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Community => Task Force Hail Mary => Topic started by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 04:19:43 AM

Title: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 04:19:43 AM
Edit since first

An article for those looking for some info.

https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/18/the-city-of-heroes-private-server-team-has-released-its-code-to-the-world-but-not-the-characters/

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: SilverAgeFan on April 16, 2019, 04:40:44 AM
I feel so betrayed. I don't know which website or who on it can even be trusted anymore.

It's funny. Coming here after reading about the SCORE thing on Massively. I too feel sad and betrayed (in relative proportion considering that Notre Dame was almost/arguably fully lost today).

For years, CoH was my one game, my only game. I miss it dearly. It helped me survive a really nasty multiyear battle with illness. I've had friends I met in game pass away since the game was closed, all of us awaiting a dream of its return. I think about the game and miss it still, probably at least once a month. And man, that tease about original character and account data still existing...

I still miss my stable of several dozen, never-PL'd concept characters, dating back to the first month the game went live. I've been quietly watching the various spiritual successors and public retrofits for the game, and biting my tongue, as none of them seemed to be progressing at a rate that, in my estimation, would bring a playable game into my life prior to 2030.

So tonight, upon catching wind of this story, I'm just really sad. It's not about not being included. (I participated in a lot of end game content on Triumph back in the day, but just the same, I was never quite in the clique. Got a lot of "who dis" when joining incarnate raids, even though I actually lead them on many occasions.) It's a reopening of the sense of loss I felt over the game going away. Nothing has ever come close to what I enjoyed about CoH for the years it was up.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 16, 2019, 04:46:38 AM
I feel so betrayed. I don't know which website or who on it can even be trusted anymore. To be honest, i now no longer trust anyone involved in anything. These people that never truly lost CoH could have been here lying to everyone the entire time while gleefully playing the game like nothing ever happen. Sickening.

Yeah well maybe access to this hidden server will appear soon. I always suspected something like this existed and that paragon chat was mostly to keep us busy until the real thing was available. That said I just wanna play again before I die so I really don't care as long as that happens...

You know I feel sorry for the mods here because I'm sure lots of angry posts and threads are going to be deleted/moderated over the coming days.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Surelle on April 16, 2019, 04:52:21 AM
For seven years this issue 24.5 CoX private server has been running now. No one is going to be inviting anyone else, or letting in anyone else, and any implications that the leakers (whom I do not know whatsoever-- I'm just reading about this on FB, Reddit and MassivelyOP like everybody else not involved is) somehow jeopardized our getting in is total bunk.

Seven years.

 The dev or devs behind this didn't hand Leandro and SCORE all the code, a compiler and a distributor years after the shutdown; they all lost their jobs with the shuttering.  They handed this off before the game shut down.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 04:53:56 AM
I don't want to point fingers at anyone. At this point I'm just sad and anyone innocent doesn't deserve to be accused of anything like this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MegaWatt on April 16, 2019, 05:23:44 AM
its not that it was a secret that is a problem, if its nota hoax then keeping it under ground while NCSoft still has its greedy hands looking to slap down any of us having fun with somthing they killed because they couldnt make a profit or what ever is a -good- idea as it means it may still exist when Saurons eye in Pangyo turns to look at some other community they've shattered.

am i hurt that i dont get to paly it ? yep.....a lot but you know what ? i'd rather have the hope of playing it in the future then palying it for two weeks and then losing it to a Cease and Desist having fun because we want all your money and cant understand why you wont try one of our dozens of identical grind fests! orders.


but on the third hand i'm so conflicted - i dont know who to be mad at (other then NCSoft).......i want CoX back so much.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 05:30:41 AM
Got to be careful with what words are used, posts are being removed. What i will say is, I don't believe there is a future in what was shown. This was kept secret so there is no legal fallout and the chances of that ever changing would be NCsoft losing its copyright or selling its copyright. So basically, never.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MegaWatt on April 16, 2019, 05:36:35 AM
A distant hope is better then no hope i guess......what a roller coaster i've been on in the last 20 minutes.....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 16, 2019, 05:40:11 AM
Got to be careful with what words are used, posts are being removed. What i will say is, I don't believe there is a future in what was shown. This was kept secret so there is no legal fallout and the chances of that ever changing would be NCsoft losing its copyright or selling its copyright. So basically, never.

Relax Atom.  And yes, we do read the news. (https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/15/score-city-of-heroes-emulator-leak/)

Keep it civil like you all have so far, and everything should be fine.  But I will stand fast on anything concerning any private server talk specifically: invites, ultimatums for us or others, or links to private server content in any form will be deleted on sight.  Leandro said it straight, and none of it is here, period.  Our position has not changed. (https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=10951.0)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 05:48:54 AM
Would it be out of line to ask a question everyone really wants to know? I.E Have the Titan people had access to this? If not, why wouldn't you have been if Leo is directly friends with the people here.

(I mean, remove if its out of line, I'm not trying to defame or attack anyone, I just think everyone wants an answer)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 16, 2019, 05:49:42 AM
^^^^^ What Tahquitz said.

I get that people are probably reeling a bit, but I ask you to read what Leo said about why the server has been secret, and try to put yourself in his shoes. He's contributed a LOT to this community, from being an integral part of developing Paragon Chat, to providing various demorecord utilities and videos, to hosting the client files in a way that we just plain can't. This isn't someone who is out to screw over the community or keep to a small clique of friends something that he knows that thousands of people desperately want. I choose to believe that there was, and likely still is, a plan in the works to get this out there for the public. Too many people are instead dwelling in jealousy and misery, jumping to the worst possible conclusions about his motives.

We'll tolerate civil conversation about this issue, though to be honest, it's against my better judgment. But don't let it get out of hand, which includes posting any abusive posts or baseless accusations. Such will be met with expedient nukage with prejudice of the extreme variety.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 16, 2019, 05:57:58 AM
Would it be out of line to ask a question everyone really wants to know? I.E Have the Titan people had access to this? If not, why wouldn't you have been if Leo is directly friends with the people here.

(I mean, remove if its out of line, I'm not trying to defame or attack anyone, I just think everyone wants an answer)
It's a fair question, and one I've answered.

I can only speak for myself, and the answer is no, I'm not on the private server.

Having said that, I've repeatedly said that many times, and each time, there's a contingent of people who refuse to accept that answer, people who use my denial as "proof" that I must be "in on it," which is why honestly, I encourage others not to bother answering. People are going to think what they want to think regardless of the answer, so it's kinda useless to actually answer.

As for why, I dunno. It's not like Leo and I are best buds. We chat about once every month or two, and most of the time it's not even about City of Heroes-related stuff at all. In any event, I'm taking him at his word in his statement to Massively that he knows that I avoid conflicts of interests with Titan. It's one of the reason he hosts the Paragon Chat client files instead of us here, to avoid possible unwelcome legal entanglements, since the Titan Network is hosted in the United States where we're extremely vulnerable to takedowns if we step out of line. Given that, maybe he just assumed that I wouldn't want to be a part of it. He's not incorrect in that assessment, in that if I were directly involved in such a thing, I'd probably 1) be constantly bugging him to release the binaries and, if he possesses it, the source code to the server, and 2) it would post a pretty massive conflict of interest to me personally, weighing what's good for the community versus what's good for the existence and development of his private server.

So I dunno, all I can do is speculate. At any rate, it doesn't bother me. Yesterday I didn't have access to a private server, and it didn't bother me one bit. I'm not about to get mad and worked up about it now just because I know one exists. Just like I had to keep some secrets during the shutdown that could have literally jeopardized some people's livelihoods, I trust Leo to have good reasons for what he's doing. He has a proven track record of working in the community's interest, certainly more than enough credibility with me to give him the benefit of a doubt on this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Victoria Victrix on April 16, 2019, 06:10:57 AM
I understand my name and that of 435 who co-founded RPCongress with Red Djinni and Red Saviour has been linked to this "secret server."

Let me just say two things.

One, as anyone can see from my website I write between four and six books a year.  Spare time?  What's that?

Two, 435 has not been heard from by me (or AFAIK anyone else) for several years--we kept in touch for about a year after the shutdown and then nothing.  He let the RPCongress site lapse after about two years, which is why it's gone.  He was the one paying for the hosting and URL and I'm assuming he couldn't budget that anymore.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 16, 2019, 06:51:03 AM
It's pretty frustrating, given that historically, private servers are only not squashed out by popping up so much that the IP owner just throws up their hands. This isn't keeping all the eggs in one basket, it's keeping a single egg balanced on a pen.

Also, the "We were planning public events but you won't get them now" is just... so eye-roll inspiring.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 16, 2019, 06:52:03 AM
It's a fair question, and one I've answered.

I can only speak for myself, and the answer is no, I'm not on the private server.

Having said that, I've repeatedly said that many times, and each time, there's a contingent of people who refuse to accept that answer, people who use my denial as "proof" that I must be "in on it," which is why honestly, I encourage others not to bother answering. People are going to think what they want to think regardless of the answer, so it's kinda useless to actually answer.

As for why, I dunno. It's not like Leo and I are best buds. We chat about once every month or two, and most of the time it's not even about City of Heroes-related stuff at all. In any event, I'm taking him at his word in his statement to Massively that he knows that I avoid conflicts of interests with Titan. It's one of the reason he hosts the Paragon Chat client files instead of us here, to avoid possible unwelcome legal entanglements, since the Titan Network is hosted in the United States where we're extremely vulnerable to takedowns if we step out of line. Given that, maybe he just assumed that I wouldn't want to be a part of it. He's not incorrect in that assessment, in that if I were directly involved in such a thing, I'd probably 1) be constantly bugging him to release the binaries and, if he possesses it, the source code to the server, and 2) it would post a pretty massive conflict of interest to me personally, weighing what's good for the community versus what's good for the existence and development of his private server.

So I dunno, all I can do is speculate. At any rate, it doesn't bother me. Yesterday I didn't have access to a private server, and it didn't bother me one bit. I'm not about to get mad and worked up about it now just because I know one exists. Just like I had to keep some secrets during the shutdown that could have literally jeopardized some people's livelihoods, I trust Leo to have good reasons for what he's doing. He has a proven track record of working in the community's interest, certainly more than enough credibility with me to give him the benefit of a doubt on this.

The thing that confuses me is why the server or source, whatever...  was given to anyone but the titan network. Especially after that grand speech you made before the game shutdown. During the announcement that it would sunset and how you were not going to just stand around and would fight etc to save the game. It seems to me if anyone would be given this it would be you. Or was it given to you and you gave it to them? You said you were not on it but if you wanted no part of it at all then it would make sense for you to give it to someone else. You don't really have to answer or respond; I'm annoyed by all this and the attitude that has been given to people here as far as private servers go. That and how people pretended all this time it didn't exist or talked to people like shit when they inquired about one in the works.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: P51mus on April 16, 2019, 07:06:25 AM
The weird thing about hearing about an exclusive CoH private server is that it's CoH without the community.  Which makes it more of a weird video game graveyard to wander around.

I find it a bit baffling.

edit: To expand on this a bit: The City of Heroes I remember was an open and welcoming community.  Teaming with newer players and telling them about the game was part of that.  You don't get that with some weird exclusive private server club.  It's pretty much the opposite of what the community was.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: spindisc on April 16, 2019, 07:37:37 AM
I just hope, now that SCORE is out in the public, they will heed to the open letter on reddit to actually make it spread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/bdqf1w/open_letter_to_the_score_team_re_game_preservation/
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: jessejame on April 16, 2019, 08:46:44 AM
Honestly, the people in my circle have long since moved on and basically all contact with those I cared about were lost when the game shut down. Even when some day comes, the hard part won't be getting back the progress that was lost but rather the friends that were made. In light of all of this I buried the game when I lost all of my teammates that I had for years. I can understand where this bothers many of you, but I feel like it'd never be the same. i apologize to the moderators for posting the initial link I didn't realize that it was this big of an issue nor was it my intent to cause trouble. I sympathize with those who knew people who wanted to play again before they passed. My condolences to all of those.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Brigadine on April 16, 2019, 08:48:17 AM
Honestly, the people in my circle have long since moved on and basically all contact with those I cared about were lost when the game shut down. Even when some day comes, the hard part won't be getting back the progress that was lost but rather the friends that were made. In light of all of this I buried the game when I lost all of my teammates that I had for years. I can understand where this bothers many of you, but I feel like it'd never be the same. i apologize to the moderators for posting the initial link I didn't realize that it was this big of an issue nor was it my intent to cause trouble. I sympathize with those who knew people who wanted to play again before they passed. My condolences to all of those.
If you didn't somebody was going to. You definitely shouldn't be sorry for that.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Brigadine on April 16, 2019, 08:51:47 AM
I just hope, now that SCORE is out in the public, they will heed to the open letter on reddit to actually make it spread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/bdqf1w/open_letter_to_the_score_team_re_game_preservation/
That open letter is awesome and true. What better example than Notre Dame burning down today. This game is an artifact just like that structure and the things in it. Once it is lost it is gone.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Thunder Glove on April 16, 2019, 08:55:41 AM
Just going to quote some of my old posts, because they're relevant now:

There was some talk about a server simulator a few years ago (i.e., not the original CoH code, but something which the client would recognize as CoH code), but I don't know if anything ever developed on that front.
I don't mean Segs, I mean another one.  The SCoRE project.

And to go back even further

Quote from: Thunder Glove link=topic=6654.msg135393#msg135393
In the meantime, keep holding a torch for for CoT, VO, SCoRE, and even HaV.

I'm just thrilled that news of SCoRE has finally surfaced again.  I can't be too mad that the Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers was, you know, secret.  A little sad, maybe (even after all these years, I have SO MANY character ideas in addition to all the old characters I'd love to play again) but knowing that there are at least two emulators (or simulators?) out there being worked on instead of one doubles my hope for playing it again someday.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 16, 2019, 09:10:23 AM
I had heard of SCORE closer to the shutdown date, but, it's been so long, I completely forgot about it.

Really, I'm not even upset that they're choosing to have a private, invite-only server. You're paying for it, do with it what you will. But withholding the ability for anyone else with the resources to do similar, that's got me irritated.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: summers on April 16, 2019, 09:23:21 AM
I've pined for City of Heroes for years, so to hear there might be a private server brings on so many mixed feelings. I think a lot will feel hurt - that they have wanted something so much and it was kept concealed from them. I also feel hope - that it might be available to us, but also quite deflated - that there's only rumours and we are no closer to anything.

I just wish I could play the game again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Phocks on April 16, 2019, 10:13:59 AM
Man, this is real depressing. I've seen a lot of real terrible attacks on the people involved, and a lot of defending what I can't really wrap my head around as good decision making.


I think my biggest hang-up remains just how antithetical to the community's spirit this feels. I've seen a lot of posts claiming that an attitude like that is "jealous" or "entitled" or something, but it just feels like a colossal let-down to know something like this has just been bubbling in the background and being sat on for... what? 5 years, give or take? Honestly, I want to believe it was something that was entirely necessary, but when there's content being patched in and the game being furthered, all for an audience that's basically just a clique with a real cool clubhouse? That sucks. A whole lot. I don't really understand the claims of public events (that are now nixed?) since it seems like it's never really gonna be entirely safe to have the server be open.


The fact that the code could've been given out anonymously rather than hoarded really feels like the icing, here. If you wanna have your exclusive clubhouse and updates, terrific. But why not let others take their own crack at it?


It's been long enough where I can't really feel angry about the whole situation, it's just all immensely disappointing how it's been handled here. As much as I'd love to be able to play the game again, seeing it in hands making these calls just sours the prospect a whole lot.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Auroxis on April 16, 2019, 12:39:31 PM
Just watching videos from the private server has me hyped. Please, whoever is in charge, do the right thing for the community.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MyriVerse on April 16, 2019, 01:05:27 PM
Frankly, I don't get all the butthurt. The best thing to do with things like this is to keep them as secret as possible. I actually hope the people running this server can maintain their secrecy after this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 16, 2019, 02:56:32 PM
The thing that confuses me is why the server or source, whatever...  was given to anyone but the titan network.

Believe me, that question has crossed my mind more than once, especially since I know several of the devs and have a good rapport with the ones I know.

I'm not going to speculate on who released what to Leo. I honestly have no idea, and in fact, as I type this, I'm not 100% sure that anyone did. (Has that actually been definitively established?) No one has confessed to me, and really, it's probably something I'd rather not know because I'd be lying if I said that I'm totally on board with swiping code from one's employer, even in the cause of some more noble principle. (Though to be clear, I'm not saying I'm against it. Frankly, I'm torn on the issue.) Maybe that's why; whoever did it knows that Leo had more time, effort, and ability to see this to fruition than I did, with fewer qualms about setting it through to its logical end.

It really, really doesn't matter to me. I'm just glad something was released to somebody. It means it's out there, it wasn't totally destroyed, so our chances of having something tangible at some point are dramatically higher than they were before.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 16, 2019, 03:03:05 PM
The post they made doesn't sound like we'll ever get it, if anything it sounds like "we're sorry we got caught, but not sorry for lying, and since we got caught NO ONE ELSE WILL EVER be able to play it"

Parading around like they were going to let the community in ever, I don't believe them, if they've been lying this long, I cannot trust them.

They're wolves in sheep clothing, sitting here "mourning the game" like the rest of us, while instead they've been playing it for years.

The only right thing for them to do is leak the source files, keep their server private, we don't want to be part of score, we want the files out.


Self-Interest does not equal right.

The code is still NCsoft's.  It was not reverse engineered. It is not a generic server code filled with fanfiction, but a duplicate of the intellectual property of NCsoft.  It should not be shared with the spiritual successors, that's NCsoft's choice and would likely guarantee the demise of those efforts if they built on it.   Likewise releasing it creates a situation where any number of parties would benefit unfairly from Ncsoft's investment.

I'm not an ncsoft defender or an apologist, that's just cold, hard truth.   And, Yes,  those are unpopular statements.  The next few are too.

The level of entitlement that appears to be ignored by or blinding the people demanding the release of the code is staggering. Many people may feel hurt,  but no one in this community has been wronged because the secret server existed (only ncsoft).  The public does not get to have the code just because it was stolen by someone lacking good moral judgement.  People made mistakes and bad decisions,  but that doesn't entitle the remainder of the community to a hand out of the code.   It's not ethical and it's just not ours.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 16, 2019, 03:06:36 PM
I have a number of thoughts, and my emotions have been a bit jumbled through all of this. I'm trying to keep it as much within the guidelines that Tahquitz posted earlier, so hopefully this comes across in the manner I want.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nightmarer on April 16, 2019, 03:10:36 PM
To be honest it feels like the game closure over again but I have nothing to say against the people who kept it secret except that it feels naive since, sooner or later the info was going to be leaked, either on purpose or by accident.
 
Some people said that the problem is that the people not invited are just jealous, I can't speak for other but in my case, yes, I am jealous and hurt and sad but I am also perfectly aware that, had I been playing in the infamous server, now I'd be mad at the leaker for causing a the server to (temporally) close and putting in at risk of a C&D from NCSoft. To each their own, I would be eternally grateful if invited but there's nothing I can do for things beyond my control.

Maybe (or even probably), had the code been passed on to other people, there would be a ton of shitty servers (whoever tried certain WoW private servers knows exactly what am I talking about) and we would be complaining anyway for not finding a decent server to play, who knows.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: etnies445 on April 16, 2019, 03:55:50 PM

Self-Interest does not equal right.

The code is still NCsoft's.  It was not reverse engineered. It is not a generic server code filled with fanfiction, but a duplicate of the intellectual property of NCsoft.  It should not be shared with the spiritual successors, that's NCsoft's choice and would likely guarantee the demise of those efforts if they built on it.   Likewise releasing it creates a situation where any number of parties would benefit unfairly from Ncsoft's investment.

I'm not an ncsoft defender or an apologist, that's just cold, hard truth.   And, Yes,  those are unpopular statements.  The next few are too.

The level of entitlement that appears to be ignored by or blinding the people demanding the release of the code is staggering. Many people may feel hurt,  but no one in this community has been wronged because the secret server existed (only ncsoft).  The public does not get to have the code just because it was stolen by someone lacking good moral judgement.  People made mistakes and bad decisions,  but that doesn't entitle the remainder of the community to a hand out of the code.   It's not ethical and it's just not ours.

Was it NCsofts choice to run a private server for 6 years? Didn't SCoRE benefit unfairly from Ncsoft's investments?

These are all things score and those playing it are guilty of, but releasing it to other people - that somehow is bad for NCSoft, but having a p server up for how many years was...good?

I'm sorry, you aren't making much sense, very contradictory, releasing it does nothing they already haven't done in regards to NCsoft, so it's really difficult for score to play the "We're not releasing it because NCsoft wouldn't want it released!" card, without just seeming like hypocrites.


And to your point, self interest doesn't equal right, they've been running a p server for self interest for years, so no it doesn't. They are completely guilty in the eyes of NCSoft and the community, and there is only one side they can try to earn good faith with at this point, and it ain't NCsoft.


Edit: I will add, for the most part I personally had moved on, but learning about this p server has just reopened so many wounds. Until today I barely thought about CoH, and honestly I'm not sure I even would want the game back - even with their "updates" to it. The game is now 6+ years past the last update, the graphics honestly were fine for its time but are really lacking now, and I don't think even if I had the chance id play CoH on a small server without the community. The game is dead for me, NCSoft won't re-release it, I personally gave up, I moved on.

Seeing videos of people playing makes me realize a coh server with no updates would only keep me interested for so long, hell even when CoH was live I often quit inbetween issues and took time off the game, I couldn't imagine how quick id lose interest in a 15 year old game that hasn't seen a real update for 6 years.

CoH will always have a nice spot in my memories as my first MMO of many i'd play, but I honestly just wish this secret was never exposed. As they say, ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: SilverAgeFan on April 16, 2019, 04:21:09 PM
To be honest it feels like the game closure over again

This.

The news of this server and the idea that my entire character roster could someday be revived definitely made it surprisingly difficult to sleep. I'm a 45 y.o. with plenty of adult responsibilities that I meet quite well. This has all just driven home how much I miss the game, my characters and the time invested in them (developing both their video game aspects AND their roleplaying traits) through repeated, longstanding relatively slow play.

I do miss the community I knew, but I presume that disrupted for good. Were the game revived as a giant consolidated server (with the fabled 1000 character slots per account), I definitely would be fine making new friends in what felt like an old space with all my old second-selves.

This said, though I'm sad and surprised at the level of grief and resentment I still harbor regarding the initial shutdown, I don't begrudge the secrecy around the server. I don't see it as a spiteful sort of elitism. In their shoes, with the hot elements in their hands, I can't say I wouldn't have found my own means of keeping it under protective wraps that would have been less accessible to people who played the live game differently from me.

The sense I get is it was the reddit crew, comprised of people who made talking about the game post-closure, pretty central to their leisure time that made it into the server. I also have a notion that old-time CoH forum celebrities and VERY active and visible players were likely sponsored and vetted. From the video leaker's version of the story, I also assume that by virtue (haha!) of the networks drawn close, many freedom-ites, who played harder into the video game side of the CoH were getting sponsored and vetted, even if they didn't have interest (remember the leaker claimed only 3 of his 8 nominees even ever logged in to play!!!).

Meanwhile, because of the population I gamed with, slightly older and one that mostly stayed away from the forums because of the drama that came with that venue, one that was not part of a hardcore out of game RP community, who RP'd regularly, casually but continuously in game—who didn't post on post closure forums much or log in to paragon chat for anniversary events, not because we stopped caring, but because it was honestly too much of a painful reminder—people like us who were relatively silent but invisible in all these arenas were going to be left out of this sort of secret society style invite only inclusion.

And I think that's the bummer here. It's not that people like myself didn't love the game any more or less than those included in the private server and further development of the game, but that traits of our out-of-game lives (needing to keep our gaming life separate for whatever reason from our public identities) or personality traits (being intimidated or not having patience for online forum dramas) meant that we just wouldn't get a chance to play the game again.

Had I the chance, I gladly would have paid monthly. I did up until closure. I believed in the game and I had funds. I'm older and even more stable financially. Given a working game setup, I would have gladly donated to a crowd funding server upgrade that I've seen elsewhere. I would have been another body in game who knew the game, was capable in end game content, open and willing to work with others, often in a goofy mood, RPing on PUGs. In short, I would have been an asset to that environment.

But I, and so many others who miss the game dearly and who were similarly left out, simply will be passed over via this means of sourcing dedicated community members. We simply aren't the loud ones.

And one last thing I thought about during my somewhat sleepless night: I've seen many people expressing how poorly this reflects on the community, that it's rotted and fractured—it always was fractured due to how differently sub-groups were able to approach CoH. But I don't think it's rotted. It has strayed. But it has strayed particularly because the game itself was for so many of us (especially for people like me!) the primary social platform that we used to keep in touch about the game. The game space made the community and gave many us means to maintain that community. (This is not to undercut any of the excellent long term out of game community building by dedicated persons, such as those at Titan Network, CoH faces, etc.)

Alright. That's my brain dump. Probably going to slip back into lurker mode as I put a pin in this one.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 16, 2019, 04:23:16 PM
Was it NCsofts choice to run a private server for 6 years? Didn't SCoRE benefit unfairly from Ncsoft's investments?

These are all things score and those playing it are guilty of, but releasing it to other people - that somehow is bad for NCSoft, but having a p server up for how many years was...good?

I'm sorry, you aren't making much sense, very contradictory, releasing it does nothing they already haven't done in regards to NCsoft, so it's really difficult for score to play the "We're not releasing it because NCsoft wouldn't want it released!" card, without just seeming like hypocrites.


And to your point, self interest doesn't equal right, they've been running a p server for self interest for years, so no it doesn't. They are completely guilty in the eyes of NCSoft and the community, and there is only one side they can try to earn good faith with at this point, and it ain't NCsoft.


Edit: I will add, for the most part I personally had moved on, but learning about this p server has just reopened so many wounds. Until today I barely thought about CoH, and honestly I'm not sure I even would want the game back - even with their "updates" to it. The game is now 6+ years past the last update, the graphics honestly were fine for its time but are really lacking now, and I don't think even if I had the chance id play CoH on a small server without the community. The game is dead for me, NCSoft won't re-release it, I personally gave up, I moved on.

Seeing videos of people playing makes me realize a coh server with no updates would only keep me interested for so long, hell even when CoH was live I often quit inbetween issues and took time off the game, I couldn't imagine how quick id lose interest in a 15 year old game that hasn't seen a real update for 6 years.

CoH will always have a nice spot in my memories as my first MMO of many i'd play, but I honestly just wish this secret was never exposed. As they say, ignorance is bliss.


It's not contradictory,  because I didn't address SCoRE's benefit or guilt,  because that is implied in statements about it being NCsofts property,  benefiting at ncsofts expense and labeling it as stolen..... all are not good.   But what was done is the past.


The point is what will happen going forward,  and although you conveniently skipped the second half of my post,  you so eloquently demonstrated that mentality of entitlement when you wrote that "they are completely guilty in the eyes of the community" and the only way to earn "good faith" back is to release the code.   


Two wrongs do not make a right.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Radionuclide on April 16, 2019, 04:27:30 PM
  • My above point only stands if the code really is stolen, which still hasn't been confirmed or denied. There's way too much speculation on that point. If it was, that's a big set of issues; if it wasn't, my second point about feeling betrayed by SCoRE not releasing a working reverse engineered game is where I'll end up.

There is no way it is not stolen. It would be impossible for them to provide players with their old characters without that being the case.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 16, 2019, 04:50:25 PM
I'm going to take it on faith that among the private server members there is a strong pantsless contingent. Assured of that, I have no complaints.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 16, 2019, 05:14:10 PM
The good news is that NCSOFT now has something to sell or run themselves if they can reclaim their property.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 05:17:50 PM
It feels really dishonest. Everything just feels dishonest. I get why it should have been kept under wraps, i truly do...but these people have a functioning version of the game now and the choice is actively being made to hide it. Thats the worst part, there is 0 supporting evidence that it was ever going to be public and now that everyone knows and the secrets out, we just have to sit here from here on out knowing that City of Heroes was saved but for some reason, only for a handful of people and their friends.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 16, 2019, 05:22:45 PM
A lot of posters are missing the lead here. The release 24 server exists and is functional.  SCORE has a working version to use!

Until this news there was serious question as to whether the code needed to run COH even still existed or could be made functional.

SCORE stands for "The Secret Cabal of REVERSE ENGINEERS.  And at least one of their hypothesized projects is a reverse-engineered COH 24 server that can be run on a single machine released into the wild for anybody to run.  If you're focusing on the fact that they have a server running (like that idiot behind the "all of us or none of us" crap a few years back) you're missing the fact that this is the best news about getting the game back in the last 5 years.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nightmarer on April 16, 2019, 05:27:13 PM
I'm a 45 y.o.

49 here

I definitely would be fine making new friends in what felt like an old space with all my old second-selves.

Same here

not part of a hardcore out of game RP community, who RP'd regularly, casually but continuously in game—who didn't post on post closure forums much or log in to paragon chat for anniversary events, not because we stopped caring, but because it was honestly too much of a painful reminder

This

Had I the chance, I gladly would have paid monthly. I did up until closure. I believed in the game and I had funds. I'm older and even more stable financially. Given a working game setup, I would have gladly donated to a crowd funding server upgrade that I've seen elsewhere. I would have been another body in game who knew the game, was capable in end game content, open and willing to work with others, often in a goofy mood, RPing on PUGs. In short, I would have been an asset to that environment.

Same here.

I was playing in EU servers with two accounts and eventually moved to US servers with another two accounts and, at a certain stage, when they opened EU-US transfers I found myself with 4 accounts. In any case, I made friends both sides of the pond and, although I was somewhat active on forums, I just tried to be discreet in game and have fun but unfortunately, that did not get me any contacts who now could (or would) get me an invite to the server, ah well.


Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 16, 2019, 05:29:58 PM
A lot of posters are missing the lead here. The release 24 server exists and is functional.  SCORE has a working version to use!

Until this news there was serious question as to whether the code needed to run COH even still existed or could be made functional.

SCORE stands for "The Secret Cabal of REVERSE ENGINEERS.  And at least one of their hypothesized projects is a reverse-engineered COH 24 server that can be run on a single machine released into the wild for anybody to run.  If you're focusing on the fact that they have a server running (like that idiot behind the "all of us or none of us" crap a few years back) you're missing the fact that this is the best news about getting the game back in the last 5 years.


Running stolen code with stolen data and copyrighted  content on a server is not the same as reverse engineering the server and playing it with new and original,  uncopyrighted fan fiction....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 05:31:08 PM
Quote
A lot of posters are missing the lead here. The release 24 server exists and is functional.  SCORE has a working version to use!

Until this news there was serious question as to whether the code needed to run COH even still existed or could be made functional.

SCORE stands for "The Secret Cabal of REVERSE ENGINEERS.  And at least one of their hypothesized projects is a reverse-engineered COH 24 server that can be run on a single machine released into the wild for anybody to run.  If you're focusing on the fact that they have a server running (like that idiot behind the "all of us or none of us" crap a few years back) you're missing the fact that this is the best news about getting the game back in the last 5 years.


Looking at the only stuff with any weight to it, you know /those/ videos, If the code was ever going to be released it would have been by now. The threat of a C&D only works if the project was a WIP, not in a completed state. The only thing we have to go on is the word of one guy since the other side was vague and told us to support a project thats issue 0 and doesn't have functioning anything really while they're doing incarnate trials and playing the whole game. (No hate twords SEGS, beautiful honest people) Until the other side defends itself and actually has proof of what they're doing and their intentions everyone only has one side to the story and that side hurts.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 16, 2019, 05:31:48 PM
A lot of posters are missing the lead here. The release 24 server exists and is functional.  SCORE has a working version to use!

Until this news there was serious question as to whether the code needed to run COH even still existed or could be made functional.

SCORE stands for "The Secret Cabal of REVERSE ENGINEERS.  And at least one of their hypothesized projects is a reverse-engineered COH 24 server that can be run on a single machine released into the wild for anybody to run.  If you're focusing on the fact that they have a server running (like that idiot behind the "all of us or none of us" crap a few years back) you're missing the fact that this is the best news about getting the game back in the last 5 years.

Something having the ability to happen is not the same as it actually happening, and it seems they have no intention of allowing how they managed this to spread. Which isn't going to help anyone else aside from the people who get private invites.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 16, 2019, 05:49:42 PM
I wake up every day and can look in the mirror and say - I am a good man - not a great man, I wasn't born rich or able to hit 700 home runs. I raised 2 girls to be adults. I am helping raise 6 grand kids and I don't desire anything I have not earned.

I see a lot of the posts here saying why not me? Why was I left out - I never knew about the server and still I don't envy those who played. They knew what they were doing was wrong, they knew they couldn't share it with anyone and they now face the loss of respect by the other players. The game belongs to NCSoft unless someone gets permission or changes it enough not to violate TOS.

I can look in the mirror and still say - I am a good man, I don't want the game back unless I can take you all with me.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 16, 2019, 05:54:13 PM
If anyone knows the people involved personally, suggest to them that they contact archive.org.   If nothing else, archive.org might be willing to preserve the code even if they won't distribute it.  Laws change and what's illegal today could be legal tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 16, 2019, 06:03:00 PM
They knew what they were doing was wrong, they knew they couldn't share it with anyone and they now face the loss of respect by the other players. The game belongs to NCSoft unless someone gets permission or changes it enough not to violate TOS.

Uh mate... people are mad because this was secretly kept from them not because it wasnt “Legal” You do get that most of us wanted to play regardless of whether it was legal or not.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 06:28:17 PM
Well, It's on VICE now who reached out to NCsoft for comment. So...secrets completely out now?

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mb8jd8/a-secret-server-for-the-dead-mmo-city-of-heroes-has-players-in-an-uproar
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 16, 2019, 06:28:54 PM
Uh mate... people are mad because this was secretly kept from them not because it wasnt “Legal” You do get that most of us wanted to play regardless of whether it was legal or not.

I won't lie.  I'd have been one of those players if invited.  It's so justifiable in a Robin Hood sort of way.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 16, 2019, 06:32:26 PM
If the people involved want to save face, they should spread the information as far and wide as they can so that it cant be traced back to just them, and so we can have our game back.

I don't care what rationalization there is. I want to play my game again, and I think all of us do. They know that.

But no, now we hear about the special select few who got invites over and over again.

I played hours and hours of that game. I was incredibly active, just not the right kind of active, likely the forums, likely here, likely who knows what.

Private servers are at best legally gray.

Release the servers.

Invite us all.

Don't keep it to yourself. NCSoft is not going to give us back our game. You can. Do it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 16, 2019, 06:33:53 PM
Well, It's on VICE now who reached out to NCsoft for comment. So...secrets completely out now?

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/mb8jd8/a-secret-server-for-the-dead-mmo-city-of-heroes-has-players-in-an-uproar

Well, now we know NCSOFT knows ... or at least should know.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: blue storm on April 16, 2019, 06:37:22 PM
I, for one, am happy that there is an ISSUE 24 server somewhere....  Sure I did move on and played other games since then : but would I go back to CoH : YES, in an instant.

So I'm just hoping that someone will put an anonymous torrent somewhere with that server code, for everyone to grab.

Paragon should seed and endure.

Paragon Lives !
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: PerfectWeapon on April 16, 2019, 06:43:12 PM
I have not posted in a few years, but it does feel like a slap in the face.  Also, the thought of someone else having access and possibly playing my characters makes me feel dirty lol.  Iron Wolf you are the man, thanks for what you do.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 06:47:17 PM
Believe me, that question has crossed my mind more than once, especially since I know several of the devs and have a good rapport with the ones I know.

I'm not going to speculate on who released what to Leo. I honestly have no idea, and in fact, as I type this, I'm not 100% sure that anyone did. (Has that actually been definitively established?) No one has confessed to me, and really, it's probably something I'd rather not know because I'd be lying if I said that I'm totally on board with swiping code from one's employer, even in the cause of some more noble principle. (Though to be clear, I'm not saying I'm against it. Frankly, I'm torn on the issue.) Maybe that's why; whoever did it knows that Leo had more time, effort, and ability to see this to fruition than I did, with fewer qualms about setting it through to its logical end.

It really, really doesn't matter to me. I'm just glad something was released to somebody. It means it's out there, it wasn't totally destroyed, so our chances of having something tangible at some point are dramatically higher than they were before.

It means the CoH legacy is in safe hands.  This will be a day long remembered despite the unfortunate manner of the 'leak.'

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 06:50:16 PM
If anyone knows the people involved personally, suggest to them that they contact archive.org.   If nothing else, archive.org might be willing to preserve the code even if they won't distribute it.  Laws change and what's illegal today could be legal tomorrow.

Hmm.  That's an intriguing suggestion.

'Law' (currently stacked in favour of the corporations who 'made' them...) is subject to change.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 06:53:47 PM
I don't know if safe hands is a good word to be used considering they're being accused of hoarding it for themselves. Nobody has ever had the right to select who can and cannot play City of Heroes. Wasn't right when NCsoft tried, isn't right now.

Again though, until both sides come out it's speculation and accusations.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 07:09:35 PM
I, for one, am happy that there is an ISSUE 24 server somewhere....  Sure I did move on and played other games since then : but would I go back to CoH : YES, in an instant.

So I'm just hoping that someone will put an anonymous torrent somewhere with that server code, for everyone to grab.

Paragon should seed and endure.

Paragon Lives !

'It's alive.'

Somewhere.

That's an upgrade on 'doesn't exist anymore because NC Soft wiped the servers, the back up, the development team and the players.' out of existence.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: mrultimate on April 16, 2019, 07:10:30 PM
I wake up every day and can look in the mirror and say - I am a good man - not a great man, I wasn't born rich or able to hit 700 home runs. I raised 2 girls to be adults. I am helping raise 6 grand kids and I don't desire anything I have not earned.

I see a lot of the posts here saying why not me? Why was I left out - I never knew about the server and still I don't envy those who played. They knew what they were doing was wrong, they knew they couldn't share it with anyone and they now face the loss of respect by the other players. The game belongs to NCSoft unless someone gets permission or changes it enough not to violate TOS.

I can look in the mirror and still say - I am a good man, I don't want the game back unless I can take you all with me.

Well said Ironwolf.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 07:17:23 PM
It makes complete sense that SCORE did what they did.

In light of the demolition job that 'C&D' bulldozed the Tab Ras emu team.

Prudence and discretion are the order of the day.  Until the end of time?  Until the right time.

Corporations like the odds stacked in their favour.

However, when you treat people like c**p the scales of 'justice' eventually re-balance.  Ergo: the 'leak' of code(?) from PC to the 'secret community.'  NC Soft didn't drape themselves in glory over the CoH shut down.  It was personal.  It's an old game.  Just give it back to the community and get some GOOD p.r, NC.  But no, you'll pry it from their dead, dying hands.  We don't want to own the IP rights.  Just a creaky old server to play a creaky old game that was and still is unique.

And 'natural justice' and 'the law' don't always weigh evenly.

So.  Things like this happen.  Call it moral outrage.  But they channeled it internally.  'Secret Heroes.'  Sure, it would be nice if we'd all got an invite.  But the 'open secret' would have led to being sued into oblivion.

So?

That's fine by me.  'The team' will know if and when the time is right.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 07:21:06 PM
Well said Ironwolf.

It is 'well said.'

However, we'll be waiting a long time for a corporation like NC Soft (and their 'honour code') to bend.

Perhaps our best hope is legal access to MMOs (we paid a lot of rental money for...and still own the goddamn boxes but can't access the game...even as solo or local LAN...) granted by a 'vote of fairness' from those great guys and gals in congress.

Or SEGs.  They're making sound progress.   Or...   or..

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 07:24:09 PM
PS.  Kick-ass statement from Leandro.

An elegant nail-gun which addresses the matter in its entirety.

That's fine by me, Leandro.

Your (and the team's) heart is in the right place.

'Never the end.'

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 07:33:39 PM
NCsoft was being sued over Tabula. It makes sense to squish it out of fear. Lineage 2, wildstar, lineage, and guildwars have very public private servers and some of those games have for years. So that doesn't actually work. Furthering, the C&D fear doesn't make sense to be the only ones with it. A public anon release to make sure it never fades makes more sense in that situation. The statement was full of holes and to think otherwise is weird. I'm not going to attack anyone but i'm not going to just pretend everything is fine either.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 16, 2019, 07:34:15 PM
Your (and the team's) heart is in the right place.

I mean, is it, though?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 16, 2019, 07:59:05 PM
That is the problem isn't it.

When you have the chance to do something selfless or to keep it for yourself - what would you do? I think i would get a few people in the world of computing and have them make a launcher that could be hosted on a standard gaming server (www.serversaustralia.com.au/resources/blog/beginners-guide-to-setting-up-a-private-wow-server/) where you can normally rent them for about 1 American dollar per slot a month. If you wanted an entire server you might be able to work a discount.

Now what happens?

That is going to be up to NCSoft and the owners of the private server. If they want to contact me - I retire in August and would be happy to try hosting a wide open server that could test the limits of NCSofts patience and I would in fact have wide open books so they could see I make zero profit - but have a donation page that will give all extra funds beyond running expenses to them in a monthly check. This MIGHT allow some leeway on our behalf.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 08:18:03 PM
That is the problem isn't it.

When you have the chance to do something selfless or to keep it for yourself - what would you do? I think i would get a few people in the world of computing and have them make a launcher that could be hosted on a standard gaming server (www.serversaustralia.com.au/resources/blog/beginners-guide-to-setting-up-a-private-wow-server/) where you can normally rent them for about 1 American dollar per slot a month. If you wanted an entire server you might be able to work a discount.

Now what happens?

That is going to be up to NCSoft and the owners of the private server. If they want to contact me - I retire in August and would be happy to try hosting a wide open server that could test the limits of NCSofts patience and I would in fact have wide open books so they could see I make zero profit - but have a donation page that will give all extra funds beyond running expenses to them in a monthly check. This MIGHT allow some leeway on our behalf.


This is what safe hands looks like.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Rumahu on April 16, 2019, 08:19:15 PM
That is the problem isn't it.

When you have the chance to do something selfless or to keep it for yourself - what would you do? I think i would get a few people in the world of computing and have them make a launcher that could be hosted on a standard gaming server (www.serversaustralia.com.au/resources/blog/beginners-guide-to-setting-up-a-private-wow-server/) where you can normally rent them for about 1 American dollar per slot a month. If you wanted an entire server you might be able to work a discount.

Now what happens?

That is going to be up to NCSoft and the owners of the private server. If they want to contact me - I retire in August and would be happy to try hosting a wide open server that could test the limits of NCSofts patience and I would in fact have wide open books so they could see I make zero profit - but have a donation page that will give all extra funds beyond running expenses to them in a monthly check. This MIGHT allow some leeway on our behalf.

I will help back the server, and I'm sure many others will as well. Use a patreon page or something of the sort to help with server costs and make it on a donation basis and we'll be right back into another grey area with NCSoft and we might be able to keep it up since it's not making a "profit" and is free to use.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 16, 2019, 08:25:35 PM
Look at how many people come out of the woodwork, wanting to help, wanting to be a part of it.

Here's the thing: if it is completely done, there is no reason to keep it secret.

They even have content WE NEVER HAD.

The only reason to keep it to themselves, is to be the ones in control of CoX.

Spread it. Share it. Give it back to the community.

Lording over us like this does nothing besides make it so not only did ncsoft backstab us, but you did, too.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nightmarer on April 16, 2019, 08:27:36 PM
That is the problem isn't it.

When you have the chance to do something selfless or to keep it for yourself - what would you do? I think i would get a few people in the world of computing and have them make a launcher that could be hosted on a standard gaming server (www.serversaustralia.com.au/resources/blog/beginners-guide-to-setting-up-a-private-wow-server/) where you can normally rent them for about 1 American dollar per slot a month. If you wanted an entire server you might be able to work a discount.

Now what happens?

That is going to be up to NCSoft and the owners of the private server. If they want to contact me - I retire in August and would be happy to try hosting a wide open server that could test the limits of NCSofts patience and I would in fact have wide open books so they could see I make zero profit - but have a donation page that will give all extra funds beyond running expenses to them in a monthly check. This MIGHT allow some leeway on our behalf.

I would absolutely love if taht would happen. I have been unable to be interested in any MMO for more than a few weeks so I have been playing on and off LOTRO, SWTOR. Age of Conan, Rift, WoW, heck I even tried Elder Scrolls Online. I was currently playing Rift and, to my own surprise, I realized that I was unable to play knowing as I know now that there is a CoH server, I know it is irrational but I am afraid I can't help it therefore, what you suggest here feels amazing and I really wish that you had a totally unplanned circumstance that by sheer chance made a copy the code available for you.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: SilverAgeFan on April 16, 2019, 08:28:10 PM
In an attempt at some levity, found a few screenshots buried on an old drive while looking for some work stuff this afternoon.

The first is a bee themed hero made within the last year or so of live servers.

The rest are costumes I was playing with after all the hubbub around the gunslinger pack being pretty useless for most costumes. I got a lot of generalized use out of those bits.  :)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LY0DTwQ2/bee-costume.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LY0DTwQ2)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qhYcnng7/gslinger-greywolf.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhYcnng7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/B8729DTC/gslinger-avarice.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8729DTC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DJWL2Z53/gslinger-midnight.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJWL2Z53)

(https://i.postimg.cc/G4qyGY51/gslinger-turbolass.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G4qyGY51)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 08:44:42 PM
That is the problem isn't it.

When you have the chance to do something selfless or to keep it for yourself - what would you do? I think i would get a few people in the world of computing and have them make a launcher that could be hosted on a standard gaming server (www.serversaustralia.com.au/resources/blog/beginners-guide-to-setting-up-a-private-wow-server/) where you can normally rent them for about 1 American dollar per slot a month. If you wanted an entire server you might be able to work a discount.

Now what happens?

That is going to be up to NCSoft and the owners of the private server. If they want to contact me - I retire in August and would be happy to try hosting a wide open server that could test the limits of NCSofts patience and I would in fact have wide open books so they could see I make zero profit - but have a donation page that will give all extra funds beyond running expenses to them in a monthly check. This MIGHT allow some leeway on our behalf.

Intriguing idea. 

I guess the more people that had it, legal 'whack a mole' would be hard to chase CoH private servers breeding like rabbits...  (Though, of course, I'm not suggesting they drop a hydrogen bomb by releasing private servers in Argentina..., Ecuador...and...)

It is interesting that Nostralius (by sheer volume of numbers, 1 million peak?) brought Blizzard to the negotiating table with their private server.  Such was the demand for 'Vanilla' WoW.  (For me the equivalent would be pre: issue 4 even though, of course SCORE are settled on issue 24 and who would say 'no' to insta-snipe, eh?)

I still can't fathom that CoH never had a million players.  It's better than WoW.  I've played WoW a lot in CoH's absence in the last couple of years.  Kudos to them for pushing the envelope on it.  But I never found the combat or community or mobbing a patch on CoH.

Still, the mere idea that CoH has been living a secret life, sipping a margarita and wearing a straw hat on some exotic sandy shore somewhere on the dark web...

...a day of celebration.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 08:46:16 PM
In an attempt at some levity, found a few screenshots buried on an old drive while looking for some work stuff this afternoon.

The first is a bee themed hero made within the last year or so of live servers.

The rest are costumes I was playing with after all the hubbub around the gunslinger pack being pretty useless for most costumes. I got a lot of generalized use out of those bits.  :)

Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LY0DTwQ2/bee-costume.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LY0DTwQ2)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qhYcnng7/gslinger-greywolf.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhYcnng7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/B8729DTC/gslinger-avarice.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8729DTC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DJWL2Z53/gslinger-midnight.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DJWL2Z53)

(https://i.postimg.cc/G4qyGY51/gslinger-turbolass.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G4qyGY51)

Some good costumes there.

Just when you think there aren't anymore costume combinations...

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 16, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
If, you make all funds above monthly costs refunded to NCSoft - you might - get some slack. Then again it belongs to them and they paid millions for it.

Other people have the knowledge to do this as well and several of them are running the game NOW. They know the cost and they have the code. I would suggest setting one up and do so openly - no need to even broach the subject of who, what, when, where the code came from. Follow the idea to give all extra funds to NCSoft.

Carry the torch, pass it on.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 16, 2019, 08:54:55 PM
If, you make all funds above monthly costs refunded to NCSoft - you might - get some slack. Then again it belongs to them and they paid millions for it.

Other people have the knowledge to do this as well and several of them are running the game NOW. They know the cost and they have the code. I would suggest setting one up and do so openly - no need to even broach the subject of who, what, when, where the code came from. Follow the idea to give all extra funds to NCSoft.

Carry the torch, pass it on.

An interesting idea, Ironwolf.  I'm not sure NC Soft have the same courage or honour code you have.  But many will say you don't know until you try.

Some have said they don't sue with private servers for their other properties?  Is there the suggestion with CoH that it is somehow 'personal'?  (People can speculate as to what I mean by that.)  But again, if a server went up?  It would be a first significant test.

The laws of 'legacy' games are starting to soften in terms of recent legislation.  Even 'fair use' in terms of preserving MMOs is being brought under scrutiny.  Perhaps the team are waiting until it's 'black and white' before breaking cover...

...

Didn't Starwars Galaxies (was it?) that had a 'leak' of code from Sony themselves?  And they left the 'Starwars' community to 'get on with it?'

Azrael.

PS.  Iron wolf.  Great to have you back posting on these boards again.  Your voice of reason and creativity have been much missed. 
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TinFoil on April 16, 2019, 09:31:57 PM
You know, it doesn't bother me that someone had a ball and wouldn't let me play with it... but when we all are sitting around talking about how much we miss playing ball and then someone in the group goes home and plays with their ball, that kinda gets me.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 16, 2019, 09:45:46 PM
Didn't Starwars Galaxies (was it?) that had a 'leak' of code from Sony themselves?  And they left the 'Starwars' community to 'get on with it?'

Yes I am playing on three of those servers. Swglegends is celebrating its 3rd year anniversary now.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MWRuger on April 16, 2019, 09:54:41 PM

As I have said many, many times, I just want to play COH before I die. I honestly don't care how this happens, just so it does.

This news changes nothing except now we know there is code out there when we all thought there wasn't.

Am I jealous? No, at least someone is getting to play and maybe someday it will be me.

Do I feel betrayed? Yes by NCSoft, not SCORE.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 16, 2019, 10:15:52 PM
And there are people with the ability to give this to you, right now, at no extreme cost to themselves.

I don’t want to get my hopes up too high... but I think something good will have to come from this in order for the community to recover.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 16, 2019, 10:16:55 PM
I guess my thoughts are that we can condemn those with the code or try to persuade them.

I ask for total amnesty - the cat is out of the bag - time to let the past stay there and try for a good future.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 16, 2019, 10:18:45 PM
Ironwolf...I pop in to see the latest and you are here! Honestly I hadn’t seen your name in so long I thought you were done here or worse.

[Edit: Well, that got dark... --TonyV]
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 16, 2019, 10:31:52 PM
I don’t want to get my hopes up too high... but I think something good will have to come from this in order for the community to recover.

I would love this, too. I just think that we should push that doing this is basically what they always should have done, not act like we're kissing up to them to get something we really want but have no reason to have. We're the community. All of us.

I will treat them like part of that community when they treat US like that.

Kistulot hit the nail on the head.  It could be everyone, instead It's only who they deem worthy.

Thanks :)

Now, they could show they've turned over a new leaf... and it'd be real easy!

I guess my thoughts are that we can condemn those with the code or try to persuade them.

I ask for total amnesty - the cat is out of the bag - time to let the past stay there and try for a good future.

My ask is that they do good, and then, ya know what?

I'll not only forgive them, I will thank them for having stress tested it. I'm just not the kind of person who feels we should act like everythings great. Welcome them back into the community when they put up front, basically.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Aurora on April 16, 2019, 10:51:57 PM
Reread the pcgamer article. Leandro updated it. https://www.pcgamer.com/a-fully-functioning-city-of-heroes-private-server-has-somehow-been-kept-secret-for-six-years/
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 16, 2019, 10:59:07 PM
I completely feel bad that anyone would ever send anyone a death threat...

But they're really not doing us any good by not sharing the data. Just anonymously post it up on a torrent site or something. Spread the data around.

It currently has things that weren't even originally in the game on the public servers... there is no excuse now, and claiming they were going to do it in just a few weeks if no one said anything?

Put your damn money where your mouth is.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 11:08:06 PM
Death threats are inexcusable but claiming it was going to be released in a couple weeks but now isn't going to be isn't very believable. If anything, its more of a reason to do it sooner.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 16, 2019, 11:12:09 PM
A part of me snickered and got a thought of "hey, how about we hail mary them by emailing them a bunch of pictures of capes to hope they actually follow through" but there's no way that wouldn't just be abuse, and just like death threats, I won't condone outright harassment.

That really cant be overstated. These people don't need to be hounded, or threatened.

We just also don't need to believe them when they say nice things like this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 16, 2019, 11:16:23 PM
Reread the pcgamer article. Leandro updated it. https://www.pcgamer.com/a-fully-functioning-city-of-heroes-private-server-has-somehow-been-kept-secret-for-six-years/

The best part of that article -- NCSoft neglected to comment on this story.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 16, 2019, 11:34:25 PM
[Edit: Removed quoted message]

It's not even any of our faults.

I

1) Never sent threats
2) Heard about a private server as a rumor but never sought it out
3) Only ever wanted to play CoX again

It's the "fault" of someone none of us were even involved with in the decision being made to go public... but hey, prove me wrong SCORE, release it.

Even if we only get what you have, it seems to have MORE FEATURES than i24 had...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 16, 2019, 11:35:44 PM
I was being sarcastic :p but i think you know that, just need to clarify in case!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on April 16, 2019, 11:37:56 PM
Reread the pcgamer article. Leandro updated it. https://www.pcgamer.com/a-fully-functioning-city-of-heroes-private-server-has-somehow-been-kept-secret-for-six-years/

I am angry and saddened by the news that I might not be able to play my characters. With that said, to make threats to someone is inexcusable. Yes it sucks, yes people can be mad, but to threaten someone. No. :(
The only chance I have now to play, is slim to none (I am still hoping for some kind of deal for the buyers.). We are heroes and villains we need to do better. (I know villains dont normally do better. There have been instances where they did.) :)

@Golden "The best part of that article -- NCSoft neglected to comment on this story." Yea I read that too. Which means there are two things that come to mind. One they dont care. Or two they cant comment on due to legal reasons.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Brigadine on April 16, 2019, 11:41:41 PM
The best part of that article -- NCSoft neglected to comment on this story.
I hope that means something. Say they might actually sell to someone. They didn't announce legal action and I find that interesting.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 16, 2019, 11:50:59 PM
Man, these "We were gonna do X but not now because you all ruined it" is just so reminiscent of aspects of domestic abuse it's amazing.

It seems awfully conveniently that Willa Wonka was just in discussions to let the villagers into the Chocolate Factory after years of a select few getting to play it, but I can understand how many the significance of the date was an impetus for the plans.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 16, 2019, 11:51:04 PM
There is also a considerable time difference between here (the USA) and their headquarters.   You may wake up to learn NCSOFT is going for the nuclear option.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Dev7on on April 16, 2019, 11:54:46 PM
I don't know what to say right now.... I'm speechless.......
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 16, 2019, 11:54:55 PM
I am angry and saddened by the news that I might not be able to play my characters. With that said, to make threats to someone is inexcusable. Yes it sucks, yes people can be mad, but to threaten someone. No. :(

There's no point in even trying to explain rationally how death threats are bad. The people who do it are not intelligent or rational. Over the past decade, how much press has been directed at death threats, how many stories about it have been used to paint entire communities in a poor light over the actions of a handful of people.

Any rational person knows death threats do nothing, absolutely nothing, but hurt their own cause that motivated them in the first place. This has been well established over years and years of the internet and yet idiots still do it. If countless news articles and media coverage and just the results based evidence can't convince them that it's wrong, no one from any community is going to be able to convince them that it's wrong.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: powerfuse on April 17, 2019, 12:01:19 AM
I hope that means something. Say they might actually sell to someone. They didn't announce legal action and I find that interesting.

Except now any potential buyer knows that people out there have the code and can make their own servers which lowers NCSoft’s selling power immensely
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: beak on April 17, 2019, 12:07:31 AM
I got a DM last night that will blow this whole thing wide open.   





this what happened in the last game i played hackers ruined it for everyone dupin rares and gold and just anything to cheat there no extened maintenance there trying to catch the hacker  and we pay for it so unless people don't let GM'S know of wrong doing's in the game it we ruin it and there we not be a COH IT WELL BE GONE TO THE AMERICANS!!!!!!!





This is how it start's jerk hacking (dupin)
 

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Voltixdark on April 17, 2019, 12:16:52 AM
Hey Guys!

I know everyone is angry and can understand your pain, but we as a community need to stand up. Be happy that not only do we finally have a confirmed fully fledged working game, but our old account data with our characters are safe and alive!!! I don't know how the rest of you feel about that, but for me I am pretty damn stoked. There is finally a chance for all of us to play again. I honestly can't wait to be either invited or for a public release. Thank you Leandro!

I also want to mention that Leandro has updated the article on PCgamer and it looks like something is on the way with the upcoming 15th anniversary public event just next week. Sounds like something good is coming out of that!

One last thing.. Please guys do not act stupid and start threatening peoples lives with ultimatums and death threats. It is not that serious for someone to lose their life over something virtual. This game cannot sustain you in the real world. It does not pay your bills, put food on the table, or even put breath in your mouth. Personally I thank the one above for that. All in all please let us all come down to a level where we can start to work together even though we may not be devs or anything of the sort lets keep it positive!

Something is on the way. Keep your heads up!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 12:24:58 AM
Hey Guys!

I know everyone is angry and can understand your pain, but we as a community need to stand up. Be happy that not only do we finally have a confirmed fully fledged working game, but our old account data with our characters are safe and alive!!! I don't know how the rest of you feel about that, but for me I am pretty damn stoked. There is finally a chance for all of us to play again. I honestly can't wait to be either invited or for a public release. Thank you Leandro!

I also want to mention that Leandro has updated the article on PCgamer and it looks like something is on the way with the upcoming 15th anniversary public event just next week. Sounds like something good is coming out of that!

One last thing.. Please guys do not act stupid and start threatening peoples lives with ultimatums and death threats. It is not that serious for someone to lose their life over something virtual. This game cannot sustain you in the real world. It does not pay your bills, put food on the table, or even put breath in your mouth. Personally I thank the one above for that. All in all please let us all come down to a level where we can start to work together even though we may not be devs or anything of the sort lets keep it positive!

Something is on the way. Keep your heads up!

He stated in quotes for other articles that these plans have been scrapped and any potential plans for anyone else touching the game have been pushed back significantly because of recent events.

So now not only are we aware that we could be playing a game we've had no access to for years, but it's also now our faults that we won't be accessing it anytime soon. :|

All of which is basically just insult to injury. I personally do not think we will ever touch this game, the longer it gets hoarded beyond this point where it is public knowledge and multiple press outlets have contact NCSoft putting it further on their radar, the less likely it is that we will get our hands on it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 17, 2019, 12:34:10 AM
On a slightly different note. Any chance of shooting the Sentinel stats to the Mids team now that the cat's out of the bag? :D
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Voltixdark on April 17, 2019, 12:34:36 AM
He stated in quotes for other articles that these plans have been scrapped and any potential plans for anyone else touching the game have been pushed back significantly because of recent events.

So now not only are we aware that we could be playing a game we've had no access to for years, but it's also now our faults that we won't be accessing it anytime soon. :|

All of which is basically just insult to injury. I personally do not think we will ever touch this game, the longer it gets hoarded beyond this point where it is public knowledge and multiple press outlets have contact NCSoft putting it further on their radar, the less likely it is that we will get our hands on it.

