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Community => City of Heroes => Topic started by: HEATSTROKE on November 19, 2013, 05:40:31 AM

Title: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: HEATSTROKE on November 19, 2013, 05:40:31 AM
 even in light of the three projects that are currently being developed.. cause I opened my Mids today..   :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :gonk: :gonk: :gonk: :gonk: :gonk: :gonk:
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Aggelakis on November 19, 2013, 05:44:10 AM
Secret stuff is still doing stuff secretly.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: blacksly on November 21, 2013, 07:34:24 PM
How hard will we have to secretly dig up super-sekrit stuff when it's all secretively "ready"?
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: NinjaWeazel on November 21, 2013, 08:25:32 PM
I would imagine 'pretty hard', or it wouldn't be much of a secret.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ironwolf on November 21, 2013, 09:12:30 PM
Actually - I would imagine one day things will just suddenly erupt on BitTorrent.

Then you will have servers all over the place  8), just saying.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Tacitala on November 21, 2013, 10:09:26 PM
even in light of the three projects that are currently being developed.. cause I opened my Mids today

Pretty much this.

Hey, people that are working on the reverse engineering!  Learn how to fold time and space so that you have more than 24 hours a day to do stuff.  >:(

(What do you mean they would use the extra hours to get more sleep?)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 21, 2013, 11:33:06 PM
Pretty much this.

Hey, people that are working on the reverse engineering!  Learn how to fold time and space so that you have more than 24 hours a day to do stuff.  >:(

(What do you mean they would use the extra hours to get more sleep?)
It takes madness to truly comprehend assembly and genius to recreate the actual software properly. As well as patience of a saint and a considerable pool of SAN to burn.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on November 22, 2013, 01:55:29 PM
Actually - I would imagine one day things will just suddenly erupt on BitTorrent.

Then you will have servers all over the place  8), just saying.

That's my expectation. As Tony V has said on the forums, someone IS working on something and has been since before the shutdown. Whenever its done it'll likely be released into the wild allowing all sorts of servers to propagate across internet land. And of course there shall be much rejoicing! I really can't wait for that day... really. It's going to be magical... like Tahiti!
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: CoyoteSeven on November 22, 2013, 09:27:13 PM
I hope SCORE doesn't forget about those XML files we all made when we exported our characters... ahem!
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on November 23, 2013, 11:38:45 PM
I hope SCORE doesn't forget about those XML files we all made when we exported our characters... ahem!

I'd be shocked if the SCORE team didn't start with their own xml exports. I'd expect them to anticipate their use once they release their project.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Risha on November 24, 2013, 01:30:29 AM
Yes, I gave as much as I could to kickstarter, but, ya know, I woke up at 5am this morning and didn't want to go back to sleep...and DID want to play City of Heroes.  I hope SCORE has my email...
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: blue storm on November 24, 2013, 08:42:21 AM
/em holdtorch until the day arrives. and much Kudos to the secret folks doing secret things !

In the meantime, I fully understand why some things might be kept under the radar.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=upload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Ff%2Ff8%2FLoose_lips_might_sink_ships.jpg)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Captain Electric on November 24, 2013, 09:58:25 AM
I heard they went to Upsilon Beta 9-6, set up a crapload of dimensional fast-time machines, and are all like LOL while they work on SCORE.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Pinnacle Blue on November 26, 2013, 12:52:35 PM
How hard will we have to secretly dig up super-sekrit stuff when it's all secretively "ready"?

However hard it is, I bet it's going to be just hard enough that you would be able to find out about it but our most prolific and concerned concern unicorn *cough cough* notnaminganynames *cough* wouldn't be able to.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on November 26, 2013, 02:48:44 PM
I just hope whatever's being cooked up happens before too long. I miss my city :(
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Pinnacle Blue on November 27, 2013, 04:47:12 AM
I just hope whatever's being cooked up happens before too long. I miss my city :(

Me too.  :-[
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Captain Electric on November 27, 2013, 11:12:15 AM
Me three. :(
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: GenericHero05 on November 27, 2013, 12:44:12 PM
Me four!
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Gleech on November 27, 2013, 02:19:14 PM
I understand that these things take time...

...But I can't help but start to get restless... xP
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: batqueen on November 27, 2013, 04:27:26 PM
It's really helpful working with Icon. It's not helpful for everyone, but for me it's how I've kept going. It is access to the city on my hard drive.  I didn't expect to get it when COH went down, but these forums have been full of surprises since I came here.  I hope for more!  :)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: AlienOne on November 27, 2013, 06:03:02 PM
I'm hoping really hard as well... I miss my Warshade, which I spent almost 2,000 hours on. :/

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=isaacwatson.com%2FMyWarshade.jpg)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: batqueen on November 27, 2013, 06:50:17 PM
dang....  they say, 'pics or it didn't happen'- it happened! lol
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: CoyoteSeven on November 27, 2013, 07:33:51 PM
Hells yeah, I haven't finished purpling out my own Warshade! I shared a pic of her here before. She's rad. :D
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: CoyoteSeven on November 27, 2013, 07:51:41 PM
Oh yeah and since we're dreaming and wishing? I really hope we can get rid of those aggro limits. I miss the old days of Perez Park, and also dumpster diving.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on November 28, 2013, 03:53:11 AM
Oh yeah and since we're dreaming and wishing? I really hope we can get rid of those aggro limits. I miss the old days of Perez Park, and also dumpster diving.
i'd settle for what we had at shutdown. Although i'd really like to see the stuff that was still in beta as well. Still, a console allowing you to alter the game's rules to your heart's content on your own server would be acceptable.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Lightslinger on November 28, 2013, 11:55:18 AM
SCORE has been my soapbox since the shutdown announcement and (along with City of Titans) its why i'm still here. I trust Tony, who is probably not actively working on SCORE but would definitely be privy to information, that it is being worked on. So have faith, CoH's best and brightest ARE working toward getting Paragon City back, I'm sure it will take time but it will be back.

City of Titans will carry us forward and SCORE will bring City of Heroes back.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: johnrobey on November 28, 2013, 02:02:50 PM
I am definitely looking forward to City of Titans and, of course, still wishing could all log into our fave MMO and fly the skies above Paragon City this holiday season!  Hoping that day come soon.  /em holdtorch   oh, and Yay and Go Good Team to S.C.O.R.E. (if such a group exists).  Thanks for doing what you can to bring back our City.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: HEATSTROKE on November 30, 2013, 02:13:35 AM
 Id like to make is clear.. Im not complaining.. not saying its taking too long.. not saying that whoever is working on it needs to hurry it up.. nothing like that.. i FULLY understand that it must be a time consuming arduous process and one that is being worked on part time in people free time..

 Im only hoping it hasnt been forgotten or put aside in light of the other projects.. because the reality for me is that even if these projects do come to light and are successful I would STILL probably play CoH if it was ever made available..
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: corvus1970 on November 30, 2013, 02:27:36 AM
SCORE is the joy I'm waiting patiently to jump for :)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on November 30, 2013, 01:58:40 PM
Id like to make is clear.. Im not complaining.. not saying its taking too long.. not saying that whoever is working on it needs to hurry it up.. nothing like that.. i FULLY understand that it must be a time consuming arduous process and one that is being worked on part time in people free time..

 Im only hoping it hasnt been forgotten or put aside in light of the other projects.. because the reality for me is that even if these projects do come to light and are successful I would STILL probably play CoH if it was ever made available..

Assuming the SCORE people are at least as passionate as the rest of these forums are (and how can they not be?) I doubt they will ever "forget" or "put aside" bringing back our city!
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JKPhage on November 30, 2013, 06:22:39 PM
Oh yeah and since we're dreaming and wishing? I really hope we can get rid of those aggro limits. I miss the old days of Perez Park, and also dumpster diving.

This just brings up the wonderful thought for me that I'm not sure everyone fully grasps or appreciates if they haven't ever used a "private server" before: This will finally, truly be OUR city. Once you lay the framework for the game and the servers, the rest is up to the people running the server. They'll be able to add new powersets, tweak old ones, add zones, add whole story arcs, badges, TFs, anything. They can create a hard-mode server where street mobs are three levels higher and you gain XP at half the rate, or an easy mode server where you start at level 50. There is a whole world of possibility, and with such a creative community as ours the sky truly is the limit. We have artists and modelers, writers and developers, math wizards and code experts.

If we get together as a community and decide we want to complete the Wind Control set that never even got animations, we can put our people to work designing animations and effects, balancing the numbers, and writing the code for it, then it can simply be implemented and we'll have a brand new power set. We can create new custom animations/power themes/effects as a community and implement them. I'm sure plenty of talented artists among us would be able to create the proper graphical assets to give Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation/Dark Whatever the same inky effects as Darkness Control. We could add an extra power to Darkness Control itself that would give you a different pet than the dark wolf and make them mutually exclusive. We could perform proliferation ourselves. And that's just POWERS. Considering all the amazing story arcs from Architect, we could introduce enough content to keep the missions going for decades, create new assets for new zones, we could rebuild Boomtown, make that Rikti EAT that was always talked about, hell, with enough work, we could even create Clown Summoning!

I'm just as excited for this as anyone, even if none of this happens. I just want my city back, the way it was at the end, and I'm willing to wait however long it takes to get it back, but if we really take the initiative then we won't have to settle for just having it back, we can rebuild from the ashes and make it better than it ever was.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on November 30, 2013, 11:15:43 PM
This just brings up the wonderful thought for me that I'm not sure everyone fully grasps or appreciates if they haven't ever used a "private server" before: This will finally, truly be OUR city. Once you lay the framework for the game and the servers, the rest is up to the people running the server. They'll be able to add new powersets, tweak old ones, add zones, add whole story arcs, badges, TFs, anything. They can create a hard-mode server where street mobs are three levels higher and you gain XP at half the rate, or an easy mode server where you start at level 50. There is a whole world of possibility, and with such a creative community as ours the sky truly is the limit. We have artists and modelers, writers and developers, math wizards and code experts.

We can also reasonably hope that people will be able to share innovations like this that they develop on their own servers in packages so that other servers can import and implement them.  See you in Atlas 333.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Gleech on December 01, 2013, 04:50:06 AM
This just brings up the wonderful thought for me that I'm not sure everyone fully grasps or appreciates if they haven't ever used a "private server" before: This will finally, truly be OUR city. Once you lay the framework for the game and the servers, the rest is up to the people running the server. They'll be able to add new powersets, tweak old ones, add zones, add whole story arcs, badges, TFs, anything. They can create a hard-mode server where street mobs are three levels higher and you gain XP at half the rate, or an easy mode server where you start at level 50. There is a whole world of possibility, and with such a creative community as ours the sky truly is the limit. We have artists and modelers, writers and developers, math wizards and code experts.

If we get together as a community and decide we want to complete the Wind Control set that never even got animations, we can put our people to work designing animations and effects, balancing the numbers, and writing the code for it, then it can simply be implemented and we'll have a brand new power set. We can create new custom animations/power themes/effects as a community and implement them. I'm sure plenty of talented artists among us would be able to create the proper graphical assets to give Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation/Dark Whatever the same inky effects as Darkness Control. We could add an extra power to Darkness Control itself that would give you a different pet than the dark wolf and make them mutually exclusive. We could perform proliferation ourselves. And that's just POWERS. Considering all the amazing story arcs from Architect, we could introduce enough content to keep the missions going for decades, create new assets for new zones, we could rebuild Boomtown, make that Rikti EAT that was always talked about, hell, with enough work, we could even create Clown Summoning!

I'm just as excited for this as anyone, even if none of this happens. I just want my city back, the way it was at the end, and I'm willing to wait however long it takes to get it back, but if we really take the initiative then we won't have to settle for just having it back, we can rebuild from the ashes and make it better than it ever was.
You're making me water at the mouth with all of that... D:
(I've run servers before, but a CoH one would be so much better than any other one I've run...)

Well, I was hoping for the 1 year anniversary of CoH's closing SCORE would drop a little hint bomb on us about the completion status of the project. But oh well, I guess not (that I'm aware of)... : (
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: HEATSTROKE on December 01, 2013, 04:51:28 AM
This just brings up the wonderful thought for me that I'm not sure everyone fully grasps or appreciates if they haven't ever used a "private server" before: This will finally, truly be OUR city. Once you lay the framework for the game and the servers, the rest is up to the people running the server. They'll be able to add new powersets, tweak old ones, add zones, add whole story arcs, badges, TFs, anything. They can create a hard-mode server where street mobs are three levels higher and you gain XP at half the rate, or an easy mode server where you start at level 50. There is a whole world of possibility, and with such a creative community as ours the sky truly is the limit. We have artists and modelers, writers and developers, math wizards and code experts.

If we get together as a community and decide we want to complete the Wind Control set that never even got animations, we can put our people to work designing animations and effects, balancing the numbers, and writing the code for it, then it can simply be implemented and we'll have a brand new power set. We can create new custom animations/power themes/effects as a community and implement them. I'm sure plenty of talented artists among us would be able to create the proper graphical assets to give Dark Blast/Dark Manipulation/Dark Whatever the same inky effects as Darkness Control. We could add an extra power to Darkness Control itself that would give you a different pet than the dark wolf and make them mutually exclusive. We could perform proliferation ourselves. And that's just POWERS. Considering all the amazing story arcs from Architect, we could introduce enough content to keep the missions going for decades, create new assets for new zones, we could rebuild Boomtown, make that Rikti EAT that was always talked about, hell, with enough work, we could even create Clown Summoning!

I'm just as excited for this as anyone, even if none of this happens. I just want my city back, the way it was at the end, and I'm willing to wait however long it takes to get it back, but if we really take the initiative then we won't have to settle for just having it back, we can rebuild from the ashes and make it better than it ever was.

