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Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: TonyV on October 04, 2012, 02:43:45 PM

Title: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TonyV on October 04, 2012, 02:43:45 PM
In response to NCsoft's communication on October 2 (http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.html), I want to start by saying yet again that I appreciate the support that NCsoft has given City of Heroes and its community for eight and a half years.  Throughout this entire ordeal, I have had the implicit understanding (and publicly stated (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=296714)) that without NCsoft supporting City of Heroes at the outset, there likely would not be a game for us to fight for.  We appreciate everything that NCsoft has done over the years to help build our community--things such as sponsoring conventions, meet-and-greets, and Player Summits; acquiring the intellectual property rights to City of Heroes from Cryptic Studios in 2007; and the financial support provided to Cryptic and to Paragon Studios as both were just starting out.  For years, NCsoft has embraced City of Heroes as an essential part of NCsoft and helped to build its community into the wonderful one it has become, and for that, we are grateful.

I am not sure what changed, what made NCsoft decide that City of Heroes and Paragon Studios no longer fits within the long term goals of NCsoft.  From multiple sources, it is my understanding that City of Heroes was still doing very well.  Indeed, looking at the data provided by NCsoft's earnings releases (http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx), City of Heroes seems to be a steady performer in the NCsoft portfolio, even better than games like Guild Wars, which has received a sequel and continues to be actively supported.  Nevertheless, it has never been my intention to question the business decisions made by NCsoft.  If NCsoft does not wish for City of Heroes to be part of its portfolio going forward for whatever reasons, then I will respect that decision.

However, I continue to strongly feel that NCsoft is not seriously considering the option of allowing the City of Heroes intellectual property and code to be acquired by a third party.  To be blunt, I do not understand how NCsoft can honestly claim that it has "exhausted all options."  As long as NCsoft owns the City of Heroes property, it always has the option of allowing it to be sold.  The only way that all options could possibly be exhausted is for a contract to be signed and the property transferred, at which time NCsoft would no longer have any say in the matter.

Perhaps the statement meant to say that NCsoft has exhausted all options it finds reasonable.  If so, then I still disagree.  While I do not know the details of negotiations that have been occurring between NCsoft and former members of Paragon Studios and/or other game publishers, I am aware that they have been taking place.  I find it impossible to believe that these studios and publishers have not been able to offer any reasonable offer for the property.  Also, I have reached out to NCsoft multiple times in an attempt to discuss the situation myself, to hopefully either make an offer on behalf of the game's players or, at the very least, to inform NCsoft of factors that need to be considered in negotiations with other studios.  With the exception of the legal department providing an e-mail address for players to express their thoughts to NCsoft, I have received no response to my communications.  If this is the case, then I strongly feel that NCsoft needs to seriously consider whether what it finds reasonable is, in fact, reasonable.

So I hope you understand that when I read that NCsoft feels that it has exhausted all options for keeping City of Heroes active, I find that statement disingenuous at best.

I feel that NCsoft is still looking at this issue as a question of, "What reasons do we have to sell City of Heroes?"  In my communications I have offered several, including the obvious answers of providing revenue for other projects and the positive public relations that would come from a game publisher working with a community to achieve something almost unprecedented in the industry: keeping a game alive even after its publisher feels that it is no longer part of its long term plans.  Maybe NCsoft feels that it has exhausted all options in coming up with answers to that question.

However, I think that an even more important question is: What reasons does NCsoft have to not sell City of Heroes?  Because this is the question that really has me scratching my head.  Are there legal issues?  Of course, but are they insurmountable?  Obviously not, as proven by the fact that NCsoft itself acquired complete ownership of the game in 2007 from Cryptic Studios.  Is NCsoft afraid that City of Heroes will become a competitor with the company's other titles?  Then hedge your risk by retaining an ownership stake in the title with no investment obligation.  If it performs well, everyone wins; if it does not, NCsoft has not lost anything.

Are there other issues that are preventing the sale?  If so, then tell us, and together we can figure out some way to work around it or compromise on a solution.  I currently work for one of the largest IT companies in the world, and my full time is dedicated to a client who is also one of the largest manufacturing companies in the world.  In my experience, there is no such thing as exhausting all possibilities in the business world.  When a company wants or needs something to happen, it happens.  When a company says that it has exhausted all possibilities, that means that it did not want or need it badly enough to continue trying.  To me, our current status is simply that we have not yet convinced NCsoft well enough that it wants to sell City of Heroes.

What I think that NCsoft is not realizing (or possibly grossly underestimating) is that we as a community have a lot more at stake in the game at this point than NCsoft.  The reasons we need NCsoft to continue working to allow the game to be sold are much more compelling.  I could write for pages about the time and creative energy (and in some cases, much, much more (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5070.0.html)) people have invested in the game, and as individuals, I know how important that is.  However, in this response, I will address something that might be more compelling: money.  NCsoft has invested money into City of Heroes, but the fact is, so have we.  In fact, we have invested more money into City of Heroes than NCsoft has, as evidenced by the fact that the game was earning a profit.  We have more than paid back NCsoft in revenue, and until August 31, were willing to continue doing so.

At this point, I feel that I have to point out that this profit from City of Heroes is part of what has made NCsoft's other titles such as Aion and Guild Wars 2 possible by funding their development.  Hopefully you can understand the anger and disappointment we felt when a mere three days after Guild Wars 2 launched--a game that our money funded--NCsoft in essence kicked us to the curb and has now repeatedly denied us the basic dignity of continuing to exist as a community.  While the money we have invested may not give us any legal standing from an ownership perspective, I believe that it does put an ethical onus on NCsoft to do whatever it can to allow the game to remain active.

So I want to make this clear: We have not yet exhausted all of our possibilities.  To date, I have tried my best to be as deferential as I could to NCsoft in the spirit of staying helpful and productive to the negotiation process.  I have worked hard and with utter sincerity to convince NCsoft that allowing the game to be sold is a smart business decision, as I am convinced that it is.  However, it seems that these efforts have failed to make a meaningful impact, and NCsoft is apparently unswayed by our appeals to allow the game to be sold.

At this point, I intend to continue increasing pressure on NCsoft to further convince them that they should want to sell City of Heroes.  Starting now, I am going to step up our media efforts, including reaching out to mainstream media outlets to further explore the issues of people pouring time and creative energy into gaming services that can be shut down at any time, even when they are making a profit.  I will also be reaching out to Asian media, particularly in Seoul, so that they stop thinking of this as just a problem "over there" and so that we can reach people in their own back yard.  I am going to be increasing our publicity efforts, including mobilizing the community to show up at events such as comic and gaming conventions to get the word out further of what is happening to communities that share a common interest.  I am going to start a campaign of informing NCsoft's customers via avenues such as game review sites and media that NCsoft seems to have become a company that is willing to needlessly kill off gaming communities.  I am going to be performing in-depth financial research into NCsoft to try to answer some of my own personal questions, such as why it is willing to shut down a profitable game, lay off 80+ employees, and kill one of its most active communities to reallocate resources towards... what, exactly?  I am going to be reaching out directly to NCsoft investors to ask if this is really the direction that they want the company to be headed in, in the hopes that if NCsoft management cannot be persuaded, the people paying their paychecks and allowing them to run the company can.

I also want to be crystal clear that these are not threats.  I have always said and will continue to say that I will be intolerant of any illegal activities, including activities intended to physically intimidate anyone or deny service to resources such as game servers.  However, I feel that we are well within our rights to express vocally and loudly that NCsoft has not exhausted all of its options.  This has always been and continues to be simply a matter of willingness to engage in good faith negotiations, and I intend to do my best to make NCsoft reconsider the question of why they are not allowing the game to be sold.  While I appreciate the sentiments expressed of how proud NCsoft is of City of Heroes and how special a place it has in NCsoft's heart, we need more than sentiments.  I have given my e-mail address and telephone number to NCsoft; they have demonstrated that they know how to reach me.  So please, let's stop with the sentiments and figure out a plan for how together we will be able to keep the game going in such a way that we all benefit.

Sincerely,
Tony
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 02:52:08 PM
Hm. Contacting media in Seoul. I should have thought of that. I will make a point to invite their participation in the Media Day event, as well.

I feel it is also worth noting that NCSoft is missing a great opportunity to demonstrate its capacity as a social entity to foment kibun in both itself and its customers. This action as currently taken harms not merely this community's kibun, but risks that of those in other games NCSoft continues to support. How long, one might ask, until another suddenly ends? If NCSoft truly cares, then they need to act in the best interests of all involved.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Blacjac84 on October 04, 2012, 02:57:03 PM
I linked this on various CoH pages on Facebook.

Great commentary.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Kheprera on October 04, 2012, 02:58:30 PM
*applauds*

(Noticed one typo)

(Sorry... it's my job)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Valjean on October 04, 2012, 02:58:57 PM
I think reaching out to Korean media is a great idea. Part of why NCsoft may not be panicking that much is that as far as they're aware, all of the negative press is in America. If there's even a hint of negative press in Korea, the Korean investors would know, and they're the ones that NCsoft really cares about.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Caliburst on October 04, 2012, 03:18:52 PM
Bravo Tony!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Celtic Fist on October 04, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
Well thought out message.

I am not familar with how to do it but in last few days sites I checked the NCsoft stock information on Bloomberg or Reuters and none of those sites had any details that CoH was on the chopping block.  Anyone have thoughts on how to get those types of groups to point out the change and that the community/investors are interested in obtaining  the IP and NCsoft is making percieved half-hearted to sell. or point out the company's reputation in the gaming world as a MMOkiller.

Celtic Fist
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 04, 2012, 03:22:54 PM
/em standing ovation

That was beautiful Tony

Just tell me what to print and i'll pass it out at youmacon. Anything i can do i'll do it, god knows i've been trying. I spent 100 bucks on flyers so far and have been trying my ass off to be heard in my local community as well as contacting other gaming companies to put bids in. I even got a job offer at gamestop because of it, management.

And my dad is gonna talk to bob about using the song for the video friday, he hasn't seen him in 30 yers since he was in salem witchcraft so he's gonna slowly work in the helping us bit. I'll see if in the next month he can't get him to post something in the media like on twitter or something for you all to see.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 04, 2012, 03:24:27 PM
I even got a job offer at gamestop because of it, management.
Congrats on the offer!   :D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 04, 2012, 03:27:08 PM
Congrats on the offer!   :D

Thanks, i was really suprised. I was complaining about how blizzard doesn't screw over their fanbase and being very vocal about what NC has done. Wasn't expecting  job offer from that.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 03:32:07 PM
In addition to Korean media, we might want to look into Japanese media, since Nexon is Japanese.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: ET3D on October 04, 2012, 03:36:32 PM
*applauds*

(Noticed one typo)

(Sorry... it's my job)

What was it? The one I found was "Perhaps the statement meant to say that NCsoft has exhausted all options it find reasonable." Should be 'finds'.

Well said, Tony. I think that at this point the most important thing is to get some factual response from NCsoft regarding sale (or licensing) of the IP.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Wammo on October 04, 2012, 03:43:23 PM
Nice post Tony. It may be time to put out the call for anyone who might speak Korean. If you are going to contact folks over there it will be most well received if the "reach" is done by a native speaker.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Manga on October 04, 2012, 03:43:54 PM
In addition to Korean media, we might want to look into Japanese media, since Nexon is Japanese.

Leave Nexon alone for now.  I think we should attempt to work with them, and if we interfere with their business now via the press, they're going to shut us out before we even contact them.  We want to make it clear that NCSoft's behavior is the only thing messing with their business.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: frostcoh on October 04, 2012, 03:45:11 PM
How will you be reaching out to Korean media, and what is the time frame for this?

What can we do to help?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Kheprera on October 04, 2012, 03:46:41 PM
What was it? The one I found was "Perhaps the statement meant to say that NCsoft has exhausted all options it find reasonable." Should be 'finds'.

Well said, Tony. I think that at this point the most important thing is to get some factual response from NCsoft regarding sale (or licensing) of the IP.

That was it.  If Tony has already sent it, then it's irrelevant.  :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 04, 2012, 03:46:53 PM
Well said, as usual.  I'll be ready to assist in whatever needs to be done.  I'm particularly interested in Korean media.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 03:48:25 PM
Oh, I wasn't suggesting we broadcast Nexon's involvement with NCSoft as part of the media outreach to Japan. Just give the story to Japan to raise the noise there. NCSoft will take a bit of a hit in Japan, but the big thing this will do is make Nexon - who doubtless pays attention to Japanese culture - will start to wonder how NCSoft is reflecting on them if their connection should become a story. They are in a position to apply pressure, and they'll want to before it even comes close to touching them.

So while they're the target, it's more in an "as an audience" sense than "as a TARGET."
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: frostcoh on October 04, 2012, 03:49:03 PM
Tony, please tell me you sent that via Certified mail with return receipt.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: frostcoh on October 04, 2012, 03:50:07 PM
Oh, I wasn't suggesting we broadcast Nexon's involvement with NCSoft as part of the media outreach to Japan. Just give the story to Japan to raise the noise there. NCSoft will take a bit of a hit in Japan, but the big thing this will do is make Nexon - who doubtless pays attention to Japanese culture - will start to wonder how NCSoft is reflecting on them if their connection should become a story. They are in a position to apply pressure, and they'll want to before it even comes close to touching them.

So while they're the target, it's more in an "as an audience" sense than "as a TARGET."

We have been "engaging" or trying to Nexon on twitter as much as possible.  Anytime I mention something related to the NCSOFT stock or whatever I tag @nexon_america
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Zerias on October 04, 2012, 03:52:30 PM
Leave Nexon alone for now.  I think we should attempt to work with them, and if we interfere with their business now via the press, they're going to shut us out before we even contact them.  We want to make it clear that NCSoft's behavior is the only thing messing with their business.

I would argue counter to that.

NCSoft's behavior is now putting Nexon's investment's at risk.  Nexon will have to do something to stop the bad press and publicity from NCSoft's complete mishandling of these events.

What that something is... is up for debate. I think Nexon's best bet right now is to use it's controlling interest in NCSoft to force a sale of the CoH property... probably not at the price, restrictions, or demands that NCSoft itself wants... but just to try and stem the flow of gamer backlash.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 04:01:44 PM
Nexon may not have a "controlling" interest, just a large plurality. "Controlling" generally requires 51% ownership, so no combination of other shareholders' will can amass enough votes to stop yours.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 04, 2012, 04:12:19 PM
Nexon may not have a "controlling" interest, just a large plurality. "Controlling" generally requires 51% ownership, so no combination of other shareholders' will can amass enough votes to stop yours.
Majority requires > 50%.  Controlling may not require that much.  It all depends on how actively the shareholders participate in shareholder meetings and votes.  If the shareholders are mostly apathetic or votes among minor shareholders are almost always split down the middle, the number of shares Nexon holds may well afford them controlling interest.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: QuantumHero on October 04, 2012, 04:14:29 PM
Very well put Tony.  I just really wish we truely understood who made this decision an how much support we may or may not have within the company.  Nexxon is still a question mark in my eyes...they could as easily be our opponant as our salvation and it still feels as if some crucial piece of this puzzle is missing.  <sigh>
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Mr. Wentworth on October 04, 2012, 04:17:52 PM
What a wonderful response to begin the morning with. Thank you, Tony!

I am glad to see NCsoft called out for their lack of decency and communication. I don't agree with the suggestion that we pursue 'kibun' as a strategy. I think it is an interesting discussion topic that distracts us from the purpose at hand. Thank you for your clarity and firmness in speaking our collective mind.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: blue storm on October 04, 2012, 04:21:25 PM
Kudos to TonyV for being our voice !
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DeathSentry on October 04, 2012, 04:28:36 PM
Fantastic reply!!! TY Tony for continuing to give us hope!!! :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: sl701 on October 04, 2012, 04:37:35 PM
Your words made my day, Tony. Very well thought out words. bravo!  :D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 04, 2012, 04:46:29 PM
On another note, Plan Z is likely to succeed. We still have a lot of options.

Also, may I direct some attention here (http://cohforever.org/viewforum.php?f=14&sid=81ff1428c556f265c2ddbd5fc5b34720).

Many are our options, still. :)

Edit: Fixed link tags --TV
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Teege on October 04, 2012, 05:09:10 PM
Great post as always Tony! Keep marching folks, we're not even close to being done yet.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 04, 2012, 05:18:01 PM
Most impressive, civil, but with a well delivered "I mean business" message.  8)
It's posts like these that keep people inspired and give us hope!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Papi-Desire on October 04, 2012, 05:19:21 PM
hello ...

Nice job being done, I just hope it will be fruitful  :)

What NCSoft & any other companies should understand is that if they think they can come & shut down a game people spent so much time & money in, then it will mean we won't trust any other new game to go that far & after City of Heroes, why would I go & place my time & hard earned money in Aion (have it veteran), Guild wars 2 or Wild Star! Before I used to play CoH at least 2-3 hours / day after work, would be one of my best stress-killer. Since the announcement I've been playing only 3 hours till now & still only to finish some arc stories with may main character then taking screenshots for my dedicated facebook profile.

I sure hope it works well & we do get our game back on track.

keep it up

cheers!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: JasaniAVA on October 04, 2012, 05:26:11 PM
Hrm...

Well, if "Plan Z" means what I think it means, I may be of some (limited) help there.  Keep me posted, I have some experience in coding and server maintenance.  (Not as much as others here, I'm sure, but every semi-skilled pair of hands can help make a task easier...)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Enson Red Shirt on October 04, 2012, 05:26:32 PM
nexon owns about 17%
insiders own 23%
investors own 60%
the way you get around a hostile takover from someone purchasing a majority of common stock is simply to have a series of a class of preferred stock that is held by the company and counts at say a 10 to 1 vote or a 100 to 1 vote etc. it is very simple to keep the company from being taken over even if 1 person owns 90% of the common stock
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Profit on October 04, 2012, 06:30:29 PM
Tony,
I am continually amazed at your ability as a wordsmith. Well done.
Prof
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 04, 2012, 06:35:50 PM
nexon owns about 17%
insiders own 23%
investors own 60%
the way you get around a hostile takover from someone purchasing a majority of common stock is simply to have a series of a class of preferred stock that is held by the company and counts at say a 10 to 1 vote or a 100 to 1 vote etc. it is very simple to keep the company from being taken over even if 1 person owns 90% of the common stock

Thanks, i was just gonna say that but i thought nexon had 18-20%.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Enson Red Shirt on October 04, 2012, 07:12:33 PM
after reading nexons quarterly minutes i liked finding this

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Valve-Acquisition-Nexon-NCsoft-PC-Gaming,18007.html

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Enson Red Shirt on October 04, 2012, 07:14:54 PM
heres the structure from nc soft i was slightly off
http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/structure.aspx
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Blacjac84 on October 04, 2012, 07:16:12 PM
I did remember that both Nexon and Valve dispelled the rumors of the takeover of Valve.

The rumor was that Nexon/NCSoft was offering $500 mil for it, which made some people question that since Valve turned down$1 bil from somebody else.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Flamazing Sally on October 04, 2012, 07:23:55 PM
Tony, your response to NCsoft is masterful.  Now, let us know how/where to direct our efforts. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Mister Bison on October 04, 2012, 07:29:49 PM
Majority requires > 50%.  Controlling may not require that much.  It all depends on how actively the shareholders participate in shareholder meetings and votes.  If the shareholders are mostly apathetic or votes among minor shareholders are almost always split down the middle, the number of shares Nexon holds may well afford them controlling interest.
Majority speaks for itself. When you're majority, you get to accept things just by yourself. Except when you've got a *blocking* share. That's below 50% (majority) and above somewhere near 25%, I don't remember how much. And what does that mean is that if you (the blocking holder) don't want something, even the rest 75% of the board can't get it. That's a bit more control than your minor investors, but that's not full control.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Enson Red Shirt on October 04, 2012, 07:30:23 PM
http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-major.html?t=036570&region=KOR&culture=en-us

http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-concentrated.html?t=036570&region=KOR&culture=en-us

http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-selling.html?t=036570&region=KOR&culture=en-us
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 04, 2012, 07:37:42 PM
Unless I'm reading those incorrectly, that only account for a total of 5.89% of NCsoft shares.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Amanita on October 04, 2012, 07:56:28 PM
Well said, Tony! I too am very suspicious that NCSoft wasn't really serious about negotiating anything.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 04, 2012, 08:02:20 PM
TonyV, have you read everything on the "Kibun" thread? A couple things there that you may find quite useful.

Particularly important may be something darkquill mentioned on page 3.

Quote
http://www.ehow.com/about_6373036_south-korea-business-etiquette.html

South Koreans typically prefer to only do business with people they have a relationship with. According to Kwintessential, it is crucial to have a third-party introduction if you have never met or worked with a potential South Korean businessperson. This third-party person is typically called upon when a sensitive matter needs to be discussed.

This may be why SaveCoH (and any other company who is interested in the IP) keep hitting a wall with trying to negotiate a sale. Add to that the fact that NDA's are probably making PS's efforts to get more investors almost impossible, and it's easy to see both the rock and the hard place.

So my first question in light of this info is, has anyone given your name to the bigwigs in Korea? That may be what is necessary to get you in the door to find out what the heck is (or isn't) going on. Who knows just how strict these business guidelines are, but perhaps someone from PS who has already dealt with NC, needs to introduce you. This might even be more necessary n the current situation, if NC realizes exactly what your relationship with the CoH community is. The idea of the leader of the resistance movement coming in, may actually be a bit intimidating for them.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 08:08:09 PM
We know we have at least one link to Brian of formerly-Paragon, and that he HAS done direct business with them. If we need a third party for introductions, he would be a good person to ask.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Heavy Ion on October 04, 2012, 08:08:44 PM
And here I was thinking the best attack chain with Titan Weapons was Rend Armor > Follow Through > Arc of Destruction > Crushing Blow > Whirling Smash. TonyV's is better.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TigerKnight on October 04, 2012, 08:14:36 PM
We need a podium for Tony to stand behind and repeat what he wrote here and put it on you tube. Well thought out and very insperational.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 04, 2012, 08:16:12 PM
Darn it, TigerKnight, now I want to see somebody comb through Obama and Romney speeches and pick one-word-at-a-time clips to build TonyV's speech.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Blacjac84 on October 04, 2012, 08:22:04 PM
Why not have TonyV's favorite toon behind a podium, with a voice-over by the man himself?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 04, 2012, 08:27:43 PM
Now I'm picturing a cross between Robot Chicken and Action Figure Therapy for this. I may have picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Enson Red Shirt on October 04, 2012, 08:43:29 PM
even for such a large company they have a relatively small share structure about 20 mill shares outstanding at aprox 211.78 usd a share or 235500 South Korean won per share
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 04, 2012, 08:47:45 PM
Darn it, TigerKnight, now I want to see somebody comb through Obama and Romney speeches and pick one-word-at-a-time clips to build TonyV's speech.

That'd take a good amount of effort.  I've been working on making Obama sing a song clipped together from words taken from some speeches, and every word is a fraction of a second.  And if you need a word that he doesn't say, you have to splice it together from other words.  Suppose at least for this you wouldn't have to worry about the timing of it.  Just putting into perspective the kind of work required to do this.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Dr Shadow on October 04, 2012, 08:53:33 PM
Korean newspapers
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,4883.msg50330.html#msg50330
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Spellcaster Hana on October 04, 2012, 09:11:12 PM
Thanks for the response Tony. I've been down after reading NCsoft's response to us but thanks to your post, I got back up again. As from what I understand, they are trying their best to demoralize us.
I agree that we should figure out how we can change their mind to sell the game as I really don't get how they've "exhausted all options" to sell it. It's more like " We-tried-but-we-didn't-try-hard-enough-because-we-decided-to-kill-it-anyway-so-screw-you-guys". Like I said, I don't think they've really tried anything at all. What I mean is, Maybe they've tried offering the game to some company around Asia or Korea but have they considered selling it to a company in the West? From what I've heard, many companies on our side want the game saved and would have bought it off their hands if they were going to seriously sell it. I think we should put more pressure and be more aggressive with NCsoft as they are trying to get rid of us by giving us a BS response. They are taking us lightly and they don't see us as a threat. We should offer them a challenge they can't refuse and we should all work harder than we do now. Drastic times call for drastic measures. As long as there are plans in our community and changing their minds, I won't give up just yet.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dior on October 04, 2012, 09:16:35 PM
Probably a really stupid question, but, if we cant get NCSoft to listen to us as players, is there anyone out there prepared to "pool" together funds to buy sufficient shares in the company to give us rights to attend an AGM and demand answers, and or, buy enough shares to call an Extraordinary AGM, or, does anybody have contacts within the major shareholders lists who could push buttons to get investors to either demand answers or sell their holding in protest?

I wonder how many investors have been approached to see if they actually play the game?

What about emailing these investors to point out they are investing in a company which makes decisions without giving reasons for example?

I know it sounds desperate, but then again, if we found a shareholder who plays the game, NCSoft will get shouted at from "the people who pay their salaries".
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 04, 2012, 09:23:53 PM
Probably a really stupid question, but, if we cant get NCSoft to listen to us as players, is there anyone out there prepared to "pool" together funds to buy sufficient shares in the company to give us rights to attend an AGM and demand answers, and or, buy enough shares to call an Extraordinary AGM, or, does anybody have contacts within the major shareholders lists who could push buttons to get investors to either demand answers or sell their holding in protest?

I wonder how many investors have been approached to see if they actually play the game?

What about emailing these investors to point out they are investing in a company which makes decisions without giving reasons for example?

I know it sounds desperate, but then again, if we found a shareholder who plays the game, NCSoft will get shouted at from "the people who pay their salaries".
This has been discussed before.  Seems that the consensus was that buying a sufficient amount of shares to make a difference would be way too expensive to be realistic.  Your other ideas are interesting though, and I don't know if they've been tried out yet.  I do imagine, though, that if someone knew an investor they would have spoken up.  But you never know.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: naztmann on October 04, 2012, 10:08:25 PM
TonyV, you are doing amazing with keeping this thing trucking on. We are all still in this with you.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 04, 2012, 10:10:36 PM
TonyV, you are doing amazing with keeping this thing trucking on. We are all still in this with you.
Hi there.  Thanks for joining :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: SnowJackal on October 04, 2012, 10:39:28 PM
I don't have anything really thoughtful or interesting to add, except thank you, TOnyV. Your letter pretty much just inspired me the way the ID4 speech does!
I'm linking it in many places!
http://furryjackal.tumblr.com/post/32898025343/a-response-from-tonyv-to-ncsoft
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: lfrohman on October 04, 2012, 11:02:21 PM
Whoa!!!... Waitasec!!!... Hellllloooo!!!!  <roadrunner coming to a screeching halt>  Hold the fort!!!  I don't know about you guys, and I have not read EVERY reply, but this could NOT POSSIBLY make sense!  Let me do my best Jack McCoy here.   If the announcement to close Paragon came on August 31, and the response was was on Oct 2, thats roughly 35 days, give or take a holiday, sick day, or staying home day to play COH.  I am going to ASSUME that they want more than half a million dollars for the game, and I am really lowballing here.  My next question is how long does it take to sell a house?  It takes a couple of weeks for escrow and the monies have to be transferred form one account to another, most are not cash sales, and we know how long banks will take to transfer that money and other federal considerations.  This whole process take about a month if you are the luckiest person on the planet.  For most of the rest of us, this would take a long time.  More than 35 days.  Now NC is saying that in 35 days they have exhausted EVERY possibility?  Anytime a corporation buys out another corp or part of a corp, the transfer takes months.  Think lawyers, paperwork that needs to be filed, investors that need to be informed.....  its not just signing a piece of paper and shaking a hand, we are not selling a car here.  And they exhasuted every option in 35 days :o??  How many options did they consider? 1?  They would need to transfer their login servers, their payment and account servers, the actual server hardware and a multitude of other considerations like HR(insurance, payroll, etc)  And they tried all this in 35 days :o :o?!?!  I never thought once that we would not stop the servers from shutting down temporarily, I dont even think 90 days is enough time, but I thought we woould have a chance to revive or restart the studio and maybe the game goes dark for a month or two.  Just a real complicated process invovled here.  And they exhausted every option in 35 days....  I have a concern we are not being told the truth here :roll:.  NCsoft should be a politician :P. 

Look, fight until we die, its worse to die with regret that you didn't try than if you died trying.  We might not get it done by the 30th, but I'm fighting until NCsoft shuts off THEIR lights and locks THEIR doors. I'll bring the Bourbon... ;D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 04, 2012, 11:11:21 PM
To extend that analogy:  After I spent two years trying to find a buyer for my house in TX after I left the state, I decided to rent it out.

Come on, NCsoft, let us rent your vacant house that you can't seem to sell!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 04, 2012, 11:29:55 PM
Quote
Look, fight until we die, its worse to die with regret that you didn't try than if you died trying.  We might not get it done by the 30th, but I'm fighting until NCsoft shuts off THEIR lights and locks THEIR doors. I'll bring the Bourbon... ;D

I agree, fight till they lock their doors and all options really have been exhausted.....35 days exhausted all options yeah right.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: HEATSTROKE on October 05, 2012, 12:09:18 AM
 Let me know when its time to get nasty and possibly even a little violent.. I have a Nova ready to go...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 12:09:52 AM
Well said Tony.  Once again, you have brought me out of the slough of Despond.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Luna Eclypse on October 05, 2012, 12:25:49 AM
It's a nice response but all it did was agitate me... because it had to be written... because NCsoft can't stop being assholes.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Prexx on October 05, 2012, 12:50:19 AM
Thanks, TonyV!  I think that the release from NCSoft lit a fire under our collective ass.  I also think that I can safely say that your response just stoked that fire into a blazing inferno!

Keep it up!  We are here with you.

We are heroes.  This is what we do.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Juncyard on October 05, 2012, 02:26:01 AM
Tony, that was an excellent response.

Everyone stay positive and continue to fight!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 02:31:38 AM
Well said Tony.  Once again, you have brought me out of the slough of Despond.
Stay strong, VV! If ever you need forumite pick-me-ups, let us know! (I know your husband is excellent at it, though, from what you've posted of his words, so rely on him where possible! But we're all your friends! Even if we did just meet.)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Horror-Frost on October 05, 2012, 03:15:30 AM
Just when I'd fallen into black apathy, Tony brings me back over the brink. Keep on the fight.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: storm1777 on October 05, 2012, 04:08:00 AM
that was an amazing post Tony! I love it!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Colette on October 05, 2012, 04:24:00 AM
Agreed, and well done, Tony.

Okay, everyone seems to be fighting mad. So let's hit 'em where it hurts.

We need a Korean. There must be somebody here who's Korean, or has a friend who's Korean.

We need to take our story to Korean MMO message boards. I understand MMOs are even bigger in Korea than in the west. If the truth about NC-Soft starts popping up on Korean boards, boards NC-Soft can't shut down, then we can start convincing Korean gamers that NC-Soft isn't safe to deal with.

"NC-Soft is a game-killer, don't waste your time or money on their games. They will sell you stuff and then cancel the game without notice. Konsamahida."

THAT would make NC-Soft sit up and take notice. That affects their bottom line, immediately and for the foreseeable future. That would hurt their reputation at home. Let them know that we aren't going away, that we will not stop hurting their reputation, ever, until they change the way they treat their customers.

We've been nice. Time to stop playing nice.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 04:29:16 AM
VV has an excellent letter she's put up for vetting before sending it to the CEO of NCSoft. It's in the "Korean Kibun" thread. I think a solid warning-threat is still warranted before we go fully nasty at all, if only because we want to maintain a Lex Luthor like image should we go red side. That is, even if we're being mean in the way our pressure is applied, it should come off as genteel, polite, and something that can still be spun to be a positive for ALL involved.

If THAT fails, the "red side" might want to pull something like this public Korean awareness campaign. But the thing is, the moment we actually directly impact their reputation in a nigh-irreparable way, it's over for CoH. They likely will can it out of spite unless we can make them hurt SO BADLY that they MUST give in to survive. And if we can do THAT, we might drive them to company-death before they have a chance to cry "Uncle!" That's a big "if," too; who knows how strongly we really can affect them?

Not to say don't try to. Just to say, before you go to a step that far, be very sure you mean it and know what it will cost all sides.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: sabbatha251 on October 05, 2012, 04:39:46 AM
I think it would be great if we went old school. Get a full page add in a major korean paper "Dear NCsoft, You forgot an option! The City of Heroes community would like to buy their game back."  :P
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TinFoil on October 05, 2012, 04:39:59 AM
Tony, time and time again you've shown us you are the right man to follow into this war. I'm completely on board for a media blitz as well as any other actions that might prove useful. If/when all that fails though, I hope those fighting on the reverse engineering front are making progress. Sometimes it takes a Vigilante to be a Hero...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 04:43:54 AM
I think putting pressure on Nexon to curb their dog might be as useful if not more useful, combining with the shaming technique.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 04:48:15 AM
I think putting pressure on Nexon to curb their dog might be as useful if not more useful, combining with the shaming technique.
My memory for names is bad to begin with, so forgive me for not recalling...

Does anybody remember who was doing the "1000 cranes" project? THAT might be best sent to Nexon, in Japan, rather than to NCSoft, if we're going to double-prong this next effort.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: frostcoh on October 05, 2012, 04:50:58 AM
Tony. What do you need us to do to help.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 05, 2012, 05:15:08 AM
If THAT fails, the "red side" might want to pull something like this public Korean awareness campaign. But the thing is, the moment we actually directly impact their reputation in a nigh-irreparable way, it's over for CoH. They likely will can it out of spite unless we can make them hurt SO BADLY that they MUST give in to survive. And if we can do THAT, we might drive them to company-death before they have a chance to cry "Uncle!" That's a big "if," too; who knows how strongly we really can affect them?

If we hurt them severely enough, perhaps they would be forced into jettisoning their current leadership, and new leadership would allow CoH to be sold off or something. Or jthey could just jettison a scapegoat and blame them.  Corporations have options like that to regain some reputation.  I don't think we have to worry too much about hurting them too badly.

And beyond that, even if we can't save CoH, I think we can at least save other games from the same fate by making NCSoft into a cautionary tale.  This precedent of canning a profitable game they're setting is a terrible one.

And if we can manage to ruin NCSoft somehow by sheer bad PR, we can recover the IP from the wreckage.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 05, 2012, 05:16:37 AM
If we hurt them severely enough, perhaps they would be forced into jettisoning their current leadership, and new leadership would allow CoH to be sold off or something. Or jthey could just jettison a scapegoat and blame them.  Corporations have options like that to regain some reputation.  I don't think we have to worry too much about hurting them too badly.

And beyond that, even if we can't save CoH, I think we can at least save other games from the same fate by making NCSoft into a cautionary tale.  This precedent of canning a profitable game they're setting is a terrible one.

And if we can manage to ruin NCSoft somehow by sheer bad PR, we can recover the IP from the wreckage.

Or Nexon will sell it to us.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rejuvenatrix on October 05, 2012, 06:13:07 AM
TonyV...once again, I applaud you!  You are a special kind of awesome, and we are most fortunate to have you spearheading this effort.  Very well said! *standing ovation*
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 05, 2012, 06:13:52 AM
Or Nexon will sell it to us.

Right, something.  If we can't negotiate with current leadership, then perhaps we can hurt them enough to force new leadership of some sort that will.

Getting the notice of shareholders and getting noticed in Korea would help with that.  And just spreading awareness in general.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: aerom13 on October 05, 2012, 06:29:29 AM
Thank you!  I've linked this on my tumblr.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: MacGuyver on October 05, 2012, 07:14:18 AM
I am uncomfortable about the idea of hurting them big and then expecting to get CoH out of it at the end. We are not talking about a U.S. company. There are numerous intercultural and international issues potentially at play. Of course U.S. businesses buy and kill competitors and/or their products all the time.

Not to mention if you tick someone off they might just shelve the CoH IP indefinitely just to spite everyone.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 05, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
I am uncomfortable about the idea of hurting them big and then expecting to get CoH out of it at the end. We are not talking about a U.S. company. There are numerous intercultural and international issues potentially at play. Of course U.S. businesses buy and kill competitors and/or their products all the time.

Not to mention if you tick someone off they might just shelve the CoH IP indefinitely just to spite everyone.

On the flip side...NCSoft has to be careful, lest they rouse a sleeping giant.


(Yes, I know, it was Japan who said that in WWII. The point sticks.)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 05, 2012, 08:08:17 AM
I am uncomfortable about the idea of hurting them big and then expecting to get CoH out of it at the end.

They're already in the process of killing CoH.  Really, it can't get worse.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eeek on October 05, 2012, 10:49:22 AM
I think it would be great if we went old school. Get a full page add in a major korean paper "Dear NCsoft, You forgot an option! The City of Heroes community would like to buy their game back."  :P

HAHAHA!  I would totally donate money to this fund!   In my imagination, I'm seeing full-page ads coming out every 3 days or so:

2nd ad:  REWARD FOR SAFE RETURN!
              City of Heroes game last seen in vicinity of NCSoft.  No questions asked upon safe return!

3rd ad:  Dear NCSoft, apparently your reply to us has been lost in the mail.  Please resend to... (copy list of 20,000+ signatures.)



(Ok, my imagination apparently doesn't continue much further than a week at 6:48 am)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Vulpy on October 05, 2012, 11:28:04 AM
My memory for names is bad to begin with, so forgive me for not recalling...

Does anybody remember who was doing the "1000 cranes" project? THAT might be best sent to Nexon, in Japan, rather than to NCSoft, if we're going to double-prong this next effort.

Good thinking! Unfortunately, I only make origami snowballs.

Edit: Found the post in question (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5161.msg55399.html#msg55399).
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: OzonePrime on October 05, 2012, 11:37:37 AM
On the flip side...NCSoft has to be careful, lest they rouse a sleeping giant.


(Yes, I know, it was Japan who said that in WWII. The point sticks.)


 Yes, they could fill them with a terrible resolve!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Manga on October 05, 2012, 12:33:13 PM
Or Nexon will sell it to us.

I believe the tactic you and P51 are referring to could be a *hostile takeover* - the forced buyout or replacement of board and/or management by stockholder vote.  Usually just the threat of it will change the behavior of a publicly traded company; the risk is that their behavior will become worse in order to poison the stock.  Since they've already done the worst to us CoH players, though, it's not likely to affect us badly at all.  But whether or not it affects the stockholders badly is what would drive that kind of decision.

In short, that kind of threat could lead to NCSoft selling CoH to anyone just to get rid of its toxicity.  Or if they're illogical and stubborn enough, it could lead to them digging in even more, and clinging to it as it drags them to destruction, just to prove that they're still right.  The risk is, if they're willing to go that far to prove they're right, they will drag all their other titles down with them.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 02:47:53 PM
If they went the route of dragging their other titles down with them, the problem for them becomes that the "poison pill" strategy only works if the hostile takeover force wants them in good health. If the hostile takeover force wants a particular property that they can't make any worse, it just makes them all the cheaper to forcibly buy out.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 05, 2012, 02:51:33 PM
The risk is, if they're willing to go that far to prove they're right, they will drag all their other titles down with them.

Well then, that's THEIR fault, not ours.

And the observation that we would be able to pull the COH IP out of the wreckage applies to all the OTHER games they've killed as well!

*DING*

*/em LIGHTBULB!!!!*


I wonder... I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before. But has anyone thought of contacting Richard Garriott?.

The guy got 32 MILLION dollars from NCSoft over the whole Tabula Rasa debacle. But he didn't get his GAME back.

I wonder if he'd be willing to join with our cause?

What level of involvement would be best for him? Would he be most useful as a vocal supporter of the cause who can provide a cautionary tale that dovetails with our own?

Would he be willing to provide FUNDING for efforts at Public Relations for our efforts? 32 Million dollars - surely he has at least half of that money after taxes? Assume he's got at least 5-10 million he can use towards interesting projects... like - oh, say, gleefully putting a stick in the eye of the company that killed Tabula Rasa? Or putting enough money in the hands of people like us that we can have a bigger stick (bigger stick = HUGE advertisements in newspapers and gaming magazines in both America and Korea, or maybe enough money for those stock options? )

Assume one of our arguments in contacting him would be the possibility of getting Tabula Rasa back at some point as alluded to above? Or at the very least, in making himself look good by being a "White Knight" that makes sure what happened to T.R. doesn't happen again? Hey - the man's a wacky dude with a wacky size ego. Enlightened self-interest after all DOES make the world go around!

(In Bill Murray Voice)
 
"If we're wrong, nothing happens! We go to other games - peacefully, quietly. We'll enjoy it! But if we're *right*, and we *can* stop this thing...  Richard... Lord British... you will have saved the characters and accounts of hundreds of thousands of paying customers...



(Yes, yes, I know that it would mostly be TonyV who got the ball rolling on this whole thing and no implied disrespect intended etc. Instead, think of the above as an example of the "appeal to ego" I was talking about. As well as combining humor with inspiration. ^_^ )
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TonyV on October 05, 2012, 02:53:33 PM
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 03:02:47 PM
Alright. If we're going a bit more aggressively negative, then we have VV's letter in another thread which we should make sure has a sort of "time bomb leak" built in so they're aware it will get published in, say, a major Seoul or national S. Korean newspaper as a full-page ad.

The suggestion of contacting Richart Garriott in conjunction with the idea of buying enough stock to "make ourselves heard" made in another thread could have some traction, but those who participated in THAT action would have to be willing to risk the stock plummeting in value and even gaining a 1% voting bloc would still get ignored. Though admittedly, a unified 1% voting bloc would be enough that other shareholders might at least pay attention. (I should note that, using some very rough guestimates and a few numbers I had available, it would cost 20,000 people an average of $3,800 or $7,600 each to obtain that 1% share, which I'd bet most of the 20,000 petitioners can't afford.)

But it's something to consider.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Quinch on October 05, 2012, 03:05:52 PM
"If we're wrong, nothing happens! We go to other games - peacefully, quietly. We'll enjoy it! But if we're *right*, and we *can* stop this thing...  Richard... Lord British... you will have saved the characters and accounts of hundreds of thousands of paying customers...

Does anyone know if there's ever been a point in history that didn't have an appropriate Ghostbusters quote?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rae on October 05, 2012, 03:06:03 PM

I wonder... I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before. But has anyone thought of contacting Richard Garriott?.

The guy got 32 MILLION dollars from NCSoft over the whole Tabula Rasa debacle. But he didn't get his GAME back.

I wonder if he'd be willing to join with our cause?

I did think about it, and I got as far as finding a contact page for him, and no further. Hope this helps.

http://richardgarriott.com/contact/

Yes, I googled. I am both useful AND technologically awesome.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 05, 2012, 03:10:52 PM
Does anyone know if there's ever been a point in history that didn't have an appropriate Ghostbusters quote?

