Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7286105 times)

Reaper

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14620 on: January 29, 2015, 09:41:29 PM »
There are really 3 possible answers;
1. Yes
2. No
3. Silence

#3 of course is the worst one. When I get a rude tell in CoH I would not answer it ever. Sadly waffles, this sort of deal operates at the speed of business which is months maybe even a year. Its still light years faster than the speed of government. If you really liked CoH, you'll likely play it when it comes back.

As long as we don't reach #2, I think I can wait a while longer...
Patiently lurking from the shadows...

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14621 on: January 29, 2015, 10:30:45 PM »
There are really 3 possible answers;
1. Yes
2. No
3. Silence

#3 of course is the worst one. When I get a rude tell in CoH I would not answer it ever. Sadly waffles, this sort of deal operates at the speed of business which is months maybe even a year. Its still light years faster than the speed of government. If you really liked CoH, you'll likely play it when it comes back.

If #3, NC Soft can be like this comic (replace "Buy Clipboard" with "Propose a Sale") :P


Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14622 on: January 29, 2015, 11:33:41 PM »
Acceptance need not be fatalistic.
I don't know about you, but I plan to live forever.




So far, the plan is working out.
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14623 on: January 29, 2015, 11:59:41 PM »
The best way for NCSoft to look good was to axe PS before the merger.
The main problem with this theory and its various variants is that its not financially logical.  Paragon's numbers were not large enough to be materially significant in the first place, either way.  But if it were, an abrupt shutdown of a game that was generating revenue would be the one thing you don't do during merger or acquisition talks because it then becomes a material event.  You "downsize" and put the game into maintenance mode so the revenue you're booking continues, while your development costs drop to zero, and then you let the acquiring company deal with it after the deal is done.

Theories that suggest NCSoft shutdown Paragon Studios for what is generally termed "window dressing" simply don't recognize that that is not what happens.  Its far more likely for a buyout target to *buy* a company that has revenue, even if it has high costs associated with that revenue, just to claim top-line revenue growth.  There are all kinds of games you can play to hide costs, but you can't make gross revenue materialize out of thin air.

You don't deliberately drop top line revenue if you can avoid it during acquisition talks or when looking for a buyer, period.  Its not a rule you can google, but its a rule nonetheless.  Its financial engineering 101.

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14624 on: January 30, 2015, 12:25:02 AM »
you and the rest of us will all die some day.

I was born 400 years ago in the Highlands of Scotland.....
In fearful COH-less days
In Raging COH-less nights
With Strong Hearts Full, we shall UNITE!
When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
Look to Cyberspace, where HOPE burns bright!

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14625 on: January 30, 2015, 12:48:08 AM »
Also -- and I hate to be the bearer of bad news -- you and the rest of us will all die some day.
Speak for yourself, I have a cryonics contract.  ;)

brothermutant

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14626 on: January 30, 2015, 12:56:23 PM »
I just plan on transplanting my 80 yr old brain in the future into my 20 yr old clone.  ;D

duane

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14627 on: January 30, 2015, 01:54:23 PM »
I just plan on transplanting my 80 yr old brain in the future into my 20 yr old clone.  ;D

Lord Nemesis, the 20 year old did not survive the operation... However we do have this 8 foot steampunk armor laying around...

duane

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14628 on: January 30, 2015, 03:18:23 PM »
The main problem with this theory and its various variants is that its not financially logical.  Paragon's numbers were not large enough to be materially significant in the first place, either way.  But if it were, an abrupt shutdown of a game that was generating revenue would be the one thing you don't do during merger or acquisition talks because it then becomes a material event.  You "downsize" and put the game into maintenance mode so the revenue you're booking continues, while your development costs drop to zero, and then you let the acquiring company deal with it after the deal is done.

Theories that suggest NCSoft shutdown Paragon Studios for what is generally termed "window dressing" simply don't recognize that that is not what happens.  Its far more likely for a buyout target to *buy* a company that has revenue, even if it has high costs associated with that revenue, just to claim top-line revenue growth.  There are all kinds of games you can play to hide costs, but you can't make gross revenue materialize out of thin air.

