Hope

[Styrj]

Well, I for one am not holding my breath waiting for NCStupid to give us back our game.  As it stands now, I am putting my money on Valiance Online and Heroes and Villains.  I think these two will offer game play closest to CoV.  Although I may be proven wrong, I get the distinct feeling that City of Titans is becoming a money pit.  That said, I will try the FtP version just to see how it plays.

Here's to HOPE!

[Nightwatch]

Well, I for one am not holding my breath waiting for NCStupid to give us back our game.  As it stands now, I am putting my money on Valiance Online and Heroes and Villains.  I think these two will offer game play closest to CoV.  Although I may be proven wrong, I get the distinct feeling that City of Titans is becoming a money pit.  That said, I will try the FtP version just to see how it plays.

Here's to HOPE!

Why would you think City of Titans is becoming a money pit?

[Illusionss]

Well, I for one am not holding my breath waiting for NCStupid to give us back our game.  As it stands now, I am putting my money on Valiance Online and Heroes and Villains.  I think these two will offer game play closest to CoV.  Although I may be proven wrong, I get the distinct feeling that City of Titans is becoming a money pit.

Please point me to the game that is NOT a "money pit." These games are not cheap to make, the least expensive of them will probably end up costing a million+. By that criterion we could have called CoX a huge money pit.

CoT will probably turn out to be a lot cheaper than that, because no one is making a salary. Money pit: whut....?

[Segev]

Just in response to City of Titans being a "money pit:" This is actually the first time we've looked for any amount of serious funding. We've had a very small - I'm talking less than many people make in a month - budget that has stretched since January. With the Kickstarter, we'll have the first disbursal of major funds towards actual investment in tools and the like that we can use to produce this game.

Now, maybe I am not reading your definition of "money pit" correctly, but to me, the term implies that money has already been thrown at it, and more and more is being asked for to try to salvage what's already been spent and come up short. By that definition, we can't yet be a money pit: we haven't had the initial investment. We have every intention of avoiding becoming one. We know what this ask-for is to go to, and we have plans to start making money in order to boot-strap from this to the rest of the project. There are other avenues we may pursue, as this KS opens doors for us, but for right now, I don't think the term "money pit" can legitimately be applied to our project.

[mr hobbler]

I don't see a money pit.  I see a opportunity for all of us to get back and play together again.  Rome was not built in a day nor was anything else.  It takes time and effort and money to create something and we need to give them a chance.  If for whatever reason it does not work ask yourself this could you have done better ?  If you can then why are not doing it ? When it does work out we will have a city to run in, isn't this what we are wanting anyway ?  So I have always had this philosophy of good things come to those who wait.  I check these boards everyday to see if I can play again and in my heart I know that day will come.

[healix]

[Styrj]

Like I said, I sincerely hope I am wrong about TPP, and that they prove to be as good or better than HaV or Valiance Online.  Also, I'm really looking forward to the new upcoming build for Valiance Online.

[Segev]

I'm not faulting you for choosing in what to put your hopes. I just am curious why you believe "money pit" to be an accurate description, as I'd hope to be able to convince you otherwise (and definitely want to know what concerns people have).

[LadyVamp]

I believe I understand why some may think of this as a money pit.

Any project of such magnitude takes a lot of up front cash unless it has one thing.  But even so, it will still take considerable cash before it's able to begin generating cash and start its long trek towards profitability.  These projects of ours do have that one thing which does lessen but not eliminate the start up money.  That one thing is volunteers.  The programming staff, artisans, musicians, sound people (sorry don't know all the lingo), business managers, project managers, and support staff.  All volunteers as far as I know.  Still, considerable cash will be needed to publish the project and support it.

But let me ask anyone who believes this is a money pit a couple of questions.  If it is indeed a money pit, why did NCSoft publish it, later buy it, and build an entire division dedicated to maintaining it?  And, why did it take them 8 years to kill it if it is a money pit?

Several high level people on this site have looked at the finances this game produces for NCSoft and all have come to the same conclusion that a perfectly fine, money producing game was killed for no good reason.

[JaguarX]

DOnt forget the view of money pit varies. And not always negative connotation per se.

For some COX was a money pit afterit got kileld off. 8 years of putting in and in the end nothign to show for it- money pit.

Others a money pit is something that takes up lot of cash but the returns dont seem worth that cash.

To some money pit is something that is expensive that doesnt actully grow the money beyond what they put in. Like some say Consoles are games even though they get great enjoyment, but those hundreds are gone even if they pawn the console they wont get their money back and still put money into the pit. AKA no matter how much thye put in whether $10 or $8,000 on vast game collection they wont get monetary value back.

And some still tie in with the prior one, think anything that isnt an investment that have actual returns, including all forms of donations are money pits.

And there probably are more that I havent thought of off the top of me head.

[Whyaylooh]

But let me ask anyone who believes this is a money pit a couple of questions.  If it is indeed a money pit, why did NCSoft publish it, later buy it, and build an entire division dedicated to maintaining it?  And, why did it take them 8 years to kill it if it is a money pit?