If there is, I haven't found it yet. :D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 05, 2012, 03:25:36 PM
I did think about it, and I got as far as finding a contact page for him, and no further. Hope this helps.

http://richardgarriott.com/contact/

Yes, I googled. I am both useful AND technologically awesome.
Thank you! This could be quite useful.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 05, 2012, 03:30:58 PM
*DING*

*/em Lightbulb!* (yes - again)

Would it help in contacting Richard Garriott if we got our own wordsmith Mercedes Lackey to lend her talents putting together an intro letter to him? TonyV is no slouch in that department AT ALL, in fact he's fantastic! But hey - a little celebrity never hurts either!

(Maybe if we're lucky he or some of his family or friens have read her books?)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 05, 2012, 03:36:31 PM
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 05, 2012, 04:18:37 PM
I did think about it, and I got as far as finding a contact page for him, and no further. Hope this helps.

http://richardgarriott.com/contact/

Yes, I googled. I am both useful AND technologically awesome.

You know... there's a phone number for his agents there. 

Hmm...

Would anyone think it's a bad idea if I literally called them up and just asked if Mr. Garriott is aware of the situation in regards to City of Heroes? And if he isn't - would he (or his staff) mind taking a look at these message boards when he has some spare time? Should I mention that we've thought of contacting him? And why?

If I did - I would stress that the group is only talking about things and has no firm ideas other than that we'd love it if he simply lent his voice in assistance to our cause.

Emails letters are one thing - but talking to someone - anyone - on a personal level sometimes lends interesting results. And I've worked in tech support and I have a polite, effective technique of talking to people over the phone.

(EDIT:  Or maybe that's something better left to TonyV our spokesman?)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Gothica on October 05, 2012, 04:26:28 PM
Alright. If we're going a bit more aggressively negative, then we have VV's letter in another thread which we should make sure has a sort of "time bomb leak" built in so they're aware it will get published in, say, a major Seoul or national S. Korean newspaper as a full-page ad.

The suggestion of contacting Richart Garriott in conjunction with the idea of buying enough stock to "make ourselves heard" made in another thread could have some traction, but those who participated in THAT action would have to be willing to risk the stock plummeting in value and even gaining a 1% voting bloc would still get ignored. Though admittedly, a unified 1% voting bloc would be enough that other shareholders might at least pay attention. (I should note that, using some very rough guestimates and a few numbers I had available, it would cost 20,000 people an average of $3,800 or $7,600 each to obtain that 1% share, which I'd bet most of the 20,000 petitioners can't afford.)

But it's something to consider.

Regarding the first point: What about crowdsourcing full-page ads in major US and Korean pubs? Enough bang for the buck?

Regarding the second (and feel free to steer me to the appropriate thread for this), do we have (or could we get) the corporate bylaws in order to find out what it takes to force the calling of a shareholders' meeting?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 05, 2012, 05:23:35 PM
*DING*

*/em Lightbulb!* (yes - again)

Would it help in contacting Richard Garriott if we got our own wordsmith Mercedes Lackey to lend her talents putting together an intro letter to him? TonyV is no slouch in that department AT ALL, in fact he's fantastic! But hey - a little celebrity never hurts either!

(Maybe if we're lucky he or some of his family or friens have read her books?)
Considering he is Lord British, I'd say he's more than likely into Fantasy, which means there's a good chance he's a fan or at least familiar with her work.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TonyV on October 05, 2012, 08:45:43 PM
Regarding the first point: What about crowdsourcing full-page ads in major US and Korean pubs? Enough bang for the buck?

I actually intend to do this.  Not so much in U.S. papers, because we're all so spread out, but definitely Seoul and possibly Tokyo.

Regarding the second (and feel free to steer me to the appropriate thread for this), do we have (or could we get) the corporate bylaws in order to find out what it takes to force the calling of a shareholders' meeting?

I've been researching this.  I don't know that they actually hold shareholder meetings.  Keep in mind that NCsoft is a Korean company, so business laws and public company obligations will vary a bit from what we're used to.  I did however find a site that lists all disclosures (http://engkind.krx.co.kr/disclosure/searchdisclosurebycorp.do?method=searchDisclosureByCorpMain&searchCodeType=char&searchCorpName=NCsoft%20Corporation&langTpCd=&fromData=20120705&toData=20121005) made by public companies in Korea, including exercising of stock options (스톡옵션행사).  I've also been reading news articles on the executives and investors.  I'm still digging further to see what rocks I can turn over on NCsoft.  I want to know as much as I can about what makes that company tick, and if there are others here who are more knowledgeable and experienced in the fields of finance and accounting, I encourage you to do the same.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 06, 2012, 12:25:20 AM
Accounting makes my head explode.   :(

But tell me what kind of letter you want written...I can do that. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 06, 2012, 12:32:44 AM
You'll have my pen.


...VV wields it better, but I've gotten a few lucky critical hits in my day!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: WanderingAries on October 06, 2012, 12:38:46 AM
If it helps, from what little I recall of the Marketing for CoH, I do not believe that NCSoft persued the type of full marketing of CoH during the past five years that Cryptic did initially. Obviously they had to back then because otherwise How were you going to sell the bloody thing. I don't remember which I played first GW or CoH, but I do remember seeing adverts in atleast game stores back then. So from my point of view, NCSoft sewed the seeds of today's troubles when they didn't persue appropriate marketing from the start.

IDK why they came to mind, but the moment you talked about Korean contacts I got the names George Takei and Walter Koenig popped in there. I haven't a clue how they could help or WTF they came to mind, but Maybe they know somebody we don't (yet). And yes, I know they're not Korean let alone not both Asian. :-p
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Olantern on October 06, 2012, 02:56:59 AM
I've been researching this.  I don't know that they actually hold shareholder meetings.  Keep in mind that NCsoft is a Korean company, so business laws and public company obligations will vary a bit from what we're used to.  I did however find a site that lists all disclosures (http://engkind.krx.co.kr/disclosure/searchdisclosurebycorp.do?method=searchDisclosureByCorpMain&searchCodeType=char&searchCorpName=NCsoft%20Corporation&langTpCd=&fromData=20120705&toData=20121005) made by public companies in Korea, including exercising of stock options (스톡옵션행사).  I've also been reading news articles on the executives and investors.  I'm still digging further to see what rocks I can turn over on NCsoft.  I want to know as much as I can about what makes that company tick, and if there are others here who are more knowledgeable and experienced in the fields of finance and accounting, I encourage you to do the same.

Based on my (admittedly fairly limited) acquaintance with U.S. corporate law, I'm not sure that forcing a shareholders' meeting would benefit us even if we could do it.

In a corporation, stockholders are the ones ultimately funding the business.  However, their role in governing the corporation is relatively limited, and their role in ordinary business decisions, such as what product lines to sell and which to discontinue, is even more limited.  Stockholders' real power is their ability to vote on who sits on the corporation's board of directors, who in turn police and are policed by the corporation's executives.  (For those familiar with the U.S. political system, the stockholders are like the ordinary voters, the board is a bit like Congress, and the executives are like the President and the rest of the executive branch.)  Stockholders sometimes attempt to get more substantive issues on corporate ballots, but even those often do not make it to a shareholder vote, and those that do tend to be broad policy statements (like "be more environmentally friendly") rather than specific directions to the board or executives ("do X thing").

There are also peculiarities involving different classes of stock: some have voting rights, some don't, etc.  These are far beyond the scope of the kinds of discussions that can work on these fora and are best explained by corporate law specialists, anyway.

I have absolutely no knowledge of how Korean law differs from the scheme I just discussed.

All that said, knowing more about NCSoft's corporate structure and current situation can only help our efforts here.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 06, 2012, 03:00:09 AM
I actually intend to do this.  Not so much in U.S. papers, because we're all so spread out, but definitely Seoul and possibly Tokyo.

I've been researching this.  I don't know that they actually hold shareholder meetings.  Keep in mind that NCsoft is a Korean company, so business laws and public company obligations will vary a bit from what we're used to.  I did however find a site that lists all disclosures (http://engkind.krx.co.kr/disclosure/searchdisclosurebycorp.do?method=searchDisclosureByCorpMain&searchCodeType=char&searchCorpName=NCsoft%20Corporation&langTpCd=&fromData=20120705&toData=20121005) made by public companies in Korea, including exercising of stock options (스톡옵션행사).  I've also been reading news articles on the executives and investors.  I'm still digging further to see what rocks I can turn over on NCsoft.  I want to know as much as I can about what makes that company tick, and if there are others here who are more knowledgeable and experienced in the fields of finance and accounting, I encourage you to do the same.

I think that adds in Seoul and Tokyo are a great idea...Are you collecting money to get started? I can chip in like 20. I'll try an get more. Also if you need some written in Japanese i think i can arrange that or you can talk to Sayuri Hayashi yourself on fb. She reads and writes japanese and is a CoH player.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: MishaFox on October 06, 2012, 04:02:43 AM
I think our biggest problem is that NCSoft itself doesn't know what to do. We need to give them the push in the right direction.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 06, 2012, 04:06:29 AM
There is something going on in the heads of NCSoft's leadership. I just can't get a close enough look at the right angle to figure out what, precisely, that is. I am going to keep working on it, but...

Well. I'm not yet the influential voice I hope one day to be in industry. (Would that I were personally wealthy enough to simply buy out NCSoft, pluck CoH from their grasp and set it under management who understands it, and then let the company pull itself back together again.

...did I just say "would that I were Bain Capital?")


(This is a joke; not actually asking for responses to the question that could turn political, here.)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: frostcoh on October 06, 2012, 04:12:33 AM
I actually intend to do this.  Not so much in U.S. papers, because we're all so spread out, but definitely Seoul and possibly Tokyo.

I've been researching this.  I don't know that they actually hold shareholder meetings.  Keep in mind that NCsoft is a Korean company, so business laws and public company obligations will vary a bit from what we're used to.  I did however find a site that lists all disclosures (http://engkind.krx.co.kr/disclosure/searchdisclosurebycorp.do?method=searchDisclosureByCorpMain&searchCodeType=char&searchCorpName=NCsoft%20Corporation&langTpCd=&fromData=20120705&toData=20121005) made by public companies in Korea, including exercising of stock options (스톡옵션행사).  I've also been reading news articles on the executives and investors.  I'm still digging further to see what rocks I can turn over on NCsoft.  I want to know as much as I can about what makes that company tick, and if there are others here who are more knowledgeable and experienced in the fields of finance and accounting, I encourage you to do the same.

What can we do, how can we donate, how can we get this ball rolling?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Osborn on October 06, 2012, 04:33:24 AM
What can we do, how can we donate, how can we get this ball rolling?
Tony will probably set up a call to action when donations are needed, which will be after he actually figures out what he can do, and if it has a chance to work.

Until then we should conserve our money because if we crowd fund something I doubt we'll get more than 2 shots. He'll let us know when that happens.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Hydrith on October 06, 2012, 04:51:55 AM
Looking at the from a game perspective, I'd like to think that we're walking an interesting path right now.

The talk up until now on most of the forums has been polite, nonviolent (non-abrasive) statements against NCSoft.  Trying to raise the attention of the gaming community to make a change.  I'm a lurker, and have been watching the advancement the whole time, silently cheering you guys on.  You are Heroes.

Now I see things becoming a bit more terse, and maybe, just a bit more abrasive towards NCSoft's reputation and persona.  Willingness to push the envelope just a bit to try and force a more direct action out of the company seems like a step back to some, but something I cheer about, since the first attempt didn't work.  Some would say you're starting to walk towards the redside...I prefer to think that you're not there yet, that you've instead become Vigilantes.  Sometimes being politic and sensible just doesn't work.

Personally, I hope that the next statement NCSoft makes isn't the one that sends the community into a frenzy (i.e. Fuck you, we're not going to give up the IP), and force many players over to the redside, as Villains.  Walking the path of the Vigilante seems most correct, in my honest (and rather doubtful) opinion.  The part of the Hero has been cast, but the system isn't changing.  It's time to take matters into our most capable hands.

You can still be a Hero and be a Vigilante :D

((Okay, I'm done with my game term usage, please return to your statements.))
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Floride on October 06, 2012, 05:45:37 AM
I aproached this like a lateral thinking problem (you know, those riddles where you have to answer 'how did it happen'), because so much about this doesn't make sense. Like NC saying 'sunsetting' and 'world's first and best MMO' in the same sentence. And not giving those effected a reason for killing a game that makes money and actually funds their other projects.

The only way I could answer 'how'd it happen' was: A third party is forcing them to shut it down thru legal channels and NC is forbidden to discuss it. Then at least some of what they've said starts to make sense.

Throughout the 8+ years the game has been around, only 1 third party company ever tried to get the game taken offline and killed. Is it possible that they may have finally succeeded, seeing as they have their own MMO coming out and they initially tried to get CoX shut down due to copyright infringement?

Please, i beg of you, tell me this scenario could not be possible. But it's the only way I've found to explain it.

(FYI - I'm no lawyer and understand very little about international business. Just adding my 2-cents  :D)

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: lurker13 on October 06, 2012, 06:27:44 AM
I am tempted to think this shutdown is the result of one (or both) of two things:
A) The higher-ups overseas simply don't care for a super-hero based MMO deeply rooted in US culture.  Instead they want an Asian WoW clone or a focus on mobile gaming.
B) As Floride suggested, another (most likely DC or perhaps Marvel) party is threatening (another) suit as to run this competitor out of business.  They have made such attempts in the past when they DIDN'T have a game of their own in play, so this certainly seems feasible now.

Regardless of the reason, this has hurt NCSoft from a mind-share preservative and economic consequences are sure to follow.

Having said all that I think given the initiative shown by the members of this board I feel we should focus on what actions WE can do to preserve the game as opposed to simply trying/hoping to convince NCSoft do do something.   I understand as owners of the property they hold all the cards but at the end of the day one axiom rules...money talks.  To that end if NCSoft is unwilling to find a buyer then we should make some attempt do it for them.  I feel if they can a) make even a modest financial gain, and b) save face and reputation, they will take a deal.  To that end here are some potential buyers i feel would be worth reaching out to:

1.  Dark Horse Comics - I really don't know that they have the capital but I can't help but think this would be a fantastic way to get their characters better exposure as well as provide an avenue of introduction new ones.  (to be honest I am still scratching my head as to why DC/Marvel didn't take a "if you can't beat them join them" approach...but that's air through the engine at this point)

2. Joss Wheaton/Stan Lee -  These boys definitely have or could raise the capital and i am *told* they are kinda into super-heroes.  I cannot think of better custodians for a virtual world of super-heroes. 

So there it is.  If anyone knows of how we can properly and effectively pitch to these parties, please speak up.  As others have said in desperate times "Let's roll!"

---
Disclaimer: 
- If this idea or something like it has already been suggested my apologies for the duplication.
- If this is not the proper portion of the board to post this line of thought, please help me route it correctly.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Dr Shadow on October 06, 2012, 07:03:29 AM
Don't know if it's relevant or not but there is a Marvel game going into beta testing.
https://marvelheroes.com/

So after some internet research I've found a line I Will keep following..It's still not conclusive and maybe someone out there will have better research skills than I.

New Marvel game is owned by Gazillion Games.
Gazillion Games purchased Net Devil from NCSoft.

Not saying this is the reason, but I will follow it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: nataliaofvirtues on October 06, 2012, 07:37:24 AM
Absolutely wonderful Tony. You continue to inspire us all. I will continue doing all I can (which is limited to letters, e-mails and such). I have been talking to the managers of the local gamestops about putting flyers in their stores. And I have some flyers out in the gaming department of the local college. Let me know if I can do anything else to help.

And I would like to thank TonyV and everyone else that is helping to Save Our City of Heroes community. No matter how great or small the efforts are, we are all still a "City of Heroes".
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Valjean on October 06, 2012, 08:17:42 AM
.....
The only way I could answer 'how'd it happen' was: A third party is forcing them to shut it down thru legal channels and NC is forbidden to discuss it. Then at least some of what they've said starts to make sense.

Throughout the 8+ years the game has been around, only 1 third party company ever tried to get the game taken offline and killed. Is it possible that they may have finally succeeded, seeing as they have their own MMO coming out and they initially tried to get CoX shut down due to copyright infringement?

Please, i beg of you, tell me this scenario could not be possible. But it's the only way I've found to explain it.

.....

This scenario is possible, but it's not very likely. A devious action like that, particularly by an American company, would be something that would have been leaked by now. Also, it's unlikely that a company would wait 5+ years to resume legal action again. It's more likely that they'd be working on it constantly, such as Apple vs Samsung. The goal is to exhaust the competitor into bankruptcy with non-stop legal pressure.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: MishaFox on October 06, 2012, 08:56:57 AM
A Semi-unpleasant idea to put forward to NCSoft - Keeping the game going but at a lower level - meaning to sacrifice some servers. Closing some 2 or 3 servers to preserve the rest.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 06, 2012, 09:00:50 AM
This scenario is possible, but it's not very likely. A devious action like that, particularly by an American company, would be something that would have been leaked by now. Also, it's unlikely that a company would wait 5+ years to resume legal action again. It's more likely that they'd be working on it constantly, such as Apple vs Samsung. The goal is to exhaust the competitor into bankruptcy with non-stop legal pressure.

Not to mention, from what I've heard about the marvel MMO, you're not actually making your own hero. You're choosing marvel heroes and playing as them.  That's a pretty significant difference.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Frostyfrozen on October 06, 2012, 09:39:14 AM
In addition to Korean media, we might want to look into Japanese media, since Nexon is Japanese.

Also remember NCsoft just sued a Japanese man for a shadow server of Aion. They even going after some of the players on the server. How you sue a guy over a privet server that both game use F2P syatem.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 06, 2012, 12:25:33 PM
I do not think there have been a shortage of willing buyers. It is possible none have offered "enough," but I find it likely that, if this is the case, "enough" is woefully unreasonably high for the value of the IP and the ability to ever make back the sale price. This leads me to believe that there is "something else" at play. I do not think - and this is just my gut telling me it doesn't sound right - it's a third party using legal leverage to force it off.

Unless and until we can worm from NCSoft what they want and why, I think it's barking up the wrong tree to attempt to solicit new buyers. At a minimum, we should probably hold off on such things until Nov. 2, given our reasonable hopes that we'll have new and useful information from former Paragon employees at that time.

In the meantime, I don't think we've even stepped off the path of the hero, here, into vigilantism. Vigilantism would involve some level of callousness. Heroes can and do bring shame to those who are doing wrong when said wrong-doers demonstrate that they are not unaware of their malefaction and show little intention of halting. At this stage, we're just making it louder and willing to show the stick - bad PR - as well as the carrot of good PR. Heroes do sometimes have to punch bad guys.

In that vein, we need to ramp up our visibility and at least maintain our volume. There are four or five things being proposed on the forum right now that are very solid moves:

1) TonyV is looking into newspaper ads in Korea. This will hit them right at home in a way that makes the damage they're doing to their reputation very visible, and may also wound their reputation in a market they thought insulated from this one. I think we should consider including in those ads some mention of a couple of the other efforts, just to make sure that NCSoft can't get away with pretending they haven't gotten them.

2) Certain letters written by VV and others. I will focus on VV's, because her name is the most recognizable, but others are just as powerful. The intent is to personally shame the NCSoft CEO with them in his own eyes, by showing him how badly he has failed or ignored his nunchi, but there is a stiletto hidden in this: while they were not released broadly, they did appear on this public forum. Should they go ignored, they might be part of the content of those ads...or even just written in as "letters to the editor" of Korean newspapers. Or as open letters to the NCSoft CEO and management printed in those papers.

3) Another thread started by talking about a "nuts" campaign used to save a TV show called Jeriko, and has evolved into a campaign to send socks in bulk to NCSoft's headquarters in Korea as a gift. There is some discussion over whether, along with the wholesale purchase of plain white socks, individual gifts of socks with superhero print on the ankles should be sent "for the kids." This should be accompanied by a letter expressing our resolve and our desire to help any in need of such in Korea...and, if NCSoft has no use for these socks, themselves, our desire to let NCSoft feel what it's like to be a hero when they distribute them to charitable causes of their choice. (See the thread for a discussion of "why socks?")

4) There are two events scheduled for October 20th: a charity game-a-thon and a Media Day. Pulling both off together will give significant human interest impact while greatly broadening the demographics who are aware of this effort. Piquing the interest of even 1% of the broader media audience will magnify our visibility and the pressure on NCSoft considerably.


None of these things are inherently bad in a strict business sense, but we know NCSoft has felt the sting of some sort of PR disaster from their vague and mind-trick laden "go home, it's hopeless" responses thus far. Ramping it up and starting to actively erode their image by hinting at (and threatening to do more than hint) the fact that they're doing bad business and making an angry customer base is very likely to provoke at least another scramble at the top as they strive to figure out how to deal with this.

So keep at it, keep organized. We're not an angry mob; we're a focused and disciplined grass-roots organization that is taking deliberate and measured and increasingly aggressive deliberate steps. General Zod may be able to thrash any number of normal humans, but should ten thousand humans punch him at once, even he would feel it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Guardia on October 06, 2012, 01:13:14 PM
Also remember NCsoft just sued a Japanese man for a shadow server of Aion. They even going after some of the players on the server. How you sue a guy over a privet server that both game use F2P syatem.
Mostly because lack of profit does not affect legality.

Copying and sharing someone else's work without permission is against the law in most nations, regardless of if you're making money or not.

Otherwise we'd just copy the CoH game and run it for free, instead of going through the trouble of trying to get ahold of the legal rights to do so.



-k
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Guardia on October 06, 2012, 01:49:31 PM
I suspect if Marvel was smart and changed their minds to include a COH-esque custom character creator, and perhaps a city zone that was reminiscent of Paragon City, they'd end up getting a large chunk of the playerbase from here signing up.



-k
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Valjean on October 06, 2012, 01:50:57 PM
.....None of these things are inherently bad in a strict business sense, but we know NCSoft has felt the sting of some sort of PR disaster from their vague and mind-trick laden "go home, it's hopeless" responses thus far. Ramping it up and starting to actively erode their image by hinting at (and threatening to do more than hint) the fact that they're doing bad business and making an angry customer base is very likely to provoke at least another scramble at the top as they strive to figure out how to deal with this.

So keep at it, keep organized. We're not an angry mob; we're a focused and disciplined grass-roots organization that is taking deliberate and measured and increasingly aggressive deliberate steps. General Zod may be able to thrash any number of normal humans, but should ten thousand humans punch him at once, even he would feel it.

It seems like the actions that had the most immediate response, and got the attention of NCsoft, was when folks started directly e-mailing the executives. That was the one and only time they responded almost immediately.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 06, 2012, 02:02:32 PM
Then we make sure that we mail at least one box of socks to each executive! (As best we can without breaking any privacy laws.)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: johnrobey on October 06, 2012, 02:53:30 PM
Thank you, TonyV and everyone else working to save CoH!  As a fan who also wants to see CoH continue and our dev team back, I've been so (favorably) impressed by this community.  I have little constructive to offer at this time other than my thanks and a pledge to take part in whatever community actions are next planned in our Save/Salvage efforts and to continue to get the word out to veteran players who don't follow forums.  Take care and Stay SUPER!!!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: darkgob on October 06, 2012, 02:58:39 PM
A Semi-unpleasant idea to put forward to NCSoft - Keeping the game going but at a lower level - meaning to sacrifice some servers. Closing some 2 or 3 servers to preserve the rest.
They might actually go for this since it's a surefire way to kill the game.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Tanglefoe on October 06, 2012, 03:20:13 PM
I keep thinking more and more about this so I thought I would say something.  NCSoft is seriously racking up a body count on games, and there was the rumor about buying out Valve, which got me thinking.  What if they are trying to create some sort of outlet like Steam to throw all their dead MMOs into?  You download Steam (or their version of it), pay $$$ each month to play a collection of old, dead and gone MMOs, and they're in the head hunting stage with games, and they just scored big with a game like CoH, which could explain a motive to not sell for mega bucks and sit on so many closed games.  I'll admit this is a pretty wild idea, but if it were true it could explain a lot.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 06, 2012, 03:50:36 PM
I keep thinking more and more about this so I thought I would say something.  NCSoft is seriously racking up a body count on games, and there was the rumor about buying out Valve, which got me thinking.  What if they are trying to create some sort of outlet like Steam to throw all their dead MMOs into?  You download Steam (or their version of it), pay $$$ each month to play a collection of old, dead and gone MMOs, and they're in the head hunting stage with games, and they just scored big with a game like CoH, which could explain a motive to not sell for mega bucks and sit on so many closed games.  I'll admit this is a pretty wild idea, but if it were true it could explain a lot.

I really really really really doubt it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 06, 2012, 03:59:14 PM
I really really really really doubt it.
Yep, very, very unlikely.
I imagine if they meant to do that they would've announced it beforehand, so they wouldn't lose any of their current players.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Tanglefoe on October 06, 2012, 04:03:51 PM
Yeah, I know it is a pretty off the wall idea, but I thought I would see what people think.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: ukaserex on October 06, 2012, 04:35:37 PM
Hmm...

 I graduated years ago with my degree in Business Administration. I don't even use my degree, really. But, there are some things that I do remember. I do know that people are not rational with their money all the time. They don't always make the logical choice, even in light of the evidence.

NCSoft stock - owning a share can give a single vote - but the issue has to come up to be voted on. And, with 1 share costing over 200 us dollars, I could see us getting about 50,000 votes...and what would /could that do? Hard to say, likely not much. I'd actually brought this up a month ago, but the amount of cash needed to make things happen, we could just re-hire paragon studios.

The long and short of it is...we do have a lot of time and money invested in CoH. I know that as much time as the dev team put into creating CoH, I have put at least that much time building my characters and playing the game. And the more time and money we've invested, the more the decision to close CoH bothers us.
 
My mind can think up all sorts of sinister things...like all of us buying a share or two slowly over time.... and then, on a given day in the future - we all put in a sell order at the exact same time. The more stock we hold, the bigger the impact. The problem is, the more stock we hold, the more money we invested in a company whose nebulous business practices are hard to support from an emotional standpoint. Besides, what's heroic about that? We don't forgive people for the people that need forgiving, but we forgive them for us. Life is too short to carry around baggage.

Now, let us suppose that CoH didn't close, but simply just consolidated the resources so they only had a few servers. Not being familiar with all the resources that are required, I'm not at all sure how much time and energy it would take to modify things. In the minds of NCSoft, it might be like putting good money to waste to recoup losses.

I have noticed that our servers used to be shut down for maintenance on a fairly regular basis. Now, not so much. Has anything changed? If so, I can't tell.
What would it cost NCSoft to just let the game keep rolling without new content? How long would it take before apathy from the playerbase set in? At what point would revenue from subs and store purchases drop below the cost to keep a few servers going?

Nexon very recently bought a large chunk of stock of NCSoft. Nexon is also on record that they want to focus on Mobile gaming, whatever that is. (My phone only has Sudoku and an Othello knock-off on it) Perhaps this sudden shift in focus comes from them. Personally, I've no idea.

A large page add in Seoul? It would be expensive. And one day will not be sufficient. In my mind, it would be like a quick poke in the eye, but once the day is over, then what? The next day arrives along with the next edition. I have mentioned before that if we can engage our gamers in South Korea that we might have a stronger voice. This would be one way to reach them.


Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Burnt Toast on October 06, 2012, 04:36:42 PM

Pretty sure NCSoft's plan is a surefire way to kill the game already.


I find it hard to believe if given a choice between the entire game dying...or having to relocate to a different server...most people would prolly choose relocate. CoH with 5-6 servers.. or No CoH... hmmm which would kill the game faster :)





They might actually go for this since it's a surefire way to kill the game.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: SithRose on October 06, 2012, 04:43:35 PM
I will point out that, with the money it would take to become shareholders in NCSoft, it is very likely that we could rebuild a new game with much more effectiveness. Individuals buying shares seems to me to be a less than effective plan - it would be much more effective IMO to keep pressure on the Board and the executives.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: epawtows on October 06, 2012, 05:24:29 PM
A Semi-unpleasant idea to put forward to NCSoft - Keeping the game going but at a lower level - meaning to sacrifice some servers. Closing some 2 or 3 servers to preserve the rest.

Most of the possible reasons put forward for NCSoft's action (a need to get rid of assets for tax reasons, some sort of lawsuit, etc) argue for an 'all or nothing' approach.  I.E., if they *really* need to take a tax writeoff for closing an operation in this quarter:  shutting down a game gives them that.  Closing a few servers of a game does not.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 06, 2012, 05:47:59 PM
Well, question in that case: could they shut down the game, then sell it later, and still get the write-offs?

I mean, I'd be happy enough if CoH were offline for a year, say, and then come back up again later.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: srmalloy on October 06, 2012, 06:58:17 PM
However, I think that an even more important question is: What reasons does NCsoft have to not sell City of Heroes?  Because this is the question that really has me scratching my head.  Are there legal issues?  Of course, but are they insurmountable?  Obviously not, as proven by the fact that NCsoft itself acquired complete ownership of the game in 2007 from Cryptic Studios.  Is NCsoft afraid that City of Heroes will become a competitor with the company's other titles?  Then hedge your risk by retaining an ownership stake in the title with no investment obligation.  If it performs well, everyone wins; if it does not, NCsoft has not lost anything.

Are there other issues that are preventing the sale?  If so, then tell us, and together we can figure out some way to work around it or compromise on a solution.  I currently work for one of the largest IT companies in the world, and my full time is dedicated to a client who is also one of the largest manufacturing companies in the world.  In my experience, there is no such thing as exhausting all possibilities in the business world.  When a company wants or needs something to happen, it happens.  When a company says that it has exhausted all possibilities, that means that it did not want or need it badly enough to continue trying.  To me, our current status is simply that we have not yet convinced NCsoft well enough that it wants to sell City of Heroes.

I think the issue may be one of face -- the image NCSoft has of itself as a successful purveyor of online games. Look at NCSoft's games in the Korean market; there is a particular style of game that Korean players favor -- games that tend heavily to extreme amounts of grinding, the requirement for groups to be assembled to complete most of the content past the early levels, and a restricted level of reward to keep players coming back to the in-game store just to keep from falling behind the curve -- and games that don't fit that mold do extremely poorly, as evinced by the failure of CoH in Korea -- a game which is almost the antithesis of the style of MMO popular in Korea.

But City of Heroes has continued to bumble along, producing a steady but not impressive profit in the Western market, while NCSoft has brought MMOs in the Korean style to the Western market again and again, and has repeatedly seen an initial rush of players interested in the 'new shiny', then its popularity trails off as people see how bad the grind-to-reward ratio is. And there's where the issue of 'face' comes in. NCSoft brings in game after game, and their performance sags until they're closed (at least in the US/Europe), while City of Heroes keeps going; this creates the impression that NCSoft doesn't understand the Western market, and what the players here want in an MMO. By killing City of Heroes, they can continue to bring one Korean-style MMO after another to the Western market, and if they don't succeed, NCSoft can convince itself that it's not the play style that's the problem, it's the subject, and if they just find the right background for an MMO, the Western market will instantly recognize the fundamental superiority of the Korean MMO style and play it in droves for years and years.

Selling City of Heroes sets it up to be a perpetual thorn in their side. If it continues to go along turning a profit, however small, it's going to be out there on the MMO market as proof that NCSoft is not competent at presenting games for the Western market -- that not only do they keep bringing game after game to the Western market, all with fundamentally the same playstyle, that the players in that market don't like to play, but they dumped a successful game they ran that players did like to play that was almost the complete opposite of the style of game they keep shoving down our throats, and it's still succeeding after they sold it to another company (which also shows their lack of business sense for dumping a profitable game).
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Enson Red Shirt on October 06, 2012, 07:47:29 PM
okay lets see i gave the share structure for ncsoft and the prices (that are fluctuating)
and yes there is an american company suing everyone for infringment for the system used to keep latency issues from being a problem in mmos i have an investment in the company that is suing them as well but heres something else to think of for plan z you can download cryptics animation rig for game development under gnu for use with squid or 3d studio max here http://www.crypticar.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8&Itemid=28

oh and this the company Patent Protected Technology - Establishing a mission to deliver cutting edge technology for the interactive entertainment industry, iEntertainment holds an Internet patent (Patent Number: 6,042,477), integral to the development and support of online gaming. The PATENT, entitled Minimizing Latency Technology, allows companies to develop their online communities with real-time integration and visuals.

IEntertainment Network won Patent Lawsuit "2006" Against Epic Games, Atari, Valve Corporation, Sierra, Sony Online Entertainment and various Sony offices.

Since his return IENT has redone the WarBirds Software, won settlements on their Internet Gaming patent, and developed a Military Consulting Division
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Manga on October 06, 2012, 09:23:23 PM

I have initiated contact with NCSoft through multiple paths, offering them a slightly different deal.  I used return-reciepts, so I know their mail server received the emails.  Three out of five made it in.  They'll probably ignore me, but I guess we'll see.
Title: WOW.
Post by: FrankTurk on October 07, 2012, 02:52:46 AM
I realize that I am a n00b here; I think this is my second post ever.  However, I read this post and my jaw dropped at the almost complete lack of maturity and basic sense of business dealings present in saying stuff like this in public.

Tony: I hope that you have, in fact, been in active discussions with the decision-makers in Korea.  Given that they are in a timezone more or less exactly opposite yours  (when it's 9 AM CT here, it's 10 PM there), it must have been difficult for you to have those conversations.  It's utterly certain they lost no sleep to discuss this, and as you therefore must have, I hope it was not time wasted.  But I hope it was actually spent.  Working for a global corporation in another industry with customers in India, China, and Korean, that time difference is a crippler for me even when both sides agree that there are action items to be agreed to and taken; when one side has no interest in the actions at stake, it's a death sentence.

That said, I think you utterly misunderstand the problem.  You think this is a business PR problem for the Koreans -- and assume they think of the decision like Americans or British might think of this issue.  The fact is that CoH was not a profit power-house.  NCSoft's publicly-disclosed numbers for H1 revenue make that transparent.  It may have made some money, but in comparison to the other newer titles in their portfolio, from memory I recall it being less than 5% of total revenue -- and probably less than 2% of profit after they paid for the 80 people still supporting the game, and all the overhead.  When that kind of marginal profit is coming from a non-domestic division of a company, the honest question by any home office is whether or not it's worth the trouble of doing business internationally for not much return.  Sure: I would cross the street for a sack which had CoH's 2011 profits in it, but I wouldn't swim across the ocean for it.

What makes this misunderstanding worse is that you misunderstand Korean culture.  Making them look bad is a great way to incentivize them to ignore you.  Questioning their credibility and, frankly, honor will make them distrust you.  It seems to me you think they will have pangs of conscience for making a business decision they know how to make, when in fact saying they don't know how to make it will do something other than cause them to see you as trustworthy and credible.

I don't mean to be that guy, but I am: you're not doing anyone any favors by telling us what you have planned to do about what you think NCSoft has done to/for CoH.  Business dealings like this are done in private for a reason, and you making them public doesn't make them more likely to go "our way." It makes credible people walk away from a situation which, as they would see it, is full of juvenile players.
Title: Just stop already
Post by: FrankTurk on October 07, 2012, 02:59:08 AM
NCSoft stock - owning a share can give a single vote - but the issue has to come up to be voted on.

You must be kidding.  You think shareholders vote on every business decision made by a company?  I think you need to leave Atlas Park more often.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 07, 2012, 03:36:38 AM
Frank, if you have any ideas that can help in any way, people will listen.  But coming here to tell everyone how wrong they without any suggestions is negative and counterproductive.  If you've got an idea, a remedy, anything constructive, please share.  If not, you're just going to start arguments and lose respect. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 07, 2012, 03:39:00 AM
Frank, if you have any ideas that can help in any way, people will listen.  But coming here to tell everyone how wrong they without any suggestions is negative and counterproductive.  If you've got an idea, a remedy, anything constructive, please share.  If not, you're just going to start arguments and lose respect.

Well said.

Title: Re: Just stop already
Post by: Teege on October 07, 2012, 03:44:23 AM
You must be kidding.  You think shareholders vote on every business decision made by a company?  I think you need to leave Atlas Park more often.

"Interesting idea however I don't believe that's how it works with shareholders. What they can do is. . ., they have limits of. . ."

Gets your opinion across without coming across as the body part that helps in the process of feces removal.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Sir Zues on October 07, 2012, 06:01:14 AM
A very nice and politically correct letter.  I really wish we all knew what they are thinking.  It seems that they have not learned any thing from Samsung.  The way they are doing this Shut down of COH makes no business since at all.  I think their accountants are corrupt.
Title: Re: WOW.
Post by: claedon on October 07, 2012, 06:46:37 AM
I realize that I am a n00b here; I think this is my second post ever.  However, I read this post and my jaw dropped at the almost complete lack of maturity and basic sense of business dealings present in saying stuff like this in public.

{SNIP...}

I don't mean to be that guy, but I am: you're not doing anyone any favors by telling us what you have planned to do about what you think NCSoft has done to/for CoH.  Business dealings like this are done in private for a reason, and you making them public doesn't make them more likely to go "our way." It makes credible people walk away from a situation which, as they would see it, is full of juvenile players.

If our community had $500M USD to approach NC to buy COH, and was needing to initiate high level discussions, then yes, you might have a point about a need for privacy and secrecy.  However, we do not.  Tony's actions are designed as a means to galvanize the community and preserve morale, in addition to serving as discussions of strategy.  The fact that they are public is necessary to guide the energies of this community and to encourage us to "keep the faith".  Ergo, the public nature and content of his postings is laudable, regardless of whether it is in your opinion appropriate for the Korean culture.  The community, especially Tony and the other leaders, have tried many different "face-saving" tactics already, which have resulted in no response; those paths have closed down.  As of this point in time, turning up the heat on the stove is one of the few remaining options left to the community.

Unless you have a better idea?  Please if you do, share it with us.  One should always temper one's criticism with constructive options and solutions.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 07, 2012, 08:12:22 AM
There is a pattern here.  Someone comes in with one or two posts, makes one or more long, seemingly erudite and surface-polite dissertations on how wrong we all are, makes thinly-veiled (or not so veiled) accusations of immaturity, and then expects us to fall down and worship his wisdom.  And he is shocked and angry when we don't, and goes on to make more such screeds.

Go look up Verbal Abuse, and Verbal Abusers, my friends.  Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience with them.  But don't ever expect that when confronted with the label they will see the light.  They never do.  In fact, they will haul in references to all their friends and family and employees who allegedly think they are the kindest creatures on the planet.

Of course they do.  Because by this time, they actually have no friends, only people who tolerate them because they have to, and their family and employees are so beaten down they will always agree with whatever the Verbal Abuser says just on the hope that it might buy them a few moments when he is not browbeating them with words.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Polartica on October 07, 2012, 10:31:48 AM
Whoa!!!... Waitasec!!!... Hellllloooo!!!!  <roadrunner coming to a screeching halt>  Hold the fort!!!  I don't know about you guys, and I have not read EVERY reply, but this could NOT POSSIBLY make sense!  Let me do my best Jack McCoy here.   If the announcement to close Paragon came on August 31, and the response was was on Oct 2, thats roughly 35 days, give or take a holiday, sick day, or staying home day to play COH.  I am going to ASSUME that they want more than half a million dollars for the game, and I am really lowballing here.  My next question is how long does it take to sell a house?  It takes a couple of weeks for escrow and the monies have to be transferred form one account to another, most are not cash sales, and we know how long banks will take to transfer that money and other federal considerations.  This whole process take about a month if you are the luckiest person on the planet.  For most of the rest of us, this would take a long time.  More than 35 days.  Now NC is saying that in 35 days they have exhausted EVERY possibility?  Anytime a corporation buys out another corp or part of a corp, the transfer takes months.  Think lawyers, paperwork that needs to be filed, investors that need to be informed.....  its not just signing a piece of paper and shaking a hand, we are not selling a car here.  And they exhasuted every option in 35 days :o??  How many options did they consider? 1?  They would need to transfer their login servers, their payment and account servers, the actual server hardware and a multitude of other considerations like HR(insurance, payroll, etc)  And they tried all this in 35 days :o :o?!?!  I never thought once that we would not stop the servers from shutting down temporarily, I dont even think 90 days is enough time, but I thought we woould have a chance to revive or restart the studio and maybe the game goes dark for a month or two.  Just a real complicated process invovled here.  And they exhausted every option in 35 days....  I have a concern we are not being told the truth here :roll:.  NCsoft should be a politician :P. 

Look, fight until we die, its worse to die with regret that you didn't try than if you died trying.  We might not get it done by the 30th, but I'm fighting until NCsoft shuts off THEIR lights and locks THEIR doors. I'll bring the Bourbon... ;D


     A politician I'd never vote for.  I had a good cackle and well written mate
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: gandales on October 07, 2012, 11:31:19 AM
Frank, if you have any ideas that can help in any way, people will listen.  But coming here to tell everyone how wrong they without any suggestions is negative and counterproductive.  If you've got an idea, a remedy, anything constructive, please share.  If not, you're just going to start arguments and lose respect.

While he might phrased less harsh, pointing out mistakes helps to narrow the spectrum of solutions. I am not saying that he is right or wrong, if you believe he is wrong dispute it with arguments but don't discard it just because you don't like it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Floride on October 07, 2012, 12:04:10 PM
The petition had no effect, mostly because it didn't speak their language. Assuming the core issue here is money, if we wanna save CoX, there's only one sure-fire way to do it.

Get 20,000 signatures on a petition to raise the monthly VIP rate to $20 USD.

1) If that doesn't turn some heads at NCSoft, it certainly will at (insert any developer who loves to make money here).

2) I dare anyone to find a news outlet that would pass up a story where a fanbase has actually voluntarily decided to raise their own monthly fee.

It would be a win/win situation for us.


And YES, I would gladly pay that price. This game means that much to me. Actually, I'm sorta suprised NC hasn't raised it before now, even if just to keep up with inflation. I only suggest this because I believe the majority of players would also be willing to accept a slightly higher fee to keep this unique game and it's invaluable community alive.
Title: A few responses
Post by: FrankTurk on October 07, 2012, 12:34:26 PM
"What should we do?"

Unless we know someone with $50 million who lives in Korea who never wants to make his money back but is dying to keep City of Heres alive, we should play the game until the end of November -- actually playing rather than logging in to make our 'toons carry a torch -- and enjoy it while it lasts.  Everything else is self-deceptive -- especially pretending that if we just get enough press, things will change.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: FrankTurk on October 07, 2012, 12:47:08 PM
There is a pattern here.  Someone comes in with one or two posts, makes one or more long, seemingly erudite and surface-polite dissertations on how wrong we all are, makes thinly-veiled (or not so veiled) accusations of immaturity, and then expects us to fall down and worship his wisdom.  And he is shocked and angry when we don't, and goes on to make more such screeds.

