Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7283797 times)

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16760 on: May 05, 2015, 02:54:08 AM »
I feel like there is a very important name to drop in all of this "augumented/robot" technology conversation.

Dmitry Itskov

Not sure who that is?  Don't wanna google search it?  Heres a few links.

http://2045.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Itskov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2045_Initiative

Enjoy

Interesting

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Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16761 on: May 05, 2015, 03:43:04 AM »
Depends on the gameplay of the game in question and how you control the character.

I will say this about "less than a mouse and keyboard"; people play both CO and DCUO on a gamepad at times.  Some, not everyone, just a few here and there.

I play STO with a mouse, gamepad and voice commands. I very rarely have to touch the keyboard. That's about the only game I do that with, though. I haven't quite managed voice commands on ST:TOR. And they just flat didn't work with CoH.
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Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16762 on: May 05, 2015, 04:04:55 AM »
Would be tough to get in voice commands in SWTOR what with all the rage swearing.

Biz

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16763 on: May 05, 2015, 04:05:10 AM »
I'm reminded of a discussion on the CoX forums, where the author managed to hook up a nintendo power glove, wii controller and dance revolution floormap for his powers and movement.

that sounds like waaaaay too much exercise

Sinistar

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16764 on: May 05, 2015, 04:24:54 AM »
I play STO with a mouse, gamepad and voice commands. I very rarely have to touch the keyboard. That's about the only game I do that with, though. I haven't quite managed voice commands on ST:TOR. And they just flat didn't work with CoH.

Agreed, voice commands and CoH didn't mix well at all.  Now keyboard/mouse with programmable buttons made for efficient playing at times.
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When all seems lost in the effort to bring CoH back to life,
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archaist

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16765 on: May 05, 2015, 09:27:46 AM »
The unseen blade is the deadliest.

Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16766 on: May 05, 2015, 10:11:15 AM »
Consider the mouse.  On paper, the mouse as an input peripheral is a horrible idea.  You have to take one hand off your keyboard: this significantly lowers your typing speed.  You can't see what your mouse hand is doing at the same time as looking at the cursor its controlling: this makes it extremely difficult to perform fine control with it.  The space it operates within is generally smaller than the space the cursor functions in, which means there's a significant hit in mapping resolution.  It would be a much better idea to design your user interfaces in such a way to only use a keyboard, perhaps by using extra keys for the functionality you would have wanted the mouse to perform.

Thing is, that's all true, and its also all irrelevant in ways no one could foresee until people actually started designing around a mouse.  It opens the door to the graphical user interface, which is a quantum leap beyond text-based console interfaces.  And yet even after the mouse revolution should have taught people better, the exact same thing happened with touch interfaces.  They have all of the problems their detractors claimed it had: it just didn't matter in the new paradigm they launched.

Sometimes the reason we can't think of a good way to do something is because there's genuinely no good way to do it.  But I believe one day someone is going to crack that nut with smartphones, or at least tablets and phablets, and games we traditionally refer to as triple-A class MMORPGs.  And when they do, it'll seem ridiculously obvious.  It just doesn't seem like it now.  The wheel as a transportation machine seems like an obvious invention also, and yet humans were using wheels for pottery production for hundreds of years before someone got the idea to use it for transportation.  I can almost imagine a pottery wheel manufacturer rolling one to its delivery site, as pottery wheel makers had done for dozens of generations, and then suddenly eureka.

the downside of taking one hand off your keyboard/screen and thus lowering input ability was solved by Gumpei Yokoi when he designed the first button-based hand held games. the problem with keyboard and mouse is they are separate, but if you merge them into one unit side by side or on top of one another then the proximity of them solves the problem, Further more, the problem with tablets is that they operate on a touch screen, in order to properly use the touch screen one hand must hold the device while the other uses the screen, or you must put the device down (as I've seen many many times) and then proceed to use both hands to work the screen, however in doing so you are taking a handheld device and making it leave your hands where it is no longer mobile or handheld any more so than a laptop.

