New efforts!

[Noyjitat]

The 'logic' to it was that that was what other free-to-play games (including their main competitor at the time, Champions Online) were doing. I didn't like the change either (or the new tutorial) as it made CoX seem like it was copying CO.

The new tutorial in CO is almost identical to the original tutorial in CO... The only difference being they took away the ceremony where the mayor presents you the key to millenium city and you no longer get to choose whether to goto canada or the desert... Which now the desert and canada lowbie areas are such a freaking joke. Back then you arrived with fewer powers and now you arrive with more than you really should have and the content is pointless for anything but storyline and easy leveling.

[P51mus]

However, if there were a mod that would tell you where a green patch would appear in the Keyes iTrial before it appeared, well... I'd call foul (and I hated getting that badge... a lot).

If it's anything like the WoW raid mods, all it'll give you is a timer telling you when the next pool will show up, not where.   Just makes it easier to get ready for when the next thing pops up. 

[SpectaPhantom]

No mods. While some mods are great most mods just make everything simple. It makes the game less immersive with all the bells and whistles. Not to mention ones like recount come in and really just destroy everything. Becoming mandatory and what not.

If it's anything like the WoW raid mods, all it'll give you is a timer telling you when the next pool will show up, not where.   Just makes it easier to get ready for when the next thing pops up. 

Eh that's the point. It takes some of the thrill out of it if you are ready to move. Plus, DBM, the mod you're talking about is mandatory in raids. You can't raid without it. No one would take you. That hurts game play.

As for hacking I have no idea on anything relating to it but I assume it's decent. I just know that if gold hackers want in, they'll get in. I know Wildstar had a major problem with them. But that's a completely new engine. If game engines even involved in stuff. I would bet it's more to do with server tech or what the client side does vs server side.

[MWRuger]

The new tutorial in CO is almost identical to the original tutorial in CO... The only difference being they took away the ceremony where the mayor presents you the key to millenium city and you no longer get to choose whether to goto canada or the desert... Which now the desert and canada lowbie areas are such a freaking joke. Back then you arrived with fewer powers and now you arrive with more than you really should have and the content is pointless for anything but storyline and easy leveling.

If I remember right, the reason that the tutorial and the introductory arc were changed is due to the launch of Freedom. They wanted a more consistent experience to introduce new players to the game. That was why the shooting stars arc is filled with helpful advice veteran's don't need.

I think it's important to keep in mind that not every bit of content added, every change made to mechanics and every tweak/nerf is about you or for you. I think the devs did a pretty good job of catering to our wants/needs/demands but sometimes they made things we might not want or like or need.

If can you imagine the new lowbie content from the eyes of someone who had never played the game before, it is a vastly improved experience and far more in line with modern design philosophy. Want an example? Look at how long you continue the in game tutorial in Bioshock. They introduce the last major system in Arcadia, about a 1/4 through the game.

Now I can see why veterans might have found it pointless and trite (i certainly found the original origin arcs that way) along with shooting stars, but it wasn't aimed at us. I doubt very many of the people it was meant for are posting here or even following this thread, but just consider that NONE of the intro material is every needed past the first time you run it.

If you alt, the fact is that you will be repeating content even in a game as deep as CoH. But if I've got to repeat something I's rather it have some meat on the bones rather than anemic, vague missions spammed.


PS. Just quoted you to keep this reply in the general topic. Agree with every thing you said. Completing the first part of the Canadian Wilderness was a challenge when CO launched. I enjoyed it. I wish they had kept in that vein rather than the Lockbox Bonanza that CO has become.

[Solitaire]

I couldn't disagree more.

I feel like mods can actually destroy a game.  There were all types of timers and damage calculators, and other plug-ins in TSW that became expected pieces of kit for serious folks.  I forget what the end-of-arc missions were called.  But they were similar in mechanics to CoH Trials in which the principal action takes place on a single map, and ends with a boss confrontation that often has do-the-wrong-thing-and-insta-die mechanics.  These could be accessed by certain mods, and it allowed folks to get ready for them and have certain powers queued up ahead of time allowing people an insurmountable advantage over folks who didn't have them.  As such, the forum community began to talk as though everyone used these.  Personally, I felt they were cheating and refused.

