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Community => Other Games => Topic started by: Xev on June 02, 2018, 05:46:30 PM

Title: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 02, 2018, 05:46:30 PM
OK, so, it's been more than a few years.. I need to hit Anandtech and whoever else knows something about building PC's, it's getting to be that time again.. Anything special I need to know about anything that's changed in the last, ohhh 10 years or so?

The only thing I can think of that I'd want to migrate is my Pcie video (https://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/b463/gigabyte-gtx-660-windforce-2x-oc) (it's fairly fast and isn't being dropped from support anytime soon) and display. Everything else is too out of date.

I plan to get a cheap USB hard drive, migrate my old stuff (no programs) to it, build the new macheen, then dump all my old junk back on it, re-install whatever, and go about my merry way for the next X amount of years. Hopefully far fewer than this time.

Any bus changes I need to know about...? Any processors that are just that good or bad, to mention? What's good memory to buy, now, speed/cost-wise?

What's the best bang for your buck parts out there, right now?

I'll be getting a Megabyte motherboard. Of what flavor I have no idea. I just like Megabyte due to they make solid non-flexing boards with solid components.

I'll be getting AMD, for a processor. I haven't bought IBM since... the early 386 days, and, I got a steal on a pre-built, once, like 15 or so years ago. IBM really holds no appeal whatsoever, to me, ever since the AMD 386-40(MHz). Personal thing.

Windows 10.. Just because, why get anything older. Or.. does 10 suck? Haven't tried it and I don't need any of the new features (based on the fact that I'm perfectly happy atm with ancient version 7). But. Buying anything but the latest operating system (unless it's super new and everyone is having probs) would be going against nature. Mine, anyway.

Memory... I don't care. Whoever is making reliable, cheap, memory. Dunno how fast it should be or what I need to know about what kind of slot it needs.

I have a place to shop local, for a case, but if someone really wants to share their great experience with a case maker online....

Power supply? 500 watts still get me by? I need to know anything special, here?

OH! duh. The thing I definitely know I want and definitely know I don't know how to shop for... SSD drives.. They have fiiiiinally come down in price which is one of the reasons I'm finally upgrading my PC.

What else... Did I forget anything?





Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Exxar on June 02, 2018, 11:25:29 PM
Personally I can heartily recommend Win 10, haven't had any problems with them and have been using them since they've been released, first at work and later also at home.

The best bang for my buck when I built my current PC last year, was an M2 SSD. "Standard" SSDs are SATA, M2 is a new thingy whereby you plug the disk directly into the motherboard which is hence noticeably faster than SATA SSDs. You of course also have a mobo which supports it. Having my loading times cut to a fraction of what they were before has completely transformed my gaming experience, even if I did go from an average of 20 FPS to 60 FPS on max settings with the same PC. With windows 10, you'll also have ~10 seconds boot-up time.

A 500W PSU is still fine. Don't go with less than 16 gigs RAM. Since you're going AMD, Radeon is probably the way to go, but I already don't remember which nVidia card I bought for myself anyway.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 03, 2018, 12:16:15 AM
^^ This is exactly the info I'm looking for! Thanks.

Since you're going AMD, Radeon is probably the way to go, but I already don't remember which nVidia card I bought for myself anyway.


I thought Radeon and AMD was the logical choice, too, a time or two, so, I strayed from my Nvideas to try... Nuuupe. Back to my GeForce. They just seem more solid in both hardware and drivers/driver updates/actual gaming performance.., whenever I try them. ATI is a venerable name when it comes to video cards (ATI Rage!), but... *shrug*, Nvidea has won me over and even though AMD and ATI are related, now, it hasn't changed anything for me.


Personally I can heartily recommend Win 10, haven't had any problems with them and have been using them since they've been released, first at work and later also at home.

This is what I wanted to hear.




The best bang for my buck when I built my current PC last year, was an M2 SSD. "Standard" SSDs are SATA, M2 is a new thingy whereby you plug the disk directly into the motherboard which is hence noticeably faster than SATA SSDs.

This is the kind of info I'm looking for, too. Since I *will* be motherboard shopping.. If there is a bell/whistle/SSD Bus..., worth noting, that's good info. Thanks much.



Having my loading times cut to a fraction of what they were before has completely transformed my gaming experience, even if I did go from an average of 20 FPS to 60 FPS on max settings with the same PC. With windows 10, you'll also have ~10 seconds boot-up time.


See now, this got a big smile due to... my shiz is old. And. I just recently saw a Youtube video where someone installed Windows in this phenomenally short amount of time onto SSD.. I was, just... drooling. You know? Kinda like with the above info. I used to install PC's all the time for people like me that hadn't upgraded in forever.  I won't mind enjoying that feeling of moving light years ahead in technology.

SOoooo. Nothing exciting with Memory.. Just have 16 gigs of it.. *check*

Have a 500 watt PSU and it's fairly new but I don't know if they've changed motherboard interfaces in the last 12ish years for PSU's that I should look out for. It's probably a weird thing to worry about, but, they do change the interface sometimes.

Now, a processor..... Well, and, can I use my Pcie Geforce 660 in a modern motherboard or is there a newer interface I should watch for..

Thanks Exxar! I feel slightly more up to date (than nearly not at all) already  : )


Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on June 03, 2018, 12:33:14 AM
M.2 comes in both SATA and PCI-Ex varieties, the SATA M.2 is less common for desktops than PCI-Ex.

What's the difference? 

M.2 SATA drives use the SATA portion of UEFI/BIOS.  It's under the same rules of SATA: there's 150MBps, 300MBps, and 600MBps transfer rates (SATA I,II, and III respectively).

M.2 PCI-Ex drives use the PCI-Express portion of your system.  Why this is desired over SATA?  PCI-Express allows max throughput of up to 2.0GBps.  Also, M.2 PCI-Ex drives with NVMe (Non-Volatile Memory Express) has optimizations to make sure an M.2 can consistently reach that 2.0GBps promise, and 3D NAND (chips with Multi Level Cells vs. Single Level Cells) allow more storage on the same volume as a tradeoff: you can use a SLC M.2 for less space but longer life, or a MLC M.2 to get higher capacities with a fair amount of life.

When it comes to performance, M.2 PCI-Ex is where it's at.  M.2 SATA is still handy for laptops, as these chips are far lighter and just as much storage capacity than a 2.5" Laptop Hard Drive.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 03, 2018, 01:50:29 AM
So Pcie is still popular.. Surely there's a new flavor to look for by now.

Wait... I can't remember being able to put my drives on Pcie, before..., just video. Well, yes... I can see how plugging a drive into modern Pcie might speed things along over SATA...lol.

Well, yes, I'll definitely be going Pcie unless there is a significant enough price difference between it and the SATA version..

What about the drives, themselves? Memory comes in many different speeds... Memory Drives, too? Anything special to look for, besides bus? Maybe the manufacturer? A speed rating? A sweet spot in size? Cup holders?  : )

TQ.. You must either be a technology consultant (and/)or good at Google  : ) Either way, the details are appreciated.

------

Oh hey! A thought.. Pcie is still around and popular.... is the latest version of it compatible with my not too terribly old video card? I mean.. I know it's a shame to build a hotrod and not put in a new video card, but.. It's still plenty fast enough for me. I play on max settings *shrug* only thing is -  I set the fps to 'down' to 60 to keep the fans from flying off the video card.. Likely it will just run even faster in a modern PC..
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on June 03, 2018, 03:03:02 AM
Wait... I can't remember being able to put my drives on Pcie, before..., just video. Well, yes... I can see how plugging a drive into modern Pcie might speed things along over SATA...lol.

In my daylight hours, I work in technology.

M.2 is a slot on the motherboard.  Except for 'keying', a M.2 SATA slot and a M.2 PCI-Ex slot are exactly the same.  The place you'd find out which one is on the motherboard is the mobo manual, or the tech specs before you buy it.  You have to buy the one your motherboard will support, unfortunately, so if you want PCI-Ex and the motherboard you're looking at to buy says SATA, look at a different motherboard.

Of course, you can add a PCI-Ex expansion card to host a M.2 drive on the card itself.  But with motherboards being made with it from the start, that's one less thing to shop for.

The same goes for memory as well.  It's easier to find a motherboard that has all the slots and ports you need and go from there: the motherboard you want will tell you what processor socket to select a processor from (LGA-1151, LGA-2066, AM4+ etc.), what RAM to get (DDR4 2300, DDR4 3000, etc.) and what devices you can get and maximum count (M.2, USB ports, PCI-Ex slots - the more X16s, the more video cards you hopefully can add, SATA ports, etc.)

Start with the motherboard and processor.  The rest will be clear from there.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 03, 2018, 03:50:26 PM
Yup, this is what I'm trying to do (your methodology) and this is the kind of info I'm looking for, thanks.

I'm totally out of date, guys... Not only have I not built a PC in over a decade, I completely changed professions. I landscape, now..lol (After many years of being a tech type person - I mostly did it for health reasons (too much sitting!) and due to most people around here don't have PC's, they have cell phones).. I've been at least as buried trying to figure out how to build an outdoors PC as I ever was trying to build one out of metal.

So, cool. Thanks for the help  : )

I think 1 thing I misunderstood right off the bat is there is apparently a difference between pcie (what I know) and pcieX. At first, I thought we were just spelling it different.. Also, I thought M.2 was just what the SSD drive manufacturers were calling their interface to Pcie(x...) I did not realize it was new tech.

What you are saying about figuring out what slots you need.... is exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to figure out what the new tech is (where we are going) and what's hot and what plugs into what, these days. What's the video card bus of choice.. The hard drive bus of choice.. The memory bus of choice.. did any connectors change - like for power supplies or my Pcie(no X, that I recall...) Geforce..

Like you say... I need to figure out if the motherboard I'm getting has all the slots I need. Which means I need to figure out what slots are out there, today, and what to plug into them. And then pick what I think is where the tech is headed/what is fastest for the buck/what's most supported. That kinda thing.

Your guys' info is very helpful. Thanks. I'm so far behind.. But, you know what? This is nothing compared to when stuff changed all the time..  huh? When every few months there were new slots/connectors/interfaces - new tech - and your custom built gaming PC was top of the line for maybe a month or two and then it was nearly completely obsolete. I'm not feeling overwhelmed, just need to catch up.

