Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1745320 times)

HEATSTROKE

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4800 on: January 30, 2015, 03:14:11 PM »
CO just flat out stinks... and its an insult to anyone who actually played the Champions/Hero System PnP games.

It was a terrible terrible game and experience for me. I tried it twice. I would rather fantasize over a dead CoH and look at my Mid's builds than to play a vastly inferior product...

Power Gamer

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4801 on: January 30, 2015, 05:01:41 PM »
CO just flat out stinks... and its an insult to anyone who actually played the Champions/Hero System PnP games.

It was a terrible terrible game and experience for me. I tried it twice. I would rather fantasize over a dead CoH and look at my Mid's builds than to play a vastly inferior product...

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mrultimate

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4802 on: January 30, 2015, 07:32:42 PM »
CO just flat out stinks... and its an insult to anyone who actually played the Champions/Hero System PnP games.

It was a terrible terrible game and experience for me. I tried it twice. I would rather fantasize over a dead CoH and look at my Mid's builds than to play a vastly inferior product...

I would rather fly around a EMPTY Paragon in Icon than play Champions.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4803 on: January 30, 2015, 08:30:33 PM »
I think it's a stupid "lesson" to feel that hard control was bad, because it set them up to later make crowd control completely without any use, because they kind of had the attitude of a scrub mentality when many rpgs had hard control in them.  Just you needed to provide means to counter crowd control that was modestly available.  CO initially had solid cc but CC got nerfed so much in the hands of the player, while also buffed in the hands of mobs when players ignored cc resistance.
Even at the beginning CO's control was far less than that available in CoH.  And I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a "stupid" lesson.  CoH genuinely had brain-meltingly high levels of control which in any other game would have made it stupidly impossible to balance very well.

It only worked in CoH because we were allowed to become so powerful that pure offense was competitive with hard control, except in situations where hard targets were not easy to kill.  Thus: purple triangles.  But even so, consider how controllers complained their primary was significantly attenuated in Incarnate content.  And conversely consider the flip side case of putting the STF AVs to sleep.  It was never a stable situation in CoH.

What Cryptic failed to learn, what even Paragon didn't always appreciate, and what few game designers seem to acknowledge, is that "game balance" is a context-sensitive term.  There's no such thing as "numerically balanced" in the literal sense, because numbers offer no guidance on balance.  The definition of game balance I developed during my time with CoH was: Balance is about making game play options have the valuations they need to have in order for the gameplay to function as its intended to function.  Notice three words I don't use in my definition: "numbers," "equations," and in particular "equals."  Game balance is not when something is equal to something.  Its when the relationship between X and Y are what they need to be for the game to work properly.  Not necessarily equal.

Hard control in CoH wasn't as bad as it could be because it existed in a world of high-order AoE, of aggro control, of super-high defense.  It existed in a world where high defense and aggro control could neutralize a similar amount of damage, and where high-order AoE could defeat as many foes and hard control could nullify.  It was broken, but it existed in a system of lots of other broken things that happened to (very roughly) balance out.

The lesson Cryptic should have learned, the subtle lesson that escaped most players as well, was that gameplay balance is about presenting equal opportunity options to the player, and the components of those choices must be engineered to offer those choices.  In CoH, you should not be punished or overly rewarded for picking the "right" or "wrong" archetype.  There should be no right or wrong archetype.  And that means the things to give those archetypes must give the player a unique but roughly even ability to succeed.  If you're going to give out super-strong defense and aggro control to one archetype, you have to give out very good crowd control to another, and very high damage to the other.  It wasn't always like that: it was highly unbalanced at launch.  CoH was refined to become that over time, at least to a first order approximation, because Cryptic/Paragon had no choice: they couldn't start from scratch.  But the choice they were forced into was actually the best one for players.

I tried to explain this philosophy during CO early beta.  It did not go well.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4804 on: January 30, 2015, 08:44:52 PM »

The lesson Cryptic should have learned, the subtle lesson that escaped most players as well, was that gameplay balance is about presenting equal opportunity options to the player, and the components of those choices must be engineered to offer those choices.  In CoH, you should not be punished or overly rewarded for picking the "right" or "wrong" archetype.  There should be no right or wrong archetype.  And that means the things to give those archetypes must give the player a unique but roughly even ability to succeed.  If you're going to give out super-strong defense and aggro control to one archetype, you have to give out very good crowd control to another, and very high damage to the other.  It wasn't always like that: it was highly unbalanced at launch.  CoH was refined to become that over time, at least to a first order approximation, because Cryptic/Paragon had no choice: they couldn't start from scratch.  But the choice they were forced into was actually the best one for players.