You don't deliberately drop top line revenue if you can avoid it during acquisition talks or when looking for a buyer, period.  Its not a rule you can google, but its a rule nonetheless.  Its financial engineering 101.

I would be interested in what a cpa would say about software development and the time periods that development costs would be associated versus time periods that sales occur. In the end I know it doesn't really matter because we still don't have the game.  I miss this the city a lot today.

Angel Phoenix77

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14629 on: January 30, 2015, 04:38:24 PM »
That guarantee only means anything based on the assumption that anyone WANTS to buy it.  No business could or would ever guarantee that.

Everything ends eventually.  Even if (when!) CoH comes back and gets revived as v1.5, even if a true sequel follows that, eventually it will end.  Also -- and I hate to be the bearer of bad news -- you and the rest of us will all die some day.
very true. However, I will be reborn one day :D
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Heroette

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14630 on: January 30, 2015, 04:47:21 PM »
I would be interested in what a cpa would say about software development and the time periods that development costs would be associated versus time periods that sales occur. In the end I know it doesn't really matter because we still don't have the game.  I miss this the city a lot today.

Isn't it the investors that foot the bill until the game comes out?  There is time period during development that they are in red.  After the game comes out, then there is revenue to count on and Profit and Loss Statements and Balance Sheets.  But I don't think a CPA cares one way or another.  They just crunch numbers.

Harpospoke

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14631 on: January 30, 2015, 05:26:49 PM »
This is the most ridiculous thing I've read (today).  There's literally no reason for them to do this; even if they did decide that it was professional and appropriate to be this petty, the playerbase (who are also potential customers for any future games they may release) would not be the target of their maliciousness.  If they have no interest in selling it, all they have to say is no.  That's it.  Doesn't matter how much whining we all do, those two letters shut everything down, and they could have done that months ago if they had wanted.

Folks, I know it sucks that we haven't had any real concrete information for a while, but it's been said before, and I'll say it again -- THAT'S GOOD NEWS.  If they deal falls through, you will know.  If it's successfully completed, you will also know.  The fact that we know nothing means negotiations are still happening.
I think it's really unlikely that NCSoft would be vindictive against the CoH playerbase, but I don't think I'll rule it out completely.   If this falls through after all this time, I won't blame anyone for thinking there is something other than "business" behind it.   It might not be my #1 theory, but I'm ok with a "greater than zero chance" outlook.

They do illogical things that seem to be based on emotion or "culture".  We know this.   Why would I then assume they are only acting on logic now?

Is it logical to say "We'll never sell to you"?   That's not "business"...that's emotion.   We're even ok with speculating that NCSoft would want to make sure none of the people "they will never sell to" are involved here. (wild speculation I think)
It is logical to become insulted to the point where it harms a negotiation when you get nasty emails from former players?   That's not "business"...that's emotion too....and it also indicates vindictive feelings toward players.   >:(
Is it logical to become insulted when someone from another country dares to contact you directly instead of getting someone else to introduce you and refuse to listen to a business proposal?   That's not "business"...that's "culture".  It's not good business at all in a world marketplace...especially when you expect someone to know this without informing them.   Frankly it sounds like bullying to me.   And I'll believe that isn't "bullying" when I see NCSoft refuse an audience with someone like Bill Gates because he didn't know their culture.   I looks like they only did it because they were in the position of power.

And how about shutting down a profitable part of your company and fumbling the shutdown to the extent that it hurts your reputation in the industry?   Does that sound like they would never do anything to anger players or that they value them for future games?

I'm seriously not overtly anti-NCSoft...but they haven't done anything to earn any benefit of the doubt from me as a company who thinks logically either.

I've come to think of the length of time on this as a good thing.   It doesn't make sense for it to get this far and then suddenly fail.   So if that were to happen...I would have to start wondering if "emotion" wasn't a part of it from their side again.

