bit like DirecTV licensing their TVtop box.  "I'm moving, I wanted a new box anyway, and the new renter wants my current box.  Can I transfer it to his account?"  "Of course you can!"
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 22, 2012, 11:58:24 PM
Someone whose ability to make business contacts seems sound actually contacted Cryptic about this.  It seems they are willing to transfer the license.

That shouldn't be so shocking really.  This is a game engine, as opposed to IP--software as opposed to content.  People might be unlikely to let go of IP, but this is a bit like DirecTV licensing their TVtop box.  "I'm moving, I wanted a new box anyway, and the new renter wants my current box.  Can I transfer it to his account?"  "Of course you can!"

Why would they say no to continued licensing revenue? :P
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Badaxe on September 23, 2012, 12:19:53 AM
Thanks for the update Tony, the news is somewhat expected but at least we all now have a clearer picture of what's happening and can appreciated your efforts.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: mikenovember on September 23, 2012, 01:02:49 AM
I'm a decade plus software program manager and developer - with some of that in the game/entertainment area of software. 

I think the 3 options you're presenting - if we can't have "Plan A", the next best option is to recreate COH in 'our image' if you will.

Some of the arguments presented of CoH being 'long in the tooth' are precisely why a reboot with a completely new COH crafted by a fan driven development effort would actually work, and work well - even getting investors via something akin to Kickstarter. 

There are a very LARGE number of PMs, Devs, Designers and others who play CoH who if we could locate them, organize them - would have the skills to help with this.  I know because I've run into a few while playing and talked shop with several over the years.  They do exist - many btw, work for other game manufacturers and software companies. 

I keep hearing talk of the game engine license needing to be transferred - but why not just buy a completely new license to go with the work. 

I know it sounds daunting but the fact is  - it's not.  It is expensive.  It does require work.  But it's not really all that impossible.  Maybe it's because I've worked in software dev for as along as I have but I really don't see the problem others seem to see with this.  Yeah,  the project needs to be carefully planned, investors lined up, a solid set of project plans with devs, designers, testers all those things that go into a game - and realistic projections for the first three years on cost.  If you show that the games been making money without any real PR (which NC hasn't put in an effort there in years), that its still holding it's own after 7+ years and the current level of fan support and I seriously see there being a good shot at get investors and building a new CoH. 

It obviously - for legal reasons can't be 'CoH' but I think everyone is seriously over estimating how much of CoH's IP is actually non-replicable, and how much of it needed updating or isn't really an owned IP but a concept - which can be reworked and needed to be anyway.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Olantern on September 23, 2012, 01:20:17 AM
Tony, thank you for the one-stop update.

I'll offer whatever help I can.  (Check your PM's.)  While I'm not a legal specialist in the areas we need, I am experienced in explaining law to people who know nothing about it.  I also have some contacts who can be of help in things like entity formation and possibly IP issues.  As I've said elsewhere, this sort of thing needs to be set up before we can think about fun things like game development.

I also have a background in writing.  I've published several articles and electronically published a novel.  I have training in creative writing.  I can deal with setting, plotting, characterization, and most importantly, giving and taking criticism.  I've received very positive comments on my AE work (see @Djinniman for examples) and had just begun sketching out a mega-arc when the announcement hit.  If I can help out with development once a business plan has been set up, please let me know.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Terrafan on September 23, 2012, 01:21:08 AM
Someone whose ability to make business contacts seems sound actually contacted Cryptic about this.  It seems they are willing to transfer the license.

That shouldn't be so shocking really.  This is a game engine, as opposed to IP--software as opposed to content.  People might be unlikely to let go of IP, but this is a bit like DirecTV licensing their TVtop box.  "I'm moving, I wanted a new box anyway, and the new renter wants my current box.  Can I transfer it to his account?"  "Of course you can!"

It's wonderful then that cryptic would be open to that!  That was something I was worried about, and I think that's awesome that they'd consider that.  Thumbs up to them.

And the reason they wouldn't want it transferable (without their say so) ?  It's technical IP (software is just as much intellectual property as story and a world design).  It's Cryptic's in house game engine (albiet the first generation of it) , and as such, it's basically a 'trade secret'.  They woudln't want details of it's workings being made public or given to someone who they dont' want to see it. 
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SkyStreak on September 23, 2012, 01:55:54 AM
I seem to remember a podcast years ago (Jester's Court maybe?) where they were talking about how Cryptic's big strategy for the future was to use 'the Cryptic Engine' to make quick and easy content creation for any/all of their future games, but alos make it available as a toolset to other developers to create their own games. 

I believe this was prior to (or right around) CO's launch, and I most definitely remember there being a website for the Cryptic Engine.

Obviously, this was way before Pefect World entered the equation, so who knows where that idea went, but it was definitely soemthing Cryptic had plans for back in the day.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 23, 2012, 01:59:56 AM
I'm a decade plus software program manager and developer - with some of that in the game/entertainment area of software. 

I think the 3 options you're presenting - if we can't have "Plan A", the next best option is to recreate COH in 'our image' if you will.

Some of the arguments presented of CoH being 'long in the tooth' are precisely why a reboot with a completely new COH crafted by a fan driven development effort would actually work, and work well - even getting investors via something akin to Kickstarter. 

There are a very LARGE number of PMs, Devs, Designers and others who play CoH who if we could locate them, organize them - would have the skills to help with this.  I know because I've run into a few while playing and talked shop with several over the years.  They do exist - many btw, work for other game manufacturers and software companies. 

I keep hearing talk of the game engine license needing to be transferred - but why not just buy a completely new license to go with the work. 

I know it sounds daunting but the fact is  - it's not.  It is expensive.  It does require work.  But it's not really all that impossible.  Maybe it's because I've worked in software dev for as along as I have but I really don't see the problem others seem to see with this.  Yeah,  the project needs to be carefully planned, investors lined up, a solid set of project plans with devs, designers, testers all those things that go into a game - and realistic projections for the first three years on cost.  If you show that the games been making money without any real PR (which NC hasn't put in an effort there in years), that its still holding it's own after 7+ years and the current level of fan support and I seriously see there being a good shot at get investors and building a new CoH. 

It obviously - for legal reasons can't be 'CoH' but I think everyone is seriously over estimating how much of CoH's IP is actually non-replicable, and how much of it needed updating or isn't really an owned IP but a concept - which can be reworked and needed to be anyway.

I've discussed this with other people, and the main problem--the one we simply cannot get around--is the amount of time it will take before a new CoH is ready for play in the most limited (think Atlas Park, Perez, Hollows and King's Row ONLY) version.  Look how long it took before The Secret World (no relation to my "Secret World Chronicle" and we had the name first) was ready.  It began production under a different name around 2004, changed the name to the current one in 2007ish, and only this year went live.  That's almost 8 years (and 2 or 3 different studios) of production time.  How many players are going to wait for ONE year, much less four to eight?  Not many, is my bet.  If we could get our hands on....oh....20 or 30 million dollars, we could speed that up.  But the reality is this will be, like The Secret World, a slow, mostly part-time-only, undertaking.  People gotta eat, and failing Tony V coming up with a lot of folks to pony up in the six figure range, there is no getting around it, the "studio" we create will be a fraction of the size of Paragon Studios and we would be doing absolutely everything from scratch.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SkyStreak on September 23, 2012, 02:08:20 AM
I seem to remember a podcast years ago (Jester's Court maybe?) where they were talking about how Cryptic's big strategy for the future was to use 'the Cryptic Engine' to make quick and easy content creation for any/all of their future games, but alos make it available as a toolset to other developers to create their own games. 

I believe this was prior to (or right around) CO's launch, and I most definitely remember there being a website for the Cryptic Engine.

Obviously, this was way before Pefect World entered the equation, so who knows where that idea went, but it was definitely soemthing Cryptic had plans for back in the day.

I just did a quick search using the Wayback Machine and found reference to the Cryptic Animation Rig from 2007:

Quote

Cryptic Studios Releases Cryptic Animation Rig   
Free Cryptic Animation Rig Now Available Under the GNU General Public License
LOS GATOS, CA - May 11, 2007 - Cryptic Studios, Inc., an independent developer of massively multiplayer online games, announced today its proprietary Cryptic Animation Rig (Cryptic AR) is now available free for download under the GNU General Public License.

"Our goal is to foster a community of animators by providing them the power to generate animations without having to worry about supporting a toolset. Since we were already developing the rig for our core technology team, we decided to release it to the public under the GNU GPL," said Shayne Herrera, Art Development Director for Cryptic Studios. "We feel that the development and gaming communities will benefit greatly from a professional tool like the Cryptic AR."

Cryptic AR allows animators of all experience levels to familiarize themselves with the same tools used in a professional development environment. Unlike other free animation rigs, Cryptic AR is not an approximation of production tools, but the very tools currently being used to produce next-gen game visuals at Cryptic Studios.

"We decided to add the ability to switch and create character skins called 'IDs' (identities), " said Sean Burgoon, animator and creator of the Cryptic AR. "Cryptic AR version 1.0 ships with three IDs and we plan to release more on a regular basis. We are encouraging user-submitted IDs through the animation community we are creating on our web site."

The Cryptic AR web site will also have forums to serve as the community home for aspiring AR animators. The forums will act as a place to inspire continued creativity in users and support animation needs.

Cryptic AR version 1.0 is now available for download at www.crypticar.com.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 23, 2012, 02:09:07 AM
And I would still write for it, were I allowed the honor.

Make no mistake, there would be huge, nearly insurmountable challenges posed against us...but we could prevail, if we're all willing to step up. Here's hoping negotiations go well, however, and none of this becomes necessary.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: uninventive on September 23, 2012, 02:33:49 AM
If my opinion matters (and it doesn't), the closer I would get to November 30th when it's no longer legal to keep the City of Heroes client as an end user, the more I would consider merging the Reverse Engineer/Spiritual Successor groups if it doesn't look like a private server (with zero content, but regardless) is possible.  Understandably, the content and systems discovered by the Reverse Engineer group would mean that we wouldn't have clean-room development in the Spiritual Successor effort (clean-room meaning an assurance that 100% of the Spiritual Successor code has NOT originated from City of Heroes program, but as one of my friends in software development has said more eloquently than I can, "there's only so many finite possible ways to hammer a nail into wood.") but the exercise in doing so could prove invaluable in the Spiritual Successor camp to understand how Paragon Studios solved the problem.

My dream (probably means as much as my opinion) would be to see the Spiritual Successor camp make the world's first Open-Source based MMORPG.  Granted, this means a few things: 1) Open Source is not a business model (I didn't say Free/Libre, FLOSS, or endorse Richard Stallman here, digital socialism aside there's hundreds of licenses possible to use out there, or with lawyer friends, just spin your own up... The Titan License 1.0 :P), just a developmental one.  2) Open Sourcing the development is one thing, the IP is still yours (Titan Network).  It's still possible to run the game on Titan Network's developed IP and license (charge players) for the use of your game content (rather than the client/server, which is free of charge and open source) so a profit is still realized to keep improving the system.  3) If this were to happen, then the clean-room approach is mandatory on the Titan Network MMO to prevent NCSoft from shutting the effort down before it begins.

But it would also mean something else: it's possible to keep your core 40+-person paid staff to develop the Titan Network MMO, it's features and services, while having the world community at large to make engine improvements to use in not only Titan Network's game, but other games created by other groups.  We can have our superhero MMO, another group can make an apocalypse MMO title, another can do swords and sorcery, another can make their own spiritual remake of Earthbound.  (Granted, each group would have to handle their own IP, and not infringe on existing properties.)  Games starting to get off the ground can seek out Titan Network for co-location, hosting, or admin support, or strike up a business agreement and officially become a Titan Network title.

I'm sure better thinkers have rehashed this in other ideas/sunset threads, just riffing off of the State announcement.  I do agree that it's been made abundantly clear that NCSoft is through with us, in one way or another.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: uninventive on September 23, 2012, 02:41:05 AM
I have in fact used an axe to demolish a computer before. ;)

It was a non-functional computer and the purpose was to get the obnoxious upstairs neighbors to turn their rap down because I had a migraine....but it worked. For several months.

Best post I've read yet.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: ukaserex on September 23, 2012, 02:46:47 AM
I've discussed this with other people, and the main problem--the one we simply cannot get around--is the amount of time it will take before a new CoH is ready for play in the most limited (think Atlas Park, Perez, Hollows and King's Row ONLY) version.  Look how long it took before The Secret World (no relation to my "Secret World Chronicle" and we had the name first) was ready.  It began production under a different name around 2004, changed the name to the current one in 2007ish, and only this year went live.  That's almost 8 years (and 2 or 3 different studios) of production time.  How many players are going to wait for ONE year, much less four to eight?  Not many, is my bet.  If we could get our hands on....oh....20 or 30 million dollars, we could speed that up.  But the reality is this will be, like The Secret World, a slow, mostly part-time-only, undertaking.  People gotta eat, and failing Tony V coming up with a lot of folks to pony up in the six figure range, there is no getting around it, the "studio" we create will be a fraction of the size of Paragon Studios and we would be doing absolutely everything from scratch.

I'd like to share an anecdotal experience that may, or may not encourage you. Way back in 2003, when I was a grad student, I made extra money (and saved some cash, too) by writing a restaurant review column for the college paper. Trying to stay away from the chain restaurants, I stumbled upon a place that was by far one of the worst restaurants I could have ever visited. However, the hostess (who turned out to be the owner) was charming - very charming. The chicken wings I ordered apparently were  86'd (they ran out earlier) and the cook left the restaurant to go to Sam's Club to get some more...well, I'm digressing, sorry. To make a wonderfully lengthy story much shorter, I ordered a beer from the bar - and with the dynamite bartender behind it, I found myself coming back with friends later in the week. That return visit went so well, I became a regular, as did another 100-200 people. The husband of the aforementioned hostess/owner was behind the bar and had incredible personality. He couldn't remember anyone's name, but when someone was out of work, or had just graduated, he would defer the costs of their tab for whenever it was easier for the guest to pay it. Whether that was 1 week, 1 month, it really didn't matter to them. Well, the place burned down - the owner of the building was apparently about to be foreclosed on, and he burned it down, along with their inventory. It took these good people 4 years to save up enough cash to reopen, but they have, and I can still spot most of those old regulars when I visit for some of the worst food imaginable. (I stopped drinking - and it's the pub that most everyone goes there for. They really know how to make people feel like part of the family.)

When a community loses it's meeting place - true- folks will scatter a bit and things won't be the same. However, if the next thing to replace CoH is several years out, I've little doubt that most of the folks that were subbed will find their way to it.

That being said, I realize that not everyone is part of the Christian faith and this is probably not a welcomed comment by everyone, but please be aware that Christians believe we are made in God's image - and we share other characteristics of God, too. Although we cannot speak things into existence, in a peculiar way, we do have an impact on things with our words. (Self-fulfilling prophecy ring a bell for anyone?) If we can just believe that a solution to saving CoH is possible and imminent, it is not without the bounds of possibility for this to happen. I see and read about a lot of things that happen that were not at all likely or probable, yet they happen just the same.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Soundtrack on September 23, 2012, 03:35:45 AM
That being said, I realize that not everyone is part of the Christian faith and this is probably not a welcomed comment by everyone, but please be aware that Christians believe we are made in God's image - and we share other characteristics of God, too. Although we cannot speak things into existence, in a peculiar way, we do have an impact on things with our words. (Self-fulfilling prophecy ring a bell for anyone?) If we can just believe that a solution to saving CoH is possible and imminent, it is not without the bounds of possibility for this to happen. I see and read about a lot of things that happen that were not at all likely or probable, yet they happen just the same.

After reading the Testimonials thread started by Ms. Lackey, and being so deeply moved by the stories presented there, I feel quite comfortable praying for some type of resolution to present itself. For many (a LARGE percentage) this game is/was/will be a lifeline.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Vulpy on September 23, 2012, 03:43:28 AM
Although we cannot speak things into existence, in a peculiar way, we do have an impact on things with our words. (Self-fulfilling prophecy ring a bell for anyone?) If we can just believe that a solution to saving CoH is possible and imminent, it is not without the bounds of possibility for this to happen. I see and read about a lot of things that happen that were not at all likely or probable, yet they happen just the same.

I like to look for commonalities in human experience. A belief in the power of positive ideation is almost universal, and increasingly supported by scientific research. Positive thoughts and sentiments lead to positive action, which is the most likely way to attain positive results. That is something that should be true regardless of culture, creed, nation, or religion.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 23, 2012, 03:47:51 AM
After reading the Testimonials thread started by Ms. Lackey, and being so deeply moved by the stories presented there, I feel quite comfortable praying for some type of resolution to present itself. For many (a LARGE percentage) this game is/was/will be a lifeline.

For those who aren't of the Christian faith or who otherwise don't believe in various deities, we'll settle for expressions of desire for favorable statistical variance.  Or as some put it, wish us luck.  ;)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 23, 2012, 03:48:27 AM
I've discussed this with other people, and the main problem--the one we simply cannot get around--is the amount of time it will take before a new CoH is ready for play in the most limited (think Atlas Park, Perez, Hollows and King's Row ONLY) version.  Look how long it took before The Secret World (no relation to my "Secret World Chronicle" and we had the name first) was ready.  It began production under a different name around 2004, changed the name to the current one in 2007ish, and only this year went live.  That's almost 8 years (and 2 or 3 different studios) of production time.  How many players are going to wait for ONE year, much less four to eight?  Not many, is my bet.  If we could get our hands on....oh....20 or 30 million dollars, we could speed that up.  But the reality is this will be, like The Secret World, a slow, mostly part-time-only, undertaking.  People gotta eat, and failing Tony V coming up with a lot of folks to pony up in the six figure range, there is no getting around it, the "studio" we create will be a fraction of the size of Paragon Studios and we would be doing absolutely everything from scratch.

I agree completely with Victoria's assertion, if only because I investigated this myself.  The Secret World is an extreme example, because it was plagued with turnover, funding and studio problems, and I believe a change in game engine after it had already been started.  But nowadays, that seems to be the rule rather than the exception when you're not George Lucas with a few hundred million sitting around.  It's highly likely a CoH-like game would take 2 to 3 years to just get off the ground, even with shortcuts.  If things go wrong, like, oh, say, the economy, it could definitely take 2 or 3 times as long.

Meanwhile though, let me try to address several other posts on the subject at once:

Open source/community designed is a BAD idea when putting together a project of this size.  The only project I know of that's this large, and has no corporate backing, is the WINE project.  Those of you who have watched it and/or been involved know that the WINE project is horribly unresponsive, and plagued with disagreements which have led to it being splintered into several branches.  Imagine the destruction that would cause to an MMO!  Several competing forks of the same game project, all with different client and servers, and just the act of downloading it and logging in is a hellish experience (anyone try to install WINE and succeed?).

Another problem with community owned is if everyone owns it, nobody does.  Controlling mods and cheating will become impossible, and then the game would lose players fast.  Maybe Apple's model (community created, corporate reviewed content) might work, but I'm not sure.

As for "legal" steps, I happen to have a game/publishing studio!  It's registered as an LLC, and was being formed in order to produce an unrelated 3D game sometime in the near future (which is why I was testing game engines as well) for portable devices.  That may come in handy.

On the topic of developing a new game:  I have reviewed several commercially available game engines, and I've chosen one I like - and it has a similar zone design system to CoH!  But I won't say too much what I've been planning or how far my really small team has gotten, because...
a) I'm still afraid I'll develop an ugly case of foot-in-mouth disease if nothing comes of it, or something happens preventing it;
b) If I talk too much about the plan, there's always a chance a lot of effort and time will be put in and someone with more money and staff will steal the entire thing and get to market first; and
c) I do NOT want to overshadow the CoH buyout/licensing efforts - the new game effort is a long-term plan because even if CoH is saved, its near death means its days are numbered, and I'd like to possibly have a replacement ready when that time comes.  In fact, I'd prefer if CoH were saved first because it would buy the time needed to put some real design into a new game.

Ask me questions about it if you'd like, but I'll only be able to give limited answers until it gets closer to a functional demo.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 23, 2012, 04:02:31 AM
For what it is worth, I'll put my storytelling talents into the pot.  If any iteration of CoH can be got up and running, I'll storyboard content gratis, based on the existing canon.  I have a lot of experience in writing in other peoples' story canon (Andre Norton's WitchWorld, Anne McCaffrey's Brainships, C.J. Cherryh's Merovingia, Robert Adams' Horseclans, Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar, Wendy and Richard Pini's Elfquest, Keith Laumers' Bolos, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover, and those are just the ones I did professionally and got paid for).  I'm not real good at turning story into mission-arcs--as witness the agony I went through on the Diana Tregarde/Guest Author arc--but I can give you plot, character and dialogue.
That is quite generous of you. I really hope we're all in a position where this can happen; I'd love to see what you do with it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 23, 2012, 04:04:20 AM
I myself am not Christian (that ship sailed over a decade ago) but I am not offended if one wishes to offer prayer in accordance with their chosen faith or spirituality.

Part of the reason is because I have seen the power words possess on our world. It's part of what inspired me to be a writer in the first place. Can we use words to create things? Yes. Authors do it all the time, when they craft the magnificent worlds we read about and get lost in. Can we use words to influence or enchant those around us? Yes! A well-presented speech or well-written entreaty has changed the very course of history more than once.

With that in mind, I implore each and every one of you to take the following words to heart.

One way or another, what City of Heroes has created, will not die.

When you get disheartened, when you face despair, I want you to look at yourself and repeat those words, and let them echo in your heart, because it is the absolute truth. What City of Heroes has created will not die.

I won't let it. Neither should you. That's something anyone, of any faith can get behind, I think.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Soundtrack on September 23, 2012, 04:05:27 AM
For those who aren't of the Christian faith or who otherwise don't believe in various deities, we'll settle for expressions of desire for favorable statistical variance.  Or as some put it, wish us luck.  ;)

Tony, I'll pray, wish you all luck, and if you'd like, cross some fingers and rub a rabbit's foot if you'd like. :)

I admit to feeling a bit discouraged...but I also remember what they say... "It's always darkest before dawn."
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 23, 2012, 04:16:46 AM
When a community loses it's meeting place - true- folks will scatter a bit and things won't be the same. However, if the next thing to replace CoH is several years out, I've little doubt that most of the folks that were subbed will find their way to it.
They will, but I think you've stumbled onto a key component. The community around it will have a lot of cohesion if the fan base finds a new place to gather while they wait. Titan Networks' web site(s) are obviously one possible location, and doubtless some activity will continue here, but events, activities, etc. in support of it likely will be important, as well. Cosplay at conventions, fanfiction (especially in the legal derivative-works varieties), and even pen-and-paper style role playing games run through play-by-post, IRC, or at people's local gaming stores or in their basements would all be good ideas. LARP events at gaming and comic conventions could be fun, especially if you could get limited license to have Statesman or Positron show up. Or even Lord Recluse or Nemesis.

We've seen in this crisis moment how well this community responds to events. This sort of thing could help. (For those who are interested, there is an RPG almost custom-made for running games like CoH called Mutants and Masterminds. Third Edition is pretty solid, mechanically, in my experience, and definitely does well capturing superhero genre style play.)

Why do I advocate striving to do this? Because any effort to rebuild CoH in the future, should things not shake out as we'd all like them to to permit continued (or minimal downtime) running of CoH as-we-know-it, will require an active fanbase to make it attractive, to make it come faster due to earning the attention of those who would invest in such a project.

That being said, I realize that not everyone is part of the Christian faith and this is probably not a welcomed comment by everyone, but please be aware that Christians believe we are made in God's image - and we share other characteristics of God, too. Although we cannot speak things into existence, in a peculiar way, we do have an impact on things with our words. (Self-fulfilling prophecy ring a bell for anyone?) If we can just believe that a solution to saving CoH is possible and imminent, it is not without the bounds of possibility for this to happen. I see and read about a lot of things that happen that were not at all likely or probable, yet they happen just the same.
I know that the more I've prayed, the more I've been able to get serendipitous contacts and discoveries regarding this. My own interests may not be as a player (I can't really afford the time for an MMO), but I am interested in seeing this work, and I hate to witness something so many people love die so pointlessly. And just discovering this board, I've made multiple advances in my understanding of the situation. Even if it is not God's intention that I should have a role in this, I appreciate how He has helped me to learn, and I am sure He will be there for all of us in this event such that we will come out of it stronger. And maybe it will be in His plan that things will work out as we hope. I know, if those of us who do share a belief in Him pray, He will help each of us find a way to achieve worthy goals in this, one way or another.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: kgiesing on September 23, 2012, 04:29:15 AM
It's highly likely a CoH-like game would take 2 to 3 years to just get off the ground, even with shortcuts.  If things go wrong, like, oh, say, the economy, it could definitely take 2 or 3 times as long.

While I think that's a reasonable assessment, there are several factors that I think shouldn't be ignored.

1) Starting by replicating an existing, successful system is a *lot* easier than literally starting from nothing.  There's a lot of information, analysis, and planning that went into CoX that would not be lost.

