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Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: Blackgrue on September 20, 2012, 04:27:00 PM

Title: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blackgrue on September 20, 2012, 04:27:00 PM
On a whim I looked at NCSoft's stock price. It took a nosedive after the vigil. It's still below guild-wars 2's release prices.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blackgrue on September 20, 2012, 04:34:02 PM
In addition, Nexon (publisher of Maple Story) apperently owns about 15% of NCsoft, I suggest sending some of our well reasoned words to them as well, they bought said 15% in June.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on September 20, 2012, 04:36:57 PM
(Mr. Burns) Excellent! (/Mr. Burns)  8)


Is there any particular reason why there hasn't been a call for another of those Unity Protests?

Or to borrow a Captain Jack Sparrow line -

Are we simply waiting for "the opportune moment"?


Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 20, 2012, 05:03:02 PM
It'll probably rebound. Surely it spooked some of the more timid investors though. Still pretty funny though.

I guess riots will affect prices, regardless of which dimension of existence they occur in.   :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on September 20, 2012, 05:05:29 PM
(Mr. Burns) Excellent! (/Mr. Burns)  8)


Is there any particular reason why there hasn't been a call for another of those Unity Protests?

Or to borrow a Captain Jack Sparrow line -

Are we simply waiting for "the opportune moment"?

Positron TF events today and Saturday.

And then there's other options, like the e-mail.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Teege on September 20, 2012, 05:14:42 PM
If we don't have one planned we should. Crashing a server and hitting that many AP instances again I think would be huge.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: jacknomind on September 20, 2012, 05:37:57 PM
Troughs follow peaks.  As others have said, don't read too much into this.  I imagine it's more a combination of short-term investors selling off assets for a quick profit and the announcement of a temporary halt on GW2 sales (a good decision, but not one that will make investors very happy).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blackgrue on September 21, 2012, 10:30:55 AM
Stock still hasn't recovered, I still think the timing of it taking a nosedive after the unity rally is pretty damning personally, but meh. I'm too psychologically invested in CoH not to hold out hope.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Shadowe on September 21, 2012, 11:27:18 AM
I work in finance where stock market fluctuations matter in a big way, and I have to agree with Gangrel, really. There are so many factors that affect share prices, it's almost unreal. The trick is to know what a share price actually means, more than anything else, and in simple terms, it's the price to buy a share, but the other important direction to come at it from is that it is also the price at which shares are sold. It drops when people are selling them.

Why do people sell shares?

Lack of confidence in the company.
Prediction of upcoming market conditions because of government (any government) announcements.
To liquidate assets.

The last two have no bearing on our specific situation, but the first one is a biggie. A drop in share price can indicate that investors believe that the company is making poor decisions, so they're trying to get out while the going is good.

For a company like NCsoft to see a depression in share price right after the launch of a major new product is something of a surprise (when viewed in isolation), and the announced closure of CoH could certainly be one of the reasons, but it is just as likely that the Korean government made a tax or budget announcement, or that the Korean Won is a weak currency right now which will also depress the share value.

Would anyone mind seeing if there's a Korean equivalent to the FTSE 100 or the Dow Jones indices, then compare the NCsoft share price to that? That will tell a more accurate story.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Shadowe on September 21, 2012, 12:19:40 PM
Okay, on 31 Aug 2012, the KOSPI closed down at 1905.12, and on the same day NCsoft shares closed down at 252,500 KWon.

Yesterday, the KOSPI closed at 1990.33, and NCsoft ended at 256,000 KWon.

Which mean that over the same period of time, Korea as a whole has increased by 4.77%, and NCsoft has grown by 1.39%.

That really doesn't tell us very much in and of itself, but if we go back just one more day, we get closing prices on the KOSPI of 1906.38 and NCsoft at 254,500.

This tells us that the change from before the CoH closure announcement was Korea at 4.40% growth and NCsoft at 0.59%

Such a limited set of data really doesn't tell a huge story, however we know that on the day of the announcement NCsoft dropped, then bounced back by Sep 7th to a high they hadn't seen since June 25th, and has been bouncing around a steadily decreasing figure since then. NCsoft is higher now than they were through most of the month of August, but while Korea as a whole has bounced back nicely from a dip around the 5th of Sept (climbing ever since, with fluctuations), NCsoft hit a peak on the 7th and has been seeing a downward trend almost exactly the opposite of the KOSPI.

So, what does all of this mean?

Honestly, I don't know. However it is not an unreasonable premise to suggest that because even though GW2 sales have been healthy, NCsoft is still going down, while Korea as a whole is trending upwards, then the negative press being generated off the back of the CoH closure announcement is actually hurting their bottom line.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blackgrue on September 26, 2012, 11:18:19 PM
Update.

Stock continues its downward slip. It's still too early to mark it as a trend, but dammit I need something to believe in.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Chaos Ex Machina on September 27, 2012, 02:12:15 AM
Stock value is primarily determined through perception.  There is not a way to measure the impact of the efforts.

You should actually try to convince INVESTORS that the efforts have an effect and I think a decline after the gigantic launch can be a rather good argument.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on September 27, 2012, 02:51:06 AM
In addition, Nexon (publisher of Maple Story) apperently owns about 15% of NCsoft, I suggest sending some of our well reasoned words to them as well, they bought said 15% in June.

Which might have more effect than first glance might indicate. On 8/27, All Things posted an article (http://allthingsd.com/20120827/exclusive-daniel-kim-stepping-down-as-nexon-america-ceo/) about Min Kim, the SVP of Live Games at Nexon, taking over as the CEO of Nexon America. The last paragraph in the article suggests that Mr. Kim has an attitude that may make him receptive to a plea to help save CoH:

Quote
Min Kim said he sees a big opportunity lying ahead in the traditional games space, where people play games for years at a time and for long stretches every month. As a younger gaming demographic grows up, and moves on from other experiences, such as Disney’s Club Penguin, “we’ll be in the sweet spot,” he said.

"...play games for years at a time and for long stretches every month..." describes CoH to a T, doesn't it?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 03:23:12 AM
Somebody remind me tomorrow to look into Mr. Kim a bit more closely. I have no idea if I can make a contact with him, but I have at least one idea on how I might try. (Tenuous at best.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Sin Stalker on September 27, 2012, 03:35:29 AM
Just to point out something *slightly* related here...

Apple stock has dropped quite a bit since the launch of the iPhone 5.

It is a good phone, it has some issues (same as the iPhone 4S. It sold a boat load (although apparently not as much as investors were thinking). Why is the apple stock price falling?

Side note: even "antennagate" for the iPhone4 didn't drop share prices by this large amounr....

Its no real improvement. Apple always does this too. They come out with a great product. You see a cheaper more widely used version (android) come out of it. Then Apple stops innovation and sticks within the newly created "box". Macs vs PCs. Then the laptop wars. Now its the smartphones. The one edge Apple had with the iphone was the relatively easy user interface but android has been getting and closer to this. Once Apple comes out with a new great concept or improvement, something that really sets the tone, their stocks will shoot back up. Until then, they will remain profitable but slowly shrinking sales back to what they were before. Kind of like their own mini-bubble that slowly let out air instead of popping lol.

