Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7286184 times)

Nightmarer

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15460 on: February 27, 2015, 12:35:25 PM »
Huh.  Ok, thanks, I wasn't sure of the specifics.  I just heard rumors that they were nerfed compared to the straight IO versions.  If and when we get CoH back, I can just purchase them outright for my L50s.

Maybe you mean the procs from sets bought on the store worked differently than the ones ingame? That applied to all procs though, not just for purples.-

umber

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15461 on: February 27, 2015, 01:04:43 PM »
That's essentially telling me they wanted more money on top of my sub fee to play everything I wanted.

Before they went free-to-play and introduced a market system, the only means they had to bring in money to support the game was the subscription model.  No granularity, any content they produced would be definition go to all their customers because all customers were subscribers.  With a F2P in-game market, more options opened up.  They could release more optional content and allow the users to make their own decision on what was and was not worth purchasing.  This content would never have become available in the purely subscription model. 

You're wanting to hold the F2P-model game to a "we got everything for 'free'" subscription-model standard but you're cherrypicking which bits of that standard you prefer.  You don't like that we had to buy, say, the Titan Weapons powerset with PP credits, ignoring that the powerset likely never would have existed if we'd stayed in the subscription model.  You cannot have it both ways, the best of both worlds.  Personally I never saw the problem when as a subscriber you were given a certain amount of points per month, just use them for this content you *perceived* as being previously-rightly-free instead of spending them on entirely-new content like booster packs which, again, was content you wouldn't have had access to in the previous model.

Does anyone go to a breakfast buffet and complain there are too many yummy choices?

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15462 on: February 27, 2015, 01:51:48 PM »
This content would never have become available in the purely subscription model. 

I think this is the key point.  A lot of the material that became available for purchase with points likely wouldn't have ever been developed if the game had stayed subscription-only; IIRC the devs actually confirmed that at one point.

I don't believe we were asked to pay for stuff that we would have previously gotten for free; I believe we were given the option to buy some things that we would have had no option to buy previously.  Further, as subscribers, some of that stuff didn't actually cost us a dime.  While I was not interested in kicking in extra cash beyond my subscription (in part because of my finances at the time, and in part because I felt there was plenty in the game for me without it) the subscription points made the odd piece of development (mainly new powersets) that I really wanted available to me, and I was very satisfied as a result.

Aggelakis

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15463 on: February 27, 2015, 06:58:00 PM »
This content would never have become available in the purely subscription model. 
Oh, it could definitely become available! It would just take years and years and years to do. The number of "OK, do it!" goes way up as return investment goes up. "Your subscription rate is stagnant. You don't get to do anything extra."

Seven paid-only powersets were released in the year-and-a-couple-months that City was hybrid-based:
Staff Fighting
Street Justice
Titan Weapons
Beam Rifle
Water Blast
Beast Mastery
Nature Affinity

In that same time, eight powersets were released that were free-to-subscribers - can you think of any other time in the entire history of City of Heroes that FIFTEEN powersets were released in a bit-more-than-a-year (not part of a paid expansion)?? You're REALLY going to complain about that??

If you saved your stipend over that duration, you could purchase all of the paid-for powersets without spending an extra dime. Of course, then you can't get all the other stuff that a goodies-store allows a game to put out at an increased pace... You gotta choose what YOU want your subscription to look like.
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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15464 on: February 27, 2015, 07:05:48 PM »
How many years did subscribers in CoH get everything? It seemed to work just fine.

As was beaten to death on the game forums and others have alluded to, for some people having "everything" was more important than having as much as possible, but others felt - and I believe this to be the vast majority of players - having more was more important than having everything.

Not only did no subscriber have less than they did before the F2P transition, no subscriber was getting less additional content per month than before the F2P transition.  That's quantitatively better in all respects except for the one that says I'd rather the game have very little content and I get all of it than the game have a lot of content and I have most of it.

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15465 on: February 27, 2015, 07:12:10 PM »
Oh, it could definitely become available! It would just take years and years and years to do. The number of "OK, do it!" goes way up as return investment goes up. "Your subscription rate is stagnant. You don't get to do anything extra."

Seven paid-only powersets were released in the year-and-a-couple-months that City was hybrid-based:
Staff Fighting
Street Justice
Titan Weapons
Beam Rifle
Water Blast
Beast Mastery
Nature Affinity

In that same time, eight powersets were released that were free-to-subscribers - can you think of any other time in the entire history of City of Heroes that FIFTEEN powersets were released in a bit-more-than-a-year (not part of a paid expansion)?? You're REALLY going to complain about that??

If you saved your stipend over that duration, you could purchase all of the paid-for powersets without spending an extra dime. Of course, then you can't get all the other stuff that a goodies-store allows a game to put out at an increased pace... You gotta choose what YOU want your subscription to look like.