I think you need to go back and read the article. Here is what Leandro said in the 6th paragragh

"Leandro clarified that while the SCORE server wouldn't be made public, eventually the source code behind it would be. Because of the legal risk once the project was made public, Leandro says the team has pushed back a release in order to get it as feature-complete as possible."

And was stated in the article in quotes

"The last discussion on an open event leading to a public release was for the game's 15th Anniversary, which is coming in just a couple of weeks."

To me something is coming. Don't throw all your hope out. There is still light!

Thanks
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 12:36:33 AM
I think you need to go back and read the article. Here is what Leandro said in the 6th paragragh

"Leandro clarified that while the SCORE server wouldn't be made public, eventually the source code behind it would be. Because of the legal risk once the project was made public, Leandro says the team has pushed back a release in order to get it as feature-complete as possible."

And was stated in the article in quotes

"The last discussion on an open event leading to a public release was for the game's 15th Anniversary, which is coming in just a couple of weeks."

To me something is coming. Don't throw all your hope out. There is still light!

Thanks

Feature complete, you mean like the sentinel archtype and other stuff that was never in the game? Flimsy excuse.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Exercitus on April 17, 2019, 12:40:39 AM
So I’ve spent the last few hours trying to process this news.

As it stands now, yes, part of me is happy that the game code and data still exist somewhere.

However, a much larger part of me is very unhappy to learn that its in the hands of a LITERAL SECRET CABAL that has been using it to play the game for the last six years while keeping the rest of us in the dark.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 12:50:25 AM
We all know CoX could never be feature complete.  We'd always want more.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 17, 2019, 01:08:32 AM
I understand your rage, but everyone deserves a chance to defend themselves. We've already seen Victoria do so and then she was accused of lying by the leaker. The others have yet to respond. I never posted here a lot, honestly talking about the game outside of my min/max circle was frustrating more than it wasn't lol, but it was the go-to this entire time.

For obvious reasons, don't expect to hear from Leandro anytime soon on here.  Even if he wanted to, we're not interested in harboring a discussion that will be akin to public execution, regardless who it is.  TonyV made as official a statement as we're going to make several posts back.  That's all we have to say at the moment from Titan Network.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 17, 2019, 01:11:04 AM
You know as I ponder this - I am curious how much was charged to the select few?

With as they say roughly 2,000 players in the know - what was the fee? I am just doing the math and at $10 a pop that's $20k a month.........

There was a screenshot of the private server's forums with money info... there was $8k in the coffers for a few months worth (or near that, as I recall, the screenshot is on the SEGS discord). So yeah, there was money involved, but the screenshot made it seem to me like the $ was actually being used exclusively for server fees, and not to line pockets.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Aurora on April 17, 2019, 01:12:51 AM
All I have to say is I hope Leandro does the ethical thing and is well. I saw the death threat email screenshot.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: bugzee on April 17, 2019, 01:29:02 AM
Well, now that NCSoft has been asked for comment, they are fully aware... And with Leandro's name out there, it would be a very bad move for him to make any of the code public at this time. He could have released it into the public domain in the beginning, but chose to keep it for himself and his friends instead. I think it is too late for it to be given out. If he were to do that now, you can bet he would be in some serious legal hot water. I don't know what NCSoft will do now, but I am sure of one thing: Leandro never intended to give the code to anyone else, and now its simply too late to do so. In my opinion, we are no better off than we were before the news broke. We weren't going to be able to play then, and most certainly we will not be allowed to play now.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 01:31:30 AM
Well, now that NCSoft has been asked for comment, they are fully aware... And with Leandro's name out there, it would be a very bad move for him to make any of the code public at this time. He could have released it into the public domain in the beginning, but chose to keep it for himself and his friends instead. I think it is too late for it to be given out. If he were to do that now, you can bet he would be in some serious legal hot water. I don't know what NCSoft will do now, but I am sure of one thing: Leandro never intended to give the code to anyone else, and now its simply too late to do so. In my opinion, we are no better off than we were before the news broke. We weren't going to be able to play then, and most certainly we will not be allowed to play now.

The only thing this did was cause pain and distrust. I don't think its too late to release code though. They haven't been told anything (yet). Theres also no way to prove anything through VPN's and anon torrents.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 01:35:51 AM
Quote
[Edit: Post removed]

And there's the thread, made back in 2013, of someone inparticular outright saying why we wouldn't have server emulation.

There's a lot of lying going on here.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 02:00:41 AM
There was a screenshot of the private server's forums with money info... there was $8k in the coffers for a few months worth (or near that, as I recall, the screenshot is on the SEGS discord). So yeah, there was money involved, but the screenshot made it seem to me like the $ was actually being used exclusively for server fees, and not to line pockets.

Also in that screen shot was a reference to people extending invitations to their entire supergroups who then never signed on or only played a little bit -- which was Leandro complaining that what he needed were quality players... in other words the kinds of complaints a DEVELOPER is making when doing TESTING. 

Long ago I jokingly said in a SCoRE discussion that as soon as they let anybody know they're making progress their reward will be a flood of abuse about how they aren't moving fast enough or developing what THEY want. 

Leandro and others have been running a server that they've been modifying, completing, and (HOPEFULLY) is in a form where you don't need to stitch 5 different servers together with mod authority and deep code knowledge to get it to run. (HOPEFULLY??? since by all accounts damn few experts could get a CoX server system to work).

In that process they've been running a few hundred (a few thousand?) users ... hundreds concurrently while SCoRE did exactly what they've always said they were doing.  They haven't shared earlier versions of their code publicly (we have no idea how many people or institutions are sitting on copies)

Just as I've thanked Codewalker for all his contributions to the community, thank you to Leandro for this MASSIVE gift to the community and thank you to all the SCoRE participants.

An additional thanks to Leandro for being willing to take the heat and unimaginable undeserved abuse on this.  I very much look forward to seeing what you folks have done and will do.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 17, 2019, 02:01:08 AM
Once I get started I may not be able to stop.  To say that I have conflicted emotions about this would be an understatement.

Rumors about a rogue server have been floating around for years.  Some, who have indicated that they knew what they were talking about, derided the idea.  Frankly, I always believed that where there was smoke there was fire.

So, finally, six years after the fact, we learn that a copy of the server code was offered to a gamer/administrator or whatever the heck he was.  And he took it.  Set up his own server, and secretly began inviting friends and family members to play on it.

Now, while I can understand why they kept it quiet, namely to keep NCSofts' lawyers off of their backs, I cannot understand their justification of keeping the game all to themselves.

So, the players who signed onto it also agreed to an NDA.  This worked pretty well, until one of the players, Destroyer Stroyer, disturbed by the setup, decided to do the right thing, and blew the whistle.  God Bless Him.

Now, as to Leandro, haven't I seen that name on this forum, and in this thread?  My memory may be playing tricks on me, but if that is the case, that really ticks me off.  A non-sequitur maybe.  His statement that they were set to release the code in two weeks has a distinct odor about it.  For instance, I've watched Destroyer's videos where he was playing the game, and a few things seen in them belies Leandro's claim:  First, there is visual confirmation that the code has already been modified and "upgraded";  Secondly, the people in that video were having a blast;  Thirdly, if he were serious about releasing the code to the community and the public he could have done so years ago.  Way to "hold the torch" fella.

Having said all that, I really can't see how this helps the COH community at large.  Maybe Leandro will release the code.  Once it's out there in the virtual world NCSoft will not ever get control of it back.  If he doesn't we're back to square one.



Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 02:03:02 AM
Also in that screen shot was a reference to people extending invitations to their entire supergroups who then never signed on or only played a little bit -- which was Leandro complaining that what he needed were quality players... in other words the kinds of complaints a DEVELOPER is making when doing TESTING. 

Long ago I jokingly said in a SCoRE discussion that as soon as they let anybody know they're making progress their reward will be a flood of abuse about how they aren't moving fast enough or developing what THEY want. 

Leandro and others have been running a server that they've been modifying, completing, and (HOPEFULLY) is in a form where you don't need to stitch 5 different servers together with mod authority and deep code knowledge to get it to run. (HOPEFULLY??? since by all accounts damn few experts could get a CoX server system to work).

In that process they've been running a few hundred (a few thousand?) users ... hundreds concurrently while SCoRE did exactly what they've always said they were doing.  They haven't shared earlier versions of their code publicly (we have no idea how many people or institutions are sitting on copies)

Just as I've thanked Codewalker for all his contributions to the community, thank you to Leandro for this MASSIVE gift to the community and thank you to all the SCoRE participants.

An additional thanks to Leandro for being willing to take the heat and unimaginable undeserved abuse on this.  I very much look forward to seeing what you folks have done and will do.

^ is this post going to be the new copypasta so we can all hopefully get pity invites from the first class citizens who've been enjoying CoX for the last 6 years?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: DoctorRoboto on April 17, 2019, 02:05:29 AM
*sigh*

The plot, as it seems, is almost nefarious enough to be one of mine!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 17, 2019, 02:08:17 AM
The ultimate Nemesis Plot.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 02:09:43 AM
Also in that screen shot was a reference to people extending invitations to their entire supergroups who then never signed on or only played a little bit -- which was Leandro complaining that what he needed were quality players... in other words the kinds of complaints a DEVELOPER is making when doing TESTING. 

Long ago I jokingly said in a SCoRE discussion that as soon as they let anybody know they're making progress their reward will be a flood of abuse about how they aren't moving fast enough or developing what THEY want. 

Leandro and others have been running a server that they've been modifying, completing, and (HOPEFULLY) is in a form where you don't need to stitch 5 different servers together with mod authority and deep code knowledge to get it to run. (HOPEFULLY??? since by all accounts damn few experts could get a CoX server system to work).

In that process they've been running a few hundred (a few thousand?) users ... hundreds concurrently while SCoRE did exactly what they've always said they were doing.  They haven't shared earlier versions of their code publicly (we have no idea how many people or institutions are sitting on copies)

Just as I've thanked Codewalker for all his contributions to the community, thank you to Leandro for this MASSIVE gift to the community and thank you to all the SCoRE participants.

An additional thanks to Leandro for being willing to take the heat and unimaginable undeserved abuse on this.  I very much look forward to seeing what you folks have done and will do.

This post seems very misleading or at the very least misinformed. I'll try and break it down.

Quote
DEVELOPER is making when doing TESTING. 

When you're still in testing phases to make servers work, you don't create and insert brand new archetypes and zones, abilities, or cash shops. To say that this project is still in development o the point of the servers being "stitched together" would be silly and expecting people to believe it even more so.

Quote
Leandro and others have been running a server that they've been modifying, completing, and (HOPEFULLY) is in a form where you don't need to stitch 5 different servers together with mod authority and deep code knowledge to get it to run. (HOPEFULLY??? since by all accounts damn few experts could get a CoX server system to work).
  This is a bold claim. A very bold claim that someone who isn't in the forums and on the server couldn't possibly make. From other accounts, leaks etc the server is not stitched together and works perfectly. I'm unsure how or why you've made this claim but again, if you aren't on the team this seems like a very misleading assumption.

Quote
An additional thanks to Leandro for being willing to take the heat and unimaginable undeserved abuse on this.  I very much look forward to seeing what you folks have done and will do.

He's getting a lot of unwarranted stuff, death threats and doxing being the worst of it. However from the information provided to us, the lies and misleading campaigns to derail progress have earned him heat. His continued dishonesty and deflecting the blame onto the community as a whole didn't help. I'm not willing to personally attack anybody but I think your post is very misguided.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 02:17:18 AM

... I retire in August and would be happy to try hosting a wide open server that could test the limits of NCSofts patience
 

Really.  You're going to run a wide open server.  And you'll let everybody on.  10,000 users... 50,000 users... nobody turned away?  And you know the servers will handle that?  You're going to set up the servers and keep them running?  You're going to handle support and maintenance? If it can't handle the load you're going to decide when and how to turn people away?

Leandro is an expert who has lived this stuff, and his development system was running a few hundred accounts concurrently (which is DAMN impressive).  How easy do you think it is to run CoX?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 02:20:20 AM
Really.  You're going to run a wide open server.  And you'll let everybody on.  10,000 users... 50,000 users... nobody turned away?  And you know the servers will handle that?  You're going to set up the servers and keep them running?  You're going to handle support and maintenance? If it can't handle the load you're going to decide when and how to turn people away?

Leandro is an expert who has lived this stuff, and his development system was running a few hundred accounts concurrently (which is DAMN impressive).  How easy do you think it is to run CoX?


Very easy. Do you not know about private servers? Also, in what world would 50k people play on a private server. WoW private servers don't even reach that. People can run private servers from their home PC's, but thats not whats being done here. He's renting server space and running it on that, which most would probably do. Please my man, don't post such misleading stuff.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Voltixdark on April 17, 2019, 02:22:04 AM
Also in that screen shot was a reference to people extending invitations to their entire supergroups who then never signed on or only played a little bit -- which was Leandro complaining that what he needed were quality players... in other words the kinds of complaints a DEVELOPER is making when doing TESTING. 

Long ago I jokingly said in a SCoRE discussion that as soon as they let anybody know they're making progress their reward will be a flood of abuse about how they aren't moving fast enough or developing what THEY want. 

Leandro and others have been running a server that they've been modifying, completing, and (HOPEFULLY) is in a form where you don't need to stitch 5 different servers together with mod authority and deep code knowledge to get it to run. (HOPEFULLY??? since by all accounts damn few experts could get a CoX server system to work).

In that process they've been running a few hundred (a few thousand?) users ... hundreds concurrently while SCoRE did exactly what they've always said they were doing.  They haven't shared earlier versions of their code publicly (we have no idea how many people or institutions are sitting on copies)

Just as I've thanked Codewalker for all his contributions to the community, thank you to Leandro for this MASSIVE gift to the community and thank you to all the SCoRE participants.

An additional thanks to Leandro for being willing to take the heat and unimaginable undeserved abuse on this.  I very much look forward to seeing what you folks have done and will do.

I agree, and I also look forward to the progress made.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 02:22:23 AM
Who's going to upgrade the Paragon Wiki to cover all these unofficial modifications to the game?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 02:23:18 AM
Quote
[Edit: Post removed]

I take it you don't use Tequila
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 17, 2019, 02:23:34 AM
O hai! What's new?

Read the news today. What a disaster. Prayers and thoughts go to the people of France! No wait, the disaster was reddit/cityofheroes. Wow. Take the angriest post here so far in this thread and multiply it by a thousand and you get the average anger level there.

But what really bothers me about this is Leo never invited me!!

Just kidding. What really bothers me is all the anniversary badges I missed.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 02:25:27 AM
Theres a whole slew of people using terms like "You don't understand" or "You're just trolls" very suddenly. Everyone has the right to their opinion on this matter as long as its kept civil and i think everyone here (except that one guy who said ban him) has done so. This is all starting to feel a lot like another effort to discredit.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 17, 2019, 02:25:49 AM
Who's going to upgrade the Paragon Wiki to cover all these unofficial modifications to the game?

I volunteer to edit that person's grammar!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 17, 2019, 02:26:33 AM
And there's the thread, made back in 2013, of someone inparticular outright saying why we wouldn't have server emulation.

There's a lot of lying going on here.

Need to reread that thread, as it explains that emulation isn't even something we should want. The private server's not an emulation, the hopefully soon-to-be-public code isn't an emulation. Knowing what we know now and looking back at that thread it seems to me Leandro was being quite careful not to mislead.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 02:27:27 AM
What really bothers me is all the anniversary badges I missed.

What bother's me is that we almost certainly helped name them.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 02:27:44 AM
Need to reread that thread, as it explains that emulation isn't even something we should want. The private server's not an emulation, the hopefully soon-to-be-public code isn't an emulation. Knowing what we know now and looking back at that thread it seems to me Leandro was being quite careful not to mislead.

TOO CAREFUL! jk but yeah no emulation isn't what would be right for a CoH server.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Voltixdark on April 17, 2019, 02:27:50 AM
O hai! What's new?

Read the news today. What a disaster. Prayers and thoughts go to the people of France! No wait, the disaster was reddit/cityofheroes. Wow. Take the angriest post here so far in this thread and multiply it by a thousand and you get the average anger level there.

But what really bothers me about this is Leo never invited me!!

Just kidding. What really bothers me is all the anniversary badges I missed.

You know I do wonder if anniversary badges would have continued to be earned for being active and such.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 02:27:53 AM
Another example is Kistulot mocking the thread from 2013 by Leandro regarding why the community wouldn't want a server *emulator*.   If one were to re-read it with a cooler,  rational mind, it would be very clear to see it wan't gaslighting, but a very articulate vision statement.

When that's all he said on the subject, and then has had this for six years, I don't care if it was accurate, it's him being just great to all of us.

But thanks for calling me a troll who has no investment.

Theres a whole slew of people using terms like "You don't understand" or "You're just trolls" very suddenly. Everyone has the right to their opinion on this matter as long as its kept civil and i think everyone here (except that one guy who said ban him) has done so. This is all starting to feel a lot like another effort to discredit.

This this this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 02:27:59 AM
I volunteer to edit that person's grammar!

Educate me!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 02:29:16 AM
The other big news today was the Avengers data dump.   
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 02:30:14 AM

 From other accounts, leaks etc the server is not stitched together and works perfectly. I'm unsure how or why you've made this claim but again, if you aren't on the team this seems like a very misleading assumption.


Well if the server is not stitched together and works perfectly... THEN IT'S NOT THE SYSTEM PARAGON STUDIOS WAS RUNNING.  We know from the extensive discussions from people who worked on those systems that they were multiple systems tied into each other with weird patches to make different features work.  If Leandro has a simple server that runs the game then it really IS completely reverse engineered and not something he got leaked by somebody who worked for NCSoft.   
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 17, 2019, 02:32:12 AM


When you're still in testing phases to make servers work, you don't create and insert brand new archetypes and zones, abilities, or cash shops. To say that this project is still in development o the point of the servers being "stitched together" would be silly and expecting people to believe it even more so.


I'm not a programmer but I'd imagine if you're working to create a better server client that would allow for new things to be added you'd first want to figure out how the original client dealt with new things.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 02:32:53 AM
Well if the server is not stitched together and works perfectly... THEN IT'S NOT THE SYSTEM PARAGON STUDIOS WAS RUNNING.  We know from the extensive discussions from people who worked on those systems that they were multiple systems tied into each other with weird patches to make different features work.  If Leandro has a simple server that runs the game then it really IS completely reverse engineered and not something he got leaked by somebody who worked for NCSoft.

I'm unsure if anyone has made the claim he's done nothing. Of course he reverse engineered the code. Of course he's probably put a lot of time and effort into making it operational. The problem people have is they want him to release his code so everyone else can play too.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 02:35:56 AM
I'm not a programmer but I'd imagine if you're working to create a better server client that would allow for new things to be added you'd first want to figure out how the original client dealt with new things.

Maybe. Guess we won't know for sure because its a closed development for the last 6 years. We only have information provided by a leak and in that information it sure didn't look like it was still a WIP.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 02:39:56 AM
Maybe. Guess we won't know for sure because its a closed development for the last 6 years. We only have information provided by a leak and in that information it sure didn't look like it was still a WIP.

People I've talked to said it was fully functional, they just got bored of not having their friends on the server.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: P51mus on April 17, 2019, 02:42:46 AM
Really.  You're going to run a wide open server.  And you'll let everybody on.  10,000 users... 50,000 users... nobody turned away?  And you know the servers will handle that?  You're going to set up the servers and keep them running?  You're going to handle support and maintenance? If it can't handle the load you're going to decide when and how to turn people away?

Leandro is an expert who has lived this stuff, and his development system was running a few hundred accounts concurrently (which is DAMN impressive).  How easy do you think it is to run CoX?

See, thing is, if the code were more openly available there'd be a bunch of private servers running.  Some of them would be open, some of them would be more private.  It wouldn't just be one person running a server.  That's how most private servers for MMOs are.

And if it was anything like what I know about the Ragnarok Online private server community (my info on this is way out of date), then they'd be sharing tweaks they've made among the private servers so that any fixes one person made could be used by others.  (At the time there were actually two different types of private servers for RO, one that was an emulated server and another that was based off of leaked/hacked official server code)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 02:43:42 AM

See,  this is the kind of cynical comment from several people in the last few pages of this thread that have convinced me there are some here actively trolling the community, or have become "useful idiots" to those trolls.   


Another example is Kistulot mocking the thread from 2013 by Leandro regarding why the community wouldn't want a server *emulator*.   If one were to re-read it with a cooler,  rational mind, it would be very clear to see it wan't gaslighting, but a very articulate vision statement.


Unfortunately,  I think some are preying on the pain of the CoH community for fun,  fanning the flames of discontent and conspiracy in a 4chan-esque manner.  I appreciate the goals of the moderation team and don't envy their task,  but I think a lot more of these posts should be deleted.

Making a joke is not fanning the flames, it's making a joke.

I apologize for being cynical, but it's about all I can be because the entire situation is extremely cynical. It feels as though the overall CoX community has had a pretty clear caste system in play with what is more or less, a first class citizen group who invited who they deemed worth from the unwashed masses. It's frustrating to say the least.

There are aspects that I completely understand, and there are aspects of it that were extremely cynical on the part of those involved, such as people who are in the know about an actively working private server enforcing "no private server discussion" on forums and subreddits, people actively involved in running SCoRE being involved in other efforts that have existed as little more than a placating romparoom for the members of this community not deemed worthy of access to the actual game...

the entire thing is very cynical, from top to bottom, and I simply do not have access to the sort of medication that can help me see it differently, and let me make it clear, I don't think I've ever done anything worthy of being invited, I stopped participating in the community as a whole when the game died and only occasionally pop in to places like this and the subreddit to see if any of the emulation efforts have made any kind of encouraging progress and I'm almost routinely disappointed when I do. What bums me out is seeing people who have clearly been more active right on these very forums who didn't get the nod, that breaks my heart knowing that even if I was active still I likely couldn't have sat at the cool kids table for a MMO that I loved for many years and have spent nearly as many years missing it.

The most cynical aspect is the stuff where they've said "We were going to run a public event but you all ruined it by learning about us". That is... unbelievable in lieu of this entire meltdown.

So honestly my bad, but straight up, it's hard to respond to this with anything other than cynicism especially when you see people posting "Wow even though I can't play and I might not ever be able to play, at least SOMEONE was getting to enjoy the game!" comments, it just seems like pretty blatant brown nosing, and I can barely even blame them because it seems to be about the only realistic hope the majority of the displaced CoX fanbase may have of every playing again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on April 17, 2019, 02:47:50 AM
That is the problem isn't it.

When you have the chance to do something selfless or to keep it for yourself - what would you do? I think i would get a few people in the world of computing and have them make a launcher that could be hosted on a standard gaming server (www.serversaustralia.com.au/resources/blog/beginners-guide-to-setting-up-a-private-wow-server/) where you can normally rent them for about 1 American dollar per slot a month. If you wanted an entire server you might be able to work a discount.

Now what happens?

That is going to be up to NCSoft and the owners of the private server. If they want to contact me - I retire in August and would be happy to try hosting a wide open server that could test the limits of NCSofts patience and I would in fact have wide open books so they could see I make zero profit - but have a donation page that will give all extra funds beyond running expenses to them in a monthly check. This MIGHT allow some leeway on our behalf.

That would be awesome, one suggestion. If you do manage to host, please dont use Tequila as a way to distribute the launcher. I would suggest GitHub. Just an idea. Also good luck with retiring you earned it :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 02:48:17 AM
Cynicism is what sets us apart from the other animals, except for cats, I think cynicism drives their every action.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 17, 2019, 03:01:11 AM
How easy do you think it is to run CoX?

Dunno. Maybe if they spread the code I'll let you know once I see it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 03:07:10 AM
Dunno. Maybe if they spread the code I'll let you know once I see it.

THIS, because you know who would try to figure it out?

All of us, even without any base knowledge.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 17, 2019, 03:10:13 AM
Hi. You probably don't know me. I'm a loudmouth.

The only bitterness this news has brought up is renewed bitterness at NCSoft for their petty refusal to sell an IP they had deemed not worth using to a team who very much saw it as worthwhile. CoX was turning a profit - it's why Paragon Studios wanted to keep it running so badly - and we're still not really sure why they shut down the game. Maybe they thought the profit wouldn't last long enough. Maybe Positron insulted their CEO. Maybe they wanted to use the server infrastructure for Guild Wars 2. We still don't know.

But refusing to sell a product you have deemed valueless to someone else that wants it is just petty.

Copyright law is a mess, and everyone going around saying NCSoft "owns" this and that is playing into corporate hands. Copyright was never meant to exist in the state it currently does, and it does a disservice to humanity as a whole when faceless entities can keep people from creating things they love, especially when they do it for no rational reason. If you don't want it, you should release it, not lock it away forever.

Let's direct our ire where it belongs: at NCSoft, who put us all in the position we're in in the first place.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 03:11:27 AM
Hi. You probably don't know me. I'm a loudmouth.

The only bitterness this news has brought up is renewed bitterness at NCSoft for their petty refusal to sell an IP they had deemed not worth using to a team who very much saw it as worthwhile. CoX was turning a profit - it's why Paragon Studios wanted to keep it running so badly - and we're still not really sure why they shut down the game. Maybe they thought the profit wouldn't last long enough. Maybe Positron insulted their CEO. Maybe they wanted to use the server infrastructure for Guild Wars 2. We still don't know.

But refusing to sell a product you have deemed valueless to someone else that wants it is just petty.

Copyright law is a mess, and everyone going around saying NCSoft "owns" this and that is playing into corporate hands. Copyright was never meant to exist in the state it currently does, and it does a disservice to humanity as a whole when faceless entities can keep people from creating things they love, especially when they do it for no rational reason. If you don't want it, you should release it, not lock it away forever.

Let's direct our ire where it belongs: at NCSoft, who put us all in the position we're in in the first place.

Everything that can be said about NCsoft has been said. It's a moot point and not worth the time. We have new problems, new people, and new pain.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Aurora on April 17, 2019, 03:16:44 AM
I wouldn't normally post here on this, but this is important.
https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/16/leaderboard-where-do-you-stand-on-the-secret-city-of-heroes-emulator/

It's a poll to say what you want done with the code/situation.

Leandro wrote beneath (in the comments on the page):
Leandro Pardini
Thanks for this poll, Bree. It is the kind of community discussion that I wanted to see, rather than what’s going on elsewhere. I will not be posting replies, but I am watching the results with great interest.


Unlike the last election, I voted on this issue. You shoudl too. You should get your friends to also.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 17, 2019, 03:20:40 AM
That's also totally erroneous. The kind of community discussion concerning the private server he wanted to see was 0, as has been well documented.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 17, 2019, 03:24:22 AM
Everything that can be said about NCsoft has been said. It's a moot point and not worth the time. We have new problems, new people, and new pain.
Maybe for those that have dwelt here continuously for the past seven years. Not so much for those this news may bring back.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 03:25:21 AM
People I've talked to said it was fully functional, they just got bored of not having their friends on the server.

Awesome!!!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 03:26:47 AM
I wouldn't normally post here on this, but this is important.
https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/16/leaderboard-where-do-you-stand-on-the-secret-city-of-heroes-emulator/

It's a poll to say what you want done with the code/situation.

Leandro wrote beneath (in the comments on the page):
Leandro Pardini
Thanks for this poll, Bree. It is the kind of community discussion that I wanted to see, rather than what’s going on elsewhere. I will not be posting replies, but I am watching the results with great interest.

Unlike the last election, I voted on this issue. You shoudl too. You should get your friends to also.

This goes back to what I said a few pages ago, it's the complete and utter lack of empathy that is so disappointing. I understand his position to a certain degree and I can definitely understand that it's frustrating to see people basically calling for his head, but at the same time, with the amount of energy he's put into the game both before and after running his private little CoX world, can he really not understand where the anger and vitriol is coming from?

Is it that hard to step outside himself and imagine he hasn't been able to play the game for the last 6 years, to step outside himself and think about the countless players he's seen on places he has moderated at BEGGING to play the game again year after year, and understand why people are upset?

Is the disconnect between the SCoRE insiders and the CoX refugees really that wide?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 03:29:44 AM
Quote
Is the disconnect between the SCoRE insiders and the CoX refugees really that wide?


Walling off and being a few years seperated from being sad about coh being gone is a gigantic gap. So yeah, its pretty wide.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MM3squints on April 17, 2019, 03:34:24 AM
Honestly I'm impressed that it was kept secret for so long. Looking at the reddit and seeing all of the action steps and the amount of compartmentalization that was setup to keep this running is on another Machiavellian level. Reminds me of the steps an inteligence service will use to establish a presences before toppling over a sovereign nation.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 17, 2019, 03:35:37 AM
Going by the laborious video of the guy who just outed SCoRE, it seems there wasn't much actual playing. He presented the secret server as a bit of a ghost town, like those CoH servers of old where people complained they couldn't get a team or task force going. That's partly why he quit.

So... it sounds like the secret server was more like a Beta Server.

Remember how some players would rush to the Beta Server and then bitterly complain that the new content was unplayable because of bugs? They missed the point of the Beta Server... it wasn't to play new content but to *test* it.

I wonder if the secret server was more like that. And that if it had been released, whoever was hosting it would be inundated with complaints about the bits that weren't fully operational.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 17, 2019, 03:39:43 AM
You see it now appears that some of our players actually managed to kill the game.

NCSoft closed the game and then when a chance was presented for a few players to work on a way to preserve the game for others - they kept it secret for 6 years. I am not surprised some people refused to play the game if others couldn't - I would have been in that camp.

I would indeed try to run an "open" server where players just pay for the cost of operation. It might be fun to see if the group who were redoing the artwork could be given the code and make a COH/V 1.5 version. I guess I think of what could have been done in 6 years by a shared community and it seems quite wasted now.

You lost the rest of the team SCORE. We once were all in it together - now we sound like people I am not sure I want to share a server with.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 17, 2019, 04:08:44 AM
The anger will pass.  But trust may never be restored.  That will depend on the actions taken by Leandro and SCoRE.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 04:09:51 AM
Truth. To qoute a friend of mine on this situation. They gave us a photograph of steak while they had the actual meal

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: WolfSoul on April 17, 2019, 04:23:13 AM
The anger will pass.  But trust may never be restored.  That will depend on the actions taken by Leandro and SCoRE.

Yes. This.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 17, 2019, 04:39:29 AM
Very easy. Do you not know about private servers? Also, in what world would 50k people play on a private server. WoW private servers don't even reach that. People can run private servers from their home PC's, but thats not whats being done here. He's renting server space and running it on that, which most would probably do. Please my man, don't post such misleading stuff.

He's not misleading, and this is a pet peeve of mine; the rampant assumption that anyone could just snag a copy of the code and be off and running. I know several of the Paragon Studio devs, and because I'm geeky like this and at the time worked in a datacenter, I took every opportunity I could to grill them on the game's infrastructure while it was up and running. The computing muscle required to run City of Heroes was significant.

First of all, a lot of the code was spaghetti-ish, prone to breaking if you didn't have it tweaked just right. Just getting the thing running on ANY servers was, according to people who were professionally paid to do so, not easy.

Second of all, it's not like you just plopped coh.exe on a server and double-clicked the icon and voila, you can now log in. City of Heroes wasn't a server. Even a City of Heroes "server" (e.g. Infinity) wasn't a server. It was at least, to the best of my recollection:

All of this stuff required specific versions of software and libraries to run correctly, so you couldn't just click OK when Windows prompted you to update or upgrade. And all of this was spread across multiple physical high-end enterprise-scale boxes that had to have hardly-ever-looked-at configuration parameters and registry settings tweaked just-so to run.

Now, I get that the traffic on a private server may not be as heavy as on the live game servers, but it's not like just because it's a private server, now you don't need a market server, or you can do without a chat server, or that you don't have to have the exactly correct version of some database library installed. Even a base-level config for a single shard required a LOT of resources.

Having said all of that, I have no idea what progress SCoRE has made in simplifying this setup, or even if they've managed to make any progress towards it. Maybe one of the reasons they've kept it secret so long is so that when it is released, people can actually use it. Keep in mind that everything I described above is just to run the executables. If you actually want to tweak the code base, you get into a whole 'nother level of configuration hell in getting Visual Studio set up just right to be able to actually compile the thing.

At any rate, please don't propagate the misconception that the thing isn't a pain in the ass to run. Barring some next-level miraculous re-coding of how all of these tiny puzzle pieces without pictures or edges to guide them to give clues fit together, this thing was--and probably still is--a very, VERY demanding beast.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: P51mus on April 17, 2019, 04:48:38 AM
There's also been a lot of advances in server technology and how they run in the years since the game shut down. 

I dunno, from my mostly outsider view it looks like you might have had more trust in someone than he actually deserved.  We'll see I guess.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 04:48:46 AM
I'd like to call attention to other posts made on this topic, you qouted the first part of the convo but none of the follow up.

Quote
Of course he's probably put a lot of time and effort into making it operational. The problem people have is they want him to release his code so everyone else can play too.

Another post further down by p51

Quote
See, thing is, if the code were more openly available there'd be a bunch of private servers running.  Some of them would be open, some of them would be more private.  It wouldn't just be one person running a server.  That's how most private servers for MMOs are.

And if it was anything like what I know about the Ragnarok Online private server community (my info on this is way out of date), then they'd be sharing tweaks they've made among the private servers so that any fixes one person made could be used by others.  (At the time there were actually two different types of private servers for RO, one that was an emulated server and another that was based off of leaked/hacked official server code)


a follow up post by  TWI 
Quote
Dunno. Maybe if they spread the code I'll let you know once I see it.

Quick edit; you put a lot of no-brainers like "plopping the coh.exe down" that nobody claimed was the case. Dunno why you did this, but it wasn't a health way to explain anything. It's putting words in peoples mouths.

edit2: realized i sounded slightly hostile, wanted to fix

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 04:56:38 AM
Having said all of that, I have no idea what progress SCoRE has made in simplifying this setup, or even if they've managed to make any progress towards it. Maybe one of the reasons they've kept it secret so long is so that when it is released, people can actually use it. Keep in mind that everything I described above is just to run the executables. If you actually want to tweak the code base, you get into a whole 'nother level of configuration hell in getting Visual Studio set up just right to be able to actually compile the thing.

At any rate, please don't propagate the misconception that the thing isn't a pain in the ass to run. Barring some next-level miraculous re-coding of how all of these tiny puzzle pieces without pictures or edges to guide them to give clues fit together, this thing was--and probably still is--a very, VERY demanding beast.

I don't get it though, was it kept a tight lipped secret because they're afraid of NCSoft's legal eagles or was it kept a tight lipped secret because it's this painstaking WIP?

Even if they get it 110% playable, if they run the server population with an iron fist and live in constant fear of NCSoft's lawyers, what would it being playable change anything?

Would it being more playable somehow protect them from getting the business end of NCSoft's legal department?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 05:08:43 AM
At any rate, please don't propagate the misconception that the thing isn't a pain in the ass to run. Barring some next-level miraculous re-coding of how all of these tiny puzzle pieces without pictures or edges to guide them to give clues fit together, this thing was--and probably still is--a very, VERY demanding beast.

I'm not protesting the miracle.  I'm protesting what came after the miracle.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 17, 2019, 05:18:05 AM
I don't get it though, was it kept a tight lipped secret because they're afraid of NCSoft's legal eagles or was it kept a tight lipped secret because it's this painstaking WIP?

Even if they get it 110% playable, if they run the server population with an iron fist and live in constant fear of NCSoft's lawyers, what would it being playable change anything?

Would it being more playable somehow protect them from getting the business end of NCSoft's legal department?

I think what Tony is trying to say is that running a CoH server is not the same as running a WoW emulator repack that you just click a couple executables, change a file in your client to point to your server and bam it plays. So if Leandro is indeed running the actual CoH source and not an emulator of some sort, and just gave it out for anyone to use, most people aren't going to be able to do anything with it... at least not without a ton of time and effort blindly figuring things out... assuming they have enough technical expertise in the first place.

I know I don't have that level of expertise. Heck I can barely get a wow repack to work just to mess around in a sandbox and take cool screenshots.

This whole situation bothers me. I see all these people upset over this, heck I'm one of them, but I'm also rational enough not to just go for the pitchfork and torches without having all the information. We're only seeing half a story here and I'm not one to make judgements without all the facts. It also pains me to see people not only making death threats, but members of this community actively laughing about it and saying he deserves the threats. That's not the community I remember. That's not a community I want to even be a part of. So I hope that most of us remain rational. We can feel angry, we can feel hurt, we can feel betrayed, but we have to remember that we are all human beings, and also... we're supposed to be heroes here.

Heroes don't make, condone, or worse, celebrate, death threats against anyone no matter how bad they might be.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 17, 2019, 05:18:43 AM
snipping a big post

Yeah, I recall every ounce of what they said about the server infrastructure. I recall the lamenting of Aeon's concerning trying to get everything working just right to enable new scripting, I recall the complaints about spreadsheet hell, I recall them saying that it was all spaghetti code at best.

Seems to be working for someone right now though, don't it? Infact, it seems to have been working for them for quite a while! And who knows what more eyes on could've accomplished, it's not as if the MMO gaming world is exactly short on server infrastructure engineers or intrusion detection specialists.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: P51mus on April 17, 2019, 05:32:11 AM
I think what Tony is trying to say is that running a CoH server is not the same as running a WoW emulator repack that you just click a couple executables, change a file in your client to point to your server and bam it plays. So if Leandro is indeed running the actual CoH source and not an emulator of some sort, and just gave it out for anyone to use, most people aren't going to be able to do anything with it... at least not without a ton of time and effort blindly figuring things out... assuming they have enough technical expertise in the first place.

I know I don't have that level of expertise. Heck I can barely get a wow repack to work just to mess around in a sandbox and take cool screenshots.

There's people who will mess with this kind of thing for fun.  The person I knew who ran the RO private server I spent a small amount of time on was one of them.

You get enough of those kinds of people trying to get it running and sharing what they did with each other and suddenly you have solutions, and ways to get it working so that more people can try it.

Heck, I even corrected the hp/sp tables for the newer classes for him, and he probably shared that with the other people running RO private servers.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 17, 2019, 05:39:27 AM
There's people who will mess with this kind of thing for fun.  The person I knew who ran the RO private server I spent a small amount of time on was one of them.

You get enough of those kinds of people trying to get it running and sharing what they did with each other and suddenly you have solutions, and ways to get it working so that more people can try it.

Heck, I even corrected the hp/sp tables for the newer classes for him, and he probably shared that with the other people running RO private servers.

Like I said before, we've only got half a story here. I need more info before I dust off my pitchfork and light my torch. There's details we don't yet have. Maybe there's a reason the code wasn't just tossed out there for any and every coder to poke a stick at. I don't know. None of us do yet. Maybe all this attention will incentivize the SCORE team to provide some answers. This whole mess is in sore need of context.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Aurora on April 17, 2019, 05:42:54 AM
I don't think the average person wants Leandro to die or suffer harm. In any group ( Literally. Pick ANY group. ) there will be extremists who should NOT be counted as the voice of the community. The average person is pissed off and grieving anew. That's normal. That's natural. Would you consider JOSHEX the voice of this community? I think not.

Much the same as the person threatening to kill Leandro should not be considered the voice of this community. People are upset over the hubris and way this came out over the years.
The real question though is where do we go from here.

Was this it? The straw that broke our backs after God knows how many years of silence after failed negotiations? Is SEGS the only hope? The server exists. The data exists.
We don't know Leandro's intentions. This is on Tony as he was the contact with Leandro. He was supposed to be the voice here. This is his time to shine. Our game exists, more or less complete.

For the horrible things said about you, Tony, I'm sorry you had to read them. This is a very emotional and important moment for all of us. I wish you luck.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 17, 2019, 05:47:18 AM
I guess I will just wait and hope that cooler heads prevail. And... in my deepest, most secret heart of hope... pray that somehow this whole mess turns into all of us being able to play CoH again. I won't even care if I can't get my characters back. I can always start anew.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: P51mus on April 17, 2019, 05:52:04 AM
In some of the other discussion areas there's some weird people who think that literally every successor project and game recovery effort was some kind of smokescreen for this weird private server club. 

The only one we know for sure is connected is Paragon Chat, because Leandro worked on it. I dunno how much was meant as a smokescreen.

And I guess all the ACTUAL lieing that was done around this whole thing really gets the imaginations of the tinfoil hat crowd going.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 17, 2019, 05:53:05 AM
I guess I will just wait and hope that cooler heads prevail. And... in my deepest, most secret heart of hope... pray that somehow this whole mess turns into all of us being able to play CoH again. I won't even care if I can't get my characters back. I can always start anew.
Yeah I don't think anyone ever really cared about getting our characters back. That would simply be a bonus... but it appears that dev that was nice enough to hook them up with the server did want us to have everything back. That person deserves a life time supply of beer and back massages.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: hamstrdam on April 17, 2019, 05:58:25 AM
I guess I will just wait and hope that cooler heads prevail. And... in my deepest, most secret heart of hope... pray that somehow this whole mess turns into all of us being able to play CoH again. I won't even care if I can't get my characters back. I can always start anew.

Same here.  I don't have the time or energy to be pissed that someone has played for the last 6 years while I didn't, just would love the chance to play again.  (Although I do wonder how long it would take some of the people screaming for the game to be thrown open to start crying about how outdated the graphics seem?) Anyway, more power to the ones that are on the secret server.  I never sat at the cool kids table and still don't.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 17, 2019, 05:59:41 AM
In some of the other discussion areas there's some weird people who think that literally every successor project and game recovery effort was some kind of smokescreen for this weird private server club. 

The only one we know for sure is connected is Paragon Chat, because Leandro worked on it. I dunno how much was meant as a smokescreen.

And I guess all the ACTUAL lieing that was done around this whole thing really gets the imaginations of the tinfoil hat crowd going.
I don't think anyone is actually stupid enough to believe city of titans which is being funded out in the open on kickstarter was ever going to be used for anything but developing that game. Same goes for Valiance and the others.

Paragon chat I don't think i'd call it a "smoke screen" more like something to hold you over or to please those types that like to stand around all day under atlas and talk. I've personally found alot of use for icon and paragon chat for my story board recordings. Only remaining wish for paragon chat was a version of it that lets you use icons debug camera and load costume commands. Basically the icon exclusive stuff so I can stop using icon all together haha. I like the fact doors, walk and travel powers work and that I can login multiple characters to paragon chat so it opened up a few other opportunities for me
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 17, 2019, 06:39:24 AM
Quick edit; you put a lot of no-brainers like "plopping the coh.exe down" that nobody claimed was the case. Dunno why you did this, but it wasn't a health way to explain anything. It's putting words in peoples mouths.

I suspect it's rhetoric like what I've been saying: that SCoRE was supposed to release a playable version of the game when they had one, not keep it to themselves. It does grossly over-simplify things... but given that I do believe the game is playable, certainly playable enough to be released, it doesn't matter how easy or hard it would be for someone to make a server. It'll happen. And there's no reason not to drop what they have on an anonymous torrent, and let the whole world work on getting the kinks out.

It also pains me to see people not only making death threats, but members of this community actively laughing about it and saying he deserves the threats. That's not the community I remember. That's not a community I want to even be a part of. So I hope that most of us remain rational. We can feel angry, we can feel hurt, we can feel betrayed, but we have to remember that we are all human beings, and also... we're supposed to be heroes here.

Heroes don't make, condone, or worse, celebrate, death threats against anyone no matter how bad they might be.

Some of the leakers are people who have been banned from various internet forums, including CoH's official boards. Although they obviously blew the lid off this secret server, I think some of them are using that credibility to call out people they have vendettas against.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quotes above no longer link properly. But they are unmodified, and the originals can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 17, 2019, 06:40:28 AM
Maybe there's a reason the code wasn't just tossed out there for any and every coder to poke a stick at. I don't know. None of us do yet. Maybe all this attention will incentivize the SCORE team to provide some answers. This whole mess is in sore need of context.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but isn't it kind of obvious? SCoRE has (as I understand it) illegally-obtained NCSoft property. If it had been publicized earlier, and if NCSoft had learned that they had this, which they more-likely-than-not would have, they would almost certainly drop a C&D on them, and that would be the death of the City. (SEGS aside - but the odds of SEGS getting to I24 in my lifetime are slim, at best, and I'm pretty young among those who played CoX.) It's the first rule of fan projects (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqwP6uuYOWo): don't talk about it until it's done! Once it's done and you release it, they can C&D you all they want, but getting it off the internet will be like playing Whack-a-Mole.

I think the death threats against Leandro are disgusting, as would any sane person, but I think the incredible amount of bad faith being directed towards him is similarly uncalled for. I understand people feel betrayed and resentful, but some of the conclusions being jumped to herein and elsewhere (hereout? hereout should totally be a word...) seem a little far-fetched. We have no idea what he wanted to do with the code or the server, we have no idea if he was actually planning to open it up for the 15th anniversary, and my analysis may well be terribly off-base, but with all he has done for the community, I think he's earned a little faith. All we've got his word versus the word of some random dude - I don't know about you, but I'm choosing to believe Leandro, most of all because it is the only shot, as far as I see, of getting the City back any time soon.

(And before anyone accuses me of brown-nosing or somesuch, I'd like to note that I, being a chronic introvert, yea, even on the internet, am not party to this private server or any other, I would not accept an invitation if Leandro did descend from the heavens and present one to me, and, because of the whole aforementioned C&D thing, which one imagines NCSoft's legal team is drafting as I type, I do think SCoRE should release what they've got, if anything, posthaste.)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 17, 2019, 06:44:00 AM
Yes.  Yes there are people that stupid.

I think there were some kickstarter scams, but for the most part when one fails it's just because a dev got in over their head.  I think a lot of people just don't understand how hard game dev is, especially since usually when a failure happens in traditional game dev you just don't hear about it.  The project is scrapped before it's even been announced.

It's worth noting that the close relationship between Paragon Chat and the private server quite naturally leads to speculation that any money that was donated to Titan Network for PChat development might have gone towards this private server. I suspect that any and all money is accounted for, but given the fact that people worked on both projects at the same time, it is reasonable for people to wonder about that particular money trail.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 07:27:43 AM
I still have a lot of questions. Has SCoRE been used to help development of any of the other, more public facing projects at all? Giving them reference or access to the existing code that would be otherwise inaccessible?

Is there any sort of even internal documentation supporting some of the more optimistic claims that this was just a deep alpha test with a definitive plan to release it to a much wider audience?

How playable is the current state of SCoRE because I've seen conflicting accounts...

How does a player access their existing character information if the data is not bundled with any account information from the live service?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: olivar on April 17, 2019, 07:35:07 AM
I still have a lot of questions. Has SCoRE been used to help development of any of the other, more public facing projects at all? Giving them reference or access to the existing code that would be otherwise inaccessible?

Is there any sort of even internal documentation supporting some of the more optimistic claims that this was just a deep alpha test with a definitive plan to release it to a much wider audience?

How playable is the current state of SCoRE because I've seen conflicting accounts...

How does a player access their existing character information if the data is not bundled with any account information from the live service?

Until the people from ScoRE actually come forward with information, we'll just be angrily speculating about what-ifs and what-nots.
I personally would love to see their server be made open for everyone and be able to play again with my characters.
But it all depends on them now, on how they're going to deal with this backlash....if at all...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 17, 2019, 07:35:25 AM
. From other accounts, leaks etc the server is not stitched together and works perfectly.

So, here's what you're not understanding. The original stock NCSoft server IS a stitched together mess.

The easiest way to explain it is to look at how Windows is setup on your computer. "Windows" is not a single monithic program, it's a collection of services that all have to run and interact in order to operate successfully. If you go into settings on Windows 10 and look under Services, you'll find a whole list of these pieces that all interoperate to make "Windows".

The CoX "server" wasn't a single program. It was a bunch of servers. An authentication sever. A character server. A map server that managed zones that had players in them. A chat server. The Architect manager. The auction house database. The store, which was a whole other system located on a separate sever run by an ecommerce company that doesn't even exist any more.

If the server being run by Leandro and friends is operational and is not "stitched togethet" then it means that they've been doing what they claimed -- reverse engineering the original funtionality and creating new, better versions that are NOT stitched together multiple spaghetti code processes.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 07:50:01 AM
So, here's what you're not understanding. The original stock NCSoft server IS a stitched together mess.

I wonder if this was a more common thing with the games around that era, I remember being frustrated with Tabula Rasa and Auto Assaults server performance.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: olivar on April 17, 2019, 08:20:12 AM
I wonder if this was a more common thing with the games around that era, I remember being frustrated with Tabula Rasa and Auto Assaults server performance.
It's more that this is a software paradaigm than a "common thing with games".

Single Responsibility is a doctrine in programming, not to mention that you can scale up these separate servers depending on the load.
It's far easier to upscale your login server for example to handle a surge of signups than having to scale up the entire infrastructure and database just because a few more people are logging in.

source : 7y of game dev
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: jessejame on April 17, 2019, 09:07:16 AM
Suppose we get what we want whether it's an open server or the code. Then what? The last time i saw the people I cared about and played with for years was on those stairs right up to the last second. Is there a way of putting the word out to all former players who may not keep tabs on any of this that the game is back? I find it hard to believe that personal information was not transferred but characters were. Couldnt a mass email be sent out?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RheaGhe on April 17, 2019, 09:25:28 AM
Hey there.

Not a former CoH player to much of any degree. I think I want to post a very generic view though, just in hopes of saying some stuff because watching this unfurl over the past twelve-eighteen hours was a blast. Straight out of a comic book I swear.

First things first, Victoria, this is depending on jurisdiction(My knowledge of EU libel laws is that they are typically draconian but not enforceable outside the EU.) In general though, what he said(To you,) cannot be classified in anyway as libel, or anything really legally actionable, he's not calling for harassment directly or explicitly, he's not inciting violence intentionally, he's not criminally harassing you directly... In fact what he's doing might even be protected under the same laws that exist to protect journalists from retribution.

What is potentially legally actionable is the breaking of his NDA, but then you'd need to substantiate damages. And further substantiate how those damages differed from profit seeking. As for private servers that should definitively operate in a profit neutral territory, seeking profit is generally a no no, which makes damages a hard thing to prove. And I'm getting a bit far from myself. Some advice in general, words are a powerful thing, you and I both know that. And going off half cocked, saying things without fully thinking them through is only going to make you look bad, while the chucklehead laughs at your frustration. What incites you feeds him. Don't play the game with them, break the narrative. Best piece of advice a lawyer ever gave me. Don't ever say you're getting a lawyer, talking to legal, etc. It's a gamble every time you do. And only serves to make it look like you're playing hardball in the situation. Which depending on the situation could make you come off as someone who is being overly forceful for next to no reason. Don't tell them you're getting a lawyer until the moment you've retained council and are filing something with a court.

To others, both in communities abroad looking in, and within these forums, looking around and wondering. There is no way to prove someone has played upon the server, or hasn't. Histrionically forming witch-hunts about and around certain people who may or may not have played on the server accomplishes nothing. Strays from the point of the anger. And serves only to exhaust everyone involved.

Next point.

This really has resembled a giant giant train wreck. And I can appreciate it as a dramallama who likes watching trainwrecks I'm mostly unaffiliated with. However CoH is a game I've been fascinated by and with good reason. The culture that surrounds it is quite broad and diverse, and there really hasn't been a game to capture the same base as it did. Not even Champions which had in my opinion the best shot of it to date.

Certainly, and speaking of the drama though, I find a lot of things start to make a large amount of sense in the community as I've observed. As I've been looking in on it maybe every year for the last 4 years and every 6 months since SEGS started to be a realized thing with 0.3? I think... There was always a slight sort of lethargy about the community, and an almost lack of eagerness in it's movers and shakers, at least that I saw on places like this and the subreddit, whenever the possibility of emulation and server recovery were mentioned. A kind of short period of "Oh well that's nice, carry on." Whenever SEGS had something new built. This along with the Paragon Chat client being the "best" implementation so far of a server recreation. When a game like SWGEmu had a massive fan support structure spring up almost immediately, with dedicated Devs working whenever they could. SEGS didn't, that I could see have that base. And it always struck me as odd. I used to recall to a friend of mine, when we bemoan the lack of a good Supers MMO. That this type of thing not happening made no sense. Even discounting SWGEmu, which is building SWG server code from scratch essentially. You had the fortuitousness of SWLegends, which was built from a lucky find of source code, kind of like Leandro has described happening in the PCGamer article. It made no sense to me, personally, that something like either of those two projects wouldn't have happened. Especially given how sudden the shut down was. Especially given the amount of successor projects. Especially given how CoH was more modern of an MMO than classic pre-NGE SWG was.

Finally, I'd like to say, that the community as I see it is a vibrant and wonderful place, and I'm sorry for this trainwreck having occured. Here's hoping when the dust settles, you all will have a relatively easy time settling down and not stare at each other with distrust. Wondering who might have a score to settle.

Just my Two Cents.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Aurora on April 17, 2019, 09:28:57 AM
Also Victoria, could you clarify what you meant by this post: https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=10951.msg184432#msg184432

You wrote: "Having had the fortune to be on some of that testing....yeah.  Seriously, folks, there are still plenty of people in the US that believe:

In fairies.
In a flat-earth.
That the moon-landings were a hoax.
That the Royal Family of Great Britain is composed of shape-shifting lizard people. 

So out of all the thousands of people that were passionate about City, there were bound to be a handful who'd believe in private servers that some mysterious "elite" were keeping them out of."

I'm not starting a witch hunt. I'm merely curious. Being as that post came right after Leandro's on the subject, you either were extremely unfortunate in timing and phrasing with testing, or your definition of testing includes playing on those private servers which surely don't exist. I hope it was just unfortunate timing and phrasing and you were testing paragon chat or something.

Edit: If the context was about paragon chat, I apologize in advance.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: P51mus on April 17, 2019, 09:42:41 AM
What is potentially legally actionable is the breaking of his NDA,

I'm pretty sure contracts that involve crimes are unenforceable, and a contract to hide the existence of a private server like this would fall under that?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 09:48:53 AM
I'm pretty sure contracts that involve crimes are unenforceable, and a contract to hide the existence of a private server like this would fall under that?

Imagine if your weed man made you sign an NDA.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RheaGhe on April 17, 2019, 09:52:00 AM
I'm pretty sure contracts that involve crimes are unenforceable, and a contract to hide the existence of a private server like this would fall under that?

Abandonware is a gray area legally.

Private servers are relatively gray as well.

Basically it's only illegal if the IP holder, or presumable person taking legal action declares it's right or otherwise enforces it's ownership. And then a court calls it illegal. More than that, your contract has to be specifically called out by a judge or jury as being illegal to be nullified.  And again, private servers are a nebulous area. And no private server owner or staff member wants to be the person taken to court over running one, and ruin it for literally everyone else running or playing them.

So as an example, when I was 16, I signed and my parents agreed upon my first NDA(I was under the age of 18 so I could not sign a contract of my own volition in my jurisdiction). For a film project, that project was later found to be infringing upon someones trademark or possibly lost the rights to it. The project was cancelled in effect. And I was not released from that NDA till I was 22, and my five year term on my NDA had passed.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Victoria Victrix on April 17, 2019, 10:06:29 AM
Also Victoria, could you clarify what you meant by this post: https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=10951.msg184432#msg184432

You wrote: "Having had the fortune to be on some of that testing....yeah.  Seriously, folks, there are still plenty of people in the US that believe:



It was, very very clearly, about Paragon Chat.  Leo was helping me learn to demoedit, and decided I would make a good Paragon Chat beta tester.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: summers on April 17, 2019, 10:20:21 AM
I just have to get this rambling thing off my chest, this has eaten me up all day now.

I understand why some decisions were made. There was a real fear that who knows what kind of legal action could happen. That doesn't mean that I agree with these decisions though...

I wish a different decision was made. I think it's becoming clear that a lot of people feel very betrayed, that there was gaslighting going on at an incredible and organised scale, that people from many places used authority to conspire and ban others who loved the same thing they did, that denied others the same joy they they were keeping from them.

I wish Leandro and others a safe time through this. The internet is a crazy dumping ground and, while I think they have done a terrible thing, the very thought that people could threaten them or their family is appalling.

I don't know how everything is working with the financial side of things; be it donations made that might have gone elsewhere, or for the many people developing other projects who have put their heart and soul into it and it appears their work may be for naught. For those developing similar endeavors it must be utterly heartbreaking.

Personally I feel very hurt, I have lurked for years, I have always been saddened by the loss of a game I have loved so much, and I have done my very best to put it behind me (and fail to do so) - and to know that I was actively lied to and for perhaps years people were playing the game I cared so much for... it doesn't feel good.

Whatever happens next, this will only build pressure until it is addressed. I hope that Leandro and others can make a public statement, that they can put it out in the open and release the code that lets everyone enjoy the game. I hope that they are also left in peace and, letting bygones be bygones, are credited for keeping COX alive despite what I think have been missteps on their behalf.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 10:33:15 AM
I dunno, I find it hard to believe this would have benefited any of us that aren't involved with the secret server already.  Yes, its good news that the code still exists.  But it sounds like it has existed for 6 years and hasn't helped any of us who miss the game, even through the new efforts.  If they weren't exposed I don't know how many more years this server would remain a secret, it may have never come out.

I like to believe this was all for the good of the community, but how many more years was this going to be a secret for? 5? 10?  What's even the point after 17 years of the game being shut down.  I get why they kept it a secret.  Because they wanted to keep playing and not have it taken away from them.  But I don't believe at all that keeping it a secret was for the good of the community, I think it was for the good of themselves.  I'll happily be proven wrong if this somehow leads to me being able to play the game again.  But currently, it feels like NCSoft and SCORE are both not allowing me to play a game I love.

I honestly don't know any of the people involved with SCORE.  And I am sure they are nice people and this wasn't intended to be malicious.  But it doesn't make me feel any better knowing this game we all love has been around for years in secret.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: FlyingCarcass on April 17, 2019, 10:37:35 AM
So much for checking out this site every couple of days for the past few years in the vain hope of news regarding a playable version of CoH.  :-\
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Gun-Nut on April 17, 2019, 11:02:18 AM
So much for checking out this site every couple of days for the past few years in the vain hope of news regarding a playable version of CoH.  :-\

Indeed, at least up until yesterday if you had heard of SCORE like myself you could sit around thinking a team is still putting in work behind the scenes to make an emulator but instead we find out a fully playable server exists and is super secret.

Lots of mixed feelings, been part of this "Titan Network" (hell I'm user #38) community before it was even Titan, if I recall correctly CIT had its own boards that I use to frequent at the time, or maybe it was MIDs? either way there was something before this... I don't know where I was going with that...

I guess it hurts coming to the place SCoRE used as its home at one point that nothing was even stated that the effort to make an emulator had been stopped or maybe it never was and work has been going on to get it in a state that its easy to run, since as other posts have stated and from what I recall the devs did state the server stuff was quite a nightmare.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 17, 2019, 12:17:15 PM
First off - thanks to the Titan Forum devs for opening up this topic and allowing for the users to openly discuss it. I know that the forum policy regarding that had to be changed in order to allow this, and I think it was a smart move. So, thank you.

Much like the rest of the community, I'm pretty conflicted. I think my most surface-level thoughts/reactions to it have been mostly frustration? These people had a fully-functioning private server running right under our noses for 6 years, and kept it alllllll to themselves. While they knew that such a large portion of the community was still hurting, they choose to take the route of "Yeah, so that sucks that you guys can't play the game anymore... but we can, and we will, and we can't let you play it too because then we might not be able to play it. So, sorry."

I'm not entirely sure I believe Leandro when he says he had intentions of going live with it, or converting it to a more 'public' status server sometime in the future. I also think he was kiiiiiinda using the "Well everyone knew about SCORE!" as his scapegoat, and I don't think most people are buying that (or, rather, allowing him to get away with this on those grounds). I don't know who he is, and I'm not sure what I believe.

