Author Topic: Just going to throw this out there...  (Read 16769 times)

Ultimate15

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Just going to throw this out there...
« on: August 01, 2013, 04:04:16 PM »
Hello there!

First of all - greetings and salutations :) I've posted on these forums once a few months back, but I literally check Titan nearly everyday just to get the latest scoop on where we are in reviving our City of Heroes.

You guys rock. I applaud all your efforts. I miss this game like woah. <insert hug here>

Anywho - a couple threads down you'll see a topic that was started by @Knight Light regarding NCSoft's new investment in the San Diego based gaming development company Molten Games, Inc. I checked out their website, their Facebook (as I'm sure most of you did) and saw some of the comments people were leaving on their status updates/photos.

Would it be worth it to perhaps start a 'petition' (for some reason I hate that word) or perhaps just make EFFORTS in trying to convince Molten Games to look into reviving COH now that they have a direct partnership with NCSoft?

Feel free to let me know how great/horrible this idea is, because truthfully I'm quite the nuber when it comes to such things as coming up with ways to bring a game back from the dead. HOWEVER...truth time? Even if Google were to have a positive reaction to what I'm sure was a fantastic sales pitch (they haven't responded yet, have they?) we would still have that inconvenient truth of an obstacle that is NCSoft's unwillingness to sell the IP. I may be completely wrong here, but I'm inclined to suspect that NCSoft would be MORE willing to look into bringing a game back with a new potentially western-driven gaming company - whom they have just recently decided to directly finance - as opposed to selling the IP to another company all together. While they have never brought a game back nor sold an IP...I think they would sooner do the former as opposed to the latter, given the specifics of the circumstance.

Also...I can absolutely see why people wouldn't want to do this because this would mean COH would remain in the hands of NCSoft - which, obviously, isn't the ideal for ANY of us. But...truth time part II? I would rather see NCSoft bring back COH than have them just sit on the IP so as no one can ever play the game again. Or, if you've moved on to another game or you're more interested in checking out TPP or Valiance, that's cool too!

Everyone has a right to feel how they wanna feel. I just wanted to get a discussion started here. I'm trying to gauge how naive I'm being, haha :)

Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Concerns?
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JaguarX

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 04:28:23 PM »
They could possibly bring it back if they chose to but if they did it probably would be highly overhauled. Many people already sworn off NCSOFT thus more than likely many of the old community would not be the target audience and thus they would have to make COX to appeal to a new batch of customers. It would be nice imo to have NCSOFT bring back COX or COX2 or something of the sort. If they do bring back COX, they probably will not call it COX per se but something else but using lot of the old IP so that is seems to be a totally new brand new super hero game but not aimed at those that already sworn to not give NCSOFT another dime.

Ultimate15

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 07:23:02 PM »
They could possibly bring it back if they chose to but if they did it probably would be highly overhauled. Many people already sworn off NCSOFT thus more than likely many of the old community would not be the target audience and thus they would have to make COX to appeal to a new batch of customers. It would be nice imo to have NCSOFT bring back COX or COX2 or something of the sort. If they do bring back COX, they probably will not call it COX per se but something else but using lot of the old IP so that is seems to be a totally new brand new super hero game but not aimed at those that already sworn to not give NCSOFT another dime.

Hrm. You think so?

I would actually think that if NCSoft were to choose to bring COH back w/ Molten that they wouldn't want to change the game TOO drastically at the risk of losing whatever fanbase they already originally obtained with the franchise. I don't think they would try to market it as a 'new game' because...well, it ISN'T a new game? Regardless of whatever percentage of the audience they've apparently lost due to their obvious inability to be trusted as a reliable gaming development company, I think we may see different tweaks/updates (hypothetically speaking - this is all wishful thinking, really) but I wouldn't go as far to say that the game would be 'highly overhauled'. That wouldn't be smart from a business OR a marketing standpoint.

I hope they'd also take into consideration that the super-hero themed MMORPG community is actually a semi-specific type of customer. Call me ignorant, but I've never looked at the audience for these types of games as all TOO diverse or broad - maybe somewhat, but not /that/ much. You'll see some players who will make that jump between different genre's of MMO's - i.e. people leaving COH after it closed and heading over to Guild Wards or Neverwinter or something. But I think the majority of COH players either went to Champions Online or DC Online (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here). So I don't even know if there's another audience NCSoft COULD market this game to, other than the one they already worked so hard to get in the first place.

Also, I'm not completely convinced that the people who are currently 'swearing off' any and all titles by NCSoft wouldn't come back to City of Heroes should they decide to resurrect it. That's not to say they're not justified in their anger or frustration with the company, of course - they absolutely are. And I don't want to speak on behave of others when I say this, but I think the OVERWHELMING majority of us - regardless of how furious we are with NCSoft - would at least humor the IDEA of picking up the game again should they decide to bring it back. You may vehemently argue that it's not something you would ever do NOW...but if the tides turned and we were able to get back into Paragon again...?

I DARE YOU TO RESIST THE TEMPTATION!!! I DAAAARE YOOOOOU!!!

...Then again, I could see them wanting to do a slight re-vamp just so a.) they aren't starting things back up again with just more of the same - they gotta incite a bit of excitement/interest with it, and change can often times be the remedy for that and b.) they have to do something to pander to those people who HAVE made that genre-jump from hero to fantasy/anime type MMO's.
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JaguarX

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 08:39:05 PM »
Hrm. You think so?

I would actually think that if NCSoft were to choose to bring COH back w/ Molten that they wouldn't want to change the game TOO drastically at the risk of losing whatever fanbase they already originally obtained with the franchise. I don't think they would try to market it as a 'new game' because...well, it ISN'T a new game? Regardless of whatever percentage of the audience they've apparently lost due to their obvious inability to be trusted as a reliable gaming development company, I think we may see different tweaks/updates (hypothetically speaking - this is all wishful thinking, really) but I wouldn't go as far to say that the game would be 'highly overhauled'. That wouldn't be smart from a business OR a marketing standpoint.

I hope they'd also take into consideration that the super-hero themed MMORPG community is actually a semi-specific type of customer. Call me ignorant, but I've never looked at the audience for these types of games as all TOO diverse or broad - maybe somewhat, but not /that/ much. You'll see some players who will make that jump between different genre's of MMO's - i.e. people leaving COH after it closed and heading over to Guild Wards or Neverwinter or something. But I think the majority of COH players either went to Champions Online or DC Online (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here). So I don't even know if there's another audience NCSoft COULD market this game to, other than the one they already worked so hard to get in the first place.

Also, I'm not completely convinced that the people who are currently 'swearing off' any and all titles by NCSoft wouldn't come back to City of Heroes should they decide to resurrect it. That's not to say they're not justified in their anger or frustration with the company, of course - they absolutely are. And I don't want to speak on behave of others when I say this, but I think the OVERWHELMING majority of us - regardless of how furious we are with NCSoft - would at least humor the IDEA of picking up the game again should they decide to bring it back. You may vehemently argue that it's not something you would ever do NOW...but if the tides turned and we were able to get back into Paragon again...?

I DARE YOU TO RESIST THE TEMPTATION!!! I DAAAARE YOOOOOU!!!