I tried to explain this philosophy during CO early beta.  It did not go well.

That context and the overall scale, is exactly why city of heroes is truer to an rpg than most mmorpgs, and how generally the sheer number of options were viable, that is so true, it's about how viable different strategies are, not just number differences.  Thats something that escaped CO's developers.  A good way to describe CoH was that, no one powerset was truely dominant over the others because every effect was truely very effective.  You indeed were not punished for picking a wrong archtype or powerset combination, it just meant your strategy would be different.  While CO you tend to be punished for not picking the right passives or the right superstats.  I could use a recent character as an example, I had to switch to constitution because I found I wasn't gaining much damage at all from the ego superstat.  I switched to constitution primary and my character was not only tougher overall but remained at full health far more often.  And not due to agro loss.

It was due to the fact that crits with constitution HEAL you.  Yeah.  See, I didn't lose any damage overall, as the crits from ego as a primary, were to low anyways.  So I was "rewarded" for switching out ego for constitution.  But I didn't change my strategy, at all.

Balance is certainly context sensitive, and indeed, doubling my durability for only a 2-4% loss in firepower is something thats common in many games out there because they never think about different strategies.  But a trade in city of heroes was often, not so much as a trade, but a total change in strategy when it came to characters and powersets.  Thats what really kicked ass about city of heroes, and it was made to work, that was to me the smarter decision.  I couldn't make such "easy" trades in it, so instead of trading offense/defense or something, I simply looked at what strategy I wanted to use instead.

While CO on the other hand, it ended up with developers who didn't know anything about how their own game was even playing or how to think outside the box as they just made a game about "Smash things up faster or take less damage, your choice, oh if your healing others you'll suck at both of those and crowd control shall be weak".  They tried to be an action game and didn't do that well and then ended up becoming more similar to a generic mmo.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4805 on: January 30, 2015, 11:08:32 PM »
While CO on the other hand, it ended up with developers who didn't know anything about how their own game was even playing or how to think outside the box as they just made a game about "Smash things up faster or take less damage, your choice, oh if your healing others you'll suck at both of those and crowd control shall be weak".  They tried to be an action game and didn't do that well and then ended up becoming more similar to a generic mmo.

Originally I believe the plan was for CO to launch simultaneously on PCs and consoles.  The gameplay is very obviously (at least to me) influenced by the need for the game to work with console controllers, and to be dominated by console-like "twitchiness."

Although I don't play the game (at least not yet: haven't had the time) I wonder if in a few respects Destiny might be the game CO initially tried to be and failed to be (and I doubt Cryptic ever had the ability to pull off), minus the explicit reference to the superhero genre.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4806 on: January 30, 2015, 11:55:43 PM »
Originally I believe the plan was for CO to launch simultaneously on PCs and consoles.  The gameplay is very obviously (at least to me) influenced by the need for the game to work with console controllers, and to be dominated by console-like "twitchiness."

Although I don't play the game (at least not yet: haven't had the time) I wonder if in a few respects Destiny might be the game CO initially tried to be and failed to be (and I doubt Cryptic ever had the ability to pull off), minus the explicit reference to the superhero genre.

Go figure, though, I didn't think CO was twitchy, sure the gameplay is fast but, your not really at risk of dying very fast.

I wouldn't say Destiny is what CO tried to initially be, though, because Destiny is more trying to be a modern military massively multiplayer online shooter.  Its got guns, regenerating health and generally expects the player to go through just shooting things.  Not something I can touch after play, 'that', game(not talking about CO either, but, that, game that changed my perspective of gamers, specifically those that play any game with a false sense of reward and success).
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MWRuger

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4807 on: January 31, 2015, 12:03:23 AM »
To me the power building attack that you have to spam makes it seem pretty twitchy and button mashy. I tried three times with CO and just couldn't get into it. It is very possible that it failed in my eyes by not being more like CoH. But even when it was the only game in town it didn't really work for me.
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Brou

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4808 on: January 31, 2015, 12:33:38 AM »
To me the power building attack that you have to spam makes it seem pretty twitchy and button mashy. I tried three times with CO and just couldn't get into it. It is very possible that it failed in my eyes by not being more like CoH. But even when it was the only game in town it didn't really work for me.
Do you mean the energy builder?
The default mode for energy builder is toggle. It can be made to never toggle off, no matter what, too.
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Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4809 on: January 31, 2015, 12:59:50 AM »
Go figure, though, I didn't think CO was twitchy, sure the gameplay is fast but, your not really at risk of dying very fast.
The block mechanism, for example, is something you don't usually see in MMOs.  Not just the literal block power, but its use in conjunction with obvious wham attack visuals.  And while you can toggle the energy builder as Brou states above, its also an example of a more twitchy mechanic not just because you spam it, but because it is part of a combat execution system that tends to be more real-time and less queued: CoH was more of a queued attack system which tends to be less twitchy because it doesn't have to be as reactive.