That actually sounds like what's being done to NCSoft.

Quote
Go look up Verbal Abuse, and Verbal Abusers, my friends.  Unfortunately, I have a lot of experience with them.  But don't ever expect that when confronted with the label they will see the light.  They never do.  In fact, they will haul in references to all their friends and family and employees who allegedly think they are the kindest creatures on the planet.

... because what's being done right now is so effective, yes?  It's verbal abuse to point out it's not -- that makes you not only right, but a victim.

Regardless of whether or not insulting a Korean company and having no cash to offe them can ever create the solution you think you want.

Quote
Of course they do.  Because by this time, they actually have no friends, only people who tolerate them because they have to, and their family and employees are so beaten down they will always agree with whatever the Verbal Abuser says just on the hope that it might buy them a few moments when he is not browbeating them with words.

That's spectacular!  Compare the argument, "You dont have any money or experience doing business with Koreans, therefore: no wonder you can't get the solution you want," to "He's just a friendless orge or troll, so don't listen to him."  Work out which of those is verbal abuse.

And with that: stay awesome, Internet.  You never disappoint.
Title: Re: A few responses
Post by: Turjan on October 07, 2012, 01:12:02 PM
...especially pretending that if we just get enough press, things will change.

In the 21st century, the media call the shots. We may not like it (I certainly don't) but it's true. Everyone processes information with such superficiality it's breathtaking - and the media are the ones who determine what hooks to use in their attempt to catch the attention of people who are rushing about their daily lives.

Look at any health scare story. 90% of them are absolute hogwash, but when a media source runs with one, the effect lingers. Even if the scare is subsequently debunked entirely, you'll find people that still believe the initial scare story.

My point is, enough press can and does change things. Usually, the change is negative because the media know the best hooks are ones that scare/worry/disgust/outrage people. A story saying "someone has a complaint today, but they're trying to sort it out in a peaceful respectful manner" isn't going to sell newspapers or make the public watch tv.

Out of courtesy for NCSoft as the creators of City of Heroes, and as a company from a culture foreign to our own, we have tried politeness. Our initial campaign was nothing but positive. There was no attempt to make NCSoft look bad, or question their credibility or honor. We treated them with nothing but respect.

However, their reaction to our politeness and respect has been dismissive, offhand, patronising and insensitive. It is perfectly understandable that following NCSoft's last 'press release', people feel aggrieved and betrayed. And I feel they have a just and proper claim to seek redress via the media now.

You say making NCSoft look bad is a good way to make them ignore us. Apparently making them look good and trying to understand them also makes them ignore us.
You say questioning their credibility might make them distrust us. If they'd had any respect or trust in us in the first place, they wouldn't have handled the closure of CoH as ineptly as they have.

You say we don't understand Korean culture - I say NCSoft never understood the culture in the west in the first place. We at least made the initial attempt to play the communication game by their rules - they have not done us the courtesy of returning that favour.

If discussing business dealings in the open is what 'juvenile players' do, then what would you call refusing to even entertain the notion of communications at all? That's beyond 'juvenile', it's kindergarten territory.

For every critical observation you make, the equal and opposite is also true in this case. You are pointing out that which is already well known. If you believe you have anything new or constructive to bring to the table however, then please, feel free to do so.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Artillerie on October 07, 2012, 02:00:00 PM
I have nothing but respect for all of those who are carrying on with the fight to cave CoH and i understand why a lot of the efforts have to be announced publically.

This situation seems very fluid and i would guess that there is no such thing as a completely positive move that everyone would agree with.

What seems vital is that we carry on and maintain a united front.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: HEATSTROKE on October 07, 2012, 02:33:01 PM
 I think this was to be expected. These things are called negotiations for a reason. That letter IM is code speak for..

We arent getting the deal we want and if the IP is so valuable give us what we want.

So they make a letter to the public.. which they KNOW is going to get our response...

Then they turn back around and say.. look at these customers and this fan base.. you really want to give us what we want..

Thats how I see it anyway..
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Gothica on October 07, 2012, 02:33:30 PM
FrankTurk,

You're welcome to take your own advice and just give up and play the game until 30 November as you counsel us to do. You're also welcome to make suggestions to us as to how to keep the game alive after that. But this community, which includes some very impressive legal, technological, financial, business, and creative talent, is simply not going to listen to your officious arguments about why its efforts will never work when you make no effort to offer any feasible constructive alternatives. In case you haven't figured it out, we're already in a worst-case scenario here. We have nothing to lose. And since we don't have $50 million or anything close to it, we have to work with the relatively meager resources we have.

If you've got some ideas how to use these resources in a different way that you think will improve our chances, tell us. Otherwise, please go elsewhere and quit wasting our bandwidth..

To everyone else: I've presumed to speak for the community with this post, and I've put our position to Frank as succinctly and clearly as I know how. I intend this to be my last post to him unless he changes his tune; I strongly encourage y'all to follow suit. As they say, "Do not feed the unicorns." We don't have the energy to spare debating him. Going back to Napoleon's maxim 16: if he wants us to argue with him, that's an excellent reason not to do so.

Title: Re: Just stop already
Post by: Codewalker on October 07, 2012, 02:50:16 PM
[Subject] "Just stop already"

NCSoft already told us to stop.

We said no.

If we don't accept that answer from them, why would we possibly accept it from some nobody on the Internet?
Title: Re: A few responses
Post by: sl701 on October 07, 2012, 02:54:40 PM
especially pretending that if we just get enough press, things will change.

...obviously never heard of Jericho and/or Firefly...

Anyway, 20 bucks per months for CoX? I would be in, though I doubt that a majority of players would pay that, even if it would save the game.
Keep up your great work, guys!
Title: Re: Just stop already
Post by: HEATSTROKE on October 07, 2012, 03:13:30 PM
NCSoft already told us to stop.

We said no.

If we don't accept that answer from them, why would we possibly accept it from some nobody on the Internet?

HA Good point..
Title: Re: A few responses
Post by: Manga on October 07, 2012, 03:14:25 PM
There's someone like FrankTurk at every game's forms, and also in every game's broadcast channel.  I know that because every time I try to point out some treatment that's unfair (and something very real, too), and that we players should protest about, someone like Frank shows up and tells me that I'm the only one who's complaining, and I should just shut up and do what I'm told.

They have two things in common: They use the same strategy every time, and they're [apparently the t-word is censored].  They spend all day, every day, posting to forums or hanging around broadcast channels and keeping just within the rules, waiting for someone to come along and tell them to shut the hell up and go away (I wonder if that will do it...).  Then they figure, okay, now I can break the rules and blame someone else for it, and they let loose with a flame war.  It's just like politicians and campaign commercials.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: frostcoh on October 07, 2012, 04:21:23 PM
That actually sounds like what's being done to NCSoft.

... because what's being done right now is so effective, yes?  It's verbal abuse to point out it's not -- that makes you not only right, but a victim.

Regardless of whether or not insulting a Korean company and having no cash to offe them can ever create the solution you think you want.

That's spectacular!  Compare the argument, "You dont have any money or experience doing business with Koreans, therefore: no wonder you can't get the solution you want," to "He's just a friendless orge or unicorn, so don't listen to him."  Work out which of those is verbal abuse.

And with that: stay awesome, Internet.  You never disappoint.

Let me phrase it for you so you can understand it.

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROACTIVE, ACTIONABLE, REAL SUGGESTIONS?
Title: Re: A few responses
Post by: SithRose on October 07, 2012, 04:23:09 PM
...obviously never heard of Jericho and/or Firefly...

Anyway, 20 bucks per months for CoX? I would be in, though I doubt that a majority of players would pay that, even if it would save the game.
Keep up your great work, guys!

He's obviously never heard of Star Trek either....
Title: Re: WOW.
Post by: Tacitala on October 07, 2012, 04:32:53 PM
I had in mind a nice post about how the effort to save SOH was never purely business but something formed from a grassroots-style social organization and that this forum cannot be fully taken as a 'public' setting in the traditional business world.  And it might have been nice, but then I realized that people had already said better, more elegant, things.

So with that in mind, I thought I might give an example of what a truly juvenile response to a situation is.

~ahem~


[subject] Re: WOW <- lulz wrong game!

I don't mean to be that guy, but I am: you're not doing anyone any favors by telling us what you have planned to do about what you think NCSoft has done to/for CoH.

Nuh-uh! Friends let friends in on their plans and these are my friends! Go get your own friends and make your own plans in your own special secret meetings!!  And since you're not going to tell us your plans, or how to make our plans better, then obviously your plans are dumb.

*licks the message boardI licked it, it's MINE!  You can't post here anymore.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: JaguarX on October 07, 2012, 05:07:58 PM
Let me phrase it for you so you can understand it.

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROACTIVE, ACTIONABLE, REAL SUGGESTIONS?

I like this forum.

Back on the current day COX forum, it's always negative criticism that never comes with a solution to the issue they find "wrong" or disagree with. It's like the point is to point out how stupid you and how their opinion is more valid than everyone else because they disagree with one point in the statement. Then it starts the flame war.

Here, someone points out things are wrong and people say, "Hey, do you have a better solution?" Instead of going in guns blazing/insults trying to prove how stupid/wrong the person is for saying the original idea was wrong.

I think I'm going to stay here for a while.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Stormsurge on October 07, 2012, 05:41:18 PM
If anything, Tony knows how to boost morale. Doesn't hurt that he's also right.

All I'm hearing from NCSoft is defensive posturing. They didn't even HAVE to give us any information regarding what might be going behind closed doors and just close the game, but because they are suffering from a PR nightmare, they trying to save face by feeding us lies. So even more, or me anyway, NCSoft just continues to show me how they go about conducting business; which is why I won't be giving them any more of mine.
Title: Re: Just stop already
Post by: ukaserex on October 07, 2012, 06:23:16 PM
You must be kidding.  You think shareholders vote on every business decision made by a company?  I think you need to leave Atlas Park more often.

Oh, no you did not!
Common stock usually carries with it the right to vote on certain matters, such as electing the board of directors.
Korea may, of course, do things differently.

 As I mentioned - the issue has to come up for vote - that issue could be whether or not that boardmember should remain a boardmember. If there were a commonality amongst a collection of seperate shareholders, they could make their wishes known to the board, and even at the next election, elect one of their own - if they have enough votes.

Maybe you should have spent a little more time in Atlas Park.

Perhaps you're one of those.....
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Heat Guard on October 07, 2012, 06:25:51 PM
I like this forum.

Back on the current day COX forum, it's always negative criticism that never comes with a solution to the issue they find "wrong" or disagree with. It's like the point is to point out how stupid you and how their opinion is more valid than everyone else because they disagree with one point in the statement. Then it starts the flame war.

Here, someone points out things are wrong and people say, "Hey, do you have a better solution?" Instead of going in guns blazing/insults trying to prove how stupid/wrong the person is for saying the original idea was wrong.

I think I'm going to stay here for a while.
This.  So can I assume that I'm not the only one that has started thinking of 'these' forums as the CoX forums and the original ones as the 'other' forums?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 07, 2012, 06:33:41 PM
This.  So can I assume that I'm not the only one that has started thinking of 'these' forums as the CoX forums and the original ones as the 'other' forums?
I haven't even been on the 'other' forums in weeks now... >.>
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: ukaserex on October 07, 2012, 06:38:47 PM
The petition had no effect, mostly because it didn't speak their language. Assuming the core issue here is money, if we wanna save CoX, there's only one sure-fire way to do it.

Get 20,000 signatures on a petition to raise the monthly VIP rate to $20 USD.

1) If that doesn't turn some heads at NCSoft, it certainly will at (insert any developer who loves to make money here).

2) I dare anyone to find a news outlet that would pass up a story where a fanbase has actually voluntarily decided to raise their own monthly fee.

It would be a win/win situation for us.


And YES, I would gladly pay that price. This game means that much to me. Actually, I'm sorta suprised NC hasn't raised it before now, even if just to keep up with inflation. I only suggest this because I believe the majority of players would also be willing to accept a slightly higher fee to keep this unique game and it's invaluable community alive.

Honestly, I was at a loss as to why they came up with 15 dollars instead of the nice round figure of 20 bucks. Even 30 dollars is reasonable. However, for that extra money, I'd want either cheaper character transfers or free ones. (or something VIPish.)

I strongly suspect most people will say they wouldn't pay 20 or 30 dollars, but in reality, they would.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 07, 2012, 06:45:27 PM
Honestly, I was at a loss as to why they came up with 15 dollars instead of the nice round figure of 20 bucks. Even 30 dollars is reasonable. However, for that extra money, I'd want either cheaper character transfers or free ones. (or something VIPish.)

I strongly suspect most people will say they wouldn't pay 20 or 30 dollars, but in reality, they would.
I don't believe they would.
In today's F2P industry there's already lots of complaining about the existing 15$ subscriptions, raising the price above that, for an "old" game (as most of the MMO players see CoH by now) would drive them away entirely IMO.
For most MMO's I'd actually do a double take myself and ask "Why are these guys charging more than the competition?".
Just like the current petition we have, that 20k signatures you see aren't even 20k City of Heroes players - I know at least several of my friends that never played the game have signed it, as have former players that don't even have an interest in coming back to the game.
Petitions are nice, but there is a reason most companies don't put much stock into them - taking a minute to sign something, and actually paying for something are two very different things sadly =/
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: omegaultima on October 07, 2012, 07:02:00 PM
I had suggested to TonyV about the possibility of getting more exposure on SomethingAwful.com by purchasing banner ads directed toward bringing awareness to our activities, but didn't hear back from him.
Title: Re: WOW.
Post by: sl701 on October 07, 2012, 07:07:15 PM
*licks the message boardI licked it, it's MINE!  You can't post here anymore.

Thank you very much for this reply, Tacitala. This definitely made my day! :D

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 07, 2012, 07:07:36 PM
I had suggested to TonyV about the possibility of getting more exposure on SomethingAwful.com by purchasing banner ads directed toward bringing awareness to our activities, but didn't hear back from him.
I recommend people avoid that place. Lots of those-under-bridges...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 07, 2012, 07:08:14 PM
I had suggested to TonyV about the possibility of getting more exposure on SomethingAwful.com by purchasing banner ads directed toward bringing awareness to our activities, but didn't hear back from him.

Cracked.com crossed my mind. "5 biggest MMO blunders?"
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: omegaultima on October 07, 2012, 07:10:25 PM
I recommend people avoid that place. Lots of those-under-bridges...

We've had to deal with plenty of those daily in-game anyway, not to mention there have been some in the twitchtv broadcasts since the announcement.  Besides, what kind of hero's would we be if we ran from something as small as having to deal with trolls? :P
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 07, 2012, 07:13:36 PM
We've had to deal with plenty of those daily in-game anyway, not to mention there have been some in the twitchtv broadcasts since the announcement.  Besides, what kind of hero's would we be if we ran from something as small as having to deal with unicorns? :P
I had a thread there decide on running mine and my wifes name through the mud due to a drunk post by an ex of mine. I tend to avoid them like the plague now as a result.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: ukaserex on October 07, 2012, 07:23:31 PM
I don't believe they would.
In today's F2P industry there's already lots of complaining about the existing 15$ subscriptions, raising the price above that, for an "old" game (as most of the MMO players see CoH by now) would drive them away entirely IMO.
For most MMO's I'd actually do a double take myself and ask "Why are these guys charging more than the competition?".
Just like the current petition we have, that 20k signatures you see aren't even 20k City of Heroes players - I know at least several of my friends that never played the game have signed it, as have former players that don't even have an interest in coming back to the game.
Petitions are nice, but there is a reason most companies don't put much stock into them - taking a minute to sign something, and actually paying for something are two very different things sadly =/

But why wouldn't people pay more for a game that they think is better than the other games? I look at it like cola. I like Diet Coke, and I'm willing to pay more for it than the Chek Cola or Diet Rite Cola, etc. They don't deliver the same value for me.

Now, I can understand that CoH doesn't represent value for everyone - but of these folks that are wanting CoH to stay, why wouldn't they pay more? I am certain that I'm not the only one who's looked at the other games out there and found them lacking in comparison to CoH. As for this age of the game I hear people mention, what does that have to do with anything? Sure, I'd like for my characters to look more real and less cartoon-ish, but that's just the way the game is. As for Micro-transactions, who needs 'em? CoH got along just fine for years without them. The booster packs seemed to be a fine way to cram all those micro-transactions in one larger one.

But, I guess that's just me. Darn it, I never have been in the majority.  :-[
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 07, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
But why wouldn't people pay more for a game that they think is better than the other games? I look at it like cola. I like The booster packs seemed to be a fine way to cram all those micro-transactions in one larger one.

But, I guess that's just me. Darn it, I never have been in the majority.  :-[

The benefit to micro transactions is, you still got those players that would buy the pack, which will still do as they've always done - but you also get those people who say "Meh, only the Baron coat interests me in the magic pack... I'm not paying that much for just one piece that I'd use.", these would suddenly be more willing to at least spend -some- money, as opposed to nothing at all (as they would've done if they had to choose between not getting the pack and paying for everything when they just wanted one piece).
Lets say that 50% of our current player base is actually dedicated (AND capable, remember that to some countries 15$ is a LOT of money already) enough to pay that 20$ instead of the 15$, which is probably already way more than the real number is. That means the other 50% would outright cancel their account - and now suddenly the game is losing a lot more money than before.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: omegaultima on October 07, 2012, 07:43:27 PM
unicorns

...huh, did not know that was filtered.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 07, 2012, 07:44:37 PM
Nice post TonyV.  None of this would possible without you leading us my man
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Floride on October 07, 2012, 08:06:59 PM
But why wouldn't people pay more for a game that they think is better than the other games? I look at it like cola. I like Diet Coke, and I'm willing to pay more for it than the Chek Cola or Diet Rite Cola, etc. They don't deliver the same value for me.
Now, I can understand that CoH doesn't represent value for everyone - but of these folks that are wanting CoH to stay, why wouldn't they pay more? I am certain that I'm not the only one who's looked at the other games out there and found them lacking in comparison to CoH.

That was kinda my point. Nobody wants something they enjoy to go away. And all the petition did was say we didn't want it to go away. But if you put your money where your mouth is, that might have more clout. Personally, I think we've been totally spoiled only having to pay $15/month (compared to wll that we get in return).
But I also have to agree with Knightslayer. Petitions don't really reflect actual numbers. It was just an idea I had, but if someone could tweak it into something viable....?
This game is VERY unique... it's not just another MMO. I usually expect to pay more for something rare and outstanding.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: ukaserex on October 07, 2012, 08:32:05 PM
Exactly.

15 dollars a month? That's dirt cheap by just about any standard - any standard in an area that has broadband.
Sure, some children don't have that kind of allowance, and some folks may be on a shoe-string budget - but seriously? I can go on an impulse spending freeze and save 36 bucks a month. (I know this, because I've done it.)

I understand that some folks just don't have that kind of money. Things get tight, especially around the holidays. But, given the number of players I come across that have multiple accounts, I wouldn't see this as much of an issue at all. Mind you, I've not looked at the subscription data or any of the fixed or variable costs to do a cost-even analysis. To me, a micro-transaction is well, micro. Small. Sure, they add up, but I'd rather "know" that I'm getting 20 bucks from 20,000 people than wonder if I'm going to get anything from 200,000.

Conversely, I suppose with the hybrid model, it's better to "know" you're going to get 20,000 subs at 15 bucks a month plus wonder what else will drip in.  As a player, I just want everyone on equal footing. I don't want to be able to "buy" an amplifier unless the rest of the league can "buy" one, too.

I wonder how Marvel will do things...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: gypsyav on October 07, 2012, 09:25:55 PM
But why wouldn't people pay more for a game that they think is better than the other games? I look at it like cola. I like Diet Coke, and I'm willing to pay more for it than the Chek Cola or Diet Rite Cola, etc. They don't deliver the same value for me.


For me it would be a case of having to cancel my subscription if it was higher. I've been a VIP for 8 years even though I've been unemployed for the last 3 of those years. Raising the price of it would start cutting into basic necessities such as food, the mortgage, electricity, gas in the car for my husband to get to work, etc.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Crowdertaker on October 07, 2012, 09:30:08 PM
Has anyone talked about building a game we could use with in-game advertising that could subsidize running the servers?  I think that would be a great idea.  I would be willing to talk to my employer to see if it's something that can be done.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 07, 2012, 09:32:11 PM
Has anyone talked about building a game we could use with in-game advertising that could subsidize running the servers?  I think that would be a great idea.  I would be willing to talk to my employer to see if it's something that can be done.
This was a pretty active topic for a while: http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5231.0.html
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: frostcoh on October 07, 2012, 09:33:33 PM
Has anyone talked about building a game we could use with in-game advertising that could subsidize running the servers?  I think that would be a great idea.  I would be willing to talk to my employer to see if it's something that can be done.

As controversial as this would be, i'm at the point where *anything* saving the game would be worth it, even if I had to look at a jpg advertisement for like Coke, or BMW or some crap while a mission loaded (not videos though that would be really, really annoying).
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 07, 2012, 10:04:41 PM
Perhaps if we have a reward for interacting with ads that is non-in-game oriented, as well. e.g., if people want subscriptions but can't afford them, maybe actively interacting with ads can provide a small discount based on the number interacted with. After all, if the complaint is that they can't afford a subscription, the ads might be an avenue for them to directly help themselves out AND to get perks in-game.

Sponsored ads might even include a special discount coupon that, when used, can be activated for an additional discount to play the game. You were going to buy a case of coke for the week anyway; why not use a coupon to get $1 off AND to get $1 off a monthly subscription after you've bought it?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 07, 2012, 11:13:28 PM
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 07, 2012, 11:23:13 PM
Tick:  "Using words to shame. Critical, sarcastic, mocking words meant to put you down either alone or in front of other people"

Tick:  "Any negative form of name calling is unacceptable. If you feel that it is a put down, then it most likely is. There are names that are obvious and, without question abusive. Then there are the covert, veiled attempts to put someone down that are harder to identify. Verbal abusers love to use 'constructive criticism' to beat someone down down. If a person is constantly criticizing you, “for your own good,” be careful. This is the most insidious form of verbal abuse."

Tick:  "Blaming the victim. The abuser blows his/her top and then blames you for their actions and behavior. If you were only perfect they wouldn’t lose control!"

Tick:  "Your feelings are dismissed. The person refuses to discuss issues that upset you. They avoid discussion of any topic where they might have to take responsibility for their actions or words."

Tick:  "Criticizing - You didn't.. couldn't... shouldn't... should have... could have... never... must... it would be better if... you should be more like..."

Tick:  "Shaming - Shame on you. Why would you do that? You are so bad. You should be ashamed of yourself. "

Tick:  "Disrespectful - Says you don't know what you're talking about. "

Tick:  "Ridicule - Acts of contempt. Wah, wah, wah, you are such a baby. What an idiot. That's what you get for thinking. That's just ridiculous. "

I rest my case.

That's stupid! You're stupid!  I am telling you this for your own good!  I wouldn't have to act this way if you didn't make me!..... ;D  I agree with everything you just said VV I just couldn't help my self it seemed to perfect.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 08, 2012, 12:02:04 AM
That's stupid! You're stupid!  I am telling you this for your own good!  I wouldn't have to act this way if you didn't make me!..... ;D  I agree with everything you just said VV I just couldn't help my self it seemed to perfect.

<hug>
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 08, 2012, 12:40:14 AM
Also, one thing to remember is that you have to *justify* the increase in sub fee's. I know it sounds harsh, but I would rather have the content rolled out at a slower pace, then hike the price up for *all* people who wish to play the game. Sure you might get a *slight* increase in revenue at the start, but for every player that stops subbing, that is *more* money that you have to make up via other means.

I have to agree with this.  Increasing the sub is attractive to us because we'd be willing to pay it.  But a lot of people wouldn't.  I think we'd end up losing money before long, because saying to someone "You wanna sub?  It's only $20/month!" sounds ridiculous.  You'd have to offer A LOT to get a non-subber to pay that.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 08, 2012, 12:53:36 AM
I have to agree with this.  Increasing the sub is attractive to us because we'd be willing to pay it.  But a lot of people wouldn't.  I think we'd end up losing money before long, because saying to someone "You wanna sub?  It's only $20/month!" sounds ridiculous.  You'd have to offer A LOT to get a non-subber to pay that.

what if we kept it 15 and kept the store but we added something extra that if you pay 20 you get. Something that only people who wanted to help coh and could afford would pay for but noone else would be pressured through "need". By need i mean, map or powers. Everyone will feel pressured by content thats why we pay for vip. Well, that and we are loyal. But noone wants to be left out of th fun.  So maybe for 20 you get a special title, name color change and a special aura.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 08, 2012, 01:08:28 AM
what if we kept it 15 and kept the store but we added something extra that if you pay 20 you get. Something that only people who wanted to help coh and could afford would pay for but noone else would be pressured through "need". By need i mean, map or powers. Everyone will feel pressured by content thats why we pay for vip. Well, that and we are loyal. But noone wants to be left out of th fun.  So maybe for 20 you get a special title, name color change and a special aura.
I could get behind that.  Kinda like a three tiered thing, free, VIP and Super-VIP or something.  Extra points, etc would be a good incentive.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 08, 2012, 01:17:35 AM
Well, in response to the objections VV has been arguing against: we take the moral high ground, we may be able to call up enough pressure, political, social, and otherwise, to compel NCSoft to sell the IP. We take the moral low ground, and NCSoft can safely ignore us.

THe fact is that we, the fans, can't stop NCSoft from doing what they are doing. But the entire gaming industry backed by lawyers and politicians might. It all comes back to our slogan. We are hereos, and this is what we do!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 08, 2012, 01:18:21 AM
what if we kept it 15 and kept the store but we added something extra that if you pay 20 you get. Something that only people who wanted to help coh and could afford would pay for but noone else would be pressured through "need". By need i mean, map or powers. Everyone will feel pressured by content thats why we pay for vip. Well, that and we are loyal. But noone wants to be left out of th fun.  So maybe for 20 you get a special title, name color change and a special aura.

For $20 a month, a free server transfer every month, four free whackypacks every month, and a special SuperVIP costume.  I'd pay for that.  None of these things "cost" the company anything.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 08, 2012, 01:21:03 AM
For $20 a month, a free server transfer every month, four free whackypacks every month, and a special SuperVIP costume.  I'd pay for that.  None of these things "cost" the company anything.
That's the beauty of microtransactions.  Once a product for an online store is developed, sales are almost pure profit.  No reason we can't add an upper level of VIP.  If no one uses it, no money is really lost.  But if even a few people do, money is gained.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 08, 2012, 01:21:16 AM
/me watches his "GET ALL THE SHINIES" budget increase yet again, sighs, ponies up
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 08, 2012, 01:31:16 AM
I could get behind that.  Kinda like a three tiered thing, free, VIP and Super-VIP or something.  Extra points, etc would be a good incentive.

yes extra points would be nice
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 08, 2012, 01:32:03 AM
For $20 a month, a free server transfer every month, four free whackypacks every month, and a special SuperVIP costume.  I'd pay for that.  None of these things "cost" the company anything.

thats good too
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on October 08, 2012, 02:01:18 AM
How about a free server transfer and a free rename token every month? :D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 08, 2012, 02:16:19 AM
How about a free server transfer and a free rename token every month? :D

I would probably go for that too.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Floride on October 08, 2012, 02:32:15 AM
what if we kept it 15 and kept the store but we added something extra that if you pay 20 you get. Something that only people who wanted to help coh and could afford would pay for but noone else would be pressured through "need". By need i mean, map or powers. Everyone will feel pressured by content thats why we pay for vip. Well, that and we are loyal. But noone wants to be left out of th fun.  So maybe for 20 you get a special title, name color change and a special aura.
That's a terrific idea. Kudos to Emu for dubbing it Super-VIP too. I think the playerbase would go for this.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Ichaerus on October 08, 2012, 03:47:56 AM
I would offer caution on what's offered via the store/VIP/Super VIP what have you.  I'd rather not have it turn into "Pay To Win" that some of the other MMO games have, such as DDO or LOTRO with what can be acquired.  In my opinion, the Free to Play model the MMO Fallen Earth offered was the best one.  For example, subscribing players could..."bypass" EXP debt if they "forget to duck" in a fight and get knocked out.

The other thing is this.  Let's say(especially in this economy), that you're going along as a subscriber, 15-20 clams a month, but you have a period of time where you're hard up on money, and you have to pass on subscribing to the "yellow banana sticker" super VIP status, the status where you get an exclusive costume, or nifty aura, what have you.  What happens then?  Do you rip away that costume/aura from the person until they get back on their feet?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 08, 2012, 04:41:43 AM
I would offer caution on what's offered via the store/VIP/Super VIP what have you.  I'd rather not have it turn into "Pay To Win" that some of the other MMO games have, such as DDO or LOTRO with what can be acquired. 

Which is why i said it shouldn't be anything that's a real big deal. Nothing that can turn the tides in PVP or leave other players out like special zones.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 08, 2012, 05:01:21 AM
Which is why i said it shouldn't be anything that's a real big deal. Nothing that can turn the tides in PVP or leave other players out like special zones.

I agree.  I don't think anything in super-VIP would offer any competitive advantages.  Right now, VIP players get sets like Time Manipulation for free, but are locked out when they go back to Premium.  Costumes are a bit stickier.  Perhaps the characters would then just get to keep all their current costumes, but if you edited them you'd lose the costume piece unless you returned to Super-VIP?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 08, 2012, 05:03:58 AM
I agree.  I don't think anything in super-VIP would offer any competitive advantages.  Right now, VIP players get sets like Time Manipulation for free, but are locked out when they go back to Premium.  Costumes are a bit stickier.  Perhaps the characters would then just get to keep all their current costumes, but if you edited them you'd lose the costume piece unless you returned to Super-VIP?

yes, i think that is how they do it with vip content so that would also work for super-vip.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: claedon on October 08, 2012, 05:24:00 AM
I almost hesitate mentioning this option, because I have the feeling that people will dismiss it out of hand, as was done previously.  However, another option for Super VIP might be an ongoing, permanent 2-3x increase in earned supergroup prestige / individual influence and yes, experience.

Before this suggestion gets crucified, consider the following.  I dearly love this game, the only game where I have no qualms going out and defeating bad guys with my 5 year old son.  He loved superheroes and still does.  We have created several superheroes together since 2006.  We were looking forward to when his three year old brother would be old enough in a couple of years to do the same thing.  Unless our efforts as a community succeed, this will not be an option for him, and that will be sad.

With three kids (two toddlers), a job where I work 60+ hours a week, volunteering at our church's food bank, and sitting on the board of a non-profit, finding the time even to go to the gym to remain healthy is difficult.  As such, I feel lucky if I can squeeze in 1-2 hours a week of personal time to play CoH.

The affection for this game in our family is very high.  Saying that however, I have never managed to be able to have the time to get a character to level 50, let alone gather enough prestige with my "supergroup" of one to build a cool base.  I rarely team since I don't want to disappoint other people with the small amounts of time I can spend online before dropping out to address real life events.  Because of the amount of time it takes to increase levels, I've missed out on the cool Oroborous thingy :-), seeing what the highest end powers do and look like, exploring the incarnate system, working through the Kheldian story lines, etc.  Since the announcement, I have spend additional time in game, but it will likely never be enough to experience all of the wonderful things that many other players have had years to enjoy.

Given all of that, if I could have the ability to hammer through a few levels a week on only 1-2 hours of play time per week, that would be spectacular.  I wouldn't mind paying an extra $20-$40 / month on top of the current VIP subscription to have that ability.  I imagine that there are others who would really enjoy a game with more story, more heart, than Farmville or Mobsters or some other browser based game, but who do not have much time to dedicate.

Just a thought respectfully given, so please consider it as yet another option that might help continue to justify the life of the "city" that is such a large part of all of our lives.

Best Regards,
Eric
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: NecrotechMaster on October 08, 2012, 05:25:12 AM
Cracked.com crossed my mind. "5 biggest MMO blunders?"

i think that this would also be really good, i dont personally read cracked but i know a lot of people who do
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Triplash on October 08, 2012, 07:43:33 AM
Given all of that, if I could have the ability to hammer through a few levels a week on only 1-2 hours of play time per week, that would be spectacular.  I wouldn't mind paying an extra $20-$40 / month on top of the current VIP subscription to have that ability.

There are actually double XP boosters, like the 50% ones in the store, that were made but only ever sold once for a very limited time. Apart from that I believe the only other way to get them was going to be through the second set of super packs.

What if the Super VIP reward included access to a category in the store where folks could buy the limited time items, all year round? Things like the double xp boosters, holiday costume packs and pets, and so on. Maybe after a while add the older Tier 9 VIP costumes that have rotated out, or the costume set and ultra-rare item from the super packs. Things that a lot of people were looking for a way to directly buy. You wouldn't even have to discount them, just make them available at a set price and whenever the customer went looking for them. If the player chooses not to become Super VIP then they'd have to get these items the regular way - by waiting for the item to turn up in the regular store, by taking chances with super packs, or what have you.

The normal Super VIP price for small consumables such as dual inspirations could be half what they are in the regular store as well, helping to promote more purchases overall. There could also be unannounced "extreme sales" where a regular-store item would be 50% off for a weekend, or 75% off for a day. Maybe even 90% off for an hour, the sort of sale that gets promoted heavily by word of mouth and inspires folks to be pre-signed up as Super VIP so they can be ready to take advantage immediately when it comes along.

The double xp boosters and low consumable prices would be constant draws, with the sales and other items causing occasional surges. This would give many people a strong incentive to become (and stay) Super VIP, while not making it necessary for anyone.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Osborn on October 08, 2012, 07:54:53 AM
Which is why i said it shouldn't be anything that's a real big deal. Nothing that can turn the tides in PVP or leave other players out like special zones.

You never, ever want to segregate the player base, no matter what. I think that the VIP-Only server was actually a terrible idea. Your biggest marketing force in a game that's F2P in some fashion or another is other players, seeing them have fun with some toy or another, or showing off some costume or another and having them go "Oh, cool, THAT looks fun! I want to do that!" and paying for it.

If they're in their own little dimension, then you've effectively reduced your in-game advertisement, and CoH certainly didn't need help having less advertisement for its features.

As somebody who's gone back and forth being both VIP and Premium often as money becomes tight or not (and ironically has probably spent more than just somebody who was VIP the whole time because of it), nothing defeats the spirit of F2P faster than if the players in the Premium game get stomped by VIP players.

People aren't stupid (at least when it comes to this), if they see game set up that to de facto compete you have to be VIP, even if Premium or Free options exist, they're going to see right through it, and it'll turn people off to the game very quickly. I mean, PvP was never a 'huge' part of this game, let's be honest, but why step on the few toes that do enjoy it?

I hope if this game is survived or succeeded by a sequel that whomever runs it understands the F2P model isn't supposed to try to 'trick' players into subscribing, rather it's meant to get people to spend who otherwise won't or can't subscribe long term.

Having goodies for VIP people is important, and having goodies for long-term or 'Super' VIP players (like if Super VIP get more points per month or extra costume slots or quicker travel to zones or other 'convenience of life' upgrades) isn't a bad idea, just don't don't tie the ability to realistically compete in the game to the 'Super' VIP model or set it up in a way where all the VIP or 'Super' VIP people have their own little parties elsewhere away from the rest. It will shoot the whole F2P model right in the foot.

Even though I had enough Reward Tokens to start to run out of things to even get aside from the repeatable objects, I think it was a bad idea to have a lot of the costume pieces be Reward Token only. I also thought it was a bad idea for them to be Veteran's Only when they came out. They're absolutely no reward for people who didn't happen to want to make a Boxing character, and it stymies anybody who wanted to make one but hasn't (or isn't going to play at all now they can't make the character they want). I think that it would had been better if those costume parts be available, even if in the Premium market.

I would had rather opened a Reward Token and gotten a bonus of PP to spend on the character costumes I wanted rather than "Hurray, now I can get Boxing Gloves that I'll never ever ever use!". It would had made me feel a lot more appreciated, and I suspect if some new player saw a Boxing character and was like "Oh, that's cool, I'm going to make something like that.. oh never mind, I can't." it'd be a good way to get them to lose interest in the game.

On the other hand, I wholly support the idea of things like /vault or /auctionhouse or the Reveal power being Reward Token rewards, as that's a good sort of convenience to reward your long term players with.

I would offer caution on what's offered via the store/VIP/Super VIP what have you.  I'd rather not have it turn into "Pay To Win" that some of the other MMO games have, such as DDO or LOTRO with what can be acquired.  In my opinion, the Free to Play model the MMO Fallen Earth offered was the best one.  For example, subscribing players could..."bypass" EXP debt if they "forget to duck" in a fight and get knocked out.

The other thing is this.  Let's say(especially in this economy), that you're going along as a subscriber, 15-20 clams a month, but you have a period of time where you're hard up on money, and you have to pass on subscribing to the "yellow banana sticker" super VIP status, the status where you get an exclusive costume, or nifty aura, what have you.  What happens then?  Do you rip away that costume/aura from the person until they get back on their feet?

My experience has been that characters with power sets that aren't unlocked get locked. Characters with costume pieces stay unlocked and so do the costume pieces and slot... as long as you don't try to edit that costume slot. At which point your costume piece would sort of vanish as if you had turned off the option to show pay-for costume pieces, and you have to either buy them or back out of the menu.

How about a free server transfer and a free rename token every month? :D

The former is 'no reward' for 90% of customers. I know I had a huge stack of sever transfers before Black Friday. Rename Tokens are more useful, but how many people actually just 'happen' to need them on hand?

Honestly sever transfers were effectively rename tokens anyways.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 08, 2012, 08:32:21 AM
Which is why i said it shouldn't be anything that's a real big deal. Nothing that can turn the tides in PVP or leave other players out like special zones.
Like First Ward? Night Ward? Praetoria?
Or do you mean zones that would be Super-VIP only as opposed to the current VIP only ones?
I'm also not sure where the idea suddenly comes from that DDO is Pay to Win, unless the game changed drastically since I've been gone, on DDO you have to buy access to certain races and classes, and of course Adventure Packs (extra content).
Other than that they have the standard XP/Loot boosters, some crappy weapons and armor that you can also easily find in game, and of course cosmetic stuff.
Not to mention you can earn the store currency through playing the game, so technically you could get it all without paying a single dime.
I can't speak for LOTRO, since it never interested me enough to try, but I always assumed it was a similar system to DDO's.

Also, on DDO becoming VIP means you have access to EVERYTHING, all adventure packs, races, classes - no paying extra on top of your subscription each time a new power set comes out.

You never, ever want to segregate the player base, no matter what. I think that the VIP-Only server was actually a terrible idea. Your biggest marketing force in a game that's F2P in some fashion or another is other players, seeing them have fun with some toy or another, or showing off some costume or another and having them go "Oh, cool, THAT looks fun! I want to do that!" and paying for it.

If they're in their own little dimension, then you've effectively reduced your in-game advertisement, and CoH certainly didn't need help having less advertisement for its features.

As for the reason we have the Exalted server... don't look at the Devs, it was because some people in our community decided to get all elitist when the F2P option was announced and threatened to leave the game entirely rather than having to deal with the usual F2P riffraff. =P
If you feel inclined to do so, you can find plenty of posts on the topic in the official forums.
And I agree, it was a terrible idea - I can't even remember another MMO that has it... (though I think there is another one)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Minotaur on October 08, 2012, 10:52:21 AM
I almost hesitate mentioning this option, because I have the feeling that people will dismiss it out of hand, as was done previously.  However, another option for Super VIP might be an ongoing, permanent 2-3x increase in earned supergroup prestige / individual influence and yes, experience.

Before this suggestion gets crucified, consider the following.  I dearly love this game, the only game where I have no qualms going out and defeating bad guys with my 5 year old son.  He loved superheroes and still does.  We have created several superheroes together since 2006.  We were looking forward to when his three year old brother would be old enough in a couple of years to do the same thing.  Unless our efforts as a community succeed, this will not be an option for him, and that will be sad.

With three kids (two toddlers), a job where I work 60+ hours a week, volunteering at our church's food bank, and sitting on the board of a non-profit, finding the time even to go to the gym to remain healthy is difficult.  As such, I feel lucky if I can squeeze in 1-2 hours a week of personal time to play CoH.

The affection for this game in our family is very high.  Saying that however, I have never managed to be able to have the time to get a character to level 50, let alone gather enough prestige with my "supergroup" of one to build a cool base.  I rarely team since I don't want to disappoint other people with the small amounts of time I can spend online before dropping out to address real life events.  Because of the amount of time it takes to increase levels, I've missed out on the cool Oroborous thingy :-), seeing what the highest end powers do and look like, exploring the incarnate system, working through the Kheldian story lines, etc.  Since the announcement, I have spend additional time in game, but it will likely never be enough to experience all of the wonderful things that many other players have had years to enjoy.

Given all of that, if I could have the ability to hammer through a few levels a week on only 1-2 hours of play time per week, that would be spectacular.  I wouldn't mind paying an extra $20-$40 / month on top of the current VIP subscription to have that ability.  I imagine that there are others who would really enjoy a game with more story, more heart, than Farmville or Mobsters or some other browser based game, but who do not have much time to dedicate.

Just a thought respectfully given, so please consider it as yet another option that might help continue to justify the life of the "city" that is such a large part of all of our lives.

Best Regards,
Eric

This can be dealt with by getting the patrol XP right and putting something like the "experienced" power or XP boosters in the store. You might need a power that is account wide and says "triple XP on all my characters for the account's next n in-game hours". It doesn't need to be a super VIP thing. Basically you pay extra cash, get the same result, but it doesn't require super VIP status. Prestige can be handled in similar fashion.

Possible benefits for super VIP:

Ability to create characters at any level up to 25.
More MA arcs, you gain an extra every 3 months of super VIP.
2 free renames or transfers per month of super VIP.
A free respec per month.
Bonus on character storage (enhs/recipes/salvage etc) while subscribed as super VIP (if you reduce the sub, it's treated like the salvage storage was done, you don't lose the stuff, but when you take it out, you can't replace it).
If personal bases are implemented, some bonuses to that.
Bonus store points.
If there is an equivalent to paragon rewards, each month's super VIP subscription counts as 1.5 or 2 months of VIP.



Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 12:27:06 PM
Actually, I think allowing store options to buy "bonus in-game resource" features, which could be open to VIPs as well as to people who want to just buy that perk, is a pretty good idea. It's not "pay to win" as long as the "normal" progression is not so slow as to be useless to even hardcore players. It's just a convenience for those who don't enjoy the low levels or who can't play often enough for the "normal" progression to ever get them anywhere.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Soundtrack on October 08, 2012, 01:16:49 PM
Perhaps if we have a reward for interacting with ads that is non-in-game oriented, as well. e.g., if people want subscriptions but can't afford them, maybe actively interacting with ads can provide a small discount based on the number interacted with. After all, if the complaint is that they can't afford a subscription, the ads might be an avenue for them to directly help themselves out AND to get perks in-game.