....But on the other hand. I dunno - if someone offered me the 'golden ticket', I would be hella tempted. So, factoring that in, I can only be so mad at the private server players. Ultimately, I know I would not have played on it (please note: I was never a private server player, was never offered - I don't even use Reddit haha) but I understand the allure for sure. And if I were to of said yes, I would have ABSOLUTELY felt super gross about it? I think one of the two former private server players who came out publicly - the player's account name on Facebook was Destiny something - shared that same sentiment. They knew that they were doing something that was 'unfair', like being in a village that's been without water for yeeeeeears but a few houses had managed to find a hidden pipe that had a lifetime supply of Evian running through it, and instead of sharing it with everyone and dealing with whatever ramifications that came with... they opted to not tell anyone, and reap the benefits quietly amongst themselves.

Speaking of ramifications, I think that's one piece to this that I'm honestly clueless about - will NCSoft take legal action? Will they not? I have zero idea. Based off of how they handled the COH shutdown, all I really know of them (as a company) is that they SEEM petty AF and really prideful/stubborn in how they carry out their business. So, with that in mind, I'm inclined to think that they might. But on the other hand... you've GOTTA ask if this would even be worth it to pursue legally? Taking legal action WOULD cost them money, and whose to know if they could even financially benefit (in the LONG RUN) from taking legal action against Leandro et al.

I think the one fairly laaaaarge silver lining that I have with all of this is just simply knowing that the server, disc image, and data is ALIVE. That NCSoft didn't bury that into the ground and throw away the key post-shut down like they tried to convince us they did. Someone on Paragon Chat pointed out to me the other day that when a private server is created after a deceased game, it's like posting a picture on the Internet - once it's out there, it's pretty much out there. It's going to be VERY difficult for NCSoft to put a lid on something like this. I would bet my left AND right leg(s) that sooooomeone has already gotten off with any/all info they would need to re-create another private server should NCSoft get this current one shut down. They have to know that they can't stop this train from moving now.

I don't think Leandro and the private server group 'owed it' to the community to open it up to everyone, and then deal with whatever legal repercussions came with that - but, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been the right thing to do.

Personally speaking, I think this is the best news we've had in a WHILE in regards to playing COH again, or getting the game back. People seem to think that this is only going to further diminish our chances, and I absolutely think the opposite. With all the press and attention this is getting, the pressure is ON. The community is on fire, and they /will/ be heard. Something is going to give here. I can feel it.

...And I feel like it will be for the better.  ;)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 17, 2019, 12:19:58 PM

Maybe Tony can pull a rabbit out of his hat or something.


 You leave me OUT of this!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 12:46:50 PM
The rhetoric that "oh the code was a mess" is getting really old. To honestly believe SCORE or Leo are the only people on this planet capable of sorting and running a private server is a complete farce. I get why they chose to keep it in secret while working on it. NCsoft is a corporation that will keep its own interests in mind ahead of anything else. Nobody should be questioning that and if they are they're foolish. The problem front and center is proof was provided of a fully functioning city of heroes private server and the only answer we've been given is "It's a secret and will remain that way". Furthering, the leaker be it untrustworthy or not has made claims on people openly who have chosen either to stay silent about those claims or deny them turning the entire situation into he said she said. Nobody can figure out who to trust anymore and when people give flimsy excuses like "the code is a mess" it only makes it look worse.

The facts.

- Functioning private server has existed for some time now.

- People were chosen to join it while others were purposely mislead

- Leo has gone on record to claim it was going to be released in only a couple weeks for everyone to enjoy but now is not (His statement about it being ready in only a couple weeks completely shatters any argument about it being unfinished.)

These are undisputed truths that have come out and honestly the only things worth discussion at this point. Hear say about who was where is becoming tiring and so is the idea that the server would be impossible for others to run.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 17, 2019, 12:51:04 PM
Good morning from the Pacific.

A brief reminder - I've done some pruning this morning.  Discussion about the private server itself specifically will be removed.  This includes, but is not limited to: invites, queries or accusations of who is in it (no witch hunts, please), or any links to content that supposedly comes from it. 

Discuss the news, sure.  Ask questions, but understand not all of them will get answers or may get speculative replies from people who know nothing (count me in that camp.) But our policies have not changed.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Fixxer on April 17, 2019, 01:07:28 PM
It's interesting that some people are allowed to discuss the private server... while others get mod smacked.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 01:12:42 PM
It's worth noting that the close relationship between Paragon Chat and the private server quite naturally leads to speculation that any money that was donated to Titan Network for PChat development might have gone towards this private server. I suspect that any and all money is accounted for, but given the fact that people worked on both projects at the same time, it is reasonable for people to wonder about that particular money trail.

Money that was donated to Titan Network for PC Chat development?  What?

Did you give money to Titan Network thinking they were involved in PC Chat development?  I thought it was made clear many multiple times that there was no direct connection between Titan Network and PC Chat.  Who did you give money to?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 01:14:15 PM
The rhetoric that "oh the code was a mess" is getting really old. To honestly believe SCORE or Leo are the only people on this planet capable of sorting and running a private server is a complete farce. I get why they chose to keep it in secret while working on it. NCsoft is a corporation that will keep its own interests in mind ahead of anything else. Nobody should be questioning that and if they are they're foolish. The problem front and center is proof was provided of a fully functioning city of heroes private server and the only answer we've been given is "It's a secret and will remain that way". Furthering, the leaker be it untrustworthy or not has made claims on people openly who have chosen either to stay silent about those claims or deny them turning the entire situation into he said she said. Nobody can figure out who to trust anymore and when people give flimsy excuses like "the code is a mess" it only makes it look worse.

The facts.

- Functioning private server has existed for some time now.

- People were chosen to join it while others were purposely mislead

- Leo has gone on record to claim it was going to be released in only a couple weeks for everyone to enjoy but now is not (His statement about it being ready in only a couple weeks completely shatters any argument about it being unfinished.)

These are undisputed truths that have come out and honestly the only things worth discussion at this point. Hear say about who was where is becoming tiring and so is the idea that the server would be impossible for others to run.


While I am dead set against releasing any code that may be NCsofts, it would be sweet justice if Leandro turned around ans said,  "Okay, here's the original code,  but you get nothing the SCORE team has developed since,  because you've been, irrational, petulant,  overly entitled,  self-righteous, and outright threatening. " 


Then we can watch all of these experts coming out of the wood work claiming if the code is free they can launch a bunch of servers. Let's see just how long it takes them to get a reusable, packaged server up and running.    I mean,  the skillsets of people like Codewalker, Leandro, et al. are pretty minimum wage,  amiright? Maybe Super Atom can team up with Joshex to double their productivity level?


But seriously,  folks need to calm down because mitch if the reaction is hysterical and embarrassing.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 17, 2019, 01:17:02 PM
Folks, I've been removing posts I deem abusive or destructive last night and today. I want to remind everyone to be civil. If you want to talk about how you feel about the situation, fine. But if you want to post rants personally attacking Leandro, SCoRE, or anyone else, or try to propagate baseless speculation, your post is going to be nuked.

I apologize for being cynical, but it's about all I can be because the entire situation is extremely cynical. It feels as though the overall CoX community has had a pretty clear caste system in play with what is more or less, a first class citizen group who invited who they deemed worth from the unwashed masses. It's frustrating to say the least.

...And this is why.

The CoX community DOES NOT have a "caste system." Re-read my On "private servers" (https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=10951.0) post again:

In reality, if you're here, as far as I'm concerned, you're part of the "in" crowd, period, end of story.

Now, having said all of that, I have consistently said that there is a possibility that one of the devs might have managed to get their hands on the code before the shutdown.  I'll even concede that there might be a private server out there.  If so, then more power to them, and I hope that eventually whoever has access to the code will see fit to release it.  I have also repeatedly acknowledged that there is a team out there I've been referring to SCoRE who has been working on reverse engineering a server, and while I know that it's been a long time and some folks have lost faith that they're making any progress, they ARE still working on it, and they ARE still making progress to the point where I've seen some simple interactions happening.  If you're wondering why they won't release their work, it's mainly because it is at a VERY early stage, it's VERY difficult to get it configured correctly, and they would much rather spend their time working on coding than having to worry about releasing stuff, supporting it, getting an inevitable flood of questions about "how do I set this up?" (only to be disappointed to find out that it takes expensive development software), and getting an inevitable flood of complaints that it's not working right and how much their progress sucks so far.  (Which was yet another thread posted a few days ago that we deleted, but I digress...)  And not to put too fine a point on it, the reason that team is highly encouraged to maintain radio silence on their efforts is precisely because of what is going on over on Facebook right now, baseless rumors and allegations that are completely unconstructive based on what some people think (but who don't actually know) what is going on.

So in short, is there a private server?  Not that I know of, although it is still being worked on.  Even if there is, it is totally irrelevant, because whoever is running it obviously doesn't want it released to the community-at-large for what is hopefully a really damn good obvious reason.  I know that if I were running such a server, seeing the noise that is being made over these allegations, along with the threats that are being made and the unbridled sense of entitlement that is being conveyed, along with the legal threat of what would happen if it got out into the wild, would certainly turn me off of the prospect of releasing the software.  In short, if there is such a thing, what's going on over on Facebook is likely driving those people deeper underground, not encouraging them to release it to the community.

To the folks who are spreading this crap around on Facebook, if you want something constructive to do instead, support the community instead of trying to tear it apart.  Express support for SCoRE, or participate in one of the successor projects, or even snag a copy of Icon and make some videos to entertain the community without the pretense of there being a private server.

This holds true today just as much as it did then. The only difference is that now we know there's a private server. Well, bully for them. I'm not jealous of the people who have been playing on it, because I personally am no worse off than I was this time last week. When Leandro says that he intended--and still intends--to release the code, given his reputation for actually producing stuff for the community and contributing to projects like Paragon Chat, I don't get all pissed off scorched-earth at him, I take him at his word. In my humble opinion, he's earned that over the years, and it disappoints me greatly that too many people can't see past their own anger to realize it.

At any rate, this...

There are aspects that I completely understand, and there are aspects of it that were extremely cynical on the part of those involved, such as people who are in the know about an actively working private server enforcing "no private server discussion" on forums and subreddits, people actively involved in running SCoRE being involved in other efforts that have existed as little more than a placating romparoom for the members of this community not deemed worthy of access to the actual game...

...was the main reason I'm replying this morning.

I can't speak for subreddits, but the Titan Network, and I in particular, have not been enforcing a "no private server discussion" policy because we're "in on" a private server. If you want to know why we've enforced that policy, it is PRECISELY because of what's going on right here, right now. Forget the totally bogus allegations I've seen over the years. Even around this event, in which there has proven to be a core of truth, the amount of lies and misinformation about us (the Titan Network), SEGS, City of Titans, and numerous other community members and leaders has been flabbergasting. I got accused of being "in hiding" yesterday, and I'm like, wait, what? I have been posting and replying in various social media platforms and responding to people on Discord almost constantly since Sunday afternoon.

I have screenshots of people in Discord saying that CoT was just a front to funnel money to the private server project. Even the guy who posted the video that started this whole brouhaha initially said that SEGS was behind the private server project, throwing a crapton of flak their way. As I type this, Leandro is being doxxed and receiving death threats.

As for the "placating romparoom" you referred to, I take STRONG exception to that, and frankly, it pisses me off and it pisses on the enormous amount of time, effort, and energy that people who have NOTHING to do with the private server have put into building, testing, and deploying Paragon Chat. I personally pay for the server on which the XMPP service is hosted out of my OWN pocket every month, and just for the record, I am NOT a member of SCoRE, I don't play on any private servers out there, and I am in NO WAY motivated to keep it up and going as any kind of "front" or "distraction" for anyone else.

But while a small group of people who have been posting conspiracy crap for years are taking a victory lap feeling all vindicated that, like a blind hog, they managed to find one acorn, those are the kinds of baseless allegations and lies--again even around a nugget of truth--that we're having to put up with.

I get that you're upset. I get that you're mad. But other people are getting hurt, people who have nothing to do with any private server, people who have busted their butts trying to provide a community where EVERYONE feels welcome.

So while we've allowed more leeway in this thread lately due to getting how people are feeling, this forum is not a free-for-all where people can feel free to come in and treat Leandro, or anyone else, like scum. We are not going to continue allowing people to ascribe unfounded malicious motives to those who have been working on ANY community-related project, INCLUDING SCoRE or any other private server-related mess.

You want to wonder why they haven't released code? Fine. But you want to come in here and accuse them of not doing so because they're elitist pricks who for some insane reason have secretly been working to set up a gated community of "haves"? Take it somewhere else. There are plenty of other forums and Facebook pages where the moderators have decided to let anything go, places that have devolved into cesspools of hate and vitriol.

I get your cynicism, I really, really do. But this isn't a place to take that cynicism and project it as far and wide as possible, hoping it takes hold and infects everyone else. If that were the case, we never would have survived the shutdown because believe you me, there was a LOT of cynicism back then, too. This a place where we come together to get over our cynicism, where we pull together--and yes, that means even the people who have been on the private server--as a community. Hell, we're talking about THREE THOUSAND people, undoubtedly many of whom have been on here frequently continuing to prop up the community as SCoRE has been working on a working server, carrying everyone through some bad times until hopefully we can all enjoy the fruits of their labors. (And no, I'm not going to entertain this notion that "they never intended to release the game," that's ludicrous.)

They could have simply gone away to live in their "gated community" and chose not to. Why? Because as I said in my "On 'private servers'" thread above, there IS NO gated community here. There is no caste system. There are no "haves" and "have-nots," there's just us. ALL of us.

If anyone can't abide by that, then they're choosing to isolate themselves from the community, not us. And I think that's a shame, but again, we're not going to allow anyone to use these forums to try to make this whole "caste system" foolishness a self-fulfilling prophesy.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Burnt Toast on April 17, 2019, 01:29:32 PM
I actually think people have a very valid reason for being upset. A private server has been up and running for 6+ years. Many forumites have been enjoying the ability to play on said server while many more have not. While I would never condone actual threats of violence - I still think everyone who was/is a fan of CoH has an absolute right to feel betrayed...furious...and utterly pissed off at those who have been lying to them for years. There is no sugar coating that many on these forums have been duped by people they thought were friends. Most people on these forums would have jumped at the ability to play on the private server and would have paid good money to do so.


I'm not saying I was aware of the server, but if I were and if I knew I had to keep it a secret... I would not have played. I am just not that selfish. I am not that hypocritical that I would come on here and deny the existence of something like that while actually playing on it. I find that those who did are completely disgusting and that such behavior is the antithesis of what the CoH community was supposed to have been about.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: jessejame on April 17, 2019, 01:33:30 PM
Tony brings up a good point. I haven't kept up with the community but if Leo really didnt care then why would he have contributed to the community at all?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 17, 2019, 02:03:41 PM
I wonder if this was a more common thing with the games around that era, I remember being frustrated with Tabula Rasa and Auto Assaults server performance.

Just to punctuate what @Olivar noted - The point was not that it was bad for the original server to be designed as a bunch of services, or that a current server would not be designed that way; it was that there was a whole bunch of moving wheels and any one of them failing to move correctly could stop the whole vehicle.

Take the store as an example. The store was not a part of the server at all. It was an outside e-commerce site that the client and server communicated with to learn what premium/loyalty-rewards content the player was entitled to use. All of that vaporized the day the servers closed. Even if you had an otherwise working client/server for the game, you would NOT have any of the code related to the store aside from possibly the communication protocols used to send queries and purchases requests to it.

That's just one of the most obvious problems with trying to take a snapshot of the server and get it running.

Whatever Leandro has/had, if he had "just released it", most people would not have been in a position to do anything useful with it.

As for what he has - There's precious little hard evidence about what exactly that is. Despite what so many people are assuming, we don't know that he has source code. From what we've been told, NCSoft themselves were unable to come up with source code for the server. Leandro might well be in the same boat as NCSoft, in that someone gave him a working executable server installation, copied from an actual server (as opposed to a development machine with source files) but no actual source code. The only way to create an emulator would be to run the original server and duplicate its functionality.

If he does have source code, we don't know which version of the server it is. Cryptic themselves once accidentally published the source code of the game. The story is that they discovered the error and got rid of all but one copy and they bribed that person who got it to delete it by giving him a lifetime sub or some such. If THAT source code was in someone's hands, it would help that person understand generally how the server worked, but it would not allow him to compile an I-24 server or even contain any newer content at all.

In short - there are still too many questions to pull out the pitchforks. If its true that they were going to announce their emulator in just a couple of weeks, then it's REALLY unfortunate that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer decided that now was the time to become a freedom fighter seeking to free /r/CityofHeroes from its tyrannical oppressors.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 02:16:10 PM

 When Leandro says that he intended--and still intends--to release the code, given his reputation for actually producing stuff for the community and contributing to projects like Paragon Chat, I don't get all pissed off scorched-earth at him, I take him at his word. In my humble opinion, he's earned that over the years, and it disappoints me greatly that too many people can't see past their own anger to realize it.


Thank you for that, Tony, I completely agree.  I've been feeling bursts of rage on this subject but not for people involved in the SCoRE work... for the people who are gibbering insanely with rage for not being told about the Secret work. 

I haven't dived into this "up and running for 6 years!" stuff, so I'm not sure what has been running, or in what condition, or with what capacity.  I feel absolutely certain that nobody "in the community" has any "right" to anything from anybody -- especially from people who have put work into learning, running, and improving the software involved with CoH -- if you've sat down and worked and taught yourself enough about the client to add rooms to Pargon chat maps -- for example, IMHO you've got some basis to weigh in on development efforts.  And if not, you're waiting for somebody to give you something.

Years ago I jokingly warned somebody in a recovery effort that the reward for anybody learning that they were making progress would be piles of abuse for them not doing enough or not going faster or not doing whatever the specific person wanted them to do.  Yeah.

I'm thrilled that anybody has been able to play the game, more thrilled that the game exists in a form that can be played, even more thrilled that all those people who said "If I can't have my characters with my stuff then I don't ever want to play again" actually have at least a possibility of getting that (personally I'd just rebuild).

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Leandro (and Xs) have needed a playing population on their server in order to develop and test.  I sincerely hope that they've distributed copies to multiple people and sources to protect against loss, but I don't believe that anybody has any right to tell them how to deal with this.  And the idea that they've somehow been villainous in this strikes me as flat-out nuts.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 17, 2019, 02:19:57 PM
I actually think people have a very valid reason for being upset...

That's fine. We disagree on how upset people should be about it, and we probably disagree on the level of egregiousness of various people's sins. And I've always said, in this context and in others, that no one gets to tell you his you must feel about any given situation. You have the absolute right to feel however you feel.

But there is a huge difference between feeling angry and taking actions to make everyone else feel angry. There's a huge difference between feeling betrayed and trying to incite others to act on your feeling of betrayal.

One, we allow leeway in discussing here on the Titan forums. The latter, the part where people get destructive to the community, we don't.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 02:25:18 PM
That's fine. We disagree on how upset people should be about it, and we probably disagree on the level of egregiousness of various people's sins. And I've always said, in this context and in others, that no one gets to tell you his you must feel about any given situation. You have the absolute right to feel however you feel.

But there is a huge difference between feeling angry and taking actions to make everyone else feel angry. There's a huge difference between feeling betrayed and trying to incite others to act on your feeling of betrayal.

One, we allow leeway in discussing here on the Titan forums. The latter, the part where people get destructive to the community, we don't.


As long as this works both ways. Theres been a lot of attacking of people just expressing frustration. I don't think its particularly healthy to condem anyone, including the leaker. If its not done both ways, it begins to look like misdirection and censorship. I haven't seen the mods censor anyone who hasn't deserved it, so this appears to be the case so far.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Weatherwoman on April 17, 2019, 02:58:58 PM
My only comment on this whole situation is.... yikes
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 03:22:12 PM
Ultimately, this brings us back around full circle.  We're back to waiting to see what NCSoft will do.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 17, 2019, 03:37:25 PM
Ultimately, this brings us back around full circle.  We're back to waiting to see what NCSoft will do.

I think this situation is slightly different. Now, they know that they're not the only ones who have the capability of bringing the game back both from a legal AND logistical standpoint. Now, logistically speaking, they are faced with knowing that they're not the only ones who have that capability.

And, frankly, I'm perfectly tickled by that fact :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Fringe Element on April 17, 2019, 03:41:09 PM
lol at the post following mine - it's the same as mine minus all tact  :P

whoops, it was rightfully taken down
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 17, 2019, 03:42:11 PM
And let that be a lesson.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 03:46:42 PM
I think this situation is slightly different. Now, they know that they're not the only ones who have the capability of bringing the game back both from a legal AND logistical standpoint. Now, logistically speaking, they are faced with knowing that they're not the only ones who have that capability.

And, frankly, I'm perfectly tickled by that fact :)


Who else besides NCsoft has a legal right to bring the game back...?  Nothing has changed... / ' :
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 17, 2019, 03:53:39 PM
Certainly, and speaking of the drama though, I find a lot of things start to make a large amount of sense in the community as I've observed. As I've been looking in on it maybe every year for the last 4 years and every 6 months since SEGS started to be a realized thing with 0.3? I think... There was always a slight sort of lethargy about the community, and an almost lack of eagerness in it's movers and shakers, at least that I saw on places like this and the subreddit, whenever the possibility of emulation and server recovery were mentioned. A kind of short period of "Oh well that's nice, carry on."

For me, I never got enthusiastic about SEGS for 2 reasons: 1. I was of the understanding it was an issue 1 (ish) code, and even when I started playing in issue 4-5, going back to what I heard issue 1 was like is not something I wanted. Better than nothing, sure, but I didn't care much about an effort to get issue 1 working. I would have been happy when it was finished, and played it, but it didn't capture my interest; 2. SEGS has been around for *years* and nothing came of it, and until its recent activity in the last half year or so, my impression of it was always "it's that emulator that one person tried to do solo while the game was running."

Obviously I've been more positive about it in the last half year, even joining their discord last November. But that's only a recent development.

I also think that because there were efforts to literally buy the game from NCsoft, people put their hopes on that, instead of an emulator... especially given that the only emulator CoH had was, as noted above, not much of anything. And then SCoRE happened, and it was assumed they'd work for years and years and years and give us something - the idea that a effectively functioning private server existed was even *possible* before maybe at least a decade of work was deemed extremely unlikely.

I like to believe this was all for the good of the community, but how many more years was this going to be a secret for? 5? 10?  What's even the point after 17 years of the game being shut down.  I get why they kept it a secret.  Because they wanted to keep playing and not have it taken away from them.  But I don't believe at all that keeping it a secret was for the good of the community, I think it was for the good of themselves.  I'll happily be proven wrong if this somehow leads to me being able to play the game again.  But currently, it feels like NCSoft and SCORE are both not allowing me to play a game I love.

I honestly don't know any of the people involved with SCORE.  And I am sure they are nice people and this wasn't intended to be malicious.  But it doesn't make me feel any better knowing this game we all love has been around for years in secret.

Indeed, at least up until yesterday if you had heard of SCORE like myself you could sit around thinking a team is still putting in work behind the scenes to make an emulator but instead we find out a fully playable server exists and is super secret.

I'm not entirely sure I believe Leandro when he says he had intentions of going live with it, or converting it to a more 'public' status server sometime in the future. I also think he was kiiiiiinda using the "Well everyone knew about SCORE!" as his scapegoat, and I don't think most people are buying that (or, rather, allowing him to get away with this on those grounds). I don't know who he is, and I'm not sure what I believe.

This is kind of how I feel. And the statements that "oh it was going to be released for the 15th anniversary, but now we're not so we can make the code "better"" seems disingenuous to me. The cat's out of the bag, there's no harm in going through with the initial release schedule. But I honestly (and I would be happy to be proven wrong) don't believe that there was any set timeframe, in SCoRE's internal conversations, for a release.

Yeah, everyone on Titan Network had heard of SCoRE, but I was under the impression that they were working in secret to build something *to release* - and right now, I tend to lean towards believing that what they had was releasable, which is where the betrayal comes in. Again, if I see some sort of internal documentation from SCoRE that they actually had some release plan or schedule, I will be happy to know that I was not betrayed, but I'm currently skeptical.

Lots of mixed feelings, been part of this "Titan Network" (hell I'm user #38) community before it was even Titan, if I recall correctly CIT had its own boards that I use to frequent at the time, or maybe it was MIDs? either way there was something before this... I don't know where I was going with that...

Check my sig - CIT *did* have its own forums! (I was super disappointed the post counts didn't migrate, because somehow I was one of the top posters there when it did :p )

I think the one fairly laaaaarge silver lining that I have with all of this is just simply knowing that the server, disc image, and data is ALIVE.

I don't think we know that - the only thing that appears to be actually true is that SCoRE was anonymously given character data. The 2013 post from Leandro indicates that they may have actually been reverse engineering or trying to build something that didn't rely on original code.

(That post is also really sad to see, because shows all the initial hope and promise for the project, which somehow got turned into something where secrecy and trying to make the code "perfect" was more important than releasing it.)

Whatever Leandro has/had, if he had "just released it", most people would not have been in a position to do anything useful with it.

The same is true of the original code from the real servers. But releasing the code allows two things to happen: 1. It prevents NCsoft from actually managing to finally destroy the game, because it should be patently obvious that having multiple copies of digital information you want to preserve is the only way to ensure it doesn't get deleted, either maliciously or through something happening to the single physical databse; 2. It allows the people who don't fall under your "most people" umbrella, the ones who have the sort of knowledge to make things work, to try their own hand at working on CoH code. And that's a good thing. Regardless of anything else, I do believe that SCoRE has some really great programmers, but that doesn't mean they'll necessarily see the best way to do x y or z. Outside eyes might be able to help get the code into a better state faster than a few people working in secret. Crowdsourcing is a tried-and-true way to solve problems.

Money that was donated to Titan Network for PC Chat development?  What?

Did you give money to Titan Network thinking they were involved in PC Chat development?  I thought it was made clear many multiple times that there was no direct connection between Titan Network and PC Chat.  Who did you give money to?

Bold of you to assume I've had enough money to donate to anything in the timeframe since Paragon Chat was released  ;D . I was just trying to note that, while claims of the successors being money fronts *is* ridiculous, Titan Network does have a donation button (I don't know about Paragon Chat), and it is *understandable* that people will now be suspicious about where that money goes, given the close nature of Titan Network and Paragon Chat.

I get your cynicism, I really, really do. But this isn't a place to take that cynicism and project it as far and wide as possible, hoping it takes hold and infects everyone else. If that were the case, we never would have survived the shutdown because believe you me, there was a LOT of cynicism back then, too. This a place where we come together to get over our cynicism, where we pull together--and yes, that means even the people who have been on the private server--as a community. Hell, we're talking about THREE THOUSAND people, undoubtedly many of whom have been on here frequently continuing to prop up the community as SCoRE has been working on a working server, carrying everyone through some bad times until hopefully we can all enjoy the fruits of their labors.

.....

They could have simply gone away to live in their "gated community" and chose not to. Why? Because as I said in my "On 'private servers'" thread above, there IS NO gated community here. There is no caste system. There are no "haves" and "have-nots," there's just us. ALL of us.

If anyone can't abide by that, then they're choosing to isolate themselves from the community, not us. And I think that's a shame, but again, we're not going to allow anyone to use these forums to try to make this whole "caste system" foolishness a self-fulfilling prophesy.

That's fine. We disagree on how upset people should be about it, and we probably disagree on the level of egregiousness of various people's sins. And I've always said, in this context and in others, that no one gets to tell you his you must feel about any given situation. You have the absolute right to feel however you feel.

But there is a huge difference between feeling angry and taking actions to make everyone else feel angry. There's a huge difference between feeling betrayed and trying to incite others to act on your feeling of betrayal.

One, we allow leeway in discussing here on the Titan forums. The latter, the part where people get destructive to the community, we don't.

TonyV, you've been a staunch pillar of the CoH community for a long time, and you built the Titan Network into the best CoH community there is. I do believe that you didn't know about the server, and that the reasons for censoring private server talk were to prevent these forums from devolving into what other places have become the last few days.

But I honestly think that many of your comments, especially on the MassivelyOP article, come across as tone deaf.

I get that you're upset. I get that you're mad. But other people are getting hurt, people who have nothing to do with any private server, people who have busted their butts trying to provide a community where EVERYONE feels welcome.

I don't think you truly grok why people are feeling hurt, and betrayed. You say yourself that you're relatively sanguine about the revelation:

This holds true today just as much as it did then. The only difference is that now we know there's a private server. Well, bully for them. I'm not jealous of the people who have been playing on it, because I personally am no worse off than I was this time last week.

On these very forums, you can search for SCoRE or Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers, and see posts of people who put their faith in SCoRE to provide a working game to the community. As of right now, the evidence points to SCoRE *having the game that they promised to deliver* .... and not doing so. Yes, maybe the code wasn't "good enough" for SCoRE's standards... but surely you can understand why people who see video of a working game, that was built by people they trusted to release said game, are upset that it was kept secret?

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quotes above no longer link properly. But they are unmodified, and the originals can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 17, 2019, 03:55:44 PM

Who else besides NCsoft has a legal right to bring the game back...?  Nothing has changed... / ' :

That's what I'm saying. They're the only ones who can legally bring it back, but now that it's been uncovered that a private server/emulator has been running for 6 years, they now KNOW that they're not the only ones who have the logistical capability to bring it back - should whomever has a copy of the game a.) want to, and b.) deem any/all potential ramifications of bringing said game back to be 'worth it', they have the ability (technically speaking) to do so. Now, NCSoft could just go on a suing spree and go after any/all parties whom might continually revive it over and over again... but c'mon.

Before, they had both the 'legal' and 'logistical' elements on their side. But the chess game just got a whole lot more 'level' with the public knowledge of the existence of this private server.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 03:57:06 PM
Quote
Thank you for that, Tony, I completely agree.  I've been feeling bursts of rage on this subject but not for people involved in the SCoRE work... for the people who are gibbering insanely with rage for not being told about the Secret work. 

At the very least you should understand where the rage is coming from. I'll use my own experience as it's the best i've got to explain.

I was staring at the clock waiting patiently for the new Anno game to release in hopes of it filling some of the void City of Heroes left when only an hour was left, someone linked me to the article. For years I was told by a lot of people i trusted to be the ones to keep everyone updated that Paragon Chat was the best we were gonna get outside of SEGS, and while i love SEGS and the people who work hard on it, It was extremely far off from being the City of Heroes i desired. This article not only showed that to be incorrect it accused people I put complete faith into of lying. Not everything in the article was concrete but at this point, i was very hurt on a personal level.

For years my supergroup and i have played around in mids, paragon chat, and discussed daily general CoH stuff. We've tried moving on and have tried many times to not let it get us down. We all grew up together, most of us only 13 when CoH released, some of us even dated and moved in together. City of Heroes was a lot of things to us more than "A game about super heroes" which is why Champions, DC, or the successors didn't bring any comfort knowing that mechanically it wouldn't be the same game. Now you have this new information that at face value told us City of Heroes never left for some people, those people decided we weren't good enough to play the game and were actively lying and toying with us by giving us things like Paragon Chat. Was this true? I can't tell you that, i can take Titan Network at their word it isn't but not everyone else will. Some people feel too betrayed to even consider the idea and the to be honest with you it's hard to fault for them.

I see no concrete evidence to suggest any of it is true but i see a lot of concrete evidence that makes me want to ask questions that just can't be answered due to trying to protect what was worked on from being ruined. Not everyone is going to just be okay with trying to have faith, for a lot of people they did their best to have faith and feel betrayed. Only time will correct this by actions proving the claims to be false. If the day comes when we all have City of Heores back, even the most hurt of people will forgive and apologize but that time isn't right now. I'm not asking anyone to just let people be attacked or allow false information to be spread. All I'm asking is for some understanding, and i feel a lot of people here have done so already.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 04:08:00 PM
Where's the apology, TonyV?

You quoted your "on private servers" post earlier, but that post is full of, at best, misinformation.  The fact that you were apparently misled as to the truth doesn't excuse the fact that you put a very public face on those lies.  You called people who knew the truth "trolls".  You told everyone that SCORE was at a "very early stage".

You were wrong.  You were lied to.  If you don't want to be angry about that, that's fine.  Being chill is not a bad thing.

But you used your clout here at CoHTitan to mislead everyone away from the truth.

I think that now that it's clear that has happened, you should own up to your mistake.


A.  I'm sure Tony will respond.
B.  Are you really feeling so paranoid that you had to create a new account (if so,  I hope you're using a VPN...)
C.  I feel like at times only a few people (mis-)read some source material,  then make these wild leaps of logic that then others who haven't read the material simply react to and echo.   
 D.  I'm having a very hard time finding where in Tony's message you could attribute to him being a liar.  He has disclaimers galore (no one told him, "proof" was not substantial then, he addresses the possibility of a private server and what building it would entail,  and again declaring he doesn't know if it exists but if course there it's active work on one )
E. His "troll" comment was specifically directed at those bringing nothing constructive to the conversation,  directing them to other forums like Facebook.
F. Was Tony wrong?  I doubt think he was wrong in how he wrote that message.
G.  Was Tony lied to?  First of all, who cares and second,  if he wasnt told,  he wasn't lied to.


I think a lot of this inflated angst is self- created and unnecessarily perpetuated,  in large part reading into official statements these nefarious ideas,  or else justifying continuing to be angsty by doing such.

Edit: how is this post not intended to incite a reaction from Tony, which was Tony's entire point about trolls being unconstructive...?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 17, 2019, 04:28:46 PM
Thank you for that, Tony, I completely agree.  I've been feeling bursts of rage on this subject but not for people involved in the SCoRE work... for the people who are gibbering insanely with rage for not being told about the Secret work. 

I haven't dived into this "up and running for 6 years!" stuff, so I'm not sure what has been running, or in what condition, or with what capacity.  I feel absolutely certain that nobody "in the community" has any "right" to anything from anybody -- especially from people who have put work into learning, running, and improving the software involved with CoH -- if you've sat down and worked and taught yourself enough about the client to add rooms to Pargon chat maps -- for example, IMHO you've got some basis to weigh in on development efforts.  And if not, you're waiting for somebody to give you something.

Years ago I jokingly warned somebody in a recovery effort that the reward for anybody learning that they were making progress would be piles of abuse for them not doing enough or not going faster or not doing whatever the specific person wanted them to do.  Yeah.

I'm thrilled that anybody has been able to play the game, more thrilled that the game exists in a form that can be played, even more thrilled that all those people who said "If I can't have my characters with my stuff then I don't ever want to play again" actually have at least a possibility of getting that (personally I'd just rebuild).

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Leandro (and Xs) have needed a playing population on their server in order to develop and test.  I sincerely hope that they've distributed copies to multiple people and sources to protect against loss, but I don't believe that anybody has any right to tell them how to deal with this.  And the idea that they've somehow been villainous in this strikes me as flat-out nuts.

Word for word?

Rational and sound.

Well said, Ohioknight.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 04:45:28 PM
I made a new account because I have never needed to post anything here before?  But great start at conversation by painting me as paranoid!

As for points C-F, Tony took a stance and posted about the rumors of private servers and the progress of SCORE 4 years ago.  He quoted that post in this thread.  Tony's assertions in that post turned out to be wrong.  It's okay to be wrong, but you can't just bring up your own history with this particular rumor and not acknowledge that you were wrong.  Of course you say you don't think he was wrong in "how he wrote that message", which is a very vague way to put that, but suffice to say I disagree.

As far as who cares about Tony being lied to -  I would hope Tony would care.  I know I care, because Tony came here and spread those lies.  And if Tony wasn't lied to by virtue of never being told... then why is he making posts about things he apparently knew nothing about?  Note that Tony didn't advance that argument, that was just you, so there's nothing really but speculation.

And for "inflated angst", both "self-created" and "unnecessarily perpetuated"

1) You don't get to judge my amount of angst here.  You don't know my story or why this matters to me.  You can kindly back off
 
2) Angst is sure a fun word to use when invalidating others' feelings.  Labeling it self-created and unnecessary is a great tri-fecta of being an absolute jerk here.  Why does it matter to you if other people are feeling feelings you aren't?  Do you often deride others for not seeing things your way?

3) Perpetuated?  It's been two days.  If you can't handle two days of people asking questions, buddy maybe you're experiencing some self-created and unnecessarily inflated angst


All feelings are valid,  even my angst.   The problem is when people allow their feelings to color over and misrepresent other people's statements and use those feelings to make unfounded accusations.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 17, 2019, 04:48:21 PM
Just to punctuate what @Olivar noted - The point was not that it was bad for the original server to be designed as a bunch of services, or that a current server would not be designed that way; it was that there was a whole bunch of moving wheels and any one of them failing to move correctly could stop the whole vehicle.

Take the store as an example. The store was not a part of the server at all. It was an outside e-commerce site that the client and server communicated with to learn what premium/loyalty-rewards content the player was entitled to use. All of that vaporized the day the servers closed. Even if you had an otherwise working client/server for the game, you would NOT have any of the code related to the store aside from possibly the communication protocols used to send queries and purchases requests to it.

That's just one of the most obvious problems with trying to take a snapshot of the server and get it running.

Whatever Leandro has/had, if he had "just released it", most people would not have been in a position to do anything useful with it.

As for what he has - There's precious little hard evidence about what exactly that is. Despite what so many people are assuming, we don't know that he has source code. From what we've been told, NCSoft themselves were unable to come up with source code for the server. Leandro might well be in the same boat as NCSoft, in that someone gave him a working executable server installation, copied from an actual server (as opposed to a development machine with source files) but no actual source code. The only way to create an emulator would be to run the original server and duplicate its functionality.

If he does have source code, we don't know which version of the server it is. Cryptic themselves once accidentally published the source code of the game. The story is that they discovered the error and got rid of all but one copy and they bribed that person who got it to delete it by giving him a lifetime sub or some such. If THAT source code was in someone's hands, it would help that person understand generally how the server worked, but it would not allow him to compile an I-24 server or even contain any newer content at all.

In short - there are still too many questions to pull out the pitchforks. If its true that they were going to announce their emulator in just a couple of weeks, then it's REALLY unfortunate that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer decided that now was the time to become a freedom fighter seeking to free /r/CityofHeroes from its tyrannical oppressors.

Thank you for adding some technical colour to the debate.  Appreciated.

Yes.  The 'irony' of the 'Destroyer Stroyer' opening his trap and 'stroying' the possible chances of an 'emulator' mere weeks from launch.

The controversy alone would seem to cool any such plans.

But we'll have to wait and see.

I think Leandro, Codewalker, Score et al have their philosophy.

Given the 'nuke' that NC Soft legaled the Tab Rasa efforts with.  A lesson to be drawn there.

We know Score was working on reverse engineering.  It came out a few years ago that they'd reverse engineered the server protocol.

We've seen the 'derived' fruits of those efforts in the innovative Paragon Chat.

But it's clear to anyone that the real work was going on an ACTUAL emulated server between the pauses of Paragon Chat updates (welcome they are.)

They may well have 'leaked code' but it isn't 'legal code.'  Paragon Chat points to the philosophy that they want to reverse engineer this 'working leaked code' to side-step a legal nuke.

That's going to take time.  Maybe for legislation to catch up and help us renting MMOs only to find them, our time and our investment 'yanked' or to 'get the code right.'

I think it's fair to say, from watching Leandro's very entertaining videos on the 're-engineered' maps of Rikti Warzone, Wharf (good job on that...beautiful...) and such forth that he would probably 'get it out there' in a a less polished state whilst the likes of Codewalker is more the code perfectionist (and you can see this in Paragon Chat.) where what he does is done well and done in the spirit of the game where the 'casual' can 'just pick up and play.'  I err on the latter approach.

That's probably what is taking the time before they drop the 'hydrogen bomb' of a private server.  Perhaps they're trying to find a way to make it 'distributed' like Paragon Chat.  It would make sense in that anyone could run a private server, peer to peer, LAN or reasonably populated server with tools to make maps and a mission creator.  To prevent a 'take down' possible.  Because people could just run it in private.  P2P.

These are not modest ambitions.  But you can see with the SG bases implantation, that Codewalker is a perfectionist.  A top job done on that.

A labour of love.

It's personal.

I'm confident, as I have been all along....that they will do what is right for the community.

Throwing out a half-assed server with 'stolen code' would suffer predictable results.  Legal stomp which could jeopardise the reverse engineering works.

And their philosophy was well versed in their interview with Massively re: the launch of Paragon Chat.

They want to take the legality out of it. 

That may leave some feeling 'betrayed' but  I don't feel that way.  I can understand the need for secrecy.  And that was never that secret.  The possibility of a 'leak' was always possible in my mind.  More over, likely.  Given the nature of the last few months of Paragon Chat.  It must have left many of the employees very frustrated as much as we were in the community.

It probably got personal (wasn't it?) for the developers, for the community and the publishers.  Ergo?  'The leak.'

They were working to get a server up.  They don't want to get sued.  So they're reverse engineering it.

I thought that a.  Secrecy and b.  Reverse engineering they'd been pretty clear about for years and years.

As for having a 'leaked' copy.  Well.  That falls under NDA or 'classified' need to know status.  The ball is in their hands.  I'd trust them more than NC Soft.  What have NC given us in the last 'x' years since shut down?  Score have given us Icon and Paragon Chat and I have no doubt that the '3rd column' was being prioritised for launch.  Not if.  But when.

If that is the price for 'freedom' then I'm ok to pay that price.

It's an unholy war between Consumer and the Corporation. 

Put me on the side of the Rebel Alliance.

Clearly, the original leaker trusted them to do the right thing. 

I feel they have.  Not that they need my approval.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 04:48:39 PM

All feelings are valid,  even my angst.   The problem is when people allow their feelings to color over and misrepresent other people's statements and use those feelings to make unfounded accusations.


Edit:  it takes time to build things and only moments to destroy.
Notre Dame took 200 years to build and burned in minutes.
This community was built over the past decade+  and the conduct these past few days had been terribly damaging.
 
Everyone should re- holster their fingers and let the keyboards cool.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 17, 2019, 04:53:35 PM
Everyone should re- holster their fingers and let the keyboards cool.

I agree. 

Some don't.  For some people, this is where they get off the Merry-Go-Round. 

Eliot LeFebvre posted a opinion piece earlier. (https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/17/into-the-super-verse-the-death-of-the-city-of-heroes-community/)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Fringe Element on April 17, 2019, 04:54:04 PM

All feelings are valid,  even my angst.   The problem is when people allow their feelings to color over and misrepresent other people's statements and use those feelings to make unfounded accusations.

Well gee, if I had just called a person I've never interacted with paranoid (unfounded accusation) and asked them why they claim Tony is a liar (misrepresentation - I asked for an apology) my face would sure be red!

Anyway, I answered your points to the best of my ability and don't have much to say beyond that, except that you could use some chill of your own.

If TonyV decides to respond to my post - great!  It was directed at him, not at anyone else.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 17, 2019, 05:00:02 PM
There is no caste system. There are no "haves" and "have-nots," there's just us. ALL of us.
Then why do you get to delete people's posts and ban them from the forums and I do not?

Of course there's a hierarchy. The only system without a hierarchy is anarchy, and it's clear you're not running an anarchy here (no one runs an anarchy.)

It's all well and nice to pretend we're all alike but that's not so. I'm no more equal to Arcane than I am to Tiger Woods. And there were some people who got to play a private server while others did not. It's likely we'll never know who was included in that list, and it's not really worth the effort to find out, but the fact nevertheless remains so: there were "haves", and thus "have-nots".

Whether that includes any member of this forum community is unknown, and according to the rules of these forums, unknowable.

But you urged people to put their faith in SCoRE, and it turns out that faith was misguided. If SCoRE was our best chance to get our game back, the news this week has buried that hope.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 05:00:45 PM

Clearly, the original leaker trusted them to do the right thing. 

I feel they have.  Not that they need my approval.

Azrael.

Thank you in turn, Azrael.  It is very nice to hear a sensible perspective in a sea of ... well, all this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Fringe Element on April 17, 2019, 05:06:02 PM
Different thoughts:  This question pulling from Ohioknight and Azrael's discussion

"It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Leandro (and Xs) have needed a playing population on their server in order to develop and test.  I sincerely hope that they've distributed copies to multiple people and sources to protect against loss, but I don't believe that anybody has any right to tell them how to deal with this.  And the idea that they've somehow been villainous in this strikes me as flat-out nuts."

If the SCORE server population really has been play-testing and working towards a better future for the entire City of Heroes community... where are they?  Why the silence?

Why is no one coming forward as a SCORE playtester or dev and backing up Leandro's statement?  (to be fair, it's only been two days)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nebularian on April 17, 2019, 05:11:47 PM
It has been a LONG time since I posted in here...and I am a bit ashamed that it took something like this to bring me back!

Okay.....I can understand how people could get upset when they first learned of this....mess...is the only word I have right now.  The fecal matter hit the rotary blades and it splattered far and wide!   

What I DO not understand is how ANYONE could think it is okay to issue threats of any kind to the people involved.

I understand that trust is strained a bit...but let's be realistic.   Were some bad decisions made?  In MY opinion....yeah.  But I do not for the life of me believe any of those decisions were made in malice.

In other places....people calling for calmness are being told "You have to let people vent!"   No...really we don't.   Not when that "venting" just turns into an endless cycle of butt hurt whining.

Now it is just a case of "let's see what happens now!"   The cat is out of the bag and I don't think anyone is going to let it be put back in the bag!

Something good may come of this or it may not.   But right now....with all this uproar....who is it helping?  <crickets>   or on the other side...who could it hurt?   That question can be answered easily: SEGS, City of Titans, Heroes and Villains, Ship of Heroes, etc etc etc.

So let's take a deep breath, keep our eyes open, and see what comes of it!

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: etnies445 on April 17, 2019, 05:21:45 PM

It's not contradictory,  because I didn't address SCoRE's benefit or guilt,  because that is implied in statements about it being NCsofts property,  benefiting at ncsofts expense and labeling it as stolen..... all are not good.   But what was done is the past.


The point is what will happen going forward,  and although you conveniently skipped the second half of my post,  you so eloquently demonstrated that mentality of entitlement when you wrote that "they are completely guilty in the eyes of the community" and the only way to earn "good faith" back is to release the code.   


Two wrongs do not make a right.

So you feel that despite all the wrong in the past 5-6 years, suddenly they should care about NCSofts interest? Suddenly they can take the high ground? If thats the case, they'd need to shut down the server completely and immediately, and that wouldn't even be high ground, that'd be "oops we got caught ground". They cannot take the high ground, the damage is already done, two wrongs don't make a right, but they committed way more than two wrongs.

At this point, add one more to the list, because if they were willing to have this up and running and hidden for all those years I think they can go ahead and release it for the community that still actually mourns.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 05:25:00 PM

I also think that because there were efforts to literally buy the game from NCsoft, people put their hopes on that, instead of an emulator... 

Yeah, everyone on Titan Network had heard of SCoRE, but I was under the impression that they were working in secret to build something *to release* - and right now, I tend to lean towards believing that what they had was releasable, which is where the betrayal comes in.


So do you REMEMBER the "don't do anything to upset the negotiations" that went on for years and never did get finally resolved?  At what point during that should SCoRE have effectively announced "HEY, Look at this, there's already a private server up and running!".   

You write that at this point you "lean towards believing..." .  You don't KNOW.  You don't know anything at all about the private server except that it exists, has run, apparently with considerable success, for years, and has supported a population of approximately 3000 users with several hundred active at once.  You don't know it's stability.  You don't know it's configuration or what it takes to run.  You don't know it's origin, whether completely reverse-engineered or a modified copy of the beta code that they got to run on some insane combination of obsolete software versions and virtual machines.  You don't know if it's release could implicate someone.  You don't know anything except that it wasn't made openly available to anybody who wanted to use it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 17, 2019, 05:28:25 PM
If the SCORE server population really has been play-testing and working towards a better future for the entire City of Heroes community... where are they?  Why the silence?

Why is no one coming forward as a SCORE playtester or dev and backing up Leandro's statement?  (to be fair, it's only been two days)

Well, like many things in this matter, nobody can say for certain, but leaving aside the NDA for a moment, do you honestly think anybody wants to open themselves up to that kind of abuse?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 05:33:16 PM
Well, like many things in this matter, nobody can say for certain, but leaving aside the NDA for a moment, do you honestly think anybody wants to open themselves up to that kind of abuse?

Very good point.  This is insane.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Fringe Element on April 17, 2019, 05:33:49 PM
Well, like many things in this matter, nobody can say for certain, but leaving aside the NDA for a moment, do you honestly think anybody wants to open themselves up to that kind of abuse?

That's fair

I don't like it, because I believe the SCORE participants set themselves up for these kinds of recriminations what with all the gaslighting being done at reddit, but I agree that not wanting to face the kind of abuse that's aimed at Leandro and the /r/Cityofheroes mods is understandable
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 05:38:37 PM
So you feel that despite all the wrong in the past 5-6 years, suddenly they should care about NCSofts interest? Suddenly they can take the high ground? If thats the case, they'd need to shut down the server completely and immediately, and that wouldn't even be high ground, that'd be "oops we got caught ground". They cannot take the high ground, the damage is already done, two wrongs don't make a right, but they committed way more than two wrongs.

At this point, add one more to the list, because if they were willing to have this up and running and hidden for all those years I think they can go ahead and release it for the community that still actually mourns.


Actually,  this is the absolute point of turning back if there ever was one,  simply because the code (assuming it is ncsofts) isn't in the wild.  It's quite easy to encourage someone to commit (another) wrong when you'll be a beneficiary.  As painful as missing out on the possibility of playing on the server these past 6 years maybe, it doesn't hold a candle to the kind of fallout that could occur if ncsoft proprietary code is released-- its not just another for the pile.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 17, 2019, 05:54:34 PM
I tend to give Tony and Leo the benefit of the doubt. If Tony says he wasn't involved with a secret server, then he wasn't. If Leo was afraid of NCSoft (with good reason, those jerks), then he was afraid.

Why wouldn't one give them the benefit of the doubt? Emotion. And personalization.

But emotion isn't proof or evidence. It's not an appropriate rationale on which to make accusations. Residual anger and feelings of being left out are coloring people's judgement to assume the worst of people. People jump to the conclusion that someone somewhere acted in bad faith and they're going to sleuth around to try to prove it. That's not how reason and logic work, and it's not a path to knowledge.

This is called "personalization." First, something bad happens. In this case, it's the presumption [which could be false] that for all this time there was a fully functional server that had no issues whatsoever that they missed out on. Then, it is perceived as a personal affront, a slap in the face, and targeting of one's self. They're crying out to the powers that be, "Why me!? Why was I left out?!"

Maybe what has transpired has nothing to do with you. And your perceived sleight is just that, your perception, like Jonah angry at the broom tree.

And so, in order to justify their feelings, they twist and turn every possible thing that anyone said or did to give it the worst possible interpretation. And the best possible interpretation isn't considered... why? Emotion.

Is it possible someone acted in bad faith? Sure. But lacking real evidence and not just emotions, I'm discounting that.



Eliot LeFebvre posted a opinion piece earlier. (https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/17/into-the-super-verse-the-death-of-the-city-of-heroes-community/)

Well, there's a lengthy diatribe based on emotion. Someone did the community harm and everybody's feelings are hurt.

Well, mine ain't. And when I played CoH I was an extremely active player and member of the "community." I was in almost all the closed betas. I was invited to California for the Ultra feedback group. I edited the wiki. But it wasn't really a community, not for me. Sure, some people forged strong friendships, but I had my own personal life and family and friends. I didn't look to people on my Task Force or CoH Bulletin Board as "my community." I tried to help a spiritual successor with time and money, and when I saw it wasn't going anywhere fast, I gave up on it. I didn't take a vow to join a monastic community of CoH for the rest of my life. Furthermore, how are people forgetting all the strife that existed between various player 'communities'?

"Somebody destroyed the community" is just another emotional personalization of this whole affair.

If a working active server of CoH becomes available, I'm right there and playing it day one. If it never happens, I'm OK.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 06:11:34 PM
Personally, I REALLY miss the game -- it's absence is a hole in my life.  Paragon Chat goes furthest to help that, but I REALLY miss the game.

I think the work done by SCoRE is by far the best chance anybody will ever get to play it again.  To the degree that some people have gotten that chance... man that is so incredibly awesome.  I can't deal with "if I can't have it then other people shouldn't".  I don't know how people do that.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 06:12:59 PM
Pruned the post for the sake of thread flow

This is the second time now that I've been accused of trying to troll up some kind of massive insurrection. You say that you understand my cynicism, if you truly do, that means you're willing to step outside of your insider position within the community, your personal context with different parties involved, and see how it looks from the outside.

You made multiple references throughout your post to things like haves and have nots, and conspiracies over the years, also about how people have been conflating Paragon Chat and discussion with Paragon Chat with private servers, at best, these points are being made disingenuously given the context that we know now in the wake of the leaks.

There are, quite literally, haves and have nots. This is not up for debate any more it is simply a matter of fact. The question is, was that being done deliberately, or with some sort of elitist glee, I'm 100% willing to learn that it was not. The idea that this has just been a completely secret project that Leandro wanted to make as perfect as possible before bundling it up and releasing it into the world to become it's own unstoppable monster, popping up and forcing NCSoft's legal team into a constant wack-a-mole game of trying to shut down random private servers, that's entirely plausible. It just doesn't look that way in some ways in retrospect, largely on account of the manner in which people have guarded this secret over the years.

You have to be willing to understand here, that we have 100% full knowledge now that Leandro was running the server, that is out in the open and confirmed on multiple major news websites. This is going to naturally create a lot of guilt by association, though that may be completely unfairly, and I can understand your position here, if I was accused of being involved of something without actually reaping the benefits of having access to it I would be pissed too. It's not fair, but given the circumstances I also don't think it's fair to react to the feelings of guilt by association incredulously.

You mentioned that the conspiracy theorists over the years doing a victory lap, I've never understood this position socially, that anyone who has ever posited a conspiracy theory is forever marred as incorrect, even when their theories were confirmed over time. I can understand that there are some theories out there that was completely outlandish or unfounded, but some of them were spot on and likely directly informed by earlier, smaller scale leaks. I don't quite understand the disdain for those people who were on the money with their theories of a server existing that we all now know to be a fact. As a third party, one who was not banging on the conspiracy wardrums over the years and one who is not a community insider or, more so, a member of the NDA party, it looks like people being upset over getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar. That's just how it comes across. I don't mean it as an accusation I'm just asking that you understand that the optics look bad on it.

I apologize for pushing the concept of a caste system, and ultimately that is unfair. My personal background was working in the esports industry, I know that at the time CSGO was being developed, a number of pro players from previous CS iterations were invited to playtest and provide feedback and I completely understand the importance and the value in that. I can see how that may have been the case for this server, where they needed people they knew were active, knowledgeable players and I can understand that people were being extremely selective because it needed to be people who could guard the secret long enough for it to reach fruition. I just don't think the outright vitriol and condescension towards people who have caught wind of this project over the years and felt it was sinister is fair at all.

People involved with the project can follow the NDA and protect the secret without being jerks about it, and in retrospect going back and seeing posts where people are quite literally outlining some of the aspects of it that we now know to be true, while scoffing at it and mocking the idea of it, it's a MAJOR contributor to why people feel there was overt elitism and gaslighting involved and I truly hope you and others are willing to understand that.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 06:13:28 PM
[Edit: Deleted... stuff. --TonyV]

I might not have posted in the forums, but I stayed up late at night, running people through iTrials, teaching them the mechanics, and carrying them through badge runs of content.

I was one of those people tossing inf at newbies to encourage the game to grow.

I was one of those people who invited her friends and family to play alongside her.

I'm not a troll. I'm not here just to make problems. My concerns are not inherently invalid and do not need to be silenced because there is a chance that everything "will work out in the end and that's all that matters."

[Edit: I don't believe you're a troll, which is why I'm not nuking this post entirely. But that stuff you said at the beginning... I have NO idea where that came from, and honestly, I don't want to know. Needless to say, it's baseless, and we really aren't going to let stuff like that just hang out there. Again, you don't have to be unicorn and rainbows happy, but we're not going to allow angry lashings-out, either. --TonyV]
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 17, 2019, 06:21:16 PM
So do you REMEMBER the "don't do anything to upset the negotiations" that went on for years and never did get finally resolved?  At what point during that should SCoRE have effectively announced "HEY, Look at this, there's already a private server up and running!".

I do remember. I also remember the gradual death of anything concerning negotiations, and what I perceived to be the general assumption that negotiations were over. Sure, it was good to not open up about a server while the negotiations were going on, but I personally lost hope completely in NCsoft negotiations. Maybe SCoRE didn't, but then they should have said "we were secret because of potentially ongoing negotiations," which has not been mentioned at all in this drama.

You don't KNOW.  You don't know anything at all about the private server except that it exists, has run, apparently with considerable success, for years, and has supported a population of approximately 3000 users with several hundred active at once.  You don't know it's stability.  You don't know it's configuration or what it takes to run.  You don't know it's origin, whether completely reverse-engineered or a modified copy of the beta code that they got to run on some insane combination of obsolete software versions and virtual machines.  You don't know if it's release could implicate someone.  You don't know anything except that it wasn't made openly available to anybody who wanted to use it.

Based on two things you've said, I'll clarify my position. If the release of code would implicate a dev who stole code from NCsoft, that is the only *current* reason that not releasing would be acceptable to me (I'm not sure they actually have dev-stolen code; the only thing confirmed is a character database, which is not quite the same (although just as legally questionable)).

I highlight "current" because of what you say we know: the private server "has run, apparently with considerable success, for years, and has supported a population of approximately 3000 users with several hundred active at once." If the code was still being worked on, I would understand delaying release until it was "good enough." But it seem like we're in agreement that it was completely viable, usable, and that it *works*1. And it was my understanding, and I think the understanding of a lot of other people, that SCoRE was *supposed to release what they appear to currently have*. I do have serious doubts about the credibility of the leakers, especially when they start calling people out individually. But based on what I've seen, it doesn't seem, to me, like there was actually any short-term internal SCoRE plan to release the code.

I'm still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but none of the statements released by SCoRE so far have given me any indication that they have not betrayed what I believe was their original purpose: to create, *and release*, a working CoH server. Maybe they *were* going to release for the 15th anniversary... but if that's the case, there's absolutely no reason to push that back, now that everything is public.

1You do mention that we don't know its stability, but that's right after acknowledging it's stable enough to have hundreds of concurrent users (although I admit there may be semantics between "concurrent user" stability vs. "long term server stability and how long it goes before crashing" that we may differ on, and I probably use "stability" in a more colloquial sense than a specific programmer sense).

Personally, I REALLY miss the game -- it's absence is a hole in my life.  Paragon Chat goes furthest to help that, but I REALLY miss the game.

I think the work done by SCoRE is by far the best chance anybody will ever get to play it again.  To the degree that some people have gotten that chance... man that is so incredibly awesome.  I can't deal with "if I can't have it then other people shouldn't".  I don't know how people do that.

Since I'm replying to you, I may as well reply to you again :p I also disagree with "if I can't have it then other people shouldn't". My stance is more like "if other people have it, everyone should have it" ("it" being an actually working CoH server, not just one that was in development).

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quotes above no longer link properly. But they are unmodified, and the originals can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kheprera on April 17, 2019, 06:25:53 PM
*sigh*

I am not angry at the SCoRE team. I am thankful. We believed the game dead. It's not. There is hope.

But so many assumptions is slowly killing that newfound hope. Anger. Passion. Belief of being personally victimized. I do understand those feelings. As said before, being left out, of not being one of the "Chosen" can be a bitter pill.

Assumptions that the private server has been useable for all these 6 years is just that, an assumption. Leandro has dedicated a great deal to support this community, Paragon Chat, the successors, and SCoRE. I don't know him except from his posts here and his videos. I sincerely doubt he has any more idea of who I am than any of you do.