Let me digest this latest info over some Sunday laundry.... : ) thanks, again.


~~~~~~~~


M.2 is a slot on the motherboard.  Except for 'keying', a M.2 SATA slot and a M.2 PCI-Ex slot are exactly the same.


So.. M.2. is the new hard drive Storage bus of choice when it comes to performance. Specifically, M.2 Pcie..x



the motherboard you want will tell you what processor socket to select a processor from (LGA-1151, LGA-2066, AM4+ etc.)

Any recommendations on processor? Anything especially bangy for the buck or to avoid? (AMD)

what RAM to get (DDR4 2300, DDR4 3000, etc.)

Pretty much the same question as above except substitute 'memory' for 'processor'  : )

Once I research and digest the above info and come up with specific hardware (what video card bus to have - and is that compatible with what I have, and which exact SSD and memory to get), the motherboard choice should be fairly clear. I'll go with Gigabyte just due to my history with them and pick the one that has the slots I need.

No more Seagate!... *sigh* now I have to come up with a new favorite "hard drive" manufacturer. My first PC with no moving parts except fans..
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on June 03, 2018, 06:21:47 PM
Well, if you're asking directly...

Yup, this is what I'm trying to do (your methodology) and this is the kind of info I'm looking for, thanks.

Quote
I think 1 thing I misunderstood right off the bat is there is apparently a difference between pcie (what I know) and pcieX. At first, I thought we were just spelling it different.. Also, I thought M.2 was just what the SSD drive manufacturers were calling their interface to Pcie(x...) I did not realize it was new tech.

Both initialisms.  They both stand for PCI-Express.  PCI-E and PCI-Ex are the same thing.  Sometimes I get lazy and cut off the X.

Quote
So.. M.2. is the new hard drive Storage bus of choice when it comes to performance. Specifically, M.2 Pcie..x

M.2 is the new name of NGFF (Next Generation Form Factor), or Intel's way of making a slot that resembles Mini-PCI-Ex on a laptop into a hard drive connector as well as an accessory connector.  More info... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2)

The numbers of a M.2 module refer to sizing.  22mm is the default width, with 40, 60 and 80mm lengths.  So if you're looking at a 2280 M.2, it's 22mm wide by 80mm long.  The longer modules have room for higher capacity when it comes to SSDs.  Shorter ones have less capacity.  It's physics.  (There are short M.2s with high capacity, but you pay out the nose for it.)

What I'd go with? A M.2 2280 SSD with NVMe (make sure the motherboard has a M.2 PCI-Ex slot vs. a M.2 SATA slot first).

Quote
Any recommendations on processor? Anything especially bangy for the buck or to avoid? (AMD)

Don't worry too much about Meltdown and Spectre (https://meltdownattack.com/) in the news, because damn near everything is affected and there's still no clear path for regular users to 'immunize' their systems.  You can't win for ideal security at the moment. 

Intel had the "tick/tock" cycle where every even year they'd do a die shrink and every odd year, they'd optimize their platform to take the most advantage of it.  After 14nm, it's been fundamentally broken, we've been on 14nm with Intel the last 4 generations of the Core i Series.  So anything in the last four years is good.  From the latest releases, Intel is making processors with "as many cores as you can afford" with Core i3 falling by the wayside for Core i5, i7 and now i9.  The most expensive, Core-i9 7980 is 18 cores (36 threads total) for $1999. (Building such a system is well past $4,000 altogether.)  For gaming, media creation, and heavier workloads, I'd lean towards Core i5/i7.  If you tend to run one application at a time and multitasking isn't a major deal for you (maybe one browser open while playing a game), you can get away with a Core i3.

Intel's most popular processors for gaming tend to be the Core i7-X700 (6700, 7700, 8700 depending on the generation you want), and the Core i5 6400 and 7400 chips, which are quad core.  The newest chip at the same Core i5 tier (Core i5 8400) is hex core (6 cores) with a price bump to match.  All three are in the $150-180 price range price-wise.

AMD has been at Intel's heels with budget systems that didn't quite meet up with Intel's bar, but with the die shrink slowdown, AMD is catching up.  Their hot ticket right now is Ryzen.  These processors not only get within 5-10% of Intel's performance, but also do it with more threads available (http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-8400-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-2600/3939vs3955).  The main difference between AMD's method to accomplish the performance and Intel's is more of a voltage draw and a larger surface area for the chip.  But even with that, the price difference is not too far off.  In the comparison link above, Ryzen is more expensive (both boxes have no coolers, as the 2600X would be $30 higher), but when the advanced ones are compared (Ryzen Threadripper 1950X vs. Core i7 7900) it's splitting hairs.  Ryzen comes out cheaper, but Intel accomplishes 4% better performance with less threads for a $60 difference.  (Both are over $800, which is too rich for my blood.)  AMD is getting much better in competing with Intel lately.

Definitely give the Ryzen 5 (Ryzen 5 1600 and Ryzen 5 2600X) and 7 (Ryzen 7 2700 and Ryzen 7 2700X) a look.  The X models have a cooler in the box, which is recommended as most AM4 motherboards are hard pressed for matching brackets for new coolers.  (That was my experience last summer, it might have changed since then.)  The 1500X is $189 MSRP, while the 2700X is about $400.  Intel just released a Core i3 processor this last iteration (Coffee Lake) squashing the rumor that Core i3 was being discontinued. If you want to look at AMD's offering, check out Ryzen 3.  Quad core for about $96.  Not bad in any man's english.

What I'd go with: Depends on the budget.  If you want the processor to be $200 or less, a Core i5-8400 is $20 less than Ryzen 2600/2600X.  If less than $150, I'd be all about Ryzen 3.  Core i3-8300 is $120, but the Ryzen 3-2200G is $27 less for a -11% performance hit.  Now for the first time in 5-6 years is a good time to make a budget desktop!

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Pretty much the same question as above except substitute 'memory' for 'processor'  : )

Memory will become clear when you get the processor and motherboard lined up.  Generally, faster memory will slow down for a slower motherboard, but you don't want to overspend, either.  A DDR4-2333 motherboard will take DDR4-3200, so if there's a sale and you want capacity over speed, that's fine. 

If speed is what you're after, then look carefully at the support page of a motherboard before buying it.  Some motherboards have native support for memory speeds out of the box, some require certain processors (more $$) or firmware updates to support faster speeds.  Be safe and get the native speed memory first.  If you get memory with an overclock speed and the motherboard doesn't support that maximum, you might be stuck not being able to start your new machine.  Also, timings still matter.  The timings are the four numbers you see in memory specs (16-18-18-38 as an example).  The first number, the CAS Latency, is the easiest comparison between two memory modules: think golf.  (Lowest number wins.)  CAS Latency is also the dividing line between cheap memory and better memory.  Cheap memory modules ("Value" or "Budget" named ones) have slower timings, where the gaming and enterprise memory are quicker at a higher price.

What I'd go with: 8GB is the new normal.  16GB or 32GB is better if you can afford it, but I would not build a system with less than 8GB anymore.  Don't worry too much about memory at the onset, this is something you can upgrade later.

Quote
Once I research and digest the above info and come up with specific hardware (what video card bus to have - and is that compatible with what I have, and which exact SSD and memory to get), the motherboard choice should be fairly clear. I'll go with Gigabyte just due to my history with them and pick the one that has the slots I need.

No more Seagate!... *sigh* now I have to come up with a new favorite "hard drive" manufacturer. My first PC with no moving parts except fans..

Like mentioning Anti-Virus providers in public discord, saying what brand you use in parts will always be divisive.  There's just as many vocal haters of Seagate as there are Western Digital.  If the hard drive doesn't fail in AT LEAST 5 years, you got your money's worth out of it, no matter what anyone says.  Longer is better, of course.

What I'd go with: Pick two hard drives.  You'll need a SSD hard disk for your operating system, but those trade speed for capacity.  ($100 for an SSD gets you around 128GB or less, $100 for a platter Hard Disk is 2-4TB.)  Then get a regular Desktop Hard Disk for room to grow.  Put your operating system and one or two FAVORITE games (online ones) on the SSD to mitigate load times.  Everything else (videos, music, single player games, etc.) on the big drive, where patience is a virtue.

Good luck in your adventure! :D
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 04, 2018, 10:34:57 PM

What I'd go with: Pick two hard drives.  You'll need a SSD hard disk for your operating system, but those trade speed for capacity.  ($100 for an SSD gets you around 128GB or less, $100 for a platter Hard Disk is 2-4TB.)  Then get a regular Desktop Hard Disk for room to grow.  Put your operating system and one or two FAVORITE games (online ones) on the SSD to mitigate load times.  Everything else (videos, music, single player games, etc.) on the big drive, where patience is a virtue.

Good luck in your adventure! :D

This, would be my thinking, since..... SSD became available, basically.. Yes. Yes. Yes.

I plan to upgrade on Cyber Monday. Which is, way far away, I know... but... taking into account that I watch them go by every year and this year I am hoping I don't have to... it's not so bad. And, not being in a hurry is nice. No rush decisions.

I said 'hotrod' when referring to building, up there, somewhere, but, that is a relative term... I mean.. Honestly.. If you get top of the line when top of the line is top of the line, how top of the line is it, really? I mean... say... a few years down the road. I try to go for that sweet spot where performance is good enough that everyone gives things a good rating - but I don't spend more than, like, $300... on anything.

If you enjoy Consulting, TQ, for the record, I enjoyed your consultation. That's all there is to it. Find out what someone is looking for and them gorge them with Relevant facts on the subject until they can make an informed decision. Sell them a ton of PC's once they picked out their flavor, show them how to migrate. Brag to your friends about the price tag  : )

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 06, 2018, 02:20:14 PM
As I awoke to a T.V. with a randomly appearing NO SIGNAL (lil hiccup with automatically powering on, this morning..) I was reminded of something I can enjoy again when my PC isn't falling apart.

Waking up Lost in Space!

I replaced my TV with a PC ~ the time dvd's came out. So using it like a TV is nothing new. One day I realized... hey.. why use an alarm clock when I can just have my PC boot up and queue up the next episode of (whatever) Lost in Space...?

It's just so much better than *wonnnnnk wonnnnnnk wonnnnnk*

Ever since my virus scanner's parent company changed hands my PC has been a grindfest when it boots, and, I've already lost 2 drives due to heat (note to self: do not stack so many drives so close to each other when indoor temps get well above hot) and due to they've been through a few moves and are old. Having the PC boot and then play a video was grinding the only hard drive platters I had left away, so, I had to stop.

Looking forward to that lil thing in life returning. : )

*pushes up glasses in middle where Band-Aid has repaired the broken part*

Doesn't everyone use their PC as an alarm clock?

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 12, 2018, 05:17:25 PM

What I'd go with: 8GB is the new normal.  16GB or 32GB is better if you can afford it, but I would not build a system with less than 8GB anymore.

Can you translate for me, some...?

DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Intel Z170 Platform / Intel X99 Platform Desktop Memory

Which specification(s) are actually important? Should I go motherboard/processor shopping before I ask this question?

Is DDR4 standard nowadays or is it one step up or down? Is 3200 something to brag about? How about PC4 25600...? I never heard of this. I never heard of the remainder, there, either.

I get promo stuff from Newegg (good gear, good prices, good reviews, been around awhile) regularly and today there were some deals on memory. SOooooo.... I thought I'd start window shopping.



What I'd go with: 8GB is the new normal.  16GB or 32GB is better if you can afford it, but I would not build a system with less than 8GB anymore.

I'm thinking to save some money up front, here, by just getting (1) 8 gig stick and adding another one, later. I don't like mixing memory is one problem with this and another is that I don't know if that's possible to just have 1 stick of memory installed, or, if I need to install in pairs or if there's anything else I'm not thinking of atm...  : ) How many memory slots are typical nowadays, anyway? At least 2?

If I can get a real steal on 16 gig (in the next 5 months...) then that seems like the way to go. Then again.. I only have 4 gig, now, and do pretty well (in an old OS..). Maybe I never even need 16.. until it's even cheaper. As long as my games don't get memory hungry, I'm good. They seem to be doing fine, now, but I don't run anything extra in the background.

Cheap storage seems like a simple solution. I already got an ad for a plenty large drive that is backwards compatible to USB 2 so I can copy all my old junk, and for $60. I don't really care how great the USB Drive is (this one happened to be a Seagate..) due to it won't see very much use and will be more of a backup drive than anything. I'll be a lot more picky when browsing SSD's.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Floride on June 14, 2018, 03:57:07 PM
My gaming rig is top of the line for 2008 (remember Abit motherboards?) and I built it myself so reading this thread has been very enlightning and I'm sure many others are getting schooled too. Thanks to everyone who is contributing!
The only thing I've changed in my rig is I bought an AOI (all-in-one) CPU Water Cooler by Cooler Master last year. Some games like XCOM and especially XCOM2 are CPU intensive games and XCOM2 was bogging my framerate and actually overheating my CPU to the point of crashing the game, but with the water cooler I never even drop framerate anymore.
I mention this ONLY because as your new rig becomes "old" having a water cooler will allow you to not notice how old it's getting as games get progressively more CPU intensive.
Water coolers are a highly debateable subject with lots of people saying they don't help, and maybe they won't on new rigs, but on old rigs running newer games they definitely make a huge difference.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 15, 2018, 06:44:57 PM
My gaming rig is top of the line for 2008 (remember Abit motherboards?) and I built it myself so reading this thread has been very enlightning and I'm sure many others are getting schooled too. Thanks to everyone who is contributing!
The only thing I've changed in my rig is I bought an AOI (all-in-one) CPU Water Cooler by Cooler Master last year. Some games like XCOM and especially XCOM2 are CPU intensive games and XCOM2 was bogging my framerate and actually overheating my CPU to the point of crashing the game, but with the water cooler I never even drop framerate anymore.
I mention this ONLY because as your new rig becomes "old" having a water cooler will allow you to not notice how old it's getting as games get progressively more CPU intensive.
Water coolers are a highly debateable subject with lots of people saying they don't help, and maybe they won't on new rigs, but on old rigs running newer games they definitely make a huge difference.

Cooling is extremely important in gaming. As soon as things start heating up, performance goes down. Video is what overheats faster than anything on my PC.  Not so much now that my place doesn't get so hot in summer, but, still, the thing with video in my experience has been that I can push it about as hard as I want until it overheats and then I gotta start backing things down. In Winter, with not so new games like CO and STO, I didn't really have to do any backing down but if the air goes out in summer things get backed down until they are turned off (the final backing down level)..

Hard drive heat was killing me in recent years. As was the summer heat.. I should have known better than to stack 4 drives right next to each other and let them spin in a room as hot as this one used to get. lost 2 drives that way. The 2 in the middle..

So yeah, cooling is important.

Usually I don't have CPU cooling problems, though. Isn't that what you're water cooling? "CPU Water Cooler". I mean, if the thing gets hot enough (I think it didn't, once, this Winter) the fan will spin faster, but it doesn't burn up like my video or that pile of hard drives did. I run my pc on a desk with an open case that has a small fan blowing across the front to *pull out* the hot air and I air dust frequently..  Sooo, that probly makes a difference. With worse airflow and a dusty heatsink my CPU would have a harder time staying cool and I'd probably hear the fan working harder.

Water cooling is pretty old school and current school, just like air cooling.

I never tried it though..

PC's and Water??? nuuuuu

After all this time it still sounds too far out to cool a PC with water. That's interesting to hear your experience. Air cooling is simple but it still breaks. I'm waiting for a CPU fan to go out, right now.

So what's the deal with water cooling, anyway? Is it expensive? Is it just for CPU's? Where does the water go? Is it tricky at all? Bulky? Doesn't the water get hot eventually (apparently not..)? Do I need antifreeze? hehe (well, water does get old and moldy ya know..)

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Floride on June 16, 2018, 10:39:08 AM
So what's the deal with water cooling, anyway? Is it expensive? Is it just for CPU's? Where does the water go? Is it tricky at all? Bulky? Doesn't the water get hot eventually (apparently not..)? Do I need antifreeze? hehe (well, water does get old and moldy ya know..)
I should've mentioned that the appeal of Abit motherboards was that they were overclocked from the manufacturer, which automatically makes my CPU run hotter than normal.
AOI (All-in-one) Water Coolers are sealed systems (AKA user friendly water coolers) but other more expensive ones require filling, and sealing, and drilling, and custom mounting, and hair pulling and headaches.
Mine was $60 on newegg. I'm not trying to promote anything, but if you're curious to see what it looks like here's the link (https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103233).
Mount the heatsink, plug the heatsink's wires into CPUFAN on the mobo (it's a dummy plug. Mobo's go bonkers if nothing is plugged into CPUFAN).
Then mount the radiator assembly to the inside rear of the case and plug the fan wires into SYSFAN on the mobo and set the SYSFAN to the highest speed in your BIOS.
The water automatically circulates as fast as possible the whole time, so you don't have to worry about setting some arbitrary flow speed and crossing your fingers.
I will say I got reeeeally lucky that I actually had room in my case for the radiator assembly and it cleared the mobo and the graphics card. Definitely measure and make sure the AOI you want will physically fit BEFORE buying one. Their bulkiness is their achilles heel.
They do make them for GPUs too but you shouldn't need one unless your making a bitcoin mining farm.

The only caveat here is that, for $60, I probably could've gotten a kickass conventional heatsink/fan setup that may or may not have been just as good. So like I said, it's a highly debateable issue.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 16, 2018, 01:09:16 PM

They do make them for GPUs too but you shouldn't need one unless your making a bitcoin mining farm.

Ohh reaaally.. That's interesting (too)..

You and I must have completely different computing experiences in some ways. I can push my video card (and the ones before it..) to the point where its fans start screaming wayyyy before I can push my CPU so far as to do so.

A CPU Cooler was an interesting idea< to keep the overall case cooler, but a video water cooler... now, we're getting interesting.


The only caveat here is that, for $60, I probably could've gotten a kickass conventional heatsink/fan setup that may or may not have been just as good. So like I said, it's a highly debateable issue.

I wouldn't spend 60 bucks on a fan/heatsink hehe. Not unless pricing has reeeeally changed.

I have heard/read... for decades, that Water Cooling beats air cooling hands-down. It just always sounded too far out and complicated and messy for some reason.

I will say I got reeeeally lucky that I actually had room in my case for the radiator assembly and it cleared the mobo and the graphics card. Definitely measure and make sure the AOI you want will physically fit BEFORE buying one. Their bulkiness is their achilles heel.

Yeah.,.. never enough space.. Very important consideration. I have to check out your link later. Would have done it already but I'm already skipping chores this morning so I gotta get back to it.

Good info  : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 21, 2018, 08:45:41 PM
Cooling seems to be a... consideration, at least, with SSD drives.

What a simple technology, huh? Nice short names.. SAMSUNG 970 PRO M.2 2280 512GB PCIe Gen3. X4, NVMe 1.3 64L V-NAND 2-bit MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) MZ-V7P512BW.

I'm looking at the ad and I was like, wha...?

Hard drives are the new video card, huh? Used to be, and for the longest time, that video was the place things were happening. You still want a good video card as a #1 priority, but less so, now that Storage finally is catching up and finally giving us something new to be 'excited' about.

That SSD, above? It looks like a half stick of memory in the pic. SSD's fail, just like hard drives, it seems. They only are warrantied to write to themselves so many times and for so long. They also appear to generate heat. I had a feeling this would be the case. I haven't done the comparison, but, I am guessing that SSD's use a lot less power than HD's, relatively speaking.

It's an interesting tech. TQ suggested and I totally agreed that a good strategy is to get a big, fat, cheap but good, traditional hard drive (they're everywhere) and a small, fast SSD (whatever's the biggest and cutting edgest for the buck at purchase time)... After doing just a tiny amount of shopping, I'm seeing some fairly cheap older tech (all SATA, I suppose, didn't look that close) SSD drives.. This might add something into the mix.

This is definitely an evolving tech and the biggest change to PC's since 3d video cards. Not that there is a lot of competition (multi cores.. bigger data busses..), but still.. It's been awhile since something has fundamentally changed with PC's.

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on July 26, 2018, 05:40:53 PM
Even though Cyber Monday is still months away I'm actually feeling a little rushed due to the only thing I've spent any time researching is ... Windows?? of all things. I'm also seeing that I should start getting stuff, now. I've been getting some good looking sales in e-mall and not *everything* I want is going to be on sale on one day. Most likely.

I do think I'm going to try and get 16 gig on sale and not cheap out with 8 with the option to upgrade, later. That's about as far past Windows shopping as I've gotten. I'm also shooting for the fastest SSD I can afford for games and I'm not real concerned about size, due to I don't plan to put much on it.

I'm tempted to throw Windows and Windows programs on their own SSD... And then toss games on their own SSD. The Windows SSD can be tiny (cheap) and can run independently from my games SSD. (That's how I always did my hard drives, or, I would at least partition off Windows.) And then get the best bang for the buck hard drive for all else. The focus, being, on getting the currently best Game drive that I can justify the cost for - while shoving other things onto their own drives so that the games drive only has to 'spin' for games. I'm nonstop getting offers for small $30 SSD drives - maybe one of those can be my Windows drive - even if they aren't top of the line I'm hoping they'll boot Windows in a similar timeframe as the more expensive ones - which is mainly what that drive will be judged by - how long it takes to boot Windows.

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on August 21, 2018, 05:35:06 PM
Wth is up with Video.....?

Did I miss something?

Is real time ray tracing as cool as it sounds?

That's about where the cool ends..

Man! I thought when I kept getting ads for $650 video cards that those were the top of the line just based on the price. You know, the cards that are generally double the price of the price most gamers pay for their very respectable video.

Then, I get an e-mail for new G-Force cards that ... *start* at $1k

$1,200 non-specialty video cards??

I haven't seen anything like that since the AutoCAD worship days.

I thought the trend on Video cards since some years now was less room for innovation and more downward pricing..?
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on August 22, 2018, 11:28:56 PM
GeForce's RTX line (2080, etc.) are the announced ones that will be super-pricey for a raytracing-hybrid approach to games who implement it.  For those not on the bleeding edge, GTX cards will still be produced I'd wager, but the numbering has me curious... whether they're pushing these as a 'breakthrough' and keep releasing GTX 11XX cards for now, until the GTX either falls out of favor (I don't see 9-10 years of two separate lines) or RTX cards become cheap enough for them to stop being a difference between value and performance graphics (think how Apple rolled out Retina High DPI displays on their hardware... the once premium took a few years before it became Apple's standard.)

In any case, I avoid graphic cards expensive enough to take the place of a used car.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on August 23, 2018, 04:33:14 PM
I've not seen video cards priced that far out since the specialty card days.

I mean... 1.2k for a video card goes way beyond paying a little extra to be on the bleeding edge...! The far out price that no normal person would pay should be ~ $650 these days I'd think..

Vive la revolution. Sounds like we're paying for tech that most games likely won't benefit from presently. I just hope it's as big a jump in tech as it is in price, and, that price comes way down soon enough.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on October 28, 2018, 02:25:25 PM
Soooo... I finally got around to looking at some processors..

I can get a fairly huge boost for 80 bucks.

Or, I can get 'modern' for ~ double of that.

By modern, I mean, DDR4 support. And with DDR4 support most likely comes other new tech.

The sweet spot seems to be 8 cores.. Double what I have, now. The GHz has gone up, some, from my chip, but, not nearly as much.

One thing that struck me was that I was comparing 2 AMD AM4 chips... and.. the main different between them seemed to be $10-$20, and.. ~ 30 watts!

The AMD Ryzen 1700 operates at 65 watts, while the slightly faster 1700x operates at 95. That seems like a large difference, to me. I always thought the lower the (heat) power use, the better? But the 1700x is more expensive and doesn't seem that much faster for all that power consumption.

Any thoughts? Anyone like these Ryzens? After a good solid 3 minutes or so of shopping, they look pretty decent. If I want to go DDR3 I can save 'a ton' - due to the DDR3 supporting processors seem to be ~ half the price of the DDR4's.

Thing is, in 5 years (much less) I won't remember the 80 bucks - but... in 5 years will the difference between DDR4 and DDR3 be worth it? If ya know what I mean. I mean, if it's not that large of a boost, then why bother - however... it's in my innate tech nature to go for the largest memory data path and speed that is fiscally possible.

So, I put it to you guys out there actually using this stuff.. What's j0r opinions? On processors and memory..

I might actually end up doing this. Still targeting Cyber Monday. Looking good, so far. I figure whatever doesn't go on sale, Cyber Monday, will go on sale before year-end.. Now be the time to start shopping if you're a cheapskate like me. I skate quite cheaply  : )

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Marine X on October 29, 2018, 03:07:39 PM
I looked at building from scratch but could not find a way to out " Bang for the Buck " these deals. I did add RAM right out of the gate, but it kept me from overspending. House will be paid off in 3 Years, I can get crazy then.

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/inspiron-5676-gaming-desktop?mkwid=sVfE1eUGZ&pcrid=276785112697&pkw=dell%205675&pmt=e&pdv=c&slid=&product=&pgrid=61866182812&pgrid=61866182812&ptaid=aud-473968998433:kwd-323406662540&ptaid=aud-473968998433:kwd-323406662540&VEN1=sVfE1eUGZ,276785112697,901pdb6671,c,,,61866182812,aud-473968998433:kwd-323406662540&VEN1=sVfE1eUGZ,276785112697,901pdb6671,c,,,61866182812,aud-473968998433:kwd-323406662540&VEN2=e,dell%205675&VEN2=e,dell%2B5675&dgc=st&dgc=st&dgseg=dhs&dgseg=dhs&acd=1230923830920560&acd=1230923830920560&cid=312465036&st=dell%2B5675&gclid=CjwKCAjw39reBRBJEiwAO1m0OfEZzSWSBu1TCQwlBVefKlG2J9mheu8vBuhRYQF2pC1XEWdJefpe3BoCuaUQAvD_BwE&lid=59673390608&VEN3=813704370524316328
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on October 30, 2018, 05:13:26 AM
Thing is, in 5 years (much less) I won't remember the 80 bucks - but... in 5 years will the difference between DDR4 and DDR3 be worth it? If ya know what I mean. I mean, if it's not that large of a boost, then why bother - however... it's in my innate tech nature to go for the largest memory data path and speed that is fiscally possible.

To explain it like I do at work:

              ^
         Speed
       /               \
Capacity --  Price

It's the efficiency triangle.  You can pick one ignoring the other two and it'll do great (awesome speed OR capacity OR price).  Or find a choice that's good at two, shunning the third. (You can be fast and cheap, but with 2GB capacity.  OR have 16GB for less than $120 if you don't mind "Value" RAM being sluggish when you are demanding.  OR you can have 32GB with the best CAS Timings on the market... but prepare to pay out the nose for it.)

Realistically, you can't have all three.  It's not impossible to find something that fits all three for you (as the above triangle is subjective to your own tastes), but if something does strike a balance between all three (not great, not good, but a balance), it's probably one in a million in a sea of products that can't compare.

After that, DDR3 and DDR4's main difference is processors and speeds supported.  I wouldn't pick between DDR3 or 4 specifically in terms of performance or RAM Capacity... I'd let my choice in processor weigh out which I get for the motherboard it'll need to work.  Of course, in a few months or years, I'll go back on this advice and say to myself "DDR4, dummy.  DDR3 is a thing of the past!" about two months after DDR5 comes out but isn't broadly available yet to mean anything to the average user.  So I'll dovetail this advice with the following: this is what I think... FOR NOW.

DDR3 enjoys broad selection right now for a simple reason: it's been out for a while.  But DDR4 is close to meeting that same availability.  Even when it does, it's mostly a draw, and will be for a few years.  In any case, I wouldn't rule out a processor or socket because DDR4 isn't available on it.

Speed isn't everything: don't forget capacity and price.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on October 30, 2018, 05:21:06 AM
Of course, in a few months or years, I'll go back on this advice and say to myself "DDR4, dummy.  DDR3 is a thing of the past!" about two months after DDR5 comes out but isn't broadly available yet to mean anything to the average user.

Ah, hell.  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/synopsys-announces-fastest-most-power-130500746.html (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/synopsys-announces-fastest-most-power-130500746.html)

My advice still stands.  I wouldn't pass on DDR3 yet if all the other marks are hit with a processor/mobo selection.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on October 30, 2018, 04:23:58 PM
First of all, thanks for any and all!

To explain it like I do at work:

              ^
         Speed
       /               \
Capacity --  Price

It's the efficiency triangle.  You can pick one ignoring the other two and it'll do great (awesome speed OR capacity OR price).  Or find a choice that's good at two, shunning the third.

hehe. The Efficiency Triangle..  ; ) I like that. I am engaging *all* efficiency triangles, on this purchase.. and appreciate your guys' help with this first one.

After that, DDR3 and DDR4's main difference is processors and speeds supported.

This is the kinda info I'm looking for. I mean, what's the big deal between 3 and 4? Relatively speaking, memory standards/specs don't go up that often. So there very well could be a big deal, or two. Like a way huger data path or lower heat/power or... I dunno! I haven't done this for awhile. I have a hard time believing that a whole new standard that requires a whole other processor doesn't provide a (faster!).. more modern computing experience with a longer lifespan of usefulness - thus keeping my not often up-to-date PC up to date for.. longer. Hopefully not 12 years, this time.

If there is no reeeeal noticeable difference with DDR4 and the processors supporting this memory offer no reeeal noticeable difference - and - this trend is likely to continue throughout their (the memory and processor) lifetime... at that point, spending half as much on memory and processor (and probably less on a motherboard, too..) becomes more tempting. Like when 386/40's where outgunning and outselling more expensive Pentiums.

My *guess* is, for a motherboard to support the processors and memory we're talking about, it is going to be fairly modern. It's going to have the current bus standards and all that happy hoo hoo. I'm good with spending a little more for this, too.

I mean, I'm paying extra for what would probably be considered current/'modern' tech, but, I'm not really paying New Cutting Edge Tech prices when we're talking about (any speed flavor of) DDR4 and the lowest end DDR4 supporting motherboard. Huh? This stuff's been around since I started shopping some months ago, anyway.

Or.. can I/is it smarter to get *high end* DDR3 for the same price - that blows away low end 'DDR4 tech'........? And will that DDR3 tech be considered acceptably modern for an acceptable amount of time. (As read in our crystal balls).

Finally, 10 paragraphs later, I figured out what I was trying to say.... ^^


Speed isn't everything: don't forget capacity and price.

No no, speed *is* everything...!

But, we often can't have everything. 

In this case I can afford 16 gig of DDR4. I bet I can get it for close enough to $100 before year's end...

In this case I can afford the processor.

Memory and processor and motherboard are the three things I skimp on a little as possible. They're the core. Everything feeds off of these things.

Video is super important too... but it's an expansion card and not so ...integrated. I plan to hit that triangle as hard as I can when the time comes and I have to hit it before the motherboard triangle, just to be safe that I'm not skipping some great new video standard.. And then it's time to hit up the Hard Drive triangle and visit a local PC shop for what is hopefully a really great case. My old one shoulda never made it this far  : D

I don't have (any) tons of disposable cash laying around.. but.. I have been saving very small amounts, for.. years. And I don't plan to build another PC for years. The PC I have now? It's 12 years old and I play my (old Cryptic) games on max settings. It takes Windows 5 minutes to fully boot! but.. Point is, I've been saving for this and I don't plan to do it again for awhile - like last time.

"If he can afford it, why's he asking us?"

Well.. because what I save here, if anything, I can spend elsewhere. Or maybe I decide I should spend that money, here, and save, for spending more, elsewhere.

I guess what surprised me is that there are still a ton of seemingly popular processors out there on DDR3. There was a time that the 386/40 was an excellent processor even when Pentiums were making the scene. Well, and, 'DDR3 tech' is about half the cost of going DDR4.

But what's that half? I would be surprised if I can't get 16 gigs of DDR4 for ~ $100 before years' end and several minutes of shopping revealed I can already get a DDR4 supporting processor $160.. I have not priced DDR4 motherboards but I would be surprised the sweet spot, there, wasn't ~ $120 or less. I have not priced DDR3 motherboards.. I wouldn't be surprised if they were half of the DDR4's, or a little more. This is all pretty acceptable and not surprising (unless I'm way wrong on the motherboards).

We're talking about equipment that may well have to last me another decade. Hope not! But it did last time. I'm getting my feet wet here. I need to start getting in ordering-stuff-mode which means I have to start getting straight in my head what tech to go for. Thanks for the help.


Even when my PCs only had to last a year or two or three at max, I always built them to last for 10. As a goal. (Damn lucky thing, this last time!) But that surely does not mean that I start at the Price part of the triangle and that I aim for super new alien technology. I aim for the superest sweet spot I can find, and afford - what I think will be the fastest, for the longest, for the cheapest.. Just like TQ is talking about. Used to do it for my customers too  : )

So what's the big deal about DDR4? Is there anything especially special about the motherboards and processors running it?

I picked DDR4 as the focus due to it is a newer standard than DDR3. DDR4 requires newer tech to run on - newer motherboards and processors. Well, and, Memory is King. One of them anyway. In the King/Queen geometric shape : )

              ^
         Motherboard
       /               \
Processor --  Memory
     

With very important but generally not as much immediate importance towards..

Video
...Storage
(which must be supported by Motherboard, above)



Case and a place to plug-in are a must!  : D I have the latter, covered  : )



Thanks for your help! Input! Vibe... Experience!  : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on November 04, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
So what's the big deal about DDR4? Is there anything especially special about the motherboards and processors running it?

Concerning the choice between DDR3 and DDR4, you'll find whatever motherboard you choose will only allow one or the other.  The RAM slots are keyed (there's a notch to prevent other types of RAM from being installed) so only the correct RAM will work. 

To get super technical, DDR3 has a data rate range of 800MHz to 2133MHz, where DDR4 goes from 1600MHz to a theoretical 3200MHz (hasn't been reached yet in the market, so we'll see.)  Capacity maximums are another comparison point, which in the real world doesn't matter.  DDR3 has a ceiling of 128GB.  DDR4, 512GB.  (You'll be hard pressed to find a motherboard with enough expansion slots to reach those totals for either system.)  The last comparison point is voltage used.  DDR3 uses 1.5 volts, DDR3L (Low Voltage) is 1.35 volts, where DDR4 is 1.2 volts.  Less energy means more stability when overclocking (which personally I never recommend for casual gaming/use.  A 3-10% performance boost isn't worth the headache of reconfiguring the system every time a hardware failure or change knocks your system out.)  Less energy also means less heat, which helps reduce the heat in your case.  That's a benefit anyone can appreciate.

So, that's the real difference.  Should you rule out a system that uses DDR3 because it can't reach clock rates over 2133MHz compared to what you're using now?  Or because DDR3 can't be upgraded past 128GB of RAM?  (Most motherboards will have a lower ceiling than that anyway.)  Or because it'll be 20% hotter than DDR4?  (Which if you're not overclocking it, a miniscule amount of heat compared to your processor or Video Card.)  If so, then DDR4 is the only consideration.

Why I wouldn't rule out a DDR3 motherboard: if you're looking to make an affordable system to game on, DDR4's biggest drawback over DDR3 is simply price.  Most DDR3 capacity packages will cost less than DDR4's equivalent capacity (except DDR4 "value" or "budget" RAM packages, which sacrifice speed and/or capacity for a lower price). 

Yes, someday, your choices in upgrading a DDR3 system will be diminished compared to DDR4 over time, but realistically, if you need to cut the cost somewhere initially RAM is safer than the processor or motherboard.  Generally, upgrading a motherboard or CPU is harder than buying larger or faster RAM later.  So that's another way to think about it.  With DDR4, you can buy "just enough" to get today's games working, then upgrade later to better RAM.  Or, if you have programs that demand capacity (you edit video or run Virtual Machines as well as game with your system) if you go with DDR3, you can more affordably max out your motherboard in the short term (if not in the onset, in a few months of paychecks.)  Just know that it will be a bottleneck in later years.

I picked DDR4 as the focus due to it is a newer standard than DDR3. DDR4 requires newer tech to run on - newer motherboards and processors. Well, and, Memory is King. One of them anyway. In the King/Queen geometric shape : )

              ^
         Motherboard
       /               \
Processor --  Memory
With very important but generally not as much immediate importance towards..

Video
...Storage
(which must be supported by Motherboard, above)

Case and a place to plug-in are a must!  : D I have the latter, covered  : )

Thanks for your help! Input! Vibe... Experience!  : )


Yup.  Except I'd turn the triangle on it's point:

Motherboard - CPU
   \                  /
       Memory
            V

Motherboard and CPU will dictate what memory you'll pick.  Especially in motherboard with a Socket than handles multiple processors (if it allows a Celeron, Core i3, Core i5, for example, the lower ones may have a rate limit preventing the memory from reaching a faster speed, so spending on faster sticks won't have a benefit.)  Upside of RAM: it's more forgiving than other parts.  If you buy a kit that is a faster clock speed than your motherboard supports, IT WILL STILL WORK.  Just at a reduced clock rate.  But as mentioned above, DDR4 can't be used in a DDR3 system and vice versa.

That being said, I wouldn't hinge an upgrade path on that; the best advice as always remains.  Buy the fastest processor you can afford. Because it should be the second to last component to consider replacing in a system for an upgrade.  Motherboard being the absolute last... and usually because something has gone horribly wrong. (IT CAUGHT FIRE! RUN!!!)
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 04, 2018, 08:06:36 PM
Concerning the choice between DDR3 and DDR4, you'll find whatever motherboard you choose will only allow one or the other.  The RAM slots are keyed (there's a notch to prevent other types of RAM from being installed) so only the correct RAM will work.

Yup, I get this.

To get super technical

Pls do!

This is what I'm looking for. Super technical. What's your super technical take on this technology.

Scanning what you wrote, I'd say DDR4 has a future and DDR3 is on it's way out.

The last comparison point is voltage used.  DDR3 uses 1.5 volts, DDR3L (Low Voltage) is 1.35 volts, where DDR4 is 1.2 volts.  Less energy means more stability when overclocking (which personally I never recommend for casual gaming/use.  A 3-10% performance boost isn't worth the headache of reconfiguring the system every time a hardware failure or change knocks your system out.)  Less energy also means less heat, which helps reduce the heat in your case.  That's a benefit anyone can appreciate.

This, is what sold me. These small benefits which you speak of are uber to me. Low Voltage and Heat are like Crit Chance... You always wanna go for them when possible.

Why I wouldn't rule out a DDR3 motherboard: if you're looking to make an affordable system to game on, DDR4's biggest drawback over DDR3 is simply price.  Most DDR3 capacity packages will cost less than DDR4's equivalent capacity (except DDR4 "value" or "budget" RAM packages, which sacrifice speed and/or capacity for a lower price). 


We're talking about 16 gig being plenty of RAM, for me, right? I'm betting I can get it for $100 before year's end... I'm cheap, but not that cheap. I mean if I'm going to build a whole new PC, 100 bucks for memory doesn't seem unreasonable at all. Or even $120.

20% less heat on the thing that gets hammered for failures which we want the fewest of and from which much goodness flows, quickly...? And that is currently sitting under my CPU.....? Yes plx.

Nah really, that is a cool thing to know when shopping around, thank you.

Yes, someday, your choices in upgrading a DDR3 system will be diminished compared to DDR4 over time, but realistically, if you need to cut the cost somewhere initially RAM is safer than the processor or motherboard. 

I want to agree with you, but, in this case, the processor and CPU are connected at the hip.. If I cut cost on memory, then I'm cutting cost on the processor by default. That's why I've been grouping them together. What is so special about them BOTH.. Due to if I 'cheap out' on one, I'm gonna cheap out on both - memory And processor.

You already convinced me that DDR4 is yummy. Not crazy yum, but, there's some yum there. Better than: 'well, one is faster, one is slower, one costs more than the other.'



Yup.  Except I'd turn the triangle on it's point:

Motherboard - CPU
   \                  /
       Memory
            V



Just for the record, my triangle has no point that is more important than the other.. Think of it more of an Ouija board.. except my slider moves where.... I can afford it to move : D And where I can justify it to move.

Motherboard and CPU will dictate what memory you'll pick.

Nope. Not to me. To me, CPU and Memory (connected at the hip) will decide what motherboard (type..) I get.

Now..

Once I pick the actual motherboard that will go in my case...

Then, I come back and pick the *exact* memory (maybe this motherboard only supports certain capacities or speeds) and processor.

When I pick the motherboard, I pick the sweetest, most durable one I can justify/afford - and then I put the sweetest, most durable processor and memory in it I can afford.

and then I put the sweetest and most durable video...and then whatever's leftover gets splurged on the best storage I can afford - due to, like you said, do the easiest to replace stuff last. And I would also say, do it cheapest. If you're going to cheap out, do it on video or storage which are usually the easiest to replace. Having said that.... Try and get you a good Windows drive up front because if you don't... every time you upgrade storage you have to you know what.

Thanks TQ! I need to do some shopping... I'm not in the zone for it lately... It's harvest time around here (I'm in AG now) and I'm in the middle of some overdue dentist stuff and and and.

So thanks bunches. I really need to get on this before year's end or I'm gonna end up losing out on all the sales, which, are pretty significant starting ~ now, for us home PC ppl.

Edit!:

When I said "When I pick the motherboard, I pick the sweetest, most durable one I can justify/afford - and then I put the sweetest, most durable processor and memory in it I can afford."

It can be... in the buying process I learn something new that makes me want a different processor or memory than my chosen motherboard can support. At that point... I choose a new motherboard and then go back to choosing a processor and memory to go in it.

Ultimately.... when I have a motherboard...processor...and memory that all play well together as well as I can make them, then I hit 'Buy'.

But yeah, again, I'm trying to sort out the technology right now. What's the big deal about what. What I should salivate over, or not.  : )

Also.. If you're gonna cheap out on video... try and limp along on what you have until you can get what you want is what I would say. I wasn't suggesting to get a cheap video card, unless.... yours is just so out of date that a $40 video card is a major improvement (been there! but I still saved and got what I have now...), or, your video card won't plug into the new motherboard and you just can't afford the video you want. At that point 40 bucks becomes easier to swallow, and, a video card isn't that hard to replace and install drivers for. Usually : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 04, 2018, 10:25:54 PM
I'm making a new post due to this one has some actual questions in it, whereas the other one is more a meeting of minds.

So.

Memory.

I want to get (1) 16 gig stick and plug it into my (2) memory slot motherboard..

What is more common, today? That I have to fill both slots with 8 gig sticks, or that I can just plug (1) 16 gig stick in?

Newegg has about every other imaginable detail I could want except this one that I never know!

I'm really surprised how low cost the motherboards I'm looking at, are, so far! I expected them to start at ~ $80 but it's just under $60..

Now tell me some more Super Technical, TQ... What are the sweet motherboard busses, today? What should I try to get on my motherboard if I can afford it? Anything special? A good PCIE interface? A good video interface? Anything special, period? It doesn't have to be sweet, just noteworthy.

It's not a business PC ya know. I'm all games with this PC. Well, and whatever else needs done on it..

My shopping cart is at $320 bucks with (No Windows, yet.....) a Ryzen AM4 and a cheap mobo from the manufacturer I like that supports it and supports DDR4, and, with a 16 gig stick of DDR4 3200 (decent?) memory... That's perfectly acceptable! I wouldn't mind spending the same amount of money and getting more powah from sale prices. Just an example of 3 minutes of Newegging. Who is still really great! On organizing their data, at least.  : )

edit:

PCI-Express 3.0 seems like the newer SSD interface..? there's different flavors like "x4"

I'm totally good with pricing on SSD PCIe x4 drive pricing if that is toppish of the line.

Is there anything else I should be looking for with SSDs? Or SSD interfaces on motherboards?


This edit reserved for bus questions and possibly more, for video:

Yup, I'm back.

Ok, video is more complicated. The sweet Nvidia spot seems to be 6 gigs memory, pcie express 3.0 x16 interface. I'll take any suggestions, here, too! Anything you might think is noteworthy to look for, or at, or that is coming.

I know the latest Nividia cards were like 2 freakin thousand dollars recently.. For STO players! But not this one. (Inside joke..) I never in my life saw video cards for a price approaching anything like that, except.. back in the day when math co-processors and AutoCAD were special. But not for home PC! Sheesh. $2k! A home video card..

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 23, 2018, 12:51:05 AM
Soooo... I finally decided to get some dental work done and it ended up being really.... taxing. (it was 'just' two wisdom teeth pulled, I didn't get a metal grill...yet).  I'm honestly just happy to have my marbles back and rolling around like I'm used to, again.

And now here we are, right in the middle of Cyber Monday weekend. Already. I had this idea hatch months ago but I never got around to completing it and don't expect to, again, this year.

Howeeeever.. I have done some more shopping and the sales, they are still ahead and not behind, yet..

Here's a shopping list so far...:

Memory.. One question I still have, is, with memory. Can my motherboard support (1) 16 gig stick or do I have to buy (2) 8 gig sticks. This question seems irrelevant, now, due to.. pricing. Whenever I do buy, presently, (2) 8 gig sticks seems the way to go, and, presently, DDR4 3200/PC25600 memory seems the speed it will go at. Memory price is ~ $100 (it's $115 but I know a good manufacturer will have it on sale before the Cyber weekend's up..).

Video... ugh.. Video is always so expensive.. On the other hand, all my shiz is ancient.. I have the funds.. and there is no better time of the year to buy. I *could* feasibly still use the video card I have now - it's still supported by Nvidia, and, it's fast enough to play what I play. If I do get a video card... I found a dual fan version of the Nvidia 1060 (6gb card) that had a lot of reviewers saying how cool and quiet it ran. I guess there is a single fan version, too, I should look at the fans... I didn't bother - I have dual fans now and like them. Price for video is ~$240.

Processor seemed to be one of the easier choices and I went with an AMD AM4... (current pre-Cyber Monday choice for) flavor: Ryzen 7 1700 8-core 3.ghz (and it looks like they are playing with Turbo Buttons, again..) It's 65 watts. It's one of the more expensive components, as ever, at under $220.

Motherboard took me awhile... I like nice, thick, solid, non-flexing, Gigabyte boards. Unfortunately I ran into a lot of bad reviews on the lower end ones.. I ended up with a midrange board that not only seems to have all the bells and whistles, but, also had good reviews on the onboard sound.. which.. is always a nice plus. I did not notice any major difference in Ratings (mine had fewer, but they were all good..) when it came to AM4 Chipsets... however.. I did notice that there are more than a few out there. Any recommendations or things to avoid? I picked a chipset that seems about average when it comes to availability - AMD X370.

I haven't looked super seriously at SSD's yet and they are confusing me.. M.2 is the fast bus, right...? But wait.. It's not just M.2.. It's PCIE 3 x4 ... Right? is that the fastest freeway?

Then what is Gen3...? Is Gen3 just another name for PCIE 3...?

My Wishlist MB supports M.2 PCIE 'Gen3' x 4 and the SSD I'm looking at says that it is M.2 PCIE 'Gen3' x4.. However, they also come up on a product search when I look for PCIE 3 x 4...

Windows is still overpriced and I don't want to use version 10 but I don't want to buy an overpriced version 7 with a shorter lifespan so I'll probably get the overpriced version 10 - Full Retail version - so that I can install it however I darn please with the minimum of hassle. One 1 machine... Maybe they have a sale on this, this weekend.

I probably won't buy anything, again, this year... But.. I thought I'd get a parts list together and see if the sales inspire me, anyway.. If I could save a few hundred bucks from my current wishlist and feel fairly secure in the tech I'd get, I just might do it.

Any tips would be appreciated!

Thanks for getting my juices flowing this year. Surely, I'll do this next year if not this one...
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 23, 2018, 08:52:07 PM
I considered buying a pre-built. The thought lasted an amazingly large fraction of a second. Like, maybe 1/4.

*shrug*

I've bought exactly 1 pre-built in 30+ years. It was an actual IBM (my second and last IBM chip) that was brand new in the box and pretty up to date and I paid exactly 500 bucks to a friend/co-worker. In a brown paper bag. JK. sorta.

There's good sales all year. This time of year is just... the absolute best. If, you know what you're looking for.

I don't.

I'm still a little fuzzy on busses. Busses are important because that is where tech is always going - wherever the largest freeway (potentially) is. Power consumption is important because that is where the tech is always going, too - less (relatively speaking to what is current with consumption) is more, when it comes to heat and efficient use of power. If, consumption is even a standout. And it currently does seem to be with DDR4 and 65 watt CPUs.

Speed is important (if my funds were unlimited it would be the only consideration) .. but.. Take memory, for example.. Currently there is a relatively huge and surprising difference in price with DDR4 based on how fast it's rated to go. But really... when I'm playing STO... how much am I going to notice which Flavor of DDR4 I have? The slowest DDR4 must surely blow away the DDRAncient that I'm currently using - and, memory must be the simplest thing to replace and the cheapest thing to ship - for if there ever comes a time that the high-end DDR4 looks attractive and I want to upgrade.  I can currently get midrange DDR4 for half the price or less of the fastest DDR4 and see no reason not to.. I mean we're talking a good $100 right there. Which, I can then pump into a much better quality motherboard.

You really don't want to cheap out on the mainboard.. (But who of us hasn't!! lol... at least once) I mean... eeeeeeverything plugs into it, ya know? You want it to boot...every time, and, you want everything that is current to be able to plug into it, and, in a sufficient quantity. It has to have enough of the slots that I foreseeably want, and, have them on a well built mainboard that is built for reliability as well as speed and is made with tech that you hope is where technology is going and therefore will get more support and luv and longevity. The mainboard is also pretty much the last thing you want to have to upgrade/fade from being current.

Hard drives... Whatever. Any SSD is a major upgrade to me at this point and there are so many cheap ones from good manufacturers... One thing, though, is slots. I want to get what's current/where the tech is going, and have enough of them on the mainboard. At this point... I would get tons of mileage from a $100 SSD to run Windows and games on and I can figure out something for the rest of my junk (mostly video), whenever - or, just run it from this PC.. Thing is, I bet there are going to be some huge SSDs on a huge sale this weekend just to tempt me into buying what I won't benefit from when it comes to the goal of this build - to build the best PC possible with which to play what I already have and foreseeably want to try.

Usually I'd involve a few weeks of Anandtech in this process.. I dunno if Anandtech even exists anymore. I'm sure Google knows but I didn't check.

The thing for me to look out for this weekend might be the thing I thought of buying, last... Video. What better thing to buy when the sales are biggest.. and what's the easiest thing to make a decent decision on..? Just get whatever's the most current that makes your eyes bulge when you see the sale price. Windows 10 Retail is pretty much a no-brainer, too. If they have it half price, I'm all over it.. whether I have a PC to put it in or not.




Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 23, 2018, 11:16:04 PM
An AM3 build...

You know what, AM4's are kinda pricey.. Everything else seems OK about an AM4 build costwise, but, these CPUs *are* ~ a hundred dollars more than what I'd expect due to how much all the other tech is costing.

The thing is... The CPU is the Onnnnly pricey thing in an AM4 build.. so far as I can see. So far.

It does give me pause and rethinkage. I hate to see the price of a (CPU, in this case) single part keep me from upgrading to a whole, newer, albeit not huge leap-stepping, generation of memory and mainboards/chipsets. I hate to spend over $200 instead of over $50, too.. Still.. It's a single part we're talking about, so far as I see, so far, holding up a whole generation upgrade - a generation that will likely take years for developers to take full advantage of, which, buys more years on the longevity scale - which, could well be worth $150 (or whatever it is, exactly, I have to look it up again)..

Unless some huge leap is on the near horizon, I'm still leaning towards AM4 and DDR4.

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 24, 2018, 02:01:01 PM
I see a Ryzen 5 (95w..) for 1/3rd off already...  : D

I saw one of the fastest looking M.2 NVMe (I'm Lurning!) and best rated 500gb SSD drives... for $100.

I saw OEM Windows for $89... if it were $50 I'd get it - otherwise, I think I'm done with hassling with OEM's..

Motherboards have been a real sticking point for me.. I might even have a build put together and be checking out Intel by now. Intel and ATI, the two companies I avoid out of habit, look tempting for the first time in forever and I'm not even shopping for them. ATI is ancient and used to be great, but, I've had (in super limited experience) nothing but hassle with their drivers in more modern times as compared to Nvidia's fire and forget drivers. AMD and Nvidia have also simply become comfortable, to me. Especially AMD.

Anyway. Usually this is a no-brainer. Grab a good looking Gigabyte board and call it done - the only decision was how much to spend on what model..

Gigabyte is getting horrible reviews lately.. I mean I scoured them, too, because I really, really, want a Gigabye board. I mean, come on, this one's lasted me 12+ years and still's getting the job done, huh? It's not my first, either. MSI on the other hand... looks like they are currently doing interesting things (I've bought MSI before, too) and I finally have found at least 1 motherboard that I feel halfway comfortable buying that's made by them.

The only thing that could make me buy, this weekend, is if all the planets came into alignment.. I didn't spend any time at all researching what techs are saying about the new tech, for one thing.. which makes me feel like I'm flying blind. It's also been 12 years since I built anything.. Bad combo.

However... I did spend a lot of hours yesterday scouring what's available, costs, and reviews (which are unreliable many dimes due to they are made by sincere people that are having problems - but, likely it's user error - that's why it's good to hit the tech forums for reviews, especially for motherboards, which, I have not done. yet.). Well, and, my shiz is old - I can't hardly go wrong, and, I'm especially ready to upgrade due to my Video drivers are going on 1 year old already due to I can't update them anymore on this PC.

The sales on what I think I want would have to be super, super, great to make me want to buy right now - but, if they were, and all the stuff I think I want is hundreds of bucks less than normal... *shrug* I might just do it.

One odd and interesting thing was in AM3 chips.. They have integrated Video// how weird.. Is it any good/quirky?? Saving a hundred bucks on a processor *and* over a hundred bucks on a video card might make shopping more interesting. I'd have to be able to put together a super cheap AM3 system to make it attractive to me.

Anyway - if anyone has anything to contribute, go for it : D

I'll have to build a new PC, eventually.... so, the info willllll get used, eventually...  : )

Edit...

The main things I'm looking for right now are more info on NVMe and AM3's integrated graphics.

If I get an SSD, it's going to be NVMe, but, it is looking like there is still a relatively small percentage of motherboards directly supporting it. I have read that there is a slot upgrade for motherboards not supporting NVMe as-shipped that is fairly inexpensive and easy to install..?

I am assuuuuuming that I can't just have a PCIE 3 x 4 slot... I must also have NVMe translation, right...?

As for AM3 integrated graphics... a $50 processor with a free integrated video card could be appealing, if, the video card is any good... Is it? Is it wonky in any way? Does AM4 have integrated graphics, I haven't noticed.. If so, same questions + is the video significantly better than what's in AM3's?



: )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on November 24, 2018, 07:15:04 PM
Concerning memory, 4GB is barebones, 8GB is comfy, 16GB or better is best.  Don't concern yourself with filling slots or how much is in one stick.  When you need to upgrade matched sets are best, so you'll probably fill all four or six slots with new sticks rather than reusing old ones.

Motherboard busses aren't really what I choose focus on, since Intel and AMD come up with new ideas to mold the architecture around every few years.  AMD glomps onto HyperTransport.  Intel lurvs Quick Path Interconnect.  In two-to-three years, there'll be new ones.  And if you don't have the latest processor or motherboard, you can't take advantage of it.  (No matter; yours will continue to work.)  Motherboards cost too much (not just price, but effort, uncertainty, and differences in sockets) to worry about upgrading. 

DON'T CHEAP OUT on the Motherboard.  Yes, I did it once.  It was my first PC I made.  I edged away from something more stable like ASUS, ASRock or Gigabyte, and aimed for the cheapest motherboard I could find at CompUSA before it went belly up.  A $35 Biostar for a Pentium D.  Man, that was the worst mistake I made for that machine.  So many problems... (*shudders*) ... the system worked for about four years before the quirky startups, sudden power-offs and bluescreens made it impossible to use reliably.  (This way my daily driver for playing COH mind you.)  My current system is on a ASUS motherboard, and granted it wasn't the more expensive model I could have gone for, but it's been running since 2012.  It has quirks by now, too... (I have no control of my Volume through Windows without Windows crashing, but I use other programs to change the volume on it)  But it has BSOD'd on me only once or twice in a year.  And most of those chalked up to me upgrading something it didn't like.  Moral of the story: If the Motherboard is cheaper than $80, and it's NOT a Mini-ITX or similar Small Form Factor board for a special purpose (ain't nothing wrong with a Shuttle PC or Raspberry Pi if you know it's limitations, of course), be very careful how you proceed.

Anandtech is still around. (https://www.anandtech.com/tag/cpus)  They've changed focus towards business, workstation and enterprise computing in recent years vs. consumer systems.  They still report on consumer CPU and GPU news, but do less comparisons and reviews than other sites.

Now for storage: so many choices.  First of all, M.2 is only a connector.  It's not a technology like SATA or original flavor ATA, it's more like a port.  M.2 can house (depending on device keying) anything from Wi-Fi LAN Cards to Storage (the most common use for one) to USB devices (less common).  It was part of Intel's NGFF (I think I explained this earlier.)  What's tricky about M.2: you have to read the motherboard manual or label to see what it supports.  Fortunately, a lot of M.2 slots in desktop systems are only one variety.

M.2 USB 3.0 -- This port has the same throughput as a USB 3.0 connection.  (625MBps, realistically, you'll see transfer speeds around 100-120Mbps.)

M.2 SATA -- This port has the same throughput as a SATA 1.5, SATA 3 or SATA 6 connection.  (1.5Gbps, 3Gbps, or 6Gbps respectively.)  The new hotness is SATA 16 (16Gbps), which is in it's infancy right now.  Most common is SATA 6.  SSD drives can use SATA, but they tend to bottleneck under even SATA 6.

M.2 PCI-E/AHCI -- This port has the same throughput as a PCI-E x4 slot on your motherboard.  This uses the AHCI interface, which is meant for spinning disks, and is considered an absolute minimum to use a SSD effectively, but it has inefficiencies as AHCI was written before SSDs were popular.  This is about as effective as the SATA port above, but it's more common on laptops since second hard drives aren't as popular due to the space premium.  This is a cheap middle-ground.

M.2 PCI-E with NVMe -- This port is the same PCI-E x4 slot with Non Volatile Memory Express.  This is as good as it gets for SSDs, with theoretical speeds up to 3500Mbps.  (I've never seen it go that fast on my work PC.  250-450MBps is the fastest transfer rate I've had.)  As with everything else, NVMe is an evolving standard with more throughput in each iteration it takes.

The kicker... "Do I have to buy a system with a M.2 slot in it to take advantage of NVMe?"  Absolutely not.  PCs have been using PCI-E slots for storage devices since the standard was used to replace AGP/PCI.  In fact, PCI-E Storage is used in high-end servers for large capacity SSD cards as it's faster than using SATA, or the server storage standard, SAS.  (Serial Attached SCSI, which you'll be hard pressed to find in consumer PCs.)  StarTech sells a PCI-E Card to slot a M.2 on a system that doesn't have a M.2 port on it.  The downside: it's a PCI-E x4.  Most systems have x1, x8 and x16 slots (x16 for a video card, x1 for accessories. x8 is less common, used for "second monitor" video cards and daughterboards.)  You can insert a x4 card into a system with a second x16 or any x8 slot, though.  Smaller cards fit in larger slots to run at the smaller card speed.  https://www.startech.com/HDD/Adapters/pci-express-m2-pcie-ssd-adapter~PEX4M2E1 (https://www.startech.com/HDD/Adapters/pci-express-m2-pcie-ssd-adapter~PEX4M2E1)

Video Cards... Tom's Hardware is your friend.  They release regular comparisons of cards being sold today. (https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gpu-hierarchy,4388.html)  In that same link, scroll down for the "Legacy GPU Hierarchy".  This is the grand equivalency list of GPUs against one another, grouped into classes with similar cards, so you know where the bang for the buck really lands.  (If two cards are 2 or 3 groups away from each other or more, it's a significant performance increase.  If they are only one group apart or the same tier, you'll get about the same performance with the cheaper option.)  Use the hell out of this.

AMD has upped their game a bit.  Their graphics drivers have improved a great deal from the Catalyst days, with less bloat and nonsense software features that few people used.  (Movie optimization apps are for cinephiles and creative professionals who calibrate color on their systems.  Most folks really don't care, they just play a movie with the defaults.)  I'd give the RX 500 series a serious look, but only where it makes sense cost-wise.  For the same $180, you can go for a GeForce GTX 1060 3GB, or a Radeon RX 580 8GB with a decent bump in performance.  I'm happy with my GeForce GTX 1050 Ti at $150, but the AMD Radeon RX 570 is $20 less and runs significantly faster with the same amount of RAM.

They do a similar comparison with CPUs as well, (https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/cpu-hierarchy,4312.html) but the Ryzen 5 is a good choice.  Most high-dollar CPUs are really splitting hairs these days versus actual performance gains.  I wouldn't worry too much about it.  At the risk of plagiarizing, they have good advice in general:

Quote
You can't lose with AMD or Intel: So long as you’re considering current-generation parts (AMD Ryzen 2000 or Intel 8th Generation Core “Coffee Lake”), this debate is basically a wash, with Intel doing a bit better on gaming and browsing and AMD handling tasks like video editing faster.

Clock speed is more important than core number: Higher clock speeds translate to snappier performance in simple, common tasks such as gaming, while more cores will help you get through time-consuming workloads faster.

Get the latest gen: You won't save much money in the long run by going with an older chip.

Budget for a full system: Don't pair a strong CPU with weak storage, RAM and graphics.

Overclocking isn’t for everyone: For most people, it makes more sense to spend $20-$60 more and buy a higher-end chip.

My system is a Core i5-2320, and I'm in the second 'tier'.  If I build a system to be in the first tier, it won't be a dramatic change from what I have now, so I'm only going to upgrade this system when I need more than it can provide, or when it gives up the ghost more or less.  (I've changed the PSU and Case around the system already... so it's not too much further off.)  And from the rising prices on Intel's side, my next system might be a Ryzen too.  Intel's last processor reveal pointed at them chasing the high-dollar side of computers with the Core i9 series, leaving less options overall for sub-$300 processors.  AMD is leaping on this vulnerability to gain market share, and they're right for doing so.

As for a prebuilt system, I was helping one of our DJs on Cape Radio pick through a system, and this one checked off all of his boxes:  https://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer-Dragon (https://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer-Dragon).  Post-Black Friday, it lost the $150 discount that really sweetened the deal (it's around $740 out the door now), but there's quite a few component upgrades left that are no cost, such as SSD or Video Card improvements, and most of the components are up-to-date (they're not pushing AMD-FX processors or on-board graphics except for the newest Radeon Vega Ryzens, which got awesome reviews before and after release.)  Give that a spin this weekend and see what you think.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 25, 2018, 02:25:33 AM
Thanks TQ! I will give this a couple of re-reads before the weekend is up.

One thing about (good old..) Tom's Hardware list... It confirms my luv of the GeForce 1060 6gb flavor - now it just has to cost ~ 70 bucks less, which, I bet it will - I think I already saw a good one (dual fans, good company, good reviews) for ~ $230.

Tom's list doesn't mention anything about integrated graphics.. If they're good enough to play games as well as they play for me, now, on my 6 year old GeForce GTX 660 that sits in a 12 year old PC.. and I can build a super duper cheap PC around them... That might be something to consider. I don't mind building a whole new PC in a year or two or three nearly as much, if, I pay next to nothing, now.

Integrated graphics sound scary, stability and speedwise, though!

I'm starting to think about building a system around the Video card.. The very thing I said could be worried about, anytime. If I can get modern muscle in PC at a reasonable price, yay, but, putting a really cheap and stable (old tech..) machine together that has a PCIe (3? 3rd gen?) x16 slot in it for a Cyber Monday priced GeForce 1060 6gb... and give it a (cheap) reasonably fast and reliable hard drive/SSD... that might make sense, too.

Thanks for the pre-built link! Pre-builts are so tempting.. I mean, I even need to shop for a case. I think I can get a decent one local. I think. I've had crappy cases for so many years, I'd kinda like to get a good one again for the next decade or two. Pre-builts often come with pretty decent looking cases and I don't have to make any decisions, other than, does everything look OK that they picked, and, I don't have to worry about troubleshooting doa parts, or, screw-ups on my side - I can blame the pre-builders for all my problems. *click* *unpack* *plug-in* *start installing* (Hopefully, or, call for RMA..) doesn't sound awful.

I have to go through everything again, pricewise, and I'll re-read your info, too. I like to look at things from all angles before I lock myself into a certain way of thinking. Older, more stable, cheap cheap cheap tech (if it really is) may be even more attractive than building a PC that is relevant 12 years from now. It depends on if the 'old' AM3 tech really is a lot more seasoned/stable and if it really is a lot cheaper. I wasn't seeing a huge price difference in AM4 vs. AM3 tech, except in the cost of the processer itself but I'm going to give the cheap route another look.. just to see what kind of savings we're really talking about. Sometimes tech that's a generation back is smarter, like if it's way more stable and cheap and yet still pretty darn relevant. Sometimes not.

I'm cheap but I don't like to cheap out on my PC's unless it makes sense to at the time.


Motherboard busses aren't really what I choose focus on,

That's because you are up to date on them! The last I knew, PCIe was PCIe.. there was no nvme, we had USB 2?, there were not so many flavors of SATA and DDR and we weren't burning Blu-Rays.. I don't have all the new tech memorized and prioritized. I don't know what's on it's way out, what's on it's way in, what the actual performance differences are, what you really want to have, what you don't really have to care about.. What's buggy, what's stable... What Everyone Wants, today.

For example.. when PCIe was new and you asked me 'hey, should I stick with PCI?' I'd say, nuuuuuu. Because PCIe was super yummy goodness (to get technical) and I jumped all over it at the first opportunity and never looked back. 

I think I've built a PC with a Biostar mb before, too. I used to build a new PC every year or two, and, now that I think of it.. yeah, I used more than 1 cheap MB in the beginning.. It's pure luck if you have problems or not - your odds are way better if you only use the thing a year or two.

When I worked for a large corporation... we had a whole department of 100 people or so using PCs that had cheap motherboards in them that was sitting in the case on the cardboard box that they came in...LOL! No screws, nothing. I think I saw ... Scotch Tape holding them in.. All the things had to do was touch metal in the case due to getting bumped or whatever and *bzzzzt!* It was a real treat meeting the tech that actually talked the department head into going for the idea and OKing the purchase as well as the rollout. Nearly 20 years later and it still makes me shake my head in disbelief.

Mucho Thankos, again! Much appreciated  : ) I'll be back for a fresh round of questions soon, I'm sure  : D
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 25, 2018, 02:15:53 PM
Here's a possibly interesting thought....

I need a case, a power supply, and Windows 10...

A case is at least 50 bucks, ~ same for power supply and Windows 10 is $100+ = $200+

Now..

I am seeing entire PC's for sale for this price and even less..

The only bad thing I can think of, is.... what version of Windows are they using...? (And how cheap is the power supply.) I bet you almost anything that it's OEM.. If it's OEM than I can't use it when I rebuild the PC that Windows came on... which isn't a deal-killer... due to I'll still be getting everything I need (really, I just want a machine that runs STO smooth, and, that I can update drivers with, and, has Windows 10..), and about as cheap as possible... but.. it sure sours the plan.

Some of these cheap machines come with Windows 7.. I don't care about that if it's an OEM due to an OEM isn't going to help me in the long run, anyway. Even a cheap Windows 7 machine with a GeForce 1060 in it would probably blow away what I have  for under $500 and all I have to do is put in a video card as far as building goes..

I sure wish I knew if these were OEM Windows or not.. I mean, it makes a $100+ difference in usable parts that I can migrate to a new-new machine.. If they had Windows 10 Full Retail then it makes the idea a lot more attractive.

The PSU has to be decent, too.

Thoughts?

I'm thinking I can put a new video card in these cheap systems and have a better PC than I have now, and, with a longer lifespan 64-bit operating system with which I can download the latest video drivers.. Which, is the essence of my main goal. Then, I can shop until next Cyber Monday... much more informed and with way better NVMe SSDs available for cheaper and build a beast.

Is a thought.

If these machines came with Full Retail versions of windows 10 - it'd be a no-brainer. $200 for a better PC than I have now with over $200 in parts that I can rebuild with when the time comes. Or.. what I have now.. $800ish+ for as modern a machine as I can put together with the info and tech I currently have available to me.

*thumbs through more sales*

