Author Topic: MMO Company Standards Discussion  (Read 3906 times)

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
MMO Company Standards Discussion
« on: November 19, 2014, 12:28:02 AM »
As was brought up in the hail mary "new efforts" thread, a lot of game companies are indeed urinating off fans with business models that may not be the best for all parties involved to put it nicely.

I have had my share of rants on this topic as well and they always end with "well, no one here can do anything about it." and I don't believe I have ever stated a worthwhile business model but merely complained about aspects of current models.

This is not a complaint thread, this is a theoretical thread with the purpose to work out the most beneficial model. As in, if a model is "great enough" then it's worth spreading.

Without further ado, I'll add my two cents which people will probably have some big criticisms of but could be a starting block to get this moving.:

Introducing; contingency, by far one of the fairest models, but loathed by some, in a short statement it functions as "if what you make sells, then you get paid for the industry standard labor time necessary to create it" the biggest downside to this method is people  want steady pay, or want a salary of some sort defined in a contract before they begin so they are not under-compensated. The other downside is capitalists who will absorb any surplus that should normally be due the worker. The fix of course is moderation.

Why is contingency important to an MMO company? simple there will be down months and up months if there are down months and people are still paid full salaries there will be layoffs, which are worse than 'non-steady pay'.

How to translate this to an MMO company? not so simple;

How do we value what portion of work a person did for something sold as one object? hold polls on game content inside the game? "thankyou for playing the [story arch] please rate it" I think we would get some biased or unfair results or would miss an important part of the demographic who just wish to play and not be bothered rating or commenting on it.

let me get into the nitty-gritty

first we need to prioritize;

the servers costs and upkeep are priority Alpha, nothing comes before it:

In contingency this means if funds are only enough to cover the server then the server gets the money and everyone else gets nothing for that month.

If funds are insufficient to run the server then the server goes down for maintenance until the deficit is resolved. (careful on this, you always want to stay ahead,  basically the server's upkeep for the month and it's monthly wear and tare should always be funded in advance of it running, not the opposite where you run it and cover it from funds earned at the end of the month (you may have to do the later from the start if your MMO is new, but switch the model ASAP taking 2x the server costs for a month when first possible to flip it around).

Priority 1: debtors, should be self explanatory, they always need to be paid, if there are funds over the cost of the server costs prepare part of them to pay some of the debt above the interest rate.

Priority 2: surely we're paying the workers now right? half right, if there are funds after previous priorities this is where you cover their livelihood, funding their basic living expenses, cause you need living workers to make content.

Priority 3: Ok now we're paying the workers a profit right?  if there are still funds you are taking into account special situations in your workers households including family, children, transportation and debts (with-in valid assumable reason).

Priority 5: Paying the workers including the Administration as one worker each valuing their pay based on the difficulty and necessity of their labor time whilst keeping the rate from being obscene and generating a significant class divide (because that will make your workers hate you).

Priority 6: If there is still funds left over, they become capital not touchable without a business wide agreement on the usage and only for the company's own expansion (more servers, more developers/employees ETC.)

Priority Omega: the End, beyond the last priority; Liability. Stop we need an explanation;

The biggest fault of the current market is Liability being considered before everything else, businesses are so afraid of having their pants sued-off regardless of how many lawyers and precautions they hire/take that they amass huge amounts of Capital and horde it just in-case of a possible suit because Jimmy at computer 514 accidentally something+ed, aka the business need to address the issue in court, they will take the blame, Jimmy may loose his job if they really know it was him, but the company will foot the legal bill.

This is what I call paying people for causing trouble, it's indirect but Jimmy was paid for the work he did when he (Ex; Accidentally included adult imagery as a texture that he downloaded while working, instead of the one he was given to put there, Or Jimmy made a costume piece without comparing it to current heroes trademark appearances and marvel accidentally sued :P )

This also increases the threshold of payout for such cases, and increases the desire for one company to continue court proceedings unnecessarily to try and break competition.

