Author Topic: Archetype History Revision  (Read 6405 times)

GuyPerfect

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Archetype History Revision
« on: July 16, 2009, 08:36:44 PM »
Once upon a time, I edited the Blaster archetype page and powerset pages to remove the inline references to issue numbers and move all the historical information to its own section or paragraph to get extranneous information out of the main article. Since that time, my efforts have been reverted and I'm ready to enforce a new guideline for the archetype history information.

One thing that ticks me off to unmeasurable extent is the way powersets have (Issue X) in parenthesis after their list in the archetype article. This is nonsense. If we're going to do that, we might as well put (Customizable Weapon), (Color Tintable) and (Varies from Archetype Y) on there as well.

I want the issues that powersets were introduced to be mentioned at the bottom of the archetype articles in a history section; not in the lists of powersets themselves.

Likewise, the powerset pages have issue numbers thrown in mid-sentence when describing the archetypes those sets are available to. "The Cold Domination powerset is available as a secondary set for Corruptors; as of Issue 12, a primary set for Defenders; and, as of Issue 16, a secondary set for Controllers." It's not like that yet, but I can predict the future, and it's also nonsense. There's no reason a couple lines of text can't be added to the end of the overview that state "This powerset was made available to Defenders in Issue 12," and subsequently "This powerset was made available to Controllers in Issue 16."

Having said all that, there are a few things I'd like to see happen to the archetype pages:

History Sections
There should be history sections for anything that happened to change for archetypes and powersets. Was a new powerset introduced or proliferated? History section. Did a power undergo a significant change (like Instant Healing becoming a click power)? History section. Were powers added to the powerset (epic sets in Issue 13)? History section. Keep it all together and out of the main text of the article.

Customization Features
All powerset pages should link to the appropriate section of the Weapon Customization article, where applicable, as well as state whether or not the set can be colorized via Power Customization.

Remove Strategy Guide Info
Oh, whoop. Just checked. Seems this was already done. Strategy guides are now linked to from the archetype pages.

---

Anyhow, I'll be going about doing this unless someone gives a really good reason not to. I would also appreciate if my edits aren't reverted while I'm still undertaking the revisions. (-:

If anyone can provide additional history information like when specific ancillaries were introduced or what-not, it'd be appreciated.

eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2009, 09:27:15 PM »
I'm all for this, personally.  I really like the idea of moving all historical information on a power set to a Historical Info section of some sort.  I think it'll make the rest of the article look cleaner.  Too much parenthetical info in one spot looks garbled and disjointed.  This seems like a very simple, very clean solution that allows for the information to be retained while making the information being presented easier to follow.

I also like the idea of adding a section for Customizable Features for each set.  I think that'll come in quite handy in I16.

Quote
Remove Strategy Guide Info

That one had been bothering me for a long time.  It annoyed me every time I read "The Dominator as an Archetype is counterintuitive to play, difficult to master, and relies on mechanics and techniques that are not obvious to many styles of player."  Counter-intuitive to whom?  Difficult to master how?  "Hold him, then shred him" is a perfectly legitimate Dominator strategy and it's not all that counter-intuitive or difficult to master.  The bottom line here is that the text was opinion made part of an article that should be fact.

Anyway, it was much like a tiny fingerprint on my window that goes unnoticed for months.  Once I see it, I can't not see it and eats away at me until I've finally had enough of looking at it.  Then I get out the glass cleaner and clean every window in the house just to make sure there aren't any other fingerprints that are waiting to catch my attention.  So, I split all of them into their own little pages and marked them as Player Guides material.  I felt much better after that.  :)
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GuyPerfect

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 02:01:38 AM »
If you would, could you bust out that Spruce Hammer I gave you all that time ago and browse through all player powers to make sure everything that should go in the historical section is already there? If not, post it here!

eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 02:04:44 AM »
Yeah, I can probably work on that a bit.  I think I'll wait until tomorrow to start, though.  Got so wrapped up in finishing that list of English/German/French badge names that I haven't eaten dinner yet.  :p
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Cannonfodder

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2009, 03:20:22 AM »
If possible, could we possibly template the archetype pages?  I know there are currently only 14 ATs, but it would:

1)  Provide consistency.
2)  Allow a significant reorganization to happen without re-editting all the pages (I think that is how templates work?)
3)  Allow for expansion of ATs (new Epic ATs, etc.)
4)  Thinking about Going Rogue, Paragon Studios may decide that 'switched' ATs are known by new names (e.g. Villainous Tanker becomes known as Juggernaut, Heroic Masterminds become known as Taskmasters, etc.).  You could easily 'fill in the blanks' with an AT template to create all the new pages.