The only way I see this really applying to NCsoft would be to get the word out more. Create dummy accounts and protest on other NCsoft gaming forums and servers. Create new characters and protest any new characters leaving the tutorial and being a "scab" or whatever the traitor term is. Not for a long time, but just enough for more gaming blogs and sites to take notice and put out stories about it.

We wouldn't just be refusing to part take in any NCsoft games but we would actually be protesting and boycotting the company. Any protesting in game(coh) is the same as gathering a bunch of friends and protesting in your backyard. To really get their attention, you have to go to their territory. You go to the lobby of the corporate headquarters or sit on the sidewalk in front of the courthouse, etc, etc. In this case since we are scattered across the globe, it would be there "living" games.

I'd be down if someone wants to organize a mass fake account creation and protesting on other NCsoft games. Wouldn't need to be around the clock now that I think of it... All we would need to do is find out when the each NCsoft game is at their peak play time. Then hit each game whenever that play time is. So for example, from 5 to 10 on friday for Aion, 7 to 11 on sunday for guild wars, etc, etc. None of their pay to play games but the ones that are free to download and try. The ones that have free trials, etc, etc.

IF we could get any attention, like NCsoft having to suspend their free trials for a short time or something, would be a great success in getting attention. And really that's what all this is about. We need attention like a kid with ADHD meaning attention bad or good... but within reason of course. Hm, maybe I should create a post and copy and paste this idea in it?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 03:44:39 AM
Hmm.  Folks, anyone got an address for Nexxon?  Their big money-maker is Maple Story.  I could make the case CoH functioned rather like Maple Story for many of the players (the RPers specifically) with the rich ability to social-network within the game itself.  We might be able to do a back-door on NCSoft via Nexxon.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 03:51:41 AM
Hmm.  Folks, anyone got an address for Nexxon?  Their big money-maker is Maple Story.  I could make the case CoH functioned rather like Maple Story for many of the players (the RPers specifically) with the rich ability to social-network within the game itself.  We might be able to do a back-door on NCSoft via Nexxon.
This is something that would be interesting, especially since the "in game advertisement" thread has gotten me thinking of ways that CoH could have an entire pure-social side opened up that would also make in-game advertising almost a DRAW for new players just interested in a more interactive online environment. With superheroes.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 27, 2012, 03:55:07 AM
This is something that would be interesting, especially since the "in game advertisement" thread has gotten me thinking of ways that CoH could have an entire pure-social side opened up that would also make in-game advertising almost a DRAW for new players just interested in a more interactive online environment. With superheroes.

Heck, half the time for me, CoH was a chat room with fancy visuals.

/me polishes "Roleplayer" badge with pride
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 04:07:48 AM
This is something that would be interesting, especially since the "in game advertisement" thread has gotten me thinking of ways that CoH could have an entire pure-social side opened up that would also make in-game advertising almost a DRAW for new players just interested in a more interactive online environment. With superheroes.

This is exactly what "Maple Story", which is what Nexxon's big win, is.  It's a 2D MMORPG integrated with social networking.  Maybe we ought to be working on Nexxon.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lionors on September 27, 2012, 05:31:03 AM
Actually, I'm thrilled to see someone in the game industry take Kim's stance.  I've long said that I thought the competition for the 18-24 male gamer was overrated.  Maybe they were the biggest buyers at first, but a *lot* has changed since MMOs began developing.  The traditional gaming crowd isn't the traditional gaming crowd anymore.

Besides which, just because a particular target market has gotten older, doesn't mean members of that market have lost their interest in gaming.  It just means their gaming patterns have likely changed.  Just think:  if you began gaming as an 18 year old in Everquest in 1999, you'd be 31 now.  You're working.  You might have a family.  You've got outside responsibilities you didn't have at 18...so instead of playing for hours, as you did at 18, you might have to fit in a few hours here and there.  You might not have the time or patience to jump from game to game as you once did.  Therefore, you're more likely to stick with a game you know and enjoy.  Fortunately, you probably have a bit more disposable income, so you're willing to maintain a subscription, even if your demands on the service aren't great.  What's not to like about gamers who keep steady subscriptions and don't overload the system?  Casual gamers can be a veritable cash cow, appealed to properly.

CoX hit that market perfectly, but I never did think they actually realized just how many sub-markets they could appeal to, nor did they really try.

The gaming target market is shifting, and those who shift focus and aim for it will prosper...just as those who keep blindly targeting one small group will not.  If Kim can be reached, my guess is, that's the angle that will carry the most weight: potential future profit.   Sounds like he'd be a great target to approach, though.  Just my two cents.

~Elizabeth
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 05:34:00 AM
It would be supremely ironic if Nexxon pressured NCSoft to release the IP to them, then re-launched it...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lionors on September 27, 2012, 05:37:28 AM
If they did so, so help me, I'd go out and buy every one of their products, whether I intended to play them or not.

But I would laugh like a fiend [edit: at NCSoft's expense] if they [Nexon] got the IP, then turned around and profited from it.

~Elizabeth (who needs to go to bed, since both her composing and editing skills have hit the skids as the brain cells have faded)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on September 27, 2012, 05:38:01 AM
Would that be good or bad? Maybe I've got this all wrong, but isn't Maple Story one of those MMO's where you play a bunch of metagames that are all cheap knockoffs of popular board games and/or oldschool video games a few thousand times to acquire points which you can then use to buy a new costume piece for your avatar? If so, I'd hate to see what they'd have in mind for CoX.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lionors on September 27, 2012, 05:42:00 AM
Edited to make what I was saying more clear.  Wasn't thinking of them changing CoX, just picking it up and running the game as is.

~Elizabeth
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: golemjoe on September 27, 2012, 05:52:21 AM
Having played a nexon game (Atlantica Online) for a couple of years alongside COH, I would cringe about the idea of nexon running COH.  It would be better than being shutdown but not by leaps and bounds.  Nexon support (at least for AO) is incredibly painful and has driven friends from the game.  Not something I'd like to see mirrored in COH. 

Not trying to be negative.. just wanted to share the experience.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on September 27, 2012, 09:42:39 AM
Well it would be marginally better than a shutdown (and give us more time to code our own game and the means to port our toons into it.)  What I had in mind is that Maple Story's success is due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking.  Some, at least, of CoH's success--and I suspect what brings ALL of us to the table here--was due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking.  CoH obviously did it in a much more palatable way.  If we could squeeze another two years out of CoH, I think Codewalker and the others might have a new ship to jump to.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: QuantumHero on September 27, 2012, 12:29:53 PM
Well it would be marginally better than a shutdown (and give us more time to code our own game and the means to port our toons into it.)  What I had in mind is that Maple Story's success is due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking.  Some, at least, of CoH's success--and I suspect what brings ALL of us to the table here--was due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking.  CoH obviously did it in a much more palatable way.  If we could squeeze another two years out of CoH, I think Codewalker and the others might have a new ship to jump to.

This is becoming *very* interesting.  Almost anything is marginally better then a shutdown.  We have no idea what role (if any) nexxon played in decisions to sign our death warrant but either way yet another opportunity for Nexxon and/or NcSoft to place everyone back in a win-win situation.