Sponsored ads might even include a special discount coupon that, when used, can be activated for an additional discount to play the game. You were going to buy a case of coke for the week anyway; why not use a coupon to get $1 off AND to get $1 off a monthly subscription after you've bought it?

I think this is a very good idea and should be submitted to NCSoft.

They get revenue from Coca-Cola AND they get a customer who can continue paying them. Seems win-win?

And for those customers who do NOT want to see ads while missions load, zones move, etc...they can pay an additional $x.xx per month to NOT see them.

As for me... whether I see the entrance to a Council base or an ad for Lay's potato chips, I could care less. *shrug*
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 01:46:08 PM
I'm actually somewhat against loading screen ads that are crass, game-immersion-breaking ones. Were I in charge of marketing, I would work with our sponsors who wanted such ads to make them be in-game-appropriate things. Product placement in that Council Entrance image, for instance. Or maybe even have a few Signature Characters who, like Booster Gold or the Flash, are more than happy to be "sell-outs" and will feature in cheesy campaigns that appear on billboards and on loading screens.

Make them fun, funny, and reward the players who see them with a sense of Easter egg hunting when they see a new one.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 08, 2012, 01:53:59 PM
A lot of discussion on in game ads has gone on in a thread that may have fallen to page three, by now, and it covers a VIP model and a nonVIP model.  The more discussion, here, about "super VIP," the more I begin to doubt the wisdom.  I'm not staking a vote against it, because there are a lot of good ideas being tossed around for it. A good point was the VIP server, though.  The reality of the "F2P riffraff" never seemed to be a problem, in my experience. If others here saw it, I'm willing to recant this, but I would vote against a VIP server, or, worse, a "superVIP" server. I haven't seen any suggestions for that, just saying.

And, while these are all good ideas, they should also be shared over at Plan Z. If the primary efforts here still fail, then these things are all good considerations for that effort. I'm actually headed there now, to see if someone's already beaten me to it, which usually happens. :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 02:01:42 PM
"Super VIP" would be a separate thing that requires already having a VIP subscription, I think. You can obviously sign up for both simultaneously, and you can add "Super" later on. It has a premium "extra" subscriber fee attached, and the system wouldn't allow you to accidentally buy more months of "Super VIP" than you had already signed up for "VIP."

Since we're currently talking an extra $5/month to bring it to $20/month for the whole package, I'd just set the pricing at 1/3 the pricing of the equivalent time subscription for regular VIP.

As an additional promotion, in recognition of the very human desire to synch these up even if they buy a six-month VIP subscription and, a month later, decide they really want Super VIP to go with it, we can offer "upgrade" packages that allow a buy-in of the next-duration-up (so a 3 month subscription can be upgraded to a 6 month sub) and pro-rate the Super VIP addition. If they're already at the max. non-lifetime duration, it instead is a service wherein we simply allow them to buy an extra duration of that subscription and pro-rate the remainder of this one.

Why only pro-rate if they're extending the subscription? Because we don't want people buying a six month sub and deciding they want Super VIP for the last month and trying to pro-rate it to the six-month rate when they're planning to cancel after this six month period is over.


Regarding "VIP-only" server and "Super VIP-only" servers...no. There will be VIP-only areas (heck, some sort of "VIP lounge" is not unreasonable), if only because they have VIP-only content, but Super-VIP shouldn't have exclusive content, just more convenience gameplay perks.

I know STO already has at least two levels of paid subscription, so this model isn't unworkable.

We cannot, however, allow a snobbish "F2P riffraff" attitude to develop by segregating the paid players from the free players. We want this to be an open community.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 08, 2012, 02:30:59 PM
I'm honestly not a fan of the whole "Super-VIP" thing, I think it will always create the appearance of "I'm not getting the full experience unless I put down 20$", which once again brings us to "Why not give our money to the competition where I DO get the full experience for 15$?".
People who -want- to support the game won't need a special subscription to do so, that's what the whole Paragon Store is for.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 08, 2012, 02:39:39 PM
That is essentially my background gut feeling about it, there is already the option for it in the game *right now* to do it.

And this is a good way to see how well people do it without the need for something in return.

Buy points, save them... although I would *love* the option to be able to gift them to other players.
Now that I would approve of, it's also something that hasn't really been done yet - the closest I've seen it come is some games giving the option to sell store currency for in game money (Perfect World and GW2 being my prime examples), and TERA online has the option to auction house (30 day) game time cards on their in game AH - but not trade or gift them ironically.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 03:32:55 PM
Like I said, STO already has a multi-tiered subscription system. Provided the "Super VIP" levels don't add content, but only add more perks and conveniences, I think it will be okay.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 08, 2012, 03:38:46 PM
The "F2P riffraff" mentality has never been something I've felt was a problem in any game, but that doesn't mean others didn't see it.  I don't have access to numbers, obviously, but I do know that Exalted never had yellow dots next to it after about the first month it was up.  I have almost all the character slots filled, and the highest level character is still in the low twenties.

STO had something that had to do with boxes dropping that required keys you could purchase with points. No idea what was in the boxes, because I was trying to see how the experience was for someone spending no money, but it did leave me feeling like I was missing out, somehow.  I can't remember if something like that was in CO, but their drop system was similar (something floating in the air that you have to "pick up"). I still don't know what the things do that drop. It seems like they've changed something, but I don't play it in a meaningful way.

Point being, drops are an expected part of this kind of gaming.  If it isn't going to be for enhancements or crafting, then a purpose will have to be found for things dropping after a fight.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TonyV on October 08, 2012, 05:39:04 PM
Hey all, I'm not trying to shut down conversation, but we're a long way away from having to deal with any issues around how much to charge for what tiers of subscription fees or various items.  That's probably something that would be better discussed in one of the City Sunset forums (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,144.0.html).

As for the suggestion to give up, roll over, and accept our inevitable fate, I don't find that very useful or productive.  We already have "that guy" who's been telling us that since August 31; his name is NCsoft.  And with all due respect, I don't need lectures about how I should be nicer or more respectful towards Koreans.  First of all, it's a bit insulting to Koreans to simplify all of the issues down to "they just want to save face, that's all that matters."  Second of all, many of the Koreans who run NCsoft have lived extensively in the United States, are familiar with the Western world, and have been heavily influenced by Western ways of doing business.

Third of all, and arguably most relevant, if you read the history of my posts (including the top post in this very thread), you'll realize that I was very respectful and deferential of NCsoft for over four weeks, focusing exclusively on how selling the game would be a win-win-win solution for us, Paragon Studios, and especially NCsoft.  This isn't a Korean thing; it's just smart business sense.  However, it's also smart business sense that when one avenue is shut off to acquiring what you want, you don't just accept your inevitable fate; you figure out other avenues to get it.

Believe me, I would like nothing more than to stay happy and positive going forward.  But we tried that.  It didn't work.  So we're trying something else.

And one thing that I think is being lost here is that we are being treated with an incredible amount of disrespect by NCsoft.  First, they decide to shut down our game which was doing pretty well and lay off 80+ people that some of us had a bond with that was more than just people who make products we enjoy.  Next, they engage in negotiations in which I personally believe they acted in bad faith, turning down offers that were more than reasonable, prioritizing their own inaction and possibly unfounded fear over making profit and helping to save a community, even though their very own Mission Statement (http://global.ncsoft.com/global/aboutus/visiongoals.aspx) is: "The ultimate mission of NCSOFT is to make each and every one on earth happier. That is, to make people's lives more enjoyable."  They also say, "Our organization is built on trust and tight enough that there is no communication barrier."  And my favorite: "Do not hesitate doing what is right. Be brave at carrying out what we believe is right into practice."  To be blunt, at this point I feel that we are living up to NCsoft's visions and goals better than they are.

So please, no more lectures on how I need to be deferential to the poor Koreans who just want to save face until the game shuts down November 30.  We tried, and we're past that now.  At this point, they are insulting us with this "exhausting all possibilities" talk, and if we simply sit by and say, "Thank you for your disingenuous response!", there's no way we can expect--or deserve--to be taken seriously.  At this point, they really do need to be thinking about how to save face, and it's their own durn fault.  I'll be happy to work with them to that end, but as long as there's this communication barrier that their vision statement says doesn't exist, I can't help too much.

I'm still not encouraging us to go scorched earth on NCsoft, but I've been warning them all along that if they choose the path they've apparently chosen, it will cost them in negative public relations.  Not out of spite, but because I do not believe that they are acting as an honorable company in dealing with this issue, and bad public relations is the consequence of acting in such a manner.  I still hold out hope that they will realize their mistake--which again, isn't disassociating themselves from City of Heroes, but in being so closed-minded about selling it so that the community can continue on.  I was hoping that our positive message would accomplish that, but it didn't, so they have chosen the route of criticism instead.  That wasn't our choice, but it's the only one they've given us.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 08, 2012, 05:42:44 PM
Well said Tony.

We gave them the option for a way to save face. They chose to instead pick the dishonest and dishonorable path. They have picked their own battle, we will just make them fight it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 05:50:30 PM
That's their Mission Statement? Fascinating.   8) There's something to be gained, there.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 08, 2012, 05:50:47 PM
Good points, Tony.  ;D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on October 08, 2012, 06:04:35 PM
Superb post Tony. You truly are indeed "the MAN".

And because of that, you get a Ric Flair "WHOOOOOOO" from me :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Turjan on October 08, 2012, 06:10:30 PM
Eloquent and to the point as always Mr V :)
/e clap
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: void hunter on October 08, 2012, 06:14:40 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm going to speak out on this.

You guys have been posting over on the CoH forums for people to come here and participate. This draws attention. When people do come here, it seems at least a few people have seen the unrealistic way of going about things, and have made comments. Now, being INVITED over here, people falsely assume that their input is welcome, only to find out that if it is not identical to the opinions here then they are labeled as a troll, or corporate spy, etc.

The truth is simple, regardless of what spin you want to put on it. If you piss someone off, your chances of ever getting them to deal with you are slim at best. NCSoft didn't listen to your pleas. There are quite a few people that told you they probably wouldn't, hell even you guys said it was all a longshot. Then your pleas turned into veiled threats and tantrums, and for some reason you think this is justified? You keep calling CoH "our game", but it isn't, it's theirs. You don't own anything here. They decided to close it, and you can't force them to do anything.

Get pissed at me, delete my posts, do what you want. It doesn't change anything. You have power here in your forum, but you don't have any over a company like NCSoft. You don't have the numbers, and you don't have the cash. You keep saying they turned down reasonable offers, but every time I checked, you didn't even know what the numbers were.

Tony, you'll never grow if you don't listen. I get it, you're on a crusade, but shutting people down just because you can isn't the answer. That's what NCSoft did, and you didn't respond too well.

VV, calling everyone that has an opposing view an abuser isn't the way either. That person didn't call you a bunch of names either, and didn't tear you down on a personal level. They commented about the unrealistic expectations AND actions that are being perpetuated here. They didn't do it maliciously either. I suggest you work on whatever issues you seem to want to project on people when they voice their opposition to something.

I've said what I meant to, and I fully expect this thread to be deleted, but hopefully others will read it first. You're losing more support each time you take this further from reason.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Buxley on October 08, 2012, 06:15:14 PM
You make excellent points, Tony.

My personal feeling is that NCsoft is greatly underestimating the long-term damage they are doing to their brand as well as the ill-will they are building up among the soon-to-be displaced players, their families, friends, etc. You just can't afford that much bad publicity in today's globally networked world of social media. You just can't do something like this quietly any more.

Another thing is that if, for whatever reason, NCsoft decided to reverse their decision about closing the studio and/or sold the studio a lot of this ill will would simply go away. People appreciate that it takes a lot of will to say "you know, after further review, we've changed our mind".

-Buxley
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Teege on October 08, 2012, 06:17:41 PM
That's their Mission Statement? Fascinating.   8) There's something to be gained, there.

Screenshot it before they change it on you  :P
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 08, 2012, 06:20:30 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm going to speak out on this.

You guys have been posting over on the CoH forums for people to come here and participate. This draws attention. When people do come here, it seems at least a few people have seen the unrealistic way of going about things, and have made comments. Now, being INVITED over here, people falsely assume that their input is welcome, only to find out that if it is not identical to the opinions here then they are labeled as a unicorn, or corporate spy, etc.

The truth is simple, regardless of what spin you want to put on it. If you piss someone off, your chances of ever getting them to deal with you are slim at best. NCSoft didn't listen to your pleas. There are quite a few people that told you they probably wouldn't, hell even you guys said it was all a longshot. Then your pleas turned into veiled threats and tantrums, and for some reason you think this is justified? You keep calling CoH "our game", but it isn't, it's theirs. You don't own anything here. They decided to close it, and you can't force them to do anything.

Get pissed at me, delete my posts, do what you want. It doesn't change anything. You have power here in your forum, but you don't have any over a company like NCSoft. You don't have the numbers, and you don't have the cash. You keep saying they turned down reasonable offers, but every time I checked, you didn't even know what the numbers were.

Tony, you'll never grow if you don't listen. I get it, you're on a crusade, but shutting people down just because you can isn't the answer. That's what NCSoft did, and you didn't respond too well.

VV, calling everyone that has an opposing view an abuser isn't the way either. That person didn't call you a bunch of names either, and didn't tear you down on a personal level. They commented about the unrealistic expectations AND actions that are being perpetuated here. They didn't do it maliciously either. I suggest you work on whatever issues you seem to want to project on people when they voice their opposition to something.

I've said what I meant to, and I fully expect this thread to be deleted, but hopefully others will read it first. You're losing more support each time you take this further from reason.

We've recognized this and are working on it.  The greatest influx appears to have been after the PR Massengill (http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.html) NCSoft poured on us, so patience was low and tempers were high. The fact that you're still here, as are others, is appreciated.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 08, 2012, 06:24:22 PM
I'm honestly not a fan of the whole "Super-VIP" thing, I think it will always create the appearance of "I'm not getting the full experience unless I put down 20$", which once again brings us to "Why not give our money to the competition where I DO get the full experience for 15$?".
People who -want- to support the game won't need a special subscription to do so, that's what the whole Paragon Store is for.

Which is why i said not to make it anything that would do that. I think super vip can work without causing "I'm not getting the full experience unless I put down 20$". We justneed to pick something that isn't a big deal but that thos who wanted to help support a little more and could affort to would do. Like i suggested before maybe just a name color change, a special title and as others suggested an extra server transefer per month or something.

oops i missed tony's post. yeah guess this should be in the sunset thread, sorry tony.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: pandora114 on October 08, 2012, 06:24:45 PM
I've been pretty scathing in my opinion on their "New Direction"  It's  insulting how stupid they think gamers are over here. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 08, 2012, 06:25:49 PM
Void Hunter, I understand where you are coming from, and if I'd annoyed you with something I'd said, my apologies. Emotions are running high right now, and anger is seeping in. People do not like being lied to, so it is understandable.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on October 08, 2012, 06:26:04 PM
Then your pleas turned into veiled threats and tantrums
I have yet to see a "tantrum" from Tony, or anything remotely resembling one.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: void hunter on October 08, 2012, 06:31:59 PM
I have yet to see a "tantrum" from Tony, or anything remotely resembling one.

Well, read through the threads, you'll see plenty of them. Also the whole, "Let's shame them using things from their culture" thing isn't exactly a shining moment I want people thinking about Americans. Regardless of of what people are assuming about NCSoft, they're in fact not out to get us. Their goal is not to insult everyone, it's to close a part of their own company. The truth is probably not a consolation, but they really became apathetic towards us once they decided to close the game. Just like a relationship you can't force someone to stay with you once they decide to leave. Once the "being sweet" thing doesn't work, shame and brute force never will.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Johnny Joy Bringer on October 08, 2012, 06:36:18 PM
Perfectly expressed. Is it time to ask their major investors why they are allowing this?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 08, 2012, 06:37:25 PM
Well, read through the threads, you'll see plenty of them. Also the whole, "Let's shame them using things from their culture" thing isn't exactly a shining moment I want people thinking about Americans. Regardless of of what people are assuming about NCSoft, they're in fact not out to get us. Their goal is not to insult everyone, it's to close a part of their own company. The truth is probably not a consolation, but they really became apathetic towards us once they decided to close the game. Just like a relationship you can't force someone to stay with you once they decide to leave. Once the "being sweet" thing doesn't work, shame and brute force never will.
They shut down a profitable division and then ignored options to offload it. That is mishandling shareholder value. Over and above the game itself, this is not acceptable corporate behavior.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 08, 2012, 06:45:46 PM
Well, read through the threads, you'll see plenty of them. Also the whole, "Let's shame them using things from their culture" thing isn't exactly a shining moment I want people thinking about Americans. Regardless of of what people are assuming about NCSoft, they're in fact not out to get us. Their goal is not to insult everyone, it's to close a part of their own company. The truth is probably not a consolation, but they really became apathetic towards us once they decided to close the game. Just like a relationship you can't force someone to stay with you once they decide to leave. Once the "being sweet" thing doesn't work, shame and brute force never will.
I'm very clear on that, and have voiced the opinion several times - it's not malice on their part, it's pure business, all about the money - we're all basically walking little cartoon moneybags with a nice dollar sign on us, to them.  8)
That being said, people fight with the options they have left to them - it's either that or throw in the towel completely.
And I very much doubt anyone will ask you to participate in anything that you don't believe in, Void.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Codewalker on October 08, 2012, 06:51:41 PM
Now, being INVITED over here, people falsely assume that their input is welcome, only to find out that if it is not identical to the opinions here then they are labeled as a unicorn, or corporate spy, etc.

There has been a bit of that, but to be fair, it's less about what people are saying rather and more about how they're saying it. This isn't directed at you void, but people showing up out of nowhere and posting things like, "You're all wrong, NCSoft has made their decision, give it up you losers!" in a "Save Paragon City!" forum isn't constructive, and they should expect to get jumped on by those who are trying to do just that. A post that started, "I think doing XYZ would be a better approach, here's why:" is much more welcome.

Posts that are obviously inflammatory and confrontational may get deleted. Those are a lot fewer than you might think. I'm more on the technical side myself, so I leave that to the other admins/moderators, but I do keep an eye on the moderation log. There really hasn't been a huge amount, and a chunk of them were a couple of folks with a thin skin and poor communication skills getting frustrated and deleting their own account. *shrug* Can't make everybody happy.

There was a bit of controversy due to the forum settings that allowed a thread starter to edit/delete replies to their thread. That wasn't intentional and those settings have since been corrected.

I'll say that the one thing Tony has done was to set up the filter -- the one and only word filter that we have. You're right that the paranoia was getting out of hand, so he put that in place as a reminder to people posting accusations like that, that maybe they should take a step back and think if they're really sure it's what they wanted to say. That kind of argument is not constructive either, and if the person they're replying too truly is a "unicorn", feeding them is the wrong approach anyway.

Quote
You keep calling CoH "our game", but it isn't, it's theirs. You don't own anything here. They decided to close it, and you can't force them to do anything.

That's exactly that point that we disagree on. Yes, the service belongs to NCSoft. However, the game is much more than that, and is the part that NCSoft owns, plus the collective creative works that all of the players have added to it, plus the community that has grown up around it. They may own the land they're renting us, but the don't own the house that we built on it.

Legally they may be within their rights to kick us off, tear down the house, and give us the pieces of wood, but that doesn't mean it's ethically right of them to do so. And while we can't force them to do anything, we can encourage them to do the right thing, and sell the land for a fair price to someone who will use it for something other than a parking lot.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: QuantumHero on October 08, 2012, 07:00:41 PM
We have never desputed their right to make a business decision (regardless of how wrong-headed and abrupt it appears to be)
e
What we are trying to do is get them to sell, rent, lease, or release the IP.  And yes we are trying to reach them on their own cultural wavelength...and every other "channel" they might be listening on.

We know damn well all possibilities of selling the IP are not exhausted and nor are methods to ensure a more limited survival transition.

Newsflash - a scenario that allows us unmolested operation of private servers is not neccesarilly tied to purchase/lease of the IP for further development. 

MMOs are a developing field with a barely mapped legal landscape...other MMOs have gone down but NcSoft has a particularlly ugly record in this regard, including a rather expensive convinction for fraud.  So if we are considering playing hard ball but hoping not to need it...there is a reason.  What we are not going to do is quit.  We bought disks and paid sub fees, we made artistic contributions to this world, we are a community...so yes we would like to at least *try* to survive on a bloody iceburg or build some lifeboats rather then placidly wait to go down with a ship that they have deiberately chosen to sink with a rather large number of souls on board.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TonyV on October 08, 2012, 07:02:21 PM
You guys have been posting over on the CoH forums for people to come here and participate. This draws attention. When people do come here, it seems at least a few people have seen the unrealistic way of going about things, and have made comments. Now, being INVITED over here, people falsely assume that their input is welcome, only to find out that if it is not identical to the opinions here then they are labeled as a unicorn, or corporate spy, etc.

A few comments about this:

First of all, if someone comes here and says, "I think you're going about this wrong," I might disagree, but that's not shutting them down.  I never promised to agree with everything that everyone says.  But if someone comes here and says, "You can't win, give up," then we really don't need that kind of "participation," because that's not participation.  They're welcome to share memories and keep in touch, but I've always been up-front about the purpose of this particular forum: to save Paragon City.  "Give up!" is about the only thing that I find completely nonconstructive towards that goal.

Second of all, just like on the official forums, you have a very wide range of people, personalities, and opinions here.  Add to that the stress that a lot of people are under, and sometimes things that are a bit on the side of rude or obnoxious will be said.  That doesn't make these rude or obnoxious forums, it makes them public forums.  I have, and will continue, to nix things that I think are particularly insulting, mostly racial insults, but you can't expect to have any kind of open discussion and expect never to have someone say, "You're wrong and kind of dumb for thinking that."  If you look through the posts, you'll see that even I am subjected to that now and then myself, and unless I feel that someone is being particularly trollish, I don't moderate them.

Third of all, if you think that the way we're going about things is unrealistic, I sure would like to know what you would have us do instead.  I'm not being facetious.  I am trying to do the best that I can to drive us towards our ultimate goal, saving City of Heroes.  I gathered everyone together, demonstrated our numbers, provided specific benefits to NCsoft for helping us to save City of Heroes, kept my ear to the rail on things going on behind the scenes, and as NCsoft has dug in deeper, stepped up pressure.  What exactly do you think we should be doing instead?  If the answer is, "give up," then I'll forewarn you that that isn't an option.  If you have a different answer, I'm all ears.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dior on October 08, 2012, 07:05:30 PM
NCSofts Mission Statement made me crease up.

1) Shoot self in foot.
2) Hop around going ow.ow.ow
3) Shoot self in other foot
4) Throw self on sword.

I have never ever seen such a contradictory Mission Statement in my life - EVERYTHING they have done thusfar bears no resemblance to what their statement says.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 08, 2012, 07:08:04 PM
Legally they may be within their rights to kick us off, tear down the house, and give us the pieces of wood, but that doesn't mean it's ethically right of them to do so. And while we can't force them to do anything, we can encourage them to do the right thing, and sell the land for a fair price to someone who will use it for something other than a parking lot.
Actually they are not even doing that, they are kicking us off, then burning down the house and all that is within it. We do not get the opportunity to save what we have built, even if in pieces.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 08, 2012, 07:12:53 PM
Or, to put it in terms of land-grabbing in Texas ('cause that's where the servers are):

NCsoft leased us the mineral rights to the property.  After we built our well, drilled, and hit a deposit, they're now denying us access to the property with the intent of just capping the well.

If only we could set up a mailbox and have our mail delivered there long enough to claim legal ownership of the property...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 08, 2012, 07:15:37 PM
I have yet to see a "tantrum" from Tony, or anything remotely resembling one.
On the contrary, when we all first came together here there were quite a few people advocating much more aggressive actions, similar to the EVE (in game) riots, and possibly ME3's Hold the Line action (not sure how they went about it though, maybe someone can shed some light on that).
It was Tony that told everyone to chill, and to try to reach an understanding based on courtesy and respect.
Which makes it all the more sad that it fell on deaf ears the way that it did.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rae on October 08, 2012, 07:20:53 PM
I just try to remember that we're all here for the same reason. This is a forum called Save Paragon City, and we've all got at least one thing in common. That we're trying to Save Paragon City.

I like being in a place where everyone has got the same destination in mind, even if we're all trying to get there via different routes.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Dollhouse on October 08, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
They shut down a profitable division and then ignored options to offload it. That is mishandling shareholder value. Over and above the game itself, this is not acceptable corporate behavior.

I have to respectfully disagree. Unless I am very much mistaken in my speculation here, the shutdown of Paragon Studios and removal of all CoH IP-related products from the open market was very specifically and deliberately done to destroy the value of those assets.  This action will create a capital loss on NCSoft's balance sheet...and that will act as an offset to the considerable capital gains realized from the GW2 go-live, etc.

That offset is virtually certain to represent several times as much revenue as would sale of the CoH. That's because NCSoft's valuation of the IP will be several times higher than its actual market value (that is, what anyone was actually going to be able to offer for it). The formulae that corporations employ to determine these valuations-for-tax-purposes are complicated...and more than a bit absurd. But corporations have been getting away with these kind of tax shenanigans for decades in the US (where part of NCSoft operates), and I suspect in Korea, as well. It's a choice between probably something like $1 million USD for selling the IP ...and about five times that for the tax offset of removing it from the market as a capital loss (just speculating on those numbers...but the ratio is pretty standard), No competent executive would fail to pick the latter option.

The people who made this decision aren't mishandling shareholder value, they're attempting to protect it. It hasn't worked (although NCSoft stock DID jump up briefly after the announcement). But that's more a matter of the much larger slices of NCSoft's cashflow pie underperforming than it is with anything CoH-related.

Bottom line: it's just a matter of bottom line...and that's why we're very likely fighting a losing battle on the "release the IP" front. Pirate servers and/or Plan Z are our real hope, folks.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Codewalker on October 08, 2012, 07:50:37 PM
(note that these numbers are for example only, they don't represent the real IP value. The proportions should be similar however)

I don't think you're wrong about corporate thinking, but the thing about the numbers is that a tax offset of $5 million doesn't represent $5 million in your pocket. The exact amount depends on how much other income you have, what the tax rate is, and many other factors. So it may only end up being $1m less in taxes that they'd have to pay by writing it off. Even assuming their tax department is completely incompetent and they don't get any other breaks, it would definitely be less than $2m.

So that grossly inflated value of the assets -- which companies definitely do (I had an argument about intangibles with an accounting professor once...) -- may not represent quite as large of a hurdle for selling the IP as it would first seem.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: epawtows on October 08, 2012, 07:53:40 PM

That offset is virtually certain to represent several times as much revenue as would sale of the CoH. That's because NCSoft's valuation of the IP will be several times higher than its actual market value (that is, what anyone was actually going to be able to offer for it). The formulae that corporations employ to determine these valuations-for-tax-purposes are complicated...and more than a bit absurd. But corporations have been getting away with these kind of tax shenanigans for decades in the US (where part of NCSoft operates), and I suspect in Korea, as well. It's a choice between probably something like $1 million USD for selling the IP ...and about five times that for the tax offset of removing it from the market as a capital loss (just speculating on those numbers...but the ratio is pretty standard), No competent executive would fail to pick the latter option.


Could we play a waiting game with them?  I.E;  form Titan Studios (or whatever) and start working on Plan Z, and in six months to a year make an offer for CoH's by-then-long-dead carcass?  We could use the argument "Look at how much progress we're making on our game;  if we finish, the CoH IP will be completely worthless, why not sell it while you can still get something for it?"   And then we figure out if we want to restart it (which may or may not be technically feasible, depending on how documented the code is and if any of the Devs can be found), re-work Plan Z into CoH2, or whatever.  Not that it's possible to call something like this a 'plan', because there is no way to know in advance if they'll sell.

 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 08:00:36 PM
Remember a couple weeks ago when we heard there were "sticky issues" that were being hammered out? I suspect many of them had little to nothing to do with actual amounts of money changing hands. Things having to do primarily with the bureaucratic entanglements that have to be unwound to separate a sub-company from its parent may simply have been more than NCSoft was willing to do due to feeling it was too much effort for too little gain.

IF that is the case, THEN our efforts to make NOT doing it painful can have at least no smaller a chance of working than we ever felt we had.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on October 08, 2012, 08:09:43 PM
On the contrary, when we all first came together here there were quite a few people advocating much more aggressive actions, similar to the EVE (in game) riots, and possibly ME3's Hold the Line action (not sure how they went about it though, maybe someone can shed some light on that).
It was Tony that told everyone to chill, and to try to reach an understanding based on courtesy and respect.
Which makes it all the more sad that it fell on deaf ears the way that it did.
Exactly!

Have I seen "tantrums" from other posters here? Yes. It is a public message forum after all.

From Tony? Never.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: laufeyjarson on October 08, 2012, 08:16:40 PM
(note that these numbers are for example only, they don't represent the real IP value. The proportions should be similar however)

I don't think you're wrong about corporate thinking, but the thing about the numbers is that a tax offset of $5 million doesn't represent $5 million in your pocket. The exact amount depends on how much other income you have, what the tax rate is, and many other factors. So it may only end up being $1m less in taxes that they'd have to pay by writing it off. Even assuming their tax department is completely incompetent and they don't get any other breaks, it would definitely be less than $2m.

So that grossly inflated value of the assets -- which companies definitely do (I had an argument about intangibles with an accounting professor once...) -- may not represent quite as large of a hurdle for selling the IP as it would first seem.

The OP also assumed US Tax law, which may not apply.  Korean tax law may be significantly different.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Mister Bison on October 08, 2012, 08:17:26 PM
The OP also assumed US Tax law, which may not apply.  Korean tax law may be significantly different.
De wo actually which subsidiary owns the IP ?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Dollhouse on October 08, 2012, 09:11:40 PM
The OP also assumed US Tax law, which may not apply.  Korean tax law may be significantly different.

If by "OP" you're referring to the author of the post to which Codewalker replied, that would be me...and no I didn't. In fact, I specifically referred to the US subsidiary, then mentioned that it was just my suspicion that Korean corporate tax laws allowed similar valuation shenanigans.

Codewalker brings up the significant point that the net gain via capital loss offset isn't the full amount of that valuation. though. That's an important consideration, and may indicate why NCSoft was bothering any negotiation at all. If they can only get away with a valuation that will produce an actual net monetary gain at or slightly larger than the IP's value, then they'd have been receptive. Or at least negotiating in good faith...  the fact that the negotiations failed tells me that one reason may well be that they can indeed get away with an asset valuation for capital loss that significantly exceeds the actual market value of the IP.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Manga on October 08, 2012, 09:33:55 PM
Void Hunter,

The issue that is upsetting TonyV, and me, and many others about NCSoft's behavior is that they are not even acknowledging our presence.  We're making serious, well thought of business offers, and to NCSoft so far, we may as well be invisible.  Same goes for other companies making serious offers - they may as well be invisible, too.

And then we have some people who say NCSoft has the right to shut down CoH, and do so in peace without anyone so much as speaking to them about it.  That the only option is we should shut up and accept it.  Or that by speaking up, we're somehow tarnishing your reputation as a gamer or as an American.

To those people, with all due respect, I say, YOU shaddup.  You're not helping, nobody cares about devil's advocate posts, and this isn't about YOU.  I am still willing to try to negotiate with NCSoft, and I have as much right to do so as they do to quietly shut down CoH.  If they ignore me, this is important enough that I have the right to do anything I can to get their attention.  I've had enough of quietly watching bad things happen, so if you want to try and stop me, go ahead.  I won't make it easy for you.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Colette on October 08, 2012, 10:21:47 PM
While NC-Soft does have the legal right to shut off the game, the way they have handled it has been inexcusable.

1. They shut down the systems to subscribe and to buy points without prior notice.
2. They presented "issue 24" on coming attractions and the Beta server, thus convincing the playerbase that the game's immediate future was secure and their subscription investment safe.
3. They announced the closure less than a week after a new powerset "Nature Mastery" was put up for sale with great fanfare.

NC-Soft has acted in bad faith.

Now we, the playerbase, have no legal recourse against them for these shenanigans. However we, as a community, do have the right to say that we no longer feel the standard MMO contract is equitable. I, for example, enjoy various classic videogames, and the price I paid years ago continues to pay off. Heck, one of them (X-Com!) has a sequel coming out this very month.

I've spent much more for CoH than any other game, and once the servers shut down, I won't even be able to toy with the costume creator. I now plan to not spend money on any future MMO ever, with the exception of CoH-2. And I intend to tell everyone in the gamng community how I feel about MMOs as a business model, and particularly NC-Soft. And there are just over 20,000 gamers who agree with me. And counting.

So in a real sense, NC-Soft is not merely jeopardizing its own future, but the future of the entire genre.

The majority opinion in this gaming community may be summed up neatly as: f___ this s___! And we have every reason to believe anyone who posts directly contrary opinions here are troublemakers who need to be ignored and run off.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 10:44:12 PM
Forever? No. But generally speaking, one expects these sorts of things to venture into metaphorical old age, where they become doddering, fondly tended to by a dwindling number of family members as the rest move on, until it no longer can sustain itself and the bittersweet "it was fun while it lasted, thanks everybody" closing is understandable to all and not objected to by quite so huge a number of still-avid fans.

Also, if the COMPANY has been planning ahead, it may well be that it ends...but only as "CoH2" or the like replaces it. The next generation replacing the last. Evolution into new things.

It's the suddenness and the fact that this game is still vibrant and ALIVE that's so shocking.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Ironbull on October 08, 2012, 10:44:35 PM
In my own opinion, NC Soft is taking the position so many other publishers, studios, and gaming industry bullies take when they want something.  "It's mine, you can't have it."  As good as it sounds to sell, some people would rather it go down in flames then to see a single customer ripped away from their precious GW2 or other games.  Or forget the fact that someone else may be able to make a bigger better profit on something they let go of.  How many great games have either not seen sequels, or fallen into a black hole because a studio/publisher hangs on to the rights even after going bankrupt?  If NC Soft was "truthful" in stating they would listen to "reasonable" offers, why not put out a number?  Maybe they have done this, maybe not.  I may not be a business minded person, but even I know if you have an interested party, you throw out an initial offer to start negotiations.  Otherwise, your not really interested in selling, your just trying to drum roll please...  Save face and make it look good.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 08, 2012, 11:03:03 PM
My apologies, cmgangrel; my intent was to be graphic, but no to strike anybody's personal sore spots. I have edited my post.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 08, 2012, 11:51:29 PM
I think everyone should take a step back and take a deep breath.  The main goal here is to save a game that we love.  After reading through the posts for the most part both sides are making valid points and the more we fight about it the more people are going to get mad or hurt.  We all feel differently and have different reasons to be here but none of us have the right to tell others how to feel.  I personally think this thread should be locked so the conversation stops and people can go cool off.  This is not productive in any way and we are just losing support and hurting feelings. If someone doesn't feel the same way as you chances are nothing you say will change their mind and will most likely tick them off, just simply express your constructive opinion on that of the subject and not on that of the person, and than we all have to agree to be adults and not mock or belittle peoples opinions even if they don't agree with you.  I know tempers are high and people have a lot to say but please lets all just be the bigger men (and women of course) and put our problems aside.  We can go back to disagreeing with each other after Nov. 30th.   No one here is entirely sure what to do because of the huge lack of information we have (or have not?) been given and everyone is upset to loose their game even if they do or don't feel it should be fought for or is even realistic to be fought for.  Lets all go back to 2nd grade for a second.  Treat others the way you want to be treated.  And If you don't have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.

This applies to everyone including me, you can't expect someone to change their attitude if you aren't willing to change your own.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: HEATSTROKE on October 09, 2012, 12:04:13 AM
 I hope that something changes in the next month and maybe once the contracts are up there can be some open dialogue between the devs and the community to find out where we go from here. While I hope for the best I dont see NC Soft being reasonable at all.

 I think what was done to Paragon Studios was absolutely terrible and Nc Soft obviously doesnt care about its customers some of us who have been loyal since the very beginning. In all honesty I am insulted by their comments that they tried everything to sell the IP which we know is an complete and absolute lie..
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 12:08:53 AM
Ah those Verbal Abusers.  They are so good at sounding reasonable and making you doubt your own sanity.  Of course, they have made this their lifetime goal, so there's a good reason why they can do that.  Just take a deep breath, go down the list, and make sure they are still ticking off all the points, and remind yourself that their goals are to make you do what they want, acknowledge their "superiority" without ever giving you any verification for that "superiority" and to make you feel abased and degraded while doing so.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 12:28:35 AM
Pff. I rarely if ever doubt my sanity. My reason, occasionally, but more often then not, re-examination finds my reason to be intact. This tends to drive me nuts, though, when I can't figure out why somebody is disagreeing with me. Fortunately, this is not a problem Iv'e had on this forum yet! So I don't go crazy here. Except for the work I've put on myself with the media day, but that's my own doing. (And thanks to EVERYBODY who's helping out with it! I am more pleased than you can imagine at just how well it's looking so far. Lots left to do, but we're moving along!)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 09, 2012, 12:33:43 AM
I'm not sayin' I doubt anyone's sanity, here, but what we're trying to do is a little crazy...

<nonchalantly sips mojito>

Anyone want ona these?  I have a whole bag of limes.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 09, 2012, 12:34:36 AM
Ah those Verbal Abusers.  They are so good at sounding reasonable and making you doubt your own sanity.  Of course, they have made this their lifetime goal, so there's a good reason why they can do that.  Just take a deep breath, go down the list, and make sure they are still ticking off all the points, and remind yourself that their goals are to make you do what they want, acknowledge their "superiority" without ever giving you any verification for that "superiority" and to make you feel abased and degraded while doing so.

...san...i...ty?

/me gives VV a blank stare
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 12:35:29 AM
*holds up some mountain dew in salute to dwturducken* I'm good, but thanks!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 09, 2012, 03:59:21 AM
Seeing things that are disturbing to sanity are easier to deal with when you already know that you're bat **** insane. I have tea with Cthulhu every night, and I play a game of destroy the universe with Nyarlathotep every Wednesday.

The thing that is unconscionable about NCSoft's behavior here is not their strict adherence to killing the game. Somebody on the forum posted about what would be a proper way to end an MMO - "it doesn't align with our corporate interests anymore, so we are going to stop running it. We will sell it if anybody gives us a reasonable offer, but until then our plans are to sunset it. If the reasonable offer does not come until after the sun has set, then the sale can still be made, and the sun may rise again." But NCSoft has given us no indication that they would consider selling the IP after the sunset than before...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: sevda on October 09, 2012, 04:22:17 AM
Ah those Verbal Abusers.  They are so good at sounding reasonable and making you doubt your own sanity.  Of course, they have made this their lifetime goal, so there's a good reason why they can do that.  Just take a deep breath, go down the list, and make sure they are still ticking off all the points, and remind yourself that their goals are to make you do what they want, acknowledge their "superiority" without ever giving you any verification for that "superiority" and to make you feel abased and degraded while doing so.


Wow...I am completely flabbergasted by this post. I'd read the earlier one commenting on these posts of yours, calling people who disagree with you "abusers" but I didn't bother to go back to check for myself. I just figured maybe they misunderstood. I didn't know enough about you, Mercedes, to have much respect for you, but what may have been there is totally gone.

Someone was so lacking in tact that they made an over the top, extremely graphic and ridiculous pseudo-comparison without taking the time to think that maybe, just maybe someone here had a similar experience and you call that hurt person a "Verbal Abuser"?

How about this, then. I take offense to that connotation because I myself have been abused in the past. Physically, psychologically, verbally, sexually abused by a person when I was barely out of my teens. Tossing out the word "abuser" is not something to be done lightly by any stretch of the imagination. Especially when there are those of us around here who have lived through it and know abuse for what it truly is, who know the evil that it truly is.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 04:30:32 AM

Wow...I am completely flabbergasted by this post. I'd read the earlier one commenting on these posts of yours, calling people who disagree with you "abusers" but I didn't bother to go back to check for myself. I just figured maybe they misunderstood. I didn't know enough about you, Mercedes, to have much respect for you, but what may have been there is totally gone.

Someone was so lacking in tact that they made an over the top, extremely graphic and ridiculous pseudo-comparison without taking the time to think that maybe, just maybe someone here had a similar experience and you call that hurt person a "Verbal Abuser"?

How about this, then. I take offense to that connotation because I myself have been abused in the past. Physically, psychologically, verbally, sexually abused by a person when I was barely out of my teens. Tossing out the word "abuser" is not something to be done lightly by any stretch of the imagination. Especially when there are those of us around here who have lived through it and know abuse for what it truly is, who know the evil that it truly is.

You are perfectly entitled to your own opinion of course.  But Verbal Abuse is a well known and insidious form of abuse, just as damaging as physical abuse and a lot harder to counter because it leaves no outward signs.  I have plenty of personal and intense experience with Verbal Abusers, both the aggressive and passive versions, and there are plenty of respected psychologists and counselors out there whose works on the subject I respect.  I do not just toss out the term, lightly or otherwise.  And I don't call someone a Verbal Abuser until they've proven themselves as such, and not just with one post, but with a series of incidents.  I would also add that you have no idea what went on behind the scenes of the boards in PMs.

I think you might have mistaken my post for something that occurred immediately upstream in this thread.  It was a reaction to something that was posted several pages earlier than that.  It involved someone who was clearly attempting to browbeat and castigate TonyV, was, based on other entries by the same person (many deleted by mods) and PMs to me personally, entirely deserving of the title.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Ichaerus on October 09, 2012, 05:08:41 AM
     Bear with me, as I'm very new to the Titan Network here(I think I've made fewer posts than a person has fingers on their hand).  First, what is this umm...."unicorn" thing?  Is it a stab at My Little Pony media, or the majestic fantasy creature? 
     Second, wouldn't it be more productive to push away/ignore the negativity that has tended to crop up in here?  It appears the negative does what NCSoft wants, which is to distract/derail us, as we then divert energy/time towards those who go out of their way to act as obstacles.  Our time and resources are limited as it is with the looming spectre hovering. 
     Please, focus on what's needing to be done, unite on the front vs NCSoft, in a good way, whether that's using trial accounts for NCSoft games to let people in the other games know what's going on, tap into contacts that might help in any way, or using the game in creative ways to get the message out.  For example, I've been playing CoH, creating avatars of my friends know that a whole world is under siege.  And sending them screenshots via Facebook and email to show them the beauty that is in a fight for survival.  Letting them know that it's not just a game, but a cause worth fighting for.
     We've already bloodied NCSoft's nose in this fight, and they belted us with a low blow by sending that weak, limp-wristed, half-assed letter on October 2nd.  It's up to us to reach down inside, and get up off the canvas before the 10 count.  But we need to do it together.  Not just heroes, but rogues, vigilantes, villains, Praetorians both Loyalist and Resistance.
*shuffles off to log into CoH, Klendathu Drop playing in the background*
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 09, 2012, 05:12:00 AM
You are perfectly entitled to your own opinion of course.  But Verbal Abuse is a well known and insidious form of abuse, just as damaging as physical abuse and a lot harder to counter because it leaves no outward signs.  I have plenty of personal and intense experience with Verbal Abusers, both the aggressive and passive versions, and there are plenty of respected psychologists and counselors out there whose works on the subject I respect.  I do not just toss out the term, lightly or otherwise.  And I don't call someone a Verbal Abuser until they've proven themselves as such, and not just with one post, but with a series of incidents.  I would also add that you have no idea what went on behind the scenes of the boards in PMs.