Perhaps you might even consider adding an infobox (like zones and contacts) with the primary highlights of the AT, if a template is not practical?

Thoughts?
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eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2009, 05:45:19 AM »
I'll also try to keep an eye out for anything that might be incorporated into a templated format while I'm going through the AT pages.  For an infobox with quick highlights, I could see us putting up a summary of the AT's modifiers (melee damage modifier, ranged damage modifier, buff/debuff modifiers, etc.), base HP at 50, things like that.  That wouldn't be very difficult.
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eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2009, 05:00:29 PM »
Dinked around a bit today with an infobox for ATs.

Go here.

At the moment, it's intentionally bigger than I think we'd need for the articles.  The question is, what data do we want to keep and what do we want to throw?  Is there anything we want to add (i.e. damage resistance caps)?
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eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 05:45:20 PM »
First column of power sets checked.  Findings follow:

Arachnos Soldier
Weapon Customization

Archery
Weapon Customization

Assault Rifle
Weapon Customization

Bane Spider Soldier
Weapon Customization

Bane Spider Training
Weapon Customization

Battle Axe
Weapon Customization
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Broad Sword
Weapon Customization

Claws
Weapon Customization
Historical Info in Overview

Cold Domination
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Crab Spider Soldier
none

Crab Spider Training
none

Dark Armor
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Dark Blast
none

Dark Melee
Historical Info in Overview

Dark Miasma
none

Devices
none

Dual Blades
Weapon Customization
Historical Info in Overview

Earth Control
Historical Info in Overview

Electric Armor
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Electrical Blast
Historical Info in Overview

Electrical Melee
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Electricity Assault
Historical Info in Power Tables

Electricity Manipulation
none

Empathy
none

Energy Assault
none

Energy Aura
none

Energy Blast
none

Energy Manipulation
none

Energy Melee
none

Fiery Assault
none

Back to reviewing tech docs.  Will hit the next column when I need a break.
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Sekoia

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 11:54:36 PM »
Dinked around a bit today with an infobox for ATs.

Go here.

At the moment, it's intentionally bigger than I think we'd need for the articles.  The question is, what data do we want to keep and what do we want to throw?  Is there anything we want to add (i.e. damage resistance caps)?

Some suggestions/brainstorming...

If XXX (melee) == XXX (range), maybe collapse into XXX or XXX (melee/range). This would save a lot of space. It could be accomplished through a set of three params (XXX_both, XXX_melee, XXX_range) that would require the user to specify how to handle it. Or, it could be handled via the template itself using #if and related parser functions to auto-detect equal values between XXX_melee and XXX_range and collapse accordingly. I tend to think the second option is better, since it'd work automatically.

Maybe break the modifiers up into sub-lists. For example, all the status ones (hold, immob, stun, etc.) could be lumped into "Status Modifiers (at level 50)".  It's too much information to have in a single unbroken list without feeling overwhelming (though the previous recommendation may change that some).

Maybe include the Inherent Power, with a link to its article (when such an article exists).

Maybe include info on how many sets are available for the primary, secondary, and ancillary/patron. Just a number, not a full listing.

Might also be nice to include a hero/villain icon (or include some other visual/info cue).

Could also be nice to somehow note Epic sets. Maybe add an "Unlocked by:" line? Right now, the only way to unlock anything is "Get hero to 50" or "Get villain to 50", but who knows what for the future. Alternately, could just give them a special styling or icon somehow.

Some people won't know what those modifiers all mean. Is there an article(s) that can be linked to from the infobox to explain?