...Then again, I could see them wanting to do a slight re-vamp just so a.) they aren't starting things back up again with just more of the same - they gotta incite a bit of excitement/interest with it, and change can often times be the remedy for that and b.) they have to do something to pander to those people who HAVE made that genre-jump from hero to fantasy/anime type MMO's.

This is true.


But in the context of over haul as I was using it in, it varies. I'm pretty sure at least they would clean up the tangle, or at least it would be business smart, to clean up the tangled code mess, and update the graphics, the AI, and various other stuff which seemed to be said near impossible with the then current state of the code. Or it could range into a game that is nothing like COX but with Statesman stuck in there somehow. Which as you said is probably right, not good for business.

And yeah I think many are probably blowing off steam. If COX came back today right now, with all of their stuff, some that was swearing NCSOFT up and down today and swearing to never give a single penny would hop back on it without hesitation with cash in hand. A few probably would be a bit more leery of hopping on so fast. A very very very few probably would stick to their guns and not partake.

But remember, more than likely if they do bring it back, they probably will reach out more than the 180,000 peak (Maybe) that they was able to obtain back in 2008-2009 time period. They probably will try ot expand the audience ot at least gain 300,000-500,000 players within the first year at least. And given the background of those running or will be running Molten... I wouldnt put it past them to go similar to mechanics that have been proven to work and bring in millions of subscribers with updates mingled and super hero mmo skin mingled with the storyline and features and characters of the "classic" COX with MA as a big selling point. Or attempt to.

Thing about gamers, they are some of the most fickle consumers out there. They want the old btu decry that it's old. They get the new but decry it for not being the old. They have better chance of throwing darts at a dart board and hitting bullseye ten times in a row by bouncing it off two corners of the room while blind folded standing 100 yards away. Every so often one get lucky and sticks. But once ya find what sticks, they imitate it to increase chance of more sticking and repeating success. But like the bullseye there is only so much room.

LadyVamp

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 11:43:15 PM »
I would say please see my comments in "NCSoft has a new venture".  Reply #25.

I stand by those thoughts.  I wouldn't be too thrilled to play a "revamped" coh-ish game by Molten Software.

But, I do agree that if NCSoft brings back a coh-ish game, it won't have coh in any part of the title.
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 04:09:26 AM »
Molten is making a fraking MOBA, not an MMO.  It's going to take them at least two years to do this.  I wish people will stop trying to read into it.  MOBA, very different from an MMO.

Of course they could design a MOBA around super heroes and villains I guess.  But it won't me an MMO.
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sorinkon

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 04:39:45 AM »
i agree to this statement
This is true.


But in the context of over haul as I was using it in, it varies. I'm pretty sure at least they would clean up the tangle, or at least it would be business smart, to clean up the tangled code mess, and update the graphics, the AI, and various other stuff which seemed to be said near impossible with the then current state of the code. Or it could range into a game that is nothing like COX but with Statesman stuck in there somehow. Which as you said is probably right, not good for business.

And yeah I think many are probably blowing off steam. If COX came back today right now, with all of their stuff, some that was swearing NCSOFT up and down today and swearing to never give a single penny would hop back on it without hesitation with cash in hand. A few probably would be a bit more leery of hopping on so fast. A very very very few probably would stick to their guns and not partake.

But remember, more than likely if they do bring it back, they probably will reach out more than the 180,000 peak (Maybe) that they was able to obtain back in 2008-2009 time period. They probably will try ot expand the audience ot at least gain 300,000-500,000 players within the first year at least. And given the background of those running or will be running Molten... I wouldnt put it past them to go similar to mechanics that have been proven to work and bring in millions of subscribers with updates mingled and super hero mmo skin mingled with the storyline and features and characters of the "classic" COX with MA as a big selling point. Or attempt to.

Thing about gamers, they are some of the most fickle consumers out there. They want the old btu decry that it's old. They get the new but decry it for not being the old. They have better chance of throwing darts at a dart board and hitting bullseye ten times in a row by bouncing it off two corners of the room while blind folded standing 100 yards away. Every so often one get lucky and sticks. But once ya find what sticks, they imitate it to increase chance of more sticking and repeating success. But like the bullseye there is only so much room.
the thing is yes 2008-2009 were great years for the game the only thing i would do is take out AE so there is no more farming issues and put base raids back in and the last thing is make it so the free to play version looks more like it did back when they had the COH launcher which i think they should bring that back aswell... as far as graphics.. the paragon market i like those... the paragon rewards system.... screw it i liked veteran badges better

Ultimate15

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 05:36:35 AM »
Molten is making a fraking MOBA, not an MMO.  It's going to take them at least two years to do this.  I wish people will stop trying to read into it.  MOBA, very different from an MMO.

Of course they could design a MOBA around super heroes and villains I guess.  But it won't me an MMO.

No one is arguing this.

I just think people are curious as to what the chances look like for an MMO (such as COH) to be resurrected now that the company which had killed it has decided to directly finance a western-based gaming developer. And even if NCSoft only decided to invest in Molten for that single MOBA title, it's still a RELATIONSHIP that the two companies have started with each other. There is communication there. Ergo, if we can somehow communicate with Molten in an organized and somewhat strategic fashion...*shrugs* I dunno. Worth a shot, in my opinion.

Not to mention, gaming studios HAVE had multiple titles, you know ;) Just because they're currently working on a MOBA that doesn't mean they will never have ANY intention of looking into doing an MMO.

And everyone's going to 'read into' it, haha. That's kind of what we're all doing here, right? That's where it all starts - decisions are made, then we interpret them in a certain light, we foster hope, and ideally we'll ACT on that hope in the off chance that something will stick.

It's called 'taking a risk when you have nothing to lose'. And we literally have NOTHING to lose *laughs*. We already lost it. Now we're just doing whatever we can to get it back. 
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 09:11:32 PM »
Sorry but I was just seeing to many "maybe the new studio will be doing a new CoH" speculation in a number of threads and it was just ticking me off.
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r00tb0ySlim

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 10:00:33 PM »
Sorry but I was just seeing to many "maybe the new studio will be doing a new CoH" speculation in a number of threads and it was just ticking me off.

Whoa!!!  Maybe this will help ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKhZD2eqjEs

As far as Molten/NCSoft goes....you never know, but I would still support TPP and a potential CoX revision.

srmalloy

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 04:41:23 PM »
But remember, more than likely if they do bring it back, they probably will reach out more than the 180,000 peak (Maybe) that they was able to obtain back in 2008-2009 time period. They probably will try ot expand the audience ot at least gain 300,000-500,000 players within the first year at least. And given the background of those running or will be running Molten... I wouldnt put it past them to go similar to mechanics that have been proven to work and bring in millions of subscribers with updates mingled and super hero mmo skin mingled with the storyline and features and characters of the "classic" COX with MA as a big selling point. Or attempt to.

