New efforts!

[damienray]

I want to go home. 

I want to see it unchanged...just like it was when I was a kid...errr...a new hero in a freshly made Sergei spandex jumpsuit...dreams of changing the (virtual) world in my head...

I just want to go home.

Even if it was imperfect and needed updating...it was home...and THAT'S where I want to be.

This x10. Couldn't have said it better. *clicks heels* are we there yet?

[MWRuger]

I think for the future of the game, whatever it may be, this has to happen. No one wants to visit their favorite restaurant and discover that new one, even if it is better, is built on the ruins of their memories.

Right now we haven't playing in nearly a year and a half. All we have are memories and in memory everything is perfect. All flaws have been removed and we want that back. (Yes, I know there have been plenty of posts pointing out things that could be changed and Yes, Icon. Not the same. Wish it was.)

I think before the most passionate COH residents will welcome and accept major changes to the game we love, we need to be in game and not trying to decide what we want through the nostalgia tinted lenses.

Get us in game, then lets talk about the future.

[Cailyn Alaynn]

I don't think anyone's saying "Instead of bringing back old CoH, let's just jump straight to a re-done CoH instead", which seems to be what some people see. Or I'm just crazy. Maybe both.


As a community, we likely aren't going to have to much (if any) say in what happens with the game when/if the I.P. is picked up. What happens then also depends on a huge number of things that can't be forseen.

Can NCSoft transfer their license of the engine? (Based on my understanding, no matter how many changes NCSoft has made, Cryptic still owns the engine.)
If not, would Cryptic be willing to re-license the engine?
If so, will NCSoft license/sell their changes to the engine?
and how much would that cost?

Does Company Name Here WANT to run the original game at all?
It's entirely possible that they won't see a profit in it, or perhaps think that just building a CoH2 would be a better use of their time.

If I were on the team that picks up the game would I want to bank my future on that engine? Gods no.
Personally, (Assuming we had both the IP and engine, and the server software itself) I'd re-launch the game in a semi-maintained state. (Try and at least bugfix some things, keep some GMs paying attention to petitions)
Then I'd start re-building the game in a newer engine, with the goal to maintain the same gameplay and feel. Newer graphics would be a bonus, but the real reason is that the CoH codebase is SH*T.
NorCal have spent the last 10 years all but saying it themselves. It's badly patched together, 2/3ds of it are undocumented.
If the game wants to see another 10 years, it needs a new back-end.

[MWRuger]

I don't disagree at all Irish Girl. I posted before that all of this is premature and that we should just sit tight.

You're right that we will have little say, but whoever is negotiated will at some point want to talk to the game's fanbase, they have to.

While the idea of playing an Unreal 4 engine based COH sounds freaking awesome. I'm not ready for that yet.

I like your plan, get it back, get it running, then work towards COH 2 or even a total conversion. I think that is a much easier way to even get people who want no change at all to get on board.

All I'm saying is that I'm ready. I had two Accounts, my sister had one, my brother in law had one, my best friends had 4.

Out of 8 accounts 4 of those would definitely be paid (or lifetime if they offer it). I can't imagine that I am unique in that.

[Cailyn Alaynn]

"I can't imagine that I am unique in that."
Not even a little. Just in this house alone there would be 5 paid accounts.

[Brigadine]

take me down to the paragon city where the grass is green and the girls are pretty oh wont you please take me homeeeee yeah yeahaaaa

[Ironwolf]

I don't think anyone's saying "Instead of bringing back old CoH, let's just jump straight to a re-done CoH instead", which seems to be what some people see. Or I'm just crazy. Maybe both.


As a community, we likely aren't going to have to much (if any) say in what happens with the game when/if the I.P. is picked up. What happens then also depends on a huge number of things that can't be forseen.

Can NCSoft transfer their license of the engine? (Based on my understanding, no matter how many changes NCSoft has made, Cryptic still owns the engine.)
If not, would Cryptic be willing to re-license the engine?
If so, will NCSoft license/sell their changes to the engine?
and how much would that cost?

Does Company Name Here WANT to run the original game at all?
It's entirely possible that they won't see a profit in it, or perhaps think that just building a CoH2 would be a better use of their time.

