Author Topic: A Suggestion from Beta  (Read 3530 times)

Thirty-Seven

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A Suggestion from Beta
« on: April 07, 2012, 05:34:38 AM »
I believe it was Arbiter Hawk, but it was suggested that an article on the PWiki be created that would be for the express purpose of collecting all of the in-game text errors (grammar, spelling, and presumably lore contradictions).  The purpose of course, would be as a resource for the Devs so that it would be easier to correct such things.  I had a few issues with this... which is why I am starting a thread here:

1) What would such an article be titled?  What category would it have?

Maybe I have gotten ahead of myself?

0) Should such an article exist on the Wiki at all?
2) How would we go about keeping it current?  It would be very difficult to go back into each arc and mission and check to see if word 478 had an apostrophe added to it.
3) Is there any precedent for creating an article specifically for Dev use?
4) Wouldn't it be great if the Devs struck out the things they fixed?  Yes, it would... but Hawk confirmed that there is no way that would happen.  :)
5) Would the article follow a similar organizational system as [[In-Game References]] in that it would have to give pretty detailed information about where the text occurs.
6) Would we need a template for this that points out the error with a suggested correction?  Or would simple consistency in formatting be enough (using red, or an underline, or somesuch for errors with a note after)?

Anything else that you can think of?

GuyPerfect

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 05:56:58 AM »
This would be a monster to maintain if the devs never signal what's been fixed and what hasn't. And since the jackwads can't be bothered to make any fixes anyway, it'd be a waste of effort all around.

Unless the devs say they'd make use of such a list, I'm not going near it with a ten foot pole.

Codewalker

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 06:12:34 AM »
4) Wouldn't it be great if the Devs struck out the things they fixed?  Yes, it would... but Hawk confirmed that there is no way that would happen.  :)

Without #4 I just can't see such an article being practical. It would become a wasteland of errors that may or may not have been fixed, and almost impossible to maintain.

Also, should this thread be moved to the public forums so that devs can see the discussion of it and what issues there would be with such a suggestion? ;-)

Aggelakis

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 06:16:22 AM »
The easiest way to do it would be to create a template. Then use DPL to put a table on a category article much like {{wip}} and {{bug}}. Unfortunately, there's no way to make a table that would list errors by page that I know of, so every single error would have its own line, even if one article has 17 errors in it (meaning 17 lines). Such a page would be HUGE.

{{sic|<wrong spelling/grammar>|<correct>}}

The effect of the template would be to style="display:none:" the wrong spelling/grammar so there is no outward view of it on the article, and display the correct one as normal.

However, this means going over METRIC SHIT TONS of old content, which was simply copyedited as it was documented (when it really should have been copyedited before it was pushed live).



AAAAND with no way of them telling us when something is fixed, it would just get bigger and bigger and more unwieldy and out of date.
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Aggelakis

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 06:18:28 AM »
I moved it to open wiki discussion.

please note: this is mostly just spitballing by the admins of Titan Network and the wiki

This doesn't mean anything will come of it, nor does it mean that it's been written off.
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Aggelakis

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 06:22:19 AM »
Whether we go ahead with this or not, I will be 100% honest here:

I will not participate in copyediting for the devs. They need to pay someone to do that.

That means any content I would add would need to be doublechecked for unmarked copyediting. Which just means more work for anyone who volunteers for it.
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Thirty-Seven

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 06:23:47 AM »
Yeah, all of the concerns are things that I thought of pretty quickly... hence why I asked if any Dev would ever take a pass to update it... he responded "not likely."

Also, may I note, Agge, that that is a fantastic implementation idea!

Thirty-Seven

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2012, 06:26:55 AM »
Whether we go ahead with this or not, I will be 100% honest here:

I will not participate in copyediting for the devs. They need to pay someone to do that.

That means any content I would add would need to be doublechecked for unmarked copyediting. Which just means more work for anyone who volunteers for it.
I have occassionally /bug-ed something that was egregious, but due to the sheer number of them of late... I mostly just roll my eyes.  But, since I mentioned it to Hawk as an issue, and that was his response, I figured I should post it... just to see what happens.

Blondeshell

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2012, 08:31:21 AM »
Plus, the wiki has a policy of correcting minor text errors that we find when we create articles.  Unless someone's been keeping track of stuff separately, there's likely no way of knowing everything that's currently incorrect in-game.

eabrace

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2012, 08:27:16 PM »
My bottom line:  If we're going to maintain a page with text errors in any form whatsoever, the devs have to provide feedback to specify exactly which errors have been fixed.  Either the page is a real and functional part of bug reporting with information flowing in both directions, or it doesn't work and isn't worth the (monumental) effort to maintain.

I certainly don't have the time to log in after every patch and play through every mission or story arc with a text error to see if the errors have been fixed.
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Sekoia

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 08:34:53 PM »
My bottom line:  If we're going to maintain a page with text errors in any form whatsoever, the devs have to provide feedback to specify exactly which errors have been fixed.  Either the page is a real and functional part of bug reporting with information flowing in both directions, or it doesn't work and isn't worth the (monumental) effort to maintain.

I certainly don't have the time to log in after every patch and play through every mission or story arc with a text error to see if the errors have been fixed.

This is also how I feel about the matter.

Thirty-Seven

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 09:26:01 AM »
I have to agree with the overarching sentiment here... unfortunately.  I wish that we could be guaranteed that there would be clear communication in patch notes when text is fixed, and a definitive statement that one Dev or another would browse that Page when he has time and fix things.

taosin

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 11:56:10 AM »
At this time, I agree wholeheartedly it's a bridge too far.