I think you might have mistaken my post for something that occurred immediately upstream in this thread.  It was a reaction to something that was posted several pages earlier than that.  It involved someone who was clearly attempting to browbeat and castigate TonyV, was, based on other entries by the same person (many deleted by mods) and PMs to me personally, entirely deserving of the title.

OK, I'm not the only one who felt like s/he was missing something.  Thank you for clearing that up, and I'm sorry that it happened.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 09, 2012, 05:29:48 AM
  But Verbal Abuse is a well known and insidious form of abuse, just as damaging as physical abuse and a lot harder to counter because it leaves no outward signs.

Yes, yes it is.  I lived with one (family member) for a long time.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 09, 2012, 05:36:35 AM
     Bear with me, as I'm very new to the Titan Network here(I think I've made fewer posts than a person has fingers on their hand).  First, what is this umm...."unicorn" thing?  Is it a stab at My Little Pony media, or the majestic fantasy creature? 
It's a profanity filter set up for the word used to describe people hyped up on Supradyne.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 09, 2012, 06:47:01 AM
I was wondering what Unicorn meant as well lol.

I posted this earlier but it didn't have the effect I had hoped.  Below is the posted message

"I think everyone should take a step back and take a deep breath.  The main goal here is to save a game that we love.  After reading through the posts for the most part both sides are making valid points and the more we fight about it the more people are going to get mad or hurt.  We all feel differently and have different reasons to be here but none of us have the right to tell others how to feel.  I personally think this thread should be locked so the conversation stops and people can go cool off.  This is not productive in any way and we are just losing support and hurting feelings. If someone doesn't feel the same way as you chances are nothing you say will change their mind and will most likely tick them off, just simply express your constructive opinion on that of the subject and not on that of the person, and than we all have to agree to be adults and not mock or belittle peoples opinions even if they don't agree with you.  I know tempers are high and people have a lot to say but please lets all just be the bigger men (and women of course) and put our problems aside.  We can go back to disagreeing with each other after Nov. 30th.   No one here is entirely sure what to do because of the huge lack of information we have (or have not?) been given and everyone is upset to loose their game even if they do or don't feel it should be fought for or is even realistic to be fought for.  Lets all go back to 2nd grade for a second.  Treat others the way you want to be treated.  And If you don't have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all.

This applies to everyone including me, you can't expect someone to change their attitude if you aren't willing to change your own."


I truly ask everyone to consider doing this.  It seems to have simmered down but people are still at each others throats.  Everyone wants the last word so bad but please I implore all of us to just be the bigger person and let bygones be bygones.  I was truly proud to see such a community of people come together and fight for something they love but with bad news comes bad attitudes, and now that community is splitting.  Put your differences aside and try to ignore the insults and better yet STOP THE INSULTS.  We have lots of things that push us apart but we all have one thing in common that should bring us together.  To save City of Heroes.  Please try to remember why we are here.  Your differences will be here later, the game might not be.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Floride on October 09, 2012, 07:31:54 AM
Lots of discussion here on this thread, very little of it being ways to Save Our City, so I'm gonna switch gears for us here and use this particular thread "as intended".

I have stated in earlier posts that NCSoft is ignoring us for a very good reason, we haven't been speaking their language - money. We need to put our money where our mouths are, or they will continue to ignore us, of this I am certain.
So here is another suggestion I have to Save Our City:

Get word out to all VIPs to mail NCSoft the $15 per month for all the months NC is letting us play for free. You know that you were gonna pay it anyways before the anouncement, so be a responsible adult, lead by example, and pony up. When thousands of certified envelopes containing MONEY (remember, NCSoft is all about the money) flood their offices, they will, at minimun, recognize our existence. At maximum, need to explain to their investors where they're going to put all the money they're making from the game they killed for not making money.

I was raised to do the right thing regardless of what others do. I'm still enjoying the game with my friends just as I would have had I paid as I had intended to do. I think we should pay for our time on their servers. And it would serve them right to earn money for what they may be expecting a huge loss/tax write-off for.

There. I said it. Feel free to tell me it's a dumb idea. Feel even freer to improve on it  :D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 09, 2012, 07:48:17 AM
Pretty sure there's better ways to use our money.  Like that idea to ship them socks.

Not to mention, sending them money would feel too much like rewarding them for closing the game down.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Floride on October 09, 2012, 08:30:22 AM
Pretty sure there's better ways to use our money.  Like that idea to ship them socks.

Not to mention, sending them money would feel too much like rewarding them for closing the game down.
The difference is they won't just throw checks in a box and haul them to the company dumpsters. May even effect their stock price.
And if you've logged in since the anouncment to shut down, you had to click "I Agree" to the EULA that says you will pay for your time in Paragon. Holding up your end of a EULA isn't exactly "reward"ing them.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: ukaserex on October 09, 2012, 09:09:55 AM
Very interesting. Suppose we send them 15 bucks for the month of December....if they are foolish enough to cash the check...
I'm no attorney, but my old business law class said that cashing a check in those circumstances would obligate them.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 09:17:13 AM
My gut instinct says they will return or destroy the checks.  Possibly cash them, deduct the postage required to send them back, and send that amount back. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 09, 2012, 10:06:13 AM
My gut instinct says they will return or destroy the checks.  Possibly cash them, deduct the postage required to send them back, and send that amount back.

I think its a cool idea and would even be willing to give it a shot with you Floride.  But I have feeling they will just do as stated above by VV.  I don't have any legal training so my input is nothing more than speculation but I feel their legal team would just advise them to return the money.  If we do go through with it we should send letters with the money.  Probably wont make much of a difference but at least they have to unfold the letter for the check to fall out.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Clave Dark 5 on October 09, 2012, 11:09:10 AM
NCSoft knowingly sacrificed the CoH revenue stream when they cancelled the game, that would have been something factored in before they chose to do so.  Seems a bit silly to think otherwise or that waving a portion of said stream at them after they've made up their minds would change them.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Manga on October 09, 2012, 02:01:58 PM
Very interesting. Suppose we send them 15 bucks for the month of December....if they are foolish enough to cash the check...
I'm no attorney, but my old business law class said that cashing a check in those circumstances would obligate them.

Sounds like a good way to end up with a subscription credit toward Blade & Soul.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 02:04:16 PM
Sounds like a good way to end up with a subscription credit toward Blade & Soul.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: StarRanger4 on October 09, 2012, 02:44:07 PM
But I have feeling they will just do as stated above by VV.  I don't have any legal training so my input is nothing more than speculation but I feel their legal team would just advise them to return the money. 

Thirded. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Nafaustu on October 09, 2012, 03:39:33 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

ROFL...thank you, Moonfyire I needed that.

Also, I love all of your guys, whether I disagree with you or not.   I feel like most of the 'garbage brawl' in this thread could be resolved by a good, solid "READ THIS FIRST: MISSION STATEMENT" post.    We should make a seperate thread to draft if down to a mission statement, and that way we could have a timeline of 'things we've already tried' so the new people (and welcome, new people!) know where we are coming from and what we've already tried.

TonyV is the one who authored the "NCSoft is not our enemy" thread, and there are a lot of people don't know that.   Its like walking into the middle of an 'in' conversation (or maybe the way people look at gamers in resturants :D).   You have no idea what is going on, and a lot of what you hear is potentially offensive out of context. :)

So what do you think, should be start a "Where we've been/Mission statement" thread?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 03:46:19 PM
ROFL...thank you, Moonfyire I needed that.

Also, I love all of your guys, whether I disagree with you or not.   I feel like most of the 'garbage brawl' in this thread could be resolved by a good, solid "READ THIS FIRST: MISSION STATEMENT" post.    We should make a seperate thread to draft if down to a mission statement, and that way we could have a timeline of 'things we've already tried' so the new people (and welcome, new people!) know where we are coming from and what we've already tried.

TonyV is the one who authored the "NCSoft is not our enemy" thread, and there are a lot of people don't know that.   Its like walking into the middle of an 'in' conversation (or maybe the way people look at gamers in resturants :D).   You have no idea what is going on, and a lot of what you hear is potentially offensive out of context. :)

So what do you think, should be start a "Where we've been/Mission statement" thread?

yes, that would be helpful especially if it had links to the corresponding threads.

And thank you i aim to please :P
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 09, 2012, 03:59:15 PM
TonyV is the one who authored the "NCSoft is not our enemy" thread, and there are a lot of people don't know that.   Its like walking into the middle of an 'in' conversation (or maybe the way people look at gamers in resturants :D).   You have no idea what is going on, and a lot of what you hear is potentially offensive out of context. :)

I think that the problem is that a lot of us perceive that NCSoft has become our enemy, even though this was not always the case. It is clear right now that NCSoft does not want to sell the IP, or they would have done so. We need to convince them that they're in for some pain of they don't.

Still, being friendly, respectful, and forthright is essential from our prospective, because our war on NCSoft consists of getting the media and the market to put so much pressure on the company that they will do something that will allow the game to continue. If we are seen slinging mud at NCSoft, then our PR campaign will be a lot less successful.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 09, 2012, 04:11:03 PM
I think that the problem is that a lot of us perceive that NCSoft has become our enemy, even though this was not always the case. It is clear right now that NCSoft does not want to sell the IP, or they would have done so. We need to convince them that they're in for some pain of they don't.

Still, being friendly, respectful, and forthright is essential from our prospective, because our war on NCSoft consists of getting the media and the market to put so much pressure on the company that they will do something that will allow the game to continue. If we are seen slinging mud at NCSoft, then our PR campaign will be a lot less successful.

I agree.  I wouldn't count NCsoft among my friends, but getting trigger happy isn't going to help either.  Their motives are... confusing, at best.  Until they are exposed as the root of all evil, which many suspect them to be, we should probably remain civil and cordial.  But hey, the fighters up and around here may get their chance.  I do hope it doesn't come to that, though.
Title: That Darned FrankTurk
Post by: FrankTurk on October 09, 2012, 04:44:38 PM
someone like Frank shows up and tells me that I'm the only one who's complaining, and I should just shut up and do what I'm told.

It would be awesome to see where FrankTurk said that.  I think he instead said that it would be better to do constructive things rather than string out our hopes -- but if FrankTurk said, "shut up," or anything like that, it would be good to see where he said that.
Title: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: FrankTurk on October 09, 2012, 04:47:06 PM
Let me phrase it for you so you can understand it.

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROACTIVE, ACTIONABLE, REAL SUGGESTIONS?

It's a short list: play the game as if you loved it like you say you love it.  Anything else short of $50 million in cash is the real-world equivalent of CAPS LOCK ARGUMENTATION. 
Title: Re: Just stop already
Post by: FrankTurk on October 09, 2012, 05:01:18 PM
Oh, no you did not!
Common stock usually carries with it the right to vote on certain matters, such as electing the board of directors.
Korea may, of course, do things differently.

 As I mentioned - the issue has to come up for vote - that issue could be whether or not that boardmember should remain a boardmember. If there were a commonality amongst a collection of seperate shareholders, they could make their wishes known to the board, and even at the next election, elect one of their own - if they have enough votes.

Maybe you should have spent a little more time in Atlas Park.

Perhaps you're one of those.....

I'll play along just to see how this turns out for you, ukaserex: can you document any time in the last 50 years in which the shareholders voted on a matter in which the publicly-traded company made a decision impacting less than 5% of it revenue and less than 2% of its profits? 

I'd love to see it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Arctic Force. on October 09, 2012, 05:08:45 PM
Frank why are you so negative? People are just trying to come up with solutions, they may be the wrong path. But I have yet to see you throw out some constructive ideas to help the situation. Why are you here if you are not on board to help?
Title: Re: Just stop already
Post by: downix on October 09, 2012, 05:11:23 PM
I'll play along just to see how this turns out for you, ukaserex: can you document any time in the last 50 years in which the shareholders voted on a matter in which the publicly-traded company made a decision impacting less than 5% of it revenue and less than 2% of its profits? 

I'd love to see it.
Commodore 1983 - successfully ousted the CEO after he made the decision to close down the LCD division, less than 0.5% of its profits and 2% of revenue.
Title: Re: Just stop already
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 09, 2012, 05:16:00 PM
Commodore 1983 - successfully ousted the CEO after he made the decision to close down the LCD division, less than 0.5% of its profits and 2% of revenue.

Although I get the impression that CEOs have a stronger hold on their companies now. They act more like owners. At least that's the impression I get given how many CEOs effectively destroy their companies and take their companies' money.


The real tragedy, I guess would be if Mr. Kim does this to NCSoft - if there was nothing evil or anything about the company itself, and most of them wanted to save CoH just as much as Paragon do, but their CEO naysaid it so that he could take all the money for himself.

I hope Mr. Kim is only peripherally involved in this, personally. I hope he's not as evil as some American executives. Still, it has me worry.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 09, 2012, 05:16:02 PM
It's a short list: play the game as if you loved it like you say you love it.  Anything else short of $50 million in cash is the real-world equivalent of CAPS LOCK ARGUMENTATION.

Yes, I'm sure every group of fans who kept a TV show going after a planned cancellation had $50 mil to send to the studio.  :roll:
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 05:18:18 PM
Yes, I'm sure every group of fans who kept a TV show going after a planned cancellation had $50 mil to send to the studio.  :roll:
rofl, no need to say anymore
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: gypsyav on October 09, 2012, 05:20:06 PM
It's a short list: play the game as if you loved it like you say you love it.  Anything else short of $50 million in cash is the real-world equivalent of CAPS LOCK ARGUMENTATION.

I am really tired of seeing this in not only this thread but in every area of life. We give our money to corporations. Without us they wouldn't exist in the first place. And yet when they do something a good portion of their customers disagree with and those customers voice their disagreement a bunch of people with your attitude show up and say it's their company and if you don't have the money to buy them out don't complain and just be grateful for what they are giving you.

So how do you stop these corporations from raking you over the coals? For me this fight isn't just over City of Heroes.

When I was a kid my grandfather owned a pet store where I worked when I got older. One of the things stressed was making the customer happy so they would return and tell others what a great place it was to do business. This was 30 years ago. Now corporations are so big they don't care if they upset their customers. There are always more people out there like you who won't speak out against the wrongs done. We need to change that perception and get back to where the customer is the most important piece of the puzzle.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 05:30:22 PM
I am really tired of seeing this in not only this thread but in every area of life. We give our money to corporations. Without us they wouldn't exist in the first place. And yet when they do something a good portion of their customers disagree with and those customers voice their disagreement a bunch of people with your attitude show up and say it's their company and if you don't have the money to buy them out don't complain and just be grateful for what they are giving you.

So how do you stop these corporations from raking you over the coals? For me this fight isn't just over City of Heroes.

When I was a kid my grandfather owned a pet store where I worked when I got older. One of the things stressed was making the customer happy so they would return and tell others what a great place it was to do business. This was 30 years ago. Now corporations are so big they don't care if they upset their customers. There are always more people out there like you who won't speak out against the wrongs done. We need to change that perception and get back to where the customer is the most important piece of the puzzle.

Exactly, you can't have a business without customers. I ran a petstore also (reptiles mostly) and believe me if i went around pissing everyone off we would have went out of business. You need your customers, without them you are nothing.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 09, 2012, 05:33:56 PM
When I was a kid my grandfather owned a pet store where I worked when I got older. One of the things stressed was making the customer happy so they would return and tell others what a great place it was to do business. This was 30 years ago. Now corporations are so big they don't care if they upset their customers. There are always more people out there like you who won't speak out against the wrongs done. We need to change that perception and get back to where the customer is the most important piece of the puzzle.

This is one of my big pet peeves of the modern system. Globalization practically murdered the conceptual 'invisible hand' that used to regulate the economy.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 05:40:49 PM
Not really. It just made the "invisible hand" have to learn to also globalize. See: what we're doing.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Codewalker on October 09, 2012, 05:43:10 PM
This just in: Your house represents less than 5% of the tax revenue of your city and less than 2% of its profits.

Bulldozers will be arriving shortly to pave it over and build a shopping mall.

Please lie down quietly and wait for them to arrive. Your cooperation is appreciated, citizen.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Nafaustu on October 09, 2012, 05:44:06 PM
I ... am here to save City of Heroes.   

I will not be receptive to 'suck it up and play it until its down, then get over it unless you've got Scrooge McDuck's vault and the ear of a higher power.' (<---THIS is not aimed at anyone, its satire and exageration of general negativity ALL over the forum!   Please do not become personally offended.)  There is a place for that, but this forum is not that place.   

And I am going to once again propose that we should have a Read This First/Mission Statement that makes it clear that, while all opinions are valid, this is not the place for anything save productive discourse on how to work together to save the game.   

We recognize that we don't have 11th bajillion monies to throw at NCSoft and even if we did it might not matter.   This discussion has been done in dozens of threads both new and old since the announcement.   

We would like to do things we can do to help facilitate the continuation of our community and the family friendly game that we find to be a unique, important peice of artwork, up to and including continuing to play the game.

The value of one person's actions are inconsequential in the grander scheme of things.   A total victory is highly improbable.  But this isn't about one person.   And, at least for me, its not just about City of Heroes anymore.   This could happen to any community.   Its not right.

Can I stop it?   Probably not.   Can I force NCSoft to act in another way?  No.   Can I make a case and know I did my best?   Absolutely.   Can I make enough noise to cause other publishers from thinking that they can roughshod over paying customers in all facets of games?   By myself, not a chance.

But i'm not by myself.   And I'm going to try.

Thats my two cents.   And as an aside, I agree with previous posters.   This thread is toxic and it should probably be locked.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 05:48:37 PM
Nafaustu, I think a "read this first" thread is a brilliant idea, and, as the originator of said idea, you should take first crack at it. Don't be afraid to ask for help with it if you doubt your own ability to "do it right," but take the first step and make the thread and include in the OP all you do already know. Others will jump in and help, and you can edit the OP until it's a polished jewel.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: void hunter on October 09, 2012, 05:49:18 PM
You are perfectly entitled to your own opinion of course.  But Verbal Abuse is a well known and insidious form of abuse, just as damaging as physical abuse and a lot harder to counter because it leaves no outward signs.  I have plenty of personal and intense experience with Verbal Abusers, both the aggressive and passive versions, and there are plenty of respected psychologists and counselors out there whose works on the subject I respect.  I do not just toss out the term, lightly or otherwise.  And I don't call someone a Verbal Abuser until they've proven themselves as such, and not just with one post, but with a series of incidents.  I would also add that you have no idea what went on behind the scenes of the boards in PMs.

I think you might have mistaken my post for something that occurred immediately upstream in this thread.  It was a reaction to something that was posted several pages earlier than that.  It involved someone who was clearly attempting to browbeat and castigate TonyV, was, based on other entries by the same person (many deleted by mods) and PMs to me personally, entirely deserving of the title.

Being the person this is aimed at, I'll be happy to either forward this private exchange or post it so everyone can see how "abusive" I've been. The reason why the "pessimists" are having trouble offering positive solutions is because in truth, we are unable to force NCSoft's hand on this. This is their property, and we can't legally or forcefully take it from them. The fans of "Firefly" convinced the studio to try again, but they didn't get the rights to anything. I also haven't seen the numbers they had, does anyone know if they were comparable, fewer, greater?

While I was all for some kind of movement to get things going (the reason I came here in the first place), what I saw being discussed alarmed me and honestly made me concerned that not only would the efforts not work, but many of the tactics being discussed might have actually interfered with more sincere and plausible attempts. I also witnessed things that were let's just say inappropriate, and tried to speak out against such actions or viewpoints.

Not once have I really ever made personal attacks on anyone here. Saying someone is acting in a way that's not appropriate is not the same thing as calling them names. What did my comments get me? People made derogatory comments about me on a personal level (VV for instance).

FrankTurk didn't get into name calling either, but people sure are projecting that behavior onto him, Most of his posts have been articulate and reasonable. If someone says this path leads to a bad place, regardless of how they say it, they're going to be met with almost violent opposition. Well, what if they are right? What if it's obvious to someone who isn't emotionally charged that taking certain roads will not only be unsuccessful, but will close the door for other roads which may have had a better chance of succeeding?

While I don't think the magic number is $50 million, I see the amount needing to be more than what they would get as a loss from their deductions. I also see the purchaser needing to be willing to assume all liability and to hold NCSoft harmless from any claims of liability. Being someone who has purchased a business, I can tell you this is standard operating procedure for doing this.

So how do you stop these corporations from raking you over the coals? For me this fight isn't just over City of Heroes.

Simple, you don't give them the ability in the first place by refraining from doing business with them. Either that or you lawyer up and sue them after they do something wrong. The problem here is legally they didn't do anything that would have consequences. This is one of those things that sucks, but unless we find out that something illegal happened, then we can't do anything about it. The only recourse is to try to permanently damage their reputation (which people already started honestly), but this really should only be considered if you're willing to burn the bridge and don't want anything from them.

If you guys don't believe me or the others who have spoken up, fine. Go talk to businessmen that aren't attached to this. Go talk with a lawyer. Go talk with another software company and see what it would take for their customers to force them to do something they decided against doing. You have the power to make waves, but you can't control what the waves will do. Tony has done a decent job at trying to contain as much as he can, but in reality it wasn't really us that had the shot, it was Paragon.

Once more, if anyone sees what I'm saying as being abusive, go ahead and speak up. Look at what I'm saying, not what you want to take offense to.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: void hunter on October 09, 2012, 05:51:24 PM
Exactly, you can't have a business without customers. I ran a petstore also (reptiles mostly) and believe me if i went around pissing everyone off we would have went out of business. You need your customers, without them you are nothing.

If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: gypsyav on October 09, 2012, 05:57:22 PM
Simple, you don't give them the ability in the first place by refraining from doing business with them. Either that or you lawyer up and sue them after they do something wrong. The problem here is legally they didn't do anything that would have consequences. This is one of those things that sucks, but unless we find out that something illegal happened, then we can't do anything about it. The only recourse is to try to permanently damage their reputation (which people already started honestly), but this really should only be considered if you're willing to burn the bridge and don't want anything from them.

Thank you for making my point for me.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: gypsyav on October 09, 2012, 05:59:44 PM
If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?

In my grandfather's shop he would special order items for customers if it was a product he didn't carry.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: downix on October 09, 2012, 06:00:00 PM
If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?
False analogy. Would instead be the petstore kicking out businessmen who walk in, suitcase full of cash, and offer to buy that pet license and all supplies.

NCSoft has ignored all discussions of money, which is why your analogy does not work.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 06:02:00 PM
Void Hunter, there is reason to believe that lack of money was not, in fact, the prime issue. There are other possible reasons, unrelated to raw cash offerings or lack thereof, that NCSoft has decided not to even try to sell the IP.

Because there are these reasons, it is possible that a large enough PR nightmare will make them more willing to re-consider. Did we know these reasons, we could try to address them more directly. We don't.

You're welcome to think all his hopeless, but coming onto a board where people are determined to try and telling them to give up because trying anything at all is futile is going to be met with...resistance.

I am getting the impression that you think trying at all is going to make NCSoft want to sit on the IP out of spite, even if they otherwise would change their minds. Is that correct? If so, at what point would you expect meekly playing the game and not making any noise to convince them to change their minds? When will somebody with this mythical amount of money come along to acquire something that, to all outward appearances, nobody cares has disappeared?
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: void hunter on October 09, 2012, 06:03:59 PM
False analogy. Would instead be the petstore kicking out businessmen who walk in, suitcase full of cash, and offer to buy that pet license and all supplies.

NCSoft has ignored all discussions of money, which is why your analogy does not work.

And if the amount in the briefcase amounted to them taking a serious loss? Even less than the tax break they could gain from just closing the store?
In my grandfather's shop he would special order items for customers if it was a product he didn't carry.

Yeah I knew it was a little risky with the analogy, but it still holds true. What if there was a minimum order, and only one or two people wanted them, but he had to order 50? I'm just trying to reason this out here. It's not as simple or cut and dry as everyone is trying to make it out to be.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: gypsyav on October 09, 2012, 06:08:15 PM
Yeah I knew it was a little risky with the analogy, but it still holds true. What if there was a minimum order, and only one or two people wanted them, but he had to order 50? I'm just trying to reason this out here. It's not as simple or cut and dry as everyone is trying to make it out to be.

He would talk to the customer and work something out with them. He wouldn't just say, no, sorry it can't be done.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: void hunter on October 09, 2012, 06:11:18 PM
Void Hunter, there is reason to believe that lack of money was not, in fact, the prime issue. There are other possible reasons, unrelated to raw cash offerings or lack thereof, that NCSoft has decided not to even try to sell the IP.

Because there are these reasons, it is possible that a large enough PR nightmare will make them more willing to re-consider. Did we know these reasons, we could try to address them more directly. We don't.

You're welcome to think all his hopeless, but coming onto a board where people are determined to try and telling them to give up because trying anything at all is futile is going to be met with...resistance.

I am getting the impression that you think trying at all is going to make NCSoft want to sit on the IP out of spite, even if they otherwise would change their minds. Is that correct? If so, at what point would you expect meekly playing the game and not making any noise to convince them to change their minds? When will somebody with this mythical amount of money come along to acquire something that, to all outward appearances, nobody cares has disappeared?

I didn't say don't try anything, but what you "know" is based off of hearsay. How do you know that the amount offered was sufficient? Because people on here said they heard it was from a friend? The best attempt would have been to make sure there was enough money, by participating. The only people that know for sure are the involved parties, which NONE of us are. If we would have started with the group funding thing, we would have known better, but we don't and we're using other people's hearsay as evidence that our hearsay is real.

They're not emotionally charged like us. They make decisions based on things like money and liability. If their terms were unreasonable, then I guess the purchaser didn't want the game bad enough as well. The point is we don't know either way. People shouldn't be so desperate that they take any rumor as truth. If you can't lend anything of substance to the acquisition, then you really can't do anything. At best, you're a distraction. At worst, you're a reason why the seller would back away from the table.

There is still a way, try to back Paragon, but let them dictate what needs to be done. We don't even know what they offered, and whether or not they closed the negotiations.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: void hunter on October 09, 2012, 06:12:28 PM
He would talk to the customer and work something out with them. He wouldn't just say, no, sorry it can't be done.

Well, there are businesses that would say no, we don't carry that. Like I said it wasn't the best analogy.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 09, 2012, 06:13:27 PM
Once more, if anyone sees what I'm saying as being abusive, go ahead and speak up. Look at what I'm saying, not what you want to take offense to.
I haven't seen you say anything abusive, negative - sure, but not abusive.
I will however disagree on Frank's case, who's original basically said two things;

1) You're all a bunch of whiners. Knock it off.
2) Don't trust this Tony guy, he's probably lying about even being in contact with NCSoft.

He comes back to point 1 quite frequently in the wall of text he posted, and in subsequent posts of his.
And no, I don't think it's polite to come in and insult everyone, basically tell them to give up over and over again - and then proceed to try to discredit the person who's tried to unite everyone to save the game.

Repeatedly you two have been asked to -add- something constructive to the forums, but instead you are being broken records that keep playing the same old song "Give up and go home", which shows what your only interest for being here really is.
And on that note the topic is closed for me, I will do what I usually do to the fae kind that love to live under bridges.  ;)

There is still a way, try to back Paragon, but let them dictate what needs to be done. We don't even know what they offered, and whether or not they closed the negotiations.
Actually that was productive.
Hopefully they'll be able to communicate with the community in November.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 09, 2012, 06:15:09 PM
The problem here is legally they didn't do anything that would have consequences. This is one of those things that sucks, but unless we find out that something illegal happened, then we can't do anything about it.

There are plenty of things that you could do that are terrible and make you a dick but not actually illegal.  Such as posting on a cat forum that dogs are the best pets ever and cats suck, or telling a forum full of people that want to save a game that it's hopeless and they shouldn't even try.  (There are of course other things but this is what comes to mind right now)

So, when a person/corporation does something that's not actually illegal, but is bad for a community, what happens?  That's where shaming/reputation destroying comes into play.  Social pressures, instead of legal pressures.  Even if it doesn't stop/reverse the behavior for that one person, it discourages other people (and corporations) from doing so.

Also, we don't know much about the negotiations because NCSoft won't tell us anything, and likely have the other part in the negotiation under some sort of NDA.  As far as I know, Paragon can't even really talk to us at this point.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Codewalker on October 09, 2012, 06:16:56 PM
While I was all for some kind of movement to get things going (the reason I came here in the first place), what I saw being discussed alarmed me and honestly made me concerned that not only would the efforts not work, but many of the tactics being discussed might have actually interfered with more sincere and plausible attempts. I also witnessed things that were let's just say inappropriate, and tried to speak out against such actions or viewpoints.

I remember those posts. This was back before you had a tantrum, deleted your own account, and then created a new one with a different name the very next day, right?

It was apparent from them that you read the first post in a thread about something like "We should sue NCSoft for all their worth, rawr, and sic RICO, the SEC, the MPAA, and the CIA on 'em!", got alarmed, skipped over the 20 replies of everyone else saying why it was a bad idea, and started posting provocative, argumentative things like "ARE YOU GUYS KIDDING????!". I mean, speaking of all caps replies and all...

I'm not saying all the crap you got heaved on you in return was deserved, but you need to accept that your tone, posturing, and apparent lack of reading comprehension at least brought some of it on yourself. Judging by your more recent posts, it seems that may be the case.

If you think you're being personally attacked by a few people, then bring it up to them and to the mods. Don't assume that the entire community is a hive mind that's out to get you and turn unrelated threads into a battleground over your personal issues. And if you really believe those things, why did you come back?

This thread has already deviated off course quite enough.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: gypsyav on October 09, 2012, 06:21:33 PM
Well, there are businesses that would say no, we don't carry that. Like I said it wasn't the best analogy.

Which comes back to putting the customer last. Exactly my argument.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Floride on October 09, 2012, 06:26:28 PM
If someone says there's no hope he will only upset those who, deep down, believe he's right and are just here to lie to themselves. Negative posts get a ton more replies than actual ideas posted here do. I know this because aside from this post, all my other posts have been new ideas.

So I'm gonna join in the fun!

It's a short list: play the game as if you loved it like you say you love it

THIS!
Too many people have stopped playing. I'm helping friends get their 45's to 50's with little to no other help because attendance in-game has shot way down. I spend more time playing the game than on any forums, I don't believe that's true for many here. I'm going to play until the lights go out, but i think a lot of people who said the same thing actually meant "when" and not "until".
Notice, I'm not agreeing with Frank. I'm agreeing with something he said. There's a difference.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: void hunter on October 09, 2012, 06:27:05 PM
This thread has already deviated off course quite enough.

Yeah, I got upset (imagine that on a forum), and got into an argument. Then my posts were deleted, but most of the other posts were left in tact, even the ones that took it further than mine. I got upset and deleted my account, but then tried to restore it and was unable so I made another one.

What course was this thread on that it's been derailed from? This is a "response" thread right? Isn't that what's happening here, people are responding to the statement and to each other. It's not like this is polluting the sunset thread or anything else. If you only wanted people to agree, then you should ask members not to openly invite people from CoH to here. Sometimes you have to be the irritant that causes the oyster to create a pearl. Is this not what you're trying to do with NCSoft? If that's the case, then some of us are trying to do it with the rest of us. Believe it or not, I HAVE thrown out ideas for what the most logical path should be. I've tried to ask if anyone actually had the real figures or knew an answer. I guess I don't understand why it's only when people show this kind of approach that the mods step in and close it down.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 06:27:34 PM
If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?

Actually there were a few times i took a loss on certain animals just to keep the customers coming back. It's called good customer service.

And as far as your comment "would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?" we tried to work with them.

And anyway how is that point valid at all? We tried to work with those who were upset for whatever reason; NCSOft hasn't tried to work with us at all. WE have been given NO opportunity whatsoever to show we would pay for whatever it took. They shut us down and showed no effort.



Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 06:30:04 PM
I didn't say don't try anything, but what you "know" is based off of hearsay. How do you know that the amount offered was sufficient? Because people on here said they heard it was from a friend? The best attempt would have been to make sure there was enough money, by participating. The only people that know for sure are the involved parties, which NONE of us are. If we would have started with the group funding thing, we would have known better, but we don't and we're using other people's hearsay as evidence that our hearsay is real.
It's not "heard it from a friend." And what we know is that there were very sticky issues being hammered out, according to Tony who, IIRC, cited Brian as his source. There has been speculation about those sticky issues, but it's fairly clear that it's more than "just money." "Just money" doesn't take any hammering out.

Nor is "exhausting all options" generally code for "they just didn't offer enough money." It's pretty easy to state "nobody was both willing and able to make a sufficiently large offer." That would indicate a willingness to sell and be a GOOD way to start a bidding war if they were at all interested just because of money.

You admit yourself that you operate from a point of ignorance. Therefore, your assumption that the only possible reason is "nobody offered enough money" is just that: an assumption. It is one you base on solid reasoning and guesswork, but it is not more inherently correct than reasoned theories that involve other, non-sale-price-related considerations, especially given what we do know from NCSoft's own official statements and actions.

As for crowd-funding, more than one of us looked into it and were cautioned to back off. So we did. We have offered to get back to it should Paragon have needed it. They did not ask. If it had purely been a matter of money, then they probably would have asked, or done crowd-sourcing of their own.

They're not emotionally charged like us. They make decisions based on things like money and liability. If their terms were unreasonable, then I guess the purchaser didn't want the game bad enough as well.
That's an odd way of putting it. If they asked for exclusive ownership of the moon and sovereignty over all of Asia to be delivered by military force funded at any cost by the purchaser, would that mean the purchaser "didn't want the game bad enough?"

Or would it mean there were terms over which agreement literally could not be reached? (I'm not suggesting NCSoft was as unreasonable in their requirements as the above; it was deliberate hyperbole to make the point that "unreasonable demands" do not mean the other party "doesn't want it badly enough.")

The point is we don't know either way. People shouldn't be so desperate that they take any rumor as truth. If you can't lend anything of substance to the acquisition, then you really can't do anything. At best, you're a distraction. At worst, you're a reason why the seller would back away from the table.
This is nonsense. If these people are as reasoned and unemotional about it as you said earlier, impassioned fans who are desperately searching for anything to save their game are only more reason to get it sold, if the only concerns are "NCSoft doesn't want it anymore" and "Can I make back my investment?" NCSoft gains nothing by deliberately reacting to fans saying "Please sell the game to somebody who will keep it running; here, look at us demonstrate that how badly we want this!" by backing away from the table. Something - either lack of sufficient funds or Something Else - got in the way.

There is still a way, try to back Paragon, but let them dictate what needs to be done. We don't even know what they offered, and whether or not they closed the negotiations.
You clearly have not been paying attention. We do very much back Paragon, and want to help them however we can. The only messages we've gotten from them were "we're working on it" and "keep showing that you care."

Since "showing that [we] care" is something they've expressly asked us to do, I think doing so counts as following your advice to "back Paragon," don't you?
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 06:30:35 PM
In my grandfather's shop he would special order items for customers if it was a product he didn't carry.

Another good point, we did that too.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 06:33:03 PM
And if the amount in the briefcase amounted to them taking a serious loss? Even less than the tax break they could gain from just closing the store?
Considering that, in your analogy, he's going to euthanize the animals he's already paid for rather than sell them, any amount of money would be more than he's losing just throwing the carcasses out back.

That said, there may well be other considerations than pure monetary price.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Siberian Spring on October 09, 2012, 06:33:30 PM
We do very much back Paragon, and want to help them however we can. The only messages we've gotten from them were "we're working on it" and "keep showing that you care."

Since "showing that [we] care" is something they've expressly asked us to do, I think doing so counts as following your advice to "back Paragon," don't you?

Speaking of... Did anyone else see a certain "Keep the faith" message in Virtue AP33 broadcast last night? Had redname formatting but not red. (Forgot to turn UI on before trying to screencap)
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 06:37:32 PM
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Codewalker on October 09, 2012, 06:40:35 PM
Yeah, I got upset (imagine that on a forum), and got into an argument. Then my posts were deleted, but most of the other posts were left in tact, even the ones that took it further than mine. I got upset and deleted my account, but then tried to restore it and was unable so I made another one.

Just trying to point out that the emotional reactions aren't all happening on one side of the fence. Ultimately, I think we all want to achieve the same goal here, and are better off if we try not to fight amongst ourselves.

Quote
What course was this thread on that it's been derailed from? This is a "response" thread right? Isn't that what's happening here, people are responding to the statement and to each other. It's not like this is polluting the sunset thread or anything else.

More the 'responding to each other' part overtaking the 'addressing the issue at hand' part. The last thing we need is things degenerating into irrational personal attacks.

Quote
I guess I don't understand why it's only when people show this kind of approach that the mods step in and close it down.

Have you had anything deleted since then? I looked at your post history and didn't see anything obvious. I don't remember the exact context of what happened before, but I do remember it being a bit more inflammatory than anything recent. Again, it's more about how you say things than what you're saying. The people who are actually modding posts don't have any problem with people presenting alternate ideas, so long as it's done in a constructive way.

Quote
I've tried to ask if anyone actually had the real figures or knew an answer.

As far as I know, no real figures have been released publicly. What we do know is that some former Paragon management were attempting to negotiate a buyout of the IP. We haven't heard anything else from that side of the table, and nothing from NCSoft except for their "give it up" announcement.

Unofficially, some reports from the dev dinner are hinting that it may not have been the dollar amount that was the sticking point, but rather something else entirely. No one who was there is saying much, no doubt to protect the people who told them that, if they were told anything of relevance. We simply don't have any official word.

The only other thing we know is that a few independent studios have tried to approach NCSoft to feel them out for making an offer and have been met with silence. It's unknown as to the reason, and there are as many different speculations on it as there are colors of the bike shed.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: void hunter on October 09, 2012, 06:43:09 PM
Considering that, in your analogy, he's going to euthanize the animals he's already paid for rather than sell them, any amount of money would be more than he's losing just throwing the carcasses out back.

That said, there may well be other considerations than pure monetary price.

Sorry, but I'm not going to go point by point with your other post. I'll sum up here real quick. If you and I want to do a deal, and you have stipulations, I either want / need the thing so bad I'm willing to deal with the stipulations or I don't want / need it bad enough to deal with them. Fair assessment? The converse is true, either you want to sell so bad you'll take my offer, or you don't want / need to sell it that bad. The question is, how badly does NCSoft want / need to sell the game?

As far as the hearsay thing, even Tony saying something is hearsay. Sorry but it's true. I know he's seen as being a straight up guy, but he's NOT Brian or anyone from Paragon. Once the word comes from them (or from NCSoft), then we know for sure. Until then, nothing is confirmed.

Negotiations involve money and terms, always have always will. Usually more terms come with less money and vice versa. Regardless of the sticking point, we're not going to force NCSoft. As far as backing Paragon, them saying keep showing we care could mean anything. If they said don't do the group funding thing, then maybe that meant don't get involved directly. We don't know.

One thing was said that caught my eye, the last time I logged in, it was indeed a ghost town on the game. Playing is a major sign of support as well. You don't have to agree with me, and feel free to debate me as much as you want. For the time being, I have other matters to attend. Have a great day guys.
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 06:46:30 PM

One thing was said that caught my eye, the last time I logged in, it was indeed a ghost town on the game. Playing is a major sign of support as well. You don't have to agree with me, and feel free to debate me as much as you want. For the time being, I have other matters to attend. Have a great day guys.
Totally agree, i play every night before bed and i have noticed it's pretty dead too. Of course it isn't the Virtue server i play on so i didn't figure the population would be too high.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 06:47:54 PM
BTW i love you all, we might not allways see eye to eye on issues but we are all here for the same reason. To SAVE CITY OF HEROES/VILLAINS
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Turjan on October 09, 2012, 07:02:28 PM
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 09, 2012, 07:06:54 PM
Imagine you have a cherished pet. You love your pet, it has been a part of your family for years. One day you get a phone call.
"Hello, I am the one who bred your pet all those years ago. I have bad news I'm afraid - it's been a difficult decision to make, but your pet has to be put to sleep in 3 months."
"What? Why?" you say, confused and hurt.
"Don't ask about the hows or whys, it's just better to accept it and move on" says the breeder.
"Can't my pet be saved?" you ask in desperation.
"Attempts to save your pet have been unsuccessful," says the breeder.
"But...there's nothing wrong with my pet! It's as healthy now as it's ever been! Why would you want to kill it, and why is it not possible to save it?"
The breeder says "We all have happy memories of your pet - please let us remember those and move on." ...and hangs up.

Now, it is true that City of Heroes is not 'alive' in the same way a cherished pet is alive. But the dreams the players have created within the game are very much alive. And by closing the game, you are also killing those dreams.


Wow.....just wow, what a powerful message, it reminds me of the NC dog comic someone posted a while back...
Title: Re: That Darned FrankTurk
Post by: Manga on October 09, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
It would be awesome to see where FrankTurk said that.  I think he instead said that it would be better to do constructive things rather than string out our hopes -- but if FrankTurk said, "shut up," or anything like that, it would be good to see where he said that.

Whatever, straw man.  I probably misspelled something too, so that makes 2 reasons you're induspitably in the right.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Manga on October 09, 2012, 08:00:40 PM

Void Hunter,

See, the problem is you keep behaving like our attempts at saving CoH are costing you or embarrassing you somehow.  It is not costing you anything to watch, so there is no reason to tell *us* to stop.  As I said before, it's not about YOU.

The only possible reason for you to insist we stop at all is like Victoria Victrix pretty much said; that you take pleasure in making people feel wrong and worthless, and you're compelled to do so.  Don't say that you just hate people acting illogically or that you're just being devil's advocate, because that too translates into a compulsion to make people miserable.

I'm telling you now, that kind of thing won't fly here.  Make people miserable someplace else.