Unfortunately, based on what NCSoft seems to think is the One True Way of MMO design, I would be seriously afraid that they would rework CoH to make it more attractive to the grindfest players, with Paragon City and the Rogue Isles integrated to have open-world PvP across all zones (except for, maybe, Atlas Park and Mercy Island), and the different enhancement categories (TO/DO/SO/IO) would all be rolled together and made crafted-only, with separate crafting skills for each type of enhancement that you had to grind to be able to craft higher-level enhancements, and you would only be able to learn a limited number of these crafting skills -- but enhancements would always be available from the in-game store for actual money, not Inf. And all enhancements would fall off in bonus when you outleveled them; that way, it ensures that there's a steady demand for new enhancements all the way to the endgame.

JaguarX

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 05:33:23 PM »
Unfortunately, based on what NCSoft seems to think is the One True Way of MMO design, I would be seriously afraid that they would rework CoH to make it more attractive to the grindfest players, with Paragon City and the Rogue Isles integrated to have open-world PvP across all zones (except for, maybe, Atlas Park and Mercy Island), and the different enhancement categories (TO/DO/SO/IO) would all be rolled together and made crafted-only, with separate crafting skills for each type of enhancement that you had to grind to be able to craft higher-level enhancements, and you would only be able to learn a limited number of these crafting skills -- but enhancements would always be available from the in-game store for actual money, not Inf. And all enhancements would fall off in bonus when you outleveled them; that way, it ensures that there's a steady demand for new enhancements all the way to the endgame.

yeah. Sad part is that it seems there are a whole bunch of grind fest game players out there in such huge numbers that game makers forget there are other types of gamers, although not as numerous,  but still a very sizeable and relatively untapped market.

Grindfest is like Justin Beiber/Britney Spears CDs.-No one claims to like them but in a miracle fashion still sale in the upper level millions.
Like Rick Ross said- "Somebody lied..." XD

Eoraptor

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2013, 06:35:04 PM »
that's a surprisingly apt comparison, JaguarX. just like the people peddling to bieber beliebers and oops girls, they forget all about the hard core blues market, or the bluegrass market, or the tens of millions of people listening to hair ball and classic rock.
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JaguarX

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2013, 09:52:07 PM »
that's a surprisingly apt comparison, JaguarX. just like the people peddling to bieber beliebers and oops girls, they forget all about the hard core blues market, or the bluegrass market, or the tens of millions of people listening to hair ball and classic rock.
yup.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 12:57:02 AM »
yup.
You mean there are categories of music other than "Oldies"?  :o
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »
I'd be utterly horrified if this was announced if for nothing other than the fact that it would read to me as "Blizzard takes over COH".

WOW is a grindfest, with focus on gear and very little character customization and personality. It's very funny at times, and has some very nice plot-lines to follow along due to the source materials rich backstory and history, but in the end it really just feels like nothing but farming for gear and gold. I could make that Orc Death Knight, but he's gonna look just like every other Orc Death Knight and not really be anything I'm invested in. This is Blizzards cash cow and a formula that's kept them in business for nearly a decade. Just imagine what they would do if they decided to revive and/or rehaul City. It's not a pretty picture to me. Incarnate Trials were great fun to do when you wanted something epic to do with your heroes quickly, but they weren't the entire endgame. We had incarnate story arcs, signature arcs, lots of trials and giant monsters and just general end game story arcs that were engrossing and fun. WOW doesn't have that. Once a new expansion is released everyone only does the latest and greatest raid and you're essentially on your own to get there. I won't even go into detail on the atrociously over-priced blizzard store.

I'd much rather just wait for a community-run server than see our City turned into some sort of cash-cow for Blizzard and putting more money in NCSofts pockets.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2013, 05:18:37 PM »
WOW is a grindfest, with focus on gear and very little character customization and personality. It's very funny at times, and has some very nice plot-lines to follow along due to the source materials rich backstory and history, but in the end it really just feels like nothing but farming for gear and gold. I could make that Orc Death Knight, but he's gonna look just like every other Orc Death Knight and not really be anything I'm invested in. This is Blizzards cash cow and a formula that's kept them in business for nearly a decade. Just imagine what they would do if they decided to revive and/or rehaul City. It's not a pretty picture to me. Incarnate Trials were great fun to do when you wanted something epic to do with your heroes quickly, but they weren't the entire endgame. We had incarnate story arcs, signature arcs, lots of trials and giant monsters and just general end game story arcs that were engrossing and fun. WOW doesn't have that. Once a new expansion is released everyone only does the latest and greatest raid and you're essentially on your own to get there. I won't even go into detail on the atrociously over-priced blizzard store.

The one thing that Blizzard did that I could have gotten behind Paragon Studios doing with City of Heroes was the deal Blizzard made with FigurePrints that gave FigurePrints direct access to the character models in Blizzard's server database so that you could go to their website and order custom full-color 3D-printed statues of your characters in various poses. With a larger stable of characters per player, and more costumes per character, this could have made for a significant revenue increase for PS... and if you want to dream about 'might have been', it's possible that a marketing deal like that could have opened the eyes of NCSoft management to what CoH could do with a real advertising budget.

Eoraptor

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2013, 05:28:24 PM »
yeah, that would have been hellacious.. to have my own little Fug Li or Ferretina sitting on my desk watching over my own little suburb of Paragon City.  :gonk:
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2013, 09:15:30 AM »
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2013, 07:01:12 AM »

I'd much rather just wait for a community-run server than see our City turned into some sort of cash-cow for Blizzard and putting more money in NCSofts pockets.

I agree with this. I wish they would release the server code (Or whatever the software needed to run a server is called). If they were smart they'd sell the software and have part of the user agreement be that you can't make money off your server. ((Admittedly I don't know much about business or servers. So if this is completely impossible then ignore me xD )) Seems to me like it would be a good way to make a quick buck off the game with little work on their part . . . unless there is something I'm missing.

Though if they revived it at all I'd try it just to see how it was. To be honest  if the community and customization was there, and the gameplay was generally the same or similar, I'd play it.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2013, 03:51:06 PM »
I just want to play the game and don't care who owns it. I don't care if ncsoft runs the game again or if blizzard or another company runs it, I just want to play so damned badly at this point that ownership doesn't matter.

Sadly I fear by the time we get the game back people will have lost the interest or moved on to other games and I really want to do more than just stand under atlas and chat or roll tons of alts like im doing in other games now. I miss the variety of stuff I had to do in city of heroes and the people and I really miss msrs and incarnate trials greatly.

These successors sound fun but so do many other mmos that come and go. I really just want what was stolen from me, from you, from all of us and not something new and shiny. New and shiny is good but only if you don't lose the option of playing the old fun and faithful.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2013, 05:21:10 PM »
I still, STILL have trouble believing that all my hard work, all my real-world dollars and all my real-world time got flushed down the toilet by some uncaring jackass of a company. Its more than missing the game, although of course I miss it tremendously... I fell that THEY STOLE SOMETHING FROM ME. They stole items I could have sold, for real cash. [Not that I ever would, just sayin'] My alts and their enhancements etc. were things I  PAID FOR. By what RIGHT do they steal from me, or any of us?

Before someone chimes in about the EULA, yes  I know but "legal" and "the right thing to do" are paths that only occasionally intersect. What they did was WRONG!