Where as (the Marxist way) if the company claims no liability and hands jimmy to the courts, then the possible payout is less, the incentive to continue suits is less and the company does not have to amass large sums of money for the prospect of being sued. The whole thing comes down to "whose bad Idea was this? (check records)" (careful not to go with "who did it?", whose Idea it was is far more important, in business there are always patsies for stupid ideas)

In return for a company not gouging paychecks to store emergency funds, any natural disaster relief should be treated as all employee's (and admin's) responsibility to help cover by an equal percent or a rotating unequal percent if it doesn't divide evenly.

I think I covered it all, discuss?
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Power Gamer

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,865
  • Reaching troubled youth...one Hellion at a time!
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 01:02:49 AM »
Alot in your discussion, Joshex.  :o

Therefore I will touch on one item: Priority 5.

While it might be equitable to pay everyone the same regardless of skill set, it is not reasonable.
People are paid for what the job is worth, not what the person is worth.

So even though everyone at a company might be necessary, not everyone is compensated equally.

It has less to do with what is 'fair' and more to do with attracting and retaining highly-productive,
highly-skilled people in key positions.

This is good discussion!  ;D
It takes a village to raise a child. And it takes a villain to explain the value of lunch money.

-Random CoHer: "Why does the sky turn green during Rikti invasions?"
-Me:"Rikti Monkey farts"
-Random CoHer: "I'm going to you for all my questions from now on!"

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 01:08:21 PM »
Alot in your discussion, Joshex.  :o

Therefore I will touch on one item: Priority 5.

While it might be equitable to pay everyone the same regardless of skill set, it is not reasonable.
People are paid for what the job is worth, not what the person is worth.

So even though everyone at a company might be necessary, not everyone is compensated equally.

It has less to do with what is 'fair' and more to do with attracting and retaining highly-productive,
highly-skilled people in key positions.

This is good discussion!  ;D

Great input, indeed pay-rates do need to differ we can't be communist about this, however we shouldn't have the pay rates be too distant, for example some CEOs get the equivalent of 1000/hour where the workers get 13/hour (Mcdonnalds) this is why though people are paid different amounts it really shouldn't be over double the median paid wage.  regardless the pay rate should in fact be based on something otherwise it's all going to the top, capitalist fashion.

"valuing their pay based on the difficulty and necessity of their labor time" is the marxist method, indeed we need to change it because a lot of video games is art and marxist philosophy gives no special consideration for art though it covers paperwork and grunt work.

I suppose it's up to the company to rate how important art is based on their specific production, and how long it should/can take with-in reason to produce said art then value the pay based on that.


Another thing I forgot to include last night was,  the earning method;

Subscriptions - CoH tried it then the industry decided F2P was better and the players agreed.

F2P (Free to Play) - right now free to play with micro-pay options are the industry standard, however that has some major flaws like increased grinding (grind to death leveling), and terrible lock-boxes, and unbalanced PVP unless you do want to spend. It also spawns bots and gold/points selling spam. Also it has the potential to cause financial deficits if people just don't buy after a while (then the game dies).

Donations - I personally think this is the best model, it doesn't restrict the game-play (normal amounts of grinding, max out after 3 months of casual playing vs. 6 months to several years of grinding, it doesn't force pay items for progress, nor does it have pay items. if people want to play the game they need to donate, it's as simple as that, the model works to keep wikipedia active.

just adding that to the discussion.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Power Gamer

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,865
  • Reaching troubled youth...one Hellion at a time!
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 03:26:24 PM »
Digging a ditch is more 'difficult' than writing code, at least in the physical sense.

But that does not mean that the ditch digger should be paid more. The job is paid
based on the skill set and what the result is worth.

This is why CEOs get paid vastly more than front line workers.
The skill set required to be a CEO is valued more due to the result.

To aquire and retain people with the desired skills and abilities, you must compensate
them attractively.

Front line work is entry level. Its a starting point and gets paid like you would expect
a starting point.

CEO is NOT a starting point and requires quite a different skill set from front line work.
It takes a village to raise a child. And it takes a villain to explain the value of lunch money.

-Random CoHer: "Why does the sky turn green during Rikti invasions?"
-Me:"Rikti Monkey farts"
-Random CoHer: "I'm going to you for all my questions from now on!"

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2014, 07:59:58 PM »
What value do you bring and how much would it cost to find an equal replacement for you.

