Author Topic: And the mask comes off.  (Read 1744622 times)

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4780 on: January 25, 2015, 07:03:02 PM »
What?  Are you crazy? ;)
You say that like its a bad thing.

mrultimate

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4781 on: January 25, 2015, 10:58:16 PM »
I've come to the conclusion that I don't care how, I don't care who, I just want to play CoH again. Good grief I'm so ready to sub up my accounts again.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4782 on: January 27, 2015, 08:01:42 AM »
I want to play with time manipulation again so badly.  Especially since CO will never have it and even if it did I'm sure they'd gimp it to the point I'd never ever want to roleplay there again(my character being a time manip would be gimped thematically if they gimped time themed powers, thus, I'd never want to play the them in the first place.  It's why I never play telepaths there, same reason).
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Solitaire

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4783 on: January 27, 2015, 11:52:41 AM »
I've come to the conclusion that I don't care how, I don't care who, I just want to play CoH again. Good grief I'm so ready to sub up my accounts again.

This +1  ;)

Sinistar

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4784 on: January 27, 2015, 07:18:46 PM »
I've come to the conclusion that I don't care how, I don't care who, I just want to play CoH again. Good grief I'm so ready to sub up my accounts again.

Line forms behind me :)
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

Angel Phoenix77

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4785 on: January 27, 2015, 08:06:27 PM »
I want to play with time manipulation again so badly.  Especially since CO will never have it and even if it did I'm sure they'd gimp it to the point I'd never ever want to roleplay there again(my character being a time manip would be gimped thematically if they gimped time themed powers, thus, I'd never want to play the them in the first place.  It's why I never play telepaths there, same reason).
That is very true, for co you could use super speed for cosmetic purposes.
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LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4786 on: January 27, 2015, 11:39:05 PM »
That is very true, for co you could use super speed for cosmetic purposes.

Thats pretty much the only way at this point.  Or teleport.  The sad thing is, I don't want cryptic north to bother with time manipulating abilities because I know they'd screw it up like they had the new telepathy powers.  The new telepathy powers for example are neigh-useless unless you are already level 40 and even then only with very specific setups and even then better attacks exist.  They just, cannot grasp any concepts of buffing/debuffing or crowd control.  So I wouldn't want them throwing the power themes in.  Because then everyone would be "Well time manipulation sucks so your character must suck" to me.  Because thats kind of the main theme of a few characters, namely, my mains.  I'd be utterly unwilling to even roleplay anymore in such an event.

Every concept I came up with in city of heroes was powerful in gameplay.  Only a couple qualified in CO.
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Whatelse73

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4787 on: January 28, 2015, 02:32:27 AM »
Every concept I came up with in city of heroes was powerful in gameplay.  Only a couple qualified in CO.

I know how you feel.  I made a few archetypes in CO and it seemed like even my pets heavy character wasn't much to do for.  Even my "seemingly" powerful characters in CO were wimpy to me. 

Another reason I really really really can't wait for CoX to come back.

duane

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4788 on: January 28, 2015, 01:31:33 PM »
I know how you feel.  I made a few archetypes in CO and it seemed like even my pets heavy character wasn't much to do for.  Even my "seemingly" powerful characters in CO were wimpy to me. 

Another reason I really really really can't wait for CoX to come back.

It's funny you guys say that... I too felt my hero in champions was just not super.  I played for two 6 months stints and was really never connected to the character I played.

....and I never went alt-crazy.  I could barely stand playing 5 characters.

Abraxus

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4789 on: January 28, 2015, 02:07:06 PM »
It's funny you guys say that... I too felt my hero in champions was just not super.  I played for two 6 months stints and was really never connected to the character I played.

....and I never went alt-crazy.  I could barely stand playing 5 characters.

That is exactly how I felt playing CO.  This was when it first came out, so I am sure there are things that are different now.  However, the ability to "connect" with your character so much that you look for excuses to play him/her is just something it never inspired in me.  Like you, I had 4 or 5 characters when I left, and I never gave them a second thought when I returned to CoH.
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Thunder Glove

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4790 on: January 28, 2015, 03:53:41 PM »
Yeah, I never felt super in CO.  I put together characters I thought would be fun, but they almost never were.  At best, they were pale imitations of my CoH characters.  My melee characters got easily knocked around the room like pinballs, my ranged characters felt underpowered and fragile (even more than Blasters at their worst), and my attempts at recreating my Controllers and Dominators were just weak Blasters with pets (due to the lack of non-Telepathy CC).  Only my attempt at my Bots/Storm MM felt playable.  (I actually liked him, but having so many characters on the screen slowed things down to a crawl on my old computer)

The game tries to hide how weak you are by making their Minions (I forget what CO calls them) even weaker in comparison, but as soon as you fight a Boss (Villain?) or higher, you start to feel the lack of power.

