Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7270076 times)

Abraxus

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17300 on: May 25, 2015, 03:39:24 PM »
This is the scenario that they (NCSoft) seem totally oblivious to.  The fact that, given enough time, even the tried and true believers will lose interest, and fall away.  At some point, the reasons why don't even matter, and all that is left is an opportunity lost for reasons we may never know.  I desperately hope that is not what happens here, but hope itself gets increasingly difficult to hold on to when there is no reason to do so.  They are treading into the territory where faith, rather than hope is what is needed, and that is a much harder commodity to come by.

I keep coming back every day, but it gets increasingly difficult to justify.  If this is the universe testing our resolve, it needs to throw us just a small bone, because life is too short to pine away for something for years with no indication of success.

Yes, today I have given into despair.  Tomorrow may be better, but today I feel every hour we have waited.
What was no more, is now reborn!

Tubbius

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17301 on: May 25, 2015, 03:48:19 PM »
Someone could be taking a look at the negativity on here and saying, "Well, if these supposedly devoted former fans are saying they're ready to move on to other stuff, just want all this over, and don't seem to care if news is positive or negative by now, let's just drop the deal altogether."  Even jokes about NCSoft or jabs at their failings with their latest games can be taken wrong.

I'd hate to see that happen.  I want to see the game back.  For now, let's try to stay positive about all this and continue to let folks know just how much we do want this beloved game to return.

darkgob

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17302 on: May 25, 2015, 03:57:14 PM »
How could you expect less? I get more and more irritated with this pancake everytime a week passes and no news. I guess I don't understand why they simply can't sell the property they own and are not making a dime on it at all while it sits.

Someone there needs to take note of all the rage and desperation here and push things along.

Given that NCSoft is in the middle of defending against at attempted corporate takeover and doesn't really care that much about the CoH IP to begin with, it's not surprising that it's talking this long.  I seriously doubt anyone at NCSoft is even thinking about this right now.

FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17303 on: May 25, 2015, 04:13:16 PM »
Given that NCSoft is in the middle of defending against at attempted corporate takeover and doesn't really care that much about the CoH IP to begin with, it's not surprising that it's talking this long.  I seriously doubt anyone at NCSoft is even thinking about this right now.

Many of us are starting to doubt they were thinking about it seriously before the takeover bit, either.

Ironwolf

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17304 on: May 25, 2015, 04:29:40 PM »
Floating Fat Man, you are in despair.

Nate has said while not in this thread in other places a group IS working on getting things done. The whole Multi-BILLION dollar take over attempt that is being made because Nexon wants some of NCSoft's properties makes someone selling CoH another one of their properties move very carefully. The guy making the deal obviously does not wish to anger someone who may if their side wins come back and say - why did you sell this?

There may also be legal issues for selling something under Korean laws once a takeover attempt is being made.

Here are a few strategies companies use to stop Hostile takeovers (under Korean Law any takeover is treated the same):

Make the Firm Undesirable. To keep you from wanting to acquire the corporation, the managers may make taking over the firm unattractive. The managers can legally obligate the firm to engage in costly actions if you succeed in taking it over. For example, in the event of a hostile takeover, some unattractive obligations include:

    Scorched earth policy: The corporation must sell valuable assets.
    Golden parachutes: Key employees (the current managers) receive very high severance pay.
    Poison pill: The corporation must make stock available at bargain prices to original shareholders (but not someone who takes over the firm) if the firm is taken over, thereby diluting the value of the new owner's stock.

Firms may change the state in which they incorporate to take advantage of the new state's strong anti-takeover laws that permit such types of behavior.

Similarly, the current managers may make the assets of the firm illiquid (not easily sold) so as to raise the cost of borrowing money to take over the firm. Suppose you want to take over the firm but do not have enough money to buy the firm. You may be able to borrow the money by issuing junk bonds using the assets and earning potential of the firm as security to guarantee bond payments. If the firm has a large amount of cash or a liquid asset (one that is easy to sell quickly), buyers of bonds know that you can easily pay back the bond. If, instead, the managers invest the firm's cash in real estate, which takes time to resell and whose future value may be hard to predict, potential bondholders are less inclined to loan you the money. They will only be willing to buy the bonds (if at all) if you raise the interest payments on the bonds. Thus, if the firm's assets are illiquid so that your costs of raising money are higher, you have less of an incentive to try to take over the firm.