That is what reality brings to the table. Marxist are great while they have other people's money, the ones at the top don't make the chicken feed the other people do.

If I work cleaning the offices - I am valuable, I keep the place sanitary and disease free. However it is easier and cheaper to replace an office cleaner with one of equal value. The lead developer is a rare skillset to balance the gameplay and all the other things that go to make a title successful are very hard to find and they then make more money because of the rarity.

Which is more expensive Gold or Tin?

1 oz Credit Suisse Gold Bar (New w/ Assay)
 As low as: $1,213.05

1 pound of tin is $19.66 a bar.

Why - rarity and demand - gold in jewelry and other uses is more in demand and more rare. The same with staff with rare exceptions. I once had a foreman send me to an architech's office to pick up a blueprint. He said i am doing you a real favor, I asked why? He just laughed. I got to the office and the receptionist is drop dead gorgeous. She is an 11 on a 1 to 10 scale and extremely friendly and nice.

This girl was getting paid $90,000 a year because she brought in over $1,000,000 a year more in business since she had been there.

Rarity and demand. I have heard all the usual college drivel about equality and fairness - my mother always said life is not fair. Nor are peope equal. I am highly skilled in hand to hand fighting with just about any weapon including firearms. Others who have worked just as hard are not as good. I have certain skills that are mine and not universal.

This is reality and a good business pays you for what you return to them in service. The minimum wage is because low paying jobs are not meant to be life long. You are supposed to learn and improve - become more valuable over time. If you don't the fault is yours - you can party all weekend and drink your money up or you could take a class and become an asset. That is reality and not an ivory tower feel good stance from someone who may never have run a business in their life.

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 05:45:20 PM »
What value do you bring and how much would it cost to find an equal replacement for you.

That is what reality brings to the table. Marxist are great while they have other people's money, the ones at the top don't make the chicken feed the other people do.

If I work cleaning the offices - I am valuable, I keep the place sanitary and disease free. However it is easier and cheaper to replace an office cleaner with one of equal value. The lead developer is a rare skillset to balance the gameplay and all the other things that go to make a title successful are very hard to find and they then make more money because of the rarity.

Which is more expensive Gold or Tin?

1 oz Credit Suisse Gold Bar (New w/ Assay)
 As low as: $1,213.05

1 pound of tin is $19.66 a bar.

Why - rarity and demand - gold in jewelry and other uses is more in demand and more rare. The same with staff with rare exceptions. I once had a foreman send me to an architech's office to pick up a blueprint. He said i am doing you a real favor, I asked why? He just laughed. I got to the office and the receptionist is drop dead gorgeous. She is an 11 on a 1 to 10 scale and extremely friendly and nice.

This girl was getting paid $90,000 a year because she brought in over $1,000,000 a year more in business since she had been there.

Rarity and demand. I have heard all the usual college drivel about equality and fairness - my mother always said life is not fair. Nor are people equal. I am highly skilled in hand to hand fighting with just about any weapon including firearms. Others who have worked just as hard are not as good. I have certain skills that are mine and not universal.

This is reality and a good business pays you for what you return to them in service. The minimum wage is because low paying jobs are not meant to be life long. You are supposed to learn and improve - become more valuable over time. If you don't the fault is yours - you can party all weekend and drink your money up or you could take a class and become an asset. That is reality and not an ivory tower feel good stance from someone who may never have run a business in their life.

Indeed rarity, or supply and demand of labor needs to come into effect the same as rarity and supply and demand of products, it also needs to be per type, one type of programming for example is different than another, programming a window UI is different than scripting object motion. The problem with this is we'd need to list out all those orders and their value when compared to each other, of course people have been too lazy to do it with the whole market which is why certain skills are undervalued and others set their own value then demand large prices for their products. But there is no reason why we can't work it out for the few positions available at an MMO company.