That said, I haven't even been able to run CO on my shiny new computer to see whether it can handle my Pseudo-Mastermind.  When I tried it, the Launcher opened fine, but when I clicked Play, the Launcher closed, and... that's it.  CO was on my Dock (so it was running), but the actual game window never opened.  I deleted and re-installed a few times, but it never helped.

So I trashed the whole thing and never looked back.  (That's still one of the biggest things I miss about CoH - it was Mac-compatible.  No kludges or workarounds.  If CO wants to win me over, a Mac client is the first thing Cryptic North can do)

Drauger9

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4791 on: January 29, 2015, 05:59:48 AM »
I've come to the conclusion that I don't care how, I don't care who, I just want to play CoH again. Good grief I'm so ready to sub up my accounts again.

Right there with you, I'll wipe my CC out so fast the plastic will melt.

Felderburg

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4792 on: January 29, 2015, 04:21:20 PM »
Right there with you, I'll wipe my CC out so fast the plastic will melt.

I'm imagining this in my mind like that Twilight Zone episode, where the guy that can finally read to his heart's content breaks his glasses....
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Sinistar

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4793 on: January 30, 2015, 12:25:48 AM »
Yeah, I never felt super in CO.  I put together characters I thought would be fun, but they almost never were.  At best, they were pale imitations of my CoH characters.  My melee characters got easily knocked around the room like pinballs, my ranged characters felt underpowered and fragile (even more than Blasters at their worst), and my attempts at recreating my Controllers and Dominators were just weak Blasters with pets (due to the lack of non-Telepathy CC).  Only my attempt at my Bots/Storm MM felt playable.  (I actually liked him, but having so many characters on the screen slowed things down to a crawl on my old computer)

The game tries to hide how weak you are by making their Minions (I forget what CO calls them) even weaker in comparison, but as soon as you fight a Boss (Villain?) or higher, you start to feel the lack of power.

That said, I haven't even been able to run CO on my shiny new computer to see whether it can handle my Pseudo-Mastermind.  When I tried it, the Launcher opened fine, but when I clicked Play, the Launcher closed, and... that's it.  CO was on my Dock (so it was running), but the actual game window never opened.  I deleted and re-installed a few times, but it never helped.

So I trashed the whole thing and never looked back.  (That's still one of the biggest things I miss about CoH - it was Mac-compatible.  No kludges or workarounds.  If CO wants to win me over, a Mac client is the first thing Cryptic North can do)


Yeah CO characters are a joke compared to the powerhouses we could build in CoH
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

Arcana

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4794 on: January 30, 2015, 12:45:46 AM »
Yeah, I never felt super in CO.  I put together characters I thought would be fun, but they almost never were.  At best, they were pale imitations of my CoH characters.  My melee characters got easily knocked around the room like pinballs, my ranged characters felt underpowered and fragile (even more than Blasters at their worst), and my attempts at recreating my Controllers and Dominators were just weak Blasters with pets (due to the lack of non-Telepathy CC).  Only my attempt at my Bots/Storm MM felt playable.  (I actually liked him, but having so many characters on the screen slowed things down to a crawl on my old computer)

The game tries to hide how weak you are by making their Minions (I forget what CO calls them) even weaker in comparison, but as soon as you fight a Boss (Villain?) or higher, you start to feel the lack of power.

That said, I haven't even been able to run CO on my shiny new computer to see whether it can handle my Pseudo-Mastermind.  When I tried it, the Launcher opened fine, but when I clicked Play, the Launcher closed, and... that's it.  CO was on my Dock (so it was running), but the actual game window never opened.  I deleted and re-installed a few times, but it never helped.

So I trashed the whole thing and never looked back.  (That's still one of the biggest things I miss about CoH - it was Mac-compatible.  No kludges or workarounds.  If CO wants to win me over, a Mac client is the first thing Cryptic North can do)

Two things about CO compared to CoH.  First, Cryptic learned three lessons developing CoH they put into practice in CO.  One: avoid escalating returns in mechanics (vis-a-vis Defense and Resistance in CoH).  Two: Unrestricted AoE is bad.  Three: hard control is worse.  The power levels in CO are significantly lower than they are in CoH for the most part because of those three reasons.

