New efforts!

[darkgob]

They were both mini expansions. But what's the point in releasing an expansion with a new playable faction only to have it merge with an existing faction. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed both of them but I don't understand why every game linked to cryptic can't design enough content for more than one faction to play. City of Heroes had the problem where it didn't start out with villains but when they did create villains it atleast had content to allow you to level to the current max. Both Going Rogue and Romulus did not come close. However we did have more praetorian content added over time and the praetorians themselves were actually two factions in one with the resistance and loyalists.

That said with all the cash cryptic and pwe are making on lockboxes they had no excuse to release an incomplete faction like they did with the romulus.

Multiple factions do work and have worked just fine in many other mmos but those usually start out with atleast two factions and both have enough content to level to max with multiple pathways.

Except as it is, hardly anyone plays the second "full" faction, the Klingons.  Most people stick to Fed, and a full Romulan faction would likely have even less draw than the Klingons.  Why design all that content if it's barely going to be used?

It's really somewhat academic anyway, since leveling in STO is a joke and the real game now starts at 50 like every other MMO.

[MGLZadok]

I would argue that CoH's F2P iteration is one of the only successful examples of the F2P model.

Since the conversation is specifically about MMOs, I'll assume you mean F2P models of MMOs.  As far as that goes, it may be the most successful model, but I still think the most fair and ideal version of a F2P model is one where paying for anything that affects gameplay is optional.  New powersets or ATs would be purchasable with an in-game, non-tradeable currency earned side-by-side with XP OR real-world money.  This means the fastest way to new content is real money but you have the option to play free.  Anything that doesn't affect gameplay (costume pieces, emotes, etc) is real money only.  It's that successful League of Legends model that I love so much.  The one that allows them to give $5 Million prizes for their championship series and the reason that they're so popular that colleges are adding e-sports teams for it.

If you can get all of the cheapskates who only play free games playing and they decide "Oh I have to have that new costume set, it's sick", they'll shell out the $5 or so.  Then you get them again.  And again.  And they never add up how much they pay.  And even if only 25% of players buy something at $5 a piece, that's still $1.25 Million if you have a million players (an idealistic number but League has more than that simply because it's free).  And that's just one item.

[Rayderoth]

The one thing that irked me about CoX's hybrid model, was that powersets that I previously had access to as a subber before the switch, were made inaccessible to me after.

At the point where it went freemium I couldn't afford to sub. So I lost access to my Gravity/Thorns Dom. :/

When it comes back, I'm definitely dropping some cash on a year-long sub, the sinister/justice costume pack, and the Titan Weapons powerset.

[Abraxus]

Obviously, with so few details available about the "how/when" of the game coming back, we are still completely in the dark on how the new account server will work, and how the stores will operate.  Do they too come back just as they were at the time of I23, with the same things available?  Or will things change somewhat due to the fact that this is a rebirth of sorts, and there is time to ponder how to do it in a way befitting of that situation, and how not to do it based on the first go-around.

As with so many things about the potential 2nd chance for this game, I sit in eager anticipation of finding out things like that, as much as when I will be able to play again.

[Felderburg]

Originally sto was supposed to have several player factions instead klingon/federation.

I'm pretty sure that was only in the Perpetual Entertainment version of the game, which didn't get too far beyond concept art.

Realistically speaking, multiple factions mostly don't work.  You either have everyone play the same content (which is what started happening in CoH's, and is now happening in STO), or you develop a bunch of content for various factions that never gets played because one faction (the original, usually) is always the most popular.  You could give each faction something truly unique that should theoretically balance the playerbase between them, but that's a really tough balancing act.

The big problem with STO and factions is the source material. Even if STO had started with 3 factions, with equal and unique content, Feds would vastly outnumber anyone else because they're the main characters. I think other games that have original stories won't have quite the same problem.

[Rayderoth]

Obviously, with so few details available about the "how/when" of the game coming back, we are still completely in the dark on how the new account server will work, and how the stores will operate.  Do they too come back just as they were at the time of I23, with the same things available?  Or will things change somewhat due to the fact that this is a rebirth of sorts, and there is time to ponder how to do it in a way befitting of that situation, and how not to do it based on the first go-around.

As with so many things about the potential 2nd chance for this game, I sit in eager anticipation of finding out things like that, as much as when I will be able to play again.

Assuming the current deal does go through, since we're looking at a snapshot of the server as it was during i23, the game client and server side parts of the account and shop systems will be identical to what they were at sunset. What will have to be remade, are the systems that handle the web side of things, such as account registration and web login/subbing.

