Author Topic: How would you make Vill side better?  (Read 5177 times)

Baja

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How would you make Vill side better?
« on: August 28, 2014, 05:14:43 PM »
I was reading around the forums here and it seems like lots of people loved the AT's from redside, but didn't enjoy the environment or scenery within. This had me thinking what sort of things I would do if I had the chance to change whatever I wanted, however I'm not exactly as creative as lots of people within this community are. To me I wished they would have done more themed zones rather than having a very continuous look throughout, much like how Recluse had a zone that was designed very similar to him, so why not do the same for his goon squad.

Obviously though my idea is pretty limited and obvious. I always wanted a Vegas/mafia themed zone, lots of really bright neon lights that light up the zone, but outside of that all my ideas pretty much are rip offs of well known super villains from major comics. I hate to say it but I think DCUO zones were amazingly well designed in comparison to our red side, don't get me wrong the game itself was horrible but I could fly around those zones and at least get that easy on the eyes feeling despite being surrounded by the "evil". So! If you could make your own concepts/ideas for zones or even improve on the main characters I'd love to hear it!

Blackout

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 06:05:47 PM »
Well Villains already kinda' had a Vegas style area, in that Saint Martial had a crap ton of casino's, and port oakes was rather mafia-esque considering it was filled to the brim with button men from the family.
That said I share your desire to see more areas for the villain side, although I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment as to what I'd want to actually see in them. I guess they could compare some of the additional areas Heroes has that villains doesn't and come up with villainous analogues for some of those areas.

Baja

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 07:19:27 PM »
Well Villains already kinda' had a Vegas style area, in that Saint Martial had a crap ton of casino's, and port oakes was rather mafia-esque considering it was filled to the brim with button men from the family.
That said I share your desire to see more areas for the villain side, although I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment as to what I'd want to actually see in them. I guess they could compare some of the additional areas Heroes has that villains doesn't and come up with villainous analogues for some of those areas.

Yeah I loved that area, I just wish they made the entire zone like that. I would literally fly above there and just hang out chatting with friends, but as soon as it turned to day it looked just as dull as everything else. The more I think about it I get the feeling they kind ran out of ideas having made dark Astoria, shadow shard, etc. for the heroes.

Ultraamann

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 07:56:11 PM »
Try making it actually feel villainous.  Red-side always seemed like little more than a slightly shady version of blue-side.  If I'm going to be playing evil, man, I want to be f*ckin' EVIL.

MWRuger

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 08:07:45 PM »
I think they should do away with a separate  red/blue side and have just one. You would still have factions, but the zones would be shared by both factions.  You could still have faction specific contacts and missions, but just one huge world. I would gradually cross pollinate new missions per specific factions to the older zones. I would also suggest more co-op missions at all levels in all zones.

You would still retain separate PvP zones with no open world PvP.
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Ironwolf

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 08:26:26 PM »
I always wanted them to pull actual characters that were in the game at the time in both Hero and Villian missions as dopplegangers. It was easy for them to reflect you into your missions for a couple of arcs.

I would have pulled random heroes or villians as needed to clone and add as Elite bosses in the game. It would add a level of realism when you see that same character on the street.

The other thing was the overall darkness and relying on red and black themes. I would have some villian areas very neat OCD neat in fact and have people afraid to make any messes - as the "boss" would not like that. They would be living in fear.Villians are not always evil often they are just extremes that have power over you.

Baja

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 08:43:12 PM »
Try making it actually feel villainous.  Red-side always seemed like little more than a slightly shady version of blue-side.  If I'm going to be playing evil, man, I want to be f*ckin' EVIL.

Yeah I agree with this big time, the problem was the game rating. You can't exactly have horrifically evil story lines/zones if it's rated for kids. At the same time though I'm sure someone with the right ideas could at least come up with something to compensate for this. I mean we couldn't even hurt the civilians walking around... As a hero there we random mobs mugging the civs that you would save, why not give us the ability to do the mugging.

I always wanted them to pull actual characters that were in the game at the time in both Hero and Villian missions as dopplegangers. It was easy for them to reflect you into your missions for a couple of arcs.

I would have pulled random heroes or villians as needed to clone and add as Elite bosses in the game. It would add a level of realism when you see that same character on the street.

The other thing was the overall darkness and relying on red and black themes. I would have some villian areas very neat OCD neat in fact and have people afraid to make any messes - as the "boss" would not like that. They would be living in fear.Villians are not always evil often they are just extremes that have power over you.