Second, CO's power system framework is far less forgiving than CoH's.  In CoH, you could literally make a random build using dice and a dartboard, and it would be wonky and weird, but stand up to standard content reasonably well.  Players could build conceptually or cosmetically and still be playable.  In CO, that's really not true.  And CoH's enhancement system is far more transparent, and that's saying something because CoH's is unnecessarily cluttered with trivial and inconsequential detail (sometimes I wonder if the fact that Mathematical Proof salvage is a trivial non-entity that most people discard was a deliberate gag by Castle, but I believe he inherited the names of things).  CO's gear system makes CoH's gear system look like playing tic-tac-toe with only the X's.

If you are an MMO veteran that likes playing build-jockey, its not necessarily difficult to make powerful builds in CO.  But unless you basically straight-up copy someone else's ideas from the forums or think Excel is a past time, a non-veteran MMO player is only going to make very powerful CO build by accident.

Its in many ways a more balanced (in the player vs environment sense) and controlled environment than CoH ever was.  But its also, at least in my experience, a less rich and interesting superhero environment.  I think balance is important, but I think a superhero game needs wild and crazy more than balanced.  I firmly believe you can have both if you design carefully enough, but CoH and CO demonstrate what happens when you can only have one, and each has a different one.  I think the CoH experience is the better one.

LaughingAlex

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4795 on: January 30, 2015, 02:03:44 AM »
Two things about CO compared to CoH.  First, Cryptic learned three lessons developing CoH they put into practice in CO.  One: avoid escalating returns in mechanics (vis-a-vis Defense and Resistance in CoH).  Two: Unrestricted AoE is bad.  Three: hard control is worse.  The power levels in CO are significantly lower than they are in CoH for the most part because of those three reasons.

Second, CO's power system framework is far less forgiving than CoH's.  In CoH, you could literally make a random build using dice and a dartboard, and it would be wonky and weird, but stand up to standard content reasonably well.  Players could build conceptually or cosmetically and still be playable.  In CO, that's really not true.  And CoH's enhancement system is far more transparent, and that's saying something because CoH's is unnecessarily cluttered with trivial and inconsequential detail (sometimes I wonder if the fact that Mathematical Proof salvage is a trivial non-entity that most people discard was a deliberate gag by Castle, but I believe he inherited the names of things).  CO's gear system makes CoH's gear system look like playing tic-tac-toe with only the X's.

If you are an MMO veteran that likes playing build-jockey, its not necessarily difficult to make powerful builds in CO.  But unless you basically straight-up copy someone else's ideas from the forums or think Excel is a past time, a non-veteran MMO player is only going to make very powerful CO build by accident.

Its in many ways a more balanced (in the player vs environment sense) and controlled environment than CoH ever was.  But its also, at least in my experience, a less rich and interesting superhero environment.  I think balance is important, but I think a superhero game needs wild and crazy more than balanced.  I firmly believe you can have both if you design carefully enough, but CoH and CO demonstrate what happens when you can only have one, and each has a different one.  I think the CoH experience is the better one.

I think it's a stupid "lesson" to feel that hard control was bad, because it set them up to later make crowd control completely without any use, because they kind of had the attitude of a scrub mentality when many rpgs had hard control in them.  Just you needed to provide means to counter crowd control that was modestly available.  CO initially had solid cc but CC got nerfed so much in the hands of the player, while also buffed in the hands of mobs when players ignored cc resistance.

The, game was kind of setup to railroad players into only very specific builds for a number of the above reasons.  While the second lesson was fine, and the first was ok, the third one just made sure that crowd control was largely unneeded later, when pvp-scrubs would complain about cc in pvp.

Counters and counter-counters are good, but not providing that and just removing something instead removes depth, which is what scrubs want ultimately.  They also ended up going down that path of making everything generic with buff/debuff mechanics becoming weaker and weaker, which eventually lead to just damage/healing/durability we see today.  Everyone is either durable as superman, or as devastating as he can be, but never ever both, or just somewhere in between but ignored in some team situations.  But in one mission(the fire and ice rampage) likewise everyone needs "that healer" to keep them alive.  So we don't really have the true "super hero" experience, consequently. 

While city of heroes was kind of, well if what they say of fallout 1 and 2 is true, it was more a true super hero game as an mmorpg could also be truer to an rpg.  Your chosen power sets truely changed your strategy alot.  There is no difference in CO between fire, lightning or ice other than energy unlock mechanics and a couple other small differences.  In city of heroes energy blasts tendency to knock enemies back, electrical blasts tendency to drain endurance, and ice blasts tendency to slow movement severely and also it's actual crowd control abilities make those three sets function very differently than fire blast.  OR storm summoning was very, very different to force fields ect.

