Ridiculous Question

[MWRuger]

To prevent another PR issue, I'd imagine.  CoH fans are more likely to stay quiet and wait if we think negotiations are ongoing.

There's not many of us compared to some other games, granted, but we're loud, and we have plenty of free time now that Our Game is gone.

Corporations tend to think on the impact to the bottom line and I think there are just not enough of us to be effective, no matter how loud we are. I doubt that many of the people who are ardent in this cause are not already passing on NCSoft offerings. So how are we going to hurt them further?

It's really frustrating, but there are fewer of us now then there were 1 1/2 years ago and there will be fewer every week. Think about the leaders who stepped up to head Task Force Hail Mary. How many are still active in this cause?

And I'm not talking about players who might come back, but people whose passion can be engaged beyond complaining about it on Facebook. While that is also a diminishing number it is far greater than the number of people who are willing to get involved.

We have been asked not to do anything and told that if there was something we could do, we would know. Until that changes or the deal fails, we should do that.

Even if it failed, I would recommend doing very little beyond going on to the next interested party and putting our support there.

[Surelle]

That's convolutedly illogical.  If NCSoft wanted us to go away, the absolute best, most obvious way to do that would have been for NCSoft to tell the negotiating team they had destroyed all copies of the server software and source code as part of the shutdown.  Period, end of story, go away now.  That's what I would have recommended, if it was my job to make the CoH playerbase go away.  And I would have done it right from the start.

If they want to avoid a PR disaster, the best way to do that is to have no story at all.  By propagating a fake negotiation, they are creating a story where none existed.  Once you start ascribing that level of stupid to NCSoft, you have to assume its also possible the negotiations are taking a lot longer than you expect because NCSoft keeps forgetting how to communicate in English and has to relearn the language with a Rosetta Stone refresher course.

Perhaps at least one Management person from NCSoft was formerly willing to mull it over a tiny bit *before* the Nexon takeover threat began, and *before* Netmarble and NCSoft subsequently had to exchange $635 million worth of stocks, but now things have completely stalled in the last few months since.  All Nate, that NCSoft Management person and we can do is wait it out until the dust settles.

However, they alternatively may have been hoping we'd eventually go away if they strung us along for an inordinate amount of time, though.  Perhaps they feared that saying outright "No" to Nate or changing their story yet again two years after the shuttering ("Oh, hey, we forgot to mention when all those other people tried to buy CoX that we destroyed all the server backups, silly us") would just whip up another storm of dissent in the press.

And I thought the deal has always been that there was no source code, hence the zombie mode i23 backup snapshot without the chance to ever modify, patch or add to the original CoX.  Maybe that *was* their attempt to put Nate & Crew off, it just didn't work.   

[TonyV]

If NCSoft wanted us to go away, the absolute best, most obvious way to do that would have been for NCSoft to tell the negotiating team they had destroyed all copies of the server software and source code as part of the shutdown.

They can't do that precisely for the same reason they're not letting go of the IP: Because on some accounting sheet somewhere, it's listed as a line item as an asset that has some particular value that, in theory, makes the company worth more.  If they went telling someone that they've effectively destroyed the asset, they wouldn't be able to claim it on their balance sheets.

(Incidentally, I believe that they also have everyone's user data stored somewhere for similar purpose; because that is an asset with value.)

[duane]

I don't think Nate's lying to us, I think NCSoft are stringing him along too.

Well!  You're not gonna get an invite to the ITF with that attitude, mister!  (Please don't take offense, I am just joking)

I don't think Nate's dumb.... if X months goes by and they don't return his call he will keep his word and tell us it's dead.   It could be a year.  I'm fine, it's not my $ on the line.  I cannot imagine the price of his phone bill calling over the world for us. 

With that said all we have is Nate.  I don't know him, but I believe Titan Networks and all involved vetted him as legit.  He will tell us when it's dead and until then I will keep giving him my faith.

As for NCsoft, I think no one can read into anything about their business practice and how they look at this deal.  My only opinion is they are chasing the next "big thing" and customers are just an inconvenience to your money....and can be thrown away (in bulk) because there are always more.