They weren't cheating... because you weren't circumventing the game, but they seemed to defeat the spirit of those combat events.  They were MEANT to be difficult and force you to pay attention to the visual cues and move and attack accordingly.  I never actually played the game long enough to get beyond beating the second or third one of these "Trials" but some of the endgame ones were pretty punishing.

TL, DR:  Mods that alter the visual aesthetics of a game are cool, ones that give users a drastic advantage in game-play over others is not, IMO.  So, in CoH terms, the VidiotMap mod was awesome and I approved of it because all it did was cut out the middle man of using the Wiki to find all of the completely out-of-the way badges that you needed for the various accolades.  However, if there were a mod that would tell you where a green patch would appear in the Keyes iTrial before it appeared, well... I'd call foul (and I hated getting that badge... a lot).

Can't remember but were VidiotMap & Herostats one of the same thing or separate? If I'm remembering correctly VidiotMap was for badge collecting and showed all badge locations as well as kill x locations, were as Herostats confirmed when badges were obtained, most likely more to it but can't remember.

[okami]

I couldn't disagree more.

I feel like mods can actually destroy a game.  ...

Seconded. I loved that CoH didn't have a Deadly Boss Mods.

[Serpine]

Seconded. I loved that CoH didn't have a Deadly Boss Mods.

I often think it was sort of a chicken and egg thing: The complexity of encounters increased to counteract the advantage of DBM and the added complexity made it increasingly required that you had DBM. Since CoH didn't have such a product raids never needed to turn into 40 man synchronized dance numbers to keep them interesting.

One thing I can say in the favor of things like DBM is they did remove some of the need for having a strong computer, excellent connection, and split-second timing. While it evolved into a requirement, it did allow a number of people who otherwise would not ever be able to contribute to a raid to function and thus enjoy that aspect of the game. Though once again, if the battles were more fault tolerant that wouldn't have been an issue.

Not to mention ones like recount come in and really just destroy everything.

Recount seriously? I really don't see how something that did damage and healing total comparisons (something you could just as well determine in CoH if you dumped the combat log and ran it through some filters) could be nearly as destructive to play as things like DBM, Decurse, or Healbot. Yeah I guess some people used it as a tool to judge / exclude people, but if you are underperforming enough in a team / raid to provoke others to do that, you probably want to figure out what you are doing wrong or find a crowd less focused on optimization.

[Thirty-Seven]

Yeah I guess some people used it as a tool to judge / exclude people, but if you are underperforming enough in a team / raid to provoke others to do that, you probably want to figure out what you are doing wrong or find a crowd less focused on optimization.

While I don't know what all the mods you mention actually WERE,  I feel I should comment on this line of thought.

Mods that allow you to track the numbers of OTHER players (which IIRC, some in TSW did), just gave uptight jerkholes one more excuse to kick someone or ridicule a build.  We didn't have much of that in CoH, thank deity, but what of we did have was PLENTY.  The last thing they needed was a number they could throw around to help define who in a League was "underperforming."

Also, this helps the definition for what constitutes underperforming or "bad play" creep ever up and up until anything below optimum could conceivably construed as "not good enough."

However, this is a pretty moot and unproductive line of logic since first, we need a game to even play, and second, it is highly unlikely that anything so intrinsically linked to the code as modding will be made available to us should the neo-devs even figure out how to change ANYTHING in the code-base at all.

[W]ere VidiotMap & Herostats one [and] the same thing or separate?

They were separate things, but they were both available through the same site, IIRC.  VidiotMaps was simply a texture replacement for all of the maps in the game that showed locations of all Exploration badges, GM spawn points, and the locations and level ranges of almost all villains in a zone (as well as the paths in Perez's, Grandville's and Eden's mazes/tunnels).

Herostats used to be used before Sentinel to verify badge counts for a badge tracking site.

[Serpine]

However, this is a pretty moot and unproductive line of logic since first, we need a game to even play,

Doesn't any post about what could/should/couldn't/shouldn't be appropriate in a future version of CoH hinge on CoH actually existing again? I'll happily move such theorizing to another thread if required, but so far its been pretty much open season in here.

it is highly unlikely that anything so intrinsically linked to the code as modding will be made available to us should the neo-devs even figure out how to change ANYTHING in the code-base at all.