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2013, 05:52:29 PM »
Before someone chimes in about the EULA, yes  I know but "legal" and "the right thing to do" are paths that only occasionally intersect. What they did was WRONG!
This is why I hate the software industry these days.  Everyone's realizing that, hey, if I license something to someone instead of sell it to them, I can take it back later and there's not pancake they can do!  So thus comes the EULA, and the legal bull that lets them get away with highway robbery.

And before someone comes in and says they had every right to do it, consider this for a moment.  Let's say I manage to win, in court, legal ownership of your left eye, and all attached or adjacent bodily tissues and fibers.  And I decide to stab you in the eyesocket with a knife.  Is that right?  No.  Is it even fair?  No.  Is it within my rights?  Yes.  Still doesn't make it any less reprehensible of an action.

Law is supposed to protect people from dishonest, abusive behavior like this.  Not enable it.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2013, 05:58:06 PM »
The law makes everybody equal. Justice goes to the highest bidder.
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Illusionss

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2013, 06:34:33 PM »
The problem is that is that people like me are now thinking, "Yeah if I have no power over it..... I am not going to buy it." they don't get to sell me something and then take it back at whim; that's a crap deal for the buyer. The buyer pays money for.... nothing, actually.

Hopefully more buyers will wake up about this issue.

JaguarX

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2013, 04:51:51 AM »
This is why I hate the software industry these days.  Everyone's realizing that, hey, if I license something to someone instead of sell it to them, I can take it back later and there's not pancake they can do!  So thus comes the EULA, and the legal bull that lets them get away with highway robbery.

And before someone comes in and says they had every right to do it, consider this for a moment.  Let's say I manage to win, in court, legal ownership of your left eye, and all attached or adjacent bodily tissues and fibers.  And I decide to stab you in the eyesocket with a knife.  Is that right?  No.  Is it even fair?  No.  Is it within my rights?  Yes.  Still doesn't make it any less reprehensible of an action.

Law is supposed to protect people from dishonest, abusive behavior like this.  Not enable it.

I'm still kind of curious of how did they get it passed legal scrutiny in the first place?

They payed some law makers off? It looked like a good idea on paper without them thinking about in actual practice?


But really, Kaiser, there have been talks about financing transplants and the loss of money that happens when the recipient is not able to pay and or welch. There have been suggestions of creating a way where they can legally repo the organ. Think they made a couple of movies off that basis. Thus far, it haven't materialized but in the future, who knows. There might be a lot of eye stabbing and "licensing" or organs until it's paid off.

I think in today's world, especially in the software realm, it's imperative that the buyer ensure they know the difference between licensing and actual ownership buying. Unfortunately I don't think most buyers of software know the difference. I think as time go on, they will realize the difference, hopefully prior to a significant event, and wising up. Then software companies, especially game makers will have to change their tactics.

They know most players never bother reading those EULAs and ToS that explain that it's only a license, and that they can end it any time any reason. And of course they aint going to force it beyond the click button. And thus not many even think it's an issue, and think they own it, until they realize they don't which in many cases they find themselves more empty handed than necessary. If one person agrees that their eye and the stuff connected to it belongs to someone else and at any time the person can come and claim said eye, is it wrong for the person to claim the eye when the time come? A person who didn't read the agreement they agreed to, will be shocked and probably pissed and will be a vicious lesson in never ever agree to anything without reading it. Thus if a person don't want the risk of their eye being taken back, they should not enter into an agreement that says they agree that their eye can be taken back at any moment. Whether things stated or are enforceable or not, especially if going by sheer guess and not read over by a legal team as sometimes the oddest things are in fact enforceable.


Maybe they should make it where there is no way to play a game unless the player send in a certified letter signed by a lawyer that says they understand that the game is licensed only or they must personally call in and confirm with the legal department. That way, both sides are sure that the other side understand exactly what each side is getting into. It seems that depending on the player to read it and understand the agreement is not working at all. Failure of communication that leaves the player holding the bag.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2013, 07:34:54 AM »
...and there's not pancake they can do!

Just a side note, here: I really wish we could change "pancake" to something like "grapefruit". I loathe grapefruit with a passion, but I dearly LOOOOVE pancakes.
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2013, 12:38:39 PM »
Just a side note, here: I really wish we could change "pancake" to something like "grapefruit". I loathe grapefruit with a passion, but I dearly LOOOOVE pancakes.

No way! You can have my pancake when you pry it from my cold, dead arrested fingers. What kind of grapefruit are you trying to pull here, anyway?

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2013, 01:29:53 PM »
Maybe they should make it where there is no way to play a game unless the player send in a certified letter signed by a lawyer that says they understand that the game is licensed only or they must personally call in and confirm with the legal department. That way, both sides are sure that the other side understand exactly what each side is getting into. It seems that depending on the player to read it and understand the agreement is not working at all. Failure of communication that leaves the player holding the bag.
A better idea would to simply bring the ideas of conscience, common sense, and respect back into law.  Less focus on the letter of the law and more upon the spirit of it.

To go back to the knife-in-eyesocket example I gave earlier, I should never have been awarded possession of anyone else's organs, especially not when they're still alive and functioning in the other person's body.  Sure, there might be legal grounds, but that's just unconscionable; that organ's necessary for the bearer to function as a normal human being.

Similarly, when you make a service available on a regular basis to someone, and sell them things to use and enjoy within that service, you should strive to make sure that some aspect of that service, and the things you've sold to them within it, persist after your closure of it.  Ideally, you shouldn't shut down an MMO until there's nobody left on it, or you've made preparations for someone else to run it, or provided a sequel MMO.  Or you're simply not financially capable of keeping it alive any longer.  I've seen a lot of MMOs actually do this when they close down.  For instance PSO wasn't closed down until PSU was launched, at least in Japan.  Everquest is still running, despite the fact that there's an Everquest 2, and soon Everquest Next.  Sega offered an Arks Cash stipend to subscribing/AC-purchasing players of PSU in Japan when PSO2 was launched if they would move over to the new game.

What's so shocking about CoH's closure, and the closure of so many other NCsoft games (Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa) is that they don't make efforts to ensure the game goes down gracefully and that their players are left with an option to continue playing a game similar to the one they love.  Moreover, the closures are sudden, without warning, and often with only the most cursory explanations as to why.  This leaves players feeling like they've just been dumped out in the snow while taking a warm bath on a cold winter day, with all their clothes still inside.  The only other company I've ever seen to do this is EA (but that's a rant for a different time, and maybe a different place.)

Most of these 'goods' and this 'service' are entirely digital in nature.  Without development and expansion going on, they have a startlingly low overhead - the only costs include rental and maintenance of the server hardware (and that's assuming you don't own the server farm), and the bandwidth used in operating it.  This is why putting MMOs in 'maintenance mode' is so easy, it's why Everquest is still running to this day, and why private servers for many games are so common.  It wouldn't have been hard for NCsoft to put CoH into maintenance mode until they'd worked out an amicable closing procedure with their players.  Instead they kicked us out, locked the door behind us, and then squatted on CoH like some bloated, overfed vulture that's too fat to fly and too full to eat and yet still won't give up the carcass out of sheer greed.