Nintendo fixed this with the NDS by giving buttons on the sides of the touch screen, yet leaving the screen in thumb range. hands did not have to be taken off the device nor did it have to be put down to use the touch screen, at least that was the goal, however the stylus negated this effort forcing people to hold the device with one hand and remove the other hand from it to either touch the screen or use a stylus.

the real problem with touchscreen devices is they are designed for people with 3 arms and hands. either 1 hand to hold it and two to work the touch screen, or two hands to hold it and use the buttons/touchscreen and one to use the stylus.

the google glass, attempted to solve this problem using eyes as the input method on a tablet or phone like Operating system, problems arise with eye tracking software, unless the glass is bolted onto your head, you constantly have to redo the calibration, besides that the system only functions if your pupils are focused on the target, if you relax your eyes the pupil dilates too much and the glass can't figure out where you are looking. these are just a few problems with the glass, the main problem is though we have 2 eyes they work together so in reality they are one input device, they can only focus on one thing at a time.

The question here isn't how to perfect touchscreens, the best usage of a touch screen was the NDS as a /Secondary/ input device to /buttons/ much like a mouse is used with a keyboard. the goal should become how to do most efforts with less buttons and use the touch screen for things buttons can't handle.

Or, why use touchscreens at all? light-gun technology is far quicker and more responsive and more accurate plus it works with any screen, so you don't need expensive touchscreens, you can use older cheaper more durable screen types. plus by working with any screen it removes the negative aspect of 'touchscreen slips' where your sleeve or wrist accidentally presses the screen wrong ETC..

Light gun technology AKA like the Wiimote is the future.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 10:24:34 AM by Joshex »
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

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Inc42

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16767 on: May 05, 2015, 05:20:16 PM »
Light gun technology AKA like the Wiimote is the future.

Honestly I hope not, or at least that technology would have to VASTLY improve for me to see it that way.

There's a book, Ready Player One by Ernest Cline, which explores a concept for a future version of VR games that I have always found interesting. It involves a basic version of the hardware: A visor that tracks head and eye movements, voice, provided audio, things like that, and gloves that you can learn patterns of how to move your fingers to control your avatar, switch so using them fully as hands so your movements of your actual hands are reflected in your avatar's hands, and you can play even very complex games like this. I think this would suffice for a lot of people.

In the book there was also the advanced equipment that enhanced the experience. A full suit and advanced gloves that would try to replicate anything your character felt to your actual sense of touch (turning bullet hits into light punches, but able to give very fine sensations). A machine that will emit smells based on what your avatar is near. An infinity treadmill, so you can actually run around to make your character move.

This is the future I want to see.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16768 on: May 05, 2015, 05:39:40 PM »
An infinity treadmill, so you can actually run around to make your character move.

This is the future I want to see.

If it went that way, most people would never get off the first level of any game.  Imagine playing ANY of the current type of games where you actually have to run to where you want to go...

I forsee many coronary's!

Felderburg

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16769 on: May 05, 2015, 06:36:24 PM »
If it went that way, most people would never get off the first level of any game.  Imagine playing ANY of the current type of games where you actually have to run to where you want to go...

I forsee many coronary's!

You're just jealous it wouldn't work for you since you'd be floating above it.
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Aggelakis

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16770 on: May 05, 2015, 07:05:12 PM »
In the book there was also the advanced equipment that enhanced the experience. A full suit and advanced gloves that would try to replicate anything your character felt to your actual sense of touch (turning bullet hits into light punches, but able to give very fine sensations). A machine that will emit smells based on what your avatar is near. An infinity treadmill, so you can actually run around to make your character move.
Perfect time to spread the Otherland love: Tad Williams' virtual reality series. It's an epic story, following like fifteen people, starting in the real world and diving into dozens of virtual worlds as real as the real one (with the occasional visit to the real world with some of the characters).

There's suits like you describe here, or there's even big vats of liquid you float weightless in, that uses tiny electrical charges to create textures and pressures to simulate your experiences "online". (There's also "neurocannula" - or, basically, plugging the internet directly into the back of your neck, but that tech isn't as interesting to me.)

The first book is City of Golden Shadow. It's really fantastic. Four books, each over a thousand pages, epic science fiction/fantasy/cyberpunk/WW2/cartoon/omg so many different worlds. It's my absolute favorite series.
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Inc42

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16771 on: May 05, 2015, 07:11:39 PM »
If it went that way, most people would never get off the first level of any game.  Imagine playing ANY of the current type of games where you actually have to run to where you want to go...