~~~

I just noticed that most of the stuff in my Wish List... is Sold Out... lol

*sigh*

: )

Time to research plan B.. with the $100 less processor that goes over 500mhz faster and runs twice as hot.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 25, 2018, 08:01:40 PM
Oh, SNAP!

AMD RYZEN 5 1500X 4-Core 3.5 GHz... at a yummy 65 watts... for... $120..

GTX 1060 6gb flavor, dual fans - good company & reviews - $240..

The rest of the stuff just needs to be ... reliable. The main luxury I'm thinking about, now, is M.2 slots - number of, and what I need to install the fastest SSD that is on the market, today - tomorrow.

Another luxury I'm looking at is Full ATX motherboards. The cost is comparable to mini-atx and so are the reviews. I never liked tiny motherboards - or paper thin ones. I like big, fat, airy, cases, too. I've had to cram too many things into too many small cases and I like my PC heat sources to be as least crammed together as possible on the mainboard. Runs cooler = runs better & lives longer.

P.S.
The integrated graphics question got answered.. No thanks.. Too bad! It could have helped make an interesting cheap as possible to get me by, build.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 26, 2018, 12:09:53 AM
Whew, I'm worn out.

One last question.... for now... I suddenly realize I have no idea what a good wattage is for a power supply, today.. I mean.. I guess I can go back and add up all the numbers..lol..but, nah.. I'm wore out.

Used to be that 500 watts was plenty, but.. lots of things used to be. I hope they aren't any/much higher than this, today, in a midrange gaming PC. I mean, ya know.. 500 watts is already kinda a lot of juice for something that runs as much as I run my PC. I know I don't run at peak watts all the time and I may not even ever reach them, but, ya know what I mean.

I very nearly have a PC put together, btw - using the Ryzen 5 1500x and 6gb GTX 1060 and 28800 memory. Which, brings up another thing that didn't hit me fully until now - why in the world are there so many DDR4 speeds??? and are any of them slow enough to actually slow down my games enough to warrant buying anything faster..  There sure as hell is a large price difference in the different flavors!

I got all the way down to picking a case (such good sales now on mid-towers, too.....) and then this thing with the power supply and memory came up and I looked at the mess around me and my hungry dog and another setting sun and decided to re-join the living : D

I hope you aren't going to tell me that 800 watt power supplies are a thing, now.. And I hope you are going to tell me that, really, there isn't a whole lot of noticeable difference between PC 28800 (I think that is the number I priced..) memory and the higher rated stuff - and that, really, DDR4, merely due to its nature of it being DDR4, is going to be plenty fast in any flavor, and, not bottleneck my CPU. And, you have to mean it!  : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 26, 2018, 02:40:09 PM
You can't lose with AMD or Intel: So long as you’re considering current-generation parts (AMD Ryzen 2000 or Intel 8th Generation Core “Coffee Lake”), this debate is basically a wash, with Intel doing a bit better on gaming and browsing and AMD handling tasks like video editing faster.

How deliciously vague. You know what makes this advice timeless?

So long as you’re considering current-generation parts

Well, duh. When has this not been the case, ever? Never in my experience. AMD and Intel have always been pretty comparable. AMD is significantly cheaper sometimes and Intel pushes the industry forward with innovation sometimes. That's their basic roles, and they do swap them sometimes, but they both will make your PC scream if you build properly.


Clock speed is more important than core number: Higher clock speeds translate to snappier performance in simple, common tasks such as gaming, while more cores will help you get through time-consuming workloads faster.


This is good, tastily vague, info for some, and, a good reminder for others. Now, the real question is: what does this mean to us....today? I.E. how does a 3.5ghz Ryzen 4 compare to a 4.2ghz Ryzen 3.....when it comes to running a single processes/apps - such as... a game.

Get the latest gen: You won't save much money in the long run by going with an older chip.

I won't? Why won't I? Ohhhh "much" money... Define: "Much", plx.

I would argue that - if you can build a system that is twice as cheap, today - and yet runs all your stuff flawlessly - and you can upgrade just as cheap, tomorrow - and have the same effect... the savings starts to add up - and - you are up-to-date with your tech more of the time vs. waiting for your overpriced tech to completely go dead and then getting up-to-date again. I realize that this is what I have done, this time.... however.. I did not start out with overpriced tech and the only reason I waited so long to upgrade was that my money/life situation completely changed.

Here are the true variables: How much difference is there, currently, in tech, and what is the price to get where you want to be. If there is a lot of overpriced tech on the market, such as we most definitely have, now, then, generally there is plenty of perfectly viable tech that the rest of us can afford - due to: Mob Rules.

Why overpay on tech you can't even take full advantage on, today, when you can continually build new machines for ~ the same price, while staying relatively current and with newer parts, in the long run?  Because you don't want to build another PC until you have to, and, you want that time to be as far away as possible.

However, there are times, such as right now..... that, if you are comfortable enough with building a new PC, then you should start practicing because you're gonna be doing it every couple of years if you're cheap and savvy and want to stay current.

It almost feels like the wild west days when things were changing often enough that you had to build PC's much more often than when I build my last one. Except, today, it isn't the tech that's changing - it's the price points... In a way it actually makes things simpler - due to we don't have to learn new tech all the time - we just have to learn the new price points..


Budget for a full system: Don't pair a strong CPU with weak storage, RAM and graphics.


Again, vague, and, duh.. This is an area I am still foggy in due to I don't know what the actual real life performance differences are in today's components. However, even I know this statement is totally safe and vague.

The real question, is.. *what is* strong and weak and what is strong enough?

Your video card is going to do the vast majority of the work in a game. I put a modern video card into my PC 6 years ago and it was amazing. I could run everything in CO on high settings and now that I play STO I can run everything in it on the highest settings. They don't run flawlessly - but, they are close enough. Especially when it comes to the most important portion of the game - the actually playing part - the combat part - the action part - the queues and mishes. My load times? horrible.. But once a queue loads up, I'm good to go. I might get some stutters but nothing I haven't gotten completely used to.

If I had an AM4 motherboard and all the other tech I do already have I tell you exactly what I would do, to upgrade, today. I would buy a new video card - probably the 1060, and I would... Hmmm.. That's all I'd do. When NVMe became more available, I'd buy a new motherboard and drive. I might toss in a new (cheapest Ryzen) processor, I might not - depends on how cheap I'm being.

And my games would run like a dream.

Overclocking isn’t for everyone: For most people, it makes more sense to spend $20-$60 more and buy a higher-end chip.

The closest thing to a bold statement in that entire paragraph.

Honestly, the only difference I ever saw with OC'ing video and CPUs, was in....., benchmarks. I didn't visually notice much - if anything. I don't know if this rings true, today, but, in the past OC'ing was a lot of extra effort and to do it properly (which I never did) cost about as much as just buying faster parts.

It must be a super awesome thing, though, because ppl still do it  : ) I'm more of a Stability type person who likes to keep things cool and simple. Maybe it makes more sense if your cooling gear can be used from upgrade to upgrade and you don't have to invest in new every time you build a new PC. It makes more sense for people that know exactly what they are doing, too, probably... I never really did.




Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 26, 2018, 06:41:50 PM
Sorry to spam new info.. I dunno why I don't just edit my huge @ss posts into even bigger ones..

check this baby out!

https://outervision.com/power-supply-calculator

Not only does it seem to be about as accurate as anything else - it helps calculates your light bill! How cool is that.

I think I can still get by with a 550 watt PSU, today... but.. I might go 650 or even 750 just for the cush. I'm no electrician... Does it matter how far over I go in wattage capability in a PSU when it comes to efficiency..? (or in any way, at all..) I mean, if I'm using under 500 watts at peak in my foreseeable future - is it smarter to get a 550 watt...650 watt...or 750 watt..?

I mean, we can say "plan for the future and get more watts" but 550 watts is and has been plenty, since... decades? Are we really expecting watts to go up, or down... or, moar likely, will they just bounce up and down, yet stay under the max of what we're used to purchasing for in a PSU...

On the other hand.. does it matter? If my peak load is under 500 watts, will I use more electricity if I get a 750 watt PSU? Will it be any more or less stable? If I got a 550 or 750 watt?

I'm leaning towards a 750 watt simply due to there's a billion of them on the market and they're cheap. I've got a super sweet looking Full Tower picked out.. My finest ever, by far.. and for 50 bucks. It's got mixed reviews but the bad reviews seem to focus on the cabling (for case mounted USB ports and whatnot) that I won't even use. Will I? Or did something change here, too? I should be able to just plug everything into the back, as ever, huh? I don't *need* a cable from the case for anything except the power button, huh?

On my current PC I don't even have a power button coming from the case... : D You have to know how to jumpstart it.. There's no power button, anywhere. I just never got around to getting a new one when I lost/broke the switch in the old one (somehow).. I thought I'd fry something doing things that way, but... 12+ years...!

These fancy new cases and fancy new tech don't require me to actually use any case connectors, do they? If not, then, I could care less about the cabling on the sweet case I found - the size, layout, and ventilation make it well worth the cost as long as it doesn't rattle annoyingly with all fans going.. which, no one mentioned it doing.


Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 26, 2018, 07:52:59 PM
Know how I ruled out buying OEM Windows....?

Wellllllll....

Check this out...

https://www.howtogeek.com/272201/all-the-ways-you-can-still-get-windows-10-for-free/

And why I would buy now an OEM (like I said I wouldn't).


Quote
Microsoft has never actually wanted to explain exactly how the hardware-based Windows activation process works. Just replacing your hard drive or upgrading your graphics card shouldn’t cause a problem. If you’ve just changed a few peripherals, Windows 10 may just automatically activate itself after you clean-install it. But, if you’ve changed the motherboard or just a lot of other components, Windows 10 may see your computer as a new PC and may not automatically activate itself.

