Well, they definitely didn't see it coming....

[void hunter]

While looking up info about Paragon's studio (BTW their studio is 13,650 sq ft and they pay $18/yr for their lease I mention this because it actually lends to the argument that they may have been doing better financially.) I came across this....

http://www.gameguzzler.com/companies/paragon

I know it's been said that they were taken by surpise by all of this, but according to this site, they were even hiring on for more people as of the 21st of August, just 10 days before they had their legs taken out from under them. Kind of interesting to read the job titles.

[Roderick]

their studio is 13,650 sq ft and they pay $18/yr for their lease

Typo? If not, I want to know who their landlord is.

[downix]

Typo? If not, I want to know who their landlord is.

$18/year per sq foot is pretty average for the area.

[dwturducken]

Personally, I wonder if you're not a troll, but I'm going to continue to give you the benefit of the doubt until someone formally steps in.

I did not make the connection to the timing of the closure WRT the two major events going on that same weekend, but this, in among everything else internally that we do not know about but that has been hinted at (ie: War Witch's observation to VV that everything appeared to be going well, including the hiring), had to be a confusing mix of events. I would be very interested to know, and unfortunately never will, what the internal discussion was in NOT going to PAX, such that this announcement was still a surprise.  That strikes me as at least slightly planned in advance.

[void hunter]

Typo? If not, I want to know who their landlord is.

Nope not a typo. Earlier, in another thread I assumed they were in a nicer area, but they're in an industrial area, and their Lease amounts to about $250k / year. That's actually pretty good news, as it means they were spending less on overhead and making more profit.

[void hunter]

Personally, I wonder if you're not a unicorn, but I'm going to continue to give you the benefit of the doubt until someone formally steps in.

I did not make the connection to the timing of the closure WRT the two major events going on that same weekend, but this, in among everything else internally that we do not know about but that has been hinted at (ie: War Witch's observation to VV that everything appeared to be going well, including the hiring), had to be a confusing mix of events. I would be very interested to know, and unfortunately never will, what the internal discussion was in NOT going to PAX, such that this announcement was still a surprise.  That strikes me as at least slightly planned in advance.

Interesting that the board subsitiutes unicorn for unicorn. The most direct thing would be to ask me. I don't know anything about behind the scenes stuff like decisions. My stuff is all just my opinion (just like pretty much everyone else). It does seem odd that they'd opt out of something like that without some knowledge, but it does look like this was all very sudden.

[dwturducken]

That's why I'm curious what the rationale was, internally.  The decision not to go had to raise a few eyebrows.

[Aggelakis]

$18/year per sq foot is pretty average for the area.

$18/yr per sq foot, sure. But $18/yr is not. I do believe they're pointing out the missing "/sqft" part of that "$18/yr".

[void hunter]

$18/yr per sq foot, sure. But $18/yr is not. I do believe they're pointing out the missing "/sqft" part of that "$18/yr".

Ahh I see now. Yeah I meant per square foot. That's still pretty low, as I'm pay that myself for my business and I'm not in California.

[Roderick]

$18/year per sq foot is pretty average for the area.

Yeah, but it doesn't say anything about "per square foot". That's why I asked.
EDIT: And if I'd read the WHOLE thread before posting, I'd have seen that Agge's beating me to the punch on this forum too now.

[Golden Girl]

They didn't even know about it until 3 hours before the official public announcement.

[Victoria Victrix]

I believe, although I must stress that I do not know for certain, that the decision to not attend PAX was made at NCSoft's level by declining to give Paragon an advertising/promotional budget.  I do know that NCSoft had given Paragon a $0 advertising and promotional budget for the last year at least, and probably longer.  Hence the larger virtual presence, the "Coffee Talks" and other creative attempts at promotion.

And yes, someone could have gone to PAX on his or her own dime...without booths, displays, banners and so forth, there wouldn't have been a lot the rep could have done.  And man...those things are expensive.

[Aggelakis]

Yeah, but it doesn't say anything about "per square foot". That's why I asked.
EDIT: And if I'd read the WHOLE thread before posting, I'd have seen that Agge's beating me to the punch on this forum too now.

[void hunter]

I believe, although I must stress that I do not know for certain, that the decision to not attend PAX was made at NCSoft's level by declining to give Paragon an advertising/promotional budget.  I do know that NCSoft had given Paragon a $0 advertising and promotional budget for the last year at least, and probably longer.  Hence the larger virtual presence, the "Coffee Talks" and other creative attempts at promotion.

And yes, someone could have gone to PAX on his or her own dime...without booths, displays, banners and so forth, there wouldn't have been a lot the rep could have done.  And man...those things are expensive.

I'm sure considerable cost is involved with the larger conventions. Paragon's own website was pretty modest as well, which would lead to evidence that their advertising budget was probably non-existent.

I still wonder if the timing has to do with their fiscal year hitting a certain time that would allow them to show a certain loss tax wise. That, and the short timing between the announcement of closing Paragon with an announcement that Blade and Soul was being brought to the West is also suspicious.