I do agree with this and essentially that was my perception of the system. I think the counter argument that opposes this idea is they (as in the people who argue against this) believes this is double dipping. If I'm paying the Sub, I should have access to everything regardless. Again like how you say it, they did provide the stipend every month so you can just get the power for "free" (technically you paid 15 dollars a month and if I remembered, it only took 2 month of saved stipend to get a "premium power"

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15466 on: February 27, 2015, 07:16:48 PM »
I do agree with this and essentially that was my perception of the system. I think the counter argument that opposes this idea is they (as in the people who argue against this) believes this is double dipping. If I'm paying the Sub, I should have access to everything regardless. Again like how you say it, they did provide the stipend every month so you can just get the power for "free" (technically you paid 15 dollars a month and if I remembered, it only took 2 month of saved stipend to get a "premium power"
Honestly, my problem with the cash shop was exactly the opposite - I kept wanting throw money at them but not everything I wanted was for sale yet!  :)

MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15467 on: February 27, 2015, 07:36:10 PM »
Honestly, my problem with the cash shop was exactly the opposite - I kept wanting throw money at them but not everything I wanted was for sale yet!  :)

I have that problem too, but an also added bad luck. For example,  I finally get the game on a steam sale that is 33% off, then the next day it is a flash sales for 66% off. >.<

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15468 on: February 27, 2015, 07:56:26 PM »
As was beaten to death on the game forums and others have alluded to, for some people having "everything" was more important than having as much as possible, but others felt - and I believe this to be the vast majority of players - having more was more important than having everything.

Not only did no subscriber have less than they did before the F2P transition, no subscriber was getting less additional content per month than before the F2P transition.  That's quantitatively better in all respects except for the one that says I'd rather the game have very little content and I get all of it than the game have a lot of content and I have most of it.

I was happy with what we got and I had 3 accounts from I6 to the end.

Pyromantic

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15469 on: February 27, 2015, 09:29:20 PM »
Honestly, my problem with the cash shop was exactly the opposite - I kept wanting throw money at them but not everything I wanted was for sale yet!  :)

So...pretty much what most of us are feeling right now?  :'(

umber

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15470 on: February 27, 2015, 09:38:27 PM »
You're REALLY going to complain about that??

The two of us are definitely in agreement, but I'd ask to be a little careful with the pronouns as the "you're" above coming in a reply to my post looks like the critique is being aimed directly at me and not the person we were both (presumably) replying to.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15471 on: February 27, 2015, 09:49:13 PM »
I do agree with this and essentially that was my perception of the system. I think the counter argument that opposes this idea is they (as in the people who argue against this) believes this is double dipping. If I'm paying the Sub, I should have access to everything regardless. Again like how you say it, they did provide the stipend every month so you can just get the power for "free" (technically you paid 15 dollars a month and if I remembered, it only took 2 month of saved stipend to get a "premium power"

I considered a religious argument of sorts, which is to say it was an axiomatic preference, which is fine.  Some people like wings, some hate hats, some are uncomfortable with ala carte gaming.  You can't argue preference.  But some tried to justify that preference on objective grounds, which were generally disprovable.  Some claimed subscribers were in some way "penalized" under Freedom by having things they would have gotten anyway require extra cash.  Several careful analyses showed that the amount of new content subscribers got included in their subscription post-Freedom was equal to or greater than what subscribers averaged getting prior to Freedom which meant the revenue from Freedom was a rising tide lifting all boats: even players that subscribed but did not buy a single thing from the store benefitted indirectly through more content being available.  Some tried to construct more elaborate arguments attempting to show that subscribers were in some way subsidizing the costs of supporting the free players, and thus it was logically deducible that subscribers were getting less resources than before.  All of those fell apart under careful review.

Although it probably isn't a popular notion nowadays, the notion that Freedom was a greed move on the part of NCSoft was also not supported by the facts.  It was NCSoft that, after the Cryptic buyout, radically increased the amount of resources City of Heroes development had to work with.  Cryptic was the company responsible for starving CoH, because they needed their resources to fund development for Marvel Universe Online - which eventually fell through.  When NCSoft owned the game they pumped a lot more resources into the game without increasing its costs to the players.  They continued to sustain that higher level of development for four years before moving to the Freedom model which *still* gave subscribers more content for the same costs.  However we view NCSoft today in terms of the shutdown, we can't fairly accuse NCSoft or Paragon Studios of being greedy without some evidence they tried to make more money for less game, and there's no evidence to support that.

When you eliminate the objective basis for greed, reverse subsidization, and unbundling, you're left with only personal preference as the reasonable basis for objecting to Freedom's ala carte content.  Which is fine, but, invoking my mandatory Spock quote today, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15472 on: February 27, 2015, 09:53:01 PM »
So...pretty much what most of us are feeling right now?  :'(
Well, true, but when the game was active I was pretty much on board with as much Pay To Win, or at least "pay to make your gaming experience a whole lot more fun and convenient" as they would sell me, and I still had a stack of things I wished they would sell me but weren't available in the store.  I was perfectly willing to throw $100 per month at the game indefinitely.

umber

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15473 on: February 27, 2015, 10:09:48 PM »
Honestly, my problem with the cash shop was exactly the opposite - I kept wanting throw money at them but not everything I wanted was for sale yet!  :)

CoH was pretty much my singular hobby for years, throwing some extra money in the direction of my primary hobby was never a problem.  In the history of the game I bought every single powerset, costume pack, character slots, etc... anything they'd let me throw my money at.