Head to Settings > Update & Security > Activation and you’ll see a “Troubleshoot” option if activation failed. Click that option and sign in with the Microsoft account you associated your license with. You’ll be able to tell Windows that you “changed hardware on this device recently” and select your PC from a list of devices associated with your Microsoft account. Microsoft’s documentation now explains exactly how this works.

If you read through the link, it says at one point that, basically, it is too late to get the free Windows 10 AND move it to a new PC.

This info on OEM's seems highly useful, though. The only thing stopping me from buying OEM was the hassle of moving it to a new PC.. I mean... OEM's the same thing as Full Retail, functionally... just 40 bucks cheaper.. You don't want to be stuck with a $90 piece of software you know you can't move and very likely will want to at some point when you coulda just paid 40 bucks more for peace of mind, is what I was thinking. Now, I don't wanna pay $130 when I can pay $90 and get exactly what I want.

Microsoft really needs to do something with their pricing, again.. I mean.. You can't sell Windows for the same price every year when there is no upgrade path. and. when it has a shorter lifespan, every year! Windows becomes less valuable every year that it is on the market yet it sells for the same price. Windows 7 should be, like, 50 bucks for Full Retail.. And come with a lifespan disclaimer.

~~~

Something else about certain OEMs that can be a real hassle, potentially, like if you want to do a re-install..

Quote
NOTE: Installation is only possible when using a clean (blank) machine with no other prior version of Windows already installed.

Blah...

It's all coming back to me..

OEM's can be a real crapshoot. Or that's how it used to be. They didn't all install the same.. Sometimes you get one, like the above, which, can totally suck if you just want to re-install or upgrade Windows (if that's even still possible), because, you can't do it without the install wiping your install drive..

I still might get an OEM, I just wanted to add that they can be an adventure/suck...

The nice thing about Full Retail Versions (used to be, anyway) is that you can install them however you want as long as you just install on one PC at a time and only on one PC. No fuss, no muss, no looking up your Microsoft account online or any of that business. Just run the install and choose the options you want (upgrade, clean install) and you're setup and legal and ready to go.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Power Arc X on November 27, 2018, 03:56:18 AM
I   was just messing around on the Fry's  Electronics website and the best I could do at the moment  was  $600.31 for a build based on the GTX  1060 card taking up $219.99 of the total. I   would keep an eye on their website for the Weekly  Deals. They often sell motherboards w/processor  combos. I  basically  got my processors for free that way 2 years ago.
There are a few YouTube  channels that can also give information  on all the motherboards, vid cards, SSD's , ram and processors. Here are three I enjoy watching.
1. JayzTwoCents   
2. Paul's Hardware
3. Linus Tech Tips or any of his channels as he does have several  of them. He has an a great video on how to set up your SSD to run Windows  and making the old HDD  as the storage  device.

Another  website that's  nice for looking  at the hardware numbers is Passmark.

I'm  not  sure  if  any of this will help but maybe it will.






Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 27, 2018, 05:21:28 PM

I'm  not  sure  if  any of this will help but maybe it will.

Yeah, this all helps! We seem to be on a similar wavelength.

First, I have to ask... for $600.31... did you include.... *hiss* Windows? If so, which flavor and how much did it cost?

*without* Windows and with a 1060... My shopping cart is at ... $619.95

So, we are either doing similarly, or, you are slightly blowing me away.

I was thinking this weekend that I really need to get more retailers I trust.. If I can get all my stuff from Newegg, I like to, due to I've had good luck ordering from them and they usually have at least half the good prices I find anyway, or more. I can look up my account from 12 years ago and see all the parts I used to put together the PC I'm clacking away on right now. Which was handy once or twice.

I get stuff from Amazon...

And really, that's about it.

I've used whoever was cheapest and didn't look like a blatant ripoff, in the past - and had pretty good luck, really. But I'm kinda not like that anymore.

So. Yeah. Info on new retailers is great! More than 2 would be good. If things continue to go not super crappy for me I hope to start getting back into at least building my own stuff, again. This weekend kinda helped get me back in the swing.

And you're right! There's sales all the time. This Cyber Monday was kinda unimpressive to me, really.. I mean, I can't tell you one thing that was WOW - that they don't already do on weekly sales, sometimes.. I haven't been shopping much, but, I have been monitoring my Newegg folder full of well over 100 Newegg Sale mails.

So what did you use for Windows in your 600 bucks?? Tell me.... *nothing* plx  : ) then I'll feel happier about my $620 - which, looks like a kinda badass macheen. I reallllly like the case. I'm gonna have the thing forever, so why not get a good one (for $50......). If there is anything I've learned - keeping things from getting hot and dusty helps keep things from going kaput. Well, and, a not tiny case is way easier to work in, usually.

~~~

OH! and...... what did you choose for memory (speed)..? I have 16 gig in my build - it's PC 28800 but I can save like 20 or 30 bucks with 24000..and might. I can't imagine there being that much of a difference - but then again, all these flavors of DDR4 baffles me. The price difference is fairly huge depending on the speed you think you want - I have no idea what the actual real life visual difference is between the different DDR4 speeds on a ryzen 3 system when it comes to games.

I can't imagine manufacturers making/selling cripplingly low speed DDR4... but then again.. why is it double the price, or more, for high end DDR4 vs. low end...? and why a billion flavors in-between? I know that processors are partly to blame, due to they all don't support the same DDR4, but still!

Or is that the secret...? Are old AM4 processors so old... that any cheap DDR4 memory will drive them - but if you have a ryzen 3 (in my case) .. you wanna have at least PC xxxxx... And if that *is* so... what is xxxxx?

~~~

oops.. my build has no PSU, either.. so.. add another 40 bucks. That brings me up to ~ 660 dolaros, assuming I won't buy any of this stuff on sale, which, we can't assume. The only thing on sale right now is the case. And, again, I haven't decided on what flavor of Windows.. so there's another 90 - 130 dollars. I'll probably subtract at least 20 bucks from the memory cost. I can't see paying 20% more for such a small gain from the next step down - well, and, the memory I have in my shopping cart right now is not on sale anymore.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on November 30, 2018, 02:09:02 PM
Something in my favor, sorta, is I run at 1080p. Sooo I don't have to push out nearly as many pixels as those running at 4k.

Man those 4k TV's are sweet.. I saw a 50 inch yesterday while I was wasting time waiting for a prescription at w-mart for just over.. $200? Wow.

But then... you have to have a rig that costs at least $200 more to run it properly!

Still, that's today. Yesterday, 1080p was huge. The day before that, 20" monitors were huge. The day before that 16 colors was pretty good and 256 was wow.

I would argue that 4k is worth building for when the tech to run it becomes mainstream/cheaper. Just beautiful. The tech to run it can't stay expensive forever, either.

Running 1080p on the other hand shouldn't be a big challenge for today's tech I wouldn't think. For example, any Ryzen with a(ny, likely) GTX 1060 and non crippling speed ram (whatever that is..) should blaze through most games at a measly 1080p I'd think.

I'm sure looking forward to the day I plop a 55" or so 4k screen in front of me. I'm looking forward to the step after that, too. It's been a fun ride. I'm glad I got on when I did even though I haven't been able to keep up for awhile.

I have to wonder who is buying monitors for home use anymore and why? TV's are just so ... cheap. Huge. And they look great. I'm perfectly happy with the one I have except that I want the new 4k tech, now.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 03, 2018, 02:07:27 PM
Besides being able to have higher resolutions and curved screens, I can't think of anything I'd use a monitor for over a T.V. and I don't even have enough powah to powah a 4k TV. I started using TVs when movies started coming out on DVD... and I stopped using monitors completely when I came back to the States ~ 15 years ago.

For home use, who is still buying monitors..?

If it weren't for the video driver issue I'm having (I don't want to fool with updating this PC to 64-bit Windows) I wouldn't even be shopping for a new PC. I play old games that run fine on my old PC..

But, I do have the driver issue and I have been saving for years for a frivolous purchase... sooooo.. that's what started all of this. And I figured if I was going to build a PC, may as well do it like I always did.. to be as modern as is reasonable/possible and as futureproof as possible for as little money as possible without skimping on quality - as a goal  : )

You definitely don't need a hotrod to play what I play, though. I might even suggest building a PC similar to the ancient one I'm clacking away on right now if that is your only goal. You could probably put one together for like 20 bucks. Or so  : D + Windows and a Case if needed..

~~~~

OH! And.. TQ.. I wasn't poking fun at you, above, with all the quote dissecting. I was admiring who *you* quoted. In my way. It takes a seasoned Consultant, such as in your quote, to say so much while saying so little. If you know what I mean... : ) It's a fine art.. I've delved in it.. I've seen masters at it.. I was just poking fun at who you quoted, not you  : ) I totally appreciate you helping to get my brain where I was trying to get it.


Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 21, 2018, 11:42:55 PM
OK so I was updating my Wish Lists... and had to share this neat motherboard feature.

One of the less fun things I remember about plugging everything into the motherboard was setting the jumpers and plugging in LEDs.. This seems so handy it almost seems overdue:

(https://app.box.com/shared/static/r38avvhpaprcscytbrpxlma9s2d30jwv.jpg)

First, you plug everything into the plug-plug, and then, you plug the plug-plug onto the motherboard over the jumper block.. No more digging around for tiny little jumpers that fell off and into the case, somewhere, when setting/resetting them. No more squinting inside your case at the jumper block etching or referencing the motherboard manual to see what you need to plug in next, where..

~~~

btw..

With tax and shipping and a OEM Windows compromise, I'm sitting at just under... 900 bananas.. 900! Ouch..

Other than Windows OEM (ugh..) there isn't much compromise. It's got a Ryzen processor, dual fan 6gb GTX 1060, super fast ~ 500gb SSD boot drive, 16 gig of DDR4, a full ATX motherboard with fat pcb and good components, and, a nice roomy/airy case and decent looking 650 watt psu,

If I further lower my standards to just building an acceptably satisfying/modern, stable, Ryzen system.. and swapped out the video/hd/motherboard... I could probably save $150ish.

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 22, 2018, 09:25:31 PM
650 bananas..

The cheapest I can build a system that I can stomach, for, is, almost exactly 650 bananas, currently. I've seen some of the components cheaper in sales, so, I could save a few bananas if I get every part or its equivalent when it goes on sale. I could maybe get that number down closer to $600, delivered.

I had to compromise on... just about everything, except, I upgraded to a Full version of Windows. Still unsure about that $20 decision. I kept the case and power supply that I liked. Everything else got downgraded.

AMD A series won the processor contest, barely - I don't like the integrated graphics - even though I'm assuming you can completely disable them. I *do* like that they are AM4 socket - due to AM3+ motherboards are getting more scarce and more expensive. I also like that everyone says they run cool, and, they are 65 watts.

A dual fan, 3gb, GTX 1050 continues the low power consumption/low heat trend with a video card that doesn't even need it's own power plug and has fans that don't even need to come on all the time.

I dumped the 16 gig of RAM in favor of faster 8 gig memory that cost about half as much.

I did keep an SSD boot drive - a 500gb sata III. I have no other drives. I won't install anything but Windows and a few games on it, soooooo... Why not. I just hope it's not a pain to make it a boot drive - due to it's my first.

What I basically did, to guide me, with this build, was look at what I had now, that works perfectly fine besides the huge load times and inability to update the video driver, and modernized it.

This $650 system gives me way faster video (and with less heat/power) than I have now and I already run at max settings on my old games.
It gives me twice the memory I have, now, and I get by pretty well with what I have, now..

It gives me a much more modern processor - however the processor has less cores and a similar clock speed.. which doesn't instill a bunch of confidence. Still - anything not much below this processor was often actually even more expensive - and anything significantly above it is about double in price. I think my current processor uses twice the juice, too.

It gives me wayyyyyyy faster storage/boot.

I have to keep what gigabytes I have left on (this) my old PC, on my old PC. Which is ok - I kinda want to see how long I can keep this PC running well.. and the thought of having a backup PC sounds good, too.

And, I end up with a nice new case and psu, and, hopefully Windows 10 will still be around when I get around to upgrading next. This gives me like $200 in parts I don't have to buy next time, hopefully. I mean, psu's go out whenever they want to and who knows how long Windows 10 will be around or when I'll upgrade my PC next, but... there is that possibility.

I bare minimum get to carry a good case over, next time! That would have bought me a Ryzen upgrade in this build..

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 27, 2018, 07:52:38 PM
Windows...again..

This is supposed to be how migrating OEM Windows works, today..

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/20530/windows-10-reactivating-after-hardware-change

Supposedly, as long as you unlink your Windows from your old hardware and re-link it to your new, you can carry your OEM Windows 10 from machine to machine to machine - as long as you go through the re-activation process, and, only have Windows installed and activated on 1 PC.

I mean.. It's Windows.. Once it's installed, are you really going to care whether it is OEM or not? It's the same thing, functionally. The main thing, is, you want is to be able to transfer it in case you build a new PC/perform a major upgrade before there is a new Windows so you don't have to spend the $100+ that you didn't want to spend the first time, again.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 28, 2018, 08:49:07 PM
The case I want, is.... ~ $130.

Here is the $36 (not on sale) case I'm willing to settle for.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811853003

The only bad thing about this case is its size. It's not small but it's not a big Bertha, like I want.

Having said that.. There's Fans.. everywhere.

There is place for fan(s) on the side/door - this was very important to me. I ventilate air from my case, now, from the door panel, and, it works excellently. You aren't dragging air *over* anything (drives/memory/processor/video card/chipsets) - you're dragging air directly out of the case.

It also drags air out of the top... very sensible.. and it drags air through the front and pushes it out the back (it'll never make it past the door panel before getting sucked out ... but that's the flow.).

The power supply sits on the bottom. This is new for me. I guess it works. It keeps the power supply cooler, instead of using it as an exhaust fan for that case that also supplies power to the motherboard. It was questionable to me at first due to I don't like the idea of putting a heat source at the bottom of the case - but.. that heat has like 3 ways to get sucked out.. sooooo.. I can live with this design, I think  : ) Power Supplies need love too (or they fail) and with this design - the power supply gets a lot more love than is normal, rather than doubling as an exhaust fan for case heat. (mine gets similar love, due to .. my case sits on its face).

Getting rid of heat is very, very important. So is controlling dust. I would like to have a bigger case that is easier to work around in - but... at ~ 18 inches square and 8+ inches in depth - it's about as big as what I usually end up with... (*sigh*). It's not a horrible size. If it were a mini-tower then it could sell for $10 and have all the fans in the world and I wouldn't be interested. This case is very tempting, though.

If you're on a budget, cases can be hard to shop for! It's a commitment..

Your gear is gonna sit in that thing for it's entire life, most likely. More likely, several sets of gear will sit in that case, as you upgrade.. The cooler and more dust-free it stays, the longer and better it will run (barring acts of Pepsi spills and such). I've had such a bastard of a time (metal finger cuts.. stuff doesn't all fit...cramming cables) putting some systems together in a small case, too. Whereas - in a large case.... as long as your cables reach... it's *heaven*. And they don't pack all your heat sources as closely together, either.

Anyway, there are tons of great $100+ cases and no single one of them stands out enough to write about, but, at under $40.. I was really surprised at how nice this case seems. Nice enough to possibly save me ~ $50.

Disclaimer:
I'm not into advertising for anyone. They have great pics of this case on Newegg is why I use their link, and, I don't know anything about the company that makes this case. Also, I obviously have not tried this case and so if you buy it and it sucks (for some unimaginable reason, I can't see any real red flags in the 600+ reviews) - sorry.. Buyer Beware! If I ever end up buying it, I'll post again  : )

I'm only posting about this case due to looking at 10 billion of them online and finally seeing one that stands out from the rest for someone on a tight budget that doesn't want to compromise when it comes to performance and life of components.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 30, 2018, 01:48:10 AM
This... you have to see.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/10736 (what happens when your short support period expires)

~~~

Has anyone used Linux? Does it run your games?
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 30, 2018, 07:33:31 PM
Windows has been deleted from my shopping cart.

I don't know how well Linux will work out for me, but, I didn't start with Windows on my IBM compatible PCs and with the hundreds of posts I've seen on sites as large as Amazon about stolen Product I.D.s, and, with Microsoft's increasingly difficult upgrade/migration policies, I'm ready to at least try something else, again.

I'm also ready to get more control of my PC back, again, rather than being separated farther and farther away from it with every new version of Windows.

I realize Linux doesn't have the industry support that Windows does and I realize my games may not run very well (or maybe they will) and I'm not looking for Linux to save the day for me, but, I'm going to let it try  : ) I like that it is customizable and doesn't seem to lock the user out of their PC as much. I like that it doesn't come from Microsoft who definitely needs some competition out there. I like that it runs on 99% of the world's supercomputers... I like that it's based on something older than DOS, UNIX. I like that it can be made to look like the Windows interface that I have become comfortable with.