When going rogue came out Tyrants Utopia kind of filled that gap of the neat/clean area. The thing is though it could have easily been incorporated into CoV. I also agree with not having main characters from the story in arcs outside of trials. I think a big problem is how states and them were supposed to be god-like in comparison to our toons, which to me doesn't make sense. It seems anytime there's super heroes/villains we're never equals to main characters, when really that's what a super fan is striving for, to create their own legacy. I didn't want to be known as the guy who helped states/recluse win, I wanted to be the one who saved them or won it all.


Thunder Glove

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 09:36:26 PM »
Related:

When I first heard the name Grandville, I was picturing something much more... grand.  Think of Dr. Doom's Latveria - a pristine paradise, albeit one ruled with an iron fist.  Villains don't have to live in squalor, filth, and dim lighting.

DarkCurrent

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 10:47:48 PM »
More strikeforces.  There were level gaps with none.  Especially that 10+ 'positron TF' range.

SFs were the most rewarding content and there were fewer redside options that got old fast.

Number9

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 10:53:04 PM »
I assume we are speaking in terms of a CoH2.  If so there's one thing I think the game would have to have from the get go - RvR (realm-v-realm) game play. 

Make the actions of villain and hero player alike impact the game world and effect the environment/missions of the opposing side.  While PvP arenas and zones are fun, its not the same as being in direct competition and having direct effects on the opposite side's life. 

An simple example of how one way RvR could play out in CoH2 would be take a hero PvE zone, call it The Docks, and players through street fighting and missions reduce the criminality in said zone.  Missions would then be generated villian side to go to the docks (perhaps just PvE but perhaps also PvP) and sow chaos and crime. RvR could also have dramatic effects on major plot lines of a particular server. 

Anyway, if theres anything I think CoH2 would have to have, it would be RvR.
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BadWolf

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 11:10:59 PM »
To be honest, there's very little I'd change. There were a ton of great villain arcs spanning all sorts of character concepts--Westin Phipps and Peter Themari were wonderfully horrible, while Mister Bocor and Dean McArthur were elegantly selfish. There were even funny ones--I REVELED in hitting 40 and doing the Television arcs.

The things I'd change would be to move them into more sensible paths. It seems to me that with the introduction of the Rogue Alignment, some of the arcs that focused around making money and being selfish (mercenary arcs, theft-heavy stuff, etc) should change from being Villain Arcs to being Rogue Arcs. Likewise, some of the arcs that are about getting revenge on those who wronged you or wronged someone else could become Vigilante Arcs. (Blueside needs Rogue content and Redside needs Vigilante content, dangit! Have side-switching be useful!) Then you'd have the truly evil arcs as Villain Arcs. Naturally, this would cause a bit of paucity in the existing Villain Arcs, so you'd need to add some more. Oh darn. :)

Also, there should be an Arachnos-free content path through each level range. It was great when they added Matthew Burke for the people who didn't want to be lackeys of Arachnos; there should be enough non-Arachnos content that you don't have to sign up for them if you don't want to.

Oh, and they should either utterly scrap or completely revamp Willy Wheeler's story arc. It's terrible "idiot ball" plotting; I worked out from about the second mission that I was being used as a patsy, but there was no way to not keep doing Longbow's dirty work until the script said I could figure it out.

But most of my ideas just involve organizing the existing content a little more sensibly to give the players a more organic and character-driven experience. The actual redside game is freaking metal. :)

Paragon Avenger

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 12:39:25 AM »
The main thing that stumped me in red side, was that stupid fortress.  Maybe I'm slow or something, but I used to spend hours trying to figure out how to get in the castle.  Since then they give fly at level 4 so not such a problem.
Also, more low level zones.  Time and again the most door was too close to purples or even a group of yellows can ruin the day of a level 8  or around there's.

Blackshear

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2014, 03:46:24 AM »
Related:

When I first heard the name Grandville, I was picturing something much more... grand.  Think of Dr. Doom's Latveria - a pristine paradise, albeit one ruled with an iron fist.