I am going to start researching Nexxon products...one never knows what will need to be fully supported...or boycotted, in the near future.  One never, never knows...but NCsoft is sinking so nicely...its almost TITANic.   
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Osborn on September 27, 2012, 12:33:51 PM
Well it would be marginally better than a shutdown (and give us more time to code our own game and the means to port our toons into it.)  What I had in mind is that Maple Story's success is due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking.  Some, at least, of CoH's success--and I suspect what brings ALL of us to the table here--was due to melding gameplay, roleplay, storytelling and social networking.  CoH obviously did it in a much more palatable way.  If we could squeeze another two years out of CoH, I think Codewalker and the others might have a new ship to jump to.

 Talking about "squeezing a year out of CoH" so we have longer to backwards engineer the game and start a competing firm isn't necessarily a good way to ensure potential CoH investors the IP and the aging engine is a good long term investment. If they take the IP for say 20 million US Dollars you're looking at a 10-20 year span needed at current sales to recover that cost. Even if its 2 million for the IP it'll take almost 2 years before the game turns a profit.

So unless NCSoft charities the IP to somebody we're going to need to show we'll support this game for the long run, not just make our own. Even if they use the IP to make CoX-2 they're going to need to see our support for that too rather than "Thanks I got your code, see you suckers later!", as our message.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: QuantumHero on September 27, 2012, 12:43:09 PM
Talking about "squeezing a year out of CoH" so we have longer to backwards engineer the game and start a competing firm isn't necessarily a good way to ensure potential CoH investors the IP and the aging engine is a good long term investment. If they take the IP for say 20 million US Dollars you're looking at a 10-20 year span needed at current sales to recover that cost. Even if its 2 million for the IP it'll take almost 2 years before the game turns a profit.

So unless NCSoft charities the IP to somebody we're going to need to show we'll support this game for the long run, not just make our own. Even if they use the IP to make CoX-2 they're going to need to see our support for that too rather than "Thanks I got your code, see you suckers later!", as our message.

Good point osborn,

By the same token, we need guarentees not to get utterly screwed ever again.   The smart company would save the IP an then partner with the community to deveop a COH2 that we would migrate to enmass.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on September 27, 2012, 02:39:39 PM
Good point osborn,

By the same token, we need guarentees not to get utterly screwed ever again.   The smart company would save the IP an then partner with the community to deveop a COH2 that we would migrate to enmass.

This. Dear sweet $Deity, THIS.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: downix on September 27, 2012, 02:43:23 PM
Talking about "squeezing a year out of CoH" so we have longer to backwards engineer the game and start a competing firm isn't necessarily a good way to ensure potential CoH investors the IP and the aging engine is a good long term investment. If they take the IP for say 20 million US Dollars you're looking at a 10-20 year span needed at current sales to recover that cost. Even if its 2 million for the IP it'll take almost 2 years before the game turns a profit.
Save CoH has revenues of ~$10 million a year. In the $800/month revenue thread we discussed what was needed to run CoH, and it came to under $2 million a year, which means it would take 5 quarters to turn a profit if it is $10 million, or 10 quarters if $20. Alternatively, forgoing immediate profits to instead use Paragon as a self-funding development studio would mean a much higher return at the 2 year mark, as a new title such as CoH2 comes out.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on September 27, 2012, 04:11:57 PM
NCsoft is sinking so nicely...its almost TITANic.

So what IS their stock doing?  How can I check?  Where do I go to check? 
Thanks in advance for the info.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 04:14:57 PM
Save CoH has revenues of ~$10 million a year. In the $800/month revenue thread we discussed what was needed to run CoH, and it came to under $2 million a year, which means it would take 5 quarters to turn a profit if it is $10 million, or 10 quarters if $20. Alternatively, forgoing immediate profits to instead use Paragon as a self-funding development studio would mean a much higher return at the 2 year mark, as a new title such as CoH2 comes out.
Given my own personal interest in this whole project, I do hope to see it become a self-sustaining development environment. I want to develop and test something for which an MMO is the ideal initial environment...

...which is why I am eager to get in contact with those who are involved in the ongoing process. I want to help them get their legs moving, and speak with them about opportunities after things are running smoothly once more. (Also, I'm really really enjoying brainstorming ideas in the in-game-ads thread, I admit. But that's unrelated to my initial interest in this.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Flying Code Monkey on September 27, 2012, 06:03:10 PM
CoX hit that market perfectly, but I never did think they actually realized just how many sub-markets they could appeal to, nor did they really try.

I've never seen so many people be all "oh we are so ollld!" as in City.  I don't mean that in a bad way, though.  I've also never seen another game with so many couples and people who blend playing with their other responsibilities, and/or team with their kids.  I've been pretty convinced for a while that the strength of the City community reflects its success in attracting and retaining that audience.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DamianoV on September 27, 2012, 09:06:14 PM
Quote
So what IS their stock doing?  How can I check?  Where do I go to check?
Thanks in advance for the info.

Do a quick google search for NCSoft stock ticker... on Bloomberg Businessweek, the link is

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=036570:KS

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: emu265 on September 27, 2012, 09:39:30 PM
I've never seen so many people be all "oh we are so ollld!" as in City.  I don't mean that in a bad way, though.  I've also never seen another game with so many couples and people who blend playing with their other responsibilities, and/or team with their kids.  I've been pretty convinced for a while that the strength of the City community reflects its success in attracting and retaining that audience.
Yeah.

I'm not going to start outlining theories as to why this is, but Cities is certainly unique.  It breaks the MMO stereotype not because of it's gameplay, but because of its community.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on September 27, 2012, 09:58:21 PM
It helps that many of us grew up with superheroes and wishing we could be them, and that the superhero is not something that is a one-generational thing. CoH was the first superhero MMO.

I don't know that it did anything, design-wise, that made it have a better community than CO or other competing superhero MMOs, but it has the community and feel it has.

I am, as an outsider who's just wandered in for his own interests, very impressed by what you guys have done here, and I sincerely hope to be able to help find ways to make it even better after we get CoH to continue working.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on September 28, 2012, 08:08:32 PM
Do a quick google search for NCSoft stock ticker... on Bloomberg Businessweek, the link is

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=036570:KS

Thank you.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Chaos Ex Machina on September 28, 2012, 08:21:59 PM
Personally I consider a potential goal of the intellectual property only a non-goal.  The IP has little relation to why the game is fun or why it attracted the audience it did.

If it was a choice of buy the game and rent the IP, versus IP, I say the game is a greater priority by far.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on September 28, 2012, 08:40:27 PM
Personally I consider a potential goal of the intellectual property only a non-goal.  The IP has little relation to why the game is fun or why it attracted the audience it did.

If it was a choice of buy the game and rent the IP, versus IP, I say the game is a greater priority by far.
The goal in "buying the IP" is generally to keep the game running more or less as-is. That is, same general mechanics and such. It will obviously change as it has over the years to date, but this is a "preferred" option because it's basically continuing the game onwards.

If they do a CoH2 (because it IS an 8-year-old game), the IP would be useful, and hopefully experience for whoever works on 2 would stem from having worked on 1.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Solaris on October 03, 2012, 01:52:23 AM
Posted for a friend.
They say hindsight is 20-20. Some comments /fears about Nexon expressed otherwise is June 2012. Indicative of a general feeling, might have helped to push NCSoft's stock to it's current state. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/39016-nexon-today-acquired-3218091-shares-of-ncsoft/
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on October 03, 2012, 05:51:23 AM
Has anyone checked stock prices for other MMO companies? I wonder how PWE and SOE are doing (since they own Champions Online and DCUO respectively)

Compare them to NCsoft and see how they're doing?