I was assuming the topic of mods was related to a theoretical CoH2. I certainly would hope the future devs can change things in that code base, since they would likely be writing it largely from scratch.

[Thirty-Seven]

Doesn't any post about what could/should/couldn't/shouldn't be appropriate in a future version of CoH hinge on CoH actually existing again?

Well, yeah, of course.  I largely added that so that no one got TOO upset about my conclusions.  No need to move elsewhere as this thread has been pretty "open season" for the most part.

I was assuming the topic of mods was related to a theoretical CoH2. I certainly would hope the future devs can change things in that code base, since they would likely be writing it largely from scratch.

Ahhh, I came into the convo thinking only about the re-launch.  While I would advocate for more adaptability in the UI in terms of modding... I don't really think most of that kinda stuff should happen in a CoH2 either, for many of the same reasons I already mentioned.

[Serpine]

I don't really think most of that kinda stuff should happen in a CoH2 either, for many of the same reasons I already mentioned.

Overall I do actually agree, I really don't want add-ons in CoH2.  As discussed a raid teller like DBM can encourage difficulty creep, and things like Decurse or Healbot are only a step outside the line of outright botting (and some early version of mods like those were well over the line). Now there are some quality of life and input/output functions I'd love to have integrated directly in a future game which would often be considered add-on fodder. Obviously things like the CoH patches for fancier looking buttons and especially the annotated badge maps would be tragic to loose as options. Being able to import/export character build & quest completion & badge data to an external character builder like Mids would be awesome. And I would like a built-in way to track damage / healing totals and averages even if its only my personal stats because I find it useful for "being all I can be".

[Scendera]

Erm...I use Healbot extensively when I play WoW. I think you're putting it a bit strongly, at least as of the past 4 years (which is roughly how long I've used it).

It gives visual indicators and a highly customizable interactable UI element. For me, that means making a large, contrast-y, fairly brightly colored frame that's easier for me to see and click given I sit several feet back at essentially tv distance. It doesn't do anything without being explicitly set up and then me making the choices and hitting the buttons.

It's an extremely valuable tool, between my odd setup and my somewhat poor eyesight...but every single thing it does is selected solely by me and driven solely by me.

[Mistress Urd]

One thing I liked about CoH Good player with bad build >>> Bad player with good build.

[Serpine]

One thing I liked about CoH Good player with bad build >>> Bad player with good build.

Bad player with bad build trumps all though.

[GamingGlen]

I know, not the person your replying to but.....

Dumbed down usually means the game has less depth.  It's simplified, but overly so.  Sometimes you have a game that is streamlined, that can be fine if the core gameplay is intact and the depth isn't cut in any way.  But dumbed down is where you make it so that the lowest denominator can play the game as successfully as higher skilled players, as depth is destroyed.  See, depth is to me, your always learning new things.  A new player shouldn't master a game within ten or twenty minutes.  A dumbed down game typically can be said to be mastered in that short of a time frame, due to sore lack of difficulty or the fact that only one strategy exists at the core of the game.  MMORPGS for example, the holy trinity being the only team tactic, that is an example of only one strategy existing.  Once it's learned how to position in anything, you've mastered it.  Games with very solid depth take a very long time or are even impossible to truly master.

A good example of a game that was dumbed down to much was Deus Ex: Invisible war in comparison to it's predecessor.  You had less augmentations, to small map design, very poor AI, story writing was deliberately made so you could change your mind on who your siding with at all times without any consequences.  It was a pretty big disaster.

Another example is CO.  Again, compared to city of heroes, in this case, the game was again made easy enough so even the worst players could succeed(which should never be a case, as if you set the skill bar so ultra low even casual players get bored and feel the game is lackluster).  Buffs and debuffs are almost non-existent.  Crowd control in CO is also utterly useless, to.  So the only strategy is run around, pound things.  In teams, same thing except fire and ice, in which only the holy trinity works which is again, very boring.  Once you figure that out, you mastered it and that takes little time to do.