Maybe add some information on caps/limits. For example, it'd be nice to realize that Brutes have a 850% damage cap compared to Tankers who cap at 400%. It would only make sense to do this for the limits that vary by archetype (damage, resistance, defense, recovery, regen). With a link to the Limits article, probably.

If length is still a concern, it might be possible to make parts of the Infobox collapsible. I'm not sure I'd recommend that, though.

(I'm not sure ALL of that stuff should be included... just brainstorming ideas. ;) )

eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2009, 12:52:57 AM »
If XXX (melee) == XXX (range), maybe collapse into XXX or XXX (melee/range). This would save a lot of space. It could be accomplished through a set of three params (XXX_both, XXX_melee, XXX_range) that would require the user to specify how to handle it. Or, it could be handled via the template itself using #if and related parser functions to auto-detect equal values between XXX_melee and XXX_range and collapse accordingly. I tend to think the second option is better, since it'd work automatically.
I like the second option better, too.  Will have to let that soak in a bit and see if I can come up with something.

I agree there's too much there for one unbroken list.  I just thought it would be good to get all of the options on the table on this first pass.  I also gave some thought to breaking most (if not all) of the modifiers out into a separate table rather than putting them in the infobox.

I don't know why I didn't think to specify the inherent powers in the box, but that definitely needs to be added.

I pondered putting the number of primary/secondary sets in there for a bit but ended up not doing so.  No real reason, just didn't get that in.  Will have to put that in to see how it looks.

I had a hero/villain icon in there for a bit and then I started to wonder, "Will we be able to start with any AT at a neutral sort of alignment or possibly even start as an evil Blaster or good Mastermind in Going Rogue?"  So I took that out.

Will have to let that the idea of how to denote an epic set ferment for a bit, too, but I like the idea.

I think maybe one or two of the attributes or modifiers might have articles, but I think as part of the big picture we'll want to have something that explains everything in the infobox when it's all said and done.  After all, we can give people all kinds of information, but if they don't know what to do with it, it's not very useful.

I was trying to think of some of the caps that I might put in there while I was working up the example, but didn't come up with many.  I'd forgotten about the article on limits.

Collapsing an area within an infobox just sounds like something that would root out no-can-dos in Mediawiki - which I'm all for most days, but not right off the bat on this one.
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eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2009, 12:54:02 AM »
OK, power set review part 2:

Fiery Aura
Historical Info in Overview

Fire Melee
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Fire Blast
none

Fire Control
none

Fire Manipulation
none

Force Field
none

Fortunata Teamwork
none

Fortunata Training
none

Gravity Control
none

Ice Armor
Historical Info in Overview

Ice Blast
Historical Info in Overview

Ice Control
none

Ice Melee
Historical Info in Overview

Icy Assault
none

Illusion Control
none

Inherent Powers
Historical Info in Defiance
Historical Info in Vigilance

Invulnerability
none

Katana
Weapon Customization

Kinetics
none

Luminous Aura
none

Luminous Blast
none

Martial Arts
none

Mental Manipulation
Historical Info in Overview

Mercenaries
Weapon Customization

Mind Control
none

Necromancy
none

Night Widow Training
none

Ninja Blade
Weapon Customization

Ninjas
Weapon Customization

Ninjitsu
none

Origin Powers
Historical Info in Overview

Pain Domination
Historical Info in Overview

Plant Control
Historical Info in Overview

Part 3 to come later.
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Aggelakis

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2009, 01:19:20 AM »
Infobox AT:
Melee and ranged stuff could go in two columns, it'd make the box wider but it'd shorten it down by a metric butt-ton.

Modifiers (at level 50)
nbsp; / melee / ranged
Damage / 55.610 / 62.562
Defense Buff / 0.070 / 0.065
Damage Buff / 0.125 / 0.125


etc etc etc


EDIT: example:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/User:Aggelakis/ATInfobox
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 01:25:56 AM by Aggelakis »
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eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2009, 01:57:44 PM »
Findings on the rest of the Primary/Secondary sets.