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on October 05, 2012, 03:45:55 PM
It's also a point to remember that while Nexon own 15% of NCSoft, the two companies are not merged in any way, so it's logical to include Nexon's share link here too -
Nexon Co Ltd (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=3659.T)

(aside: On Oct 1st 2012, Nexon acquired all shares in gloops, Inc. (http://gloops.com/en/) a Japanese mobile game company - seems their eyes are firmly fixed on the casual/handheld side of the gaming industry for the future - interesting when you remember the 'reason' NCSoft West cited for the closure of CoH was this : "The continued support of the franchise no longer fits with our long-term goals for the company." Considering Nexon acquired 15% of NCSoft shares in June, and NCSoft had diligently supported CoH for 7 years prior to Nexon's involvement, one has to start wondering if this sudden about face was entirely an internal NCSoft decision...)

Oh, and why not also for the sake of completion -

Activision Blizzard Inc (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=ATVI.O)

and...

Electronic Arts inc (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=EA.A)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 05, 2012, 05:30:12 PM
They've been going up ever since the 2nd.  :roll:
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on October 05, 2012, 06:11:08 PM
They've been going up ever since the 2nd.  :roll:
True - but they're still over 9% down on what they were exactly a month ago.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: RedWolfeXR on October 05, 2012, 11:53:53 PM
As others have  said, stock prices are fickle.  If everyone expected 4M sales of GW2 months ago then the "value" of those sales is basically "priced in" to the current valuation.

If the product THEN sells 2M (which is STILL a lot of boxes and a lot of cash) instead the balance sheet may show a dip but the stock price could tumble dramatically.  (which it did)

Missing your EPS always does nasty things to stock.  Its all perception.  Tossing a few IP/titles and employees to the wolves may well be an attempt to moderate that opinion which is mostly in Korea.  Note that CoH seriously tanked in Korea, and it SOUNDS good to the average Korean investor that doesn't know the US market. 

Plus its not just what your stock its doing, its what related ones are doing.

I got laid off from one company because they did deep cuts after missing EPS due to sales being down.  (too deep IMO, and not just because it was deep enough to get me)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on October 25, 2012, 04:37:03 PM
According to http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=036570:KS NCsoft stock hit a 52-week low yesterday (10/24), and as this chart shows http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/charts/charts.asp?ticker=036570:KS there's been a downward trend since 9/7. 

... did we do that?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 25, 2012, 04:39:20 PM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.fragglerockforever.com%2FCoX%2Fncstocks.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Celtic Fist on October 25, 2012, 04:45:12 PM
It would be nice to accredit the fall to NCsoft decision on CoH but lower then expected return on recently releases or other factors are probably a major factor. 

I am not familar with how to get news of CoH decision and community outrage/activity to be linked to the stock data on the various business stock reporting sites but it could offer that the company is not being well managed.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on October 25, 2012, 05:05:09 PM
Agreed, the stock market is such a volatile and finicky mistress that unless there's a very clear and major shift, any connection between stock price and coh-related events is tenuous at best.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 25, 2012, 05:07:56 PM
If the Unity Rally didn't factor into it though... I mean, look at the image I posted. The fates must have quite a sense of humor. The overall trend for that period took a turn on that weekend.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on October 25, 2012, 07:45:20 PM
lower then expected return on recently releases or other factors are probably a major factor. 

Didn't we contribute to that, too, by letting others know how NCsoft does business?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Heat Guard on October 25, 2012, 10:39:08 PM
Didn't we contribute to that, too, by letting others know how NCsoft does business?
I can't speak for anyone else, but thinking that what we have done so far may have helped the nosedive helps deal with this situation a little.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on October 26, 2012, 12:32:00 AM
I can't speak for anyone else, but thinking that what we have done so far may have helped the nosedive helps deal with this situation a little.

Schadenfreude (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQGQ5qBQTA)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 26, 2012, 12:45:24 AM
We may not have contributed but you bet your rosy derriere I am going to use that news.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on October 26, 2012, 01:22:49 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.fragglerockforever.com%2FCoX%2Fncstocks.jpg)

Need to update that graphic to include the huge dip immediately after all the events and press coverage after double XP weekend.  :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Celtic Fist on October 26, 2012, 01:25:33 PM
Checked the NCsoft stock numbers morning and they are a new 52 week low.

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS

Seems like some Justice .. keep up the good fight.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on October 26, 2012, 04:21:19 PM
If I was part of this company, I'd be horrified! Our customers hope we fail, keep up with our stock and cheer when it drops, make fun of our latest products and distribute mocking images online. I can't imagine a more dreadful situation. And it's an entertainment company?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 26, 2012, 04:27:58 PM
If I was part of this company, I'd be horrified! Our customers hope we fail, keep up with our stock and cheer when it drops, make fun of our latest products and distribute mocking images online. I can't imagine a more dreadful situation. And it's an entertainment company?

I don't think that's really a new thing. There is a redside of many of us that is waiting for Hollywood to get swallowed by a 9.9er to level the playing field in the hopes that professional film-making will take a step back to something a bit less formulaic and in-bred. The entertainment industry in general also currently wears the crown when it comes to pushing the government to find ways to bring them more money, as they whine that they're somehow being treated unfairly. And have you seen the kind of reputation EA currently has?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 26, 2012, 04:48:52 PM
Need to update that graphic to include the huge dip immediately after all the events and press coverage after double XP weekend.  :D

That last major drop started a couple days before that weekend.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Luna Eclypse on October 26, 2012, 05:43:57 PM
Their free-falling stocks make me giddy with delight. We cannot afford to let up on the pressure.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on October 26, 2012, 06:00:48 PM
Whether or not we're in any way responsible for contributing to the continued decline of NCsoft stock, we can at least be certain that we're not helping to slow it down.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ironwolf on October 26, 2012, 08:14:27 PM
Here is the thing - we keep holding the carrot out all the time we are beating the snot out of them.

We can make this stop - sell the game - it is that easy.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Xieveral on October 26, 2012, 08:33:39 PM
This was just posted up on the Save CoH facebook group. An estimate of where NCSoft's stocks might be had they not closed the game. The poster does say the graph may be off since the figures don't start from zero.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.lukasmattsson.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F10%2FNcSoft-stocks.png)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on October 26, 2012, 08:35:13 PM
On what do they base their estimates? How do they determine what fall is due to CoH's cancellation?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 26, 2012, 08:36:32 PM
This was just posted up on the Save CoH facebook group. An estimate of where NCSoft's stocks might be had they not closed the game. The poster does say the graph may be off since the figures don't start from zero.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.lukasmattsson.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F10%2FNcSoft-stocks.png)

Who did this? Is it based on any professional trader speculation, or is it 'just for fun?'
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: zybron on October 26, 2012, 08:44:00 PM
Looks like they simply copied the graph from prior to the cancellation and tacked it onto the point where the announcement was made.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Xieveral on October 26, 2012, 08:56:11 PM
I believe they put the graph together for "fun" to show what NCSoft may have lost with the closure . The figures are based on the pattern prior to closing (a copy/paste like Zybron said)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 26, 2012, 09:40:28 PM
Anyone think it might be possible to get an 'official' speculation on this? Or is NC too remote for any Wallstreet news firm to give a darn?