[Floride]

NCSoft made me cry. For that they will never see another dime from me.
But a community organized boycott won't get NCSoft to suddenly regret hurting people and make public apologies and bring the game back online.
Remember CoH was making profit when they killed. If CoHs net profit was such an insignificant amount that it wouldn't be missed, then a boycott will need to hurt NCSofts profits at least 2x/3x the yearly net profits of CoH to even register to them as anything more than an amusing glitch.
Not worth the effort IMHO

[Arcana]

They can't do that precisely for the same reason they're not letting go of the IP: Because on some accounting sheet somewhere, it's listed as a line item as an asset that has some particular value that, in theory, makes the company worth more.  If they went telling someone that they've effectively destroyed the asset, they wouldn't be able to claim it on their balance sheets.

(Incidentally, I believe that they also have everyone's user data stored somewhere for similar purpose; because that is an asset with value.)

That too would be ascribing cosmic levels of stupidity to the company.  It seems superficially reasonable to guess that NCSoft might have done that, but the fact is NCSoft would have been leaving money on the table, so to speak.  When they shut down both Paragon Studios and the game, they had an opportunity to accelerate depreciation of all of the hardware and software to zero, which in effect would make them money on the books.  Under no circumstances would you try to keep the game servers around as a tangible asset.  That isn't just stupid, that's accounting malfeasance against your own company.

Keep in mind the Intellectual Property of the game hypothetically has value.  The source code might have value - they could license it to someone.  But the actual server instances had and have no material accounting value.  NCSoft could easily have claimed they have source code repositories, but no actual working server instances and lacked the tools to create them from the source code.  In fact, from what I know of server instances, its trivially easy to hand someone all the source code in its entirety and still leave them functionally incapable of standing up servers in any reasonable amount of time.

To make a server, you need the programs that comes from the source code.  But you also need the databases that ran the game, that have to be configured in just the right way with just the right schema and just the right seed data (like all database-driven applications).  You need configuration files to make the programs do what you need.  You need hardware and software infrastructure of a specific configuration.  You need the server-side data of things like powers and critters and missions and maps - the server side version of what we have in the client-side piggs.  Without all of those things specifically configured and version-synchronized, you don't have a functioning game.  A backup of a server instance would give a prospective buyer a quick-start ability to stand up a new CoH server.  But if all you had were Castle's spreadsheets and the server source code and that's it?  Maybe someone like Codewalker could eventually cobble a server together under those circumstances, after an extremely long period of time, maybe, to reverse engineer all of the rest of the infrastructure and tools.  But you are talking about a Herculean level of effort.

Separately, the source code itself would have extremely limited value on paper.  Who would buy it?  Only crazy people like CoH fans that wanted to restart the game in theory would place any value on it.  In industry terms, that code is basically worthless.  Trying to value it significantly on the books would probably not survive meaningful audit.  It would be far safer to value the CoH server software at zero because that could be rationally justified, rather than some arbitrary significant number that would be difficult to justify.  Especially because there is a perfectly legal process for selling something that you had depreciated to zero in good faith (through a simple accounting adjustment).

But it would still be easy for NCSoft to say that all they had were source code repositories and they couldn't let anyone have them, and they didn't know how to create a viable server instance with that so they couldn't give one away, so long, thanks for all the fish.

[Abraxus]

It is really hard to read doom and gloom (otherwise known in business circles as reality) every time I come here.  I know it has been said before, but it is just as true now as the first time it was mentioned.

Essentially, what I get out of this is that there is no REAL incentive for them to do this, and IF it ever happens it will be only because they got tired of the untiring efforts (read:persistence) of Nate, and the community he represents, and only then after our patience has been pushed to the point of breaking while waiting.

Sorry, but sometimes the darkness creeps in, and then again, sometimes it comes rushing in like a tidal wave!

[Arcana]

It is really hard to read doom and gloom (otherwise known in business circles as reality) every time I come here.  I know it has been said before, but it is just as true now as the first time it was mentioned.

Essentially, what I get out of this is that there is no REAL incentive for them to do this, and IF it ever happens it will be only because they got tired of the untiring efforts (read:persistence) of Nate, and the community he represents, and only then after our patience has been pushed to the point of breaking while waiting.

Sorry, but sometimes the darkness creeps in, and then again, sometimes it comes rushing in like a tidal wave!

There's no real business incentive I can think of for why NCSoft should sell the IP, unless they think they can get a reasonable price for it and there's no significant downside to the transaction.  However, there's also no credible reason I can think of for why they would talk to any suitors for the property unless they were at least considering the sale in the first place, because no theory that suggests its a good idea to string the players along this much time after shutdown makes any sort of sense at all.