To draw a point of comparison: I once had a hard drive failure kill a week's worth of very intense work (I'm a developer, so this was code).  I recovered from that in half a day.  While I didn't *feel* like my week had been spent in analysis and false starts, it turned out that the raw output was only a fraction of my effort.  I'm not saying CoX would be easy to recreate, by any means, but I don't think this effect would be trivial either.

2) There is a huge pool of people who are clearly willing to contribute time and effort.  I think that could be leveraged.  Of course, there is a limit to how much you can simply throw more people at a problem, but there are aspects of this project that could be parallelized, with the right coordination.

Which brings me to...

Open source/community designed is a BAD idea when putting together a project of this size.

I'm not a huge proponent of open source (I once told a colleague to his utter shock and dismay that I thought the open source movement was a clear failure).  However, I think the main problem open source projects have is a lack of clear leadership.  When clear leadership is established and followed, it *is* possible to make great gains: look at Linux.  In this case, IMHO there is no shortage of clear candidates for project leadership, including TonyV and Arcanaville (many others too).

Which brings me to...

On the topic of developing a new game:  I have reviewed several commercially available game engines, and I've chosen one I like - and it has a similar zone design system to CoH!  But I won't say too much what I've been planning or how far my really small team has gotten, because...

If you're serious about this, you really should talk to Arcanaville (if you haven't already).  She and someone named Mister_Bison have been writing (slash sparring over) implementations of an attribmod engine for a theoretical CoX successor.  See the thread here:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297175

Read the entire thread; it's pretty meandering and the coding experiment pops in near the middle, but it's still progressing.

Arcanaville also laid out her opinions on how she'd design a successor here:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297302

... but you may have already seen that.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: eabrace on September 23, 2012, 04:48:29 AM
we'll settle for expressions of desire for favorable statistical variance.
Stupid random number generator...

This would be the time to build beyond the softcaps just in case of debuffing.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: WanderingAries on September 23, 2012, 05:24:34 AM
Someone whose ability to make business contacts seems sound actually contacted Cryptic about this.  It seems they are willing to transfer the license.

That shouldn't be so shocking really.  This is a game engine, as opposed to IP--software as opposed to content.  People might be unlikely to let go of IP, but this is a bit like DirecTV licensing their TVtop box.  "I'm moving, I wanted a new box anyway, and the new renter wants my current box.  Can I transfer it to his account?"  "Of course you can!"
This is actually very encouraging, especially for a ground up recovery effort!

As for the OP post, I think the first option, while definitely expensive beyond belief, with the Cryptic software in hand would be the best chance for atleast a patchwork recovery. We could have something up and running that, until v2 can be built from scratch, would keep the game alive. Obviously the few words I just used to attempt to describe the tasks pale in comparison to the number of tasks and $$ involved, I think it the best way to go.

Personally I'm well below developer status, but not everybody in a studio needs to be as Code Cool as Codewalker.  ;-)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: ROBOKiTTY on September 23, 2012, 05:45:15 AM
Open source/community designed is a BAD idea when putting together a project of this size.  The only project I know of that's this large, and has no corporate backing, is the WINE project.  Those of you who have watched it and/or been involved know that the WINE project is horribly unresponsive, and plagued with disagreements which have led to it being splintered into several branches.  Imagine the destruction that would cause to an MMO!  Several competing forks of the same game project, all with different client and servers, and just the act of downloading it and logging in is a hellish experience (anyone try to install WINE and succeed?).

Another problem with community owned is if everyone owns it, nobody does.  Controlling mods and cheating will become impossible, and then the game would lose players fast.  Maybe Apple's model (community created, corporate reviewed content) might work, but I'm not sure.

I've addressed a lot of these in the Sunset forum, but... hierarchy can coexist with open source, and there are ways to enforce unity. Open source does not mean you turn your repository into a public ftp, accept every pull request, or make everyone who asks a core dev. None of the issues mentioned above is unique to open source projects.

Forking is quite controllable in the context of games. The heart and soul of most games are not to be found in the code, but the art assets. Those can be licensed under more restrictive terms to prevent forking of the original project. This has been done to good effect by community projects and companies. id Software has GPLed all their engines while keeping assets proprietary. I haven't seen anyone fork their modern games yet. Planeshift has been forked, but the fork is not even in the same genre (fantasy vs. steampunk).

Private ownership was precisely the reason for the current situation. Finances change, and rights change hands whether we like it or not. If not NCsoft today, it could be EA or SOE tomorrow. The industry is rife with corporations acquiring rights only to bury them. But what is libre can never be taken away.

As for modding and cheating, there are two problems here. 1) Seeking to suppress or control modding is an unwise and futile mindset. Modding fosters and encourages creativity in game communities, while providing utility and content. It's an essential ingredient in engaging the player base and extending the longevity of any game. I mean, we are posting here because folks at Titan felt passionate enough to start modding CoX in the first place. 2) Modding and cheating are not the same thing and should not be lumped together.

With regard to cheating, I don't see how a proprietary model would work any better. Unless you have a full-time staff out there infiltrating communities and scouring the web for published vulnerabilities, you can be sure you aren't aware of all the known cheats out there. Hiding the source is merely security by obscurity. If a sufficiently determined cheater decides to disassemble the executable and finds an exploit, you're not likely to find out. With an open source model, if someone malicious spots a vulnerability in the source, chances are someone conscientious will also spot it.

What I'd be more concerned with is the track record for open source MMOs. Planeshift, Myst Online, and Ryzom are probably the biggest ones out there. Two out of three were formerly proprietary, and all three are moderately small communities as MMOs go.

b) If I talk too much about the plan, there's always a chance a lot of effort and time will be put in and someone with more money and staff will steal the entire thing and get to market first

In game development, great ideas are a dime a dozen. Most gamedevs are too busy trying to make their own visions come true to look for blueprints elsewhere. Implementations are what people look for and copy.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Scott Jackson on September 23, 2012, 06:04:39 AM
I'd strongly recommend that the seemingly separate efforts of TheManga & company and the Titan Plan Z/Sunset Forum be evaluated openly when the time is right.  Whether the community grants its creative and financial power to an already-formed company or to a new Titan one, those first steps are going to have a huge influence on the end result.  Closed negotiations and secret projects have their place in the world, but they don't mix well with an open community.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: dwturducken on September 23, 2012, 06:31:45 AM
I've discussed this with other people, and the main problem--the one we simply cannot get around--is the amount of time it will take before a new CoH is ready for play in the most limited (think Atlas Park, Perez, Hollows and King's Row ONLY) version.  Look how long it took before The Secret World (no relation to my "Secret World Chronicle" and we had the name first) was ready.  It began production under a different name around 2004, changed the name to the current one in 2007ish, and only this year went live.  That's almost 8 years (and 2 or 3 different studios) of production time.  How many players are going to wait for ONE year, much less four to eight?  Not many, is my bet.  If we could get our hands on....oh....20 or 30 million dollars, we could speed that up.  But the reality is this will be, like The Secret World, a slow, mostly part-time-only, undertaking.  People gotta eat, and failing Tony V coming up with a lot of folks to pony up in the six figure range, there is no getting around it, the "studio" we create will be a fraction of the size of Paragon Studios and we would be doing absolutely everything from scratch.

Edited because I was clumsy:

I would point to X-Com. The original game came out in 1994, and fans of the game have been waiting for a worthy successor ever since.  It's been 18 years, and one finally seems to be on the horizon. Maybe that's an extreme example, but games have loyal followings long after their no longer available.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 23, 2012, 06:31:48 AM
2) There is a huge pool of people who are clearly willing to contribute time and effort.  I think that could be leveraged.  Of course, there is a limit to how much you can simply throw more people at a problem, but there are aspects of this project that could be parallelized, with the right coordination.

I wouldn't ignore it, I'm just not ready for it yet.  It may seem like I'm being excessively secretive right now, but that's because I'm not entirely sure of the capability to do this at the moment.  When I feel confident enough, and the tech starts to come together, I'll have a demo prepared.  After that I'll be accepting large scale help.  I just don't want to ask for it, and have those people waiting for something that may either take a really long time to get to that point.  :)

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 23, 2012, 06:55:24 AM
Private ownership was precisely the reason for the current situation. Finances change, and rights change hands whether we like it or not. If not NCsoft today, it could be EA or SOE tomorrow. The industry is rife with corporations acquiring rights only to bury them. But what is libre can never be taken away.

Slow response is a known and accepted side effect of open source - updates take forever, but at least we all own it.  Unfortunately, for a game, with such a rapidly changing market, slow updates could be the death of a game.  It's even worse when there are dependencies involved - how many times have you heard from the CoH graphics team that they would like to implement XXY but they have to wait for engineering to fix something first?  What if there are 10 graphics team people on an open source project, but ONE engineer, and that engineer works full time and has a family; and says he'll get to it when he can because this is thankless non-paying volunteer job, and we'll just have to wait till he gets to it.  A call goes out for engineers, but it goes unanswered for months.  This kind of thing happens all...the...time in open source.

With a private venture, you know how many people you have, whether they're reliable and punctual, and you can add more people if you need to.  I'm not saying open source is evil, it just has its place.  In a game, it does not have the speed and agility necessary to maintain it.

That said, I do like Apple's model for iOS of community supplied content vetted and approved by a private company.  That might work for a game in order to very rapidly add content without drastically inflating the size and cost of the game's development team.

Among things that can be community supplied content:  In-game 3D objects such as buildings, small items, vehicles, plants; costume pieces, as long as they meet certain criteria; missions and mission arcs; art assets; You get the idea.  Those things that are static in nature, and can be distributed rapidly along with game patches.  Power sets themselves, I'm afraid, might need far more testing than the submission process can manage.  Something would have to be worked out though so for instance we don't have someone design a new City Hall and then get angry and demand it be pulled.

Re: Modding and Cheating -

The problem with Modding is that it creates a difference in the experience of different players.  When you create a world, you can't invalidate things like visuals.  For instance if you tell someone the mission contact is the woman next to the glass train station, and that player hasn't downloaded the glass train station mod or the contacts mod, they won't find it because their contact is a robot next to a brick train station.  Get the idea?

And cheating, while it's unlikely to be able to stop all cheating, accepting that it's commonplace and a part of the game will destroy the game.  Players *will* quit over cheating if they believe it's commonplace and giving lots of other players a large advantage.  I don't believe obscurity solves cheating problems - server control, and validating everything sent by the client does.  Nothing is ever a perfect way to stop cheating, you can just make it so difficult that nobody will bother.  Especially if there's no "profit" in it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 23, 2012, 07:03:11 AM
I'd strongly recommend that the seemingly separate efforts of TheManga & company and the Titan Plan Z/Sunset Forum be evaluated openly when the time is right.  Whether the community grants its creative and financial power to an already-formed company or to a new Titan one, those first steps are going to have a huge influence on the end result.  Closed negotiations and secret projects have their place in the world, but they don't mix well with an open community.

All I can promise at this moment is whichever direction(s) I go with this, I'm going to let it pass or fail on its own merits; I will not start something or present something and demand all of your full support.  If you like it, support it, if you don't, then I'll understand.  I'm used to working within the free market.  The only reason it's secret is because it's not a sure thing yet.  When I *really* have something to present, you'll see a youtube demo.  If you don't see one, either we didn't meet the deadline or we couldn't make it work. 

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Scott Jackson on September 23, 2012, 07:11:15 AM
I think there is a misunderstanding of what degree of "open source" is being discussed for Plan Z.  I'd encourage you to get involved in discussions already in progress there.  The discussion of "how to organize and execute Plan Z, if required" could use a dedicated thread that doesn't distract from this one.

However, that doesn't seem to be a path you're interested in taking, and it's not my job to change your mind.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: QuantumHero on September 23, 2012, 07:40:59 AM
Like so many of you I have faith or maybe its just raw determination.  I don't believe in giving up, life would have defeated me a very long time ago if I had...I get frustrated, I have my cries and then I pick myself off, wipe off the dust and give it another try.  I do not believe in surrender as anything other then a strategic manuever.  I prefer being spunky and having chutzpah to being a victim. 

But then I come from a people who know how to survive...I was a raised a secular Jew, but descend from a long line of spiritual leaders...and music has always been my preferred method of prayer.

So yes in the midst of our most holy week I am praying all I can, first for my family, friends, the world and myself...and last but certainly not least for every member of our community that no matter what we hold this community together...and that we have the "best possible outcome" in our quest to save city of heroes or salvage something, anything from the ashes.

If there is one thing my people understand it is survival against the odds and holding strong to what you believe in.

On city of heroes I have teamed and spoken with people of so many different cultures and faiths and been open about who I really am in ways that just aren't possible in other places.

We ARE heroes every last one of us...and we are on nothing less then a quest to save our world.

Let us save our city...or rise from the ashes.

Never give up never surrender


 
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: blue storm on September 23, 2012, 09:29:13 AM
A lot of view seem to be missing the point about Open Source... Open Source is not digital socialism, does not imply that you work for free, and is not especially slow or unresponsive... Projects that are poorly managed (whether they are open source or not) tend to produce bad code, and have a slow rate of development...

One should see Open-Source as a way to empower the users...

I'm a strong proponent of open-source myself... If CoH had been open sourced in the first place : we would NOT be in this situation and IMHO, if we succeed, we don't want to be fighting the same battle again in months or years...

just my 2 cents, but I'll gladly help in any way I can whatever is the chosen path (since above all, I believe in democracy)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 23, 2012, 11:07:31 AM
Let me clarify a few things quickly before I get a bunch of replies upset that I'm trying to take Plan Z off on my own, because re-reading it might look that way (pay close attention to #3):

1) I don't remember if I mentioned before (I might have editied it out) but I needed to learn how to make a large scale 3D game anyhow, long before the CoH Sunset announcement came about.  It was going to be a new game unrelated to CoH, and it wasn't even my idea - it was my soon to be 3D artists' :)  When we saw that a hole may be opening in the socially oriented superhero game market soon, we changed focus.  We still might change it again, depending on how the response is to the demo, or if it takes so long that we miss our window.  Either way, it will be an educational experience, and will eventually produce something cool.

2) It was never even considered to be a CoH clone, only a new game in the same spirit.  In fact, the most difficult part was to think of a way to NOT make it too much like CoH, or Champs, or DCU.

3) The deadline I mentioned is very important, because it's supposed to be scheduled *before* the Plan Z implementaton (and around the time of CoH Sunset).  The idea is that I would take a shot at something that's not a CoH clone, but in similar spirit, and if I can pull it off - and it's still a pretty big if at this point - you'll see a very limited demo.  If it impresses you, or more importantly investors, I proceed with finishing it.  If not, the project gets axed, and Plan Z continues on.  It is not designed to supercede any of the plans here, nor replace them, I'm just working on a possible alternative that may have come about anyway - it just had its timing readjusted.  Like I said above, it passes or fails on its own merits - I do not presume to call it our only hope.

4)  If Plan Z proceeds ahead of schedule, and is capable of producing a compelling demo before I finish mine, so be it.  I may or may not still produce my demo, if only because everything can be reused and recycled when it comes to 3D.  :)

5) I don't hate open-source.  I only say it's not appropriate for this type of project, starting out.

I hope that clears things up...
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 23, 2012, 01:58:15 PM
TheManga's analysis of the reasons for private enterprises vs. open source for certain projects is quite good. I look forward to seeing what he puts together for his personal effort. Even if CoH is fully saved, it is always nice to see new innovations come out!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: MajorDurand on September 23, 2012, 03:17:50 PM
I'm not ready to give up, either!

I would be honored to toss my cowl (Okay, mask. Cowls give me the itchies.) into the ring, too. While I am not on the same rung of the ladder as VV, I'd also like to offer my talents to the project(s) current or future. I'm a writer and graphic artist/illustrator. I can lend a hand with dialog, proofing, storyboards -- whatever is needed.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Cerulean Shadow on September 23, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
I'm also a published writer/author, and would gladly and happily contribute creative content. Heck, I'd be supremely proud to do so!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: jccianca on September 23, 2012, 06:18:21 PM
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 23, 2012, 08:32:42 PM
Well, at the very least, we've learned we have a plentiful supply of writing talent.

/me snickers
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 23, 2012, 09:07:54 PM
Okay.  I'm hoping that Brian can pull a rabbit out of...well...SOMETHING that that the game can somehow continue.

In the event that he's unable, even with our help, to acquire the CoH property, then I agree, a new game in the spirit of CoH would probably be the next best thing.

A server emulator, however good, would open us up to legal challenge, and would probably destroy the community as everyone is god in their own little domain.  The best thing about the game was the COMMUNITY.  Individual server emulators would fracture that.  Not that I want to cast a pall over that project.

As for open vs closed source or community vs private ownership.

But the thing that keeps cheats from being especially efficacious in CoH is the server control and client validation.
If people want to mod their clients to show certain things differently, yeah, I could probably get behind making such info available.  But things that involve actual CHEATING need to be locked down.

Also, if the source code to run a server is just "out there" for anyone to pick up, we're back to the "fractures the community" problem.

Plus, it's possible that the game may be implemented with technologies that are licensed from other companies.  Tech we have NO rights to publish source to.

On top of that, with community ownership.  If we want to have a way to have their say in the governance of the property?  Cool.  Outright ownership?  Might be more difficult to justify.  ESPECIALLY if we have real players with "skin" in the game.  How do you tell a guy who's dropped six or seven figures on funding your game that, sorry, he's been marginalized by John Doe FreeToPlay's opinion?

In short, open vs closed source?  Closed source with extensive documentation for legitimate modding purposes.
Community vs private ownership?  Private ownership with a way for the wishes of the community to factor into game governance.  Possibly a player-elected steering committee that has the right to sit in on physical meetings of the company with regard to this game, and can opt to participate in online venues where governance-related decisions are made.

I love open source and free exchange of information, but I'm a realist.  But you can't simply demand that people dropping significant quantities of money essentially GIVE away the fruits of their investment.  If they WISH to?  Yeah, cool, fine.  That's voluntary.  But essentially decreeing it will cause lawsuits and/or chase off investors.

At this point, it's still kinda up in the air.  Still in the "hoping Brian pulls one off" stage so I can throw money at him.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Viking on September 23, 2012, 09:16:43 PM
Thats for some more info. Been trying to keep my hopes up, but after 3 week and little communication I'm starting to get very worried. I really hope my gut feeling is wrong, but I do think comes November 30th the servers will be going down (I really hope I completely wrong).

Keep up the good work Tony and CoHTitan.

Viking
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: eabrace on September 23, 2012, 09:19:02 PM
On top of that, with community ownership.  If we want to have a way to have their say in the governance of the property?  Cool.  Outright ownership?  Might be more difficult to justify.  ESPECIALLY if we have real players with "skin" in the game.  How do you tell a guy who's dropped six or seven figures on funding your game that, sorry, he's been marginalized by John Doe FreeToPlay's opinion?

...

Community vs private ownership?  Private ownership with a way for the wishes of the community to factor into game governance.  Possibly a player-elected steering committee that has the right to sit in on physical meetings of the company with regard to this game, and can opt to participate in online venues where governance-related decisions are made.

I like that option.  It gives the community both a sense of ownership and a close relationship with the developers on the other end of the software.

I do think comes November 30th the servers will be going down (I really hope I completely wrong).

I think - and have thought since Black Friday - that regardless of the final outcome, this is going to happen.  The question is not whether or not the servers will go down.  The question is whether or not they will come back up.  And if they do come back up, the next questions are:

* How long will that down time be?
* Will the game still be the same game we're playing right now, or will it have to change?

Disclaimer:  The views expressed in this post are entirely those of the poster.  They do not reflect an official view of the Titan Network or represent any "insider" knowledge of the state of ongoing negotiations between former Paragon Studios employees and NCsoft.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: padathir on September 23, 2012, 11:14:55 PM
I think - and have thought since Black Friday - that regardless of the final outcome, this is going to happen.  The question is not whether or not the servers will go down.  The question is whether or not they will come back up.

Black friday indeed. And yeah there never was any doubt there'd be some downtime, the question is can that downtime not be permanent.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: ukaserex on September 23, 2012, 11:21:12 PM
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 23, 2012, 11:50:30 PM
I think - and have thought since Black Friday - that regardless of the final outcome, this is going to happen.  The question is not whether or not the servers will go down.  The question is whether or not they will come back up.  And if they do come back up, the next questions are:

When you say "the servers", you're actually talking about multiple parts:

Map Servers - I believe these are outsourced, hosted on a public ISP's hardware.  If that's true, they would continue operating as if nothing happened, and the new owner would take over billing.  NCSoft would not shut these down and lose the data out of spite, because they're the heart of the game, and destroying that could lead to a lawsuit for breach of contract.  Of course, if I'm wrong, and the Map Servers are hosted at a physical NCSoft owned facility, there would be some down time while the data is moved - but if it's done right, it would be only a few hours or days of downtime.

Database Servers - Just as sensitive as the Map Servers, they're in pretty much the same situation.

Global Servers - We may have to deal with anything from a partial to a total Global Server loss.  The data used here is tied to NCSoft's account system.  It's possible to separate it, because it used to be separate.  But that depends on factors such as how much time there is to separate it.

Account Servers - We WILL lose these.  NCSoft is not going to hand over control of their account servers.  They may hand over a backup of user account data pertaining to keeping CoH subscriptions active, but it's almost certain that every single player will have to resub via an entirely new system that has to be set up quickly.  My own suggestion would be to flag everyone for VIP access until it's set up, and give the formerly freemium players a little taste.  :)

Paragon Market - This will work, because it's operated independent of other NCSoft shops, but Paragon Points will not be purchaseable until the Account Servers are finished.

Patch Servers - Because the old Patch Servers were disabled when the NCSoft Launcher took over, new ones will have to be set up.  The good news is, this doesn't have to be from scratch, because there are existing ones that are just not being used.  And a temporary one could be set up pretty quickly that doesn't actually send patches, but allows the CoH client to continue on and log in.

Another thing to note about Patch Servers and Account Servers - if NCSoft is feeling uncooperative, they can and will cut those off the day the contract is signed.  That may mean some additional downtime while accounts are VIP-flagged, the patch server is worked around, and the game is generally set up to allow people to log in and play normally.

The part where we'd be lucky in the case of CoH independence from NCSoft is that NC never got around to completely integrating the game into their systems, like they have with other titles.  The relative separation will help with the transition.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 24, 2012, 12:09:07 AM
I like that option.  It gives the community both a sense of ownership and a close relationship with the developers on the other end of the software.

Exactly.  Part of the whole "thing" with CoH has been "investment".  HeroCons, convention support, Player Summits and open communication on various media have been one way to convey that.  I think a player steering committee might be the way to go to help retain some of that.

Quote
The question is not whether or not the servers will go down.  The question is whether or not they will come back up.

Exactly.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SithRose on September 24, 2012, 12:37:56 AM
4)  If Plan Z proceeds ahead of schedule, and is capable of producing a compelling demo before I finish mine, so be it.  I may or may not still produce my demo, if only because everything can be reused and recycled when it comes to 3D.  :)

5) I don't hate open-source.  I only say it's not appropriate for this type of project, starting out.

I hope that clears things up...

It still sounds like you're trying to produce something different than Plan Z, and would intend to try to take over the Plan Z work if you can produce a working demo before Plan Z does. I'm not sure that's the intent you're going for, because it does sound initially like you're planning on either directly competing or attempting to take over. I don't think either would go over very well, but I DO think that we'd like to have your skills involved with Plan Z should it be needed. Can we chat a bit in messages or a different thread and try to clear up the misunderstanding a bit better? :) (In the spirit of not wanting to hijack this thread, mind.)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: RogerWilco on September 24, 2012, 12:47:20 AM
First I'd like to thank TonyV for his efforts and organizing all this. It must be taking a lot of time next to whatever he usually does.

I have a few cents of my own to add to this discussion:
1) I think the best way to keep the game is if we can find a solution where the existing clients (and servers) can be used. I have a little experience in 3D modelling and the amount of time it would take to recreate the costume designer alone is staggering. Not just that, but tools like Maya and 3DS Max are very expensive and take a lot of time to learn. The open source/free alternatives have the problem of not reading/writing the standard formats (mostly Blender). The custom character design is at the core of this game, without the player, costume and power models that currently exist in the game, it will be a long time in making any replacement.

2) I worry about the legality of running private servers. I think it would otherwise be a possible solution, at least for a while, as it means we can at least keep using the current artwork/client. I'm part of a gaming community that's been running their own game servers for more than 10 years now and used to run MUDs before that. It can work if you have an organized community. www.conclave.cc is our website.

3) As far as organizing a community, I think that for an effort like this, you need a studio with paid staff at the core. I like the Mojang/Minecraft model, where there are official releases of the game, but also a large modding community. Mojang actively talks to it's modding community and even has hired some of the most talented modders. On the other hand, Mojang closely keeps control of the "official" game, as they have seen what went wrong with InfiniMiner. They have central player database servers, but anyone can run their own world server after authenticating. I think it would make a good model for our future. Revenue would need to be based on selling updates to the engine and content to the players. Something like what Guild Wars does, but having the community run the map servers.