Now back to grinding to 100 in WOW......
Level 100???    Holy smokes....that would drive me crazy.

I mean to be honest SOME of the stock-holders were there for ulterior purposes and looking for any sign of weakness in the product to lash out at, basically CoX couldn't afford a hiccup. The enemies were Anti-game-violence groupies who bought mass stock shares via group donations (through a company supporter) in attempt to find someway to kill this 'weak-financially-backed Violent Superhero MMO'. and when they saw the hiccup they threatened to pull out due to a profit decline lots of other backers who were there for money did the same, with the note to kill the low profit MMOs as the only means to keep their business and the meeting being under an NDA so they don't look bad.

I had to do some research into anti-video-game-violence groups for an essay for my masters, turns out they are linked to liberal political groups and only pick on games that won't sacrifice from game quality to include liberal ideologies in context or concept. Seeing as Paragon was all about making a cool superhero MMO they would want no part of any ideological injections into CoX other than those (super-natural ones) they had planned for plot purposes, and therefore were perceived as a threat and targeted via the anti-video-game-violence groups.

it's a really ugly practice "if they wont join you, Destroy them" versus "if you can't beat them, join them"
Ugh...politics.   There are some zealots and extremists involved with both sides.   This would not surprise me at all.

And as a note to the wider MMORPG community for the future, perhaps someone can develop some kind of "guarantee", like the slips of paper in small appliances you buy.

"We guarantee this mmo, if it folds, be sold off to a company that keeps these running, including the character/customer/guild base databases, i.e. no reboot sale where this is wiped."

Then let the presence, or absence, of that guarantee be one factor in customers deciding to buy.
I definitely think that type of thing is coming.   An industry can only anger its customers for so long.   We've seen it in countless other industries when they got to comfortable with "this is the way it is".

I don't accept "all MMO's will end...deal with it".    That's a terrible way to do business with people.   Especially with a product that generates strong emotions with the customers.   Imagine if the makers of Monopoly or chess did that.   People who love those games get to play them their entire lives....as it should be.

As a matter of fact, if CoH comes back...that might be one of the first steps to changing that illogical "Don't get attached to your game" attitude.

Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14632 on: January 30, 2015, 05:39:18 PM »
Level 100???    Holy smokes....that would drive me crazy.
You never played The Realm by Sierra...er...Codemasters, then. They go up to level 1000. Also, they had a 5% Exp loss death penalty. So, it was possible to de-level all the way back to level 1. which, some people did when they were bored.
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

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Harpospoke

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14633 on: January 30, 2015, 05:42:47 PM »
You never played The Realm by Sierra...er...Codemasters, then. They go up to level 1000. Also, they had a 5% Exp loss death penalty. So, it was possible to de-level all the way back to level 1. which, some people did when they were bored.
If it was possible for me to prefer CoH over other games any more...this post would cause that to happen.  :D

Drauger9

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14634 on: January 30, 2015, 05:45:47 PM »
Quote
Level 100???    Holy smokes....that would drive me crazy.

I've been playing WOW off and on for about 3 years (usually in 3-4 spats) so I was already level 90 :).


Quote
I definitely think that type of thing is coming.   An industry can only anger its customers for so long.   We've seen it in countless other industries when they got to comfortable with "this is the way it is".

I don't accept "all MMO's will end...deal with it".    That's a terrible way to do business with people.   Especially with a product that generates strong emotions with the customers.   Imagine if the makers of Monopoly or chess did that.   People who love those games get to play them their entire lives....as it should be.

As a matter of fact, if CoH comes back...that might be one of the first steps to changing that illogical "Don't get attached to your game" attitude.

I personally would like to see MMOs gravitate to an online/offline model. That way if they do shut your favorite MMO down. Then you could still play it offline. Like Diablo 3 ect..

I know that in-order to do that they'd have to make it solo friendly and not MMOs are like that. I guess that's why I'm so attached, to the play with your friends. Even if their offline feature in Fantasy Star Universe 2. Imagine if every MMO had that feature plus an offline mod. Say you could save your friends characters to a folder in your games files. Then when your offline and your playing you can just invite your friends characters to your game while playing offline. The AI would control their characters of course but if done right or in the case of City of Heroes and they was decked out in the best IOs. It could really work.