Unfortunately, I think things simply are what they appear to be, for good and bad, and theories about why they might not be I don't find to be more than highly improbable.  Its easy to fill the absence of information with speculation, but speculation driven by logic absent information always seems more reasonable than it eventually turns out to be. 

The fact that we haven't been told anything recently is not a data point.  Absence of observation is not an observation of absence.

[TonyV]

Keep in mind the Intellectual Property of the game hypothetically has value.  The source code might have value - they could license it to someone.  But the actual server instances had and have no material accounting value.  NCSoft could easily have claimed they have source code repositories, but no actual working server instances and lacked the tools to create them from the source code.  In fact, from what I know of server instances, its trivially easy to hand someone all the source code in its entirety and still leave them functionally incapable of standing up servers in any reasonable amount of time.

I wasn't talking about the physical server instances that were running; I was referring to the code.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.  If NCsoft tells one group that the code is impossible to get back up and running but then claims it as having value in a list of company assets, it will be painfully obvious that they're lying to either one or the other.  Best case scenario, it makes them look like idiots when it comes out that they told someone that they didn't have the code in any workable state when in fact they did.  Worst case scenario, a future investor takes them at their word and accuses them of cooking the books to make the company look better.

Either way, the truth of the matter is that they do have the source code, and after seeing what amazing feats various hackers have accomplished over the years in various reverse engineering efforts, it is not only possible to get a real server instance running, but with the motivation that there would be to do so, highly likely to do so in relatively short order given the right team.

And yes, that means that if NCsoft ever were to claim that they don't have the source code or user database, that they deleted it all, I would immediately accuse them of lying because I simply wouldn't believe them.  That would be like, I dunno, Pepsi claiming that they deleted the formula to make Mountain Dew.  My reaction would be, "Yeah, right."

[Todogut]

That's convolutedly illogical.

Yes, as Leonard Nimoy used to say, illogical. However, it is consistent with NCSoft's prior behavior, which can be described as seemingly convoluted and illogical.

After the game shut down, Matt Miller related that Paragon Studios had been in discussions with NCSoft about allowing the studio to go independent and keep the game running... he indicated negotiations were ongoing almost to the very end... only one more signature was needed... things looked like they would work out... right up until they didn't.

Why did NCSoft do that? Why wouldn't they instead say, "No. The decision has been made, and it stands."

We've discussed the reasons over the ensuing years, including:

- The Korean cultural concept of kibun, which seems somewhat related to the multi-cultural concept of saving face. Negotiating with Paragon Studios--and later Nate Downes' group--was a way for NCSoft to show respect for the other party without committing to (or necessarily having any real intention of) agreement.

- NCSoft is a huge corporation with many different parts. People in different parts of the corporation don't necessarily know what's going on throughout NCSoft, they're just handling their immediate responsibilities.

Hence, when Nate approached NCSoft "like another Korean company" with a proper introduction, the contact person referred Nate to a part of the corporation that handles such requests. There, Nate's group was entered into a program, and their request is being processed ... and that's where they've been for many months (as far as we know).

It doesn't mean the key decision-makers at NCSoft intend to approve (or are even aware of) the deal. The longer the "negotiations" go on, the more it looks like NCSoft is just stringing along the request as a way to maintain business relations and avoid embarrassing either party.

[silvers1]

It doesn't mean the key decision-makers at NCSoft intend to approve (or are even aware of) the deal. The longer the "negotiations" go on, the more it looks like NCSoft is just stringing along the request as a way to maintain business relations and avoid embarrassing either party.

Yeah, the longer this goes on, the bleaker it looks for any actual deal to go through.  Personally, I'd prefer a fallback position of just buying the IP - so that APR can continue with the rewrite.

[robo40]

"the company that made it clear in no uncertain terms that it prioritizes some nebulous long-term business strategy over a profitable game and dedicated community"

Love it.

[Vee]

i don't know squat about business but it occurs to me that there's a bit of collective cognitive dissonance going on here between the belief that nc soft is a huge company that doesn't really care about such a small transaction and the belief that the negotiations should have been done by now. those two beliefs don't really seem to mesh well.

i'm choosing to believe that the negotiations are ongoing and progressing until i hear otherwise, but that the people nate and company are negotiating with have a lot of other things on their plate as well. meanwhile i'll keep MIDSing.

