Author Topic: New efforts!  (Read 7273196 times)

The Fifth Horseman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
  • Outside known realities.
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17320 on: May 25, 2015, 10:31:50 PM »
I wouldn't go that far.  I knew that the CC could run without a network connection back in 2004.  It was a topic of discussion back in 2005 on the official forums when the topic of an offline character creator was discussed.  And then of course there's the *actual* offline character creator that was released back then, which you could find if you googled hard enough (or could speak Korean).  The subject has popped up from time to time, but I think many of the more technically-savvy CoH players either knew or suspected this to be true for a while.
Possibly, but as you can see here, that is how it happened:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7243.msg89318.html#msg89318

(EDIT: Well, turns out my memory is failing - Codewalker pulled it off in under 2.5 hours, not just 24 hours. :p)
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

Burnt Toast

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
  • Tastes Good!
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17321 on: May 25, 2015, 11:33:01 PM »

In your opinion...


While I am looking forward to VO very much... The minute CoH comes out my time with VO will GREATLY be reduced. As for the other projects... no interest in them at all. So I can happily play and devote money to two titles very easily :)



as soon as any of the successor project goes to beta the coh IP will lose a lot of value. whats keeping it up is that there is no alternative. once there is one coh becomes a "remember that cool game way back when" we will see what happens

Vee

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,376
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17322 on: May 26, 2015, 12:58:21 AM »
lol, fair enough. Just saying, he's kinda famous, so saying Karl Marx is enough for most people, typically I should give the date too but I can't be bothered.  :P


It was plenty, actually you didn't even have to mention it was from Marx. I just found it funny that the citation was for easily over 1000 pages. You don't come anywhere close to the record on such things though. I had a professor who was once asked a question by another student and his response was "oh, you need to go read the Frankfurt school," which would be a ridiculous request even if he said to go read one of them, much less all of them.

kiario

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 166
  • CoH Fanboy
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17323 on: May 26, 2015, 04:38:24 AM »
DDO is now on its 27th update. DDO was released in 2006.

Wonder what update CoH would be at if lit would be live today?

Optimus Dex

  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 121
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17324 on: May 26, 2015, 05:00:34 AM »
If it takes 10 years to return, I will still jump on it with as much rabid enthusiasm as if it were re-launched yesterday.

Well at 62 basically I hope it does not take 10 years. I want to play before I am decrepit.

FloatingFatMan

  • An Offal
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,178
  • Kheldian's Forever!
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17325 on: May 26, 2015, 05:56:55 AM »
lol, fair enough. Just saying, he's kinda famous, so saying Karl Marx is enough for most people, typically I should give the date too but I can't be bothered.  :P

Whenever I see someone quoting someone famous like Marx, my usual response is "Yeah, but he's just some old, dead guy."

Consider that response given. :P

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17326 on: May 26, 2015, 07:39:10 AM »
Possibly, but as you can see here, that is how it happened:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7243.msg89318.html#msg89318

(EDIT: Well, turns out my memory is failing - Codewalker pulled it off in under 2.5 hours, not just 24 hours. :p)

only one problem I'm finding with it, Icon seems to be able to find 1 costume file from my custom AE enemies, but can't seem to find my previous character costume files.... I verified they are there but for some reason icon wont see them.

no idea why.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

WildFire15

  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 96
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17327 on: May 26, 2015, 08:16:15 AM »
only one problem I'm finding with it, Icon seems to be able to find 1 costume file from my custom AE enemies, but can't seem to find my previous character costume files.... I verified they are there but for some reason icon wont see them.

no idea why.

Have you tried creating and saving a costume in Icon and then moving your old costume files into the folder the costume you just saved is in?

Joshex

  • [citation needed]
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,027
    • my talk page
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17328 on: May 26, 2015, 10:37:08 AM »
Have you tried creating and saving a costume in Icon and then moving your old costume files into the folder the costume you just saved is in?

no, I haven't, it'll probably work so thankyou. but it's odd it's seeing the AE costumes and not character ones, are they in different folders?

Never mind I lost my costumes it seems, oh well, I have screenshots..
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 10:43:03 AM by Joshex »
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Waffles

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 387
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17329 on: May 26, 2015, 05:30:59 PM »
Have you tried creating and saving a costume in Icon and then moving your old costume files into the folder the costume you just saved is in?

Every time I play with Icon my CoH woes only get worse. :\

Aggelakis

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,001
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17330 on: May 26, 2015, 06:16:00 PM »
but it's odd it's seeing the AE costumes and not character ones, are they in different folders?
Yes.
Bob Dole!! Bob Dole. Bob Dole! Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole... Bob Dole... Bob... Dole...... Bob...


ParagonWiki
OuroPortal

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17331 on: May 26, 2015, 06:26:42 PM »
Possibly, but as you can see here, that is how it happened:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7243.msg89318.html#msg89318

(EDIT: Well, turns out my memory is failing - Codewalker pulled it off in under 2.5 hours, not just 24 hours. :p)

I recall Icon's creation, but I don't recall Codewalker ever explicitly linking Icon to reverse engineering efforts.  It could have just been, you know, Codewalker.