I think that is a bit overly ambitious.. Id love to see an Issue 23/24 version down the line some time
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: CoyoteSeven on December 01, 2013, 10:34:42 PM
I think that is a bit overly ambitious.. Id love to see an Issue 23/24 version down the line some time

I'd give SCORE about the same chances as the ReactOS project, in not only reaching but maybe surpassing what the original developers had in mind. And I'm totally behind both of those.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Illusionss on December 01, 2013, 10:42:36 PM
I am down with people tinkering with the original game; the only thing that might run me off is open-world PvP because: no.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Arachnion on December 01, 2013, 10:51:54 PM
I think that is a bit overly ambitious.. Id love to see an Issue 23/24 version down the line some time

You'd be surprised what people can do with free time, familiarity with what they're messing with, and just plain ol' ingenuity.

Trust me, I've been on private servers for other games like JK speaks of in the past.. if SCoRE has a firm grasp of the CoH code and framework..

If nothing else, I'm sure they're working hard to bring us back our city at all.

Keep up hope.

:)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: MWRuger on December 02, 2013, 12:58:30 AM
I'm holding on, waiting, watching and hoping. I check in daily to see if anything is happening. I donate money every month. I remain hopeful, but weary.

This last year has been the worst year of my life and I really could have used City of Heroes to unwind with. It always made me feel better and like things mattered. I've said it before. It's still true. I just want to play City of Heroes again before I die.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JKPhage on December 02, 2013, 05:13:43 AM
I am down with people tinkering with the original game; the only thing that might run me off is open-world PvP because: no.

Yeah: this.

I'm sure a PVP server wouldn't be a bad thing for those that enjoy it, and it's a totally viable option, especially when people can tinker with the mechanics and "fix" PVP as so many were begging for all those years. That's the beauty of private servers, you can do anything you want with them given enough time and knowledge. And I don't believe I'm mistaken in thinking that a few members of the dev team are still lingering around this community.

And I don't think I'm being overly ambitious. Perhaps a bit pre-emptive, considering we don't even have a running server yet, but all things in time. Once we have the game up and running again it's really a rather simple matter to add basic things like effects and such. Given, zones/powersets/story arcs/etc. will take a decent chunk of time to put together, but when you have a whole community of devotees working on it without budget/timeline woes and corporate restrictions to deal with I don't think it'll be near as difficult as some people imagine. I've experienced WoW servers that autolevel your toon to max on first log-in with class appropriate raiding gear and plunk you in the middle of a custom built town with vendors selling basically everything in the game. If they can do it, so can we.

Either way, I'm not expecting all of this out of the gate. I know it's gonna be baby steps. At first we're gonna be dealing with a server that has tons of bugs, events that don't play out right, wonky collision detection, enemies spawning in walls and myriad other things that will have to be ironed out before we get it back to "official" status, and then we can build from there. All I'm saying is that with a community so creative, and a game that not only nurtured but ENCOURAGED that creativity, there's no way that we're gonna be satisfied leaving it at that. I for one would love to see some kind of community panel to choose a new "story team" who can put their game knowledge and love of the lore to use expanding our game even further. Time will tell, but so far the future is looking bright.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Little David on December 02, 2013, 10:21:32 AM
/em holdtorch until the day arrives. and much Kudos to the secret folks doing secret things !

In the meantime, I fully understand why some things might be kept under the radar.

("loose lips might sink ships" cut for brevity)

Yes. Very yes. It happened before and it can happen again. (http://www.toworldsunknown.com/2011/11/infinite-rasa-is-no-more.html) I don't remember the exact specifics as to why it happened with those guys, but people were openly spreading the word to all kinds of forums and gaming sites. That couldn't have been good for their health.

Anyway, normally I am really, really against the idea of private servers. The first real MMO I got into was gutted by runaway pirate servers, to the point that people tend to think the game was meant to be free and open source in the first place. You know the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth?" Those guys considered several hundred times the EXP rate to be so-called "low rate servers." I had warred long with irreverent pirate server spamvertizers who saw my webcomic's community as nothing but ad space. So I tend to have a really sour view of them in general.

Here, though? We're one of the few major exceptions to the rule. As a communty we were and are fiercely loyal to the dev studio that made our game; we didn't try to screw them over by not paying to play it. We stuck by them to the end, and tried everything we could to convince NCSoft to let us keep paying them so we could continue playing. Not only did we stick by the devs to the end, we treated them to a nice dinner after NCSoft gave them all the pink slip.

... I gotta stop dragging my soapbox everywhere.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: CoyoteSeven on December 02, 2013, 08:46:32 PM
Here, though? We're one of the few major exceptions to the rule.

So then... in the defunct MMO community, we're the Mongols?
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: blacksly on December 02, 2013, 08:51:55 PM
I've experienced WoW servers that autolevel your toon to max on first log-in with class appropriate raiding gear and plunk you in the middle of a custom built town with vendors selling basically everything in the game. If they can do it, so can we.

Having worked on code for a few private-run UO servers, I can tell you that with a good coding team, you can make some amazing difference and changes in how the game works.

What you cannot do easily, is make new graphics. Re-use old ones in interesting ways, perhaps, but just to make a single new weapon in UO required a ton of pictures for animations... maybe it would be a bit easier in CoH with its animation framework system rather than a tile-based graphics system, but I doubt that it will be at all easy... just, perhaps, easier than "not worth the effort" like in UO.

That said, UO emulators converted the UO skill systems to class-based systems, level-up systems, point-purchase systems. I wrote a full new magic system replacing the default UO spells completely... so, in theory, once there is an emulator, it can be customized to do nearly anything under the existing graphics.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: MWRuger on December 02, 2013, 11:12:28 PM
I think graphics can be done. You need a decent 3-d modeler and good understanding of how the graphics in COH work. Unless is something really different, you may be able to mod a current animation to be paired with a new weapon.

But all this waits upon the success of secret works.
 
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Little David on December 03, 2013, 01:11:02 AM
So then... in the defunct MMO community, we're the Mongols?

Not sure what you mean there.

Keep in mind though, that when I was talking about my usual intense dislike of pirate servers and why I insist on calling them pirate servers, my examples were about people running pirate servers for MMOs that were (and in many cases still are) not defunct. Those types were providing absolutely-free alternatives to the game while it was still live and receiving updates and support. On some level, that financially hurt the legit game servers and developers, especially before F2P became the norm economic model.

The CoH community didn't do that. Titan Network has even said that while it was their holy grail to emulate the CoH server because that would prove they have mastered all knowledge of how it works, they didn't consider developing an emulator for circulation while the game was still extant. It's hard to say how many people would stop paying to play CoH during the time it was alive if there was an emulator in circulation, especially after the move to F2P, but I am sure there would have been some sort of financial hit to Paragon Studios if it had happened.

That's what I was getting at, the main difference between us and the pirate server types that have boiled my blood plenty of times over the years. The pirate server communities of other MMOs I've played care nothing for the devs who created the game, and some in fact actually hoped to ruin said developers financially. As in, they wanted to drive the devs into bankruptcy by starving them of paying customers.

We were and are just the opposite of that, and honestly there's no greater proof than the way we showed our solidarity through that dinner we funded for the laid-off Paragon team.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 03, 2013, 03:52:20 AM
I'm also struck by the fact that with the client containing the AE interface, there's at least the control system for player generated missions, mobs and NPCs (as ICON demonstrates) -- so even if there were issues with playing "City of Heroes", you could replace all of the game content with new community-developed content developed from the client resources and played on the Client's maps -- a "Neutronium squad mission" rather than a "Positron task force", if you will.  Just ask Stellarman's neice, Liberty Lady who's standing in front of that big Atlas statue in "City Center".

And since the Client content was released freely, it would seem difficult to justify legal action against such a game server even ignoring the multiplicity of servers from freely released reverse engineering.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Gleech on December 03, 2013, 04:42:54 AM
...my examples were about people running pirate servers for MMOs that were (and in many cases still are) not defunct. Those types were providing absolutely-free alternatives to the game while it was still live and receiving updates and support. On some level, that financially hurt the legit game servers and developers, especially before F2P became the norm economic model.
Okay I don't mean to start anything with this, but I must say you're giving Private Servers a little too much crap. I've run them before, and I know for sure that one major reason that CoH never got one is because there was little to nothing seriously wrong with the game. There was nothing wrong enough to make players go "man I wanna' make my own version of the game!" Look at all the games popular for Private Servers:
Maplestory (Pre-Big Bang):
 - Slow Leveling
 - Difficult to start
 - Difficult to get money
 - Cash shop items (had to pay real money)

Runescape:
 - Slow leveling
 - Tedious gameplay
 - (semi) difficult to earn money

And a lesser known game: LaTale:
 - Slow Leveling
 - Can be difficult to play
 - Semi-tedious gameplay

I can't say much for WoW (If it has private servers) because I honestly only played a trial of it and didn't get a very good opinion on the game, but from what I DID gather it had slow leveling.
Why else would players want to make their servers have huge EXP boosts? The problem is not the servers themselves, it's the players running them if you look at it like that. They're lazy and wanted a quick fix to being good at a game.
They key to this point is: Most (if not all) of the games with private servers available had some issues that players hated but Devs didn't care to fix / didn't feel the need to fix.

Does that mean I hate people who make 150x exp Private Servers? No. It's what those people want. The point of a private server is that it's your OWN little private server.

As for "Ruining the game studios" and "wanting the devs to go bankrupt"... There's very little proof that private servers have THAT much impact on a game. You think Nexon is crying in a corner because people are making Maplestory Private servers? No...

Here's a good example of where private servers are good when it comes to currently running games: When the devs royally mess up a game. Example: Maplestory. It use to be fun. Though it did have a problem with difficulty, it gave it a nostalgic charm looking back. I wouldn't have known it for much if it didn't have any such infamy. It was tedious, difficult... but oh so addicting. It had it's fair share of Private Servers for those who liked the "get high-leveled quick" stuff, but the game itself was always 100x more populated than any private server I ever saw. However, once Maplestory's Big Bang update came out and changed literally everything about how the game played, I wanted to go back. I didn't want to be handed level 100 on a silver platter. So I decided a private server should be put up for my friends and I.

Think Nexon is crying over losing us as players? Doubt it. I'm sure they're swimming in their pools of cash right now.

Point is: Private servers aren't necessarily bad. You're just looking at them in a bad light. You're making it sound like everyone who associates with them should be put on a blacklist and hunted down as monsters. You literally have been saying they wish the death of game studios:
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and some in fact actually hoped to ruin said developers financially. As in, they wanted to drive the devs into bankruptcy by starving them of paying customers.
I've yet to see a game where a Private Server has legitly bankrupt the developers. And if it did, maybe it was the publishers faults in the first place for bad marketing. It's all about the players desires for what a game should be like. That's what Private Servers are normally made for. Are you going to say I'm horrible and am trying to ruin Nexon because I want Maplestory to be the way it use to be but with my own little touch?

I'm not trying to bash you in any way shape-or-form, and I'm not trying to start a huge argument. I'm just trying to let you know a little bit more about the world of Private Servers. Just because there are a few bad eggs out there doesn't mean the whole community is evil.

Anyway more on topic:
Really I just sort of wish SCORE could drop us a few notes here and there just to basically announce they're officially working on something. Though I'm sure there's more behind it, the secrecy is just a little irritating for me... Like, dang, I'd love to just sit there and read a huge list of patch notes if they released any.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Little David on December 03, 2013, 05:33:25 AM
Okay I don't mean to start anything with this, but I must say you're giving Private Servers a little too much crap. I've run them before ...

Well, I'm going to be frank, you are pushing my buttons, especially since you're casting yourself as a stalwart proliferator of pirate servers for extant games. That is nothing to be proud of.

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... and I know for sure that one major reason that CoH never got one is because there was little to nothing seriously wrong with the game. There was nothing wrong enough to make players go "man I wanna' make my own version of the game!"

Lest you forget, City of Heroes used to have a thriving PvP community. I'm not much one for PvP, but I did notice that Paragon/Cryptic did wind up alienating the lot of them with some developer decisions. In fact I recall that in the final days of CoH, some of them came back to troll the boards with some nastygrams for the devs.

As positive as I am about the overall CoH community, I haven't forgotten how we as a whole used to spend pages of threads debating about game mechanics we disliked. But to my knowledge, it remained debate, and no one tried serious attempts to undermine Paragon. Maybe part of that is because the people who had the resources and opportunity to undermine Paragon if they wanted were instead supportive of the devs.

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I can't say much for WoW (If it has private servers) because I honestly only played a trial of it and didn't get a very good opinion on the game, but from what I DID gather it had slow leveling.

It does. That's another reason why I call City of Heroes the exception to the rule, because no viable server emulators were released in its day. In World of Warcraft's case, it's the 800 pound gorilla in the market. It's one of the few games that can shrug off the significant problem of pirate servers because it would actually cost more to pursue legal action than it would to take the loss.

But WoW is, again, the 800-pound gorilla. I wouldn't be surprised if someone did the numbers and found out their current subs is still a match for the legit playerbases of all other MMOs currently on the market, or close to it. Considering how many other MMOs tend to live short lives, I think it's worth considering that your actions might not be harmless.

I believe this also addresses your dismissal of financial damage caused to MMO developers by your bringing up Nexon and what not.

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They key to this point is: Most (if not all) of the games with private servers available had some issues that players hated but Devs didn't care to fix / didn't feel the need to fix.

Remember what I said about "too many cooks spoil the broth?" This is exactly what I am talking about.

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Point is: Private servers aren't necessarily bad. You're just looking at them in a bad light. You're making it sound like everyone who associates with them should be put on a blacklist and hunted down as monsters.