Recently I updated the Pilgrim's page. NCsoft had quietly revised the content to specifically reference the coming storm. Nothing was ever advised this had occurred. It was a right royal pain to identify the small but critical changes that had been made.

I expect that trend will continue. We may well miss it too. I love that NCsoft are 'chunking' updates by revising chunks of old zones and lore with all the other good stuff, and updating sometimes very old content on the way. Pity that the content changelist isn't published by them but them's the breaks. We live in a good but not ideal world, by my reckoning; and we make the best of it.

And yes, we correct small errors as we go!

-- tao

p.s. Definitely disagree that 'they' are jackwads, by the way. :-(  *sends devs TimTams*
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Thirty-Seven

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 12:54:36 PM »
In RE: to 'chunking'

Yes, there are definitely some interesting story holes that are being introduced.  One that currently has me really confused is the status of Penelope Ying.  So... here you are a hero going about your business.  You know as a matter of course who the Phalanx are, they are talked about all the time, and in-game media would be all over their exploits.  You get to Faultline level and run her arc and she is shown as (at best) a teen and talking in a rather immature way.  Suddenly, when you get higher you run her TF and she is an adult in her own right and a member of the Phalanx.  Then, you run the WWD arc and see her introduced for the first time after that level range.  And then, to further complicate things, you go to RWZ at 50 and see her as a little girl again needing rescue from the CWK!?!  I wish they would update consistently.  Honestly, changes ought to be retcons, not updates in furthering continuity.  It is as disconcerting to see things in game that 'should be dead' as it is to not see things how you expect them to be.

Sorry, tangent-ed there a bit.

eabrace

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 01:58:37 PM »
For what it's worth, once Statesman and Psyche have been removed from IP and the changes related to that have been made, I would consider the WWD arc to be a historic review of events from the past - actually probably more appropriate for Ouroboros - so having older Penelope introduced in that arc won't bother me all that much.  But that abrupt transition from Faultline to IP will certainly be a bit jarring and the return to younger Penelope in the Lady Grey Task Force (unless they've changed the character model used on the Beta server) will just be confusing.
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Rigel Kent

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 04:00:25 PM »
I believe it was Arbiter Hawk, but it was suggested that an article on the PWiki be created that would be for the express purpose of collecting all of the in-game text errors (grammar, spelling, and presumably lore contradictions).
This kind of thing is usually handled with a template and a hidden category on wikis.

I'd use a {{sic}} template that would serve two functions. First, it gives editors a way to markup quoted misspellings and grammar errors -- which we kind of ought to be doing anyway. Second, it adds the page to an "In-Game Spelling or Grammar Errors" hiddencat -- which gives Arbiter Hawk exactly what he's looking for.

Lore contradictions is a sticky area I wouldn't want to tread into myself, but a similar template and hiddencat could be created for that.

Edit: Ooh. Looks like {{sic}} already exists. Just add an includeonly hiddencat and it's good to go.

Sekoia

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 04:39:56 PM »
This kind of thing is usually handled with a template and a hidden category on wikis.

I'd use a {{sic}} template that would serve two functions. First, it gives editors a way to markup quoted misspellings and grammar errors -- which we kind of ought to be doing anyway. Second, it adds the page to an "In-Game Spelling or Grammar Errors" hiddencat -- which gives Arbiter Hawk exactly what he's looking for.

Lore contradictions is a sticky area I wouldn't want to tread into myself, but a similar template and hiddencat could be created for that.

Edit: Ooh. Looks like {{sic}} already exists. Just add an includeonly hiddencat and it's good to go.

The {{sic}} template came out of this conversation back in 2010:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,3073.0.html
Might be worth reviewing that thread, some of its points seem relevant here.


Past consensuses have always been that we correct textual errors found in game. I have always disagreed with that consensus (though I've never really fought it) because then we're not actually reflecting what's in game. We're changing it. If we're going to fix it, we should use some variant of {{sic}} that notes the wrong version and the right.

However, there's a bigger issue that makes me hesitant to use {{sic}} and that has held me up from really complaining about the above point, and that is: generally speaking, the wiki makes no clear distinction between text taken from the game, text taken from other official sources (ie the website), and text created by our editing team. In many articles, it's not clear which parts are taken from the game and which parts are our editors writing stuff. So it seems pretty silly to me to use {{sic}} when we're not even making it clear that we're quoting something in the first place.

GuyPerfect

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 06:30:45 PM »
Hey, thanks for reminding me to take another pass through the Bugs category. (-:

Aggelakis

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 08:54:35 PM »
Is it possible to create an incrementable link via templating? Like <ref> that adds another anchor for each use on a page?

I updated the {{sic}} to use three parameters (correct usage, incorrect usage, and an optional reason) and was wondering if we could somehow include a link to that usage on a page similar to <ref> does.

Alternately, we could add {{anchor|{{{2}}}}} and have the category link to that...but if the same misusage is used multiple times on a page (such as the "Ruularu" repeated misspelling in the patch notes when I18 went live) that becomes useless.


(PS, I typed the aforementioned misspelling correctly three times before I finally typed it incorrectly. lol)
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Sekoia

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Re: A Suggestion from Beta
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 12:56:23 AM »
Is it possible to create an incrementable link via templating? Like <ref> that adds another anchor for each use on a page?

I can't think of any way to do that using just templating. It would probably require an extension, like <ref> uses.