This, honestly, is why I feel so many of us are still pissed off, after all this time.  By treating us this way, NCsoft has demonstrated that they feel no obligations to their playerbase, the people who give them the money that pleases their shareholders, and instead feel that their only obligations are to their shareholders, they people they give their money to.  They'll happily stick the knife in our eyesocket, if it means their shareholders get to see that little graph on Reuters go up.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there something, I dunno, bass ackwards about this?  I mean, to your average joe, the person giving you money is a lot more important than the person taking money from you.  Your employer is a lot more important to you than the collection agency hounding you about a loan repayment, for example.  Why is it different for businesses?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 01:46:18 PM by Kaiser Tarantula »

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2013, 04:51:43 PM »
Software has a long legal history being a licensed product going back to the first commercial mainframes.  Most companies didn't buy computers or the OS that ran on them, the hardware was leased and the software was licensed.  I'm talking pre PC era.  I'm guessing the fact that duplication/manufacturing costs are near zero, that licensing was the only existing legal means available to these first commercial programs to guarantee income to their creators (ownership is done with Copyright).

After 30 years of existing case law on the subject by the time the PC era started, it was just the way software was handled.  Software is licensed.  It may have come in a box with physical media to hold the software but you are buying a license, not the paper tape/floppy/CD/DVD.
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JaguarX

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2013, 05:43:34 PM »
A better idea would to simply bring the ideas of conscience, common sense, and respect back into law.  Less focus on the letter of the law and more upon the spirit of it.

To go back to the knife-in-eyesocket example I gave earlier, I should never have been awarded possession of anyone else's organs, especially not when they're still alive and functioning in the other person's body.  Sure, there might be legal grounds, but that's just unconscionable; that organ's necessary for the bearer to function as a normal human being.

Similarly, when you make a service available on a regular basis to someone, and sell them things to use and enjoy within that service, you should strive to make sure that some aspect of that service, and the things you've sold to them within it, persist after your closure of it.  Ideally, you shouldn't shut down an MMO until there's nobody left on it, or you've made preparations for someone else to run it, or provided a sequel MMO.  Or you're simply not financially capable of keeping it alive any longer.  I've seen a lot of MMOs actually do this when they close down.  For instance PSO wasn't closed down until PSU was launched, at least in Japan.  Everquest is still running, despite the fact that there's an Everquest 2, and soon Everquest Next.  Sega offered an Arks Cash stipend to subscribing/AC-purchasing players of PSU in Japan when PSO2 was launched if they would move over to the new game.

What's so shocking about CoH's closure, and the closure of so many other NCsoft games (Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa) is that they don't make efforts to ensure the game goes down gracefully and that their players are left with an option to continue playing a game similar to the one they love.  Moreover, the closures are sudden, without warning, and often with only the most cursory explanations as to why.  This leaves players feeling like they've just been dumped out in the snow while taking a warm bath on a cold winter day, with all their clothes still inside.  The only other company I've ever seen to do this is EA (but that's a rant for a different time, and maybe a different place.)

Most of these 'goods' and this 'service' are entirely digital in nature.  Without development and expansion going on, they have a startlingly low overhead - the only costs include rental and maintenance of the server hardware (and that's assuming you don't own the server farm), and the bandwidth used in operating it.  This is why putting MMOs in 'maintenance mode' is so easy, it's why Everquest is still running to this day, and why private servers for many games are so common.  It wouldn't have been hard for NCsoft to put CoH into maintenance mode until they'd worked out an amicable closing procedure with their players.  Instead they kicked us out, locked the door behind us, and then squatted on CoH like some bloated, overfed vulture that's too fat to fly and too full to eat and yet still won't give up the carcass out of sheer greed.

This, honestly, is why I feel so many of us are still pissed off, after all this time.  By treating us this way, NCsoft has demonstrated that they feel no obligations to their playerbase, the people who give them the money that pleases their shareholders, and instead feel that their only obligations are to their shareholders, they people they give their money to.  They'll happily stick the knife in our eyesocket, if it means their shareholders get to see that little graph on Reuters go up.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there something, I dunno, bass ackwards about this?  I mean, to your average joe, the person giving you money is a lot more important than the person taking money from you.  Your employer is a lot more important to you than the collection agency hounding you about a loan repayment, for example.  Why is it different for businesses?

lol. Well greed have a lot od leeway in the court of law. And also it depends on the person that view greed. what is greed to one is scraping by on another.

Yes, giving NCSOFT history of doing that, and EA, why do people keep going back to them, or kept going back to them? Either way  I agree that the law probably should be reviewed but to do that we the people have to make it worth their time to look at it. And that definitely will have to go beyond "Well yes they own the game, but they should be required by law to dump money into it and keep it open until they start to lose money or give it away." Because that explanation probably wouldn't have to apply only to games, but just about any operating business that provides anything from a restaurant to a car repair shop that requires that they must server their customers until they are no longer able to and lose money or turn the shop over to one of their customers or competitors to ensure it keep running. I think then able about the customer thing especially the loss of money might work or be a better start. Then again though, cant come across as "angry gamers" even if we are, angry gamers in the court of law and media already have a bad rap as over reacting over sensitive, put games above everything else people. Go to youtube, type in angry gamer or nerd raging, and generally that is what the general population see about the gamer's world. Even though the reality is that we all just normal people. The problem is that when things go well, gamers tend to stay within gaming community. When things go sour, that is when they choose to want to be visible to the general population.
But the days of when laws were common sense,  and respectable, I'm not sure how far back we would have to go as lot of laws back in the day were not so respectable and pretty embarrassing, while the laws today seem to favor a lot of corporate nonsense. The spirit of the law wasn't all it was cracked up to be throughout most of the US history.

But in the mean time I think the sure way to combat this is still, do not enter into agreements that are suspect. A certain group is offering a product, I like the product, but the history is spotty with criminal activities. Do I buy and enter into a contract verbal email, electronic, paper either one and then get highly pissed when I'm the fall guy even though it stated in the agreement that I will be the fall guy? Sometimes it's up to the customer to take some responsibility for their own actions and be smarter and not enter into or even bother with suspect agreements. More people did that, then less money they will make,  the more they may change tactics. and way of doing business. But the more they can find many people that will agree to anything and not take responsibility for their own action of agreeing, then they wont change and will continue to see how much those people will agree to anything as long as they show a carrot and shiny item.


Kind of like how renter's laws evolved. at one point in time it was perfectly legal to kick of a default renter off the premises for even being a day late with no regulations on late fee with some charging double or triple rent for late payments. Many place now it's 30 day notice and regulations on late fees. A cases were made that it was not fair practice, although legal at the time, and it eventually changed. For MMO, the case have to be made that the process of shutting down a game In the manner that some do it is not fair to the customer. Eventually it's up to the customer to say enough and make a case for change and no matter how beautiful the house is, to not enter  an agreement where it would be unfair to them. But in order to do that, the customer have to know and read their current rights before entering into that agreement. If people continue to not read what they are getting into and or just click on and agree to anything presented, then it wont change anything. More money that is given to these shady practices and companies the more money they have to ensure that the process stay in their favor. They cant make money without the customer and it's up to the customer to choose where and who they agree to give their money to. Sometimes in the beginning this require a bit of sacrifice as they may not be able to partake in that nice house on the lake that they want and they may have to go to someone else with a decent house with no lake but better and more fair agreement.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 05:56:24 PM by JaguarX »

Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2013, 06:59:36 PM »
Software has a long legal history being a licensed product going back to the first commercial mainframes.  Most companies didn't buy computers or the OS that ran on them, the hardware was leased and the software was licensed.  I'm talking pre PC era.