Not a valid series of questions.  NCSoft didn't publish City of Titans; it published City of Heroes.  And before you say, "Same thing," 1.) no, it isn't, and 2.) it's no more nor less the "same thing" as Valiance or Heroes & Villains, which TDGeorge has stated as having no problem with.  So, it's not the genre that TD sees as a money pit, but that particular project.

The more appropriate question may be, from a business/financial perspective, what makes him think that Valiance and Heroes & Villains have it together better than City of Titans does?

[Illusionss]

Like I said, I sincerely hope I am wrong about TPP, and that they prove to be as good or better than HaV or Valiance Online.  Also, I'm really looking forward to the new upcoming build for Valiance Online.

I have yet to see that either HaV or Valiance Online are anywhere near Kickstarting those projects, so I'm confused as to why you think those games are less of a "money pit" than CoT. Its not even *possible* to throw money at those two games yet, unless I am really missing something.

Cot is our next best hope on the road to getting our avatars back from the dead. If giving them money helps that to happen, I will walk right up to the edge of the money pit and hurl cash in.

Hobbler: I don't see a money pit.  I see a opportunity for all of us to get back and play together again.  Rome was not built in a day nor was anything else.  It takes time and effort and money to create something and we need to give them a chance.  If for whatever reason it does not work ask yourself this could you have done better ?  If you can then why are not doing it ? When it does work out we will have a city to run in, isn't this what we are wanting anyway ?  So I have always had this philosophy of good things come to those who wait.  I check these boards everyday to see if I can play again and in my heart I know that day will come.

PREACH

[Twisted Toon]

Whozawhahuh? 


Translation: Eye are cornfuzzled about teh MWM projekt beeing a munee pit, but knot teh uther two projekts. pleez eksplane?


Translation of the translation: Could you please explain your reasoning behind why TPP by MWM is considered (to you) a money pit, and not the other successor projects? I, and I am sure others here, are confused by your statement.

[JaguarX]

Whozawhahuh? 


Translation: Eye are cornfuzzled about teh MWM projekt beeing a munee pit, but knot teh uther two projekts. pleez eksplane?


Translation of the translation: Could you please explain your reasoning behind why TPP by MWM is considered (to you) a money pit, and not the other successor projects? I, and I am sure others here, are confused by your statement.

Just guessing here, I guess maybe it's because they havent opened up to funding yet. *shrugs*

Me personally, again me personally, once more me personally think overall they all are on about the same level of completeness. Just some have a bit more to show in certain areas than others.

[Taceus Jiwede]

Money pit?  When did necessary funds become a bad thing?  When did funding become a money pit.  So perhaps if you dug a pit, and then said all the money we throw in here is going to go to funding the game then yes its a money pit.  Just like every other investment made ever in the history of ever.  Why is it when something gets money so a team can focus on what they do it becomes a bad thing.  Id rather these guys have money thrown at them, more then they know how to spend.  That way they can spend all their time doing what they want to do.  The best way to keep doing what you love as often as you can, is to get paid for doing what you love.  See how that makes sense?  Money is necessary to fund and keep a game going.  The world runs on money remember?  There is no shame in paying for something you like, and there is nothing wrong with making money for doing something that you love well.  I will play all 3 of the successors.  And I happily donated to MWM.  But if anyone expects these projects to go anywhere without funding then they are delusional

[JaguarX]

Money pit?  When did necessary funds become a bad thing?  When did funding become a money pit.  So perhaps if you dug a pit, and then said all the money we throw in here is going to go to funding the game then yes its a money pit.  Just like every other investment made ever in the history of ever.  Why is it when something gets money so a team can focus on what they do it becomes a bad thing.  Id rather these guys have money thrown at them, more then they know how to spend.  That way they can spend all their time doing what they want to do.  The best way to keep doing what you love as often as you can, is to get paid for doing what you love.  See how that makes sense?  Money is necessary to fund and keep a game going.  The world runs on money remember?  There is no shame in paying for something you like, and there is nothing wrong with making money for doing something that you love well.  I will play all 3 of the successors.  And I happily donated to MWM.  But if anyone expects these projects to go anywhere without funding then they are delusional

Indeed, but from the looks of it, they don't have to worry about getting paid. They are all unpaid volunteers remember?

So I guess that ton of cash now and later should be going 100% to the development costs

[Segev]

You can see on our KS page an explanation where all that money is slated to go. "Development costs" might mean different things to different people, so I will point those who are interested to the KS page and let them make their own determination. Personally, I would define pretty much anything spent towards making the game happen - including, if we had them budgeted, salaries for employees - as "development costs."

However, we do not currently have employee salaries budgeted into what we're asking for. We do hope we can eventually pay some people so that we aren't forever relying on people giving up their nights and weekends for this project; it's draining at best, and we could get a lot more done if some of our developers could afford to spend their "day job" time on this instead of doing this in their off hours. But again, that's something down the line. We are not asking for that at this time, and we hope to not HAVE to "ask" for that but rather to be able to simply do it because we're so successful.

But for now, JaguarX is right: we're all unpaid volunteers, and that is an enormous cost we aren't having to seek funds to cover at this time.