GenericHero05

  • New Efforts # 7,000!
  • Boss
  • ****
  • Posts: 234
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17332 on: May 26, 2015, 07:44:54 PM »
Well at 62 basically I hope it does not take 10 years. I want to play before I am decrepit.

I'm with ya brother. I'm 52 and I'd like to play it again before I'm able to hide my own Easter eggs.
If I was a Jedi, there's a 100% chance that I'd use The Force inappropriately.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17333 on: May 27, 2015, 01:35:43 AM »
DDO is now on its 27th update. DDO was released in 2006.

Wonder what update CoH would be at if lit would be live today?

My guess is somewhere around Issue 31.

Just because I was bored and on a conference call, I decided to see just how hard it would actually be to write an MMO completely from scratch, with no specific MMO frameworks or anything.  After an hour of fiddling around in python, I have a game server that does nothing and a game client that recognizes keypress events.  I figure it would only take about ten thousand times more effort to turn that into a production-ready game.  Tomorrow, I might try to actually send those keypresses to the server and do something with them, like a chat client with a serious head injury.  I already have the UDP transport function written, might as well use it for something.

(I'm serious, but also of course this ain't going anywhere: I'm just curious to see how far it gets before I get tired of the exercise).

Felderburg

  • Ask me how I got this title!
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,615
  • Personal text? What's that?
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17334 on: May 27, 2015, 02:53:30 AM »
(I'm serious, but also of course this ain't going anywhere: I'm just curious to see how far it gets before I get tired of the exercise).

What if you were paid?
I used CIT before they even joined the Titan network! But then I left for a long ol' time, and came back. Now I edit the wiki.

I'm working on sorting the Lore AMAs so that questions are easily found and linked: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted Tell me what you think!

Pinnacle: The only server that faceplants before a fight! Member of the Pinnacle RP Congress (People's Elf of the CCCP); formerly @The Holy Flame

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17335 on: May 27, 2015, 07:41:14 AM »
What if you were paid?

I get paid a bit too much to switch jobs.  Plus, this is what passes for me for a hobby.  I've thought a lot about MMO design, and while I code like a gibbon trying to hit the right key that releases the banana snack, my design skills are better than average (maybe four standard deviations better than average, to be honest).  Its an interesting mental exercise to apply them to something real.  Honestly though if you wanted to pay someone to implement an MMO you'd actually be able to play before the Apocalypse, someone like Codewalker would probably be ten times faster than me.

The truth is players always think they know what's going on in their games and how they would make them better, and even in these threads a lot of people have commented on how easy it would be to do certain tasks.  But there's a huge difference between thinking and doing.  Until you've done it, you really don't know what you're talking about.  As recently as a week ago I didn't really think I had the time to even start an exercise like this, but this weekend I was thinking about it and decided even if for five minutes a day I'd see where my design notions go.

If I was trying to make a game for others to play, I'd start with a framework.  But I want to think about the systems from the ground up.  That's why I stopped where I did.  Seems silly to stop at a server that does nothing and a client that does almost nothing, but actually two feet out of the starting gate I've hit my first design nexus.  I'm leaning towards UDP, which means I have more control over how reliability and flow control work, but that also means I have to consider packet loss.  I could build guaranteed delivery on top of UDP, but that almost defeats the purpose of going UDP.  Drop detection and state recovery make more sense, but that then interacts with the design choice to run an input state engine for each client server-side or client-side.  Server-side state engines mean drop recovery will interact weirdly with client-side prediction, if I decide to implement prediction.  Client-side state engines make more sense for prediction and reduce server-side load, but they also mean more network traffic.

All of this would be easy enough to resolve, if it wasn't for the fact that they interact with time, and how the client and the server will track time.  Which means I need to think about time and how I want to design clocking, before I implement the networking system I want to work with that kind of clocking, which is important to how I design the protocols for client-side event messaging.  It all has to fit together.  In some ways I think CoH is much better at this than most players realize.  But in other areas, I think I could do better.  But until you actually try, its all speculation.  And because I want to think this through, I'm not referencing how other games do this as much as possible (which is to say, I know what I know, but I want to find original solutions to these problems and not copy pre-existing solutions).

All of this really comes down to synchronization, and how asynchronously can a game run and still pretend to be synchronous.  And that's probably something that takes experience to really know.  Which means guessing, and implementing something that can evolve from that first probably wild guess. The interesting design problem to me is how to make a modular scheduler that isn't welded to the rest of the world server event handlers, if that's even possible.

Yes, this is in fact what passes for a semi-casual mental exercise for me.  In my professional life, I've been thinking about what it would take to completely reimplement VMware Horizon from scratch.  Because that thing was written by baboons.  Who relies on ADRS?  It falls out of sync whenever you breathe hard around it.  There's no task manager at all.  The object database is always generating orphans.  Its impossible to make multi-tenant.  Pools keep losing their snapshot state.  Every time I have to reboot every single connection server because of a sync failure that causes them to kill off their server listeners I want to punch something.  Compared to that, this is all just for fun.