Except one pack, think it was the final one, called the... "party pack"?  IIRC the price was a little steep and wasn't a costume/emote combo pack but just emotes?  Didn't mind the money but it felt like the devs were testing the waters to see how much of a cost we'd absorb and I elected to vote with my wallet on that one. 

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15474 on: February 27, 2015, 10:15:14 PM »
CoH was pretty much my singular hobby for years, throwing some extra money in the direction of my primary hobby was never a problem.  In the history of the game I bought every single powerset, costume pack, character slots, etc... anything they'd let me throw my money at.

Except one pack, think it was the final one, called the... "party pack"?  IIRC the price was a little steep and wasn't a costume/emote combo pack but just emotes?  Didn't mind the money but it felt like the devs were testing the waters to see how much of a cost we'd absorb and I elected to vote with my wallet on that one.
Actually, I believe I did purchase that one (I think I wanted one of the emotes), but there were powersets I never ended up purchasing, like the Titan Weapons.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15475 on: February 27, 2015, 10:18:07 PM »
CoH was pretty much my singular hobby for years, throwing some extra money in the direction of my primary hobby was never a problem.  In the history of the game I bought every single powerset, costume pack, character slots, etc... anything they'd let me throw my money at.

Except one pack, think it was the final one, called the... "party pack"?  IIRC the price was a little steep and wasn't a costume/emote combo pack but just emotes?  Didn't mind the money but it felt like the devs were testing the waters to see how much of a cost we'd absorb and I elected to vote with my wallet on that one.

I was with you on that. I bought all the power sets and costume packs, except the thing with all the dances/emotes. It just wasn't one I would have gotten my money's worth with.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15476 on: February 27, 2015, 11:32:10 PM »
CoH was pretty much my singular hobby for years, throwing some extra money in the direction of my primary hobby was never a problem.  In the history of the game I bought every single powerset, costume pack, character slots, etc... anything they'd let me throw my money at.

Except one pack, think it was the final one, called the... "party pack"?  IIRC the price was a little steep and wasn't a costume/emote combo pack but just emotes?  Didn't mind the money but it felt like the devs were testing the waters to see how much of a cost we'd absorb and I elected to vote with my wallet on that one.

Players who believed that that pack was a test to see what players valued and would pay for were in fact exactly right.  I had insider-confirmation on that one.  Because Paragon was in uncharted territory, they were not sure what players would and would not consider worth spending money on.  Remember that there was a lot of tension between players who thought the contents of purchased packs should be valuable enough to be worth spending money beyond subscription on, and players who thought the contents of purchased packs should not be things fundamental to the game that subscribers should get included.  In fact, there was significant overlap between the two groups, and players didn't always see how extremely difficult to navigate those two objectives were.  Sometimes, the only way to know was to try, and see what player reaction would be.

Mistress Urd

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15477 on: February 27, 2015, 11:48:19 PM »
CoH was pretty much my singular hobby for years, throwing some extra money in the direction of my primary hobby was never a problem.  In the history of the game I bought every single powerset, costume pack, character slots, etc... anything they'd let me throw my money at.

Except one pack, think it was the final one, called the... "party pack"?  IIRC the price was a little steep and wasn't a costume/emote combo pack but just emotes?  Didn't mind the money but it felt like the devs were testing the waters to see how much of a cost we'd absorb and I elected to vote with my wallet on that one.

I think I too found the party pack the only one I didn't care for. No costumes, just a bunch of emotes. Wedding pack I was iffy on but I'm glad I got it.

JanessaVR

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15478 on: February 27, 2015, 11:52:23 PM »
I think I too found the party pack the only one I didn't care for. No costumes, just a bunch of emotes. Wedding pack I was iffy on but I'm glad I got it.
I purchased that one to turn many of lace dresses and accessories black and gray for my goth girls.  :)

Noyjitat

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #15479 on: February 27, 2015, 11:55:52 PM »
Did it not occur to you that they were releasing stuff faster than ever BECAUSE people were buying it, and this was not new, they released some costume sets (the wedding pack is the one I remember) on a pay basis before Freedom. That we have no game is not directly CoH financial related, the game was doing OK.

Let's also not forget that we got issues (mini expansions) completely free since day one. Excluding city of villains (which was given to us to us for free with the ncsoft purchase of city of heroes) and then Going rogue (which was eventually part of city of heroes freedom) Dual blades, willpower, arachnos soldiers, arachnos widows and probably some other powersets im forgetting that subscribers got for free.

Now show me another mmo with free game expansions. Even to this day you have to pay for the oldest world of warcraft expansions, none of them are free. If swg was still around you'd have to pay for "rage of the wookies" and "trials of obiwaan" ("jump to lightspeed" became free) and last I checked everquest is still getting paid expansions and all of the previous expansions have to be bought.

People complain about what we have to pay for but look at all we got for free. Granted a world of warcraft expansion is billions times larger than many of our expansions but you also have to wait 1 - 2 years to get a single expansion.