By eschewing a game that's legitimately on the market for a pirate server, you are doing a disservice to the game developers. There is no wiggle room for discussion on that point. People who regularly pay and play on the legitimate servers while using some private server for build testing or whatever, that's a gray area on my moral compass--but they are still supporting the devs, which is more than I can say for a lot of pirate serve players.

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You literally have been saying they wish the death of game studios:I've yet to see a game where a Private Server has legitly bankrupt the developers.

So you say. But it would be intellectually dishonest not to even consider that piracy of an extant MMO has a significant effect on the developers' viability, no?

Remember what Greenheart Games did with Game Dev Tycoon? (http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/29/technology/innovation/game-dev-tycoon-piracy/) Not an MMO, sure, but the point they make has relevancy. Note that their experiment revealed that 94% of the people playing the game were pirating it, not buying it. And this is even taking to account the people who "try before they buy" through this method.

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And if it did, maybe it was the publishers faults in the first place for bad marketing.

If you're saying this to completely dismiss the impact of pirate servers on a developers' survival, then that sounds like victim blaming to me.

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It's all about the players desires for what a game should be like. That's what Private Servers are normally made for. Are you going to say I'm horrible and am trying to ruin Nexon because I want Maplestory to be the way it use to be but with my own little touch?

Your solution to "fixing" games isn't a solution at all, that's the problem. You're helping to spoil that broth. As they said once at Broken Toys, Fixing MMOs is Hard (http://web.archive.org/web/20090206165151/http://www.brokentoys.org/2009/02/03/fixing-mmos-is-hard/).

You claim that it's all about the player's desires. Broken Toys addresses that with his response under "Listen to, and engage with, players:"

"The players are often WRONG.

What’s more, they will lie to you.

DIRECTLY.

TO YOUR FACE.

No, really, their class is horribly underpowered, any fool would know that if they only played the game and that bug you’re talking about is really a feature and anyway you shouldn’t remove it because our entire side is underpopulated so it’s only fair.

The players are not the ones at financial risk if your game fails. They simply move on after consuming all you have to offer.

Of course the players are also often right. There’s a whole discipline of development which revolves around figuring out which is which. At least until they figure out they’re the least paid people at the company and move on to junior worldbuilder so they finally get some respect in the break room.

But engaging with players entails the willingness to do some very fundamental things which, to date, have been unpopular with both developers and players."


See that thing about financial risk? What do you think you're doing to the developer of your beloved game when you all scatter to ten thousand pirate servers because you want to play the game with one minor tweak or another?

There is a fine line when it comes to figuring out whether what the devs are planning or what the gamers want is good for the game as a whole.

Tangent here, but putting aside the whole issue of financial risk that pirating an extant MMO does to the developers, ditching the legit game for a pirate server just because you want to make a minor change is not nearly as justifiable as when it comes to the mod scene for single-player or limited multiplayer games. On that side of the pool, everyone's playng in small groups anyway, so companies can embrace modding and let players tinker to their hearts' desire. MMOs, however, by their nature feature some form of community and world persistence. So on top of the whole financial issue, this fragmentation also dilutes the whole community aspect of MMOs.

And I am saying this as a guy who does a lot of solo play in MMOs. Even as a lone wolf, I still connect with the game's greater community.

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I'm not trying to bash you in any way shape-or-form, and I'm not trying to start a huge argument. I'm just trying to let you know a little bit more about the world of Private Servers. Just because there are a few bad eggs out there doesn't mean the whole community is evil.

Honestly, I think it's you who doesn't have the whole picture. I think now would be a good time to drop this link here:

http://adultimum.net/rw/extras.php?section=soapbox

That's an essay I wrote on the impact of pirate servers in 2004, when they exploded on the scene for the particular MMO I played. I think that's all the evidence you'll need. No, I didn't go far as to cite sources (and given the transient nature of the internet, especially forum posts and other evidence, citing sources is difficult anyway), but this essay was the product of talking with people who had insider knowledge of what was going on at Gravity, as well as close encounters of the pirate server kind.

You need to remember, I have a long history of dealing with pirate server types. My opinions weren't formed out of a vacuum.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 03, 2013, 06:51:22 AM
piracy is piracy.

One may go 89 mph in a 45 mph, zone, just because one gets away with it doesn't make it legal.


But depends on how it goes about, especially with a game no longer functioning, and I remember those talks about private server way back around ED time period, and again around i13 time period. Each time, it was decided no, it wouldn't be right mostly and the EULA and etc stuff.

When a game that have the current game running go after private server they usually win, and the private server owner usually get stuck with a "damages" bill and EULA held up.

Defunct game, gray area, sometimes it goes either way and more about HOW it's done. Many mess up when they start charging, even through "donations" because the server is coming out of the private server owner pocket. Free ones, very gray, some get shut down some don't.

NCSOFT shut dome down, and some they didn't. The biggest mistake is to automatically assume that NCSOFT will definitely just turn a blind eye even if the code is released to the winds. Because one that could be taken asa sign of the party knew they were doing something illegal and the originator, and yes, everything can be tracked to the source, can and in some cases been held liable for the damages as new servers pop up and sometimes end up with a bigger bill then they would have ended up with if they ran a private server while the game was running.



Remember the easiest way to get away with a crime is to KNOW the law and what can happen. When someone try to steal say a pack of gum out of Walmart and go in assuming the guards are not going to do anything, it's only a pack of gum, that is when they end up in court, charged with shop lifting and a criminal record, over a pack of gum. When if they instead weighed the risks, knew where and what the guards do, get in and out, they might have gotten away. But even then just because they get away, doesn't make it legal.

But yeah there are some pretty messed up private servers out there and pretending they don't exist isn't doing any service either.In fact it could be used to know what to look for in a bootleg server and as a tool to help the person that is planning on running one or partake in one, measure the risks accurately.

It's good things are being kept under wraps overall but lets face it by now, anyone that care to look can see or seen or know there is one in the works, and may just be waiting for physical evidence before leaping. Eventually word will get out and since it's already been pre planned that it will be purposely spread out to the wind, that is evidence that it was premeditated. and not something that "just kind of happened by accident"
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on December 03, 2013, 05:25:10 PM
I'm all for supporting developers. Most private servers fail to live up to the official IMO, either through performance or due to unbalanced changes. They might be interesting to visit on a lark but most do not foster a true sense of loyalty... at least not from me. I've poked my head around private servers of various games out of curiosity but I've never stayed because they just didn't "feel" right.

With that said. City of Heroes is no longer being developed officially. It doesn't exist anymore. So in our case creating a private server for COH isn't robbing anyone of income of threatening the "future" of the game. I feel no ethical conflict with supporting the SCORE server when it finally appears. I paid for the game City of Heroes. I even bought the collector's edition after the fact so I bought it twice. I bought City of Villains. I bought costume packs. I spent hundreds in the store when Freedom launched and I paid years of monthly subscriptions. They made their money from me and damn it if I won't feel completely justified playing on whatever server the community manages to get running after they pulled the rug out from under a game that I loved.

I'll be grateful for whatever the community manages to conjure up for us. I just hope it won't be too long in the coming.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Little David on December 03, 2013, 06:15:34 PM
With that said. City of Heroes is no longer being developed officially. It doesn't exist anymore. So in our case creating a private server for COH isn't robbing anyone of income of threatening the "future" of the game. I feel no ethical conflict with supporting the SCORE server when it finally appears.

I'd just like to stress that I feel exactly the same way. I don't want people thinking I'm against S.C.O.R.E because of my exchange with Gleech. My beef is, again, with the people who proliferate or play on pirate servers while the game is legitimately available. S.C.O.R.E and Infinite Rasa (which I mentioned earlier) are nothing like that.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on December 03, 2013, 06:54:30 PM
I'd just like to stress that I feel exactly the same way. I don't want people thinking I'm against S.C.O.R.E because of my exchange with Gleech. My beef is, again, with the people who proliferate or play on pirate servers while the game is legitimately available. S.C.O.R.E and Infinite Rasa (which I mentioned earlier) are nothing like that.

Oh I know that's what you meant. I apologize if it seemed I misunderstood! I guess I was trying to convey that I feel similarly to you but failed at doing so.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Gleech on December 03, 2013, 10:59:09 PM
*Too long to quote. Just using this as an addressing reference to avoid confusion*
Sorry I wasn't able to reply earlier today. I had to go to school.
Anyway:
Most private servers fail to live up to the official IMO, either through performance or due to unbalanced changes. They might be interesting to visit on a lark but most do not foster a true sense of loyalty... at least not from me. I've poked my head around private servers of various games out of curiosity but I've never stayed because they just didn't "feel" right.
This basically sums up anything I would've said.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Tahquitz on December 04, 2013, 01:25:14 AM
I have a feeling that a small cadre of this website will know about this, and when it's "public" a C&D order will come rapidly.  By the time the majority of us know about it, it will already be over.  (Counting myself in the clueless masses here, I'm nobody special myself.)  And every discussion that happens about these projects (before any news actually happens) just makes this outcome more and more certain.  Unless, of course, such a thing ends up becoming invitation only.

Why?  Think about it: unless someone in Titan Network knows you, you're completely SOL because there's no way to sort out actual past players and "bad actors" seeking to get in to report it to NCSoft (who may have years of chat logs, user names and data to draw from): no one could possibly know everyone from the old forums and each individual server who was a "reputable" player who can vouch for others.  In fact, who's to say anyone knows this is actually me typing?  Except for "Forum celebs" and Freedom/Virtue personalities, I wouldn't count on being included personally.

But I know nothing.  I'm full of speculation. And I have no weight to speak or any stake in such a project, so I shouldn't be talking at all.

Why am I still writing?
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Little David on December 04, 2013, 01:35:21 AM
I'm certain what happened to Infinite Rasa didn't escape notice, Tahquitz. I can't speculate on their game plan if they're even pursuing S.C.O.R.E. still, but when it comes to emulators ... once a viable one is released, it's like letting a genie out of a bottle. Bad news for extant MMOs, but very good news for communities of dead ones like ours.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on December 04, 2013, 02:28:18 AM
I have a feeling that a small cadre of this website will know about this, and when it's "public" a C&D order will come rapidly.  By the time the majority of us know about it, it will already be over.  (Counting myself in the clueless masses here, I'm nobody special myself.)  And every discussion that happens about these projects (before any news actually happens) just makes this outcome more and more certain.  Unless, of course, such a thing ends up becoming invitation only.

Why?  Think about it: unless someone in Titan Network knows you, you're completely SOL because there's no way to sort out actual past players and "bad actors" seeking to get in to report it to NCSoft (who may have years of chat logs, user names and data to draw from): no one could possibly know everyone from the old forums and each individual server who was a "reputable" player who can vouch for others.  In fact, who's to say anyone knows this is actually me typing?  Except for "Forum celebs" and Freedom/Virtue personalities, I wouldn't count on being included personally.

But I know nothing.  I'm full of speculation. And I have no weight to speak or any stake in such a project, so I shouldn't be talking at all.

Why am I still writing?

From my understanding, when it goes "public" there wont be any single person to send a C&D to :) NC Soft wont be able to stop it once its out in the wild. Cause no one person will have it. It'll just be everywhere then! I cant wait!
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Tahquitz on December 04, 2013, 03:12:44 AM
Perhaps I should change my handle on here.  How about "Doubt Boy"? :D
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 04, 2013, 03:15:52 AM
From my understanding, when it goes "public" there wont be any single person to send a C&D to :) NC Soft wont be able to stop it once its out in the wild. Cause no one person will have it. It'll just be everywhere then! I cant wait!
Yes and no. There is still the person that sent it into the wild. And courts tend to frown upon that because then unlike if it was a single server, they just can "quit" and that be the end of it.
But then again if the initiator is incognito somehow, aka untraceable or at least very hard to trace, then it should go without a hitch.

What I'm getting at even when it's time, the person to release it to the wild cant go "here is the link I made, now spread it"  Because then it will be on record of who exactly and where it came from.
Then yeah, the rest of the servers may not be able to get shut down but that person or persons they catch can still be charged with copyright infringement and or contributory copyright infringement with the punishment of the tow being nearly the same.

Of course they wont go after every single private server any more than with the Napster case they didn't go after every single person who used Napster. I the end Napster paid dearly for them all in a way.  And did it stop music piracy? Heck no. But believe it or not, that isn't the point. It's a public execution in a sense of it's more about a show of force than actually solving the problem. The question is, is someone prepared to be the chicken that is sacrificed for the greater good?

As  Tahquitz said, no telling who is who and this private server thing been spread around even recall seeing it mentioned in the comment section of some Massively articles, that only thing secret to the people right now is who is working on it. Someone could be gathering and archiving every bit of information about this entire project as we speak, and turning it in. And in reality, it can go a long way with intent. Someone who didn't know, and copy a song here and there are usually let off with, a don't do it again. But when the intent is clear with the plan on taking something and trying to make sure they will never find out and spread it to the wild, then yeah better have a J. Cochran hanging about to explain that one wasn't with the intent to knowingly distribute copyrighted materials. 

Best thing yet, is simply don't get caught, either way, just in case until the gray is clear. I know some people cant wait until it's up and running so they can mail NCSOFT "Screw you ha I got a private server" letter, but that can be slam dunk ruinous. And when they get it up and running, they probably should play hot potatoe and get it out quickly and then lay low. And or use something that cant be traced. Yes public library computers can be traced. Many hackers and child porn people got caught not because of what was on their personal computer but what they did in public computers. This isn't the movies.

