City of Heroes' Spiritual Successor Kickstarter on Massively

[Minotaur]

That's (insert not-nice dismissive word that probably would get turned into something like "fairydust" by the forum filter).

If you don't have them, how would anyone believe you know how to use them? Or do you suppose they're not even claiming that? I've worked on game mods before, and it wasn't all a bunch of gMax users. Yeah, some people had student licensed software, and others had to use converters to go from cheap or free alternatives, but ways were found without begging for money. Because nobody is there to give you money for software just because you say: I'll learn it when I get it.

Or if they are, let's all get in line, since we're equally qualified.

You'd better have the software and know how to use it, or nobody in their right mind is going to give you anything to go forward.

Perhaps you are thinking of a conventional studio license. That is probably not applicable to MWM, since they aren't likely to be operating that way. Probably, members will be working from home as freelancers on a per-item commission basis (avoiding the legal and logistical hassles of waged employees). So just as when a company "outsources" production tasks to any other agency, the software used is not expected to be paid for or otherwise provided. Craftsmen are responsible for their own tools.

Nobody's being paid anything for this even after the KS. (I don't know about what happens if we get many times our initial amount and CAN afford to commission stuff to speed it up).

Many of the people have used the relevant software at work/university and know how to use it, but can't afford $1000 for their own copy.

I'm not sure how much of this has had a  public release atm, so can't reply as fully as I want to.

[Mantic]

If they have access to the software they don't need any further license to use it in the way you describe: not-for-profit. If you're seriously expecting work for nothing, then just have them release the files into the public domain. Then it doesn't matter what kind of license they have or even if they have a license at all.

Further, Blender 3D is a compatible option for use with the Unreal Development Kit by way of custom export plugins. It's kind of weird, but it can do every 3D graphics task required, and it is free. Gimp can do any 2D graphics task, and it's free. Audacity is free. What else?

[Zombie Man]

If they have access to the software they don't need any further license to use it in the way you describe: not-for-profit. If you're seriously expecting work for nothing, then just have them release the files into the public domain. Then it doesn't matter what kind of license they have or even if they have a license at all.

We haven't released where the KS money is going yet. We most definitely will so that donors can see what we're getting with their generosity. But there are programs out there which are not free, or whose professional version isn't free which will indeed cost money. These programs will greatly enhance our current tools and greatly speed up development.

To use a poor analogy: Perhaps someone can create a really beautiful work of art using Microsoft Paint for free (well, free after installing Windows). That person could do much better and do it much faster after plunking down half a grand for Photoshop. And if that person is being asked to churn out thousands of pieces of art... the Photoshop cost is worth it.

-Zombie Man, Online Community Manager, The Phoenix Project

[Minotaur]

If they have access to the software they don't need any further license to use it in the way you describe: not-for-profit. If you're seriously expecting work for nothing, then just have them release the files into the public domain. Then it doesn't matter what kind of license they have or even if they have a license at all.

Not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here.

I don't know if YOUR employer will let you use their licensed copy of a piece of software for a private project, I'd have been sacked if I did it.

If I was a student and graduated, how do I use the university's copy of the software ?

[Mantic]

You can do anything you need for game dev in Gimp equally well to Photoshop. Photoshop has a couple of tools that are better with print resolution work, but frankly, Photoshop's UI is more likely to slow you down than speed you up when working on game graphics. The results will be no different.

[Mantic]

Not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here.

I don't know if YOUR employer will let you use their licensed copy of a piece of software for a private project, I'd have been sacked if I did it.

If I was a student and graduated, how do I use the university's copy of the software ?

These are your problems to solve on your own before you come looking for backers to support your work.

[Zombie Man]

You can do anything you need for game dev in Gimp equally well to Photoshop. Photoshop has a couple of tools that are better with print resolution work, but frankly, Photoshop's UI is more likely to slow you down than speed you up when working on game graphics. The results will be no different.