There's also a subjective impression I get that CO attacks tends to be, visually, more short and staccato on average.  You don't tend to see attacks like Eagle's Claw in CO for example.  It also seems to me that attacks don't visually flow together as well, and I'm not really sure if that's just a subjective thing or a consequence of the fact CoH animators could reduce their efforts to making powers in a single set flow together as a priority rather than having all attacks flow together equally well across all power sets (because players could pick openly).  But that tends to reinforce visually for me a more twitchy experience.

In CoH I found you could find yourself getting into a fugue state of attacks and powers just flowing out of you while the action happened around you, whereas I find I rarely find myself getting into any rhythm in CO and reacting more on a power-by-power basis.  The fact that power execution tends to be less queued, more rapid, and more reactive on a power by power basis is what I mean by being more "twitchy."  Its more finely grained see-this-do-that than in CoH which was more see-this-do-this-that-and-the-other.

Ankhammon

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4810 on: January 31, 2015, 05:14:32 AM »
...  Its more finely grained see-this-do-that than in CoH which was more see-this-do-this-that-and-the-other.

Unless you were a Defender, then it was see-this-do-this-and-tha... Awwww, the team killed them all already... and I was just about ready to fire off some damage too.
Maybe I should jump in ahead of the tank next time...

:)
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Remaugen

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4811 on: January 31, 2015, 06:24:54 AM »
CO just flat out stinks... and its an insult to anyone who actually played the Champions/Hero System PnP games.

It was a terrible terrible game and experience for me. I tried it twice. I would rather fantasize over a dead CoH and look at my Mid's builds than to play a vastly inferior product...

I agree, the only resemblance that I could find between the tabletop game and CO was the name. But, to be fair, it is hard, if not impossible, to capture the tabletop flavor in an MMO.

Champions, Villains & Vigilantes, Mutants & Masterminds, DC Heroes (In several flavors), Marvel Super Heroes (in all it's many flavors) can NEVER be captured in an MMO really, so really it's not worth the comparison. Enjoy the Online versions as best you can and cherish the tabletop versions for when you can gather friends around and play them.

Meanwhile, for the solo experience, the online versions just can't be beat!

And being able to team with friends who might be half a world away? Priceless!!!

So CO & DCOU aren't as good as CoX, but for now, we don't have CoX, so enjoy what you can while you can! (If you can!)
We're almost there!  ;D

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Sugoi

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4812 on: February 01, 2015, 09:32:50 PM »
So CO & DCOU aren't as good as CoX, but for now, we don't have CoX, so enjoy what you can while you can! (If you can!)

Exactly why I've been playing a lot of Civilization 5 lately, as well as several fun 4X games as well.  Until CoX is reactivated Superhero MMOs are dead to me.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4813 on: February 01, 2015, 10:10:14 PM »
Exactly why I've been playing a lot of Civilization 5 lately, as well as several fun 4X games as well.  Until CoX is reactivated Superhero MMOs are dead to me.

I admit I still have fun with CO but not often.  But I have been also playing new vegas alot, I am actually experimenting with playing hardcore mode now, it's making me want to change my strategy;

Don't rush dead money(wait till level 20 for solar powered)
Consider more melee specifically for dead money(since thats a survival horror game).
Since I use project nevada, get all the limb regen implants for dead money.(yes, I make a lot of dead money specific adjustments due to it's horrid design).
Do Old world blues first to remove head and torso crippling, combined with limb regen implants and solar powered my character will literally just regenerate during the daytime(and faster than the orange cloud effect).
Don't use the companions to clear anything, do it all by myself(because they are morons who kill themselves, that means I have to do all the work)
So far those are the only real changes, since I notice that maintaining a good supply of food and water is not actually hard in any of the other dlcs.


I may even decide not to bother with dead money though, to.  I also experimented with caravan strategies so I wouldn't be so dependent on huge luck scores.
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Sinistar

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4814 on: February 02, 2015, 02:12:21 AM »
Exactly why I've been playing a lot of Civilization 5 lately, as well as several fun 4X games as well.  Until CoX is reactivated Superhero MMOs are dead to me.

