Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7211656 times)

Brou

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #660 on: April 23, 2014, 09:59:35 PM »
Wishing the best.
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #661 on: April 23, 2014, 10:07:01 PM »
So my input on the graphics. I used to play CoH on a 13 year old desktop on moderately high settings. That being said it was gorgeous as is. I think CoH was prettier than ANY new MMO SWTOR, LOTRO and so on. It lacked cartoonyness. I DROOOL at the possibility to play on my two BF 4 and crisis max setting capable rigs(laptop and desktops). I would love to be able to have a meaningful debate about the changes to the game(including content) in the future because it means we are in control of the ship again.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #662 on: April 23, 2014, 10:13:33 PM »
So my input on the graphics. I used to play CoH on a 13 year old desktop on moderately high settings. That being said it was gorgeous as is. I think CoH was prettier than ANY new MMO SWTOR, LOTRO and so on. It lacked cartoonyness. I DROOOL at the possibility to play on my two BF 4 and crisis max setting capable rigs(laptop and desktops). I would love to be able to have a meaningful debate about the changes to the game(including content) in the future because it means we are in control of the ship again.

CoH in ultra mode was something I never got the chance to play on my old 'rig.'

I got my new 'rig' just over a month after the game shutdown. :/

Icon in ultra mode looks pretty nice.

CoH had it's own feel.  They'll probably keep classic Coh around.  Like victorian lace, it's character will stand the test of time.  It will pay it's way.  It's how it plays that counts.  Plus more people's rigs should be able to play in ultra mode as well these days.  The graphics in ultra mode still hold their own in many ways.

They can introduce CoH 2 with the core assets moving to the new engine which will be 99% the same 'feel' as the original...but those assets will look 'better' and more vibrant on the new engine.  Not only this.  But they'll be able to develop new assets that really show what the Unreal 4 (I'm guessing that will be the one...) engine can really do.  CoH was 'realistic' for its time and CoH 2 will be realistic for its time.

This allows them to take the game forward.  Keep the classic mode for classic players.  But push the game forward in new ways to bring new players to the community and stop 'older' players getting bored.

Cake and eat it approach.  No reason we can't have both.

No reason at all.

Azrael.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #663 on: April 23, 2014, 10:19:30 PM »
I would be much more interested in the story of a potential CoH 2. I could see it starting right where CoH left off, with better tech to handle changing storylines and NPCs who die / change / whatever. I wouldn't want something that took place in the past or far future.
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #664 on: April 23, 2014, 11:21:05 PM »
Quote
This is a progressive plan.  A sensible one.  You get the game up and running.  You get it making money.  You bring back the community.  The loyal 75-100K base customers who had it closed down on them.  The '50k'+ who had got bored after the launch of CoV with the lack of true end game, lack of new interior maps you can bring back...and give them a reason or three to hang around this time.  i.e.. Proper End game.  Interior maps given a new lease of life.  Raise the Level cap to 60 to get people back and playing with new and proper end game content.  Increase the 'stickiness' of the classic game.

But to poach the MMO players from eve online to WoW to other pretenders?  CoH 2.  Incorporating new engine.  Classic gameplay.  Ultra Mode 2 graphical upgrade.  New CoH 2 based play types, archetypes, maps, zones, power sets to push the game forward.  You get the 'old' but you progress to the 'new' on the same engine.  You can choose classic gameplay in the classic zones given 'buffed up' graphics on the new engine or you can 'try' the new direction influenced but not limited by 'classic' mode.  Progressive development into new directions due to the flexibility the new engine gives you.
It seems nice on paper. Ultimately, however, it's neither practical nor cost-effective.

On the negative:
1. At every step your project is held back by having to maintain backwards compatibility - be it with the original assets or with pre-existing logic.
2. The original game was - and we have multiple separate sources agreeing on that - not designed with extensibility in mind. Your developers would be reworking the old engine to accept those changes as much as adding them to the new one. It's twice the work to get the same feature in both old and new engines.
3. This means highly non-trivial additional development time and costs.
4. And yes, reworking the old engine to some king of plugin-based architecture is also going to take considerable extra time.

On the positive:
1. You maintain continuity for characters created in the game's original version and the upgraded one
2. You retain the old content while working on new

The problem is, both of those positives could be achieved in simpler and less expensive ways - and by continuing with the original game's core (now over a decade old) you also continue to struggle with some of its' development baggage. Starting over from (nearly) scratch is not so bad a thing as you seem to believe.