4) We don't live in 2004 any more, there are currently a lot of available engines for building 3D games. The top of the line stuff like the CryEngine and Unreal Engine, which could be troublesome in licensing, but I've been recently looking at the Unity 3D engine (works on my Mac) and GarageGames just released the new version of the Open Source (MIT licence) Torque 3D engine. I haven't looked at Torque 3D yet, but something like Unity 3D or any of the other engines is advanced enough and pretty easy to develop for. I don't think that the 3D engine would be the biggest stumbling block in developing a successor, there are even decent Open Source solutions. As I said in my first point, the amount of Art needed and the costs to make that (motion captured animations?), would be a much biggest stumbling block.

5) My experience in writing Client/Server games is limited to old MUDs. I don't know how hard it is to get right, but I see that some of these game engines even come with the building blocks for these kinds of things. Heck, I think I even saw a tutorial on how to build an MMO with either Torque 3D or Unity 3D. I think with a clear leader and sufficient resources, this is not unsolvable.

6) Finally I want to point at what ActiVision did years ago with Call to Power, when they stopped development on that. They licensed the source to the community (Apolyon Network), but kept full rights to the art and IP. This basically allowed the community to patch and mod the game, but without losing the IP rights. They didn't use an Open Source licence. Bringing this up in any talks with NCsoft about licensing details might be useful if we ever get that far. It would allow anyone who has the client to continue playing. I have seen efforts like this also fail in the past, just because of the costs of writing such a license, someone still has to pay the lawyers that NCsoft would need to set this up.

In short, I think there can be some leverage of Open Source, maybe through things like Torque 3D, but I think there needs to be a studio in control, with central player administration and things like that. I think maybe running the servers could be done by external hosting and local communities, like it's done for MineCraft and a lot of FPS games. My biggest worry would be the need for a lot of 3D art development, and the time and costs associated with that if we can't find a way to use the existing CoH artwork.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 24, 2012, 01:28:28 AM
It still sounds like you're trying to produce something different than Plan Z, and would intend to try to take over the Plan Z work if you can produce a working demo before Plan Z does. I'm not sure that's the intent you're going for, because it does sound initially like you're planning on either directly competing or attempting to take over. I don't think either would go over very well, but I DO think that we'd like to have your skills involved with Plan Z should it be needed. Can we chat a bit in messages or a different thread and try to clear up the misunderstanding a bit better? :) (In the spirit of not wanting to hijack this thread, mind.)

Let me summarize so I don't wander off into side topics and confuse things:

 - I was going to produce a 3D game anyway.  My friend and 3D artist has been nagging me since, oh, May or so to learn Blender and a 3D engine or two in preparation for making a game.  It was going to contain an outdoor environment, story arcs, and customizable costumes, much like CoH does.  But it was not a superhero game, nor related to CoH.

 - When I read about the CoH shutdown on Black Friday (I like that name), my first thought was a buyout.  My second thought was, this is going to open a hole in the superhero game genre, and since I'm already working on learning 3D gaming, I may as well change the focus.

 - Shortly after, I chose a 3D engine and started learning how a city zone is built.  To be honest, that's about as far as I've gotten so far aside from a plan.  So I kept quiet about it at first, afraid of making promises that I can't keep.

 - My plan is to try to produce a 3D demo *before* Plan Z is supposed to begin.  As I said above, because 3D objects like characters, clothing, and city areas are all completely recyclable, it's worth my time to do so *even if it's not used in a super-hero game*, because I can use them in another unrelated 3D game.  It's also very ambitious for 2 people to produce while at the same time learning a game engine, so I don't even know yet if it's even possible to beat that deadline.  Either way, it's a huge incentive to do what I've been putting off for a long time.  :)

 - IF I do beat that deadline, and it's still a BIG if, I will then see if the demo raises enough interest to possibly become Plan Z.  So basically what I'm offering is to save everyone a lot of work and time, if we have overlapping interests.  If not, I move on and the demo becomes something else later on.  Pass or fail on its own merits.

 - It should not prevent me from working on Plan Z, but as with the demo and/or my own game, it would depend on availability and time.

 - I am not attempting to halt Plan Z or hijack it.  I can't say I won't compete with it, because in a way every 3D MMO competes with every other 3D MMO.  I'm not going to promise that I'll never develop anything 3D or MMO, because that would be unreasonable - unless, of course, Plan Z turns out to be a lucrative source of work that requires a non-compete agreement in exchange for a decent amount of money.  :)

Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 24, 2012, 02:47:51 AM
Well, to be fair, I'm interested to see what TheManga comes up with. My thoughts on it and Plan Z are as follows: so far, the things that I have been most involved with in Plan Z are content-related: design of the city where the game takes place, design of the timeline, some enemy groups, two signature heroes, and a partial story arc. I do know that other people are drafting an engine, but I don't know how far they've gotten. The content part at least could be transferred to any engine we wish, in theory. I'd be concerned most of all with how close what you are working on is to CoH - what content are you using, i.e. is it CoH, CoH-inspired, CoH-implied, or your own altogether based on CoH's roots in comic books?

Right now, Plan Z I'm treating as CoH-implied: my signature characters have stories that easily tie into CoH (they're the twin children of Manti and Psyche), but I never explicitly say that in any of their 'official' stories, so I should be save legal-wise.

Now, I don't want to hijack this thread either, although it does seem to me to have served its purpose in what TonyV was trying to tell us, sadly.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: frostcoh on September 24, 2012, 03:17:01 AM
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 24, 2012, 03:26:44 AM
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist.  I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas").  My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them to take their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IP be willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.

Wish me luck.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 24, 2012, 03:33:56 AM
Good luck, VV! May all the gods who have ever been worshiped by man, beast, or Elder Thing aid you!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 24, 2012, 03:45:31 AM
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist.  I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas").  My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them to take their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IP be willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.

Wish me luck.

Good luck, and may $deity go with you!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: LastRonin on September 24, 2012, 04:28:40 AM
 Long.... long shot in the dark, but I work with people that have the funds we need. I would need to know one thing before i even thought to approach any of them. What are the actual numbers? By that I'm asking how much did City of Heroes make and cost to run per quarter for the last few years. Truthfully, this is what any investor is going to need to know before taking the first step. These people are not fans. They don't love the game like we do. They are happy to put up money if it gets them a return on their investment. Yes they will take risks and this is a risk.

So if someone has that information please e-mail me at chuckvick44@hotmail.com. I don't want guesses. I don't want what Ncsoft made annually. Just what the game makes and costs. Please include the source of the information.

After I get these I will talk to my co-workers.

Thanks
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: downix on September 24, 2012, 04:42:27 AM
Long.... long shot in the dark, but I work with people that have the funds we need. I would need to know one thing before i even thought to approach any of them. What are the actual numbers? By that I'm asking how much did City of Heroes make and cost to run per quarter for the last few years. Truthfully, this is what any investor is going to need to know before taking the first step. These people are not fans. They don't love the game like we do. They are happy to put up money if it gets them a return on their investment. Yes they will take risks and this is a risk.

So if someone has that information please e-mail me at chuckvick44@hotmail.com. I don't want guesses. I don't want what Ncsoft made annually. Just what the game makes and costs. Please include the source of the information.

After I get these I will talk to my co-workers.

Thanks
emailed with questions.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: jccianca on September 24, 2012, 04:58:18 AM
Don't let a thin language barrier stop you from posting, and while there are people working on trying to save the game, right now the most helpful thing we can do is 1) send physical letters to NCSOFT  encouraging them to sell the game 2)  email NCSOFT with the same requests & 3) play the game.

Don't lose hope, we've still got a couple of months and a lot of fight left, every new post I see here from someone that took the time & effort to come here from the official forums, or wherever just proves our point to NCSOFT (and/or potential investors) that our community is strong and dedicated.

I' m still working in the letters to NCSoft, and about playing the game I play every single day at least 2 hrs. and thats why I noticed a decrease in the population. I had to move from champion to Freedom because of that. And you can se people saying their good byes  because dont wanna spend more time in something that have their days counted.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 24, 2012, 05:45:31 AM

Go for it VV, I for one am hoping it makes all the difference.


I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist.  I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas").  My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them to take their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IP be willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.

Wish me luck.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: The-Hunter-JLJ on September 24, 2012, 05:48:38 AM
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist.  I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas").  My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them to take their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IP be willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.

Wish me luck.

I'm thinking "break a leg" is more appropriate. (lol) Knock 'em dead.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Globetrotter on September 24, 2012, 06:37:24 AM
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist.  I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas").  My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them to take their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IP be willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.

Wish me luck.

sends a bouquet of four clovers!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: StarRanger4 on September 24, 2012, 06:45:54 AM
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist.  I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas").  My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them to take their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IP be willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.

Wish me luck.

*Suddenly tears up*

Kerowyn, Kerowyn, where are you going... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZsgM3FOOVM)



Ahem.  I may not have VV's chops at writing, my creatvive Vectors are strongest along the lines of CGI modeling software like Blender, but if they would be of aid when the time comes, to this I will lend my sword, my sacred honor, etc.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Cinnder on September 24, 2012, 08:05:45 AM
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist.  I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas").  My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them to take their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IP be willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.

Wish me luck.

I posted this on another thread, but it seemed so relevant to this that I thought I'd put it here as well, in case it helps you in your efforts, VV...

Last week I visited an exhibit on video games at the Smithsonian's American Art Museum in DC.  The very first placard had this to say:


..................................
Three Voices
Artist, Game, Player
..................................


Video games combine graphics, sound,
story, and interaction to create meaningful
and immersive experiences.  Imaginative
artists and designers use this medium to
create worlds and tell stories.  None of this
is possible, however, without the participation
of the player.  Everyone who plays a game
puts a little of themselves into the experience,
and takes away something that is wholly unique.
The conversation among the game, the artist,
and the player is critical to understanding video
games as art.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 24, 2012, 12:30:58 PM
Long.... long shot in the dark, but I work with people that have the funds we need. I would need to know one thing before i even thought to approach any of them. What are the actual numbers? By that I'm asking how much did City of Heroes make and cost to run per quarter for the last few years. Truthfully, this is what any investor is going to need to know before taking the first step. These people are not fans. They don't love the game like we do. They are happy to put up money if it gets them a return on their investment. Yes they will take risks and this is a risk.

So if someone has that information please e-mail me at chuckvick44@hotmail.com. I don't want guesses. I don't want what Ncsoft made annually. Just what the game makes and costs. Please include the source of the information.

After I get these I will talk to my co-workers.

Thanks
These are, in fact, the numbers I'm trying to gather. My own approach will be to first talk to the potential investor and get permission to ask in their name, because I think that will work better. It is probably equally long a shot. So I wish you luck, good sir.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: The-Hunter-JLJ on September 24, 2012, 01:12:39 PM
*Suddenly tears up*

Kerowyn, Kerowyn, where are you going... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZsgM3FOOVM)




Ah, my favorite version, too. (grin) That Velgarth place has certainly inspired a lotta great music, hasn't it?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: StarRanger4 on September 24, 2012, 02:33:16 PM
Ah, my favorite version, too. (grin) That Velgarth place has certainly inspired a lotta great music, hasn't it?

 ;D
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SithRose on September 24, 2012, 03:47:26 PM
I'm cross-posting this from Star Power. It was brought up in the Sunset forums, and I thought it should be mentioned here as part of trying to save COH *first*.

Steve Jackson Games has a very good reputation in the pen and paper gaming industry. They're also a company that keeps products going WELL past their sell-by date. I don't suppose that folks might have contacts with them to discuss possible acquisition of the COH IP and/or potential funding of Plan Z should it come to that? Especially if we can say "Look, this is what we can offer, this is what the game can do for you, we're willing to get product placement in the game for you, can you help us save City of Heroes?"

There is HUGE potential for SJG product placement in COH. Between the books, the CCGs (Munchkin games at the university!!!), and everything else....it may well be an avenue worth exploring. *I* don't have the contacts for that, but perhaps someone here does?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: The-Hunter-JLJ on September 24, 2012, 04:29:40 PM
Err. You are right, SJG would be a natural fit. Unless he's changed immensely, there's probably an email address listed for him on their website, and he very likely answers it himself. The problem would be, I think you're vastly overestimating the potential for expansion they'd have. Well worth following up to see if I am right, if someone actually has direct contacts with him. Just don't get your hopes up; the traditional gaming industry is not exactly a cash cow outside of maybe Wizards of the Coast.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SithRose on September 24, 2012, 04:58:21 PM
Err. You are right, SJG would be a natural fit. Unless he's changed immensely, there's probably an email address listed for him on their website, and he very likely answers it himself. The problem would be, I think you're vastly overestimating the potential for expansion they'd have. Well worth following up to see if I am right, if someone actually has direct contacts with him. Just don't get your hopes up; the traditional gaming industry is not exactly a cash cow outside of maybe Wizards of the Coast.

Contacting SJG was Kheprera's idea, not mine. :) I just expanded it to see if it could be used to help save COH instead of just looking at it for Plan Z.

As far as potential for expansion...I think that would be something to discuss with them - It might be a genre they'd be willing to expand into, especially with a proven money-making product....
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Olantern on September 24, 2012, 05:12:00 PM
I'm going to try one more approach to Dr. Yoon at NCSoft to try and bridge the gap of understanding that seems to exist.  I am going to show her that this is not just "a game" but an ongoing exercise in improvisational theatrics, and is a whole lot like K-Dramas (한국드라마) (otherwise known as "Korean Soap-operas").  My goal is going to be to get NCSoft to understand why we are making all this fuss, and hopefully persuade them that as a work of ongoing art--and we can argue how"artistic" all that RP and so on is some other time--it is laudable of them to take their claws out of it and release their death-grip on the IP be willing to sell it to some other party interested in bringing it back to life.

Wish me luck.

I hope that negotiating from a principle helps in this case.  There's nothing harder than getting someone to agree to a solution that's best for everyone, especially if requires that person to give up something, so my hat (a fedora) is off to you.  Good luck; my thoughts are with you.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Golden Girl on September 24, 2012, 05:15:33 PM
I'm also a published writer/author, and would gladly and happily contribute creative content. Heck, I'd be supremely proud to do so!

Plan Z would need a lot of writers - but it'd also need a suitable story creation tool set to let them turn their ideas into actual missions.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Kheprera on September 24, 2012, 05:24:38 PM
Contacting SJG was Kheprera's idea, not mine. :) I just expanded it to see if it could be used to help save COH instead of just looking at it for Plan Z.

As far as potential for expansion...I think that would be something to discuss with them - It might be a genre they'd be willing to expand into, especially with a proven money-making product....

Right now it's just an inkling of an idea I had.  Once upon a time I was in the local SCA here and Steve Jackson was the baron at the time. That is about the extent of my contact with him.  I doubt he'd remember me, personally, at all, as it has been about 30 years.

Any proposal that is drawn up, though, must be thorough and well done and should come from someone with a little more clout and business sense (of which I have very little).  I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with something, some force that could lend additional support to our side.  Ms. Lackey is a huge name, and her willingness to leverage her name to help us is so tremendously appreciated I cannot begin to express my gratitude.  My respect for her has skyrocketed into the stratosphere.

Adding SJG with her endorsement, if it can be done, may be a way for us to find the backing.

Another idea I had was Reaper Miniatures.  I have a good relationship with them and can approach Ed Poole with the idea.  Many Reaperites play or have played CoH, and if they can get a license to produce a line of minis... hitting the PnPRPG market can't hurt us.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 24, 2012, 05:38:59 PM
Another idea I had was Reaper Miniatures.  I have a good relationship with them and can approach Ed Poole with the idea.  Many Reaperites play or have played CoH, and if they can get a license to produce a line of minis... hitting the PnPRPG market can't hurt us.

That's actually a brilliant idea.  Remember, if CoH can achieve independence it's also going to need to maintain profitability.  Ideas like that could help that along.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 24, 2012, 11:00:19 PM
Steve is a pretty good friend of mine.  My question would be if he could afford this.  The days when PandP gaming was a cash cow are long over....options for the rights to big literary properties for PandP gaming used to be in the high 5 and low 6 figures...now they are in the low 4 figures.

Still, if he wants to take it on he would have my assurance that I would pimp the hell out of it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Cende on September 25, 2012, 12:59:37 AM
I'm not going into details, because I can't - it's business, and that's how it works, however, here's a small surprise.

In late August / early September, I started pulling the numbers for NCSoft, specifically focusing on Paragon Studios. The intent was to form a plan so that in early 2013, I could approach NCSoft about buying out Paragon Studios. It's something I'd been thinking of doing for a while; apparently I should have started a little earlier!

Obviously, things got a little rushed here. I'm not pleased in the least, because it's damn difficult to make your case when you don't look as professional as you need to. However, that being said - my company (as in, the one I own) HAS approached NCSoft with an offer to open negotiations. We did so about a week and change ago.

So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 25, 2012, 01:06:22 AM
If you have the funds to make a serious bid, approaching the former Paragon Studios leadership might be more fruitful than approaching NCSoft. They may well appreciate a partner, depending on how the negotiations are going.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: dwturducken on September 25, 2012, 01:44:50 AM
Steve is a pretty good friend of mine.  My question would be if he could afford this.  The days when PandP gaming was a cash cow are long over....options for the rights to big literary properties for PandP gaming used to be in the high 5 and low 6 figures...now they are in the low 4 figures.

Still, if he wants to take it on he would have my assurance that I would pimp the hell out of it.

My question would be: did the Justice Department slap him with some kind of ban after the stupidity over the "Hackers" expansion for GURPS? Is he allowed to produce or distribute computer products? Otherwise, though he may not have the resources himself, would he be another link in the chain to finding or accumulating backers? (Apologies for how coldly analytical that sounds.)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: downix on September 25, 2012, 02:06:46 AM
Cende, I second what Segev said; contact the Paragon Studios management right away. Two groups competing will only hurt as the price climbs due to a bidding war. Working together, we can do this.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 25, 2012, 02:10:09 AM
Cende, I second what Segev said; contact the Paragon Studios management right away. Two groups competing will only hurt as the price climbs due to a bidding war. Working together, we can do this.

If you're serious, yes, please, contact the other group as soon as possible!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Heavy Ion on September 25, 2012, 02:40:32 AM
Quote
Cende, I second what Segev said; contact the Paragon Studios management right away. Two groups competing will only hurt as the price climbs due to a bidding war. Working together, we can do this.

Maybe these two supergroups can form a coalition.   ;)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Golden Girl on September 25, 2012, 03:31:29 AM
Rival bids could also make NCSoft decide to hang onto the IP for future use.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: emu265 on September 25, 2012, 03:58:08 AM
I'm not going into details, because I can't - it's business, and that's how it works, however, here's a small surprise.

In late August / early September, I started pulling the numbers for NCSoft, specifically focusing on Paragon Studios. The intent was to form a plan so that in early 2013, I could approach NCSoft about buying out Paragon Studios. It's something I'd been thinking of doing for a while; apparently I should have started a little earlier!

Obviously, things got a little rushed here. I'm not pleased in the least, because it's damn difficult to make your case when you don't look as professional as you need to. However, that being said - my company (as in, the one I own) HAS approached NCSoft with an offer to open negotiations. We did so about a week and change ago.

So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.
*just saw this*

Thanks for sharing.  I am hoping this works out.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 25, 2012, 04:39:17 AM
My question would be: did the Justice Department slap him with some kind of ban after the stupidity over the "Hackers" expansion for GURPS? Is he allowed to produce or distribute computer products? Otherwise, though he may not have the resources himself, would he be another link in the chain to finding or accumulating backers? (Apologies for how coldly analytical that sounds.)

The EF Foundation successfully defended him with no bans or penalties, and in fact IIRC, he got a monetary judgement against the Justice Department.

I can't say on the rest, I haven't been directly in touch with him for a couple years.  If anyone has a more recent contact they should pursue it.  My Secret Guy is probably way more in touch with these things than Steve.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 25, 2012, 04:59:58 AM
I'd heard about the "hacker" incident, but am glad to hear that not only was he wholly cleared of any wrongdoing, but that he might have gotten some compensation for the losses he doubtless suffered. I can only hope it was enough to be commensurate.

I am waiting on feedback from one of my own avenues right now; I make no promises, as ever, but I hope to hear back tomorrow.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Knightslayer on September 25, 2012, 09:57:21 AM
I'm not going into details, because I can't - it's business, and that's how it works, however, here's a small surprise.

In late August / early September, I started pulling the numbers for NCSoft, specifically focusing on Paragon Studios. The intent was to form a plan so that in early 2013, I could approach NCSoft about buying out Paragon Studios. It's something I'd been thinking of doing for a while; apparently I should have started a little earlier!

Obviously, things got a little rushed here. I'm not pleased in the least, because it's damn difficult to make your case when you don't look as professional as you need to. However, that being said - my company (as in, the one I own) HAS approached NCSoft with an offer to open negotiations. We did so about a week and change ago.

So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.
That's great news! Now hopefully NCsoft will be reasonable and your company (and Paragon Studios?) can come to some kind of deal! :D
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: johnrobey on September 25, 2012, 01:03:33 PM
Dear TonyV and everyone, THANKS!!!   Part of my own (small) ongoing effort is posting links to these forums on guildportal SG webpages, since I notice some of the veteran players who no longer log into CoH, still check our sgwebsite for info, hoping for good news (and otherwise debating the pro's and con's of various other MMOs).  Once again, the CoH Community has impressed me.  Looking forward to the next Player Rally!  I don't know that they'll make a difference to business negotiations, but they're good for player morale.  Each day that I log into City of Heroes, I'm asked at least once (or see on the global chat) that people are hungry for more information and sometimes want to know if there's anything more we can do.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: johnrobey on September 25, 2012, 01:18:46 PM
It is easy to feel defeated. But no one is ever defeated until they give up.

I am Blaster! No matter how many times I may fall in battle, I will pop my tray of rez, I will use Rise of the Phoenix, I will hit the hospital, until the battle is won!

LOL!  That made my day, Downix!  The Blaster archetype certainly teaches perseverance.  :-)   And don't leave out Buffing up at the Base using Empowerment Stations and raiding the Inspiration Chests!

More seriously, but just as inspiring was reading the posts by those with expertise in areas ranging from business/financial/entrepreneurship to IT/MMO animation.  Thank you!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 25, 2012, 03:15:16 PM
So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.

So, does "They're not talking to us" mean, they don't want to negotiate, or they haven't even given you the courtesy of a, "Go away and leave us alone" ?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 25, 2012, 03:24:14 PM
The latter, from the tone of the post and the general practice people have seen out of NCSoft. They're hunkering down and hoping this goes away. They are apparently talking to Paragon Studios, as we're hearing that negotiations are ongoing with them. Anybody who has a serious business proposal to help out is more likely to have success by approaching Paragon for information about how they can help/get involved.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: frostcoh on September 25, 2012, 03:33:36 PM
The latter, from the tone of the post and the general practice people have seen out of NCSoft. They're hunkering down and hoping this goes away. They are apparently talking to Paragon Studios, as we're hearing that negotiations are ongoing with them. Anybody who has a serious business proposal to help out is more likely to have success by approaching Paragon for information about how they can help/get involved.

A united front makes sense, however I'm not sure if @ncsoft is thinking logically or still in panic mode.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Viking on September 25, 2012, 03:37:49 PM
I'm not going into details, because I can't - it's business, and that's how it works, however, here's a small surprise.

In late August / early September, I started pulling the numbers for NCSoft, specifically focusing on Paragon Studios. The intent was to form a plan so that in early 2013, I could approach NCSoft about buying out Paragon Studios. It's something I'd been thinking of doing for a while; apparently I should have started a little earlier!

Obviously, things got a little rushed here. I'm not pleased in the least, because it's damn difficult to make your case when you don't look as professional as you need to. However, that being said - my company (as in, the one I own) HAS approached NCSoft with an offer to open negotiations. We did so about a week and change ago.

So far, they're not talking to us. This could be because they're not talking to anyone (outside of the former Paragon management); it could be because they're not taking us seriously (a real possibility, we're very new); it could be for any number of reasons. I don't know. However, people can be aware that there IS a small (extremely small) studio that's making the attempt, and we're going to keep trying until we get something official out of them.

Saw this now I hope both paragon and Cende can get together and make a good offer to NCsoft.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on September 25, 2012, 04:10:34 PM
Saw this now I hope both paragon and Cende can get together and make a good offer to NCsoft.

Seconded.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Shadowe on September 25, 2012, 04:16:38 PM
Another voice in favour of investigating via Paragon Studios' management rather than directly with NCsoft, whether as some sort of partnership or just for ways to make yourselves heard, Cende. The real question is whether you'd want your company to be intimately involved in CoH or act as a backer for PS. If the former, I suspect there would be delight all around. Of course, we know nothing about the nature of your business, so we can only speculate, but this is truly excellent news.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Golden Girl on September 25, 2012, 04:26:11 PM
More financial backers for Paragon Studios could also help to encourage other backers to come forwards or commit more.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TinFoil on September 25, 2012, 04:30:27 PM
Reverse Engineering the game isn't about saving the community or playing for free in my eyes, it's about preserving the hard work and dedication of those who've worked on the game and the experiences the game provided.  There's no DOSbox or emulation for MMOs... when they die, they die forever. No loading it up to show your future kids where we came from, no passing any of the experiences down for others to learn about, nothing more than a couple movies and a few screen shots. When an MMO dies, it is basically erased from history.