So NCSoft may have a policy of holding these assets so as not to enable others to raise money from them. A deal is ongoing, but we don't know the details. You can choose to be negative - or you can choose to be positive it is your choice.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17305 on: May 25, 2015, 04:40:09 PM »
Someone could be taking a look at the negativity on here and saying, "Well, if these supposedly devoted former fans are saying they're ready to move on to other stuff, just want all this over, and don't seem to care if news is positive or negative by now, let's just drop the deal altogether."  Even jokes about NCSoft or jabs at their failings with their latest games can be taken wrong.

I'd hate to see that happen.  I want to see the game back.  For now, let's try to stay positive about all this and continue to let folks know just how much we do want this beloved game to return.

I wholly agree with this guy.  Negativity to me only serves to further discourage those who'd otherwise have hopes for this.  I still have hopes for this, and it gives me another negative thought; "pancaking traitor".  I saw a few in CO who were exactly that, they gave up 100% on any chance of CoH coming back, went to CO, praised every bad thing it does, and left me feeling betrayed and angry.  The people in question, I don't talk to them at all anymore, and I don't recall ever meeting them in roleplaying after a point.  But I also met people who claimed to be CoH fans and very, very clearly weren't, even saying things that were not at all true about the game and then even speaking poorly of it in some channels.

We don't need that crap here.  We really don't.

So lets bring things back to a positive light.  The above game, CO, has no hope of a comeback if it shuts, zero, zip, zilch.  But city of heroes has a very, very strong chance sooner or later, and it's because it was an actually good game.  And because it was a good game it managed to form a community that was actually a very good community.  And that community was not in a constant, endless state of civil war.  Here we have a community that could hold civilized discussions.  Here we have a community that, when city of heroes shut down, had talents that started immediately working on a spiritual successor, three spiritual successors actually.  And talents that are negotiating right now.

Many gaming communities?  They don't have that in any form whatsoever.  I can tell when they lack it.  Or when they had driven it away.  We are better then that and above that.  And we don't need to let a few dragging us down.

Edit: And I wanted to say, that we are able to hold civilized discussions inspite our differences, after all this time is a hell of a sign of a strong and lively community.
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FloatingFatMan

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17306 on: May 25, 2015, 04:52:58 PM »
Floating Fat Man, you are in despair.

Oh, you have NO idea, mate... You really don't...

I WANT MY EFFING GAME BACK, DAMMIT!

We all have our stories with this game, but for me, this game gave me something very very important at a time of my life when -everything- was going wrong.  It gave me some great and lifelong friends, it gave me years of enjoyment, and most of all, beyond everything else, when my mum died from Alzheimers and my world started to fall apart, it gave me something to hang on to.

Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17307 on: May 25, 2015, 04:58:54 PM »
How could you expect less? I get more and more irritated with this pancake everytime a week passes and no news. I guess I don't understand why they simply can't sell the property they own and are not making a dime on it at all while it sits.

Someone there needs to take note of all the rage and desperation here and push things along.

Well, actually,

WE Don't Know if they are profiting from the closure. WE just don't have a good idea HOW they could be profiting IF they are.

For all we know they could have some sort of deal with their stockholders, like; the stockholders will lend an extra 10% (or give 10% debt forgiveness, or cancel the need for NCSoft to pay interest on past stocks).

From what it sounds like, we are assuming ONE of the possible reasons for CoX's shutdown was the financial backers led by Nexon calling foul and demanding the closure of the small profit titles to maximize their stock earnings. IF, IF that were true, then it would stand to reason that in an M,M (Money for Money) market the only bargaining tools would be Money. Naturally they'd make an offer of increased Money to NCSoft without interest in exchange for the shutdown of smaller titles, because in their mind they see "I pay you # million now, the interest rate goes up and you will continually pay me more than that over time".

AKA the broken capitalist model of M for M+ (Read Karl Marx's works, its the start of financial fascism because it's the sign of a deteriorating capitalist market)

to reference Marx, fascism is the distortion of capitalism, communism is the distortion of socialism. Also from marx and others, Money is a representation of labor to produce goods and services. The best model is C,C (Commodity for Commodity) AKA trade & bartering. however that isn't always possible, so money was created as a way to exchange goods for a neutral value that could be exchanged for anything, then this is exchanged for another commodity eventually. This model is CMC (Commodity for Money For Commodity), it's a modified and functional model of CC.

Marx says Capitalism forms when the model flips to MCM (Money for a Commodity for Money) this usually means Buying Labor aka becoming a 'capitalist'. The Laborer could work for him/her self and whatever they made they got to keep, however if someone buys your labor then they get to decide how much of your profits (including any surplus you made) that you get to keep and how much they take away for doing relatively nothing except organizing the group of laborers. In the MCM model they are in it for MCM+ (money for commodity for MORE money) so you will not get your surplus and they may not even pay you a decent working salary. Eventually people forget what money represents and end up creating money inflating groups (M for M+) such as offering interest and trading currencies, they cut out the labor and commodity directly and believe they can use money to get more money, this is a fascist financial market as stated by Karl Marx.