From both business and development perspective it makes more sense to do this:
1. Run the original game (with or without i23 finished) in maintenance mode - that is, no new features or content.
2. Develop the successor from the ground up, with the only compromise to the original being implementing backwards compatibility with old assets and content *if possible*
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #665 on: April 23, 2014, 11:42:37 PM »
Exactly.

Firstly, I'd like to thank Ironwolf for keeping the Titan Network and CoH fans informed.  It's quite exciting!  'We' have a contact, a price and a meeting.  Amazing news.  Hopefully, things can progress from here.

And if things don't.  I get the feeling we'll know more about 'why not' this time around. ;)

Which means?  The numerous offers of financial help and technical help can be pursued.  And, egos asides..., maybe 'all' can pool their efforts for one giant push to 'persuade' NC Soft that the CoH community can, financially and technically, STEP UP to bring the game 'home.'

To the efforts currently under way, I say...'God speed.'

As for the 'worries.'

I think with any possibly 'buy out' will have to have a basic plan.  It's this...

1. Get the Classic CoH game back up and running. 

(Make it pay.  At least break even.  I once saw 30 thousand subs quoted as the amount for an MMO game to 'break even.'  I think the CoH community will 'walk' that number!)

- Re-launch the game.  Get the community buzzing.
- Hot on it's 'heals?' (heh...)  Finish and put out issue 24 to bring more subscribers on board.
- Develop and finish a probably sketchily finished issue 25.  Introduce the galactic threat...invasion style.
- Develop the galactic threat and the 'Moon Setting' that Matt Miller was talking about.  FINALLY, some more interior mission maps.  Raise the level cap to 60.  Add solo incarnate capability (for those like me who hated Legion hoards of chaos missions...)  And complete the incarnate power tree.  (And, I'd argue, give it a more traditional interface like the one for 1st, 2ndary and tertiary and epic power sets.  The devs' lost the plot on the Incarnate interface.  Deary me...)

What does this do?  This gets the community back on track.  It gets the developers focused.  It brings back subbers who had left the game.  Get the basic subs numbers back up to 100K, easily with this amount of work.  Maybe 125-150k depending on the quality of the issues 24-25 and finally, with the 'Moon base' a proper end game.

2.  CoH 2.

Show the other MMOs WE MEAN BUSiNESS.  Because, YES SIR!  Not only are we keeping the 'Classic game play and game' for those who want to play it... (I'm guessing 75k-100k still will!  Including ME!  That will make the classic game pay over 3 times over...)

We are going to shoot a sidewinder over the parapets of every MMO out there..! 

- Develop Coh 2

- Phase 1.

- Keep Classic CoH gameplay and design.
- Ultra Mode 2.0!  Update all graphics.  All maps, characters, interfaces, game play are THE SAME!  99.9% port efficient.  (See Irish Girl's demo of Oro for how good CoH '2' could look!)
- To achieve this?  Go to the Unreal 4 engine.
- Keep everything.  But ported to the new engine.

Phase 2.

- Raise the level cap to L70.
- Introduce new Power Sets graphical 'particle' effects that show what Unreal 4 engine can really do.
- Introduce new designs of Archetype sets that REALLY show the versality of the new engine.
- Introduce new game play types that take advantage of a more flexible engine.
- Introduce new 'ultra' realistic interior maps that REALLY show what Unreal 4 engine can do.
- Introduce new zones that show what the new engine can REALLY do.

So.

We get:

1. Classic.

We keep 'her' just the way we remember the 'old' girl.

2. CoH 2.

Phase 1.

Ultra Mode 2.  CoH ports to a new engine and puts the 'old' assets in a more polished light.

3. CoH 2.

Phase 2.

Introduces the 'new' augmented game gradually.  New interior maps.  New zones.  New Archetypes.  New Power Sets.  New graphical fidelity.  New play types.  (Inspired by 'classic' mode but not 'constrained' by it.

It keeps those who just want to play classic happy.  (Me.)

Keeps those who want it updated to a new engine happy.  (Me.)

Keeps those who want a game to extend into new territories happy.  (Me.)

You get Vanilla.  You get Strawberry.  And yes.  You get chocolate.