And also, on the topic of whether or not we actually caused this... it's really not that hard to imagine. These trends tend to work like avalanches, and it all it takes is a little gust of wind to start an avalanche.

Similar to how gas prices were during the gulf war. All it took to alter gas prices, was for an Iraqi to fart in the general direction of a soldier from a U.N. nation.

In this case, assuming it was us, here's what I'd say happened. There's all different kinds of investors. Some are fiercely loyal and will give stocks a long-term chance. Others trade by the nano-second... constantly. Some of the latter are as timid as deer, and will flee into the forest the moment they hear a twig snap. No doubt the rally scared those guys off pretty quick. But they're also not the major investors so not much harm done. In the grand scheme of things, the damage probably isn't so bad thus far. But, I think the minor panic might've been enough to incite a slightly larger one. Other investors saw the lowbies panicking, (through the stock value) and on top of that saw the bad press. And there you have your snowballing effect (maybe).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ohms on October 26, 2012, 11:45:28 PM
The graph has no bearing on reality. For example, the mid-September drop was most likely due to the loss of personal data of 5 million Japanese customers which the graph completely ignores.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on October 26, 2012, 11:49:28 PM
The graph has no bearing on reality. For example, the mid-September drop was most likely due to the loss of personal data of 5 million Japanese customers which the graph completely ignores.

Whoa... 5 Million??? I hadn't heard about this! Where's this info come from?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ohms on October 27, 2012, 10:32:26 AM
Whoa... 5 Million??? I hadn't heard about this! Where's this info come from?

MY apologies, I misread the article. It doesn't say how many users had information leaked, only that NCSoft Japan has 5 million registered users. It wasn't widely reported so I have no idea how true it is.

http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/09/ncsoft-internal-error-led-to-latest-account-information-leak/
http://www.gameblogs.co.uk/posts/2012/09/ncsoft-internal-error-led-to-latest-account-information-leak/
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Rotten Luck on October 27, 2012, 02:10:32 PM
Internal Error huh.... Yup no connection to any Internal choice to turn off CoH.

Think someone might have Hacked the system?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on October 27, 2012, 03:05:41 PM
I don't know... I don't see any correlation (real or inferred) between the brief exposure of the customer data in Japan and the downward slide of their stock. Nothing seems to have happened to either bump their stock higher or send it going lower at a faster pace on Sept. 15th.

On the other hand, the graph is almost PERFECTLY in line with the date of the first Unity Rally! In fact I think it's off by only one day because of the fact that the rally happened on a weekend when the stock market wasn't open. As soon as it opened on the following Monday, it went into the SCREAMING DIVE that it's currently in and with only brief upticks, is still in!

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on October 27, 2012, 11:30:13 PM
Well NCSoftcore, if you're reading this... you know how to make the pain stop. Just uncancel our little game, and put it up for sale to responsible caretakers. This can all go away. You don't hafta be the pariah of the gaming world. It won't cost you a lot, and you might even be able to make yourselves look like good guys again.

And we promise we won't be yelling "in your face!" or anything. This has been a nightmare for us as well, and we want it to go away too.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The White Rager on October 28, 2012, 03:17:07 AM
Actually, if and when they do give us what we want, we should probably turn around and counter the bad press we started for a bit. No singing praises through cyberspace, just a little unraveling, some counter comments, a nice article or two on the same lines as what VV is sending out. To show NCSoft what happens when they do cooperate with us. 'We are a force for your own good OR your own destruction, and you choose which', is the lesson we ultimately want them to come away with.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 28, 2012, 03:28:08 AM
Heheh, we are but a syringe. Only they can choose what to load us with. A healing potion, or a deadly poison.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on October 28, 2012, 05:37:12 AM
This is exactly what "Maple Story", which is what Nexxon's big win, is.  It's a 2D MMORPG integrated with social networking.  Maybe we ought to be working on Nexxon.

Particularly because this article (http://allthingsd.com/20120827/exclusive-daniel-kim-stepping-down-as-nexon-america-ceo/), four days before NCSoft's bomb, announces Daniel Kim's replacement by Min Kim (Nexon's SVP of live games) as the CEO of Nexon America, and presents an interesting statement from Min Kim:

Quote
Min Kim said he sees a big opportunity lying ahead in the traditional games space, where people play games for years at a time and for long stretches every month.

This would appear to describe City of Heroes to a 'T', and Nexon -- as a major shareholder of NCSoft -- should be concerned that NCSoft has thrown away a prize opportunity to spearhead City of Heroes as a shining example of creating a game that has built up exactly such a dedicated playerbase.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 28, 2012, 09:36:40 AM
Well can we get the address for Min Kim of Nexon America and start sending him letters?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on October 28, 2012, 11:55:07 AM
There's one of the things that puzzles me - the whole Min Kim, Nexon US thing. If you read his interview that appeared in Forbes on October 5th -

Nexon America CEO Min Kim Explains Why Free-To-Play Is The Future Of Gaming (http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2012/10/05/nexon-ceo-min-kim-explains-why-free-to-play-is-the-future-of-gaming/)

- you can't help but think that keeping City of Heroes alive in its current form would've made the most sense from Nexon's point of view, especially if a sequel was planned using the IP (whether on pc of a different platform), just as with Guild Wars remaining open because GW2 was in development.

Given the image of MMO-centred business plans Min Kim is trying to put over in that article, I find it hard to believe that NCsoft kept Nexon out of the loop about the impending closure of City of Heroes, so once again one has to start wondering what the motivations behind the scenes were.


It's a puzzle - one for which, I'm afraid, we are missing several pieces - pieces that are in corporate hands, beyond our reach.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Rotten Luck on October 28, 2012, 12:27:54 PM
It's a puzzle - one for which, I'm afraid, we are missing several pieces - pieces that are in corporate hands, beyond our reach.

Your not the only one Turjan.  No one seems to know why.  It's part of the frustration we feel, kind of hearing someone died of a mugging.  Their is just no reason we can see.

If I do mean IF Ncsoft going to launch a CoH2 (even without our Devs... part two of our anger) announcing it and explaining that CoH going to go down Nov 30th so they can convert the servers to the new game we be overjoyed.  Our world updated and enhanced with new graphics better engine, and new game play styles are all things players said they wanted.

But this seems to be a franchise killing move like the end of Exteel, as well as others.  End the game and sit on the IP been done to much by NCsoft that we can even tease ourselves they have a CoH2.  The pattern doesn't fit.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: CapaDevans on October 28, 2012, 12:34:44 PM
Unless NC are selling out to someone with a superhero franchise already or far on in the works.

In which case their stocks tanking is probably helping the buyer. Which doesn't concern me much because I still think those numbers are good news for us.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on October 29, 2012, 05:17:50 PM
Yeah, ANY effort to capitalize on the CoH franchise is being destroyed by the current tactics. Now, maybe NCSoft assumes we're a vocal minority and most players will just be so relieved they'll leap onto anything. Maybe they are realizing there's something off but they're too proud (or too afraid of losing face) to step it back and fix it now. Maybe there's something none of us have thought of going on.