This is my evidence to support my claim made above about the POSSIBILITY that NCSoft is being paid to cancel less productive titles, not to say CoX was a poor profit game, it just didn't even-out with the other games. Stocks work off the overall profit or loss of the company as a whole, so the stockholders naturally want to make it easier to calculate their ability to profit by balancing out the profits from all games in the company as much as possible. This even means extremes such as pruning an incredibly highly successful title if it is too much more successful than the other titles owned by that company.

As rich people Lie, "if you want to be rich, then take risks" what they really mean is "if you want to be rich do M,M+ and take a risky situation and use your money to blackmail the risk into a situation where it's no longer risky."

What else could be the reason why NCSoft don't seem to care much or take it seriously, Yes Exactly as you said! CoX represents a Value, the longer that value sits without being used the more losses NCSoft is taking because that is money they COULD be making.

Time is a commodity as well, failing to make proper use of your time when you have it creates losses!

The only valid consolation is that NCSoft must be receiving compensation for their losses in exchange for the fact that those losses are taking place to keep the company's overall profits streamlined and predictable.

We must remember NCSoft is the Capitalist (MCM+), and they are being Bullied and blackmailed by the Fascists(M,M+)

The terms they agreed to to get the compensation for their losses obviously didn't stop them from selling the title, so long as it doesn't become an active money making value in their company, they can sell it and have someone else profit from it and continue to get the compensation for not profiting from it themselves.

There is a red line there, that by selling the game they would technically be making profits from it, and sudden profits at that, this would create an unforeseen spike in stock price, no matter how small, this may cause the M,M+ people to call foul.

That being said, there is a way around it, which is to split the deal up into small segments and payments, only 10000 easy payments of $99.99 one for each development phase! In this way there is no sudden profit spike and thus no complaints from the fascist bullies. It also means the deal will go down VERY SLOWLY. Which is bad for us who so badly want the game back in the short term.

There is also a mauve line that the M,M+ bullies may try to call the deal out on and I'm sure NCSoft knows they may try it (Hence the NDA on the deal), the M,M+ bullies could say "We only offered you the extra profits if you own that game and keep it dead" even though the words in red were not in the agreements nor agreed-to and may have only been loosely hinted to at all during any part of the process. This may require a short legal proceeding or a settlement, for all we know OUR deal could be done and NCSoft is just preparing an 'instant' rebuttal against this claim so they don't have to spend time in court.

ANOTHER Possibility is that because NCSoft is being paid to keep the game dead, they are looking at our deal in an unrealistic sense. kinda like if you were to take a blueprint for some nice machine to a company that doesn't make machines or has no need for the profits, so they are just extra. They will eyeball it say "this is very nice" then hold a meeting where it's discussed QUICKLY and determined that "we aren't loosing anything from not doing it, we will still make money in the current market from not doing it, it's a nice thought, but may be only wishful thinking until the situation changes. lets not put any effort into it till we think we need to."

The best option I would like to think is happening is that everything is going smoothly and it's just taking a while to reconfigure the server and add/remove whatever it is they need to add/remove to make it work.

For all we know they could be mulling over something like finishing the incarnate content, or finishing the next issue so the game isn't left looking like it's in a state of forever unfinished limbo. Remember the Paragon dev team halted making new content the moment the shutdown was announced so there's probably a lot of stuff that's unfinished. It's not like they can ask the paragon team what they were going to do either, that would require getting them all together and letting them hammer that out. And they probably don't have time to do that, or wont do that for free and when I say 'free' I mean it's kinda bad ethically, like not politically correct 'kinda bad'; to ask your former employees (whom you fired for their work on a game and gave them no other employment opportunities effectively dropping them on the street) to come back in and finish some content they never got to before you fired them with a kinda slap in the face note "no, this doesn't mean you have a job here again, and this work is only temporary till you're done."

So, NCSoft and our crew could very well be hammering that out carefully making sure to try and keep things in the same light and such that the paragon dev team would have done. That will take a lot of research, time and effort. Remember it's not like they can just "get the game back and go", this is a game that will be set to AUTO RUN ITSELF and there will be NO FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITIES for it after this final reconfiguring stage.