We now know the game isn't dead. It has been in hiding, healing from the blow dealt by NCSoft. We know that part of the reason NCSoft would not sell is because some of the code used in CoX was used in some of their other games that were (are?) still running. I can visualize that SCoRE's mission would be to clean up the Spaghetti Code, re-engineer it, maybe to the point that it is entirely new code that would keep NCSoft off their back. Such an effort would take years of work and enough playtesters to check for bugs and issues.

I'm a technical training writer for the US Government. My coding abilities are limited to HTML, Javascript, and a bit of CSS. I can code a very pretty webpage and that's about it. Keeping some of the stuff I write secret is a requirement of my job. I've been doing it for 20 years, and it really isn't easy to always stay quiet. When the massive changes to the Form 1040 hit last year, I wanted to scream about it to everyone because of my frustrations, but I had to keep quiet.

It could not be easy for people on the Private Server to stay quiet. I can imagine the desire to scream, "LOOK! OUR CITY ISN'T DEAD! STAY STRONG!" But in order to make sure the debugging, coding, and testing went as smooth as possible without a lot of extra chefs in the kitchen making scrambled eggs out of tomato soup, silence was required.

I hope the community's anger passes, and that forgiveness can be found. I hope that, in the end, we'll be able to fly side by side through Paragon to defeat the invading Rikti once again.

Kheprera: Paragon Gris Gris, Fennec Enterprises, and The Dawn Academy
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: SilverAgeFan on April 17, 2019, 06:29:10 PM
If a working active server of CoH becomes available, I'm right there and playing it day one. If it never happens, I'm OK.

I remember you from the original forums and it's good to see your level headed post here, ZM. I find myself agreeing with everything you say here... except for the bit quoted above.

The one takeaway for me from this big stir is that if it never happens, I'm not OK about it. I will continue to be sad and to feel hurt. Of course, dealing with that is no one else's responsibility.

But wow, the rawness still there, lurking below the surface more present than I expected. Probably in part because I dismissed the closure of CoH in my adult brain as something to be minimized. "It's not like the death of a family member, friend, or pet. It's not like the loss of a world heritage site." And yes, that is true.

But the loss felt around CoH for me is very real. And experiences with those other forms of loss have taught me that some losses never heal entirely, you just learn to live with the echo in your heart of what once was and the very real pain that sometimes gets drawn back up to the surface. So I need to do a little more work with myself on this one, including acknowledging at least privately to myself that despite it feeling silly and immature in the context of my greater adult life, the loss of CoH was a significant event for me.

I encourage anyone else reeling or emotionally confused after the last 48 hours to do the same a little: honor yourself and show compassion to yourself. The pain sucks. And its continued existence isn't necessarily anyone's fault or shortcoming—not TonyV's, not Leandro's, not the community's, definitely not your own, and maybe not even the people at NCSoft's. Instead, this is a part of the human condition and our relationship to loss.

In my experiences, one of the worst parts about living with pain is how it can cloud judgment and inspire words and actions that you later are ashamed of.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 17, 2019, 06:42:04 PM
1You do mention that we don't know its stability, but that's right after acknowledging it's stable enough to have hundreds of concurrent users (although I admit there may be semantics between "concurrent user" stability vs. "long term server stability and how long it goes before crashing" that we may differ on, and I probably use "stability" in a more colloquial sense than a specific programmer sense).

It's worth noting that in his video, People's Hero Mr. Destroyer Stroyer specifically called out how:

That is a description of a server with a handful of active users that is still in need of further work; not a server with hundreds of active users and smooth as silk performance.

"3000 users", wherever that number came from, is a number spread over six years or more. If we take Mr. Destroyer Stroyer at his word, via his statements on his video, most of the people invited to the server either declined the invitations entirely or only came in for a short while before losing interest. He is not describing a thriving server full of supergroups and a vibrant community. He's describing the same sort of user base that uses Paragon Chat. Putting his "Liberator of /r/CityofHeroes" act aside, I suspect that what Mr. Destroyer Stroyer really hoped would happen is that the the server admins would be "forced" to open the server up to the public and Mr. Destroyer Stroyer would get the server-wide community in-game that he felt was missing and was therefore responsible for his feeling of it being non-fun to be a member of the server. (Yes, I'm aware he was banned. I don't think that changes his motivations, particularly, but only he really knows why he took the actions he took.)

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 06:48:19 PM

"3000 users", wherever that number came from, is a number spread over six years or more. If we take Mr. Destroyer Stroyer at his word, via his statements on his video, most of the people invited to the server either declined the invitations entirely or only came in for a short while before losing interest.

Very valuable point that a lot of people conflate in the discussion of this. The amount of users the leaker had seen signed up on the forums is in no way indicative of the server's capacity or capabilities, especially given other leaks that show that a number of the invited players never even signed in or signed in once and did not play.

Overlooked statements like the zone running like crap definitely lends a lot of credibility to the point that this was not some glorious, perfect time capsule but a work in progress that is not ready for the sort of traffic that a full public release would garner and the attempts to pressure them into releasing it AS IS RIGHT THIS SECOND is likely a "Watch what you wish for" lesson in the making.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 06:49:44 PM
Overlooked statements like the zone running like crap definitely lends a lot of credibility to the point that this was not some glorious, perfect time capsule but a work in progress that is not ready for the sort of traffic that a full public release would garner and the attempts to pressure them into releasing it AS IS RIGHT THIS SECOND is likely a "Watch what you wish for" lesson in the making.

I think most of us would prefer to be a part of that development, and don't particularly care about how crap it runs when they have our characters, and supergroup bases.

Some have even seen screenshots of the characters, names and all, of friends' toons, friends who have been dead for years since the end of CoX.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 06:53:00 PM
Everyone keeps trying to say the server wasn't ready, except the guy who made it.

Direct qoute

Leandro writes. "The last discussion on an open event leading to a public release was for the game's 15th Anniversary, which is coming in just a couple of weeks. Nobody who wasn't part of SCORE will believe that, but sometimes timing is just that bad."

Clearly it was ready for public testing. Please stop saying it isn't.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 17, 2019, 07:02:03 PM
I remember you from the original forums and it's good to see your level headed post here, ZM.

And I, you! **hugs**

"3000 users", wherever that number came from, is a number spread over six years or more. If we take Mr. Destroyer Stroyer at his word, via his statements on his video, most of the people invited to the server either declined the invitations entirely or only came in for a short while before losing interest. He is not describing a thriving server full of supergroups and a vibrant community. He's describing the same sort of user base that uses Paragon Chat.

Back in the days, if any player server got down to those numbers, we'd be declaring the server 'dead' and demanding the Devs to let everyone transfer to a live server.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 07:05:13 PM
Everyone keeps trying to say the server wasn't ready, except the guy who made it.

Direct qoute

Leandro writes. "The last discussion on an open event leading to a public release was for the game's 15th Anniversary, which is coming in just a couple of weeks. Nobody who wasn't part of SCORE will believe that, but sometimes timing is just that bad."

Clearly it was ready for public testing. Please stop saying it isn't.

The initial comments I saw about that anniversary event seemed more like a short term shindig for the public and not just them opening the floodgates to everyone for sustained gameplay.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 07:05:37 PM

And it was my understanding, and I think the understanding of a lot of other people, that SCoRE was *supposed to release what they appear to currently have*.


I'm not quite certain where you got the idea that SCoRE was "supposed" to do anything at all aside from the personal statements of people that such a loosely affiliated effort existed and that it would eventually "return the game to the community" as a "promise to the community" and that a "server would exist" and the community "would have it" at some undefined point in the future.   I don't recall anything at all regarding timeline, form, obligations or really anything at all since all references prior to Leandro's public statement were couched in deniability. 

People may have made assumptions on that, like they won't run a server for several years with only invitees, or "as soon as they have a functioning server they'll release the code publicly" but there was never any such commitment that I recall and I obsessively poured over every remotest hint on what SCoRE was up to.

Furthermore, SCoRE has never, to my knowledge, taken anything from the community (I gather they took donations from players to help fund the servers per a screenshot of a forum I saw) but they've given the community Paragon Chat with Leandro being the host/supporter of the Tequila loader software.  And that means I have derived great personal value from them with no cost or commitment from myself which would make me pretty ungrateful to complain that they haven't given me more.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 07:12:04 PM

 Leandro has dedicated a great deal to support this community, Paragon Chat, the successors, and SCoRE. I don't know him except from his posts here and his videos.


I know him from Facebook, I like his pup and I admire his running.  I'm sorry he's deleted his account but I can hardly imagine not doing so in the face of this dangerously insane reaction.



Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 07:14:27 PM
I'm not quite certain where you got the idea that SCoRE was "supposed" to do anything at all... snipped by Kistulot

If they got data from someone containing all of our characters, all of our supergroup bases, all of our content, and they dont want to find a way to give it back to us, if they aren't "supposed" to do that, then I don't even know what you want me to expect people to do.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MyriVerse on April 17, 2019, 07:22:34 PM
Character and supergroup data should not be part of any server code. Those things are completely different animals.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 17, 2019, 07:26:31 PM
Clearly it was ready for public testing. Please stop saying it isn't.

Can you quote where anybody said those words, above?

What I at least am saying is that whatever state it's in, what Destroyer Stroyer described is NOT some wonderful perfect copy of the original NCSoft server that Leandro has been sitting on and refusing to share.

Likewise, if they were considering an "event leading to a release" then the current level of scrutiny has convinced them that the current level of completeness is NOT ready for prime time.

Quote
PC Gamer:
Update, 3 pm PDT: In an email, Leandro clarified that while the SCORE server wouldn't be made public, eventually the source code behind it would be. Because of the legal risk once the project was made public, Leandro says the team has pushed back a release in order to get it as feature-complete as possible. "So the deadline of 'when it's done' was probably pushed way farther that it needed to be, in retrospect," Leandro writes. "The last discussion on an open event leading to a public release was for the game's 15th Anniversary, which is coming in just a couple of weeks. Nobody who wasn't part of SCORE will believe that, but sometimes timing is just that bad."

I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you want to quote Leandro about the projected release and say, "He was going to release it sometime soon; it must be ready", you can't then ignore that it was also Leandro who decided that the current state of the server was NOT conducive to a release that will be scrutinized to the level that such a release will now be scrutinized. Likewise, if we take PC Gamer and/or Massively at face value regarding their emailed conversations with Leandro, then it appears that the issue is (and I freely admit that I'm speculating now) that he expects action from NCSoft as soon as the server is released, so he now wants to have it be not just "ready for testing" but "finished" to the point where no more work is required and it can be disseminated widely enough that action by NCSoft will be futile.

It doesn't really matter if you or I would say, "Frag the deficiencies! Give us the server!" Leandro's got the server and it's his yardstick that measures how close it is to ready; not ours.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 07:28:04 PM
I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you want to quote Leandro about the projected release and say, "He was going to release it sometime soon; it must be ready", you can't then ignore that it was also Leandro who decided that the current state of the server was NOT conducive to a release that will be scrutinized to the level that such a release will now be scrutinized.

Hears the thing

We argue that Leandro's decision on when it's ready is irrelevant, and false, because the elements we care about are there.

Hell, a buggy, slow, miserable +4x8 council mission being runnable, able to go to my SG base I dont have a backup for.

I want it for that alone, and even if just the last part is doable, why should he be the one to decide I don't get to have it?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 07:31:52 PM
Can you quote where anybody said those words, above?

What I at least am saying is that whatever state it's in, what Destroyer Stroyer described is NOT some wonderful perfect copy of the original NCSoft server that Leandro has been sitting on and refusing to share.

Likewise, if they were considering an "event leading to a release" then the current level of scrutiny has convinced them that the current level of completeness is NOT ready for prime time.

I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you want to quote Leandro about the projected release and say, "He was going to release it sometime soon; it must be ready", you can't then ignore that it was also Leandro who decided that the current state of the server was NOT conducive to a release that will be scrutinized to the level that such a release will now be scrutinized. Likewise, if we take PC Gamer and/or Massively at face value regarding their emailed conversations with Leandro, then it appears that the issue is (and I freely admit that I'm speculating now) that he expects action from NCSoft as soon as the server is released, so he now wants to have it be not just "ready for testing" but "finished" to the point where no more work is required and it can be disseminated widely enough that action by NCSoft will be futile.

It doesn't really matter if you or I would say, "Frag the deficiencies! Give us the server!" Leandro's got the server and it's his yardstick that measures how close it is to ready; not ours.

Did you literally ignore everything i said past that? I said specificly and let me bold and make it bigger for you,  PUBLIC TESTING . One could assume from "Public event that would lead to a release" Means they were ready to extend the scope of the server testing to a more strainful setting. Don't try and bash me because you can't read. Also, exactly what are you to Score that you can make claims without citation? All I've done is cite his claim of a pending public test and its closing in on a release. None of what i said is incorrect information based on his own words. My statement was purely in contention of people saying the server isn't ready while the guy working on it seems to being saying otherwise.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 07:49:08 PM
If they got data from someone containing all of our characters, all of our supergroup bases, all of our content, and they dont want to find a way to give it back to us.

So he apparently got a dump of all character/base content from an anonymous source... what would you want him to do with that?  Publish the file to an anonymous server so everybody in the world can have your (and everybody else's) character/base data to use however they want (apparently the plan)?  Delete the files?  Delete YOUR data specifically (based on his best guess as to what data that is)?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: primeknight on April 17, 2019, 07:52:02 PM
I thought I'd write a comment: I haven't posted in years.

I'd like to play the game again.  It's just that simple.  So the question this: How can we make this happen or how can Leo help, how can we help Leo?

Years ago he gave me the files for the Costume Creator so I figure he's a decent and helpful guy.  And he's probably pretty smart too.  And, it's all a matter of trust and legality.  I'd like to read what Leo said so if someone could link that or PM me that'd be great.

Maybe if people reached out to him and was kind and helpful he'd be willing to let others in or at the very least give other trusted people backups.  This game is bigger than him.  What happens if he gets sick or something.  It'd be wise to help make this thing more distributed.  And It's good to know that it exists at all and hopefully there's a way to open it up to others.  Before today I thought it was gone forever. 

I haven't been around much: I have a kid and he's my life away from work.  I found a few other hobbies and there's other things in my life.  I've grown and changed and there's more to me than a wonderful game and community.  That being said: I revisit my favorite things from time to time and this game was/is up there.  Maybe everyone needs to put things in perspective:  let yourself be inspired and be kind.

Regardless to my point: CoH ranks in my top 10 of games I've ever played and I'd like to show it off to my kids someday.  The entire game was brilliant and weird and eclectic and if there was a video game museum it deserves to be there:  There should be a copy in the Library of Congress: even if ownership based to different hands it was still created on the soil of the USA. 

So here's my offer:
If anyone wants or needs another set of eyes or needs someone to talk to about this great. PM me.  If someone wants to give me access to something more than icon or ParagonChat then awesome.  If someone wants me to help them figure out a way to distribute information or whatever.  I'd like to help in someway.  PM me if you read this and there's anything I can do.

My real name is William, I live in Oregon in the US and I'm a controls engineer that runs projects and is buried in code all day.  I love the game and the closest thing I can give showing my love of and dedication to the game is this forum post and this article that got published years ago:
https://www.engadget.com/2012/11/03/the-game-archaeologist-a-city-of-heroes-memorial-part-2/
An except from what I wrote is in the above article
Quote
William: Prime Knight (right)

My small addition to the City of Heroes is Prime Knight. He's the second character I ever created, and he's one of the two characters I bought the game for. He also fulfilled my gaming desire to fly in a three-dimensional environment. Prime Knight is a Mind/Kinetics controller who has all the powers I've ever wanted to have myself: telekinesis, telepathy, precog, flight, teleportation, electrokenesis, pyrokinesis -- and he even has a faithful dog.

He's saved the city numerous times from numerous vile and power-hungry foes. And I'm saddened by the fact I'll never get the opportunity to fly into a group of bad guys with reckless abandon, generating mass confusion, lighting things on fire with my mind, electrocuting everything in sight, siphoning speed, or just repelling/telekinesis-ing foes off the tops of buildings.

That's all I've got for now.  Good luck out there and keep "flying"
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 07:52:54 PM
So he apparently got a dump of all character/base content from an anonymous source... what would you want him to do with that?  Publish the file to an anonymous server so everybody in the world can have your (and everybody else's) character/base data to use however they want (apparently the plan)?  Delete the files?  Delete YOUR data specifically (based on his best guess as to what data that is)?

Here's the thing, mate:

He's gotten to make that choice for me. He already does publish it on his server, have access to it, and use it for whatever he wants.

I'd rather he put it all out there for everyone, but as it is, it's just his. He owns it. I never even knew it was out there.

And I get to wait for his merciful judgement to declare I get to have it, and who knows, maybe I never do if someone leaking it--read, NOT ME--means we now don't get it for the 15th anniversary, or who knows when we do.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: SilverAgeFan on April 17, 2019, 07:54:36 PM
So he apparently got a dump of all character/base content from an anonymous source... what would you want him to do with that?  Publish the file to an anonymous server so everybody in the world can have your (and everybody else's) character/base data to use however they want (apparently the plan)?  Delete the files?  Delete YOUR data specifically (based on his best guess as to what data that is)?

This honestly, for me, is the most enticing and gut wrenching aspect of the story. I know you're having a conversation directly with Kitsulot.

But my $.02—I hope the data is preserved, backed up at a second site, and eventually made recoverable.

Access to a CoH i20 or later server? I'm interested.

Access to a CoH i20 or later server AND the ability to recover my original stable of characters instead of PL'ing their facsimiles? Crazy interested.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kheprera on April 17, 2019, 08:06:45 PM
*snip*
The entire game was brilliant and weird and eclectic and if there was a video game museum it deserves to be there:  There should be a copy in the Library of Congress: even if ownership based to different hands it was still created on the soil of the USA. 
*snip*

There is. The National Videogame Museum. It's in Frisco, Texas. I was there last summer.

http://www.nvmusa.org/ (http://www.nvmusa.org/)

I'd love to be able to run some of the missions I never got to as I was always distracted by SG shenanigans. What I want back... full character sheets and listing of badges, bases that I worked on but didn't save (because I believed the SG Leader had nabbed them and we'd be back soon). Those things I'd like back. Petty, selfish things.

My group? Still going. Still playing. Still up to shenanigans and expanding beyond Paragon. We've stuck it through, recruited new members, and persevered. If CoX comes back, great, but we've grown beyond and keep looking to the stars.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Radionuclide on April 17, 2019, 08:08:03 PM
This holds true today just as much as it did then. The only difference is that now we know there's a private server. Well, bully for them. I'm not jealous of the people who have been playing on it, because I personally am no worse off than I was this time last week. When Leandro says that he intended--and still intends--to release the code, given his reputation for actually producing stuff for the community and contributing to projects like Paragon Chat, I don't get all pissed off scorched-earth at him, I take him at his word. In my humble opinion, he's earned that over the years, and it disappoints me greatly that too many people can't see past their own anger to realize it.

Tony, I agreed with almost everything else you posted here except this. It is great that you take him at his word. Perhaps that is because you interact with him more than others, perhaps it is something else. I don't know and it is not really important. You still trust him and that is fine. But, step back and think about being someone not in that situation. We have been lied to (by SCORE) for 6 years and we are supposed to take him (as the face of SCORE) at his word now? There really is no way around this. Yes, those lies were done in the interest of keeping the secret but, lies none the less. Active attempts to gaslight previously leakers (calling the crazy, etc). Active attempts to remove references to a private server by becoming a Mod on the subreddit for the community and establishing rules in the Auto-mod to remove them. Grousing with us about not being able to play and doing so all that time. I'm not even saying he/himself did all these things (though some he did). I'm saying he is the face of SCORE who did these things.

Trust is built, as you hinted at over time. But, it is so fragile that it can be destroyed in seconds. I won't speak for others. It's not that I can't see past by anger. It's that I cannot see past my hurt of being lied to. That trust will have to be rebuilt.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 08:11:42 PM
Active attempts to gaslight previously leakers (calling the crazy, etc).

Things like this need to be addressed.

The fact that outside of any legalities, long term plans, etc, people were hurt by this, people were treated unfairly, needs to be treated as more than "well they shouldn't have leaked the game! :D"
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 08:14:13 PM
If they got data from someone containing all of our characters, all of our supergroup bases, all of our content, and they dont want to find a way to give it back to us, if they aren't "supposed" to do that, then I don't even know what you want me to expect people to do.


I'm just quoting you because it is a nice snippet.... these references to "our" characters.... we have no ownership of them beyond the sentimental.  They're glorified configuration files that may be nicer to have access to,  but there's no obligation to release such things if they are even accessible.    Plus, if you used Codewalker's character tool to download config info,  a long hash code was generated  for your characters if they were to ever be re-integrated into a server with a validation function to ensure they were legitimate.....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 08:20:54 PM
This might be a bit off topic but weren't there websites where we could list our characters and builds, things like that? I'm trying to remember some of my CoX characters but I'm realizing a lot of characters from CO and DCUO are blurring together in my brain and I'm wondering if any of those old CoX based sites are still active.

Even if we did have access to our old characters I don't know that I'd be able to even claim them if they're not somehow hooked to our old account names as that's the only thing I can find reliably through digging through old emails.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 08:21:04 PM

I'm just quoting you because it is a nice snippet.... these references to "our" characters.... we have no ownership of them beyond the sentimental.  They're glorified configuration files that may be nicer to have access to,  but there's no obligation to release such things if they are even accessible.    Plus, if you used Codewalker's character tool to download config info,  a long hash code was generated  for your characters if they were to ever be re-integrated into a server with a validation function to ensure they were legitimate.....

By all means, quote me, go ahead.

If they aren't our characters, if they weren't made by us, leveled by us, used by us, if you're going to take issue with the fact that they were ours, then there's no point in talking then, is there? Because you don't respect the emotional attachment many of us have to the game.

And hey, you know, I sure can use that character tool to play in Co--oh right, I can't, because even if I had access to all of my character data (and I do, because hey, I was around here near the end like everyone else who was!) the best ~I~ have access to is paragon chat, which only really cares about costumes anyway.

If you aren't even going to respect people's basic feelings as to why they're feeling how they are, then your arguments inherently come from a negative place.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 08:23:44 PM
If they aren't our characters, if they weren't made by us, leveled by us, used by us, if you're going to take issue with the fact that they were ours, then there's no point in talking then, is there? Because you don't respect the emotional attachment many of us have to the game.

If anything they're sorta Schrödinger's characters now.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 08:27:20 PM
I think most of us would prefer to be a part of that development, and don't particularly care about how crap it runs when they have our characters, and supergroup bases.

I don't doubt that, but there would be at least some challenges there like..
1. Most people don't really know how to test software
2. Contending with complaints and scope creep
3. The pressure of publicity resulting on a c&d means the won't be a beta testing period. -- it's basically going from alpha testing (usually with friends and family) straight to Gold (sound familiar?)

Some have even seen screenshots of the characters, names and all, of friends' toons, friends who have been dead for years since the end of CoX.
Yes, and we've lost many.   I used to run with the Monday night Freedom Horde TFs, and was sad to discover that one of the leaders, a very nice woman whom was the last I said farewell to on shutdown morning,  passed.  It sucks and we won't ever get those experiences back. ) ' :

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 08:31:37 PM
If anything they're sorta Schrödinger's characters now.

I'm going to be done addressing you directly. Sorry. It's not productive.

I don't doubt that, but there would be at least some challenges there like..
1. Most people don't really know how to test software
2. Contending with complaints and scope creep
3. The pressure of publicity resulting on a c&d means the won't be a beta testing period. -- it's basically going from alpha testing (usually with friends and family) straight to Gold (sound familiar?)

So?

I have heard from people on that server. 1 is garbage because no one had qualifications with beta testing to get in, 2 we just want the damned game, 3 then release it and let the community sort it out because I've never heard of software updating after launch faster because MORE people can look at it. If anything, your arguments show why it should have been shared with more people sooner. Also enough people with it means you can't C&D SCORE and kill cox. Done.

Yes, and we've lost many.   I used to run with the Monday night Freedom Horde TFs, and was sad to discover that one of the leaders, a very nice woman whom was the last I said farewell to on shutdown morning,  passed.  It sucks and we won't ever get those experiences back. ) ' :

I respect your losses, and they're sad for us all the people we've lost...

But you just read what I said and didn't actually listen, respond to it, etc. People's data is already being used. Data from people who are dead is being used for joyrides in other people's characters. That's a thing that I take issue with.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 08:35:39 PM
This might be a bit off topic but weren't there websites where we could list our characters and builds, things like that? I'm trying to remember some of my CoX characters but I'm realizing a lot of characters from CO and DCUO are blurring together in my brain and I'm wondering if any of those old CoX based sites are still active.

Even if we did have access to our old characters I don't know that I'd be able to even claim them if they're not somehow hooked to our old account names as that's the only thing I can find reliably through digging through old emails.

Do you mean this one?

https://cit.cohtitan.com/

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 17, 2019, 08:40:28 PM
This might be a bit off topic but weren't there websites where we could list our characters and builds, things like that? I'm trying to remember some of my CoX characters but I'm realizing a lot of characters from CO and DCUO are blurring together in my brain and I'm wondering if any of those old CoX based sites are still active.

Even if we did have access to our old characters I don't know that I'd be able to even claim them if they're not somehow hooked to our old account names as that's the only thing I can find reliably through digging through old emails.
Do you mean this one?

https://cit.cohtitan.com/

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quotes above no longer link properly. But they are unmodified, and the originals can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).

I assume that's what Weenus was going for, but it's worth noting that Mids also had a way to export / import builds.

Edit: Hmm, my characters aren't showing up on CIT. That's odd.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 08:42:09 PM
Those of us that exported our characters with Sentinel+ would have a better shot at proving any given character belonged to a particular account.  Unless the City Tracker goes away, it too demonstrates the association between characters and accounts.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 08:44:31 PM
By all means, quote me, go ahead.

If they aren't our characters, if they weren't made by us, leveled by us, used by us, if you're going to take issue with the fact that they were ours, then there's no point in talking then, is there? Because you don't respect the emotional attachment many of us have to the game.

And hey, you know, I sure can use that character tool to play in Co--oh right, I can't, because even if I had access to all of my character data (and I do, because hey, I was around here near the end like everyone else who was!) the best ~I~ have access to is paragon chat, which only really cares about costumes anyway.

If you aren't even going to respect people's basic feelings as to why they're feeling how they are, then your arguments inherently come from a negative place.



But you just read what I said and didn't actually listen, respond to it, etc. People's data is already being used. Data from people who are dead is being used for joyrides in other people's characters. That's a thing that I take issue with.


The points are that the characters aren't proprietary, could theoretically be recovered if you used the enhanced character tool CodeWalker wrote and the server had validation.  Finally, I certainly doubt anyone is taking them on a joyride as you wrote, especially given what the leaker said about confirming account and character names and character copy tool.  You must have been burning up if someone duped a character in Live too...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 08:45:15 PM
I'm going to be done addressing you directly. Sorry. It's not productive.

Weenus uses LEVITY.

It's not very effective . . .

Do you mean this one?

https://cit.cohtitan.com/

This is exactly what I was thinking of, I wasn't looking far enough down on the TitanNetwork home page, thank you!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 17, 2019, 08:49:12 PM
Data from people who are dead is being used for joyrides in other people's characters. That's a thing that I take issue with.

Wait are people elsewhere alleging that or did you just come up with it? Pretty sure even those of us who aren't angry would take exception if we thought anyone was using other people's characters. But it never even crossed my mind that anyone would want to, much less that it'd be allowed even if the private server were as moustache twisting as some believe.

Personally I'd probably still not be angry, not sure I have the capacity for such feels. And the anger would be outweighed by the theoretical schadenfreude at the idea of someone else faceplanting my ta or khelds.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 08:50:34 PM

I have heard from people on that server. 1 is garbage because no one had qualifications with beta testing to get in, 2 we just want the damned game, 3 then release it and let the community sort it out because I've never heard of software updating after launch faster because MORE people can look at it. If anything, your arguments show why it should have been shared with more people sooner. Also enough people with it means you can't C&D SCORE and kill cox. Done.

Truly written like a gamer and not a software developer.... thank you for proving my point.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 08:51:00 PM
Wait are people elsewhere alleging that or did you just come up with it? Pretty sure even those of us who aren't angry would take exception of we thought anyone was using other people's characters. But it never even crossed my mind that anyone would want to, much less that it'd be allowed even if the private server were as moustache twisting as some believe.

Personally I'd probably still not be angry, not sure I have the capacity for such feels. And the anger would be outweighed by the theoretical schadenfreude at the idea of someone else faceplanting my ta or khelds.

It was a reddit thread, someone stated he noticed a character name/costume in the video belonging to a dead friend of his. You're welcome to search for it on the subreddit if you'd like. I'm not gonna sort through them for it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 17, 2019, 08:52:06 PM
Wait are people elsewhere alleging that or did you just come up with it? Pretty sure even those of us who aren't angry would take exception of we thought anyone was using other people's characters. But it never even crossed my mind that anyone would want to, much less that it'd be allowed even if the private server were as moustache twisting as some believe.

Personally I'd probably still not be angry, not sure I have the capacity for such feels. And the anger would be outweighed by the theoretical schadenfreude at the idea of someone else faceplanting my ta or khelds.

My data could be false, and I'd be the first to swallow it and apologize, but I have heard from multiple sources that unclaimed characters were occasionally being used, if not the most commonly.

That said, I fell asleep leveling my peacebringer and revived them almidst waking back up, so they wouldn't have too bad a time with mine  ;)

And yeah, it's all just data, and yeah, I honestly don't care if someone else downloads Argent Girl after the data drops if it does and uses her... I just want to be able to, and someone made that choice without us involved, and I'm callin schenanigans.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 08:53:14 PM
Are your characters in the tracker?  Mine are and it hurts again to see how long it's been since they were last seen.

As for characters and accounts, I also have almost a terabyte of screenshots and FRAPS videos.  Including the character selection screens after login.  Those are best because they show blocks of characters associated with my account.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 08:57:21 PM
Weenus uses LEVITY.

It's not very effective . . .

I LOL'D irl, First time I did that reading this thread in what feels like ages.  ( ' :
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 09:05:31 PM

 Plus, if you used Codewalker's character tool to download config info,  a long hash code was generated  for your characters if they were to ever be re-integrated into a server with a validation function to ensure they were legitimate.....

I only watched little bits of the destroyer video but wasn't this tool how they were loading the character data back?  I kindof got the impression that what he got was a full Codewalker file format download for every character on the system (I could be completely mistaken on that).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 17, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
It was a reddit thread, someone stated he noticed a character name/costume in the video belonging to a dead friend of his. You're welcome to search for it on the subreddit if you'd like. I'm not gonna sort through them for it.

I'll take your word for it. I'm all set for mounds of unexpected reading just here. But afterlife login seems like a pretty sweet new feature.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 09:07:34 PM
This whole situation is shameful, and those involved should feel shame, rather than attempt to defend the undefendable.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 09:07:45 PM
It honestly boils my blood quite a bit still.  Think of the people who died waiting to play this game again.  Think of all those stories we heard from the start of peoples kid finally finding a place they could fit in or overcame mental handicaps because of this game.  For the first few weeks after the game shut down, this forum was full of heartbreaking stories of people who would do ANYTHING to play the game again.

Then we find out it's actually been around this whole time, and even worse we get the excuse that "Well it was going to be made public soon anyway" well that is awfully convenient.  One could be forgiven for thinking that was a lie to save face, after all, what are the chances the private server was going to be made public just after it happened to be exposed? I mean come on, its been a secret for 6 years and just as it's exposed it comes out "Oh I was planning on releasing it in a few weeks" BS

No, unless proven wrong I believe this server would have never been released.  I think the intent of Leo and everyone involved was to keep it quiet and then slowly reverse engineer parts from it (Paragon Chat ETC) and slowly release chunks of the game.  Fine and dandy, and I appreciate he made Paragon Chat, but it certainly seems like a consolation prize.  This may sound mean, but currently from where I stand SCoRE is worse than NCSoft. At least NCSoft stopped everyone equally from playing it.  SCoRE just happily ignored those "I will never play CoH before I die again" comments
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MyriVerse on April 17, 2019, 09:14:30 PM
My data could be false, and I'd be the first to swallow it and apologize, but I have heard from multiple sources that unclaimed characters were occasionally being used, if not the most commonly.
I just don't understand why someone would use the characters when there's nothing to be gained from it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 17, 2019, 09:16:14 PM
My data could be false, and I'd be the first to swallow it and apologize, but I have heard from multiple sources that unclaimed characters were occasionally being used, if not the most commonly.

That said, I fell asleep leveling my peacebringer and revived them almidst waking back up, so they wouldn't have too bad a time with mine  ;)

And yeah, it's all just data, and yeah, I honestly don't care if someone else downloads Argent Girl after the data drops if it does and uses her... I just want to be able to, and someone made that choice without us involved, and I'm callin schenanigans.

Getting fired up over hearsay that could very well be false isn't productive or healthy. There's a ton of information we don't have and just taking the words of people vying for 15 minutes of internet fame doesn't seem like a smart idea.

If someone has a copy of our characters... so what? It's irrelevant. Nothing changes for us. We still have all our good memories of playing those characters, telling stories about them, and keeping them in our hearts. A bunch of ones and zeroes aren't important.

If we finally get to play again and I have remake all my characters, that's ok. Someone having a copy of my character somewhere isn't important and you sound like you're getting far too upset over something that isn't important and allowing people to manipulate you with sensational drivel.

Take whatever you hear on either side with a grain of salt. I am. Because I know what its like to get caught up in BS like this and letting "he said, she said" nonsense get me all bent out of shape. I am not willing to let anyone do that to me again and you shouldn't either.

The only thing we know for sure is we don't have all the facts and half of what we do know isn't exactly substantiated. Letting people rile you up with what could be outright lies, is doing nothing but letting someone else have a laugh at your expense and allowing them to use you as a weapon against someone they have a grudge against. So chill out. Take a breath. And THINK LOGICALLY, not emotionally. I know that isn't easy given the circumstances but its what needs to be done.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 09:19:32 PM
Picture this.   Sicily, 194-


No, no, just consider this hypothetical:


Rewind to 3 days ago,  before all this hit.   Leandro makes an announcement that SCoRE has a very special treat for the 15th anniversary so you better have your issue 24 beta clients ready.


Fast forward,  2 weeks, the first announcement is made within paragon chat that you can direct your i24 client to this address and connect.  Later that night, server code gets torrented/box'd and the first server's ip address is announced to the world.


Days later people ask about the story.   "Yeah, we've been working on this for 6 years nonstop.   We've been so excited, it killed us not to tell you all the first time we bootd up and successfully logged in. "




Now,  would any one be screaming body murder about not being in the server?  No.  It's perspective.   And no, it didn't go this way,  but we're 11 days from the 15 th anniversary.   If you're hot under the collar, you may want to consider taking a break.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 17, 2019, 09:21:43 PM
Hypothetically, what if it was laser beamed directly into our computers so we all had the code! That'd be amazing. Hypothetically.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 17, 2019, 09:25:48 PM
It's worth noting that in his video, People's Hero Mr. Destroyer Stroyer specifically called out how:
  • Hardly anyone was on the server at any given time; sounding pretty much like Paragon Chat on a non-event day.
  • When he hosted an event in Rikti War Zone, "RZW ran like crap" with more than a handful of people in the zone

That is a description of a server with a handful of active users that is still in need of further work; not a server with hundreds of active users and smooth as silk performance.

"3000 users", wherever that number came from, is a number spread over six years or more. If we take Mr. Destroyer Stroyer at his word, via his statements on his video, most of the people invited to the server either declined the invitations entirely or only came in for a short while before losing interest. He is not describing a thriving server full of supergroups and a vibrant community. He's describing the same sort of user base that uses Paragon Chat. Putting his "Liberator of /r/CityofHeroes" act aside, I suspect that what Mr. Destroyer Stroyer really hoped would happen is that the the server admins would be "forced" to open the server up to the public and Mr. Destroyer Stroyer would get the server-wide community in-game that he felt was missing and was therefore responsible for his feeling of it being non-fun to be a member of the server. (Yes, I'm aware he was banned. I don't think that changes his motivations, particularly, but only he really knows why he took the actions he took.)

However - we know nothing of the server. It might be running on someone's PC on a cable connection.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 09:26:05 PM
Picture this.   Sicily, 194-


No, no, just consider this hypothetical:


Rewind to 3 days ago,  before all this hit.   Leandro makes an announcement that SCoRE has a very special treat for the 15th anniversary so you better have your issue 24 beta clients ready.


Fast forward,  2 weeks, the first announcement is made within paragon chat that you can direct your i24 client to this address and connect.  Later that night, server code gets torrented/box'd and the first server's ip address is announced to the world.


Days later people ask about the story.   "Yeah, we've been working on this for 6 years nonstop.   We've been so excited, it killed us not to tell you all the first time we bootd up and successfully logged in. "




Now,  would any one be screaming body murder about not being in the server?  No.  It's perspective.   And no, it didn't go this way,  but we're 11 days from the 15 th anniversary.   If you're hot under the collar, you may want to consider taking a break.


Consider if aliens dropped by tomorrow and told us that this life has been but a test and that we all get to evolve into the next space faring race.

At this point conjecture on what could had happened is pointless. Only what is and what has happened.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 17, 2019, 09:27:40 PM
One could be forgiven for thinking that was a lie to save face, after all, what are the chances the private server was going to be made public just after it happened to be exposed? I mean come on, its been a secret for 6 years and just as it's exposed it comes out "Oh I was planning on releasing it in a few weeks" BS

Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.

As it stands, it doesn't change anything at this point, so it's moot. I only mention it to point out that there are multiple angles to view a story from and choosing the one that plays best with your personal feelings doesn't mean that you've chosen the best or most accurate angle.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 09:29:15 PM
Picture this.   Sicily, 194-


No, no, just consider this hypothetical:


Rewind to 3 days ago,  before all this hit.   Leandro makes an announcement that SCoRE has a very special treat for the 15th anniversary so you better have your issue 24 beta clients ready.


Fast forward,  2 weeks, the first announcement is made within paragon chat that you can direct your i24 client to this address and connect.  Later that night, server code gets torrented/box'd and the first server's ip address is announced to the world.


Days later people ask about the story.   "Yeah, we've been working on this for 6 years nonstop.   We've been so excited, it killed us not to tell you all the first time we bootd up and successfully logged in. "




Now,  would any one be screaming body murder about not being in the server?  No.  It's perspective.   And no, it didn't go this way,  but we're 11 days from the 15 th anniversary.   If you're hot under the collar, you may want to consider taking a break.

Yes, if that is true that would have been nice. And I am sure we all would be acting differently.  But it didn't happen that way, and we don't know if it ever would have.  All we know is it has been around for 6 years, it was a well-kept secret, and that it would have remained a secret for an undisclosed amount of time - possibly indefinitely.

Quote
Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.

As it stands, it doesn't change anything at this point, so it's moot. I only mention it to point out that there are multiple angles to view a story from and choosing the one that plays best with your personal feelings doesn't mean that you've chosen the best or most accurate angle.

That's true there are multiple angles to this story.  And just to clarify I don't hate Leo or think he is a bad person.  I just don't buy we were "this close" to an actual release of the code.  I think like most secrets it probably started out with the right intent, and slowly became something that was never going to see the light of day.  I would happily be proven wrong though, not that I think Leo owes me any kind of proof or anything, dude doesn't even know me.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 09:29:35 PM
However - we know nothing of the server. It might be running on someone's PC on a cable connection.

Actually not true, there is a lot of information out, specially in the reddit. This was also confirmed by Leandros on a reply to the article and TonyV on the article's comments.

The flood gates are open and a lot of information is coming out through different sites.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 09:30:12 PM

Now,  would any one be screaming body murder about not being in the server?  No.  It's perspective.   And no, it didn't go this way,  but we're 11 days from the 15 th anniversary.   If you're hot under the collar, you may want to consider taking a break.

It's video games and the internet, someone would definitely be screaming bloody murder about it but you're right it definitely would have been a very different response from the community as a whole. I imagine we'd see a lot more sentiment along the lines of the people who are genuinely grateful at the efforts and maybe even trying to sympathize with the task of trying to hold this under wraps all these years.

It all comes down to how things are presented and that's why narrative control is so important, when you can dictate the tone and the manner in which the news is presented, you can tailor it to hit the points you need to make, since the news leaked, even without the more sensational aspects of it, it was going to earn a negative response because ultimately people don't like being excluded.

In retrospect as others have said, it does more or less confirm the importance of being so selective with the invites, because even at the level they were being selective, they still got burned by invitees.

I'd like to say that the community at a larger scale could have been trusted with a bit more disclosure but, I've been around the block with alpha tests, beta tests, early access, all of that, and I know how impatient gamers can be, myself included. People would have rioted after 2 years of waiting, let alone 6.

We demand it gets released NOW NOW NOW, and then after we rush people to release something, we want to make heads roll over the fact that the product was rushed and runs and plays like crap.  :roll:
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 17, 2019, 09:31:51 PM
I only watched little bits of the destroyer video but wasn't this tool how they were loading the character data back?  I kindof got the impression that what he got was a full Codewalker file format download for every character on the system (I could be completely mistaken on that).

https://www.pcgamer.com/a-fully-functioning-city-of-heroes-private-server-has-somehow-been-kept-secret-for-six-years/ He was anonymously given the character data from the CoH servers.

The person running the Woofers effort was quoted on reddit as having been given that data as well, but losing it in a hard drive crash.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 09:32:18 PM
Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.

As it stands, it doesn't change anything at this point, so it's moot. I only mention it to point out that there are multiple angles to view a story from and choosing the one that plays best with your personal feelings doesn't mean that you've chosen the best or most accurate angle.

Or you can do a little research, there is a lot of information being posted online, including screenshots of emails and conversations that appear very damming. In any case, there is evidence of foul play, in that case is no longer a matter of opinion, but of fact.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 09:35:54 PM
https://www.pcgamer.com/a-fully-functioning-city-of-heroes-private-server-has-somehow-been-kept-secret-for-six-years/ He was anonymously given the character data from the CoH servers.

The person running the Woofers effort was quoted on reddit as having been given that data as well, but losing it in a hard drive crash.

Aye I saw it, supposedly he responded to a request for people to join the team and was asked about his character, after which he was provided screenshots of his character, when he posted it on the reddit while the previous mods who were accused of being part of Leandro's circle were mods, the post was deleted and afterwards the contact at Woofers claimed to no longer have access to the data.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 09:39:12 PM
Quote
I'd like to say that the community at a larger scale could have been trusted with a bit more disclosure but, I've been around the block with alpha tests, beta tests, early access, all of that, and I know how impatient gamers can be, myself included. People would have rioted after 2 years of waiting, let alone 6.

So in this regard I am rather impressed with everyone involved with the private server.  6 years is a long time to keep a secret successfully especially across so many people.  I am not mad at the players who kept this a secret at all, in fact, I am rather impressed how long it was kept a secret.  The ol saying "Only 2 people can keep a secret if one of them is dead" was put to the test here.  That was a lot of people keeping a secret.  As far as secrets go the more people who know it, the more likely it is to be revealed.  So bravo in that regard.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 09:39:21 PM
Thats not entirely true, the leak had a picture of the 2013 server specs. (thats right, 2013) The machine was less powerful than what they play minecraft on nowadays and for some reason, 5x the cost.

Maybe the cost is largely bandwidth based?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 09:40:34 PM
Maybe the cost is largely bandwidth based?

Absolutely not. Go look at renting any dedicated server to see that for yourself.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 09:48:14 PM
So in this regard I am rather impressed with everyone involved with the private server.  6 years is a long time to keep a secret successfully especially across so many people.  I am not mad at the players who kept this a secret at all, in fact, I am rather impressed how long it was kept a secret.  The ol saying "Only 2 people can keep a secret if one of them is dead" was put to the test here.  That was a lot of people keeping a secret.  As far as secrets go the more people who know it, the more likely it is to be revealed.  So bravo in that regard.

Thats because there were threats involved. Leandros kept charts and tabs of everyone who was in the server, who invited them, who they played with, who they invited. If you so much as leaked, not only would they ban you, but everyone in your circle, including whoever originally invited you and whoever you invited. He also had people spying in groups that checked if you were trustworthy or not, kind of like with the communist scare in the US

Meanwhile they ran the reddit and they ran here as well, any posts were removed and the person banned. There are random leaks in 4chan and, strangely enough, in the wildstar reddit, talking about the server existing.

And before everyone claims Im exaggerating, there are screenshots of Leandros posts and emails about this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 17, 2019, 09:48:21 PM
Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.

As it stands, it doesn't change anything at this point, so it's moot. I only mention it to point out that there are multiple angles to view a story from and choosing the one that plays best with your personal feelings doesn't mean that you've chosen the best or most accurate angle.

Destroyer Stroyer's original YouTube video was posted in November last year (in fact, it's the reason he was banned) but, and this is a big but, it was flagged by YouTube's algorithm and deleted as fast as it was put up (likely flagged by the score people in mass to squash the leak as fast as they could)

Similarly, the coh subreddit page had an auto-moderation bot that flagged and deleted any mention of private servers, including a post by destroyer stroyer and others who had been a part of the private server and tried to reveal it's existence.

So no, this isn't someone just /now/ leaking it's existence to ruin a public revealing. The existence of the score private server has been leaked and attempted to have been leaked several times over the years it's been fully operational and functioning.

What has specifically changed now? Articles and publications giving people like destroyer stroyer an irrefutable voice that can't be deleted, erased, or gaslighted away. Specifically, these articles and the mounting pressure forced every coh subreddit mod to leave and hide, letting a new group take over, delete the auto-ban bot, and allowing the discussion of private servers to continue for the first time in years.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 17, 2019, 09:50:37 PM
Absolutely not. Go look at renting any dedicated server to see that for yourself.

What sort of game can you rent a dedi for that would be comperable to a persistent online MMO world equivalent to the size of CoX?

Typically dedi server pricing is tiered based on the amount of slots it fits with the service being significantly more expensive with more slots, wouldn't an MMO server be at the top of that curve?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 17, 2019, 09:53:11 PM
Or you can do a little research, there is a lot of information being posted online, including screenshots of emails and conversations that appear very damming. In any case, there is evidence of foul play, in that case is no longer a matter of opinion, but of fact.

No "evidence" we've seen so far are "facts" yet. Screenshots can be fabricated, Emails altered. And even stuff that isn't altered or fabricated needs context. Context we don't have yet.
No matter what you think you've seen with "a little research", we don't have the actual facts yet... as if it would be so easy for anyone with google to know everything that's been hidden from us for 6 years or why. The hubris is astounding.

I won't claim I know the truth until I actually do. I will not be manipulated by anyone's narrative. You shouldn't let anyone manipulate you either.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 09:55:06 PM
Yes, if that is true that would have been nice. And I am sure we all would be acting differently.  But it didn't happen that way, and we don't know if it ever would have.  All we know is it has been around for 6 years,
Yes.




it was a well-kept secret,
Yes.




and that it would have remained a secret for an undisclosed amount of time - possibly indefinitely.
No,  we don't know that.


And many people have jumped to the negative conclusion just because,  instead of a positive conclusion when we mostly all knew that server project had been in the works.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 09:57:38 PM
Yes.



Yes.



No,  we don't know that.


And many people have jumped to the negative conclusion just because,  instead of a positive conclusion when we mostly all knew that server project had been in the works.

6 years my dude, its hard to think otherwise.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 17, 2019, 09:59:49 PM
So in this regard I am rather impressed with everyone involved with the private server.  6 years is a long time to keep a secret successfully especially across so many people.  I am not mad at the players who kept this a secret at all, in fact, I am rather impressed how long it was kept a secret.  The ol saying "Only 2 people can keep a secret if one of them is dead" was put to the test here.  That was a lot of people keeping a secret.  As far as secrets go the more people who know it, the more likely it is to be revealed.  So bravo in that regard.
You've clearly never worked with government secrets. I have. It's pretty easy to keep secrets when the reasons for keeping them are clear to all involved and the consequences of revealing them are dire enough. This group was small enough, vetted enough, and controlled enough to keep the secret damped down quite handily. (Scrubbing and plugging leaks is part of the process.)

The biggest issue here is that I think the reasons for keeping the secret were overblown; we'll see in the next few months whether NCSoft actually takes legal action.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 10:00:07 PM
What sort of game can you rent a dedi for that would be comperable to a persistent online MMO world equivalent to the size of CoX?

Typically dedi server pricing is tiered based on the amount of slots it fits with the service being significantly more expensive with more slots, wouldn't an MMO server be at the top of that curve?

What they're using isn't something you rent from a company that is preset with slots. They aren't buying a CoD server, they're running their own stuff so they rented server space not a pre-set.For example, a 50 slot minecraft server is 100's of dollars, for 30 bucks you could host your own on a sever box and have 500 slots. The screenshot we have to go off of shows the rental being

10000MHz CPU
20480 MB
200GB Disk
80gb SSD
200GB xfer rate

as a singular box(and it was 1 server, though this again was 2013). This is really inexpensive, My minecraft server is heavier than that. If they upgraded past that, Unsure but the initial server setup is extremely low. It's not magic, nor is it that complicated. What their current needs to run a CoH server is, is not known to anyone but them. However going off on other old spaghetti MMOs, see guildwars/lineage/everqust so on so forth, It's probably not much different. I'm not going to take it at face value that it is because they're not offering any proof to back up the claim.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 17, 2019, 10:03:32 PM
However - we know nothing of the server. It might be running on someone's PC on a cable connection.

Well we know they were paying about 1000 / month on a Canadian server -- based on forum screenshots on Facebook
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 10:04:13 PM
Do you really, honestly, believe it ever would have gone that way?


Considering how these people have been helpful in so many ways to support the community above and beyond any obligation,  yes.
Leandro was seeding animations for demorecords.
Codewalker pushed out iCon
P-chat ewas pushed out.


Additional technical information had been shared as situations/inquiries arose.


So, yes,  given a choice of whether or not to give then the benefit of the doubt,  they have credibility because they have delivered and the conspiracy theories just don't hold water.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 10:05:42 PM
Which is a complete lie. They don't cost that much, you can look for yourself extremely easily.


They dont cost that much NOW, the screen was from several years ago.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 10:07:12 PM

They dont cost that much NOW, the screen was from several years ago.


That server wouldn't cost that much then. It wouldn't be as cheap as now but still not that much my man. Source; Purchased and hosted things on servers more powerful. If they paid that much, they got scammed.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 10:11:11 PM

Considering how these people have been helpful in so many ways to support the community above and beyond any obligation,  yes.
Leandro was seeding animations for demorecords.
Codewalker pushed out iCon
P-chat ewas pushed out.


Additional technical information had been shared as situations/inquiries arose.


So, yes,  given a choice of whether or not to give then the benefit of the doubt,  they have credibility because they have delivered and the conspiracy theories just don't hold water.

So because they gave us a picture of the game, while they played the real thing we should trust them?????
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 10:12:19 PM
So because they gave us a picture of the game, while they played the real thing we should trust them?????

We were starving, so they gave us a few breadcrumbs while they ate steak everyday, telling us that steak was impossible.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on April 17, 2019, 10:12:23 PM
Yes... you could also turn the question around. What are the chances that someone who was banned from the server back in November would decide to release a bunch of youtube videos about it in mid-April, right before the devs on the server were discussing a possible public reveal of it?

Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe Mr. Destroyer Stroyer had some reasons for choosing this as his time to blow the cover of the server operators. I don't know the answer. If he says it was a coincidence, and I'm forced to choose to believe that one statement is a lie and the other is not, Leandro has "cred" here that Mr. Destroyer Stroyer does not have.



In the original video someone asked why he did this, and his response was "I was going to get banned away." To me this feels more of a "I will show them a what for." I have no doubt that if wasn't going to get banned all we would have are accounts that cannot be confirmed or denied.

Theni in his next video he tried to throw shade on other people. Such Victoria. I believe her when she said she didnt know and wasn't involved same with Tony. I interacted with these sometimes and they seemed sincere. And that is good enough for me.

Like I have said before, it just as though one person wanted to light a fire ad laugh at those that have tried to move on. I dont know Leo or his motivations, and I have posted what I think on several different places.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 10:13:02 PM
No,  we don't know that.
And many people have jumped to the negative conclusion just because,  instead of a positive conclusion when we mostly all knew that server project had been in the works.

You are right, we don't know that.  Because we didn't know anything until it was leaked.  I feel it's safe to assume that business would have continued as usual, for as long as possible.  And business, as usual, was keeping it under wraps with extreme prejudice (According to some of the rumors)

I don't need to know Leo to know people.  They had no reason to reveal it, no pressure to reveal it, and certainly no benefit to revealing it.  So why would they?  Some people say the plan was to wait long enough until NCSoft might not care anymore.  I would wager that is at least 10 years from shut down point.  In 3 years maybe we would have seen something.  But at that point, its been 10 years.  Leo and the admins of this server have been playing with their friends the entire time.  The people they invited are also playing with the majority of their friends.  Again, what benefit do more players and more risk add?  They already had what they wanted and, while I don't believe they are inherently selfish or bad people, they were comfortable in the position they were in.  In my experience, most people don't willingly slam full force into the barriers of their comfort zone.  Especially when the consequences of revealing it are potentially some kind of legal repercussions.

In much shorter words, I don't expect people to stop doing what they are already doing and have been doing for years.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 10:13:34 PM
6 years my dude, its hard to think otherwise.
SEGS .1.5 was checked into sourceforge on 11/11/2009, 9.5 years ago, and look where it is now dude.


Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 10:15:58 PM
You've clearly never worked with government secrets. I have. It's pretty easy to keep secrets when the reasons for keeping them are clear to all involved and the consequences of revealing them are dire enough. This group was small enough, vetted enough, and controlled enough to keep the secret damped down quite handily. (Scrubbing and plugging leaks is part of the process.)

The biggest issue here is that I think the reasons for keeping the secret were overblown; we'll see in the next few months whether NCSoft actually takes legal action.

Well, that's true I haven't worked with government secrets.  But there are also government leaks constantly - and fear of imprisonment is a little more powerful then the fear of being banned I would say.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 10:18:12 PM
SEGS .1.5 was checked into sourceforge on 11/11/2009, 9.5 years ago, and look where it is now dude.

abandoned and restarted a lot of times, and only recently picked back up has been being worked on heavily now, pushing twords a bare bones issue 0? (Not to down their effort, SEGS is love)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Lazarillo on April 17, 2019, 10:19:46 PM
We were starving, so they gave us a few breadcrumbs while they ate steak everyday, telling us that steak was impossible.
It wasn't impossible, though, guys, they were totally going to give us a full course meal in just a week's time!  But then someone had to go and tell us they were in the kitchen and now the food that they already prepared and were about to send out, no, really, they were, is something they can't share, just like they couldn't share it before.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 17, 2019, 10:20:42 PM
I really do think something good is going to come of all of this.

I don't want to jinx anything, but I'm feeling shockingly optimistic? Which is a pretty new sensation for me. I'm, like... excited? Everyone is so busy fighting, and I'm over here just doing a happy dance that the game is still alive somewhere, somehow.

*knocks on wood*
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 10:24:11 PM
It could easily be proven that this eventual public event was going to take place, surely if it was that soon there would be plenty of proof to back it up? Without revealing too much or exposing people, they could easily show screenshots of discussions of it or anything right? A claim was made, it was called fake and they have the easiest way to prove it wasn't.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 10:24:27 PM
It wasn't impossible, though, guys, they were totally going to give us a full course meal in just a week's time!  But then someone had to go and tell us they were in the kitchen and now the food that they already prepared and were about to send out, no, really, they were, is something they can't share, just like they couldn't share it before.

Sure, they havent shared anything for 6 years, but they super promise that its because they were about to share it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 17, 2019, 10:24:52 PM
I really do think something good is going to come of all of this.

I don't want to jinx anything, but I'm feeling shockingly optimistic? Which is a pretty new sensation for me. I'm, like... excited? Everyone is so busy fighting, and I'm over here just doing a happy dance that the game is still alive somewhere, somehow.

*knocks on wood*

Now that it's out there, I have hope that it's just a matter of time.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 17, 2019, 10:25:40 PM
We were starving, so they gave us a few breadcrumbs while they ate steak everyday, telling us that steak was impossible.

Okay, have all of you who keep bringing that thread up actually read it, or are you just having kneejerk reactions to the title? Because what he said is this:

Quote
*lots of techspeak I'm not going to quote and you can go find for yourself*

So, what you all want is not a “server emulator”. You want a compatible server. You don’t want something that is based off Paragon Studios’ code, with all the legal headaches it involves; you want original code that works better than what they had. Our devs have said many times how much the original code was a mess, how maintaining it was a nightmare, how they wish they had more resources to rewrite the damn thing. We do not want to emulate that! We want to make something that gives us the same play experience, but is smoother, better and faster.

And that’s why City of Heroes is not getting a server emulator. Stop asking for one.

However, do keep cheering for a compatible server and know that we will have one eventually.

That doesn't sound like "nope, never gonna happen, sorry lol gottem". Could SCoRE have turned to evil over time? I suppose it's possible, though I don't really believe it myself. But to suggest it began with evil intent as far back as a month after the closing is disingenuous.

The biggest issue here is that I think the reasons for keeping the secret were overblown; we'll see in the next few months whether NCSoft actually takes legal action.

I agree that it may well prove that the secrecy was unnecessary, but NCSoft has a bad record in this area, at best, and I somehow doubt they're very happy that someone else has account data. Had you been in the room, would you not have taken all possible measures to ensure that NCSoft never laid a hand on this data?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 17, 2019, 10:25:48 PM
Folks a flowchart was kept on who invited who and a leak would get you and all those in your cells - banned.

This was not an Alpha testing environment - it was a secret server. It has even been modified to have new power sets. You say testing for stability - for 6 years? I am not holding them up as heroes - just humans. Instead of coming to the community - they cowered in fear. They lived for 6 years in fear - the brave dies but once and the coward every day. I probaby let too much info out when I was trying and these folks let too little out.

I can't help but wonder - did the game purchase die because someone gave them the code? The way it completely went silent - I have to wonder did these folks get the software and say - well why buy the cow we can get the milk for free?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 10:26:14 PM
It could easily be proven that this eventual public event was going to take place, surely if it was that soon there would be plenty of proof to back it up? Without revealing too much or exposing people, they could easily show screenshots of discussions of it or anything right? A claim was made, it was called fake and they have the easiest way to prove it wasn't.

Yes they could, it would be the easiest thing in the world, but first everyone denied it, and then evidence came out, then they claimed that there was a plan to release all along, granted by now no one believe then, but they also dont post any evidence on that.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on April 17, 2019, 10:26:20 PM
I really do think something good is going to come of all of this.

I don't want to jinx anything, but I'm feeling shockingly optimistic? Which is a pretty new sensation for me. I'm, like... excited? Everyone is so busy fighting, and I'm over here just doing a happy dance that the game is still alive somewhere, somehow.

*knocks on wood*

I hope so too :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 10:28:51 PM
Okay, have all of you who keep bringing that thread up actually read it, or are you just having kneejerk reactions to the title? Because what he said is this:

That doesn't sound like "nope, never gonna happen, sorry lol gottem". Could SCoRE have turned to evil over time? I suppose it's possible, though I don't really believe it myself. But to suggest it began with evil intent as far back as a month after the closing is disingenuous.

I agree that it may well prove that the secrecy was unnecessary, but NCSoft has a bad record in this area, at best, and I somehow doubt they're very happy that someone else has account data. Had you been in the room, would you not have taken all possible measures to ensure that NCSoft never laid a hand on this data?

Yes that and many like it, as well as reactions on the reddit, its been a long history.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 10:30:26 PM
Okay, have all of you who keep bringing that thread up actually read it, or are you just having kneejerk reactions to the title? Because what he said is this:

That doesn't sound like "nope, never gonna happen, sorry lol gottem". Could SCoRE have turned to evil over time? I suppose it's possible, though I don't really believe it myself. But to suggest it began with evil intent as far back as a month after the closing is disingenuous.