They did that with Praetoria.  Personally, I don't know what everyone is complaining about.  The Isles are basically a banana republic and they look like one.  In a way, they were better maintained than Paragon...half of the city was a smoldering ruin, after all.  Boomtown, the Hollows, Faultline, Crey's Folly, Astoria, Terra Volta, and later Galaxy City.  Paragon was a freakin' mess, people.  The Isles were fairly well kept by comparison.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 04:06:30 AM by Mike D »

Baja

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2014, 03:37:02 PM »
They did that with Praetoria.  Personally, I don't know what everyone is complaining about.  The Isles are basically a banana republic and they look like one.  In a way, they were better maintained than Paragon...half of the city was a smoldering ruin, after all.  Boomtown, the Hollows, Faultline, Crey's Folly, Astoria, Terra Volta, and later Galaxy City.  Paragon was a freakin' mess, people.  The Isles were fairly well kept by comparison.


The Isles were like a giant version of boomtown. It was all so plain and lacking in color... Don't get me wrong I loved the fact there was a villain side in the first place and was absolutely in love with the things offered to villains. I just wished there was some unique features to the zones. I agree that praetoria was great though.

Young Tutor

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2014, 05:20:05 PM »
I'm brainstorming, but a few ideas:

1.) Make a zone that would be "in" Paragon City but not a blue side zone. Not necessarily a PVP zone, but one where bad guys could run around and be bad. You could do that in missions, but I think having an actual zone with contacts would be fun and thematic.

2.) Make crossovers more of a thing. Vigilante and Rogue contacts would encourage some more side switching. On that note, side switching in general was kind of rough and a big time sink. Maybe a side-switch trial or TF could be a thing?

3.) This is pie in the sky, but you know how when you finished the LGTF a Rikti Invasion would spawn? I think it would be cool if there was a SF that spawned an "AV" class version of the SF team inside paragon city. Maybe even let the players control the AV versions of themselves. There'd be warnings the same way when invasions happened players were given a chance to get out of the way. I realize there are a whole host of potential problems that could arise, but events where the Devs play as GMs or AVs are a lot of fun. Even though the fight is unfair and the Devs "cheat", it is awesome to take them down and if you don't want to play, you could just go to another zone.

4.) I second the extra SFs idea.

Baja

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2014, 07:38:41 PM »
I'm brainstorming, but a few ideas:

1.) Make a zone that would be "in" Paragon City but not a blue side zone. Not necessarily a PVP zone, but one where bad guys could run around and be bad. You could do that in missions, but I think having an actual zone with contacts would be fun and thematic.

2.) Make crossovers more of a thing. Vigilante and Rogue contacts would encourage some more side switching. On that note, side switching in general was kind of rough and a big time sink. Maybe a side-switch trial or TF could be a thing?

3.) This is pie in the sky, but you know how when you finished the LGTF a Rikti Invasion would spawn? I think it would be cool if there was a SF that spawned an "AV" class version of the SF team inside paragon city. Maybe even let the players control the AV versions of themselves. There'd be warnings the same way when invasions happened players were given a chance to get out of the way. I realize there are a whole host of potential problems that could arise, but events where the Devs play as GMs or AVs are a lot of fun. Even though the fight is unfair and the Devs "cheat", it is awesome to take them down and if you don't want to play, you could just go to another zone.

4.) I second the extra SFs idea.


I think 1 and 2 are fantastic ideas. I couldn't agree more with switching being such a time sink. I mean it makes sense that switching should involve a degree of difficulty, but a 4 hour trial would easily make just as much sense in a story perspective. If a villain is planning on becoming a hero I doubt it would take them a couple weeks to do so, there would be some kind of major event that alters the perspective of said villain. Perhaps offer options as to what reasoning your villain is choosing just as the trial starts? The story could reflect your chosen path while the tasks all remain the same as for someone choosing another, which would save time on creating content while offering some degree of personalization. I don't know if that's even viable but is at least a possibility. If I'm going to be brutally honest though I would be just fine with only one story option for the trial just so long as it made the amount of time spent on switching decrease. Maybe have a trial for each step if duration of switches is a problem? Just kind of throwing ideas out there.

ukaserex

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2014, 10:22:51 AM »
Try making it actually feel villainous.  Red-side always seemed like little more than a slightly shady version of blue-side.  If I'm going to be playing evil, man, I want to be f*ckin' EVIL.

Here's the thing. There are two types of villains. Those who want to avoid capture and must sneak around, blending in with the rest of society and those that aren't terribly concerned about capture because they can either escape the clutches of the law easily, or outgun them.

Honestly, redside wasn't evil at all. It was like an anti-world. Not the opposite of blue side, and not really run down, just creepy. More scary than evil. There's a difference, in my mind. To me, redside should have been like blue side, only more run down. Perhaps parts of it were, but with all the snakes and spiders I was distracted. What spiders and snakes have to do with criminal types is beyond me. I never did like that arachnos storyline thing. Spiders. Yick!