Quick personal story... at my last family gathering we had access to a handful of emulators hooked into the main television. Through random conversation, my older brother recalled playing Smurfs on the ColecoVision. We loaded the game up and had a blast. Four generations sitting in a room laughing hysterically at a Smurf getting killed by a tuff of grass. I want that possibility for City of Heroes. To talk about my valiant Hero and how he lead his team down into the sewers to battle evil foes.

I support all the efforts of the Titan Network. I hope the game can be saved for many, many years. Sometimes though, you need a Vigilante to do a Hero's work.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Stormsurge on September 25, 2012, 04:40:36 PM
I am just a player, with a minimal income and large bills. So either way, I can't help you with any of these things.

But I can support the Titan Network. And I can support the City of Heroes Community. This can be done by simply sticking together. When the official forums go down, when the servers do close, let this be the official place for the City of Heroes community until such time when the game is reopened.  I have no doubt in my mind that it can and will be done.

 
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Cende on September 25, 2012, 05:27:23 PM
As far as what they've told me, no I haven't even heard as much as "Not interested, go away." Still working.

Regarding bidding wars or supporting Paragon, obviously I can't say much here, but let me say what I can as simply as possible so as not to be misconstrued:

a) I have no intention of getting into a bidding war with Paragon or anyone else. For one thing it's not good for the game, for another, I can't afford it.

b) Money is really complicated. Please don't ask about it.

b) If Paragon* is in closed negotiations with NCSoft, they may not be allowed to talk to me, and I don't want to corner them. I also don't know what they need. However, I'm more than happy to work out an agreement between whatever is left of Paragon and my own group. I don't presently have any way of contacting them, since all the email addresses *I* had for them ended in @paragon.com - and they're not checking those anymore for some reason.  (Edit: That "for some reason" is ever so gentle sarcasm.)

*Paragon is, as I am using it here, the term for Brian and whatever's left of the management group that's currently in whatever negotiations that are happening with NCSoft. Is that the term in use generally?

Edit, about 2 hours later: I should really check my messages before posting.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 25, 2012, 06:23:41 PM
As far as what they've told me, no I haven't even heard as much as "Not interested, go away." Still working.

Regarding bidding wars or supporting Paragon, obviously I can't say much here, but let me say what I can as simply as possible so as not to be misconstrued:

a) I have no intention of getting into a bidding war with Paragon or anyone else. For one thing it's not good for the game, for another, I can't afford it.

b) Money is really complicated. Please don't ask about it.

b) If Paragon* is in closed negotiations with NCSoft, they may not be allowed to talk to me, and I don't want to corner them. I also don't know what they need. However, I'm more than happy to work out an agreement between whatever is left of Paragon and my own group. I don't presently have any way of contacting them, since all the email addresses *I* had for them ended in @paragon.com - and they're not checking those anymore for some reason. 

*Paragon is, as I am using it here, the term for Brian and whatever's left of the management group that's currently in whatever negotiations that are happening with NCSoft. Is that the term in use generally?

They lost access to those addresses when the studio was shut down.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Viking on September 25, 2012, 06:38:10 PM
As far as what they've told me, no I haven't even heard as much as "Not interested, go away." Still working.

Regarding bidding wars or supporting Paragon, obviously I can't say much here, but let me say what I can as simply as possible so as not to be misconstrued:

a) I have no intention of getting into a bidding war with Paragon or anyone else. For one thing it's not good for the game, for another, I can't afford it.

b) Money is really complicated. Please don't ask about it.

b) If Paragon* is in closed negotiations with NCSoft, they may not be allowed to talk to me, and I don't want to corner them. I also don't know what they need. However, I'm more than happy to work out an agreement between whatever is left of Paragon and my own group. I don't presently have any way of contacting them, since all the email addresses *I* had for them ended in @paragon.com - and they're not checking those anymore for some reason. 

*Paragon is, as I am using it here, the term for Brian and whatever's left of the management group that's currently in whatever negotiations that are happening with NCSoft. Is that the term in use generally?

Damn that is a really bummer, even though I understand it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Shadowe on September 25, 2012, 06:57:57 PM
Perhaps try hitting up Melissa Bianco or Matt Miller on Twitter by private message and asking if they have any contact details they can pass along?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Tanglefoe on September 25, 2012, 09:57:42 PM
As far as what they've told me, no I haven't even heard as much as "Not interested, go away." Still working.

Regarding bidding wars or supporting Paragon, obviously I can't say much here, but let me say what I can as simply as possible so as not to be misconstrued:

a) I have no intention of getting into a bidding war with Paragon or anyone else. For one thing it's not good for the game, for another, I can't afford it.

b) Money is really complicated. Please don't ask about it.

b) If Paragon* is in closed negotiations with NCSoft, they may not be allowed to talk to me, and I don't want to corner them. I also don't know what they need. However, I'm more than happy to work out an agreement between whatever is left of Paragon and my own group. I don't presently have any way of contacting them, since all the email addresses *I* had for them ended in @paragon.com - and they're not checking those anymore for some reason.  (Edit: That "for some reason" is ever so gentle sarcasm.)

*Paragon is, as I am using it here, the term for Brian and whatever's left of the management group that's currently in whatever negotiations that are happening with NCSoft. Is that the term in use generally?

Edit, about 2 hours later: I should really check my messages before posting.

 :o
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 25, 2012, 10:08:56 PM
I, too, am curious. o.o;
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Coolio_Wolfus on September 25, 2012, 11:14:02 PM
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 25, 2012, 11:21:54 PM
Don't know where to post this or if it's the wrong section someone will move it but:

1. Please keep the media spreadsheet updated.

2. I think I've found a potential loophole...

Do we have that quote anywhere on the NCSoft COH pages anyone can screenshot or save the page of, as I feel it's definitely something we could use.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=na.cityofheroes.com%2Fglobal%2Fincludes%2Fimages%2Ftemplate-items%2Fheadings%2Ffreedom.jpg)

Guessing NCSoft approved that advertising...  ;)

Don't want to rain on your idea, however people who ARE lawyers have already said NCSoft cannot be held to "play free forever" as stating "we will keep the game running forever."  Sorry, but that dog won't hunt.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Coolio_Wolfus on September 25, 2012, 11:28:42 PM
Don't want to rain on your idea, however people who ARE lawyers have already said NCSoft cannot be held to "play free forever" as stating "we will keep the game running forever."  Sorry, but that dog won't hunt.

I understand but...
Look at that pic again.

Play for Free (Stop)
Forever (Stop)

Not "Play for free, forever."

"Forever." is marked as it's own sentence imho.

Just my 2 inf.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Stormy Weathermaker on September 25, 2012, 11:51:30 PM
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 25, 2012, 11:53:50 PM
I understand but...
Look at that pic again.

Play for Free (Stop)
Forever (Stop)

Not "Play for free, forever."

"Forever." is marked as it's own sentence imho.

Just my 2 inf.

That dog still won't hunt.

Legally, this is equivalent to a "lifetime warrantee"

I can get a lifetime warrantee on a refrigerator, but if the company goes out of business, there's no one to honor that that warrantee and I'm out of luck.

I can play free "forever" does not mean the game will exist forever.  It means I can play free as long as the game exists.

However you are perfectly free to spend several thousands of dollars on lawyers finding that out.  Anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country and there are unscrupulous lawyers who will be happy to take your money and tell you that you have a case.  The couple of honest lawyers (start my heart) who populate this board are telling everyone this tactic will not work. 

Go ahead and sue.  I've actually been involved in a legitimate case against my insurance company.  Be prepared to watch every spare cent and spare bit of time you have sucked down into a black hole that is the legal accounting office, watch their legal counsel drag your reputation through the dirt, and in the end you will get nothing.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 26, 2012, 12:04:04 AM
That dog still won't hunt.

Legally, this is equivalent to a "lifetime warrantee"

I can get a lifetime warrantee on a refrigerator, but if the company goes out of business, there's no one to honor that that warrantee and I'm out of luck.

I can play free "forever" does not mean the game will exist forever.  It means I can play free as long as the game exists.

However you are perfectly free to spend several thousands of dollars on lawyers finding that out.  Anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country and there are unscrupulous lawyers who will be happy to take your money and tell you that you have a case.  The couple of honest lawyers (start my heart) who populate this board are telling everyone this tactic will not work. 

Go ahead and sue.  I've actually been involved in a legitimate case against my insurance company.  Be prepared to watch every spare cent and spare bit of time you have sucked down into a black hole that is the legal accounting office, watch their legal counsel drag your reputation through the dirt, and in the end you will get nothing.

YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY, SIR! >.>
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: downix on September 26, 2012, 12:04:51 AM
YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY, SIR! >.>
They do need a "like" button here....
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 26, 2012, 12:16:21 AM
Awww now I didn't mean it in a nasty sense...

Let me short form what happened in my own legal case.

We had an accidental fire in my husband's studio.  It occurred mere minutes after we returned from a long trip.  Everyone agreed it was an accident.  The investigator.  The fire department.  The evidence.

My insurance company then attempted to say it was arson, based on the fact that there were volatile chemicals and oil in the carpet.  (IT WAS AN ART STUDIO!  ARTISTS USE VOLATILE CHEMICALS AND OIL!  AND THEY SPILL A LOT!)  Completely ignoring the fact that their own investigator found it was started by an electrical short.

We had to sue.  A year later, increasing depression (I was popping 3 prozac a day, my husband was popping 4), being told Larry's damaged drawings and paintings were "worth nothing", and having had the insurance companies lawyers read the gay "sex scenes" from the Herald-Mage books into the pre-trial record (I am not making this up.  And I had to answer yes or no to whether I wrote them--it was obvious they were going to actually use these scenes as an attempt to prejudice a rural Oklahoma jury against us) and bring up every book or story I ever wrote with "Fire" "Flame" or "Burn" in the title as evidence that I was a pyro (I am not making that up either) we went into arbitration.  We ended up getting back about half of what we had spent on rebuilding the studio and cleaning and saving what we could.  Which means, essentially, we were now deeply in a financial hole, as well as a psychiatric hole.

This was the outcome with a solid case.  This is why I would only advocate a class action suit where there was some kind of evidence that we could win...the "no refunds" might, maybe, barely, have had a chance, and NCSoft took care of that by offering refunds.  So right now, I stand with the legal eagles in saying "For Godssake don't go there."
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 26, 2012, 12:38:46 AM

Quote
We had to sue.  A year later, increasing depression (I was popping 3 prozac a day, my husband was popping 4), being told Larry's damaged drawings and paintings were "worth nothing", and having had the insurance companies lawyers read the gay "sex scenes" from the Herald-Mage books into the pre-trial record (I am not making this up.  And I had to answer yes or no to whether I wrote them--it was obvious they were going to actually use these scenes as an attempt to prejudice a rural Oklahoma jury against us) and bring up every book or story I ever wrote with "Fire" "Flame" or "Burn" in the title as evidence that I was a pyro (I am not making that up either) we went into arbitration.  We ended up getting back about half of what we had spent on rebuilding the studio and cleaning and saving what we could.  Which means, essentially, we were now deeply in a financial hole, as well as a psychiatric hole.

Sweet baba-la-hummala!  They must have been flopping around like a frog on a hot plate over "Burning Brightly".

Even hating "people" the way I do sometimes, it STILL amazes me the lengths schysters and idiots go to sometimes.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 26, 2012, 01:29:37 AM
That should've been a mistrial the moment they brought the sex books into it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Stormy Weathermaker on September 26, 2012, 01:42:25 AM
That dog still won't hunt.

Legally, this is equivalent to a "lifetime warrantee"

I can get a lifetime warrantee on a refrigerator, but if the company goes out of business, there's no one to honor that that warrantee and I'm out of luck.

I can play free "forever" does not mean the game will exist forever.  It means I can play free as long as the game exists.

However you are perfectly free to spend several thousands of dollars on lawyers finding that out.  Anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country and there are unscrupulous lawyers who will be happy to take your money and tell you that you have a case.  The couple of honest lawyers (start my heart) who populate this board are telling everyone this tactic will not work. 

Go ahead and sue.  I've actually been involved in a legitimate case against my insurance company.  Be prepared to watch every spare cent and spare bit of time you have sucked down into a black hole that is the legal accounting office, watch their legal counsel drag your reputation through the dirt, and in the end you will get nothing.

Oh, I understood what you meant VV and I agree with you completely. I have no interest in having a lawyer suck up all my $$ or my time to tell me what I already know.   I was just merely showing how it was stated on the "official web site" is all.  Can't play through NCSoft servers if they are flipping the switch on 11/30. 

YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY, SIR! >.>
  WILLY WONKA!!!!! ;D

Yikes  VV! Sounds like you've had an extremely rough year  :-[  I hope everything is better for you now :)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 26, 2012, 01:50:00 AM
That should've been a mistrial the moment they brought the sex books into it.

Here's how it would have gone.

Defending Insurance Attorney:  <Reads the scene>  Did you write that?
My Attorney: Objection! This is not relevant to the case!
Judge: Objection sustained.  The Jury will disregard that reading.
Defending Insurance Attorney: <smirks, and reads another>

Now....you tell me HOW you get a rural Oklahoma jury to "disregard" a gay "sex" scene (there wasn't much "sex" in it, but it sure was gay) after one has been read to them?  In their minds I have now gone from "their neighbor being screwed over by the big insurance company" to "that freaky woman who is definitely a hippie and a pinko and probably a pedophile."

As long as ANYTHING is put into the record during the pretrial "discovery" process it can and will be used in the trial.  And regardless of whether the jury is told to disregard it, once the information is in their heads, you can't take it out again.

This is why I warn people about getting into a lawsuit with a big company, because they have slimeballs who will do nothing for weeks at a time but dig up anything and everything they can to discredit you as a person and read it into the court record during discovery.  That's even easier now that people post things online.  And once on the internet, thanks to the Wayback Machine, it is there forever.

This is why we went to arbitration, instead of to trial.  MAYBE we could have won big against them, but....versus at least getting something back.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Olantern on September 26, 2012, 02:11:26 AM
Guess I do have to make that post about litigation ... though VV's story ought to be enough on its own.

For the moment, I'll just say that suing based on something like this will take you to a place you don't want to go.  I think it's also drawing this thread a bit off-topic.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 26, 2012, 02:16:48 AM
Back ON topic, Brian told me he hoped to have some news a little after midweek.  Please note he said HOPED, so this is not a promise of anything.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 26, 2012, 02:18:59 AM
It may be superfluous, but nonetheless, I wish him luck.

Still waiting to hear back from my own contacts.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 26, 2012, 03:59:09 AM
/me sings "Uprising" by Muse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8KQmps-Sog
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Samuraiko on September 26, 2012, 04:50:16 AM
/me sings "Uprising" by Muse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8KQmps-Sog

I think I still have my script for a Praetoria video to this song...

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 26, 2012, 04:58:32 AM
I think I still have my script for a Praetoria video to this song...

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

It's a great song for it, isn't it?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: StarRanger4 on September 26, 2012, 06:36:07 AM
Back ON topic, Brian told me he hoped to have some news a little after midweek.  Please note he said HOPED, so this is not a promise of anything.

I hope so.  Good, or not, this waiting has been pushing my symptoms past where the Paxil can control
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 26, 2012, 06:54:44 AM
I hope so.  Good, or not, this waiting has been pushing my symptoms past where the Paxil can control

/me gives StarRanger4 a big ol' Grimmy Hug.

Hang in there, mate.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 26, 2012, 06:58:53 AM
I hope so.  Good, or not, this waiting has been pushing my symptoms past where the Paxil can control

For me, it's Absinthe...
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Samuraiko on September 26, 2012, 07:31:07 AM
For me, it's Absinthe...

Of course, absinthe makes the heart grow fonder. *grins*

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Coolio_Wolfus on September 26, 2012, 09:01:45 AM
Couple of other suitable songs:
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 26, 2012, 09:07:00 AM
"Imagine" by A Perfect Circle.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Hyperstrike on September 26, 2012, 01:38:23 PM
Hey guys.  Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.

We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.

Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.

I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially".  Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.

In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 26, 2012, 01:39:33 PM
Don't forget the vile deeds that need doing in the Rogue Isles!

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: steelrat70 on September 26, 2012, 04:13:51 PM
Hey guys.  Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.

We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.

Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.

I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially".  Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.

In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!

QFT.

Me n the missus are currently duo'ing our hearts out so that she can get her first 50 before the servers shut down.  She started playing in June, absolutely fell in love with the game (having never played a PC game before) and was probably more upset than me at the news of its impending demise.

If you're on Union and see either of her toons (Dream Evils Eve - Fire / Dark Corr or Si Klone - Grav / Storm Cont) be nice ;)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: steelrat70 on September 26, 2012, 04:32:04 PM
I hope she is enjoying the keyboard that she won ;)

Ha ha..  she's only just stopped enthusing about it to be honest!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 26, 2012, 06:40:40 PM
Is that the keyboard that's backlit by tri-colored LED's and can be set to do a rainbow effect?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: lmollea on September 26, 2012, 08:48:56 PM
Hi all, sorry for the english, I'm from europe and english's my "second" language. I won't be short, and these may be random thoughts, apologize in advance for any confusion and mistakes.

Came here pointed probably by a Massive article and read TonyV ideas. The ideas are good, but I'd share my thought on this issue.
I'm 40 years old, I work as an IT consultant (not in games but I have quite decent server and network programming skills) a master degree in engineering and CS with 15 years experience.
This is not to boast but only to say that my opinions are based on the hard facts of software developments and companies.

I see a passionate community, but I'd really like to pinpoint one word that very few raised in this discussion.
Money.
And lot of it (think million $).
CoH wont "move" from NCSoft/Nexon hands if we can't raise such amounts. No less.

Some ideas on the shutdown reasons:
* CoH was shut down because it wasn't anymore a profitable enterprise [but see note 1 below]. I was told CoH was running fine, but I never saw real figures (but I remember they shutting down french and german operations just a couple month back).
* CoH may have been profitable but it was endangering NCSoft/Nexon business plans (eating revenues from other games for example). In this case it would be *really, really* hard to strike a bargain.
* CoH was shut down because its operation costs were raising and its owner didn't want to encouragre this trend and Paragon Studios wasn't able to improve the operating costs.
* CoH was shut down because Paragon Studios and NCSoft entered a sort of unresolvable litigation. We may strike a bargain with NCSoft, but not with Paragon.
* CoH was shut down for legal issues. If really Cryptic owns CoH engine, then we may be screwed again: Perfect World - Cryptic's owner - could possibly have revoked the licence from Paragon Studios hands. Why? Licence may have expired and not renewed. Why? Champions Online is strong, why not suffocate the competition?
Note 1: Are there available in US public figures for Paragon Studios balance sheet? Here in Italy all companies must give their balance sheet at the end of the fiscal year at the local "Chamber of Commerce" so that's available for everyone to see. To see it you have to pay a small fee (15E) but can shed some lights on revenues and expenses.

Plans? Honestly I wasn't an active player anymore, but I still logged every now and then just to poke around. I still kept up with the updates and the developments. I still consider myself part of the fantastic community and still have fun memories of the 2+ years I roamed the streets of Paragon.

Anyway, I'd share my thougths on the plans:

A) Acquiring COH. I repeat myself: think millions. And possibly all the possible legal issues that I stated above. Possible, but not really. Would you find thousands of people investing thousands $ in such operation? What would they want then? Revenues? Just a permanent VIP status? I really don't see so many people willing to give all this money and not getting anything back at least worth the money.

A2) Rewriting a spiritual successor. Providing that we won't have any kind of legal issue in writing it, god knows how much I would like that dream to be true, but then I stop, thinking to all the effort needed: programmers are the least. You need game designers, graphics, sound artists, level designers, ... oh, and marketing, you would want that people know you exist, don't you? Again, think millions. And many years. As long as this game *is* the community, would you stick around for 5 or more years if not directly involved in the development? For those who knows planeshift, I still wonder how that goes on, if not for the fact that it's just a playground of some friends that spend part of their day job money on this kind of entertainment. And then don't forget one thing: disappointment. What would the spiritual successor be? Would it appeal to the old players, would it have changes, improvements, betterments, ... Beware, I don't want to bash the idea neither play the doomsayer, just to be realistic in the possible expectations.

B) Another Studio. That would be probably the "shining knight" but I really doubt it. CoH is 2004 technology. Handing over software to someone that wasn't involved in making it only means trouble. The studio would only buy it if they were certain that the game would be profitable in the really short term (< 1 year). I doubt it really much.

C) Reverse engineering. This is no different than A2. Plus all the legal issues. And the fact that when you'll have it up and running would it remain "fixed" or would it evolve? Will there be new "Issues"? MMO works because they are all living and evolving beasts. A static beast would not be interesting for anyone. And bandwith and server all have a cost and bills need to be paid. No, we're not talking about the 15$ of a wordpress account, it's something at least in the 100k/year order.

Other ideas?

Until we know what's really caused the sudden closure of the game, we can only speculate. I'd add my idea, provided that NCSoft *and all other interested parties* can be conviced to let CoH live.
If it's real what you said, that CoH at certain moments was running with 40 people behind it (I include all the necessary people in it: programmes, game designers, support and operations, ...) to replicate it we either would need 40 paid people with the same skills. Or maybe 200 volunteers distributed in all the different areas to equal them. Working 8x5 can be achieved nearly with 5 times the people. I'd give 5-10 hours of my time to such a project, as long as I have a job on my day hours. Younger people may give more hours but I'm basing my estimates on an average. Anyway, I would pay them a little, why? All the Open Source projects that work are generally those funded at least in part by a company. Pure volunteering means that you can leave your tasks unfinished simply because you're bored, you found something more interesting, or because your "real life" brings you away from your "hobbies". Money can keep people focused and directed toward an objective. It would not be a "permanent contract" but only task based. Giving the right quotation can be the hard part, but let's say that this model can work.
Then we'd have server, bandwidth, et cetera.
Then we'd have to protect the IP as per NCSoft willing. IP is NCSoft propriety and if they won't relinquish it, we would have to keep it protected. No Open Source, then. No Creative Commons for the artwork. No revealing of possible industrial secrets. And that would be really hard especially with volunteer which you cannot control or arent behind the same company firewall.
Then as per plan B) we'd have to learn the operation an the inner facts (and WTFs) of the code and game. No easy task.

All this means the game won't be free or at least it would follow the same F2P revenue model it had just before shutdown. We'd have to make it "profitable" or at least run at its costs. How? I don't know if a "no profit" organization could run this (that depends on laws and the country in which this resides, I'm no expert in US laws) or we should have a company: who'd own the company? Who'd run the project anyway? Who'd give directions, orders, recruit people, ... and we'd have expectations of customers to meet...
Things aren't easy at all...

How we can convice NCSoft? Only with money. And this means that they should have a licence cost paid. Either we have to pay them a flat licence or they get a share of the revenue, bast for us would be for example be give a big share but only if we make revenue. This last idea could save us: if we fail, it's only us that lose. If we keep it up, NCSoft will get some money without any effort from her side.
Anyway even if we and NCSoft would agree tomorrow on the contract terms, I wouldn't see a "beta" of the thing available before feb 2013. And live operation not before april/june 2013. And those months we'd still have bills to pay for server and bandwith...

Can we do this? I don't know. There are many passionate people around here, but I'm not so positive. This would be a "second unpaid job" and I don't know how many people would do it.

That's all, hope I shed light on what my thought are. Feel free to comment and ask clarifications.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 26, 2012, 09:02:54 PM
Crytpic did not discontinue the license for the engine, and would not be adverse to continuing to license it to a new owner of the CoH IP.

All reports are that CoH/Paragon Studios were profitable. Perhaps not as profitable as other elements of NCSoft's properties, but it was not due to losing money that it was shut down.

The best indications I've been able to get from my research demonstrate a re-focusing of NCSoft on asian markets, and a disinterest in continuing to spend money - even if it is returning more than is being spent - on games that are only popular in the US. Combine this with numerous employee testimonials about NCSoft's over-micromanaging tendencies in western subsidiaries, it makes sense that NCSoft would not be interested in western subsidiaries' work if it is not popular in the market where their management style helps. They would see the more effort they, personally, put in, the less profitable it became (or at least, they'd see no to negative return on their invested attention).

I cannot claim to be connected in any way to the negotiations between NCSoft and Paragon Studios, and my research has been deductive and inductive rather than explicit in its revelations. I would like to know more, but obviously, they've little reason to share more with me. I do not doubt there are legitimate (I reserve judgment on "good" or "bad") business reasons for their decisions, and you're right; there are possible reasons NCSoft would want to hold onto the IP even as they kill its money-making potential by shutting down its outlet.

Should we find out that money is the deciding issue, I assure you, more than one person is poised to start a kickstarter (and the challenge will be ensuring we start only ONE so as not to split efforts), and others are looking for investors.

People are aware enough of the issues to know they do not know all the issues. We're working with what we have and on getting more information, but...well. It's hard. So it takes time, delicacy, and effort.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Kheprera on September 26, 2012, 09:06:03 PM
TL;DR just hitting a few points...