If I were on the team that picks up the game would I want to bank my future on that engine? Gods no.
Personally, (Assuming we had both the IP and engine, and the server software itself) I'd re-launch the game in a semi-maintained state. (Try and at least bugfix some things, keep some GMs paying attention to petitions)
Then I'd start re-building the game in a newer engine, with the goal to maintain the same gameplay and feel. Newer graphics would be a bonus, but the real reason is that the CoH codebase is SH*T.
NorCal have spent the last 10 years all but saying it themselves. It's badly patched together, 2/3ds of it are undocumented.
If the game wants to see another 10 years, it needs a new back-end.

Rumor control - some of the things found out by contacting people or by statements made by those involved directly:


Can NCSoft transfer their license of the engine? (Based on my understanding, no matter how many changes NCSoft has made, Cryptic still owns the engine.)
If not, would Cryptic be willing to re-license the engine?
If so, will NCSoft license/sell their changes to the engine?
and how much would that cost?

NCSoft owns the full rights to the City of Heroes and its engine. There is no need to relicense anything

Does Company Name Here WANT to run the original game at all?
The team working on this purchase DOES want the full game but could settle for less - at this stage the first meeting hasn't happened yet, so there is no way to tell what they will sell for what price - honestly the IP without the game would make no sense for them to sell as then they are stuck with a game that would require complete reworking to sell or publish.

It's entirely possible that they won't see a profit in it, or perhaps think that just building a CoH2 would be a better use of their time.
They see the profit in it but still also are looking forward not just back.

[Cailyn Alaynn]

NCSoft owns the full rights to the City of Heroes and its engine. There is no need to relicense anything

Well that makes things way simpler. lol.

[BenshowSly]

Well that makes things way simpler. lol.

Is it? Longer this thread is going, the more confused I'm becoming about everything.

I'm not a huge gamer so I assume some concepts are not easy to understand but I feel not the same thing is said everyday and I don't know what we are working on and where we are going with it lol.

[Zombie Hustler]

I'm also hoping the writers in the community are working on (or planning on) projects for more CoH Fiction to stock our book shelves.  What we have at the moment (the 2 novels, anthology of short stories, and comic books) could be expanded to much, MUCH more.

Not fiction, per se, but I had several AE mission story ideas/WIP for several Praetorian story arcs (I loved Praetoria the best). I'd absolutely love the opportunity to get to finish them, provided AE is part of a new game in some manner.

[Zombie Hustler]

The guys at Goblinworks (for the Pathfinder MMO) have some interesting ideas on where/how they are planning on building their game and making it pay. Its pretty theoretical at this point (the game isn't out yet), but I wonder that there might not be something worth considering in their plan if and when CoH gets a revival.

[ShadowMokadara]

Is it? Longer this thread is going, the more confused I'm becoming about everything.

I'm not a huge gamer so I assume some concepts are not easy to understand but I feel not the same thing is said everyday and I don't know what we are working on and where we are going with it lol.

I'm right here with you...

Are we getting CoH back or building a new game? The latter seems like something we should go for if only there truly is no way to get the game back.

[Tubbius]

Should we get the game back, there will be a PENGUIN Part 5: Waddle Home, for all you fans of my PENGUIN arcs.



Keep holding torches, folks.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Is it? Longer this thread is going, the more confused I'm becoming about everything.

I'm not a huge gamer so I assume some concepts are not easy to understand but I feel not the same thing is said everyday and I don't know what we are working on and where we are going with it lol.

Tl;Dr:  NCSoft has all rights to the City of Heroes intellectual property, all rights to the server code, all rights to the game engine and all rights to the game client. The sale can proceed without any licensing issues or having to involve Cryptic.
Before now, there was some concern based on a rumour that Cryptic supposedly retained rights to the engine and NCSoft was licensing it from them.

Are we getting CoH back or building as new game? The latter seems like something we should go for if only there truly is no way to get the game back.

What Ironwolf is saying is this:
The as-of-yet unnamed buyer wants to get the whole thing - as in, the game and the IP rights - and essentially relaunch CoH.
Whether that comes to pass depends on how much NCSoft will want for the entire package as opposed to just the IP rights.
If NCSoft sells them the IP rights, they will be able to start work on a CoH2 regardless of whether or not the original game was part of the deal.

[ShadowMokadara]

If NCSoft sells them the IP rights, they will be able to start work on a CoH2 regardless of whether or not the original game was part of the deal.

Alright. But why CoH 2?