I agree that it may well prove that the secrecy was unnecessary, but NCSoft has a bad record in this area, at best, and I somehow doubt they're very happy that someone else has account data. Had you been in the room, would you not have taken all possible measures to ensure that NCSoft never laid a hand on this data?

They do not have a bad record in this area. Search for any lineage 2, wildstar (in dev openly i might add) Guild wars 1/2, or even Aion private servers. Most have been up for a long time and have not received a C&D. Before you qoute Tabula Rasa at me, know that they were in a very bitter very high stakes lawsuit with Richard over Tabula Rasa. Of course they smited it down. I'm not telling you it won't happen. I'm telling you the "Record" isn't there.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ChaosMatrix on April 17, 2019, 10:30:31 PM
Folks a flowchart was kept on who invited who and a leak would get you and all those in your cells - banned.

This was not an Alpha testing environment - it was a secret server. It has even been modified to have new power sets. You say testing for stability - for 6 years? I am not holding them up as heroes - just humans. Instead of coming to the community - they cowered in fear. They lived for 6 years in fear - the brave dies but once and the coward every day. I probaby let too much info out when I was trying and these folks let too little out.

I can't help but wonder - did the game purchase die because someone gave them the code? The way it completely went silent - I have to wonder did these folks get the software and say - well why buy the cow we can get the milk for free?

It is my understanding that Leandros received everything he needed to get the server working up to the point it was before it closed. If anything any bug fixes and added content was just over what already existed in the game prior to its demise. I find it hard to believe that it took them 6 years to have it "in working order" for the public.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TheBeatnik on April 17, 2019, 10:34:38 PM
This may be a worthless post, as there is really nothing of substance that I can add to the conversation. I'm as stunned as everyone by the recent news, and, probably like everyone else,
am still processing my feelings as I race to catch up on the story and the conversation.

What I do feel, right now, is sadness.
It hit me as I reread my previous activity on this forum, just 22 posts, all within a year or so of shutdown.
I was *so* hopeful back then. Even now, rereading the plans we made, I get a tangible sense that we felt
the possibility of doing something amazing, something ridiculously against all odds.

And I think that's what hurts now. Seven years ago, we were, all of us, heroes together.
And today, seven years seems an eternity away.

What pushes me past the sadness is the faith, foolish or not, that the community of CoH players is not yet over. We may be scattered,
in the wilderness, divided, but better days are ahead. Ship of Heroes has announced an end of the year beta, City of Titans continues to progress,
and Paragon Chat continues to be available when I absolutely have to go home.
Until then, I think I'll go back to lurking, and to appreciating a community that is, quite a lot of the time, far more knowledgeable and
eloquent than I could ever hope to be.

Regards,
The Beatnik
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 10:36:45 PM
I really do think something good is going to come of all of this.

I don't want to jinx anything, but I'm feeling shockingly optimistic? Which is a pretty new sensation for me. I'm, like... excited? Everyone is so busy fighting, and I'm over here just doing a happy dance that the game is still alive somewhere, somehow.

*knocks on wood*

Well I am happy that you are happy :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 17, 2019, 10:39:09 PM
I agree that it may well prove that the secrecy was unnecessary, but NCSoft has a bad record in this area, at best, and I somehow doubt they're very happy that someone else has account data. Had you been in the room, would you not have taken all possible measures to ensure that NCSoft never laid a hand on this data?
Character data isn't account data. And NCSoft already has its hands on account data, so your question doesn't even make sense.

NCSoft are petty bastards, but your assessment of their litigiousness requires evidence. Tabula Rasa does not a rule make.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 17, 2019, 10:47:05 PM
I can't help but wonder - did the game purchase die because someone gave them the code?

No. The two teams working on these two efforts were completely separate. As far as I know, there were no members in common between the two, except possibly short, technical advisory conversations.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 10:51:53 PM
I would have to imagine even if Downix knew about the Private Server he probably knew how bad it would look for City of Titans and the purchase attempt if he was found anywhere near it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 17, 2019, 10:53:51 PM
No. The two teams working on these two efforts were completely separate. As far as I know, there were no members in common between the two, except possibly short, technical advisory conversations.

So, then the logical question follows - did the SCoRE team approach the potential buyers and say - hey we got the code - just try and buy the rights - never mind the software? You see once they had purchased the rights to the game - if they got a running copy of it - how they did it would be moot. This is just so shady at this point with people saying - nope I never knew - then saying - well I did know but didn't play. Others saying well I played but felt bad and quit and so on trying to deflect.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 17, 2019, 10:58:17 PM
I would have to imagine even if Downix knew about the Private Server he probably knew how bad it would look for City of Titans and the purchase attempt if he was found anywhere near it.

Well Downix did bail on it and distance himself from it. He was working on Titan and only worked the first part to introduce people to the NCSoft folks. On the second purchase attempt.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ABagOfCandy on April 17, 2019, 10:58:53 PM
I've been lurking on this forum for years hoping the game would come back and I find out this morning it was around all along!? Not gonna lie, I'm bummed more that my lack of activity on forums about this could have been the main reason I haven't been able to play it. Not saying I'm thrilled that it was super exclusive, but I get it. Fingers crossed something more than a total shutdown comes out of this. I want nothing more than to play that freakin game again XD I haven't been able to find a game I WANT to play recently and my hopes are crushed by games I was excited for.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Crimsanotic on April 17, 2019, 11:00:24 PM
That doesn't sound like "nope, never gonna happen, sorry lol gottem". Could SCoRE have turned to evil over time? I suppose it's possible, though I don't really believe it myself. But to suggest it began with evil intent as far back as a month after the closing is disingenuous.

You're also taking the word of people who lied to you as if it were truth.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 11:02:05 PM
Well Downix did bail on it and distance himself from it. He was working on Titan and only worked the first part to introduce people to the NCSoft folks. On the second purchase attempt.

Oh right.  Good point, the details have become a little hazy with time and I forgot he passed it off entirely to the "purchase team" and they are (as far as I know) completely anonymous to most of us.

Quote
I've been lurking on this forum for years hoping the game would come back and I find out this morning it was around all along!? Not gonna lie, I'm bummed more that my lack of activity on forums about this could have been the main reason I haven't been able to play it. Not saying I'm thrilled that it was super exclusive, but I get it. Fingers crossed something more than a total shutdown comes out of this. I want nothing more than to play that freakin game again XD I haven't been able to find a game I WANT to play recently and my hopes are crushed by games I was excited for.
 

I don't think Titan forums really were the secret breeding ground for this server.  I was pretty active here in the first few years after the shutdown and as the activity of the forum died down so did my visits.  I obviously didn't know any of the right people involved but I don't think they met through these forums(maybe one or two).  I would wager the people who visit this forum and also played, were already friends with someone in the "know" from pretty early on.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 17, 2019, 11:06:52 PM
Character data isn't account data. And NCSoft already has its hands on account data, so your question doesn't even make sense.

NCSoft are petty bastards, but your assessment of their litigiousness requires evidence. Tabula Rasa does not a rule make.


https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/173882/general-ncsoft-tackles-illegal-servers (https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/173882/general-ncsoft-tackles-illegal-servers)

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/11/8258/ (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/11/8258/)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 11:09:32 PM
Why does my post explaining to Tony V why this block of text

Quote
An account/authentication server
Multiple chat server executables
A market server
A Paragon Store (microtransaction) server
A crapton of mapservers
Multiple DB servers

Is just tech fluff and not complicated or expensive keep disappearing? It's not insulting or attacking anyone. I'll simplify in hopes its not removed.

The only real costing item in that list is Mapservers. The rest is very basic and simple stuff, The idea that each one is an individual server is incorrect and misleading. Account server for example. is a thing that when you click login, it's a web server that takes that request that you've sent and goes is this person legit. It's like logging into a forum thats all an account server is. Even mapserver isn't that complicated to operate. You have to remember, most of this was targeted at 2003/4 hardware. We're lightyears ahead in terms of equipment and costs. Fitting thousands of people in one spot is extra work certainly, but we're talking about individual private servers here, that would probably not feature 1000+ people at a time.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 11:10:34 PM

https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/173882/general-ncsoft-tackles-illegal-servers (https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/173882/general-ncsoft-tackles-illegal-servers)

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/11/8258/ (https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2006/11/8258/)


Did you seriously just cite 2006/2008?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 17, 2019, 11:12:13 PM
Did you seriously just cite 2006/2008?
They also cited shutting down private servers of currently-running, legally available products.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ABagOfCandy on April 17, 2019, 11:13:18 PM
Quote
I don't think Titan forums really were the secret breeding ground for this server.  I was pretty active here in the first few years after the shutdown and as the activity of the forum died down so did my visits.  I obviously didn't know any of the right people involved but I don't think they met through these forums(maybe one or two).  I would wager the people who visit this forum and also played, were already friends with someone in the "know" from pretty early on.

Fair point, it was just such a shock my mind sorta just went straight to the "what if I..." mindset. So since the cat is out of the bag, I'm gonna finally be active for any sort of push that might come out of this :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 17, 2019, 11:13:29 PM
They also cited shutting down private servers of currently-running, legally available products.

Which again, lineage 2 (Still operational) Private servers that have openly ran without closure attempts for 3-4 years.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 11:19:23 PM
Could SCoRE have turned to evil over time? I suppose it's possible, though I don't really believe it myself. But to suggest it began with evil intent as far back as a month after the closing is disingenuous.

I think to say SCoRE is even evil now is totally unfair.  I am sure they would have released some kind of public version at some point.  Were they going to do it all at once or in small chunks?  IE: Paragon Chat and the small updates to it.  I also believe they would have, eventually, had the full game released in a way (as they claim) is not just an emulator server.  The part I find disingenuous is the "Oh it was just around the corner"

I believe ideally (for those involved)  this server would have never been let out.  Not because they didn't want people to be able to play, but because they didn't want them to know they have in fact been playing for several years.  It would have been far easier to (eventually) release something to us and say "Oh now we can all play on it" without ever revealing that they had a secret server for years.

I also believe what started out as Alpha-style testing for their work on the reverse engineering side of things, where they brought in a few friends at a time, slowly shifted to a full-blown, official secret server.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 17, 2019, 11:23:44 PM
I don't believe it would have ever been released a quote from the Reddit Mole:

The policy was in place from at least 2013. Please be careful about assigning malice to these policies. We are talking about people willing to risk their personal freedom to keep the world alive and maintaining strict secrecy with harsh consequences was just how it had to be done in their minds. I hope these answers satisfy for now.

They were justifying themselves for 6 years that it was the only way to keep "their" home - not OUR home.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 17, 2019, 11:44:09 PM
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

There never was an unauthorized leak by an NCSOFT employee.  It was a sanctioned act with the intent to manipulate the SCORE team into rebuilding the game into something that could be legitimately released back onto the market.    No one inside SCORE need know that they were played.   No one need know if, or how many, of their fellow players were actually working for NCSOFT.

It would be a fantastic outcome.

Remember, you heard about it here first.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 17, 2019, 11:49:56 PM
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

There never was an unauthorized leak by an NCSOFT employee.  It was a sanctioned act with the intent to manipulate the SCORE team into rebuilding the game into something that could be legitimately released back onto the market.    No one inside SCORE need know that they were played.   No one need know if, or how many, of their fellow players were actually working for NCSOFT.

It would be a fantastic outcome.

Remember, you heard about it here first.

I have already reposted it all over the social media claiming it as inarguable fact.  Gotta give it some traction ;)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 17, 2019, 11:52:29 PM
I also believe what started out as Alpha-style testing for their work on the reverse engineering side of things, where they brought in a few friends at a time, slowly shifted to a full-blown, official secret server.
According to leaks, the server is a fully functional server, not a testing environment.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ABagOfCandy on April 18, 2019, 12:14:29 AM
Quote
Here's a conspiracy theory for you.

There never was an unauthorized leak by an NCSOFT employee.  It was a sanctioned act with the intent to manipulate the SCORE team into rebuilding the game into something that could be legitimately released back onto the market.    No one inside SCORE need know that they were played.   No one need know if, or how many, of their fellow players were actually working for NCSOFT.

It would be a fantastic outcome.

Remember, you heard about it here first.

This theory has hope, speculation, and a dash of possibility. MY FAVORITE KIND OF CONSPIRACY! I'll admit, that actually made me feel better.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 12:16:43 AM
According to leaks, the server is a fully functional server, not a testing environment.

I'm involved in closed alpha tests right now that could be released to public market in their current state by industry standards, the server functioning doesn't really mean they're not still working on it, improving it or optimizing it for larger population. I've also seen plenty of game servers that work fine with a certain number of players and take a total nose dive the moment you go above a certain line, there's a lot of things that could be holding it in testing status even if leakers didn't see them outright.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 12:20:42 AM
I'm involved in closed alpha tests right now that could be released to public market in their current state by industry standards, the server functioning doesn't really mean they're not still working on it, improving it or optimizing it for larger population. I've also seen plenty of game servers that work fine with a certain number of players and take a total nose dive the moment you go above a certain line, there's a lot of things that could be holding it in testing status even if leakers didn't see them outright.

You have no proof of anything you've said. This is someone who was on the server saying it isn't in dev. It's time for proof, plenty of ways to do so without risking anything. Show dev discussion with forum timestamp. Show video of working on code. Show anything that will prove anything. Otherwise it just looks like were being lied to.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 12:27:43 AM
You have no proof of anything you've said. This is someone who was on the server saying it isn't in dev. It's time for proof, plenty of ways to do so without risking anything. Show dev discussion with forum timestamp. Show video of working on code. Show anything that will prove anything. Otherwise it just looks like were being lied to.

Please unclamp your jaws from my head, thank you.

I'm not saying anything definitive, I don't require "proof", I'm sure anyone in here who has been playing MMO's as far back as CoH's launch has been in plenty of alpha and beta tests over the years and can recall games that were even more fun during beta. Off the top of my head I can think of Age of Conan and the original Planetside, they ran, they functioned, the devs were still working on them. It's just food for thought, I'm not trying to disprove anything anyone said, I'm not disputing a claim, I'm just offering the point that a server running well does not always mean development has ended, or it's at a state that a developer is happy with.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 12:33:19 AM
Please unclamp your jaws from my head, thank you.

I'm not saying anything definitive, I don't require "proof", I'm sure anyone in here who has been playing MMO's as far back as CoH's launch has been in plenty of alpha and beta tests over the years and can recall games that were even more fun during beta. Off the top of my head I can think of Age of Conan and the original Planetside, they ran, they functioned, the devs were still working on them. It's just food for thought, I'm not trying to disprove anything anyone said, I'm not disputing a claim, I'm just offering the point that a server running well does not always mean development has ended, or it's at a state that a developer is happy with.

I'm not clamping anything, I'm telling you that the people have stated they are not developing it any further and have asked for some proof to prove they are so we can know who we can trust.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: primeknight on April 18, 2019, 12:35:57 AM
I don't believe it would have ever been released a quote from the Reddit Mole:

The policy was in place from at least 2013. Please be careful about assigning malice to these policies. We are talking about people willing to risk their personal freedom to keep the world alive and maintaining strict secrecy with harsh consequences was just how it had to be done in their minds. I hope these answers satisfy for now.

They were justifying themselves for 6 years that it was the only way to keep "their" home - not OUR home.

Ironwolf, you're got a lot of clout and grit.

Let's stay positive. A playable version of CoH still exists.  Just let that sink in. 

This is to anyone that'll listen:
Let go of your anger, or use is for some good.  Step back and take some breaths, do some yoga or punch something.  Cry your eyes out.  Yell at the sky.  Do what you need to do.  Take a beat.

Now,
What can be done so everyone can play and enjoy the game?  Let's solve that problem. Who can help Leo (or whomever has the code).  Remember, there was a source behind this: Leo got it from somewhere. 

As a community we need to back the people that need help.  All this anger let's direct it someplace positive.  Let's get the game going again.  Leo has that seed and has been care-taking it.  That seed has grown a little under his care.  For lack of better words, it's alive and there's hope.  Now it's time to show him that it's safe to release what's grown and recreate the forest that was once City of Heroes and in a way that no company can every take that away again.   

If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft. 
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 12:37:22 AM
Ironwolf, you're got a lot of clout and grit.

Let's stay positive. A playable version of CoH still exists.  Just let that sink in. 

This is to anyone that'll listen:
Let go of your anger, or use is for some good.  Step back and take some breaths, do some yoga or punch something.  Cry your eyes out.  Yell at the sky.  Do what you need to do.  Take a beat.

Now,
What can be done so everyone can play and enjoy the game?  Let's solve that problem. Who can help Leo (or whomever has the code).  Remember, there was a source behind this: Leo got it from somewhere. 

As a community we need to back the people that need help.  All this anger let's direct it someplace positive.  Let's get the game going again.  Leo has that seed and has been care-taking it.  That seed has grown a little under his care.  For lack of better words, it's alive and there's hope.  Now it's time to show him that it's safe to release what's grown and recreate the forest that was once City of Heroes and in a way that no company can every take that away again.   

If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft.

NCsoft isn't the current problem. The problem is this apparently has been around for years. We've been mislead and now we're told its unlikely we'll ever see the game again because one person decided so.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 12:44:27 AM
Ironwolf, you're got a lot of clout and grit.

Let's stay positive. A playable version of CoH still exists.  Just let that sink in. 

This is to anyone that'll listen:
Let go of your anger, or use is for some good.  Step back and take some breaths, do some yoga or punch something.  Cry your eyes out.  Yell at the sky.  Do what you need to do.  Take a beat.

Now,
What can be done so everyone can play and enjoy the game?  Let's solve that problem. Who can help Leo (or whomever has the code).  Remember, there was a source behind this: Leo got it from somewhere. 

As a community we need to back the people that need help.  All this anger let's direct it someplace positive.  Let's get the game going again.  Leo has that seed and has been care-taking it.  That seed has grown a little under his care.  For lack of better words, it's alive and there's hope.  Now it's time to show him that it's safe to release what's grown and recreate the forest that was once City of Heroes and in a way that no company can every take that away again.   

If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft.

I think people have a little bit of a right to be hurt and untrustworthy of the intent of the secret server at this point.  The fact a playable version of the game has existed for 6 years but in total secret is a little disheartening.  Most of us came here just to get a little memory of it while there were people who have been playing the actual game for years and years now.  The code is already in the hands of the people who can help us.  The problem is we don't know if they are actually doing anything to help us anymore.  We know they are doing plenty to help the server, and maintain its secrecy and they are just asking to us to trust it was for the good of the community after they were just caught lying about its existence for 6 years.

NCSoft took the game away from everyone, we all accepted that and got angry at them.  And now we are being told the game is actually still around, in a fully playable state, and has been for years but is being kept secret for the majority of the community that said they would do anything to play the game again.  NCSoft didn't rebuild the server and keep it a secret.  I already distrusted NCSoft, now I am not sure if I should distrust SCoRE or not.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 18, 2019, 12:45:33 AM
Why does my post explaining to Tony V why this block of text

I don't know, I don't memorize all of the posts I delete. Probably because of other stuff in it?

Is just tech fluff and not complicated or expensive keep disappearing? It's not insulting or attacking anyone. I'll simplify in hopes its not removed.

The only real costing item in that list is Mapservers. The rest is very basic and simple stuff, The idea that each one is an individual server is incorrect and misleading.

By "server," I mean it in the sense of client-server computing. A "server" in this sense is a distinct, running process that responds to client requests. I never intended it to mean a physical box. Although make no mistake: There WERE a bunch of high-end enterprise-level boxes running all of this software.

Account server for example. is a thing that when you click login, it's a web server that takes that request that you've sent and goes is this person legit. It's like logging into a forum thats all an account server is.

That's not all an account server is in this case. There were also ties into what level of privileges you have, ties into the store to figure out what stuff you owned, a crapton of anti-intrusion measures, since this was the gateway into the game and back-end processes, yadda yadda yadda. And while I don't know the precise architecture, I suspect that the account server probably had things like clustering and/or load balancing baked into the executable so that during peak hours it could process large numbers of logins simultaneously without dying.

Point is, you're almost certainly grossly underestimating how much computing power a simple "account server" required, and you're completely ignoring how complicated the configuration and actual execution of it is.

Even mapserver isn't that complicated to operate. You have to remember, most of this was targeted at 2003/4 hardware. We're lightyears ahead in terms of equipment and costs. Fitting thousands of people in one spot is extra work certainly, but we're talking about individual private servers here, that would probably not feature 1000+ people at a time.

Yes, it was. This was the software that kept track of every entity in a zone or instance--players, NPCs, environmental entities (cars, trains, meteors, burning oil patches, etc.) Whether you have one person in an instance or 1000, all of that stuff still has to be tracked. I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that player characters are actually just a percent or two, if that much, of all the stuff that a map server tracks.

I'm not going to continue arguing about this, my impressions are from the people who actually worked on the stuff told me over the years. If you want further (or more definitive) clarification, go bug the former devs. (Or Leo, apparently he knows too...) Towards the end of the game's life, there were efforts to try to clean up the code and make it less complicated to configure and run, and as I recall they were beginning efforts to consolidate some of these server processes on fewer, BIG honkin' boxes, but they never really got much time to work on those kinds of efforts because they were constantly scrambling to get the next issue out the door.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 12:48:20 AM
I don't know, I don't memorize all of the posts I delete. Probably because of other stuff in it?

By "server," I mean it in the sense of client-server computing. A "server" in this sense is a distinct, running process that responds to client requests. I never intended it to mean a physical box. Although make no mistake: There WERE a bunch of high-end enterprise-level boxes running all of this software.

That's not all an account server is in this case. There were also ties into what level of privileges you have, ties into the store to figure out what stuff you owned, a crapton of anti-intrusion measures, since this was the gateway into the game and back-end processes, yadda yadda yadda. And while I don't know the precise architecture, I suspect that the account server probably had things like clustering and/or load balancing baked into the executable so that during peak hours it could process large numbers of logins simultaneously without dying.

Point is, you're almost certainly grossly underestimating how much computing power a simple "account server" required, and you're completely ignoring how complicated the configuration and actual execution of it is.

Yes, it was. This was the software that kept track of every entity in a zone or instance--players, NPCs, environmental entities (cars, trains, meteors, burning oil patches, etc.) Whether you have one person in an instance or 1000, all of that stuff still has to be tracked. I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that player characters are actually just a percent or two, if that much, of all the stuff that a map server tracks.

I'm not going to continue arguing about this, my impressions are from the people who actually worked on the stuff told me over the years. If you want further clarification, go bug Matt Miller or some of the other former devs. Towards the end of the game's life, there were efforts to try to clean up the code and make it less complicated to configure and run, and as I recall they were beginning efforts to consolidate some of these server processes on fewer, BIG honkin' boxes, but they never really got much time to work on those kinds of efforts because they were constantly scrambling to get the next issue out the door.

I appreciate your clarifications Tony. As i said before, My info on these things is mostly from other MMOs, if CoH was truly this spaghetti then i feel for the CoH devs. However, as none of us have seen the code we do not know this to be the truth, even if its not the truth any longer. You nor i know if anyone else could be up to task and until the code is out, we never will. Kind of a moot point, but at least i got to respond and see your responce without deletion. The other stuff was not hostile, just further tech mumbojumbo.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 12:57:29 AM
I appreciate your clarifications Tony. As i said before, My info on these things is mostly from other MMOs, if CoH was truly this spaghetti then i feel for the CoH devs. However, as none of us have seen the code we do not know this to be the truth, even if its not the truth any longer. You nor i know if anyone else could be up to task and until the code is out, we never will. Kind of a moot point, but at least i got to respond and see your responce without deletion. The other stuff was not hostile, just further tech mumbojumbo.

Well I am sure it is possible someone else could do it, I do believe it is rather complicated.  I don't really know anything about the tech side of all of this, but I do feel I can believe the multiple people (Devs included) who said it was a mess to work with.  But Leo certainly is not the only human on the entire planet who can do it, he just may be the only one with the code that is able to do it.  Whether it be coding or any other walk of life - someone else, somewhere else, is just as good.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 01:01:12 AM
Please unclamp your jaws from my head, thank you.

Congrats!   You made me laugh!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: eabrace on April 18, 2019, 01:01:55 AM
Just for the record, if you guys keep giving Codewalker credit for Sentinel+, you're going to summon GuyPerfect.   For the sake of my own sanity, please don't.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 01:05:52 AM
Just for the record, if you guys keep giving Codewalker credit for Sentinel+, you're going to summon GuyPerfect.   For the sake of my own sanity, please don't.

He always entertained me.   There is no higher praise.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 01:07:03 AM
Just for the record, if you guys keep giving Codewalker credit for Sentinel+, you're going to summon GuyPerfect.   For the sake of my own sanity, please don't.
Oh woops....I already started the ritual to summon him :( In true CoH style I was doing a CoT ritual so it may end up with a few demons on the loose as well.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: P51mus on April 18, 2019, 01:18:32 AM
It's worth noting that in his video, People's Hero Mr. Destroyer Stroyer specifically called out how:
  • When he hosted an event in Rikti War Zone, "RZW ran like crap" with more than a handful of people in the zone

Since no one has really refuted this since it's been posted, I'd just like to say that I ran in some RWZ raids when the game was still running on official servers, and they always ran like crap on the official servers.

RWZ raids not running well is not any kind of evidence of it not being ready to release.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 01:32:54 AM
If by RWZ raids, you mean mother ship raids.   I agree with you. 
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 01:38:23 AM
Ironwolf, you're got a lot of clout and grit.

Let's stay positive. A playable version of CoH still exists.  Just let that sink in. 

This is to anyone that'll listen:
Let go of your anger, or use is for some good.  Step back and take some breaths, do some yoga or punch something.  Cry your eyes out.  Yell at the sky.  Do what you need to do.  Take a beat.

Now,
What can be done so everyone can play and enjoy the game?  Let's solve that problem. Who can help Leo (or whomever has the code).  Remember, there was a source behind this: Leo got it from somewhere. 

As a community we need to back the people that need help.  All this anger let's direct it someplace positive.  Let's get the game going again.  Leo has that seed and has been care-taking it.  That seed has grown a little under his care.  For lack of better words, it's alive and there's hope.  Now it's time to show him that it's safe to release what's grown and recreate the forest that was once City of Heroes and in a way that no company can every take that away again.   

If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft.

I am not really angry - more disappointed that some people lost sight of the goal.

They found Van Gogh's Starry Night left in the attic of a house and instead of sharing it with the world - or even attempt to - they had it locked in a safe and showed it to their friends only. Many people spent thousands of hours enjoying the world in our own painting. When we thought it was gone, destroyed in a moment as the game literally stopped in our arms - we found out someone had it all along.

Can you imagine a world without Van Gogh? Isaac Asimov? Harry Freaking Dresden? To some of us this was art and joy as we sat and watched the sun set on Talos.

It disappoints me that so many unknowns exist - could those purchasing the game have had access to this code? Would it have been simpler for them to negotiate for the rights of the game if they didn't need NCSoft to help? I just see wasted time and the final cart being pushed down the road as they yell bring out your dead. I fear this killed the game - not the leaks but the fear and honestly from my point of view insanity of a few.

If they said - we will kept one secret as a back up and open one and see what happens - I would completely understand never showing the secret one if the open one was C&D'd. It wasn't what they did - they did hide, lie and deflect for YEARS. I am stubborn, but very disappointed.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 01:41:54 AM
Congrats!   You made me laugh!

Consider that payback for helping me locate the CIT where I cringed while reading a roleplay character profile I wrote a decade ago.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 01:42:57 AM
If by RWZ raids, you mean mother ship raids.   I agree with you.

It would be easier listing raids that werent laggy tbh
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 01:47:12 AM
Consider that payback for helping me locate the CIT where I cringed while reading a roleplay character profile I wrote a decade ago.

Be thankful it was there for you to read.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 01:47:41 AM
I am not really angry - more disappointed that some people lost sight of the goal.

They found Van Gogh's Starry Night left in the attic of a house and instead of sharing it with the world - or even attempt to - they had it locked in a safe and showed it to their friends only. Many people spent thousands of hours enjoying the world in our own painting. When we thought it was gone, destroyed in a moment as the game literally stopped in our arms - we found out someone had it all along.

Can you imagine a world without Van Gogh? Isaac Asimov? Harry Freaking Dresden? To some of us this was art and joy as we sat and watched the sun set on Talos.

It disappoints me that so many unknowns exist - could those purchasing the game have had access to this code? Would it have been simpler for them to negotiate for the rights of the game if they didn't need NCSoft to help? I just see wasted time and the final cart being pushed down the road as they yell bring out your dead. I fear this killed the game - not the leaks but the fear and honestly from my point of view insanity of a few.

If they said - we will kept one secret as a back up and open one and see what happens - I would completely understand never showing the secret one if the open one was C&D'd. It wasn't what they did - they did hide, lie and deflect for YEARS. I am stubborn, but very disappointed.

Basically where I am at, just really disappointed.  And to make it worse, judging by what I have seen from various leaks - there was no intent to make this public.  I will say it makes me a little angry when I see "This was for the good of the community and now it's ruined" because its insulting to be asked to trust someone who just lied to you for 6 years.  My chances of playing CoH were already at 0% I don't know why I should believe this whole leak has somehow made it even more unlikely for me to ever play.  The only thing SCoRE could do in retaliation is...create a private server and not invite most people.  If the code is taken away from them by NCSoft, or they decide to get rid of it.  The vast majority of the community is exactly in the same place we have been in for 7 years.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 01:48:58 AM
It would be easier listing raids that werent laggy tbh

"Ground to a halt" might be a better description.  It was still fun and I'd do it again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Dale-Man on April 18, 2019, 01:53:00 AM
When I found out about this server, honestly, I was thrilled! The fact that there is a working server is good news.  If you asked me last week, I would have thought I most likely would never play this game again. Now, I am 99% sure that I will.

It seems there is a whole team of people working on this server. I doubt they're getting paid; this would be a labor of love. I am confident they will release the code if for no other reason than because I have a hard time believing their end goal is to have a low population server all to themselves.

Instead of assuming the worst, let's hope for the best. That is all we can do.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 01:57:04 AM
When I found out about this server, honestly, I was thrilled! The fact that there is a working server is good news. I was hopeful that there was a secret  If you asked me last week, I would have thought I most likely would never play this game again. Now, I am 99% sure that I will.

It seems there is a whole team of people working on this server. I doubt they're getting paid; this would be a labor of love. I am confident they will release the code if for no other reason than because I have a hard time believing their end goal is to have a low population server all to themselves.

Instead of assuming the worst, let's hope for the best. That is all we can do.

I appreciate the optimism and I hope it does mean we can all play again.  Perhaps I've read too much bias from one side.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 01:58:06 AM
When I found out about this server, honestly, I was thrilled! The fact that there is a working server is good news.  If you asked me last week, I would have thought I most likely would never play this game again. Now, I am 99% sure that I will.

It seems there is a whole team of people working on this server. I doubt they're getting paid; this would be a labor of love. I am confident they will release the code if for no other reason than because I have a hard time believing their end goal is to have a low population server all to themselves.

Instead of assuming the worst, let's hope for the best. That is all we can do.

They have had the server working for at least 6 years. The original game ran for 8 years. They have nearly had the Elitist server open for nearly as long as the game ran legally, let that sink in and tell me again how they ever planned to share the game.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 02:02:46 AM
They have had the server working for at least 6 years. The original game ran for 8 years. They have nearly had the Elitist server open for nearly as long as the game ran legally, let that sink in and tell me again how they ever planned to share the game.

This is pretty much how i feel about this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 02:05:37 AM
If we ever do get to play again, a supergroup comprised of the participants in this thread over the last 3 days would be so outrageously dysfunctional we could basically make it a youtube reality show.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 02:07:26 AM
This is pretty much how i feel about this.

I just remember the hope we had in a buyer and all the while these guys had the server. I want people to stop peeing on my head and telling me its raining.

I really am a boy scout, a veteran and believe in honor, duty and kindness and this whole thing stinks to high heaven.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 02:08:34 AM
And my post complaining about how the censorship of this site is restricting it all to an unrelated thread years old got censored.

No message of course.

No response about why this thread is the most suitable.

If I were to guess its because this is the most likely place people on this forum will know to look.  This post eventually became "official unofficial general discussion channel"  I imagine to prevent multiple threads from popping up, it was easiest to direct even who to the most popular, and commonly read the thread.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 02:09:56 AM
I just remember the hope we had in a buyer and all the while these guys had the server. I want people to stop peeing on my head and telling me its raining.

I really am a boy scout, a veteran and believe in honor, duty and kindness and this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I remember seeing your posts and it just gave me the most hope(this thread technically?). Then it just went silent...at least we know the truths now. It's better than just sitting here and hoping. Attending events and being told by the people in control to keep hope while they got to log in to the game and play behind our backs.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 02:12:21 AM
Gonna echo the hope thing.  I remember how excited I was when I read all that.  I mean even now we are still using that same forum post years later.  I probably annoyed the hell out of everyone I know because I wouldn't shut up about the "superhero MMO I use to play might come back!"

Now I am just annoying them by complaining about how bummed I am there has been a secret server for years.  Bummed about the secretive, deceptive part.  Glad the game code still exists.

EDIT: I even remember where I was when I read the forum post like it was yesterday (This coming from a guy who forgets where his keys are on a daily basis).  That was the most excited and hopeful I have been about probably any game, ever.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 02:16:08 AM
Dysfunctional because...?They got lied to and got hurt and are passionate about the game they loved? You're being more aggressive and uncivil than most of the people you claim are dysfunctional.

There we go with the knee jerk biting off of the head again.

It was a joke. I'm more talking about the fact that so many people in here are going back and forth and there is no general consensus over anything, you have people on all levels of the spectrum of responses to the news in this thread. That's why putting us all in one group would be dysfunctional, it's The Odd Couple aspect of it, I wasn't calling anyone in here dysfunctional people. Points for the triple axel over the gun though.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 02:18:15 AM
There we go with the knee jerk biting off of the head again.

It was a joke. I'm more talking about the fact that so many people in here are going back and forth and there is no general consensus over anything, you have people on all levels of the spectrum of responses to the news in this thread. That's why putting us all in one group would be dysfunctional, it's The Odd Couple aspect of it, I wasn't calling anyone in here dysfunctional people. Points for the triple axel over the gun though.
Lol, sounds like most pug TF's I got in - was there some reason we just aggro'd that 6th group?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 02:24:34 AM
> If you are angry, yes you I'm talking directly to you behind the monitor: direct it to NCSoft.

And direct it to the people who gaslight and lied about the private cool kids server.

I'm going to be as gentle as I can with this, but I just wanted to second the notion that I think we need to acknowledge and get some sort of comment on some of the nasty behavior that's went on before the reveal. Stuff like the aforementioned gaslighting and lying. Not to mention the numerous people driven out of various coh communities, some here, the subreddit, the Facebook etc when people started getting close to finding out about score and what they were doing.

People were laughed out. Pushed out. Treated like flat earther big foot believer Alex Jones conspiracy nuts for believing in something that ended up being completely true. Regardless of whether anyone thinks that hiding the truth was required or not, I think there needs to be some apologies given to the people that were excluded and ruined for getting close to the truth.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ice Trix on April 18, 2019, 02:24:54 AM
I just remember the hope we had in a buyer and all the while these guys had the server. I want people to stop peeing on my head and telling me its raining.

I really am a boy scout, a veteran and believe in honor, duty and kindness and this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

 I really used to have had high opinions about the importance of community to many of the people now claiming it's raining. These were people whose word I trusted.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kheprera on April 18, 2019, 02:27:21 AM
Lol, sounds like most pug TF's I got in - was there some reason we just aggro'd that 6th group?

Sorry, that was me. Accidentally turned on Superspeed after being hit with Speed Boost, lost control, got lost in the office map, and ended up smack dab in the middle of the room with the boss. Just use my corpse for Fallout.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Doc Boy on April 18, 2019, 02:30:06 AM
I found my original Titan Network account, woo!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 02:45:26 AM
I'm going to be as gentle as I can with this, but I just wanted to second the notion that I think we need to acknowledge and get some sort of comment on some of the nasty behavior that's went on before the reveal. Stuff like the aforementioned gaslighting and lying. Not to mention the numerous people driven out of various coh communities, some here, the subreddit, the Facebook etc when people started getting close to finding out about score and what they were doing.

People were laughed out. Pushed out. Treated like flat earther big foot believer Alex Jones conspiracy nuts for believing in something that ended up being completely true. Regardless of whether anyone thinks that hiding the truth was required or not, I think there needs to be some apologies given to the people that were excluded and ruined for getting close to the truth.

This is one reason I feel so dumb.  I was one of those "no way just a crazy theory you whacko" people because I was being told it was impossible. Turns out it was very much so possible but I was being told otherwise by some members of the community that were saying they had the best interest of CoH at heart, and the knowledge to back it up.  There are a lot of very active, and popular, members of this community who I am now wondering "Were they in the know?" They had the knowledge, the connections, and the discretion to get an invite.  I am not accusing anyone or interested in naming anyone because I wouldn't even know where to begin and it doesn't really matter anyway. I don't blame them for keeping their lips sealed.

 I just have a lot of questions that I don't think will be answered.  Discretion is the smartest option for anyone in the know and involved right now, and the rest of us can only speculate.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 02:54:40 AM
Massively OP's special edition podcast on our topic of the day:

https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/17/massively-op-podcast-episode-217-city-of-heroes-after-dark/

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ice Trix on April 18, 2019, 03:02:42 AM
If I were to guess its because this is the most likely place people on this forum will know to look.  This post eventually became "official unofficial general discussion channel"  I imagine to prevent multiple threads from popping up, it was easiest to direct even who to the most popular, and commonly read the thread.

Well, you have to guess, as the mods keep deleting it. Almost like they don't want people pointing out that a five year thread with 1000+ pages of unrelated content is about the least visible place.

Anyone doubting censorship isn't paying attention.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 03:09:27 AM
Well, you have to guess, as the mods keep deleting it. Almost like they don't want people pointing out that a five year thread with 1000+ pages of unrelated content is about the least visible place.

Anyone doubting censorship isn't paying attention.

It's not really the mods fault that the discussion landed here in the first place, that comes down to the first few posters who brought it into this thread and kick the discussion off in here.

Quarantining a large topic like this is fairly common, or else you just let it turn into complete unmitigated anarchy, similar to the subreddit currently. They let it stay on this topic because this one had the most activity on the discussion at that time. I suppose they could all move it to one super thread or something but that would be a lot of tedious work to migrate 3 days of discussion onto a new thread, I'd think.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ice Trix on April 18, 2019, 03:20:47 AM
It's not really the mods fault that the discussion landed here in the first place, that comes down to the first few posters who brought it into this thread and kick the discussion off in here.

Quarantining a large topic like this is fairly common, or else you just let it turn into complete unmitigated anarchy, similar to the subreddit currently. They let it stay on this topic because this one had the most activity on the discussion at that time. I suppose they could all move it to one super thread or something but that would be a lot of tedious work to migrate 3 days of discussion onto a new thread, I'd think.

It really wouldnt have been difficult to close this discussion rather than the "https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=13277.0" which was started within minutes of this thread taking off with the issue.

Even if it hadn't, it's standard forum stuff to make a mega thread if needed. Without need to move threads/posts. Or without the need to delete posts of why it should be elsewhere.

This is biggest news in City of Heroes fandom for years, and cohtitan relegates it to a back water thread.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Crimsanotic on April 18, 2019, 03:33:19 AM
It's not really the mods fault that the discussion landed here in the first place, that comes down to the first few posters who brought it into this thread and kick the discussion off in here.

Yes it is. They told people to post in this thread lmao
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 03:47:40 AM
Yes it is. They told people to post in this thread lmao

The post on this thread about the subject predates the mods directing people here,though, only by about 20 minutes to be fair.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 03:50:15 AM
Massively OP's special edition podcast on our topic of the day:

https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/17/massively-op-podcast-episode-217-city-of-heroes-after-dark/

That was entertaining but  I disagree with the show's opinion that there is no path to redemption for the SCORE team within the CoX community.  Just hearing that statement makes me feel ashamed for all of us.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 18, 2019, 03:55:28 AM
They have had the server working for at least 6 years.

This is necessarily at you per se, Ironwolf, just you're the most recent to use the 6 year term. I'm not confident that they had it running in the state it's in for 6 years... Several, to be sure, but what I'm seeing is that it was *started* 6 years ago, and did take at least a little bit of time to be playable.

Can you imagine a world without Van Gogh? Isaac Asimov? Harry Freaking Dresden?

 ??? You just included Harry Dresden on a list to be equal with Van Gogh and Asimov... I now have some serious concerns about your state of mind.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quotes above no longer link properly. But they are unmodified, and the originals can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on April 18, 2019, 04:05:31 AM
It would be easier listing raids that werent laggy tbh
i did at least three dozen Mothership Raids on two servers and so far i'm up to approximately...
Let's see, carry the one and add three...
zero.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 04:05:49 AM
That was entertaining but  I disagree with the show's opinion that there is no path to redemption for the SCORE team within the CoX community.  Just hearing that statement makes me feel ashamed for all of us.

Why? They lied, shamed and gas lighted us for up to 6 years. I don't think it's a stretch to claim the score users have an uphill climb ahead of them to regain everyone's trust. Trust that we can at least agree they've broken.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 04:06:18 AM
That was entertaining but  I disagree with the show's opinion that there is no path to redemption for the SCORE team within the CoX community.  Just hearing that statement makes me feel ashamed for all of us.

It certainly will take some time to get over, and trust will likely never be there again.  I mean I can't help but be a little upset when I think of all the times I missed CoH and it was actually playable somewhere in secret.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 04:07:43 AM
This is necessarily at you per se, Ironwolf, just you're the most recent to use the 6 year term. I'm not confident that they had it running in the state it's in for 6 years... Several, to be sure, but what I'm seeing is that it was *started* 6 years ago, and did take at least a little bit of time to be playable.

 ??? You just included Harry Dresden on a list to be equal with Van Gogh and Asimov... I now have some serious concerns about your state of mind.

If you read the comments after the podcast Bree logged into the server in 2013. She never played on it but Leondro showed her what they were doing. I can easily guess who was doing what on the development side, I am sure all of you can as well.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 18, 2019, 04:13:22 AM
If you read the comments after the podcast Bree logged into the server in 2013. She never played on it but Leondro showed her what they were doing. I can easily guess who was doing what on the development side, I am sure all of you can as well.

Yeah, I read that after my comment. Fortunately I dodged the incoming egg, but now I've gotta clean up my wall.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on April 18, 2019, 04:29:49 AM
It really wouldnt have been difficult to close this discussion rather than the "https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=13277.0 (https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=13277.0)" which was started within minutes of this thread taking off with the issue.

Even if it hadn't, it's standard forum stuff to make a mega thread if needed. Without need to move threads/posts. Or without the need to delete posts of why it should be elsewhere.

This is biggest news in City of Heroes fandom for years, and cohtitan relegates it to a back water thread.
This has been the primary thread for discussing matters related to playing CoH again since the official servers were shut down. When i check into the forums to look for news it's the first thread i look at. In my opinion your definition of backwater needs work since this thread is no more of a backwater than the rest of the Titan Network. Which it is to a certain extent since its focus is on an MMO that was shut down years ago, and until recently with no known private/emulated servers.


i'd certainly like to see the server code made more widely available, and while i will concede that some of Leandro's "explanation" (basically "oh we were planning to let more people know about it any week now, yup any week, but you all had to go and ruin it") is at the least extremely reminiscent of gaslighting behavior i'm still hoping that *someone* will release it somewhere accessible. At this point i've sort of given up on CoH being purchased from NCsoft since i'm guessing it helps to pad out their soft manger full of mothballed games, and many other *running* MMOs (such as WoW, and including a fair number of Korean MMOs) have unofficial private servers running. i've watched a variety of MMO recommendation videos on Youtube that actually specifically direct people on how to locate these game servers to play them, but i guess most other publishers are less aggressively, vindictively litigious than NCsoft. Even Blizzard is more tolerant.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tubbius on April 18, 2019, 04:30:31 AM
To know that folks might have been playing as my Tubbius or Waddle the Penguin or been having occasional fun with some of my Architect PENGUIN levels. . . Sigh. :-\

At least someone could have been enjoying my hard work, I guess.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on April 18, 2019, 04:39:55 AM

until recently with no known private/emulated servers.
Oh, and i'm not trying to disparage the work of the SEGS people, they've made impressive progress, especially recently, but they're still a ways from having a working server with all the basic functionality needed to be a superhero MMO.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 18, 2019, 04:40:00 AM
I don't believe it would have ever been released a quote from the Reddit Mole:

The policy was in place from at least 2013. Please be careful about assigning malice to these policies. We are talking about people willing to risk their personal freedom to keep the world alive and maintaining strict secrecy with harsh consequences was just how it had to be done in their minds. I hope these answers satisfy for now.

They were justifying themselves for 6 years that it was the only way to keep "their" home - not OUR home.

Uhh.... What you're quoting from "the mole" as an indictment of Leo is actually exonerating. Here is someone who stopped being involved with this project because they objected to the secrecy and to Leo's policy say this:

"Please be careful about assigning malice to these policies."

He disagreed with that policy and yet, doesn't think it came from bad intentions.

But this goes to my earlier point with people taking "evidence" in the worst possible reading rather than any benefit of the doubt.

People kept a secret and it gets called "gaslighting." Yeah, people keeping a secret will lie about it. It's called keeping a secret. "Gaslighting" is intentionally fooling someone to drive them crazy. Calling what SCoRE did 'gaslighting' is despicable in imputing such malign intentions.

In a leaked letter, we see Leo getting angry at someone for posting about the secret project and chews their head off... like any of us would do if someone publicized our secret project which they had agreed to keep secret. And yet, the very letter they post (on reddit) shows Leo offering that person another chance! But that gets ignored and they just focus on the angry part and accuse Leo of bullying people ignoring the person who broke their promise to keep it secret.

Seriously, every bit of "evidence" people have shown has utterly failed to convince me in the slightest that their accusations of bad intent have any merit.

If they want to be angry that they weren't involved or that the project was secret, fine. Totally understandable. But assigning malice? Despicable.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on April 18, 2019, 04:46:59 AM
People kept a secret and it gets called "gaslighting." Yeah, people keeping a secret will lie about it. It's called keeping a secret. "Gaslighting" is intentionally fooling someone to drive them crazy. Calling what SCoRE did 'gaslighting' is despicable in imputing such malign intentions.
To me the specific bit about how they were planning to release the server in the very near future until the leaker ruined it seems rather suspiciously like a gaslighting tactic, and gaslighting isn't simply about driving people crazy, it's a way of trying to manipulate people, frequently by trying to convince them that everything bad that is done is their own fault, not the other person's. It's simply that i don't find it credible that after six years of work SCoRE was at most weeks away from giving more access until the leaker suddenly ruined everything.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 04:54:51 AM
Gas lighting is simply put: convincing someone their sanity is suspect to conceal a lie.

There have been numerous times both in the subreddit, and this forum that people bringing up the existence of a secret server have been met with labels of stupidity and "crackpot conspiracy theories". Even going as far to link believing in a secret server to believing in bigfoot, ufos, and that the earth is flat.

That is the definition of gas lighting.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ulysses Dare on April 18, 2019, 05:00:15 AM
People kept a secret and it gets called "gaslighting." Yeah, people keeping a secret will lie about it. It's called keeping a secret. "Gaslighting" is intentionally fooling someone to drive them crazy. Calling what SCoRE did 'gaslighting' is despicable in imputing such malign intentions.
It's true the term gaslighting gets overused these days, but in this case I think the term might just be warranted. Over the past few years both the Titan Network and r/Cityofheroes had a moderation policy in place wherein any mention of private servers would be deleted. Whenever this policy was questioned, the official explanation was always some variation of "no one has a private server up and running, the people making these posts are either trolls or scammers". Now, in the case of r/Cityofheroes at least, we know that Leandro himself set that policy up—he's actually admitted to it publicly. And, while I don't personally know of anyone who was silenced, banned, or ostracized because of that policy, I do know that it's mere existence was used by awful lot of people to dismiss anyone who even suggested the possible existence of private servers.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 18, 2019, 05:14:34 AM
To know that folks might have been playing as my Tubbius or Waddle the Penguin or been having occasional fun with some of my Architect PENGUIN levels. . . Sigh. :-\

At least someone could have been enjoying my hard work, I guess.
Uhm, didn't they say that characters and account info were not given with the code as such data was not needed to run the server and would be a massive privacy breach?

Anyway,  I am glad there is a secret server somewhere out there.  I am bummed that I am not on it being able to recreate some of my characters and having some fun again.

I've been playing a lot of classic games since the shut down but have not yet found an MMO that I like. Star Wars to be was a dud, never liked WoW, DC disappointed, Marvel stinks, Champions is one big nerf sponge, etc.

Hoping for Titans, SoH or Valiance to get up and running, and  of course the occasional visit to Paragon Chat for nostalgia.

But seriously if they can find a country where Korea and the US cannot shut down the servers, then set them up there, launch a few servers and let us get into them and play again. That way the CoH community can turn to NCSoft, the ones who shut it all down and refuse to sell it, and express our true feelings to them.  8)   

I'm thinking a giant middle finger to NCSoft would suffice....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 18, 2019, 05:15:48 AM
I can't speak for why someone would call it crackpot when, as people have already quoted often in this thread, Tony had posted about the SCoRE project back in its infancy. Did Leo call it crackpot?

If posts were removed, I can understand why the mods wouldn't want such a discussion about potentially illegal activity discussed on the boards.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Doc Boy on April 18, 2019, 05:17:39 AM
It's true the term gaslighting gets overused these days, but in this case I think the term might just be warranted. Over the past few years both the Titan Network and r/Cityofheroes had a moderation policy in place wherein any mention of private servers would be deleted. Whenever this policy was questioned, the official explanation was always some variation of "no one has a private server up and running, the people making these posts are either trolls or scammers". Now, in the case of r/Cityofheroes at least, we know that Leandro himself set that policy up—he's actually admitted to it publicly. And, while I don't personally know of anyone who was silenced, banned, or ostracized because of that policy, I do know that it's mere existence was used by awful lot of people to dismiss anyone who even suggested the possible existence of private servers.

just to corroborate


The people running the private server were also running the reddit and involved in pretty much all major community roles, Leandro playing it off as he didnt mod the subreddit the Auto-Mod modded the subreddit.....yeah but who set up the Auto-Mod, you pal. They played dumb and removed all private server discussion under the guise of private servers dont exist its just speculation.

Yet they knew it existed because they were on the private servers, lol.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 05:23:46 AM
I can't speak for why someone would call it crackpot when, as people have already quoted often in this thread, Tony had posted about the SCoRE project back in its infancy. Did Leo call it crackpot?

If posts were removed, I can understand why the mods wouldn't want such a discussion about potentially illegal activity discussed on the boards.

It wasn't that SCoRE was working on a server that people considered crackpot.  It was that there was a secret fully functional server in existence that was invitation only, that people considered to be a crackpot conspiracy theory.  Turns out it was true.

On this very forum, it was compared to flat earth conspiracies, the fake moon landing, and reptile overlords.  Now I don't think all, if any, of the people who made these comparisons knew about the server and was saying this to throw the scent off.  I know I thought it was a crazy conspiracy theory.  But this is because I, and many others, were being told it was impossible by the very people hosting a secret server.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Leandro on April 18, 2019, 06:00:37 AM
However - we know nothing of the server. It might be running on someone's PC on a cable connection.

(https://i.imgur.com/nTZsgKm.png)

Ascendant was the first. For those of you who know when he passed away, that will give you a rough timeframe on when we actually had functional servers. He did get to play a little before the end, on the first VM server that couldn't hold more than 20 people without crashing. His memorial in Paragon Chat is there because he was the first player we lost after the shutdown, but sadly not the last. Crom was another one of his characters.

(https://i.imgur.com/UmL35iq.jpg)

Luna. Sue Accord (https://www.facebook.com/lunamoone). She fought cancer bravely for years, and stayed positive until the end. When she died in early 2017, I made the call to not call the Anniversary badge in her honor (https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=12571.0) because that's what everybody wanted. Instead, she got to continue to help people play the game when we bought our next server. Used servers, because that's all we could afford, hosted in a colocation rack that, yes, costs over a thousand dollars a month to maintain on a datacenter.

So many others, some that you know and some that you don't. Todogut. Goodtime. Norsewind. Goldclaw, Steelclaw's wife. Curupira, who joined the Freedom server back in Issue 4 in the same week that I did, and we stayed in touch until a brain tumor took hold, and I spent years wondering what happened to her until I found her obituary online. She lived until 2015, but cancer had taken such a toll that it was just not possible to stay in touch. Chloe, oh my god, Chloe, I am so sorry, Mystel.

No, this is not something that is being run on someone's PC on a cable connection. This is 16 servers that were bought over a period of 6 years to expand the population as fast as we could, because every single one of them was a remind of what happens when we take too long. We lose a friend. Then another. Then another.

Red Dragon, Lady Judgement, Janlee, Staff Kain, Raine Heartfall, Gloryhound, Mrs. PosiChimp, Reikun. So many more. They are not servers yet because we have not had the resources to remember them that way. Every single server is a reminder, and every single time I hear about the passing of a COH player, I am reminded that I'm not doing enough and I'm not doing things fast enough.

Sorry Tony, I know I promised I'd never bring this back to this forum, and please stop throwing yourself in front of buses to defend me. I am the asshole who didn't release things fast enough. That is a valid complaint. But that was not a decision that was done to harm the community because "f*** you, got mine" like so many people are saying. Initially, I thought a public server would be out in two years. Then my grandmother broke her hip, had to move moved across the country to be with us, and died. Then my dog had puppies, which should have been a cause of joy, but instead one I spent 17 months desperately trying to save one of them due to a heart defect with no cure, until he couldn't even stand, but he still wanted to play (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayUe8zN1F1U). Then I was diagnosed with severe thyroid issues that left me unable to concentrate on anything for months. Life gets in the way.

Then suddenly, six years had passed.

I know the community is hurt and it's my fault. I am moving as fast as I can to try to make things better, but I can't make instantly get everything ready. I have not slept since my phone was published on Monday at 2am and notifications haven't stopped ringing since then.

Please. Have patience. I am only human. And I am trying really hard to keep almost 3539 people from being harrassed and threatened as I have been for the last 4 days.

Yes, almost 3539 people. Because many of them are not around anymore. And every single one of them is a reminder of my failure to make this work.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 18, 2019, 06:04:19 AM
Leandro, if you're here and posting, please, please, tell us you plan to release the code, that you plan to let more people play.

Please give us something more than this post.

It would mean a lot to a lot of us.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 06:08:41 AM
Snipped

Thank you for your reply.  I still have questions as well, but it does actually please me to know that at least some players got to play again before they passed away.  I will say as someone who isn't part of that 3539 it does hurt to know a game I missed so much has been around for quite some time, but I hope this does lead to a way all of us can play again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Reiraku on April 18, 2019, 06:11:35 AM
I don't know why, but there's a bit of comfort for me knowing Tre got to play a bit before he passed. I'm glad he got to be in the city he loved one last time.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 06:17:33 AM
If you are truly working on getting the server up and running for public release, now is the time to create a public roadmap of your progress/destination and post it somewhere so that everyone can see it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Castegyre on April 18, 2019, 06:21:23 AM
Interesting and touching. The thing I always miss the most from these games is also the thing that genuinely makes them engaging, the people I've played alongside. They're worth remembering.

My cynicism is rearing it's ugly head, though, so I'll shut up before I say something stupid... er.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 07:22:11 AM
I appreciate seeing a declaration of progress and public release, even if it's just a long overdue renewed declaration, it's a definite step in the right direction at this point.

That's a couple of the more common questions asked too, in the very least, and a thoughtful naming system.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 18, 2019, 07:41:08 AM
Since no one has really refuted this since it's been posted, I'd just like to say that I ran in some RWZ raids when the game was still running on official servers, and they always ran like crap on the official servers.

RWZ raids not running well is not any kind of evidence of it not being ready to release.

The paragon devs fixed the server side issues for large scale events like the msr quite some time ago. We had a server stress test event in peregrine island where they spawned thousands of praetorian idf soldiers. Large leagues, msrs, hami, and the rikti/zombie apocalypse were 100% fixed by the patch they applied. Only those with potatoe computers and and god awful internet still had problems.
Now Whatever that fix was probably hasnt been applied to this private server or the server hardware itself is lacking.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 07:54:20 AM
I appreciate seeing a declaration of progress and public release,

I hate to be "that person", but nothing in his post mentioned a public release. Just that he wasn't getting things 'ready' fast enough and was taking too long. I know it feels like absolute semantics to point out a simple lack of the word public in his release plans...but he also claimed in his original interview with MassivelyOP that it was his fear of C&D from NCsoft what was keeping him from going public, and that he and the SCoRE team would never go public until they were sure they would not be under threat from NCSoft. Not a lack of development like now.

So yes, it's sad that he had a series of personal tragedies and setbacks that kept him from finishing the server for four years past his initial plans, he's already admitted the servers are never going public until NCSoft themselves say it's okay. Which...I mean I don't need to finish that sentence.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 07:58:20 AM
To be clear. I've been a strong opponent of the actions they took. However, he just spent hours being open and honest with people on the SEGS discord. This is exactly the action I've mentioned before would help restore faith and mend wounds. I appreciate that he did that, and so did the many many people there for it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 18, 2019, 08:04:35 AM
Ok now mate. You should have said something about this sooner than 6 years. I lost my 2 aunts and then my grandma and uncle all in one week and recently my favorite aunt that had been paralyzed for 15 years. It hurt like hell and im not gonna try and compete with you for sob stories. But this game really would have been nice to escape some of that pain.

I dont hate you by any measure but I still am upset and disappointed with means you took to handle this situation. But im not calling for your death or not part  of an angry internet mob spamming or trying to get your personal info exposed. I am just another one of those players you listed that wants to play again before I die

I hope you’ll make a decision soon on how to resolve this before those idiots making petitions to ncsoft get too much attention on this.  Because constantly reminding them will be what does everything in...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 08:16:27 AM
I don't hate to be "That person" I've had my hand in running private servers (Not COH related) So I know a thing or two about setbacks.

So I'm going to say what nobody wants to hear but needs to be said.

Instead of coming out with all the pitchforks and torches, because THAT is EASY...

We should do what is NOT Easy.

Instead... we should put on our capes and be heroes.

Heal your wounds.

Come back together as the community we are supposed to be and if at all possible...

Dear God if at all possible...please, support Leo.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 08:27:07 AM
Come back together as the community we are supposed to be

"The community" has been told we were stupid crackpots for thinking that there was a private server in the first place.

Why should the community now support the person who sought to divide the community to hide the existence of his secrets?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 08:29:06 AM
HEAL.

YOUR.

WOUNDS.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 08:31:08 AM
HEAL.

YOUR.

WOUNDS.

You can't heal wounds you don't acknowledge first
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 08:35:39 AM
You can't heal wounds you don't acknowledge first

Chill my dude, a lot of stuff went down and honestly i can say i feel Leo is not the enemy or a bad person. What happened is unfortunate but He does love CoH and is working for us not against us.

IF you don't believe me, check my earlier posts. I was right where you were.

I'm not trying to be vague, the stuff will come out through recordings from the segs discord and stuff soon no doubt. I don't personally have them or i'd show myself.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 08:36:11 AM
Is that where you want to be?

Do you want to stay wounded?   Forever?
 
Is that your comfort zone?

Because I see the rift as Thanos.

We either Heal up, Patch up, or... *Snap*

I've made my choice.

I'll Heal.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 08:41:48 AM
Unfortunately my opinions and experiences from the last several years can't be changed in an afternoon of Soontm so quickly.