Or let's take Television for example. There's a station on cable called TVland where they play classic TV shows like "The Any Griffith Show", "Gun Smoke" "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" ect.. Think if there was a company that did that with classic MMOs. Say they had an agreement with all the big publishers. That when their ready to sun set an MMO they sale it to these people at whole sale prices. With servers, software, IP ect... Build in a F2P/Sub model with a cash shop. Put it maintance mode, maybe to the Gold Sub like Sony Online.

There's always away, it's just weither the people involved are willing to put in the time, effort and resources.

I always told my nieces and nephews, "You can do anything you want. You just have to figure out how."

duane

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14635 on: January 30, 2015, 06:50:56 PM »
Isn't it the investors that foot the bill until the game comes out?  There is time period during development that they are in red.  After the game comes out, then there is revenue to count on and Profit and Loss Statements and Balance Sheets.  But I don't think a CPA cares one way or another.  They just crunch numbers.

No, I was thinking more along the lines of valuation, but it's neither here nor there at this point and all stuff in the past.  Well, here's to February and hopefully news soon.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14636 on: January 30, 2015, 08:39:31 PM »
I would be interested in what a cpa would say about software development and the time periods that development costs would be associated versus time periods that sales occur. In the end I know it doesn't really matter because we still don't have the game.  I miss this the city a lot today.

There are fairly well-defined accounting rules to handle long-term R&D.  A lot of this was discussed on the official forums before the game shut down.  Some people theorized that one reason for the shutdown would have been to accelerate taking development expenses immediately, because in the event the studio was shutdown those expenses would no longer need to be deferred or amortized relative to future expected revenue.  However, that seemed unlikely due to US tax law which allowed Paragon and NCSoft US the flexibility to expense or amortize those development expenses at their discretion.  So the shutdown would not create an option that didn't already exist.

I discussed this with a CPA at the time, but I also have a head full of accounting information because I know a lot of accountants, and at one point I used to help them study for the CPA exam (back when it was a lot harder than the cushy thing its become).  I could probably pass it myself, if I enjoyed taking tests for the heck of it (I most certainly do not).

adarict

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14637 on: January 30, 2015, 09:15:27 PM »
You never played The Realm by Sierra...er...Codemasters, then. They go up to level 1000. Also, they had a 5% Exp loss death penalty. So, it was possible to de-level all the way back to level 1. which, some people did when they were bored.

That's why, in the old days in The Realm, you had packs of Jumpers, who would wander around, ganking low level people over and over.  They thought it was fun to delevel players.  Then you had the "vigilante" groups that sprang up and did nothing but gank the gankers.

The funny thing about you bringing up The Realm is, this past weekend, I was cleaning out some stuff in my garage, and found the old CD, with the old dot matrix printed code on the case.  :)  I remember thinking it was SO cool that they had the game on CD instead of floppies.  :)

duane

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14638 on: January 30, 2015, 09:40:10 PM »
I discussed this with a CPA at the time, but I also have a head full of accounting information because I know a lot of accountants, and at one point I used to help them study for the CPA exam (back when it was a lot harder than the cushy thing its become).  I could probably pass it myself, if I enjoyed taking tests for the heck of it (I most certainly do not).

oh no!  Information Technology is so much better than accounting...

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #14639 on: January 30, 2015, 10:40:46 PM »
oh no!  Information Technology is so much better than accounting...

A surprising number of accountants actually eventually become IT professionals.  The combination of a mind used to dealing with procedures and algorithms, a statistical tendency towards professional fascidiousness, and the need to personally learn to use computers and computer software regularly combined with the fact it tends to pay a lot more probably has a lot to do with it.

I on the other hand started with a background in EE and migrated (rapidly) to IT, which is what happens when an EE realizes most EE jobs suck.