I don't mind putting up with the learning curve if it can do what I want it to. Saving $130 and having all my Windows worries go away sounds pretty nice. I'm not sure I can afford Microsoft Windows, anymore. Or if I even want to.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on December 30, 2018, 09:15:55 PM
This... you have to see.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/10736 (what happens when your short support period expires)

~~~

Has anyone used Linux? Does it run your games?

Yeah, the lifecycle is concerning people who don't update their computers.  You don't need to buy any of those versions of Windows 10 once you get a license for it, they're all free of charge.  But you do need to update the operating system every 18 months in order to keep getting security updates.

Even when those dates pass you up and you get messages that you're 'unprotected', if you just run Update Assistant once, you're caught back up.  No charge.  I've done this on countless laptops at work that teachers didn't use for one reason or another.

That being said, not giving Linux a black eye... Steam did put an effort out to make the client available on Linux, and there's a lot of indie games that support Linux.  But the AAA developers won't budge on Windows support, so it's unlikely to run Dragon Age or Fallout 4 anytime soon without hacking the hell out of the game files or configuring and reconfiguring PlayOnLinux or Wine endlessly.  If your gaming tastes are away from the bleeding edge, it's possible to be very happy with Linux as a gaming machine.

As a fair warning, since most of us tend towards MMO titles: most MMOs do not support Linux.  Despite that, there's a community of players who do use it and share their configurations with others... with the caveat that you need to be your own tech support: if it doesn't work, they can guide you, but you need to be willing to do the footwork most of the way.  Folks who come at the Linux community with the expectation of Microsoft's Tech Support forums will be met with silence.  (Volunteers have a different code of ethics regarding user support: if you demand it and know nothing about the problem you're complaining about, you're on your own.  If you do your homework and ask questions instead, you'll get a reply... maybe not right away, but eventually.)

Star Trek Online Wiki has instructions for a basic MacOS or Linux setup here (https://sto.gamepedia.com/Linux_OS_and_Mac_OS_X).

And if you want to install Linux and Windows 10 on the same machine, you totally can. (Dual-boot over Virtual Machine is advised for gaming: Virtual Machines have less access to hardware resources.)  Use Windows 10 for the stingy titles that insist on DRM, and Linux for the others.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on December 30, 2018, 09:45:47 PM
I forgot to mention, 32-bit support in Linux distributions is also going away over time.  This isn't a unilateral move that all distributions are accepting at the same time, but most have their own timeframe to end 32-bit distributions.  The last Ubuntu LTS that supports 32-bit is 16.04 (http://releases.ubuntu.com/16.04/).  Fedora 29 supports 32-bit and is available now (https://getfedora.org/), but the server release dropped 32-bit in 2016... over time, they'll drop 32-bit from Workstation releases as well.

This isn't a business decision but rather a practical one.  Most people with computers these days use a 64-bit system, so there's not enough 32-bit users who are in the developer/quality assurance community to test a 32-bit distribution before release.  And with Intel's drop of BIOS before 2020, it'll be a stranger use case of installing Linux with testing 32-bit Linux on UEFI.  (Most people won't bother and just get the 64-bit one that doesn't support BIOS.)  Linux was happy to pick up the gap when Windows announced that Windows Server 2008 R2 would only work on 64-bit systems going forward, but it's almost 10 years later, and 64-bit systems have proliferated immensely as 32-bit only systems age further.

The point: compared to the above policies from Microsoft, Linux is pretty close to the same deadline.  I use Ubuntu for most of my stuff in Linux.  If you use a 32-bit system, security updates will still come down for Ubuntu LTS for 5 years, so 2021 will be when those stop too.  (One year later than Intel's decision to cull CSM/BIOS mode from new systems.) It's easier to accept a lifecycle policy from Linux with all installations being free (as F/LOSS insists, not "Free as in Beer" but "Free as in Speech": they want users to report bugs and give feedback, not just passively use it and ignore problems.)  But similar to Windows 10, the fix for a loss of support is to install the latest version.  And with the end of 32-bit, a distribution upgrade means replacing the computer, or accepting 16.04 without security updates.

But if you're buying a new computer, none of this applies.  A 64-bit installer will be fine.  And UEFI will work... the "Secure Boot" problem that Microsoft/OEMs imposed on the Linux community has long since been solved, you can install Linux and keep Secure Boot on using UEFI and GUID Partition Tables instead of BIOS and MBR based partitions prevalent with 32-bit systems.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 30, 2018, 11:55:13 PM
You don't need to buy any of those versions of Windows 10 once you get a license for it, they're all free of charge.  But you do need to update the operating system every 18 months in order to keep getting security updates.

This confuses me.


Even when those dates pass you up and you get messages that you're 'unprotected', if you just run Update Assistant once, you're caught back up.  No charge.  I've done this on countless laptops at work that teachers didn't use for one reason or another.


Are you saying that after 18 months I can still download updates - I just have to do it manually?

That not terribly up to date guide on installing STO is semi-ugly. Constantly updating my Linux so that STO keeps working properly doesn't sound super great, either.

I'm not worried about getting past the Linux learning curve, but, I'm not wanting to go back 30 years to where you're a genius just because you can get/keep your games running well. I was hoping that due to how old it is, Linux would be past a lot of that by now.

32-bit & UEFI..

Hardwarewise I'm already 64-bit, but, long story short, I don't want to wipe this PC and re-set it up with 64-bit Windows 7. I don't want to have any license issues pop up with this old Educational copy of Windows 7 that I haven't re-installed since 2009 and am not sure I have the correct Product I.D. for, for one thing. This machine wakes me up in the morning, plays my Lost in Space... gets me on the Internet, checks my e-mail and weather... and I play games on it. If it ain't broke.... and, all that *is* broke, is, STO.... So I'm not gonna risk breaking everything else to fix STO. Basically. Besides, my machine is just old - it needs replacing before it eventually wears out from use, so, I hopefully won't be relying on this PC for gaming for too much longer, which, is the only reason I need to update to 64-bit at this point, so I can update video drivers. But, due to its age and how well it still works... I want to find a way to keep using it. I've prayed for this thing to stay together so many times I don't have the heart to dismantle it before it dies...lol. Besides, I still get tons of use out of it. *shrug* I think I never didn't cannibalize/toss my old PC when upgrading before - I always did before this PC.

But anyway, yeah, I could install 64-bit on this machine if I wanted to, and, had an OS to do it with.

This machine is so old, though, that I think a whole new system is called for. It's just that old. Although...if I really wanted.. I could use the PSU, and, the GTX 660 video card that is in it could be used in a new machine, too - it's plenty powerful for the 10ish year old games I play.. I just don't have the heart to do it! lol.. dumb, huh. The luxury of having a backup PC could be nice, too, and, that PSU and Video card are... of significantly diminished lifespan.

But if you're buying a new computer, none of this applies.  A 64-bit installer will be fine.  And UEFI will work... the "Secure Boot" problem that Microsoft/OEMs imposed on the Linux community has long since been solved, you can install Linux and keep Secure Boot on using UEFI and GUID Partition Tables instead of BIOS and MBR based partitions prevalent with 32-bit systems.

Are you saying that these problems that you told me about when this topic began and that I am just now beginning to understand, have already resolved themselves? : ) If I understand correctly, this is good news. I didn't like reading about dual boots going away with UEFI, which, I still don't understand correctly (what UEFI is), but, that I see it in my recent shopping, and, it looks like it will be in my future.

I'd love to be able to get rid of Windows altogether... for at least awhile.. on a new PC. I wouldn't mind trying Linux on a dual boot on this PC, either. I've been a pretty solid Windows person for decades on my own machine and in support teams I was a go-to for Windows, but.. it dawns on me that, that is not how I started. It's just how I ended up. Windows(/Microsoft) was dominate, and worked, and not *overly* annoying/constricting (until now, again?), so I went with the Winner.

I haven't been this Un-sold on Windows since Windows 386 when I was using Quarterdeck's Q-Windows on my Tandy 386 and thought the ever-crashing Microsoft Windows 386 had no future at all. I haven't seriously considered a new OS, since... Windows 3.11, when Windows stole the market and I was finally assimilated. I've been content enough until now. Stuff worked, it wasn't too expensive, the updates and hacks haven't been too annoying.

I'm not content at all, with, my control slowly going away (Windows used to just boot and run like any other program - your PC was your PC to do whatever in the world you wanted if you had the tools.. Windows was just another app..) and being replaced with commercialism/advertising/stuff I have to turn off in Windows, or the tons of stolen licenses on the market (whose stolen license did you get? Maybe Mine.. I know that I can likely overcome this if it happens but I don't want to deal with the possibility of it if I can avoid it), and outrageous pricing/short product life (we went from not really having to have a license... to being able to buy one every decade or so... to having to buy one every 18 months - and, for a higher price than ever).

The point: compared to the above policies from Microsoft, Linux is pretty close to the same deadline.  I use Ubuntu for most of my stuff in Linux.  If you use a 32-bit system, security updates will still come down for Ubuntu LTS for 5 years, so 2021 will be when those stop too.  (One year later than Intel's decision to cull CSM/BIOS mode from new systems.) It's easier to accept a lifecycle policy from Linux with all installations being free (as F/LOSS insists, not "Free as in Beer" but "Free as in Speech": they want users to report bugs and give feedback, not just passively use it and ignore problems.)  But similar to Windows 10, the fix for a loss of support is to install the latest version.  And with the end of 32-bit, a distribution upgrade means replacing the computer, or accepting 16.04 without security updates.

I'm OK with the above, due to..

This isn't a business decision but rather a practical one.  Most people with computers these days use a 64-bit system, so there's not enough 32-bit users who are in the developer/quality assurance community to test a 32-bit distribution before release.

Time does march forward. We were doing 8-bit when I started. Fundamental changes, will, occur. Even though it is currently causing me some pain - I see doubling the data path as a very good one.

A positive spin on what you wrote, to an oldtimer like me, is:
64-bit is so stable and supported, now, that it has become the standard and there is no functional reason to not evolve. Which is a good thing  : )

I can remember selling Nintendo 64 ~ the time that Windows 3.11 was out. The rumor at the time was that Nintendo was losing money with every unit due to they were so advanced and selling for so cheap as compared to the technology that was in computers at the time. 64 bit is old.. I'm not surprised we're finally required to run it on PC. I'm more surprised we're not on 512 bit or more, or, using a whole other method of gathering/pushing data.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on December 31, 2018, 07:18:28 AM
This confuses me.

Are you saying that after 18 months I can still download updates - I just have to do it manually?

Windows 10 is designed to automatically update.  It can be defeated, by merely going to Services and setting Windows Update to Manual startup.  But there's other reasons why Windows won't update on it's own.  (Users who never restart their computers and set their inactive hours during their active ones and telling Windows never to reboot when prompted, no/bad Internet connection available, no hard drive space to download updates in the first place...) 

And there's Major Updates that come down.  These are the ones shown in the update timeline: a Major Update replaces most or ALL of the Windows 10 files at once.  This is relatively new to Microsoft, but not entirely.  Think of each Major Update as a Service Pack and it won't seem so odd.  But like Service Packs, people defer these or cancel mid-download because they're huge (2-4GB each.)  When this happens, after 18 months, their current 'build' of Windows 10 will stop getting security updates until they let the download finish and allow it to process.  These Major Updates take just as long to install as installing Windows 10 fresh (15-90 minutes depending on your system) which is why most folks cancel them or stop them from downloading by shutting the system down.  When Windows 10 is ready to install it, that means a good chunk of downtime for your house or workplace.

So why bother at all?  Windows went with this approach to avoid the problem that Windows 7 and 8 suffered from: installing smaller updates that changed the build number of Windows meant tracking a larger and larger pool of updates that had to be done first.  And Windows 7 would just break Windows Update if the list got to be too big, or worse, another program would break it.  (Like viruses and malware.)  With this approach, every time you install a Major Update from Windows 10, once it's finished, you're caught up.  Only the updates made since that build would be needed, and none of the prior ones.  And in general, each major update is worth doing.  Every one brings in new features that add to Windows 10, making it better over time compared to it's initial release.

Quote
Are you saying that these problems that you told me about when this topic began and that I am just now beginning to understand, have already resolved themselves? : ) If I understand correctly, this is good news. I didn't like reading about dual boots going away with UEFI, which, I still don't understand correctly (what UEFI is), but, that I see it in my recent shopping, and, it looks like it will be in my future.

Nope.  An older problem which scared folks off of UEFI and "Secure Boot" in the first place is what I was referring to.  (Microsoft in an apparent 'coup' on all Windows 8 computer makers to make downgrading to Windows 7 and Linux too difficult to bother with.)  Linux can be installed on Secure Boot systems just as easily as in the past before it existed.  That's all.

32-bit is still being removed.  Intel needs to shuck the architecture to continue advancement with their new systems because of the end of the Tick/Tock development cycle, the end of transistor miniaturization in silicone.  (10nm is still elusive to them, so they're making chips get bigger vertically.)  Doing the same will only help AMD in the same pursuit.  But this would be a marginal boon to either.  The components for hardware 32-bit support are approximately 12% or less per chip of a CPU.  It'd be a short gain, followed by the same struggle the following year to keep optimizing on limited space.

Quote
I'm not content at all, with, my control slowly going away (Windows used to just boot and run like any other program - your PC was your PC to do whatever in the world you wanted if you had the tools.. Windows was just another app..) and being replaced with commercialism/advertising/stuff I have to turn off in Windows, or the tons of stolen licenses on the market (whose stolen license did you get? Maybe Mine.. I know that I can likely overcome this if it happens but I don't want to deal with the possibility of it if I can avoid it), and outrageous pricing/short product life (we went from not really having to have a license... to being able to buy one every decade or so... to having to buy one every 18 months - and, for a higher price than ever).

Again, you don't have to buy Windows 10 every 18 months.  If they did that, there would be a lot more outrage about Windows 10 than files being accidentally deleted from a bad update released last October.

But the change in Settings and Customization, that is absolutely true about Windows 10.  With every release, choices are being made for you instead of more control coming your way.  The operating system is becoming give/take with the mainstream.  The biggest fears have not been realized, though:


If you don't mind, let me expand on those two points with a topic I hate.  :o >:(

Walled Gardens and Users: A Journey to Disappointment
Essay by Tahquitz, Age 8.

While he works in IT, Tahquitz is best described as an amateur writer and this segment may contain some or all of the following: opinions not sponsored by Titan Network, logical fallacies, plot holes, spelling errors, and meandering based on a working stiff who reads Techmeme (https://www.techmeme.com/) daily and tries to mentally pin tacks and strings to various headlines thinking it all "means something."  It probably doesn't.

So to explain why Microsoft would be stupid to carry out the "original plan" of Windows 10 (Make Windows subscription based, and only allow Windows Store apps, telling all other apps and developers to play ball or take a hike), there's some background to get out of the way.

Consider how Mac OS, Linux and Windows handle their respective ecosystems.

MacOS:
Obtaining new programs -- App Store and .dmg based installers.  Apple is moving to making .dmg harder to utilize with forcing users to only allow Store apps (this can be disabled with a radio button), but over time they made it clear that in the future the App Store will be the only method soon.

Advantages:  App Store handles the updates of all Mac apps in a single-pane-of-glass.  Apps are vetted by Apple to meet minimum standards (don't break Macs, don't bring in malware, and use MacOS features as prescribed.)

Disadvantages: Independent developers must pay Apple $99 to make apps for the App Store, and Apple gets a cut of all app sales.  Apple's standards also makes certain apps impossible (Steam was pulled from the iOS App Store for example as it let users buy games without involving Apple getting a cut, for example.  So Apple's business decisions may block an app from making it onto the platform at their whim.)  Apps that don't play ball need to provide an update mechanism outside of the App Store, or have to nag their users to install a new version the old-fashioned way.  Until they can't anymore.

Why it'll work: Apple has two reasons they can get away with this.  One: Apple computers (save for Hackintoshes) are mostly uniform.  There's maybe 10-15 models each of iMacs, MacBooks, Mac Pros, iPads, Apple Watches, and iPhones that are in active development at any given month.  All the others that are 'off the list' get no attention from Apple whatsoever.  When a device goes out of support, Apple cuts it off like a knife, and app developers usually fall in line, with maybe 1 or 2 years of app updates before they stop supporting them too.  And Apple's operating system for their computers and devices is free.  They don't charge users for the operating system, and it can't be bought to put onto a system that isn't an Apple.

I attended a conference where an Apple staffer was asked about their move to a closed App Store (the staffer corrected the interviewer, "Secure App Store") what amateur programmers would do if they can't afford to participate.  Their answer was in two parts: just because you can't install an app doesn't mean you can't test it in a runtime environment (which is true), and "I don't think anyone in this room can't afford $99."  Still missing the point: the $99 is an arbitrary cost, which can change in the future.  If you want to make money as a programmer, fine.  Apple deserves a cut for operating the store for you.  But if you don't intend to sell any apps and offer your work for free, it's punishing the programmer for not doing so... especially if there's no way other than the App Store in the future.  They do offer a fee waiver for non-profits, but offering a free tier (even with limits: no more than 5 apps, etc.) would go quite a way towards alleviating that fear.

Linux:
Obtaining new programs -- package management systems.  Depending on your build, Linux uses a package manager to handle updates to both the operating system AND third party apps.  For Debian (including Ubuntu), there's Aptitude.  For Fedora, you have Yellowdog Updater Modified.  ArchLinux has PACMAN.  (Really!)  All of these package managers do the same thing.  They check a list of places that hold programs on the Internet called repositories, ask them for the latest versions of the apps, a list of dependencies, and assembles a list of packages for you to download to update your system.  You review the list, answer Yes, and the package manager goes to work, updating away.

If you learn no other terminal commands for Debian or Ubuntu, know these two:
Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade

Two lines to get updates and deploy them for every program on your computer.  apt-get upgrade prompts if you want to continue, but that's it.

Advantages: This is what MacOS models their updates on.  Linux did this right for years.  When you run a package manager, EVERYTHING gets updated.  Not just the apps you have, but system components and your operating system.  The package manager gets kernel updates, drivers, firmware updates, security fixes, new software libraries and dependencies your programs need.  It's really a one-stop shop to get it all done at once, and neither Windows or MacOS can compete with it in the same way.  No third party installers needed.  (sudo apt-get install firefox)  And there's no uninstallers that nag you for "Why are you uninstalling?", the same command to update is the same one to get rid of an app. (sudo apt-get remove chromium)

Disadvantages: The repositories are a little confusing to use.  There's the OS Repos that come with your system, but others in Ubuntu include Universe and Multiverse.  There's the Partner Repository.  And Contrib and Non-Free ones.  Knowing which apps come from where is a bit of a pain, and merely enabling all of the repos makes your updates slow down, or bring in lower-quality apps (of which Linux does have a lot of... homebrew apps means no guarantees.)  And the user-facing package managers really control low-level package maintainers (Aptitude is a front end for dpkg in Debian/Ubuntu, YUM is a front end for RPM, which has been around for decades.)  When the packages don't work, you have a difficult road in fixing the issue, or simply removing the misinstalled packages to get back to where you were before you started.  (In Ubuntu, when apt-get reports that you need to run dpkg to fix an issue, and you're not well versed in Linux, usually it means you're close to having to reinstall the Operating System.)

Why it works: Linux software has a strong reputation to prevent malware because of the layers of prompts needed to do something bad.  It's not as easy as installing a program and answering yes, as it is in Windows or MacOS.  And the package manager route isn't the only way to make an app.  Because Linux is open-source, you have options if you don't like what's given.  1) you can install a package archive, such as a .deb or .rpm file directly.  2.)  Most Linux distros have a 'middle ground' repository system like Ubuntu's PPA system.  Using a PPA, you can subscribe to an amateur or enthusiast maintained repository that works with the package manager.  Once a PPA is added, you can update, install and remove that PPA's apps just like any other.  3.) Using the source code, you can install build-dependencies, and compile and install the app yourself.  (Very difficult.)

So even with streamlined package management, you still have options to bring in homebrew software, or go it alone and install or compile an app yourself.  But these options come with varying difficulty of use.

Windows 10:
Obtaining new programs -- both and neither.  Like MacOS, the Windows Store is the intended vehicle for 'safe' Microsoft apps, and for updating programs in a single-pane-of-glass style update manager.  But you can also use Windows App Installers (MSI packages, or in Executable self-contained apps that install, run and uninstall as a separate program) to manage programs yourself.  The Store can be forced "ON" from the Settings app, rejecting any installer that doesn't go through the store, or you can disable that (which is the default.)

Advantages: Best of both worlds.  You have the walled garden if you don't like updating programs like in Windows 7 and 8.  (Love those little nag messages that there's a new version of Adobe or Oracle something or other?  Neither did I.)  So for your loved one who doesn't dabble in gaming or installing programs, turn "S Mode" on, and enjoy some simplicity.  In the walled garden, you get told once that updates are needed.  No helper apps are needed in the system tray.  If you don't like the walled garden or want to use apps that take full advantage of Windows past the Universal Windows App framework, you can.

Disadvantages: Windows is used as the whipping child for why other operating systems do things the way they do it.  And most of the bad rap comes from Windows past.  Before Windows 2000 took years of bad security practices out of action by using NTFS and password security.  Before XP put in Service Pack 3.  Before Windows 7 allowed users to tune UAC prompts. MacOS touts their path to only a single walled garden as the largest reason why Macs are more secure and safer from viruses, when in truth, virus and malware makers target the largest group possible.  (This is why exploits are increasing on Mobile Devices.  Everyone has a smartphone, right?)  Linux's largest strength is there's no nags to update a system other than the one window that collects info about all the apps and presents a single unified list.  Windows has one list for Windows Updates, and one for Microsoft Store apps.  All the others, you're on your own to update.  Because Windows software ecosystem is more centered on self-contained apps than a central delivery system, viruses and malware is more likely on Windows than other operating systems (If a user can be duped into installing it, you win.)

And getting to the point... Why Windows would be stupid to go Apple's way and less towards Linux or keeping their status quo: Windows isn't free.  Microsoft Windows is the only operating system you have to purchase to use on a new computer.  (Most don't notice because it's included in the price of a new system.)  Also, Windows has a far LARGER hardware base than Apple does.  A wide array of hardware has to work under Windows, where Apple can hand pick their components, so every model number of an Apple system has the same parts, with few customizations (RAM, Hard Drive, Maybe your Processor, and Screen Size and that's really it.  Everything else is on-board.  And with recent 'software locks' short of visiting an Apple store, you can't change the parts once you buy it.)  Forcing Windows users to just use the Store and shut out all the Windows Applications that aren't 'compliant' means shutting out years of hardware, software, and components that are used around the world. 

And what is Windows 10's biggest strength?  (Yes, I'm about to complement something from Microsoft, try not to faint.) It runs on damn near any system.  (I have yet to find a used PC at work I can't throw Windows 10 on that ran Windows 7.)

And it also runs damn near any program written for it.  Consider that Windows 10 can run any and all of the following:
-- Universal Windows Apps from their Store.  Windows 8 and 10.
-- Windows x64 apps (a growing list.  Works since Windows Vista.)
-- Win32 apps (the majority of apps written for it. Goes back to Windows 95/98.)

Recently, Windows 10 quietly dropped the following:
-- Windows 16-bit apps.  (Have a program from Windows 3.1?)

But even with that... if you reenable NTVDM on Windows Pro, those apps work again.  MacOS won't run apps that use 32-bit anything, let alone any app older than OS X ver. "when they ditched Carbon", let alone anything from Old World Macs (System 6-9).  Linux requires apps to be compatible with it's current dependencies, so running older apps becomes an undertaking to bring all the dependencies in alignment with it first.  Come across a library that won't work with the current kernel, and it's a show stopper.

Bringing a walled garden to Windows means shucking compatibility with far more programs than either MacOS or Linux would lose if they did the same.  Adobe CC would be gone.  Microsoft Office would be dead in the water, leaving folks with apps that resemble the Store version of OneNote (which I'm not digging... I still use and like OneNote 2016 over the Store version after Office 2019 ditched it.)  And most games would be gone.

Going to a walled garden now means goodbye Steam, Origin, and other distribution networks.  (Gabe Newell initially balked at the inclusion of a Microsoft Store in Windows 8, which prompted him to make SteamOS.)  A walled garden means no more MMO updaters and patchers,  And a walled garden means that it's harder for homebrew development, since Microsoft has similar fees for posting and selling apps on their store.  Walled Gardens means that programs that run afoul of Microsoft's policies and business practices cannot be.  (Paragon Chat would likely disappear under such a policy.)

Has Microsoft tried to do this?  Yes.  Twice.

Windows RT was the real reason Gabe blew up.  RT was a version of Windows 8 made for the Surface tablet and other small Windows computers.  But the Store delivery mechanism was more of a need on RT than anywhere else.  Windows RT was based on ARM processors, which means that Intel/AMD compiled apps (the majority of Windows programs) won't run on it.  Without the Store, RT can't install Windows Programs at all.  And that fact made the original Surface tablet fail out of the gate.

Windows 10 S was the second attempt.  It was a pre-loaded operating system that Microsoft put onto Home and Business computers to force users to only install apps from the store.  While this was installed on regular computers (totally compatible with Intel and AMD), it still tanked.  Why get a hobbled copy of Windows that can't install programs past the "Modern UI" apps, when you can install Windows 10 Pro on top of it and do what you please?  Likewise, the sales of Windows 10 S was abysmal, and Microsoft's own analytics shown that a large amount of users replaced Windows 10 S and didn't use their Store at all.  Now an Update made Windows 10 S a "Mode" that a user can elect or shut off at will, eliminating the need to replace Windows 10 S with another edition. 

Have they tried mitigating the Store's avoidance with past Windows apps?  Yes.  For example, the iTunes in the Microsoft Store last spring was a big deal: Microsoft was reportedly using the iTunes entry in the store as a 'shim' to get the iTunes app coded as-is into the Windows Store and have the Store update it.  Unlike the other Microsoft Store entries, it's not a UWA app or a Progressive Web App (read: website application that works anywhere and really doesn't need an installation.)  And it seems to be working.  Moreso, Apple's Software Updater isn't a part of it with this method.  The Store updates iTunes without it. No more QuickTime installer prompts.  If this continues, Microsoft may take out the dreaded "Storepocalypse" by merely allowing the disallowed apps anyway.  It doesn't clear off the ethical downsides of the walled garden, but it might be recognition by them that UWA isn't going to work out how they think it is.

So, twice, Microsoft was told by the market that closing off the ecosystem is a bad move.  Microsoft wants to direct the user experience moreso than in the past, but the road to make Microsoft follow the same route as Apple wants to go means taking out what makes Windows different than Apple in the first place.  Apple can make that sacrifice because it's love it or leave it with them.  Windows taking that approach would change it too much for it to be distinctive from their competition in the first place.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 31, 2018, 06:51:15 PM
First of all - wow, TQ, Nice Book : D


Windows 10 is designed to automatically update.  It can be defeated, by merely going to Services and setting Windows Update to Manual startup.  But there's other reasons why Windows won't update on it's own.  (Users who never restart their computers and set their inactive hours during their active ones and telling Windows never to reboot when prompted, no/bad Internet connection available, no hard drive space to download updates in the first place...) 

And there's Major Updates that come down.  These are the ones shown in the update timeline: a Major Update replaces most or ALL of the Windows 10 files at once.  This is relatively new to Microsoft, but not entirely.  Think of each Major Update as a Service Pack and it won't seem so odd.  But like Service Packs, people defer these or cancel mid-download because they're huge (2-4GB each.)  When this happens, after 18 months, their current 'build' of Windows 10 will stop getting security updates until they let the download finish and allow it to process.  These Major Updates take just as long to install as installing Windows 10 fresh (15-90 minutes depending on your system) which is why most folks cancel them or stop them from downloading by shutting the system down.  When Windows 10 is ready to install it, that means a good chunk of downtime for your house or workplace.


When I first read this ... I had a very negative reaction..

Then I re-read it and found this:

Think of each Major Update as a Service Pack and it won't seem so odd.

And was calmed, some.

I mean, you do not want to read:

And there's Major Updates that come down.

...

...they're huge (2-4GB each.)

If you're paying for your internet by the megabyte.. I was like .. *jawdrop*

Now I must ask.... how often does Microsoft 10 get 'service packs'....? Up to now we get, 2, in the entire lifetime of the OS.

As for the rest...

What a great read! I know more about Apple than I cared to, which is good, I should know more. I just never had the interest..

I'm glad you've used Linux, too.

A major kink in my plan to go to Linux, is.. I still want to use Windows apps.. To do so, Linux has to do a lot of translating.. I'm betting the reason why Linux is on 99% of the world's supercomputers isn't due to its translation ability.. I.E. I'm trying to use a knife as a screwdriver - it'll work, but, is it really what I want to do. Only if I have no screwdriver?

After this whole experience I do have to at least Try Linux and I am glad it exists. It should only improve with age, too, I hope.

Having the widest amount of apps and being the easiest way to get on the Internet were what stole the market for Microsoft. If Microsoft just continues to do what got it where it is today: Allow us to run everything we want and not make us poor doing so, people will keep buying it decade after decade.. It's way easier to not change, than to change.

I'm still confused on Windows Updates and when I can no long download them..

Windows 10 is designed to automatically update.  It can be defeated, by merely going to Services and setting Windows Update to Manual startup.

Are you saying I can do this as long as Windows 10 exists? Then why does the End of Life, link, above, even exist? What's its purpose?

Yeah, the lifecycle is concerning people who don't update their computers.  You don't need to buy any of those versions of Windows 10 once you get a license for it, they're all free of charge.  But you do need to update the operating system every 18 months in order to keep getting security updates.


So basically, what the deal is.. In the link...... is they are stating what builds need updating, when?

Quote
Windows 10 version history

Date of availability~ End of service for Home, Pro, and Pro for Workstation editions~ End of service for Enterprise and Education editions


Windows 10, version 1809 November 13, 2018 May 12, 2020 May 11, 2021
Windows 10, version 1803 April 30, 2018 November 12, 2019 November 10, 2020
Windows 10, version 1709 October 17, 2017 April 9, 2019 April 14, 2020
Windows 10, version 1703 April 5, 2017 October 9, 2018 October 8, 2019
Windows 10, version 1607 August 2, 2016 April 10, 2018 April 9, 2019
Windows 10, version 1511 November 10, 2015 October 10, 2017 October 10, 2017
Windows 10, released July 2015 (version 1507) July 29, 2015 May 9, 2017  May 9, 2017

So.. the Windows 'versions' are the Major Updates, below, that you speak of..

And there's Major Updates that come down.  These are the ones shown in the update timeline: a Major Update replaces most or ALL of the Windows 10 files at once.

(Edited due to confusion of the ending dates) And, so, I should read the MS link, as... the first version of Windows 10 came out in July of 2015 and the first 'Service pack' came out Nov, 2015? The current version came out November, 2018 and is scheduled to no longer get updates in May, '20, and, there is no 'Service Pack' date projected for the latest Windows build/version - but yet the end of service date (if you don't download the latest build/version) *has* been projected?

This also means that 'Service Packs' are now actually scheduled years ahead, and, that schedule, is....every 18 months? And, we have no date for the next one, yet?

So in conclusion: I can 'Service Pack' and further Update my Windows 10 with a single Windows 10 purchase... as long as Windows 10 updates exist/are still being made...? The above Microsoft link is just a record of the timeline? And 'service packs', that are required to install to get regular Updates, are actually scheduled? And that schedule is every 18 months?

Thanks TQ! I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience. I have exactly 1 techie friend and acquaintance, here, and he's a programming teacher who uses a 12 year old Apple with no plans to upgrade and has no use whatsoever for gaming.

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on December 31, 2018, 07:21:07 PM
If you're paying for your internet by the megabyte.. I was like .. *jawdrop*

That is the best reason to say No to Windows 10.  People on Metered Bandwidth can't use it readily if it's the only connection you got.

If you have Internet where you work, and they're permissive enough to let you do it, you can use a USB to make a Windows 10 Install drive (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10), and run that on your system to do the Major Updates without using up your bandwidth.  Click "Download Tool Now" instead of "Get Started".  The program will download Windows 10, write it to the USB, and remove it from the hard drive afterwards.  With Windows 10 running on a computer, plug it in, run Setup.exe, and follow the prompts.  The default should say "Keep all the files", click Install and watch it go.

I've done major updates in my house that way for the last two years because our Internet sucks (5MB down/1MB up on a good day.  Most days it's below 1MB.)  With the USB Method, download once, update 5-6 computers one at a time, no Internet needed.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on December 31, 2018, 07:42:04 PM
How often do you have to do this? Every 18 months?
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on December 31, 2018, 08:13:19 PM
A new build comes out every April and October.  You can probably skip every other one and be okay.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on January 01, 2019, 08:04:30 PM
A new build comes out every April and October.  You can probably skip every other one and be okay.

I'm just trying to understand it all..

Sooo..

The current standard, is, that a new build comes out twice a year on April and October.. (this was news).

And, if I don't want my Windows Update service interrupted - I have only to update to a new Windows build as per the prescribed dates on the MS link I quoted above - otherwise (according to the latest way of doing things), if I let my Windows build version get older than 18 months, I can still use my Windows, I just can't update it - until - I update my Windows build to a new enough version.

And, I can update my Windows 10 build versions and continue to get Windows 10 Updates as long as Windows 10 exists.

?
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on January 02, 2019, 10:49:28 PM
I'm just trying to understand it all..

Sooo..

The current standard, is, that a new build comes out twice a year on April and October.. (this was news).

And, if I don't want my Windows Update service interrupted - I have only to update to a new Windows build as per the prescribed dates on the MS link I quoted above - otherwise (according to the latest way of doing things), if I let my Windows build version get older than 18 months, I can still use my Windows, I just can't update it - until - I update my Windows build to a new enough version.

And, I can update my Windows 10 build versions and continue to get Windows 10 Updates as long as Windows 10 exists.

?

I think you got it.  Updates are not tied to activation; blowing them off doesn't invalidate your Windows or make you pay to buy Windows again.

I won't say Windows 10 is the last version of Windows.  (Microsoft certainly is, but they said the same about Windows XP and that gave em a black eye concerning security.  Someday, Microsoft may eat their words a second time and release a new one to make shareholders happy.  We may be 5 years from Windows 10 R2 or Windows 10.2.)
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on January 03, 2019, 12:47:07 AM
This has been totally educational..

I'm sure glad I totally misread that Microsoft link on End of Life.. I mean.. Things change, and, sometimes radically for the worse and so you have to adapt. I'm glad this isn't one of those times!

Well, hmm. Twice a year for major updates isn't as horrible as it could be. As in: randomly occurring during login, whenever, and often. That, would be bad. Having 18 months before being *required* to install a major update seems totally reasonable.

Now I have to wonder... what kind of data are they pushing out on Regular Updates? As in, if you had to guess, how much data would you guess Microsoft shoves at Windows 10 in a month for Regular Updates?

If Windows 10 actually does turn out to be around 'forever', then, it sure does seem like less sales for Windows over the years.. On the other hand, it would make when you buy Windows irrelevant, which is good for us. I mean, you don't want to be that person that paid full price for a 15 year old OS, 2 years before it reaches End of Life. You want to be the person that bought Windows 15 years ago. Until now.  ?


Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on January 03, 2019, 03:34:03 PM
Varies.  Most Patch Tuesday releases (1st Tues. Of Each Month) covers zero-day threats, but they tend to be small.  Others including cumulative and monthly roll ups of patches can be as big as 1-2GB.

Where Windows 10  has pros and cons:
-- They have taken away individual control.  When you update, you don't get to pick and choose patches anymore, it's all or nothing.

-- However, if you are on a bandwidth limitation, you can turn Metered Connection to ON in Network Settings.  This ignores patches and updates until you connect to a different Internet Source.  (This has been helpful to me and my Hotspot when my home Internet is down.) The Metered Connection is tied to IP Address, though, so when the IP changes, pay attention.  Most of the time it catches the MAC Address and keeps Metered Connection on.  Sometimes it misses.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on January 03, 2019, 06:04:04 PM
The Metered Connection is tied to IP Address, though, so when the IP changes, pay attention.  Most of the time it catches the MAC Address and keeps Metered Connection on.  Sometimes it misses.

I'm not sure what this problem is. It looks like it has something to do with updating Windows from a different Internet source than normal and then when switching back to the normal source and if the IP isn't the same, Windows uses the router MAC address to identify that it's back on the Metered Connection. Sometimes.

I don't have a portable PC or secondary local Internet source, so, I probably won't be doing this anyway. Sounds like a good option if I had a laptop, though. The thumb drive thing you described earlier....could be doable. We do have a local Internet Café that I could visit with a thumb drive for updates every 6-18 months if I had to.


-- They have taken away individual control.  When you update, you don't get to pick and choose patches anymore, it's all or nothing.


Welllll... we doooo still at least get to choose All or Nothing.

Can I choose Nothing...for 6(12/18...) months...and then download a bi-annual Major update and be completely up to date...? Sounds like the way to go if you want to download the least and still never be more than 6 months out of date. I normally would never go 6 months without updating Windows.... but.. it might be nice to have that option.

If major updates will indeed get me up-to-date, then, this is how my update scenario is starting to look...

-Install Windows.. Get hammered with updates..
-Hopefully be up-to-date enough to be able to download the remaining patches for the month..
-Hopefully be able to download the patches for the next month

-When/if hope runs out (there's more update data than I can download..), stop updating until a Major patch hits.

-Major patch hits - go to Internet Café (or just save up enough data at home for the scheduled event) and get caught up.

-Rinse
-Repeat


It's good we can still at least turn updates off! You don't want to be on a metered account and have automatic 2 gig downloads happening..

So you would estimate regular updates to be ~ 1-2 gigs a month? How large did you say the major 6-month updates are? Can I get my Windows completely up-to-date when I install one...?

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on January 04, 2019, 08:03:28 PM
Can I choose Nothing...for 6(12/18...) months...and then download a bi-annual Major update and be completely up to date...? Sounds like the way to go if you want to download the least and still never be more than 6 months out of date. I normally would never go 6 months without updating Windows.... but.. it might be nice to have that option.

It's not designed to be turned off, but the 'nothing' (in all or nothing) is going to Services in Administrative Tools (under Control Panel), and changing Windows Update to manual, not automatic.  That's the simplest way, and least destructive; when you do have time at the Cafe, switch the Windows Update service from Manual back to Automatic, and head to Settings, Updates & Security to get back to normal.  Or if it's major update time, skip the Settings app and go for it (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10).  Instead of Downloading the tool to make an ISO or USB, if its the only computer, just click Update Now and run that app.

There's two other ways to stop updates: Group Policy Editor (not advisable on Home systems, as corrupt policies can happen and the best cure is to start the machine over from scratch) and Registry Editor (which is everything sensitive, and not following instructions to the letter can make your software unbootable, which is the same effect as a corrupt Group Policy setting.)  I'd use those ONLY if disabling the Service for Windows Update fails to work.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on January 05, 2019, 01:14:40 AM
It's not designed to be turned off, but the 'nothing' (in all or nothing) is going to Services in Administrative Tools (under Control Panel), and changing Windows Update to manual, not automatic. 

Yeah, I'd probably do that. It's what I do now in Windows 7.

It sounds like the only difference in Windows 10, is, when I do choose to do an update manually - I have to install everything and can't pick and choose - which, I rarely do anyway - I usually download whatever there is to download.

when you do have time at the Cafe, switch the Windows Update service from Manual back to Automatic, and head to Settings, Updates & Security to get back to normal. 

How am I going to do that with my home-not-portable PC at the Internet Café? I was thinking more to do that thumb drive option you mentioned earlier - where I can download the update to a thumb drive and then take the drive home.


Or if it's major update time, skip the Settings app and go for it (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10).  Instead of Downloading the tool to make an ISO or USB, if its the only computer, just click Update Now and run that app.


The link is for a full install of Windows 10? Are you trying to further confusicate me? : )


The reason I was trying to pin down about how much Windows 10 downloads in a month, is, my data limit is about to go way up. I might be able to handle 2-3 gigs a month. a 5-6gig Major Patch might even be doable every 6 months. If it's not, I can decide what I want to do... which probably means hitting up the Café before my build expires so I can get caught up.

Another thing I am thinking, is... why budget for 3 gigs of windows updates in a month.... if I can just wait 6 months and do a Major update and be completely caught up.. I mean.. I think I can live with being 6 months behind if it means I don't have to deal with 'will I have enough data' for 6 months.

Metered accounts (I use Verizon but it's not just them) are finally getting bigger data limits. I started out with 1 gig... luckily I was still playing CoH and I could play a lot of CoH on 1 gig.. Then, luckily, not long after CoH went away and I started playing a more data hungry Champion's online, my data limit went up again - to 5 gig! That was a big day. Now.. I have 25... and Windows 10 looms.

~~~

I don't have 25 gig yet but I'm told that's what's going to be available here very soon.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on January 05, 2019, 03:49:38 AM
Yeah, obviously a desktop isn't coming with you.  (Unless you're Aubrey Plaza, then you find a way to make it work. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKEeHREK2nQ))

The upside: ANY device can get the ISO.  If you don't have a Windows laptop or device (Mac, Linux, Android... Haiku?), the same page just displays a link to get the ISO directly instead of the USB/ISO tool.  From there, get the ISO off the device and run Rufus to make the USB drive (https://rufus.ie/).
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on January 05, 2019, 03:25:36 PM
Yeah, obviously a desktop isn't coming with you.  (Unless you're Aubrey Plaza, then you find a way to make it work. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKEeHREK2nQ))


That poor guy at the end was suffering from logic bomb shell shock.. "Why would they do it, why!!" lol..

Good ol' Windows 95, too.. so classic. When I was a tech in '95 I just happened to be working for a large corporation that migrated to Windows 95 from Windows for Workgroups (Windows 3.11). Now *that* was a migration. I even got called on to diagnose problems for the executive level head (Vice Pres?) of I.T. (I forget what his title was..) when his laptop gagged and spewed after getting upgraded, which, was a huge coup for the consulting firm I worked for.. His regular support guy wasn't one of us consultants. I'll never forget the call I made from his desk to the Help Desk (we all had a display with Caller I.D. on our phones) ... "Sangita... your performance just hasn't been where we like to see it. We're going to have to let you go..." lol!