It's all a mystery, and all we can do is hope that we're going to make a difference.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Keyne on October 29, 2012, 06:17:15 PM
1) Competing business buys heavily into your stock
2) Pull the plug on one of your products to intentionally sabotage stock value
3) ????
4) Profit?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on October 29, 2012, 06:37:27 PM
That would actually backfire pretty badly. As I uncovered while analyzing their balance sheet to determine why their Current Assets are so high, one of the bigger stockholders of NCSoft is... NCSoft. The company owns a sizable chunk of its own stock -- a little shy of half its recorded assets.

So they're hurt as much as anyone when their stock price falls. Probably more, since a it would devalue their overall assets, which would make them look bad to investors, causing the price to fall further.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on October 29, 2012, 06:53:02 PM
it sounds like they caught themselves in a downward spiral if things start to go badly for them

its like they were playing with a tower of cards, knock out one card and the whole thing can tumble down
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on October 29, 2012, 08:13:12 PM
it sounds like they caught themselves in a downward spiral if things start to go badly for them

its like they were playing with a tower of cards, knock out one card and the whole thing can tumble down

If that's the case, then...

(Mr. Burns)  EXcellent! (/Mr. Burns)

The more they hurt, the more they'll think about actually selling off assets. And the ONE asset that's likely causing them the MOST problems right now is City of Heroes.

HAMMER DOWN people! Ramp up the NOISE!!!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 29, 2012, 08:23:04 PM
If that's the case, then...

(Mr. Burns)  EXcellent! (/Mr. Burns)

The more they hurt, the more they'll think about actually selling off assets. And the ONE asset that's likely causing them the MOST problems right now is City of Heroes.

HAMMER DOWN people! Ramp up the NOISE!!!

Like I've said before...keep shouting until the walls of Jericho(metaphor: NCSoft) fall around them, leaving them dazed and confused.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on October 29, 2012, 10:10:03 PM
That's true, but I wouldn't get too excited about it. Just look at the 6 month and 1/2 year graphs. NCSoft's stock price is fairly cyclical, climbing sharply when they release new games and then dropping back down shortly after.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on October 29, 2012, 10:27:58 PM
That's true, but I wouldn't get too excited about it. Just look at the 6 month and 1/2 year graphs. NCSoft's stock price is fairly cyclical, climbing sharply when they release new games and then dropping back down shortly after.

How many times can they launch a flop and actually keep investors fooled?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on October 29, 2012, 10:30:36 PM
How many times can they launch a flop and actually keep investors fooled?
As many times as they can fool investors with their own press releases, unfortunately.  Our goal, then, is to wake them up with information of our own, pointing out the history of failure.  If we keep twisting the knife hard enough, NCsoft's eventually gotta scream.

We've already heard the whimpering (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5966.0.html).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on October 29, 2012, 11:53:30 PM
I think I've said this before, but I can't find that post right now.

I think honestly - this time, with this closure, NCSoft is NOT going to get away with this - at least not unscathed.

We have an interesting confluence of things happening at close to the same time.

There is a bad economy, and thus gamers have to be more selective of their purchases.

Related to that is an issue that has been growing over several years - the lack of satisfactory customer service and/or value that people are getting fed up with. When your money is limited, you want VALUE for it and not to be treated like shit.

(To be fair - NCsoft has - in the past, been one of the BETTER companies in terms of customer support. I say this as someone who has sent in multiple in-game tickets and either got a prompt visit from a GM or an email that asked me to explain the issue in further detail. And the NCSoft GMs and crew ALWAYS came through. Mind - that's a reflection of the hard-working people at the NCSoft West offices and the server farm more than it is the home company. But just to be thorough and give credit where it's due and all.)

The rise of social media in the form of LiveJournal, Facebook and Twitter. (More the latter two. But LJ was the pioneer)

The Mass Effect 3 Ending Fiasco, where all of the above came together at once to FORCE EA and Bioware to compromise and give a (somewhat) better ending for the game.

Now let me backtrack a bit.

In the past, NCSoft closed 4 games. Dungeon Runners, Auto Assault, EXteel and Tabula Rasa. In every case, the fig leaf of the game being unprofitable or losing money could be used. Even in the fiasco between NCSoft and Richard Garriot, the fight was low key enough not to reach outside the hardcore gaming community.

(And on that subject of community - none of those games lasted long enough to DEVELOP a community of any real kind. But I'll come back to that point below.)

Let's take a side trip also - to the closing of Star Wars Galaxies last year. A lot of people complain about Sony (SOE) for that. But that really was not their fault. LucasArts decided not to renew the license (or they pulled it outright, I'm not sure if I remember which it was) and thus SOE legally could not continue the game.

(A side note - SOE actually has perhaps the BEST record of keeping older games going of all the MMO companies. Everquest was theirs, and it's still going. If DC doesn't pull the same license pull as Lucasarts, DCUO might actually last longer than Champions Online!)

SWG was obviously closed in favor of SWTOR. Well that game isn't doing so well either. It might be due to it just not being that great a game (as many people seem to think) or it might be because many fans shied away from EA and Bioware because of the ME3 debacle. Or it could be a combination of those things and the economy etc. But I tend to think the ME3 Ending had SOMETHING to do with it at least for a few months. I wonder now how much, if any, regret is going through the minds of the CEOs at Bioware, EA and Lucasarts now?

And the SWG fans certainly haven't forgotten. The gaming industry hasn't forgotten that closure. That one's still fresh in the minds of many fans and gamers. (And many of them I've noticed expressing sympathy with us on a few forums.)

So now we come to the closing of City of Heroes.

- Which was still doing financially well.

- Which was around for 8 solid years, and never ever went into the red.

- Which because of that time and because of the nature and the undeniable (award winning!) quality of the game - solid gameplay AND solid tools for RP - developed possibly THE most dedicated, coherent, mature, and MOTIVATED Community the gaming world has ever seen!

- A community which at the perfect time that it NEEDS it - has the TOOLS of the newly developed social media.

- And the EXAMPLE of the Mass Effect 3 Fans as a guide -

- AND the backing of one of the Fantasy Genre's finest writers -

- AND the goodwill and respect of not only many FORMER gamers, but even games that are in direct competition with it - namely Champions and DCUO.

This is a closing that shocked not just US, but dumbfounded the entire gaming industry and has left many wondering if their game is next.

Oh no. THIS TIME it's VERY VERY different. THIS time NCSoft made a MONUMENTAL misjudgment in which game to close in their stable to appease their stockholders. Because of their blindness to the Western Market and it's needs and because of their provincialism at the home office, they have NO IDEA what they have awoken.

The cyclical nature of their stock may have something to do with the downturn. The economy may also play into it.

But c'mon - LOOK at that graph and the timeline!

The graph goes UP sharply around the time that GW2 is released. There is a slight drop off of speed in the upward swing as the closure of City of Heroes is announced.

And then the Unity Rally happens on the weekend of the 7th.

And BAM - as soon as the stock market opens on the following Monday the NCsoft ticker takes a SCREAMING FALL. That despite some ups and downs since, has continued until now?

You want to tell me THAT is a coincidence? I wasn't sure myself until just this past week. But I'm convinced now that we STOPPED that upward swing COLD.

Oh no. No no no... We ARE having an effect. We HAVE ALREADY had an effect. Why do you think they even bothered trying to ask us to stop saying nasty true things?