But I think they can pull it off if they are smart about it and restrain from trying to shove it in NCSOFT face when it do go live. If they are going to find out about it let them do the leg work and not do it for them by teasing them with it.  Because hey, if we leave them alone about it they may not bother, but if people started getting bold and everytime it turns around it's about how players are screwing NCSOFT because they have a private server or getting back at NCSOFT, then NCSOFT may have no choice but to do something or else it may send message that anyone can do it and NCSOFT wont do a single thing. Then word of C&D or worse gets out, then people see that, and NCSOFT count of people saying hey, NCSOFT shut down another private server. While some think it's more negative publicity, in a way it's a sign that NCSOFT don't play when it comes to that. Blizzard, yeah they seem spotty. sometimes they shut down a few others times they don't seem to bother.  I still cant help to think in did it ever cross anyone mind to simply ask NCSOFT? Never know what they may say. They may say yes. If they say no, then it was expected anyways and the route doesn't change.

 But on the internet, there is no such thing as secret. Most countries even signed a anti-piracy agreement meaning that if one even say copy something from India and that Indian company make a fuss, the US will look into it. Those countries that havent signed are mostly countries where copyright would be least of the worries, like Iran, and other countries where if someone did a proxy origin name with those countries it would raise more serious flags than copyright. But even Proxies are not as secret as they used to be because the proxy server still have on their database the true origin. And a lot easier to obtain records than it used to be and what the proxy ads let on. Kind of side effect I chasing online criminals. And with IPs not wanting to be responsible for activites of the consumer usually turn over records or rid of the customer rather than get tangled in that sort of mess.

Who every release it into the wild, they have to be on their A game. Because if it spreads like intended then they could be pegged as beyond simple personal copyright to international big stakes copyright infringement person. And in the law it do states that the law applies regardless if money was made or not. This is all assuming if crap hits the fan or there is indeed something illegal going on. But if done properly then there should not be much worries.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 04, 2013, 03:18:00 AM
Perhaps I should change my handle on here.  How about "Doubt Boy"? :D
You made some good points there.

The web ain't what it used to be where a person can pick a handle and there is no chance anyone else could link them to anything.

I want this thing to succeed. Well no I don't want it to succeed. I want it to succeed and stay succeeding. And not say "hey look, COX is back." then few months later, "hey look COX is gone again."



The enemy may or may not use guns but I'm still going to take mine anyways just in case. Ratehr have it and not fire a single shot because they indeed didn't not have guns  instead of banking on too much optimism thinking, "Well there is a chance they don't have guns. That means they WILL NOT have guns." and run in there unprepared and end up at the business end of a bunch of AKs because while usually they don't carry guns, that day they decided to test out their new shipment.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Tahquitz on December 04, 2013, 03:25:19 AM
The web ain't what it used to be where a person can pick a handle and there is no chance anyone else could link them to anything.

I meant that in jest.  I don't give a rat's ass about my past. (And I doubt there's any Louis L'Amour fans among this group, unless someone lives close enough to Idyllwild, CA where the mountain actually resides.)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 04, 2013, 03:38:44 AM
I meant that in jest.  I don't give a rat's ass about my past. (And I doubt there's any Louis L'Amour fans among this group, unless someone lives close enough to Idyllwild, CA where the mountain actually resides.)

I'm talking in general. Not your name change in particular.

My past, pfft, boring as crap, nothing to see there, plus I'm a man of habit and only travel to a few sites, post on even fewer and use nearly the same name or one other from years ago that I recently revived. Then again I always post assuming that it's there forever and can come up later at anytime with what ever I do online. But then again, I have to if I plan on moving up my career path because next step I will need a top secret clearance. And depending on the job, they sometimes go into depth (that is how I rediscovered my past online handle. I was like WTH? Oh yeah, I thanks for reminding me.)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on December 04, 2013, 01:56:18 PM
Yes and no. There is still the person that sent it into the wild. And courts tend to frown upon that because then unlike if it was a single server, they just can "quit" and that be the end of it.
But then again if the initiator is incognito somehow, aka untraceable or at least very hard to trace, then it should go without a hitch.

What I'm getting at even when it's time, the person to release it to the wild cant go "here is the link I made, now spread it"  Because then it will be on record of who exactly and where it came from.
Then yeah, the rest of the servers may not be able to get shut down but that person or persons they catch can still be charged with copyright infringement and or contributory copyright infringement with the punishment of the tow being nearly the same.

Of course they wont go after every single private server any more than with the Napster case they didn't go after every single person who used Napster. I the end Napster paid dearly for them all in a way.  And did it stop music piracy? Heck no. But believe it or not, that isn't the point. It's a public execution in a sense of it's more about a show of force than actually solving the problem. The question is, is someone prepared to be the chicken that is sacrificed for the greater good?

As  Tahquitz said, no telling who is who and this private server thing been spread around even recall seeing it mentioned in the comment section of some Massively articles, that only thing secret to the people right now is who is working on it. Someone could be gathering and archiving every bit of information about this entire project as we speak, and turning it in. And in reality, it can go a long way with intent. Someone who didn't know, and copy a song here and there are usually let off with, a don't do it again. But when the intent is clear with the plan on taking something and trying to make sure they will never find out and spread it to the wild, then yeah better have a J. Cochran hanging about to explain that one wasn't with the intent to knowingly distribute copyrighted materials. 

Best thing yet, is simply don't get caught, either way, just in case until the gray is clear. I know some people cant wait until it's up and running so they can mail NCSOFT "Screw you ha I got a private server" letter, but that can be slam dunk ruinous. And when they get it up and running, they probably should play hot potatoe and get it out quickly and then lay low. And or use something that cant be traced. Yes public library computers can be traced. Many hackers and child porn people got caught not because of what was on their personal computer but what they did in public computers. This isn't the movies.

But I think they can pull it off if they are smart about it and restrain from trying to shove it in NCSOFT face when it do go live. If they are going to find out about it let them do the leg work and not do it for them by teasing them with it.  Because hey, if we leave them alone about it they may not bother, but if people started getting bold and everytime it turns around it's about how players are screwing NCSOFT because they have a private server or getting back at NCSOFT, then NCSOFT may have no choice but to do something or else it may send message that anyone can do it and NCSOFT wont do a single thing. Then word of C&D or worse gets out, then people see that, and NCSOFT count of people saying hey, NCSOFT shut down another private server. While some think it's more negative publicity, in a way it's a sign that NCSOFT don't play when it comes to that. Blizzard, yeah they seem spotty. sometimes they shut down a few others times they don't seem to bother.  I still cant help to think in did it ever cross anyone mind to simply ask NCSOFT? Never know what they may say. They may say yes. If they say no, then it was expected anyways and the route doesn't change.

 But on the internet, there is no such thing as secret. Most countries even signed a anti-piracy agreement meaning that if one even say copy something from India and that Indian company make a fuss, the US will look into it. Those countries that havent signed are mostly countries where copyright would be least of the worries, like Iran, and other countries where if someone did a proxy origin name with those countries it would raise more serious flags than copyright. But even Proxies are not as secret as they used to be because the proxy server still have on their database the true origin. And a lot easier to obtain records than it used to be and what the proxy ads let on. Kind of side effect I chasing online criminals. And with IPs not wanting to be responsible for activites of the consumer usually turn over records or rid of the customer rather than get tangled in that sort of mess.

Who every release it into the wild, they have to be on their A game. Because if it spreads like intended then they could be pegged as beyond simple personal copyright to international big stakes copyright infringement person. And in the law it do states that the law applies regardless if money was made or not. This is all assuming if crap hits the fan or there is indeed something illegal going on. But if done properly then there should not be much worries.

Why would any copyrighted material be distributed?

I thought the idea behind SCORE was to create a server emulator? Creating something that can talk to the COH client is not illegal nor is it copyright infringement from my understanding. NCSoft might not like it... they might even have enough standing to push a C&D out to the developer of this hypothetical emulator before they finish it... but the emulator itself does not infringe upon copyright and without knowing who's doing what NCSoft has no place to send a C&D. So no. I don't believe NCSoft could do squat to anyone who uploaded an emulator so long as it didn't contain material from the actual game they produced. They could scare an ISP into taking down the file but they wouldn't be able to do anything legally to harm the individual(s) who uploaded such a file.

Basically once that emulator is out in the wild the genie is out of the bottle and there'll be nothing NCSoft can do to stop it. If they convince an ISP to take down a file, 10 more will pop up elsewhere. Considering the proliferation of ACTUAL copyright infringement and piracy on torrent sites like the Pirate Bay, why on earth would this one tiny emulator, which was created by someone other than NCSoft, and doesn't contain any of their proprietary content, be in any actual danger of disappearing from the internet?
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 04, 2013, 02:57:49 PM
Why would any copyrighted material be distributed?

I thought the idea behind SCORE was to create a server emulator? Creating something that can talk to the COH client is not illegal nor is it copyright infringement from my understanding. NCSoft might not like it... they might even have enough standing to push a C&D out to the developer of this hypothetical emulator before they finish it... but the emulator itself does not infringe upon copyright and without knowing who's doing what NCSoft has no place to send a C&D. So no. I don't believe NCSoft could do squat to anyone who uploaded an emulator so long as it didn't contain material from the actual game they produced. They could scare an ISP into taking down the file but they wouldn't be able to do anything legally to harm the individual(s) who uploaded such a file.

Basically once that emulator is out in the wild the genie is out of the bottle and there'll be nothing NCSoft can do to stop it. If they convince an ISP to take down a file, 10 more will pop up elsewhere. Considering the proliferation of ACTUAL copyright infringement and piracy on torrent sites like the Pirate Bay, why on earth would this one tiny emulator, which was created by someone other than NCSoft, and doesn't contain any of their proprietary content, be in any actual danger of disappearing from the internet?

That is why the last paragraph I said is important. " But if done properly then there should not be much worries."

But why would the likes of pirate bay is still up and why would they worry about emulator? Not sure but I assume the same reason why some copyright infringement sites get taken down and others don't. As I also said, just because someone gets away with it, doesn't mean it's legal and ok. Kind of the same reason why some emulators do not get bothered while others are served with C&D and or get shut down. Why some people can do 80 in a 60 and not get pulled ever but later in the day one same stretch of road manned by a different cop or in many cases the same cop, someone get pulled over for merely doing 65 in a 60. Usually the defense of "Well others are doing it" usually don't go well asa defense in court But again as I said, if there is nothing illegal going on or it's not done in an illegal manner then there is no worries.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on December 04, 2013, 03:09:00 PM
That is why the last paragraph I said is important. " But if done properly then there should not be much worries."

But why would the likes of pirate bay is still up and why would they worry about emulator? Not sure but I assume the same reason why some copyright infringement sites get taken down and others don't. As I also said, just because someone gets away with it, doesn't mean it's legal and ok. Kind of the same reason why some emulators do not get bothered while others are served with C&D and or get shut down. Why some people can do 80 in a 60 and not get pulled ever but later in the day one same stretch of road manned by a different cop or in many cases the same cop, someone get pulled over for merely doing 65 in a 60. Usually the defense of "Well others are doing it" usually don't go well asa defense in court But again as I said, if there is nothing illegal going on or it's not done in an illegal manner then there is no worries.

I'm not trying to say that not getting caught equates to it being ok. I'm just saying that creating an emulator is not in fact illegal nor infringing upon copyright. It's an original piece of software that is capable of communicating with another piece of software that IS copyright protected. But such emulation software is perfectly legal and NCSoft has no standing to have such an emulator taken down from any website. I only used the Pirate Bay example to highlight that if illegal downloads are getting away with doing so... why would a perfectly legal download have any great issue?

What NCSoft CAN do is serve people hosting private servers that include copyright protected materials they own with C&D's to shut them down. But considering how prolific I expect the SCORE project to be once it is out there, and consider how small in the grand scheme of things our community is, I doubt NCSoft will even bother with that unless by some miracle a server/servergroup grows in size to dwarf the original COH population at its best. And even then, if NC shuts down one private server 10 more will take its place. Then of course there will be the underground of private servers that aren't generally publicized and stay off the radar... or the people who simply host their own to play solo. In the end COH lives on no matter what they do.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: thunderforce on December 04, 2013, 03:24:33 PM
I'm not trying to say that not getting caught equates to it being ok. I'm just saying that creating an emulator is not in fact illegal nor infringing upon copyright. It's an original piece of software that is capable of communicating with another piece of software that IS copyright protected.

Unfortunately, if I can sneak a post in before the next wall of incoherence, in some jurisdictions that doesn't get you very far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd#Blizzard_takedown_demand_and_lawsuit .

On the face of it, bnetd was "just an emulator", but the DMCA is very wide-ranging.

Of course the Secret Project could be released and hosted in a sensible jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on December 04, 2013, 03:31:12 PM
Unfortunately, if I can sneak a post in before the next wall of incoherence, in some jurisdictions that doesn't get you very far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd#Blizzard_takedown_demand_and_lawsuit .

On the face of it, bnetd was "just an emulator", but the DMCA is very wide-ranging.

Of course the Secret Project could be released and hosted in a sensible jurisdiction.

It's also important to note with that case however, that although Blizzard won , the lawsuit did not stop the continued distribution of bnetd's open source code, nor of derivative projects such as PvPGN.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Arachnion on December 04, 2013, 03:32:09 PM
All I gotta say is.. why hasn't NC Soft gone after Titan Icon?

I'm pretty sure it goes against their TOS/EULA, and yet, here we are.

Plus, the last Beta client is available in its entirety, on a public website.

So... yeah..

??? 8)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Little David on December 04, 2013, 03:58:09 PM
My guess is, Icon isn't a big enough "threat" to NCSoft to warrant a takedown; it's a violation, but it doesn't actually bring the game back like a server emulator. Or, it may be due to a lack of publicity.