City of heroes could be better looked at in comparison to the x-men, it was a team-game that had a huge, wide array of abilities and it was more interesting to find out how a hero with "X powerset combination" would deal with a bunch of badguys vs a hero with "Y powerset combination", while CO is more like batman or superman, or even just superman, you know he'll win, but it's very very rarely a question of how, especially if the writer never includes kryptonite and lets superman just plow the badguy.  In fact, most CO gameplay is just plowing badguys with the same tactics at differing speeds, end a fight faster or end it slower but always at full health.

Edit: Or even slower and with less health because your chosen powers lead to both less dps and offense simply because they lack things like the critical energy unlock or just do less damage than other powers of the same types.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 02:10:56 AM by LaughingAlex »
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

Whatelse73

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4796 on: January 30, 2015, 04:07:37 AM »
I think it's a stupid "lesson" to feel that hard control was bad, because it set them up to later make crowd control completely without any use, because they kind of had the attitude of a scrub mentality when many rpgs had hard control in them.  Just you needed to provide means to counter crowd control that was modestly available.  CO initially had solid cc but CC got nerfed so much in the hands of the player, while also buffed in the hands of mobs when players ignored cc resistance.

........The, game was kind of setup to railroad players into only very specific builds for a number of the above reasons.  While the second lesson was fine, and the first was ok, the third one just made sure that crowd control was largely unneeded later, when pvp-scrubs would complain about cc in pvp.......


Execellently put Alex.  I think the variety of abilities and their results are a perfect reason why there are so many altoholics in CoX.  Along with the ease of team building in CoX, you got teamed up well and had such a variance of abilities that in most cases you could be quite effective.  (though I experienced plenty of wipes because of wrongly balanced teams, oh well, still fun to do and learn from it.)

The other point brought up would be the vast storyline, expansive set, and scenario of CoX vs Champions.  If CoX is Tolkien's Middle Earth, Champions is "a mile wide and about an inch thick."

The more recent function of Champions is just to get you to do "Alerts" all day long.  You get auto-teamed up, do instances for experience, resources, equipment, etc., finish the mission, exit out, queue for the next instance, rinse and repeat.  That's how you level to 40 now it seems.  After you finish all that, you gear up, team up and do end-game "instances".  Yes, they have similar functions in CoX, but the story is much more compelling and there are significant needs for certain archetypes for certain types of missions.

I have a lifetime with both CO and STO, so they are there if I feel the urge, but I paid a subscription to CoX non-stop because it was worth it.  (And it will be again)

Abraxus

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4797 on: January 30, 2015, 04:21:29 AM »
I used to wonder if my loyalty and love for CoH was due to the fact that it was my first MMO.  After playing three others long enough to see their shortcomings in comparison, I became comfortable with the fact that I was apparently just waiting for the right one to come along, and when it did, I played it from start to finish. 

That assertion is confirmed by all the comments I have read here from people who feel as I do.  I was right to feel that way, and it could not be back soon enough for me!
What was no more, is now reborn!

Whatelse73

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4798 on: January 30, 2015, 06:01:26 AM »
I used to wonder if my loyalty and love for CoH was due to the fact that it was my first MMO.  After playing three others long enough to see their shortcomings in comparison, I became comfortable with the fact that I was apparently just waiting for the right one to come along, and when it did, I played it from start to finish. 

That assertion is confirmed by all the comments I have read here from people who feel as I do.  I was right to feel that way, and it could not be back soon enough for me!

I'm right there with you.  It wasn't my first MMO, I did a couple text-based MUDs back in the 90s, DAoC (first graphic MMO for me), Asheron's call 1&2, then CoH came along in August 2004 and I even bought a brand new computer to play it.  Don't regret it for a minute.

I still play a few different ones depending on my mood.  SWTOR, CO, STO, LOTRO, RIFT, are what I have currently now.  Though 3 of the 5 are "free" because I have lifetimes for them.  If CoX came back (even as I23 with no improvements) I'd be back on it like a wet t-shirt.  Again, I might have the itch to play LOTRO or something else for a while, but if its there, it is there. 

Tough to say what I'd do if a City of Heroes 2 came out though, without seeing CoH 2 first.

Abraxus

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Re: And the mask comes off.
« Reply #4799 on: January 30, 2015, 02:23:13 PM »
I would try it to see if it is everything that the original was, plus the stuff we always hoped we could see someday.  For me, it would have to at least have the same "spirit", teaming dynamics, and even better power sets for me to say.  But, I would not leave CoH behind unless CoH 2 was a proper successor.  I strayed to CO because I thought that is what it was offering, which turned out not to be so.
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