The ability to request large amounts due to monopolization or forced compliance by fads or laws is a growing fad even in games;

Ex: rant on the hobbit 2003
Spoiler for Hidden:
a game maker makes a terrible game, (The hobbit 2003) he's already got famous help ( associated with Tolkien enterprises) so he can publish it, even being a terrible game he's still going to get over 100,000 sales due to people trying it and others not believing reviews when they talk about how bad it is and buying it. Considering that $1 is packaging/shipping, 1$ is the disk, $1 is the information booklet and cover, maybe $3 per unit is wages for the package image designers and instruction manual designers, provided they aren't the game designer himself or his wife. The publisher will make 60% of $50 per purchase ($30) at 100k sales is 3 million (so they will ignore comments saying the game is bad, cause to them it's worth 3 mil.), leaving 20-6=14 which means the developer of a absolute piece of fodder stands to make 1.4 million and will probably go on to make more fodder till he's satisfied.

back onto topic, next we need to discuss replacement, how easy is it to replace someone?

A CEO describes the business's direction (as we are doing right now), and passes on this direction to Task Mast- er I mean Regional Manager who makes sure the slaves- er I mean the people with development knowledge follow it when doing their jobs.

Mel brooks' - history of the world part I - at the unemployment office in ancient rome: lady "occupation?" brooks "stand up philosopher!" lady "oh! a bullshit artist!, did you bullshit last week?" brooks "no" lady "did you try to bullshit last week?" brooks "yes".

right now we are engaging in philosophy and other theoretical frameworks, the same exact ones a CEO deals with. I don't find this challenging, neither do you I'm sure, this is a relative discussion where we are trying to form a common framework for something.

in game dev this is the scrum process and is not regarded as a heavily worthy effort though mandatory as all people involved are paid different salaries based on the actual work they do and not really praised on the theoretical philosophies they develop for the game's creation.

In the same manner the company executive owner really isn't that hard to replace, the hardness of replacing them comes in the catch 22 associated with their position of power in the company "you can't fire them, only they can fire themselves". [insert smoky the bear joke]

cleaning staff are a given, they can be replaced easily but may amass worth if they are actually reliable, which can be hard to find!

repair staff are actually engineers, remember that they have to possess a certain level of the physical sciences to do their job, the more they know the better they do. Sometimes it's difficult to find a replacement electrician that lives up to the record of the previous one.

Stop; I just realized it's not only how easily they can be replaced or the difficulty of their work, but also physical danger. and electrician stands to possibly run into unforeseen faults leading in serious damage to himself. even good electricians die because of failed cooperation from others Ex; eletrician turns off a curcuit to work on something, game developer gets cold cause the same curcuit runs the heater, they go and flip it on. the electrician doesn't expect it though there is a note about it and he told everyone before he started. the end+lawsuit.

A CEO is not going to die from a paper-cut or thinking too hard, he may develop some form of depression or boredom and that needs to be addressed too, but physical danger is worth more payout than suicidal danger unless the physical damage is due to stupidity, but if it's due to being tired after working a long day then it's worth the normal amount.

/\ that statement brings forth very hard to record and enforce payment conditions, just how do we determine if someone was stupid or tired? word of mouth? of course everyone is always tired then. pointing out the flaw of being too responsive to ethics, but that's usually for courts anyways not business policy.

I suppose a nice business would pay risky jobs more ahead of time, but that borders on racketeering, if the worker ever becomes spotlighted like a celebrity worker videotaped for his incredible work where he hurts/might hurt himself then it becomes a serious federal level offense ( professional sports?).

Even stress requires some extra compensation. a programmer for example might endure physical stress from leaning over a keyboard for 16 hours, or emotional stress from having no "self time", or might develop serious health problems from poor dietary habits trying to get that code out before the deadline. besides that fact a programmer is a core member of the company.

Bill Gates couldn't have made windows without his programmers, he would have been a failed business man. Programmer is probably the highest pay position in an MMO company in all the aspects; creative, philosophical, stress, danger not because it's the highest in each category but because it includes all the risk categories above a moderate to high level and nothing else can happen without them.

I think a programmer should be paid more than a CEO, especially seeing as programmers are hard to find/replace, even an expert programmer replacing another expert would be difficult because there might be pages and pages of code to review before going forwards and even then they might not fully understand the importance of what the other programmer left behind and might omit updating some good features.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Taceus Jiwede

  • Time Traveler
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 978
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2014, 05:52:17 AM »
And in this episode of Joshex's Crazy Adventures!

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2014, 11:27:26 AM »
And in this episode of Joshex's Crazy Adventures!