[HEATSTROKE]

i

i'm choosing to believe that the negotiations are ongoing and progressing until i hear otherwise, but that the people nate and company are negotiating with have a lot of other things on their plate as well. meanwhile i'll keep MIDSing.

THIS !!!

[Angel Phoenix77]

i don't know squat about business but it occurs to me that there's a bit of collective cognitive dissonance going on here between the belief that nc soft is a huge company that doesn't really care about such a small transaction and the belief that the negotiations should have been done by now. those two beliefs don't really seem to mesh well.

i'm choosing to believe that the negotiations are ongoing and progressing until i hear otherwise, but that the people nate and company are negotiating with have a lot of other things on their plate as well. meanwhile i'll keep MIDSing.

      I agree, I understand how some people are starting to doubt our game will ever return. However, I like Vee choose to believe talks are on going, maybe not as fast as we would all like. But I have to think it still going. We have to remember the team has to play by NcSoft's rules which are based on Korean laws. There is a saying "slow and steady wins the race."
     Do I think the reason the team is not talking is because of an NDA, yes. Before the Sept. post by Nate some of the now known team has made posts, now it is like the rug has been pulled out from under us; I get that. I think we just need to give Nate, the team, and Ncsoft time to hash the agreement out. And unfortunately negativity would only hamper the sell, not increase the time to our game to be bought. 

[Brigadine]

Yeah, the longer this goes on, the bleaker it looks for any actual deal to go through.  Personally, I'd prefer a fallback position of just buying the IP - so that APR can continue with the rewrite.

I just hope Nate has the brass to tell us all is lost so we don't end up 5 years from now with no news. Do not be a cruel tease.

[MaxEternal]

      I agree, I understand how some people are starting to doubt our game will ever return. However, I like Vee choose to believe talks are on going, maybe not as fast as we would all like. But I have to think it still going. We have to remember the team has to play by NcSoft's rules which are based on Korean laws. There is a saying "slow and steady wins the race."
     Do I think the reason the team is not talking is because of an NDA, yes. Before the Sept. post by Nate some of the now known team has made posts, now it is like the rug has been pulled out from under us; I get that. I think we just need to give Nate, the team, and Ncsoft time to hash the agreement out. And unfortunately negativity would only hamper the sell, not increase the time to our game to be bought.

Nate has given some subtle hints as well.  Did you see the unofficial "Phew" comment on FB the other day?  That seems to indicate that he was glad there was not a hostile takeover of the current NCSoft management team... you can draw your own conclusions from that if you like... or not.

[Burnt Toast]

If the negotiations fall through it will be posted. If they fail...that will not be the last time a purchase attempt is made.

I just hope Nate has the brass to tell us all is lost so we don't end up 5 years from now with no news. Do not be a cruel tease.

[Angel Phoenix77]

Nate has given some subtle hints as well.  Did you see the unofficial "Phew" comment on FB the other day?  That seems to indicate that he was glad there was not a hostile takeover of the current NCSoft management team... you can draw your own conclusions from that if you like... or not.

I know, I was just going with the "official" saying. Yea I caught his comment on FB. Don't get me wrong, I really believe that the team and Nate will be successful. 

[Arcana]

If NCsoft tells one group that the code is impossible to get back up and running but then claims it as having value in a list of company assets, it will be painfully obvious that they're lying to either one or the other.

I'm afraid this is simply incorrect.  The intellectual property value of the source code to the game engine has nothing to do with whether it is even compilable.  For example, if NCSoft was licensing that code to someone else there would be a revenue stream attached to that source code even if NCSoft no longer had a viable copy of it.  At one point Cryptic was licensing the engine to NCSoft, and that means that source code had material value even if Cryptic itself lost its own copies of it.

And as a matter of objective fact, if *all* you had was the source code itself, it would be *impossible* to bring the game back up.  As I said in the previous post, there's a very specific inventory of stuff you need to get the game servers running again, and either the source code or the compiled executables are just one of those things.  And because its possible none of the people who ever got a server running from scratch were NCSoft employees other than the Paragon staff, its also possible exactly no one at NCSoft would even know what those things were, unless they had an exact copy of a server shard to go off of.