In Infinite Rasa's case, I'm pretty sure its development landed on a few MMORPG news sites. Not the big gaming journalism ones, but it was very visible leading up to the takedown.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: MWRuger on December 04, 2013, 07:15:23 PM
There are still ways to release things anonymously. You can't make it impossible to track but you can make it very difficult. Sometimes when a dodgy site is shuttered it takes political pressure from the government on a foreign power to make it happen. Since NCSoft or whoever owns the IP is unlikely to have much clout on countries who court anonymous internet activity.

Charging is a no-no, but the way Space and Beyond handles it is that they accept donations to cover server cost, but not one penny more. But in that case they are allowed by EA to proceed (I was astonished when I learned the EA was willing to work with it's defunct MMO communities. Credit where it is due. Still don't like Origin tho) so the same rational might not apply.

But all this is academic at this point.

I do have to say that IF i ran a private server, I would run it for my buds and I to play on and I would make it generic Out of the Box. I'm not a dev, I don't wanna be. The idea of balancing powersets and all that stuff gives me the heebie jeebies.

Also, even if I had a one, I would shutter it the moment that COH made a triumphant return. To me, CoT and Private Servers are all I might be able to get until COH returns (Unlikely, but: "a man's reach should exceed his grasp -- or what's a heaven for?")
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: blacksly on December 04, 2013, 07:39:32 PM
I do have to say that IF i ran a private server, I would run it for my buds and I to play on and I would make it generic Out of the Box. I'm not a dev, I don't wanna be. The idea of balancing powersets and all that stuff gives me the heebie jeebies.

I, on the other hand, would love to run on code on a private-run server. The ability to add new stuff that makes players go "wow, that is COOL!" is the best part of being a dev.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: MWRuger on December 04, 2013, 08:00:08 PM
Blacksky, if it ever happens I am happy to ride on the hard work of others. So if someone out there develops, tests, balances and then tests again, I would consider adding it as long it felt right to the spirit of the game.

Actually, I would love to do dev work, but I'm lying if I say I could or would actually have time to do it. So I leave it to you with time and inclination.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Little David on December 04, 2013, 08:41:50 PM
Generally it would be nice to keep the community together and not have it fragment into a ton of different tiny Cities. Even when back when the game was alive I sometimes wished I'd played on Virtue rather than Guardian, especially redside, because of how desolate it could get.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: MWRuger on December 04, 2013, 08:54:49 PM
We'll just have to wait and see what's available, how underground it will be, etc. I just want the city the way it was mainly (ish 24 would be nice). If I can get that on server that everyone is logging in at, I would be cool with that. But if it's just bunch of hacked and jimmied content then I would pass. There were some things I didn't like about COH, but DAMN few of them.


But this is all academic since we can't really discuss a top secret project (which we don't have any knowledge of such a thing anyway) in a public forum.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on December 04, 2013, 09:42:50 PM
I can only imagine it would be like UOX or Sphere if such a project did exist.  There would probably be large servers that people could play it.  But anyone with an internet connection would be able to host one.  Besides I would like to be able to log into a private server that is offline at my house so I could mess around with character builds and stuff.  .setaccountprivs4 style for anyone who hosted/worked on the UO Emulators
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on December 04, 2013, 10:24:31 PM
Yea I too would like an "offline" mode to play when I am without an internet connection. That's one of the things I am really looking forward to when the SCORE thing finally comes to light.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 04, 2013, 11:38:33 PM
I'm not trying to say that not getting caught equates to it being ok. I'm just saying that creating an emulator is not in fact illegal nor infringing upon copyright. It's an original piece of software that is capable of communicating with another piece of software that IS copyright protected. But such emulation software is perfectly legal and NCSoft has no standing to have such an emulator taken down from any website. I only used the Pirate Bay example to highlight that if illegal downloads are getting away with doing so... why would a perfectly legal download have any great issue?

What NCSoft CAN do is serve people hosting private servers that include copyright protected materials they own with C&D's to shut them down. But considering how prolific I expect the SCORE project to be once it is out there, and consider how small in the grand scheme of things our community is, I doubt NCSoft will even bother with that unless by some miracle a server/servergroup grows in size to dwarf the original COH population at its best. And even then, if NC shuts down one private server 10 more will take its place. Then of course there will be the underground of private servers that aren't generally publicized and stay off the radar... or the people who simply host their own to play solo. In the end COH lives on no matter what they do.

ya missing the part where I'm saying if it's legal it wont have any issues. I'm talking about illegal stuff. If it's legal, for the fifth time, I said, they will have no problems.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 05, 2013, 12:00:28 AM
All I gotta say is.. why hasn't NC Soft gone after Titan Icon?

I'm pretty sure it goes against their TOS/EULA, and yet, here we are.

Plus, the last Beta client is available in its entirety, on a public website.

So... yeah..

??? 8)

Probably for the same reason why some many WMG videos are muted and blocked while some still live on to this day.

Their action will never stop people from putting up videos, but as long as they take a  video down here and there people cant then say, "well they never take the video downs so it must be ok". As long as they take a video down here and there, it is known they don't like their materials going on you tube without their permission, and it's free to watch you tube videos.

But then again don't forget the SOPA thing that is being proposed. While most consumers don't see what the big deal about copyright or using other people's stuff is and think it's harmless and probably shouldn't even a be a crime, it's major concern in business and even in congress. But again if it's not illegal then there is nothing to worry about at all.

Or why can one person kill someone say they did it and get 5 years while the other get electric chair or why one person c an steal fro mthe store gets probation first offense while someone else steal the same thing I nthe same manner on the same day but get a few months in jai.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 05, 2013, 02:28:23 AM
Yea I too would like an "offline" mode to play when I am without an internet connection. That's one of the things I am really looking forward to when the SCORE thing finally comes to light.

From your lips to any beneficent deity's ears -- a thousand times THIS!
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 05, 2013, 02:49:36 AM
All I gotta say is.. why hasn't NC Soft gone after Titan Icon?

I'm pretty sure it goes against their TOS/EULA, and yet, here we are.

Plus, the last Beta client is available in its entirety, on a public website.

So... yeah..

??? 8)

If you freely distribute a software client in a form and method that doesn't actually require anyone using it to agree to anything (which I understand is, in fact, the case with the COH 24beta client), it would seem remarkably difficult to put forward a case that someone is violating an agreement that they never agreed to.  Which doesn't prevent someone from undertaking legal action, of course -- you can sue the Bishop of Boston for Bastardy as my Father used to say -- but it does make such a legal action somewhat perilous.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 05, 2013, 02:56:17 AM
If you freely distribute a software client in a form and method that doesn't actually require anyone using it to agree to anything (which I understand is, in fact, the case with the COH 24beta client), it would seem remarkably difficult to put forward a case that someone is violating an agreement that they never agreed to.  Which doesn't prevent someone from undertaking legal action, of course -- you can sue the Bishop of Boston for Bastardy as my Father used to say -- but it does make such a legal action somewhat perilous.

I would think this would make game CONTENT a hazard -- the Positron task force mission dialogs are copyright NC Soft and I don't believe they are included in the client (I'm not sure of this) but the power animations, emotes, maps, AE game development front end, and so forth, including a number of characters ARE included in the client, and software that causes the client to present them and create behavior using them cannot reasonably be cast as a violation of NC Soft's rights.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 05, 2013, 03:19:18 AM
I would think this would make game CONTENT a hazard -- the Positron task force mission dialogs are copyright NC Soft and I don't believe they are included in the client (I'm not sure of this) but the power animations, emotes, maps, AE game development front end, and so forth, including a number of characters ARE included in the client, and software that causes the client to present them and create behavior using them cannot reasonably be cast as a violation of NC Soft's rights.
Indeed.

Same for the artwork, character names, bios, map names to the maps aka Atlas City in NCSOFT COX Atlas City form, and etc.

That is the tricky part. Some stuff that is behind the client, probably will have to be changed or emulated anyways and thus is not by definition what NCSOFT used.

But people forget that the characters and their stuff is also copyrighted. Hence why some games like Cryptic and whoever had to purchase the right to Champions IP in order to make the game instead of making the game and flicking off the laws. Even though the online game probably would in no way shape or fashion interefere wit hthe operation of the PnP version and stuff.


But since they said, many times, the SCORE project will not break any laws I guess that means there wont be Positron per se, but maybe "Atom" or something.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: HEATSTROKE on December 05, 2013, 04:54:10 AM
I didnt mean to start such a brouhaha
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 05, 2013, 04:55:49 AM
Indeed.

Same for the artwork, character names, bios, map names to the maps aka Atlas City in NCSOFT COX Atlas City form, and etc.

That is the tricky part. Some stuff that is behind the client, probably will have to be changed or emulated anyways and thus is not by definition what NCSOFT used.

But people forget that the characters and their stuff is also copyrighted. Hence why some games like Cryptic and whoever had to purchase the right to Champions IP in order to make the game instead of making the game and flicking off the laws. Even though the online game probably would in no way shape or fashion interefere wit hthe operation of the PnP version and stuff.


But since they said, many times, the SCORE project will not break any laws I guess that means there wont be Positron per se, but maybe "Atom" or something.

Ah, but Positron's, Statesman's, etc artwork are IN the client.  Software that causes the client to display the client content that is labeled "Positron" or "Galaxy City" is not actually DISPLAYING those images -- it's the CLIENT that is displaying those images. Yes, if the Server is displaying a map name, then it had better not be displaying "Atlas Park" that is literally coded in the server--  it had better be displaying >Client Map Name Atlas Park< which the client happens to have as "Atlas Park" (and a modified client could have labeled as "City Center" or "Big Farting Statue Park" depending on the taste of the client's modifier)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Aggelakis on December 05, 2013, 05:09:39 AM
Ah, but Positron's, Statesman's, etc artwork are IN the client.  Software that causes the client to display the client content that is labeled "Positron" or "Galaxy City" is not actually DISPLAYING those images -- it's the CLIENT that is displaying those images. Yes, if the Server is displaying a map name, then it had better not be displaying "Atlas Park" that is literally coded in the server--  it had better be displaying >Client Map Name Atlas Park< which the client happens to have as "Atlas Park" (and a modified client could have labeled as "City Center" or "Big Farting Statue Park" depending on the taste of the client's modifier)
Atlas Park is "maps/City_Zones/City_01_01/City_01_01.txt" in the client. Other data and textures and such, which can be changed, bring in the Atlas Park details. :)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 05, 2013, 05:16:44 AM
Ah, but Positron's, Statesman's, etc artwork are IN the client.  Software that causes the client to display the client content that is labeled "Positron" or "Galaxy City" is not actually DISPLAYING those images -- it's the CLIENT that is displaying those images. Yes, if the Server is displaying a map name, then it had better not be displaying "Atlas Park" that is literally coded in the server--  it had better be displaying >Client Map Name Atlas Park< which the client happens to have as "Atlas Park" (and a modified client could have labeled as "City Center" or "Big Farting Statue Park" depending on the taste of the client's modifier)

well there you have it then.

Just change some stuff around and Atlas park is not Atlas park, even though "it is" but it isn't. It's say City Center and it have a red sky with different trees and stuff and  "Liberty is not  Liberty but is someone else with different look, although everyone know it is in fact "Liberty" but sincei t isn't Liberty it cannot be proven that it is in fact Liberty in the court of law.

Sounds like a lot of stuff can be changed including contact and such images and or names.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 05, 2013, 06:17:13 AM
well there you have it then.

Just change some stuff around and Atlas park is not Atlas park, even though "it is" but it isn't. It's say City Center and it have a red sky with different trees and stuff and  "Liberty is not  Liberty but is someone else with different look, although everyone know it is in fact "Liberty" but sincei t isn't Liberty it cannot be proven that it is in fact Liberty in the court of law.

Sounds like a lot of stuff can be changed including contact and such images and or names.

No need for red skies or different looks -- you just have to be able to prove that City Center's sky and trees come from the client and all your server did was cue up the existing client images -- Liberty doesn't SAY she's liberty (unless that's built into the client) -- instead she's Freedom who looks exactly as she is created in the client (just as ICON has her built in the map) -- same reason ICON isn't violating anything ... it only cues up functions, images, maps built into the client software.

Then just use AE resources to build replacements for  the dialog, NPC's, missions, etc.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Tahquitz on December 05, 2013, 06:18:31 AM
Retracted.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Illusionss on December 05, 2013, 04:51:16 PM
My guess is, Icon isn't a big enough "threat" to NCSoft to warrant a takedown; it's a violation, but it doesn't actually bring the game back like a server emulator. Or, it may be due to a lack of publicity.

But I still wanna know: how would NCSoft carry out a takedown? A zillion people have Icon on their machines. How will they get us to remove it? Send stormtroopers to kick down our doors? I wanna see that one.....

My CoX files on my personal machine were paid for with real-world cash, on my machine that was also paid for with my own real-world cash, and all these things are my legal property. If NCSoft does not like that then I feel for them! BUT WHAT IS MINE, IS MINE. AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE SO!

I mean, seriously. I want to know what they are gonna do. Is Korea going to invade the US and seize our computers? Balderdash! CoX is mine, and Icon is also.... mine in the sense that it is on MY computer. I suggest NC start dealing with the fact that they do not run the world!
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 05, 2013, 06:04:28 PM
But I still wanna know: how would NCSoft carry out a takedown? A zillion people have Icon on their machines. How will they get us to remove it? Send stormtroopers to kick down our doors? I wanna see that one.....

My CoX files on my personal machine were paid for with real-world cash, on my machine that was also paid for with my own real-world cash, and all these things are my legal property. If NCSoft does not like that then I feel for them! BUT WHAT IS MINE, IS MINE. AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE SO!