Heh the book I wrote in middles school which has since changed it's title and gotten a lot more interesting "The Adventures of Joshex" just need time to update it.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

mikenovember

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 09:38:35 PM »
What value do you bring and how much would it cost to find an equal replacement for you.

That is what reality brings to the table. Marxist are great while they have other people's money, the ones at the top don't make the chicken feed the other people do.

If I work cleaning the offices - I am valuable, I keep the place sanitary and disease free. However it is easier and cheaper to replace an office cleaner with one of equal value. The lead developer is a rare skillset to balance the gameplay and all the other things that go to make a title successful are very hard to find and they then make more money because of the rarity.

Which is more expensive Gold or Tin?

1 oz Credit Suisse Gold Bar (New w/ Assay)
 As low as: $1,213.05

1 pound of tin is $19.66 a bar.

Why - rarity and demand - gold in jewelry and other uses is more in demand and more rare. The same with staff with rare exceptions. I once had a foreman send me to an architech's office to pick up a blueprint. He said i am doing you a real favor, I asked why? He just laughed. I got to the office and the receptionist is drop dead gorgeous. She is an 11 on a 1 to 10 scale and extremely friendly and nice.

This girl was getting paid $90,000 a year because she brought in over $1,000,000 a year more in business since she had been there.

Rarity and demand. I have heard all the usual college drivel about equality and fairness - my mother always said life is not fair. Nor are peope equal. I am highly skilled in hand to hand fighting with just about any weapon including firearms. Others who have worked just as hard are not as good. I have certain skills that are mine and not universal.

This is reality and a good business pays you for what you return to them in service. The minimum wage is because low paying jobs are not meant to be life long. You are supposed to learn and improve - become more valuable over time. If you don't the fault is yours - you can party all weekend and drink your money up or you could take a class and become an asset. That is reality and not an ivory tower feel good stance from someone who may never have run a business in their life.

Where over all I tend to agree with some of your statements there are some large assumptive fallacies mixed in with them as you've presented them as well. 

For one thing, the assumption that merely working hard, getting good grades, not partying or drinking will make you an asset and assure a level of value to a company.  Where that's true to some extent the greater truth is that there's now several thousand people out there, that are doing, or have already done the same - so your 'asset' valuation is essentially reduced to nothing.  This is in keeping with your description of tin and gold, only you're neglecting to mention that gold is now as valuable tin because we're knee deep in gold, and we still have tons of tin out there. 

The fact is, if you're an engineer - I can get a dozen of you overseas for 1/5th of what I can here.  I can also do so without having to pay any pesky insurance or benefits and I can dump them when my project is over.  You might encourage someone to take and learn a trade job, but, alas, there is little or no manufacturing done in most of America so good luck with finding a steady income that isn't service related.  (i.e., plumber, electrician, mechanic)  Most of those trade / service related jobs require apprenticeships and or union affiliations which are filled to the brim with people, and getting into one is not just a question of rolling up your sleeves and being willing to work hard.

In addition, while you're rolling up your sleeves and working hard,  you still have to pay your bills - or at least almost pay your bills.  Which means you need to work doubly hard at two or more jobs and so, no you will not most likely have time to just study and get out of your current area.  You won't have the time, and you certainly won't have the money.  Education my friend is expensive.  So it's two minimum wage jobs and a student loan you will probably never pay off.  That, is reality for most people.The over all assumption that merely providing reductions to the blockages for small to medium businesses to hire has proven time and time again to be flawed as they have without exception, not turned profits gained from impetus funding and tax relief into expanding operations here because -- there's no market for them.  See, without a manufacturing base to provide them expanding their own manufacturing base here when product can be manufactured overseas makes no sense.  Even farming here in a America, is now often a situation where farming co-ops receive breaks and take the funds to buy up crop lands and produce in south America and ship the goods here. 

The wages paid to someone, need for the individual, to be at least of value to support their existence.  The model that a minimum wage job will allow to work until you find something better - only works if there is something better.  And there's not.  Seriously.  Look at the jobs available above the minimum wage.  Who are the largest employers?  There is no manufacturing base here, and without a manufacturing base - the need for service level jobs supporting it is nil.  Of those, most can be done overseas anyway and so... do the math.  There are no jobs. 

