Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7210802 times)

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #320 on: April 08, 2014, 10:40:33 PM »
Is there a defined distinction between the game IP and the game engine for CoH?
Yes. The game engine is the code of the game. The IP is the content, the look, and the story of the game.

You can get one but not the other. Creating a new game (or reintroducing an old game) with one does not violate anything regarding the other.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

HEATSTROKE

  • Lovin' bein' an
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #321 on: April 08, 2014, 11:50:20 PM »
 To me I say let things take their course. I applaud Ironwolf making an effort.. if you never even try you never have even a sliver of hope to succeed.

Seethe

  • Underling
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #322 on: April 09, 2014, 01:45:33 AM »
I thought Cryptic owned the engine and only let Nc use it.

That certainly could be true.  Often times, when a company purchases any sort of product, they take everything.  NCSoft bought a brand new studio and most the the CoH Devs along with the game.  It wouldn't take much for NCSoft to look at all the code and reverse engineer it with enough changes.  It's more likely that NCSoft purchased it included with the game and is sitting on that technology for another day.


Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #323 on: April 09, 2014, 03:26:42 AM »
That certainly could be true.  Often times, when a company purchases any sort of product, they take everything.  NCSoft bought a brand new studio and most the the CoH Devs along with the game.  It wouldn't take much for NCSoft to look at all the code and reverse engineer it with enough changes.  It's more likely that NCSoft purchased it included with the game and is sitting on that technology for another day.
NCsoft bought a license for the Cryptic engine 'in perpetuity', meaning they could use it for CoH for as long as they needed to, and were allowed to add to/change/remove from it with impunity.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Cobra Man

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 154
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #324 on: April 09, 2014, 07:49:47 AM »
Yes. The game engine is the code of the game. The IP is the content, the look, and the story of the game.

You can get one but not the other. Creating a new game (or reintroducing an old game) with one does not violate anything regarding the other.

In the case of CoH the lines between the 2 appear to be not so clear - if I'm understanding Codewalkers post correctly?



"Except that there's no difference between the two. The code is the engine is the engine is the code.

COH is not like most games these days where they buy a prebuilt engine and add their own logic on top of it, often managed code like C# and Java, or even JavaScript.

When it was developed, MMOs were in their infancy. No suitable engine for such a game existed. The engine that was created for COH has no separation from the game itself. All of the logic is hardcoded into the engine, since it's not an off the shelf product -- it's something that was developed exclusively for COH.

It later went on to become the Cryptic engine and power CO, Star Trek: Online, and Neverwinter, but only after Cryptic spent a large amount of effort (likely several developer-years) to remove most of the COH-specific aspects of it and make it useable for other things.

Long story short, you won't find any code that can be purchased or transferred that isn't part of the engine. You might get some data files like Excel spreadsheets with powers numbers, but nothing that can be dropped into a game engine. You're going to be reimplementing everything from scratch.

That said, if someone wants to acquire the IP, I still think it's a good idea. I'll say "Good luck with that" to the idea of transplanting it to a different engine, but even if that fails, all is not lost. Getting the rights out of NCSoft's hands and into someone's who may be less likely to cause legal trouble for certain projects could be a good thing"


Does that mean if someone acquired the IP to CoH they could reissue a preexisting version of the game as it was prior to closure?

That may take getting NCsoft to hand over all the game code - if they still have it .........


« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 07:58:29 AM by Cobra Man »

Cailyn Alaynn

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 604
  • Never give in.
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #325 on: April 09, 2014, 08:05:55 AM »
In case anyone would like to see an idea of what Atlas Park looks like in a newer game engine...
Unreal Engine 4, to be precise.

"Let's get dangerous..."
Lead Developer and Master of Mischief - Revival Project.
Revival website: APR.Pc-Logix.com

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #326 on: April 09, 2014, 09:00:25 AM »
Does that mean if someone acquired the IP to CoH they could reissue a preexisting version of the game as it was prior to closure?

That may take getting NCsoft to hand over all the game code - if they still have it .........
No. That's not what I said. I said you can do one without the other. They could release the game aesthetically and content/story-wise exactly the same (or mostly the same, anyway), using some other engine. That doesn't mean it wouldn't take a lot of work to do so.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Fleur_uk

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
  • @Fleur_Eriss
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #327 on: April 09, 2014, 09:03:25 AM »
In case anyone would like to see an idea of what Atlas Park looks like in a newer game engine...
Unreal Engine 4, to be precise.

I have to say..... I like it :)  Would flying and jumping mechanics work the same?  (I am 0% techie) Thank you Irish girl! I think it looks fab xx

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #328 on: April 09, 2014, 01:15:27 PM »
Sorry folks I have been away from the thread a few days as I have a new house, barn and 7 acres of land to tend to!