What part of 'to use a poor analogy' do you not understand? The program in question isn't Photoshop.

Or are you purposely giving what's posted the worst possible interpretation to score points?

Besides, this is a case of 'standard code rant' if I ever saw one.

[Mantic]

If you two are serious, I'm just out. You're just kids who want expensive toys.

You  REALLY have to show me how special you are now if you want a dime.

[Zombie Man]

You don't know what we're asking for, but you know they're toys?

Are you psychic?

[Mantic]

**edited for crassness.

[downix]

I see someone here who has never worked with Blender, nor with GIMP, and does not comprehend the production difference.

Can you use Blender instead of Maya, of course. It is much slower progress, as you have to redo the same item multiple times to get it to export correctly such that Unreal can work with it.

Can you use GIMP? Not for every task needed, which means you have to turn to other applications to finish the jobs. Again, time consuming.

Can we use them, of course, and we have been. We also have a few members with higher end applications (primarily Maya, although a few folk with Lightwave 3D and 3DS Max, but still less than 1/4 of our art volunteers have access to a usable form), and we have seen the productivity difference. One guy with Maya is faster than 4 with Blender, even if he is one of the guys with Blender.

That is why the KS, not because we need the tools just to work, but if we want to get this done in a reasonable timeframe, we will need the tools. So we leave that in your hands. Are you all wanting this sooner with the tools, or later without?

[Zombie Man]

... a professional and you've determined in two ways that you aren't being that (you aren't working for money, and you want someone to buy this stuff, which you do not need, for you).

If you use a narrow definition of a professional as someone *paid* for their work, then, yes, our developers aren't professional because they aren't being paid.

Defining professional as having to use equipment that was not donated is a very odd definition of 'professional' I've never heard before.

But there is a larger definition of professional as someone with a technical skill set. And our developers have that technical skill set. And their technical skills exist whether they're being paid or not.

Unless you think that if doctors who donate their time at free clinics stop being 'professionals' the moment they stop being paid? Or if lawyers who do pro bono work stop being 'professional'?

But, just like you've passed judgment on the software we're looking at as being 'toys' without knowing what it is; you've passed judgment on our developers as not being 'professional' without knowing their skill set.

Again, are you psychic?

[Mantic]

I see someone here who has never worked with Blender, nor with GIMP, and does not comprehend the production difference.

Wrong.

Can you use Blender instead of Maya, of course. It is much slower progress, as you have to redo the same item multiple times to get it to export correctly such that Unreal can work with it.

Yes, I realize that. Still, you have to prove you can do the work however you have to for anyone to believe you can do it with any tool.

Can you use GIMP? Not for every task needed, which means you have to turn to other applications to finish the jobs. Again, time consuming.

No, Gimp can do the job. Can export to whatever format. If you were working for print, Photoshop can manage large documents better and has a better airbrush. But you're working small. There's no functional difference.

If you are a professional artist, you already have Photoshop, and other software. Plus, you know the tools you have.

Can we use them, of course, and we have been. We also have a few members with higher end applications (primarily Maya, although a few folk with Lightwave 3D and 3DS Max, but still less than 1/4 of our art volunteers have access to a usable form), and we have seen the productivity difference. One guy with Maya is faster than 4 with Blender, even if he is one of the guys with Blender.

That is why the KS, not because we need the tools just to work, but if we want to get this done in a reasonable timeframe, we will need the tools. So we leave that in your hands. Are you all wanting this sooner with the tools, or later without?

As long as you show that you can do good work, this will not be a problem. Go back and look where this exchange started: someone claiming no need to provide evidence of ability to produce quality work up front.

[lapucelle]

So, what you're saying, Mantic, is that if the Phoenix Project shows they can do good work, you'll be happy. Right?

You're upset that you have not seen work from the Phoenix Project in a long time, since that first video that showed that 'there is a universe running and a rigged character moving about'?