This is a progressive plan.  A sensible one.  You get the game up and running.  You get it making money.  You bring back the community.  The loyal 75-100K base customers who had it closed down on them.  The '50k'+ who had got bored after the launch of CoV with the lack of true end game, lack of new interior maps you can bring back...and give them a reason or three to hang around this time.  i.e.. Proper End game.  Interior maps given a new lease of life.  Raise the Level cap to 60 to get people back and playing with new and proper end game content.  Increase the 'stickiness' of the classic game.

But to poach the MMO players from eve online to WoW to other pretenders?  CoH 2.  Incorporating new engine.  Classic gameplay.  Ultra Mode 2 graphical upgrade.  New CoH 2 based play types, archetypes, maps, zones, power sets to push the game forward.  You get the 'old' but you progress to the 'new' on the same engine.  You can choose classic gameplay in the classic zones given 'buffed up' graphics on the new engine or you can 'try' the new direction with super enhanced Ultra Mode 3 (which really cuts loose on the new engine with the Coh 2 in these new maps, new zones and new archetypes looking more like the tech demos of Unreal4 engine with dazzling particle effects, animation and realistic character geometry/textures!) influenced but not limited by 'classic' mode.  Progressive development into new directions due to the flexibility the new engine gives you.

It goes without saying that the new group would do well to reach out to the community of CoH, ex-developers etc to get the game back up and running and help get issue 24 and 25 out the door within a year of re-launch.

And yes.  The new group, if they succeed, can have my development plan free of charge, Ironwolf. ;)

Azrael.

Please do NOT raise the level cap, part of CoHs charm was it's not ludicrously high level cap like 200-thousand-billion whatever, it gave you a number that seemed realistic and a number to strive for. 60 may not seem like much more, but it's just too much.
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #666 on: April 24, 2014, 12:31:27 AM »
I'd love to see a level increase only if big develop comes into the game Big Time! I mean If the game comes back what are we going to do about the unfinished incarnate stuff? That stuff is ruined in that the developers are no longer with us. So must we do away with the old and develop the new? As others have said all I see is maintenance mode where everybody plays with whats already there. Maybe new maps and missions can be created. But who's actually going to develop new powers? power tray icons with that certain style attached to Paragon studios? etc etc. We've got lots of thinking to do!

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #667 on: April 24, 2014, 12:32:11 AM »
I definitely dont want to raise the level cap.  It usually means reworking builds and a lot of other annoyances that you find in other games like
WoW.

The incarnate system was ok, though a bit grindy.  I like being able to incrementally add abilities to your character through trials or compaigns.
But continually raising the cap... ugh.

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Eskreema

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #668 on: April 24, 2014, 12:42:34 AM »
I don't like the new Grid in Tron Legacy; I like The old Tron, it was more quirky and endearing cause that's how I remember it, 20 years later.  Same with Star Trek and ST:NG.  If they make a new Matrix it will probably be red, and red is just stupid for the Matrix.  On the other hand, they did have really cool eye candy in their own rights and in their own times and they progressed the cannon in the spirit in which it was made.   As long as the game is approached by those who saw it the way we did and know the lore, I am happy that it may have a future at all.  Heck, use Arcana's story line as canon and as Rularuu pinched off realities x3, the new one was infused by him in high def. :D

And we don't need more levels just more powah!! The power progression to mad-powerful being was just fine.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 12:52:16 AM by Eskreema »
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Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #669 on: April 24, 2014, 12:53:36 AM »
I think that the gameplay was already changing. With sets like Dual Blades and Titan Weapons using stringed attacks, Dual Pistols using ammo, and what I understood as a desire to move more in that direction, it seems to me that the overall feel of powersets was becoming quite different from the original style of just nine themed powers.
In many ways it all started with them gosh-darned newfangled Kheldians.  :-\
Still, i quite enjoyed the newer mechanics as well as the older sets. Honestly, probably because of how gradually these changes accumulated, i found Dual Pistols and Titan Weapons and the rest no harder to use than classics like Energy Blast and Dark Miasma. Although i never really cared for Dual Blades' system for some reason.

I definitely dont want to raise the level cap.  It usually means reworking builds and a lot of other annoyances that you find in other games like
WoW.

The incarnate system was ok, though a bit grindy.  I like being able to incrementally add abilities to your character through trials or compaigns.
But continually raising the cap... ugh.
i will second this. Due to the way the powers and enhancement system was structured simply adding another ten levels of powers and slots was problematic in a variety of ways. Despite how grindy the Incarnate system was at times i thought it was a reasonable way of allowing characters to gain additional power past level 50.