We are well aware of the cost of what we are hoping for.  A loose number currently tossed around is ~$10,000,000.00. Likely more.  This is why we hope to find another publisher or investors. Ideas to toss towards investors have included a mobile platform version of the game.

Cryptic has stated that the game engine license had no end date.  It could be used in perpetuity.

As  for a Spiritual Successor... check out the City Sunset forum here.  We already have quite a bit of brainstorming going on.  Your input would be appreciated. :)

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 12:20:10 AM
@Imollea

All of your points have been covered pretty adequately already (short of knowing the actual profit figures of Paragon Studios, we have War Witch's personal statement to me, which I can recover in my chat files, of "We were doing so WELL!").  Some of your concerns have been discussed to death.  Please read the rest of the threads, and when you have caught up, get back to us.  I know that is a lot of reading, but you wouldn't jump in with opinions and changes on an existing OS you had been hired to work with without actually LEARNING it, doing your due diligence, and getting up to speed with the rest of the project team, and the same holds here.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: ukaserex on September 27, 2012, 12:46:28 AM
Hey guys.  Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.

We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.

Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.

I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially".  Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.

In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!

Partially because of Hyperstrike's pom-poms  ;D
I have decided to run, or at least try to run another iTrial this weekend. (On Liberty - we're not quite dead there yet.)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 12:53:17 AM
Now is the time when NCSoft, their PR firm, or both, will try to infiltrate this site with trolls/moles.  We are clearly having an effect.  They want us to "sit down, shut up, go away."  This is well-known tactic dating back to the early days of union organizing and before. 

Watch for new people that are posting nothing but defeatist, negativity and divisiveness.

Watch for people hauling politics into discussions and trying to start fights.

Report to moderators.  Thread starters can self-moderate their own threads.  See something that looks wrong, nuke it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: emu265 on September 27, 2012, 12:59:38 AM
Now is the time when NCSoft, their PR firm, or both, will try to infiltrate this site with trolls/moles.  We are clearly having an effect.  They want us to "sit down, shut up, go away."  This is well-known tactic dating back to the early days of union organizing and before. 

Watch for new people that are posting nothing but defeatist, negativity and divisiveness.

Watch for people hauling politics into discussions and trying to start fights.

Report to moderators.  Thread starters can self-moderate their own threads.  See something that looks wrong, nuke it.

I addressed this in the FAQ thread, but I'll rehash here as well.

This is a very real tactic.  If this is hurting NCsoft, they're going to do everything in their power to make it stop.  It's no secret that Titan Network is our base of operations and account registration is free and simple.  It'd only take a few minutes to register and post something discouraging.   Given that it's so easy, and possibly effective, why wouldn't they give it a shot?  We made them blink, we cannot pretend like they're ignoring us anymore. 

Even if you want to write this sort of thing off as paranoia, it will not hurt you to keep a watchful eye.  Above all, keep your spirits up.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 27, 2012, 01:08:20 AM
...poor little trolls. Don't they know we beat them up for their lunch money on a regular basis? >.>
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: emu265 on September 27, 2012, 01:09:44 AM
...poor little trolls. Don't they know we beat them up for their lunch money on a regular basis? >.>
We beat them up before they cause problems.  That's what heroes do ;)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: downix on September 27, 2012, 01:13:11 AM
We beat them up before they cause problems.  That's what heroes do ;)
Especially when they're holding a rave. No Supa-Trolls!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Kheprera on September 27, 2012, 01:26:00 AM
Now now... we're heroes...

And geeks...

We troll the trolls in such a way they don't realize they're being trolled until their argument has been reduced into itty bitty microbes of dust.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: FlameBailador on September 27, 2012, 01:57:53 AM
I'm a bit of a troll myself.  But not in a bad way.  I am not the most vocal person in the world, but definitely count myself as a Woman in Tights.  Not sure how I can help in the grand scheme of things (I don't know anyone important, don't have any computer skills, etc.), but when I see something I CAN do, I'm right there.  Sent in my cape and mask, wrote my letters, and was in one of the many Atlas Parks during our big event.   ;D  Couldn't attend the Posi's due to RL stuff with the kids, but I'm reading the posts daily and watching for the next call to action.  I'm right here for ya'll with my pom poms and megaphone.  :)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: eabrace on September 27, 2012, 02:14:29 AM
We troll the trolls in such a way they don't realize they're being trolled until their argument has been reduced into itty bitty microbes of dust.
Meta-Trolling.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 03:21:13 AM
*gulp*

Politics? That is a bit of a (okay, a big) weakness of mine. I shall do my best to curb my instincts just in case.

So, out of curiosity, what makes "now" the right time for this sort of thing to start?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 03:38:19 AM
*gulp*

Politics? That is a bit of a (okay, a big) weakness of mine. I shall do my best to curb my instincts just in case.

So, out of curiosity, what makes "now" the right time for this sort of thing to start?

It's kind of a three-week thing.  We lasted more than three weeks, and we are STILL getting attention.  If anything, the attention is spreading, and it's beginning to creep over to their other products in a negative fashion.  We didn't lose heart or momentum when all the "usual" ploys were tried to silence us, we didn't lose heart or attention when they silenced Zwill, and we're obviously focused.  So time to try sabotage and scatter the sheep.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Knightward on September 27, 2012, 03:39:29 AM
I suspect because we're sustaining this.  Give time to see whether or not it's just a flash in the pan, and potentially once morale has been dipping.  That way it's easier to tear it apart from the inside.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 03:48:22 AM
Ah. "Three weeks" is the time signal for that, huh? Interesting.

Oddly, I'm not one of the partisans who're hostile to NCSoft over this; I just think they're making a tragic, bad business decision. And I hope to (or at least to see somebody) change their minds, because I like it when everybody wins. Including NCSoft, if they'll make a deal to part with the IP they no longer wish to support.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 04:01:53 AM
That's why I am trying to stay on target with this, Segev.  They have made it clear they have no intention of reviving the game (and at this point I am inclined to agree with others that have said that they can't within their own culture, because doing so would "prove" they were "wrong.")

All I want is to pressure them into releasing the IP to someone else.  After that, I am "moderately" indifferent, and I certainly do not want to see them shit-can other NCSoft West employees or torpedo ArenaNet.

That doesn't mean that I am ever going to trust them with my money or heart again.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 27, 2012, 04:07:28 AM
The only way NCSoft will earn my eternal ire is by torpedoing City of Heroes and not releasing the IP. Otherwise...whatever.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Joshex on September 27, 2012, 04:13:32 AM
so what is the state of the titan? I've been absent recently, any updates on the negotiations with NCSoft?

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 27, 2012, 04:14:18 AM
I addressed this in the FAQ thread, but I'll rehash here as well.

This is a very real tactic.  If this is hurting NCsoft, they're going to do everything in their power to make it stop.  It's no secret that Titan Network is our base of operations and account registration is free and simple.  It'd only take a few minutes to register and post something discouraging.   Given that it's so easy, and possibly effective, why wouldn't they give it a shot?  We made them blink, we cannot pretend like they're ignoring us anymore. 

Even if you want to write this sort of thing off as paranoia, it will not hurt you to keep a watchful eye.  Above all, keep your spirits up.

Yeah, my head hit the desk when EA got caught pulling this crap. It really made me think, "What the heck is the point to individuality anymore if any business can just go in and do that?"

And it may have already happened here. Whoever it was that made his first post here, a rant about something that got posted on the official Twitter? About a joke that involved calling a GW2 ad offensive. I saw an almost identical post on the NC forums, and on at least one of the FB groups in the same 12 hours.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: StarRanger4 on September 27, 2012, 04:16:05 AM
so what is the state of the titan? I've been absent recently, any updates on the negotiations with NCSoft?

No updates.  We might hear something by the end of the week; VV's friend inside the loop hoped to hear something soon.
When word gets out, I'm sure Tony will post it here as soon as he can
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 27, 2012, 04:31:29 AM
Well, I don't want to be the one who is discouraging, or negative, despite the fact that I am angry about NC's continual bad behavior in this sector (see the fool me six times thread).

I am, however, going to make some observations.

1. I'm a realist, and, yes, a pessimist, and I'm not going to be closed about the fact that our chances of saving CoH are slim, and always were. Not zero, not that we shouldn't try, but that we should think of alternatives.

2. The people in the Champions Online forums have been speculating that the death of CoH represents a change in the market, and that they're next. In other words, we have allies over there. Personally, I like CO, not as much as CoH, and I know that many CoHers are now playing CO (and many were playing both before as well). Not all CoHers do like CO, of course, and the reasons for this are obvious. For this reason, it's not a "substitute" for CoH, but for some of us, it's a life boat. A lifeboat to where, though?

3. A lifeboat to what we're calling Plan Z is the answer. The amount of stuff that is getting put together for Plan Z is awe-inspiring, given the fact that this is an entirely volunteer operation without any funding, official leadership, or direction other than that we want to save CoH. We're going to need these things if Plan Z is ever to succeed, but we have ideas floating around concerning that; they're just dedicated to saving CoH at the moment, as well they should be.

And, come November 30, I'm going to be running some forum games (moderators, please give me a section of Titan forums in which to do this) that will also help act as a lifeboat for some of those for whom CO is not.

*

By the way, I'm actually happy to hear that some of the devs have found their way back to Cryptic. They're real people, real heroes, with real lives. Cryptic made CoH. Now that they're home again, it's only a matter of time before they either remake CO to the point where it is a substitute for CoH, or else they make something else that is equally cool.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 27, 2012, 04:58:14 AM
Aye, chaparralshrub... I hadn't thought about what other game communities are thinking about all of this, beyond "Dayum, those guys are dedicated", but I can imagine it must be a bit scary, akin to one of the World Wars, and "I hope the war doesn't come here."

I could easily see a situation where we keep getting pushed back, as more of the pre-WoW-clone MMO's (where most of the visionary development was) fall, until we ALL wind up at the last remaining one, whatever that may be.

But I have a feeling the industry will start trying to be more creative again before it comes to that. After so many failures at trying to beat it, companies can't forever live under the delusion that the only way to get WoW-level subs is to copy WoW... can they?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 27, 2012, 05:23:38 AM
I could easily see a situation where we keep getting pushed back, as more of the pre-WoW-clone MMO's (where most of the visionary development was) fall, until we ALL wind up at the last remaining one, whatever that may be.

Not sure what you mean - that we, Plan Z, will keep getting pushed back? The plan for Plan Z is to have a few zones and missions and things get put out quickly, and then build up over time. We'll be smaller at launch than CoH was, but not by a *whole* lot.


It's kind of a three-week thing.  We lasted more than three weeks, and we are STILL getting attention.  If anything, the attention is spreading, and it's beginning to creep over to their other products in a negative fashion.  We didn't lose heart or momentum when all the "usual" ploys were tried to silence us, we didn't lose heart or attention when they silenced Zwill, and we're obviously focused.  So time to try sabotage and scatter the sheep.

Not that I want to gainsay somebody who is clearly more experienced, credentialed, and wiser in this regard than myself, but I would like to propose the following policies toward suspected moles/saboteurs:

(more ranting on my part ;))


1. Just because somebody is new doesn't mean they're a mole. Should be self-explanatory, but if we're gaining recognition, then other people may come to join us as well. Some of them will have good intentions.

2. Our situation is somewhat grim. Feeling discouraged is not a sign of "disloyalty" whatever that means. Of course, we should talk it up when we see it, because we do have options. Personally, I think plan Z's chances of success are better than we initially believed. There remain some pieces that we absolutely need (e.g. skills in running a company), but it's clear that there are people on this forum that may have that; they're just applying their skills toward trying to save CoH as long as that remains a possibility.

Remember - when factions are feeling like they're on the ropes, there is an instinctive reaction to look for traitors. In this case, the worst thing that traitors can do to us is try to bring our morale down or start fights. Fights can be handled by moderators, and morale is our own business. For this reason, I would much rather have a few moles on Titan than incorrectly brand anyone trying to save CoH in some way, shape, or form (Plan Z included). Being branded a traitor when you aren't is terrible for morale, as is the fear of having that happen, even if it doesn't.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 05:30:28 AM
I figure most of us know depression from an outright attempt to sow dissent.  This is probably a saner bunch than 99% of the political organizations I've ever belonged to.  Wait, that was praising with faint damns....

I just want people to be cautious, because for a group like ours, small, fighting an uphill battle, it is so easy to unthinkingly, and indiscriminately welcome anyone who joins. 

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 27, 2012, 05:36:14 AM
Not sure what you mean - that we, Plan Z, will keep getting pushed back? The plan for Plan Z is to have a few zones and missions and things get put out quickly, and then build up over time. We'll be smaller at launch than CoH was, but not by a *whole* lot.

No no no, I mean as far as "official" games are concerned. It remains to be seen how quickly Phoenix can be up and running in an Alpha state, but these things certainly don't happen overnight. In the meantime, given that most MMO's are just trying to replicate Blizzard only better, those of us who were there during the pioneer days of MMO's are still longing for a sense of open-world immersion instead of being told where to go along a linear path all the time, and like wildlife losing territory to climate change, will keep migrating to wherever the grass is still green, even as the amount of habitable territory continues to wane.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 27, 2012, 05:41:34 AM
I figure most of us know depression from an outright attempt to sow dissent.  This is probably a saner bunch than 99% of the political organizations I've ever belonged to.  Wait, that was praising with faint damns....

I just want people to be cautious, because for a group like ours, small, fighting an uphill battle, it is so easy to unthinkingly, and indiscriminately welcome anyone who joins.

We stand resolute. Let the naysayers come. Their baleful bleating shall break upon us, as wind breaks upon stone.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 27, 2012, 05:48:31 AM
If anyone sees a post or a user who they suspect is an astroturfer, let me know.  I'm allowing a little bit of leeway for discussion and, yes, even dissent.  But if I feel that someone is actively trying to sabotage our efforts, I'll deal with it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Mistress Urd on September 27, 2012, 06:45:27 AM
Hey guys.  Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.

We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.

Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.

I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially".  Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.

In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!

Haven't jumped ship yet. Looking, sure but I have yet to find something that does as many things that CoH does well. I'll wait til the end of October and see what new news there is.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TheFlea on September 27, 2012, 07:47:41 AM
Hey guys.  Just wanted to barge in and say "don't jump ship" yet.

We've still got a couple months here, and the negotiations with NCSoft are ongoing.

Until we get notice from the guys at Paragon that this is dead, it ain't over.

I know it's killing you all that you're hearing so little "officially".  Unfortunately, business negotiations are kinda like that.

In the mean time, there are bad guys in Paragon City in need of a thorough whupping.
I suggest we oblige them!

It's as I've said to various other SGs and groups - at this moment in time the main reasons you're seeing a lot of quiet and inactivity is that people have left to lick their wounds. Some won't come back because they just don't want to face the chance they'll be hurt again.  I suspect that population will pick up over the next month after the initial shock has passed and settled down. The more you guys do to stir up rallies etc. the more people will want to come back.

It's a reaction to pain, nothing more. People jumped ship because they were hurt and didn't want to face the pain being dragged out or made worse. I'm still about, but not as much as I used to be because a lot of friends have disappeared and this whole situation has caused my depression to flare up again, which isn't pleasant as you can imagine.

Also - I ain't no mole. I'm a known moody bastard and asshole whose snark became infamous.

Former Officer in the Lions Den PvP SG on Victory.
Former Creepy Old Uncle of the PWNZ forums.
The First Spine/SR in PvP.

That's me.

Not some burrowing rodent with a communist agenda!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: The-Hunter-JLJ on September 27, 2012, 11:25:24 AM
Let me remind people of something else. Like VV, I've got a background in political activism going way back, in my case of the libertarian persuasion. I could even point you to a website full of polemics I've written for the cause over the years if you cared. As an old friend of mine way back in the early years of gaming used to say "I always go by my own name".

I've dealt with my share of moles and informers over the years. Coming in and trying to sow gloom and depression is not how they operate. That would be WAY too low-key. What they always have done in my experience has been to egg you on. Usually pointing toward something spectacularly stupid that you can easily be arrested for. Usually under the guise of

Now, a corporate stooge might operate a bit differently. I've had occasion to observe THEM, too, in my day job. They *can* be slightly more dangerous sometimes, and considerably less predictable. But again, subtle psychological warfare is not what they're going to attempt. They want to get the goods on somebody, or provoke them into doing something actionable, or something that makes the cause look bad. They might use defeatist talk as part of their rhetoric, but usually not just in an attempt to get you to give up.

So, don't do anything stupid, and keep your spirits up. We've undoubtedly got people from their PR firm at the very least reading this website, and/or very likely someone from their corporate security. "Just smile and wave, boys, just smile and wave." *We* are the good guys here, which has to stick in their craws, and they'd like nothing better than to pin some destructive or childish act on us to diminish our standing in the public eye. Don't give 'em the satisfaction.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TheBeatnik on September 27, 2012, 11:30:25 AM
The mention of other games and other gaming communities gave me the smallest hint of an idea.
What if we were to plan and carry out Unity support rallies in other games? Those folks who
play CO could organize  a "Millennium City Supports Paragon City" event; players of The Secret World
could have a rally in New York protesting Orochi Corp's closing of City of Heroes, etc.

If we worked in cooperation with those games' communities to pull this off, we could gain several benefits
by doing this: we'd increase our visibility still further, educate gamers who have yet to have heard of our situation,
and demonstrate to the industry that our support is not simply limited to one game.

Since it's just now 6 AM as I write this, and I'm not used to having ideas so early in the morning,
I thought I'd just toss this out and see what folks think.

The Beatnik,
more used to shaving, showering, dressing, and driving to work while still asleep.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Quinch on September 27, 2012, 11:54:04 AM
I... don't really play any other MMOs.

But if that happened, it would be awesome.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: EClark on September 27, 2012, 12:04:55 PM
The mention of other games and other gaming communities gave me the smallest hint of an idea.
What if we were to plan and carry out Unity support rallies in other games? Those folks who
play CO could organize  a "Millennium City Supports Paragon City" event; players of The Secret World
could have a rally in New York protesting Orochi Corp's closing of City of Heroes, etc.

If we worked in cooperation with those games' communities to pull this off, we could gain several benefits
by doing this: we'd increase our visibility still further, educate gamers who have yet to have heard of our situation,
and demonstrate to the industry that our support is not simply limited to one game.

Something like a 'Sister Cities' event, or something along those lines?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: CapaDevans on September 27, 2012, 12:36:32 PM
...poor little trolls. Don't they know we beat them up for their lunch money on a regular basis? >.>

I moderate an internet forum and I *love* trolls. They're so predictable.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 01:28:09 PM
That's why I am trying to stay on target with this, Segev.  They have made it clear they have no intention of reviving the game (and at this point I am inclined to agree with others that have said that they can't within their own culture, because doing so would "prove" they were "wrong.")

All I want is to pressure them into releasing the IP to someone else.  After that, I am "moderately" indifferent, and I certainly do not want to see them shit-can other NCSoft West employees or torpedo ArenaNet.

That doesn't mean that I am ever going to trust them with my money or heart again.
Yeah, Asian cultures (of the "oriental" variety, in particular) tend to be very big on Face - earning, saving, and avoiding loss thereof. There are two ways to "win" a social battle with people in such a culture. Well, three, but we aren't their social superiors, so the easiest-to-enact is not within our power.

1) Shame them so badly that they lose all Face and are forced to go away, abandoning whatever social ground you want to control to you or those who prefer.

2) Threaten them with a minor but notable loss of Face that can be saved and even turn into a gain of Face if they act the way you wish.

1) is out of our power because we aren't there to shame them where it matters, and even if we force NCSoft to lose that much Face, there's nothing that will keep them from spiting us by keeping the IP just in a "take you down with me" sort of move.

2) must therefore be our goal. Which is why, along with all else, we need to keep the "sell the IP" option open as something that they can spin as being their magnanimous, brilliant business move that they thought of. Make being our ally in the end a viable option, through which they can save Face.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: dwturducken on September 27, 2012, 03:20:25 PM
I think a "Sister Cities" style rally wouldbe a good thing, but may be a little more interesting, logistically. I have about half a dozen other games installed from trying out the games as they went free, but I reasonably confident I'm in the minority, there.

But would we be welcome? I don't mean getting locals to join in, even briefly or jokingly. Unity was was initially mistaken for and misrepresented as an intentional disruption. Would those unsympathetic to us or unaware of us end up pissed at us for "disrupting their game?"
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 27, 2012, 03:46:28 PM
I moderate an internet forum and I *love* trolls. They're so predictable.

Bullies are predictable too in that they can always be depended upon to try and stuff you in a locker, but I wouldn't say that makes it something worthy of love.  8)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 04:01:54 PM
Out of curiosity, does anybody actually have experience with people being stuffed in lockers? I know, a touch off-topic, but I'm wondering whether this is just a meme that is associated with bullying but doesn't really happen IRL, or if it is a thing that really does happen.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 27, 2012, 04:08:17 PM
Yeah, the locker thing actually does happen, unfortunately.


Back on topic: PARAGON FOREVER! AP33! AP33! *pumps fist* >.>
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 04:12:04 PM
Condolences to those who've suffered the locker thing, then; thanks for indulging my curiosity. While I suffered my share of bullying, I was always too big for the more...physical kinds. Generally. So I was spared that.


Back on topic: What is AP33?


Also, can somebody who isn't on a work computer confirm whether or not you can actually create a new account in CoH/V at this time?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Quinch on September 27, 2012, 04:17:34 PM
AP33 is kind of a symbol. A week or so back, CoH players staged a... bit of a gathering. There were thirty-three instances of Atlas Park on Virtue before the server filled and went into queue mode, leading to rapid filling of Freedom and parts of... Guardian, I think?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 27, 2012, 04:18:53 PM
Condolences to those who've suffered the locker thing, then; thanks for indulging my curiosity. While I suffered my share of bullying, I was always too big for the more...physical kinds. Generally. So I was spared that.


Back on topic: What is AP33?


Also, can somebody who isn't on a work computer confirm whether or not you can actually create a new account in CoH/V at this time?

Atlas Park, instance 33. It's the highest numbered instance of Atlas Park we spawned with the Unity Rally. It remains open on Virtue server to this day, thanks to an enterprising and charitably spirited server admin. It has quickly become a symbol of unity and support for City of Heroes.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: StarRanger4 on September 27, 2012, 04:20:13 PM
Back on topic: What is AP33?

It is the highest numbered instance of a zone that anyone can recall.

Atlas Park 33.  WE spawned it during the Unity rally. 
Since then, even during server maintenance, someone on our side inside the development team has 'respawned' it after the servers came back online.

It represents, to many of us what we CAN do. 
It has become the place where those who hold vigil come to shine the light of hope against the darkness.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 04:27:31 PM
Neat!

I actually didn't know that servers could have multiple instances of a public zone; I suppose it's more for client sanity than anything else, since the servers would have to maintain all the data and activity in all instances regardless.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: StarRanger4 on September 27, 2012, 04:31:11 PM
Neat!

I actually didn't know that servers could have multiple instances of a public zone; I suppose it's more for client sanity than anything else, since the servers would have to maintain all the data and activity in all instances regardless.

yes.  Normally a standard city zone can only handle somewhere between 75-100 Server-Client connections.  Once that number is passed the zone is 'full' and a new instance of the zone is spawned.

and its not just for client connections, remember the server has to keep track of where everyone is and what they are doing in order to tell the clients what they 'see'.  Its as much to keep the server able to keep up with the data load as the client
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 27, 2012, 04:41:10 PM
Out of curiosity, does anybody actually have experience with people being stuffed in lockers? I know, a touch off-topic, but I'm wondering whether this is just a meme that is associated with bullying but doesn't really happen IRL, or if it is a thing that really does happen.

I was never stuffed into a locker, which is funny because I would have actually fit.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 27, 2012, 04:46:30 PM
Neat!

I actually didn't know that servers could have multiple instances of a public zone; I suppose it's more for client sanity than anything else, since the servers would have to maintain all the data and activity in all instances regardless.

Well... yeah... if it was all one zone, many video cards would've had a meltdown.

I tried running Leandro's "5000" demo-recording and CoH crashed out on the load screen after about 10 minutes of caching.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Codewalker on September 27, 2012, 04:48:40 PM
Quote from: StarRanger4 link=topic=5275.msg54689#msg54689
and its not just for client connections, remember the server has to keep track of where everyone is and what they are doing in order to tell the clients what they 'see'.  Its as much to keep the server able to keep up with the data load as the client

And it's a method of distributing the load as well. Different instances of a zone could easily be running on different physical servers.

That's why the devs tend to call things like Virtue and Freedom "shards" rather than "servers". The mapping between shards and server hardware isn't even close to 1:1. With new servers it wouldn't surprise me if more than one low-pop shard could be running off a single server, while Virtue during the rally might have spread across several.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 27, 2012, 04:53:41 PM
Out of curiosity, does anybody actually have experience with people being stuffed in lockers? I know, a touch off-topic, but I'm wondering whether this is just a meme that is associated with bullying but doesn't really happen IRL, or if it is a thing that really does happen.