History informs but should not dictate.  We live in an age where computer ownership is a very real thing for the average person.  Times have changed and now we've got bloated software companies hanging on to that old model because it allows them to stiff consumers without any recourse for the latter.

Most people don't even realize they're buying a license.  You ask your Aunt Dolly whether or not she owns the copy of Windows 95 on her old computer and she'll say, "sure, I paid for it, didn't I?"  Yet she doesn't, and according to the software companies, never did.  And according to them they could revoke her right to use it and charge her for infringing upon their copyright at any time.  There's something intensely wrong with that level of disconnection going on between legal facts and common sense.

Think about it.  A toy company can make as many wooden rocking horses as they can obtain materials for, and sell them to people.  Are those people buying a license to use that wooden rocking horse?  No, they're buying ownership of that one, particular, wooden rocking horse.  Now, that doesn't give them the right to reverse-engineer the design and make their own imitation wooden rocking horses (patent and possibly copyright law covers that, unless I miss my guess), but it does mean that the company can't come, revoke their license, and take the horse back.

Yet, somehow, a software company can produce as many copies of a piece of software as they can find storage space or bandwidth for, and sell them to people, and later revoke the buyer's right to use them, because of a little line saying "licensed, not sold".  Why, all of a sudden, does the same system that works for wooden rocking horses, suddenly fail when applied to software, making "licensed, not sold" a necessity?  I contend that it's not failing - it's just not being used.  Software companies don't want to adapt to the times and are keeping hold of the outmoded licensing system simply for the leverage it offers over the consumer.  There's something intensely wrong with that.

But in the mean time I think the sure way to combat this is still, do not enter into agreements that are suspect. A certain group is offering a product, I like the product, but the history is spotty with criminal activities. Do I buy and enter into a contract verbal email, electronic, paper either one and then get highly pissed when I'm the fall guy even though it stated in the agreement that I will be the fall guy? Sometimes it's up to the customer to take some responsibility for their own actions and be smarter and not enter into or even bother with suspect agreements. More people did that, then less money they will make,  the more they may change tactics. and way of doing business. But the more they can find many people that will agree to anything and not take responsibility for their own action of agreeing, then they wont change and will continue to see how much those people will agree to anything as long as they show a carrot and shiny item.

While you've got a point JaguarX, that it's kinda up to the consumer to not enter into license agreements that hold provisions like this, most people aren't even aware such agreements exist, and software companies are in no hurry to tell them.  Can you read a full copy of the software's EULA before you take that software box out of the store?  If you bring it back to the store, opened, and say, "I'm sorry, I refused the EULA of this software, I want a refund" will you get it?  Usually the answer is no, and I'm speaking from experience on that.  I actually tried this once with the Wal-Mart in my old neighborhood and got escorted out of the store.  And yes, the EULA had a provision that stated, "If you do not accept this EULA, return the software to your place of purchase for a full refund."  Fat lot of good that did me, I couldn't prove the EULA said that without booting up the installer, even had I been offered the chance to do so!

Not only is that kind of underhanded behavior common practice, you've also got to consider that some software you just aren't going to get by without.  Let's face it, if you want to play video games, you're going to have to run Windows.  Sure, you can sometimes get around it with linux wrappers and the like, but those aren't perfect by a long shot.  Windows is basically the operating system that professional software companies develop for.  They hold all but a monopoly on the PC gaming market.  Most PCs that aren't custom built either by you or someone you've hired/cajoled into doing so will come with a Windows operating system by default - you've basically accepted their EULA the minute you first boot them up, you didn't have a choice in the matter.  The vast majority of people have no reasonable way of getting around that.  It's something you have to accept if you want to use a prebuilt manufactured PC.

So, not only are most people not aware that a choice needs to be made on whether to accept these agreements, there's a lot of instances out there where you're not given a choice - the only other alternative is not to own a computer that you didn't build yourself, or have custom-built for you, and carefully monitor the license agreements of every piece of software that you put on it.  Even then, you also need to check the agreements on each part that goes into your computer, and make sure that those aren't being 'licensed, not sold' as well - because as Father Xmas explained, it ain't always just limited to software.

It's enough to make a person's head spin to think about it.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2013, 07:35:06 PM »
History informs but should not dictate.  We live in an age where computer ownership is a very real thing for the average person.  Times have changed and now we've got bloated software companies hanging on to that old model because it allows them to stiff consumers without any recourse for the latter.

And you conveniently blow by the actual reason I listed.  When software first came out the only legal framework available was what was being used for musical performances which was licensing.  It was decided that a computer running software was analogous to a musician performing somebody else's music.  It's as simple as that.
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JaguarX

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2013, 12:38:12 AM »


While you've got a point JaguarX, that it's kinda up to the consumer to not enter into license agreements that hold provisions like this, most people aren't even aware such agreements exist, and software companies are in no hurry to tell them.  Can you read a full copy of the software's EULA before you take that software box out of the store?  If you bring it back to the store, opened, and say, "I'm sorry, I refused the EULA of this software, I want a refund" will you get it?  Usually the answer is no, and I'm speaking from experience on that.  I actually tried this once with the Wal-Mart in my old neighborhood and got escorted out of the store.  And yes, the EULA had a provision that stated, "If you do not accept this EULA, return the software to your place of purchase for a full refund."  Fat lot of good that did me, I couldn't prove the EULA said that without booting up the installer, even had I been offered the chance to do so!

Not only is that kind of underhanded behavior common practice, you've also got to consider that some software you just aren't going to get by without.  Let's face it, if you want to play video games, you're going to have to run Windows.  Sure, you can sometimes get around it with linux wrappers and the like, but those aren't perfect by a long shot.  Windows is basically the operating system that professional software companies develop for.  They hold all but a monopoly on the PC gaming market.  Most PCs that aren't custom built either by you or someone you've hired/cajoled into doing so will come with a Windows operating system by default - you've basically accepted their EULA the minute you first boot them up, you didn't have a choice in the matter.  The vast majority of people have no reasonable way of getting around that.  It's something you have to accept if you want to use a prebuilt manufactured PC.

So, not only are most people not aware that a choice needs to be made on whether to accept these agreements, there's a lot of instances out there where you're not given a choice - the only other alternative is not to own a computer that you didn't build yourself, or have custom-built for you, and carefully monitor the license agreements of every piece of software that you put on it.  Even then, you also need to check the agreements on each part that goes into your computer, and make sure that those aren't being 'licensed, not sold' as well - because as Father Xmas explained, it ain't always just limited to software.

It's enough to make a person's head spin to think about it.

Yup. Some stuff there do not see to be much way around it. But Looking at how there are a way around it, and yet still people do not use their' way around it, whether there is a way or not around it, gets kind of moot in a way if people are not using what they know or ensuring that they know even when there is a way out.