Because what we are doing is WORKING. Because it's HURTING them.

Pop a rez. Plant your feet, and BRING THE NOISE.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on October 30, 2012, 12:00:29 AM
Drums in the Deep.

We are coming.

^_^
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mentalshock on October 30, 2012, 12:01:15 AM
Drums in the Deep.

We are coming.

^_^

And we have a Cave Troll!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 30, 2012, 12:17:26 AM
Hold your ground, hold your ground!
Sons of Paragon, of the Isles, my brothers!
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of heroes fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day.
An hour of woes and shattered shields, when the age of heroes comes crashing down!
But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you stand, Heroes of the City!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on October 30, 2012, 12:23:59 AM
Hold your ground, hold your ground!
Sons of Paragon, of the Isles, my brothers!
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of heroes fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day.
An hour of woes and shattered shields, when the age of heroes comes crashing down!
But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you *stand, Heroes of the City!

**APPLAUSE!!!**

Damnit! A LIKE button! Where's the like button!?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 30, 2012, 12:53:52 AM
They're destroying my world.  I aim to misbehave.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on October 30, 2012, 01:17:01 AM
They're destroying my world.  I aim to misbehave.

...where in the bloody hells is that like button?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Twisted Toon on October 30, 2012, 03:34:30 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=malzeth.com%2Fimages%2Flike.JPG)

There ya go.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: LT. Couper on October 30, 2012, 04:26:28 AM
They're destroying my world.  I aim to misbehave.

Indeed.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: OzonePrime on October 30, 2012, 11:45:16 AM
They're destroying my world.  I aim to misbehave.
Most definitely!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on October 30, 2012, 09:25:36 PM
Wait till you see Nigel Smythe's post on www.cccpgroup.us
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on October 31, 2012, 05:48:45 AM
Just did a search for "NCSoft shares" on Google to see if any of our pages come up, and this thread was the first to pop up. Bottom  of the third page.  :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Beodren on October 31, 2012, 12:19:59 PM
Point is they bounced up heavily anyway...
I would advise offensive action. If I am correct a lot of gaming branch uses Twitter, right? Would we be able to trend a catchy anti NCSoft #tag (MMO killer is too close to us gamers, while sucks is just crude and impolite. Best would be opinion of person knowing a bit more about PR), their stocks would have to take a hit, not to mention a heavy bad PR. Problem may lie in fact, we lost a lot of people during silent period, so we might have to search for others, believing NCSoft needs to change ttheir approach.

Just throwing out an idea, because well... high spirits are all fun and games, but against everything, whoever bought NCSoft action at the very bottom had a pleasant suprise. Something, we definitly didn't wanted.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 01, 2012, 02:39:53 AM
Just did a search for "NCSoft shares" on Google to see if any of our pages come up, and this thread was the first to pop up. Bottom  of the third page.  :)
The way to get our stuff come up on the first page is to link to it every chance you get.  Your blog, facebook, anyplace you can post to, comments sections on Massively and other gaming sites.  Link to the posts on www.cccpgroup.us; the front page is ALL NCSoft criticism now and will remain so, but the only way for it to become visible is for links to be made to it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Rotten Luck on November 01, 2012, 02:46:23 AM
I'm trying... not easy when your not used to communicating.  Curse you NCsoft your making me Socialize!

On a side note ... new keyboard smaller keys... hmm not sure how I feel about it but it's fancy.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 01, 2012, 02:47:10 AM
You know, something that occurs to me. The major cause of our ire is the disconnect between the work culture of North America and the work culture of Korea.

Many of us have vowed to avoid doing business with NCSoft ever again.

Our cause, being a public face of that cultural dissonance, is something that may very well spread outside of the gaming industry. I certainly have been working my contacts to make them aware of the consequences of this dissonance being left unresolved as far as it relates to their industry.

If a company betrays the trust of its loyal customers, what grounds do they have to avoid being mistrusted by the companies they would wish to work with in the future?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 01, 2012, 02:51:18 AM
This may (or may not have) been mentioned before. Since after 11/30 the general agreement is that NC Soft won't see another penny from us. Is there anyway to contact game stores that sell boxed games or product keys online and make it known that they risk losing customers by offering the games? I don't see big corporate chain stores like Game Stop giving in, but a few locally owned ones might, right?

:( My measly suggestion. I wish we had the numbers WoW does, then we could just take over the world.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Rotten Luck on November 01, 2012, 02:59:07 AM
I wouldn't punish a suppler just because they have a game on the shelf.  Working at a corner store some items come in bulk from the main company and others from orders from the store itself.  Then you have contracts agreements signed before any issues came up.

Our problem is not that CoX closing it's how it was closed the cold termination of a thriving studio (Paragon Studios).  The Silent treatment and the resulting feeling of we are seen as nothing important to NCsoft.  This is increased more so by the timing of the announcement.  Right after GW2, During the Labor day weekend in the US (big chunk of the western market) and then the news of Bit... I mean Blades and souls.  This gives the impression they were trying to hide the closing of City of Heroes in the news and Holiday bursts.  This is also enhanced by the time of year.  November and December Big Christmas buying times... time when game sales go up.

So by cutting us off at this time they in cress the chance someone will by GW2 or B&S for a replacement.  What they didn't expect is the Loud SaveCoH movement as stated by Positron.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 01, 2012, 03:02:06 AM
Indeed.

To be truthful, I hold no qualms about buying NCSoft.

I have phrased it that way for a particular reason.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mentalshock on November 01, 2012, 03:07:24 AM
Indeed.

To be truthful, I hold no qualms about buying NCSoft.

I have phrased it that way for a particular reason.

I believe you termed it 'Corporate Vikingry'?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 01, 2012, 03:17:43 AM
I believe you termed it 'Corporate Vikingry'?

Not so crassly. Most people would look at the term and think of something illegal.

I have nothing more than the intention to position myself in such a way such that they have no choice but to listen to what I have to tell them. By this I mean eventually accumulating more shares than Nexon. This is, after all, an extremely long-term plan.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 01, 2012, 03:26:43 AM
Might be a much shorter term plan if we could manage to dip the price of shares to 100 Yuan with our actions.

Mind, that would be a...400% decrease in the stock price?  Methinks we would need a front page story on CNN to do that.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 01, 2012, 03:29:46 AM
Might be a much shorter term plan if we could manage to dip the price of shares to 100 Yuan with our actions.

Mind, that would be a...400% decrease in the stock price?  Methinks we would need a front page story on CNN to do that.

Are you perhaps implying what I suspect you may be implying, dear wordsmith?

^_^
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 01, 2012, 03:38:38 AM
Are you perhaps implying what I suspect you may be implying, dear wordsmith?

^_^

Alas, no, except in that we need a MUCH higher level of visibility than we have.  I don't think it's out of the question to actually get it, but the odds are not in our favor, and NCSoft would have to be caught doing something seriously illegal.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 01, 2012, 03:40:23 AM
I think it would be even bigger than CNN than you think. It would possibly be (in the game world sense) something on the scale of  the Libor rate fiddling that Barclays did. Yep, for you to drop it *that* much (especially when it is trading at above 200,000 yen right now), to get it down to 100 KRW, they would have to be dealing in something *seriously* illegal.

