Author Topic: Do we have a plan for if....  (Read 14218 times)

Golden Girl

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2013, 12:48:06 AM »
Incorrect.  It's not their engine anymore - NCSoft purchased everything lock, stock, and barrel - the engine and the IP.  Cryptic would have nothing to say about it.

As far as I know, NCsoft only purchased a lifetime license on the engine for CoH, plus one other project - NCsoft weren't granted the ability to freely redistribute the engine.
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LadyVamp

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2013, 02:06:28 AM »
Actually, so long as no one uses any of nc's code, they're safe from that lawsuit.  If nc does sue, pull out the old case of att vs bsdi.  The ruling from the judge caused a change in the development of code.  bsdi lost (and went out of business) but that's because they used the att code.  Had they removed att's code and wrote their own that did the same thing, they'd be fine.  It's that very reason freebsd, netbsd, openbsd and other bsd derived projects are safe from att's lawyers.  So the story goes many of the bsd developers are ex-bsdi employees.

I'd more concerned they will go after the players using the coh client to connect to an emulator.  They won't take any action until the emulator is running if they do in either case.

Of course the back end could be placed in a country that has no problems telling Koreans to take a long walk off a short pier.
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JaguarX

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2013, 02:13:38 AM »
Actually, so long as no one uses any of their code, they're safe from that lawsuit.  If nc does sue, pull out the old case of att vs bsdi.  The ruling from the judge caused a change in the development of code.  bsdi lost (and went out of business) but that's because they used the att code.  Had they removed att's code and wrote their own that did the same thing, they'd be fine.  It's that very reason freebsd, netbsd, openbsd and other bsd derived projects are safe from att's lawyers.  So the story goes many of the bsd developers are ex-bsdi employees.

I'd more concerned they will go after the players using the coh client to connect to an emulator.  They won't take any action until the emulator is running if they do in either case.

Of course the back end could be placed in a country that has no problems telling Koreans to take a long walk off a short pier.
And even that isn't an Ace  in the hole. A lot of laws dealing with software have been introduced since 1992. Make sure to know the updates prior to going in too. Nothing takes the wind out the sails faster than pulling out a 1992 case then the other side pull out a more in depth more relative case that is more recent.

And lot of time dealing with the legal system in the realm of software and IP, it's like COX RNG. Depends sometimes a lot on the judge and what is presented in the case. In front of another judge or with different material for the case, bsdi might of won. That is why there are many cases in that realm that went either way.

But like any case, the basics is preparation. Go in there with chest poked out as if untouchable, and opponent is stupid, end up walking out deflated lighter in the wallet.

CoyoteSeven

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2013, 03:38:37 AM »
I have a plan. Attack!

saipaman

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2013, 04:31:17 AM »
I think I'd really enjoy CO if the visuals weren't so hideous.  I swear that I get a headache every time I play for more than 15 minutes.

dwturducken

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2013, 12:24:52 PM »
Of course the back end could be placed in a country that has no problems telling Koreans to take a long walk off a short pier.

This seems like a good idea on the surface, but you have to be careful. A lot of countries that have loose copyright laws also have loose everything else laws. There's an inherent lack of stability built into that. It's not all African countries, though. China goes the other way: copyright is loose, but the controls over what you can do with internet access are rigid. Former Eastern Bloc countries are hit or miss, as economic stability is an issue.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, nor am I trying to deflate optimism, but this is probably best saved as an absolute last resort.
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

Cobra Man

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2013, 06:08:11 PM »
I think its going to be a long time before we see an emulator.

This.

City of Titans looks to be the best way forward IMHO.

Thunder Glove

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2013, 06:37:41 PM »
I think I'd really enjoy CO if the visuals weren't so hideous.  I swear that I get a headache every time I play for more than 15 minutes.

I think I'd enjoy CO if it actually ran at 60 frames per second rather than at a rate of one frame every one or two seconds.  I almost re-subscribed last week, but then I logged into my Silver account and played for an hour, and the framerate was terrible.

As for CoT... well, I'm worried it'll have the same problem as CO, especially since "native Mac version at launch" is a stretch goal that they haven't reached yet.

mikenovember

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2013, 08:42:48 PM »
I think that any C&D is more likely to come from Cryptic, as they'd probably be more concerned about their engine being passed around the net than NCsoft would be about an unused IP being shared out.

Most likely, if NCSoft has any brains at all (which may be doubtful... but let's play 'let's pretend')...

NCSoft will allow servers to go up, and they'll allow people to get on board.  The more the merrier.  NCsoft knows that suing for the value of an outdated IP is going to get them minimal income.  No, they'll wait. 