Reformatted my old XP box with a fresh image of XP and installed all the needed XP files then loaded it with all the games in my library and hooked it to my 60" LCD TV.   Civilization, Command and Conquer, assorted Star Wars games never looked so good or fun as they do now.
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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4815 on: February 02, 2015, 10:33:18 AM »
I feel like Marvel Heroes Online is a lot more in-line with how City of Heroes used to be.

Its an Isometric game with imposed diablo like controls.  But the flow is more like city of heroes....also some of the developers from city of heroes seam to be working on it.

I have no Idea what the upshot of this 3 year long negotiation with the one person to see if they can get introduced to someone else to talk about getting the rights to run the game again is going to go.

But in the mean time I too have been playing other games....Destiny is one...Marvel Heroes Online is another.....I do occasionally log into DCUO and Champions...but those games just bore the life out of me...too many limitations in those games.

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4816 on: February 02, 2015, 08:56:00 PM »
I feel like Marvel Heroes Online is a lot more in-line with how City of Heroes used to be.

The space combat in STO has, in my opinion, a weird echo of CoH combat.  Superficially, its nothing like it with range, continuous movement, and directional arcs.  But then it sneaks up on you that STO's power execution system settles into an attack chain rhythm that is remarkably similar at times.  Even moreso that Champions Online, actually.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4817 on: February 02, 2015, 10:53:51 PM »

But in the mean time I too have been playing other games....Destiny is one...Marvel Heroes Online is another.....I do occasionally log into DCUO and Champions...but those games just bore the life out of me...too many limitations in those games.

I hear Destiny is coming to PC in March, supposedly.  We shall see if that happens or not, but it would be interesting to play it, if it does.  I can't play consoles because they give me sim-sickness.  Though I have a computer with 200+ games so I don't really need a console.  lol.

I logged into DCUO last summer and they had deleted all my characters since the last time I played, not sure why, though I do know the servers got combined.  Then I played for about a day and was perfectly fine uninstalling it again.  It was interesting for a bit, but just too much the console port, too much just about "gankin newbs" there and less about the story line that should be of importance. Plus, I guess I'm spoiled by CoX because having only 5-6 powers at a time is just frustrating to me, merely for the fact that eventually you'd have to "rebuild" every time you went and did something just to meet the mission given.

I still play CO once in a while, but it is taxing.  They really haven't changed much at all since it first opened over 5 years ago.  I have a lifetime so its paid for (same as for DCUO), but its just not there.  It is as if "they" have given up on it and focus all their attention on Star Trek Online.  STO has updates monthly, CO's updates are "here's this new fluff you can buy from the zen store!"  As opposed to "here's this new part of the city for you to patrol!"

I had high hopes for CO, since there was involvement from CoX alumni, that it would spawn and expand to larger things.  But alas, it did not.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4818 on: February 02, 2015, 11:30:43 PM »
Quote
I hear Destiny is coming to PC in March, supposedly
I don't think this is true sadly.  I have been playing Destiny since day 1.  I am one of the people who got hooked and are figuring out why they like it so much.  However they can barely add content and bug fixes at the rate they are already.  The game as is short on content and is riddled with bugs that they are supposedly addressing. Making it for the PC would only slow down their progress on it.  It would be putting the carriage before the horse.

I've heard the "steam" sale rumor but I just don't actually believe it.  With how much work they should do on the current game as is, a lot of people would not be happy if they released a PC version before making the current version better.

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4819 on: February 03, 2015, 03:48:11 AM »
I don't think this is true sadly.  I have been playing Destiny since day 1.  I am one of the people who got hooked and are figuring out why they like it so much.  However they can barely add content and bug fixes at the rate they are already.  The game as is short on content and is riddled with bugs that they are supposedly addressing. Making it for the PC would only slow down their progress on it.  It would be putting the carriage before the horse.

I've heard the "steam" sale rumor but I just don't actually believe it.  With how much work they should do on the current game as is, a lot of people would not be happy if they released a PC version before making the current version better.

Last I knew Bungie said there were no plans to develop Destiny for PC.  However, that's really just as well because the end-game grind for ascendant shards/energy gear upgrades, not to mention the extra junk you need to get post-DLC to upgrade gear with, will drive people so crazy they'll quit in a couple months anyway.   I killed myself on PS4 for 2 1/2 months to get all these upgraded exotics, and suddenly post-DLC, the legendary vendor junk was better and I was told to trash everything and start over in a sense.  Pffft to that, I quit and never went back.