Oh and probably all relevant database and table structures. Unless NCSoft just happens to still have that mapped out along with any and all relevant procedures and permissions for accessing and manipulating data (blah, blah, blah). They might also be allowed to migrate the structure of the db but not be allowed to touch the data, or have to wipe it after copying it.

But yeah we don't really know much beyond the server and client state, and that the negotiations are still going on. /sigh.

[Thunder Glove]

The one thing that irked me about CoX's hybrid model, was that powersets that I previously had access to as a subber before the switch, were made inaccessible to me after.

At the point where it went freemium I couldn't afford to sub. So I lost access to my Gravity/Thorns Dom. :/

That doesn't sound right.  Neither Gravity nor Thorns were powersets that F2Ps had to unlock (only Dark Assault, Dark Control, and Electric Control were restricted), and neither was the Dominator class (only Mastermind, Controller, and the EATs were restricted).

What you did lose was access to all your characters, instead being given a limited number of Character Slot Tokens.  I know it was a while ago now, but did you use those tokens on other characters so that you had none left to unlock the Grav/Thorns Dom?

[MWRuger]

I personally, think Praetorian content should have gone to 50.

It was really cool making an alternate version of my main, until I realized the faction didn't matter twenty levels in.

But I can't complain, it was the funnest twenty levels I had to slog through.

I would have loved that. I had some guys that I stopped leveling in hope that it would happen. However, I remember reading that that the devs thought there was "Pretorian fatigue" and were moving away from gold side.  Certainly understandable considering every Incarnate Trial was focused there.

But, ya know, this would have been a perfect test of the F2P model. Over time, design the additional content (ala sig story arcs) and make it only available for purchase. People who didn't want it could skip it and those who did could pay for it. I'm sure I would have been happy to buy content in 5 to 10 level hunks.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Let's also not forget that we got issues (mini expansions) completely free since day one. Excluding city of villains (which was given to us to us for free with the ncsoft purchase of city of heroes) and then Going rogue (which was eventually part of city of heroes freedom) Dual blades, willpower, arachnos soldiers, arachnos widows and probably some other powersets im forgetting that subscribers got for free.

Now show me another mmo with free game expansions. Even to this day you have to pay for the oldest world of warcraft expansions, none of them are free. If swg was still around you'd have to pay for "rage of the wookies" and "trials of obiwaan" ("jump to lightspeed" became free) and last I checked everquest is still getting paid expansions and all of the previous expansions have to be bought.

People complain about what we have to pay for but look at all we got for free. Granted a world of warcraft expansion is billions times larger than many of our expansions but you also have to wait 1 - 2 years to get a single expansion.

As someone who plays wow, I do have to make a note here that WoW does get Mini-Expansions every few months, they are called Patches over in WoW but that is how all the new Raids and what not get released.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

The one thing that irked me about CoX's hybrid model, was that powersets that I previously had access to as a subber before the switch, were made inaccessible to me after.

At the point where it went freemium I couldn't afford to sub. So I lost access to my Gravity/Thorns Dom. :/

When it comes back, I'm definitely dropping some cash on a year-long sub, the sinister/justice costume pack, and the Titan Weapons powerset.

It's also worth noting that before CoH went freemium the number of characters and powersets you would've had access to after dropping your sub was... well, zero. Nil. Nada. An empty set.
Complaining that it irked you that you couldn't access all your characters in CoH's hybrid model without a sub is a little absurd since before it you would've had access to no characters at all without a sub.


For what it's worth i was perfectly fine with some powersets and costume pieces requiring a separate purchase on top of my subscription. After all, with the points that came with my sub i could unlock access to a lot more than was available before the new business model. On top of that i could throw money at a studio i loved to gain access to many times more goodies than before the new model, which i happily did. (Except the emote pack, which i eventually did acquire some time later. i don't remember if there was a sale or some other bonus/promotion, but initially i felt it was too expensive for too little. Despite that i didn't begrudge those who felt it was worth it.)

[Noyjitat]

I'm pretty sure that was only in the Perpetual Entertainment version of the game, which didn't get too far beyond concept art.

The big problem with STO and factions is the source material. Even if STO had started with 3 factions, with equal and unique content, Feds would vastly outnumber anyone else because they're the main characters. I think other games that have original stories won't have quite the same problem.

Nope it was certainly one of cryptics many failed promises with the game. Playing since alpha for it and all the changes that came the game certainly looked like it had a much brighter future back then. I'm not too sure if I can truly put all the blame on cryptic this time however, since atari pushed them to launch the game way too early. Cardassians and a number of factions were supposed to be available and when it came time to put Klingons in they decided to make them a pvp only thing for awhile. And that's the big reason why Klingons to this day have less pve content to run.