A real limiting facet of redside was that there was no room for the white collar criminal. No way to pass a bogus check or scam old ladies for their SS checks. Not sure how much fun that would be anyway, passing a check here and then moving around quickly so the boys in blue can't come get you. I suppose they could have written that into a storyline somehow. (For all I know, they did. I only did the content that gave my blue side character a badge)

I guess, to be on point, the first thing I'd do is lose Lord Recluse. Or keep him and take those stupid spider-legs. Lose the rest of the spiders and snakes. Keep the human npcs - family, sky raiders, freaks, etc. Change the architecture somewhat. Have actual neighborhoods with suburban subdivisions that have single family homes. Just like Spider-man had bills and romance issues to contend with, criminals can sometimes have wives and children. They don't all sleep in apartments. Most criminals are regular people, only desperate, but instead of it being due to bad economics, it's usually due to poor decisions - like getting incredibly high interest rates on their student loans. And instead of just not paying the darn payments, they rob a bank - when they'd probably have gotten away with more money, less risk by just not sending them any money.

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Thunder Glove

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2014, 10:43:45 PM »
... that doesn't sound like a lot of supervillains, especially not the over-the-top sort I like to play.  Dr. Bodog was not a middle-class worker in over his head with debt, he was a maniacal supergenius who wanted to take over the world and robots and weather control satellites to help him do it.  He took down the Freedom Phalanx just to show them who they were dealing with.  He took down Mot because it was threatening him.  He helped Pratetoria so they would look upon him as a god.  Money?  Feh.   How does he fit into your white collar suburbia?

And I'm not sure what you're on about with "spiders and snakes".  Arachnos just used various types spiders for a naming and design scheme, not because the people in the organization were actually spiders.  (Except for Recluse himself, and even he hid his spider-legs in armor to make them look mechanical)

And the Snakes were a compltely unrelated group following a different Incarnate leader, Stheno.  (Though Crey managed to turn themselves into snakes in one Vigilante tip mission, as I recall)

"What spiders and snakes have to do with criminal types is beyond me"?  Characters themed after spiders and snakes are just as much a part of a superhero world as characters themed after bats and spiders.  Why is Lord Recluse any more unusual than Doctor Octopus, the Rhino, the Penguin, or Catwoman?

Baja

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2014, 11:21:33 PM »
I think Ukaserex has a point that really hits home with me. I always wanted to play the totally insane outcast who is willing and able to hurt people in anyway possible. I love The Joker so much, I always wanted a game that offered me that villainous role but have never found it. Even within the the RP community anytime I tried interacting with others with this sort of concept it was quickly exiled. Then again in my opinion the RP community wanted more teen titans than dark knight type of stories, which is totally understandable just kind of inconvenient for people like me.

Holding families hostage and having the option of killing them would be great, maybe you lose out on the ransom but your level of "evil" is increased. I just really think some villains want money and power while others "Just want to watch the world burn" and I'm itching to see some fire.

Kistulot

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Re: How would you make Vill side better?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2014, 12:13:11 AM »
For me, I really hated the City of Mercenaries feel Redside had at launch and for a long time following. They were slowly making efforts to make you less of a lackey doing other people's dirty work - esp with the SSAs - but that was my biggest problem.

Typically the kind of things I wanted from redside required a blueside team. Menacing a computer for some reason works less for me than saving one. Menacing PCs works a lot better.  Honestly the leveling content that tended to feel best for me was the radio - I was taking down people threatening my rep. A villain has a name to uphold. Money is nice, but who cares if no one respects/fears you?

Additionally, who would want to be taking things from the Rogue Isles? It's a scrap bucket, to put it nicely. Recluse has built himself a nice little fortress in Granville, but it's still a rather nasty place. Villains like mine would want sophistication, class, something that looked a loooot more like Praetoria. Honestly those maps being canonically destroyed was sooo disheartening if only for that purpose.

That said, if the game were back I know the goals most important there for me - finding allies and enemies - would be quite doable. AE fixes the problem of mishes all about NPCs, and Going Rogue would let a villain be a rogue and chill out over in Paragon. Where better to find someone to rough up later, after all, then when beating up on lesser evils so when you come to them later for a favor they remember how easily you could be throwing them all in the zig instead.
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