As far as graphics go, I think the conversion to Ultra was the best way to go about things at the time. Allow players to keep the old graphics, either for nostalgia or hardware compliance, and then give the option for varying degrees of Ultra graphics. I think Ultra looked great, and I personally don't have a problem with updated graphics. I think a lot of the visual appeal is in the design, rather than the actual pixels on screen.
Agreed. While i still think that more of the really old and lower quality textures should've been tweaked to look better CoH still looks pretty good compared to many games that launched more than eight years later.

On a related note, one of my issues with CO was art and design related in that even with the cel-shading turned off (which i did within five minutes of launching the game) the game went from looking like an old Saturday morning cartoon to looking like plastic action figures and playsets based on an old Saturday morning cartoon. That wasn't really much of an improvement.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #670 on: April 24, 2014, 12:53:54 AM »
 Step one.. get the game from NC Soft.. Lets focus on that...

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #671 on: April 24, 2014, 01:56:08 AM »
Step one.. get the game from NC Soft.. Lets focus on that...

I was hoping I wasn't the only one thinking this. Starting to seem like there are too many people getting way too far ahead of themselves. It's great to see so many active and excited. BUT as previously stated, it's too early to speculate much less plan what the game could/should become. If I recall correctly, a point was made that all the speculation and planning could actually hurt the business deal Ironwolf has been letting us know bits and pieces of.

All the best to Ironwolf as well as the team in motion, but as much as I hate to ruin the fun of the "what if" and "this is how they should do it" posts, I think we would all be better served to turn on the Issue 1 version of Unyielding and stay planted at the "finger's crossed" stage.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #672 on: April 24, 2014, 02:46:15 AM »
I'm pretty sure we're all well aware we're still on step one. The rest is just entertaining ourselves while we wait.
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #673 on: April 24, 2014, 04:04:24 AM »


Still a WIP, but i wanted to give y'all some progress.
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #674 on: April 24, 2014, 06:15:49 AM »
I was hoping I wasn't the only one thinking this. Starting to seem like there are too many people getting way too far ahead of themselves. It's great to see so many active and excited. BUT as previously stated, it's too early to speculate much less plan what the game could/should become. If I recall correctly, a point was made that all the speculation and planning could actually hurt the business deal Ironwolf has been letting us know bits and pieces of.

All the best to Ironwolf as well as the team in motion, but as much as I hate to ruin the fun of the "what if" and "this is how they should do it" posts, I think we would all be better served to turn on the Issue 1 version of Unyielding and stay planted at the "finger's crossed" stage.

Fingers on both hands crossed, toes crossed, legs crossed... Oh and arms crossed!  :D

Aggelakis

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #675 on: April 24, 2014, 06:41:51 AM »


Still a WIP, but i wanted to give y'all some progress.
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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #676 on: April 24, 2014, 09:54:48 AM »
Maybe it's because I'm a bit of an MMO whore, maybe it's because if we're honest my sight just ain't what it used to be...I never had any problems with how CoH looked. Particularly once I found some of the graphics settings and really cranked things on my decently powerful machine, I thought in a lot of cases it was the crispest, nicest looking MMO around.

Looking at my favorite mogs in WoW compared to screenshots from CoH, the best liked stuff is consistently the sets that had a similar appearance to how CoH looked...that almost enameled look to the armor. Even my little Warden in EQ2 bears a striking resemblance to my Warshade, once I chose a mog for her.

Forget prettying it up, just let us all go *home* and call it good :-)

More seriously tho...keep up the good work. We're all very grateful you're making progress where it seemed like no one could.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #677 on: April 24, 2014, 01:32:28 PM »
Step one.. get the game from NC Soft.. Lets focus on that...

Despite the one being in panic yesterday (and I'm greatly sorry for that. I am usually pretty much cool about things usually), I agree with that statement. Especially since I find it scary how we all want something different added or removed to it. But at the same time, It had to be expected since there is a large variety of gamers and it makes the community be divided (not in war but still divided) on what people want.

The game was finely built to get pretty much all kind of players happy in different ways. They were like, in a mental image, in the middle of all the different kinds of players. Now the blanket has been left untouched in the middle, everyone wants to pull the blanket on their side to get what they think would be good for the game. The only issue is there are so many kinds of different players in this game, reaching a large amount of community, that it is unavoidable that while some people think that "A" is a good idea, others will say that "B" is more adapted to them and others will say that "A" and "B" are not good since "C" needs to happen.