Sorry to everyone else who had to read this.  I'll try to make it up to you by doing my best to help change NCSoft's mind.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 09, 2012, 08:27:27 PM
I didn't send the letter in the end because when I came to read it back, it looked like all I was trying to do was deliberately kick the reader in the emotional nuts over and over. Which I was, I suppose - but I don't think that's necessarily a productive approach to take, so I didn't send it.
Yet. ;)

I know I'm taking a huge liberty with what Tony said in his response to NCSoft, but I believe he's saying, among other things that this kind of nut-kicking is now called for. :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 09, 2012, 08:28:20 PM
Also, while I'm here...

<drops two 50# bags of unicorn food>

Looks like you're running a little low in here.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 09, 2012, 08:30:08 PM
Also, while I'm here...

<drops two 50# bags of unicorn food>

Looks like you're running a little low in here.

@_@ get that out of here, you'll attract more of them!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 09, 2012, 08:31:22 PM
I'm finished aiming comments like this at any one person, and I'm also too lazy to pick apart everything everyone's said in the last two or three pages.  So instead, let me offer some general advice for all of us and hope it sinks in.

For the minority:

1) People take things personally.  I don't care if you didn't mean it, it's natural for a person to take something general, apply to themselves and get upset about it.  For those who have been saying we're going to fail, people are understanding that as, "nice try, loser" and reacting accordingly.  If you have an opinion that might come across as inflammatory, I would suggest a little proofreading before you hit submit.  If you really want such an opinion to help us save City of Heroes you'll work on a way of getting into people's heads such that you're not the anti-Christ (please forgive the religious reference). 

2) Somewhat contradictory, but if anyone says "That's it, we're done.  We're going to fail."  I'm sorry, but you lose.  Saying this will never, ever, ever get you anywhere on this board.  At that point people have already dawned their zombie apocalypse gear and are ready to eviscerate you.  How can you prevent this?  Don't say it in any way, shape or form.  Maybe then you can stop crying about how no one is listening to you and further contribute.

3) This isn't always easy,  but do you try to stay positive.  At least remain constructive.  Few people are going to fly off the handle when you post things like, "I disagree, <here's why> and <here's what I think could be done/said/etc instead>."  People will actually respect you if you do this.  But you must watch your tone.  And if you really have nothing nice to say, leave.  Now.  No one wants you here, no one will listen and no likes you.  If you dare to stick around, don't whine when people aren't hearing your opinions.  You want them heard?  Be nice.  Be constructive.  It's not easy, but you'll find a way.  I have faith in you <3


For everyone else:

1) Don't let a few negative comments get to you.  No matter what anyone says, they're just sitting behind a computer as you are.  As Tony has said, they're 'internet nobodies.'

2) Please try not to take every dissenting voice as a personal act of war on your effort within the campaign.  Most aren't intended to make you make mad and are not intended to hurt your feelings.  If said voice is, then you can safely assume they're a certain Hollows-dwelling-superadine-addicted individual and you can move on.

3)Stay strong and don't be afraid to speak, even when their are people out there being crucified because of their opinions.  No one's going to start chucking harpoons if you're being constructive.       
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 09, 2012, 08:43:39 PM
I'm finished aiming comments like this at any one person, and I'm also too lazy to pick apart everything everyone's said in the last two or three pages.  So instead, let me offer some general advice for all of us and hope it sinks in.

For the minority:

1) People take things personally.  I don't care if you didn't mean it, it's natural for a person to take something general, apply to themselves and get upset about it.  For those who have been saying we're going to fail, people are understanding that as, "nice try, loser" and reacting accordingly.  If you have an opinion that might come across as inflammatory, I would suggest a little proofreading before you hit submit.  If you really want such an opinion to help us save City of Heroes you'll work on a way of getting into people's heads such that you're not the anti-Christ (please forgive the religious reference). 

2) Somewhat contradictory, but if anyone says "That's it, we're done.  We're going to fail."  I'm sorry, but you lose.  Saying this will never, ever, ever get you anywhere on this board.  At that point people have already dawned their zombie apocalypse gear and are ready to eviscerate you.  How can you prevent this?  Don't say it in any way, shape or form.  Maybe then you can stop crying about how no one is listening to you and further contribute.

3) This isn't always easy,  but do you try to stay positive.  At least remain constructive.  Few people are going to fly off the handle when you post things like, "I disagree, <here's why> and <here's what I think could be done/said/etc instead>."  People will actually respect you if you do this.  But you must watch your tone.  And if you really have nothing nice to say, leave.  Now.  No one wants you here, no one will listen and no likes you.  If you dare to stick around, don't whine when people aren't hearing your opinions.  You want them heard?  Be nice.  Be constructive.  It's not easy, but you'll find a way.  I have faith in you <3


For everyone else:

1) Don't let a few negative comments get to you.  No matter what anyone says, they're just sitting behind a computer as you are.  As Tony has said, they're 'internet nobodies.'

2) Please try not to take every dissenting voice as a personal act of war on your effort within the campaign.  Most aren't intended to make you make mad and are not intended to hurt your feelings.  If said voice is, then you can safely assume they're a certain Hollows-dwelling-superadine-addicted individual and you can move on.

3)Stay strong and don't be afraid to speak, even when their are people out there being crucified because of their opinions.  No one's going to start chucking harpoons if you're being constructive.       

At the same time, not realizing that we are probably going to fail (at plan A at least) is very unrealistic, so we need to consider alternatives. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Heroes don't give up!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 09, 2012, 08:46:08 PM
At the same time, not realizing that we are probably going to fail (at plan A at least) is very unrealistic, so we need to consider alternatives. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. Heroes don't give up!
Yeah, there is something to be said for denial.  But I don't believe that anyone here thinks we will succeed 100%.  Or even that it's likely.  If they did, the more malicious posts wouldn't phase us at all. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 08:58:25 PM
Forgive me for being a touch Polyannaish for a moment: Plan A literally cannot fail until NCSoft destroys every bit of code that would be needed to restart CoH. It's not over Nov. 30; it just is frustrating that there's an interruption of service at that point.

Okay, done with that.

Back to your regularly-scheduled antics for whatever Plan letter you're working on!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 09, 2012, 09:03:54 PM
Forgive me for being a touch Polyannaish for a moment: Plan A literally cannot fail until NCSoft destroys every bit of code that would be needed to restart CoH. It's not over Nov. 30; it just is frustrating that there's an interruption of service at that point.

Okay, done with that.

Back to your regularly-scheduled antics for whatever Plan letter you're working on!
I wish more people would realize that November 30th is not the end-times. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: sevda on October 09, 2012, 09:12:14 PM
Just trying to point out that the emotional reactions aren't all happening on one side of the fence. Ultimately, I think we all want to achieve the same goal here, and are better off if we try not to fight amongst ourselves.

More the 'responding to each other' part overtaking the 'addressing the issue at hand' part. The last thing we need is things degenerating into irrational personal attacks.

So it's okay for someone to go about accusing people of being abusers with little substance behind said accusation? I see how this forum works, then. As long as a person tows the "company" line, it doesn't matter what they say to/about other people as long as the other people are disagreeing with said "company" line. Nice to know.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 09, 2012, 09:13:54 PM
You'll note that it's not people who are doom and gloom that VV called "abusers." It's people who come in and attack anybody who dares to try anything but giving up.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rae on October 09, 2012, 09:15:53 PM
Fighting, arguing and finding fault with each other takes time, effort and brainpower.

Every bit of time, effort and brain power you put into arguing with someone here and trying to prove them wrong without coming up with an alternative option is time that isn't being put into trying to save CoH, or supporting the game, or efforts to survive if NC Soft has their way.

Guys, we are all here because of the game, its the one thing we have in common.  And unless we can work together, we won't have that anymore.

The energy that's being put into yelling at each other is much better spent in trying to find ways to keep CoH alive, or ensure we can still be together after November 30.

We dont have to agree on every little thing, but we're all supposed to be on the same side, and want the same thing,  aren't we?   

The more time we spend picking holes in each other and bickering, the less we're spending on thanking the media, sponsoring the gameathoners, working on plans A - Z and playing CoH.

We're acting like a PuG, instead of an SG ;)

Sorry for any mad typing. Using my smart phone.






Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 09, 2012, 09:16:44 PM
You'll note that it's not people who are doom and gloom that VV called "abusers." It's people who come in and attack anybody who dares to try anything but giving up.
You beat me to it.

People are being attacked because of overwhelmingly negative viewpoints that ultimately offer nothing constructive.  Is there a reason that should be allowed to continue?  It's an honest question, and I've based my arguments on the fact that I cannot answer.  But if you can, please let us know.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 09, 2012, 10:32:40 PM
I wish more people would realize that November 30th is not the end-times.

Yes it is; it's just that there will be an afterlife for once the Final Judgement is declared. The heroes who were brave and did not stop even in the face of the end will be rewarded with a new CoH (or spiritual equivalent). The greedy corporate executives, unicorns, and moles will be tormented forever with envy that they can do nothing against! ;)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: AlaikaBalta on October 09, 2012, 10:33:58 PM
We're acting like a PuG, instead of an SG ;)

S'cuse me while I apologize to my housemates for LOLing in the morning. That aside, please don't feed the unicorns, especially with Superadyne and uni-hay. They'll eat your hand too and ask for seconds.

Unrelated side note: Sent a letter in response to NCSoft's response to our response to them shutting down CoH (That was a mouthful...). Also, been keeping watch on their stock price and been seeing them falling. Might want to crank up the publicity, guys.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 09, 2012, 10:35:44 PM
S'cuse me while I apologize to my housemates for LOLing in the morning. That aside, please don't feed the unicorns, especially with Superadyne and uni-hay. They'll eat your hand too and ask for seconds.

Unrelated side note: Sent a letter in response to NCSoft's response to our response to them shutting down CoH (That was a mouthful...). Also, been keeping watch on their stock price and been seeing them falling. Might want to crank up the publicity, guys.

I agree with this.  I feel like our media coverage has slouched a little.  Media day will undoubtedly help, but that's still over a week away.  Any ideas?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rae on October 09, 2012, 10:40:19 PM
I think a press release about the gameathon would probably get people interested again.  A lot of money has been pledged.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: void hunter on October 09, 2012, 11:10:45 PM
OK, after minding real life for a bit, I came back and read the responses. You know what, you guys are completely right, and I was completely wrong.

I came in looking for a real movement that I could participate in. One that actually took steps to accomplish something. What I found was not this, and wasn't something I would be willing to align my real name with. So, what did I do? I tried to get people to see the folly of their approach and encourage real conversations with real facts. I see now that I was in fact very wrong with my approach, as these are things that will not be found here. You've made a believer of me, but only in the case that I have in fact wasted my time and effort even trying to bring about any change in anyone's viewpoint on this, and in the process create any chance that a plausible approach will be made for this.

Carry on folks. I'm sure one of your ideas will work towards making them do what you think they should, instead of finding out what they want and trying to find a way to accomplish it.

-Michael
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 09, 2012, 11:21:44 PM
That aside, please don't feed the unicorns, especially with Superadyne and uni-hay.

OK, I'm taking THIS over to the Sunset forums!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on October 09, 2012, 11:37:59 PM
Carry on folks. I'm sure one of your ideas will work towards making them do what you think they should, instead of finding out what they want and trying to find a way to accomplish it.
Nope. Not bitter at all.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 09, 2012, 11:52:10 PM
Just want to point out two tiny little things.  OK, not so tiny.

One: This entire board is entitled SAVE COH.  Not "Be defeatist about CoH."  "Sit around and tell sad stories about CoH."  And certainly not "Tell everyone on this board what idiots they are for daring to attempt to try to save CoH."  It's out there, open and above board.  Don't like it?  Don't post here.  Complaining that it is a "company line you have to toe" makes just about as much sense as going over to a "Save The Whales" site and complaining you have to toe the line about trying to actually save whales instead of writing eulogies for them.

Two: This board is owned and operated and funded by Tony Velasquez and the Titan Network.  Privately owned, operated, and funded.  It is analogous to a privately owned and operated lecture hall, where the owners are completely within their rights to have only the speakers they care to have speak.  "Free speech" does not apply here, except as Tony and the Titan mods decide it does.  Just as "Free Speech" does not apply on a privately owned and operated Fundamentalist Christian board, or a Save the Whales board, or a Left Wing Liberal board, or a Right Wing Libertarian board.  Don't like it?  Go fund your own board, where you can air your own opinions as freely as you like.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 09, 2012, 11:56:16 PM
As this thread has continued, I've become more and more concerned at the progressive ratcheting up of the hostility.  Then I took my son to his anger management group. Somehow, those two things are related, but it occurs to me that the nasty appears confined to this thread, and everyone is kinda getting along everywhere else, mostly.

Maybe this thread can be where we blow off steam, yell, holler, scream into pillows, or beat each other up with Nerf pugil sticks.  I'll start:

VV is a doody-head.

Emu, seriously. What are you trying to say with that hair?

Rae, could you BE any more European?

Segev --  Actually, I really envy your writing and layout ability, so...  You must eat puppies, or something!

Was that too much? I can never tell.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 12:04:26 AM
*plants an ice-cream cone on turducken's head*

Now you're an ice-cream head.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 10, 2012, 12:16:49 AM
As this thread has continued, I've become more and more concerned at the progressive ratcheting up of the hostility.  Then I took my son to his anger management group. Somehow, those two things are related, but it occurs to me that the nasty appears confined to this thread, and everyone is kinda getting along everywhere else, mostly.
Mostly because the posts of two specific people seemed to be focused on this topic.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 10, 2012, 12:18:05 AM
<wipes ice cream out of his eyes, grabs two handfuls from his head, and flicks them at VV>
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 12:19:28 AM
<wipes ice cream out of his eyes, grabs two handfuls from his head, and flicks them at VV>

Did I specify there was ice cream in the cone?  I did not.

Are you halucinating?
Title: Re: CAPS LOCK vs. arguments
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 10, 2012, 12:20:47 AM
If you decided to stop carrying one particular pet because you decided it wasn't cost effective, or more of a pain than it was worth (for whatever reason), would your existing few customers that bought that one pet change your mind by throwing a fit and saying they wanted you to give them all of the supplies to this type of pet, without even showing you enough money?

Voidhunter I posted several things trying to calm this crowd while also trying to make it so I wasn't picking sides and respecting every ones opinion.  Yours however I do not respect because you are not here trying to save City of heroes.  You are clearly here just to argue and your efforts WILL NOT be missed because you are not doing anything to save the game.  I am sure there are plenty of other sites that have causes you are not interested in that you can argue with them about.   Don't respond to me and do us a favor and LEAVE THE DAMN FORUMS.  These forums are dedicated to saving the game.  Not feeling like a big man and trying to get the last word in.  I don't mean to rude and I assure everyone else I won't act this way to you, but seriously who comes to a site just to try and lower spirits.  That is such a low move
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 10, 2012, 12:23:24 AM
Did I specify there was ice cream in the cone?  I did not.

Are you halucinating?

Possibly. I do like my mojitos...  ;)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: sevda on October 10, 2012, 12:24:17 AM
Just want to point out two tiny little things.  OK, not so tiny.

One: This entire board is entitled SAVE COH.  Not "Be defeatist about CoH."  "Sit around and tell sad stories about CoH."  And certainly not "Tell everyone on this board what idiots they are for daring to attempt to try to save CoH."  It's out there, open and above board.  Don't like it?  Don't post here.  Complaining that it is a "company line you have to toe" makes just about as much sense as going over to a "Save The Whales" site and complaining you have to toe the line about trying to actually save whales instead of writing eulogies for them.

Two: This board is owned and operated and funded by Tony Velasquez and the Titan Network.  Privately owned, operated, and funded.  It is analogous to a privately owned and operated lecture hall, where the owners are completely within their rights to have only the speakers they care to have speak.  "Free speech" does not apply here, except as Tony and the Titan mods decide it does.  Just as "Free Speech" does not apply on a privately owned and operated Fundamentalist Christian board, or a Save the Whales board, or a Left Wing Liberal board, or a Right Wing Libertarian board.  Don't like it?  Go fund your own board, where you can air your own opinions as freely as you like.

All of this is more than obvious, as the biggest thing that I've seen has been people being so enamored by your so-called fame that they fall all over themselves letting you spew whatever misnomers you choose to. Someone disagrees with you? They're automatically a "verbal abuser" whether it is said out in the open, such as with Frank, or in private, such as with others. At least when Segev so horribly offended the person with that tactless comparison, he had the maturity to step up and apologize when he found out about the offense. I say that you have offended me with your willy nilly use of a serious accusation because I know full well what true abuse is. Your response was, essentially, too bad that I don't share your opinion and sounding as if you are more of an expert on verbal abuse than someone who has lived through it.

Just like void hunter, I joined this forum with the hopes of being part of something positive, something that would be rational and reasonable. I have watched as people have begun flinging mud at anyone who tries to say, "Well, maybe by this point, the route ya'll are going may not be the best approach." Whether it is from their own, personal experiences in business or from a viewpoint of one with less emotion connected to the game. God forbid they try to speak out with their own opinions and have it be different from the pack's (or Mercedes Lackey's) views!

I began playing CoH with someone very special to me, as I went through some pretty serious health issues. Being a superhero, playing my various characters helped me feel strong when physically I was incredibly weak and broken. I don't want to see it go any more than the next guy, but sheesh, I'm also not going to halt my life trying to clutch at straws and cling to hope that chances are pretty strong will end up letting me down. I spend far more time in game than on forums and obviously from my post count, I don't often speak out. However, when I see something that is so glaringly wrong on so many levels, I just can't, in good conscious remain quiet.

For the record, I will not ever buy another product from NCsoft. While I feel that they could have gone about all of this in a better way, my opinion is an American one, which is far different from an Asian way of looking at things. Too, I will boycott Mercedes Lackey, simply because I feel that she is nothing more than a bully who cries wolf in the form of unfounded accusations.

I wish you all most well, this is not the place for me, so I will bow out. I refuse to be a victim ever again.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 10, 2012, 12:27:12 AM
Hey, now.  I can tolerate people calling each other names and arguing with everyone (even if they're only saying "nuh-uh!"), but when people start wasting perfectly good ice cream cones, a line has been crossed!

(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/th_im-watching-you-focker.jpg) (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/im-watching-you-focker.jpg)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 10, 2012, 12:31:56 AM
Just like void hunter, I joined this forum with the hopes of being part of something positive, something that would be rational and reasonable. I have watched as people have begun flinging mud at anyone who tries to say, "Well, maybe by this point, the route ya'll are going may not be the best approach." Whether it is from their own, personal experiences in business or from a viewpoint of one with less emotion connected to the game. God forbid they try to speak out with their own opinions and have it be different from the pack's (or Mercedes Lackey's) views!

I began playing CoH with someone very special to me, as I went through some pretty serious health issues. Being a superhero, playing my various characters helped me feel strong when physically I was incredibly weak and broken. I don't want to see it go any more than the next guy, but sheesh, I'm also not going to halt my life trying to clutch at straws and cling to hope that chances are pretty strong will end up letting me down. I spend far more time in game than on forums and obviously from my post count, I don't often speak out. However, when I see something that is so glaringly wrong on so many levels, I just can't, in good conscious remain quiet.

The problem is they aren't doing that - Frank's arguement consisted of "Pony up 50 million or STFU" and Void... I'm not sure, he had his reasonable moments but mostly it was also "Just give up".
I'm glad to hear you got better, and that CoH was such a help for you in those tough times.
No one will ask you to stay and participate in something you don't believe in.
Goodluck Sevda, wherever your road may lead next.  :D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 10, 2012, 12:37:22 AM
Hey, now.  I can tolerate people calling each other names and arguing with everyone (even if they're only saying "nuh-uh!"), but when people start wasting perfectly good ice cream cones, a line has been crossed!

(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/th_im-watching-you-focker.jpg) (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/im-watching-you-focker.jpg)

Is that from Breakfast Club (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqYOF7Xr730)?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 10, 2012, 12:41:43 AM
The problem is they aren't doing that - Frank's arguement consisted of "Pony up 50 million or STFU" and Void... I'm not sure, he had his reasonable moments but mostly it was also "Just give up".
I'm glad to hear you got better, and that CoH was such a help for you in those tough times.
No one will ask you to stay and participate in something you don't believe in.
Goodluck Sevda, wherever your road may lead next.  :D
What amused me is how Frank's argument neglected to point out where this $50 million was to go......
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 10, 2012, 12:47:31 AM
Lost my train though so removed the post.  So.............ya
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: JaguarX on October 10, 2012, 12:48:00 AM
The "F2P riffraff" mentality has never been something I've felt was a problem in any game, but that doesn't mean others didn't see it.  I don't have access to numbers, obviously, but I do know that Exalted never had yellow dots next to it after about the first month it was up.  I have almost all the character slots filled, and the highest level character is still in the low twenties.

Yea I remember seeing all the hoopla about F2P and having to play side by side them from some of the leet members of COH. They called them noobs. So, they got their own server, which they probably was happy for it until they realized that it's lonely being leet and not many at they thought shared their snobbish attitude which ran counter to the friendly welcoming attitude that COH WAS known for. Not to mention having to start a new SG, some had massive SGs built up over the years, a new clique, and no one to call a noob. So most went back to their original server.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 10, 2012, 12:52:19 AM
Yea I remember seeing all the hoopla about F2P and having to play side by side them from some of the leet members of COH. They called them noobs. So, they got their own server, which they probably was happy for it until they realized that it's lonely being leet and not many at they thought shared their snobbish attitude which ran counter to the friendly welcoming attitude that COH WAS known for. Not to mention having to start a new SG, some had massive SGs built up over the years, a new clique, and no one to call a noob. So most went back to their original server.

I did get to make an SG called "The Evil League of Evil" on Exalted, but, yeah, nothing ever went far on that server for me. It never had anything to do with the n00bs. There just wasn't anyone to play with. :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 10, 2012, 12:53:23 AM
Emu, seriously. What are you trying to say with that hair?
But I just got a haircut!
*sob*
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 12:55:17 AM
Jebus I hate airing this in public.

YES I have been verbally abused so badly I had to be talked down from suicide.  Not once, but several times.  Which is why I am pretty good at recognizing it.  No, it was not my parents, it was an employer.  Which is why I am good in recognizing it in an authority figure, or someone who fancies himself as an authority figure.

Happy now?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: epawtows on October 10, 2012, 01:01:19 AM
*plants an ice-cream cone on turducken's head*

Now you're an ice-cream head.

Ice Cream Melee for Plan Z!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 01:03:15 AM
Ice Cream Melee for Plan Z!

I dunno that sounds like a blaster power to me.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 10, 2012, 01:12:46 AM
Secondary Blaster power?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 10, 2012, 01:13:17 AM
Dammit! Now I have a Dr. Horrible version of the Joker called the Ice Cream Man concept working through my head.  Headed fro the Sunset forum...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 01:15:23 AM
Dammit! Now I have a Dr. Horrible version of the Joker called the Ice Cream Man concept working through my head.  Headed fro the Sunset forum...

Don't forget the Brain Freeze power as you go.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 10, 2012, 01:27:05 AM
I am all of a sudden reminded of the wonderfully loopy hilarious ending to the Star Trek novel "How Much For Just The Planet" by the late great John M. Ford: 

"Somebody give the Captain a pie!"

At least 12 pies intersected on Kirk.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 10, 2012, 02:26:56 AM
Segev --  Actually, I really envy your writing and layout ability, so...  You must eat puppies, or something!
Aw, thanks! But it's kittens. I don't have a good recipe for puppies.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 10, 2012, 02:33:12 AM
On the off chance that void hunter and others who agree with him are still lurking around:

You've yet to suggest what our course should be, in your opinion. If you came here hoping to be part of something positive, something that might work, and found that we're somehow failing to do either, then it is incumbent upon you to tell us what we can do better, not merely that what we're doing is wrong.

"Stop doing what you're doing! It won't work! Why aren't you letting me be part of something positive, like I hoped to be!?" <--- do you see something missing from this sequence? It's this: "Why don't you try this? It might work better."

That's why nobody's heeding you, and nobody is lauding your brilliance. All you are doing is saying "this can't work, and I'm leaving because you won't acknowledge it and let me be part of something that will work." What should we be doing differently? What is this alternative expenditure of energy that you want to be a part of?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 10, 2012, 02:35:04 AM
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rae on October 10, 2012, 02:50:37 AM
Quote

Rae, could you BE any more European?


*climbs the Eiffel tower, while wearing lederhosen, wooden clogs, carrying an Italian phrasebook and sipping tea*

Bollocks,  cuppa tea, Bonjour, snog , shag, toodles, slaaaaaag, chuffed, lush, minted, wie gehts, macaroni, hilarious slang word for cigarette, fish n' chips.

Hey!  Apparently so.

:p
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 10, 2012, 03:06:58 AM
Jebus I hate airing this in public.

YES I have been verbally abused so badly I had to be talked down from suicide.  Not once, but several times.  Which is why I am pretty good at recognizing it.  No, it was not my parents, it was an employer.  Which is why I am good in recognizing it in an authority figure, or someone who fancies himself as an authority figure.

Happy now?

Yes, but only because you didn't do something drastic and deny us your wonderful presence today.

/me sets out hugs. And pomegranate schnapps.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 10, 2012, 03:14:11 AM
Jebus I hate airing this in public.

YES I have been verbally abused so badly I had to be talked down from suicide.  Not once, but several times.  Which is why I am pretty good at recognizing it.  No, it was not my parents, it was an employer.  Which is why I am good in recognizing it in an authority figure, or someone who fancies himself as an authority figure.

Happy now?

My thoughts are with you as someone who has been through it also. I'm glad you made it out ok, It's not easy.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: gypsyav on October 10, 2012, 03:22:45 AM
My thoughts are with you as someone who has been through it also. I'm glad you made it out ok, It's not easy.

I think there might be more of us than a lot of people would realize.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on October 10, 2012, 03:43:47 AM
*climbs the Eiffel tower, while wearing lederhosen, wooden clogs, carrying an Italian phrasebook and sipping tea*

Bollocks,  cuppa tea, Bonjour, snog , shag, toodles, slaaaaaag, chuffed, lush, minted, wie gehts, macaroni, hilarious slang word for cigarette, fish n' chips.

Hey!  Apparently so.

:p

For some reason, I can't find video of it, but this reminded me of a scene from an episode of the IT Crowd. :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 10, 2012, 03:45:28 AM
Meh, editing this post. The intended humor of the arrogance probably wouldn't come off right.

My condolences to those who have had that sort of thing happen. I empathize, though mercifully, I don't think I can sympathize. (And if I can, I'd rather not be aware of it, because there's no good dwelling on my own past miseries if I can no longer recall them. So nyah.) As always, if you ever need a friendly word of support, I think my email's in the forum system. I know PMs work.

I have, frankly, been amazed by how hard everyone is working, here, and how cohesive we've been. Even when we disagree. Despite what some have claimed, I know when I wandered onto the board with ideas that didn't mesh with those of the community, I wasn't torn to ribbons. And so we've gotten along. Sometimes, I just wish I could get inside others' heads to know what they're thinking, because they just...don't make sense. And those who're accusing the boards of being insular here are in that category right now.

'night, all.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 10, 2012, 03:49:59 AM
Jebus I hate airing this in public.

YES I have been verbally abused so badly I had to be talked down from suicide.  Not once, but several times.  Which is why I am pretty good at recognizing it.  No, it was not my parents, it was an employer.  Which is why I am good in recognizing it in an authority figure, or someone who fancies himself as an authority figure.

Happy now?
Not really, that kind of breaks me heart.  Hugs for you, VV.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Teege on October 10, 2012, 03:53:16 AM
What Emu said. Nobody deserves that.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on October 10, 2012, 04:34:44 AM
Aw, thanks! But it's kittens. I don't have a good recipe for puppies.

THAT'S DISGUSTING! Everyone knows cats don't taste good till...at least 2 years old.  Too far?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 04:49:35 AM
I have a great recipe for baby, does that count?

I love babies, but I can never finish a whole one.*  Anyone wanta split?






*Alas!  Not mine!  From a cartoon called "Reboots"
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Minotaur on October 10, 2012, 11:12:18 AM
*climbs the Eiffel tower, while wearing lederhosen, wooden clogs, carrying an Italian phrasebook and sipping tea*

Bollocks,  cuppa tea, Bonjour, snog , shag, toodles, slaaaaaag, chuffed, lush, minted, wie gehts, macaroni, hilarious slang word for cigarette, fish n' chips.

Hey!  Apparently so.

:p

A Hungarian phrasebook would perhaps be more appropriate :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Quinch on October 10, 2012, 11:29:38 AM
*Alas!  Not mine!  From a cartoon called "Reboots"

Reboots? There was more than one?

Why the heck did Tony Jay have to bite it?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: pandora114 on October 10, 2012, 11:45:13 AM
Reboot was made by a Canadian company!

<3 Reboot

*waves flag*
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 10, 2012, 12:10:03 PM
Oddly enough, in my "Cliche`d Villainy Cookbook," the recipe I use for kittens is called "Puss In Reboots." There is probably some sort of conspiracy.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: fuzzympb on October 10, 2012, 02:39:24 PM
Hey folks!
There's a lot going on here, and a lot of anger. I'm going to try to go in a slightly different direction if I may for a moment.
In response to NCSoft, I've sent in my capes with letters. I've been posting on my FB page regularly about the situation and trying to raise awareness there, and when I go to work, I've started to leave a toon logged in standing Vigil.
What other ideas do folks have?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 10, 2012, 03:14:28 PM
Hey folks!
There's a lot going on here, and a lot of anger. I'm going to try to go in a slightly different direction if I may for a moment.
In response to NCSoft, I've sent in my capes with letters. I've been posting on my FB page regularly about the situation and trying to raise awareness there, and when I go to work, I've started to leave a toon logged in standing Vigil.
What other ideas do folks have?
I suggest looking here (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5631.0.html) for some of our biggest current projects.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Nafaustu on October 10, 2012, 03:27:36 PM
Hey folks!
There's a lot going on here, and a lot of anger. I'm going to try to go in a slightly different direction if I may for a moment.
In response to NCSoft, I've sent in my capes with letters. I've been posting on my FB page regularly about the situation and trying to raise awareness there, and when I go to work, I've started to leave a toon logged in standing Vigil.
What other ideas do folks have?

We have some people who are going to be kind enough to go to Cons in costume (well, some in costume) and hand out flyers in the real world.   We've also got some keen events lined up on the 20th to raise awareness.   I'm working on a big 'read this/mission statement thing' to help orient our new folks, but its going to take me some time to get done.     It would be awesome to see you at the dance party on the 20th tho :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: fuzzympb on October 10, 2012, 03:47:41 PM
Indeed If I am in town on the 20th I will be there!
Currently I'm planning on being on a bit of a road trip though.
I *could* however, park myself in pocket-D in 'vigil' mode before
I hit the road right? I was present for the march and it was great to
see folks there for it :).
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 10, 2012, 10:48:08 PM
*cough*  Given the number of people who seem to be under the impression that I am here to collect sycophants and ego-strokes and throw my weight around, I hadn't said anything about this before...

But Larry and I are Special Guests of Honor at World Fantasy Con in Toronto http://www.wfc2012.org/ (http://www.wfc2012.org/) the first weekend in November.  Now...this thing is RIDICULOUSLY expensive to attend.  Truth to tell, I have never gone until now because it IS ridiculously expensive to attend.  I wouldn't suggest any of you come as attending members.  But I am going to have flyers printed up and pass them out at my autographings, and I *think* that an in-costume torch-bearing demonstration outside the hotel or in the hotel lobby would be all right.  I would email hotelliaison@wfc2012.org the hotel liaison or operations@wfc2012.org con operations to verify that this is ok with them.  And pending my schedule, I'll join you there.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 10, 2012, 10:56:35 PM
Sounds prestigious!
I think it's awesome that you'll be spreading the word there, VV.
And hopefully someone will take pictures if people are going to be torchbearing.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rubberlad on October 11, 2012, 12:01:16 AM
10 million years later and I finally got an evening free to properly register and show my support.

Thank you TonyV.
Thank you Victoria Victrix.
Thank you anyone and everyone who has taken the time to step forward and show their support.

Everyone's doing a great job and I look forward to helping support the Save Paragon City movement as best I can.

Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Terwyn on October 11, 2012, 12:20:25 AM
*cough*  Given the number of people who seem to be under the impression that I am here to collect sycophants and ego-strokes and throw my weight around, I hadn't said anything about this before...

But Larry and I are Special Guests of Honor at World Fantasy Con in Toronto http://www.wfc2012.org/ (http://www.wfc2012.org/) the first weekend in November.  Now...this thing is RIDICULOUSLY expensive to attend.  Truth to tell, I have never gone until now because it IS ridiculously expensive to attend.  I wouldn't suggest any of you come as attending members.  But I am going to have flyers printed up and pass them out at my autographings, and I *think* that an in-costume torch-bearing demonstration outside the hotel or in the hotel lobby would be all right.  I would email hotelliaison@wfc2012.org the hotel liaison or operations@wfc2012.org con operations to verify that this is ok with them.  And pending my schedule, I'll join you there.

Hey, that's not at all far from where I live. If I'm available, I might be able to take part.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 11, 2012, 12:54:57 AM
Hey, that's not at all far from where I live. If I'm available, I might be able to take part.

I'm not a local (obviously, Oklahoma is a looooong way from Toronto) so someone else would have to do the torchy demonstration organization (and make sure it is OK to do in the first place).
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Kheprera on October 11, 2012, 01:29:45 AM
Right.  Before *any* demonstration be sure to check city ordinances to see if permits are required.  Don't want any of us ending up in the pokey due to papework.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eeek on October 11, 2012, 11:15:14 AM
I am having visions of masked, spandex-clad superheroes holding Styrofoam torches being led away in handcuffs, in mid-day downtown Toronto, and giggling to myself.   ;D


Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 11, 2012, 10:44:19 PM
I am having visions of masked, spandex-clad superheroes holding Styrofoam torches being led away in handcuffs, in mid-day downtown Toronto, and giggling to myself.   ;D
Well, it'd certainly make headlines.  But I doubt that those individuals want to be arrested.  Check it, haha.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: JaguarX on October 11, 2012, 11:11:04 PM
*cough*  Given the number of people who seem to be under the impression that I am here to collect sycophants and ego-strokes and throw my weight around, I hadn't said anything about this before...

But Larry and I are Special Guests of Honor at World Fantasy Con in Toronto http://www.wfc2012.org/ (http://www.wfc2012.org/) the first weekend in November.  I *think* that an in-costume torch-bearing demonstration outside the hotel or in the hotel lobby would Now...this thing is RIDICULOUSLY expensive to attend.  Truth to tell, I have never gone until now because it IS ridiculously expensive to attend.  I wouldn't suggest any of you come as attending members.  But I am going to have flyers printed up and pass them out at my autographings, and be all right.  I would email hotelliaison@wfc2012.org the hotel liaison or operations@wfc2012.org con operations to verify that this is ok with them.  And pending my schedule, I'll join you there.


Congrats, but according to website it's only 250CDN to attend it is not bad at all  considering still probably have to get there and find a hotel, maybe $600-$1000 for room and board and gas to get around total for the duration. I might be looking at the wrong spot on the website. It seems as if they are full and went into waiting list status. It would cost me more than $250 to get to Toronto from here even if I was able take off work and attend.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: srmalloy on October 12, 2012, 03:00:34 AM
But that's not the case with CoH. There's been no bad blood, no reason to save face, no reason...for anything at all really. The game wasn't costing the company money, it wasn't an advertising/marketing sink, it wasn't going to imminently collapse...there seemed every reason for Kim to continue supporting CoH as he had done before - one might even say more reason to carry on that support, because unlike Tabula Rasa, there'd been no high profile game development delay/lower than expected subs/game closure/court case fiasco attached.

There is, at least to my perception, a strong issue of face in the closing of CoH. The style of MMO that is popular in Korea is almost the complete antithesis of City of Heroes -- they virtually require grouping for most of the advancement, players can expect to farm encounters over and over again for a single rare or ultra-rare drop that only that encounter gives, and you are on a continual cycle of replacing your gear with better gear as you level, because things you had at level 1 are useless against level 50 mobs. And NCSoft keeps bringing these types of game to the Western market. They experience an initial rush of players interested in the "new shiny", which tapers off as people become frustrated with how much grinding it takes to get any significant advancement.

Meanwhile, over here, we've got City of Heroes. It's not a blockbuster -- a superhero MMO is a niche market among the endless variations on fantasy. And it died badly in Korea because the players didn't like it. But it's been going along in the Western market, turning a reasonably steady profit.

And because it continues to succeed, however modestly, while the Korean-style MMOs that NCSoft brings to the Western market lose popularity and die, CoH has become an embarrassment to NCSoft. Essentially, with the MMOs that NCSoft has brought to the Western market only to see them fail, NCSoft is going the same thing over and over again in the hope that the result will be different this time. And with them also running another game that is a success, while being almost the polar opposite of the games they keep pushing at the Western market, it demonstrates their lack of nunchi -- their inability or unwillingness to see and respond to what the Western market wants in an MMO.

By killing City of Heroes, NCSoft removes a gigantic zit on their face. With CoH gone, NCSoft can continue to bring one Korean-style MMO after another to the Western market, and if they don't succeed, NCSoft can use the convenient fiction that it's the subject of the game, not the content and play style, that is making them fail. All NCSoft has to do is find the right subject for an MMO, and the Western market will fall in love with it and flock to it in droves, and they'll recognize the inherent superiority of the Korean-style MMO and branch out to playing NCSoft's other MMOs.

And if NCSoft sells City of Heroes, now that they've cancelled it, they stand to lose even more face -- if the company that buys it increases the profits, then it makes NCSoft look stupid for having sold a profitable fproperty.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 12, 2012, 03:45:39 AM
You know... and this could be the "Segev shouldn't be posting this late at night" level of bad idea...

But if srmalloy's analysis is accurate, what would the consequences - to NCSoft and to us as those pointing it out - be if we were to broadcast this theory as a blatant accusation of their inept and destructive attempts to hide incompetence?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 12, 2012, 03:55:25 AM
There is, at least to my perception, a strong issue of face in the closing of CoH. The style of MMO that is popular in Korea is almost the complete antithesis of City of Heroes -- they virtually require grouping for most of the advancement, players can expect to farm encounters over and over again for a single rare or ultra-rare drop that only that encounter gives, and you are on a continual cycle of replacing your gear with better gear as you level, because things you had at level 1 are useless against level 50 mobs. And NCSoft keeps bringing these types of game to the Western market. They experience an initial rush of players interested in the "new shiny", which tapers off as people become frustrated with how much grinding it takes to get any significant advancement.

Meanwhile, over here, we've got City of Heroes. It's not a blockbuster -- a superhero MMO is a niche market among the endless variations on fantasy. And it died badly in Korea because the players didn't like it. But it's been going along in the Western market, turning a reasonably steady profit.

And because it continues to succeed, however modestly, while the Korean-style MMOs that NCSoft brings to the Western market lose popularity and die, CoH has become an embarrassment to NCSoft. Essentially, with the MMOs that NCSoft has brought to the Western market only to see them fail, NCSoft is going the same thing over and over again in the hope that the result will be different this time. And with them also running another game that is a success, while being almost the polar opposite of the games they keep pushing at the Western market, it demonstrates their lack of nunchi -- their inability or unwillingness to see and respond to what the Western market wants in an MMO.

By killing City of Heroes, NCSoft removes a gigantic zit on their face. With CoH gone, NCSoft can continue to bring one Korean-style MMO after another to the Western market, and if they don't succeed, NCSoft can use the convenient fiction that it's the subject of the game, not the content and play style, that is making them fail. All NCSoft has to do is find the right subject for an MMO, and the Western market will fall in love with it and flock to it in droves, and they'll recognize the inherent superiority of the Korean-style MMO and branch out to playing NCSoft's other MMOs.

And if NCSoft sells City of Heroes, now that they've cancelled it, they stand to lose even more face -- if the company that buys it increases the profits, then it makes NCSoft look stupid for having sold a profitable fproperty.

This is both fascinating and horrifying.  I hope we can make not selling it far more expensive in terms of face than sitting on it forever.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Terwyn on October 12, 2012, 03:58:41 AM
This is both fascinating and horrifying.  I hope we can make not selling it far more expensive in terms of face than sitting on it forever.

We are certainly heading that way.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: SithRose on October 12, 2012, 05:50:54 AM
We are certainly heading that way.

That IS the general idea...We're now operating on Plan B implementation.

We've still got 24 letters to go....
(Uh...what exactly ARE plans D-Y, anyhow? I think Plan C is temporary private servers with reverse-engineered code...)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Quinch on October 12, 2012, 05:55:59 AM
Maybe we should give those plans actual names?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: HEATSTROKE on October 12, 2012, 12:56:34 PM
I am hoping November 1st is a day that will bring some news that can rally the troops. Im hoping at this point that Paragon Studios forms their own group and starts work immediately on their own projects. That I believe would keep the community together and excited. I just do see NC Soft selling the IP. I see them just making it difficult for ANYONE to acquire it.. Not even with monetary demands but with legal mumbo jumbo..

I will never ever ever ever support NC Soft/Nexon again.

You broke my heart Fredo.. you broke my heart..
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: JetFlash on October 12, 2012, 01:02:21 PM
Essentially, with the MMOs that NCSoft has brought to the Western market only to see them fail, NCSoft is going the same thing over and over again in the hope that the result will be different this time.


Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is one definition of insanity.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Turjan on October 12, 2012, 01:11:30 PM
There is, at least to my perception, a strong issue of face in the closing of CoH. The style of MMO that is popular in Korea is almost the complete antithesis of City of Heroes,
A valid point - in lieu of anything approaching logic or rationality on NCSoft's part (because they certainly haven't shown any) I've considered whether the whole thing might be a face-saving exercise.

Then I thought of Nexon.
As I discovered, NCSoft's CEO sold 2/3 of his own stake in NCSoft directly to Nexon, so it would only be fair of us to regard Nexon as a player here too. After all, selling that much stock could be interpreted as 'losing face' if we chose to look at it that way, but I'm assuming it's not regarded as such in Korea otherwise it likely wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Nexon seem to be keen on expanding into the MMO world in the west (they do own and run Maple Story, which has quite a following in the west) - even to the point that Nexon America's CEO effectively said "bring it on!" in a recent interview when asked about competing in the west with and against western titles. So surely what they'd WANT in the western would actually be the antithesis of a Korean grindy MMO? And why fight for a market share when your new best friend NCSoft has already had a foot in the door of a uniquelly western genre for eight years? Surely acknowledging CoH as a slice of Korean-run success in the western world would be an act of gaining face because a Korean company would be beating the west at its own game...wouldn't it?
Once again, there's no logic in their action.