The concept that a really smart guy or gal who applies themselves can create a new gizmo or business, is also flawed.  The fact is most - and by most - I mean only one out of three - businesses will fail in their first year.  So the vast majority of people, are not going to be able to succeed with that model either.  Pluck and luck will get you only so far.  Businesses will not pay.  Not if they want to survive. 

The truth is, a good business will almost never pay you what it can.  If it did, it wouldn't be much of a business now would it?  Its a business.  It pays the lowest amount for what the market for that job will support.  That's reality.  It's not a nice reality but it is reality.  Now, the problem with that reality is that in a global economy with everything quickly tying to everything else ... the lowest amount that the market will bear, is often not what you, as an individual will be able to survive on and thrive.

I have had my own business, and sadly I could rarely pay what my employees were worth.  In point of fact, had I been a 'good business' I'd still be doing that, it was a ton of fun.  But it wasn't profitable if you wanted to sleep at night.  I have made a good living working for large corporate concerns all over - and I'll tell you one thing... not a one of them (even the ones that say they 'do no evil') cares a squat beyond the PR value of maintaining an employee here, over one elsewhere at 1/5th the price.  As the saying goes, they have no 'skin in the game', no legitimate reason to adhere to a model where paying someone a living wage is of a particular value to them. 

That, is unfortunately, the fallacy I find with the model that if we all just work hard enough... we can do more.  It's incredibly short sighted and has no factual basis in the current world environment.  It reflects a fail to comprehend the current world, and assumes we are still in a world that existed 20 years or more ago before the full onset of globalization.  The real reality is, the world is changed.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 10:06:57 PM by mikenovember »

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2014, 09:17:52 PM »
Spoiler for Hidden:
Where over all I tend to agree with some of your statements there are some large assumptive fallacies mixed in with them as you've presented them as well. 

For one thing, the assumption that merely working hard, getting good grades, not partying or drinking will make you an asset and assure a level of value to a company.  Where that's true to some extent the greater truth is that there's now several thousand people out there, that are doing, or have already done the same - so your 'asset' valuation is essentially reduced to nothing.  This is in keeping with your description of tin and gold, only you're neglecting to mention that gold is now as valuable tin because we're knee deep in gold, and we still have tons of tin out there. 

The fact is, if you're an engineer - I can get a dozen of you overseas for 1/5th of what I can here.  I can also do so without having to pay any pesky insurance or benefits and I can dump them when my project is over.  You might encourage someone to take and learn a trade job, but, alas, there is little or no manufacturing done in most of America so good luck with finding a steady income that isn't service related.  (i.e., plumber, electrician, mechanic)  Most of those trade / service related jobs require apprenticeships and or union affiliations which are filled to the brim with people, and getting into one is not just a question of rolling up your sleeves and being willing to work hard.

In addition, while you're rolling up your sleeves and working hard,  you still have to pay your bills - or at least almost pay your bills.  Which means you need to work doubly hard at two or more jobs and so, no you will not most likely have time to just study and get out of your current area.  You won't have the time, and you certainly won't have the money.  Education my friend is expensive.  So it's two minimum wage jobs and a student loan you will probably never pay off.  That, is reality for most people.The over all assumption that merely providing reductions to the blockages for small to medium businesses to hire has proven time and time again to be flawed as they have without exception, not turned profits gained from impetus funding and tax relief into expanding operations here because -- there's no market for them.  See, without a manufacturing base to provide them expanding their own manufacturing base here when product can be manufactured overseas makes no sense.  Even farming here in a America, is now often a situation where farming co-ops receive breaks and take the funds to buy up crop lands and produce in south America and ship the goods here. 

The wages paid to someone, need for the individual, to be at least of value to support their existence.  The model that a minimum wage job will allow to work until you find something better - only works if there is something better.  And there's not.  Seriously.  Look at the jobs available above the minimum wage.  Who are the largest employers?  There is no manufacturing base here, and without a manufacturing base - the need for service level jobs supporting it is nil.  Of those, most can be done overseas anyway and so... do the math.  There are no jobs. 