Of course the companies are not going to go out of their way to put it front center big bold letters,, cant even install unless ever single word is read. They probably should. And that refund thing, any one ever bothered to go beyond taking it to wal-mart? Or did they get turned down rant rave and shrug and leave it be. If it says that you should be able to return it and get your money back with full refund if agreement is not inline with the EULA, then there is probably a way to get the money back, but not many people probably know how or want to bother with the hassle. And as long as people don't want to be bothered with the hassle, then what will happen and has happened is the same thing that happened with Windows. Eventually a few will get so powerful that it will be the only few options and then there wont be a choice. If people don't take their choice while it's offered, then someone else will. 

With games, there is always a way out. Players just choose to ignore it to play. And of course again, they wont ever know their rights or what they have rights to, if they never even bother to read the info that is there. That is where it has to start at. The player level reading first. Then from there, things can change if people want them to. But if they see the hassle not worth it, then the path will continue. Believe it or not, they need us more than we need them. People do not NEED to play games. But they need players to make money off the games. 

Yeah there should be a posted EULA on the box before purchase. To get that done, there probably have to be  a lobby for it just as there was a lobby for posting movie/game audience ratings on the box. I dont think any game now and days can be sold without a audience rating of E-Ao. But that wasn't always the case. Someone seen issue, they mad their case and the case won and now we have audience ratings on game boxes that is visible prior to purchase.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 12:44:40 AM by JaguarX »

General Idiot

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2013, 11:34:27 AM »
Quote
Yeah there should be a posted EULA on the box before purchase.

They'd have to go back to the old fashioned huge boxes that games used to come in to fit it all on the box, though. And even then they'd still have to write in tiny font and there'd be no room for anything else.

Or they might just finally put the EULA in plain text and cut out the pages and pages of legalese and the random stuff like not using this software to aid in the production or deployment of nuclear weapons. I shit you not, there's a game out there that has that in the EULA. I don't remember which one, sadly.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2013, 11:50:32 AM »
Many people can access the internet on their phones, putting a link to the EULA on the box would be a start so if you cared that much you could look before you buy. That should be a legal requirement for anything that's sold online.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2013, 01:10:27 PM »
They'd have to go back to the old fashioned huge boxes that games used to come in to fit it all on the box, though. And even then they'd still have to write in tiny font and there'd be no room for anything else.

Or they might just finally put the EULA in plain text and cut out the pages and pages of legalese and the random stuff like not using this software to aid in the production or deployment of nuclear weapons. I pancake you not, there's a game out there that has that in the EULA. I don't remember which one, sadly.
Yeah, they could cut down on the pages. Then again, in  some countries where a person can sue for anything, they probably added that in there to cover their bases. Like why do many blow dryers having warning label of "do not blow dry hair while sleep"? well some...person, was blow drying their hair, fell a sleep suffered burns and sued for damages because there was no warning that falling a sleep while blow drying hair would cause damages. Same with how things with a lot  of plastic wrap says, do not allow children to play with. One said do not allow children to wrap their head in plastic. Because some one probably allowed their kid to play with it, something happened, and sued.


But these days maybe a link could work like Minotaur said.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2013, 03:16:20 PM »
Quote
Kaiser: This, honestly, is why I feel so many of us are still pissed off, after all this time.  By treating us this way, NCsoft has demonstrated that they feel no obligations to their playerbase, the people who give them the money that pleases their shareholders, and instead feel that their only obligations are to their shareholders, they people they give their money to.  They'll happily stick the knife in our eyesocket, if it means their shareholders get to see that little graph on Reuters go up.

....but one problem for dear 'ol NC is that ever since this latest stunt of theirs, unless I am greatly missing something their little graph has not been strolling down the backstretch with an easy win. Its been sputtering, stuttering... two steps forward, one step back etc etc.

Another problem is that "I don't give a **** about you, now gimme all your loyalty" kind of does not work really well, especially with Western customers. American businesses are beginning to get this idea re employee loyalty, although they still do not care - but this is a subject for another time. To get loyalty you have to give it; well, we all know what NC's idea of "loyalty" is these days.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2013, 04:14:52 PM »
What's so shocking about CoH's closure, and the closure of so many other NCsoft games (Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa) is that they don't make efforts to ensure the game goes down gracefully and that their players are left with an option to continue playing a game similar to the one they love.  Moreover, the closures are sudden, without warning, and often with only the most cursory explanations as to why.  This leaves players feeling like they've just been dumped out in the snow while taking a warm bath on a cold winter day, with all their clothes still inside.  The only other company I've ever seen to do this is EA (but that's a rant for a different time, and maybe a different place.)

Yeah, that is what really stung - and still stings - about the closing.

August 27: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 28: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 29: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 30: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 31: We're closing the game!  All the developers are fired, so Issue 24 is never coming out! We're not having a special End-Of-Game event to tie up loose ends, we're just going to ignominiously flip a switch in three months! Go away now!  B'bye!

The game went from having a bright future with years of promised content ahead to completely dead.  And then NCSoft refused to sell, refused to even talk further about selling, set our CoH accounts inactive (another blow out of nowhere), and has been ignoring us ever since.

Yes, I'm still extremely angry, and no amount of hemming and hawing about profits or licenses will make me less angry.  I want our game back.

LaughingAlex

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2013, 06:05:37 PM »
Yeah, that is what really stung - and still stings - about the closing.

August 27: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 28: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 29: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 30: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 31: We're closing the game!  All the developers are fired, so Issue 24 is never coming out! We're not having a special End-Of-Game event to tie up loose ends, we're just going to ignominiously flip a switch in three months! Go away now!  B'bye!

The game went from having a bright future with years of promised content ahead to completely dead.  And then NCSoft refused to sell, refused to even talk further about selling, set our CoH accounts inactive (another blow out of nowhere), and has been ignoring us ever since.

Yes, I'm still extremely angry, and no amount of hemming and hawing about profits or licenses will make me less angry.  I want our game back.

It's especially sore for me to, and I'm still angry about it today.  I'm even angrier that people seem to say CoX shut down cause it was doing badly, even though we know thats not true.  It really seems that NCSoft are the single most unethical company to this day, and I'm hopeful they'll fall apart with the next closure(I guarantee molten games won't last long under them).  I actually want some of my money back, even, at this point.  I feel they didn't even try to keep CoX running, likewise, when they announced the shutdown.  I personally think they did it cause they felt it was a blight on their may grindish games of holy trinity bullcrap, in that they don't actually want MMO's innovating.  I mean they even sold guild wars 2 and Arena net to another company which doesn't seem any better(they shut games down to).
Currently; Not doing any streaming, found myself with less time available recently.  Still playing starbound periodically, though I am thinking of trying other games.  Don't tell me to play mmohtg's though please :).  Getting back into participating in VO and the successors again to.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2013, 06:48:32 PM »
Yeah, that is what really stung - and still stings - about the closing.

August 27: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 28: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 29: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 30: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 31: We're closing the game!  All the developers are fired, so Issue 24 is never coming out! We're not having a special End-Of-Game event to tie up loose ends, we're just going to ignominiously flip a switch in three months! Go away now!  B'bye!