They probably have a list of things needing to be done!
1: fix the core level bugs in the code. (the server CANNOT successfully run itself if they are there, they'd need to pay GMs to get people unstuck and kill sticky missions etc.)
2: get it into a state where it can run itself and needs little if any maintenance. (more than just bugs, the server maintenance they always did will still have to be done, but they need to establish WHAT the list of maintenance things to be done IS and program that into a moderating program which will run the server and kill it and run it again when necessary.
3: switch who the shop pays out to, and switch the shops URL location, and set-up the new shop
4: Reconfigure the profit scheme - we all whine about it, but they probably will do it, However they probably wont change it so much that it offends anyone, probably just minor changes so you can't get all the new Nicey stuff for free just for being a vip and saving up your monthly store points..

and that's all I can think of, but there could be more.


but this is just Educated [AND CITED] speculation, it's an Educated Guess, and could be Very Wrong.

This concludes my statement on HOW NCSoft COULD be profiting from the closure and possibly how it MIGHT but MAY NOT BE effecting our deal.

To be very clear, this post is meant to attempt to clarify certain possibilities WHILE asserting the very important point that Although I may have /a/ citation this time, I actually don't know ANY inside information about the deal, as such it's just a guess and could be and should be considered as WRONG until the time comes that it is shown to be right or wrong by the deal finally being FINISHED.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

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Angel Phoenix77

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17308 on: May 25, 2015, 05:17:05 PM »
Bingo!  And I'll be as positive about the negotiations tomorrow as I was yesterday.....and will be until it returns.

Positive but impatient... ;)
I like how you think :), this is where I am at as well, I have seen the alternatives and they are not enough to sway me. Like the Floating I too wish the deal would get done, however, I am willing to wait. :)
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Vee

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17309 on: May 25, 2015, 05:35:13 PM »
Joshex, you didn't actually need a citation but so long as you're emphasizing it I think I should point out that "Marx's works" is hardly a citation. Just sayin'.

Baja

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17310 on: May 25, 2015, 06:24:24 PM »
Nexon, despite being a company I'm really not a fan of, sold the rights to Dungeon Fighter Online back to its creators neople. This to me is kind of a light in the dark alley seeing that this implies they are willing to do business when it comes to the selling of rights. Honestly DFO is a great game to, well it's a pvp'rs wet dream so I suppose "great game" is probably a bit much considering today's standards. Anyways it's summer time so really I suggest getting outside and doing something! Some of us only get 3 months of it!

Twisted Toon

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17311 on: May 25, 2015, 06:57:16 PM »
If it takes 10 years to return, I will still jump on it with as much rabid enthusiasm as if it were re-launched yesterday.

Be sure to get your shots from the vet.  :P

I wholly agree with this guy.  Negativity to me only serves to further discourage those who'd otherwise have hopes for this. 

I agree. Hope, much like anything else, is a choice. I choose to be hopeful. Yes, there are incidents, actions, and occurrences that tend to lean in one direction or the other. But, I still choose to hope.

Dum Spiro, Spero.
"While I breathe, I hope."

Also...

Patience is a virtue.
Virtue is a grace.
Grace is a girl with a dirty face.

Therefore, Patience is a girl with a dirty face.
Hope never abandons you, you abandon it. - George Weinberg

Hope ... is not a feeling; it is something you do. - Katherine Paterson

Nobody really cares if you're miserable, so you might as well be happy. - Cynthia Nelms

Illusionss

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17312 on: May 25, 2015, 07:35:08 PM »
Someone could be taking a look at the negativity on here and saying, "Well, if these supposedly devoted former fans are saying they're ready to move on to other stuff, just want all this over, and don't seem to care if news is positive or negative by now, let's just drop the deal altogether."  Even jokes about NCSoft or jabs at their failings with their latest games can be taken wrong.

I'd hate to see that happen.  I want to see the game back.  For now, let's try to stay positive about all this and continue to let folks know just how much we do want this beloved game to return.

Dude, you are thinking that NC cares about either our rage OR our hope. They just don't care, and they never did.

However, a SMART corporate entity would look at such comments and go, "Wow, we'd best get our monies QUICK, before those devoted fans become devoted to the new shiny! What if we held a sale and nobody came! Get such-and-so on the phone immediately, we need to get that ink dry on the deal ASAP!!"

But with not-so-savvy, you see no such enlightenment - and that's why we are where we are now: waitin' for CoT.

Illusionss

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17313 on: May 25, 2015, 07:40:59 PM »
If it takes 10 years to return, I will still jump on it with as much rabid enthusiasm as if it were re-launched yesterday.

I would be there, too. WITH the following caveat:

*Game returns now. I am there all-out, busybusybusy leveling up my beloved alts again, happy as a clam and devoting a great deal of my leisure time to the game. We would all be so happy! the teams would never stop rollin'. Successor games will have my support, but CoX forever.