If CoX was dumbed down, it'd be such healers were required for everything because all those buffs debuffs and crowd control would be nerfed to the point of uselessness as to "avoid unnecessary complication" or "make the game simpler for casual players to master".  City of heroes depth comes from the fact that all the various buffs, debuffs and crowd control worked differently in some way, so every powerset had it's nuances.  So you couldn't master the game super quickly like any typically dumbed down game can be.  In fact, the opposite was true, CoX was not a game you could truely master ultimately as there were to many powerset combinations you could choose from.

COX was dumbed down some when they made the Fitness pool inherent.

[silvers1]

Mods that allow you to track the numbers of OTHER players (which IIRC, some in TSW did), just gave uptight jerkholes one more excuse to kick someone or ridicule a build.  We didn't have much of that in CoH, thank deity, but what of we did have was PLENTY.  The last thing they needed was a number they could throw around to help define who in a League was "underperforming."

I totally agree with this.  The one thing I loved about CoH was that your contribution to a team consisted of more than just raw dps - you had buffs/debuffs,
control, aggro management, knockdowns, etc.   If you give players a tool that will allow discrimination based on dps, believe me they will take full advantage.  I saw plenty of that in WoW.
The moment they introduce a dps meter in CoH, is the moment I'd be heading out the door.

To be honest, I felt the CoH devs made a mistake when they listed out the stat bonuses for players.   I never saw it happen, but I saw potential for discrimination based on what IO sets you had - or didn't. I saw plenty of build discrimination in GW - use one of the cookie cutter builds or else.

[Saedor]

The new tutorial in CO is almost identical to the original tutorial in CO... The only difference being they took away the ceremony where the mayor presents you the key to millenium city and you no longer get to choose whether to goto canada or the desert... Which now the desert and canada lowbie areas are such a freaking joke. Back then you arrived with fewer powers and now you arrive with more than you really should have and the content is pointless for anything but storyline and easy leveling.

I was referring to the new CoX tutorial, the Shivan attack on Galaxy City, not CO's tutorial.

[hejtmane]

I often think it was sort of a chicken and egg thing: The complexity of encounters increased to counteract the advantage of DBM and the added complexity made it increasingly required that you had DBM. Since CoH didn't have such a product raids never needed to turn into 40 man synchronized dance numbers to keep them interesting.

One thing I can say in the favor of things like DBM is they did remove some of the need for having a strong computer, excellent connection, and split-second timing. While it evolved into a requirement, it did allow a number of people who otherwise would not ever be able to contribute to a raid to function and thus enjoy that aspect of the game. Though once again, if the battles were more fault tolerant that wouldn't have been an issue.
Recount seriously? I really don't see how something that did damage and healing total comparisons (something you could just as well determine in CoH if you dumped the combat log and ran it through some filters) could be nearly as destructive to play as things like DBM, Decurse, or Healbot. Yeah I guess some people used it as a tool to judge / exclude people, but if you are underperforming enough in a team / raid to provoke others to do that, you probably want to figure out what you are doing wrong or find a crowd less focused on optimization.

Anyone that thinks dumping combat logs is bad never read the scrapper forms and our pylon test for dps and the theory crafting on attack chains.

The issue with dance by numbers because yes I done all those before DAOC on raids, more recently spent a year in Rift between COH stints and in those games you have to find a raid team to get good gear so if you can not dedicate yourself too 2-4 hours sometimes multiple times a week to the raid your life gets miserable in some of those games.

Then if you step to the left and not the right you die and the whole raid wipes; I done lots of raids after you figure out the encounter and your dps equals x and your heal equals x and you have this build then it is easy. most the time is can you dps enough fast enough.

[hejtmane]

COX was dumbed down some when they made the Fitness pool inherent.

That is incorrect sir not when they flat out said that over 90% of the builds had it when they gave it to everyone the issue with the endurance pool it was mandatory even back in the over powered days. Even an SO build really needed the fitness pool to perform at a good level some notable exceptions (regen and WP). It was a bad game design issue that went back to I1 the calls to just give everyone it or increase base endurance regen went all the way back to I2.

They fixed a game design flaw that should had been fixed when Miller was in charge

[Relitner]

COX was dumbed down some when they made the Fitness pool inherent.

I don't know if I agree with this. The Fitness pool became almost necessary after the 20s, rather than a value-added choice. If it weren't so crucial just to remain standing during a fight (or avoid having to to rest between every fight), then I'd probably see it differently.