[Noyjitat]

As someone who plays wow, I do have to make a note here that WoW does get Mini-Expansions every few months, they are called Patches over in WoW but that is how all the new Raids and what not get released.

I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts when I referred to ice crown citadel. That content is already made with the paid expansion and they don't bring it out on the test server or live until the paid expansion has been live for a few months so the hardcore guilds can't burn through all the raid and dungeon content in a short period of time. It's a strategy they use to retain players from leaving the game shortly after an expansion launch.

[MM3squints]

That doesn't sound right.  Neither Gravity nor Thorns were powersets that F2Ps had to unlock (only Dark Assault, Dark Control, and Electric Control were restricted), and neither was the Dominator class (only Mastermind, Controller, and the EATs were restricted).

What you did lose was access to all your characters, instead being given a limited number of Character Slot Tokens.  I know it was a while ago now, but did you use those tokens on other characters so that you had none left to unlock the Grav/Thorns Dom?

Yup the freemium model block off the use of MM and Trollers unless you get tier 5 in the the store ladder.

paragonwiki.com/wiki/Paragon_Rewards_Program#Tier_5_Bonus

For dom being blocked off, I don't know about that

[Thunder Glove]

Right.  So a Gravity Control/Thorns Dominator should have not been blocked by the switch to F2P.

Very few sets were actually blocked by that switch, and all of them were introduced with Going Rogue itself, if not later. The full list, across all ATs, is Dual Pistols, Kinetic Melee, Time Manipulation, Electric Control, Darkness Control, and Darkness Assault for the free ATs, plus Darkness Affinity and Demon Summoning for the ATs that themselves needed to be unlocked (Controllers and Masterminds, respectively).

So if Rayderoth couldn't play his Grav/Thorns Dom without a subscription after Going Rogue went live, it had nothing to do with those power sets or the AT.

[Noyjitat]

Right.  So a Gravity Control/Thorns Dominator should have not been blocked by the switch to F2P.

Very few sets were actually blocked by that switch, and all of them were introduced with Going Rogue itself, if not later. The full list, across all ATs, is Dual Pistols, Kinetic Melee, Time Manipulation, Electric Control, Darkness Control, and Darkness Assault for the free ATs, plus Darkness Affinity and Demon Summoning for the ATs that themselves needed to be unlocked (Controllers and Masterminds, respectively).

So if Rayderoth couldn't play his Grav/Thorns Dom without a subscription after Going Rogue went live, it had nothing to do with those power sets or the AT.

Most likely didn't have enough global character slots.

[rebel 1812]

I would argue that CoH's F2P iteration is one of the only successful examples of the F2P model.

well you would be arguing up stream.  Almost all MMO's are free-to-play or are going free-to-play.  The reason is simple it makes more money.  The costs to maintain and make new content isn't that great.  So why not welcome customers that want to pay less.  Pure subscription models shows these customers the door. 

[FloatingFatMan]

The costs to maintain and make new content isn't that great. 

And you know this how, exactly?  Content creation is far from cheap, you know.  There are artists, writers, musicians, modellers and developers, all who have to be paid to create that cheap content...

[LaughingAlex]

Yup the freemium model block off the use of MM and Trollers unless you get tier 5 in the the store ladder.

paragonwiki.com/wiki/Paragon_Rewards_Program#Tier_5_Bonus

For dom being blocked off, I don't know about that

Dominators were not blocked.  The reason for masterminds was for server reasons, but controllers I think was to be fair for villain side, but also because newbies would do horrible on a controller.  They were the closest to a "pure support" class but they did many times more things than healing, requiring you to know how to play a defender and a dominator at the same time effectively.  Newbies wouldn't fully understand the concept of "Active defense through crowd control" or buffs/debuffs so they'd generally do horribly on controllers.  Heck, I remember seeing a person who turned out to be a totally ignorant noob that had plants/empathy, none of the crowd control and exclusively healing abilities and medicine to.  And two reses.  When I told the person he didn't need medicine and should take his crowd control, he exploded on me calling me a noob in global hoping to "expose" me, all he did was expose himself as an idiot.

[Waffles]

Speaking of the Darkness powerset...

How bloody cool would it have been if the Dark Blast set got 'updated' with the inky graphics from Dark Control? Or at the least, given a custom alternative, like with Spines.

[rebel 1812]

And you know this how, exactly?  Content creation is far from cheap, you know.  There are artists, writers, musicians, modellers and developers, all who have to be paid to create that cheap content...

exactly.  Just some salaries which are already being paid.  This isn't like other business where you have to hire materials to produce products or hire more staff to increase production.  This is why even small increases in revenue are worth it since the salary costs to provide a game for 1 million users and 2 million users won't be that different.