I mean, seriously. I want to know what they are gonna do. Is Korea going to invade the US and seize our computers? Balderdash! CoX is mine, and Icon is also.... mine in the sense that it is on MY computer. I suggest NC start dealing with the fact that they do not run the world!
well I suppose it's like anything that get a C&D. They probably just shut down the distributor. Just like when Napster got shut down, the files downloaded from there that was already on people's computers, basically still worked  and some of those files to this day are being used to make those youtube videos and stuff.
There was no mass invasion of each computer. Just Napster, the distributor. Unless of course the access to said program is depended on the distributor side to be up and running. But if it's a stand alone of the person computer then those that get it in before they shut it down like music downloading sights, or hell even youtube videoes before they remove the video, still can have it but those that come after is SOL unless they get it from someone that already have it.

But while NCSOFT have to deal with the fact that they don't run the world people also have to deal with the fact that they are not entitled to distribute other people's property without permission even if they feel they are doing it for the greater good. Like just because someone rents a house for years, when it come time for the owner to sell or decide they they don't want to do the renting thing anymore and doesn't renew contract, doesn't mean the renter all of a sudden is entitled to ownership of that house even if they did repaint it.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: blacksly on December 05, 2013, 06:05:52 PM
There never was, nor will there ever be, any reasonable threat that NCSoft would or could go after anyone using copies of their client or any portion of it (Icon) even after they shuttered the servers.

Nor are they ever likely to have a real recourse in case a server emulator is ever put out for download.

The real threat is that if there is solid evidence to link a server emulator to a specific source, AND they can find something in the emulator that infringes upon their copyright and/or IP, they could take the source to court. Reverse engineering is legal (in most countries) but you are supposed to engineer a software engine that behaves identically to the original, without directly copying any part of the code. If someone takes shortcuts, they may be in danger with regards to copying. If someone reverse-engineers the server software cleanly, but keeps mention of any CoH IP in the software, such as location or hero or mission names, they would be liable for IP infringement.

Both of those issues can be avoided with care. If they are avoided, you would still want to keep the trail obscured, given that NCSoft may always decide to just throw some money away in nuisance lawsuits as punishment if they could determine the source, but if they have nothing more that they are likely to achieve than nuisance lawsuits, they are unlikely to seriously pursue any reaction. Basically, don't give them legal ammo to get serious results, and they may not pursue the effort to just be a nuisance to the emulator developers or to anyone running a server.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 05, 2013, 06:09:24 PM
There never was, nor will there ever be, any reasonable threat that NCSoft would or could go after anyone using copies of their client or any portion of it (Icon) even after they shuttered the servers.

Nor are they ever likely to have a real recourse in case a server emulator is ever put out for download.

The real threat is that if there is solid evidence to link a server emulator to a specific source, AND they can find something in the emulator that infringes upon their copyright and/or IP, they could take the source to court. Reverse engineering is legal (in most countries) but you are supposed to engineer a software engine that behaves identically to the original, without directly copying any part of the code. If someone takes shortcuts, they may be in danger with regards to copying. If someone reverse-engineers the server software cleanly, but keeps mention of any CoH IP in the software, such as location or hero or mission names, they would be liable for IP infringement.

Both of those issues can be avoided with care. If they are avoided, you would still want to keep the trail obscured, given that NCSoft may always decide to just throw some money away in nuisance lawsuits as punishment if they could determine the source, but if they have nothing more that they are likely to achieve than nuisance lawsuits, they are unlikely to seriously pursue any reaction. Basically, don't give them legal ammo to get serious results, and they may not pursue the effort to just be a nuisance to the emulator developers or to anyone running a server.

yup. Unless they manage to pass the SOPA.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Codewalker on December 05, 2013, 06:40:30 PM
All I gotta say is.. why hasn't NC Soft gone after Titan Icon?

Icon is a 100% original work that does not infringe NCSoft's copyright in any way. The source code is available to validate this claim. It was developed after the COH servers were shut down, therefore any agreements governing access to those servers (without which the client does not function) can not apply.

Its function is to interface with and enhance software that people have legally purchased. This is in full accordance with U.S. Copyright Law. The COH client has no content protection mechanisms that would apply, and even if it did, the DMCA has provisions allowing such protections to be bypassed if they are rendered defunct due to being discontinued by the original provider.

If NCSoft were dumb enough to to send the Titan Network or anyone else a C&D notice for it, it would be grounds for a harassment lawsuit, and possibly run afoul of anti-SLAPP laws. Given the support that the various plan Z projects have received, I can only imagine what kind of legal fund we would have if it was announced we had legitimate grounds to sue them on. Not to mention the precedent it could set.

Quote
Plus, the last Beta client is available in its entirety, on a public website.

Dunno on that one. Probably their legal department isn't even aware of it, or doesn't see it as a big enough problem to spend resources going after. There's also the matter of them having allowed anyone to freely download it in the first place, which muddies the waters. Maybe they know we're itching for a fight and don't want to risk an unfavorable result.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 05, 2013, 06:52:36 PM

Dunno on that one. Probably their legal department isn't even aware of it, or doesn't see it as a big enough problem to spend resources going after. There's also the matter of them having allowed anyone to freely download it in the first place, which muddies the waters. Maybe they know we're itching for a fight and don't want to risk an unfavorable result.

Yeah if it's on some small website, ok small as in not on one of the major big websites Facebook, you tube, google, yahoo, twitter, Disney, CNN, and etc, aka a website with a few thousand is not considered in that major website category, they probably just simply don't realize it exist.


well itching for a fight and actually fighting are two different things. Sometimes itching for a fight is not a good thing because then it breeds cockiness, and thus mistakes are made and things are overlooked, which leads to losing when in fact it should have been an easy win with proper preparation instead of walking into it "I'm right so there is no way NCSOFT can win. The entire court system is on my side" nonsense. That is how many times people lose cases that make others go How the flick did they lose that one? And of course the lawyers laughing all the way to the bank on both sides.

People seem to forget there is also protection for the IP holder and small print that is in their favor too. It's all about how one goes about doing it. Go into it like "I bought the game so the entire IP is mine to use as I want and distribute" yeah that is trouble waiting to happen. Or thinking immunity simply because others have not been taken down. That leads to sloppiness and carelessness. Stay sharp as if they are watching. Prep for the worse, so even if they send C&D, ya know what to do. If they do sue, already be ready, prepped, good to go and not pissing off a judge with some cocky sense of entitlement to other's property attitude. Humbleness, but firm, and lastly know the law on both ends because what this is going on, may not be viewed in favorable terms when someone does it to one of the three projects once they get going with emulators and private servers. And it would be odd to go from, yeah I bought it and entitles to the IP to "Hey they cant do that to the Project Z project. That is not their work to makea private server and emulator and distribute."
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Illusionss on December 06, 2013, 03:35:08 AM
I still want to know how that's going to work if I, or anyone, got a C&D from Korea. [Which isn't happening, but for the sake of argument.]

"We hereby demand that you remove our property from your computer, and hey while you are doing that take off that ICON thing too, we didn't make that or have a thing to do with it but we're still demanding anyways! OBEY AT ONCE or face the full might of South Korean law!"

Whut. We are not living in Korea. They have no jurisdiction here. Is the Justice Dept. going to extradite us to Korea....? Of course not and that is just how ridiculous this whole thing sounds. Korea does not run the world. They have no clout here.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Drauger9 on December 06, 2013, 04:28:06 AM
[quoteI still want to know how that's going to work if I, or anyone, got a C&D from Korea. [Which isn't happening, but for the sake of argument.]

"We hereby demand that you remove our property from your computer, and hey while you are doing that take off that ICON thing too, we didn't make that or have a thing to do with it but we're still demanding anyways! OBEY AT ONCE or face the full might of South Korean law!"

Whut. We are not living in Korea. They have no jurisdiction here. Is the Justice Dept. going to extradite us to Korea....? Of course not and that is just how ridiculous this whole thing sounds. Korea does not run the world. They have no clout here. ][/quote]

I was always under the assumption that there was a NCSoft  US as well as a Korean NCSoft?

If so, then yeah, if someone in the US broke a copyright law. I'd find it hard to believe they'd suppena (sp) you to a Korean court. I'd also assume it'd be handled similarly like a case of Idenity Theft. Where the plantif would have to go to the actual state (in the case of it happening in the US) where the theft actually accured. Like say I stole your Idenity. You'd have to come to the state in which I live (TN). The persue any legal action. Least that was the case with my cousin when her identity was stolen.

Take Care. :)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 06, 2013, 05:24:51 AM
well the thing is that NCSOFT do have COX IP and trademark registered in the US, and thus violation of those copyrights and trademarks do fall under the US law.

They may have a set for the Korean area too, but that wouldn't apply here, but in short, they do have that stuff registered in the US with the US copyright office.

So more than likely if crap hit the fan and they do make a move, it would be played out in US court uder US copyright laws.

And NCSOFT do have offices in the US.



But also don't forget about the WIPO Copyright Treaty (which have 186 nations as members) and the Berne Convention which the US, and most of the world ratified and signed and agreed to except a few African nations in the south east portion and many countries in the Middle East.  Originally the US refused to sign and become a party to the Berne convention in 1988 and the DMCA also covers violations to those treaties. Thus violating the copyright of a company in Korea still could be upheld and the person could be held liable under US law.

Now how it works in say Germany, may be a bit different but since the WIPO Copyright Treaty is basically an international law, it probably applies there too and vice versa if someone in the US took copyrighted materials of German origin and the German company got wind of it and put in a complaint.

From the copyright website addresses in the FAQW section

"The United States has copyright relations with most countries throughout the world, and as a result of these agreements, we honor each other's citizens' copyrights"


 And Check out http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf and as you can see, that list covers a lot of countries, including South Korea.


And Aftermath records once got sued for using a song without permission by a Indian (India citizen) composer for usuing a sample in the Truth Hurts song Addictive. The case took place in a US district court in LA. Then Saregama India Ltd a company based out of India sued in a Houston court over music that was used without their permission. And in both of those cases the Indian person and company didn't have any copyright  filings in the US for their work. NCSOFT do. So yeah just because the company is not in the US, doesn't mean the stuff is free game and cant be pursued in US courts.



But there is a chance NCSOFT may not bother, but they may bother, but still they may not. I think it's best to assume they will and be cautious just in case instead of going free range assuming we are untouchable. Because usually those that think they are untouchable unsinkable infallible, usually end up touched, sunk, fallen. And it's not because they were stupid or wrong but simply because in their haste they overlook something important and made a mistake that they could have seen and avoided if they slowed down and did a proper risk assessment. AKA they usually cause their own downfall.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Pinnacle Blue on December 06, 2013, 06:10:21 AM
well the thing is that NCSOFT do have COX IP and trademark registered in the US, and thus violation of those copyrights and trademarks do fall under the US law.

They may have a set for the Korean area too, but that wouldn't apply here, but in short, they do have that stuff registered in the US with the US copyright office.

So more than likely if crap hit the fan and they do make a move, it would be played out in US court uder US copyright laws.

And NCSOFT do have offices in the US.



But also don't forget about the WIPO Copyright Treaty (which have 186 nations as members) and the Berne Convention which the US, and most of the world ratified and signed and agreed to except a few African nations in the south east portion and many countries in the Middle East.  Originally the US refused to sign and become a party to the Berne convention in 1988 and the DMCA also covers violations to those treaties. Thus violating the copyright of a company in Korea still could be upheld and the person could be held liable under US law.

Now how it works in say Germany, may be a bit different but since the WIPO Copyright Treaty is basically an international law, it probably applies there too and vice versa if someone in the US took copyrighted materials of German origin and the German company got wind of it and put in a complaint.

From the copyright website addresses in the FAQW section

"The United States has copyright relations with most countries throughout the world, and as a result of these agreements, we honor each other's citizens' copyrights"


 And Check out http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38a.pdf and as you can see, that list covers a lot of countries, including South Korea.

We won't know what happens until it plays out.  It all depends on whether or not a mere C&D letter will be sufficient to make any private server owners knuckle under or say, "No, let's take this to court."  C&D letters are often used as a scare tactic; I doubt NCSoft really wants this to go to trial and I suspect the discovery process would uncover quite a number of things they don't want made public.

In any case, the whole point of copyright law is to make sure that only the copyright holder can earn money for their creations.  If someone runs server code but doesn't charge money for it, NCSoft is going to have a hell of a time proving financial harm to themselves.  They shut the game down, have no plans to reopen it, have rebuffed all attempts to buy it, and, most importantly, have received no revenue from it for over a year.  That harm is entirely self-inflicted.  If I'm not mistaken, the DMCA has provisions in it that allow for abandonware-- which is what CoH is.

Now, if the game were extant, they'd have a leg to stand on, no question.  But it's not.  So we'll just have to see what happens.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: saipaman on December 06, 2013, 06:50:02 AM
I doubt NCSoft wants to add more fuel to the publicity machine.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Drauger9 on December 06, 2013, 07:15:29 AM
I doubt they would to, unless someone was profiting from running a private server. Even then, I think they'd over look it unless it was making a decent to huge profit.

City of Heroes is dead to them :( and unless someone came around rubbing a 1 up in their face. They'll over look a lot of thing in regards to anything City of Heroes.

I think the only reason they wont sale the IP is out of a since of pride. Their scared someone might profit off of it and make them look foolish.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 06, 2013, 08:08:30 AM
We won't know what happens until it plays out.  It all depends on whether or not a mere C&D letter will be sufficient to make any private server owners knuckle under or say, "No, let's take this to court."  C&D letters are often used as a scare tactic; I doubt NCSoft really wants this to go to trial and I suspect the discovery process would uncover quite a number of things they don't want made public.