*Game returns years from now. I am still there, out of nostalgia. BUT....the main action is over in CoT, where the teams never stop rollin' and wow, lookit the graphics.

ivanhedgehog

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17314 on: May 25, 2015, 07:43:07 PM »
This is the scenario that they (NCSoft) seem totally oblivious to.  The fact that, given enough time, even the tried and true believers will lose interest, and fall away.  At some point, the reasons why don't even matter, and all that is left is an opportunity lost for reasons we may never know.  I desperately hope that is not what happens here, but hope itself gets increasingly difficult to hold on to when there is no reason to do so.  They are treading into the territory where faith, rather than hope is what is needed, and that is a much harder commodity to come by.

I keep coming back every day, but it gets increasingly difficult to justify.  If this is the universe testing our resolve, it needs to throw us just a small bone, because life is too short to pine away for something for years with no indication of success.

Yes, today I have given into despair.  Tomorrow may be better, but today I feel every hour we have waited.

as soon as any of the successor project goes to beta the coh IP will lose a lot of value. whats keeping it up is that there is no alternative. once there is one coh becomes a "remember that cool game way back when" we will see what happens

Illusionss

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17315 on: May 25, 2015, 07:45:25 PM »
Ivan, EXACT-AMENTO.

Arcana

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17316 on: May 25, 2015, 07:57:47 PM »
Icon was released within a day or so of someone pointing out the costume creator can run without an active network connection.

I wouldn't go that far.  I knew that the CC could run without a network connection back in 2004.  It was a topic of discussion back in 2005 on the official forums when the topic of an offline character creator was discussed.  And then of course there's the *actual* offline character creator that was released back then, which you could find if you googled hard enough (or could speak Korean).  The subject has popped up from time to time, but I think many of the more technically-savvy CoH players either knew or suspected this to be true for a while.

Also, if you had an exceptionally crummy internet connection back in the day and a severe case of alt-itis, you also probably knew this.  If you were in the CC and you totally lost your connection to the game, you wouldn't know this until you tried to save or exit out of it - whereupon the game would die.  But until then, the CC worked relatively autonomously well enough to survive a complete disconnect.  You had to be connected to launch it, but not to work inside it.

LaughingAlex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17317 on: May 25, 2015, 08:20:32 PM »
As I said i'm positive.  And very patient.

Right now i'm just playing the occasional single player game, while hanging out with the few friends I do have in CO or DCUO on occasion.  I admit, my patience and resolve had moments, to, but truthfully it just seems there is always something that strengthens my resolve, be it here or even the attitude of players I do meet who I know would love to try CoH out if it came back.

Heck, the fact that many players I know from city of heroes still believe city of heroes to be the better game only strengthens that morale.  Some of them who had played both have even said(in their own words) "City of heroes is hundreds of times the game CO ever was".  This was a guy who played CO first and moved to City of heroes.  People are curious and they'd love to give the game a chance if possible.  Only the cultist-like fanboys of CO are the ones who'll never move on from CO, everyone else is ready to move on or move back.
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Joshex

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17318 on: May 25, 2015, 09:02:24 PM »
Joshex, you didn't actually need a citation but so long as you're emphasizing it I think I should point out that "Marx's works" is hardly a citation. Just sayin'.

lol, fair enough. Just saying, he's kinda famous, so saying Karl Marx is enough for most people, typically I should give the date too but I can't be bothered.  :P

Nexon, despite being a company I'm really not a fan of, sold the rights to Dungeon Fighter Online back to its creators neople. This to me is kind of a light in the dark alley seeing that this implies they are willing to do business when it comes to the selling of rights. Honestly DFO is a great game to, well it's a pvp'rs wet dream so I suppose "great game" is probably a bit much considering today's standards. Anyways it's summer time so really I suggest getting outside and doing something! Some of us only get 3 months of it!

I'm willing to admit, that maybe Nexon is a good-guy, fascist or not. But this is all yet to be proven for CoX in specific, again, they could just be a publisher trying to get a bigger place in the market. that could be good or bad. I'm tempted to send them an email but don;t want to encourage them to think they should give NCSoft any more hassles. Even just contacting them to get their opinion and plans for CoX would probably make them feel all big and powerful and pull something. Now if Nexon were watching us here and decided to post their official goals concerning the takeover and CoX itself and was willing to do a little Q& A to see if we approve of what they will do with the title once they have it, then, yeah by all means DO THAT.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

duane

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Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17319 on: May 25, 2015, 10:07:25 PM »
Anyways it's summer time so really I suggest getting outside and doing something! Some of us only get 3 months of it!

There's deck's to stain, walls to paint and a garden full of weeds and flowers to find from last year!