Not personally, but I saw it done. The one time anyone tried to stuff me into a locker, it was head-first, with the door closed.

I also have a feeling that the narrower locker was actually built to prevent "stuffing."
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 27, 2012, 05:01:06 PM
I also have a feeling that the narrower locker was actually built to prevent "stuffing."

Actually those are to put more lockers in the same space.  Just like airline seats.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TheBeatnik on September 27, 2012, 05:02:25 PM
I think a "Sister Cities" style rally wouldbe a good thing, but may be a little more interesting, logistically. I have about half a dozen other games installed from trying out the games as they went free, but I reasonably confident I'm in the minority, there.

But would we be welcome? I don't mean getting locals to join in, even briefly or jokingly. Unity was was initially mistaken for and misrepresented as an intentional disruption. Would those unsympathetic to us or unaware of us end up pissed at us for "disrupting their game?"


That's why working WITHIN their community, via forums, etc, would be of the utmost importance. The goal would be to get the native population of the game involved to the extent that it would be their event as well as our own. That CoH shares players with a number of games would be a good point to start from- I'm playing TSW these days, for instance, and know of plenty of others who've enjoyed both games.

If we were simply to come in as outsiders, not only would our message likely be misperceived, but we'd be generating negative publicity as well. Instead, we'd want to build from common ground- we love our games, we love our community, and we will fight to the last for them.

When I see folks on Massively.org responding to Tim the Enchanter's video with comments like " I've never been a COH player, but man I hope you guys get across to NCSoft and at least spur talks of future hosting of the servers," it tells me that our support extends far beyond the reaches of Paragon City.

Anyway, lunch break is almost over. Thanks for listening!

The Beatnik
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Quinch on September 27, 2012, 05:26:46 PM
Well... yeah... if it was all one zone, many video cards would've had a meltdown.

I tried running Leandro's "5000" demo-recording and CoH crashed out on the load screen after about 10 minutes of caching.

I remember a time when it did, or at least several hundred. It was during some sort of anniversary event, I think. Atlas lagged like you wouldn't believe, especially near one of the devs {Cuppa maybe?} who was handing out titles.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Ironwolf on September 27, 2012, 07:35:55 PM
250 in a Hamidon raid on Champion and the game was like a slideshow the first time we defeat Hamidon there.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: lmollea on September 27, 2012, 08:07:14 PM
Sorry I really didn't mean to cause unrest. I did read (honestly quickly and with some interruptions) all the 9 pages of previous posts and maybe I missed something (as I said, I'm not english, so please be kind, there is even someone on the other side of the atlantic ocean that would like to se CoH not closing down).

I understand that someone unloading a whole two screen of text as his first post is not the best way of saying hi, but please, I didn't mean to troll. I was quite saddened by being considered a "troll", but I was honestly trying to contribute with all the thoughts (and rants) I gathered in the latest three weeks. As I said I'm not a CoH subscriber, and I couldn't go on official forums and spoke my thoughts, but I wanted to contribute at least to focus the possible actions on realistic chances of success and on feasible alternatives. Last thing I'd like to happen is volunteers around the world be sued by NCSoft for patent infringements or IP violations or whatever else they may come up.

Again, sorry for the mess.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 27, 2012, 08:11:07 PM
Sorry I really didn't mean to cause unrest. I did read (honestly quickly and with some interruptions) all the 9 pages of previous posts and maybe I missed something (as I said, I'm not english, so please be kind, there is even someone on the other side of the atlantic ocean that would like to se CoH not closing down).

I understand that someone unloading a whole two screen of text as his first post is not the best way of saying hi, but please, I didn't mean to troll. I was quite saddened by being considered a "troll", but I was honestly trying to contribute with all the thoughts (and rants) I gathered in the latest three weeks. As I said I'm not a CoH subscriber, and I couldn't go on official forums and spoke my thoughts, but I wanted to contribute at least to focus the possible actions on realistic chances of success and on feasible alternatives. Last thing I'd like to happen is volunteers around the world be sued by NCSoft for patent infringements or IP violations or whatever else they may come up.

Again, sorry for the mess.

I think you were fine, just a little bit of language barrier. No huge deal. :) Welcome to the party, Imollea. You're among friends, here.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Codewalker on September 27, 2012, 08:19:42 PM
I understand that someone unloading a whole two screen of text as his first post is not the best way of saying hi, but please, I didn't mean to troll. I was quite saddened by being considered a "troll", but I was honestly trying to contribute with all the thoughts (and rants) I gathered in the latest three weeks.

I went back and read the chain. While I can't speak for the people involved, I really don't think the part about trolls was directed at you, especially since that was broken into a separate post.

I didn't see your post as particularly negative, just some pragmatic thoughts -- some of which had already been brought up somewhere in the huge haystack of recent traffic (good luck finding them), and some which hadn't.

There were some other posts around the same time in various threads that I believe were being discussed. It was just bad timing that it happened to be brought up right after the replies to yours.

Also, welcome to the forums!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: LtlBtyRam on September 27, 2012, 08:58:14 PM
I went back and read the chain. While I can't speak for the people involved, I really don't think the part about trolls was directed at you, especially since that was broken into a separate post.

I didn't see your post as particularly negative, just some pragmatic thoughts -- some of which had already been brought up somewhere in the huge haystack of recent traffic (good luck finding them), and some which hadn't.

There were some other posts around the same time in various threads that I believe were being discussed. It was just bad timing that it happened to be brought up right after the replies to yours.

Also, welcome to the forums!

+1 to CodeWalker's post
And I too will welcome you to the forums  ;D
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Vulpy on September 27, 2012, 10:19:37 PM
Also, welcome to the forums!

Indeed. And thank you for your feedback. :)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 10:58:04 PM
Also, can somebody who isn't on a work computer confirm whether or not you can actually create a new account in CoH/V at this time?

You cannot create a new account in CoH/V, according to the latest official notice from NCSoft.  I haven't actually tried to, but it would not surprise me that they turned that function off.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 11:01:12 PM
Drat. There goes my thought on trying to get a "Media Day" running. I won't embarrass myself by starting a thread to organize it, then!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: WanderingAries on September 27, 2012, 11:19:26 PM
Now now... we're heroes...

And geeks...

We troll the trolls in such a way they don't realize they're being trolled until their argument has been reduced into itty bitty microbes of dust.
why did I suddenly get a "Men in Tights, Toll Bridge" scene flash?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: WanderingAries on September 27, 2012, 11:23:19 PM
That's why I am trying to stay on target with this, Segev.  They have made it clear they have no intention of reviving the game (and at this point I am inclined to agree with others that have said that they can't within their own culture, because doing so would "prove" they were "wrong.")

All I want is to pressure them into releasing the IP to someone else.  After that, I am "moderately" indifferent, and I certainly do not want to see them shit-can other NCSoft West employees or torpedo ArenaNet.

That doesn't mean that I am ever going to trust them with my money or heart again.
That's why a complete reversal was never going to happen (amongst other things). We're (western vs eastern) two totally different cultures and it's easy to forget that. Remember stories of people you know who have travelled? How in some places it's an insult to finish the whole plate of food (when you're the guest) while others expect you to belch as a sign of appreciation...
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Imperial1 on September 28, 2012, 12:03:36 AM
After Reading the FAQ posted it looks like NCsoft isn't being quiet, they're being subtle.

Igrnoing the negitive message posted there how are the plans comming along?
anything?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: CainZarco on September 28, 2012, 12:19:46 AM
Since there's not really a dedicated "Hello Titan!" thread, and since I wanted to comment on a couple things, I'll go ahead and say my hellos here. :3
So yes, hello. \o

In the form of a lot of earlier posts in this thread, I'll offer up anything I can be helpful with, be it simple photo manipulations and editing, or my limited writing skills. I'd offer more if I could, but that's about all I have at the moment. That and of course my support for this endeavor.

Now I haven't gone through every single thread on the forum, as that'd take me a while since I'm not the fastest reader in the world, and I get distracted/pulled away a lot, but I have read this thread and a couple others in their entirety, such as the Wildstar conversation and A Rescue Mission, which I very much like the idea of. I've been thinking on this whole situation a lot, and it still doesn't make a bunch of sense to me in the manner it's being handled... Games come and go, sure, but I still don't understand the abruptness of this whole thing. Anyway, that's off topic. ON topic though, I just want to say a couple things.
First off, I wanted to say that I probably wouldn't be as enthusiastic to jump on board with this project if it weren't for the amazing community I've been introduced to over the last week. You guys are absolutely amazing, and if you HAVEN'T already, give yourselves a round of applause and a pat on the back. #SaveCOH has gotten around the internet EVERYWHERE it seems now. And you're continuing to spread the word about it. You've gotten casual players and non-players alike to join the cause, brought awareness to the mass media, and have even brought about discussion about how an online community is exploding out into a massive network through social media (http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-840174). I probably phrased that last part incorrectly, but the link'll explain if you haven't seen the article. Anyway, I've seen groups popping up on Steam, it's all over Raptr, I've even heard about spreading the word into other game forums such as the Blizzard ones, which apparently we've basically been invited to do from what I remember seeing.
The biggest thing that I can think of though that really got me personally on board was the Dinner's On Us Call to Action. That just pulled the words out of my mouth and left me staring at the screen and articles I found. Again, pat on the backs if you haven't... 3 hours to raise OVER 1,000 United States Dollars. And in increments of $5 - $50 no less. I'm not sure that's actually been mentioned, but Tony actually DID set the max donation to $50. That blew me away, and watching Twitter last night, the Devs seemed to have enjoyed it greatly. I'm assuming that little extra over 1k went to buying that cake. xD Awesome touch.

Now... With the compliments and whatnot out of the way... My thoughts on things. Which will be much briefer. >_>

Anyway... I'll be watching for the next CtA. I probably won't be able to join a lot of the trial runs purely because I don't have a high level character, but I'll try and be at any rallies that I hear about. :3
Thank you all for the amazing progress that you HAVE made so far, even if it isn't visibly affecting NCSoft that we know of. It really makes me smile when I say We are Heroes. This is what we do.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 28, 2012, 12:53:39 AM
You cannot create a new account in CoH/V, according to the latest official notice from NCSoft.  I haven't actually tried to, but it would not surprise me that they turned that function off.

I'd love to find out if that was just a coincidental step in shutting the game down, or a tactical maneuver...

I can't imagine how many new people would be loading it up right now to see what the fuss is about. :roll:
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Knightward on September 28, 2012, 01:20:01 AM
I'd love to find out if that was just a coincidental step in shutting the game down, or an tactical maneuver...

I can't imagine how many new people would be loading it up right now to see what the fuss is about. :roll:
I know I was about to drag a few people in for just that reason.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Warthrall on September 28, 2012, 01:59:04 AM
I Support Save City of Heroes/City of Villeins Stop This nonce right now we all love this game so please stop taring it down
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: NecrotechMaster on September 28, 2012, 03:19:01 AM
IIRC you cannot create a new account just from the website, but you can create a new account if you have a serial code from a boxed version of the game

at least that is what i have heard once the announcement came
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 28, 2012, 03:23:00 AM
IIRC you cannot create a new account just from the website, but you can create a new account if you have a serial code from a boxed version of the game

at least that is what i have heard once the announcement came

Tried that.  "Code not valid."
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Absolute on September 28, 2012, 03:42:01 AM
A lot of PvP IO farmers had free accounts that only had 1-2 characters on it. Accounts they never use. If you wanted, you could start getting those accounts for people who want to try the game.

I have my 2 paid accounts, but I also had 2 other free accounts with barely anything on them. I wouldn't mind giving those up. PvP IO farming lost a lot of it's weight with converters.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: epawtows on September 28, 2012, 03:46:45 AM
I Support Save City of Heroes/City of Villeins Stop This nonce right now we all love this game so please stop taring it down

Um... if this is a serious post, and not a troll;

The people here are NOT the people who are shutting down City of Heroes.  We *play* it.   Just like you do.  And we are trying to stop the game from going away.






Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 28, 2012, 03:48:04 AM
A lot of PvP IO farmers had free accounts that only had 1-2 characters on it. Accounts they never use. If you wanted, you could start getting those accounts for people who want to try the game.

I have my 2 paid accounts, but I also had 2 other free accounts with barely anything on them. I wouldn't mind giving those up. PvP IO farming lost a lot of it's weight with converters.
Hm. That is an idea. It takes one more layer of organization, but...

I'll consider how to organize this and try putting up a thread tomorrow to gauge interest. Remember, I have not had an active account in years, personally, so I can only organize from an out-of-game logistics standpoint.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Electric-Knight on September 28, 2012, 05:01:10 AM
Tried that.  "Code not valid."
Yeah, those worked up until the 18th, I believe (when they gave their after-announcement announcement). Seems like they flipped the rest of the switches that day to fully prevent any such account changes.

Shame, because a lot of people were waiting on mailed copies to return to VIP.
I'm glad I'm not one of them, but it sucks none the less.

*raises a glass to when new accounts can be created and enjoyed for some time, away from the shadow of NCSoft*
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: NecrotechMaster on September 28, 2012, 06:49:03 AM
Tried that.  "Code not valid."

might have changed then, or i am mis-remembering it as using a serial code to get VIP access

in either case it sounds like its not possible to create new accounts now
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 28, 2012, 07:11:27 AM
Pretty sure the FAQ said you can't even use a box serial code now to get a pre-existing Premium account back up to VIP.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: StarRanger4 on September 28, 2012, 03:32:13 PM
Pretty sure the FAQ said you can't even use a box serial code now to get a pre-existing Premium account back up to VIP.

Thats' correct Tim. says so right in the sunset faq:

Can I create a free account and play until the end of City of Heroes?

Unfortunately new account creation has been disabled.

Am I able to upgrade my account to VIP untilt he end of City of Heroes?

Upgrading to a VIP account has been disabled


How do I get a refund for an unused City of Heroes Game Card or retail code?

All retailers have been instructed to remove these items from their shelves. If you did purchase a game card or retail code and were not able to use it, please contact the retailer to for a refund.

If they are unable to assist you, customer support may be able to help. Refunds for game cards or retail codes can only be processed if you have not already applied the cod to your account. Please provide the following information when you contact support.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Vulpy on September 28, 2012, 04:29:17 PM
Refunds for game cards or retail codes can only be processed if you have not already applied the cod to your account.

Applied the cod? Does it actually say that?

...What if you don't even like fish?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: dwturducken on September 28, 2012, 04:42:44 PM
OK, that's the title for my next MA project...

"Apply the Cod!"
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: No Remorse on September 28, 2012, 05:10:22 PM
Has anyone tried to contact them through an attorney to request using any of the content for plan Z? There's a lot of "put the cart before the horse" on this forum.

For instance trying to "force" NCSoft to sell the IP when there isn't enough money on the table to be taken seriously. I told Tony this and am going to say it here, them closing Paragon and CoH down can be used as a tax write-off (you know taxes are those thing ALL companies pay and something that no one ever even factored into their overhead). Any offer that isn't more than what they can get as a write-off will be ignored. Depending on when their fiscal year starts and ends, they can potentially write off a whole year worth of earnings ($10m according to some).

So far, I haven't even seen any form of a serious offer, and you can't expect a company like that to even pay attention to an "offer" from an individual through an email. There are channels that have to be used in these scenarios. I tried to talk about this before but I was treated as if I was a troll (I'm sure some of you we're alluding to me in the troll part of this conversation). And instead of asking what I meant or how to go about it differently, people were so convinced that they were right and I was wrong.

Again, if this effort had been put into the game from go, we wouldn't be here. We all waited too late. So, why not focus on the most probable outcome and see IF we can indeed go after plan Z. You're not going to force NCSoft to do anything. You may not even legally be able to do plan Z and may need their approval, so I would stop poking the hornet nest until a clear path has been established and you're sure you don't need anything from them.

Talk to a patent / trademark / intellectual property attorney and see what you can and can't do without consent from NCSoft. Go through the proper channels. Approach this from a business perspective, not a personal one. I'm glad you guys are trying. Don't waste your efforts, channel them in the most effective way.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 28, 2012, 05:16:28 PM
Seeing as you grossly misunderstand what "plan Z" is - it cannot require any permissions from NCSoft at all because it will not be using NCSoft IP, code, or anything else - and are assuming we're trying to "make offers" out of the blue rather than find these avenues to get a clue as to what the actual dollar amounts might be, I think your post misses the point entirely.

We're not "poking a hornet's nest." We're trying to be very civil and polite while being very visible and audible. We want them to sell the IP to somebody who wants to keep it running. We cannot know what offers are on the table nor who is making them (though we can make some educated guesses in some limited cases), so we are just doing our best to encourage NCSoft to side with us on this and sell the IP to somebody who does make a good offer.

If you do have suggested avenues, I am very open to hearing them. I would like to be, personally, more in touch with the ongoing process. So please do share. But don't accuse the forumites here of "poking a hornet's nest." They're not. They're going to exacting lengths to avoid such behavior.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Siberian Spring on September 28, 2012, 05:17:42 PM
Is horrible, or just ironic, that Plan "Z" makes me think of zombies? :)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 28, 2012, 05:19:53 PM
Rumors of a villainous plot by a necromancer villain to take over Plan Z are greatly exaggerated. >_> <_<
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: dwturducken on September 28, 2012, 05:22:25 PM
I thought this too.  I even used the word "zombie", referring to the voodoo, or Vodou, version, in suggesting a villain group, and it was immediately siezed upon as the movie kind. I'm not complaining on that point, but it does evoke that association, though, doesn't it?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: No Remorse on September 28, 2012, 06:01:28 PM
Seeing as you grossly misunderstand what "plan Z" is - it cannot require any permissions from NCSoft at all because it will not be using NCSoft IP, code, or anything else - and are assuming we're trying to "make offers" out of the blue rather than find these avenues to get a clue as to what the actual dollar amounts might be, I think your post misses the point entirely.

We're not "poking a hornet's nest." We're trying to be very civil and polite while being very visible and audible. We want them to sell the IP to somebody who wants to keep it running. We cannot know what offers are on the table nor who is making them (though we can make some educated guesses in some limited cases), so we are just doing our best to encourage NCSoft to side with us on this and sell the IP to somebody who does make a good offer.

If you do have suggested avenues, I am very open to hearing them. I would like to be, personally, more in touch with the ongoing process. So please do share. But don't accuse the forumites here of "poking a hornet's nest." They're not. They're going to exacting lengths to avoid such behavior.

Funny, I thought "Plan Z" was to reverse engineer the game? I've seen posts where basically using as much of the game as they could figure out was discussed. That could very well be copyright or trademark infringement depending on what is used and how. I'm not an expert on this, are you? I have a copyright / tm / ip attorney as a student here at my school and was going to see what he could say about it, but since you're so deadset that you know best, I'll just let it go.

As far as poking a hornets nest, the talk here hasn't been the most civil at all times towards NCSoft. There's been a lot of speculation, name calling, and talk of forcing them to do this or that and hurting their reputation. Not good talk if you actually want them to work with you in any sense. I know when people insult me, I'm a lot less likely to deal with them (look at the response you got in the above paragraph).

By all means keep going on the defensive and trying to tell me how much I don't know. Do this with everyone that doesn't agree wih the methods being used, and watch your resources dwindle.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 28, 2012, 06:08:16 PM
Funny, I thought "Plan Z" was to reverse engineer the game? I've seen posts where basically using as much of the game as they could figure out was discussed. That could very well be copyright or trademark infringement depending on what is used and how. I'm not an expert on this, are you? I have a copyright / tm / ip attorney as a student here at my school and was going to see what he could say about it, but since you're so deadset that you know best, I'll just let it go.

As far as poking a hornets nest, the talk here hasn't been the most civil at all times towards NCSoft. There's been a lot of speculation, name calling, and talk of forcing them to do this or that and hurting their reputation. Not good talk if you actually want them to work with you in any sense. I know when people insult me, I'm a lot less likely to deal with them (look at the response you got in the above paragraph).

By all means keep going on the defensive and trying to tell me how much I don't know. Do this with everyone that doesn't agree wih the methods being used, and watch your resources dwindle.

There is - or was - an effort to reverse engineer parts of the game. I don't know what's become of it, nor do I know where the IP limits are. From what I recall, reverse engineering the SERVER shouldn't be hard, but reverse engineering the game itself would be extremely difficult, as well as much more iffy legally. For what content exists on our hard drives (i.e. the CoH client), forcing us to erase that will be difficult, although I think technically NCS is supposed to be able to.

The objective of Plan Z is to develop a completely new game that is in the spirit of CoH, but is our own, community made, community driven, game. Plan Z will have its own IP that will belong to Titan Network, and nobody else. Doing this will require money, but it's a different kind of fundraising effort than trying to buy the CoH IP.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: No Remorse on September 28, 2012, 06:13:38 PM
There is - or was - an effort to reverse engineer parts of the game. I don't know what's become of it, nor do I know where the IP limits are. From what I recall, reverse engineering the SERVER shouldn't be hard, but reverse engineering the game itself would be extremely difficult, as well as much more iffy legally. For what content exists on our hard drives (i.e. the CoH client), forcing us to erase that will be difficult, although I think technically NCS is supposed to be able to.

The objective of Plan Z is to develop a completely new game that is in the spirit of CoH, but is our own, community made, community driven, game. Plan Z will have its own IP that will belong to Titan Network, and nobody else. Doing this will require money, but it's a different kind of fundraising effort than trying to buy the CoH IP.

This makes more sense. It would still be a good idea to see how close it can be made without having NCSoft come back legally and say it was based on the likeness of their game, which could still be an issue potentially. There's a line that really should be defined by an expert. Have discussions begun for an official fund and what expectations and assurances there will be?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 28, 2012, 06:26:01 PM
Okay, here's the scoop.

Regarding reverse engineering:  That's legal.  Plenty of case law supports that, and we are actively doing this right now.  In fact, we've been doing it for quite a while on the down-low in order to improve the quality of our third-party tools.  We're hoping that things don't get to a point where this is the only option left.  If we do, then we'll probably talk to a lawyer before we distribute any products of our efforts to make sure that we have the legal ammo to fight any C&Ds that NCsoft might fire off our way, though really, I kinda doubt they will.  If we do release a server, it will almost certainly be without any City of Heroes IP included, as we wouldn't have the rights to do so.  We've been internally discussing the option of releasing "content packs" that would replace all of the existing missions, contacts, etc.  We've also been busily completing all incomplete content within the Paragon Wiki in case by some weird confluence of circumstance we are able to acquire the IP but not the code base so that we can implement the existing content if possible.  The exact implementation details aren't set in stone though, so all of that is subject to change.

The main hurdle of reverse engineering is the client.  If we go the reverse engineering route, we also almost certainly won't have the rights to distribute it, either.  That means that you're on your own to get a copy of it, and doing so will be considered infringement around the same equivalent of downloading an old copy of some other game that's out of production.  I doubt that NCsoft would pursue it, but it would make things harder in that we can't just put a link out there and tell people, "Run this to play."

I'm still hoping that all of this is moot.  If someone else acquires the property, there won't be any need to distribute the server.  Well, I take that back, sort of--I won't say no need, but we will choose not to distribute it because of the financial harm it could do to whomever purchased the property.

Regarding writing a new game:  We neither need nor will seek NCsoft's permission to do this.  While we might refer to it internally as a "spiritual successor to City of Heroes," we certainly won't be branding it as such.  If we go this route, we will definitely need a lawyer to protect ourselves, but not to actually develop the game.  That would come a lot later, once we get closer to release.

But having said all that...

I cannot emphasize this strongly enough.  These options are down the road.  We will not be releasing anything unless the official servers are turned off and we're convinced that there's no chance of them coming back on.  If the game is acquired by someone else who runs it, we won't be doing either of these.  It's a long time until November 30, a lot can happen before then, and I feel like working out the nitty gritty details of these options right now is jumping the gun.  As severance agreements run out, I strongly suspect that we'll have a much better idea of where things stand.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 28, 2012, 06:35:51 PM
How long do severance agreements typically last? I would suspect that they'd go at least until Nov. 30, if only to keep the lid on extra news leaking before NCSoft feels their hands are metaphorically washed of it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SithRose on September 28, 2012, 07:13:24 PM
This makes more sense. It would still be a good idea to see how close it can be made without having NCSoft come back legally and say it was based on the likeness of their game, which could still be an issue potentially. There's a line that really should be defined by an expert. Have discussions begun for an official fund and what expectations and assurances there will be?