In any case, the whole point of copyright law is to make sure that only the copyright holder can earn money for their creations.  If someone runs server code but doesn't charge money for it, NCSoft is going to have a hell of a time proving financial harm to themselves.  They shut the game down, have no plans to reopen it, have rebuffed all attempts to buy it, and, most importantly, have received no revenue from it for over a year.  That harm is entirely self-inflicted.  If I'm not mistaken, the DMCA has provisions in it that allow for abandonware-- which is what CoH is.

Now, if the game were extant, they'd have a leg to stand on, no question.  But it's not.  So we'll just have to see what happens.

Well in reality they never said whether or not they have future if any plans for it just yet. It haven't been that long since the shut down in the business world.

abandonware usually involve old copyright materials that have been long "extinct" and or the copyright holder have not enforced it's copyright rights in a long period of time. Whether or not NCSOFT will enforce it's copyright rights have yet to be tested yet and thus COX is not really abandonware on that front.  And officially currently, US copyright law does not recognize the term or concept of "abandonware".

And the DMCA only allows it for archived and preserved if the media that is needed is obsolete. Such as in DOS game cases. But in that case, the copyright holder may still hold the rights to some of those games and depending on which one, it may still not be considered abandonware and thus someone just simply cant pick it up and do as they please with it just yet.
  COX not yet. It would be a hard case to prove exemption for a game that is not really yet obsolete yet. While commonly the copyright person go for financial damages, but many times it's not the case. One can be found to be copyright infringing and not make a single dime. Of course that also mean the copyright holder wont be rewarded for financial damages.

Of course longer it stays defunct easier it will be. But it's too early to call it abandonware or assume there isn't a plan simply because they didn't immediately let us know of said plan.


But it is a very great chance though as Drauger said, they wont even bother as long as people don't rub t in their faces as a one 1, which then either force them to basically either declare their rights to it or make it harder in the future to dispel the case of abandonware, assuming they have no single plan for it in the first place as they never said they didn't have plans for the IP yet. Even as the TeamHAil mary said, it takes years for the deals to go through hand for all we know they may be in negotiations right now as we speak with Disney or Google. And if something pops up and the deal falls through, they could easily claim the private server emulator or what ever titled is assigned to it, copyright infringement was partial cause of the multimillion dollar deal going through and that doesn't even require the private server owner runner operator to have made a single cent. 

And I doubt their actions will hinge on our view of them anymore or the "publicity machine". Most here seem to already hate them so why would they be worried at this point on pissing people off that is already pissed and will be pissed at them regardless of what they do and or expect them to not protect their property from the people that hate them and expressed this hate in the first place. This is like a car thief saying that the owner that they hate wont or shouldn't reclaim their car from him because then he will like them less if they report the car stolen.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ironwolf on December 06, 2013, 04:32:06 PM
City of Heroes IS Abandonware:

http://abandonwarering.com/?Page=FAQ

It is actually a question now of archiving a game that due to its number of Guiness Book of World Record entries, numerous patents, first Superhero MMO and many other things that made it ground breaking - a VERY strong case could be made that this game MUST be preserved for future generations.

If anyone is a member of staff of a school or College - I would actually suggest approaching NCSoft with this exact case. This game could be used as a learning tool and also reference some other professors who actually used this game to TEACH. You have many personal stories my own included as to how the simple act of being able to defend yourself or be heroic in a game affects how you treat obstacles in life.

I honestly believe that freely releasing the game as abandonware has very strong potential.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: AlienOne on December 06, 2013, 04:52:06 PM
City of Heroes IS Abandonware:

http://abandonwarering.com/?Page=FAQ

It is actually a question now of archiving a game that due to its number of Guiness Book of World Record entries, numerous patents, first Superhero MMO and many other things that made it ground breaking - a VERY strong case could be made that this game MUST be preserved for future generations.

If anyone is a member of staff of a school or College - I would actually suggest approaching NCSoft with this exact case. This game could be used as a learning tool and also reference some other professors who actually used this game to TEACH. You have many personal stories my own included as to how the simple act of being able to defend yourself or be heroic in a game affects how you treat obstacles in life.

I honestly believe that freely releasing the game as abandonware has very strong potential.

This is the best idea I've heard about the future of this game since the game shut down...

Having gone through about half of my Master's degree in Game Design now at this point, I can see HUGE potential for a case in this area, if we could get any of the colleges (like the one I go to) to latch on to it and provide some kind of backing or merit to the case that it is something that should be preserved (much in the same way the "historical society" of any given town preserves certain older buildings in the town).
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 06, 2013, 05:39:47 PM
City of Heroes IS Abandonware:
(...)
I honestly believe that freely releasing the game as abandonware has very strong potential.
Not sold and not supported, certainly.
HOWEVER, be aware that Abandonware is NOT a legal term and has NO impact on applicability of copyright law. What you seem to be thinking about WRT to releasing the game is either open source or public domain. Open Source... yeah, good luck with that. But there's zero chance of public domain, since NCSoft doesn't strike me as a party to voluntarily relinquish all potential future monetary gain even from a property they themselves killed deader than a doornail.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ironwolf on December 06, 2013, 06:00:35 PM
If you spent 10 years working on CoH as a designer you helped create a work of art with music, writing and graphics. You did this for pay and yet not one bit of it exists today.

I understand what a copyright protects but who protects the work?

This is a legitimate question.It is not in service and not in production for the future - this creates the exact question - how are you protecting the works if they are not being used?

NCSoft bought the rights to USE the IP. I would say it is a strong case that they then did the exact opposite and went out of their way to STOP the USE of the IP. Abandonware folks specifically say - if you restart selling the IP - we stop using it as Abandonware. A court would have a very hard time to prosecute you for keeping the desire of an IP going - when the original owner stopped caring if it was in use.


Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Little David on December 06, 2013, 06:31:01 PM
Unless they manage to pass the SOPA.

SOPA's dead in the water, as is PIPA. The thing we have to worry about now is the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement, which is even worse than either of them. Here's a brief rundown of how nasty it gets. (http://tppinfo.org/resources/whats-in-the-tpp/)
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 06, 2013, 08:03:30 PM

NCSoft bought the rights to USE the IP. I would say it is a strong case that they then did the exact opposite and went out of their way to STOP the USE of the IP. Abandonware folks specifically say - if you restart selling the IP - we stop using it as Abandonware. A court would have a very hard time to prosecute you for keeping the desire of an IP going - when the original owner stopped caring if it was in use.

There is a defining moral case that the ONLY purpose to copyright and patent law is to make maximally available to the community creations and additions to human culture.  The reward to creators of valuable intellectual property is the METHOD of ensuring that creations are not kept private or secret and encouraging additional increases in human culture and ability.

This is why you can pass on ownership of your property (say your land or your automobile) to your future inheritors for a thousand years, but your "intellectual property" has a finite lifetime (Disney hasn't successfully done away with that distinction yet).  It is not PROPERTY it is TREATED AS PROPERTY for a specific purpose -- that purpose being to make it maximally available. 

Those who use copyright or patent to PROHIBIT access to or use of works of intellectual property are inherently abusing the principle under which they have any ownership rights to that "property" at all. 

This form of abuse may be unavoidable as a practical matter in terms of the implementation of the rules of property law to intellectual property (how do you put a defined cost on "Casablanca" if you cannot control access) but it should never be forgotten that when a company uses copyright to EXCLUDE access of the community to IP they are morally abrogating the basis of their ownership -- they are exploiting the limits of the practical implementation of the law to accomplish the exact opposite of the law's purpose.

NCSoft is not making access to COX available for an $80,000 annual subscription (one could argue that that would also be a violation of right that should be prohibited by law, but for different reasons) NCSoft is EXCLUDING access to the IP (of all it's shut down games that it won't release). 

This use of their "ownership" is simply wrong and the laws should not allow it.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ironwolf on December 06, 2013, 09:23:20 PM
That is my exact arguement.

Copyrights are there for protection of someone using the property to make money or some other definite reward. I would think that City of Heroes would absolutely be a perfect subject for Abandonware. In fact head over to Good Old Games and see the work done to restore games in similar circumstances.

They are updated to modern computers and resold. I have a number myself.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Pinnacle Blue on December 06, 2013, 10:24:30 PM
That is my exact arguement.

Copyrights are there for protection of someone using the property to make money or some other definite reward. I would think that City of Heroes would absolutely be a perfect subject for Abandonware. In fact head over to Good Old Games and see the work done to restore games in similar circumstances.

They are updated to modern computers and resold. I have a number myself.

And get this: they are sold with no DRM.  So if your hard drive dies, or you simply upgrade to a better computer, or just want to play something while visiting your crazy uncle who lives in the North Pole, you can download them as many times as you want.

Said it before, saying it again: GOG.com got a lot of money from me that would've otherwise gone to NCSoft, who will see another dime from me some time after hell freezes over.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 07, 2013, 12:24:39 AM

It is actually a question now of archiving a game that due to its number of Guiness Book of World Record entries, numerous patents, first Superhero MMO and many other things that made it ground breaking - a VERY strong case could be made that this game MUST be preserved for future generations.

If anyone is a member of staff of a school or College - I would actually suggest approaching NCSoft with this exact case. This game could be used as a learning tool and also reference some other professors who actually used this game to TEACH. You have many personal stories my own included as to how the simple act of being able to defend yourself or be heroic in a game affects how you treat obstacles in life.

I honestly believe that freely releasing the game as abandonware has very strong potential.

Say, that is a very good idea, but there is a very good difference between using it to teach and a learning tool. And merely using it because the players wasn't ready to quit playing yet.

If one could get a college student, a college the student belongs to to go along, it might just work. But of course, cant go in there with that approach as a flimsy disguise for the true purpose of simply trying to fulfill the sense of entitlement to a game players feel they should have or the case would crumble. There are many ups and downs with using it as teaching and learning tool and usually it don't result in the desired everyone get in and enjoy.

I do wonder about the individual rights of the owners but I assume they went through ha process that is similar to the volunteer vow of CoT where they made public agreement to relinquish all claims to the work and very much so in the employee case since they were paid for their work and compensated.  Like in most companies, and ex employees have been successfully sued, when they try to run off with a project they made although made due to payment they received as an employee using company assets and tools to create. I.E. a person can create a rocket but if they do it as a soldier who job is to create rockets they cant go back and try and claim it for themselves when their employment is terminated.  That rocket and it's design becomes government property. Anymore than I suppose a volunteer for the project can get angry and ban the project from using their work or system they created if they agreed to give up their claim to said property in return for working or in most cases in companies, as a term of their employment. 
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 07, 2013, 01:38:43 AM
Like in most companies, and ex employees have been successfully sued, when they try to run off with a project they made although made due to payment they received as an employee using company assets and tools to create. I.E. a person can create a rocket but if they do it as a soldier who job is to create rockets they cant go back and try and claim it for themselves when their employment is terminated.  That rocket and it's design becomes government property.

But with the exception of the government, which is protected due to it's sovereign state, the owner of the rocket cannot PREVENT someone else from using that rocket design just because they own it and don't want someone else to use it.  The rocket design is given to them as their "property" for a limited period of time (a patent), so that they can charge for it's use in order to encourage other companies to design more rockets.  But that also REQUIRES them to completely reveal the rocket design publicly and not to use prohibitive restrictions on the use of the rocket design.  Their "ownership" is dependent upon the public good that is produced by others having use of the design openly.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 07, 2013, 02:54:42 AM
I understand what a copyright protects but who protects the work?
This is a legitimate question.It is not in service and not in production for the future - this creates the exact question - how are you protecting the works if they are not being used?
NCSoft bought the rights to USE the IP. I would say it is a strong case that they then did the exact opposite and went out of their way to STOP the USE of the IP.
1. Theoretically its' owner, practically they are under no obligation to do so. MANY products were lost to bit rot over the years.
2. Same as normally, by siccing your legal department on anyone who uses them without permission. If any part of the work contains trademarks you own, this is something you can't NOT do - failure to react to infringements can result in losing rights to the trademark.
3. Not quite. They have the rights to control the use of it. That includes the right to choose to it on it until cows come home.

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly support the idea - but you're crossing a certain barrier and you should be aware of it. Abandonware is a nicely sounding term an a reasonable concept overall, but in the eyes of law it's still no different than regular software piracy. The current copyright laws in general are assuming protection to last WAY beyond the author's lifespan, obsolescence of any technologies needed to display or use the work may and longevity of the media it is stored on.
Quote
A court would have a very hard time to prosecute you for keeping the desire of an IP going - when the original owner stopped caring if it was in use.
If it got to the court, then they cared enough to sue you over the work's use after you refused to budge through a few cease & desist notices. The courts operate primarily by the letter of law, which is very clear on the subject of software piracy, trademark infringement and copyright infringement.

Yes, the way copyright and trademark laws work sucks - mainly because laws designed to appeal to other media are bloody insane . Find a way to change them or live with it.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: HEATSTROKE on December 07, 2013, 03:45:36 AM
TonyV seems to have confidence that something could be worked out should something ever come to light. So I will hang my hope on that..
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Kyriani on December 07, 2013, 02:14:19 PM
TonyV seems to have confidence that something could be worked out should something ever come to light. So I will hang my hope on that..

That's what I did. Until TonyV says the project is dead I will keep the light of hope burning!
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 07, 2013, 05:01:32 PM
But with the exception of the government, which is protected due to it's sovereign state, the owner of the rocket cannot PREVENT someone else from using that rocket design just because they own it and don't want someone else to use it.  The rocket design is given to them as their "property" for a limited period of time (a patent), so that they can charge for it's use in order to encourage other companies to design more rockets.  But that also REQUIRES them to completely reveal the rocket design publicly and not to use prohibitive restrictions on the use of the rocket design.  Their "ownership" is dependent upon the public good that is produced by others having use of the design openly.