[FlameBailador]

Ahh I see now. Yeah I meant per square foot. That's still pretty low, as I'm pay that myself for my business and I'm not in California.

<---Commercial Property Manager (in AZ)

An $18/sf rental rate may sound low, but chances are that at that number it's what they refer to as "triple net" rent.  Which means on top of the base rent, the tenant has to pay their share of the cost to run the building...property taxes, utliities, landscaping, janitorial, management fees, maintenance, etc.  Also, might be responsible to maintain the inside of their own suite - from outlets and faucets to air conditioning.  And depending on what part of the city/state/country you are in, you could be talking in excess of another $10 per square foot in rent.  So that could almost double their annual rent.  For instance, a medical office building (my specialty) advertising a $20 triple net rent may actually cost the tenant another $9.00 in building expenses, plus another $2.50 per square foot for power and hiring a janitorial company.

Not that this means anything in the scheme of things and what we're trying to do here.  But it does go to illustrate all the "fun" nuances of paying for things having to do with running your own business.  The real estate industry likes to quote only the "Triple Net" rental rate by itself, because it sounds cheaper.  Also why industrial leasing agents like to quote in cents per square foot (per month).   

[Osborn]

<---Commercial Property Manager (in AZ)

An $18/sf rental rate may sound low, but chances are that at that number it's what they refer to as "triple net" rent.  Which means on top of the base rent, the tenant has to pay their share of the cost to run the building...property taxes, utliities, landscaping, janitorial, management fees, maintenance, etc.  Also, might be responsible to maintain the inside of their own suite - from outlets and faucets to air conditioning.  And depending on what part of the city/state/country you are in, you could be talking in excess of another $10 per square foot in rent.  So that could almost double their annual rent.  For instance, a medical office building (my specialty) advertising a $20 triple net rent may actually cost the tenant another $9.00 in building expenses, plus another $2.50 per square foot for power and hiring a janitorial company.

Not that this means anything in the scheme of things and what we're trying to do here.  But it does go to illustrate all the "fun" nuances of paying for things having to do with running your own business.  The real estate industry likes to quote only the "Triple Net" rental rate by itself, because it sounds cheaper.  Also why industrial leasing agents like to quote in cents per square foot (per month).   

Yeah, 18 dollars a year sounds cool until you do the math. It's like "Hey, I should move there and I could have 5-6 houses" till you realize it's 37 thousand dollars a month.

[void hunter]

<---Commercial Property Manager (in AZ)

An $18/sf rental rate may sound low, but chances are that at that number it's what they refer to as "triple net" rent.  Which means on top of the base rent, the tenant has to pay their share of the cost to run the building...property taxes, utliities, landscaping, janitorial, management fees, maintenance, etc.  Also, might be responsible to maintain the inside of their own suite - from outlets and faucets to air conditioning.  And depending on what part of the city/state/country you are in, you could be talking in excess of another $10 per square foot in rent.  So that could almost double their annual rent.  For instance, a medical office building (my specialty) advertising a $20 triple net rent may actually cost the tenant another $9.00 in building expenses, plus another $2.50 per square foot for power and hiring a janitorial company.

Not that this means anything in the scheme of things and what we're trying to do here.  But it does go to illustrate all the "fun" nuances of paying for things having to do with running your own business.  The real estate industry likes to quote only the "Triple Net" rental rate by itself, because it sounds cheaper.  Also why industrial leasing agents like to quote in cents per square foot (per month).   

All this is very true, and is why in another thread I added other things. I pay $18 (ish) per sq / ft, which includes all utilities unless they go above a certain threshhold, which I then pay a percentage of that amount based on my suite size versus the total square footage of the entire building. I know that this can vary greatly depending on the area. Man, it's nice to be able to discuss things without people getting all bent out of shape.

[Victoria Victrix]

I'm sure considerable cost is involved with the larger conventions. Paragon's own website was pretty modest as well, which would lead to evidence that their advertising budget was probably non-existent.

I still wonder if the timing has to do with their fiscal year hitting a certain time that would allow them to show a certain loss tax wise. That, and the short timing between the announcement of closing Paragon with an announcement that Blade and Soul was being brought to the West is also suspicious.

Pax-not-on-a-budget, about $12k

Pax-on-a-budget, about $4k.  Here is an excellent article: http://www.andymoore.ca/2012/09/so-you-want-to-take-your-indie-game-to-pax-on-a-budget/

[Osborn]

Pax-not-on-a-budget, about $12k

Pax-on-a-budget, about $4k.  Here is an excellent article: http://www.andymoore.ca/2012/09/so-you-want-to-take-your-indie-game-to-pax-on-a-budget/

Not to mention that 4 grand would be basically coming out of their paycheck. Could we had crowd funded it? Maybe! But they thought they were doing good so I doubt they would had went looking for hand outs for something that, at the time, didn't seem like a problem, too.