Understand you could get the code and NOT use the same engine. You could convert it and have all of the same mechanics and even more. The good news - things are moving forward. They have been given a price for the game - I don't know what that price is but it is within a decent range apparently.

I honestly don't have a time period but the folks doing this love the game as much as we do.

OzonePrime

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 376
  • Never Give Up! Never Surrender!
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #329 on: April 09, 2014, 01:20:59 PM »
Sorry folks I have been away from the thread a few days as I have a new house, barn and 7 acres of land to tend to!

Understand you could get the code and NOT use the same engine. You could convert it and have all of the same mechanics and even more. The good news - things are moving forward. They have been given a price for the game - I don't know what that price is but it is within a decent range apparently.

I honestly don't have a time period but the folks doing this love the game as much as we do.

Good news! Thanks for all of your efforts, Ironwolf! Thanks to the others involved! :)
 


Thunder Glove

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 992
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #330 on: April 09, 2014, 01:39:10 PM »
Sorry folks I have been away from the thread a few days as I have a new house, barn and 7 acres of land to tend to!

Understand you could get the code and NOT use the same engine. You could convert it and have all of the same mechanics and even more. The good news - things are moving forward. They have been given a price for the game - I don't know what that price is but it is within a decent range apparently.

I honestly don't have a time period but the folks doing this love the game as much as we do.

Again, as has been said by people who understand the game coding in detail, the "code" and the "engine" for CoH are not separate things.  The CoH engine is not like modern game engines (like, say, the Unreal engine), which are modular and designed to be used for multiple games; the CoH engine is built for CoH and only for CoH, and most of the game code is hard-coded directly into the engine and can't be just taken out and used separately.

Therefore, if NCSoft keeps the rights to the engine, they also keep the code, because the two are one and the same.  Buying just the IP gives them the rights to use the background fluff like character names and world history, and nothing else.  A new game would have to be built almost entirely from scratch.  Mechanics may or may not be the same, because they'd have to be coded from the ground up.

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #331 on: April 09, 2014, 01:44:45 PM »
Please blame me for any misunderstanding of what they are trying to get from NCSoft. I don't know the full picture but they do have a price and are contacting the person who has the power to sell it.

Again any errors are mine and I don't want to appear a hero or get any credit. I did someothing really simple - I was contacted by the former TFHM team and given their information.

Then I contacted some other folks who had been in on either the original efforts to buy the game or other folks who tried to buy it. I then got all of the information together and published as much of it as I could without going over the line and a few times I was treading thin ice. Other folks read the information - verified it and decided they could approach NCSoft.

I am out of the direct loop now but the folks let me know a general idea on how things are going and for that I am very grateful and I am NOT going to steal their thunder or put more pressure on them by them having to answer a bunch of emails or posts. They are moving forward and it looks good - but we have been in the same boat n the past and it fell apart, so I am excited that another effort is being made and please again understand I found the torch flickering in the night and just fanned it again.

Now some others have picked it up and hopefully can restore the game for us!

BenshowSly

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #332 on: April 09, 2014, 02:05:11 PM »
Please blame me for any misunderstanding of what they are trying to get from NCSoft. I don't know the full picture but they do have a price and are contacting the person who has the power to sell it.

Again any errors are mine and I don't want to appear a hero or get any credit. I did someothing really simple - I was contacted by the former TFHM team and given their information.

Then I contacted some other folks who had been in on either the original efforts to buy the game or other folks who tried to buy it. I then got all of the information together and published as much of it as I could without going over the line and a few times I was treading thin ice. Other folks read the information - verified it and decided they could approach NCSoft.

I am out of the direct loop now but the folks let me know a general idea on how things are going and for that I am very grateful and I am NOT going to steal their thunder or put more pressure on them by them having to answer a bunch of emails or posts. They are moving forward and it looks good - but we have been in the same boat n the past and it fell apart, so I am excited that another effort is being made and please again understand I found the torch flickering in the night and just fanned it again.

Now some others have picked it up and hopefully can restore the game for us!

I don't mean anything personal, Ironwolf, but in front of those news, I always have a bit of skepticism. It doesn't mean I don,t applaud your efforts, it doesn,t mean I don't appreciate what you do.

However, I have to admit that I have a bit of hope building inside me, trying to keep my head cool about it. I hope things will end up working and, despite the skepticism I might have, I continue to support your efforts. :)

Ironwolf

  • Stubborn as a
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,503
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #333 on: April 09, 2014, 02:20:08 PM »
I really do feel the same way.