GUess you missed the part where I said the person don't own the rocket anymore, the government do, and thus by their sov. right, they can prevent others from using it. But if an outside person create a rocket, which can be a world changer and thus things are bit different and harder to hoard but really in the grand schematics of things, where do a super hero mmo video game fit into the concept of the "public good"? Really and seriously. I doubt having a video game operating or not operating is considered detrimental to the public good anymore than someone keeping a recipe to a liquor. Sure some people are addicted to liquor and feel they cant live without it, and the person should release the recipe because they want and neeed that particular liquor and the other ones don't feed their need and desire. In court, that would hardly be viewed as ,"man, that poor guy, they should have no right withholding that guy from his addiction." Games are generally viewed as something of recreational side thing, not something that is needed for the common public good of mankind.

Unlike like a rocket or other weapons, medicines and vaccines, can be considered things for the common good of mankind to be used and not locked away.


Now if COX players was running the justice system, then games, or rather COX would have been considered detrimental to mankind if it shut down and NCSOFT is an illegal operating company and before they operate they must promise to bend to the will of it's players for ever and give up all claims to any game they want to shut down. How did laws get to where they were? Being inacted with not much fuss and no one caring what the laws are or what companies do with games or the property. That is until it affects them directly but by then the process is dug in deeper than an Alabama tick. 
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Drauger9 on December 07, 2013, 06:23:27 PM
Quote
TonyV seems to have confidence that something could be worked out should something ever come to light. So I will hang my hope on that..

Same here, I'm going to hold on to hope until I hear other wise. I mean if anything else we got Heroes and Villians, City of Titans and there's another one right? Not sure what the third one is called though.

Those project will never be City of Heroes but I believe they'll come really close to the same look and feel of City of Heroes.

Or who knows maybe the CEO of NCSoft will fall and hit his head. Then think to him self "Let's make an MMO about super heroes. Oh wait we already have on, flip the switches back on NOWZZZ!"..... it could happen. *hides bat*
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 07, 2013, 06:54:50 PM
I mean if anything else we got Heroes and Villians, City of Titans and there's another one right? Not sure what the third one is called though.

Those project will never be City of Heroes but I believe they'll come really close to the same look and feel of City of Heroes.

Or who knows maybe the CEO of NCSoft will fall and hit his head. Then think to him self "Let's make an MMO about super heroes. Oh wait we already have on, flip the switches back on NOWZZZ!"..... it could happen. *hides bat*

hey it can happen. It has happened. The Camaro was dead in the water with no plans initially to bring it back. GM execs called it a niche market not worth development and the Corvette should fill the same slot. A few years later, they realized they basically handed the market on the platter to Mustang, and recanted their stance and brought out the new Camaro in a quick manner with the fanfare to go with it to make up for lost ground.


Coca-Cola changed formula one time and thought people would like the new one. It was supposed to the biggest new product they ever made that would make them money beyond belief. They were wrong. So they brought back the old formula and called it Coca-Cola Classic. No imagine if they sold off the classic formula simply because they had no plans for it at the time. They would have been kicking themselves far worse than they ever could from simple discontinuing a product. Because as long as they have it, they can bring it back maybe in a year or maybe ten. Many products don't make it back even within ten years. 
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: houtex on December 07, 2013, 08:22:37 PM
re: Camaro...  Not so much.  Oh sure, that was the story, of course, but what GM was doing was closing a plant.  Killing Camaro allowed them to do that.  The assembly building was demolished.  GM wanted that place closed for years and the Camarogate allowed them to do that.

Wait a few years... hey, make a Camaro.  Especially after Chrysler came up with Challenger.  Hey all's forgiven... except in Ste. Therese and Quebec, I'm betting, as Camaro's not built there anymore, it's in Ontario.

Basically, GM wasn't selling enough Camaro/Firebird by the time 2002 rolled around, and it gave them the perfect excuse to kill the plant.  There were some legalities that meant they had to wait until 2007 or longer to even think about making a new one... and we all know what happened around that time.  So in 2010, after Mustang had started selling HOT the segment again since 2005 and on they had a real decent excuse to bring it back... somewhere else.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 07, 2013, 09:06:21 PM
re: Camaro...  Not so much.  Oh sure, that was the story, of course, but what GM was doing was closing a plant.  Killing Camaro allowed them to do that.  The assembly building was demolished.  GM wanted that place closed for years and the Camarogate allowed them to do that.

Wait a few years... hey, make a Camaro.  Especially after Chrysler came up with Challenger.  Hey all's forgiven... except in Ste. Therese and Quebec, I'm betting, as Camaro's not built there anymore, it's in Ontario.

Basically, GM wasn't selling enough Camaro/Firebird by the time 2002 rolled around, and it gave them the perfect excuse to kill the plant.  There were some legalities that meant they had to wait until 2007 or longer to even think about making a new one... and we all know what happened around that time.  So in 2010, after Mustang had started selling HOT the segment again since 2005 and on they had a real decent excuse to bring it back... somewhere else.

Sounds very very familiar don't it?

Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Pinnacle Blue on December 07, 2013, 09:12:43 PM
I have a dumb question.

Suppose you wanted to put on The Shining as a play for your local community theatre.  You probably could, but you might want to ask Stephen King if you could.  King would likely say yes and not ask for any kind of fee.

What if SCORE simply... asked NCSoft if they could open a private server or two?
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Pinnacle Blue on December 07, 2013, 09:15:41 PM
Say, that is a very good idea, but there is a very good difference between using it to teach and a learning tool. And merely using it because the players wasn't ready to quit playing yet.

That right there is why you will be the very last person to find out if the project is successful.  Try harder not to make us hate you sight unseen.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 07, 2013, 09:32:18 PM
That right there is why you will be the very last person to find out if the project is successful.  Try harder not to make us hate you sight unseen.

So you was ready to quit playing?

If it wasn't for people like you, COX would have had a bigger community and not be ran away with your type of attitude. In a way it's your fault that we are in this situation to begin with. Last round you won, you got what you wanted. Not enough people playing COX to make it a shutdown risk. Still wasn't satisfied and trying to give a bad name to the community I see. What is in it for you? I bet when the server of the private sort do go alive, I bet you'll be the first one in line snitching to NCSOFT. I bet when the other games go live, you probably will still be trying your hardest to make sure people stay away.

You sir are the true liability here.  Because you sound like the type of person that want them to fail. You want them to make it without thinking and get into legal trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what you dream about each and every night. You sit on here and pretend to care when in reality you hate COHtitan, you hate the movement, you hate that if they go about it smartly they might have success, you hate it all. So while you're busy talking about what other people should try to do, how about you try harder to not make it seem like your wanting them to fail. Then it wouldn't be so easy to see through your fakeness. 

And maybe you could have come up with something more than an idea that wasn't the exact same idea I suggested earlier already. Try harder man, try harder. It's really a very lazy attempt at trying to act like you want them succeed. If anyone should not know any details about anything going on, it is you. I bet you probably already told NCSOFT about what is planned already.  That is why I'm suggesting caution so they wont end up caught blinded from actions of people like you that wish this entire thing to crumble and doing everything in their power to sabotage it.

But as I suggested to you a while ago, if you have beef with me, then man up, and talk to me in private message. Last time you didn't. And for once stop being a coward and going topic to topic starting trouble with me. Send private message, state your problem and we'll deal with it. What are you afraid of? Those "us" people wont be able to back you up or something? 


But back on topic, yes I do think they should be cautious and not rush into it blind. If you hate me for that, then well that is a problem you have to deal with. I already gave you a way to deal with it. If you choose not to, there is nothing more I can do for you. Why not take your own advise and try harder to deal with your problems?
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ironwolf on December 07, 2013, 10:01:24 PM
Wonderful way to run the thread into personal attacks.

Remember the reason we are here is to try and bring back City of Heroes.

JaguarX - you are completely off base on the rocket thing. This is SOFTWARE, ARTWORK and WRITING. This is a creative work. You have someone who purchased the rights to use this work and publish it. Now they decided - we don't want to use it anymore.

I am not basing it on whether you worked there or not, I am basing it on the same premise as abandonware - rather than have it lost for the ages - you put the game into the public domain up until they decide to use it again - if they do you stop all work on it and shut the servers down again as they roll it out.

I seriously wonder if they would be willing to turn the game over to a group specifically to do this?
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: JaguarX on December 07, 2013, 10:15:13 PM
Wonderful way to run the thread into personal attacks.

Remember the reason we are here is to try and bring back City of Heroes.

JaguarX - you are completely off base on the rocket thing. This is SOFTWARE, ARTWORK and WRITING. This is a creative work. You have someone who purchased the rights to use this work and publish it. Now they decided - we don't want to use it anymore.

I am not basing it on whether you worked there or not, I am basing it on the same premise as abandonware - rather than have it lost for the ages - you put the game into the public domain up until they decide to use it again - if they do you stop all work on it and shut the servers down again as they roll it out.

I seriously wonder if they would be willing to turn the game over to a group specifically to do this?

See that is the thing. It's too early to call it abandonware. They didn't say they are not using the IP and other stuff yet. For all anyone know they may be using portions of the IP in various new projects they may have planned. And from what I gather so far no one yet have purchased the right to use and publish this work yet. Even when Cryptic abandoned it, NCOSF still had to purchase the rest of the rights.

Even with writing and artwork, just because the artist isn't adding to it or making sequels using the original artwork doesn't mean they  totally abandoned it immediately or automatically give up their rights and claim to it. Unless of course they actually say they do. Either way, they still own the right to their work and art until they relinquish it, regardless of how often they use it in that type of realm. In fact even dead music artist even though they are dead and if the record company don't own the rights, the estate(family) of said artist still get paid and people still must pay for it. Like those listings of dead artists that are still pulling in money for their estate even though they been long dead. And many of them still have unreleased tracks that by definition someone still owns, and just because it isn't released or planned on released doesn't mean it's fair game to use. 

 Many games been shutdown, as people pointed out, only to come back a few years later, sometimes under new ownership. They never said they didn't want to use it anymore never again just yet.  It's only been a year. Hell, the HM thing is still trying to get negotiation of purchase still and even said that takes a few years or so.

And if the game did come back, think people will shut the servers down? It's already been said they will release to the wild and make it impossible to shut down the servers that is out there.


But they might be willing to, as I suggested earlier, if someone simply asked them. Never know. They may say yes they may say nay.


But with the rocket thing, it fits where it supposed to fit. In the context I was using it in was just because someone works for a company and create something while part of that company and they leave for whatever reason doesn't mean they have claim to their work if they agreed to as part of their employment that what they create is property of that employer. If they were freelance, maybe so. And some people do consider their work in the weapons industry as artwork just as some consider things, like a video game, artwork. 
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: Ohioknight on December 07, 2013, 10:54:22 PM
GUess you missed the part where I said the person don't own the rocket anymore, the government do, and thus by their sov. right, they can prevent others from using it.

I saw it, I just didn't understand why you were bringing sovereign rights into a discussion of ownership of intellectual property by private entities.

... but really in the grand schematics of things, where do a super hero mmo video game fit into the concept of the "public good"? Really and seriously. I doubt having a video game operating or not operating is considered detrimental to the public good anymore than someone keeping a recipe to a liquor. ...  Games are generally viewed as something of recreational side thing, not something that is needed for the common public good of mankind.

Where a video game fits into the concept of the "public good" is exactly where a novel or painting or movie fits into the concept of "public good".   It is a creative work of art and advances the total cultural heritage of mankind.  It's contribution to "the public good" is the ONLY reason that one can "OWN" it under copyright (for a limited period of time). 

Sure some people are addicted to liquor and feel they cant live without it, and the person should release the recipe because they want and neeed that particular liquor and the other ones don't feed their need and desire. In court, that would hardly be viewed as ,"man, that poor guy, they should have no right withholding that guy from his addiction." Games are generally viewed as something of recreational side thing, not something that is needed for the common public good of mankind.

The people posting here who want to play the game make up "the public" and are part of "mankind" -- there's no lesser status accorded to them simply because you denigrate their taste in pastime or entertainment.  City of Heroes is both a creative work of art and an enabling medium that allowed thousands to create derivative works of art.

And AS a work of art, it's protection under copyright is for the same purpose as any -- the encouragement of the creation of OTHER works of art so that the public good is enriched.  That purpose is to be achieved by allowing creators to be rewarded for the creation by selling their work to the public.  The mechanism of "selling" the "property" has made it possible for people to do what NC Soft is doing with COX -- refusing to allow others its use.  That is directly contrary to the good intention of the law -- the exploitation of a failure of the law to contemplate that someone would prefer to not ALLOW the public access to a creative work. 

It is morally wrong. 

It SHOULD be legally wrong. 


And any discussion of the company's actions should keep that in mind.


Oh, and also you can't "own" a recipe.  If you can figure out the recipe of Coke (or a liquor), there is absolutely nothing Coke can do to stop you from producing your own version of the drink.  That's because a recipe is not considered "intellectual property" because it is not considered necessary to reward recipe makers in order to produce more recipes -- beyond the reward they get from producing their products.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: eabrace on December 07, 2013, 11:07:34 PM
Keep it civil in here.  Despite the fact that my moderator hat is fluffy and warm and it's pretty cold outside, I'd still prefer not to have to put it on if I don't have to.
Title: Re: Hope that S.C.O.R.E project is still being contemplated
Post by: eabrace on December 08, 2013, 01:14:17 AM
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