[Victoria Victrix]

Pax, as is mentioned in that article, is one of the cheaper big cons too.  For the same booth space (and you have to bring all of your own stuff, rather than getting a lot of goodies supplied as is mentioned in the article) DragonCon runs about twice that.  I shudder to think what SanDiego ComiCon runs, or the big computer/electronics/software show in Las Vegas whose name has totally flown out of my memory.

[Osborn]

Pax, as is mentioned in that article, is one of the cheaper big cons too.  For the same booth space (and you have to bring all of your own stuff, rather than getting a lot of goodies supplied as is mentioned in the article) DragonCon runs about twice that.  I shudder to think what SanDiego ComiCon runs, or the big computer/electronics/software show in Las Vegas whose name has totally flown out of my memory.

I think honestly the last big thing I saw them do advertisement wise was that big prison party for the release of City of Villains. That was met with a huge upswing in players. It fizzled out eventually because practically the next day their advertisement budget went back to zero, but if we could had hit those numbers and sustained it for a while, or anything even close to it, that would had been fantastic.

[dwturducken]

There was some kind of promotion of Going Rogue and the Signature Story Arcs, or at least the first one.  In the run up to each of those, there were videos on YouTube of promo footage being shown at conventions. Don't ask me which cons; I'd have to go hunt through YouTube, which is always such a joy.

[Segev]

In positive news, when Paragon Studios manages to reform as its own entity, they can determine their own advertising budget for CoH.

[dwturducken]

In positive news, when Paragon Studios manages to reform as its own entity, they can determine their own advertising budget for CoH.

By that you mean they'll be reforming an ostensibly autonomous entity with more control over their own budget? That would certainly be nice to see.

[Segev]

The most reliable information we currently have is that there are negotiations between former leadership of Paragon Studios and NCSoft for the ownership of all things CoH. I can only assume they would re-form Paragon Studios as an independent entity when those negotiations conclude with the separation of CoH from NCSoft.

[eabrace]

I would actually expect the negotiations for ownership of CoH to be an entirely separate process from the creation of a new studio.  The formation of a new studio could quite easily precede obtaining the IP (and, unless the IP is going to belong to individuals rather than a new studio, probably will if that hasn't already happened at least in name).  I would also expect that even if the IP cannot be wrested from NCsoft, plans to create a new studio will continue on regardless.

[Segev]

Oh, sure. My main point is that they WILL need to form a new studio to pull this off. Unless they're negotiating on behalf of an existing one or something, but that's pure speculation as no word of that's come out.

[chaparralshrub]

Well, this assumes, of course, that the backing that the former Paragon leadership has doesn't come from another publisher that is itself buying the IP. Then they may become a subdivision of said other publisher. If the name gets sold as well (no reason why it wouldn't), then it may even still be Paragon.

[Segev]

Also possible!

[dwturducken]

I always assumed that a new studio would be part of the end result, but it never occurred to me that the actual Paragon Studios might be on the table.  Not saying that anyone here is necessarily implying it, but it could be one more point of wild speculation to add to the list of things we're guessuming they are negotiating.

[Segev]

I, for one, suspect they're being bought out by the real Positron and Statesman stepping over from another dimension, but the sticky legal issues surround establishing an exchange rate and getting them green cards to own and operate companies in the USA of our Earth.

[dwturducken]

I, for one, suspect they're being bought out by the real Positron and Statesman stepping over from another dimension, but the sticky legal issues surround establishing an exchange rate and getting them green cards to own and operate companies in the USA of our Earth.

Full of win!   

[Osborn]

I, for one, suspect they're being bought out by the real Positron and Statesman stepping over from another dimension, but the sticky legal issues surround establishing an exchange rate and getting them green cards to own and operate companies in the USA of our Earth.

Statesman was here and you didn't warn him of Wade's plan?!

[Teege]

Statesman was here and you didn't warn him of Wade's plan?!

Wait, Wade owns Nexon?

[Lucretia MacEvil]

I do know that NCSoft had given Paragon a $0 advertising and promotional budget for the last year at least, and probably longer.  Hence the larger virtual presence, the "Coffee Talks" and other creative attempts at promotion.

As I've mentioned before, NCSoft really dropped the ball by doing this.  Superheros are a big thing right now, thanks to all the movies that came out over the past several years.  CoX could've made a bundle or ten if it had been advertised properly.  Instead, NCSoft let this opportunity pass them (and us) by.  I really hope CoX gets bought by someone who'll actually care for it properly.

[Segev]

I really hope CoX gets bought by someone who'll actually care for it properly.

As do we all. ^_^_x

[chaparralshrub]

I, for one, suspect they're being bought out by the real Positron and Statesman stepping over from another dimension, but the sticky legal issues surround establishing an exchange rate and getting them green cards to own and operate companies in the USA of our Earth.

Not possible, I'm afraid - Statesman and Positron don't have that kind of money on hand.

This would be Manticore's job. And yes, I'm pretty darn sure he's going to be pretty careful to make sure his dear wife stays breathing this time around.