But I will be watching what happens over the next several days and I hope to be proven wrong.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 08:42:48 AM
Approach with caution certainly. I'm satisfied with the transparency and honesty and am willing to give it a chance.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: summers on April 18, 2019, 08:52:54 AM
I just wanted to say thank you for talking to us, Leandro.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Voltixdark on April 18, 2019, 08:55:12 AM
Thank you Leo! I understand your hardship with real life things. We are not robots that never weary, but human. There are more important things in the real world then to strain yourself over something that is virtual. So I do hope you're in better health!

We appreciate your progress and forthcomingness. I can't speak for everyone, but I really do want to apologize for all the unwarranted hate/death threats you have received without even knowing the full story.

Anyways.. keep your head up I know we the people can be better than what was displayed these past few days.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Auroxis on April 18, 2019, 09:16:31 AM
Thanks for participating Leandro. I'm not 100% buying your side of the story about having limited time due to real life issues, considering how you spent your time hiding the existence of the server with relationship flowcharts, developing new content for the server, managing paragon chat, and silencing people.

That being said I have no problem with giving you the time you need. That time is not mine to give of course with NCSoft and insane people threatening you, but I hope that despite that you manage to pull through with the plans you set forward in your post.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Phocks on April 18, 2019, 09:20:15 AM
I am the asshole who didn't release things fast enough. That is a valid complaint. But that was not a decision that was done to harm the community because "f*** you, got mine" like so many people are saying.

I will say the whole body of the post is very unfortunate, especially hearing about the community passings and personal struggles. Sorry to hear you've had to deal with those though, and especially the negative overreactions and harassment following the announcement.

But I will say, the quoted portion there is something I (at least personally) sort of take exception with. It's not the timing alone that really makes or breaks it, it's sort of every decision around it. If it had taken this long with a team of 5 trying to get something ready, you wouldn't see this sort of reaction. But it's playing gatekeeper for a community of 3539 that's seen the game progress past where it was. It's getting something that everyone wanted that really wasn't yours to keep, and rather than paying it forward, you just kept it for that group anyway. The policies and practices and everything surrounding it that may have ostracized people is at least some part of that, too.

Nobody's gonna blame you for time passing or being human. People here were always willing to wait, but I don't think anyone wanted to be misled, lied to, and excluded.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: P51mus on April 18, 2019, 09:27:52 AM
There's a game I've kickstarted that's been in development for about as long as this private server has been up.  They had to toss a bunch of work because the original way they were doing it wasn't working out well, and had to take a bunch of side gigs to survive.  But it's still ongoing.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: DavidMadly on April 18, 2019, 09:55:05 AM
I don't hate to be "That person" I've had my hand in running private servers (Not COH related) So I know a thing or two about setbacks.

So I'm going to say what nobody wants to hear but needs to be said.

Instead of coming out with all the pitchforks and torches, because THAT is EASY...

We should do what is NOT Easy.

Instead... we should put on our capes and be heroes.

Heal your wounds.

Come back together as the community we are supposed to be and if at all possible...

Dear God if at all possible...please, support Leo.

All of this. I am far too full of renewed hope to have room for negative feelings.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Twi on April 18, 2019, 10:00:58 AM
HEAL.

YOUR.

WOUNDS.

Can't, I'm Trick Arrow/Archery!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Evilopoly90 on April 18, 2019, 10:23:23 AM
I really want this to work out. Despite all the hassle and the lies I just want the game back. However that gets into my hands is irrelevant. I'll forgive everyone involved if the game just comes out. That's all the community wants.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 10:26:29 AM
At this point - I will say one thing - be patient for a bit and stand by, I am not retired until August and have to ask about conflicts of interest issues.

I also get a sizable severance when I leave that I/we don't want to endanger for a couple of months waiting. I cannot do business during work hours and so that becomes an obvious issue.

I am going to be as honest and above board as possible, please be patient for a little longer.

Understand, I am a system admin on call normally 24/7 until August 31st.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Doc Boy on April 18, 2019, 11:23:56 AM
Its being posted everywhere, this happened in the wee hours of the night on discord there was over 100 people in voice chat during this period.

https://puu.sh/Dgpzj/32ed08128a.mp3
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 18, 2019, 11:42:46 AM
Okay so for years people that thought there was a secret server were called crazy, etc......

However during those early years, if NCSoft and the rest of us learned there was indeed a secret server, how fast would NCSoft have moved to kill that server?

Now after 7 years of shut down, despite refusal to sell the game....it is possible NCSoft won't care. Or not.

Frankly I hope this works out and we can all play again and give a giant middle finger to NCSoft.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Styrj on April 18, 2019, 12:28:28 PM
My sentiments exactly!  At this point, I hope for the best (to be able to frolic in the city again and expect the worst (as it is now - no CoH/V)).

The least NC could have done was to have put CoH/V in maintenance mode at I24.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Garble on April 18, 2019, 12:29:06 PM
This is so surreal. Over on Reddit yesterday there was a discussion of former gamers and what made them stop. This was the only big game I really ever got into. Then on facebook there was a post about some of this and was blown away. Immediately I came to CohTitan to read about it and found no specific threads.

This really needs a stickied thread. I rarely visit this thread because it's honestly just too big and too much. It's basically just a big chat room at this point.


Anyway, I can't be anything but grateful for Icon and Paragon Chat. I'm trying to be hopeful for the best possible outcome, whatever that is.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: bugzee on April 18, 2019, 01:03:47 PM
Well, I want to be positive about this. But looking forward, we still have the potential for another shutdown once NCSoft releases their legal hounds (if they haven't already). I also do not wish Leandro or anyone else to suffer legal consequences. Releasing the code 6 years ago would have at least ensured that the game will in some way always exist. Sure it may have meant a thousand private servers, but still, it would have ensured its continual existence. So now, we will always be faced with uncertainty with the game because its under control of only one person, or perhaps just a handful of individuals. I suppose the game will always have that proverbial sword hanging over its head.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 01:04:12 PM
More information will be coming - looks like my retirement will be really short.

Soon as possible more information and requests for help will be given.

To be crystal clear - I have no connection to a private server - I have never been on it and want no information about it. Detailed information about what is happening will be available as soon as possible. This will take a little time and planning to do.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 01:09:34 PM
If you are truly working on getting the server up and running for public release, now is the time to create a public roadmap of your progress/destination and post it somewhere so that everyone can see it.

No, now is the time for him to step back into the quiet.

We need others to pick up the torch, he carried it a long time and got burned a little.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Castegyre on April 18, 2019, 01:38:34 PM
Good luck with the things and stuff.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: summers on April 18, 2019, 01:40:09 PM
No, now is the time for him to step back into the quiet.

We need others to pick up the torch, he carried it a long time and got burned a little.

No, it's really not. We don't know what is happening - maybe you do, but those kinds of secrets are exactly what got us to the point we are at now.

People need to know what is happening.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: kiario on April 18, 2019, 01:45:40 PM
Here is hoping the code gets free and I can set up my own server and play solo :)
Wonder how many gigs the game is?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 18, 2019, 01:54:37 PM
No, it's really not. We don't know what is happening - maybe you do, but those kinds of secrets are exactly what got us to the point we are at now.

People need to know what is happening.

Leandro and some others are discussing what'll happen to the code over voice in the SEGS discord. I imagine things will filter out from there to here and reddit and so on.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kheprera on April 18, 2019, 01:58:33 PM
Leandro and some others are discussing what'll happen to the code over voice in the SEGS discord. I imagine things will filter out from there to here and reddit and so on.

They need to ensure the code is scrubbed. Listening to them as I work. I wish I could help, but my skills are weak in this kind of work.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Primus1 on April 18, 2019, 02:03:20 PM
Its being posted everywhere, this happened in the wee hours of the night on discord there was over 100 people in voice chat during this period.

https://puu.sh/Dgpzj/32ed08128a.mp3

What bugs me is Leandro said here that he needs to make sure if he releases the code, he doesn't want any paths to lead to the original person that leaked gets in trouble but they had 6-7 years to do this with a running game and chose to just play it instead for 6-7 years.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 02:04:00 PM
Can you quote where anybody said those words, above?

What I at least am saying is that whatever state it's in, what Destroyer Stroyer described is NOT some wonderful perfect copy of the original NCSoft server that Leandro has been sitting on and refusing to share.

Likewise, if they were considering an "event leading to a release" then the current level of scrutiny has convinced them that the current level of completeness is NOT ready for prime time.

I mean, you can't have it both ways. If you want to quote Leandro about the projected release and say, "He was going to release it sometime soon; it must be ready", you can't then ignore that it was also Leandro who decided that the current state of the server was NOT conducive to a release that will be scrutinized to the level that such a release will now be scrutinized. Likewise, if we take PC Gamer and/or Massively at face value regarding their emailed conversations with Leandro, then it appears that the issue is (and I freely admit that I'm speculating now) that he expects action from NCSoft as soon as the server is released, so he now wants to have it be not just "ready for testing" but "finished" to the point where no more work is required and it can be disseminated widely enough that action by NCSoft will be futile.

It doesn't really matter if you or I would say, "Frag the deficiencies! Give us the server!" Leandro's got the server and it's his yardstick that measures how close it is to ready; not ours.

The Sword of Damocles.

A fine post.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 02:11:08 PM
No, it's really not. We don't know what is happening - maybe you do, but those kinds of secrets are exactly what got us to the point we are at now.

People need to know what is happening.
I don't do secret except for when I was in the military - check out RAF Bentwaters and UFO visits. I was there and said nothing for 20 years in accordance with my NDA when I got out - I was a flightline night supervisor.

I can tell you I am going to try to move things forward. I work full time and while I can post on boards when its quiet - I could not in good conscience run a second business while I work.

I retire on 30th August 2019. I will get a very nice parting severance when I go and I was considering what to do with my time - Fate has intervened. I can't tell you more than this right now - because it is all I know. I am not going to do it alone and once things are planned I will let you know.

So many things to consider so I will say this:

“It’s not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly…. Who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.” -Teddy Roosevelt
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 18, 2019, 02:11:54 PM
No, now is the time for him to step back into the quiet.

We need others to pick up the torch, he carried it a long time and got burned a little.

No now is the time to not only live up to the lie but to release what they have. Especially witn idiotic
Change.org petitions and articles reaching out to ncsoft for comment.

If morons like that keep reminding ncsoft about this they will be more inclined to investigate.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Primus1 on April 18, 2019, 02:21:11 PM
No now is the time to not only live up to the lie but to release what they have. Especially witn idiotic
Change.org petitions and articles reaching out to ncsoft for comment.

If morons like that keep reminding ncsoft about this they will be more inclined to investigate.

Those news pages reaching out to NcSoft was the most idiotic thing they could've done.
They often write about COH whenever there is news as if they care but they would love for a huge "big drama show."
to write more about and get more views on their sites. Just dirty. 
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Dev7on on April 18, 2019, 02:23:02 PM
Since the private City of Heroes server has been leaked are the people are going to continue with the spiritual successors such City of Titans, Ship of Heroes ect?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 18, 2019, 02:26:47 PM
Since the private City of Heroes server has been leaked are the people are going to continue with the spiritual successors such City of Titans, Ship of Heroes ect?

It's been said repeatedly by Missing Worlds Media and Heroic Games, if City of Heroes comes back, they'll keep going regardless.  I do not know for any other titles, but City of Titans and Ship of Heroes is full speed ahead.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: rookery. on April 18, 2019, 02:40:00 PM
Yep. Still looking forward to COT, SOH and the others.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: SilverAgeFan on April 18, 2019, 02:53:20 PM
<snip>

This is 16 servers that were bought over a period of 6 years to expand the population as fast as we could, because every single one of them was a remind of what happens when we take too long. We lose a friend. Then another. Then another.

Red Dragon, Lady Judgement, Janlee, Staff Kain, Raine Heartfall, Gloryhound, Mrs. PosiChimp, Reikun. So many more. They are not servers yet because we have not had the resources to remember them that way. Every single server is a reminder, and every single time I hear about the passing of a COH player, I am reminded that I'm not doing enough and I'm not doing things fast enough.

<snip>

I know the community is hurt and it's my fault. I am moving as fast as I can to try to make things better, but I can't make instantly get everything ready. I have not slept since my phone was published on Monday at 2am and notifications haven't stopped ringing since then.

Please. Have patience. I am only human. And I am trying really hard to keep almost 3539 people from being harrassed and threatened as I have been for the last 4 days.

Yes, almost 3539 people. Because many of them are not around anymore. And every single one of them is a reminder of my failure to make this work.

Leandro, thank you for coming in here and humanizing your side of this story, your efforts, and the losses you too have shared. Also thank you for giving some clarity to the Herculean nature of the work involved. The last 48 hours must have been traumatic and thankless for you.

I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but you have cemented my respect for you and regained a level of trust.

If there was a way to donate to a server purchase effort that would further accelerate your attempts, I'm interested. And I'm not trying to buy my way into a secret server. This is with the larger goal of them being more openly available to what remains of the game's community. Please find a way, despite the last 48 hours, to trust some members of the larger community to help in ways we can.

My one selfish request in this as it all goes forward, please please please preserve the username and character database. And even if this moves towards multiple pservers distributed amongst the community, please consider advancing some means for those that desire it, to somehow restore their original account data, regardless of what server they end up on.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 02:54:30 PM
What a crazy 48 hours. I have no idea how I could help, I'm no programmer, but when hands are needed I don't mind doing whatever grunt work helps (scrubbing files, writing docs etc.).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 18, 2019, 03:03:13 PM
As I understand it, the source (original i24 flavor, I think) has been passed on for scrubbing, with release of some nature expected in the not-too-distant future. Things are still up in the air, but Leandro has handed over the torch.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 03:10:52 PM
As I understand it, the source (original i24 flavor, I think) has been passed on for scrubbing, with release of some nature expected in the not-too-distant future. Things are still up in the air, but Leandro has handed over the torch.

Where did you see that? I listened to the discord recording, but what he and the other guy talked about in private was all hush hush.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 18, 2019, 03:13:24 PM
Where did you see that? I listened to the discord recording, but what he and the other guy talked about in private was all hush hush.

It just happened in the SEGS Discord over the course of an hour, ending ~20 minutes ago; I don't know what was going on with the other guy.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 18, 2019, 03:18:28 PM
So, no surprise, Leandro is, after all, one of the guys who's most been helping and supporting CoH players and community for years both before and after the shutdown. 

What we know now. 

This IS the original I24 Beta server code leaked anonymously over a period of several days before the shutdown.  The code as he received it is full of timestamps that would allow ID-ing the person who leaked who specifically requested he not publish without scrubbing.  He has been trying to scrub/rewrite but it's very slow going. The player character database was separately sent him anonymously but also contains time information that would allow id-ing the source. 

The game is every bit as much a mess as we've always heard. The "server" is a set of custom boxes running old software versions and talking to each other in specific timing sequences.  The ExCel spreadsheets that the Devs used have been reworked into something more usable.  He has a loose team of roughly 5 who have been able to get the thing running and keep it functional while they work to improve it. The last time anybody but him saved a change was 10 months ago.

At least one other person has a DIFFERENT copy of the source code, not from the same leak.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 18, 2019, 03:27:53 PM
More information will be coming - looks like my retirement will be really short.

Soon as possible more information and requests for help will be given.

To be crystal clear - I have no connection to a private server - I have never been on it and want no information about it. Detailed information about what is happening will be available as soon as possible. This will take a little time and planning to do.

Thank-you!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 03:35:19 PM
Yes, please let Leandro go about his business in peace.

He is taking steps to clean things up and pass them on so an open server can be attempted. Once it is out to the public NCSoft - may - take steps to stop it. This won't be easy and it won't be fast - better to be right the first time than a complete mess.

You have seen first hand how understanding a customer can be about lag or crashes in the video from the leaker. He was playing in secret, for free  and still complained.........
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 18, 2019, 03:35:49 PM
So, no surprise, Leandro is, after all, one of the guys who's most been helping and supporting CoH players and community for years both before and after the shutdown. 

What we know now. 

This IS the original I24 Beta server code leaked anonymously over a period of several days before the shutdown.  The code as he received it is full of timestamps that would allow ID-ing the person who leaked who specifically requested he not publish without scrubbing.  He has been trying to scrub/rewrite but it's very slow going. The player character database was separately sent him anonymously but also contains time information that would allow id-ing the source.  The last time anybody but him saved a change was 10 months ago.

The game is every bit as much a mess as we've always heard. The "server" is a set of custom boxes running old software versions and talking to each other in specific timing sequences.  The ExCel spreadsheets that the Devs used have been reworked into something more usable.  He has a loose team of roughly 5 who have been able to get the thing running and keep it functional while they work to improve it.

At least one other person has a DIFFERENT copy of the source code, not from the same leak.

Thanks!

But yeah, the server code is spaghetti. All the CoH devs are agreed on that. So spaghetti, that for a while, no dev there knew how Taunt and aggro determination really worked!

Having the mission scripts written in Excel was crazy. And they built a mission designer overlay just to automate that process. And there are overlays on overlays: sidekicking, alignment changes, world events, etc...

It was understandable they wanted to do a CoH2 just to start fresh with clean code.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 03:40:25 PM
To everyone working behind the scenes, Thank you!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 03:42:25 PM
Anyone else kind of want a notice from the "wake me up when there is news" thread lol?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 18, 2019, 03:57:03 PM
Yes, please let Leandro go.........

Other than the most crazy people that sent death threats and exposed his personal information, I think most people will completely forget about the lie and this entire ordeal once we are playing again.

When you get down to it people just wanna play again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taliseian on April 18, 2019, 03:58:13 PM
Been a *long* time lurker here, reading and following along hoping for news about CoH.

Haven't thought for a long time that the City would see the light of day.  Been glad about Paragon Chat and SEGS and I've been online a few times, but never really expecting the real City to come back.  Always hoping for success, but never expecting it.  While PC and SEGS have made me feel good, there was always a bit part missing that made it hurt.  It's like I was in a dream - partially where I wanted to be, but everything was just out of reach.  It was always bittersweet and hurt a little.

When I started hearing and reading about Leandro and the saga of the Private Server I was upset - all I wanted to do was play a game I enjoyed and fight alongside a community I was a part of again and I felt that I was betrayed by those in whom I had not really a "trust" of, but at least people who I thought were working toward the same things I wanted. 

I haven't heard the Discord MP3 that was just posted, but I've been following the posts here, on FB, and in the Reddit groups with much more interest in the past few days.  Right now, I'm conflicted as to how to feel.  This could mean I can play a game that I've missed and be part of a community again that I've wanted for years, but there is a level of deceit that must be worked through. 

I agree 100% with with IronWolf posted -- this is not the moment to be "/em pitchfork".  That time, if necessary, will be a little further down the road.  Right now, Leandro seems to be willing to come clean and release the server code which can mean that there may be a time in the not too distant future that I can play and be a part of the community again.

**IF** this is true (and until it happens I will say IF) I have two plans...

One, I will download and attempt to setup my own server with a maximum number of accounts set to one - me.  This way, I can always play.  I can go get lost deep within Perez Park...I can always "Go Hunt. Kill Skuls."...I can always fly to the top of the statue in Atlas Park and protect MY city.  Yes, I can do those right now in PC and SEGS, but as I said it feels hollow...just doesn't feel the same.

Then, once other servers hopefully form and shake out the bugs, I'll be there fighting along side of other heroes...sweeping the sewers...Task Forces...RWZ Raids...and yes, Costume Contests, Pocket D danceoffs, and hanging around the Ski Chalet.

I've wanted to go home for years....I just want to go home...


T
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Garble on April 18, 2019, 03:58:32 PM
God speed to anyone that can bring the game back to as many people ad possible.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 04:03:05 PM

**IF** this is true (and until it happens I will say IF) I have two plans...

One, I will download and attempt to setup my own server with a maximum number of accounts set to one - me.  This way, I can always play.  I can go get lost deep within Perez Park...I can always "Go Hunt. Kill Skuls."...I can always fly to the top of the statue in Atlas Park and protect MY city.  Yes, I can do those right now in PC and SEGS, but as I said it feels hollow...just doesn't feel the same.

Then, once other servers hopefully form and shake out the bugs, I'll be there fighting along side of other heroes...sweeping the sewers...Task Forces...RWZ Raids...and yes, Costume Contests, Pocket D danceoffs, and hanging around the Ski Chalet.

I've wanted to go home for years....I just want to go home...


T

I have always wanted to have a home single player version or small version to share with my brother across town, with some form of dev control to be able to do things like set myself to god mode and play all taskforce missions etc. That said, it sounds like setting it up is like that is not so easy.

I'd likely play 99% on whatever server is out there, but knowing I would always have it would be amazing.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Radionuclide on April 18, 2019, 04:07:44 PM
People kept a secret and it gets called "gaslighting." Yeah, people keeping a secret will lie about it. It's called keeping a secret. "Gaslighting" is intentionally fooling someone to drive them crazy. Calling what SCoRE did 'gaslighting' is despicable in imputing such malign intentions.

The gaslighting was not keeping the secret. It was calling previous leakers crazy, making fun of them and and other such actions which I saw at least on Reddit. Their intent may not have been malicious but, malicious means were used to keep the secret.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Thunder Glove on April 18, 2019, 04:08:12 PM
I'm more excited than I have been in years.  I don't care about my characters (well, I do, but I still have all my costume files - and more, thanks to Icon - so I can recreate them) as much as I just want to play again.  And possibly being able to play I24, with all the improvements that was going to bring to the table (I'm STILL excited about Sorcery) is just the cherry on top.

I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but it's starting to sound like the "someday" in my last post may be closer than I could have dreamed.

(Oh, and I just realized - this computer is new.  Well, not new-new, but I got it a couple of years after the game closed down. If this all works out I can finally play the game in Ultra mode!  ... oh my god, I am getting my hopes up too much.  Calm.  Caaaaaaaaalm)

I'm babbling in my excitement.

My biggest fear is that I've built the game up too much in my head and actually playing it again (after playing more recent MMOs) will be a disappointment, but that's a chance I'm willing to take :D

Of course all this goes down when I'm about to go on a trip for two weeks and be mostly cut off from the Internet.  Time to e-mail myself a link to this topic. :D

Thank you, so much, everyone who's working on this.  I honestly think I'm actually going to cry.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 04:11:02 PM
I'm excited too, Thunder Glove, but I'm being realistic and thinking it's 6 months to a year before a new private server is up and ready (which I'm fine with). I don't think you will miss anything in two weeks lol.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 04:11:22 PM
The news:

A search for rental servers and the best data center to choose is about to begin (think Denver/Dallas).
Rental servers will be initially used because if we get a C&D letter getting stuck with selling $30k of servers would suck.

If you work in such an environment and would like us to consider you - let me know. I will be the fall guy for now and I am also looking for website hosting and development. Once that happens we can take the work away from TonyV's site and let him also be in peace. He has been of incredible value to us and our hopes still exist because of him.

This won't be a 1 day or 2 day fix - my goal is to try and have beta testing by 1 September 2019. It is the goal, but a lot of work needs to be done.


What do I aspire to? I would love to find a partner to hand all this over to and purchase rights to the game along with having the folks who worked on the updated graphics to see if they can merge that with the existing game. I hope if we can have the world ready an investor will make the effort to buy it from NCSoft.

I have no intention of making a profit from this and will post all banking details weekly or as expenses are occurred. Obviously at first I will be paying for it - I opened my mouth - I take the risk. Once it is running the costs will be known and can be budgeted for.

This is not a joke and is completely serious.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 18, 2019, 04:18:29 PM
The news:

A search for rental servers and the best data center to choose is about to begin (think Denver/Dallas).
Rental servers will be initially used because if we get a C&D letter getting stuck with selling $30k of servers would suck.

If you work in such an environment and would like us to consider you - let me know. I will be the fall guy for now and I am also looking for website hosting and development. Once that happens we can take the work away from TonyV's site and let him also be in peace. He has been of incredible value to us and our hopes still exist because of him.

This won't be a 1 day or 2 day fix - my goal is to try and have beta testing by 1 September 2019. It is the goal, but a lot of work needs to be done.


What do I aspire to? I would love to find a partner to hand all this over to and purchase rights to the game along with having the folks who worked on the updated graphics to see if they can merge that with the existing game. I hope if we can have the world ready an investor will make the effort to buy it from NCSoft.

I have no intention of making a profit from this and will post all banking details weekly or as expenses are occurred. Obviously at first I will be paying for it - I opened my mouth - I take the risk. Once it is running the costs will be known and can be budgeted for.

This is not a joke and is completely serious.

Again, thank-you!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: hamstrdam on April 18, 2019, 04:20:52 PM

This is not a joke and is completely serious.


Thank you.  Thanks to ALL of you.  I could cry with happiness.  Now back to lurking quietly in the corner, reading the chat and looking forward to the day I can when I can proudly wear my cape again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 04:25:03 PM
All in all this is a time for absolute transparency going forward.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Radionuclide on April 18, 2019, 04:30:21 PM
I know the community is hurt and it's my fault. I am moving as fast as I can to try to make things better, but I can't make instantly get everything ready. I have not slept since my phone was published on Monday at 2am and notifications haven't stopped ringing since then.

First and foremost, I am truly sorry you are being harassed. This community should be better than this. I expected better of this group of lovable assholes (yeah the lot of you). This is not ever acceptable. I am more pissed at those that have done that to you than anything else about this days.

Quote from: Leandro
Please. Have patience. I am only human. And I am trying really hard to keep almost 3539 people from being harrassed and threatened as I have been for the last 4 days.

Yes, almost 3539 people. Because many of them are not around anymore. And every single one of them is a reminder of my failure to make this work.

I can't say that I'm not hurt to not have been among that number. I am. Though truth I can't say I would have played once I found out that old characters were available. It would be professionally unethical for me to have done so.

I really only have one question. Why did you (SCORE) not anonymously release the code years ago? I understand wanting to deliver for the community as a whole but, that could still have happened with such a release.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 18, 2019, 04:31:02 PM
Anyone else kind of want a notice from the "wake me up when there is news" thread lol?

I'll talk to management because that's their baby, and NOBODY wants that to go off with a 'false alarm, sorry'.  But I think that might be equivalent in purpose.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 04:34:36 PM
All in all this is a time for absolute transparency going forward.

I agree - within reason - I won't debate data center choices for 7 pages or what the header page on the website will be at first. Some things have to be done at first just to get it moving. We can make changes later.

I hope it makes sense - get a server up - load test it and see where we are.

Get a website up so we can start to unwind character data with as much of an eye to privacy as we can.

Understand no one has account payment data - is was not needed to run the game - so start remembering some of the names of your characters because that may be how we can return them to you.

This is without a doubt the largest challenge of my life outside of raising kids. I cannot and will not be doing it alone. I will need help and so many things I am too ignorant to even ask the questions about let alone have the answers for.

It will be as above board as possible without risking people who don't want to be identified as having helped.

Oh yes, one more thing - all work will be done in such a way as to protect NCSoft's investment - it is THEIR GAME. Currently they don't have a working server they could sell. If this is done correctly we will be their willing steward to protect THEM. If this hurts your feelings towards NCSoft - I am sorry but this is non-negotiable.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: bugzee on April 18, 2019, 04:39:17 PM
There is still the legal question. I wouldn't be even thinking of setting up a public facing server at this time. If its true that the source was illegally handed off, that is a very serious problem. Its something I would want to distance myself from. Stolen IP is not something we really want to touch. I want to play the game, but I'm not willing to be fined or jailed over it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 18, 2019, 04:45:21 PM
Anyone else kind of want a notice from the "wake me up when there is news" thread lol?
It really should be if anything. To notify everyone with an account here and clear up everything. To let people know the code is now being scrubbed and to wait for that proof or whatever they plan to do. Maybe link a short part of that recording where it is being handed off for Scrubbing.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 18, 2019, 04:47:41 PM
Regarding my prior statement, that's a no on the "Wake Me" thread, but a different plan is in the works.  Stay tuned™.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 04:48:47 PM
There is still the legal question. I wouldn't be even thinking of setting up a public facing server at this time. If its true that the source was illegally handed off, that is a very serious problem. Its something I would want to distance myself from. Stolen IP is not something we really want to touch. I want to play the game, but I'm not willing to be fined or jailed over it.

I did not steal it and in fact have zero idea where the code I may receive is from other than hearsay. I can say the code is modified as powersets and development has occurred from the videos I have seen.

I have seen so many various rumors of what, how, where, when the code was released or came into being. I know many other private servers for other games have been setup - where did they get the code? If I act as a responsible steward for their game - not allowing a profit to be made and actively seek to get a buyer to purchase it from NCSoft and step away from it - other than a C&D letter - which I would comply to immediately, I can't see what risk - I am taking? I am not damaging the financial future of the product - it is closed. I am not seeking to make a profit or to harm NCSoft - in fact I want the opposite - to give them a fully functioning product they no longer have.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: starmage21 on April 18, 2019, 04:50:58 PM
The news:

A search for rental servers and the best data center to choose is about to begin (think Denver/Dallas).
Rental servers will be initially used because if we get a C&D letter getting stuck with selling $30k of servers would suck.

If you work in such an environment and would like us to consider you - let me know. I will be the fall guy for now and I am also looking for website hosting and development. Once that happens we can take the work away from TonyV's site and let him also be in peace. He has been of incredible value to us and our hopes still exist because of him.

This won't be a 1 day or 2 day fix - my goal is to try and have beta testing by 1 September 2019. It is the goal, but a lot of work needs to be done.


What do I aspire to? I would love to find a partner to hand all this over to and purchase rights to the game along with having the folks who worked on the updated graphics to see if they can merge that with the existing game. I hope if we can have the world ready an investor will make the effort to buy it from NCSoft.

I have no intention of making a profit from this and will post all banking details weekly or as expenses are occurred. Obviously at first I will be paying for it - I opened my mouth - I take the risk. Once it is running the costs will be known and can be budgeted for.

This is not a joke and is completely serious.

This post seems to carry the intention that you will start and help manage a server, and getting that up and running will take several months. It implies you have either received or know that you will receive a copy of the code and/or executable files. Have you?

We have been made aware that some scrubbing needs to happen to protect the original NCSoft Dev who leaked it, but otherwise the code should be hosted in a public place LONG before this couple of months it will take to host a functional private server. Are you aware of the status of that effort?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 04:52:02 PM
I did not steal it and in fact have zero idea where the code I may receive is from other than hearsay. I can say the code is modified as powersets and development has occurred from the videos I have seen.

I have seen so many various rumors of what, how, where, when the code was released or came into being. I know many other private servers for other games have been setup - where did they get the code? If I act as a responsible steward for their game - not allowing a profit to be made and actively seek to get a buyer to purchase it from NCSoft and step away from it - other than a C&D letter - which I would comply to immediately, I can't see what risk - I am taking? I am not damaging the financial future of the product - it is closed. I am not seeking to make a profit or to harm NCSoft - in fact I want the opposite - to give them a fully functioning product they no longer have.

:)

Can't you just tell Iron Wolf is 'back' in town?

*Xen Fulcrum-shift.

*smiles serenely.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 04:54:37 PM
I did not steal it and in fact have zero idea where the code I may receive is from other than hearsay. I can say the code is modified as powersets and development has occurred from the videos I have seen.

I have seen so many various rumors of what, how, where, when the code was released or came into being. I know many other private servers for other games have been setup - where did they get the code? If I act as a responsible steward for their game - not allowing a profit to be made and actively seek to get a buyer to purchase it from NCSoft and step away from it - other than a C&D letter - which I would comply to immediately, I can't see what risk - I am taking? I am not damaging the financial future of the product - it is closed. I am not seeking to make a profit or to harm NCSoft - in fact I want the opposite - to give them a fully functioning product they no longer have.

You being involved is extremely relieving, I know a lot of people don't have much trust left but Iron Wolf is certainly deserving of trust. I hope everyone can see that and don't give you a hard time. Thanks for following through my man.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: kiario on April 18, 2019, 04:56:11 PM
The news:

A search for rental servers and the best data center to choose is about to begin (think Denver/Dallas).
Rental servers will be initially used because if we get a C&D letter getting stuck with selling $30k of servers would suck.

If you work in such an environment and would like us to consider you - let me know. I will be the fall guy for now and I am also looking for website hosting and development. Once that happens we can take the work away from TonyV's site and let him also be in peace. He has been of incredible value to us and our hopes still exist because of him.

This won't be a 1 day or 2 day fix - my goal is to try and have beta testing by 1 September 2019. It is the goal, but a lot of work needs to be done.


What do I aspire to? I would love to find a partner to hand all this over to and purchase rights to the game along with having the folks who worked on the updated graphics to see if they can merge that with the existing game. I hope if we can have the world ready an investor will make the effort to buy it from NCSoft.

I have no intention of making a profit from this and will post all banking details weekly or as expenses are occurred. Obviously at first I will be paying for it - I opened my mouth - I take the risk. Once it is running the costs will be known and can be budgeted for.

This is not a joke and is completely serious.

Dont forget to get connections in Europe for a server there also ;)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 04:56:44 PM
I trust Ironwolf no questions asked. I also trust TonyV and Titan Network.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 04:57:09 PM
Regarding my prior statement, that's a no on the "Wake Me" thread, but a different plan is in the works.  Stay tuned™.

Interesting.

Staying tuned (TM.)

*Waits patiently.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 04:58:07 PM
I trust Ironwolf no questions asked. I also trust TonyV and Titan Network.

Amen.

Well said, Nicoliy.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MegaWatt on April 18, 2019, 05:00:26 PM
*sits quietly and makes a list of characters* if can get them backi would be so happy.....but by the same token there are so many NEW ones i want to make!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 05:01:57 PM
*sits quietly and makes a list of characters* if can get them backi would be so happy.....but by the same token there are so many NEW ones i want to make!

I'd love for my old ones to come home, but for playing I'd be rolling new toons.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 05:02:51 PM
This post seems to carry the intention that you will start and help manage a server, and getting that up and running will take several months. It implies you have either received or know that you will receive a copy of the code and/or executable files. Have you?

We have been made aware that some scrubbing needs to happen to protect the original NCSoft Dev who leaked it, but otherwise the code should be hosted in a public place LONG before this couple of months it will take to host a functional private server. Are you aware of the status of that effort?

I am researching the best place and type of servers to use, yes. The transfer of code won't be discussed by me. I have zero reliable sources for how the code was obtained. I have had limited conversation with Leandro since 6 am this morning and not before.

I can say on a stack of bible's that prior to this week I was unaware of a private server and would not have joined if I knew. I say a couple months - because I work a full time job and it would be a conflict of interest for me to try and handle something like this while working. I retire 30th August 2019. I hope then that by September 1st we can have something to open with as a load test. I have no idea what day one will look like other than total chaos. It would not be fair to my current employer or the game to do both things.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 05:03:42 PM
I agree - within reason - I won't debate data center choices for 7 pages or what the header page on the website will be at first. Some things have to be done at first just to get it moving. We can make changes later.

I hope it makes sense - get a server up - load test it and see where we are.

Get a website up so we can start to unwind character data with as much of an eye to privacy as we can.

Understand no one has account payment data - is was not needed to run the game - so start remembering some of the names of your characters because that may be how we can return them to you.

This is without a doubt the largest challenge of my life outside of raising kids. I cannot and will not be doing it alone. I will need help and so many things I am too ignorant to even ask the questions about let alone have the answers for.

It will be as above board as possible without risking people who don't want to be identified as having helped.

Oh yes, one more thing - all work will be done in such a way as to protect NCSoft's investment - it is THEIR GAME. Currently they don't have a working server they could sell. If this is done correctly we will be their willing steward to protect THEM. If this hurts your feelings towards NCSoft - I am sorry but this is non-negotiable.

That sounds like a reasonable plan to me.  Recognising the challenges ahead.

Inclusive.  Discrete.  Ample opportunity for people to get their characters back if they can remember their names (more than many could have wished for...)

And your last paragraph is noteworthy.  Fair's fair.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 18, 2019, 05:12:07 PM
The news:

A search for rental servers and the best data center to choose is about to begin (think Denver/Dallas).
Rental servers will be initially used because if we get a C&D letter getting stuck with selling $30k of servers would suck.

If you work in such an environment and would like us to consider you - let me know. I will be the fall guy for now and I am also looking for website hosting and development. Once that happens we can take the work away from TonyV's site and let him also be in peace. He has been of incredible value to us and our hopes still exist because of him.

This won't be a 1 day or 2 day fix - my goal is to try and have beta testing by 1 September 2019. It is the goal, but a lot of work needs to be done.


What do I aspire to? I would love to find a partner to hand all this over to and purchase rights to the game along with having the folks who worked on the updated graphics to see if they can merge that with the existing game. I hope if we can have the world ready an investor will make the effort to buy it from NCSoft.

I have no intention of making a profit from this and will post all banking details weekly or as expenses are occurred. Obviously at first I will be paying for it - I opened my mouth - I take the risk. Once it is running the costs will be known and can be budgeted for.

This is not a joke and is completely serious.

It's super awesome that you're thinking about running a private server and all... do you have anybody lined up with remotely the technical chops to put this thing together and make it work if you get the code and data from a public dump?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: lobster on April 18, 2019, 05:13:53 PM
I have been following these forums (and everywhere else I could) for years...but this is the first time in ages I've felt like posting.  But I've been feeling a lot of things lately.

But it looks like the code is getting out...and once that threshold is crossed, and multiple copies exist...crazy. 

Anyway, if you need any help that a sysadmin/IT type could provide, let me know Ironwolf.  I've got a full time job and family too, but if anything is worth finding some time for, it's CoH/X.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 18, 2019, 05:14:46 PM
I'm almost afraid to even hope to play again but... this turn of events actually seems promising! I'll be watching with great interest!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 18, 2019, 05:21:52 PM
Regarding my prior statement, that's a no on the "Wake Me" thread, but a different plan is in the works.  Stay tuned™.

Private Server Meets World?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 05:26:24 PM
I am also a system admin and so some of the stuff I can do - some of it not so much.

This is not going to happen overnight. I literally don't have enough time - but I can get it started. No, I don't want ANY money. This is NOT a cash grab. I will fund the start up - if any lawsuit or letter is filed if not profit has occurred I would be unlikely to faced a criminal proceeding or a civil one since no damages were done - in fact the opposite as NCSoft does not have a currently working COH server.

I also would be happy to freely give them the work done to maintain it or develop it for them.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: bugzee on April 18, 2019, 05:31:36 PM
Potential legal issues aside, I would hope that if the code is released, it will not just be to one other person, but to the public domain instead. Let it out for the world to have so that it can never be shut down again. At least let people have a go at running their own if they so desire.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 05:35:29 PM

Sorry Tony, I know I promised I'd never bring this back to this forum, and please stop throwing yourself in front of buses to defend me.

*****

Then I was diagnosed with severe thyroid issues that left me unable to concentrate on anything for months. Life gets in the way.

Then suddenly, six years had passed.

I know the community is hurt and it's my fault. I am moving as fast as I can to try to make things better, but I can't make instantly get everything ready. I have not slept since my phone was published on Monday at 2am and notifications haven't stopped ringing since then.

Please. Have patience. I am only human. And I am trying really hard to keep almost 3539 people from being harrassed and threatened as I have been for the last 4 days.

Yes, almost 3539 people. Because many of them are not around anymore. And every single one of them is a reminder of my failure to make this work.

Leandro.  Your health and people are more important than 'a game.'  And the loss of people over the last 6 years...

Put the loss of CoH into perspective and the gargantuan strains to bring it back in a way that is worthy of the community and beyond the frustrations of the developer's spaghetti code.  (See Codewalker's stunning work on the PC Super bases.)

Most rational people will know that you, Codewalker, the team of Score and Tony V have tried to act honourably.

We have Icon, Paragon Chat and the extensive 'done for free' work done on 'The Third Project' to thank for their safe guarding and due diligence.  Without it?

All would be lost.  So in that sense, I'll offer my own debt of gratitude to Leandro, Codewalker and Tony.  For?  Keeping the dream alive and a place to call home meantime.

I'm happy that 'the team' were working towards a reverse emulated server (or rather 'equivalent' that worked better knowing the perfectionist Codewalker...).  The game is alive.  It's been preserved for eventual release.

Personally, I never doubted your or Codewalker's efforts.  It was plain to see.  I have enjoyed your extensive public relations work, especially the stunning work on 'The Wharf' with added Statesman.  A piece of work worthy of the original developers themselves.

Regardless of 'this leak' I trusted your judgement.  Nothing has changed for me, except that I have the sheer joy of the impossible is now possible.

Many things in life don't happen as fast as we'd like.  And time passes.  (I understand that as well as anyone.)  And yes, we lose people along the way who we wish could share in our celebrations as we move forward.

It's not like we never had the game.  I played it.  I enjoyed it like no other.

CoH's legacy is in safe hands.  If Score/Leandro/Codewalker (or whoever serves as intermediary...) chooses to pass 'a torch' (eg. A part of what they're working on...) to Iron Wolf?  So be it.  It's there call.  But I don't want Leandro or anyone else going to jail for 'good intentions.'  It's 'okay for someone like me to cheer leader' from the sides without copping the fall out in legal terms, criminal prosecution or jail time.  Words are easy.  Actions are harder.

The leak, unfortunate as it was, it a cause for celebration.  'It's alive.'

Instead of being 'ungrateful' because I wasn't invited to the secret server, I take a different point of view.  If we value what we fight for.  If the cause is 'just.'  I won't grudge people who didn't have long to live to enjoy it with their friends or lambast a sick guy who cares for his dogs. 

My glass is definitely 'very full' right now.

We should rally with messages of support and any help we can offer.  This is the chance we've been waiting for to step as a community.  The chance we didn't really have when the rug was pulled from under us.

Take care, Leandro. 

Your health is more important than 'an old game' (much loved though it is.)

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 05:39:32 PM
Potential legal issues aside, I would hope that if the code is released, it will not just be to one other person, but to the public domain instead. Let it out for the world to have so that it can never be shut down again. At least let people have a go at running their own if they so desire.

 8)

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 05:41:50 PM
Potential legal issues aside, I would hope that if the code is released, it will not just be to one other person, but to the public domain instead. Let it out for the world to have so that it can never be shut down again. At least let people have a go at running their own if they so desire.

I won't allow myself to be the only person who carries the future. I hope however to be one with the "official" version that will abide by the law and will seek not to make money but to find a buyer.

I can't stress it enough - I want to protect NCSoft's investment and to find a buyer who will respect the property and develop it. If I win the lottery - I will do it - but I am just a simple guy getting ready to retire. Hell, my vehicles are a 2012 Lincoln MKX and a 1993 Chevy Silverado for hauling wood and working on the farm.

I have a pension and in 18 months social security - I want to move the ball - that's it. This is my play I hope another receiver gets called and runs with it later.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: SilverAgeFan on April 18, 2019, 05:42:20 PM
I am also a system admin and so some of the stuff I can do - some of it not so much.

This is not going to happen overnight. I literally don't have enough time - but I can get it started. No, I don't want ANY money. This is NOT a cash grab. I will fund the start up - if any lawsuit or letter is filed if not profit has occurred I would be unlikely to faced a criminal proceeding or a civil one since no damages were done - in fact the opposite as NCSoft does not have a currently working COH server.

I also would be happy to freely give them the work done to maintain it or develop it for them.

A general word of advice that a colleague passed along to me...

"When you start organizing something new that you believe in, from day one, you should also be preparing for your exit and how to pass along management of what you've created."

This was in relation to real world systems organizing within the arts, public institutions, activist ventures, etc. But it is true here, too. Time comes for all things.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nightmarer on April 18, 2019, 05:43:27 PM
Ooooh, I have the perfect name for a pantsless character... I'm hoping there will be a pantsless SG, right?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 05:44:12 PM
I am also a system admin and so some of the stuff I can do - some of it not so much.

This is not going to happen overnight. I literally don't have enough time - but I can get it started. No, I don't want ANY money. This is NOT a cash grab. I will fund the start up - if any lawsuit or letter is filed if not profit has occurred I would be unlikely to faced a criminal proceeding or a civil one since no damages were done - in fact the opposite as NCSoft does not have a currently working COH server.

I also would be happy to freely give them the work done to maintain it or develop it for them.

I trust you, Iron Wolf.  ;)

Be nice if NC could understand where the community is coming from.  It's an old game.  We DON"T want to profit from it.  We just want to play a game EVEN they don't have a working server for (I'm shocked if that is the case...)

Ironic.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 05:45:44 PM
Private Server Meets World?

The 'Hydrogen' release...?

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 05:46:36 PM
I trust you, Iron Wolf.  ;)

Be nice if NC could understand where the community is coming from.  It's an old game.  We DON"T want to profit from it.  We just want to play a game EVEN they don't have a working server for (I'm shocked if that is the case...)

Ironic.

Azrael.

During the sale talks earlier NCSoft did not know if they had the code for the game. It was mothballed on closure. I wasn't told if they found more but they don't have a server running right now.
Well, I want someone to profit from the game so they can keep it rolling - just not me :)

I am picking this up to start it I hope someone else finds the desire to finish it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 18, 2019, 05:47:21 PM
I'm almost afraid to even hope to play again but... this turn of events actually seems promising! I'll be watching with great interest!

I'm feeling the same feels. But, I do think we've got some things working in our favor this time around.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 05:49:08 PM
So, no surprise, Leandro is, after all, one of the guys who's most been helping and supporting CoH players and community for years both before and after the shutdown. 

What we know now. 

This IS the original I24 Beta server code leaked anonymously over a period of several days before the shutdown.  The code as he received it is full of timestamps that would allow ID-ing the person who leaked who specifically requested he not publish without scrubbing.  He has been trying to scrub/rewrite but it's very slow going. The player character database was separately sent him anonymously but also contains time information that would allow id-ing the source. 

The game is every bit as much a mess as we've always heard. The "server" is a set of custom boxes running old software versions and talking to each other in specific timing sequences.  The ExCel spreadsheets that the Devs used have been reworked into something more usable.  He has a loose team of roughly 5 who have been able to get the thing running and keep it functional while they work to improve it. The last time anybody but him saved a change was 10 months ago.

At least one other person has a DIFFERENT copy of the source code, not from the same leak.

Interesting.  More than one leak.  Not surprising.  Clearly the developers cared so much, the community cared and SCORE cared to not let this unique community game go gently into the dark.

A good overview, OhioKnight.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 05:51:28 PM
Interesting.  More than one leak.  Not surprising.  Clearly the developers cared so much, the community cared and SCORE cared to not let this unique community game go gently into the dark.

A good overview, OhioKnight.

Azrael.

That's why I can honestly say other than hearsay, I don't know the source of the code they have - it seems as much of a jumble as the code itself.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 05:53:59 PM
The news:

A search for rental servers and the best data center to choose is about to begin (think Denver/Dallas).
Rental servers will be initially used because if we get a C&D letter getting stuck with selling $30k of servers would suck.

If you work in such an environment and would like us to consider you - let me know. I will be the fall guy for now and I am also looking for website hosting and development. Once that happens we can take the work away from TonyV's site and let him also be in peace. He has been of incredible value to us and our hopes still exist because of him.

This won't be a 1 day or 2 day fix - my goal is to try and have beta testing by 1 September 2019. It is the goal, but a lot of work needs to be done.


What do I aspire to? I would love to find a partner to hand all this over to and purchase rights to the game along with having the folks who worked on the updated graphics to see if they can merge that with the existing game. I hope if we can have the world ready an investor will make the effort to buy it from NCSoft.

I have no intention of making a profit from this and will post all banking details weekly or as expenses are occurred. Obviously at first I will be paying for it - I opened my mouth - I take the risk. Once it is running the costs will be known and can be budgeted for.

This is not a joke and is completely serious.

Thank you for stepping up, Iron Wolf.

This is what the Coh Community can do.  We can each carry a torch of support and help in what way we can.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 06:05:26 PM
Thank you for stepping up, Iron Wolf.

This is what the Coh Community can do.  We can each carry a torch of support and help in what way we can.

Azrael.

Well said. 
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 18, 2019, 06:09:01 PM
If you work in such an environment and would like us to consider you - let me know. I will be the fall guy for now and I am also looking for website hosting and development. Once that happens we can take the work away from TonyV's site and let him also be in peace. He has been of incredible value to us and our hopes still exist because of him.

This won't be a 1 day or 2 day fix - my goal is to try and have beta testing by 1 September 2019. It is the goal, but a lot of work needs to be done.

If there's any help you need at all, please let me know.

I would be willing to give personal information as security to be a part of helping if there's any slots open on this. I'm self employed at the moment, so I have a lot of free time myself, and this community matters to me :)

I don't want the original dev who may or may not have leaked it to suffer, and I just want us all to be able to play.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 06:19:56 PM
If there's any help you need at all, please let me know.

I would be willing to give personal information as security to be a part of helping if there's any slots open on this. I'm self employed at the moment, so I have a lot of free time myself, and this community matters to me :)

I don't want the original dev who may or may not have leaked it to suffer, and I just want us all to be able to play.

I won't be doing this secretly - unless people don't want information shared. This will be above board as possible. The initial decisions - yes. Once it's online by then we will have a website and forums set up. The details will be on that site once built.

I just got the word at 6am today, time to plan and research - then get started.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 06:23:57 PM
Do we have any firm idea of how much NCSoft wanted for the rights in the previous negotiations?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 18, 2019, 06:28:48 PM
I won't be doing this secretly - unless people don't want information shared. This will be above board as possible. The initial decisions - yes. Once it's online by then we will have a website and forums set up. The details will be on that site once built.

I just got the word at 6am today, time to plan and research - then get started.

Do you intend to share the code around? Because a lot of us are kindof anxious about few points of failure. I've been watching you for awhile and you seem pretty above board, there's just a lot of concerns about another person getting defacto power :)

Again, anything you need done, someone to do the legwork contacting people with specific details, let me know. I'm happy to be a part of things if I can help get the game back to a playable state for all of us, and not just a special select few.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Artillerie on April 18, 2019, 06:34:15 PM
What a lot of ups and downs over the last handful of days, it's all quite an experience by itself.

Hoping for the best here and good luck to all involved in whatever it is that's happening at the moment. Just don't forget we Europeans please :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 06:35:43 PM
Do you intend to share the code around? Because a lot of us are kindof anxious about few points of failure. I've been watching you for awhile and you seem pretty above board, there's just a lot of concerns about another person getting defacto power :)

Again, anything you need done, someone to do the legwork contacting people with specific details, let me know. I'm happy to be a part of things if I can help get the game back to a playable state for all of us, and not just a special select few.

I am not distributing the code. That isn't my place. I want a single thing - to make the server that encourages a developer to buy the game and make money for them and therefore keeping the game alive by getting NCSoft to sell it.

Simple mission statement right there.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 06:38:16 PM
Do we have any firm idea of how much NCSoft wanted for the rights in the previous negotiations?

That would be an interesting question to answer.

Aka.  If the community could kickstarter the amount needed to secure the IP to be open license held by the community?

Leandro.  Codewalker.  (Other members of SCORE) Tony V.  Ironwolf. 

They're torch bearers. 

In the above scenario, though we can't code, we could offer 'our' help to bring the IP to the community and take the 'risk' out of it.  We could all be 'torch bearers' and help bring the IP legitimately to the coh community.  We'd ALL 'own' it.

Again.  Depends on 'if' can 'reason' with corporations. 

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 18, 2019, 06:41:59 PM
This only feels marginally better than where we were before :(

I appreciate that being a goal, but I can't be the only one who doesn't want there to only be two people holding the code. This game should belong to the community at this point, not a company.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 06:45:42 PM
We need more than two people with the keys to the kingdom so we don't face /another/ situation of someone "getting it ready" for six years (expect for their friends)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 06:47:16 PM
I am not distributing the code. That isn't my place. I want a single thing - to make the server that encourages a developer to buy the game and make money for them and therefore keeping the game alive by getting NCSoft to sell it.

Simple mission statement right there.

Hopefully in such a scenario, that a 'developer' acts in the way that Linux distros do that allow you to run your own version of the server OS. 

Ie.  I could run a 'private' server ergo play solo, P2P, LAN or a more significant population server.

What we don't want is the 'same scenario' as the NC one where by if it's not going to make a lot of money (and I don't think it will...) or isn't pleasing shareholders or if it gets 'personal' it gets shut down, again.

Either way, a brave first step taken by you, Ironwolf.

And from creativity and constructive and balanced action many opportunities for the CoH community can arise.  Even, for example, Atlas Park Revival, patching it with 'improved' graphics or map creators or power mods or mission creators. 

While this is all very exciting, it still doesn't exclude the possibility, of the 'reverse' emulation (or 'equivalent' server work) continuing in addition.  It doesn't mean that SCORE's work stops.  I don't see such a scenario.  I've been fully expecting a playing server from Argentina ;)  for years now.  There's no way all that reverse engineering work goes in the bin.  They've clearly made plenty of progress.  This 'leak' doesn't invalidate anything or any successor projects progress.  I hope to see what Leandro, Codewalker (and SCORE) have been working on.  eg. Map creators and mission creators tease the imagination and take the game beyond what we know and allow the community (who was partly bored with the original...) to create their own content and push the game onwards.  They haven't explicitly said that(?) but from bits and pieces said, and the sheer vigilance on the SG bases of Paragon Chat we can dare to imagine a CoH +1.

That may take a bit longer but I still look forward to seeing it.  'The leak' may take a bit of the pressure off them and the CoH community demanding they are the 'ones' that deliver it.

But they have preserved teh legacy for us to enjoy.  We must remember that.  Without that leak to them.  Without their work?  No Icon.  No Paragon Chat.  No 'Secret Server' to push the reverse emulation effort forwards.  No 'server' to enjoy at all.  It took a lot of risk to do all that.  It wasn't risk free.  It took guts to do Icon, to do Paragon Chat and wait for the NC nerf bat.

This 'server' passing of the torch.  Is the first real challenge for the CoH community since shut down.  We may well be careful of the phrase, 'Be careful for what you wish for...'

In fact, it's a challenge to the whole community to press forwards.  The CoH community will have choices. 

There's still SEGS, Ship of Heroes, Heroes and Villains, Titans etc.

That's the beauty.

This can be touch point that really gets things going.  This thread hasn't been this busy or alive for a while.  And whilst the manner of the leak may be upsetting to some.

It's an opportunity for all.  It can release the burden for some.  Other's can help share the burden.

At the very least.  It should be an interesting game of whack a mole.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 06:47:56 PM
I won't beat around the bush - when you have one cow and the village owns it - everyone wants the milk but no one wants to feed the cow and it dies.

I want an owner to run the game - take responsibility for developing it and perhaps start a CoH2 in the future. I don't want wild servers everywhere with a 10 player population and watch it starve to death with no marketing or publicity.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Aurora on April 18, 2019, 06:52:49 PM
This approach makes a c&d super effective. Ncsoft applauds your efforts!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kistulot on April 18, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
I won't beat around the bush - when you have one cow and the village owns it - everyone wants the milk but no one wants to feed the cow and it dies.

I want an owner to run the game - take responsibility for developing it and perhaps start a CoH2 in the future. I don't want wild servers everywhere with a 10 player population and watch it starve to death with no marketing or publicity.

You have never lived in a village with a cow.

Look at Leandro's server. It was funded by a small group of people. Like, look at the evidence that we have?

I'm sorry, clearly you can do what you want and I can't stop you, but your cynicism and your desire to do things "the right way" put us all but right back where we started, and you're even wanting to paint a red bullseye on your back.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 06:56:58 PM
C&D aside, the more people that have it the better for trust and transparency. Something that has been severely lacking in the half a decade Leo has been the sole holder of it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 07:02:56 PM
This approach makes a c&d super effective. Ncsoft applauds your efforts!

I can only give the facts and purposes of any server I create.

I am not going to lie to anyone. I am blunt and to the point. If you want secrecy go talk to SCoRE and i don't mean that as a knock - it is what they did for 6 years. I am being as open as humanly possible from day 1.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 07:03:48 PM
You have never lived in a village with a cow.

Look at Leandro's server. It was funded by a small group of people. Like, look at the evidence that we have?

I'm sorry, clearly you can do what you want and I can't stop you, but your cynicism and your desire to do things "the right way" put us all but right back where we started, and you're even wanting to paint a red bullseye on your back.

At some point.  Somebody has a bullseye on their back.

The 'leaker?'  SCORE for receiving the leak.  SCORE for putting out Icon or Paragon Chat.  And working on reverse engineering to make it 'more' legal.

Or Iron Wolf?

He's got the guts to give it a go. 

I have complete faith in his intentions.  Let's get this this up and running. 

And we'll have our answer from NC soon enough.  Silence?  Or Legal rebuttal.

As I have in SCORE.  I commend their work in getting us THIS far and for the work they're probably still going to continue.

Along with the successor parties.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 07:06:47 PM
You have never lived in a village with a cow.

Look at Leandro's server. It was funded by a small group of people. Like, look at the evidence that we have?

I'm sorry, clearly you can do what you want and I can't stop you, but your cynicism and your desire to do things "the right way" put us all but right back where we started, and you're even wanting to paint a red bullseye on your back.

I don't understand why I am cynical? A small hobby server for you and your friends will likely be possible in the near future. I want more than that and trying to find a legal owner and to treat NCSoft's product with care is cynical? I really don't understand what you mean. It's ok - I clearly laid out my goals and intents. This is what I meant by some things won't be secret but also not up for debate.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 18, 2019, 07:12:22 PM
I don't understand why I am cynical? A small hobby server for you and your friends will likely be possible in the near future. I want more than that and trying to find a legal owner and to treat NCSoft's product with care is cynical? I really don't understand what you mean. It's ok - I clearly laid out my goals and intents. This is what I meant by some things won't be secret but also not up for debate.

Ironwolf I have always respected you and I hope you do get something going and yes I do hope that someone can then step in and buy the game from NCSoft.

However NCsoft hasn't wanted to sell the game before, but we shall see.

That being said though.......I would want the code to be scrubbed to keep the leaker's ID secret....but THEN I would want the code distributed to file download sites and CoH fans can download it, and even if they can't get a private server of their own running, they still HAVE the code, can keep it safe in external back up drives and cloud storage so that if NCSoft goes on a legal rampage and shuts servers down, the code is still out there....

Just like how the seed was distributed at the end of the first Sword Art Online anime and thus games popped up everywhere, or as they said in Serenity "Can't stop the signal"

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 07:12:56 PM
I won't beat around the bush - when you have one cow and the village owns it - everyone wants the milk but no one wants to feed the cow and it dies.


I remember your original posts about making this a community game.  There is the possibility that the 'community' mods it.

eg.  The work of SEGs.

Ergo, you get a lot of cows. 

Modding is now a key element of the more advanced communities using 3D engines.  That use a core 3d engine and the community mods the graphics or the whole game.

As you can probably tell, I don't have a lot of faith in corporations who gave us little room for reply before shutting down.

However, it's still their (NC's) IP and they will get their chance.  We'll see if they really want to 'crack the American market' or punish the rump of what's left of the CoH community.

That won't stop SCORE's unholy war to preserve the game.

Leandro's copped a bit of heat.  I don't see why.  It's a legacy preserved.  And if he's passed it on? 

It's given us this opportunity. 

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 07:13:45 PM
To Ironwolf, et al, I say...Bonne Chance. 

To other CoH fans, we may be closer to getting the game back than we've ever been...even excluding the news about the secret emulator.

I have here a film released by SEGs just a week ago.  It shows a character flying about through their world...and reveals mobs spawning on all of their maps.  In my opinion, they are just an eyelash away from having a functioning street-sweeping game.  All that is needed is functioning AI and combat system.

In addition, it would not surprise me if the admin who gave the server code to Leando also gave it to others. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlFCcANj6u4
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 07:13:59 PM
That link is to a file that is only about 470MB to download and I am not downloading it.