The game went from having a bright future with years of promised content ahead to completely dead.  And then NCSoft refused to sell, refused to even talk further about selling, set our CoH accounts inactive (another blow out of nowhere), and has been ignoring us ever since.

Yes, I'm still extremely angry, and no amount of hemming and hawing about profits or licenses will make me less angry.  I want our game back.
You forgot a line:

August 27: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 28: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 29: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 30: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 31: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle! Oh, wait, no! We're closing the game!  All the developers are fired, so Issue 24 is never coming out! We're not having a special End-Of-Game event to tie up loose ends, we're just going to ignominiously flip a switch in three months! Go away now!  B'bye!


They literally did an I24 teaser the morning of August 31st. pancake you guys, NCsoft. That's terrible timing!!
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Kaiser Tarantula

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2013, 06:57:57 PM »
They literally did an I24 teaser the morning of August 31st. pancake you guys, NCsoft. That's terrible, and you're terrible for doing that to us!

Fixed that for you.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2013, 07:50:10 PM »
You forgot a line:

August 27: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 28: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 29: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 30: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle!
August 31: Issue 24 is coming soon!  Here's another little morsel of information to whet your whistle! Oh, wait, no! We're closing the game!  All the developers are fired, so Issue 24 is never coming out! We're not having a special End-Of-Game event to tie up loose ends, we're just going to ignominiously flip a switch in three months! Go away now!  B'bye!


They literally did an I24 teaser the morning of August 31st. pancake you guys, NCsoft. That's terrible timing!!

I understand that games shut down eventually. But all of that (that was quoted) is the reason that I don't trust NCSoft to competently run a game anymore. If Paragon Studios (not CoX) was doing so badly financially, that it had to be shut down, that all falls back onto NCSoft. They're the ones that gave the go-ahead for the projects that Paragon Studios was working on.

I have yet to pick up another NCSoft title. The only one that I would even think about is CoX, on the off chance that they saw how fundamentally stupid they've been and re-open the game.
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2013, 07:58:36 PM »
"Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on."

Originally I was furious with NCSOFT because I thought they pulled a DM rage quit "rocks fall, everyone dies" on Paragon and the game.  Now that we know at least the senior management knew about it for weeks if not months I'm just angry at NCSOFT for not letting PS buy out the game and studio.  I know it's a minor difference in the end.

Would I want to have known the end was possibly near?  Yes but I understand how that would have killed the game on the spot with new players.  So they put on a brave face and kept us excited in hopes for a miracle that never came.  And that did sort of made it worse than if the news came right after a major update.  It's like getting excited about your first bicycle you are getting for your birthday only to have your house burn down the night before.
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Twisted Toon

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2013, 12:39:31 AM »
"Until such time as the world ends, we will act as though it intends to spin on."
Nice quote there. :)

Would I want to have known the end was possibly near?  Yes but I understand how that would have killed the game on the spot with new players.  So they put on a brave face and kept us excited in hopes for a miracle that never came.  And that did sort of made it worse than if the news came right after a major update.  It's like getting excited about your first bicycle you are getting for your birthday only to have your house burn down the night before.
If the game was going to "die" anyway, why not let everyone know about it? It wouldn't have made a single bit of difference if they had told us two weeks or two month earlier. Except, maybe make NCSoft look even worse to the MMO community when they(NCSoft) refused to negotiate with anyone wanting to purchase the IP.
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2013, 05:47:05 AM »
Nice quote there. :)
If the game was going to "die" anyway, why not let everyone know about it? It wouldn't have made a single bit of difference if they had told us two weeks or two month earlier. Except, maybe make NCSoft look even worse to the MMO community when they(NCSoft) refused to negotiate with anyone wanting to purchase the IP.

Because if they wanted to show their masters that the game is attracting new players due to it's F2P status telling the world it's on the verge of shutting down is one way to keep new blood away.  The constant "look what's coming in Issue 24" also generated stories at MMO game sites which could draw in new blood.

And if the miracle did happen and the game was saved, you wouldn't want the news of it's potential closure to linger in the blogosphere.  "Oh I heard CoH closed down, you mean it didn't?  Well that's a shame because I'm now too caught up in fantasy genre MMO #23 to give it a try."
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Twisted Toon

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2013, 11:45:57 AM »
Because if they wanted to show their masters that the game is attracting new players due to it's F2P status telling the world it's on the verge of shutting down is one way to keep new blood away.  The constant "look what's coming in Issue 24" also generated stories at MMO game sites which could draw in new blood.
Which wouldn't have had any affect on whether the game closed or not because NCSoft had already made its decision on the matter. So, all of the hype for Issue 24 could have been construed as false advertising for the new comer that just got the game.

And if the miracle did happen and the game was saved, you wouldn't want the news of it's potential closure to linger in the blogosphere.  "Oh I heard CoH closed down, you mean it didn't?  Well that's a shame because I'm now too caught up in fantasy genre MMO #23 to give it a try."
If that's the case, then we should all just give up on any efforts to bring back any semblance of the game (Not that I'm condoning that we do so). because the game was shut down and any successor will have to deal with "Oh I heard CoH closed down.  Well that's a shame because I'm now too caught up in fantasy genre MMO #23 to give its successor a try." The only way we could have hooked them into trying the successor would have been to have the successor ready for launch on Dec 1st 2012.

Having been on the short end of the stick concerning short notice terminations (on more than one occasion), I prefer having a little more notice. Keeping decisions like that a secret for weeks or months (although, I can understand the Paragon folks having to deal with NDAs and confidences) shows a profound lack of respect for the customers and employees. Of course, NCSoft has continued to show their lack of respect towards the CoX community(as well as Tabula Rasa, Exsteel, Auto Assualt, etc.) by not selling the IP to someone who would give it the care and attention that it deserves. No surprise there.
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2013, 05:03:18 AM »
We all talk about how NcShaft is throwing away money ever since the game closed and the IP is locked away in their vault.  The decision was made quite some time before anyone outside their corporate "outhouse" knew.  They simply needed the distraction of the holiday to be a diversion.  They made what money they could off of us in the meantime.  Shoddy business model, but financially a smart (underhanded) move.  I would not have and did not spend a dime more on those pancakes (edited myself there)  from the moment a shut down was so much as a whisper.
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2013, 06:26:04 AM »
We all talk about how NcShaft...

Haha, that's the best one (NC jokes) i've heard yet!

:D calling them that from now on.
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I just love this quote from Sirocco.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2013, 11:37:37 PM »
I'm rather fond of NCLimp myself.
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Eoraptor

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2013, 08:16:45 AM »
NCflacid?

sounds like a rapper with a personal problem
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2013, 05:51:39 AM »
LOLOL....darn it, now I have an image in my head...
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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2013, 08:32:11 AM »
NCflacid?

sounds like a rapper with a personal problem

That rapper wouldn't be any good live.  He probably would give a terrible performance!

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2013, 10:08:02 PM »
Well, he might just win a Viagrammy for his performance.....
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2013, 03:38:28 AM »
Well, he might just win a Viagrammy for his performance.....

He almost did once. But the concert lasted longer than four hours and he had to seek medical attention.

healix

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Re: Just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2013, 08:03:30 AM »
sorry that he had such a hard time.....


Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.