In addition to what Tony said, might I suggest that you actually read the City Sunset forums *before* you start commenting on Plan Z, please? Thus far, every single point which you have brought up regarding Plan Z has already been considered and addressed, tabled, or is still in discussion there. :)

About the working name...It has nothing to do with zombies. (Although I guarantee that there will be some in the game if it happens.) It is the last ditch, ALL other options have failed, everything else has gone to hell plan. Hence, Z. As in, last. We could have called it the Omega Plan, but I didn't want people to start thinking about how to make the Omega 13 work properly. ;)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: eabrace on September 28, 2012, 07:46:42 PM
How long do severance agreements typically last? I would suspect that they'd go at least until Nov. 30, if only to keep the lid on extra news leaking before NCSoft feels their hands are metaphorically washed of it.
Depends on the company.  The standard severance package where I'm at is one week of pay per full year of service plus accrued vacation, but no matter how long I was gone, I wouldn't be able to leak anything considered company proprietary information without subjecting myself to a lawsuit.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 28, 2012, 07:54:25 PM
But news on how and why CoH was closed, as well as good and bad things in the direction of getting the IP sold off, would not fall into this "proprietary information" category, would it?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: eabrace on September 28, 2012, 08:03:49 PM
Yeah, basically, "proprietary" can be considered essentially any information related to how the company conducts business.  Usually, that's related to manufacturing processes, code development processes, etc, but depending on the company could easily be expanded to include the hows and whys of laying people off and shutting down support for a product.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 28, 2012, 08:06:29 PM
In that case, what might one reasonably expect the end of severance packages to allow MORE talk of?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: eabrace on September 28, 2012, 08:09:12 PM
In that case, what might one reasonably expect the end of severance packages to allow MORE talk of?
That'll be hard to say since I'm sure the NDA that goes along with the severance includes a "thou shalt not speak of the specifics of thine NDA" clause.  We'll just have to wait and see what we find out and assume that anything else falls under the gag order.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Imperial1 on September 28, 2012, 08:33:38 PM
I was just in game and i noticed somthing strange. . . a new costume set called Cybertech
it's locked (no supprise's there) and signals the user to go and buy it in the store. . . . except there is not mention of where these new peaces came from in the store, no really if you try and buy them the (well the one peace i pulled up) they come up with an error, can anyone else confirm this and maybe come up with whats going on with these new items?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Codewalker on September 28, 2012, 08:43:21 PM
I was just in game and i noticed somthing strange. . . a new costume set called Cybertech

That's the Cyberpunk set that was mentioned or maybe previewed at the last summit, I forget. It was renamed to Cybertech and was scheduled to go live on Sep. 18. That date may have changed if not for the shutdown, we don't know for sure.

Either way, there's nobody left to add it to the store, so you can't actually get it.  :-\
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: No Remorse on September 28, 2012, 09:26:32 PM
In addition to what Tony said, might I suggest that you actually read the City Sunset forums *before* you start commenting on Plan Z, please? Thus far, every single point which you have brought up regarding Plan Z has already been considered and addressed, tabled, or is still in discussion there. :)

With the sheer amount of uninformed posts on this forum, you think *I* should be the one to read something before I post huh? Interesting. You have people trying to make causes to involve politicians, people trying to find ways to sue the company that owns the rights on one hand and trying to "force" them to give away those rights on the other, and people plain making a spectacle of themselves thinking they're doing good for what essentially boils down to a business proposition. Yeah, I should go read *before* I post anything.

True, NCSoft may not pursue any legal action if there is any reverse engineering or emulation. It depends on how they view us at that point, and how much we agitate them in the meantime. If push comes to shove, they're going to have much bigger muscles to put into a shoving match, and there are people trying to start the shoving now, on this very forum, in a very public way. Even if they don't have a strong enough legal recourse to win a battle that doesn't mean they can't bury anyone associated with it in legal issues. Who here can bankroll a defense for this kind of lawsuit that could potentially last years? How much of the funding for the plan would get eaten up by a legal challenge, and what would be left to even finish any development?

All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 28, 2012, 09:43:16 PM
The problem, Dear No Remorse, is that you have swept in and assumed that we're all and only advocating the political actions and the law suits and the "forcing" of "give aways" of the IP.

If you'd actually read the forum posts surrounding those rather unfortunate posts you mention, you'd see that the majority and consistent response has been for moderation of such sentiments, just as you're now advocating. We are keeping very tight control of ourselves and cautioning any radical, baseless screeds to be more patient, to take a firm but reasonable tone, and not har off into wishful thinking vengeance territory.

The negative response to your own posts has been due to your almost libelous presumption that the majority of effort on this board has been towards foolhardy and doomed negative efforts when the opposite has been the case. It is not that you are wrong in your sentiment that we should be positive, should approach this like adults, and should be working towards persuasion rather than coercion, but that you're wrong in declaiming the entire board for holding the coercive and foolhardy positions when we, in fact, do not.

A man who entered a meeting of Planned Parenthood leadership and told them all to stop infringing on the reproductive rights of women by trying to ban contraception would be met with equal incredulity and scorn, not because they believe that women should be banned from contraceptives, but because he's making false accusations.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: SithRose on September 28, 2012, 09:46:35 PM
I'm generally encouraging everyone to read at *least* the "Where we are" thread before they start discussing Plan Z. :) I've found that it's always better to approach a subject from the perspective of knowing what's already been discussed and what hasn't. It's much easier to make productive contributions that way. Your post simply stood out as an example of points which have already been discussed - I assure you, I've made the same suggestion to several other folks working on Plan Z. Please don't take it personally, or as if I'm trying to offend you. You're certainly correct that there have been bad suggestions on the forums. I think that's fairly true of any open forum area. I believe we've quashed most of those over in the Sunset forums, and that we are all attempting to work from a respectful, polite standpoint with the ultimate goal being to save City of Heroes *legally*.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 28, 2012, 09:49:30 PM
With the sheer amount of uninformed posts on this forum, you think *I* should be the one to read something before I post huh? Interesting. You have people trying to make causes to involve politicians, people trying to find ways to sue the company that owns the rights on one hand and trying to "force" them to give away those rights on the other, and people plain making a spectacle of themselves thinking they're doing good for what essentially boils down to a business proposition. Yeah, I should go read *before* I post anything.

True, NCSoft may not pursue any legal action if there is any reverse engineering or emulation. It depends on how they view us at that point, and how much we agitate them in the meantime. If push comes to shove, they're going to have much bigger muscles to put into a shoving match, and there are people trying to start the shoving now, on this very forum, in a very public way. Even if they don't have a strong enough legal recourse to win a battle that doesn't mean they can't bury anyone associated with it in legal issues. Who here can bankroll a defense for this kind of lawsuit that could potentially last years? How much of the funding for the plan would get eaten up by a legal challenge, and what would be left to even finish any development?

All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.

/me plants a sign that simply says: "Do Not Feed The Troll"
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 28, 2012, 10:32:09 PM
All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.

Maybe so, but I've said before that we're walking on the edge of a razor here.  The things I've been asking for have been balancing dozens of factors, including risks of backlash in our actions.  I can't promise that we won't cross that line, but so far, I think we've stayed reasonable far from it.  I don't agree with the "divided attention" problem yet.  Our reverse engineers are reverse engineering, if we develop a new game it will take years and another month or two of trying other paths won't hurt, and people who need to be talking to NCsoft are talking to NCsoft.  I think we have everything pretty well in hand doing everything we can.  That still doesn't promise success, but I think we've maximized our chances pretty well so far.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: emu265 on September 28, 2012, 11:05:04 PM
With the sheer amount of uninformed posts on this forum, you think *I* should be the one to read something before I post huh? Interesting. You have people trying to make causes to involve politicians, people trying to find ways to sue the company that owns the rights on one hand and trying to "force" them to give away those rights on the other, and people plain making a spectacle of themselves thinking they're doing good for what essentially boils down to a business proposition. Yeah, I should go read *before* I post anything.

True, NCSoft may not pursue any legal action if there is any reverse engineering or emulation. It depends on how they view us at that point, and how much we agitate them in the meantime. If push comes to shove, they're going to have much bigger muscles to put into a shoving match, and there are people trying to start the shoving now, on this very forum, in a very public way. Even if they don't have a strong enough legal recourse to win a battle that doesn't mean they can't bury anyone associated with it in legal issues. Who here can bankroll a defense for this kind of lawsuit that could potentially last years? How much of the funding for the plan would get eaten up by a legal challenge, and what would be left to even finish any development?

All I'm saying here is discretion is the key. Not all PR is good PR, and I've seen more than a few suggestions on here to start things that I believe would be detrimental in the long run. Posi isn't posting on the CoH forum anymore, and there are only a few red names posting anymore. With everything else happening I'm taking this as the game is still heading for a sunset. While I agree that a lot can happen in 60ish days, I also think that people are dividing their attention too much and are risking alienating the company we want to play ball in the first place by going to extremes in an attempt to get their attention.

You're obviously pretty smart.  I'll leave the arguments to other people, namely Tony.  However, no one's going to take anything you say seriously or constructively when you start insulting them.  I can understand why you're getting defensive, and I also understand that there are things people don't like to hear.  Did you really think something constructive would come out of your pointed and malicious arguments?  Or are you really just a troll?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: EClark on September 28, 2012, 11:13:00 PM
You're obviously pretty smart.  I'll leave the arguments to other people, namely Tony.  However, no one's going to take anything you say seriously or constructively when you start insulting them.  I can understand why you're getting defensive, and I also understand that there are things people don't like to hear.  Did you really think something constructive would come out of your pointed and malicious arguments?  Or are you really just a troll?

I prefer the term kaisha no inu myself, but the term 'troll' may be more appropriate in this instance.

(damn, there I go showing off again)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: caine6900 on September 28, 2012, 11:33:54 PM
I hope TonyV can be there tommorow for Victory's Unity rally/march from AP to PI
Hello Gang! remember!
There is a unity rally march/walk on Victory server this coming Saturday evening at 7 P.M. EST and lasting until we decide its over. we will be starting in Atlas park and marching through Skyway then to Talos island and take the Ferry to PI and end up in Portals courtyard and take lots of pictures along the way. As for a recording of that. I do not know. That would possibly take over an hours of recording and that's a lot of disc space to take up So the pics will work well. if you have any questions contact me here or while in game its Madame Shayla or Lady Shayla
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: ukaserex on September 28, 2012, 11:38:01 PM
Can we just limit our posts to being positive? If someone reads something that's looks as though it's out of line, maybe send them a PM. No need to distract from the status reports.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 28, 2012, 11:44:45 PM
Can we just limit our posts to being positive? If someone reads something that's looks as though it's out of line, maybe send them a PM. No need to distract from the status reports.

Agreed.  I see the disagreement here, but I don't think our goals are at odds with each other.  Everyone please take a chill pill and stop with the snarkiness and name-calling.

Edit:  Everyone please take another chill pill.  Medically speaking, you can actually take up to six per day before you run any risk of permanent chillbite.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Joshex on September 29, 2012, 12:55:41 AM
Funny, I thought "Plan Z" was to reverse engineer the game? I've seen posts where basically using as much of the game as they could figure out was discussed. That could very well be copyright or trademark infringement depending on what is used and how. I'm not an expert on this, are you? I have a copyright / tm / ip attorney as a student here at my school and was going to see what he could say about it, but since you're so deadset that you know best, I'll just let it go.

As far as poking a hornets nest, the talk here hasn't been the most civil at all times towards NCSoft. There's been a lot of speculation, name calling, and talk of forcing them to do this or that and hurting their reputation. Not good talk if you actually want them to work with you in any sense. I know when people insult me, I'm a lot less likely to deal with them (look at the response you got in the above paragraph).

By all means keep going on the defensive and trying to tell me how much I don't know. Do this with everyone that doesn't agree wih the methods being used, and watch your resources dwindle.

Oh the dreaded weapon that NCSoft fears in the backs of their minds, they don't know if we know that we could legally do it, they are worried about shame because in their culture once a decision is made it's shameful to change your mind.

What is their worry? that we'll remake the game with massive graphical updates as well as other things and it will become more popular than ever and might even make it to their shores, thus shaming them for dropping it.

Whats the weapon? NFPO (Not For Profit Organization), .ORG, Freeware, donations welcomed they help keep the game alive!

basically you can't legally sue anyone for stealing your concept if they create it themselves and aren't charging any money for it. freeware is the legal way to pawn NCSoft in this case if they should make the error of canning CoH.

Freeware just means you don't charge for the game itself, something like the paragon market would still be legal cause you could be charging for new art/features that were entirely created by the plan Z team.

also donations are the other legal way for cash to flow in.

also you could sell the old content by saying "donate so much money to Phoenix city and you get the (enter content here) (example: statesman's cape costume part) for free!"
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 29, 2012, 01:14:31 AM
basically you can't legally sue anyone for stealing your concept if they create it themselves and aren't charging any money for it. freeware is the legal way to pawn NCSoft in this case if they should make the error of canning CoH.
...
also you could sell the old content by saying "donate so much money to Phoenix city and you get the (enter content here) (example: statesman's cape costume part) for free!"

This is not true.  Infringement is infringement; it doesn't matter if it's not for profit or for profit.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 29, 2012, 01:37:08 AM
...


I'm going to risk moderator action by bringing up something from a closed thread. However, given what I have to say, I feel not only justified, but safe.

Quote from: TonyV
No worries, it sounds like you found the post that other folks are referring to.  I'm going to lock the thread because I don't want this rumor getting legs.  Some former Paragon staffers got hired by Cryptic.  That's not surprising, since I know that some Paragon Studios people have kept in touch with their Cryptic colleagues over the years.  For what it's worth though, I have a pretty good idea of how many were hired on, and it is an extremely underwhelming number--definitely not panic-worthy.  To those that did get hired on by Cryptic, I wish them nothing but the best of luck (and no, I'm not being facetious); a lot of really cool and talented people work there.  And hey!  Food on the table!

Hear hear!

I have to say that I'm more loyal to the devs who gave us the wonderful game that is CoH than I am to CoH itself. Why? Because the devs are real people with real lives, and CoH is, ultimately, just a game. And, because I know that these people are creative people who made great games. After all, they made CoH. There is every reason to believe that they can - and will - do it again.

So, good luck Paragon - wherever it is that you wind up! My personal hope is that it will be CoH II, but if it's not, I'm sure it will be very good nonetheless, and you have my customer loyalty. You've earned it. Sorry I couldn't have been at the dinner, but I live on the other side of the U.S.

:)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Joshex on September 29, 2012, 01:46:41 AM
This is not true.  Infringement is infringement; it doesn't matter if it's not for profit or for profit.

oh, I see sorry to bother then, I had heard of people getting away with this sort of thing before by being not for profit. but I guess if the NCSoft owned characters are used that is the main issue. Unless paragon owns the character rights? then technically NCSoft would only own the code.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Osborn on September 29, 2012, 02:02:59 AM
oh, I see sorry to bother then, I had heard of people getting away with this sort of thing before by being not for profit. but I guess if the NCSoft owned characters are used that is the main issue. Unless paragon owns the character rights? then technically NCSoft would only own the code.

Fair Use protects you/us in cases of satire, parody or other journalistic and historical uses (such as reviews). It doesn't protect you from, effectively, creating a competing product, regardless of if you make profit or not on it.

Fair Use is there to protect our free speech to make fun of or negatively review a product in a way a company would otherwise (without this law protecting us) shut down (though that hasn't stopped companies from trying to shut down negative press with copywrite lawsuits, in either case). But, on the other hand it doesn't give us any legal license to pirate the game (even if in a very round-about way).

There has been several cases where a company has turned a 'blind eye' to this sort of thing (Mother 3's translation project comes to mind, NoA's staff just sorta smiled and winked knowingly in Tomato's direction), but that's exactly what it is: turning a blind eye towards the issue.

There's a good reason to assume NCSoft will not be so... generous... with their property.

Before we jump on the 'let's protect it for historical reasons!' bandwagon, I'm pretty sure you need the proper fancy pants and fancy hats to be qualified to make that claim, which the most of us (probably) don't have.

I'm pretty sure the case is that Paragon Studios owns about nothing here. Cryptic owned the engine, but they've leased it indefinitely to NCSoft, and I'm sure they'd probably lease it similarly to a new company (though maybe not? But that wouldn't stop a CoH2 from happening, either way). NCSoft though owns the IP (the actual 'setting' and all that), or we wouldn't be trying to buy it from them.

If Paragon Studios already owned the IP, we wouldn't be facing a shutdown at all, because Paragon Studios thought the game was doing great (and in fact was rolling out updates to it right up until the bell tolled).
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 29, 2012, 02:12:52 AM
oh, I see sorry to bother then, I had heard of people getting away with this sort of thing before by being not for profit. but I guess if the NCSoft owned characters are used that is the main issue. Unless paragon owns the character rights? then technically NCSoft would only own the code.

Basically: The characters we've created are ours.  (Unless, of course, you're already infringing on someone else's property, such as creating a Spiderman clone.)  But the characters, names, stories, etc. in the game are NCsoft's.  So we can't legally create a game with Statesman, Positron, Synapse, Atlas Park, Kings Row, the Freakalympics, the Wheel of Destiny, etc.

However: You cannot copyright or patent the rules of a game.  So the mechanics and whatnot could be duplicated.  Some common words for power such as "Teleport" would probably be okay, though if you pick non-generic words and phrases such as, I dunno, "Sky Splitter," you might start getting into dicey territory.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Osborn on September 29, 2012, 02:20:50 AM
However: You cannot copyright or patent the rules of a game.  So the mechanics and whatnot could be duplicated.  Some common words for power such as "Teleport" would probably be okay, though if you pick non-generic words and phrases such as, I dunno, "Sky Splitter," you might start getting into dicey territory.

That's not entirely true all the time too, because the law loves being inconsistent so sometimes you can patent things like "targeting arrows that point in a direction (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6200138.PN.&OS=PN/6200138&RS=PN/6200138)" or "characters can go insane (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6935954.PN.&OS=PN/6935954&RS=PN/6935954)" and get away with it if the guy at the patent office or a lawyer is being directly controlled by Beelzebub that day or not.

Whether or not that'll hold up in a court or not is to be seen, but a lot of companies just forgo the process of litigation and just pay the patent unicorn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll)'s bridge fee.

Edit: This isn't meant to be discouraging, just that making a game requires a crazy amount of legal effort that I'm not envious of you guys for tackling.

Edit 2: That term's being censored so if the link doesn't work, sorry?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 29, 2012, 03:08:00 AM
Basically, "Plan Z" is a last resort not because it is in any way a threat to NCSoft, but because it's the hardest and most difficult-to-make-work option to keep the community together and build a new game that has stuff the players of the old one loved.


If NCSoft will part with the IP, Cryptic all but certainly would allow for Paragon or whoever got it to license the engine. If Paragon can get the IP and the rights to the code, then CoH is pretty well saved. They'll just need to reorganize and make sure all the hardware's in place (again).
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: ArianaLady on September 29, 2012, 03:55:45 AM
I have been despondent since the notice of closing down a game we have played for over 6 years and made many lifetime friends. It is so encouraging to know there is this kind of fight going on.  Keep it up!  Please!  If only Tony W (Pumbumbler/Selene) could join the fight. He was one of the oldest players and he left due to the change in management.  He would fight the good fight now with us.

So, how much does it cost to buy a game that is just being "closed down"?  I am unemployed (after being layed off from a bought-out company), but if I hit the lottery, I surely will make them an offer.  :)

Thanks so much for all your efforts.  I will also join this...
ArianaLady
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 29, 2012, 04:18:50 AM
I have been despondent since the notice of closing down a game we have played for over 6 years and made many lifetime friends. It is so encouraging to know there is this kind of fight going on.  Keep it up!  Please!  If only Tony W (Pumbumbler/Selene) could join the fight. He was one of the oldest players and he left due to the change in management.  He would fight the good fight now with us.

So, how much does it cost to buy a game that is just being "closed down"?  I am unemployed (after being layed off from a bought-out company), but if I hit the lottery, I surely will make them an offer.  :)

Thanks so much for all your efforts.  I will also join this...
ArianaLady

Negotiations are already underway, or so we're told. The details of said negotiations are, of course, strictly confidential. Which means nobody involved can give us any kind of information about what's going on. Sadly. :(
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 29, 2012, 05:02:55 AM
Recap:

NCSoft is definitely shutting down the servers Nov 30, as of most recent announcement
NCSoft is giving refunds on remaining time paid, and in some cases, Paragon Points purchased.
NCSoft has laid Zwilliger off and removed him as Community Manager on the official boards
The Official Boards will remain up as long as the servers are.
NCSoft directs anyone who bought time cards or boxed sets after Black Friday to seek a refund from the merchant same were purchased from.
NCSoft will be running events for the next two months, ending with the Rikti Invasion.

Paragon Studios is in negotiations with NCSoft which include purchasing the IP (City of Heroes/Villains).  Brian Clayton, former studio manager for Paragon Studios is in charge of those negotiations.  They are evidently sticky.  Substantial potential investors are encouraged to contact him.  You may do so via Tony V or myself, but be aware, we're talking the price of a nice house in a good neighborhood in San Francisco here.  Brian was encouraging at the Dev Dinner a couple days ago.  I at least expect him to touch base with me late Sunday night, even if he hasn't got any news yet.

When Cryptic sold City to NCSoft, they either completely sold the game engine as well, or leased it indefinitely (I have heard conflicting reports from people who should know).  In either case, a solid reply came from Cryptic after an inquiry that (if leased) the lease goes with the IP.

As yet no other party has come forward publicly indicating they are interested in purchasing the IP from NCSoft.

Plan A is to convince NCSoft it is in their best interest to sell the IP and not sit on it.
Plan Z (court of last resort, because it WILL take at least two years and could take much longer) is to code, from scratch, a new superhero game into which we can port our old characters.

And that is your Friday night recap. 
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 29, 2012, 05:09:27 AM
As always, VV, thank you kindly.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: NecrotechMaster on September 29, 2012, 05:34:44 AM
sounds like the gears are turning still which is good news

the negotiations being sticky are prolly what has made them so slow with the progress but at least they havent been shot down yet
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Tanglefoe on September 29, 2012, 05:43:37 AM
I'm not totally discouraged yet because you gotta remember the servers are owned by NCSoft, and then there's the store, our accounts, and a ton of other stuff.  If there are negociations for a buyout, they would have to figure out how to move all sorts of things.  It could take several months, even after Nov 30th.

And I really have to think that if they weren't interested in selling, they would have said so in the beginning.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: emu265 on September 29, 2012, 05:49:55 AM
I'm not totally discouraged yet because you gotta remember the servers are owned by NCSoft, and then there's the store, our accounts, and a ton of other stuff.  If there are negociations for a buyout, they would have to figure out how to move all sorts of things.  It could take several months, even after Nov 30th.

And I really have to think that if they weren't interested in selling, they would have said so in the beginning.
Yeah, listen to this guy.  Negotiations would be incredibly complex for this kind of thing.  If they're selling the IP/code, all of their servers and data would come with it.  With that comes the other companies those are run through.  It's a mess.  So the timeframe here isn't our enemy.  They're working on it.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: zoser on September 29, 2012, 10:05:59 AM
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 29, 2012, 10:10:23 AM
Yeah, listen to this guy.  Negotiations would be incredibly complex for this kind of thing.  If they're selling the IP/code, all of their servers and data would come with it.  With that comes the other companies those are run through.  It's a mess.  So the timeframe here isn't our enemy.  They're working on it.

Well, the server software and the DB's would be a part of it. The hardware, probably not. But I don't see why that would slow the negotiations. The HOW can all get ironed out after the fact.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 29, 2012, 12:20:42 PM
It may be that the "how" includes ownership issues, depending on what the "objects" are that contain the bits that CoH needs vs. stuff universal to NCSoft's system. It is easy from the conceptual level, but legalese likely snarls up precisely what needs to be done.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 29, 2012, 03:11:02 PM
It may be that the "how" includes ownership issues, depending on what the "objects" are that contain the bits that CoH needs vs. stuff universal to NCSoft's system. It is easy from the conceptual level, but legalese likely snarls up precisely what needs to be done.

This. $deity save me from the lawyers. x.x
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 29, 2012, 03:32:39 PM
Normally I'd agree with you, DrakeGrimm, but in this case, it may not be the lawyers' fault. In any project, the actual implementation requires some nitty-gritty decisions that are easy to broad-concept understand, but which the details make very tricky. Modularity is almost always, in the final run-time, less efficient than unified systems, but those unified systems are a LOT harder to take apart and modify. This could - and I am just guessing - be the case here.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Olantern on September 29, 2012, 03:59:15 PM
It may be that the "how" includes ownership issues, depending on what the "objects" are that contain the bits that CoH needs vs. stuff universal to NCSoft's system. It is easy from the conceptual level, but legalese likely snarls up precisely what needs to be done.

It's undoubtedly legal stuff causing the hangups, but the issue Segev mentions is only one of a host of them.  Remember the analogy of property rights to a bundle of sticks and the idea of limits and conditions on sales from the Legal Considerations thread.

The parties' goals are clear.  NCSoft wants to wash its hands of the game entirely and not have the hassle and responsibility of running it any more while getting the highest possible price for the property.  Paragon wants the right to develop the game on its own terms without NCSoft's interference while paying the lowest possible cost.