Poison
none

Psionic Assault
none

Psychic Blast
Historical Info in Overview

Radiation Blast
none

Radiation Emission
none

Regeneration
none

Robotics
Weapon customization

Shield Defense
Historical Info in Overview

Sonic Attack
none

Sonic Resonance
none

Spines
none

Stone Armor
none

Stone Melee
none

Storm Summoning
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Super Reflexes
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Super Strength
none

Teamwork
none

Thermal Radiation
Historical Info in Overview

Thorny Assault
none

Thugs
Weapon Customization

Training and Gadgets
none

Traps
none

Trick Arrow
Weapon Customization

Umbral Aura
none

Umbral Blast
none

War Mace
Weapon Customization
Historical Info in Overview and Power Tables

Widow Teamwork
none

Widow Training
none

Willpower
Historical Info in Overview


Also:

Temporary Powers
none


Next up:  Pool Powers
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GuyPerfect

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2009, 06:14:47 PM »
Luminous Aura and Umbral Aura have had significant changes to powers that I think merit entries in historical sections.

1) The Void Hunter Rifle, while not specifically a Kheld power, had its extra damage type changed to Negative Energy a while back (don't remember exactly when), which makes the Energy/Negative shield for Khelds more effective in resisting it.

2) White Dwarf and Black Dwarf were modified (again, can't remember when) to be usable from under status effects, which made Kheldian survivability and reliance on multiple forms quite a bit more substantial than it was before.

EDIT:
Same for Invulnerability and Regeneration. Unyielding (Stance) has been through a few changes; first being a self immobilize, then having a self defense debuff, and now just a mez-protect power. Instant Healing is a click power that used to be a toggle.

EDIT 2:
Rooted used to be a self immobilize as well, and the auto powers from Invulnerability got debuff resistances... I'm gonna need to take a look through the Issue logs to put time stamps on all of these.

EDIT 3:
Mastermind upgrade powers used to only affect one Henchman at a time.

Sorry. I'm getting ready to go to work and keep remembering things. (-:
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 06:26:32 PM by GuyPerfect »

eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2009, 07:12:26 PM »
Luminous Aura and Umbral Aura have had significant changes to powers that I think merit entries in historical sections.

Agreed.  I just didn't see any references to those changes as I scanned the articles.
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eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2009, 02:06:26 PM »
OK, back out of the dark, deep pit that is documentation proofreading and revising...

Ancillary Power Sets:

Arctic Mastery:
none

Body Mastery:
none

Cold Mastery:
none

Dark Mastery:
none

Darkness Mastery:
none

Earth Mastery:
none

Electrical Mastery:
Historical Info in Overview

Electricity Mastery:
none

Energy Mastery:
none

Fire Mastery:
none

Flame Mastery:
Historical Info in Overview

Force Mastery:
none

Ice Mastery:
none

Munitions Mastery:
will have to double-check, but I think you're able to customize the rifle for Sleep Grenade and LRM.
   
Power Mastery:
none

Primal Forces Mastery:
none

Psionic Mastery:
none

Psychic Mastery:
none

Pyre Mastery:
none

Stone Mastery:
none

Weapon Mastery:
none
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eabrace

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2009, 02:12:33 PM »
Patron Power Pools:

Leviathan Mastery:
none

Mace Mastery:
don't recall off the top of my head if this allows weapon customization or not

Mu Mastery:
none

Soul Mastery:
none


Power Pools:

Concealment:
none

Fighting:
none

Fitness:
none

Flight:
none

Leadership:
none

Leaping:
none

Medicine:
none

Presence:
none

Speed:
none

Teleportation:
none
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GuyPerfect

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2009, 04:18:06 PM »
Mace Mastery has the same weapon options as Bane Spider Soldier, and the two sets don't require re-draw when using powers between them. Players with both can only customize their mace once. Same thing for Assault Rifle and Munitions Mastery.

Most of the epic sets got additional powers in Issue 13, which would go into a historical section.

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Re: Archetype History Revision
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2009, 06:10:24 PM »
FYI, splitting discussion about AT Infoboxes into a separate thread here.
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