Quote
And if NCSoft sells City of Heroes, now that they've cancelled it, they stand to lose even more face -- if the company that buys it increases the profits, then it makes NCSoft look stupid for having sold a profitable property.
That's certainly a logical reason to hang on to the IP - one of many in fact. As I said in a post yesterday, the more I look at it, the more reasons I find for keeping CoH alive rather than closing it down. But once that decision was made, there's a lot of logic to NCSoft retaining the IP. It's just the closure itself that's completely illogical, even as an exercise in saving face.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 12, 2012, 02:52:23 PM
That IS the general idea...We're now operating on Plan B implementation.

We've still got 24 letters to go....
(Uh...what exactly ARE plans D-Y, anyhow? I think Plan C is temporary private servers with reverse-engineered code...)
Plan A was essentially "convince NCsoft to let the IP go to Clayton and the former Paragon developers".  They appear not to have taken us up on that option.

Plan B was then "convince NCsoft to let the IP go to some development studio that would keep the game alive".  They also appear not to have taken us up on that option.  We are, however still following through on this one right now by continuing to make noise and make that decision as costly as possible while still leaving the door open for them to change their minds.  Operation: Noisemaker, if you will.

Plan C is somewhere in the middle of "reverse engineer everything."  We can think of this as Operation: Blackbox.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: jamvaru on October 12, 2012, 03:52:32 PM
Why didn't they ever merge some servers?  Or did they?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Codewalker on October 12, 2012, 03:58:18 PM
Why didn't they ever merge some servers?  Or did they?

Because ever since the servers were relocated when Freedom launched, they've been virtualized. So the server hardware required is now directly proportional to the number of people logged into the game in general. The actual number of shards those people are divided onto doesn't make much of a difference.

(This was deduced by a few of us by observing the performance characteristics after they were moved, and was later confirmed in one of the twitch.tv streams when they had on the person who coordinates with the server techs)

Heck, with virtual servers, it's entirely possible that the same physical server might be supporting COH players and GW2 players, reallocating resources as needed.

The only thing merging them would do is very slightly reduce the amount of work it takes to do server maintenance, and possibly reduce OS licensing costs if they're using a support agreement rather than just buying the licenses outright. Putting everybody on one 'server' wouldn't free up any hardware. Given how the COH engine scales rather poorly with the number of players in a zone, it might even make it take up MORE resources than having the players separated.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 12, 2012, 04:00:36 PM
Why didn't they ever merge some servers?  Or did they?
They didn't. I think the process of doing so would be pure loss of profit for them the way they have the servers set up.  Specifically, as I'm led to believe, the "servers" (which they refer to as "shards") are not physically separated.  They are just separated by software emulation.  They might have two racks of hardware sitting next to each other and Virtue's Atlas Park and Triumph's Peregrine Island might be running on one while Virtue's Talos Island and Freedom's Port Oakes might be running on the other.  Any consolidation would require moving characters from one database to another in order to eliminate a shard, but since the overall load on the physical servers wouldn't change, they wouldn't be able to squeeze any cost savings out of the consolidation.

They'd be better off letting players pay to transfer characters between shards (money coming in for transfer fees) and not paying someone to handle consolidating databases for shards (money going out.)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 12, 2012, 06:43:49 PM
Huh... that's interesting. I haven't been keeping up with the tech end of things much. I always had the image in my head that each server had it's own "box" or hard drive that it operated from. Maybe that was true in the early days, but not anymore apparently.

(And since I am "tech-geeking" just a bit here, if we follow this tangent much further, we might want to move it to another discussion thread. Just saying. )

One thing I have consistently heard since I started paying attention is that the code for the game is a real tangled patchwork affair. How bad is it to work with? Did that come about because so much has been added to the original Issue 1 release?

Bases for example hardly ever got any love, and I kept hearing rumors that the original person(s) who built that code had left the company and the documentation on the base code was sparse and thus hard to work with.

And of course adding PVP elements to a game that originally didn't have that option had to have done weird things to it.

In fact now that I think about it - I can't recall ever hearing of ANY other MMO that didn't have PVP when it launched and then had it added later! In fact, COH seems to have been unique in not launching with PVP at all! Even Champions, which does not have villains as player characters, has dueling and PVP elements out of the box.

(Just another way CoH is special, even if it was also frustrating at times. *sigh*  You know what they say - we like people for their qualities but we love them for their defects. )

So - just in layman's terms, how difficult is it going to be to reverse engineer this lovable monstrosity? I mean - 23/24 issues of stuff added on to the original engine and all - can you look at it as it appears now? Or do you have to start from the base code and work up? Or work down? Or... heck - not really even sure how to word it really. Sorry!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 12, 2012, 06:49:01 PM
Reverse engineered code would ironically probably be cleaner. The reason is that reverse engineering requires not examining existing code at all, but instead looking at end results and attempting to replicate them. Taking CoH as a whole as it is now and building code that duplicates that may well lead to far more organized code than the "organic" mass that the legacy code reputedly is.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Codewalker on October 12, 2012, 07:10:29 PM
What Segev said. Starting at say, Issue 24, and building something for that would be considerably less work than building something for the state of the game at launch, and 'inventing' all of the additions since then.

Still a ton of work, mind you, but less.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Tannim222 on October 12, 2012, 07:52:16 PM
Another reason for the "mess of code" given in the coffee talks is due to a lack of or very poor documentation on various systems, forcing one or more people to dig into one or more systems to figure something out. Which could result in a large amount of time for a single feature, time that could be used more wisely for one or more features instead.

This is why there was often a request for new tech to implement additional features, because adding the tech could often times be easier than trying to wrangle what you want to happen with the existing tech. I forget who was mentioned, but one dev apparently had a real good handle on the engine and was doing stuff with it many didn't think possible.

I think it was Posi (I could be wrong here) who mentioned how they implemented a new documentation procedure so if someone left, the new person coming in would have something to go back to in order to understand the hows and whys of how a system operated instead of having to dig into it and figure it out all over again. This is something those developing the PlanZ systems should keep in mind, lessons learned from an experienced staff.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 12, 2012, 08:38:03 PM
I think it was Posi (I could be wrong here) who mentioned how they implemented a new documentation procedure so if someone left, the new person coming in would have something to go back to in order to understand the hows and whys of how a system operated instead of having to dig into it and figure it out all over again. This is something those developing the PlanZ systems should keep in mind, lessons learned from an experienced staff.
I could go to town on documentation policy and procedure (one of the two things I do best at work), but I'd probably chase away at least half the people interested in working on Plan Z.  :)

(Anyone I didn't scare off would still hate me.)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Tannim222 on October 12, 2012, 09:19:29 PM
I could probably do that as well. I've plenty of experience in PnP from years of work in health insurance. I've seen what heavy documentation for a small game, such as Mahjong (sp?) looks like. The printed version was thicker than The Stand. But it is very important to have particularly when projects can end up being managed by new hands, or when a project effects multiple teams / departments.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: SithRose on October 12, 2012, 09:36:46 PM
I could go to town on documentation policy and procedure (one of the two things I do best at work), but I'd probably chase away at least half the people interested in working on Plan Z.  :)

(Anyone I didn't scare off would still hate me.)

Ahem. If you scare them off by wanting them to document what they're doing...

Were they that useful in the first place? :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 13, 2012, 12:21:46 AM
I could go to town on documentation policy and procedure (one of the two things I do best at work), but I'd probably chase away at least half the people interested in working on Plan Z.  :)

(Anyone I didn't scare off would still hate me.)

You mean document the thought process or document the plan itself?

Unfortunately (or not), it seems like half of the Plan Z volunteers right now are writers. The writers are documenting everything.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 13, 2012, 12:29:35 AM
You mean document the thought process or document the plan itself?

Unfortunately (or not), it seems like half of the Plan Z volunteers right now are writers. The writers are documenting everything.
I'm fairly certain he means he would write up the rules for documenting and commenting code, version changes, etc. From how he's talking about how he'd do it, it would be a very rigorous and painstaking standard that he would create.

This would be good for future coders and the like, but painful for those actually working on it and creating it to adhere to.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 13, 2012, 12:37:58 AM
I could go to town on documentation policy and procedure (one of the two things I do best at work), but I'd probably chase away at least half the people interested in working on Plan Z.  :)

(Anyone I didn't scare off would still hate me.)

Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.

Because I was very good at documenting code, mediocre at programming, I actually offered to my former bosses that if they would move me to my very own department of "Code Documentation" I would undertake to do ALL of the documentation from that moment on...and when I wasn't working on programs about to be implemented, would dig in and document the old stuff.  That's the sort of person Plan Z needs.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 13, 2012, 12:47:32 AM
Are you volunteering, VV? >_> <_<
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 13, 2012, 12:48:34 AM
Are you volunteering, VV? >_> <_<

You know, I would, but the only thing I can read is Assembler.  Anything else might as well be Urdu.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 13, 2012, 01:16:56 AM
Total side-story here, but felt like sharing with all you coders who'll know the pain.

A friend of mine was in a comp sci class taught by a Grad TA who had his own preference for how variables should be named...and it was abysmal. He liked A, B, C, D, X, Y, Z... you know, just plain letters. He didn't necessarily insist that the students do it that way, but he wrote his own sample code that way and insisted that as long as variables are unique it doesn't matter what they're called, shut up you ignorant undergrad.

So my friend, in a fit of pique, made sure that one of his coding assignments worked perfectly so that there could be no marking off for not being able to figure out why it wasn't working. He then did a find/replace on each variable, making them all exactly 7 characters long...and unique combinations of "1" and "l"

The font for their text editor did not differentiate those nearly as well as this forum's font does.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Manga on October 13, 2012, 01:22:41 AM
Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.

And documenting another programmer's code is harder than it looks, and highly error-prone.  About half the time, you look at code someone else wrote and think it does one thing, when it actually does something else, or multiple things, or it sets up for another event to happen down the line that you don't know about yet.

I had the "pleasure" of dealing with that recently when I had to repair code for an iOS app that was done by...ahem...several programmers in India.  I'd fix and document one part, it would break something else.  I would fix that, and it would break another thing.  It turned a quick fix project into a several week project, and the person who hired me for the project was not happy.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 13, 2012, 01:23:51 AM
get the reference books out then!

*Looks at the number of projects due and their due-dates.*

*Laughs hysterically.*
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: SithRose on October 13, 2012, 01:56:10 AM
I'm fairly certain he means he would write up the rules for documenting and commenting code, version changes, etc. From how he's talking about how he'd do it, it would be a very rigorous and painstaking standard that he would create.

This would be good for future coders and the like, but painful for those actually working on it and creating it to adhere to.

They can suffer. :) Pain is good for the spirit. And it's in a noble cause. :)

Cry "Document" and let slip the leash of eabrace! (OK, so it's not quite the right meter...)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 13, 2012, 02:08:05 AM
Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.

Because I was very good at documenting code, mediocre at programming, I actually offered to my former bosses that if they would move me to my very own department of "Code Documentation" I would undertake to do ALL of the documentation from that moment on...and when I wasn't working on programs about to be implemented, would dig in and document the old stuff.  That's the sort of person Plan Z needs.

Documenting your code is very important on large projects. Especially if multiple people are working on it and if it is a project that needs to be sustainable for years. Programmers come and go and without proper documentaion the new ones are simply gonna be lost. It will be a waste so much time with them trying to figure out what something does when that could have been prevented. Definately need it documented.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Profit on October 13, 2012, 02:24:02 AM
So awesome. Buy him a beer for me.

Total side-story here, but felt like sharing with all you coders who'll know the pain.

A friend of mine was in a comp sci class taught by a Grad TA who had his own preference for how variables should be named...and it was abysmal. He liked A, B, C, D, X, Y, Z... you know, just plain letters. He didn't necessarily insist that the students do it that way, but he wrote his own sample code that way and insisted that as long as variables are unique it doesn't matter what they're called, shut up you ignorant undergrad.

So my friend, in a fit of pique, made sure that one of his coding assignments worked perfectly so that there could be no marking off for not being able to figure out why it wasn't working. He then did a find/replace on each variable, making them all exactly 7 characters long...and unique combinations of "1" and "l"

The font for their text editor did not differentiate those nearly as well as this forum's font does.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 13, 2012, 06:10:10 AM
Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.

Because I was very good at documenting code, mediocre at programming, I actually offered to my former bosses that if they would move me to my very own department of "Code Documentation" I would undertake to do ALL of the documentation from that moment on...and when I wasn't working on programs about to be implemented, would dig in and document the old stuff.  That's the sort of person Plan Z needs.
See, most of the software I've been involved in being safety critical systems, requirements are written first.  Those are an art form unto themselves since they all have to be written to state "what" the software does without stating how, and they all need to be absolutely verifiable by an independent tester before they can be approved (e.g. you can't make something "bigger" unless you specify exact sizes and tolerances; if 8 possible logic combinations exist, there needs to be a clear understanding of the behavior for all 8 cases; etc.).  Test engineers, design engineers, systems engineers, and the software engineers that will be handling the code all provide feedback and nothing is approved until everyone likes what they see.

Then the design documents are written, and if there isn't a requirement for it, it had better not show up in the design.  Conversely, if there's a requirement for something, that had better show up in the design.  But the design can be written (implemented) in any way that makes sense to the designer, so long as the person that wrote the requirements can parse it for review and the person who is going to implement the code can understand what the code needs to do.  The design tells us what the code will do, but again, leaves "how" up to the person that gets to implement it.  Design is approved only when requirements, design, and code all like what they see.

Code implements the function of the design in whatever manner they find most efficient.  Similar to the relationship between requirements and design, if it isn't in the design document, it had better not be in the code.  And if it is in the design document, it had better be in the code.  Code is peer reviewed by other code writers and unit tested (unit tests are also reviewed) before being passed along to the build team.

When a build is put together, the build team captures a snapshot of all the functional code and documentation and builds the whole thing from scratch.  After some quick checks (does it execute?) they pass the code back to the design engineers.

Design engineers then run the code on the hardware to integrate the design.  When they are confident that every logical path defined in the design functions as intended, they pass the code off to the testers.

Testers then go through formal testing of the software at the requirements level.  Automation is the goal here since every defined test is run on every build.  If it can't be automated, it has to be done by hand - on every build.

The software is then passed up to the systems group who tests it at the system requirements level.  Once they're happy with it, the software is released.

Some people familiar with code production will be picturing a classic waterfall at this point - which is close - but there's a key difference that makes all of this more efficient:  At any stage, any problem can be flagged and passed back to the previous group.  However many steps it takes, when the original source of the issue is found, that gets fixed and then the fix ripples back through the process again.  So, if a tester finds a problem and they determine that the test is meeting the intent of the requirement but the requirement was incorrectly interpreted by the design, there might be a fix to the requirement to make it less ambiguous, a fix to the design to align to the requirement change, the fix to the code to meet the new design, unit testing, integration, and finally back to testing again.

Having worked in a slightly more "traditional" code-oriented group that prefers to use Agile code development in scrum fashion and fill in documentation after the fact for the last few years, I know how insane the structured process I'm used to can drive some coders.  What they seem not to get is that by the time the design gets to them to code, all they have to think about is how to best implement the code for efficiency.  I find it's generally management that lacks the patience for the system, though.  They like to see results up front, but that process is geared heavily toward showing few results up front and making up for it in the back end with fast and tight implementation and very little effort required to maintain the code.  I get Agile, but since I come from computer engineering and not from computer science, not having pre-existing documentation is the bane of my existence.  I'll eventually get the general idea of what someone else's code is doing, but it'll take me weeks to understand what they might have written in a day, and I probably won't ever fully grasp all of the intricacies.

I tend to drive computer science guys wearing the "software engineer" title absolutely insane.  :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 13, 2012, 01:42:24 PM
Seeing as that sounds suspiciously like the official process for implementing things where I work, it looks like a good process to me. The key is to make sure that controls and systems are repeatable and verifiable without making them bureaucracy-for-the-sake-of-bureaucracy. That's where good management comes in.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 13, 2012, 04:10:58 PM
I'm just really really glad that we have as many professional coders as we do, here! :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: jamvaru on October 13, 2012, 06:04:17 PM
lol, this thread should be closed

we all agree NCSoft doesn't deserve our money anymore (I tried Aion last night; man it was a bear to get installed and to get registered, but I finally did it, because Curse gave me a 'pet' egg... still haven't hatched the egg, but it was interesting, had some good qualities)

about the 'petition' ... it would be nice if NCSoft would simply do SOMEthing with CoH.  They don't want to because they are focusing on new games and also don't want players who aren't interested in their new products.

NCSoft can do something.  They can consolidate all the servers into one and keep it running just for the fun of it.  They don't even have to have anybody employed except for one tech guy who has an additional title of 'CoH monitor'.  If the server needs burping or something.  So, they would have to pay for electricity and bandwidth, and the occasional hardware fix or bug correction.  Sounds pretty easy to me, for a multimilliondollar company.

So, in the interest of fairness, what would you suggest NCSoft do with CoH that would make sense to them?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: chaparralshrub on October 13, 2012, 07:18:22 PM
lol, this thread should be closed

we all agree NCSoft doesn't deserve our money anymore (I tried Aion last night; man it was a bear to get installed and to get registered, but I finally did it, because Curse gave me a 'pet' egg... still haven't hatched the egg, but it was interesting, had some good qualities)

about the 'petition' ... it would be nice if NCSoft would simply do SOMEthing with CoH.  They don't want to because they are focusing on new games and also don't want players who aren't interested in their new products.

NCSoft can do something.  They can consolidate all the servers into one and keep it running just for the fun of it.  They don't even have to have anybody employed except for one tech guy who has an additional title of 'CoH monitor'.  If the server needs burping or something.  So, they would have to pay for electricity and bandwidth, and the occasional hardware fix or bug correction.  Sounds pretty easy to me, for a multimilliondollar company.

So, in the interest of fairness, what would you suggest NCSoft do with CoH that would make sense to them?


Actually, here's a whacky idea. Cryptic still advertises CoH on its website, as a spectacular example of one of their past successes. Maybe we could convince NCSoft to do the same? That would accomplish their presumed goal of CoH being in the past (for them), but something to remember fondly as they forge ahead... while at the same time keeping it alive in another studio.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 13, 2012, 11:49:51 PM
So, in the interest of fairness, what would you suggest NCSoft do with CoH that would make sense to them?

STOP LYING TO US.  We're not Koreans, we don't need face-saving nonsense.

Work with us.  CoH is NEVER going to be a rival to anything they do *sniggerBoobsandShamegiggle* in the West.  OK you want to get a tax write off, TELL US.  Then tell us if in the next fiscal year you WILL sell.  Then tell us HOW MUCH YOU WANT.  Let us do the work of getting someone interested.  And even if you don't love Paragon (though I don't know why you wouldn't, since we're the ones applying cattle prods, not them) give them a fair chance at buying it back.

There.  Is that so hard?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Turjan on October 14, 2012, 01:47:04 AM
STOP LYING TO US.

There.  Is that so hard?

(https://i.imgur.com/tniof.jpg)

...except just as poor Neo had to deal with the notion that "There is no spoon", we have to get our heads round "There WAS no reason to close CoH!" ???
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 14, 2012, 02:18:02 AM
I am hoping November 1st is a day that will bring some news that can rally the troops. Im hoping at this point that Paragon Studios forms their own group and starts work immediately on their own projects. That I believe would keep the community together and excited. I just don't see NC Soft selling the IP. I see them just making it difficult for ANYONE to acquire it.. Not even with monetary demands but with legal mumbo jumbo..

I will never ever ever ever support NC Soft/Nexon again.

You broke my heart Fredo.. you broke my heart..
Sadly, I have to agree - I don't see NCSoft selling the IP either...
So my hopes lie with Paragon Studios as well - and I pray they won't have to get into bed with one of the "mega corporations" out there to realize their next project, if there is going to be one indeed.

Quote
EA refutes Oddworld creator's claims that it tried to buy his team and suggests Lithium to help with his "paranoia and Tourette syndrome."
 
Lorne Lanning has been an exciting interviewee these past few days. Talking at the Eurogamer expo, the Oddworld creator heavily implied that EA had run into trouble with Russian gangsters over the title of Stranger's Wrath. Later, during an interview with Gamesindustry international, he recounted how he bravely turned down an acquisition offer from EA.
 
"When you say that to us we go 'fuck you very much', quite frankly. That's not a sustainable model, that's a hostile acquisition," Lanning said. "That's why we had to strive to get independent. Rather than get into bed with someone we knew was a horrible bed partner we said 'let's stay virgins for longer'." Here's where things get exciting: EA says that never happened, and responded to Lanning's comments with a statement that some may find inappropriate.
 
"We wish Lorne luck on the game and recommend Lithium for the paranoia and Tourette Syndrome," said EA's corporate spokesman, Jeff Brown. "Nobody here remembers a jet, a Ferrari or an offer to buy his company."

I hope more companies will be able to give the big publishers a similar response as Lanning did to EA, and the rise of the "Indies" will continue.
Heck, even Peter Molyneux left Lionhead Studios and founded his own studio - letting him escape Microsoft's hold.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 14, 2012, 02:27:00 AM
That's a very interesting response from EA.  I have known several people who worked for EA, and the impression I got from them is that "lying like a rug" is part of the company MO.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 14, 2012, 02:30:13 AM
If there is any company arguably worse than NCSoft, it's EA.

NCSoft I see as just provincial, clueless, and needlessly obtuse in it's dealings with the west.

What's YOUR excuse, EA?

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 14, 2012, 02:32:55 AM
That's a very interesting response from EA.  I have known several people who worked for EA, and the impression I got from them is that "lying like a rug" is part of the company MO.
I feel for them, if EA treats its employees the same way it does its developer studios and customers...
And it seems that's one more thing they and NCSoft have in common.

If there is any company arguably worse than NCSoft, it's EA.
NCSoft I see as just provincial, clueless, and needlessly obtuse in it's dealings with the west.

What's YOUR excuse, EA?

As shown recently, pretty much the whole world agrees with you there, Atlantea!
I'm sure that Bioware's founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk retiring had absolutely nothing to do with EA's acquiring of the company only a few years earlier. >.>
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: GoreckiMike on October 14, 2012, 02:34:41 AM
As a Sr. Solutions Architect, I have both Reviewed code and had to Document, Undocumented code. It is difficult, but not impossible; the trick is all in the Context that you create the documentation.

Whats are the Classes used to create the S/W; What are the Attributes & Methods; Inheritance & Augments? Creating documentation for S/W is not to write what you think the Coder tried to code, but what the Methods & Functions are doing. What does the D/B look like? How is the Persistence handled; Cache handled? Security,... etc.

Many times the "Forrest" is easier to document then the "Trees".

My $0.02.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 14, 2012, 02:13:19 PM
Wouldn't that be documenting the "trees" though? It seems to me the "forest" is "here's what the code is meant to be doing," whereas "trees" are "here is what each individual component does."
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Mister Bison on October 14, 2012, 05:35:30 PM
Sometimes you don't need to see code being operations and variables. A normally constituted programmer should have organized its code a bit, the "everything in a single header" is a myth. Software code is just like that, you don't get to the assembly language, you look at keywords and variables, where the only thing the CPU should comprehend are memory adresses and opcodes.

Eabrace analysis sounds applicable. You've basically got 3 levels of making a program (but for basically anything): what it semantically does to the outside of it, what it semantically does in the inside, and how technically it does them inside. That's requirement, design, and implementation. You don't need a lot of documentation for each of them when you've got all of them, since what it does to the outside should be a single or handful of purposes, then each of these gets at most as much inside. And when you know what a software components does, seeing how it does it is generally easy just looking at the code, and when it's not, some comments here and there make it explicit. You're not going to explain old value:=new value in most cases, except when it does something unexpected.

Most of the headaches I've seen are due to not reading carefully the definitions and names given to the code. Most people don't read down to the last line. Back in my childhood, I was nearly the only child to actually read the manuals of the games, and my friends always asked me "how the hell did you know how to do that?". I also got a few things on the internet, but shush.

I think no programmer/engineer should be asked to do all the things at once, yet it's what is mostly done. Documenting, designing, implementing, optimizing, testing. Even if somebody is good at all of them, doing them all on a single project at the same time or back-to-back is excruciating. And some people are just really good at some of them, or it comes natural to them. Yet, everybody involved should be able to do all of these, just to be aware of what's the matter. You don't pick the work of a professional with no experience., you can still question them for insight though. "How can that be good ?" is always better to hear than "this is bad" (even if the second is far easier to output, blame the teachers we all had).
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: jamvaru on October 14, 2012, 06:48:34 PM
I think they should let us get a working copy of the game as is, a snapshot, and pay to keep it running ourselves.  They still own it, but we run it.  We can share the profits 50/50, if there are any.  Any profits should be applied to the game, as in fixes, manpower, etc.

so, anybody got an ear at NCSoft... we are willing to support a maintenance version of the game, whatever the cost (aren't we?)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: CapaDevans on October 14, 2012, 08:31:20 PM
What's the latest status?

Last I heard NC wasn't returning calls of potential investers and posting "We've exhausted all avenues". Has anything changed or are we going perma dark on 30th Nov?

(I've tried to keep track but I'm sure I must have missed SOMETHING because I find it hard to believe that's it.)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 14, 2012, 08:38:26 PM
What's the latest status?

Last I heard NC wasn't returning calls of potential investers and posting "We've exhausted all avenues". Has anything changed or are we going perma dark on 30th Nov?

(I've tried to keep track but I'm sure I must have missed SOMETHING because I find it hard to believe that's it.)

1) There are still attempts to contact NCSoft, and it's shareholders (Nexon being foremost among them) while people continue to raise awareness about our situation.
Hopefully they will eventually agree to sell the IP and CoH can continue under new management (well, or old management in a new jacket!)

2) We're hoping the former Paragon Studios devs will have more light to shed once November 1st comes to pass and they are allowed to speak (including news of possible future plans, such as a new project similar to CoH)

3) There's always "Plan Z", a spiritual successor to CoH made by the community (Titan's devs mostly, maybe with help from another studio, or some kind of backers)

So there definitely won't be a permanent going dark, something will eventually happen.
It's also important that we stick together as a community, so don't give up hope!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Globetrotter on October 14, 2012, 10:42:09 PM

So there definitely won't be a permanent going dark, something will eventually happen.
It's also important that we stick together as a community, so don't give up hope!

This keeps me going!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: srmalloy on October 15, 2012, 01:36:27 AM
Don't get me started on how programmers hate to document their code.  And how management hates to spend any money on getting documentation on existing code, despite the fact that well-documented code would cut down on the time spent altering existing systems by at least a third.
In my experience, it's not that programmers hate to document their code; it's that "We need you to go back and fully document this code" gets dropped in your lap as a requirement while your time is already fully occupied with writing the latest batch of code that got dropped in your lap, and if you take the time to document your code as you go, you get downchecked because you're taking too long to write your code.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Zolgar on October 15, 2012, 03:03:50 AM
(Uh...what exactly ARE plans D-Y, anyhow? I think Plan C is temporary private servers with reverse-engineered code...)

Plan Y is to build a super doomsday weapon and threaten to destroy the entire world if NCSoft doesn't sell CoH to Paragon Studios. >.>
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 15, 2012, 03:19:18 AM
Wait, I thought that was plan D. I am already half-finished!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 15, 2012, 03:20:13 AM
Wait, I thought that was plan D. I am already half-finished!
No, Plan D is to unleash Rularuu on the NCSoft HQ.....
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 15, 2012, 03:45:58 AM
Dagfirnit, I could've had him summoned and bound to service by now if somebody hadn't gotten the cue cards in the wrong order! *grumbles off to get to work*
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 15, 2012, 09:58:45 PM
No, Plan D is to unleash Rularuu on the NCSoft HQ.....

Time out, time out.

I thought plan D was the Death Star.

Or was that the Kraken?

Or the cave troll?

Ugh... we really need to get a day planner because this stuff is getting ridiculous.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DeathSentry on October 15, 2012, 10:13:16 PM
This is great news, thank you!!!

1) There are still attempts to contact NCSoft, and it's shareholders (Nexon being foremost among them) while people continue to raise awareness about our situation.
Hopefully they will eventually agree to sell the IP and CoH can continue under new management (well, or old management in a new jacket!)

2) We're hoping the former Paragon Studios devs will have more light to shed once November 1st comes to pass and they are allowed to speak (including news of possible future plans, such as a new project similar to CoH)

3) There's always "Plan Z", a spiritual successor to CoH made by the community (Titan's devs mostly, maybe with help from another studio, or some kind of backers)

So there definitely won't be a permanent going dark, something will eventually happen.
It's also important that we stick together as a community, so don't give up hope!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: V-Mink on October 15, 2012, 11:28:23 PM
Time out, time out.

I thought plan D was the Death Star.

Or was that the Kraken?

Or the cave unicorn?

I don't know about you, but the idea of a 'cave unicorn' scares the cape off of me.  Especially considering some of the caves we have in Paragon.  Just turning a corner and getting impaled by a unicorn's horn right though the [Symbol:Star 3]... brrr....
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 15, 2012, 11:44:36 PM
I don't know about you, but the idea of a 'cave unicorn' scares the cape off of me.  Especially considering some of the caves we have in Paragon.  Just turning a corner and getting impaled by a unicorn's horn right though the [Symbol:Star 3]... brrr....

If you're a virgin, you're perfectly safe.    ;D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 16, 2012, 12:46:37 AM
If you're a virgin, you're perfectly safe.    ;D
Yay! I'm safe!  8)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 16, 2012, 08:47:46 AM
If you're a virgin, you're perfectly safe.    ;D
Sure, only if you're female if I recall my unicorns correctly!
Of course in return you'll be the perfect target for all those crazy cultists looking for prime sacrifice material.  8)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Minotaur on October 16, 2012, 10:54:17 AM
If you're a virgin, you're perfectly safe.    ;D

Don't know if it's still the case but that word used to be profanity filtered in game. Amusing as Virgin are one of the largest ISPs in the UK.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 16, 2012, 11:05:48 AM
Don't know if it's still the case but that word used to be profanity filtered in game. Amusing as Virgin are one of the largest ISPs in the UK.
NCSoft must have something against Sir Branson! :O
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Triplash on October 16, 2012, 12:57:31 PM
Don't know if it's still the case but that word used to be profanity filtered in game.

So did Bruce Wayne's sidekick, Bleep Grayson.  :o

And yeah, it actually replaced the word with "bleep", not with asterisks. I nearly busted a gut laughing when I saw it, hehe.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: ukaserex on October 16, 2012, 09:21:17 PM
Total side-story here, but felt like sharing with all you coders who'll know the pain.

A friend of mine was in a comp sci class taught by a Grad TA who had his own preference for how variables should be named...and it was abysmal. He liked A, B, C, D, X, Y, Z... you know, just plain letters. He didn't necessarily insist that the students do it that way, but he wrote his own sample code that way and insisted that as long as variables are unique it doesn't matter what they're called, shut up you ignorant undergrad.

So my friend, in a fit of pique, made sure that one of his coding assignments worked perfectly so that there could be no marking off for not being able to figure out why it wasn't working. He then did a find/replace on each variable, making them all exactly 7 characters long...and unique combinations of "1" and "l"

The font for their text editor did not differentiate those nearly as well as this forum's font does.

wow, oh, wow!
I actually chuckled out loud.  ;D

I took some Java and C++ in grad school; I don't understand why programmers don't like to document their code. It's the easiest part. I have a hunch it has a something to do with fear. Fear of getting replaced. If your job is going to be outsourced to India, you may as well leave the next guy something to do after you've already solved the problem.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 16, 2012, 09:24:54 PM
I don't understand why programmers don't like to document their code. It's the easiest part. I have a hunch it has a something to do with fear. Fear of getting replaced. If your job is going to be outsourced to India, you may as well leave the next guy something to do after you've already solved the problem.
Laziness, mostly. Time crunch is the remainder.

When you're working on finding a bug, or figuring out why your experimental code isn't doing what you think it should do, and you've ripped out that block for the fourth time to replace it *here* and *there* in order to make it WORK, you aren't re-commenting every time because, frankly, you aren't sure it will still be what you're writing THIS time any more than it remained the LAST thing you made it.

And then, when you get it working, you're sick of it and possibly out of time. You don't want to go back and fix all your comments, combing through the code to figure out which ones are now wrong and where you haven't commented yet. And, at least in school, you often no longer have time before it must be turned in.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: therain93 on October 17, 2012, 08:29:57 PM
In response to NCsoft's communication on October 2 (http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.html), I want to start by saying yet again that I appreciate the support that NCsoft has given City of Heroes and its community for eight and a half years.  Throughout this entire ordeal, I have had the implicit understanding (and publicly stated (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=296714)) that without NCsoft supporting City of Heroes at the outset, there likely would not be a game for us to fight for.  We appreciate everything that NCsoft has done over the years to help build our community--things such as sponsoring conventions, meet-and-greets, and Player Summits; acquiring the intellectual property rights to City of Heroes from Cryptic Studios in 2007; and the financial support provided to Cryptic and to Paragon Studios as both were just starting out.  For years, NCsoft has embraced City of Heroes as an essential part of NCsoft and helped to build its community into the wonderful one it has become, and for that, we are grateful.

I am not sure what changed, what made NCsoft decide that City of Heroes and Paragon Studios no longer fits within the long term goals of NCsoft.  From multiple sources, it is my understanding that City of Heroes was still doing very well.  Indeed, looking at the data provided by NCsoft's earnings releases (http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx), City of Heroes seems to be a steady performer in the NCsoft portfolio, even better than games like Guild Wars, which has received a sequel and continues to be actively supported.  Nevertheless, it has never been my intention to question the business decisions made by NCsoft.  If NCsoft does not wish for City of Heroes to be part of its portfolio going forward for whatever reasons, then I will respect that decision.

However, I continue to strongly feel that NCsoft is not seriously considering the option of allowing the City of Heroes intellectual property and code to be acquired by a third party.  To be blunt, I do not understand how NCsoft can honestly claim that it has "exhausted all options."  As long as NCsoft owns the City of Heroes property, it always has the option of allowing it to be sold.  The only way that all options could possibly be exhausted is for a contract to be signed and the property transferred, at which time NCsoft would no longer have any say in the matter.

Perhaps the statement meant to say that NCsoft has exhausted all options it finds reasonable.  If so, then I still disagree.  While I do not know the details of negotiations that have been occurring between NCsoft and former members of Paragon Studios and/or other game publishers, I am aware that they have been taking place.  I find it impossible to believe that these studios and publishers have not been able to offer any reasonable offer for the property.  Also, I have reached out to NCsoft multiple times in an attempt to discuss the situation myself, to hopefully either make an offer on behalf of the game's players or, at the very least, to inform NCsoft of factors that need to be considered in negotiations with other studios.  With the exception of the legal department providing an e-mail address for players to express their thoughts to NCsoft, I have received no response to my communications.  If this is the case, then I strongly feel that NCsoft needs to seriously consider whether what it finds reasonable is, in fact, reasonable.

So I hope you understand that when I read that NCsoft feels that it has exhausted all options for keeping City of Heroes active, I find that statement disingenuous at best.

I feel that NCsoft is still looking at this issue as a question of, "What reasons do we have to sell City of Heroes?"  In my communications I have offered several, including the obvious answers of providing revenue for other projects and the positive public relations that would come from a game publisher working with a community to achieve something almost unprecedented in the industry: keeping a game alive even after its publisher feels that it is no longer part of its long term plans.  Maybe NCsoft feels that it has exhausted all options in coming up with answers to that question.

However, I think that an even more important question is: What reasons does NCsoft have to not sell City of Heroes?  Because this is the question that really has me scratching my head.  Are there legal issues?  Of course, but are they insurmountable?  Obviously not, as proven by the fact that NCsoft itself acquired complete ownership of the game in 2007 from Cryptic Studios.  Is NCsoft afraid that City of Heroes will become a competitor with the company's other titles?  Then hedge your risk by retaining an ownership stake in the title with no investment obligation.  If it performs well, everyone wins; if it does not, NCsoft has not lost anything.

Are there other issues that are preventing the sale?  If so, then tell us, and together we can figure out some way to work around it or compromise on a solution.  I currently work for one of the largest IT companies in the world, and my full time is dedicated to a client who is also one of the largest manufacturing companies in the world.  In my experience, there is no such thing as exhausting all possibilities in the business world.  When a company wants or needs something to happen, it happens.  When a company says that it has exhausted all possibilities, that means that it did not want or need it badly enough to continue trying.  To me, our current status is simply that we have not yet convinced NCsoft well enough that it wants to sell City of Heroes.

What I think that NCsoft is not realizing (or possibly grossly underestimating) is that we as a community have a lot more at stake in the game at this point than NCsoft.  The reasons we need NCsoft to continue working to allow the game to be sold are much more compelling.  I could write for pages about the time and creative energy (and in some cases, much, much more (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5070.0.html)) people have invested in the game, and as individuals, I know how important that is.  However, in this response, I will address something that might be more compelling: money.  NCsoft has invested money into City of Heroes, but the fact is, so have we.  In fact, we have invested more money into City of Heroes than NCsoft has, as evidenced by the fact that the game was earning a profit.  We have more than paid back NCsoft in revenue, and until August 31, were willing to continue doing so.

At this point, I feel that I have to point out that this profit from City of Heroes is part of what has made NCsoft's other titles such as Aion and Guild Wars 2 possible by funding their development.  Hopefully you can understand the anger and disappointment we felt when a mere three days after Guild Wars 2 launched--a game that our money funded--NCsoft in essence kicked us to the curb and has now repeatedly denied us the basic dignity of continuing to exist as a community.  While the money we have invested may not give us any legal standing from an ownership perspective, I believe that it does put an ethical onus on NCsoft to do whatever it can to allow the game to remain active.

So I want to make this clear: We have not yet exhausted all of our possibilities.  To date, I have tried my best to be as deferential as I could to NCsoft in the spirit of staying helpful and productive to the negotiation process.  I have worked hard and with utter sincerity to convince NCsoft that allowing the game to be sold is a smart business decision, as I am convinced that it is.  However, it seems that these efforts have failed to make a meaningful impact, and NCsoft is apparently unswayed by our appeals to allow the game to be sold.

At this point, I intend to continue increasing pressure on NCsoft to further convince them that they should want to sell City of Heroes.  Starting now, I am going to step up our media efforts, including reaching out to mainstream media outlets to further explore the issues of people pouring time and creative energy into gaming services that can be shut down at any time, even when they are making a profit.  I will also be reaching out to Asian media, particularly in Seoul, so that they stop thinking of this as just a problem "over there" and so that we can reach people in their own back yard.  I am going to be increasing our publicity efforts, including mobilizing the community to show up at events such as comic and gaming conventions to get the word out further of what is happening to communities that share a common interest.  I am going to start a campaign of informing NCsoft's customers via avenues such as game review sites and media that NCsoft seems to have become a company that is willing to needlessly kill off gaming communities.  I am going to be performing in-depth financial research into NCsoft to try to answer some of my own personal questions, such as why it is willing to shut down a profitable game, lay off 80+ employees, and kill one of its most active communities to reallocate resources towards... what, exactly?  I am going to be reaching out directly to NCsoft investors to ask if this is really the direction that they want the company to be headed in, in the hopes that if NCsoft management cannot be persuaded, the people paying their paychecks and allowing them to run the company can.

I also want to be crystal clear that these are not threats.  I have always said and will continue to say that I will be intolerant of any illegal activities, including activities intended to physically intimidate anyone or deny service to resources such as game servers.  However, I feel that we are well within our rights to express vocally and loudly that NCsoft has not exhausted all of its options.  This has always been and continues to be simply a matter of willingness to engage in good faith negotiations, and I intend to do my best to make NCsoft reconsider the question of why they are not allowing the game to be sold.  While I appreciate the sentiments expressed of how proud NCsoft is of City of Heroes and how special a place it has in NCsoft's heart, we need more than sentiments.  I have given my e-mail address and telephone number to NCsoft; they have demonstrated that they know how to reach me.  So please, let's stop with the sentiments and figure out a plan for how together we will be able to keep the game going in such a way that we all benefit.

Sincerely,
Tony

Perhaps to pull this back on track a bit -- I want to whole-heartedly save CoH -- and have gnashed my teeth a bit about how to go about it.  Ultimately though, I think we need to continue to move forward reasonably, operating under the assumption that the only feasible way to save it is if NCsoft continues to operate it.   Why?  Well, NCsoft won't (or can't) sell.

 Please consider the following scenario, without having numbers --
If the CoH IP is worth 10 million US and it only makes:
----- about 1 million US per year in profit, then it would take 10 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.
----- about 2 million US per year in profit, then it would take 5 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.
----- about 500,000 US per year in profit, then it would take 20 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.

We can play with the numbers for the valuation and the profit all you want, but when we start talking scenarios like this, a few things become clear.  When considering the time-value of money, waiting 5+ years to begin making a profit isn't necessarily a good use of money, expecially for an out of the blue company that wants this to be its first/flagship game.  Also, someone raising money to make that purchase will need additional money to get it up and running. If we consider someone like SOE or EA though, flush with cash ant not necessarily looking to make a direct profit from the game, adding a game like CoH could make a "station pass" offering much more palatable to its consumer base.  Note:at one time NCsoft was considering this for its stable of games.

At this point then, if big players are not interested, then I doubt smaller players will be able to afford it, unless the numbers are much more optimistic (as noted, the example numbers are made up).  That isn't NCsoft's fault, and could explain the "exhausting all resources" statement at such an early date.  For us, that means the only savior is NCsoft (especialy if they still receive some amount of profit), and that means we need to convince them it is worthwhile to do it -- for continued profit and reputation.  Gazing at the I24 patch notes, I can envision a spike in sales much like when Freedom first hit.  I also think there's a lot of upside that was being built into the gamein I24, especially the LUA scripting, to make content a lot faster and more efficient.  I'm sure the Paragon leaders have done their best to convince NCsoft of this, and that's their job alone.  Our job is to show NCsoft our passion -- that lots of us want it and lots of us will pay for it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Tannim222 on October 17, 2012, 09:41:21 PM
Perhaps to pull this back on track a bit -- I want to whole-heartedly save CoH -- and have gnashed my teeth a bit about how to go about it.  Ultimately though, I think we need to continue to move forward reasonably, operating under the assumption that the only feasible way to save it is if NCsoft continues to operate it.   Why?  Well, NCsoft won't (or can't) sell.

 Please consider the following scenario, without having numbers --
If the CoH IP is worth 10 million US and it only makes:
----- about 1 million US per year in profit, then it would take 10 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.
----- about 2 million US per year in profit, then it would take 5 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.
----- about 500,000 US per year in profit, then it would take 20 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.