Solitaire

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 395
  • Badge Hunting
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17336 on: May 27, 2015, 07:52:32 AM »
I get paid a bit too much to switch jobs.  Plus, this is what passes for me for a hobby.  I've thought a lot about MMO design, and while I code like a gibbon trying to hit the right key that releases the banana snack, my design skills are better than average (maybe four standard deviations better than average, to be honest).  Its an interesting mental exercise to apply them to something real.  Honestly though if you wanted to pay someone to implement an MMO you'd actually be able to play before the Apocalypse, someone like Codewalker would probably be ten times faster than me.

The truth is players always think they know what's going on in their games and how they would make them better, and even in these threads a lot of people have commented on how easy it would be to do certain tasks.  But there's a huge difference between thinking and doing.  Until you've done it, you really don't know what you're talking about.  As recently as a week ago I didn't really think I had the time to even start an exercise like this, but this weekend I was thinking about it and decided even if for five minutes a day I'd see where my design notions go.

If I was trying to make a game for others to play, I'd start with a framework.  But I want to think about the systems from the ground up.  That's why I stopped where I did.  Seems silly to stop at a server that does nothing and a client that does almost nothing, but actually two feet out of the starting gate I've hit my first design nexus.  I'm leaning towards UDP, which means I have more control over how reliability and flow control work, but that also means I have to consider packet loss.  I could build guaranteed delivery on top of UDP, but that almost defeats the purpose of going UDP.  Drop detection and state recovery make more sense, but that then interacts with the design choice to run an input state engine for each client server-side or client-side.  Server-side state engines mean drop recovery will interact weirdly with client-side prediction, if I decide to implement prediction.  Client-side state engines make more sense for prediction and reduce server-side load, but they also mean more network traffic.

All of this would be easy enough to resolve, if it wasn't for the fact that they interact with time, and how the client and the server will track time.  Which means I need to think about time and how I want to design clocking, before I implement the networking system I want to work with that kind of clocking, which is important to how I design the protocols for client-side event messaging.  It all has to fit together.  In some ways I think CoH is much better at this than most players realize.  But in other areas, I think I could do better.  But until you actually try, its all speculation.  And because I want to think this through, I'm not referencing how other games do this as much as possible (which is to say, I know what I know, but I want to find original solutions to these problems and not copy pre-existing solutions).

All of this really comes down to synchronization, and how asynchronously can a game run and still pretend to be synchronous.  And that's probably something that takes experience to really know.  Which means guessing, and implementing something that can evolve from that first probably wild guess. The interesting design problem to me is how to make a modular scheduler that isn't welded to the rest of the world server event handlers, if that's even possible.

Yes, this is in fact what passes for a semi-casual mental exercise for me.  In my professional life, I've been thinking about what it would take to completely reimplement VMware Horizon from scratch.  Because that thing was written by baboons.  Who relies on ADRS?  It falls out of sync whenever you breathe hard around it.  There's no task manager at all.  The object database is always generating orphans.  Its impossible to make multi-tenant.  Pools keep losing their snapshot state.  Every time I have to reboot every single connection server because of a sync failure that causes them to kill off their server listeners I want to punch something.  Compared to that, this is all just for fun.

Fun? I'm not sure what language you used....

But it was an interesting read in making someone who isn't really technically to see what has to be thought about when considering designing a game, will look at things differently in the future when thinking they could change this and that in a game.

Arcana

  • Sultaness of Stats
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,672
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17337 on: May 27, 2015, 09:06:57 AM »
Fun? I'm not sure what language you used....

That was English, for some definition of English.  I should probably de-technicalize my explanations since the people who already know all of this stuff probably could care less about reading about all this stuff.  It might be more interesting for people who don't know this stuff what this stuff is.  But its a bit late here so that will have to happen tomorrow.  Unless someone feels compelled to offer an explanation of scan codes, reliable networking, client-side prediction, and semi-synchronous game clocking before my morning mocha frappe.

The Fifth Horseman

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 961
  • Outside known realities.
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17338 on: May 27, 2015, 11:41:37 AM »
I recall Icon's creation, but I don't recall Codewalker ever explicitly linking Icon to reverse engineering efforts.  It could have just been, you know, Codewalker.
He mentioned a few times it was based on prior research into reverse engineering the client, not explictly stating for what purpose.
It's rather... unlikely said prior research was aiming at turning the game into a standalone version of the costume creator.
Now, it is not said explicitly that research had been done *for* SCORE, but it's never said they are not using that information either (I'd expect that at the very least it is part of the documentation they are using).
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.

Codewalker

  • Hero of the City
  • Titan Network Admin
  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,740
  • Moar Dots!
Re: New efforts!
« Reply #17339 on: May 27, 2015, 02:06:18 PM »
I've been thinking about what it would take to completely reimplement VMware Horizon from scratch.  Because that thing was written by baboons.

I often feel that way about backup software. I've yet to find any that doesn't suck in some way or another. Even the really good ones have some Achilles' heel that you don't  know about until you discover that it chokes on condition X, and of course you have one or two servers that cannot be set up any other way and trigger that condition.

So I occasionally threaten to write my own, and have built half of one several times for specialized purposes, but never made any general enough and polished enough to sell. Hmm...