That's how you get your computer sick.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 18, 2019, 07:14:57 PM
Here's a question: if this is the i-24 beta prior to shut down code,    what about the player database?  Was it the beta-test server player character database or is it the live server?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 18, 2019, 07:16:53 PM
To Ironwolf, et al, I say...Bonne Chance. 

To other CoH fans, we may be closer to getting the game back than we've ever been...even excluding the news about the secret emulator.

I have here a film released by SEGs just a week ago.  It shows a character flying about through their world...and reveals mobs spawning on all of their maps.  In my opinion, they are just an eyelash away from having a functioning street-sweeping game.  All that is needed is functioning AI and combat system.

In addition, it would not surprise me if the admin who gave the server code to Leando also gave it to others. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlFCcANj6u4

Indeed, this code leak could be a boon for SEGS.

While they cannot plagiarize the CoH code, they could still study the code and say "So THAT's how they did that! okay team, how can we recode this from scratch using their code as a blueprint without directly copying it?"

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 18, 2019, 07:17:32 PM
That link is to a file that is only about 470MB to download and I am not downloading it.
I've never worked on a code project of this scale before and I have not unpacked anything from the archive, but what I'm looking at in 7zip does look plausibly like source code for many game server parts. (There are C-language code files and .h files among other things.)

There us a txt in the root that references the poll that Bree Royce posted on MassivelyOP to confirm it is current.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 18, 2019, 07:17:58 PM
I don't understand why I am cynical? A small hobby server for you and your friends will likely be possible in the near future. I want more than that and trying to find a legal owner and to treat NCSoft's product with care is cynical? I really don't understand what you mean. It's ok - I clearly laid out my goals and intents. This is what I meant by some things won't be secret but also not up for debate.

Yeah what your planning is only going to result in ncsoft saying thanks and  shutting it down. It is 100% guaranteed. You can’t make a business proposal with for something stolen rofl. Don’t purposely say Here we are. Just host it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 18, 2019, 07:24:29 PM
Massively's latest

https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/18/whats-going-on-with-city-of-heroes-now-this-game-is-a-unicorn/
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 07:25:53 PM
Yeah what your planning is only going to result in ncsoft saying thanks and  shutting it down. It is 100% guaranteed. You can’t make a business proposal with for something stolen rofl. Don’t purposely say Here we are. Just host it.

Maybe....but maybe not.  NC may think "Aw chit...the cat is out of the bag, and the code is being destributed endlessly across the internet.  Fighting this isn't worth the trouble anymore."  Maybe.  The whole thing is balanced on the edge of a knife...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on April 18, 2019, 07:27:45 PM
I did not steal it and in fact have zero idea where the code I may receive is from other than hearsay. I can say the code is modified as powersets and development has occurred from the videos I have seen.

I have seen so many various rumors of what, how, where, when the code was released or came into being. I know many other private servers for other games have been setup - where did they get the code? If I act as a responsible steward for their game - not allowing a profit to be made and actively seek to get a buyer to purchase it from NCSoft and step away from it - other than a C&D letter - which I would comply to immediately, I can't see what risk - I am taking? I am not damaging the financial future of the product - it is closed. I am not seeking to make a profit or to harm NCSoft - in fact I want the opposite - to give them a fully functioning product they no longer have.

I am no lawyer, with that said, I think as long as its donations and not subs. Should be fine. This is going by board games such as Kickstarter. Ip owners shouldn't care as long as its not making money.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 07:29:48 PM
To Ironwolf, et al, I say...Bonne Chance. 

To other CoH fans, we may be closer to getting the game back than we've ever been...even excluding the news about the secret emulator.

I have here a film released by SEGs just a week ago.  It shows a character flying about through their world...and reveals mobs spawning on all of their maps.  In my opinion, they are just an eyelash away from having a functioning street-sweeping game.  All that is needed is functioning AI and combat system.

In addition, it would not surprise me if the admin who gave the server code to Leando also gave it to others. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlFCcANj6u4

Yes.  Saw that video.  Tantalising.

Good to see the 'actors' in place. ;)

It's now a case of 'when' the game comes back.

Not if.

That burden no longer falls on one person, one group...

...and THAT is good news.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 07:31:00 PM
Maybe....but maybe not.  NC may think "Aw chit...the cat is out of the bag, and the code is being destributed endlessly across the internet.  Fighting this isn't worth the trouble anymore."  Maybe.  The whole thing is balanced on the edge of a knife...

Yes.  We'll have to see.

But if NC Soft are going to 'take down' Iron Wolf. 

Let them try.

I don't fancy their chances.  ;)

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 18, 2019, 07:32:38 PM
I am no lawyer, with that said, I think as long as its donations and not subs. Should be fine. This is going by board games such as Kickstarter. Ip owners shouldn't care as long as its not making money.

I think that's the bit that got Nostralious for Private WoW.

They were doing fine (only 1 million players at peak...) who were playing Vanilla.

But then, not entirely sure, money started exchanging hands for 'some things' and THEN Blizzard went after them...

But.  It brought Blizzard to the table...  And Vanilla wow is now 'a thing.'

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: kiario on April 18, 2019, 07:39:22 PM
The code is apparently out. Red on reddit that npc and mission data could be out tomorrow if i understood correctly.
Now someone had to write a guide how to start the game for solo play :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 18, 2019, 07:40:19 PM
I know what I am doing tonight............
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 18, 2019, 07:44:00 PM
And Red Light!

Green light.  Titan Network will not host or hold links to downloads like this.  Ever. 

Carry on.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nightmarer on April 18, 2019, 08:08:17 PM
Whoah, seems everybody is downloading the code and setting up a solo server right now   8)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 08:11:17 PM
Whoah, seems everybody is downloading the code and setting up a solo server right now   8)

if only it was that easy. From everything I've read/heard you can't even do that on a general windows home pc. Maybe there's ways to do it single player or lan based, but that's way above anything I'd know. I'd have to be given crystal clear instructions to figure that out.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 18, 2019, 08:14:08 PM
Whoah, seems everybody is downloading the code and setting up a solo server right now   8)

I took a look at the files. I have a feeling its going to be at least a few months before we're actually playing anything.

I keep seeing people saying the hardware Leandro mentioned isn't necessary or that the costs shouldn't be as high as he said they were, but at the end of the day he seems to be the person with actual hands on experience with it. I hope the people claiming they can get a server up and running for us can actually do it as quickly and affordably as they claim, but its hard to get my hopes up that it will really happen any time soon.

I plan on keeping my expectations low so that I can be pleasantly surprised if someone really does pull it off quickly.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 18, 2019, 08:14:52 PM
https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/18/the-city-of-heroes-private-server-team-has-released-its-code-to-the-world-but-not-the-characters/

They released the server code, minus all missions and content.  Even if you get it running, it's as blank as Paragon Chat.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 08:16:33 PM
Man...events are moving fast.   :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 18, 2019, 08:18:37 PM
Massively's latest

https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/18/whats-going-on-with-city-of-heroes-now-this-game-is-a-unicorn/ (https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/18/whats-going-on-with-city-of-heroes-now-this-game-is-a-unicorn/)


If folks haven't figured it out by now,  City of Heroes is to massively what Princess Diana on the cover page is to Time magazine. Gotta milk that cow....


Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tubbius on April 18, 2019, 08:18:50 PM
Logging in to Paragon Chat for five minutes to get a final screen shot of Waddle the Penguin holding a torch left me emotionally gutted.

If this does indeed go live again at some point. . . Whoa.  :-)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 08:19:02 PM
https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/18/the-city-of-heroes-private-server-team-has-released-its-code-to-the-world-but-not-the-characters/

They released the server code, minus all missions and content.  Even if you get it running, it's as blank as Paragon Chat.

Undoubtedly....but I'd bet it won't be blank for long.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 18, 2019, 08:19:59 PM
https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/18/the-city-of-heroes-private-server-team-has-released-its-code-to-the-world-but-not-the-characters/ (https://massivelyop.com/2019/04/18/the-city-of-heroes-private-server-team-has-released-its-code-to-the-world-but-not-the-characters/)

They released the server code, minus all missions and content.  Even if you get it running, it's as blank as Paragon Chat.




Because that stuff belongs to ncsoft....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 08:22:52 PM
I'd also bet that missions and content will be released shortly.... :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 18, 2019, 08:27:49 PM
I've already mentioned it. 

Has something to do with healing your wounds.

It's a brighter future than we've had, I recommend embracing it.

Because that rift? You embrace that? Thanos.
Amen.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 18, 2019, 08:31:08 PM
I can't believe all of this is happening.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 08:34:16 PM
I can't believe all of this is happening.

I know what you mean.  For six years nothing....and then...all of a sudden...BOOM!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 08:34:42 PM
I truly did not believe we could go from the lows that we were seeing on Monday to the collaborative effort that we're seeing now, and the positivity. I do owe an apology to the people who called out my cynicism in the last couple of days, I didn't give this community the credit for being capable of the progress that I've seen so many other community fail on over the years of online gaming. I look forward to seeing where everything goes in the coming months.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Voltixdark on April 18, 2019, 08:35:36 PM
So I am curious.. Though everyone or some people will setup their own servers. Who will host the main server for the community. Like we have Paragon Chat for the whole community to join so I assume that the main host server and all will be hosted by Leandro? I am completely fine with that.

I am kind of asking that question because with the spread of the servers, I am not sure where I would land and stay to call home. From the info the leaker leaked, when they played everything character wise, enhancements, etc was exactly where it was before the game closed in 2012. So I am hoping that those things could still remain intact for others like me who still want access to their old account data and to continue where we left off.

Another thing though is that with the character database spread, Leandro mentioned that clean up or hashing of the character database would be required so other accounts would not be compromised. How would that work exactly? Say you have 100 people who want to get their old account data back how would that process go?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 08:36:51 PM
I've already mentioned it. 

Has something to do with healing your wounds.

It's a brighter future than we've had, I recommend embracing it.

Because that rift? You embrace that? Thanos.

Thanos didn't lose anyone. He was obsessed with balance. You're thinking of the MCU Zemo. Who broke up the avengers because his family was killed by Ultron.

If you're going to accuse everyone you don't like of being a murderous villain, get it right.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 18, 2019, 08:39:36 PM
I know what you mean.  For six years nothing....and then...all of a sudden...BOOM!

I know! Like, I'm super happy, don't get me wrong... but I'm almost too shocked to feel any second-tier emotions. Just pure, unequivocal shock is controlling my systems right now lol.

Also, is anyone else suddenly thinking of buying a new computer? Haha.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 08:41:23 PM
Thanos didn't lose anyone. He was obsessed with balance. You're thinking of the MCU Zemo. Who broke up the avengers because his family was killed by Ultron.

If you're going to accuse everyone you don't like of being a murderous villain, get it right.

Friendly advice:  Stop embracing the rift.

Also: People I don't like?  I like everyone, at least, I try to. 

My message... My wish... is that moving forward, we still have highs and lows to encounter.

Keep your capes ON. Do NOT attack each other.

Resist the rift. At all costs resist. It IS Thanos.  The comic book version. 

You should be able to understand my message.

Hugs.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 08:41:35 PM
I know! Like, I'm super happy, don't get me wrong... but I'm almost too shocked to feel any second-tier emotions. Just pure, unequivocal shock is controlling my systems right now lol.

Also, is anyone else suddenly thinking of buying a new computer? Haha.

Already building one, timing is nice. I'm watching the coders chat on discord while I work, interesting how fast they move.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 08:43:04 PM
Already building one, timing is nice. I'm watching the coders chat on discord while I work, interesting how fast they move.

Time is of the essence.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: therain93 on April 18, 2019, 08:44:43 PM
So I am curious.. Though everyone or some people will setup their own servers. Who will host the main server for the community. Like we have Paragon Chat for the whole community to join so I assume that the main host server and all will be hosted by Leandro? I am completely fine with that.

I am kind of asking that question because with the spread of the servers, I am not sure where I would land and stay to call home. From the info the leaker leaked, when they played everything character wise, enhancements, etc was exactly where it was before the game closed in 2012. So I am hoping that those things could still remain intact for others like me who still want access to their old account data and to continue where we left off.

Another thing though is that with the character database spread, Leandro mentioned that clean up or hashing of the character database would be required so other accounts would not be compromised. How would that work exactly? Say you have 100 people who want to get their old account data back how would that process go?


It will probably self-organize, much like swgemu, with some  different flavors.   Expect to potentially hop around as new servers pop up, but likely the first technically savvy group to organize and implement a stable game will win the race to collecting dollars... kind of like city of titans snagging kick starter dollars.  If server maintenance is pricey,  it will be hard to support too many across the population of interested,  committed players.


Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 08:48:02 PM
Friendly advice:  Stop embracing the rift.

Also: People I don't like?  I like everyone, at least, I try to. 

My message... My wish... is that moving forward, we still have highs and lows to encounter.

Keep your capes ON. Do NOT attack each other.

Resist the rift. At all costs resist. It IS Thanos.  The comic book version. 

You should be able to understand my message.

Hugs.

Comic book thanos was romantically interested in the concept/avatar of death, and sought out the infinity gauntlet to kill half the universe for her and her love.

You're still thinking of Zemo. Like the exchange between Zemo and black panther is great. We shouldn't ignore it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 08:50:28 PM
Comic book thanos was romantically interested in the concept/avatar of death, and sought out the infinity gauntlet to kill half the universe for her and her love.

You're still thinking of Zemo. Like the exchange between Zemo and black panther is great. We shouldn't ignore it.

I changed my mind.

The rift shall now be known as my English 101 teacher.

A cold and callous creature with evil bane for skin and bitter malice for bones and organs.

Every day she would find herself yet again in that horrible state of being awake and thus believed the world should suffer for it.

Cracks left in the floor by her stilettos out of sheer spite.

And that red pen.  Damn that devil red pen. Concentrated hate.  Like a nightmare version of that Bill Cosby marker.

It made Freddy glove noises as she brutally assaulted her students papers.

Yeah. That fits.  That's the rift.  Run from the rift.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 08:56:38 PM
Quote
I've already mentioned it. 

Has something to do with healing your wounds.

It's a brighter future than we've had, I recommend embracing it.

Because that rift? You embrace that? Thanos.

Being told to stop being upset has never made anyone stop being upset in the history of mankind.   I agree now that Leo has spoken people can start healing.  But you need to let people heal their wounds on their own time.  It isn't just a snap of the fingers for some people. (Shit now im bringing up Thanos)

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tubbius on April 18, 2019, 08:58:16 PM
I changed my mind.

The rift shall now be known as my English 101 teacher.

You do know that I teach that course, yes? :-)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 09:02:59 PM
You do know that I teach that course, yes? :-)

I also know that Santa and Satan have the same letters in their names, they both wear red and black, they both only appear at night, and they are never seen together....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 18, 2019, 09:04:27 PM
...I will say, I still have one cautious eye on NCSoft. I think they're definitely aware of what's going on.

Is anyone else waiting on a move from them? Or am I the only one?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 09:05:28 PM
...I will say, I still have one cautious eye on NCSoft. I think they're definitely aware of what's going on.

Is anyone else waiting on a move from them? Or am I the only one?

I'm waiting.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: nicoliy on April 18, 2019, 09:06:27 PM
I'm sure NCSoft will at least issue a statement. How far down an actual path of going after Leo or new servers is anyone's guess I think.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 18, 2019, 09:08:11 PM
I'm sure NCSoft will at least issue a statement. How far down an actual path of going after Leo or new servers is anyone's guess I think.

Agreed.

It's making me anxious AF.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MM3squints on April 18, 2019, 09:14:52 PM
One thing that will make me wonder no just from NC Soft stand point, but also what happens when people start making Marvel and DC characters on these servers. I assume there won't be a ToS (because technically hold the code and running it is sketch enough) so would the house of mouse and WB come after these server too? On a lighter note, since there is going to be multiple servers, will Titans have a post listing the servers with population count and the quirks of the server?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 18, 2019, 09:19:18 PM
Being told to stop being upset has never made anyone stop being upset in the history of mankind.   I agree now that Leo has spoken people can start healing.  But you need to let people heal their wounds on their own time.  It isn't just a snap of the fingers for some people. (Shit now im bringing up Thanos)

Being real? I never said stop being upset. I don't expect people to "get over it"

I've been attacked, thwarted, disowned, and excommunicated by my blood relative family.

I know first hand that there is no such thing as "just get over it" because nobody ever just "gets over it". I'd never discredit someone's pain.

Healing takes time, so yeah, lets do whatever it takes to heal ourselves.

Heroes can be upset, heartbroken, in pain and still put on that cape and be heroes.

That's really what we all need to do, no matter how much it hurts now, or in the future.

We must steel ourselves for this incoming bumpy ride.

Breaking out the pitchforks and tearing into each other? That's easy.

Putting on the cape? Behaving like the community we SHOULD be? That's hard.

But it's what we should do.

That's why I say avoid the rift. She's a bitch.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: weenus on April 18, 2019, 09:23:41 PM
One thing that will make me wonder no just from NC Soft stand point, but also what happens when people start making Marvel and DC characters on these servers. I assume there won't be a ToS (because technically hold the code and running it is sketch enough) so would the house of mouse and WB come after these server too? On a lighter note, since there is going to be multiple servers, will Titans have a post listing the servers with population count and the quirks of the server?

Couldn't server owners just moderate that the same way that CoX, CO and DCUO have over the years? Name filters and the occasional deletion if the likeness is too close.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 18, 2019, 09:25:16 PM
Here's a question: if this is the i-24 beta prior to shut down code,    what about the player database?  Was it the beta-test server player character database or is it the live server?

There was an interview where Leandro described what it was, but there's so many articles now I don't want to put in the effort to find which one it was. Basically, the source downloaded all the character data, one live server at a time. It was noted that a lot of people were switching servers near shutdown time, so someone who switched servers at a poor time might not be on the downloaded data.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 18, 2019, 09:35:38 PM
Its a race to get something that works at this point. Once that os established we should vote on a top 3 list and make one our home server. Can use fakebook or something to do that poll. I know anything related to it will simply get deleted here.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 18, 2019, 09:41:09 PM
Its a race to get something that works at this point. Once that os established we should vote on a top 3 list and make one our home server. Can use fakebook or something to do that poll. I know anything related to it will simply get deleted here.

Agreed about the home server. Obviously beggers can't be choosers, but I dunno how I'd feel about there being, like, a million small servers out there ya'know? I'd rather us all be playing together in one big / centralized world.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 18, 2019, 09:45:26 PM
Just from the hardware and financial requirements I've seen bandied about, a bunch of smaller servers seems more realistic than only a few giant servers. A bunch of smaller servers is also "safer" too. The bigger a server is, the bigger a target it has on its back for NCSoft to shut it down.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 18, 2019, 09:46:35 PM
You think I have a condescending tone?

I think what you need to start doing is reading my posts in papa smurf's voice.
Papa Smurf was condescending as heck.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 09:46:49 PM
Agreed about the home server. Obviously beggers can't be choosers, but I dunno how I'd feel about there being, like, a million small servers out there ya'know? I'd rather us all be playing together in one big / centralized world.

Oh absolutely. People are going to congregate to the server that can hold the most people. So really, it's whoever can get a stable highpop server up first. And with the code now free to use It's a better shot of someone with the right hardware and knowhow than ever.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 18, 2019, 09:50:59 PM
The server code is, from what I understand, entirely NCSoft's, I24 edition - to the point that it contains literal instructions for the authserver to phone home to an NCSoft email if something goes wrong. SCoRE's server, as I understand it, is modified, but still relies upon NCSoft proprietary code. So if that's a problem for you, wait for SEGS/hypothetical other complete rewrite to finish, I guess.

It's possible you could see something soon, but I wouldn't bet on it - there's progress, but the code is still spaghetti. Leandro's said he'll set up a server if anyone has a spare physical machine lying around tonight, but that's modestly unlikely, and I suspect many of you would refuse to play on it. (Also, fwiw, launch day on any server is going to be like landing on Omaha Beach, except there's only one boat, and it's carrying 15-20k when it's meant to carry maybe 150-200. It's not going to be pretty at all.)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 10:04:23 PM
There's a large mountain to climb but we are infinitely closer than we were 4 days ago.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 18, 2019, 10:13:10 PM
Just from the hardware and financial requirements I've seen bandied about, a bunch of smaller servers seems more realistic than only a few giant servers. A bunch of smaller servers is also "safer" too. The bigger a server is, the bigger a target it has on its back for NCSoft to shut it down.

I suspect it will be some mid sized servers and many private secret servers
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Phocks on April 18, 2019, 10:14:46 PM
There's a large mountain to climb but we are infinitely closer than we were 4 days ago.


It's pretty amazing how sharing and being transparent has done more for the community in under a week than paranoia and gatekeeping has done in 5 years.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 18, 2019, 10:22:03 PM
Each server should have a silly and ridiculous theme to it lmao. And everyone should be, like, irrationally strict about it.

This is the BATHING SUITS ONLY server, this is the CAT CREATURES ONLY server, this is the ROBOT PEOPLE EVERYWHERE server...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: WolfSoul on April 18, 2019, 10:23:40 PM
And this is only going to happen because they got caught. Not out of the goodness of their hearts or because it's the right thing to do. They got caught. I'd like it to happen, but I'll believe it when I see it. And it will take a lot of time before they have my trust or forgiveness.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 10:24:36 PM
Being real? I never said stop being upset. I don't expect people to "get over it"

I've been attacked, thwarted, disowned, and excommunicated by my blood relative family.

I know first hand that there is no such thing as "just get over it" because nobody ever just "gets over it". I'd never discredit someone's pain.

Healing takes time, so yeah, lets do whatever it takes to heal ourselves.

Heroes can be upset, heartbroken, in pain and still put on that cape and be heroes.

That's really what we all need to do, no matter how much it hurts now, or in the future.

We must steel ourselves for this incoming bumpy ride.

Breaking out the pitchforks and tearing into each other? That's easy.

Putting on the cape? Behaving like the community we SHOULD be? That's hard.

But it's what we should do.

That's why I say avoid the rift. She's a bitch.

Sorry, perhaps that came off more blunt or rude than intended.  I simply meant people have different processes of healing their wounds, for many the first stage is the "pitchfork" stage until they are able to calm down and begin healing their wounds.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 18, 2019, 10:25:33 PM
Papa Smurf was condescending as heck.

Searching for "Papa Smurf is condescending" reveals: https://tcrf.net/The_Teletransport_Smurf

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Super Atom on April 18, 2019, 10:27:56 PM
Maybe we should name that anniversary badge "Sunrise" given the circumstances?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 10:30:49 PM
Maybe we should name that anniversary badge "Sunrise" given the circumstances?

Or "Cabal".
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tivomaniac on April 18, 2019, 10:34:04 PM
Or "Cabal".

Phoenix
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Leandro on April 18, 2019, 10:45:23 PM
Important, because a lot of people are taking out of their arse.

The source code release is all the source code that I was given access to. I am pretty sure it's all the source code that has ever existed; you can build the game client and all servers, with not a lot of effort if you know what you're doing in Visual Studio 2005.

Things like NPCs, missions and so on are not source code. That's data. The binaries created with the source code load the data from pigg files and/or a data folder, just like the game client. In fact, a lot of the client pigg files are used as-is by the server components, and others are modified variants.

Creating all the server-side data files from scratch could take months even with help. That's why I am out there asking for servers to load working binaries on, so everybody who just wants to play can do it right away, and everybody who has actual interest in development can take a deep breath and start figuring out what to do.

Whatever servers I set up will use the latest binaries and data that SCORE itself was using, internally referred to as "Issue 25: Unbroken Spirit". This is simply because it will be the fastest to deploy, since it already has tools for account creation, all the microtransaction garbage like the Paragon Rewards tree removed, and many other optimizations. I am sure there will be a lot of complaints about it not being a "pure" release that will want a lot of changes stripped. Have some patience. It will take much longer to get a server set up if I have to roll back my repositories to early 2013 and hunt down a version of the data files that would play nice with it and does not have massive gaps in content. I don't even think such a version exists. This was a massive reverse engineering operation that took months to get something usable.

The Issue 25 data files, while they will work to set up as many servers as you want based on Issue 25, cannot be directly used with binaries built from the source code. You could mount an entire operation to decompile those files to get something editable back, or you can just have some patience and wait until I can put together a release. I am moving as fast as I can to get this thing out there because I believe that once a few running servers are out there being managed by different people with no connections to me, people will back off and give me the time I need to make sure that anything else that is released does not put anyone at risk; neither former Paragon Studios developers nor former SCORE members.

On that note, former SCORE members that have access to the data repository: please don't take it upon yourself to release anything. You would be putting others at risk. Have some patience.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 18, 2019, 10:50:03 PM

It's pretty amazing how sharing and being transparent has done more for the community in under a week than paranoia and gatekeeping has done in 5 years.

Man, Imagine if the original leak back in November hadn't been squashed by score. Thats like 6 months of progress the true community could have had.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 10:56:39 PM
Wow.  The ability to play CoH just went from being a possibility to a probability. 
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Jordan_Lee on April 18, 2019, 11:11:04 PM
Important, because a lot of people are taking out of their arse.

The source code release is all the source code that I was given access to. I am pretty sure it's all the source code that has ever existed; you can build the game client and all servers, with not a lot of effort if you know what you're doing in Visual Studio 2005.

Things like NPCs, missions and so on are not source code. That's data. The binaries created with the source code load the data from pigg files and/or a data folder, just like the game client. In fact, a lot of the client pigg files are used as-is by the server components, and others are modified variants.

Creating all the server-side data files from scratch could take months even with help. That's why I am out there asking for servers to load working binaries on, so everybody who just wants to play can do it right away, and everybody who has actual interest in development can take a deep breath and start figuring out what to do.

Whatever servers I set up will use the latest binaries and data that SCORE itself was using, internally referred to as "Issue 25: Unbroken Spirit". This is simply because it will be the fastest to deploy, since it already has tools for account creation, all the microtransaction garbage like the Paragon Rewards tree removed, and many other optimizations. I am sure there will be a lot of complaints about it not being a "pure" release that will want a lot of changes stripped. Have some patience. It will take much longer to get a server set up if I have to roll back my repositories to early 2013 and hunt down a version of the data files that would play nice with it and does not have massive gaps in content. I don't even think such a version exists. This was a massive reverse engineering operation that took months to get something usable.

The Issue 25 data files, while they will work to set up as many servers as you want based on Issue 25, cannot be directly used with binaries built from the source code. You could mount an entire operation to decompile those files to get something editable back, or you can just have some patience and wait until I can put together a release. I am moving as fast as I can to get this thing out there because I believe that once a few running servers are out there being managed by different people with no connections to me, people will back off and give me the time I need to make sure that anything else that is released does not put anyone at risk; neither former Paragon Studios developers nor former SCORE members.

On that note, former SCORE members that have access to the data repository: please don't take it upon yourself to release anything. You would be putting others at risk. Have some patience.

Thank you. I don't understand any of that, at all. I just wanted to say thank you. We do appreciate this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 18, 2019, 11:12:51 PM
Important, because a lot of people are taking out of their arse.

The source code release is all the source code that I was given access to. I am pretty sure it's all the source code that has ever existed; you can build the game client and all servers, with not a lot of effort if you know what you're doing in Visual Studio 2005. *snipped*

I'm gonna be honest, I don't know what most of that means.  But I trust this is being handled by people that do, I also trust any changes to the code were necessary.  So I will just continue sitting here patiently because this is the first time in many years I have felt hope for CoH, and even that just feels good.  Do what you gotta do, don't go crazy, and stay safe.

I wish I could help with the project but I don't know anything about anything when it comes to this stuff.  All I could do is compose you some soothing thinkin' music.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: ivanhedgehog on April 18, 2019, 11:21:12 PM
Im perfectly happy to wait. I25 looks very good to me
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Deyaniera on April 18, 2019, 11:23:17 PM
Thank you so much. I have hope again and that helps.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 18, 2019, 11:26:01 PM
 :'(

I'm 65 years old....and that is how I feel.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: villainpower on April 18, 2019, 11:30:00 PM
Important, because a lot of people are taking out of their arse.

The source code release is all the source code that I was given access to. I am pretty sure it's all the source code that has ever existed; you can build the game client and all servers, with not a lot of effort if you know what you're doing in Visual Studio 2005.

Things like NPCs, missions and so on are not source code. That's data. The binaries created with the source code load the data from pigg files and/or a data folder, just like the game client. In fact, a lot of the client pigg files are used as-is by the server components, and others are modified variants.

Creating all the server-side data files from scratch could take months even with help. That's why I am out there asking for servers to load working binaries on, so everybody who just wants to play can do it right away, and everybody who has actual interest in development can take a deep breath and start figuring out what to do.

Whatever servers I set up will use the latest binaries and data that SCORE itself was using, internally referred to as "Issue 25: Unbroken Spirit". This is simply because it will be the fastest to deploy, since it already has tools for account creation, all the microtransaction garbage like the Paragon Rewards tree removed, and many other optimizations. I am sure there will be a lot of complaints about it not being a "pure" release that will want a lot of changes stripped. Have some patience. It will take much longer to get a server set up if I have to roll back my repositories to early 2013 and hunt down a version of the data files that would play nice with it and does not have massive gaps in content. I don't even think such a version exists. This was a massive reverse engineering operation that took months to get something usable.

The Issue 25 data files, while they will work to set up as many servers as you want based on Issue 25, cannot be directly used with binaries built from the source code. You could mount an entire operation to decompile those files to get something editable back, or you can just have some patience and wait until I can put together a release. I am moving as fast as I can to get this thing out there because I believe that once a few running servers are out there being managed by different people with no connections to me, people will back off and give me the time I need to make sure that anything else that is released does not put anyone at risk; neither former Paragon Studios developers nor former SCORE members.

On that note, former SCORE members that have access to the data repository: please don't take it upon yourself to release anything. You would be putting others at risk. Have some patience.

I've been lurking this site for a really long time now, haven't really had much of a reason to post. 

However, in the past few days, we've all been on a rollercoaster of emotions here.  I don't want to speak for anyone here, but I do want to say that I've seen and heard all I need to hear, and all initial backlash/hate/immaturity aside, thank you for doing this.  I think it's safe to say that we are all here to enjoy this game once again, and you literally have an army of resources that you can use to help us all get there faster, please utilize us as best you see fit. 

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 18, 2019, 11:34:37 PM
First - Leandro, thanks. Your cred is still good as far as I'm concerned.

Second - There are some things of interest in the code dump besides just the server. There's code for the Cryptic 3DSMax plugins, for instance. I haven't tried to compile or use it yet; who knows if a plugin that old will still work with modern Max installations but if it does then there's a path for modding and expanding on the existing models and animations.

Even if it doesn't, there's some sort of exporter that puts out plain-text versions of the Max data that theoretically could be massaged into some other form by someone who knew things about modelling and Max. (That person is not me, sadly.)


Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on April 18, 2019, 11:37:11 PM
Important, because a lot of people are taking out of their arse.

The source code release is all the source code that I was given access to. I am pretty sure it's all the source code that has ever existed; you can build the game client and all servers, with not a lot of effort if you know what you're doing in Visual Studio 2005.

Things like NPCs, missions and so on are not source code. That's data. The binaries created with the source code load the data from pigg files and/or a data folder, just like the game client. In fact, a lot of the client pigg files are used as-is by the server components, and others are modified variants.

Creating all the server-side data files from scratch could take months even with help. That's why I am out there asking for servers to load working binaries on, so everybody who just wants to play can do it right away, and everybody who has actual interest in development can take a deep breath and start figuring out what to do.

Whatever servers I set up will use the latest binaries and data that SCORE itself was using, internally referred to as "Issue 25: Unbroken Spirit". This is simply because it will be the fastest to deploy, since it already has tools for account creation, all the microtransaction garbage like the Paragon Rewards tree removed, and many other optimizations. I am sure there will be a lot of complaints about it not being a "pure" release that will want a lot of changes stripped. Have some patience. It will take much longer to get a server set up if I have to roll back my repositories to early 2013 and hunt down a version of the data files that would play nice with it and does not have massive gaps in content. I don't even think such a version exists. This was a massive reverse engineering operation that took months to get something usable.

The Issue 25 data files, while they will work to set up as many servers as you want based on Issue 25, cannot be directly used with binaries built from the source code. You could mount an entire operation to decompile those files to get something editable back, or you can just have some patience and wait until I can put together a release. I am moving as fast as I can to get this thing out there because I believe that once a few running servers are out there being managed by different people with no connections to me, people will back off and give me the time I need to make sure that anything else that is released does not put anyone at risk; neither former Paragon Studios developers nor former SCORE members.

On that note, former SCORE members that have access to the data repository: please don't take it upon yourself to release anything. You would be putting others at risk. Have some patience.

I will admit, I was angry and saddened a few days ago. When this broke, well I felt human in my feelings. Now that you have come forward and shared everything, while I dont understand the 5-6 years thing and probably never will. I will wait for you or Ironwolf to set one up. Even with the leaks you have shown what can happen.
I also want to say how sorry I am for what you went through, I never understood the type of hate you received. I have always thought and held the City of Heroes as the toppy-top of what a community is. And in most aspects I still do. I just have never seen this happen here, in other communities yes. Just not here.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 18, 2019, 11:46:33 PM
This is a start on the road to redemption.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: summers on April 18, 2019, 11:47:53 PM
It's really happening!!!!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Styrj on April 18, 2019, 11:48:06 PM
Except for the angry part (I'm sure you had your reasons) I completely agree with Angel Phoenix77's statements.  Carry on Leo!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Dale-Man on April 18, 2019, 11:59:56 PM
Thanks Leandro!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 19, 2019, 12:23:24 AM
Im trying to remember everything we did when swglegends started so hopefully this will help someone.

Server hardware suggestions

When people start looking for hardware a good server host we still use is OVH for swglegends. https://www.ovh.com/world/dedicated-servers/infra/1801eg05.xml

It has locations in Canada and Europe but if you want extra security against take downs you might look elsewhere but we've been fine for 3 years.

We've had as many as 2200 users online since our last upgrade but the site numbers reset at some point and displays 1500ish. I recall OVH being very good with upgrades so start out with what you think we will need and then upgrade accordingly.

Funding the community server

*To fund use paypal donation program plainly posted on the website. See our setup here at the legends forum: https://swglegends.com/forums/forum.php

*Displaying a goal for each month in the donation window and what you actually obtain is best.

*A financial update is posted at the end of each month displaying how much we earned in donations, how much is spent and how much is left over from the previous months. You must save your left over money for any bad months in the future where donations could be short. Your paying for a family of like minded gamers after all.

*Also please make sure more than one trustworthy person has access to this donation account and use 2 step verification. A projects bank can be compromised at anytime

Server mods / Administrators  / GMs, whatever

*Logs, logs and logs - You really need these to prevent gms abusing power....

*Whenever a gm grants or restores items to players, punishes players, etc this all needs to be noted for each occurrence. We ran into a problem with gms giving themselves and guild mates lots of credits and items.

*When you catch people abusing this the items and money need to be completely removed / destroyed.

* GM access should be also given to a backup person should someone attempt to take over the project. We have this happen a couple times in the early days of swgreborn / swglegends

Database backups

*Do plenty of these and maybe even do a test server before making everything official. We had to do database wipes to fix server instability. It's better to start over early than do it months later after everyone has gotten re-established.

Feel free to add, I know I Forgot something.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 19, 2019, 12:57:49 AM
Papa Smurf was condescending as heck.


Well.... I guess I'm stuck with it then...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Victoria Victrix on April 19, 2019, 01:16:56 AM
Lullaby For The Cat by Elizabeth Bishop

Minnow, go to sleep and dream,
Close your great big eyes;
Round your bed Events prepare
The pleasantest surprise.

Darling Minnow, drop that frown,
Just cooperate,
Not a kitten shall be drowned
In the Marxist State.

Joy and Love will both be yours,
Minnow, don't be glum.
Happy days are coming soon--
Sleep, and let them come...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 01:35:07 AM
I have been hanging out in the coding discord for City of heroes and they have a server up and are working on fixing many of the issues Leandro had.

It is estimated a server will be fully working by this weekend and a possible home Lan build in a few months. The normal home desktop is faster than the servers in 2012.

Soon is almost now. I wouldn't bother trying to upload the current files as they are being reworked to run faster and more stable. The new code will enable a normal $50 a month server to host around 150 to 200 players.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 19, 2019, 01:37:58 AM
I have been hanging out in the coding discord for City of heroes and they have a server up and are working on fixing many of the issues Leandro had.

It is estimated a server will be fully working by this weekend and a possible home Lan build in a few months. The normal home desktop is faster than the servers in 2012.

Soon is almost now. I wouldn't bother trying to upload the current files as they are being reworked to run faster and more stable.

I could kiss you. I won't, because boundaries and consent and yadda yadda... BUT I COULD KISS YOU.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: summers on April 19, 2019, 01:40:49 AM
...I have two weeks of annual leave, can I play? :D
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 01:42:14 AM
The next step is reworking the entire game and folks are planning to do that once they have stable server code up. These folks are incredible with the speed they work. It is quite amazing.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Rejolt on April 19, 2019, 01:51:30 AM
There’s going to be too many rushing in and I don’t blame them lol. Any idea how to fix traffic flow? I don’t even know how a patcher works for something like this.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 02:01:59 AM
I think in the next month you are going to be seeing a LOT of servers.

I know 1 server was up and another one was being worked to add the fixes they were doing from the first one, live - as I said it is amazing to see these folks work. I won't be needing to host a special server - they are going to be simple to host - they are working on making the install idiot proof.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: summers on April 19, 2019, 02:04:04 AM
I think in the next month you are going to be seeing a LOT of servers.

I know 1 server was up and another one was being worked to add the fixes they were doing from the first one, live - as I said it is amazing to see these folks work. I won't be needing to host a special server - they are going to be simple to host - they are working on making the install idiot proof.

Thank you for your amazing work, and to those who are working behind the scenes right now!!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 19, 2019, 02:09:07 AM
So all we need is content for the servers now right? That's sort of the vibe I'm getting from all the news.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: WolfSoul on April 19, 2019, 02:11:16 AM
So even if servers get up by the weekend, you can't log in , make a character and run missions?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Dev7on on April 19, 2019, 02:12:19 AM
Ok once the source code gets released and the community is worried about NCsoft trying to shut it down can we let the M.A.D.E protect us from copyright issues so we won't have to worry about all of this going on? They did made on offer after they won the DMCA rule.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 02:15:21 AM
I think in the next month you are going to be seeing a LOT of servers.

I know 1 server was up and another one was being worked to add the fixes they were doing from the first one, live - as I said it is amazing to see these folks work. I won't be needing to host a special server - they are going to be simple to host - they are working on making the install idiot proof.

Heart racing....pulse pounding......HULKING OUT WITH DELIGHT! :)

Okay seriously though,  these people have the content and player database already?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Desmartica on April 19, 2019, 02:23:44 AM
I'm still here. 

And...it sounds like our wait is nearly over.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 02:25:53 AM
They are waiting to get the player base and missions tomorrow - realize for code junkies they have heard about this code for over a decade and they are going crazy fixing it and understanding it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 19, 2019, 02:27:16 AM
So even if servers get up by the weekend, you can't log in , make a character and run missions?

We've got a couple different things going on here.

As I type, Leandro is seeking out hosts for an i25 server. If they get up this weekend, which isn't guaranteed, all the content would be there. However, it would also likely be unstable as hell. So you can certainly try to do all those things, and I certainly hope we can do all those things, but it may not happen. Apparently, people want to play City of Heroes - who knew?

Ironwolf is talking about creating servers around the i24 source code that was published today. Work is proceeding pretty darn quickly, but they only have the source code - the content database still has to be scrubbed, and the character database is still a very large question mark. When it comes out, one hopes you will be able to log in, make characters, and run missions, but it will likely be worse on the stability front. In the long run, though, it's the best plan short of SEGS.

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 02:30:02 AM
Long term - 6 months or so - you will see a better City of Heroes likely than the original.

Now make the call to the Atlas Revival people.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 02:31:21 AM
They are waiting to get the player base and missions tomorrow - realize for code junkies they have heard about this code for over a decade and they are going crazy fixing it and understanding it.

Sounds good, after all this time I can wait a bit longer.

Also the faster they can convert this into a software package that is idiot proof (or as close as possible to that) for anyone to set up public or private servers and client software,  is the faster it can be distributed to the fan base for archiving as well as playing.....

...and is also the faster we can give a giant middle finger to NCSoft.

They lost my money and respect when they shut the game down, I have never played any of their other games, and if they did revive CoH I would STILL be loathe to give them any money.

Note to self, create Stan Lee tribute/easter egg on private server....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mew Mew Supercat on April 19, 2019, 02:32:20 AM
Long term - 6 months or so - you will see a better City of Heroes likely than the original.

Now make the call to the Atlas Revival people.
Will we have to pay a sub?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 19, 2019, 02:34:52 AM
I wonder if we'd be able to just create one account for all the different servers. But that's impossible, right?

Orrrrr I wonder if there'd be a capability somehow to just continue to use your Paragon Chat (Titan Network) account, and port all that stuff to your 'private server' account?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 19, 2019, 02:36:37 AM
They are waiting to get the player base and missions tomorrow - realize for code junkies they have heard about this code for over a decade and they are going crazy fixing it and understanding it.

That's alright. They were already crazy for believing it existed before Monday right? ;D they sound like the perfect people for the job
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 02:37:18 AM
Will we have to pay a sub?

These special servers would have to take donations from people that OPT to pay donations and that would be solely for server cost/maintenance/bandwidth.  If any charge for special bonuses/features for players that invites a visit from NCSoft's friends Cease and Desist.

Still it is nice to see that the dark tunnel the fans were cast into with the shutdown now has a light at the end of it, and it is NOT the lamp of an onrushing train.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 19, 2019, 02:39:04 AM
All of this is very exciting.  So it sounds like if a server is up by this weekend, it won't really be for jumping in and playing again, but more so just a starting place to get the ball rolling?  Either way, this is all happening so fast and taking my breath away!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Jordan_Lee on April 19, 2019, 02:40:16 AM
I wonder if we'd be able to just create one account for all the different servers. But that's impossible, right?

Orrrrr I wonder if there'd be a capability somehow to just continue to use your Paragon Chat (Titan Network) account, and port all that stuff to your 'private server' account?

I was hoping our character data can be given to us in a file so we can take it with us to different servers. That way if a server crashes, closes, or shuts down we can move to the next.

I think this is fantasy, but it is my fantasy.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mew Mew Supercat on April 19, 2019, 02:40:41 AM
These special servers would have to take donations from people that OPT to pay donations and that would be solely for server cost/maintenance/bandwidth.  If any charge for special bonuses/features for players that invites a visit from NCSoft's friends Cease and Desist.

Still it is nice to see that the dark tunnel the fans were cast into with the shutdown now has a light at the end of it, and it is NOT the lamp of an onrushing train.
Thanks for the headsup :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: CG on April 19, 2019, 02:41:34 AM
It's hard not to be bitter that this could have all been happening years ago.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mantic on April 19, 2019, 02:46:41 AM
I was hoping our character data can be given to us in a file so we can take it with us to different servers. That way if a server crashes, closes, or shuts down we can move to the next.

I think this is fantasy, but it is my fantasy.

The SentinelPlus exporter from sunset could make portable exports for that sort of thing. One character at a time.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 19, 2019, 02:49:12 AM
I just have so many great toons via Paragon Chat that I'd love to re-purpose in an emulator. But, I'd understand if that just wasn't in the bag.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 19, 2019, 02:49:56 AM
It's hard not to be bitter that this could have all been happening years ago.

Right.

I said it wouldn't be easy.

It's not.

In the end?  Being bitter is a waste of your time and you are above that.

We all are.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 19, 2019, 02:57:25 AM
It's hard not to be bitter that this could have all been happening years ago.
Just think

We could have been on issue 30 now
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mantic on April 19, 2019, 03:00:27 AM
These special servers would have to take donations from people that OPT to pay donations and that would be solely for server cost/maintenance/bandwidth.  If any charge for special bonuses/features for players that invites a visit from NCSoft's friends Cease and Desist.

Profit or no, NCSoft's lawyers will be coming. Expect that. There are no rules of fair play that make IP infringement legal, so if you're going to run an unlicensed game server accept that it is a criminal venture and prepare accordingly.

If you want to incentivize contributions do it however you see fit. More likely you'll offend some potential players. Then again, the few you don't offend may be all you need.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 03:03:13 AM
Folks please give all credit to the coders and server people - they are working the magic!

Stop and think that what is being done now would not have been so easy in 2012 or 2013.

Leandro is also working hard to help and so are some of the SCoRE people.
Give credit where due. I would have stepped up if needed but these folks hit the ground at a dead run and are doing the work.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 03:04:29 AM
Profit or no, NCSoft's lawyers will be coming. Expect that. There are no rules of fair play that make IP infringement legal, so if you're going to run an unlicensed game server accept that it is a criminal venture and prepare accordingly.

If you want to incentivize contributions do it however you see fit. More likely you'll offend some potential players. Then again, the few you don't offend may be all you need.

If this will run as it appears right now you can host for 100+ of your friends for $50 a month.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on April 19, 2019, 03:07:53 AM
Question for the mods here. Can we have  a thread to the new servers. This way it beats trying to locate them going here or there to find one.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 19, 2019, 03:09:48 AM
Ok once the source code gets released and the community is worried about NCsoft trying to shut it down can we let the M.A.D.E protect us from copyright issues so we won't have to worry about all of this going on? They did made on offer after they won the DMCA rule.

MADE is too limited.  The server would be in a museum where NO ONE can access the game outside it's walls for demonstration only, or in a single player mode that won't allow for multiplayer use.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: TonyV on April 19, 2019, 03:10:32 AM
Question for the mods here. Can we have  a thread to the new servers. This way it beats trying to locate them going here or there to find one.

We're going to have to talk about that. Right now, there aren't any yet. I don't know the implications of us hosting that info yet. We'll try to figure something out.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 03:16:58 AM
Well a couple i24 servers are up but without character data or missions.

The i25 code will be out tomorrow and it is complete. The coders and server folks expect to have something up this weekend but a stable idiot proof product in a month or 2. One of the guys is going to work on a local lan client to run a small home server and he said likely 6 months for that.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Angel Phoenix77 on April 19, 2019, 03:18:42 AM
We're going to have to talk about that. Right now, there aren't any yet. I don't know the implications of us hosting that info yet. We'll try to figure something out.

Thank you for answering my question :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RGladden on April 19, 2019, 03:22:14 AM
You know, I'm not going to mind one bit having to start from scratch.  Not one bit.   ;)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 19, 2019, 03:24:38 AM
We're going to have to talk about that. Right now, there aren't any yet. I don't know the implications of us hosting that info yet. We'll try to figure something out.

I know that nobody has asked for a "vote" on this, but I would still vote "no" to such a thing.

Despite the whole Inifinite Rasa debacle, it's been pointed out a few times here and there that there are Legacy and Aion and other such emus of NCSoft games that have been in operation without ever seeing a Cease & Desist order.

If we want City of Heroes to likewise manage to fly under the radar then we need to give NCSoft a shred of plausible deniability when it comes to  turning a blind eye to something that everyone actually knows about, by NOT advertising the private servers on the most public face that CoH has these days.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 19, 2019, 03:28:44 AM
If this will run as it appears right now you can host for 100+ of your friends for $50 a month.

How much would it cost to buy a hundred friends?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on April 19, 2019, 03:29:26 AM
I have been hanging out in the coding discord for City of heroes and they have a server up and are working on fixing many of the issues Leandro had.

It is estimated a server will be fully working by this weekend and a possible home Lan build in a few months. The normal home desktop is faster than the servers in 2012.

Soon is almost now. I wouldn't bother trying to upload the current files as they are being reworked to run faster and more stable. The new code will enable a normal $50 a month server to host around 150 to 200 players.
i take back my rather negative suspicions about some of Leandro's initial comments when the truth about the existence of functional CoH servers was leaked. While i still think the whole private server approach could've been handled better in general i really do appreciate the work that went into making it and it finally being released. Still not happy about NCsoft shutting the game down in the first place and it's hard for me to fully believe that the server code would've been released any time soon if someone hadn't spilled the beans, but that's water under the bridge at this point and i'm simply hoping to play City of Heroes again sometime in the near future.


Also i'd like to finally get my hands on City of Titans's first release since it still looks like it's shaping up to be a worthy successor to CoH, but that's all secondary to this news.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 19, 2019, 03:30:54 AM
Sentinel+ was created expressly for this purpose. Will eventually an easy Sentinel+ uploader be added to the general "private server package"?

Despite the whole Inifinite Rasa debacle, it's been pointed out a few times here and there that there are Legacy and Aion and other such emus of NCSoft games that have been in operation without ever seeing a Cease & Desist order.

Don't forget Auto Assault... and we don't know that these emulators *haven't* gotten a C&D.


Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 03:31:31 AM
It's hard not to be bitter that this could have all been happening years ago.

But if this did happen years ago, the odds of NCSoft cracking down would have been greater then they are now.

plus with all the software changes that have occurred in that time,  recoding the game for the "idiot proof" installation that has been mentioned by Ironwolf should be easier now then it was then.  Also hardware has improved and a server now should be easier than  then to run the game.  Also with file distribution sites being what they are now compared to then, disseminating the final result for anyone and their brother or sister to rev up a server and play the game is also even better and with such wide dispersal, good luck to NCsoft if they try to crack down now.

However that all being said, if there were a way to have done all this back then it would have been great.  However I am not being bitter nor will I judge ScoRe and anyone that was on the secret server.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Adam Infinity on April 19, 2019, 03:32:41 AM
I understand the need for discretion. But simple folk like myself would like to be informed in a simple and clear manner of where to go to play a quality version of the game. I don't want to be left hanging, because I'm not cool or savvy enough to figure it out myself. Please point me (us) in the right direction when people are playing. Thank you
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Fellstrike on April 19, 2019, 03:33:19 AM
I'm glad to hear how quickly progress is being made.

Be sure all of you working on all this take care of yourselves too though!

Also Adam, I'm sure between Paragon Chat, Reddit, and here lots of messages will be around once things are in a playable state. Just keep an ear to the ground.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 03:33:55 AM
If this will run as it appears right now you can host for 100+ of your friends for $50 a month.

That sounds wonderful
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MWRuger on April 19, 2019, 03:34:48 AM
FINALLY!

It looks like if I can last till October I can play City of Heroes again!

Ignoring all the drama, this is all I ever wanted. I do feel for the people who passed before this could happen and who knows? I'm not back in the game yet, but I am totally jazzed and more excited than I have been since "New Efforts" was born many, many posts ago.

I have a buddy who wants to toss a couple of thousand to create a private server for us and I ain't mad at no one!

See you all in Atlas Park on the 1st Double XP Weekend!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on April 19, 2019, 03:35:03 AM
We're going to have to talk about that. Right now, there aren't any yet. I don't know the implications of us hosting that info yet. We'll try to figure something out.
i think it's probably better to leave that to other venues, such as the discord server and other sources. At most i'd suggest just offering suggestions about where someone could look for the info without directly hosting it. i would suggest updating things like the powers database to include the i25 build and the like, but not directly hosting server info. IMO, YMMV, CYA
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 03:35:54 AM
I know that nobody has asked for a "vote" on this, but I would still vote "no" to such a thing.

Despite the whole Inifinite Rasa debacle, it's been pointed out a few times here and there that there are Legacy and Aion and other such emus of NCSoft games that have been in operation without ever seeing a Cease & Desist order.

If we want City of Heroes to likewise manage to fly under the radar then we need to give NCSoft a shred of plausible deniability when it comes to  turning a blind eye to something that everyone actually knows about, by NOT advertising the private servers on the most public face that CoH has these days.

Do any of these emus give the option to donate money to offset server/bandwidth and can they prove that no profit is being made? If so, more power to them :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 19, 2019, 03:36:01 AM
I'm curious. How is it going to be so much cheaper for these new servers than it was for the secret server?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 03:38:44 AM
You know, I'm not going to mind one bit having to start from scratch.  Not one bit.   ;)

Well if it is your own server, then rebuilding your characters from scratch with admin abilities to restore your influence,  base prestige for base rebuilding and spawn IO's to store in base as characters level up will definitely speed up the process :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 19, 2019, 03:39:16 AM
I'm curious. How is it going to be so much cheaper for these new servers than it was for the secret server?

I would guess a combination of newer technology and more people involved working on the code.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Stonehead on April 19, 2019, 03:40:11 AM
Very exciting news - thanks to all those making this happen!


D
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 03:46:12 AM
I am also hoping for a good admin interface to toggle things like anniversary badges and events, but also to be able to make some "tune ups and adjustments" to certain powers and/or archetypes that I felt should have been done.

Looking at Energy Melee, Peacebringer and Warshades.....

I think if I were to run a private server I'd start with the first two months of DXP and make sure all anniversary badges are enabled as well as make sure new ones are in place to compensate for the shut down era and the new year....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 19, 2019, 03:51:11 AM
I'm curious. How is it going to be so much cheaper for these new servers than it was for the secret server?
The $1000 price tag quoted was from 2013. Your desktop now is probably about as powerful as a server back then.

Well, not quite, given the specs of the server posted, but it was a VERY powerful server. Even today a comparable server costs hundreds to rent.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 19, 2019, 03:52:14 AM
The $1000 price tag quoted was from 2013. Your desktop now is probably about as powerful as a server back then.

Well, not quite, given the specs of the server posted, but it was a VERY powerful server. Even today a comparable server costs hundreds to rent.

That's comforting to hear.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 03:54:34 AM
The $1000 price tag quoted was from 2013. Your desktop now is probably about as powerful as a server back then.

Well, not quite, given the specs of the server posted, but it was a VERY powerful server. Even today a comparable server costs hundreds to rent.

or imagine how cheap you might be able to get a server from that era with the specs to run CoH?
Granted sometimes parts for legacy hardware isn't always easy to get but still...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 03:58:27 AM
So here is a question about energy melee, that be simply answered yes or no but if you want to expand your answer a bit that is of course, fine.

I'm thinking that for my own server, I would like to restore Energy Melee's  ENERGY TRANSFER power to its original pre issue 13 state and have it where in power customization a player can choose which version they want.

After all, that change was NOT that well received and while my energy melee characters builds were modified and the change accommodated for, it was not a change that I enjoyed overly much. But this way fans of the change can still have the altered version if they wish.

Good idea? yes or no?

Also Peacebringers and Warshades modified so that when created or respec'd they can CHOOSE to have flight or teleport as travel power, thus we can have teleporting Peacebringers and Warshades that can fly in human form without jetpacks and rocket boards or using squid mode.

Good idea? yes or no?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RruinerR on April 19, 2019, 04:00:49 AM
So, one thing I am curious of, which I haven't seen mentioned, is, does this include City of Villians work? 
I saw that this was cut from just before the shut down, so I have hopes, but nothing specific ever detailed. 

Trying to figure out HOW excited I should be.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 19, 2019, 04:06:18 AM
City of Villains has been 'merged' into City of Heroes as the same product just before City of Heroes Freedom.  City of Villains and Going Rogue content would be included just like in Issue 23.  No changes needed.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kyriani on April 19, 2019, 04:07:02 AM
So, one thing I am curious of, which I haven't seen mentioned, is, does this include City of Villians work? 
I saw that this was cut from just before the shut down, so I have hopes, but nothing specific ever detailed. 

Trying to figure out HOW excited I should be.

Wut? City of Villains is not something separate from CoH. It was never "cut" before shut down. Not sure where you got that idea.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 19, 2019, 04:10:23 AM
Will we have to pay a sub?

Private servers, emulators etc are free. Once people start charging it is guaranteed to get shut down so if you run into someone charging to play don't bother playing. You should instead find a server and do the donation option.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 19, 2019, 04:19:41 AM
We're going to have to talk about that. Right now, there aren't any yet. I don't know the implications of us hosting that info yet. We'll try to figure something out.

With all the stupid press this is getting from the change.org petition and blogs you definitely should not. For now people should use the facebook groups, and discord servers as a means of finding it. Until a website is started.

I mean if you really want to avoid that attention here I wold instead make a single post in the wake me up when there's news thread pointing to a discussion area (Everyone gets notifed) and then delete that post at a later time.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: RruinerR on April 19, 2019, 04:26:46 AM
The "cut" I was referring to was the state of the source code/playerDB that SCORE acquired.  I just wanted to confirm the CoV portion is included is all.  My wife and I stopped playing before it went free to play and due to life (kids) couldn't get back to playing before it shut down.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Dev7on on April 19, 2019, 04:34:49 AM
FINALLY!

It looks like if I can last till October I can play City of Heroes again!

Ignoring all the drama, this is all I ever wanted. I do feel for the people who passed before this could happen and who knows? I'm not back in the game yet, but I am totally jazzed and more excited than I have been since "New Efforts" was born many, many posts ago.

I have a buddy who wants to toss a couple of thousand to create a private server for us and I ain't mad at no one!

See you all in Atlas Park on the 1st Double XP Weekend!

I was waiting for you to finally respond about the news.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 19, 2019, 04:37:22 AM
https://discord.gg/QZFg3UK <--- This is an invite link to a City of Heroes discord server. It includes a variety of channels, including one for each server to help people reconnect with old server pals, and various ones for reminiscing and sharing CoH art and such.

I'm curious. How is it going to be so much cheaper for these new servers than it was for the secret server?

I posted on reddit, the wayback machine archive of the server company the secret server was using has a working cost calculator. For the same month that the server requirements were posted (in a leaked screenshot) the costs are expensive (and about in line with what was posted). That's just the pace of technology... and it's possible that the server was just pricey, because it was chosen based more on location rather than price only.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quote above no longer links properly. But it is unmodified, and the original can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Stupid Fanboy on April 19, 2019, 04:40:04 AM
I have been hanging out in the coding discord for City of heroes and they have a server up and are working on fixing many of the issues Leandro had.

It is estimated a server will be fully working by this weekend and a possible home Lan build in a few months. The normal home desktop is faster than the servers in 2012.

Soon is almost now. I wouldn't bother trying to upload the current files as they are being reworked to run faster and more stable. The new code will enable a normal $50 a month server to host around 150 to 200 players.

This is so surreal. I can't believe we're talking about playing again in this matter of fact tone.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nyx Nought Nothing on April 19, 2019, 05:01:42 AM
This is so surreal. I can't believe we're talking about playing again in this matter of fact tone.
i can, and it's wonderful.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Noyjitat on April 19, 2019, 05:25:35 AM
My boss offered me time off if I thought i'd get to play this again soon before I learned the source was going to be released. I have paid vacation and im traveling out of the country this summer with the paid time, but I may just take 1 day off anyway if coh shows up before then.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 05:33:45 AM
My boss offered me time off if I thought i'd get to play this again soon before I learned the source was going to be released. I have paid vacation and im traveling out of the country this summer with the paid time, but I may just take 1 day off anyway if coh shows up before then.

I'm thinking of coming down with a bad case of 3 day flu when this comes out....
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 19, 2019, 05:38:53 AM
And if you're worried that Leandro was holding back the database, you can rest easy knowing that it, in all it's 47.4 megabyte glory, is now publicly available at a Discord near you.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Wyrm on April 19, 2019, 05:42:33 AM
I managed to remain blissfully unaware of any of this until today. Wow. =)

This is all incredibly heartening. Thank you to everyone involved in keeping CoH alive. I look forward to finding my way onto some of these servers in the near future, and tanking my heart out.

Or, you know - speed boosting everyone.

The main thing that surprises me about the last few hundred messages in this thread is that apparently, not everyone has their old builds, Sentinel+ files, and screenshot folders archived on multiple computers. I may have had a hard time letting go...
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Victoria Victrix on April 19, 2019, 05:54:39 AM
When you are calculating costs, don't forget bandwidth.

We use a lot of it here--Larry uploads his ready-for-print cover paintings, the guys host a twitch stream for car rebuilds and Doom, ,<can't remember the space game>, Quake streams, and Larry participates in tabletop twitch streams.