Because for each and every person who plays on the system they can levy a valuation of lost revenue based on the illegal use of their IP.  And then they'll valuate the actual IP as 80 million or so - whatever that insane offer was they through out there.  And they'll say that all those people playing on the Emulator are proof that the IP has that potential, and use the actual logs against you to show they have been damaged.  In this way, it's not just a question of 'did someone violate the law' but 'did they violate the law and were there damages'. 

Then if they really want to be mean - then they'll drag NCSoft into it by listing them as a 'friendly party also damaged' and so on... they will demand damages, and so on. 

That's how you'd do that if you're smart.  If you're stupid, or you don't actually care, or if you just want to protect your IP then you issue a Cease and Desist.  Because that's cheap - it's basically a letter from some guy you pay on retainer to send out the letter.  Costs you basically nothing.  Most people freak when they see something from a law firm and comply.     

But, if your goal is to actually be evil and put a stop to something you don't just send a letter - you drop a legal nuke.  For that you need to make sure you're going to win before you sue.  The easiest way to do that is to prove damages in advance.   Let's face it, if  you're playing on an emulator they already have you red handed for using the IP without their permission.  The hard part is getting the judge not to laugh you out of court for wasting everyone's time on a law suit no one gets anything from.   

LadyVamp

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2013, 01:01:32 AM »
And even that isn't an Ace  in the hole. A lot of laws dealing with software have been introduced since 1992. Make sure to know the updates prior to going in too. Nothing takes the wind out the sails faster than pulling out a 1992 case then the other side pull out a more in depth more relative case that is more recent.

And lot of time dealing with the legal system in the realm of software and IP, it's like COX RNG. Depends sometimes a lot on the judge and what is presented in the case. In front of another judge or with different material for the case, bsdi might of won. That is why there are many cases in that realm that went either way.

But like any case, the basics is preparation. Go in there with chest poked out as if untouchable, and opponent is stupid, end up walking out deflated lighter in the wallet.

Granted.  legal system doesn't always get the best outcome but even an old case sets precedence.  I wouldn't walk in without substantially more if I were a lawyer but as I'm not I prefer to leave the actual battle to them.

That's a case I happen to remember.  had that case not happened or had it gone the other way, we might not even have linux much less the level of success it has enjoyed.
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LadyVamp

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2013, 01:09:20 AM »
This seems like a good idea on the surface, but you have to be careful. A lot of countries that have loose copyright laws also have loose everything else laws. There's an inherent lack of stability built into that. It's not all African countries, though. China goes the other way: copyright is loose, but the controls over what you can do with internet access are rigid. Former Eastern Bloc countries are hit or miss, as economic stability is an issue.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, nor am I trying to deflate optimism, but this is probably best saved as an absolute last resort.

Oh I entirely agree that it would be a last choice.  I'd prefer having a like game that's different enough to survive any legal challenges in a first world country.  ncsoft is just one challenger.  patent trolls are another.
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Mandrake

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2013, 07:09:11 PM »
With how far Icon has come, and how talented the coders are here, I don't think it will take nearly as long as a lot of people think to reverse engineer the server side. It will take time, but it is not going to be your typical 8 years or more like some emu projects out there. I'm talking out of my butt because I have no inside information here, but from the projects I have worked on - none of them have the client side ability to do what Icon is doing. Therefore that means the client is handling a HUGE portion of the overhead and the server is mainly performing world location and update checks on entities and objects. Including user interactions and databases.

I is a daunting task no matter what, but the client side being so much more mature than the other projects I've worked on makes me much more optimistic of the 'new' engine's timeline.

And, yes I'm alive. Just been gone a while for uncomfortable reasons. Great to see that all sorts of things are still on track and some really bursting at the seams!

Take care,
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JaguarX

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2013, 10:53:34 PM »
Granted.  legal system doesn't always get the best outcome but even an old case sets precedence.  I wouldn't walk in without substantially more if I were a lawyer but as I'm not I prefer to leave the actual battle to them.

That's a case I happen to remember.  had that case not happened or had it gone the other way, we might not even have linux much less the level of success it has enjoyed.
Indeed.
And many people give too much emphasis on the outcome and think, "Well Pineapple Software (for example) won, and my case is similar, so that means I should win hands down." And forget and or ignore cases where it went the other way and forget or don't pay attention to how that outcome was reached, the most important part of when studying cases. Sometimes more important than the actual outcome. Sometimes cases get thrown out simply because one side simply didn't show enough, not that their case wasn't valid. Think news and articles going to report why? Rarely. It report it like a sports stat. Pineapple won, Cigar Smoking Big Wigs Inc. lost. And then people assume that means Pineapple was completely undeniable right while CSBW Inc was totally wrong. And any case like Pineapple will automatically win. When 99.4% of the time it was way more complicated than a simple win vs loss, who was right who was wrong when in reality right or wrong have nothing to do with majority of the outcomes and it's more of what can one prove. The one that prove their case better ends up with the favor, right or wrong in reality.