"Those monitors are heavy, too, that thing must be 60 pounds" *snicker*

I think I should back up, some.. I think I don't understand how remote updates work.

For some reason I had it in my head that I could take a (n initialized, somehow) USB/thumb drive to a local internet café and download whatever update(s) I need, and then take the thumb drive back home, plug it in, and get up to date.

~~

I'd definitely stick with Windows 7 if support wasn't ending for it. The updates are very manageable and I have my desktop just like I want it. I'm hoping I can still use it on this PC when I unplug it from the Internet. I have no desire to remove Windows 7 from this PC.

I never used a version of Windows that was out of date supportwise but it doesn't sound like a good idea to use a version of Windows that no longer gets security updates, if, I plan to be online with that pc all the time, which, I will be with the new PC.

I'm not going Apple this late in the game unless it's between that and not using a computer..

Linux, I want to try out just to try out, due to it's been around forever and it looks worth trying. And, it runs on the kind of PC I'm used to. If they get Linux to the point where my games run as fast or faster, I might not even mind switching OS's for awhile due to why not, it's been awhile.

So that pretty much leaves Windows 10 now that I understand the pricing better and don't have to go running to Linux - assuming I can handle the Windows 10 downloads. Which, it sounds like I will be able to - especially if I can update remotely using a simple thumb/usb drive if/when I have to.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on February 07, 2019, 08:03:26 PM
Still no new PC!

My largest job from last year still hasn't paid off, soooooo.... I've turtled up.

Meanwhile, sale prices are already better, now, than they were Cyber Monday. If I were to build right now it would clearly be a Ryzen system with an ATI 1050 or better, 16 gig of memory (at least ddr4whatever = pc4 30000), and with at least a 1TB (pcie16/m2, most likely) SSD drive, and, some kind of cheap as possible, fat as possible, external drive (USB would be nice for simplicity/portability) for backups/storage. I still like the last case I found/linked here. I still don't know which way I'll go with Windows - OEM or Full Version. It depends on how big of a deal 20-40 bucks is when the time comes.

Hey! I have a wonder tool for anyone interested. I really like it, anyway. It will tell you about anything you would want to know about your video card. It will even Detect old ones (and new, I'm assuming..)... and give you all this great, specific, info:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/gigabyte-gtx-660-windforce-2x-oc.b463

That info page was launched from a program. The program tells all kinds of useful info, too. The "Sensors" tab gives realtime data on how close to capacity your fans are running.. how hot the gpu is.. how much electricity the card is using... and all kinds of technical info. Zee program, is here:
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/

Download and run at your own risk, of course. It's the Internet - be careful! I've detected nothing but goodness from this application since I started using it a year ago or so, soooo, I finally decided to pass it on to... You. *shrug* I always appreciated a good tool.

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on February 11, 2019, 04:57:22 AM
What's been helpful for comparing parts for me:

https://www.userbenchmark.com (https://www.userbenchmark.com)

CPU, GPU, HDD, SSD, etc.  Select a device and pick any two products to compare.  You'll get a comparison on performance, price, sales, and reviews across the board.  UserBenchmark also comes with a program to take an inventory of your current computer to add to their database as well.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on March 27, 2019, 12:31:09 PM
Since we were talking about Windows 7...

KB4493132 finally came down to my macheen today (I guess it's been out for days already). These tiny updates are always especially ... questionable to me so I looked it up before installing and what did I find?

Quote
After 10 years of servicing, January 14, 2020, is the last day Microsoft will offer security updates for computers running Windows 7 SP1. This update enables reminders about Windows 7 end of support. More information about Windows 7 end of support can be found at www.microsoft.com/windows7 or you can review the frequently asked questions.

I declined/Hid the update..

The End Is Near!
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on April 08, 2019, 12:51:10 PM
It doesn't seem like last Cyber Monday was even a very good time to buy.

I've not been watching my sales flyers like a hawk, at all, but, even just lightly scanning them now and then I can see that SSD prices are down, a lot. Memory is at least 20% less...

MS really needs to have a sale! A big sale.. They gave away Windows 10 when they wanted beta testers... Now that Windows 7 support is going away is a good time to brew a new sale. I dunno why I have such a prob plunking down $120 for an OS that is supposed to be around...infinitely, but, I do.

Anyway, I really wasn't impressed, at all, by last Cyber Monday and I think the reason why, at least partially, may have been that it just wasn't a good time to buy. Presently, seems to be a better time and getting better.

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on April 08, 2019, 08:18:44 PM
Microsoft isn't going to discount Windows 10.  In fact, in the shutdown advisory they're pushing to Windows 7 PCs, they're telling people at this point they don't advise applying a Windows 10 upgrade to any system running Windows 7 that hasn't been purchased brand new in the last four years. 

Go buy a new PC is the message they're sending.  If that's the official word, Windows 10 license keys won't be discounted in any way.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on April 09, 2019, 01:09:42 PM
In fact, in the shutdown advisory they're pushing to Windows 7 PCs, they're telling people at this point they don't advise applying a Windows 10 upgrade to any system running Windows 7 that hasn't been purchased brand new in the last four years.

*shrug*

What does that even mean? I could have built/bought a wayyyyyy different PC than you, 4 years ago. I mean, I guess they have to advise... *something*. Sounds like an extremely dumbed down, and probably overly safe, version of recommended System Specs.

I'm really curious how they're expecting their new Infinity License to work. I mean, I'm all for never buying more than 1 copy of Windows per PC and having a version of Windows that works on PCs from here on out.. But.. *boggle*

I'm curious how it's going to turn out for the many many people loyal to Windows 7 that don't want to switch, too, and continue using an OS online with no security updates.

Anyway, it sure seems like a good time for a sale for them! It would make me much more inclined to release the green from my steely grip, now, instead of waiting until the last minute. Plus, it's not as bad being forced to do something if you can get something out of it.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on April 14, 2019, 02:13:09 PM
Sales are sales and there is always a new one. But. This kinda made my jaw drop a little so I thought I'd share..

WD Elements 10TB USB 3.0 Desktop Hard Drive.... For 150 clams... 150! 10 tb.. WD... Reputable reseller...

wow..

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on May 22, 2019, 04:37:26 PM
Well, it's on again..

Windows 7 support ending, I had a scary login of scrolling letters and numbers on a black screen ~ a week ago and no problems since (whew), STO is removing their 32-bit client... and, well, some key pricing seems way better now than it did on the last Cyber Monday - it seems like a decent time to buy as far as price and performance goes.

So.

Yeah.

I'm looking at setting up a new build again. If anyone has any revelations since last Novemberish.. my eyes and ears are open. Again. Hopefully I'll finally get it over with, this time.

16 gig of memory has gone down significantly and I'll likely be going that route. Ryzen 5's and GTX 1060's look more attainable too, but, I haven't priced how much lower the Ryzen 3's and GTX 1050s are, now - they may still tickle my savingsbone (and seem plenty good enough for me, anyway..). SSD Drives seem to have dropped in price and raised in capacity... Motherboards are not looking much different (edit: except there seems to be less complaints about BIOS, in general, and, complaints about installing Windows onto an SSD?). My case went up a few dollars (off sale) but still looks good. Windows is still nearly the most expensive component on the list and not gone down a bit - which, if they truly believe it will never get upgraded past version 10 (I.E. we don't have to buy it ever again) - seems perfectly reasonable, I guess.

External USB drives seem to be the simplest way to backup TB's of data, and, transfer TB's of data, which, I'll be wanting to do. Thinking about getting one of those, too.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on May 25, 2019, 10:14:57 PM
It looks like PCIE gen3 m.2 is the fastest SSD out there, atm. The pricing seems pretty reasonable.

I'm thinking to get a fast, but smallll, boot SSD. Whatever's cheapest and reliable looking that's fast. A $50ish drive.. Then, a 1 - 2 TB gaming drive.. And, as large of an external USB drive as I can get for the money (under $100) with which to store things that I don't care how fast they are accessed, and, with which to transfer stuff from the old PC.

I'm gonna get Win10 Retail on USB....

The case is picked out.

The 630 watt PSU I picked out last November should still be fine..

I've got to comb through motherboards again.......

Definitely 16 gigs of memory - PC3000 or (likely) higher.

Processor.... a Ryzen 3 or better. It all depends on what my grand total is, and, what sales are going on at the time of purchase..

Video... a GTX 1050 is more than ample to do the job but my greed for speed and whatever is currently on sale may make me look at a 1060 or even a 1650(? I think it was).

Bottoms line, is, I would like to keep it under $900, delivered. And with a no hassle version of Windows, a good case, a solid motherboard, as fast of a game drive as I can get for a 'good' price (it seems like a good time to buy atm as long as you're OK with 2 TB or less) along with the 2 other drives I mentioned, as fast a processor as I can get, but, really, a Ryzen 3 would satisfy me, and, the fastest 16 gigs of memory I can get for under $100 (something in the PC3000+ range). And a reliable (certifiably so) PSU with enough PS for 50 bucks or less.

And some fries...a large coke...and chocolate shake, plx  : )

I'll see if I can't come up with a more detailed wishlist.

Just putting thoughts to paper and fishing more for any inspiration... There do seem to be more options, now, than when I was looking just 6 months ago.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on May 26, 2019, 10:36:58 PM
Quote
Grand Total: $900.15

Wellll, how is that for coming close to my bottom line price of $900 delivered...?

For that price I end up with a very nice looking ($120..) gaming motherboard complete with nice looking wi-fi and audio, from Gigabyte, and, a very nice looking GTX 1660 from the same people. That's the combo I use now, too - GB mb and video.

I skimped on processors a little and for < a measly (for a modernish processor!) $65 decided to toss in a Ryzen 3

Memory is G. Skill "Ripjaws" PC 28800.. Good company and the price was there, nice speed.

The drives are where I saved some money but I also kinda went the Hinky route.. I'm going to be able to transfer data very easily and without spending hardly anything for a crummy USB 2.0/3.0 port device by using a $20 128 gig thumb drive. And, I'm going to get a super fast boot/game drive - very high benchmark rated Pcie m.2... but... I'm not going to have a dedicated game drive (do I really need one for CoH - STO - CO in this kind of rig??), and, I won't be able to transfer all my video - so - if I want to still view it then I need to either keep this PC going, or, eventually get another drive. It won't have to be a very large drive, either - maybe 500 gb.

Anyway... I thought it was cute how close I came to my price and yet still didn't hardly compromise (Only on the processor and storage - storage is pretty easy to fix and I'm thinking that the processor isn't going to matter due to I don't play anything very new and can't see how I'd have the time to even if I wanted to play anything from this decade..).

Here's a benchie! (they didn't have ripjaws ddr4 3600 so I took the 3200, which, is a lil slower but pretty close. ). Not too shlabby.

Userbenchmark PC Build Comparison (https://www.userbenchmark.com/PCBuilder/Custom/S86124-M441832.747111.517228.89324vsS0-M)

Baseline Bench: Game 81%         Desk 102%      Work 61%
                **Aircraft Carrier**     **UFO**      **Destroyer**

CPU: AMD Ryzen 3 2200G (https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/441832/AMD-Ryzen-3-2200G-with-Radeon-Vega-Graphics) $84
GPU: Nvidia GTX 1660 (https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Nvidia-GTX-1660/Rating/4038) $210
SSD: Mushkin Pilot NVMe PCIe M.2 500GB (https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/517228/MKNSSDPL500GB-D8) $73
RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws V DDR4 3200 C16 2x8GB (https://ram.userbenchmark.com/SpeedTest/89324/GSKILL-F4-3200C16-8GVKB-2x8GB) $86
MBD: Gigabyte X470 AORUS ULTRA GAMING (https://www.userbenchmark.com/System/Gigabyte-GA-X470-AORUS-ULTRA-GAMING-CF/86124) $110
Total: $563

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 04, 2019, 08:00:54 PM
Oh this is getting exciting..

$882 Delivered!

And that's with all the goodies (same stuff as above, too). Except that there's only 1 500 gig SSD drive....(I wanted a dedicated Game SSD, but, that will probably have to wait)) and big thumb drive to cheaply transfer crappy USB 2.0 data. I just can't see spending money on USB 3.0/2.0 - but, I don't want to have to have both PCs running and use a data cable (saving me like $3..), either, sooooo, this is the compromise.

I could save money on video and probably still be very happy, but, I'm probably not going to. I'm thinking to keep an eye on processor sales, too. More Moar, ya know. I'm kinda in a time crunch with wanting to build a new PC before 7/18, otherwise, I'd just watch the daily sales and start picking off things from my wish list one at a time.

I'll sure be glad when this is over! In so many ways..
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 16, 2019, 11:48:27 PM
Well, we went from Exiting, to, man I have to get this done..

I've got my plastic all loaded up and ready to be discharged.. Now it's just a matter of finalizing my choices and placing the order.

I'm placing a Heads-Up, here, in case anyone wants to offer any last minute advice. I plan to post what I plan to order, before I order, in case anyone can find any Red Flags or has any last minute suggestions.

It's been so long since I built a PC, and, I have no contact whatsoever with any PC users. I do come here, a lot, though... so... I'm picking brains, here. I'll have a Wish List posted...soon.

I'm in the market for a new mouse, too, now... Mine died this morning as I was logging in to order PC parts.. It did so in a way that it even made problems going into BIOS settings. It wigged Windows out. I thought something on my Mainboard was going kaput, but, then, I finally figured out it was 'just' the (newest part on my PC, by FAR!) mouse.. I keep dropping the dang things on my wooden floor.. And they always fall butter-side down (buttons to the floor..). It's especially frustrating for someone as Cheap as I am, who gets sickened by Waste that I can't really, presently, Afford..

Anyway! Final Wish List(s) coming today or tomorrow. Actually, you can view the one below for starters. I probably won't stray from that build unless I spot something similar/better for the same price/cheaper. I *think* they won't let you make a build on that website with parts that aren't rated to work with each other.

I have to say that this is by *far* my most overdue/stressful PC build, ever. I will be *so* glad when it is done - and I'm online - AND I can still get into my online mail and etc.. Some places like to bind to the PC you normally log into. I had serious problems keeping my 30 year old online e-mail account from hackers not so long ago and sure am not looking forward to trying to log in on another PC due to I hope that the 30-mile long password I have for it, that is like the 3rd 30 mile long password I had to make when recovering the account, is recorded properly! I also hope they don't tie my old Outlook account to my old Windows (AND) pc.. I've nearly lost that account recently and it was a bitch proving it was mine even though I'd been logging in to the account on the same PC for well over a decade.

Screw Windows validation problems, I'm getting a Full Retail Version on USB drive, delivered. The last couple of versions of Windows I had were just a pain in the ass. Vista was OEM, and this version 7 is an Educational copy. I just hope that Outlook and some of my other online accounts don't give me problems when I log in with a totally new Windows and totally new PC.

Stress stress stress.. I'll be *so* glad when this is Over and things are all back to 'normal'!

Thanks so much for all the input, here! Like I said, I have no input, at all, where I am. And it's been since ~ 2005 or 2006 since I built a new PC. I think I've finally researched everything to death! I feel fairly comfortable with my decisions. But, I would sure appreciate being graded/reality checked. If I end up wanting to order anything different than what is in the build list, below, I'll post it (should be) today or tomorrow.

I really want to get this thing ordered within the next couple of weeks, finally..
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 17, 2019, 12:00:03 AM
As promised, a Wish List..

I haven't combed through it for better options in a couple of weeks but I am doing so, now. I *think* all these things plug in together and go vroom!

https://secure.newegg.com/Wishlist/PublicWishlistDetail?ID=7089977

~~~

Yay!

Amazon has Logitech MMO Mice (like the one that just died on me that I want to replace) for 30 bucks! They're ~ 60 on Newegg and 50 wasn't uncommon  as a common price a year or so ago when I got the one I have now. I'm a little leery to buy another one after wearing my last one out so fast ... but $30 makes the decision less.. traumatic. (ha). Which is good due to I don't really have any good alternative and am not in shopping mode - am in Buying mode. I did exhaustive (you know me!) research on mice when I got the MMO and there doesn't seem to be anything any better out there, for me. Too bad they haven't come up with a cordless version of it by now! hate cords. *All* cords.

Anyway, yay  : ) When I saw them for 60 bucks on Newegg my heart sunk. Mine can't even be 2 years old. And I was like "the price went UP...?"

A cordless laser from Logitech is tempting and those things are built to last, but.. I'm sick of shopping, the lasers are probably still $60+, and 30 bucks/20 buttons/just get it over with sounds good.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 17, 2019, 11:32:31 PM
These sales! Dammit.. I keep missing sales, every day, on stuff I have in my wishlist~!

*sigh*

: )

So...

https://secure.newegg.com/Wishlist/PublicWishlistDetail?ID=7089977

I really don't like abandoning my longstanding philosophy of: it's better to put the OS and Game on their own drive.. But.. When I first developed the philosophy.. we didn't have drives made from MEMORY.. Also, this is such a huge upgrade for me, that, any performance degradation from having everything on 1 drive... should not be noticeable.

Another thing about drives.. As I understand it, I can't run 2 of the fastest SSD drives at the same time. As I understand it I can only run 1 (M.2) Pcie gen 3 at... (Pcie) x4.

So.. given all that... I decided to stick with 1 drive for the foreseeable future.. Since I'm gonna do that, I may as well get at least 1 TB and it of course will run via the fastest interface, above. So, I upgraded to 1TB from 500gig.

Another change, is, I decided to get what *appears* to be a really nice PSU that as a small bonus provides 20 more watts than my previous choice. It costs a little more but the reviews are so solid on Corsair, and, it's got a very nice efficiency rating and warranty, that, I decided to try a 'nice' PSU.

I stuck with the CPU.. The higher tier Ryzens just aren't doing it for me. I mean.. The Ryzen 3 is so damn cheap! Well, and, get this, you can't use any faster memory with a Ryzen 5 at twice the price.. So. Yeah. It's the bottom of the barrel Ryzen, but, I see no reason to go higher.

I lowered my memory speed.. The Ryzen 3 (and 5) don't directly support the speed of the memory I had previously chosen. So, I should see no loss in performance, and, I might gain some stability and I paid for the nicer PSU with the saved dollars..

My video card is on sale! If I buy it in a few hours.. So I probably should.. I need a shopping break, though..

I still like my motherboard choice - I like the 40 bucks I save on Wi-Fi, that, I can put into a nice board - like this one.

I was too tired to shop for cases....again..

SO!

The above is my latest. I changed my mind on Mouse, too. I'm not gonna get another MMO mouse. I'm gonna get the newest version of my last beloved Logitech cordless laser gaming mouse that is now at a beloved half price.. It has almost half the buttons of the MMO but more *usable* ones. The thumbies are also far superior (way easier to find and use), and, this model seems more rugged than the MMO. The MMO was definitely worth trying. I mean, how can you not want to try a 20 button mouse named MMO....? They are a good price when on sale, too.

I keep having this vision of having problems with my first SSD.. I think I have all the right parts, though..
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on June 18, 2019, 12:27:49 AM
These sales! Dammit.. I keep missing sales, every day, on stuff I have in my wishlist~!

*sigh*

: )

So...

https://secure.newegg.com/Wishlist/PublicWishlistDetail?ID=7089977

I really don't like abandoning my longstanding philosophy of: it's better to put the OS and Game on their own drive.. But.. When I first developed the philosophy.. we didn't have drives made from MEMORY.. Also, this is such a huge upgrade for me, that, any performance degradation from having everything on 1 drive... should not be noticeable.

Another thing about drives.. As I understand it, I can't run 2 of the fastest SSD drives at the same time. As I understand it I can only run 1 (M.2) Pcie gen 3 at... (Pcie) x4.

So.. given all that... I decided to stick with 1 drive for the foreseeable future.. Since I'm gonna do that, I may as well get at least 1 TB and it of course will run via the fastest interface, above. So, I upgraded to 1TB from 500gig.

You can have as many M.2 slots as your motherboard's expansion cards will allow (https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100168119&ActiveSearchResult=True&SrchInDesc=M%2E2).  Speed limits will be governed by the Motherboard used, of course, but because you only have 1 M.2 slot (or none) doesn't mean you can't add one on.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 18, 2019, 02:22:22 AM
Awww man, I was so close to finally ordering..... and 2 of the main things I wanted... Sold Out!!!

*exhale*

You can have as many M.2 slots as your motherboard's expansion cards will allow (https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100168119&ActiveSearchResult=True&SrchInDesc=M%2E2).  Speed limits will be governed by the Motherboard used, of course, but because you only have 1 M.2 slot (or none) doesn't mean you can't add one on.

Oh yay, more reading.

(ha : )

Thanks for reminding me of these. I sifted through the link, some... I couldn't find what I would use, but, I didn't scour the page..

Here's my motherboard..

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#sp

If you scroll down a little, there's expansion slot info and storage interface info.

Natively, without expansion cards, the motherboard (if I understand correctly) supports a M.2 pcie3 x4 SSD - which, if I understand correctly, is, currently the fastest SSD interface. It has another slot that supports, what I assume to be the second fastest SSD interface - M.2 pcie3 x2..

Assuming my assumptions are correct. What I could do, is, get the cheapest x2 SSD from a reliable company as my OS drive.. (already found one for $30) and then put my games on the faster x4.. this way I have a second drive for Windows pagefileing, I keep game and OS disk access separate, and, I'm using the 2 fastest interfaces available on the motherboard....without using an adapter card such as from your link.

I updated my Wish list to show what I mean. The Wish list with 2 Sold Out items..  : / One was the video card I was definitely going to buy today since it is the one I want, and is on sale! Argh..

Thanks for piping in TQ! Sucky timing. Too much other stuff to do this time of year but due to this, that, and the other, I really need to get this over with. Thanks for checking up on me. Glad I don't have any gaping errors in my tentative build.

If I get a 240 gig boot x2 SSD and a 1 TB x4 SSD, that should take care of my storage needs for a good, long, time. Matter of fact, if I'm going to get 2 drives instead of 1.. I could save the money that the 240 gig costs.. by getting a 500 gig x4.. I mean, I don't have anywhere near 500 gig of games and don't plan to any time soon.. if I need to add-on storage for things like my video - I can add a (whatever) drive....whenever. Meanwhile, I do have the old PC and the USB drive in this wish list for such things.

I guess the main question at this point, then, is... 2 drives or 1? (1) 1 TB x4 SSD... or... (1) 500 gig x4 SSD plus a 240 gig x2 SSD for about the same price (a little less).

Otherwise......... I feel fairly comfortable with this list. The new interfaces and slots are a little confusing but I think all this stuff should work very well together. I updated the Wish List with that boot drive btw and it still has the 1 TB x4 in it.

https://secure.newegg.com/Wishlist/PublicWishlistDetail?ID=7089977


Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 18, 2019, 08:48:58 PM
I'm back for another round!

..

: )

Something to add about the 20 button Logitech MMO mouse - that cord, will, kink on you eventually. I've seen it in other reviews, and it happened to me right off. They have this cloth sheath thing covering the normal plastic cord - and that thing eventually strangles the plastic cord into a bunch. Keep your eyes open for MMO II, though. I mean, Logitech is always improving their stuff and that is a model worthy of further development.

My video card is back in stock but 10 bucks more, today. I'm going to have to pay more than I want for memory, too. I ended up re-shopping for cases again, yesterday... So now, I've re-re-re-re-re-shopped...everything.

Of the things on my wish list I think 2 of the biggest luxury items, for me, are the motherboard and power supply. I never get a fancy psu (which now seems like a thing not to skimp on too much..) and that motherboard is a tier above what I normally get. After mothering my first PC to make it to ancientness... I look at it and think that these are 2 of the components that would have served it best over the years. *shrug*

Anyway. yay. back to shopping til I Puke.. I used to really enjoy this process. Maybe it's just bad timing. It sure will be great to be able to do a lot of things that got whittled away on this PC. I can wake up to Lost in Space again! Re-install Windows whenever I want........ I used to install a clean Windows no less than once every year or two, max. I can install new video drivers! I won't get Launcher messages telling me that I can't play STO anymore, soon... I won't have Windows 7 support going away looming over me.. A modern video card..........! Oh joy, oh bliss. I should be dancing around but, yeah, I just wanna get it over with. Solve the mystery, of, can I still get into my ancient Internet accounts and did I pick the right parts... Stop playing rounds of How Many More Times Will She Boot and be Useful.

ha  : )

I can't bear to take this thing apart, tho. I mean sheesh - it's served me well.

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 18, 2019, 10:19:35 PM
Well, I've managed to keep the 1tb ssd and still get a boot ssd, and, after realizing I could use a USB 3.1 flash drive in a USB 2.0 port, I ended up with a lot more attractive flash drive (much better company, and, it's USB 3.1..). I got the better PSU... and I'm still squeeking in below budget.

I'm sure there must be cables or a M.2 screw or something else to whittle away my pennies, but, I'm getting close! I may actually even order....today! Finally.. Maybe.. lol. It's hard to let the green slip from my steely grip. Saving is way more fun than spending, lately.

The wishlist above is updated for anyone keeping score.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 19, 2019, 01:27:52 AM
Ok Opinion Time!

I have narrowed my choice of cases to 3.. Price isn't the main concern (even the 'expensive' choice in this bunch is under $70), but, the one *I* like does happen to be the most expensive one.

In order of which one I like best *so far*:
This is a Cooler Master. It's the most expensive choice. The main thing I like about this case? It's the only one I've found that not only has a mesh front and back and top and left side... it has mesh on the right side, under where the motherboard sits. This, to me, seems a very, very, good place to have ventilation and no one else seems to have it.

https://www.newegg.com/midnight-black-cooler-master-n-series-atx-mid-tower/p/N82E16811119277

The next two choices are tied with each other. I may like this one slightly better mainly due to it's slightly larger and looks slightly nicer overall. It has everything the first choice has, basically, except that it has no motherboard side ventilation.

https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16811853003


This one is very similar to the previous one. I think it may have better front ventilation due to I think the (unneeded by me) drive bays aren't obstructions like they are on the DeepCool.. It's damn cheap! $36.. but it got solid reviews and, again, it's hard to choose between it and the DeepCool based on features and reviews. They both seem very similar except that the DeepCool has like 600 more reviews.

https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16811553030


Again, price isn't the big thing, but.... the top choice is nearly double the price of the bottom one, and, all three of these cases seem really similar.

I'm leaning towards the Cooler Master just due to that bonus motherboard cooling vent on top of it having everything else I seem to want/need. The dimensions on all of them are very similar and they all look similarly easy to work in. They all have similar reviews and look similarly well built in spite of the price differences.

Opinion...? Which one do you like? Why??

I think I'm not going to make a decision today. One (hopefully) more night to sleep on things..

~~~

After looking at these three again for the billionth time, I think I actually like the cheapest one better than the DeepCool. Just look at those missing front drive bays on the Cougar.. And then look at the ones obstructing airflow and holding in heat on the DeepCool... Well, and, on the CoolerMaster, too...

The cheapest choice may well be the best one. I think it depends on how much I like that Coolermaster motherboard vent vs. would it actually be useful to ditch the drive bays.. I'm not thinking of anything I need drive bays for, right now...