That's understandable. But the Phoenix Project is saving a lot of effort for the kickstarter, all the bright and shiny things. Still, did you see the superspeed screenshot they passed out a few weeks ago? Auras are actually working, which took CoH a while to pull off.

What would it take to make you satisfied that they can do good work?

[Mantic]

Again, are you psychic?

My judgment is entirely based on yourself and Minotaur here in this thread defending the notion that you don't have to prove your ability to do the work to justify any donation. If you convince not just me but any potential backer that you can do good work, it doesn't matter how you budget donations.

[Zombie Man]

My judgment is entirely based on yourself and Minotaur here in this thread defending the notion that you don't have to prove your ability to do the work to justify any donation.

Well, that isn't the point I was making. There will be a demo *before* KS starts.

[Mantic]

What would it take to make you satisfied that they can do good work?

Given that you are using a full-featured engine which does a great deal for you already?

I think you will be expected, not just by me, but by most prospective investors, to show not just any rigged character but fully textured and normal-mapped characters in a small but complete and interactive environment. That shows that your programmers can handle the basics of interacting with the environment in the expected non-standard ways, and that your artists can use the aforementioned software to produce complete resources at a technically acceptable level. What you have now, free or otherwise, should be enough to show off what skills your team have.

If you don't show complete examples of each major aspect required by the production, you're asking people to believe you can do so on your word alone.

[Zombie Man]

BTW, after checking with the tech folk, the plan is that any software 'purchases' will be a copy for corporate use only, or in the cloud available only to active team members, or licensed. No one on development is getting their own personal purchase of software that they get to keep if they leave the project. So, this isn't a 'toys for everyone!' deal. Development tools will only be used for development by active developers.

[Numerology]

lapucelle brings up some good points and unfortunately all there really is to do is sit and wait for the kickstarter launch to get the finer details that people are asking about. The problem that seems to be cropping up appears to be around news of the kickstarter being announced around gaming sites and the lack of any solid visuals or defined game systems until the kickstarter actually launches and I do think it is reasonable for people to have some concerns especially when it comes to donating to a project which has little easily accessed information at the moment. There have been some other valid concerns as well that have been brought up both here on in comments sections and I'm really hoping that the weekly updates will begin to engage with these in a clear, confident and professional manner as at the moment as there seems to be a lot of half information going around. I'm sure there is a way to reach a compromise and answer some of them without compromising the unveiling plans and hopefully both sides will be both satisfied and engaged with TPP for when the full details are revealed.

Unfortunately it seems this disconnect could likely continue until the details are released alongside the kickstarter as neither side really has much leeway to give or take in the argument at the moment. Hopefully the next few weeks pass quickly and that the kickstarter presentation is able to ease some of the concerns people have shared.   

[lapucelle]

Given that you are using a full-featured engine which does a great deal for you already?

I think you will be expected, not just by me, but by most prospective investors, to show not just any rigged character but fully textured and normal-mapped characters in a small but complete and interactive environment. That shows that your programmers can handle the basics of interacting with the environment in the expected non-standard ways, and that your artists can use the aforementioned software to produce complete resources at a technically acceptable level. What you have now, free or otherwise, should be enough to show off what skills your team have.

Fully textured and normal mapped. Hm. Well, that's actually an interesting point. If they had one character fully textured, they'd essentially have the costume creator done, sans art, already. What if they had buildings or objects fully textured instead? I mean, unless you'd rather them spend time making the equivalent of a coverall that'd then be thrown away.

Technically, this guy:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-I80tPLqMuzc/UdzVwPNvAcI/AAAAAAAAAJ8/DNk8tHVWo-Y/s1600/IMG_08072013_224239.png
is fully textured. If he wasn't textured, he'd look like this:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FYfZoZJEG2o/Ub_S2Ii2qCI/AAAAAAAAAJk/-1McB8ftG3s/s1600/mesh_test.png