I forsee many coronary's!

It would be a tough transition people for a lot of people, but can you imagine if those of us who play for 3-7 hour sittings spent all that time even walking? After a year or two gamers would have a totally new image.

The first book is City of Golden Shadow. It's really fantastic. Four books, each over a thousand pages, epic science fiction/fantasy/cyberpunk/WW2/cartoon/omg so many different worlds. It's my absolute favorite series.

I am looking into this RIGHT now, thanks!

Cailyn Alaynn

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16772 on: May 05, 2015, 07:22:20 PM »
If it went that way, most people would never get off the first level of any game.  Imagine playing ANY of the current type of games where you actually have to run to where you want to go...

I forsee many coronary's!

I foresee many disabled people being REALLY upset.
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FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16773 on: May 05, 2015, 07:36:05 PM »
You're just jealous it wouldn't work for you since you'd be floating above it.

IDDQD :P

FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16774 on: May 05, 2015, 07:37:52 PM »
After a year or two gamers would have a totally new image.

Indeed they would!


Surelle

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16775 on: May 05, 2015, 07:42:35 PM »
Indeed they would!

Aw hey now, maybe things would go the opposite way and everybody would wind up more physically fit!   :D

FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16776 on: May 05, 2015, 07:56:03 PM »
Aw hey now, maybe things would go the opposite way and everybody would wind up more physically fit!   :D

Have you SEEN the average gamer?


MM3squints

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16777 on: May 05, 2015, 08:06:09 PM »
Have you SEEN the average gamer?



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Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16778 on: May 05, 2015, 08:08:55 PM »
I feel like there is a very important name to drop in all of this "augumented/robot" technology conversation.

Dmitry Itskov

Not sure who that is?  Don't wanna google search it?  Heres a few links.

http://2045.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Itskov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2045_Initiative

Enjoy

Yeah.  Not going to happen, at least not on that timeline.  Technology ... fantasicsts I guess they are, seem to like to presume that because technological progress seems to be accelerating, its all magic wands and immortality in a couple of years.  They seem to forget that while our computer technology makes even the wildest speculations of the past seem tame, we still aren't all flying to work on jetpacks.  A big part of the problem is simply that technology doesn't advance in a vacuum.  It advances as part of an environment that includes strong impetus to develop that technology.  In other words, it takes money and resources on a vast scale.  Computer technology and microprocessor technology is something humanity has literally spent trillions of dollars on collectively over the last century, and its used by billions of people.  There is no such environment for jetpacks or immortality robots.

We often assume that high technology is an inexorable ratchet forward, but that's not true.  We had a working launch platform to get to Mars forty years ago.  It was called the Saturn V and it took us to the moon.  We don't have one today, and we can't just go back to the original blueprints and make one.  There are no straight lines from the most influential modern inventions - the automobile, the airplane, the digital computer - and how they ended up being adopted in a widespread manner.  We're not going to invent viable cybernetics on a Monday and five years later on a Tuesday Robocops are going to be walking the streets.  In between those two events, assuming they happen at all, will be decades of technological, industrial, legal, and social tangles.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #16779 on: May 05, 2015, 08:16:35 PM »
Or, why use touchscreens at all? light-gun technology is far quicker and more responsive and more accurate plus it works with any screen, so you don't need expensive touchscreens, you can use older cheaper more durable screen types. plus by working with any screen it removes the negative aspect of 'touchscreen slips' where your sleeve or wrist accidentally presses the screen wrong ETC..

Traditional lightguns used the CRT scan beam to determine pointer direction: they don't work on modern flat panel displays.  Modern "light guns" are not really the same thing and typically use external positioning equipment like the Wii's infrared bar.  That's extra equipment you have to deploy unless you can convince the computer monitor industry to standardize on a technology and build them into all monitors.

Light guns as UI device have the basic problem of aiming: the technology can be made arbitrarily precise but the average human being cannot be as accurate with a gun-style pointer as they can be with a mouse because experiments show most people's hands are simply not steady enough.  The mouse doesn't require the same degree of hand-steady because its resting on the tabletop.