Those simple goals turn hydralike when you start thinking through things that could happen in the future.  This is what contracts are about- covering contingencies.  If I had to guess, and I do, things the parties need to decide include:

- How much is this thing really worth, anyway?  I don't see Blue Book values for MMO's quoted very often.
- Once the parties agree on a value, is it calculated in dollars or won?  What if the exchange rate fluctuates violently once agreement is reached?
- How long does Paragon have to pay?  If it pays over time, does NCSoft retain a mortgage-like interest in the property?
- If "all rights" to the game are sold, can NCSoft still mention it in non-CoH advertising (e.g., "We sponsored the development of the innovative City of Heroes in 2004" in a Blade & Soul ad)?
- How long does NCSoft have to get rid of all references to and mentions of CoH in its websites and other materials (many are gone, but what about those pictures of Statesman)?
- Since the "new" Paragon hasn't formed yet, what happens if the parties agree to a sale, then it never forms?  Does the IP revert to NCSoft?  To all the potential devs as a collection of individuals?  Somewhere else?
- If someone sues Paragon and/or NCSoft about CoH, who defends the case?  If the plaintiff wins, who pays?  Does the kind of claim matter?  (This is one reason I'm so touchy about people saying they want to sue.  No one wants to buy a lawsuit.)
- What if Paragon wants to develop a new game based on the CoH property, either the game code (e.g., it's a game about zombie hunters, but it uses the CoH character progression system) or the story elements (e.g., a totally new fantasy MMO set in Oranbega at its height)?  Can it do so free and clear?  Or does it have to pay NCSoft a royalty?  Or can it not do that at all?
- How can NCSoft be sure its ex-employees aren't using proprietary information in maintaining an NCSoft-less CoH?  And if it can't, how much more should it charge to release the IP?  (This is the issue Segev raised.)
- If either party breaches the contract, what should the damages be?  In what forum should disputes be resolved (an especially sticky issue in an international negotiation like this)?

... and so on.  Every one of those terms (plus a zillion others, I'm sure) affects the price of the property and one or both parties' willingness to deal.  Of course, on top of all that, there are still the usual hassles of any negotiation, like the cultural issues others have already mentioned, too.  I don't envy the people working on this.  It looks simple to us from the outside, but there are as many potential issues as there are potential problems going forward.  That's why I'm being extremely patient and hoping both parties can get what they want.  That is the way that we will get what we want, too.

All that is out of our hands.  The best thing we can do is to continue to demonstrate that the game has a dedicated fan base that makes it both worth selling and a good buy.  Keep it up, everyone!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 29, 2012, 04:04:05 PM
As usual, Olantern pretty much nails it. Good show!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 29, 2012, 04:42:59 PM
I want to thank Olantern for once again providing his expert analysis, even if he has to guess a lot. I also want to apologize, but this sort of stuff is exactly the kind of puzzle I like to prize apart and find solutions to. I know what I'm about to engage in is mostly fun-and-gamesmanship, but I am going to give my thoughts and inexpert suggested solution to each of the issues he raises, here.

The parties' goals are clear.  NCSoft wants to wash its hands of the game entirely and not have the hassle and responsibility of running it any more while getting the highest possible price for the property.  Paragon wants the right to develop the game on its own terms without NCSoft's interference while paying the lowest possible cost.
This much is cool. Everyone involved wants the same overall end result. We are allies in this, and that is probably the most important step to finding any possibility of a mutually-agreeable situation.

I will add that an additional goal is that neither party wants future legal entanglements or arguments over this. When it's done, they truly want to be done and not have to argue over whether one side or the other is unfairly using, profiting from, or otherwise involving something to which the other has rights. (At least, I assume this is a goal all parties have; it seems reasonable if generally-unspoken.)

-How much is this thing really worth, anyway?  I don't see Blue Book values for MMO's quoted very often.
This is a hard one. I don't really have a way of making even a mildly educated guess on it, but I know it involves projected profits from the continued running of the game, costs of running it and developing more stuff for it, and potential value from being able to sell the IP to a higher bidder in the future (which is, in turn, weighted against the likelihood of such a higher bidder ever materializing).

It is worth noting, here, however, that NCSoft was, before any negotiations started, planning to simply terminate the game. This would, at Nov. 30, result in immediate and rapidly continuing devaluation of the IP, simply due to loss of audience interest. Even if NCSoft doesn't consider it of $0 value, an immediate sale of the IP is worth more than sitting on it and simply considering all costs sunk. So that is why, even without the PR nightmare they could be facing, selling it is better than just ending it and refusing to. This also gives some negotiating clout to the buyer; "We're making an offer, and even if it's not what you might want, it's better than anything other option on the table for your bottom line."
- Once the parties agree on a value, is it calculated in dollars or won?  What if the exchange rate fluctuates violently once agreement is reached?
This one is really just a matter of preference and expected strength of the currency in question. Since the dollar is the reserve currency of the world, it is probably the better choice, and just to nail the value at that dollar amount. I can certainly see counter-arguments, but this does not seem like a point that would be that sticky compared to most of these others.
- How long does Paragon have to pay?  If it pays over time, does NCSoft retain a mortgage-like interest in the property?
Given NCSoft's desire to wash their hands of this product's continued running, a one-time payment by the end of the year is probably the best bet. Honestly, if I were at the table, myself, I would be looking to sign the check by Nov. 30. A lot here depends on what Paragon Studios's financial backers are willing to do. It is here that, if I could get some inkling of the actual dollar amounts involved, I would be pressing much harder with my tenuous connections to see if I can't sell it. Because the less "you have until..." there is in the payment, the better for all involved.

If it DOES go to a payment plan, I honestly think it'd be better for Paragon to incorporate and leave a negotiated-but-less-than-controlling interest in NCSoft's hands. It becomes merely an asset on their books, and they receive a percentage of profits, but otherwise are totally uninvolved. And they can sell that asset later to somebody else if they find a buyer and still don't like the returns they're getting.
- If "all rights" to the game are sold, can NCSoft still mention it in non-CoH advertising (e.g., "We sponsored the development of the innovative City of Heroes in 2004" in a Blade & Soul ad)?
- How long does NCSoft have to get rid of all references to and mentions of CoH in its websites and other materials (many are gone, but what about those pictures of Statesman)?
My suggestion here would be a non-exclusive license, renewed yearly and with a one-month deadline upon renewal not being performed, for NCSoft to use CoH PI in its corporate representations, provided they make no false claims about current involvement and make no promises about the future of CoH IP. If NCSoft wants to wash their hands completely, they simply take the first year to clean everything out. If they don't, they retain the license and use what they feel is important to use. They can't sell the license (so if somebody else wants to say "we sponsored the development..." they need to buy NCSoft, not just the rights to make that claim), but can maintain whatever level of pride they wish for the involvement they DID have.
- Since the "new" Paragon hasn't formed yet, what happens if the parties agree to a sale, then it never forms?  Does the IP revert to NCSoft?  To all the potential devs as a collection of individuals?  Somewhere else?
Two possible solutions here:

1) A "trusted third party" that already exists is the actual recipient, and Paragon Studios is going to form under them. By terms of contract, what "forms" means can be defined, roughly speaking as a list of names in various positions and duties to ensure the third party doesn't violate that trust. This way, if Paragon never forms, the third party is in breach of contract, but the IP has a place it's been handed.

2) Actual completion of the contract is contingent upon Paragon Studios forming as an entity. No reversion; the IP never transfers in the first place. Or, more likely, they come to a general agreement, Paragon Studios forms as an entity, and THEN the contract is signed.
- If someone sues Paragon and/or NCSoft about CoH, who defends the case?  If the plaintiff wins, who pays?  Does the kind of claim matter?  (This is one reason I'm so touchy about people saying they want to sue.  No one wants to buy a lawsuit.)
Set a cut-off date of Nov. 30 (or the date of the transfer, whichever seems more reasonable). Any suit involving promises made or damages done before then is NCSoft's responsibility; any suit involving promises made or damages done thereafter is Paragon's. While this could get sticky if somebody wanted to sue NCSoft for an already-made-at-this-point promise that Paragon didn't want to honor, I think NCSoft has already made all the preparations it needs to regarding those with its preparations for closing down everything on Nov. 30.

- What if Paragon wants to develop a new game based on the CoH property, either the game code (e.g., it's a game about zombie hunters, but it uses the CoH character progression system) or the story elements (e.g., a totally new fantasy MMO set in Oranbega at its height)?  Can it do so free and clear?  Or does it have to pay NCSoft a royalty?  Or can it not do that at all?
Because the nature and spirit of this deal is to let NCSoft wash its hands of this and let Paragon continue development as its own entity, I suggest the "Paragon can do these things free and clear" option. They are buying the IP and all associated properties. NCSoft was not planning to use them anymore, anyway, so trying to piecemeal it out is a bit foolish.
- How can NCSoft be sure its ex-employees aren't using proprietary information in maintaining an NCSoft-less CoH?  And if it can't, how much more should it charge to release the IP?  (This is the issue Segev raised.)
My answers and suggestions to this one would require that I knew much more about what NCSoft PI is "in jeopardy." It is tricky, especially if NCSoft suspects Paragon would actually deliberately attempt to steal proprietary information during a transfer of "just CoH stuff" from NCSoft servers to separate Paragon-only ones.
- If either party breaches the contract, what should the damages be?  In what forum should disputes be resolved (an especially sticky issue in an international negotiation like this)?
This one is outside my experience enough that I can't specify "what damages" there should be. From what little I know, however, if it gets to breach-of-contract, it's going to go to court, and courts notoriously decide the awards for damages. WHERE it will be resolved is an interesting issue. My knee-jerk response is "where the defendant is." This protects both companies if they want to USE the IP in some way that the other tries to prevent. Given the goal is mostly for one to wash their hands while the other uses it, the potential loss of exclusivity is of lesser concern than the potential denial of ability to use.

I would go so far as to say that the agreement may be wise to specify a "no cease-and-desist" clause so that procedures under trial are not halted by court order until the trial is resolved. While there is normally good reason to allow this sort of preemptive "wait before you keep doing something you maybe shouldn't" rule, the goal of this deal, at least for one side, is minimal interruption to CoH being offered to its customers, and there's likely little to be gained by the other by a few months' to a year's halting of "bad faith use" of the IP outside of bullying that, I assume, all sides are currently working in too much good faith to want to provision for.

I don't envy the people working on this.  It looks simple to us from the outside, but there are as many potential issues as there are potential problems going forward.  That's why I'm being extremely patient and hoping both parties can get what they want.  That is the way that we will get what we want, too.
Despite my total outsider status, I actually do wish I could be participating in this. I think I would enjoy it, and I am proud enough of my problem-solving skills to think I could genuinely help. Sadly, I know that my position is just wrong to enable me to get in there. Still, I will offer and volunteer at every opportunity on that very off chance.

All that is out of our hands.  The best thing we can do is to continue to demonstrate that the game has a dedicated fan base that makes it both worth selling and a good buy.  Keep it up, everyone!
Indeed. I have been very impressed by what everyone's done so far!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 29, 2012, 04:48:55 PM
Actually, I can think of another set of possible motivations on NCSoft's part:


1. NCS may not want competition, and figure that ANY MMO is potential competition for their MMOS, and they may also figure that the Save Paragon movement is a vocal minority of the players and that the majority of them will happily play Guild Wars. This is why the "Fool me six times" sub-movement is so important.

2. NCS may also want to retain the rights so that at some undefined point in the future start working on CoH II. Their legal department may be advising them to hold onto the IP for this reason, even if the executive department may not have any intent to ever do so. NCS may not have completely made up its mind itself.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 29, 2012, 04:52:14 PM
Seeing a lot of great points, counter-points, and well thought out debates around here lately.


I'm damn proud of you. All of you. Debates like this continue to show just how committed we all are to saving our city. I have faith we'll pull through and win the day. State of the Titan, as of 11:49 am Central on 9/29?

Indestructible. Keep it up, guys.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TonyV on September 29, 2012, 05:13:21 PM
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 29, 2012, 05:16:23 PM
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.

+1 for Truth!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 29, 2012, 05:23:48 PM
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.
Oh, definitely. Like I said, I tackled them because it was something that amused me to do. Not because I thought I was brilliantly solving problems to which those directly involved had yet to find solutions. That I'd enjoy trying to solve the actual issues is also true, but that's not my job and they've no reason to heed me.

I should, nevertheless, put together a report of the situation as I know it and shop it around to see if any people-with-money I know would be interested so I can try funnelling them past VV or TonyV to Brian. More money people can't hurt.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: dwturducken on September 29, 2012, 05:41:19 PM
I'd actually like to request that any further new threads opened on the topic of "Hey, what's the status?" be linked to O's post above and then closed.  In all seriousness, if they can't find this thread or the "News?" thread, they're not doing the minimum due diligence.

Also:
- What if Paragon wants to develop a new game based on the CoH property, either the game code (e.g., it's a game about zombie hunters, but it uses the CoH character progression system) or the story elements (e.g., a totally new fantasy MMO set in Oranbega at its height)?  Can it do so free and clear?  Or does it have to pay NCSoft a royalty?  Or can it not do that at all?

I have had to stop going to the Sunset forum, because I have a research paper and NaNoWriMo coming up, and all these awesome ideas are killing my focus, so if you guys could stop having them, that'd be great.   :P
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Olantern on September 29, 2012, 05:56:43 PM
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.

Exactly.  And this can happen even when both sides really, really want the deal to happen.  The negotiation changes constantly as new issues crop up and the parties try (or fail) to resolve them.

Of course, the point of having a contract in the first place is to avoid litigation when something goes wrong and isn't spelled out clearly ... but it means putting in negotiating and lawyer time beforehand to make that litigation less likely.

***

dwturducken, you may be amused to know that I came up with the "Oranbega MMO" thing because I have a theory that that was the Super Secret Project.  This theory is based solely and entirely on my examination of the t-shirts I've seen some of the Paragon people wearing and is not suitable for public display.  Do not taunt Happy Fun Theory.  ;)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: dwturducken on September 29, 2012, 06:05:51 PM
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 29, 2012, 07:22:03 PM
I thank everyone who spelled out on this post how challenging something that seems so simple on those of us on the outside and not in this industry these things can be. One thing I drew out from Thor's Assassin's post is that it seems as of the core of the Paragon Studios staff seems focused, dedicated and they want to see CoH continue even more than we want to. They have spent a part of their lives on this project.

I also suspect there are negotiations that have to happen about CoH 2. I cant see CoH lasting long term even if all the rights to it were secured. There would have to a future beyond what we have now and hopefully our characters would transfer over into that new project. That is imperative as well IMO and needs to be figured out as well.

The one thing I agree we need to do is not go negative and look like a bunch of angry game nerds, that wont get us anywhere.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 29, 2012, 07:31:21 PM
Well said, HEATSTROKE. I, too, add my thanks to those who have shared some insight with the rest of us. In these times, any information--even speculation based on some small knowledge of industry norms--helps lift our spirits and keep us in the fight.


/me passes around Wakies for the next round!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Back Blast on September 29, 2012, 07:54:57 PM
I have to admit that I've been living in denial about the end of the game. I just can't bring myself to truly accept the idea that there won't be a CoH after November. Its just too hard a thing to accept or contemplate. :gonk: Call it a leap of faith, but I really believe that something will happen to save the game. All the efforts I see here give me hope and keep me from wanting to crawl into a pit of dispair. So keep up the efforts folks. This isn't over yet.

But, should the absolute worst come to pass, at least we can all, players and devs alike, hold our heads up and say we tried.  :)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on September 29, 2012, 08:01:22 PM

Win or lose, I think the COH community has proven just how special it is.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 29, 2012, 08:47:09 PM
Win or lose, I think the COH community has proven just how special it is.

Well, on that note, we've proven that there is a niche out there for a game that's like CoH. If CoH does go under, how many other studios out there are going to try their hand to make their own spiritual successor?
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on September 29, 2012, 08:53:34 PM
We can only hope that a number do.  ;D

'Cause yay for more people and companies trying to make outstanding products.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Joshex on September 29, 2012, 08:58:12 PM
sad to see the game will shut-down indefinitely..

on the brightside, how much are we talking to raise for the IP? 400,000 or like 1-4 million?

if it's 400,000 I think we could all hold bakesale/donations ETC. in our respective towns.

if it's 1-4 mil... we should start reviewing some rich people's information and see who we think might be the best one to co-own CoH.

For example; we could ask bill gates.

I'm not to stoked on other companies making games similar to CoH, I've seen that twice Champions and DCUO, they aren't as fair and statistically thoughtful. CoH has a good Game Frame, it's not too easy or hard and the statistics aren't wackey.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 29, 2012, 09:01:04 PM
The latest word is that negotiations between the former Paragon Studios leadership and NCSoft are underway and going about as well as could be hoped. It looks like NCSoft is not opposed, per se, but the sale is tricky and they're working on the difficult issues. If you DO know potential investors, VV and TonyV are apparently people to contact to have them hooked up with Paragon, because more money always helps, but there is definitely hope and things might just work out.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Osborn on September 29, 2012, 09:02:09 PM
I think that the point wasn't so much that those particular issues needed solving; it was that something as simple as, "We're going to sell the game to X" can quickly become a multi-thousand page contract in which each party tries to suss out every minor detail and contingency that might come up.  And as each point arises, there is yet another unique opportunity for either side to draw a line in the sand and say, "We're not budging from this."

Negotiations like this are tricky and take a while, and almost every lawsuit that has ever been filed over a contract dispute has been because something wasn't spelled out clearly and one side disagreed with the other over what the meaning or intention was.

This is also exactly why even if we're doing well in the negotiations, we won't hear any real news from it until it's done, and we need to be patient either way.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 29, 2012, 09:12:28 PM
I would like to add that according to what TA put on his blog there are things transpiring that cannot be discussed. It is very possible that there are already potential investors in place but they need to see information and financials etc etc..
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: ukaserex on September 29, 2012, 09:50:44 PM
I thank everyone who spelled out on this post how challenging something that seems so simple on those of us on the outside and not in this industry these things can be. One thing I drew out from Thor's Assassin's post is that it seems as of the core of the Paragon Studios staff seems focused, dedicated and they want to see CoH continue even more than we want to. They have spent a part of their lives on this project.

I also suspect there are negotiations that have to happen about CoH 2. I cant see CoH lasting long term even if all the rights to it were secured. There would have to a future beyond what we have now and hopefully our characters would transfer over into that new project. That is imperative as well IMO and needs to be figured out as well.

The one thing I agree we need to do is not go negative and look like a bunch of angry game nerds, that wont get us anywhere.

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. One thing at a time. Worry about CoH first, then think about CoH2. (whatever that is, anyway)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Omega Mark V on September 29, 2012, 10:05:49 PM
Call it a leap of faith, but I really believe that something will happen to save the game.

I have the same belief.

I have a gut feeling that something is going to happen, and also had De ja vu about it, but that hasn't happened yet.

Note: In that De ja vu, I was IN GAME. I hope this means it's in the future, past November 30th.

Praying for our success, and standing in game as a vigil.

Omega Mark V, out.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: HEATSTROKE on September 30, 2012, 12:25:56 AM
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. One thing at a time. Worry about CoH first, then think about CoH2. (whatever that is, anyway)

Actually I dont think I am getting ahead of myself at all. CoH needs to be saved first which I believe I stated.. However for long term health it would be prudent to begin to develop a newer more up to date game that could possibly incorporate the original game.

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 30, 2012, 01:40:15 AM
@Joshex  To answer your question, the level of investment that is being sought is:

The-price-of-a-nice-house-in-a-good-neighborhood-in-Los Angeles size, not the-price-of-a-good-used-car size.

AND

Each house-sized chunk of money MUST come from an individual, not a pool of individuals.

I can actually understand that last.  No one wants to have to account for/to 10,000 people who pitched in $50 each.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Manga on September 30, 2012, 01:46:14 AM
Each house-sized chunk of money MUST come from an individual, not a pool of individuals.

I can actually understand that last.  No one wants to have to account for/to 10,000 people who pitched in $50 each.

That requirement could possibly kind of be worked around by forming a new Limited Liability Corporation (or using one that already exists).  The LLC acts in the place of an individual as a funding source, and handles all the fund raising in the background.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 30, 2012, 01:49:24 AM
That requirement could possibly kind of be worked around by forming a new Limited Liability Corporation (or using one that already exists).  The LLC acts in the place of an individual as a funding source, and handles all the fund raising in the background.

Well it's not an option Formerly-Known-As-Paragon intends to pursue at this time.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on September 30, 2012, 02:14:47 AM
Hm. *checks the price of a house in Los Angeles* Pity I don't know the area and thus don't know if a "good neighborhood" is "anything that shows up on this search" or "$1M+".

But at least I have a range.

The question is, can I find the means...

Well. We'll see. Now at least I have...a range.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: MWRuger on September 30, 2012, 08:04:54 PM
I've been following the discussion in various threads since TonyV started his work to save COH. It seemed apparent to me that unless you have helpful contacts or skills involving, the law, international negotiation, venture capital or system migration most of are relegated to "go team"  type help.

I myself don't have those skills, but I have others and some of them are useful in "plan Z". So I have mainly been working in that area exclusively with the understanding that any and all of our will be wasted if COH is saved. That is still my understanding and everyone else s working on "plan Z"

I am making this comment mainly to show support for those directly involved in everything but "plan Z". I promise you that as jazzed as we are about what we are doing, we hope it is all bound for the bit bucket.

Until it is, we'll keep working on it. I'll personally leave all the rest to you who are involved. I've no comment about what or how you are doing it, no suggestions, no money that would help or anything else. I can offer Solidarity to the ones the driving the car. From the backseat where I'm sitting that is about all I care and dare to do.

So GO TEAM!

Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: chaparralshrub on September 30, 2012, 08:35:17 PM
Plan Z has come up with some need ideas that I'd be happy to see Paragon implement, though. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them come to light not as part of Plan Z but as features of a revived CoH.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: MWRuger on September 30, 2012, 11:50:32 PM
Oh I agree, I just don't want to distract anyone who's working on other options. There are some very cool ideas - Amusement park(closed or not), Lovecraftian horror and much more.

But Eyes on the prize I say!
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: johnrobey on October 01, 2012, 04:08:05 AM
Thanks as always for the updates!  :-)

Until further word, it's symbolically /em holdtorch for me (unless I'm teaming up with friends and playing.)
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Knightslayer on October 01, 2012, 07:00:57 AM
@Joshex  To answer your question, the level of investment that is being sought is:

The-price-of-a-nice-house-in-a-good-neighborhood-in-Los Angeles size, not the-price-of-a-good-used-car size.

AND

Each house-sized chunk of money MUST come from an individual, not a pool of individuals.

I can actually understand that last.  No one wants to have to account for/to 10,000 people who pitched in $50 each.

Each time I see that, I get a mental picture of the Star Wars galactic senate =P
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Kosmos on October 02, 2012, 05:53:08 AM
Hm. *checks the price of a house in Los Angeles* Pity I don't know the area and thus don't know if a "good neighborhood" is "anything that shows up on this search" or "$1M+".

But at least I have a range.

The question is, can I find the means...

Well. We'll see. Now at least I have...a range.

The price of a nice house in a good neighborhood in Southern California is probably at least $500k. It does strongly depend upon what is meant by the adjectives of course, but that's likely the low end for meeting that description.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on October 02, 2012, 09:28:21 AM
The minimum on the price range I found was $500k, the max "$1M+"

So yes.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: downix on October 02, 2012, 02:25:30 PM
(regarding Cider)
I am unfamiliar with this one.
It is the technology used for the Mac port. Transgaming however licenses this technology to anyone, hell, I have a license. It is based on WINE, and works quite well.

http://transgaming.com/cider
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: LT. Couper on October 10, 2012, 02:14:29 PM
Not sure what thread to post this, but this one seemed right.
Can someone tell or direct me to a thread where it states what NCSoft gains by shutting down CoH? I'm writing a persuasive essay, saying that CoH shouldn't be shut down, and I need advantages and disadvantages, but I can't think of any advantages for NCSoft. I've got plenty of disadvantages both from personal experience and what I've read on this forum (especially the Testimonials thread).

Any info would be apretiated. Thanks!

LT. Couper
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Segev on October 10, 2012, 02:20:48 PM
Unfortunately, I forget the threads, but among other suggestions have been thoughts that they were looking for a tax writeoff due to "losses" projected from cutting the game.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Nafaustu on October 10, 2012, 04:28:17 PM
Not sure what thread to post this, but this one seemed right.
Can someone tell or direct me to a thread where it states what NCSoft gains by shutting down CoH? I'm writing a persuasive essay, saying that CoH shouldn't be shut down, and I need advantages and disadvantages, but I can't think of any advantages for NCSoft. I've got plenty of disadvantages both from personal experience and what I've read on this forum (especially the Testimonials thread).

Any info would be apretiated. Thanks!

LT. Couper

Realignment of company focus was the (possibly slightly paraphrased) original reason.   There have been a lot of ideas postulated on the forums, but that's the company's only official statement to that regard.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 10, 2012, 04:33:46 PM
Realignment of company focus was the (possibly slightly paraphrased) original reason.   There have been a lot of ideas postulated on the forums, but that's the company's only official statement to that regard.

And in shorthand, really all that means is, "We did some decision making about some stuff", which tells us absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: State of the Titan
Post by: Harermuir on October 10, 2012, 06:04:14 PM
For now, they need to shut it down. They have claimed that they have try everything. Not shutting it down will be admitted they lied, and that they have break under customer pression. That's very bad public relation. After that, there is clearly place to a rebirth, i think.