This weekend I was extremely busy hanging a new 12x12 barn door, mowing 7 acres and doing general winter pickup and so I didn't get on the computer for more than a few minutes. I logged in this morning to see that things are looking good - but in all sales there may be a hitch that causes it to fall through. In this case if it does fail - I think we will know why and if it can be worked around in a different effort.

I really do wish I could share everything but the reason people are telling me stuff is that I do filter it.

Fleur_uk

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
  • @Fleur_Eriss
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #334 on: April 09, 2014, 02:35:26 PM »
Please blame me for any misunderstanding of what they are trying to get from NCSoft. I don't know the full picture but they do have a price and are contacting the person who has the power to sell it.

Again any errors are mine and I don't want to appear a hero or get any credit. I did someothing really simple - I was contacted by the former TFHM team and given their information.

Then I contacted some other folks who had been in on either the original efforts to buy the game or other folks who tried to buy it. I then got all of the information together and published as much of it as I could without going over the line and a few times I was treading thin ice. Other folks read the information - verified it and decided they could approach NCSoft.

I am out of the direct loop now but the folks let me know a general idea on how things are going and for that I am very grateful and I am NOT going to steal their thunder or put more pressure on them by them having to answer a bunch of emails or posts. They are moving forward and it looks good - but we have been in the same boat n the past and it fell apart, so I am excited that another effort is being made and please again understand I found the torch flickering in the night and just fanned it again.

Now some others have picked it up and hopefully can restore the game for us!

Ironwolf  :)  Thank you so much for passing on what information you've been able to, and also for fanning that spark.  I am trying so hard, very hard not to get too excited.  But I am will remain hopeful, I'm so glad that there are others out there that love and miss this game!  If you talk to those responsible for carrying your spark forward soon, please thank them for the efforts and we are behind them.
Hope your barn door came out nicely and massive lawn :)  Thank you again for being so kind to keep us in the loop, hoping beyond hope all will go well for our game and look forward to your next post.  xx

healix

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,695
  • Every good friend was once a stranger
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #335 on: April 09, 2014, 03:33:19 PM »
I am hoping, wishing and praying for any success of getting our game back. This is the best thing I have heard in a while!
Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

Super Firebug

  • New Efforts # 20,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 828
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #336 on: April 09, 2014, 03:35:00 PM »
Regarding the "engine vs IP" question, here's how I understand it (borrowing the previous example of the word-processor document):

The engine could be compared to a word-processing program, such as Notepad, Wordpad, Word, etc., and the IP could be compared to a document that was created in a word processor. With some word processors, it's possible to save the document in a proprietary format (one that only that word processor uses, and few others understand), such as OpenOffice's .odt format. If you open an .odt document in Notepad, you get gibberish, but a .txt document made in Notepad can be read by just about any word processor. Some word processors can try to convert a foreign format into one that they can more-easily use, but there are times when a word processor will simply choke on a foreign format, and be unable to do anything with the document.

NCSoft's letting go of everything but the engine would mean that we would have to find a compatible replacement "word processor" for our newly-acquired "document". And, from what I've been reading, that wouldn't be impossible, but the IP was written for the original engine, so the "document" would need to be adapted, which would be a lot of work.

Is that analogy close, or am I totally misunderstanding?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 03:46:14 PM by Super Firebug »
Linux. Because a world without walls or fences won't need Windows or Gates.

Relitner

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 196
  • ree-LITE-ner
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #337 on: April 09, 2014, 03:35:54 PM »
I really do feel the same way.

This weekend I was extremely busy hanging a new 12x12 barn door, mowing 7 acres and doing general winter pickup and so I didn't get on the computer for more than a few minutes. I logged in this morning to see that things are looking good - but in all sales there may be a hitch that causes it to fall through. In this case if it does fail - I think we will know why and if it can be worked around in a different effort.

I really do wish I could share everything but the reason people are telling me stuff is that I do filter it.

I don't know which of these two things I envy you least- having to mow seven acres, or being the filter for this kind of information. Either way, thank you for the fun distraction! My leasure time (and many others, I suspect) would be re-energized by a rebirth of Paragon City.
in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti amen

Super Firebug

  • New Efforts # 20,000!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 828
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #338 on: April 09, 2014, 03:36:10 PM »
(duplicate post removed)
Linux. Because a world without walls or fences won't need Windows or Gates.

ShadowMokadara

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 67
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #339 on: April 09, 2014, 04:11:37 PM »
Hell will freeze over as I make a post that isn't ultimately negative. Glad to hear about the efforts, Ironwolf.