We can play with the numbers for the valuation and the profit all you want, but when we start talking scenarios like this, a few things become clear.  When considering the time-value of money, waiting 5+ years to begin making a profit isn't necessarily a good use of money, expecially for an out of the blue company that wants this to be its first/flagship game.  Also, someone raising money to make that purchase will need additional money to get it up and running. If we consider someone like SOE or EA though, flush with cash ant not necessarily looking to make a direct profit from the game, adding a game like CoH could make a "station pass" offering much more palatable to its consumer base.  Note:at one time NCsoft was considering this for its stable of games.

At this point then, if big players are not interested, then I doubt smaller players will be able to afford it, unless the numbers are much more optimistic (as noted, the example numbers are made up).  That isn't NCsoft's fault, and could explain the "exhausting all resources" statement at such an early date.  For us, that means the only savior is NCsoft (especialy if they still receive some amount of profit), and that means we need to convince them it is worthwhile to do it -- for continued profit and reputation.  Gazing at the I24 patch notes, I can envision a spike in sales much like when Freedom first hit.  I also think there's a lot of upside that was being built into the gamein I24, especially the LUA scripting, to make content a lot faster and more efficient.  I'm sure the Paragon leaders have done their best to convince NCsoft of this, and that's their job alone.  Our job is to show NCsoft our passion -- that lots of us want it and lots of us will pay for it.

From what people have put together, Paragon Studios itself made an attempt to purchase the game made some headway and after a couple of weeks waiting for a responce were shut out, 2 seperate investment firms attempted to contact NCSoft and were IGNORED, at least one small studio attempted contact and was also ignored, and some people have posted about a seperate studio attempting to contact NCSoft and was ignored. Apparently to NCSoft, exhausting all options means to keep your current employees strung along (probably to ensure all NDAs have been signed and approved), and ignore anyone else on the outside.

There will be no convincing NCSoft to operate CoH, from all indications once the servers are shut down, all the game data will be placed into storage. The remaining value of the CoH IP is part of the NCSoft portfolio.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: therain93 on October 17, 2012, 10:31:06 PM
From what people have put together, Paragon Studios itself made an attempt to purchase the game made some headway and after a couple of weeks waiting for a responce were shut out, 2 seperate investment firms attempted to contact NCSoft and were IGNORED, at least one small studio attempted contact and was also ignored, and some people have posted about a seperate studio attempting to contact NCSoft and was ignored. Apparently to NCSoft, exhausting all options means to keep your current employees strung along (probably to ensure all NDAs have been signed and approved), and ignore anyone else on the outside.

There will be no convincing NCSoft to operate CoH, from all indications once the servers are shut down, all the game data will be placed into storage. The remaining value of the CoH IP is part of the NCSoft portfolio.

Then we're all done here?  No, I didn't think so.  I can't and won't speculate on the whispers about attempted purchases of the game that have been repeated and twisted, ad nauseum -- there's nothing to verify it and therefore not a whole lot of use debating it.  What's left to do is continue making it clear to NCsoft that it is in their better interest to keep the gaming running and make some money from it -- to quote the popular Fry meme, "Shut up and take my money", NCsoft.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: caine6900 on October 17, 2012, 11:18:29 PM
Has anybody tried to contact the share holders of the parent corp of NCsoft I believe it is Nexene ( probably spelled wrong)  or the share holders of NCsoft. I would be ticked if the company I have invested in was shut down when it was supposedly in the black.
If this was asked before I could not find it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 17, 2012, 11:28:38 PM
Has anybody tried to contact the share holders of the parent corp of NCsoft I believe it is Nexene ( probably spelled wrong)  or the share holders of NCsoft. I would be ticked if the company I have invested in was shut down when it was supposedly in the black.
If this was asked before I could not find it.

Nexon recently purchased 15% of NCSoft, making it a controlling (though not majority) interest.  I know of at least one attempt to contact them directly concerning the sale of CoH to a third party.

There are hundreds of thousands of shares of NCSoft out there.  Trying to contact the rest of the shareholders would be a very daunting task, especially since most of them are probably in Korea and there doesn't seem to be a publicly available list of them.  If you have any ideas about how to go about contacting them please post it here.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 17, 2012, 11:31:36 PM
We could print hundreds of millions of fliers, load them into a blimp, and fly over S. Korea, dropping them out the back?


</mustache twirl>
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Sol Eternal on October 17, 2012, 11:38:09 PM
I pray they will somehow find a way to save our City.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5lE2uETMdI
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: JaguarX on October 17, 2012, 11:44:38 PM
Perhaps to pull this back on track a bit -- I want to whole-heartedly save CoH -- and have gnashed my teeth a bit about how to go about it.  Ultimately though, I think we need to continue to move forward reasonably, operating under the assumption that the only feasible way to save it is if NCsoft continues to operate it.   Why?  Well, NCsoft won't (or can't) sell.

 Please consider the following scenario, without having numbers --
If the CoH IP is worth 10 million US and it only makes:
----- about 1 million US per year in profit, then it would take 10 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.
----- about 2 million US per year in profit, then it would take 5 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.
----- about 500,000 US per year in profit, then it would take 20 years to recoup the initial investment, assuming a straight line return.

We can play with the numbers for the valuation and the profit all you want, but when we start talking scenarios like this, a few things become clear.  When considering the time-value of money, waiting 5+ years to begin making a profit isn't necessarily a good use of money, expecially for an out of the blue company that wants this to be its first/flagship game.  Also, someone raising money to make that purchase will need additional money to get it up and running. If we consider someone like SOE or EA though, flush with cash ant not necessarily looking to make a direct profit from the game, adding a game like CoH could make a "station pass" offering much more palatable to its consumer base.  Note:at one time NCsoft was considering this for its stable of games.

At this point then, if big players are not interested, then I doubt smaller players will be able to afford it, unless the numbers are much more optimistic (as noted, the example numbers are made up).  That isn't NCsoft's fault, and could explain the "exhausting all resources" statement at such an early date.  For us, that means the only savior is NCsoft (especialy if they still receive some amount of profit), and that means we need to convince them it is worthwhile to do it -- for continued profit and reputation.  Gazing at the I24 patch notes, I can envision a spike in sales much like when Freedom first hit.  I also think there's a lot of upside that was being built into the gamein I24, especially the LUA scripting, to make content a lot faster and more efficient.  I'm sure the Paragon leaders have done their best to convince NCsoft of this, and that's their job alone.  Our job is to show NCsoft our passion -- that lots of us want it and lots of us will pay for it.

hmm a random thought just came across my mind after reading this and might be playing a bit of devil's advocate here but dont shoot me.

I wonder if this was NCSoft plan all along? To keep the game long enough to recoup what it paid for it and little more and then dump it and keep the IP?

I mean it would make sense to not let anyone outside the decision akers know about it, i.e Paragon studios as saying "hey we'll hire you but you will put in all this work and we'll kick you out in 8 years and keep everything."

Lol. You know what, I'm tripping. I'm still high on two cans of Rockstar. Pay me no mind right now.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Tannim222 on October 18, 2012, 03:31:38 AM
Then we're all done here?  No, I didn't think so.  I can't and won't speculate on the whispers about attempted purchases of the game that have been repeated and twisted, ad nauseum -- there's nothing to verify it and therefore not a whole lot of use debating it.  What's left to do is continue making it clear to NCsoft that it is in their better interest to keep the gaming running and make some money from it -- to quote the popular Fry meme, "Shut up and take my money", NCsoft.

I'm not trying to sound like a nay-sayer. I was only pointing out what has already occured (paragon's attempt), dounix's own article stating that two of his trusted sources made an attempt and were ignored, and one person on these forums stated her company tried to contact the company. I've seen other people post on the game forums another small studio made an attempt but I've nothing to verify those statements whatsoever.

With regards to convincing NCSoft to keep the game running, they've already made up their minds on that matter. Everyone has been laid off, on severance, you could even hear the cubicles being broken down on the coffee talk today. They've publically given the players "their statement". Hoping to convince NCSoft to turn that all around - even in a diminished capacity - is foolish. Going back on their words simply isn't in the Korean culture, especially publically, doubly so when you're a wealthy corporation. Hoping to convince them to actually become open to actually listening to offers is quite another thing, and that being an extreme long shot, is our best bet.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Ionmatrix on October 18, 2012, 05:18:30 AM
Anyone know of that song by Volbeat called (Still Counting)? lol send it to them in Korean. Anyway my little spit ball of advice is this.
Just like the Japanese, S Koreans HATE losing face period. Shame is the WORST and if word gets out NC Soft has done this shameful act maybe they may be willing to SAVE face by selling the game.

Remember, Music with Video will touch the hearts of the Korean people. Let us as Americans SIDE with the Asian community that WE are ONE as gamers and to help us anyway they can. WE are a family of true believers and TOGETHER we can accomplish anything. Peace and God Speed Tony and to all who read this.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: johnrobey on October 18, 2012, 06:25:24 AM
I pray they will somehow find a way to save our City.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5lE2uETMdI

Thanks!!  I enjoyed your video very much!!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rotten Luck on October 18, 2012, 11:46:01 AM
I'm wondering about the timing.

GW2 Launches... CoH terminated ... Blade and souls Launches.  Is it me or does it seem it was set so news of CoH would be lost in the GW2 and B&S News?

As I heard they might want to keep the IP for possible relaunch (CoH2) later, but don't want to uses it now.  Still this makes no logic why deactivate CoH one fully and not put it in Maintenance and have the Paragon team work on CoH2, or other products.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Harermuir on October 18, 2012, 01:49:38 PM
So did Bruce Wayne's sidekick, Bleep Grayson.  :o

And yeah, it actually replaced the word with "bleep", not with asterisks. I nearly busted a gut laughing when I saw it, hehe.

Profanity filter was indeed filtering npc name in french language. One of the striker in a ile du requin mission.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: pewlagon on October 18, 2012, 02:48:49 PM
Three things went on the Weekend this all went down;

1) It was Labor Day weekend

2) It was the first full weekend for GW2 (prior weekend was pre-orders only.)

3) PAX

By the time the three day weekend was over the news was buried. I doubt, very much, NcSoft didn't understand the ramifications of the timing. As it stands we had an uphill battle because everyone was talking about everything not CoH. Even sources that report the news via websites (Gamespot) and Vloggers on YouTube didn't seem to catch onto the news or let it slide. The sad fact is development studio closures has become commonplace and City of Heroes became old news very quickly. My problem is NcSoft closing yet another game should have been bigger news than it was. Someone should have done an analytical articale the day of the announcements, but again look at the timing. NcSoft, whether planned or not, picked the perfect day to make their decision.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on October 18, 2012, 03:02:28 PM
To announce their decision. This smacks of something they've been planning for a while.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 18, 2012, 03:32:02 PM
Firstly, sorry I have been quiet the past couple days.  Midterms have really taken their toll and I've been dealing with a host of life issues as well. 

Anyway.

To announce their decision. This smacks of something they've been planning for a while.

I think it's silly to assume anything but the fact that NCSoft had been planning this for a while.  Mostly because it is safe to assume that they made this decision based on some form of logic (that is admittedly impossible to understand).  This is mostly because we can't assume the contrary, which is that they made the decision to kill the game willy-nilly.  As cathartic as it might be to think and act on that assumption, it doesn't make sense for a corporation to do something like that.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Minotaur on October 18, 2012, 05:00:00 PM
To announce their decision. This smacks of something they've been planning for a while.

They planned it for a while and sold a lot more GW2 boxes than they would have done if they'd announced it a couple of weeks earlier.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: avelworldcreator on October 18, 2012, 06:33:28 PM
I'm not trying to sound like a nay-sayer. I was only pointing out what has already occured (paragon's attempt), dounix's own article stating that two of his trusted sources made an attempt and were ignored, and one person on these forums stated her company tried to contact the company. I've seen other people post on the game forums another small studio made an attempt but I've nothing to verify those statements whatsoever.
If you are referring to me, I'm a "he", thank you very much.  :P
With regards to convincing NCSoft to keep the game running, they've already made up their minds on that matter. Everyone has been laid off, on severance, you could even hear the cubicles being broken down on the coffee talk today. They've publically given the players "their statement". Hoping to convince NCSoft to turn that all around - even in a diminished capacity - is foolish. Going back on their words simply isn't in the Korean culture, especially publically, doubly so when you're a wealthy corporation. Hoping to convince them to actually become open to actually listening to offers is quite another thing, and that being an extreme long shot, is our best bet.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: thothboi on October 22, 2012, 12:37:56 PM
If I may make my debut onto this site with an observation, to both the naysayers and their more positive counterparts, that observation is this.

While it may seem unlikely that a community can force any company into an action they do not wish to take, I remind people of Stargate SG1, when the character Daniel Jackson was axed (season 8 I believe), the fan community's response was so great that the studio could not believe it.  Fans even went so far as to put a full page ad in Variety magazine demanding the return of their favourite character.  The studio, MGM, capitulated.

Whilst it may seem unlikely, there is actual modern precedent for a company to give in to the pressure of the fan base or community that flourishes around 'their' product.  What keeps hope alive are the actions of the very communities that enjoy the intellectual property, be it a computer game or television show.

In this day and age, where technology is more prevalent than not, how can a community of like minded individuals not bring to bear great pressure if they were motivated to do so?  From what I've seen, and what I feel, despite being a largely solo player of CoH, there is a great deal of motivation within the community.  It doesn't matter what form the pressure takes, so long as it is coordinated and a large section of the CoH community is represented.  Yes, there is a credit crunch worldwide and Asia seems to be among the least affected, but remember that you're talking about only one hemisphere of a planet the rest of the world also has its say and represents a substantial amount of money.  After all, that's what business is about, making money.

What must be done is demonstrate how much money the company stands to lose versus how much it could accumulate by closing down the game.  Do not reserve your mathematical prowess to statements of CoH profit, but use the fan numbers and boycott declarations to calculate how much they will lose in comparison due to their bad decision.  Everything is about being cost effective in the business world, therefore it should be demonstrated how much this move will cost. 

We live in a consumer driven market economy.  The company that puts out the most reliable product, for the least amount of money, whilst making an insane profit walks away the winner.  You have the buying power to make NCSoft winners or losers in the great game of finance.  Show them how you effect their bottom line.  How the bad press effects their bottom line.  How far you are willing to go to make this game not only a success, but a continuously viable option for the company.

To naysay and surmise that all is lost is easy.  To fight and demonstrate through consumerism and irrefutable profit/loss margins is hard, but ultimately the only thing that will really make a difference.  If not in saving it now, then in reviving it at a later date.

That's it for my first post....sorry for the length  ;D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Mindscythe on October 22, 2012, 04:16:22 PM
If I may make my debut onto this site with an observation, to both the naysayers and their more positive counterparts, that observation is this.

While it may seem unlikely that a community can force any company into an action they do not wish to take, I remind people of Stargate SG1, when the character Daniel Jackson was axed (season 8 I believe), the fan community's response was so great that the studio could not believe it.  Fans even went so far as to put a full page ad in Variety magazine demanding the return of their favourite character.  The studio, MGM, capitulated.

This makes me wonder... did the idea of taking out advertisements in South Korean newspapers ever get any traction? I thought that was a great idea, and would get the message out to potential NCsoft stakeholders that aren't a part of these forums, or the official CoH forums.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 22, 2012, 05:21:07 PM
This makes me wonder... did the idea of taking out advertisements in South Korean newspapers ever get any traction? I thought that was a great idea, and would get the message out to potential NCsoft stakeholders that aren't a part of these forums, or the official CoH forums.

I think what halted it was that none of us can read and type Korean to do it. We don't know where to start or how to get from point a to b. It's a great idea though. I asked my Japanese friend to help but shes so busy with school she hasn't had time to ask her Korean (also in school) friend to translate. They are in college to become Doctors so very busy. Basically we need someone who is a part of our cause who can read and write/type Korean.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Clave Dark 5 on October 22, 2012, 06:29:39 PM
You know, we could take up a collection to hire a professional translation service.  That won't get us anywhere closer to being able to send a Korean newspaper an emailed version of the and a check/cc# (one assumes this can be done on-line), but one step at a time, right?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 22, 2012, 06:48:14 PM
I think what halted it was that none of us can read and type Korean to do it. We don't know where to start or how to get from point a to b. It's a great idea though. I asked my Japanese friend to help but shes so busy with school she hasn't had time to ask her Korean (also in school) friend to translate. They are in college to become Doctors so very busy. Basically we need someone who is a part of our cause who can read and write/type Korean.

Is Starranger4 still out and about here? Pretty sure he said he was Korean.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 22, 2012, 07:36:59 PM
No - Star Ranger is not Korean. He just did a very thorough research job on the culture.

Star Ranger lives in L.A. California.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rotten Luck on October 22, 2012, 08:33:24 PM
Still having someone know about the culture can help us Aim our Internet weaponry where it hurts better.  I think we are gearing up for full on glove are off mode.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: GDawgz on October 23, 2012, 03:48:46 AM
Hey guys, been monitoring the site for a while now but registered to offer my help with this. I speak/type/write Korean and could translate something for you if you need. Don't know if Korean itself is all that useful for the cause, but just know I'm around. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 23, 2012, 04:32:33 AM
AWESOME! We very much DO need your skills!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Moonfyire101 on October 23, 2012, 03:48:00 PM
Hey guys, been monitoring the site for a while now but registered to offer my help with this. I speak/type/write Korean and could translate something for you if you need. Don't know if Korean itself is all that useful for the cause, but just know I'm around.

Great! Thank you!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: BryanSnowden on October 23, 2012, 09:10:29 PM
That really is Awesome, I wish I could read the NCsoft Korea Website's - "News", they stopped translating it to English in 2007, they also seemed to stop talking about anything relating to NCsoft West (US and/or UK) aka: NCsoft Interactive.

The next NCsoft "IR Report" & (possibly conference calls) probably won't be up till November 8 or so = based on what's there now, it looks like they went to quarterly - after having been biannually for awhile.

They really seemed to kick the Western Titles & market to the proverbial curb after the Tabula Rasa fiasco, there's one Korean times article (in English) with a quote from an anonymous employee (maybe investor?) who goes off sarcastically about how 'every year' they hear a speech from Take-Jin Kim about "next year the Garriott's Project=(Tabula Rasa) is going to be a blockbuster" or something close to that...

And going back thru the more recent IR reports = NCsoft (probably not just Kim) about how "profits are projected to skyrocket in the next year (or so) when 'Aion', then 'Blade & Soul', and then 'Guild Wars 2' - finally hits the market... (and then - when it hits the Western Market).
I suspect that was the reason He sold all that stock to Nexon, he had last his Credibility in the company (maybe industry?), and decided to "cash-out" at least partially (or to the extent he's allowed?) and then try to save face in the industry - pushing Mobile Platform Titles.
Which is suspect Yoon Song-yee - his second wife = who also works for NCsoft in the upper ranks - came to NCsoft from *SK Telecom* - although their marriage was originally *hush-hush* there's another article or two about that (Kim had to give his first=ex-wife a big chunk of stock - something like ~3.8% of the stock he had held - when they got divorced).

I wouldn't put it past *someone* (maybe multiple someones)  to have pressured him/them to "realign their focus" toward Mobile Games - ones that the Telecom companies (like say, the one Yoon previously worked for) - to gain an additional profit = on top of the software/gaming profit from game sales, cash-shops sales, and well, however they're paid for/by the 'PC Bang' (Gamer-centric Cyber-cafe) gaming...
(The wiki on those actually says that companies like Nexon reward players from logging in from the 'PC Bangs' with extra in game currency...)  and the places sell food & stuff.  they have smoking and non-smoking sections, allegedly better PC than players have at home... Heck, if they put some of those Japanese "Coffin Hotels" in the back of the places = the gamers  might never have to leave!  :o
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 23, 2012, 11:22:13 PM
Then you would think that it ought to be possible to make it too expensive NOT to unload CoH IP.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Dr Shadow on October 23, 2012, 11:57:22 PM
That really is Awesome, I wish I could read the NCsoft Korea Website's - "News", they stopped translating it to English in 2007, they also seemed to stop talking about anything relating to NCsoft West (US and/or UK) aka: NCsoft Interactive.

The next NCsoft "IR Report" & (possibly conference calls) probably won't be up till November 8 or so = based on what's there now, it looks like they went to quarterly - after having been biannually for awhile.

They really seemed to kick the Western Titles & market to the proverbial curb after the Tabula Rasa fiasco, there's one Korean times article (in English) with a quote from an anonymous employee (maybe investor?) who goes off sarcastically about how 'every year' they hear a speech from Take-Jin Kim about "next year the Garriott's Project=(Tabula Rasa) is going to be a blockbuster" or something close to that...

And going back thru the more recent IR reports = NCsoft (probably not just Kim) about how "profits are projected to skyrocket in the next year (or so) when 'Aion', then 'Blade & Soul', and then 'Guild Wars 2' - finally hits the market... (and then - when it hits the Western Market).
I suspect that was the reason He sold all that stock to Nexon, he had last his Credibility in the company (maybe industry?), and decided to "cash-out" at least partially (or to the extent he's allowed?) and then try to save face in the industry - pushing Mobile Platform Titles.
Which is suspect Yoon Song-yee - his second wife = who also works for NCsoft in the upper ranks - came to NCsoft from *SK Telecom* - although their marriage was originally *hush-hush* there's another article or two about that (Kim had to give his first=ex-wife a big chunk of stock - something like ~3.8% of the stock he had held - when they got divorced).

I wouldn't put it past *someone* (maybe multiple someones)  to have pressured him/them to "realign their focus" toward Mobile Games - ones that the Telecom companies (like say, the one Yoon previously worked for) - to gain an additional profit = on top of the software/gaming profit from game sales, cash-shops sales, and well, however they're paid for/by the 'PC Bang' (Gamer-centric Cyber-cafe) gaming...
(The wiki on those actually says that companies like Nexon reward players from logging in from the 'PC Bangs' with extra in game currency...)  and the places sell food & stuff.  they have smoking and non-smoking sections, allegedly better PC than players have at home... Heck, if they put some of those Japanese "Coffin Hotels" in the back of the places = the gamers  might never have to leave!  :o

Google Chrome will translate
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 24, 2012, 12:11:30 AM
I am about to write the most depressing story I have ever done, my signature character Belladonna Aura's "last day" story.  I'll embed Samuraiko's video when it's done, and on December 1, it will get a hotlink on the front page of my website to the internal section that used to be devoted to my Guest Author arc.

I strongly advise opening a box of tissues before reading it. 

At the end, I will give a short and sharp "Why I will no longer invest my time and money in an NCSoft game and I advise you to do the same."

Then I will put the same in every dedication to every book I turn in from now on, and the hotlink to the story/page.

It will remain on my webpage forever.  Or until NCSoft sells City of Heroes.  That is my response to NCSoft.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 24, 2012, 12:13:58 AM
Then I will put the same in every dedication to every book I turn in from now on, and the hotlink to the story/page.
Muhahahaha!

I love it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 24, 2012, 12:16:33 AM
To paraphrase Mr. Stark:

If we can't save City of Heroes you can be DAMN sure we will AVENGE it!

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: TargetOne on October 24, 2012, 12:33:02 AM
At the end, I will give a short and sharp "Why I will no longer invest my time and money in an NCSoft game and I advise you to do the same."

Then I will put the same in every dedication to every book I turn in from now on, and the hotlink to the story/page.

It will remain on my webpage forever.  Or until NCSoft sells City of Heroes.  That is my response to NCSoft.

Awesome. NCSoft really deserves to have a perpetual thorn in their side. Even if it proves to only be a minor annoyance to them, it's still an annoyance. :D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Dr Shadow on October 24, 2012, 12:39:18 AM
It's amazing what discomfort a grain of sand can cause.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: MishaFox on October 24, 2012, 12:42:28 AM
This is the type of public relations disaster that NCSoft is never going to live down. This WILL be remembered for a long time. It will undoubtedly cripple sales here in the U.S. They have angered and alienated too many people.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rotten Luck on October 24, 2012, 12:43:46 AM
To paraphrase Mr. Stark:

If we can't save City of Heroes you can be DAMN sure we will AVENGE it!

I see an internet Meme here!  Quick Hero group shot hunt... GO!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 24, 2012, 01:00:22 AM
It's amazing what discomfort a grain of sand can cause.
Especially if that grain of sand is in their underwear.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 24, 2012, 01:08:58 AM
(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/vickievee/screenshot_120908-16-27-25.jpg)

Or, the CCCP version:

(https://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/vickievee/screenshot_2005-05-30-21-52-42.jpg)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rotten Luck on October 24, 2012, 01:13:40 AM
Working on the Meme shots now and will include them on the Meme thread.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: BryanSnowden on October 24, 2012, 02:03:51 AM
Then you would think that it ought to be possible to make it too expensive NOT to unload CoH IP.

Yep! And, seeing as how I've found myself with a lot of free-time lately... Persuading them to do so is gonna be a large chunk of MY own - "realignment of personal focus" for the near future!
Unless, Of course they manage to look deep down inside and "find a heart" sometime soon - maybe they should play some Zelda? (IDK, just a thought...)

Maybe - they'll even find some *human decency* and manage to see fit to undertake a noble, altruistic act displaying their appreciation of customers & a lack of corporate greed. Maybe not, maybe it would be motivated by a desire to help save the reputation of their company brand & what's left of its good name, and lets not forget the good names of its employees!

That would let myself (and most everyone else here - I assume) go back to partaking in our most precious hobby/pastime playing CoH - we in "The West" have an old and (apparently) strange connection to American/Western-style, comic-book Heroes, Villains & the more modern graphic-novel Vigilantes & Rogues...
That people from "The East" - just don't get - I mean, we know they love Anime & Manga (like their Weekly/Monthly 'Shonen Jump' magazines, I guess that somewhere(?) between us is a fine line where we differ - on some *subtle* cultural level?

And by "altruistic act", I mean like 'giving us back our Community' = in some reasonable fashion, (Not - "give it to us for free NOW") unless of course all you're gonna do with it is put it into the basement & kill it...  Trying to save face(?) or hide some embarrassment(??) Maybe its vaguely related to this "Kibun" and/or "Nunchi", that I've recently read about - but don't quite understand... Yet!

Well, I'm gonna have to work on it I guess, and what better chance am I ever going to get than this? (It could get a bit ugly - but I have virtually nothing to lose here):
According to their 1st (plainly thoughtless) response to us, followed by their 2nd (obviously insincere & almost cruel) response to us...  Both of which - showed a near complete lack of compassion OR caring for the feelings and emotional well-being of people in our Community of Heroes (many of which aren't well-equipped to handle or "deal-with" that degree of callousness from a business that we've supported *quite loyally* = for the better part of a decade... 
For some it may have only been a few years, But for many it was 6, 7, or 8 years, and for some of the original beta testers & devs/creators it really has been a Decade!
A decade of their lives that was Not "Just a Career" & (Not "Just a Game") - Over time it grew to be an extended family of thousands...  Of co-workers, and fans, dedicated players, and in turn it was often a '2nd generation' of these families. When RL friends & family learned to enjoy it together, and we grew to have a sense of fellowship, with the spirit of the proverbial - "it takes a village to raise a child" = where you could trust that the people there (in game) we're Almost ALL were looking out for each other & and even their children.  And, where - at times - people would argue like family or 'fight' like siblings...

For some without families - for those that are separated from their family by distance, tragedy, health, etc. = It had become a place where they had found a new "tribe"... And you decided to tear that away from us - because of reasons you won't even be straightforward with us about, Or - as some have suggested you feel you can't?

I cannot begin to fathom a Smart Business reason to end this game when it was (by all available accounts/records/reports) doing just fine with money coming in to support it and then some, (perhaps not at a ROE great enough to satisfy some stockholders?) If so then you should sell it - (to a group that wants to keep it alive) - for a fair amount. 
If it's not that profitable - then selling it to us won't be a huge loss to your overall business, But it would mean a WORLD to the people that love it = while it seems to us now - that y'all just don't love it at all!  And, you could regain the respect of the people that are growing to loathe your attitude toward us that can only be described as callous in nature...  or worse.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: emu265 on October 24, 2012, 02:06:49 AM
Nicely said, Bryan.  Here's hoping we can figure something out!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 24, 2012, 02:36:09 AM
Actually I made a mistake.

To be more "in-character" it ought to be -

If we can't save Paragon City you can be DAMN sure we will AVENGE it!

But hey - either way.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 24, 2012, 02:37:00 AM
And yeah - Nicely said, Bryan. Nicely said.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 24, 2012, 02:40:13 AM
You hear that soft rustling sound NCSoft? It's barely at the edge of your hearing. Sounds like leaves in the trees, doesn't it?

Oh no. It's not the leaves in the trees.

It's the sound of THOUSANDS of gloves coming off.



Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: P51mus on October 24, 2012, 02:56:53 AM
That people from "The East" - just don't get - I mean, we know they love Anime & Manga (like their Weekly/Monthly 'Shonen Jump' magazines, I guess that somewhere(?) between us is a fine line where we differ - on some *subtle* cultural level?

You seem to be confusing Korea with Japan somewhat.  Anime specifically refers to animation that comes from japan (and the kind of style they tend to have), and manga refers to comics from japan.

Also Japan has its share of hero culture with their Power rangers style hero squads,  there was an anime recently called Tiger and Bunny about super heroes that did pretty well, and there were a few anime based on marvel comics.  Not to mention, other anime often have very strong heroic themes, like One Piece.

.....NCsoft never tried launching City of Heroes in Japan.

Anyway, don't just lump all eastern countries together.  There's some similar elements, but significant differences too. 
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: epawtows on October 24, 2012, 03:17:02 AM
Especially if that grain of sand is in their underwear.

You just had to make an underwear comment, in a topic related to superheros, didn't you?   :P
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rotten Luck on October 24, 2012, 03:25:54 AM
Not sure they know what underwear are given some of the images from Blade and Soul.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: eabrace on October 24, 2012, 03:33:24 AM
You just had to make an underwear comment, in a topic related to superheros, didn't you?   :P
I come from Triumph.  We don't wear pants!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Flashtoo on October 24, 2012, 03:42:49 AM
I come from Triumph.  We don't wear pants!

Oh Triumph, my original home server... I still avoid pants whenever possible.

No, seriously. I wear skirts and dresses all the time.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: MishaFox on October 24, 2012, 03:57:15 AM
Triumph! The pantless server! :)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: avelworldcreator on October 24, 2012, 03:58:24 AM
Triumph! The pantless server! :)
I plead the 5th...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: downix on October 24, 2012, 04:07:08 AM
Hickman, is that you?!?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: SithRose on October 24, 2012, 04:32:10 AM
Triumph! The pantless server! :)

So you're saying that Triumph is the Sidekick Server?

Cause, you know, everyone knows that sidekicks don't wear pants...:)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 24, 2012, 08:52:54 AM
I strongly advise opening a box of tissues before reading it. 

At the end, I will give a short and sharp "Why I will no longer invest my time and money in an NCSoft game and I advise you to do the same."

Then I will put the same in every dedication to every book I turn in from now on, and the hotlink to the story/page.

It will remain on my webpage forever.  Or until NCSoft sells City of Heroes.  That is my response to NCSoft.

Mental note to self: Never anger VV, she can be one scary lady!
I don't think I've ever seen an author do that, it's very creative.  ;D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 24, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
I am about to write the most depressing story I have ever done, my signature character Belladonna Aura's "last day" story.  I'll embed Samuraiko's video when it's done, and on December 1, it will get a hotlink on the front page of my website to the internal section that used to be devoted to my Guest Author arc.

I strongly advise opening a box of tissues before reading it. 

At the end, I will give a short and sharp "Why I will no longer invest my time and money in an NCSoft game and I advise you to do the same."

Then I will put the same in every dedication to every book I turn in from now on, and the hotlink to the story/page.

It will remain on my webpage forever.  Or until NCSoft sells City of Heroes.  That is my response to NCSoft.


/me lays out a few hugs for VV
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on October 24, 2012, 02:14:48 PM
Mental note to self: Never anger VV, she can be one scary lady!

Remember, this is the lady with a Bolo in her backyard. :D

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5316.msg53898.html#msg53898

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Knightslayer on October 24, 2012, 02:19:39 PM
Remember, this is the lady with a Bolo in her backyard. :D

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5316.msg53898.html#msg53898
LOL, now you've got me picturing her as Tank Girl!  8)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Rotten Luck on October 24, 2012, 02:31:16 PM
One of my Favorite Writers can have anything she wants in her back yard.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Enson Red Shirt on December 05, 2012, 08:25:22 PM
one box of tissues was not enough i'm sure it was depressing to write but it was uplifting to read
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 06, 2012, 01:55:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_128380&feature=iv&src_vid=T8S0GMdpK-U&v=FXv7Da0ueso (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_128380&feature=iv&src_vid=T8S0GMdpK-U&v=FXv7Da0ueso)

Please watch this in HD if you can.  There are little bits you will miss otherwise, mostly on the television screens.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on December 06, 2012, 03:23:17 AM
Did you write the story VV? Is there a direct link to it?

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 03:29:28 AM
That's Samuraiko's work, if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on December 06, 2012, 04:04:46 AM
Oh - I thought she'd mentioned in a post a few weeks ago she was actually writing it out in regular prose style. But I do see above that Samuraiko mentions a script that VV wrote for the video. Maybe that's what she meant?

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 04:06:06 AM
It must be!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Tubbius on December 06, 2012, 04:10:02 AM
That's a wonderfully touching video, Ms. Lackey.  Its creator certainly did you, your characters, and City of Heroes justice.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 06, 2012, 07:38:34 AM
Did you write the story VV? Is there a direct link to it?

I wrote the script.  I'm writing the story that mirrors the script tomorrow.

http://www.cccpgroup.us/storyarc.php?ID=123 (http://www.cccpgroup.us/storyarc.php?ID=123)  This is the story arc that partly explains Bella and Zach; the same site has a lot of Bella and Zach story arcs, but this is the post pertinent
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 07:43:16 AM
Oops! Sorry Mercedes. Didn't mean to misplace credit.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: johnrobey on December 06, 2012, 12:14:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_128380&feature=iv&src_vid=T8S0GMdpK-U&v=FXv7Da0ueso (http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_128380&feature=iv&src_vid=T8S0GMdpK-U&v=FXv7Da0ueso)

Please watch this in HD if you can.  There are little bits you will miss otherwise, mostly on the television screens.

I've been a fan of Samuraiko's videos ever since the first time I happened to surf into her "Avatar - CoH Style" on youtube.  Your collaboration video makes this extra special.  Thank you and Samuraiko for sharing this with us.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 06, 2012, 01:33:26 PM
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on December 06, 2012, 02:04:30 PM
I got a touch misty-eyed at the videos, but for some reason - as excellent as they were - I didn't cry.

This made me cry.

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Globetrotter on December 06, 2012, 02:14:47 PM
The full story behind the video made it even more emotional. 

Found out I still had tears to shed  :'(
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Blitzwing on December 06, 2012, 04:02:53 PM
Amazing story and video, too!

...it's been late 2009 since I played, but I'm pretty certain that the CCCP was a Pinnacle SG...I'm working on a story of my own featuring my own Scrapper(an anime-inspired OC I've written about in other mediums since 1997) set in Pinnacle during the final day; it's going to be a very light-hearted affair, as my way of celebrating the joy and love of CoH's run....

CapeMike(the above-mentioned Scrapper) has figured a way to sync his own vibrational frequency(ala DC's Flash) with a Portal Corps portal set up in Pocket D...and anyone who wants to escape to CM's original home of OtakuWorld(think every anime cliche/meme rolled into one and given physical form) is given the chance to..either permanently or until, by some miracle, the link to Paragon Earth can be restored.
------

Basically it means rthat anyone who wanted to could allow their characters' adventures to continue, even if it's just 'off-panel', until when(not if) we ger CoH back!  :]

Would anyone want to make an appearance, even if it's just a cameo?  :]

Finally, I'd be -thrilled- if you'd be willing to brainstorm ideas with me, Mercedes...send a message!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on December 06, 2012, 04:37:21 PM
Found out I still had tears to shed  :'(

Amen.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Samuraiko on December 06, 2012, 10:41:17 PM
Glad to see that people enjoyed it, and that I was sufficiently faithful to VV's intent and script. :)

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 07, 2012, 10:50:09 AM
/me sobs pathetically after reading the story and watching the video
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: gypsyav on December 07, 2012, 04:46:02 PM
I didn't think I had any tears left. I was wrong.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Merana on December 07, 2012, 04:55:33 PM
You two made me cry.  :'(
And i always liked VNV Nation.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 07, 2012, 09:20:50 PM
That is the saddest song VNV Nation has ever done. And Posty played it on his show, during the shut down. T.T
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 08, 2012, 12:39:30 AM
I know it's hard to tell how mixed up you feel
Hoping what you need is behind every door
Each time you get hurt, I don't want you to change
Because everyone has hopes, you're human after all

The feeling sometimes wishing you were someone else
Feeling as though you never belong
This feeling is not sadness, this feeling is not joy
I truly understand, please don't cry now

Please don't go, I want you to stay
I'm begging you, please, please don't leave here
I don't want you to hate for all the hurt that you feel
The world is just illusion trying to change you

Being like you are, well, this is something else
Who would comprehend? But some that do lay claim
Divine purpose blesses them, that's not what I believe
And it doesn't matter anyway

A part of your soul ties you to the next world
Or maybe to the last but I'm still not sure
But what I do know is to us the world is different
As we are to the world, I guess you would know that

Please don't go, I want you to stay
I'm begging you, please, please don't leave here
I don't want you to hate for all the hurt that you feel
The world is just illusion trying to change you

Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on December 08, 2012, 12:46:43 AM
That is the saddest song VNV Nation has ever done. And Posty played it on his show, during the shut down. T.T

I'd never heard of them until that vid, and now the song won't leave my head. I even purchased the MP3.

Part of it revolves around being far from my wife and daughter and being alone. I can't seem to separate my own personal circumstances from it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 08, 2012, 12:56:59 AM
I'd never heard of them until that vid, and now the song won't leave my head. I even purchased the MP3.

Part of it revolves around being far from my wife and daughter and being alone. I can't seem to separate my own personal circumstances from it.

VnV Nation is...magical.  I love their songs, and a scary number of them seem to resonate or foreshadow the Secret World Chronicle plot.  I do believe Ronan is the equivalent of this generation's Dylan Thomas.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on December 08, 2012, 12:58:33 AM
I'll definitely add them to my Pandora. I don't think I could avoid doing so at this point.

Its going to have to wait a little while though... I get choked-up a little too easily at the moment.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Atlantea on December 08, 2012, 01:31:17 AM
I've never heard of VNV Nation before either. But I'm looking up their stuff now.

Thank you Misty and Michelle for that as well.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Twisted Toon on December 08, 2012, 03:51:49 AM
I'd never heard of them until that vid, and now the song won't leave my head. I even purchased the MP3.

Part of it revolves around being far from my wife and daughter and being alone. I can't seem to separate my own personal circumstances from it.
That is why a song will stick with you,even if you never really liked the type of music in the beginning.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Rob Zombie. But, I like Living Dead Girl. Mainly because of its association with a friend of mine. It is one of her favorite songs.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Tubbius on December 08, 2012, 04:18:49 AM
I bought "Illusion" as well for a buck on Amazon.  It's been on repeat much of the past few days while I've graded papers.

:)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Samuraiko on December 08, 2012, 07:15:16 PM
VnV Nation is...magical.  I love their songs, and a scary number of them seem to resonate or foreshadow the Secret World Chronicle plot.  I do believe Ronan is the equivalent of this generation's Dylan Thomas.

Whereas in my case, Within Temptation seems to have written a good 50-60% of the music for Andrea Blake's storyline. :) (Nightwish fills in at least another 5-10%.)

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Merana on December 08, 2012, 09:35:48 PM
Seems like you listen to much the same music as i do.  ;)
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Globetrotter on December 09, 2012, 11:25:02 PM
Whereas in my case, Within Temptation seems to have written a good 50-60% of the music for Andrea Blake's storyline. :) (Nightwish fills in at least another 5-10%.)

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

How about  another COH Vid to the music of memories? I can so picture it. Just can't make it.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Samuraiko on December 10, 2012, 12:19:21 AM
How about  another COH Vid to the music of memories? I can so picture it. Just can't make it.

I don't think I'd be able to do it. I just... no.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 10, 2012, 12:46:13 AM
I don't think I'd be able to do it. I just... no.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

/me sets out some hugs for Samuraiko to claim at her leisure
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Globetrotter on December 10, 2012, 12:52:33 PM
I don't think I'd be able to do it. I just... no.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

I can understand Michelle   ...   :-X

BIG HUG!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Colette on December 10, 2012, 08:29:48 PM
"I don't think I'd be able to do it. I just... no."

:: Nods. ::

However, if we win this, I request a vid set to Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah. Promise me?
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Segev on December 10, 2012, 08:44:08 PM
My personal favorite by VNV Nation... Genesis

Are these not words of heresy?
A venom on my lips, a poison
My spirit impurified in everything I choose to say
With you I stand in hope that God will save us from ourselves
Every cry a wasted moment until another day is lost
Even lands we once called "home" lie undiscovered and unknown
Only heaven's silence for an answer
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 11, 2012, 12:33:03 AM
"I don't think I'd be able to do it. I just... no."

:: Nods. ::

However, if we win this, I request a vid set to Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah. Promise me?

Only if I also get one set to "The Crazy Ones" by Stellar Revival, because once we pull this off, we're nucking futs. XD
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: AlphaFerret on December 11, 2012, 07:50:08 PM
If this game returns, I am all about the Humpty Dance!
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on December 11, 2012, 09:28:37 PM
Well, it is your chance to do the Hump.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Perfidus on December 11, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
Wow, you guys. Digital Underground. XD
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Mandrake on December 12, 2012, 07:14:55 AM
MC Blowfish...
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: Samuraiko on December 12, 2012, 08:18:07 AM
Oh, if we somehow get our game back, I know what song I'm using.

:)

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: johnrobey on December 12, 2012, 12:35:16 PM
I think there are lots of great choices.  Beethoven's "Ode to Joy" is how I, myself, would feel.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on December 12, 2012, 03:04:47 PM
Just because I'm a silly person, I'll probably listen to "Having a Wonderful Time"  ;D
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: AlphaFerret on December 12, 2012, 07:55:34 PM
I kinda like Who Want's to Live Forever by Queen.  Kinda old school, but hard to beat for a melancholic dirge.  Any Highlander fans will know what I mean.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on December 12, 2012, 08:27:10 PM
Man, that scene in the film always gets to me.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: dwturducken on December 12, 2012, 08:55:57 PM
Especially if you know that they wrote it in the car on the way from meeting with the director and producers, and it was very shortly after they found out that Mercury had AIDS.
Title: Re: A response to NCsoft
Post by: corvus1970 on December 12, 2012, 09:00:33 PM
GAH! I didn't know that.  :'(