Edit: Never mind. I suppose it's for the simplicity of being able to update it in an engine that's easier to work with.

[Ironwolf]

To help to wade through the confusion:

IP = Intellectual Property - it means the name, Trademarks, Artwork, Written works published, Codebase (program) and other things that give you the right to call your game City of Heroes.

Engine = in some cases the engine is separate from the codebase. There are many game engines UnReal, Unity and so on - in most cases the codebase could be separated from the engine. In other words if you bought a game using the UnReal 4 engine you would have to lease/purchase a license from UnReal as a separate deal, it likely wouldn't carry over - but could depending on your deal.

The team working on this wants the whole game of City of Heroes with all the bells and whistles. We don't know yet what if any options NCSoft will offer. It might be a really simple give us $10 million and it is yours. It might be give us $8 million and 2 years profit sharing and its yours (that is the deal Cryptic made).

At this point we have made this much progress:

We have a buyer, we have a tentative price, we have a contact and they are willing to talk.

Personally - it seems like a lot since this effort didn't start until march 6th! The buyers didn't get involved until about 3 1/2 weeks ago. So things are moving along and once we get to NCSoft it may go faster than we could expect or it could drag out a few months.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Edit: Never mind. I suppose it's for the simplicity of being able to update it in an engine that's easier to work with.

More for the complexity of updating it. We had multiple sources confirm it's a nightmare to develop even for people with multiple years' worth of familiarity with the beast.

[BadWolf]

At this point we have made this much progress:

We have a buyer, we have a tentative price, we have a contact and they are willing to talk.

I'm just going to bask in this part for a few days, thanks...

[Crimsanotic]

A raise in the level cap would be silly. If the rate at which you get powers continues, everyone would have four additional powers. Maybe one would be nice, but after that? I'd probably pick up powers that aren't really helping me at all. I can't imagine that I, or anyone else, could make a character that really needed those extra powers. Even then, there's all the additional slots you'd be getting. I think the number of slots as it was, was perfect. Yeah, sometimes I wish I had an extra slot or two, but I always made due. With that many additional levels, I'd have excess slots. And that just doesn't sound cool. This game doesn't need to be any easier than it already was.

Also, raising the level cap means creating brand new content for 50-60. Sure, I guess you could just make all the existing level 50 content scale up to 60, but that just doesn't...feel right, or something. Also, IOs scale with levels, and level 60 IOs would be insane. Base level 60 IOs granting more of a percentage than pre-I3 HOs, purple sets that only enhance one boost (like damage) giving 75%! That doesn't even include Enhancement Boosters. Sure, there's ED, but with this much of a percentage increase, characters will be becoming vastly more powerful. Add on top of this having extra powers and slots. No thanks.

Speaking of IOs, if I were to, say, get my character(s) back as a level 50, fully decked out in IOs and with +5 Enhancement Boosters, the disappoint of knowing all those level 50 enhancements are useless because there are newer, better level 60 ones would just be too much to bear.

[CreVo]

A raise in the level cap would be silly. If the rate at which you get powers continues, everyone would have four additional powers. Maybe one would be nice, but after that? I'd probably pick up powers that aren't really helping me at all. I can't imagine that I, or anyone else, could make a character that really needed those extra powers. Even then, there's all the additional slots you'd be getting. I think the number of slots as it was, was perfect. Yeah, sometimes I wish I had an extra slot or two, but I always made due. With that many additional levels, I'd have excess slots. And that just doesn't sound cool. This game doesn't need to be any easier than it already was.

Also, raising the level cap means creating brand new content for 50-60. Sure, I guess you could just make all the existing level 50 content scale up to 60, but that just doesn't...feel right, or something. Also, IOs scale with levels, and level 60 IOs would be insane. Base level 60 IOs granting more of a percentage than pre-I3 HOs, purple sets that only enhance one boost (like damage) giving 75%! That doesn't even include Enhancement Boosters. Sure, there's ED, but with this much of a percentage increase, characters will be becoming vastly more powerful. Add on top of this having extra powers and slots. No thanks.

Speaking of IOs, if I were to, say, get my character(s) back as a level 50, fully decked out in IOs and with +5 Enhancement Boosters, the disappoint of knowing all those level 50 enhancements are useless because there are newer, better level 60 ones would just be too much to bear.

This. The Paragon team have said numerous times, 50 is the perfect cap for balance.