So now we have only 1 model with a motherboard vent and only 1 model with no obstructing drive bays... and, the other case. : )

I'm very interested to hear any opinions on this due to I may be overlooking something.

~~~

I just noticed that the mesh on the Cougar isn't nearly as meshy on the inside of the case as the other two alternatives, above... If it weren't for that, I think I'd get the Cougar just due to it's got way more space to work in and for air to get around in without the drive bays.

With SSD's and Thumb Drives (who needs to burn a cd/dvd anymore..) I don't understand why cases are still so drive cage dominated.. Drive bays look archaic, to me... I mean, fine, if you must still include them, make them ..... removable, huh? Right?? Metal holds in heat, and, unneeded bays are more than likely going to restrict airflow to some degree.. Heat has to be the number 1 degrader of performance and longevity.. Those drive bays take up a lot of room, too! I mean look at how much of the case is dominated by them and you may not even need them!

So now it's down to the CoolerMaster and DeepCool...

CoolerMaster has the motherboard ventilation I like (hopefully this new-to-me design doesn't attract dust in a new-to-me destructive area...) and... take a look at the drive bays. They are wide open to allow for airflow through the front panel.

Now, take a look at the DeepCool drive bays that sit behind that nice mesh front plate...

So, yeah.. (most expensive one, of course..) CoolerMaster is my current top choice. Matter of fact, it looks like about the best case I saw at any price. It's handy that it comes with a front and back fan. I want a top exhaust fan, but, I have to look and see what it'll sit on top of on the motherboard. I don't want a side fan blowing air (and whatever else slips through the mesh) onto the motherboard. I never liked blowing air directly on the motherboard - I'd much rather suck heat *away* from it than blow cool on to it (and in to opposing CPU/GPU fans..).

Anyway, looks like the CoolerMaster is gonna win.. it's a little pricey for me (I usually cheap out on cases..), but, barely, and, seems the way to go.

I'm still open to opinions  : D
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 19, 2019, 04:47:42 PM
Newegg has one of the best search engines for stuff they sell, but, it's far from perfect.

I turned off some search filters and found this Gem!

https://www.newegg.com/black-cooler-master-masterbox-q500l-atx-mid-tower/p/N82E16811119370?reviews=all

Now. With my motherboard, this is how things should work out.. First off, see where they put the PSU, vertically? I do this exact same thing now.. and I have an open top, like this case does. What that does, is, isolate the PSU and allow it to cool itself without heating up the whole case. Bottom mounted PSUs seem to be popular right now, but, I prefer what they did here.

Second.. My video card will plug in directly under that back fan.. With its fan facing downwards towards the elevated bottom mesh... it will suck the coolest air in the case (the bottom air where nothing is making heat) and have its radiant heat exhausted out the back..

Next heat maker: CPU. the CPU sits under an open wire mesh top and has a fan behind it to suck whatever radiant heat doesn't go out the top, out of the back..

Look at that deep recess in the back where the removable back panel is (where the motherboard installs).. It's bracketed on both sides with breathable mesh..

Virtually the entire front, back, top, and *bottom* is mesh.. According to the specs a fan can not only go in the back and top, but, on the bottom. Specs say you can't have a fan up front but the pictures tell me otherwise.. I'm not too concerned about a front fan due to I'd rather the inflow of air be predominately from the bottom and pushing up and back, out of the case. Let the PSU take care of itself and let the heat from it, go up, instead of being dragged across the case..

Very smart looking case! Wide open.. I was a little put off by the non-ventilated door... but.. that's where most of my dust blows in from, now, and, it *can* be left open a crack or completely removed, as I have done with the case I have now.

I mean, it's hard to make a perfect case. There's all kinds of things making heat and it all has to plug in together and play nice. Bigger is not always better, either - I've had problems getting cables to stretch with Full Tower cases, and, they're more expensive and the extra space would go unused in my case. You don't want a tiny case, either, where things physically won't fit.. This mid tower seems to fit the bill, sizewise, nicely. The design of this case appears to be an improvement on my ... modded case, that, has done quite well at dispersing heat. My ugly/unneeded drive bays are gone.. For the size of case that it is, there seems to be about the maximum amount of space to work in.. There was only 1 review on Newegg for this model (5 eggs! you have to be careful checking reviews, there - often the reviews you are reading are for the same manufacturer....but for a DIFFERENT model.. blah..) and he had a full ATX like I'll be getting and had no problems installing it, as I can imagine.


Anyway, I submit to you.. The CoolerMASTER.... MASTERBox.... *kawhips the cold*

https://www.newegg.com/black-cooler-master-masterbox-q500l-atx-mid-tower/p/N82E16811119370?reviews=all

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 19, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
4 x USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports
ŠŠ
1 x USB Type-C™ port, with USB 3.1 Gen 2 support
ŠŠ
1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-A port

Wha? And do any of those work with USB 2.0?

USB has become a tad confusing. USB 3.0 got replaced by renamed to 3.1, and, USB 3.1 got renamed to 3.1 Gen 2. USB has a Type A and Type C connector now, also.

What does it all mean?

Your USB 2.0 stuff will still work, in any new USB flavor or Connector... This was the main thing, for me, due to I have to transfer data from USB 2.0 but still wanted the fastest thumb drive specification.

But wait, I thought there were 2 connectors...? Yeah.. Apparently the Type C connector is unkeyed. As a person that nearly always fails on a 50/50 chance (my first CO Nemesis is named 50/50...) I like Type C - Type C merely allows you to be able to plug in your Flash drive (or whatever) 'upside down' and it'll still work due to there is no 'upside down' anymore with Type C.

Oh and.. Newer specifications of USB are rated as being faster than old ones. Duh  : )

Semi-interesting.

Now that I know this semi-interesting info I am boggled as to why my fancy new motherboard comes with so many (4) Gen 1 USB ports and so few (2 - and only one is Type C for some reason) Gen 2..  I guess there's only so much traffic that can ride the bus lanes? That's what I attributed the fact of having only 1 M.2 Pcie x4 and the second port only being x2 to.

Anyway, I guess 2 gen 2 ports are enough.. the wifi is integrated so I don't have to sweat that, and, I've only got a flash drive and wireless mouse receiver to plug into the two USB 3.1 Gen 2's.

So. Now you're an updated expert on how to plug into USB and have an overview of what's out there and why.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 19, 2019, 09:04:40 PM
SSD drive interface naming conventions are way more confusing than USB!

You can figure that Pcie is going to be faster than SATA... you can figure that x4 (pcie) is faster than x2...

Now wth is a M.2 2280??

Can you believe, that the 2280... is simply the size....?

M.2 2280 = 22 x 80 mm

Myyyyy motherboard will support up to M.2 22110, which is, you guessed it... 22 x 110 mm

Sheesh. I just now figured that out! And I pass it on.... to you  : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 20, 2019, 02:45:38 AM
Holy gee whillikers...

I had to re-re-re-re-reshop cases... I didn't like the size or other things about my other choices and I didn't really want to spend over $100 for a Full Tower case. I mean, a good case is important, but, I just can't bring myself to do it! My crappy case worked fine (with some adjustments) for well over a decade, soooooo, I guess as long as stuff fits and there's decent airflow...

Anyway, here's what I will 99% sure end up with... I found a decent pic with it stuffed full of big things, like a full ATX, which, doesn't dominate this case at all like it does many mid-towers. It looks like it will be relatively easy and clean to build with, the price is acceptable, and the airflow/airflow options look(s) better than what I'm used to.

https://proclockers.com/reviews/computer-cases/cooler-master-masterbox-nr600-case-review/page/0/5

Now.... I finally think I have a bunch of quality parts that all will fit together very nicely without a lot of hassle and stay cool..

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeesh....

This is way easier to do if you do it more often than, like, once every decade+..

~~~~

One curious thing about today's cases. is, it's totally common to install a hard drive sandwiched into the 2 inches between the bottom of your motherboard and the bottom/back of your case. No way I'd do that. Lol nooooo way I'd stuff 4 hard drives underneath my motherboard and then seal them in with a metal plate... Very, very curious.

I'm gonna try and skip hard drives and optical drives from now on. I can't see any reason for me to use them. At best, I would get an external USB drive or something similarly simple if I just had to store a ton of data I didn't want to have on my tiny little onboard SSD's.. I have no need for optical drives anymore unless I have to install something that I can't download or get on a flash drive... and if I just have to get one... I bet they make an external USB or similarly simple one of those, too.

I just don't want that old, large, clunky tech *in* my PCs anymore. It feels like having a disk drive in there. It's like... why...
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 20, 2019, 05:53:24 PM
lol how odd. I can't share my wishlist anymore.. I was using/viewing the shared version due to I don't have to log in to see it, and, Newegg likes to log me out every 3 minutes.

When I try to view the shared version, now, it tells me that 'the owner has set it to private". Which, I have done exactly the opposite of..

How odd..

~~~

Well phooey... My Wishlist sharing privileges have been silently revoked!

Get this... I ditched my 128 gig flash drive and for $30 more.. ended up with a Western Dig 2 TB USB 3.1 drive on sale..

Wth is up with Seagate? Do they really suck so bad nowadays or is there some kinda negative marketing campaign going on out there..

When I was building machines for other people and myself it used to be that Seagate was the pr0h drive and Western Digital was a Home User drive that wasn't nearly as reliable. I have (2) 10+ year old Seagates powering my games and booting my current machine! Just as well as ever.

I kinda have overkill on storage, now.. But... Apparently these SSD's work better when they're empty and mine will be pretty empty now that I have the fat USB drive in my list. I could save $8 and lose 1TB of storage, but.. yeah. nah. 8 bucks for 1 TB is hard to pass up.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 20, 2019, 08:59:09 PM
So, if you look at this motherboard's specs..

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#sp

Can I not plug a m.2 pcie3 x2 SSD into this thing to boot with, and, a m.2 pcie3 x4 for my games...?

I mean, it sure looks like it to me, and I have them picked out already... but SSD's and these interfaces are new to me, sooooooo, thought I'd see of anyone sees any red flags...?

Sure looks like they'll not only plug in but they'll both be heatsinked.



I think I've finally exhausted all the current possibilities for what I want. What a ride. There's a lot of options, today! It really, really, really, helped when I started watching YouTubes of people building PC's in the cases I was considering. I got to see how all the modern stuff plugs in, and, how much space it took. It not only really, really, helped in picking out a case, but, it was great to see how things plug in and what size they all are and all that good stuff.

Any other last minute things anyone can think of...? I'm about to pull the trigger!
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on June 21, 2019, 01:15:40 AM
So, if you look at this motherboard's specs..

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/B450-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#sp

Can I not plug a m.2 pcie3 x2 SSD into this thing to boot with, and, a m.2 pcie3 x4 for my games...?

I mean, it sure looks like it to me, and I have them picked out already... but SSD's and these interfaces are new to me, sooooooo, thought I'd see of anyone sees any red flags...?

Sure looks like they'll not only plug in but they'll both be heatsinked.



I think I've finally exhausted all the current possibilities for what I want. What a ride. There's a lot of options, today! It really, really, really, helped when I started watching YouTubes of people building PC's in the cases I was considering. I got to see how all the modern stuff plugs in, and, how much space it took. It not only really, really, helped in picking out a case, but, it was great to see how things plug in and what size they all are and all that good stuff.

Any other last minute things anyone can think of...? I'm about to pull the trigger!

Looks alright.  Two M.2 slots, two M.2 drives.  PCI-Ex is made for backwards compatibility speed-wise, so two NVMe storage devices will be fine.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 21, 2019, 05:40:12 AM
Looks alright.  Two M.2 slots, two M.2 drives.  PCI-Ex is made for backwards compatibility speed-wise, so two NVMe storage devices will be fine.

My main concern is what slot I can boot with (very probably both...). It's been a little confusing due to someone posted, once, one place.. that you can only boot from the m.2 slot on this motherboard that is Pcie x4.  I think he was wrong because I've yet to find anyone else report the same thing.

That brings up another point - those two m.2 slots don't support the same Pcie SSDs.

Quote
1.1 x M.2 connector (Socket 3, M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 SATA and PCIe 3.0 x4/x2 SSD support) (M2A_SOCKET)
2.1 x M.2 connector (Socket 3, M key, type 2242/2260/2280 PCIe 3.0 x2 SSD support)(M2B_SOCKET)

One will support SATA and Pcie x4... the other will only support Pcie x2.

I'm buying a small, cheap (but great looking) Pcie x2 to put into the x2 slot and plan to boot with it. I'm buying a larger, not as cheap, Pcie x4 for use as a game drive. --- I just didn't want to have to have to use the big drive as a boot drive (or move a PCIE x4 SSD to a PCIE x2 slot...), if that *1* review I read was right.

As far as I can tell.... that reviewer was wrong. I should be able to boot from a (m.2 Pcie) x2 SSD, in the (m.2 Pcie) x2 slot (M2B_SOCKET)(, and, use the M2A_SOCKET to put a Pcie x4 SSD drive in for games). Right? But, these drives and interfaces are new to me, and, I had that *1* review say I was wrong, soooooo, I thought it wouldn't hurt to see if I got a red flag, here.

Hey! My wishlist got migrated to SystemBuilder...

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/d8vtP3

I also had to learn what HDMI 2.0 is........... (sheesh, more reading..) and order a hdmi-hdmi cable due to the new video card won't work with my old dvi-hdmi cable.. I checked to make sure I have M.2 screws and heatsinks.....! I checked to make sure my 3 pin case fans would plug into 4 pin connectors on the motherboard.. I checked to make sure my PSU has all the right plugs.. I checked to make sure everything will fit.... I should have all the standoffs and whatnot I need, with the case...

Am I forgetting anything....?

THANKS for checking in TQ!  : ) At least I know I don't have any gaping errors/feel way less like the Lone Ranger.

p.s.
I found that 2 TB WD external (USB 3.1) for 60 bucks..
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 22, 2019, 02:17:19 AM
I think I managed to get nearly every single toy I wanted, and, spend nearly every penny that I had (loaded onto my online-plastic) budgeted for myself.

If you're not from the States, this, is called: Being a Good American.

I not only ended up with what should be a pretty fast machine with more storage than I know what to do with and in formats that I couldn't be happier with (I even tossed a 64 gig usb 3.1 thumb drive in.. hey, it was 5 bucks, and I've wanted a new thumb drive for years..)... I ended up with something I never even considered - Bluetooth earbuds.. I *love* earbuds and I lub wireless, and, the thing was on deep sale, had great reviews, I am going to have Bluetooth on the motherboard....., and, I've been wanting new headphones for my PC for years. I have several uses for these things that I just couldn't do otherwise (Stealth Yoga!) and I like earbuds for their immersion factor. Anyway, yay : )

Oh hey, so now I'll be on wireless keyboard/mouse/sound. All w/rechargeable batteries. Oh bliss.

Hey, I only do this every 10 years or so, ya know! That's my excuse for splurging and I'm sticking with it.


Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 24, 2019, 07:24:34 PM
Well, I finally, finally, finally pulled the trigger. Can you believe it? I couldn't be happier with the parts I ordered (on paper anyway  : ).

There was a screwup in the order process due to me entering a digit incorrectly and I have yet to get shipping confirmation on half of my order from Saturday. There was a fatality in the incident: my battery charger (mouse/keyboard). I'm not touching anything to do with payments until I get whatever shows up, though, and, Amazon sells the same thing for the same price (I don't like the Newegg seller, anyway, I had a really bizarre incident with them once on the phone years ago...) and I can wait.

The processor (from OutletPC, who, was way faster than Newegg, who, went out of stock on my CPU and has been much slower communicating and shipping..) has shipped and so has the Case, Video Card, and Memory.

The rest is still in processing : /

I remember Newegg being way, way faster than this (It's well past noon on the west coast). But. Oh well. As long as it all shows up and in one piece I'll be happy...

Hey, here is a cool use for Bluetooth earbuds.. If you can get a set comfortable enough to sleep in.. (I sleep with earplugs sometimes) and then get your PC to turn on in the morning and wake you up to your favorite multimedia pumped into the earbuds.... That'd be a kinda interesting way to wake up, huh?  : ) Sure beats *WONK WONK WONK* or blaring music/ads. My computer already wakes me every day but I can't currently set it to load any movie or music when Windows loads due to I'm afraid the extra load (they really grind..) will grind what's left of my hard drives away. I used to have it boot up with a movie or Lost in Space episode in the mornings. Hope to again, soon  : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 25, 2019, 12:15:22 AM
Something interesting about the mouse I'm waiting on, is, I'm very happy to report that it ships with an extender cable for the wireless receiver. Ya know, a dongle. What's interesting, is, when I started a thread about what mouse to buy, awhile back, I was real definite on getting a wireless. When people complained about wireless reception being bad, I was like... take a dongle... and run the receiver, oh, 2 inches away from your mouse... are you still having problems? Due to, that's what I did and it works perfectly. I mean, if you can't get a good wireless connection from 2 inches away, just give up using a computer anyway.

And now they ship with them! The newest version of the Logitech gaming mouse I was replacing, that is.

Yup, wayyy ahead of my time *nod*

: )

Still well over half of my order unshipped and it's the end of the business day  : / Newegg neeeeever took nearly this long before.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 25, 2019, 01:01:30 AM
So I just got word back from Newegg. "Due to the volume.... of what you ordered there is a delay" and, the delayed stuff is coming from "another" warehouse.

Lol wha...?

Lawdy..

It's just parts for 1 PC and not even that fancy of one. I mean, they handle how many orders a day...?  And I ordered....Saturday - they didn't have time to prep? And they're like... one of the largest online retailers on the planet? They say on their webpage they have a '1 day' turnaround time and I can't ever remember not getting my stuff shipped from them the same day if I ordered early in the business day.

I'm not in that much of a hurry, don't get me wrong, (I just want to get the parts here and in one piece) but... really? One measly home PC is a voluminous order...? Really?? MY order? lol oh that's classic. I mean, um, *speechless*

/FLEX
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 25, 2019, 03:04:01 AM
Because I know how this is such an edge of the seat topic I just had to update with kudos to Newegg. They managed to put my 'voluminous' order through before sundown! (edit: had I remembered the very first order confirmation I got - they say 1-2 days for shipping.. I always get stuff from them the same day if I order early. I thought they had a 1 day policy, too... Well, and, I was wondering if the goofed payment had maybe not got ungoofed. oops! I feel bad for bugging their online CS, now.. who, was very helpful, and found out exactly what was going on with every part of my voluminous order.) I have tracking numbers for every part and cable..

Wtg Newegg! I'm glad I can say good things about them due to I've been buying PC stuff from them pretty much exclusively since 2005. Always had really good luck with them.

It looks like I'll likely be building this baby, this weekend.. Hurrah  : ) What a wait.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 25, 2019, 01:42:12 PM
Things always change, except, for the fact that things always change. My beloved Seagate has sooo much bad press out there.. Then, I didn't feel like I had the communication like I always had from Newegg, at first, and I thought, blah.. more change.

I did order on a weekend.. and they do have a 1-*2* day shipping promise... and they did just ship a ton of stuff to me, most of it getting here in 2 days.. for no/low cost shipping.

They put together a nice invoice that puts everything together and all should be here by the end of the week, most of it tomorrow.

Anyway, I didn't feel like I gave them a fair shake, so, there's their fair shake. I get Eggpoints to spend on more Newegg stuff, in 30 days, for the stuff I don't return, too, at the rate of 10%... which means, in 30 days, I get to spend $10...+ that I otherwise couldn't/wouldn't have. Maybe good time to get that charger.

*sets pom-poms down*
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 25, 2019, 07:53:13 PM
I saw this interview with Kurt Russell a long time ago and he said something about he'd just do a few pushups to buff up before his movies, until, he did a movie with Stallone.

I always think about this for some reason when it comes time to build a PC after it's been a long time. I just do enough pushups to get me through the next movie. It seemed like it took a metric f-ton of pushups to get through this movie, though.

Anyway. Things.... haven't fundamentally changed since 2009. There's a CPU plugged into a Motherboard that supports a certain type of Memory and needs a powerful enough Video Card and Power Supply to go vroom to my desire/budget. Oh, and there's storage.

It's still pretty much the same.

Except.

They moved the powersupply to the bottom of the case...

Airflow Cooling, while still far from perfect (what isn't), is obviously a more prominent feature than it's ever been, in, case design. Which, is a good thing. Now, figure out how to make my case out of ... ceramic or some other naturally cooling material instead of red glowing steel and flimsy plastic and we'll be gtg.

Hard drives aren't called hard drives anymore, many times, and I jumped right into the SSD bandwagon full feet forward with 2 gumstick drives that I already lub. No moving parts... No need for drive bays... They're heatsinked and sitting between 2 push/pull system fans. FAST... and plenty, plenty, big - especially after tossing in 2 TB of Western Dig USB 3.1 storage for 60 measly clams (It's a 2 TB PnP External!). And.. there's 64 gig more storage space on a USB 3.1 thumb/flash drive for clean boot drive images or whatever..

You do have to be aware of more Drive Interface information, today, than I can ever remember, by far. And I had an OG SCSI.. I mean.. There's a lot of options, today.. And all of them good, for someone. It's a good thing. I like storage and I like having lots of storage options.

You can do your own reading to edumicate yourself on that stuff. It's a journey. Watch some of the plentiful and good videos of people installing the newer drives if you never even saw them before (1 TB internal Gumstick drives..? wha?) and it takes a lot of the mystery out of that part of it. There's several different internal form factors, now, that are all very common and plentiful. And they all have max interface capacities of their own and there are plenty of very specific interface types.. The good news, is, if speed is important to you, but, you're not obsessed with it, everything is pretty much backwards compatible. So, as long as you get a drive with the right connector for your motherboard, the thing will work and be reasonably fast. Pretty much. And, further good news, if you *are* obsessed with speed, there *are* things to look for to get more speed without more/much more cash. Pretty much.

What is USB 3.1? USB 3.1 ('gen 1...........') is USB 3.0.
What is USB 3.0? Old packaging.
What is USB 3.1 ...... Gen 2? The new name for... USB 3.1 that was 3.1 before 3.0 became 3.1
What is USB 3.x c?  C is the physical plug/connector. Specifically, the plug is... unkeyed. That is, you can't plug in your USB connector upside down because there is no upside down anymore. There's still a sideways! But.. umm,, yeah... The C connector should have most of us covered, even me, when it comes to plugging in a USB cable or device.

The bottom line on USB, is, USB 3.1 Gen 2 is the fastest. USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type C, just means, you have the thing in the previous sentence, with, a connector that can't be plugged into upside down, due to it's keyless. Except for that you can.... still plug it in sideways by accident if you really try. But it's kinda flat, and, err.. umm. anyway  : ) It's VIRTUALLY keyless!

HDMI changed.. We have a 2.0, now.. I'm playing @1080p. This is for the ppl with the $500+++ video cards running hi-res monitors/tvs. So, yeah, I didn't have to mess with learning anything about it, beyond.... it's *backwards compatible*.

Video...? Umm. Video was pretty much the only thing that felt like it didn't change at all. Except the model numbers. Then again, my video isn't *that* old. Everything else is. I'm glad I squeaked in after the GTX 16xx series hit the market. Looking forward to playing with that. I had a horror moment the night my stuff had already shipped that I accidentally ordered a 10xx series due to my original order went out of stock and I had to re-order, and, the model numbers are new to me - I just had the 60 part in my head.. but, after leaping out of bed in a panic, and checking my order, I saw that all was well. (lol).

It seems like a fun time to build, actually. Lots of options. RGB has to be one of the most useless things I've ever seen. I mean, if you are a master builder or showing off a master build (1 PC out of 100), or, you're a .... DJ or something.. Something unusual.. Then.. *maybe*. And that's a big maybe. But to see it so mainstream. *boggle*
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 27, 2019, 03:06:36 PM
First, I misunderstood USB c connectors... They smaller than the normal ones. I dunno what you plug into them or why...

Well, everything except....the video card showed up yesterday. It's supposed to be here tomorrow.

No real surprises putting everything together, so far, except the USB C connector, and, I didn't realize that one of my motherboard m.2 pcie slots is a 2280 (only 80 mm long). Neither of these things caused any problems. So far, all of that research seems to be paying off.

I *luv* having a PnP 2 TB drive.. It's nearly as convenient as using a thumb/flash drive, but, it's way larger and Windows does not regard it as a removable drive (for some reason) like it does with flash drives. USB 2.0 speeds are ~ half the speed of my normal drives, and, completely acceptable. I already back up nearly everything I wanted to. The thing is the size of a Smartphone and didn't get hot even after hours of nonstop copying. No power cable, it just plugs into the USB port and works, like a thumb drive. Works fine in my ancient system and with USB 2.0.

The case is probably the nicest case I ever bought for myself by far. Cable management was great and there was ample room to work in, even with a full ATX motherboard. Great paintjob inside and out. No sharp edges. Everything fit and plugged in easy and it looks *great* with that b450 aorus pro sitting in it. Most everything is black/grey and looks tech sexah. Very minimalist looking system (especially compared to so many things I'd seen) and it does the minimalist thing well.

Anyway, so far so good! The video should be here tomorrow and then I can see if I plugged in everything properly and if it works... High hopes  : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 29, 2019, 06:49:11 AM
Wohoo! I'm back in the forums.. I've got no idea what my old password was... I guess I wrote it down wrong..

I'm back in alll my online accounts, now... and I even got 20+ gig STO installed without having to download more than ~ 50MBs.

Windows 10 was real easy to set up, but now, I dunno what it's doing. Windows Update said I was up to date after it downloaded like (some gauge somewhere told me..) 2 gig+.. But I'm still on version/build/whatever-they-call-it 1809.. Which, as I understand it, is 1 version/build back.

I've got NVidia drivers installed but they're installed by Windows. I downloaded and tried to install the latest version from Nvidia but the installation said I had the wrong version of Windows... So I dunno what's going on, there, either.

I still haven't braved Logitech Gaming Software, yet. Maybe it works better in 10 than it did in Windows 7..

The first thing I did when Windows came up was to get the Bluetooth earbuds going.. hehe.. It was easy! And they're great.. Getting online was easy.. Getting into my accounts was easy.. The new machine booted up, first try. I loaded Optimized Settings in BIOS and then began to tweak things like CPU Fan Off warnings, and, Boot Drive Priorities, Saved and Exited, and Windows started installing from the flash drive... Afterwards, I ditched Edge, plugged the wireless modem in, and was online in seconds.. Windows Activation happened at some point after that.

Not a single hiccup or problem so far except that I miss Windows Aero (the transparent toolbars in windows theme thingy). I found out how to turn on Transparencies... but I can't tell you what they're turned on, for.. I found out how to change the *color* of toolbars.. but, that's about it. They look crappy/old un-transparent..

I turned off Edge and went to IE just because I heard bad things about Edge. I also heard that Edge was hard to turn off and then to get IE to work, but, I had no problems at all doing that. I might try Edge. One thing I like about IE is you can block a lot of streaming video and images while surfing. *shrug* whatever.

It feels weird leaving the old PC off..... That thing's been waking me up since 2009.. I didn't have the heart to take it apart or even move it. Besides, I'm sure I forgot to drag some things off of it.

Found a great stand for the new PC that has totally ventilated shelves. I would definitely use the Coolermaster NR600 case again. I'd definitely buy all of it again. Every single part, right down to the earbuds. This has to be my most gorgeous and hiccup free build, ever (jinx!) so far. Or.. I'd have just bought Windows 10 and that 2 TB USB drive.. It wouldn't have been a horrible option and ~ 5x cheaper. If you could stand the load times, the old PC does what I want to do, comparably to this machine. STO looks a little better on the new PC, videos look a little better on the old PC and so does IE - that'd probably go away with the Windows 10 upgrade, though.

I wouldn't have built this machine any differently with the parts I had available. I haven't had a smoother or more gorgeous hardware install (even the...…...rgb is...nice (I turned it off after checking it out..).). I haven't had a smoother transition into being online from 1 PC to another. I already have this PC ~ 75% similar to the old PC as far as how I use it which is good even for staying with the same version of Windows. I don't really like Windows 10 as compared to Windows 7 due to it feels bloated and I miss Aero BUT..oh yeah.. I did find one Windows 10 feature I really like, already... Color Settings/Choose Your Default App mode/DARK... Man, that is so much more pleasing to the eye than Blaring white screens with Black dot text.

Anyway, I thought I had Windows set to have to ask me for Updates. And then it went and did an update on its own, told me I was up to date, but I'm still on 1809.. Soo. Yeah. Have to figure that stuff out. I'm hoping the video driver wouldn't install due to my Windows build isn't new enough. Otherwise, I have no idea why it won't install. I'm pretty sure it said I have the 'wrong' version of Windows when the driver update failed. I dl'd the latest 64 bit version (430.86-desktop-win10-64bit-international-whql.exe), and, I'm for sure using 64-bit Windows *shrug*
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 29, 2019, 07:43:39 PM
I guess this is why my Windows version is "old" but yet Windows says I'm up to date and that my 'device' isn't 'ready' to update to *version* (not Build or anything else..) 1903 , yet...

Quote
Error attempting to update with external USB device or memory card attached
If you have an external USB device or SD memory card attached when installing Windows 10, version 1903, you may get an error message stating "This PC can't be upgraded to Windows 10." This is caused by inappropriate drive reassignment during installation.




Sample scenario: An update to Windows 10, version 1903 is attempted on a computer that has a thumb drive inserted into its USB port. Before the update, the thumb drive is mounted in the system as drive G based on the existing drive configuration. After the feature update is installed; however, the device is reassigned a different drive letter (e.g., drive H).




Note The drive reassignment is not limited to removable drives. Internal hard drives may also be affected.




To safeguard your update experience, we have applied a hold on devices with an external USB device or SD memory card attached from being offered Windows 10, version 1903 until this issue is resolved.




Affected platforms:
•Client: Windows 10, version 1903


Workaround: This issue has been partially resolved but to ensure seamless update experience, the safeguard hold is still in place. In the short term, we recommend you do the following workaround to update to Windows 10, version 1903. Remove all external media, such as USB devices and SD cards, from your computer and restart installation of the Windows 10, version 1903 feature update. The update should then proceed normally.




Note If you need to keep your external device, SD memory card, or other devices attached to your computer while updating, we recommend that you do not attempt to manually update to Windows 10, version 1903 using the Update now button or the Media Creation Tool until this issue has been resolved.

Man I'm glad I didn't get Windows 10 until now. I was always the first person to get a new Windows version, but, 7 is just good. It's a rock. It works, it doesn't break, and it runs everything well with a pleasurable interface. It doesn't try to stealth download, and, the updates are reasonably small. It's a hard version to beat. Just as I imagine that it's becoming difficult to make things like the wheel any fancier.

Are you sure there's no new versions coming..? Perhaps a Windows RGB....?

Really, don't we just want Windows to....run? If we want it to do anything else, we can install a program. Like, Star Trek Online or perhaps a bootleg City of Heroes...  : )

~~~

The new PC woke me up to some Lost in Space, this morning and has been playing video every since, > 8 hours. I tweaked something with video late last night... and now it probably looks as good or better as it did on the old PC. The Geforce 1660 is using ~ 7 watts of power and the fans for it have....never once come on. It never gets any hotter than 40c.. On the subject of fans.. Does AMD have a … size complex thing going on with the Ryzen? It's a tiny 65 watt chip with a huuuge cooler and it never goes much past 30c.. I can't tell if the 650 watt (it's a small semi-modular 80 plus Silver that weighs like a car battery..) PSU fan has ever come on. It's not supposed to unless the power supply reaches a load of ~ >280 watts. Iirc.... Pcie SSDs use the least amount of power of all 'hard drives', too, iirc. My case temps are very good... I forget the numbers and I have to go into BIOS to check them, but, every time I do, they are surprisingly low. I just now remembered I even forgot to take the mostly unneeded air filter off of the top mesh..