And that kind of bandwidth, which is insignificant compared to a game server, is $500/month.

Plus, if you try to host as few as 4 people outside your property on the server you've got in your basement, I guaran-damn-tee you that unless you are paying as much as we are a month, you will be throttled down to nothing by your ISP.  And probably reported for "suspicious activity."
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 06:25:45 AM
Folks please give all credit to the coders and server people - they are working the magic!

Stop and think that what is being done now would not have been so easy in 2012 or 2013.

Leandro is also working hard to help and so are some of the SCoRE people.
Give credit where due. I would have stepped up if needed but these folks hit the ground at a dead run and are doing the work.

It would have been a lot harder in 2012/2013 and chances NC Soft would have been more vigilant.  Will they be now?  That's a test.  But I expect the community to pass it.

Here is now.  That's the most important thing.  A time of celebration.

Great to hear Leandro is working hard to help along with some of the SCoRE people.

That 15th anniversary seems to be going accordingly to some cosmic plan...

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 06:43:37 AM
I think in the next month you are going to be seeing a LOT of servers.

I know 1 server was up and another one was being worked to add the fixes they were doing from the first one, live - as I said it is amazing to see these folks work. I won't be needing to host a special server - they are going to be simple to host - they are working on making the install idiot proof.

Thank you for the updates, Ironwolf.  Most welcome!

I think the best thing is to make 'this thing' idiot proof for the likes of the non-tech' heads out there.  (I count myself amongst that group.)

I'd also hope that the community programmers get a LAN, 'solo' capacity 'doomsday' switch capability built into the game.  So, it can be run privately 'solo', P2P, LAN, 'modest' local server capability to serve as a 'doomsday' fall back position in the case of litigation or whoever has the 'server code' gets hit by a bus.

The one thing that I always admired about Unreal Tournament.  You could run the game solo, LAN, run your own server, play over the internet on somebody else's served game.

That, really, should be the aim.  Then?

It's about the community.  Some will modify.  Some will refine.  Some will want to play the 'Legacy' as is.  Some will play on Ironwolf's server.  Some will wait for Leandro's/SCORE's 'Unbroken' server.  Some will get a variant of that given to the community whilst they continue their work.  Some will get new content.  Some may finally get a map/mission creator. 

All roads are now possible.  That this game gets handed over to the community.  'It' can be the custodian of CoH 'Legacy' (The 'Unbroken.')

The speed of events and the rallying around of the CoH/programming community is heart warming.

Well met, Leandro, Iron Wolf, SCORE and the 'scores' of others helping get this 'real.'

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tubbius on April 19, 2019, 06:47:16 AM
And the real kicker is this:

It could have been NCSoft getting the glory, praise, AND money through subscriptions or purchases had they merely stayed the course years ago.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 06:47:25 AM
Well a couple i24 servers are up but without character data or missions.

The i25 code will be out tomorrow and it is complete. The coders and server folks expect to have something up this weekend but a stable idiot proof product in a month or 2. One of the guys is going to work on a local lan client to run a small home server and he said likely 6 months for that.

Excellent news!  Stable.  Idiot proof in 2 months.  Home LAN in 6.  By the GODS!

A 'small home server' to run a local client?

Now, THAT is the HOLY GRAIL!

September is looking good.  8) ;D

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 06:49:43 AM
The i25 code will be out tomorrow and it is complete.

Complete.

Finally.

The day has come. 

A day that will be long remembered.

I always knew the game would come back.

Always believed.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 06:51:19 AM
How much would it cost to buy a hundred friends?

More than that. ;)

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 06:59:43 AM
They are waiting to get the player base and missions tomorrow - realize for code junkies they have heard about this code for over a decade and they are going crazy fixing it and understanding it.

They must be very excited to finally 'see' the 'legend' of the code. 

It's a Neo and Morpheus moment.  It finally exists.  It's...'real.'

The 'matrix.'  It's 'just code.'

As for the player base, don't know if it includes the European servers (where the American and Euro ones amalgamated in the last year?) and access to your characters.  That would be nice.  I have my email that I used for them so I can verify my characters.  But if I had to start from scratch?

Who cares?

"Long term - 6 months or so - you will see a better City of Heroes likely than the original."

No doubt.  Can't wait.  It's going to be beautiful.  A 'smoother' pieces of software running on modern, powerful home PCs.  This is the CoH's community's chance.  And who knows, it bring in 'SCORES' of other programmers, players who didn't get the chance to play it 'back when.'

"Now make the call to the Atlas Revival people."

Indeed.  They'll have the 'real thing' to work with!  And a poster mentioned about the original Studio Max plug in to work with...

...here we go.  This is just the beginning.


Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on April 19, 2019, 07:17:12 AM
So forgive me if this is jumping the gun here, but if the DB has been released does that mean we will be able to retrieve our characters at some point in the future?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Harq76 on April 19, 2019, 07:23:53 AM
I check this website every few days.  April 16th is my birthday and before I went to bed I decided to check it out. All I can say is wow.  Just wow about everything.  I was tempted to say my two bits since then and decided to just be patient and read up on everything carefully before saying something that would be misinformed and unfair.

I'm very glad I did. because now I really just want to say this to everyone that is making this happen again. 

Thank you.

Not many people understand what this game meant to me and others like me.  I have very fond memories of this game.  My daughter (3 at the time) sat on my lap watching me take down mobs.  Now her and my son may have an opportunity to make their own as well (providing I even let them have a turn haha).

Thing is, I was just hoping.  That's all. Its becoming a reality and soon as well. I appreciate everything that is being done. I don't care about the player database.  Playing from scratch is what I plan to do anyway. I love earning my street cred hehe. 

Anyway, I'm rambling and I'm not really saying anything that hasn't been said already by others in the past.  Just wanted to share this.

Again.  Thank you.  Thank you everyone.

See you on the other side!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 07:25:48 AM

The source code release is all the source code that I was given access to. I am pretty sure it's all the source code that has ever existed; you can build the game client and all servers, with not a lot of effort if you know what you're doing in Visual Studio 2005.

Things like NPCs, missions and so on are not source code. That's data. The binaries created with the source code load the data from pigg files and/or a data folder, just like the game client. In fact, a lot of the client pigg files are used as-is by the server components, and others are modified variants.

Creating all the server-side data files from scratch could take months even with help. That's why I am out there asking for servers to load working binaries on, so everybody who just wants to play can do it right away, and everybody who has actual interest in development can take a deep breath and start figuring out what to do.

Whatever servers I set up will use the latest binaries and data that SCORE itself was using, internally referred to as "Issue 25: Unbroken Spirit". This is simply because it will be the fastest to deploy, since it already has tools for account creation, all the microtransaction garbage like the Paragon Rewards tree removed, and many other optimizations. I am sure there will be a lot of complaints about it not being a "pure" release that will want a lot of changes stripped. Have some patience. It will take much longer to get a server set up if I have to roll back my repositories to early 2013 and hunt down a version of the data files that would play nice with it and does not have massive gaps in content. I don't even think such a version exists. This was a massive reverse engineering operation that took months to get something usable.

The Issue 25 data files, while they will work to set up as many servers as you want based on Issue 25, cannot be directly used with binaries built from the source code. You could mount an entire operation to decompile those files to get something editable back, or you can just have some patience and wait until I can put together a release. I am moving as fast as I can to get this thing out there because I believe that once a few running servers are out there being managed by different people with no connections to me, people will back off and give me the time I need to make sure that anything else that is released does not put anyone at risk; neither former Paragon Studios developers nor former SCORE members.

On that note, former SCORE members that have access to the data repository: please don't take it upon yourself to release anything. You would be putting others at risk. Have some patience.

Leandro,  thank you for the comprehensive post and the leadership.  It's good to see you come out swinging with common sense, constructive action and yes, we need patience and discipline.

We've waited this long.  A few days or a week or so for a stable i25 release sounds like a dream.  A home server in '6 months' sounds like the holy grail.

We don't want to put you, SCORE or any Paragon Developers in jeopardy.  No one wants that.  I don't want the game at any price.  Not at that price. 

Again, I say.  I hope you're ok.  DO look after your health.  We don't want any more casualties of 'war.'  I always found you to be a positive force in the CoH community and P.R wing of the SCORE that gave me the confidence that the game would come back and this day would arrive.  That you and the SCORE team were custodians of the game is fine by me.  You've preserved it.  Improved it.  Refined it.  And players or rather, 'Heroes' who have 'Fallen' got to play it...that's more than fine by me.

Star Wars galaxies took years and it had legions of programmers on it and a source leak from Sony themselves.  (Correct me, if I'm wrong on that...folks.)

I was always prepared for this to take about ten years as a comparative timeline.  So the fact that it's happening sooner(TM) is a bonus to me.

That you're passing over 'source code' to get others involved, help develop or to just play is good news.  The time seems about right. 

This allows developers to ponder the next moves for the game.  Whilst people can enjoy SCORE'S work on issue 25 'Unbroken Spirit.'  A worthy release and a worthy title for the CoH Community.

Having something that includes i24's content is exciting enough.  But to have  SCORE's hard work on issue 25 with revisions (I'll more than trust you guys, we have ICON and the Paragon Chat and the excellent work on SG bases as reminders of what sound work you've done) for stability and other 'Easter Eggs...' will be the 'worthy' release that we'd all hoped for before it was cruelly shot down.

As Ironwolf has mentioned.  Some servers are or will be 'Idiot Proof' real soon and talking home server/LAN within 6 months.  I consider this crucial.  So the 'mortals' can play it privately.  P2P with people we knew.  And that way we can 'solo' our way and enjoy the game.  Others may want to run a server with 50 friends.  Others may want a thriving community of 1000 or more.  I think allowing the community to embrace it on many levels allows the CoH community to elevate existentially to the higher level is deserves.  It won't be held hostage to fortune anymore by any corporation.

Working together, Leandro, SCORE, Ironwolf and the 'transfixed by legend' programmers getting their hands on the 'code' for the first time is more than we could have hoped for mere days ago.

Regards,

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 19, 2019, 07:35:14 AM
So forgive me if this is jumping the gun here, but if the DB has been released does that mean we will be able to retrieve our characters at some point in the future?

No, the database being referenced is the content database; the missions and scripts and such. The player character database is a different kettle of fish.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: MWRuger on April 19, 2019, 07:46:33 AM
I was waiting for you to finally respond about the news.

I may be slow, but I'm sure!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: BitLoadR on April 19, 2019, 08:47:00 AM
... Some servers are or will be 'Idiot Proof' real soon and talking home server/LAN within 6 months.  I consider this crucial.  So the 'mortals' can play it privately.  P2P with people we knew.  And that way we can 'solo' our way and enjoy the game ....

This is what I got most exited about while trying to catch up on all the news. Paragon Chat is great for exploring and chatting. And I loved playing together with others when the game was up.
But my life has changed a lot ever since the game was shutdown, not because of the game being pulled btw, but I had to make choices and redirect my attention to other parts of my life that makes it difficult for me to be online in an MMO environment. I've tried, by use of Champions Online, but even then I don't team up much and just try to complete missions by myself.

So getting back into CoH and being able to 'solo' missions using a private server that I'm running at home, that would be awesome.
Sure, it would be more fun to team up with other players and have a good team to run trails with, but I no longer have the privilege to spent 3 consecutive hours doing a Statesman Trial on the weekend. Or spent half a day taking down Hamidon. My life has changed so much over the past 10 years that my gaming-time mostly consists of playing Assassins Creed, Watch Dogs or Kerbal Space Program for 30 to 60 minutes during the evenings, just before bed.

....

But if anyone has success running a private server online with i24/i25 code I would gladly try to join others for some missions. :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 09:43:08 AM
This is what I got most exited about while trying to catch up on all the news. Paragon Chat is great for exploring and chatting. And I loved playing together with others when the game was up.
But my life has changed a lot ever since the game was shutdown, not because of the game being pulled btw, but I had to make choices and redirect my attention to other parts of my life that makes it difficult for me to be online in an MMO environment. I've tried, by use of Champions Online, but even then I don't team up much and just try to complete missions by myself.

So getting back into CoH and being able to 'solo' missions using a private server that I'm running at home, that would be awesome.
Sure, it would be more fun to team up with other players and have a good team to run trails with, but I no longer have the privilege to spent 3 consecutive hours doing a Statesman Trial on the weekend. Or spent half a day taking down Hamidon. My life has changed so much over the past 10 years that my gaming-time mostly consists of playing Assassins Creed, Watch Dogs or Kerbal Space Program for 30 to 60 minutes during the evenings, just before bed.

....

But if anyone has success running a private server online with i24/i25 code I would gladly try to join others for some missions. :)

I nodded my way through this post.

Though I'm thrilled about what is to come.  I won't be able to afford it the time I once did. 

Being able to solo and enjoy the nostalgia on my own terms without committing to a 3 hour TF.

Having 'solutions' to honour the spirit of 'pick up and play' of the original game is the way to go.

Those who want to go 'hardcore' TF, perfect their IO builds, grind ten alts in the 1st few weeks?  Have at it.

For me?  To causally fly in wonder and let loose an energy torrent to an errant mob as a 'rookie' hero once more...will be something I will slowly savour.  It's been so long a wait.  What time I give to it will be savoured.

Having THAT option care of a Solo server, LAN, 'small' server capacity or 'me and my thousand' strong community gives the community the flexibility.

Times have changed.  People have changed.  The time we can give to it may have changed.

But it will be fantastic to enjoy the game once more on our own terms rather than those imposed by the pressure of utilising our subs.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: CG on April 19, 2019, 09:58:53 AM
Right.

I said it wouldn't be easy.

It's not.

In the end?  Being bitter is a waste of your time and you are above that.

We all are.

Thanks, I'm cured.

There was a point between getting the code from anonymous devs 6 years ago and last week when there was a conspiracy to keep the private server secret with enough time to make new ATs where scrubbing the code and re-publishing it anonymously was the right thing to do.  There was a point where the well-meaning people of SCoRE lost their way and kept this golden gift to themselves instead of sharing.

My bitterness will go away when I can play again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 10:03:51 AM
or imagine how cheap you might be able to get a server from that era with the specs to run CoH?
Granted sometimes parts for legacy hardware isn't always easy to get but still...

You can get the exact servers that CoH was running on in 2012 for $700 for the frame and $60 for each blade.

The changes they are making will render this not necessary. When an instance was built the entire map and mission were held in memory, with modern processors and memory speeds this is unnecessary and so they are changing it. Once built you should be able to run this on 2 systems with i5 processors and 16gb of ram along with a 125gb SSD in each system and a second drive for a mirror if you want it. Something like this:

Cost $150 each
HP Desktop Computer 6300 Pro Intel Core i5 3rd Gen 3470 (3.20 GHz) 8 GB DDR3 128 GB SSD Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit

+
$140 per stick - Crucial CT16G3ERSDD4186D 16GB 240-Pin DDR3 1866 SDRAM ECC Registered Server Memory

A setup like this would run 100 players likely quite easily. For a home setup for just you a few friends 2 of the base systems would do it. So you could run a home server of CoH for about a one time purchase of $300 - $400 and be just fine.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 10:26:35 AM
So where are we now?

Quoted from Discord:
 I'll have those servers for public for you sometime soon, literally installing windows on them now

Current build is based on the i24 code NOT the i25 coming today:

Quoted from Discord:
 That's scores source though, not what we well have when all this is done... Got to understand there is 2 sets of things being given, the source code, and a built distro. The distro we will get to hold us over while the code for I'm modified i24 gets completely scrubbed.   Once we get that, our version will drop to i24 and we'll lose the 6 extra years of dev.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: kiario on April 19, 2019, 10:32:16 AM
I guess lots of people ask the same q. Days weeks or months from a first playable version? I look forward to installing the whole thing on my pc to play solo. Hopefully there will be a guide up. Got two stationay powerfull pc's so it should be ok. If not i'll upgrade them :)

Why was i25 leaked and not i24. What is the difference?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 10:41:11 AM
They are putting out a playable version today - but it won't be stable.

What is happening is that the coders have the source code from multiple people. They have the game as it was at shutdown but no data for the game - no missions or characters. Then they have the i25 code from Leandro that will be out this afternoon - we told him to go to work and relax - I said I will take the blame for the delay.

The i25 SCoRE code has missions and character data + modified new code for different power sets.


They have the i24 source code and are working the bugs out of it so the server folks can run it faster and more stable than the original. A lot of the tools now are far more powerful than they had in 2012 - also the Atlas Park Revival maps according to the coders should be easy to install at some point as they are static. Also for the costume crowd - using the 2012 version of 3D max - some are already working on new costumes for the game.

So in a nutshell:

The servers will be i25 modded code and development will begin on the i24 source original to fix the spaghetti, update how it works and to enable modern tools for faster changes and better network code. It is quite fun to watch what is happening if you are a nerd like me lol.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Thunder Glove on April 19, 2019, 10:50:31 AM
.... okay, I'm really going to cry now.  Because (a) dreams really do come true, and (b) YOU ALL LIED TO ME WHEN YOU SAID YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A SERVER READY BEFORE I WENT AWAY FOR TWO WEEKS!  NOW I'M GOING TO BE STUCK IN DUMB OL' PARIS AND MY FAMILY WILL BE GOING "LOOK AT THIS ARTWORK, IT'S REALLY OLD" AND I'LL BE GOING "WHY AREN'T I A SUPERHERO RIGHT NOW?"

;)

Seriously, this is the best possible news.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Castegyre on April 19, 2019, 11:05:38 AM
I've gone from being very disappointed to almost proud. I've said for years to anyone who would listen that CoH has had the best MMO community I've experienced since I started playing them in EQ beta. I like being proven right.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 11:09:12 AM
I think people just lost sight of the original goal.

Now that focus is back and the world is returning.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Belenus on April 19, 2019, 11:14:23 AM
They are putting out a playable version today - but it won't be stable.

What is happening is that the coders have the source code from multiple people. They have the game as it was at shutdown but no data for the game - no missions or characters. Then they have the i25 code from Leandro that will be out this afternoon - we told him to go to work and relax - I said I will take the blame for the delay.

The i25 SCoRE code has missions and character data + modified new code for different power sets.


They have the i24 source code and are working the bugs out of it so the server folks can run it faster and more stable than the original. A lot of the tools now are far more powerful than they had in 2012 - also the Atlas Park Revival maps according to the coders should be easy to install at some point as they are static. Also for the costume crowd - using the 2012 version of 3D max - some are already working on new costumes for the game.

So in a nutshell:

The servers will be i25 modded code and development will begin on the i24 source original to fix the spaghetti, update how it works and to enable modern tools for faster changes and better network code. It is quite fun to watch what is happening if you are a nerd like me lol.

This is what the community was for helping accomplish a common goal :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 19, 2019, 11:22:14 AM
...Welp. Looks like I'm buying a new computer this weekend! This is almost too exciting.

Do we know anything about how log-in's work will work yet? Or is that still up in the air? I'm pretty sure my login for Paragon Chat is the same as my login was for City of Heroes... but I could be wrong?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: summers on April 19, 2019, 11:25:37 AM
I don't know how this went from "COH is never coming back   :'( " to "OMG COH is almost here  ;D " in just a few days.

What a roller coaster...!!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 11:26:21 AM
For simplicity they are going to use the Paragon Chat launcher at first since it can already work.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 19, 2019, 11:31:45 AM
For simplicity they are going to use the Paragon Chat launcher at first since it can already work.

Makes sense!

Does that mean all of our Paragon Chat toons will transfer over? Again, if not and/or if you don't know, I totally understand.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: BitLoadR on April 19, 2019, 11:47:53 AM
Does that mean all of our Paragon Chat toons will transfer over? Again, if not and/or if you don't know, I totally understand.

I'm just wondering how many people would actually be disappointed if they found out all their progress, all their toons, just everything from "back then" would not be available on the new servers. And they would need to start from scratch.
I for one wouldn't mind rebuilding my toons from scratch.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: JadeWarrior on April 19, 2019, 12:02:45 PM
They are putting out a playable version today - but it won't be stable.

Was it ever? - KIDDING!

The power of people in general, and this community has never made me feel more proud. We've gone from the darkness and there's light. What seems like a army of really smart people are out there now working away.

amazing.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Styrj on April 19, 2019, 12:04:13 PM
Amazing it is.  I'll willingly take whatever is given, even if it means my PChat toons don't transfer over.  If that is the case, we will be making toons for real!!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 19, 2019, 12:07:46 PM
I'm just wondering how many people would actually be disappointed if they found out all their progress, all their toons, just everything from "back then" would not be available on the new servers. And they would need to start from scratch.
I for one wouldn't mind rebuilding my toons from scratch.

Valid question - and I think you’d get a mixed response.

Personally speaking, I have more of an attachment to my toons in Paragon Chat than I did for my toons back when the game was still live. But, I’m fairly certain I’m in the minority of players whom are of that particular mindset.

I’m trying to abide by the ‘ol homage of: you get what you get and you don’t get upset. Really, I’ll take it however I can get it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Crimson-Oriole on April 19, 2019, 12:12:02 PM
Valid question - and I think you’d get a mixed response.

Personally speaking, I have more of an attachment to my toons in Paragon Chat than I did for my toons back when the game was still live. But, I’m fairly certain I’m in the minority of players whom are of that particular mindset.

I’m trying to abide by the ‘ol homage of: you get what you get and you don’t get upset. Really, I’ll take it however I can get it.

Count me as one that doesn't mind restarting from scratch.  I have matured greatly since my late teens when I started playing.  I am intrigued to see what my characters would be like this many years later.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Primus1 on April 19, 2019, 12:34:41 PM
I'm just wondering how many people would actually be disappointed if they found out all their progress, all their toons, just everything from "back then" would not be available on the new servers. And they would need to start from scratch.
I for one wouldn't mind rebuilding my toons from scratch.

If I want to salvage anything, it would be the names of those toons because if the database was reloaded, I'm sure my account would be in limbo and I wouldn't be able to acquire the names.
I have 3 accounts and many level 50 toons.
I don't mind starting over at all.  To me this is a rebirth, I don't need my old toons all levelled up. I want them at LEVEL 1.
Time to play the game again for the first time. I want that feeling again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Garble on April 19, 2019, 12:40:55 PM
Before all this it had never even occurred to me that it would be possible to restore my old toons.

While I would love them, they aren't necessary, and I would likely spend all my time making new toons anyway (much like I did back in the day).
(that said, I did invest a lot of time crafting enhancements on some of my core toons)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 12:41:36 PM
I want to roam Atlas and whack clocks. Then move to Perez Park and street sweep. Once I hit 12 or so head to Steel and run the TF. Once that's over off the Skyway for that TF.

Get to Talos and level up so I can street sweep in DA.

I could grind Sewer TF's and zip through but the 1st one back I want to savour the game - like sipping a fine whiskey, wet the lips, let it warm the tongue and then take a sip. Let it feel warm all the way down - not toss back a cheap shot of Jack Daniels.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Nightmarer on April 19, 2019, 12:50:49 PM
I feel sorry for the Hellions, all this time in Atlas Park without being abused by every superhero wannabe and in a few days, back to being mercilessly beaten up. Very interesting news abiut the MAX thingie, I'm sure we will see amazing costumes given the level of imagination and creativity shown by the community in general.

Also, from now on I will refer to Leandro as "Messi", anyone who enjoys football (I mean proper football, that sport you americans call "soccer" for some reason) will understand  ;D
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Styrj on April 19, 2019, 12:53:46 PM
Ironwolf, I'm with you on that score, although, I will toss down a shot of Jack Daniels Honey Whiskey (good stuff!).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 12:54:03 PM
I want to roam Atlas and whack clocks. Then move to Perez Park and street sweep. Once I hit 12 or so head to Steel and run the TF. Once that's over off the Skyway for that TF.

Get to Talos and level up so I can street sweep in DA.

I could grind Sewer TF's and zip through but the 1st one back I want to savour the game - like sipping a fine whiskey, wet the lips, let it warm the tongue and then take a sip. Let it feel warm all the way down - not toss back a cheap shot of Jack Daniels.

Pretty much my approach.  Though I'll confess loving Striga Isle 'stress test' missions with the Council in those Warehouse/ship missions.  (Along the way...)

Atlas.  Perez.  Steel.  Street sweeping.  And a juicy TF.

Talos.  Sweeping.  M' yes.   (Those pairs of sorcs and bashing Warriors...)

As for whiskey?

https://bunnahabhain.com

That's my favourite chest warmer.  Good to share with 'a companion.'  ;)

Though after 5 whiskeys...I recall being somewhat flushed...and syllables more difficult to wrestle with...

Though the beading, amber colour, smell (helps your mind onto that 'other' dimension...where gravity doesn't count...unless you try to walk) and tongue warming?  Compelling.  Intoxicating stuff.  Any how...lol.

The Edinburgh Whiskey 'tour/experience' is worth doing if you ever make it to Scotland.

Like you say, the game will be something to savour.  :)

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 12:55:15 PM
I feel sorry for the Hellions, all this time in Atlas Park without being abused by every superhero wannabe and in a few days, back to being mercilessly beaten up. Very interesting news abiut the MAX thingie, I'm sure we will see amazing costumes given the level of imagination and creativity shown by the community in general.

Also, from now on I will refer to Leandro as "Messi", anyone who enjoys football (I mean proper football, that sport you americans call "soccer" for some reason) will understand  ;D

Yes.  'Football.' 

Aye.  Leandro could be 'Messi.' ;)

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 19, 2019, 12:55:40 PM
Makes sense!

Does that mean all of our Paragon Chat toons will transfer over? Again, if not and/or if you don't know, I totally understand.

No. From the point of view of a real server, a PChat character is not much more than a costume and a badge list. You could export your costumes to .costume files, but any costumes that couldn't be supported by the standard costume creator would not work on a real server. Badges and such would have to be earned from scratch on each individual server.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 19, 2019, 01:05:15 PM
I'm very interested in the fact that there are TWO apparently unrelated sources of the source code and apparently that has made distribution possible at this time.  I don't need the backstory, and in fact it's probably better that I never know, but intriguing.  I have my own personal guesses on why Leandro is the face on this... which I suspect has to do with physical location.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 01:06:02 PM
It hasn't been worked out yet what build is going to be the most stable.

They are patching the i24 one because that is the source everyone downloaded yesterday. From what I saw in Discord the next step will be to setup the i25 build - this afternoon/evening - blame me for nagging Leandro to go to work. Then see what changes were made and how stable it is. Why not jump into i25 right away?

Well i24 was running for thousands of players quite well - so take the base and then slowly add in the changes making it more stable and problem free. Once you have that done - development can begin and server code passed along with the bundled launcher.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 01:10:31 PM
I'm very interested in the fact that there are TWO apparently unrelated sources of the source code and apparently that has made distribution possible at this time.  I don't need the backstory, and in fact it's probably better that I never know, but intriguing.  I have my own personal guesses on why Leandro is the face on this... which I suspect has to do with physical location.
At least 2.

That was my point yesterday - the source of the code isn't clear because at least 2 different ones were there. Also the mission and character data is separate and not on yesterdays source. The way to look at it is that the i24 code is a complete SEGS setup. No missions, no characters but a working server with powers and travel.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Kheprera on April 19, 2019, 01:11:15 PM
I still even have my Mids. Pulled it up the other day to check out a build for some RP.

Yes, my SG has kept with RP all this time. Old characters retired, and new ones created as we did world hopping. But home will always be home.

Always be Prime.  ;D

And for those interested, http://www.cohplanner.com/ (http://www.cohplanner.com/) The mids site is still up.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 01:22:24 PM
Hmmm, my Paragon Chat characters were mainly just fun characters I made that were homages to pop culture icons and maybe some facsimiles of my CoH characters.

I had a lot of L50's and the thought of getting them back intact or mostly intact is great.

Plus I had a bunch of L1's I had rolled up and were standing by to start when they announced the shutdown so I never started them. Those I wouldn't mind starting up again at L1 but I'd also love to have my army back.

I want to take the L1's and start sweeping the streets of Atlas but I also want to reactivate my L50's and go stomp some giant monsters. :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Garble on April 19, 2019, 01:32:52 PM
I made a point to get a lvl 50 for each AT, then I started playing around to find combos I wanted to try. And I used my first 50 (an Eng/Eng blaster I made when I didn't understand game mechanics) to get every new 50+ content that came out. I was an altaholic then, and I'd be an altaholic in the future. But there were a few toons I really took pride in having.

One thing I've been wondering about the Character data is how recent it is. Was it grabbed before, after or during the shutdown. I 'buried' a lot of my toons by visiting a graveyard and using the self destruct power before logging out. If I got them back, there'd be a lot of zombie smell to get out.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 01:37:03 PM
It hasn't been worked out yet what build is going to be the most stable.

They are patching the i24 one because that is the source everyone downloaded yesterday. From what I saw in Discord the next step will be to setup the i25 build - this afternoon/evening - blame me for nagging Leandro to go to work. Then see what changes were made and how stable it is. Why not jump into i25 right away?

Well i24 was running for thousands of players quite well - so take the base and then slowly add in the changes making it more stable and problem free. Once you have that done - development can begin and server code passed along with the bundled launcher.

So refine the original.  Get is stable.  Improve it.  Make it more efficient and 'play nice' with modern dev' software...

...then add in the Issue 25 changes such as the 'new' power sets etc?

But we'll get SCORE's distro' as a temp' measure...as issue 24 is refined in the interim.

(This will allow the original developer tools, e.g. modelling with Max, map creation and mission creation to possibly be dev'd or 'idiot proof' tools to be created to make new content?)

Add in Atlas 1.5 improved graphics over time.  ....and the game's Legacy is...

'Unbroken.'

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on April 19, 2019, 01:38:23 PM
Well, look who the cat just dragged in... me.  :P

I think all the bitterness and negativity floating around is quite pointless. SCORE's existence has been hinted at years ago, the only question was whether they still existed and if so - how far did they get (further than anyone thought, it seems).
So some of you got to be part of the small group involved with the private server, some didn't... and somehow that led to part of the latter acting in ways unbefitting of heroes and below the standards of most villains. I dearly hope this isn't representative of what this community has become over the years...

Come on, folks... remember how COH went out - forming one final group for one last hurrah right before the lights went out.
(https://i.imgur.com/XLxeKdb.jpg)

Re: Starting from scratch - why not. I'm not sure I still have the Sentinel backups, but I've got the costume files to remake the actual toons.  There are new stories to be told and old stories can always be retold in one way or another.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
And I used my first 50 (an Eng/Eng blaster I made when I didn't understand game mechanics)

That's how my 1st En/en started. 

In ignorance of the game mech'.

First it was blaster specialist.  Then a blapper.

Then a combo of the two.

Perma hasten was essential to the mix.  Then issue 4 happened.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 01:39:51 PM
Well, look who the cat just dragged in... me.  :P

I think all the bitterness and negativity floating around is quite pointless. SCORE's existence has been hinted at years ago, the only question was whether they still existed and if so - how far did they get (further than anyone thought, it seems).
So some of you got to be part of the small group involved with the private server, some didn't... and somehow that led to part of the latter acting in ways unbefitting of heroes and below the standards of most villains. I dearly hope this isn't representative of what this community has become over the years...

Come on, folks... remember how COH went out - forming one final group for one last hurrah right before the lights went out.
(https://i.imgur.com/XLxeKdb.jpg)

Re: Starting from scratch - why not. I'm not sure I still have the Sentinel backups, but I've got the costume files to remake the actual toons.

Ah.  The Fifth Horseman.

I thought you lost in time?

We can count our lucky stars SCORE got way further than anyone could possibly anticipate.  They still have plenty to contribute going forwards.

I'm confident the CoH Legacy was and still is, in safe hands.

All the more so.  It's easy to shout, be negative and 'hola' when it's not 'us' being nailed to the cross.  It's hard to be first on that cross.

I'm also intrigued by the 15th anniversary celebration by the 'Paragon Chat' developers...

Azrael.

PS.  An interesting screenshot.  I was sipping tea atop the Atlas Statue...at 'the end.'  (As the blimp hummed on by...)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 01:44:55 PM
I believe the character data is from i24 - not sure when. Since they kicked everyone out a couple months prior to shutdown - I would think new characters built after the shutdown announcement might not be there.

But not knowing the time period of when the image was made - no clue except i24.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Azrael on April 19, 2019, 01:46:30 PM
I believe the character data is from i24 - not sure when. Since they kicked everyone out a couple months prior to shutdown - I would think new characters built after the shutdown announcement might not be there.

But not knowing the time period of when the image was made - no clue except i24.

If my alts are part of the data that can be retrieved.  Great.

If not.  The thrill of being a 'beginner' again is exciting.

Azrael.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: GenericHero05 on April 19, 2019, 01:48:53 PM
I was always one of those players who enjoyed the chase to 50.  My first was a Blaster.  Then came my Controller which I played a ton after 50 until the brainiacs nerfed my 12 fire imps and my "perma hasten".  Then came a Scrapper.  I was always wanting to try new archetypes and new powers so starting from scratch would be just fine.

I'm not going to hit the lottery and then complain about how much I have to pay in taxes.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 19, 2019, 01:52:54 PM
It hasn't been worked out yet what build is going to be the most stable.

They are patching the i24 one because that is the source everyone downloaded yesterday. From what I saw in Discord the next step will be to setup the i25 build - this afternoon/evening - blame me for nagging Leandro to go to work. Then see what changes were made and how stable it is. Why not jump into i25 right away?

Well i24 was running for thousands of players quite well - so take the base and then slowly add in the changes making it more stable and problem free. Once you have that done - development can begin and server code passed along with the bundled launcher.

Let's see if I got this understood...

1. There is The Build (the program the runs the game server [Dev] side).
2. There is The Content (all the missions)
3. There is The Playerbase Data (the server side tracking of players, their badges, content completed, level, etc...).

Now, what about the player client? Is that part of The Build? Or a separate thing?

As far as The Build goes, 'everyone' just got the i24 Build and they're fixing it to make it playable. Meanwhile Leo has and will distribute real soon his i25 Build which he already fixed to make playable and modded a few things (making it a new 'issue', i.e., i25). Also, there may be several versions of the i24 Build floating about.

As far as The Content goes... we will soon have Leo's i25 version. And that can be back-patched into a working i24 version? Is that correct? Is there an i24 version of The Content floating about?

As far as The Playberbase Data goes.  Didn't Leo say his source went through each server and grabbed all that data and sent it to him? And Leo has to scrub that before releasing it, right? And that would make The Playerbase Date i24, unless for some reason, Leo distributes his i25 version of The Playerbase Data.

Am I in the ballpark?

-Zombie Man, keeper of guides

Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 19, 2019, 01:56:13 PM
I believe the character data is from i24 - not sure when. Since they kicked everyone out a couple months prior to shutdown - I would think new characters built after the shutdown announcement might not be there.

But not knowing the time period of when the image was made - no clue except i24.

Well, no, we do have a pretty good idea (or at least Leandro does, which I will now attempt to repeat). The database dumps were apparently taken on or shortly before 11/30, by someone taking a capture of each server one at a time. Because some people were hopping from server to server (?), they might not have picked up everyone if you transferred at an inconvenient time. No word on whether or not they grabbed Beta (or Training Room, but was anyone playing on Training Room during the closure?), so technically everything is i23 - but that's pragmatically irrelevant.

I think this is more-or-less what he's been saying, apologies if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Stupid Fanboy on April 19, 2019, 02:02:39 PM
Quote
No word on whether or not they grabbed Beta (or Training Room, but was anyone playing on Training Room during the closure?)

*raises hand*  I had Triumph and the Training Room running during the shutdown.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 02:06:12 PM
Well, no, we do have a pretty good idea (or at least Leandro does, which I will now attempt to repeat). The database dumps were apparently taken on or shortly before 11/30, by someone taking a capture of each server one at a time. Because some people were hopping from server to server (?), they might not have picked up everyone if you transferred at an inconvenient time. No word on whether or not they grabbed Beta (or Training Room, but was anyone playing on Training Room during the closure?), so technically everything is i23 - but that's pragmatically irrelevant.

I think this is more-or-less what he's been saying, apologies if I'm wrong.

I guess we will find out and that makes it all the more fun. Once the servers are up what we need is a program to move them from server to server - however that might be an issue because it would allow for viruses and trojans to ride along as well.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 19, 2019, 02:17:21 PM
*raises hand*  I had Triumph and the Training Room running during the shutdown.

What's the protocol in that case, one pant leg on? Pants to knees?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Korbian on April 19, 2019, 02:17:33 PM
Now, what about the player client? Is that part of The Build? Or a separate thing?

The i24 build is the Issue 24 release of the player client.  They are the same.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ultimate15 on April 19, 2019, 02:23:52 PM
No. From the point of view of a real server, a PChat character is not much more than a costume and a badge list. You could export your costumes to .costume files, but any costumes that couldn't be supported by the standard costume creator would not work on a real server. Badges and such would have to be earned from scratch on each individual server.

So if I exported the costumes to .costume files, would I be able to import them onto a character creator on a live server so I wouldn't have piece the costume/look together by scratch? Or is that not how that works? Hahaha I'm such a nube, I swear.

Also, I'm pretty sure none of my current costume pieces on Paragon Chat would not be supported by the 'standard' costume creator, so I think we good on that end...

ALSO PART II (and I have no idea if this is even on the table right now, so forgive my asking) do we know if there will be issues with names on the new servers? I.e. two players can't have the same character names? Lol BASICALLY I'm trying to figure out if I have to race to a server to nab all the names I want now, or if I have some time, etc...

YAY. EXCITED. GRATEFUL. THANKS. <3
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on April 19, 2019, 02:34:16 PM
Ah.  The Fifth Horseman.
I thought you lost in time?
Not that easy to get rid of, although I have a habit of wandering off to keep my mind occupied - as a result of which my gaming resume now features half a decade of "giant mecha pilot".  :P

Quote
PS.  An interesting screenshot.  I was sipping tea atop the Atlas Statue...at 'the end.'  (As the blimp hummed on by...)
I've taken a lot of screens that day: https://imgur.com/a/So2qt

So if I exported the costumes to .costume files, would I be able to import them onto a character creator on a live server so I wouldn't have piece the costume/look together by scratch? Or is that not how that works?
Assuming nothing broke compatibility with them - which should not be the case - then yes.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 02:36:26 PM
The i24 build is the Issue 24 release of the player client.  They are the same.
I think he means player data.

There are multiple parts:

1. market server - they ignored it and on Leandro's server you just use influence to buy IO's
2. player data - what character you had and the AT
3. mission data - separate from the client
4. player client - the server build that lets you spawn and use powers and has the maps.

there is likely more I have missed but those are the ones we need to run the game.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 19, 2019, 02:37:36 PM

So some of you got to be part of the small group involved with the private server, some didn't... and somehow that led to part of the latter acting in ways unbefitting of heroes and below the standards of most villains. I dearly hope this isn't representative of what this community has become over the years...

Come on, folks... remember how COH went out - forming one final group for one last hurrah right before the lights went out.


Hey Fifth, how's it goin'

Yeah my point on the sources is that it wasn't LEANDRO (and company) just sitting on the Source code.  They were using it, maybe others were also, the positive about this whole brouhaha is that it got folks together who were able to move the ball on this -- at a pretty nasty price, but all's well and all that.

I'm just sorry Leandro (and others) had to put up with that crap
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 19, 2019, 02:38:14 PM
I don't like calling SCoRE's modifications "issue 25"... only because it's my impression the only did things with power sets, as opposed to adding storylines like the ones planned: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lore_AMA/Sorted

So if I exported the costumes to .costume files, would I be able to import them onto a character creator on a live server so I wouldn't have piece the costume/look together by scratch? Or is that not how that works? Hahaha I'm such a nube, I swear.

Also, I'm pretty sure none of my current costume pieces on Paragon Chat would not be supported by the 'standard' costume creator, so I think we good on that end...

ALSO PART II (and I have no idea if this is even on the table right now, so forgive my asking) do we know if there will be issues with names on the new servers? I.e. two players can't have the same character names? Lol BASICALLY I'm trying to figure out if I have to race to a server to nab all the names I want now, or if I have some time, etc...

YAY. EXCITED. GRATEFUL. THANKS. <3

My understanding is that costumes should work as long as they use standard pieces... I think the problem would be if you created one that uses some sort of unlock, and your new character hasn't achieved the qualifications - the trial that unlocked epaulets, for example. Of course, I'm sure some private servers will allow anything goes for costumes.

Naming is a good question... it *would* be nice if new servers moved to the current Cryptic system of character@global, so only globalst are forced to be unique.

Also, from now on I will refer to Leandro as "Messi", anyone who enjoys football (I mean proper football, that sport you americans call "soccer" for some reason) will understand  ;D

"For some reason"? The British invented the term "soccer," not our fault they just wanted to be contrary as soon as we started using it.

Edit: Due to the migration of posts from "New Efforts" to this thread, the quotes above no longer link properly. But they are unmodified, and the originals can be found in this thread (I don't want to put the effort in right now).
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Korbian on April 19, 2019, 02:39:23 PM
So if I exported the costumes to .costume files, would I be able to import them onto a character creator on a live server so I wouldn't have piece the costume/look together by scratch? Or is that not how that works? Hahaha I'm such a nube, I swear.

If it works like everything else has so far, you should be able to just move the "Costumes" folder or copy its contents to the new "Costumes" folder.  I have been moving around mine from back when servers were live for six years now.  Don't worry.  We're all noobs again, mostly.  We'll figure it all out together once we get our grubby little paws on it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Styrj on April 19, 2019, 02:45:34 PM
Will PChat or PChat (Dev) be used for distro (not the it really matters i guess)?  Just curious.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Mister Hassenpheffer on April 19, 2019, 02:45:50 PM
Also for the costume crowd - using the 2012 version of 3D max - some are already working on new costumes for the game.

I would love to be a part of THAT action!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Shibboleth on April 19, 2019, 02:47:42 PM
How would characters be associated with their creators if no player personal data was kept?

Or is the idea everyone would have access to any existing character?

I suppose one could release characters to people with Sentinel backups but that would need to occur before a mass dump with those characters being excluded from a dump.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Bill Z Bubba on April 19, 2019, 02:56:30 PM
I am confused and befuddled. Yet excited and frazzled. Can I help?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 02:59:24 PM
I am confused and befuddled. Yet excited and frazzled. Can I help?
Download discord.

Type in City of Heroes
Go to the admin and ask to be added to chat if you are a coder - only approved list of people can get in there but anyone can read what they are doing. It is cool to see how quickly the work is done and the changes being made.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 19, 2019, 03:06:16 PM
Let's see if I got this understood...

I didn't see any specific responses to this post, so I'll have a go at it.

1. There is The Build (the program the runs the game server [Dev] side).
2. There is The Content (all the missions)
3. There is The Playerbase Data (the server side tracking of players, their badges, content completed, level, etc...).

That's it in a nutshell.

Now, what about the player client? Is that part of The Build? Or a separate thing?

From what Codewalker has said in the past when discussing Paragon Chat, the client and server are built from the same source tree. The Build should include the client as well. I think it likely that we'll be seeing custom clients in short order, especially when people start trying to turn on the built-in developer/admin commands.

As far as The Build goes, 'everyone' just got the i24 Build and they're fixing it to make it playable. Meanwhile Leo has and will distribute real soon his i25 Build which he already fixed to make playable and modded a few things (making it a new 'issue', i.e., i25). Also, there may be several versions of the i24 Build floating about.

There are rumors of a second leaked Build, that is a different version; how different is unknown given that it's just rumors. If anyone knows who has it and what they have, they're not spilling the beans. Regardless, with as much hacking and modding as is currently happening, there are bound to be many different variations of the "I24 Build" very soon.

As far as The Content goes... we will soon have Leo's i25 version. And that can be back-patched into a working i24 version? Is that correct? Is there an i24 version of The Content floating about?

The above is correct. The "back-patching" is what will take time. It's akin to decompiling a program and trying to generate pristine original source code form the compiled assembly language code. As far as anyone knows, there are no other version of I24 Content floating about; apparently even Leandro didn't keep the older versions of his own content.

As far as The Playberbase Data goes.  Didn't Leo say his source went through each server and grabbed all that data and sent it to him? And Leo has to scrub that before releasing it, right? And that would make The Playerbase Date i24, unless for some reason, Leo distributes his i25 version of The Playerbase Data.

All of that is correct. "Scrubbing" is relative, in this case. Part of the point of releasing that database would be to make it possible for past players to identify their data and recover it. That, necessarily, means that it contains personally identifiable information (probably not more than a person's old login name, but that's still "sensitive" info). That means he'll be more careful about how that data is handled compared to just releasing the source files.

Am I in the ballpark?

-Zombie Man, keeper of guides

Yep!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 03:18:59 PM
To clear things up a bit - a lot of the questions about what source code and so on are intentionally vague.

No one wants there to be a chance to back track and find out who did what.

Servers soon - will magically appear thanks to Nemesis plots to destroy the world being foiled. Let's stick with that plan.

Nemesis snapped his fingers - time to undo the snap.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 19, 2019, 03:23:35 PM
How would characters be associated with their creators if no player personal data was kept?
My outsider understanding is that the character database has account names, but no other information. So if you remember your login account name and/or your global handle, your characters can be found.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 03:25:04 PM
This has been an entertaining few days.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: JadeWarrior on April 19, 2019, 03:30:00 PM
This has been an entertaining few days.

Understatement.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 19, 2019, 03:31:18 PM
This has been an entertaining few days.

That's one word for it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Shibboleth on April 19, 2019, 03:32:48 PM
My outsider understanding is that the character database has account names, but no other information. So if you remember your login account name and/or your global handle, your characters can be found.

Most of my account names since CoH shut down have been the name of my favorite character, but what my CoH account names was...oh wait...I think I remember.

Ultimately it does not really matter to me if someone else is playing a dupe of one of my characters. That would really be a form of flattery, no?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 03:34:14 PM
That's one word for it.

I think that it might have caused a few whiplash injuries from the various and frequent changes of opinions.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 19, 2019, 03:41:28 PM
I think that it might have caused a few whiplash injuries from the various and frequent changes of opinions.

I'd be lying if I claimed that the past few days have not severely tested my opinions on whether the "CoH Community" is actually a "community" at all.

In other news, it appears that Pohsyb put in an appearance this morning on the Discord and offered to be available for advice.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Bill Z Bubba on April 19, 2019, 03:45:18 PM
Download discord.

Type in City of Heroes
Go to the admin and ask to be added to chat if you are a coder - only approved list of people can get in there but anyone can read what they are doing. It is cool to see how quickly the work is done and the changes being made.

On discord now and reading. I'm just a systems analyst, college dropout with no certs. Reading through the build-compile-discussion, I'm under qualified.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: undeadsuits on April 19, 2019, 03:46:16 PM
I'd be lying if I claimed that the past few days have not severely tested my opinions on whether the "CoH Community" is actually a "community" at all..

It's always been a community. But now the community finally has the tools to play the game that were previously kept from them by people outside the community for their own enjoyment.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 03:46:27 PM
I'd be lying if I claimed that the past few days have not severely tested my opinions on whether the "CoH Community" is actually a "community" at all.

In other news, it appears that Pohsyb put in an appearance this morning on the Discord and offered to be available for advice.

It's always been a diverse community, but that's also been its strength - with the amount of love that people had - and still have - for the game, this was inevitable one day.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 03:48:48 PM
On discord now and reading. I'm just a systems analyst, college dropout with no certs. Reading through the build-compile-discussion, I'm under qualified.

You'd be over-qualified for Champions Online.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 19, 2019, 04:00:22 PM
Alright, April 15th and forward is split off of New Efforts.

Carry on.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Garble on April 19, 2019, 04:07:24 PM
Bold move. But I think the right one.

Thank you.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 04:09:49 PM
Alright, April 15th and forward is split off of New Efforts.

Carry on.

The thread title should help get villain players back in the swing of things, as it totally ignores the red side :P
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 04:10:49 PM
I believe the character data is from i24 - not sure when. Since they kicked everyone out a couple months prior to shutdown - I would think new characters built after the shutdown announcement might not be there.

But not knowing the time period of when the image was made - no clue except i24.

Then that means about 98% of my alts should be intact.

Question: since alts were scattered among the servers and some people liked to have the same name on each server.... is it safe to presume that names will be unique and that we may all have some name adjustments to make? :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 04:11:10 PM
Bold move. But I think the right one.

Thank you.

The boldest of bold moves is the fact that if they have access to the complete code, then at least one of the Paragon devs did the right thing before the shutdown.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: VDG on April 19, 2019, 04:14:29 PM
Just surprised I'm seeing something more than  ;) &  :)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 04:15:38 PM
Then that means about 98% of my alts should be intact.

Question: since alts were scattered among the servers and some people liked to have the same name on each server.... is it safe to presume that names will be unique and that we may all have some name adjustments to make? :)

I know that names are obviously important, but they're overshadowed by the fact that the community might be able to actually play the game again - I don't even think that too many people would be bothered if they had to level up again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 04:22:00 PM
OKay, ever since the news hit that the game is close to returning, I like many people have been chomping at the bit to get back into the game, rebuild/repair old alts, make new ones and street sweep, fight giant monsters, etc etc.

Then this morning while working out it hit me......I was already falling back into "MUST PLAY COH NOTHING ELSE MATTERS!!! COH! COH! COH! AAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!" mindset.

So then I sat down and did some thinking.......and I suggest everyone pause and think for a few minutes to.

1. Like it or not, some time has passed and we have all changed. Hopefully for the better.

2. I have lost a metric ton of weight, wearing medium sized shirts and size 32 pants and a sweet biker jacket that I kept on a hanger in the closet for the past few years to taunt/remind myself to keep going.

3. Junk food is long since purged from my blood and diet, the thought of drinking soda actually makes me queasy now, which is good. 

4. Other early signs of possible potential health issues have been nipped and all tests are great with only one thing left to adjust which will take time and maintaining my diet/exercise.
Also I accessed my internal options menu and set myself to 35 or else I would have leveled to 50 last year.

5. I WILL NOT revert to the health I was at prior to shut down.   

6. In regard to the above, perhaps the shutdown did myself and possibly a few others a favor.

Will I return? YES
Will I restore my army of incarnates and make new alts? YES
Will I have fun? YES
Will I make certain that I have a better balance of game vs. life/health? oh YES, yes indeed.

So basically everyone, just sit back a minute and reflect.  yes we are all happy the game is on the way back and that the light at the end of the tunnel is NOT the lamp of the onrushing train.

Just pace yourselves. This time the game may well last forever and you will have all the time in the world to accomplish your in game goals.  Just don't neglect your life goals and needs too.

"Because reality is real.”
― Ernest Cline, Ready Player One
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Thunder Glove on April 19, 2019, 04:25:52 PM
... all I know is that this new topic title got this song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZMmPWTwTHc) stuck in my head.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Tahquitz on April 19, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
The thread title should help get villain players back in the swing of things, as it totally ignores the red side :P

NCSoft did that when they "merged" City of Villains into the same product years back.  Don't blame me.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 19, 2019, 04:29:52 PM
To clear things up a bit - a lot of the questions about what source code and so on are intentionally vague.

No one wants there to be a chance to back track and find out who did what.

Servers soon - will magically appear thanks to Nemesis plots to destroy the world being foiled. Let's stick with that plan.

Nemesis snapped his fingers - time to undo the snap.

Hear, hear!  As always let's avoid discussing that which should not be discussed.
And be happy that it appears to be returning our city!
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 19, 2019, 04:33:02 PM
My outsider understanding is that the character database has account names, but no other information. So if you remember your login account name and/or your global handle, your characters can be found.

And if you REALLY want to steal and play, say Eiko-chan's characters instead of your own on some server, you'll probably be able to with a bit of work and deception... as to why anybody would WANT to... well, you got me.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 19, 2019, 04:35:21 PM
I think he means player data.

There are multiple parts:

1. market server - they ignored it and on Leandro's server you just use influence to buy IO's
2. player data - what character you had and the AT
3. mission data - separate from the client
4. player client - the server build that lets you spawn and use powers and has the maps.

there is likely more I have missed but those are the ones we need to run the game.

Thanks for your reply and to others who've responsed, but, I'm still a bit confused about one thing: From the point of view of a player, I downloaded a client which handled a bunch of stuff, but, that client connected to a "server" which adjucated whether my stuff really happened in the game world and what effects my doings had, e.g., a Hellion died (poor homie!). So, in my mind there are two major "programs", namely, "the client" and "the server." (I realize each part had their own pile of processes that they they were taking care of: chat, market, etc...).

So, when, e.g., a cleaned up version of i24 gets released, then that includes both the player's client and the server's server (what I would consider to be the real game engine and the Dev's side of the equation). Right?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 04:37:17 PM
And if you REALLY want to steal and play, say Eiko-chan's characters instead of your own on some server, you'll probably be able to with a bit of work and deception... as to why anybody would WANT to... well, you got me.

There were always a few idiots out there - but I think if you told people that the only way that they could genuinely play CoH again was to have a number instead of a name, and start at level 1 again, most of them would still jump at the chance.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Zombie Man on April 19, 2019, 04:41:09 PM
Regarding leveling up:

Anyone running a server, and knows how to code it could easily grant level 50 status to any character, right? The devs did that on a test server once so that people could test the level 50 uber enhancements.

"See the contact NotGoku to be given enough XP to be level 50."

"See the contact ScroogeMcQuack to be given a hundred million XP"

"See the store to buy anything you want. Everything is priced at 1 inf."
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: bugzee on April 19, 2019, 04:47:36 PM
Yep, I'd have zero problem starting at level 1 again. In a sense that is kind of fun, I won't have rich alts that can help me zoom past levels... It will almost be like when I first started playing the game in 2004. I am cautiously optimistic about the legal issues however. So I am not going to get involved on the technical side until I see what the NCSoft reaction will be. Hoping for the best.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 19, 2019, 04:47:57 PM
There were always a few idiots out there - but I think if you told people that the only way that they could genuinely play CoH again was to have a number instead of a name, and start at level 1 again, most of them would still jump at the chance.

I played about 90% solo and the thing I most enjoyed was the content starting at one and mostly street sweeping going up to about 30 -- I'd usually drop playing before getting heavily into Peregrine and I had a psychotic case of alt-itis... So I fully expect to start at level 1 with entirely new characters.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 04:49:06 PM
Thanks for your reply and to others who've responsed, but, I'm still a bit confused about one thing: From the point of view of a player, I downloaded a client which handled a bunch of stuff, but, that client connected to a "server" which adjucated whether my stuff really happened in the game world and what effects my doings had, e.g., a Hellion died (poor homie!). So, in my mind there are two major "programs", namely, "the client" and "the server." (I realize each part had their own pile of processes that they they were taking care of: chat, market, etc...).

So, when, e.g., a cleaned up version of i24 gets released, then that includes both the player's client and the server's server (what I would consider to be the real game engine and the Dev's side of the equation). Right?

1. You had client side stuff that was on your own computer - basically Paragon Chat that was stored locally to speed things up.
2. you logged into an Account Server - that verified who you were and then you were passed to -
3. the game/map server that let you move around the city
4. the mission server kept track of what missions were tied to your character and how far you had gotten.
5. the character server talked to your client side and the account server so it knew what character to populate

The mission server kept track of the NPC's and how they responded to you.

You have layers of servers that spoke to each other but because of the limitations of that times hardware some of it is badly aged now and works VERY slow. Talking to one of the coders working on the new i24 server he said that the way it was setup it would store the entire instance in memory when you logged into a map. That is not needed now and they are fixing that along with a thousand other things - like adding LUA databases.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 04:52:58 PM
One adjustment I wouldn't mind seeing would be for everything from the Paragon Store to be folded into the actual game where it was suitable - like costume parts going into the costume creator, and so on - and for the rest of the store items, along with thee Paragon Rewards, to be added to a vendor or contact - someone like Ms. Liberty, for example.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ironwolf on April 19, 2019, 04:55:03 PM
One adjustment I wouldn't mind seeing would be for everything from the Paragon Store to be folded into the actual game where it was suitable - like costume parts going into the costume creator, and so on - and for the rest of the store items, along with thee Paragon Rewards, to be added to a vendor or contact - someone like Ms. Liberty, for example.
Leandro said the store doesn't exist as it was and all of it was converted to buy stuff with Inf.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Sinistar on April 19, 2019, 04:58:29 PM
Leandro said the store doesn't exist as it was and all of it was converted to buy stuff with Inf.

Excellent.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 04:58:36 PM
Leandro said the store doesn't exist as it was and all of it was converted to buy stuff with Inf.

I used to be pretty keen on the Paragon Store at the time, but since the shutdown, I've seen how badly that kind of thing can warp and corrupt the design of a game.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Ohioknight on April 19, 2019, 05:00:12 PM
Memory coming back -- somebody mentioned the blimp and I went OMG THE BLIMP... How could I forget the BLIMP!   

I'm just remembering that a few releases before close they changed low-level Atlas content so you had instantly regen-ing Hellion mobs (and others) in some parts of Atlas and if you didn't run those missions, they were eternally stealing those crates or starting fires and there was nothing you could do about it.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: saipaman on April 19, 2019, 05:03:08 PM
Sentinel should still work?
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Arkasas on April 19, 2019, 05:03:43 PM
Leandro said the store doesn't exist as it was and all of it was converted to buy stuff with Inf.

On his server, but I don't think anyone's talked about what'll happen with I24F or any other forks that come up from the source code. (Even though in most cases, that's the right call...)
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 19, 2019, 05:05:04 PM
And if you REALLY want to steal and play, say Eiko-chan's characters instead of your own on some server, you'll probably be able to with a bit of work and deception... as to why anybody would WANT to...
Murderous schoolgirls with robotic legions for everyone! Why WOULDN'T you want to play the biggest baddest villain the world has ever seen?!  ;)

The thread title should help get villain players back in the swing of things, as it totally ignores the red side :P
Aww, GG, did you remember? Was that line for me? <3
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 05:11:04 PM
Aww, GG, did you remember? Was that line for me? <3

It was more of a general reference to the old forum meme that the devs ignored redside :P
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: slickriptide on April 19, 2019, 05:11:13 PM
So, when, e.g., a cleaned up version of i24 gets released, then that includes both the player's client and the server's server (what I would consider to be the real game engine and the Dev's side of the equation). Right?

Maybe... I'm being non-committal because I've seen claims that the code tree released by Leandro does not, in fact, have the client build files in it. I don't factually know if that's true or not. If it's true, then folks would continue to use the same I24 client they use for Icon and Paragon Chat.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 19, 2019, 05:16:25 PM
Maybe... I'm being non-committal because I've seen claims that the code tree released by Leandro does not, in fact, have the client build files in it. I don't factually know if that's true or not. If it's true, then folks would continue to use the same I24 client they use for Icon and Paragon Chat.
The source code released does not have client files. Largely due to the fact that ownership and distribution of the client files has never been illegal and Paragon Chat is using essentially the same client files as the live game did, somewhat modified for use.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Eiko-chan on April 19, 2019, 05:19:15 PM
It was more of a general reference to the old forum meme that the devs ignored redside :P
That's okay, GG. You might not remember me, but I remember you.   :'(
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Golden Girl on April 19, 2019, 05:21:48 PM
That's okay, GG. You might not remember me, but I remember you.   :'(

I remember you - and your perverse delusions that the Loyalists were the good guys :P
But let's just be happy that everyone - blue, red and yellow sides - now has a more than good chance of playing the game that they love again.
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Vee on April 19, 2019, 05:24:06 PM
And if you REALLY want to steal and play, say Eiko-chan's characters instead of your own on some server, you'll probably be able to with a bit of work and deception... as to why anybody would WANT to... well, you got me.

Probably not, but there'd be a line around the block to reroll Golden Girl as something other than MA/Regen  :P
Title: Re: The Shot Heard Around Paragon City - SCORE Public Release
Post by: Felderburg on April 19, 2019, 05:24:39 PM
Who's going to upgrade the Paragon Wiki to cover all these unofficial modifications to the game?