What I'm trying to say is CoH was a nice balance for everyone but a very fragile balance as well. While I know that it is mostly for the entertainment of it that some ideas are thrown around, let's not forget that some ideas might frustrate others. It is not because we are all whiny brats but mostly because there was tons of ways to enjoy CoH and your idea might fit well for your way to play CoH but would cut literally the fun for people who were enjoying it in a different way.

I guess it's why I was claiming the game shouldn't be changed that much. But at the same time, while I would be just happy to have the game like it used to be and never move from there, while I would be to just have a copy to play on my own personal server that could totally be set for that, while I would live very happily with a I24 version of CoH with some of my friends, I know too that if a company purchases it and sells it to users, it will have to evolve to continue to sell.

However, I think that balance will always have to be considerated and maintained or we might lose some people in the long run. And while there are some great ideas thrown around, I understand that some great ideas thrown by ones are a game killer for the others and vice-versa.

All that to say, to come back on me backing up the statement of focusing on first phase, we should probably just do that to avoid those who could buy it see a community that is divided by their own personal opinions because they want the balance to be broken by their own vision of the game.

Yes, I think that, if the game evolves, not only the core must be maintained but that fragile balance as well. CoH was a game for all kind of players and CoH needs to stay a game for all kind of players. That was what proved how huge CoH community was and how awesome people were in it and how they got united to fight for their game.  We can't let anything divide the community, especially not ourselves, because we all have a different vision of CoH that would require to implement things that might hurt the other visions.

By the way, I'm not saying people are at war or anything. I just see how some of those debates about implementing or removing stuff could easily start fights so I just try to calm down flames before they start to burn.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #678 on: April 24, 2014, 01:51:07 PM »
CoH in ultra mode was something I never got the chance to play on my old 'rig.'

I got my new 'rig' just over a month after the game shutdown. :/

Icon in ultra mode looks pretty nice.

CoH had it's own feel.  They'll probably keep classic Coh around.  Like victorian lace, it's character will stand the test of time.  It will pay it's way.  It's how it plays that counts.  Plus more people's rigs should be able to play in ultra mode as well these days.  The graphics in ultra mode still hold their own in many ways.

They can introduce CoH 2 with the core assets moving to the new engine which will be 99% the same 'feel' as the original...but those assets will look 'better' and more vibrant on the new engine.  Not only this.  But they'll be able to develop new assets that really show what the Unreal 4 (I'm guessing that will be the one...) engine can really do.  CoH was 'realistic' for its time and CoH 2 will be realistic for its time.

This allows them to take the game forward.  Keep the classic mode for classic players.  But push the game forward in new ways to bring new players to the community and stop 'older' players getting bored.

Cake and eat it approach.  No reason we can't have both.

No reason at all.

Azrael.
I agree 100% and you make a good point about a lot of people being able to do ultra now. If I could do what I could on my piece of crap a 'crappy' rig today could do a lot.

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #679 on: April 24, 2014, 02:01:35 PM »
Maybe it's because I'm a bit of an MMO whore, maybe it's because if we're honest my sight just ain't what it used to be...I never had any problems with how CoH looked. Particularly once I found some of the graphics settings and really cranked things on my decently powerful machine, I thought in a lot of cases it was the crispest, nicest looking MMO around.

Looking at my favorite mogs in WoW compared to screenshots from CoH, the best liked stuff is consistently the sets that had a similar appearance to how CoH looked...that almost enameled look to the armor. Even my little Warden in EQ2 bears a striking resemblance to my Warshade, once I chose a mog for her.

Forget prettying it up, just let us all go *home* and call it good :-)

More seriously tho...keep up the good work. We're all very grateful you're making progress where it seemed like no one could.

I look at the various possibilities of how the game could and might look, but I keep thinking back on the game's actual look...how it WAS when we were there.  SURE, it could look a LOT better...crisper...more impressive....but, I think, for me, the thing I keep coming back to is all that new and enhanced graphics and amazing programming IS, indeed, FANTASTIC, but, it's not home.

I want to go home. 

I want to see it unchanged...just like it was when I was a kid...errr...a new hero in a freshly made Sergei spandex jumpsuit...dreams of changing the (virtual) world in my head...

I just want to go home.

Even if it was imperfect and needed updating...it was home...and THAT'S where I want to be.
Waiting for the day Paragon returns.