I would build this PC for someone else. It's luverly. It looks sexy (no green PCB inside .. everything is black/grey/Batman-looking with a few red accents and the case has a very nicely done, thick, black paintjob as well) and runs fast and cool and quiet.

Ah well, anyway. Even the blind chicken finds the corn, sometimes. Glad this chore is finally about over. Glad I didn't succumb to a buying pre-built. Glad the extra pushups paid off  : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on June 29, 2019, 09:01:35 PM
I guess this is why my Windows version is "old" but yet Windows says I'm up to date and that my 'device' isn't 'ready' to update to *version* (not Build or anything else..) 1903 , yet...

Man I'm glad I didn't get Windows 10 until now. I was always the first person to get a new Windows version, but, 7 is just good. It's a rock. It works, it doesn't break, and it runs everything well with a pleasurable interface. It doesn't try to stealth download, and, the updates are reasonably small. It's a hard version to beat. Just as I imagine that it's becoming difficult to make things like the wheel any fancier.

Are you sure there's no new versions coming..? Perhaps a Windows RGB....?

Really, don't we just want Windows to....run? If we want it to do anything else, we can install a program. Like, Star Trek Online or perhaps a bootleg City of Heroes...  : )

~~~

The new PC woke me up to some Lost in Space, this morning and has been playing video every since, > 8 hours. I tweaked something with video late last night... and now it probably looks as good or better as it did on the old PC. The Geforce 1660 is using ~ 7 watts of power and the fans for it have....never once come on. It never gets any hotter than 40c.. On the subject of fans.. Does AMD have a … size complex thing going on with the Ryzen? It's a tiny 65 watt chip with a huuuge cooler and it never goes much past 30c.. I can't tell if the 650 watt (it's a small semi-modular 80 plus Silver that weighs like a car battery..) PSU fan has ever come on. It's not supposed to unless the power supply reaches a load of ~ >280 watts. Iirc.... Pcie SSDs use the least amount of power of all 'hard drives', too, iirc. My case temps are very good... I forget the numbers and I have to go into BIOS to check them, but, every time I do, they are surprisingly low. I just now remembered I even forgot to take the mostly unneeded air filter off of the top mesh..

I would build this PC for someone else. It's luverly. It looks sexy (no green PCB inside .. everything is black/grey/Batman-looking with a few red accents and the case has a very nicely done, thick, black paintjob as well) and runs fast and cool and quiet.

Ah well, anyway. Even the blind chicken finds the corn, sometimes. Glad this chore is finally about over. Glad I didn't succumb to a buying pre-built. Glad the extra pushups paid off  : )

We've run into that issue with our Surface Tablets, where our Wi-Fi is hammered and there's only one USB port with not enough energy for a portable hub.  And we don't have the resources for powered hub for each device when there's 100 of them.

Our answer: make a USB install for the Windows May 2019 update, then copy all the contents of that USB into a temp folder (not saying name it "Temp", anything works, really) on the hard drive.  Run it from there.  Once the update is finished, delete the temp folder.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 30, 2019, 12:01:31 AM
That sounds like something I need to learn how to do because we now have 2 Windows 10 machines needing updates, here, and we're on a metered account.



I've ran into my first *annoying* Windows 10 bug already..

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/speakers-configuration-keeps-reverting-to-stereo/a1cc022c-b2f6-4fdd-8d67-f3b8f2eff039?page=2

I have this exact problem. The speakers will revert themselves back to Stereo from 5.1 Surround, and, often.

I can go in and tell Windows I have 5.1 speakers, save, go right back in and I'm set to Stereo. Or, maybe I'm still on 5.1 Surround. It never stays on 5.1 more than 3 re-checks. I don't even do anything but sit here and wait a few seconds and then re-run the Speaker Config until it reverts to Stereo - usually in 1 - 2 tries..

I'm usually in a program that supports 5.1 surround... so... this is kinda really annoying to be reverted back to stereo all the time.

Once a video is playing, and I set the speakers to Surround (if they aren't already, and they probably aren't) the sound seems to stay on 5.1, in, the video... But. If I go into sounds/playback tab and then select my speakers and then click "configure" - it may revert back to Stereo - and once it does, the video I'm watching reverts to stereo, too.. (setting it back to 5.1 seems to let me listen to 5.1 for the rest of the video as long as I don't go back into the configure screen).

It's annoying.

Surround can reset to Stereo without even going to configure it if I'm not watching a movie (or possibly in a game, haven't tried yet) - it just does it on its own. It *does* seem to stay on surround if I play a video and don't mess with anything during the playback. After I leave the video program I was watching the video in, Surround goes away whenever it wants, and always pretty fast.

I never noticed it until now because I was using the headphones! Steeeeeereo Headphones..

Ah well  : /

Hopefully they fixed this in 1903..

My workaround so far is just to re-re-re-re-set the speakers to 5.1 while I'm in my media player and watching a video. Hopefully that works in games, too.

~~

Another workaround, is... wear the headphones  : ) Windows Virtualization is good with these.

I wonder if having headphones has anything to do with it.. I've not had mine powered on.. but, they are installed. Can be, occasionally Windows looks for them and when not finding them, sets the sound to stereo anyway.

*shrug*

Bluetooth ftw in a small area. I have room fans and whatnot going and can do my lil chores with very nice sound. Wired quality for sure. I was thinking I had been shopping too long after I got them.. but now that I have'm, they're fun. Haven't ran into any battery/connection/volume issues yet and they're easy to wear and seem to charge pretty fast via USB cable.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 30, 2019, 06:44:55 AM
Annnd now my Bluetooth driver isn't working..

I had to practically force Windows 10 at gunpoint to install the latest Geforce drivers. Finally got that sorted and then I couldn't get the Logitech Gaming Software download from Logitech so I could assign keys to my buttons.. so I ended up downloading it elsewhere.. Finally got that, sorted, except, I can't set up any Game profiles - I have (1) and (1) profile only, for everything. Normally you can make a profile for each game.. Then, after I was happy enough with getting up to date with drivers... the Bluetooth cut out.. and back in.. and out.. I can't get my headphones to work, at all, anymore.

Honestly, at this point, Windows 10, to me, is a big steaming pile. I wasted so much time on it already and am at the point that I just want to start all over again. I had to make accounts with Nvidea and order Free software from Microsoft and then jump through some Microsoft hoops....just to get the damn video drivers to install. And then when they did install, I had no Control Panel to adjust the blaring ugly screen.. Which entailed more hoop jumping..

It's like Windows 10 just took a big steaming dump all over my nice new PC.

I'm not wasting hours on it again, tomorrow. If stuff works, great, if not, whatever.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on June 30, 2019, 01:56:29 PM
And now, today, my PC won't wake itself up.. Didn't turn itself on this morning and I can't get it to do it, now  : (

I'm really hoping my motherboard isn't crapping out at this point  : ( First the Bluetooth, now this.

Let me ask you something... This wouldn't be so damn painful if it weren't for all the downloads.. The biggest download comes when re-installing Windows, which looks like an ever looming possibility.. Is there a way I can get the latest update on one of my USB drives so that if I need to re-install Windows, I don't have to download the 2 gig or whatever of updates?

As soon as my bandwidth runs out it's game over.

Man I hope I don't have to swap this motherboard. I really took my time with this build and it's gorgeous. I'm not really looking forward to yanking the mainboard and starting all over, starting with waiting on shipping..


~~~~

Well... I got Bluetooth to work (I tried all kinds of things, this was the last) by *disabling* the device in Device Manager (uninstalling didn't work), and then, rebooting, and then, re-enabling. At that point all of my goodies came back up driverwise, there are no errors (so far....) and the headset is working beautifully/perfect again.

I still can't get BIOS to wake up this PC... It worked the first morning! But now it just sits there and won't wake itself up  : (

With the Bluetooth working again, the possibility that the problem is Not with the motherboard arises.. But why in the world would the PC stop using the Alarm function in BIOS to wake itself?? I get no LED errors on the motherboard, and, otherwise the system is running like a dream. No glitches, no problems at all except installing the video driver, which was a huge pita, and Logitech has something going on with their webpage during some transition they're in, so, I couldn't get my mouse software from them.

I reset the BIOS to Optimized settings.. Unplugged the PSU for awhile.. Replugged in, powered up and reset the alarm in BIOS, and this thing still won't wake itself up.

The hours I wasted on Bluetooth at least hopefully won't get added to, today  : / And I'm glad it's working again..

~~~~~

Sonofa…..

It was Windows 10, again.....!

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/what-prevents-power-on-by-rtc-alarm-from-working.2517333/

Power On in BIOS is functioning, again.. The PC can once again turn itself on via a daily alarm in BIOS...

How the hell the setting got changed and why disabling and enabling Bluetooth worked, when nothing else did including completely removing the drivers, is beyond me.

Techs must be in heaven since Windows 10. I wasted so many hours that some poor sap would have paid me for to spend on their machine.. Windows 10 performs like it just came out of BETA.

~~…~~

Well.... now that my bandwidth, that I share...….., isn't being sucked into Infinity...., and, I have all the Pertinent Drivers and Software Installed and Working Properly... and... I don't feel the looming doom of a complete system rebuild (with money I saved for years, dangit) from the motherboard, up...with all the rma'ing and cross-shipping and all that, and, having to dis-assemble this darn luverly assembly..

I have to once again say, much love to Bluetooth stereo earbuds.. It's a flawless wireless connection as long as I'm in range. I can leave the room to do some dishes, very nearby, and, not miss a beat with what I was watching/listening to. Can go feed the birdies outdoors... If I do go out of range then I lose signal and when I come back in range I get signal back. Speakers turn off when headphones are switched on, and turn back on when the headphones shut off or get out of range(? I'm asssuming).

I've always got something playing on my PC when I plan to be near it, so, yeah, pretty cool. Drowns out outside noise pretty well, too.

I thought the lil rubber curly things that go behind the earbud part that goes into my ear were a gimmick when I first saw the wireless earbuds (n00b!), but, now (after applying RTFM, which, I have uncharacteristically done throughout this entire process..) that I have an idea how they fit into the inside part of an ear ridge... I use them (tuck them in) and they really work to stabilize the buds in my ears so they're more comfy when moving around and doing stuff.

Anyway....

*breathe*

: )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on July 01, 2019, 04:24:52 AM
The gremlin attacks seem......to have subsided. The bombardment of bad news seems to have at least taken a break and tranquility seems to have once again taken over.

Having crucial (it changed how my BIOS behaved!) Windows settings change in the background without any form of notice whatsoever was highly annoying. It was also really annoying how I was forced to make accounts with Microsoft and Nvidia to not only get my video up to date, but, to be able to .. adjust it. I finally couldn't dodge Nvidia Experience, either.. And... at the end of it all   I Windows ended up downloading ~ 6 gig..

I rejoiced the ending of stress and timesinking by making my new-to-me Windows 10 UI highly attractive and functional, and, made my first stab at blocking stuff going on without me knowing about it.

I really liked my simple and highly functional Windows 7 theme. My Windows 10 theme has all of that and more, except... the title bars could be a little more Aero-ey, but, the alternative I came up with works pretty decent with the overall Windows 10 theme I came up with, soooo, I can let go of Aero easier.

I want to like Windows 10 but that mega-stealth background activity and device weirdness has gotta go.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Tahquitz on July 01, 2019, 03:36:47 PM
The Nvidia Experience isn't required.  You can cancel off of that and still install the driver.  (Forced registration is still a huge red flag to consumer advocacy groups.) I've never made an Nvidia account when it told me to sign in.

You can make a login without a Microsoft account too, but for home systems I'd recommend it.  Your Windows 10 activation for that system is linked to your Microsoft ID so if you lose your software key and need to reinstall on that computer, it'll reactivate without it after you log back in.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on July 01, 2019, 03:58:27 PM
The Nvidia Experience isn't required.  You can cancel off of that and still install the driver.

No, *you* can do that. I *used* to be able to do that.

I mean, I've been installing GeForce drivers ever since there have been GeForce drivers and never, ever, ever, ever, ever ever ever ever ever, once, have I ever installed Nvidia Experience.

Know why?

I didn't want to...

I didn't want to, this time, either, however, I exhausted every other possibility. I cannot manually install the driver software. I get an error that says something to the effect, of "You have the incorrect version of Windows". Yes, I am 100% sure I downloaded the correct drivers. They distro is named "430.86-desktop-win10-64bit-international-whql"

Windows 10 installed Nvidia drivers for me automatically during the installation process.. I could not manually update those drivers as I have done, many, many, times before.

SO finally I read all over the Internet about people having the exact same installation problems as me, and, their 1 and only solution was to install Nvidia Experience. I didn't want to do it but I was tired of screwing around and running out of options.

So..

I get Nvidia Experience downloaded and running and …. it hangs at the end of the Driver installation process. After it had already said it was 100% done.

At this point, I have the latest driver (GPU-Z confirms I finally have PhysX installed, too) but my screen has that way too Digitally Vibranced look (like it nearly always does after a new video driver install) and...…… I have no CONTROL PANEL... with which to adjust things. I mean, it is nowhere. I did a search for the .exe...

This is where I am forced to make the Microsoft account... to download Free Software... that is... the Nvidia(!) control panel... I saw nowhere else to get this 1 individual component of the Nvidia driver installation. I'm not saying it doesn't exist somewhere, because it sure seems like it ought to - like, say, on NVIDIA's site... but the only way I could find to get it at the time was to make a damn Microsoft Store account that I *surely* did not want to do.

So, basically, 2 things which I have successfully avoided, since..... *ever*…. I was not able to avoid if I wanted PhysX and an up to date driver from the manufacturer instead of the vanilla MS one...

It's not something I just did on a whim.

I was *forced* into it.

Otherwise, I had to either 1.) settle for crappy drivers and hope things magically sorted themselves, someday, or 2.) spend hours and hours more scouring the Internet for a solution to successfully do what I've done a hundred times before.

So I said Screw It. Lets get it over with. And I wasn't even sure it would work, until it worked, and it barely did work, and I'm just glad it hasn't glitched out, and, I plan to make a System Restore flash/thumb drive ASAP!

*breathe*

: )


Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on July 02, 2019, 01:37:33 PM
I'm kinda liking my storage strategy up to now..

I have a 1 TB Pcie x4 M.2 with just games, so, it's pretty empty - the emptier these things are, the better they perform, I read.. I've got a 120gig Pcie x2 m.2 that only has OS files and things that install into Windows on it - it boots and loads a video (off of the external USB drive) in the morning, in, < 1 minute (~ 45 seconds). And.... then, there's the 2 TB of USB storage that cost.. 60 bucks.. that everything else goes on.

Total Speed + ample storage (that's partly portable) from reputable manufacturers that will last into my foreseeable future, or as long as the drives do, whichever comes first, for just over $200.

~~~

Geez, I forgot the other driving factor for doing this!

I have no drives installed inside my PC.

I have 2 sticks of memory installed that are used for hard drives... but, there are no actual hard drives in this PC. No power cables for them.... no data cables for them... no modular cables to plug into the PSU, just leave them alllllllllll in the box...

It's a super clean install. Simplicity itself. There's no better airflow available. No less clutter. No less moving parts. It's just sexy. I feel modern.. again  : )


Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on July 03, 2019, 05:36:16 PM
As long as I don't have another experience like I did when I first installed Windows on a new machine then I'm prepared to say that, as with every other version of Windows, including ME.., I've been assimilated.

Everything looks and works even better than before.

The Start button, which, I thought had been completely ruined at first, is now not only funtional... it's *useful* *gasp* I didn't even use the Start Button menu in Windows 7 all that much due to the clutter. Now, I have like 6 things in my (left click..) Start Menu and they are all useful things. For example, all I have to do is hit Start and I see if any mail has come in (and Reminders, if I ever start using them again). And then I can load up a somewhat attractive and useful internet mail interface from right within Windows just by clicking on the Mail Notification I got in the Start menu.. I like this feature even more due to I never liked logging into my account online ever since it was one of the many that got hacked when hotmail merged with outlook - I kept waiting to get told, again, my password was wrong and then the hoops get set aflame for me to start jumping through so I can get my account back. Now I never have to login - Windows can do the wincing for me. I see my .... Internet Usage... Just by clicking Start. And I can get a useful breakdown of what used the data if I want. I can not only track my game play data usage, but, I can track the patcher and how much I've downloaded in game updates alone (kinda interesting). And, I can easily find other crucial apps such as the (ha) Calculator (well.... I do seem to use it a lot..).

Thanks to a Windows 10 setting I have way less blaring white screens with black text to read, which, I haven't been able to enjoy, since... before Windows.

I'm 64-bit.. I boot fast.. My video looks and sounds beautiful (now..) in both surround, and with headphones.. The Bluetooth, now that it's not being weird, is, fabulous.. Fantastical. Besides the glitch on that day that things decided to go wrong in Windows, Bluetooth is super simple to setup and use and it works. I use it all the time.

I installed the latest version of the Realtek (sound) software & drivers from my motherboard manufactuer and installed it. The driver was older than the Windows driver.. It didn't have as many features as the Windows driver and didn't work as well, either.. Windows let me Rollback to their driver and all is well again. *boggle* I mean, that's pretty good for Windows.

My desktop looks similar in theme as it did when I had Vista... I really liked that theme. Glad I can still arrange the taskbar like I like. Actually, my desktop looks almost exactly the same as it has since Vista was new.

I've heard nothing but horror stories about Windows 10. My dad is always fighting it, nonstop.. When I first installed it and I suddenly had crucial (hey, it changed how my BIOS operated!) Windows settings get changed in the background, and, had the Bluetooth problems pop up out of nowhere, and, got the 6 gig download bill for getting Windows installed... I thought I was going to be one of those people that wanted Windows off of their Lawn. But. So far, it looks like, as with every other previous version of Windows except the pile of poopie that was Windows 386, starting with the ever more functional Windows 3... 3.1.... 3.11..., I like all the newer Windows versions, better.

10 feels modern. Like 95 did. Like Vista did. It does have an ugly-@ss Start button, though.

Anyway *shrug* I just hope we don't go down that road we went down during the Installation, again. Otherwise, I should be a happy camper. As far as I can tell... not only is Windows not downloading anything on its own anymore, it's reporting to me what does create traffic. And all my devices feel rock solid.

Now I just need to download (2-4 gig..) version 1903...which....is now available to me.. I'm going to try and put it off until the end of the usage month.. I get throttled down to 100kbs when I hit the data limit..on my errr unlimited account. No big deal if the last day or two is throttled.. Games play fine with 100kbs - the load times just suck.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on July 04, 2019, 04:18:45 PM
Sooooo I was finishing up a session of STO last night and thought, hey, lets see how hot everything is..

The Video card wasn't even impressed enough (not by a longshot) to turn on a fan.. My guess is, the PSU wasn't, either.

So.. my games (the stress test) aren't even considered as a load to this system...

It's not winter, either, ya know! It's warm. And yeah, I know, I play old games, but still.. my PC reacted to my games like I was watching video (very low load)..

Anyway... had to gush some more... I haven't been happier with a new PC since 386's were new and SCSI's were hot. That's been more than a few PCs ago.

I really have to say thanks for your input, TQ! It honestly helped me out to have a sounding board. I saved that money for *years* and haven't had or built a new PC in awhile. So, yeah, it was a stressy process. Mucho Thankos for helping smooth things out. You should definitely get a Titan Star for this.

After (how old is this thread???) a year or so of debate and research...  this thread has finally, finally, finally been answered, and, the answer is good  : )
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on July 08, 2019, 02:25:57 PM
I just had to toss this in...

PC's been on for a couple of hours and playing video...

https://app.box.com/s/d9tr9voqefqkiu22loaz3hz2qbs6n1bd <~ (this is a new, crummy, Pic link, from Box...  : ( I miss direct links! That I had since, nearly, Box was alive.)

Not too shlabby...
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on August 09, 2019, 01:51:11 PM
Unless there is some reliability issue that I haven't learned about yet - don't Pcie SSDs feel like the future present?

Unless there is something I'm missing, or, I really want to store a ton of data cheap, or, have portability like I have with my (cheap, WD) 2tb external HDD,... I can't see myself buying internal HDD's or even internal SATA SSD's anymore.

Pcie SSD's do what I tried to do as a programmer with disk caching back before anyone knew what Windows was. Shove all the data into memory. Bypass the moving parts. They're also... tiny. The inside of my computer case looks like a museum/art piece - lots of more dust free than usual space filled up with pretty decals/paintjobs and lights under a glass lid. Kinda like a boxy PC version of the Robot's head in Lost in Space.

I really like what they're doing with today's PC's. Even the cases. I've never been happier with a computer case of my own or anyone else's. So far the stability's there, too. I used to crash STO daily and now, with the same game files and a new 64-bit client, I haven't crashed once in over a month. For example.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on August 17, 2019, 05:11:13 PM
We're well into summer and it's not *that* cool in my place from leaving the windows open last night. PC's been on since just over 5 hours.... check these temps..

https://app.box.com/s/uvwob2h2i37qs2gkn01de3vy7i46hfj2 (damn I miss direct links..)

Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on September 01, 2019, 05:57:05 PM
If you're in the market for a case... I still recommend this one, a lot.

http://us.coolermaster.com/product/Detail/case/MasterBox-Series/masterbox-nr600.html

We don't get rain here the entire summer, not once. It gets dusty. I've cleaned this case out....twice. And each time it looked like new afterwards. The mesh does a really great job of letting air through but not so much dust. You can feel the air getting sucked into the front of this thing so you know it's pulling in outside air nicely and I wipe away a circle of dust from the mesh in front of the intake fan at *least* once a day.

My temps are so good. So low.. I saw videos where the experts were saying to remove the top mesh, but, I won't do it. There's plenty of ventilation *with* the mesh, and, dust does have a way of .. falling. If you're running a super super hot rig in a questionably cool room (or live in a plastic bubble and have no dust) ... then.. yeah.. sure, take the mesh off, I guess, but I have never even been tempted to due to the mesh lets plenty of air through while catching lots of dust.

Cool and dust free and having space to work in are the top things I look for in a case and this one has all that. I have no problems recommending it! I use a full atx motherboard in it with a GTX 1660 and the only drives are PCIE SSD. There is tons of empty space to work in and the wiring routed easily and neatly.

It's also a solidly built unit. The removable front panel is plastic, but, the mesh on its face is a not flimsy metal, making the front cover not so flimsy even though its got plastic. The rest is all steel and tempered glass. The paint job on mine is thick and well done and the glass fits straight and firm. I didn't know if I'd like glass 'holding in all that heat' but I do like having it now that I've been using it awhile - it's been easy to work with and I can watch my MB's diag lights on boot if I want to, and, easily get a visual on all the fans if I want.

The hottest part of the year probably came and went, here, and I never had even the slightest problems with case temps as I have in the past.

Anyway, yay. I cannot recommend this thing enough. I thought that I'd found a major flaw in it the first time I went to blow out the video card - it is harder to get to with an air-duster than I'm used to.. Then, I learned how to bend the lil air duster straw into place (duh) and noticed that no dust came out of my video card even when the fans were whirring from my air can spray.. *that* was impressive. I'm used to seeing a grey cloud appear whenever I do that.

I have not tried to get to my PSU with a duster just due to .. well.. I think the fan hardly ever, if ever, runs, and, it's so well protected from dust (moreso than the fairly dustless video card fans)... I just haven't even bothered yet. This time of year I used to blow my old PSU out .. weekly, at least, after I had one choke and die on dust. Big difference.

This thing will probably pay for itself in saved air duster, the first year (lol). So cool running.. Looks nice. Solidly built. Plenty of room to work in and run cables/wires. Not a bad price, either. I think I paid $60 delivered.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on September 11, 2019, 01:29:16 PM
Would I get a Logitech G602 mouse again..? Hmm.. I had a really hard time adjusting to it after getting used to a Logitech MMO mouse (which is a very good gaming mouse too). I blame this on the MMO mouse due to it .. trains your hand and fingers differently than the standard Logitech gaming mouse.

Anyway, now that I'm used to it - it's … about what I've become used to with past gaming mice.

I miss rechargeable batteries! Batteries that recharge...in the mouse. The G700 had a small square one that was great to use. I had several of them. If I ever let them all die by accident somehow, I could plug in the cord on the mouse and recharge the battery while I played (corded style).

Which brings us to the most remarkable thing about this mouse. If you can't have a rechargeable battery... the G602 has the next best thing. My first batteries (that were included - 2 Duracell AA OEMs and they are heavy but I have no idea how they compare to store-bought) just died, yesterday. 74 days after I got the mouse and used it daily. The mouse will also run on only 1 battery... for those times when your mouse dies (I got 'Down to 5%' warnings, daily, for like a week or so before it died) and you can only find 1 AA in the junk drawer.

Better yet get rechargeable AA's and 'never' (close enough) run out of batteries. I had a recharger ordered with this order but there was a billing problem (I think I ran out of cash...lol).

Anyway, 74 days on cordless mouse batteries is a new record for me by far so I thought I'd share  : )

Oh, and, I always run it in the hi-res/gaming mode - it has a battery saving mode that I tried, once, but, the pointer movement is different so I had to get used to 2 different pointer movements depending on what mode the mouse was in, which, was unacceptable, so, I left it in gaming mode and still did pretty well.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on September 20, 2019, 09:59:14 PM
OK, so, how many months have I had this thing running? And I just cleaned it for the 3rd time. This is a chore normally done at least once a week this time of year. The thing I really can't get over, is, the thing I thought was the 'hidden problem'. The video card. I never, ever, ever ever ever, had a video card so dust-free. The first time I tried to get to it with a can of air and realized it wasn't going to be a straight shot.. I thought the placement was going to be a problem, but, wow. The brass heat pipes .. shine. Dust free. I didn't hardly see anything come out of the fans when I got them to spinning with the air cans.

Unlike video, the processor has your average placement and fan setup. However, it too, barely had any dust.

The intake fan was the dirtiest thing and the exhaust fan blades got a cleaning too but weren't nearly as dusty. The mesh in the front of the case where the intake fan is really does a great job of catching the majority of dust. It's been weeks since I cleaned the case out last, but, I clean the mesh at *least* once a day. We've had 1 rain here in months and my PC sits close to an often used door to the outdoors. It gets dusty.

Anyway, yay. Pretty impressive. I never saw anything like it. I mean, I always get cheap cases normally, but this one was only 60 bucks (still pretty cheap) and wow what a difference. I'm sold on mesh and I'm sold on fans that blow in reverse before they start working (I think the GPU and CPU fans both do that) - as long as that extra work doesn't make them fail extra fast.

Dust free PC's last way longer and run way better. So. Dust free, it's a good thing. Worthy of a yay.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on September 25, 2019, 12:55:37 PM
I think I might have stumbled across why I thought I was being forced to install GeForce Experience in the beginning... duh.

I think... I didn't download the 'DCH' version of the GeForce drivers . (That I didn't even know existed until now).

And I think... once I got the error that the 'Standard' driver I downloaded didn't work... I didn't read past the part that said GForce Experience would do it for me - the part about needing a 'DCH' version. I don't remember seeing anything about 'DCH' in the error message with that first driver install but maybe I missed it.

So I think... it wasn't a master plan from Big Brother to finally get me to make a GeForce Experience account and MS Store account. I think... I just didn't read. Somehow.

I sure don't remember seeing any message about a DCH driver being needed.. maybe that's a recent addition to the installation error message. Maybe not. But, I think, Mystery Solved. I'll find out in a lil over 2 hours when the DL finishes. I saved all my Updates for Throttle Day. Tomorrow they portion me out some more fast data.

It's a lil confusing that DCH seems to be connected with OEM (OEM what? Windows?) . I have a full retail version of Windows 10. I don't know what DCH has to do with OEM and why I can't use the Standard driver. But. Whatever.

Next month... I might finally, finally, be on Real Internet again. I found a provider that installs a dish and charges land line fees and offers land line type service. 20-30ms Ping Times!! True Unlimited Data - no throttling, ever.  A neighbor who recently switched has 3 locations streaming HD video. And the costs/tiers of service are just like what you'd see with land line service. Wow. Well, we'll see. Looking good so far. This may be my last throttled month if all goes well.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on September 30, 2019, 02:10:17 PM
~~~~ building thought of the day ~~~~

After browsing a mail sale on SATA SSDs I just now realized why they still exist..

The number of drives possible (+ speed).

PCIE SSD's exist due to … they are awesome.

However.. If you want to plug in more than 2 PCIE drives then you have to start rigging things. When I was shopping I only remember seeing native support on the motherboard for up to 2 (sleek and sexy) PCIE SSDs.
Title: Re: What would you build?
Post by: Xev on February 12, 2020, 10:49:01 PM
I semi keep up on pricing..

If I were to build, today, I'd build the same thing but with 32 gig of ram and I'd probably get a step up or two in processors due to with these two upgrades the price would be about the same as what I spent a year ago.., and, due to you can never have too much memory, and, due to even though it doesn't bother me at all when gaming - my cpu is probably my current weakest link.

Still luv the case. Still luv Bluetooth. Still luv dual Pcie SSDs. I'm glad I went with a Silver rated PSU from a good company. I've had no problems with Windows 10 and I probably even like it better than 7, now. I thought that fans that have a mind of their own (all my fans but the case fans turn themselves off when the thing they're cooling is cool enough already) might turn out to be problematic but so far so good.