 Many rely on news sources that report the outcome or give a brief over view and think that is it, when it's imperative to study the actual court documents and study multiple cases and see how each ended up at their respective judgments.
Sometimes it takes even looking at the judgment history of the judges as some are innate conservative, some are more liberal, some love big businesses some despise them, some don't give a rat's tail about gamers and think they are cancer of society, and some think small indy gamers are being taken advantage of.
Even with some laws in place now, rarely do the even all of the Supreme court judges all agree on implementation and or interpretation of the law.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 11:05:46 PM by JaguarX »

Ironwolf

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2013, 03:19:55 PM »
NCSoft will defend their IP - if it is in their best interests.

You see if no one is making money from the IP and they are only holding the IP and otherwise the game is dead and in no development....they may not persue it. It might be hard to show actual damage if no one is selling anything.

JaguarX

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2013, 05:03:01 PM »
NCSoft will defend their IP - if it is in their best interests.

You see if no one is making money from the IP and they are only holding the IP and otherwise the game is dead and in no development....they may not persue it. It might be hard to show actual damage if no one is selling anything.
yeah

AlabasterKnight

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 08:11:09 PM »
The longer it rests in its shallow grave, the less value it has.
There's your food for thought.

JaguarX

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 10:08:52 PM »
yeah.

Anyone remember AMC?  Maybe some older folks.

Chrysler owns them still now. Yet there haven't been a AMC product to roll off the line since Jeep Grand Wagoneer.

Someone could build say, an AMC Gremlin in their garage using what ever parts they want. Hell they use all Chevy parts and put Gremlin badges everywhere. Chrysler probably wont give a crap. They could even sell the car they built as a Gremlin to people and still Chrysler wont give a crap. But start the manufacturing of AMC Gremlins and making money off of it, Chrysler probably will sue and probably win, even though they haven't personally used AMC in ages and even longer for the Gremlin name. How much is AMC worth now? who knows. Chrysler could claim they had plans in the year 2019 to sell it for 108 million but the bootleg corroded the exclusive rights value of it by what ever their accounts come up with.

There is a reason why companies are a bit vague if any information at all about what they do with the rights of discontinued products. The value is two prong, what the seller want to sell it for and how much people want it. If Google and Disney successfully approach NCSOFT with an offer, even if NCSOFT turns it downs, that is paper work and shows that the IP is still very valuable, thanks to us.

dwturducken

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 10:22:24 PM »
AMC isn't the best analogy. The purchase was expressly for the Jeep brand, which is still in production. The AMC cars at the time were replaced with new models, partly from Renault and Mitsubishi, and the marque rebranded as Eagle. The cars weren't very good and didn't sell very well. Without looking it up, I can't really go into further detail, but it wasn't that AMC was bought to bury the competition.

I would also point out that many cases where this sort of purchase takes place, it works out well for the acquired property. Alan Moore originally wanted to use the recently acquired Carlton Comics characters for his Watchmen series. Thankfully, DC didn't let him, because they would have been virtually unusable for a decade. And, we got Blue Beetle and Captain Atom, among others, into the Justice League! :D
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."

JaguarX

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2013, 10:43:35 PM »
AMC isn't the best analogy. The purchase was expressly for the Jeep brand, which is still in production. The AMC cars at the time were replaced with new models, partly from Renault and Mitsubishi, and the marque rebranded as Eagle. The cars weren't very good and didn't sell very well. Without looking it up, I can't really go into further detail, but it wasn't that AMC was bought to bury the competition.

I would also point out that many cases where this sort of purchase takes place, it works out well for the acquired property. Alan Moore originally wanted to use the recently acquired Carlton Comics characters for his Watchmen series. Thankfully, DC didn't let him, because they would have been virtually unusable for a decade. And, we got Blue Beetle and Captain Atom, among others, into the Justice League! :D
I wasn't using it as an example of buying to bury the competition. I was using it as example of sometimes even things that haven't been actively used in ages doesn't mean it's free game to pirate and that a company wont or will automatically lose because they are not at that moment using it or express their plan to use directly to the person doing the pirating. And as I said, if they do their own thing, more than likely no one will care but when it comes to the point they pirate to fatten their own pockets, that would probably gain the attention, whether it's in use currently or not.

Thus as I said, regardless of the reason Chrysler purchased them for, if some one was to try and take their AMC rights as their own and make money, they probably wont get too far compared to just building a few in their garage for personal use.

dwturducken

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Re: Do we have a plan for if....
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2013, 11:41:50 PM »
Sorry. I think I missed some nuance in there. :)

Makes me wonder if someone could have gone to Chrysler back in 2008 and offered to buy the AMC brand, tho. ;D
I wouldn't use the word "replace," but there's no word for "take over for you and make everything better almost immediately," so we just say "replace."