The concept that a really smart guy or gal who applies themselves can create a new gizmo or business, is also flawed.  The fact is most - and by most - I mean only one out of three - businesses will fail in their first year.  So the vast majority of people, are not going to be able to succeed with that model either.  Pluck and luck will get you only so far.  Businesses will not pay.  Not if they want to survive. 

The truth is, a good business will almost never pay you what it can.  If it did, it wouldn't be much of a business now would it?  Its a business.  It pays the lowest amount for what the market for that job will support.  That's reality.  It's not a nice reality but it is reality.  Now, the problem with that reality is that in a global economy with everything quickly tying to everything else ... the lowest amount that the market will bear, is often not what you, as an individual will be able to survive on and thrive.

I have had my own business, and sadly I could rarely pay what my employees were worth.  In point of fact, had I been a 'good business' I'd still be doing that, it was a ton of fun.  But it wasn't profitable if you wanted to sleep at night.  I have made a good living working for large corporate concerns all over - and I'll tell you one thing... not a one of them (even the ones that say they 'do no evil') cares a squat beyond the PR value of maintaining an employee here, over one elsewhere at 1/5th the price.  As the saying goes, they have no 'skin in the game', no legitimate reason to adhere to a model where paying someone a living wage is of a particular value to them. 

That, is unfortunately, the fallacy I find with the model that if we all just work hard enough... we can do more.  It's incredibly short sighted and has no factual basis in the current world environment.  It reflects a fail to comprehend the current world, and assumes we are still in a world that existed 20 years or more ago before the full onset of globalization.  The real reality is, the world is changed.

that's getting into the market as a whole, I agree, in the market as a whole there is a lot of abuse by both parties, however capitalism is such a two headed monster, there's no avoiding it, some workers steal, do a shotty job and slack-off, people even indirectly die because of it, on the other hand a capitalist abuses the system by in effect stealing the surplus from the profits of the labor of the hired staff and spending it on quadrillion screws/light-bulbs etc. so the company can balance at 0 profit so they don't have to pay stock holders at the end of the month, and yes people even die because of that indirectly. Not to mention it's a waste because the money is being spent on something that wont be used in a million years, which is a loss.

not all workers are like that and not all companies are like that, but they do exist and sometimes distinguishing them can be hard.

However I speak about this in a very general sense because I want to keep this thread oriented towards MMO companies, in MMO companies there are no farmers or engineers lest the company have a headquarters, at which point you'll have cleaning staff and maintenance staff such as electricians and plumbers, as well as cafeteria staff (maybe).

now while those workers do need to make a living, how do we value their work? if we valued it based on their work on the game or the importance to the game's development they would get miniscule salaries somewhere just over minimum wage. Where as if you value them on the market as a whole their trades are rather important to the survival of the human race. however if you follow that thinking enough you eventually come to the olde landlord system where people who own land are overlords of everyone else and the cost of food gets obscene and other things like games have no right to make what they do, though they fullfill the human desire of entertainment.

entertainment is one of the big ones that man needs to survive. if he can't get it, he'll make his own though, and sometimes that ends in disaster.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Shenku

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 388
Re: MMO Company Standards Discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2014, 05:04:44 AM »
on the other hand a capitalist abuses the system by in effect stealing the surplus from the profits of the labor of the hired staff and spending it on quadrillion screws/light-bulbs etc. so the company can balance at 0 profit so they don't have to pay stock holders at the end of the month, and yes people even die because of that indirectly. Not to mention it's a waste because the money is being spent on something that wont be used in a million years, which is a loss.

Umm... Granted I don't really pay attention to business news, and have no experience with such corporate matters, but that sounds like the kind of horrible business sense that would get CEOs fired really quickly...

Screwing stock holders out of money discourages them and potential investors from investing into the company, and no new investors/investments means less growth, which in turn means less profit, which leads to overall decline in company stock value, and possibly to a worst case scenario of the stock price crashing... This is not remotely "capitalism", it's just poor business sense.

Besides, no company would waste money on something just to claim zero profit, any money spent is almost always done so for some kind of return, be it tax breaks or otherwise.

But again, I don't really pay too close attention to these things, so my knowledge and experience on these matters is limited, but to the best of my knowledge, what you say would/should never be the case with any large company...