Actually, yen is the Japanese currency, the Korean currency is the Won. NCSoft is currently trading at the equivalent of ~15000 yen.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mentalshock on November 01, 2012, 03:44:41 AM
Actually, yen is the Japanese currency, the Korean currency is the Won. NCSoft is currently trading at the equivalent of ~15000 yen.

To be more useful, that's about $187.45 CDN, or $187 US.   Give or take a few cents for exchange rates.

   Oh, and by 'illegal', do we mean something along the lines of forging a letter, or otherwise presenting falsehood as fact?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 01, 2012, 04:02:33 AM
To be more useful, that's about $187.45 CDN, or $187 US.   Give or take a few cents for exchange rates.

   Oh, and by 'illegal', do we mean something along the lines of forging a letter, or otherwise presenting falsehood as fact?

Depends.  If you are talking about Tabula Rasa, that is "old news".  If you are talking about something brand new, especially once we can cite Tabula Rasa and point out it out as showing a history of deception...well now you are talking.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 01, 2012, 04:13:49 AM
Depends.  If you are talking about Tabula Rasa, that is "old news".  If you are talking about something brand new, especially once we can cite Tabula Rasa and point out it out as showing a history of deception...well now you are talking.
Hmm.  We should probably try to get in touch with ex-Paragon Studios folks then.  If anyone would have that kind of ammo against NC, it'd likely be them.  After all, unless someone knows something I don't, we've already discussed their behavior towards their customers, and apparently their habit of revaluing the worth of their IPs to justify their stock prices isn't enough.

Now, if NC acted in bad faith towards their employees when Paragon Studios was closed & gutted, well... that would be a big bullet for our guns, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 01, 2012, 05:43:15 AM
Hmm.  We should probably try to get in touch with ex-Paragon Studios folks then.  If anyone would have that kind of ammo against NC, it'd likely be them.  After all, unless someone knows something I don't, we've already discussed their behavior towards their customers, and apparently their habit of revaluing the worth of their IPs to justify their stock prices isn't enough.

Now, if NC acted in bad faith towards their employees when Paragon Studios was closed & gutted, well... that would be a big bullet for our guns, wouldn't it?

Well now, you have to remember that what is LEGAL and what is INTERESTING are two different things.  For instance, apparently it is not fraudulent for NCSoft to value all their IPs together at about $3m for tax purposes, yet tell their stockholders that CoH itself is worth $80m.  It's not fraudulent...but it's not ethical, and I bet their stockholders don't know that little tidbit of information.  And that is the sort of thing they would find very difficult to explain to a CNN business reporter.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 01, 2012, 05:59:35 AM
Well then, the question is, how do we get this unethical-though-not-actually-fraudulent behavior into CNN or some other respectable news source's ears, and make them care enough to start digging into it?  If we can get them to put the thumbscrews to NCsoft, I could see some investors shying away from the company as a result.

Coupled with the glassdoor.com employee reports, straight-from-the-horse's-mouth bad press from ex-Paragon employees, customer testimonials from us, whatever complaints we can file with the BBB, and their history of shady activity re: the Tabula Rasa/Richard Garriott fiasco, it paints a very unflattering picture of NCsoft.  It would portray them as a company that is duplicitous, impulsive, pigheaded-if-not-outright-bigoted, unethical, and extremely poor at customer relations.  Definitely not a company I'd want to associate myself with as a stockholder, that's for sure.

And the best part about it, we're not exagerrating anything.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 01, 2012, 06:38:21 AM
Alas, no, except in that we need a MUCH higher level of visibility than we have.  I don't think it's out of the question to actually get it, but the odds are not in our favor, and NCSoft would have to be caught doing something seriously illegal.
I'm not so sure.  Sometimes being caught doing something unethical that is legal but stinks, is worse than being caught and punished for something illegal.  With an illegal act, we kind of believe the courts and system will deal with it.  With something unethical and stinky that a company can expect to get away with, we all know it is up to us to bring about a change, and to make the transition from what is legal, to what is just.

In addition to that, suspicion and rumour are often worse left unaddressed than an actual guilty verdict.  A widespread suspicion is far more damaging than a legal judgement which people can believe has settled the matter.

At this time, the main suspicions we have are several:

1.  That NCsoft are not serving customer interests at all as they should (the most successful game ever closed) where the game was not making a loss and the motive is believed to be for more profit - forcing players to have to buy another game of some kind that they can make more money on, even though it is not a comparable product.  (Minor, but still somewhat disgusting and questionable and worthy of debate).

2. That NCsoft are failing to do their jobs properly in serving shareholder interests, causing masses of expensive negative opinion that was unnecessary and thoughtless, and flat out incompetent.  More importantly, once it becomes apparent that closing CoH is more expensive than they'd believed, not changing their business plans to adapt out of pride, or stubbornness would be a failure of legal responsibility to look after shareholder interests.

3.  That NCsoft are a company committed (and convicted of) continued use of deception and outright lies to promote their business interests.  Not just spin, but the claims that Garriott had resigned, for instance, or that they had "exhausted all possibilities" to find alternative solutions to closing Paragon and CoH with the minimum possible notice, are both outright lies.  False claims made for profit.  False advertising, false marketing, and deceptive business practices are something we know are not technically legal, but that we all know happen often.  Have NCsoft actually crossed a line with just how far they have gone?  Well, in the Garriott case, yes, without doubt.  In the CoH case ... we can't know without knowing just how much money their lies are enabling.  I think we have enough suspicion here to demand an investigation, at least.

These are just 3 obvious causes of suspicion and distrust, but all three are valid, and each feeds the other.  I'm certain if we were to dig we would find out more.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 01, 2012, 06:47:59 AM
One of the problems I've noticed is that most coverage of NCsoft has been very... piecemeal.  An issue here, a problem there, but nothing that wholesale addresses the history, and indeed the pattern of duplicitous behavior that NCsoft has displayed.  All companies have their small problems here and there, it's a necessary evil of doing business this day and age.  But NCsoft has a disturbing trend here that I don't think media watchdogs or investors are aware of.

If we can get some prime page space on a major news outlet, I think we should try to bust NC's chops across the board.  Lay out the whole spread of failure starting from Tabula Rasa to today.  State, repeat, and emphasize that NC has not only engaged in unethical business practices, but done so repeatedly, towards its customers, employees, associates, and investors alike.  With particular regard to shareholders, we need to make the point that any investment in NCsoft is a risky venture at best.  At worst, it's a case of throwing your money down the crapper.

If we could get them in legal hot water, that would be great, but it's not strictly necessary.  If we can get their investors worried, or scare them enough that they pull out for fear of losing their investments, that would be sufficient to get NCsoft to take us seriously.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mentalshock on November 01, 2012, 07:02:59 AM
Funny, I thought more or less plotting the downfall of an entire corporation would bother my sense of ethics. 

   But then I remembered that my own code of ethics leans more to the Deontological side of things.   That sort of ethics is best described as 'duty' based.    Therefore, defending what is important to me is certainly a worthy duty.

   So, no issue here.

    It just kinda strikes me as funny, to a degree.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 01, 2012, 07:15:18 AM
Funny, I thought more or less plotting the downfall of an entire corporation would bother my sense of ethics.
Well, it's kinda like plotting the downfall of an evil empire.  Your sense of ethics wouldn't be bothered if someone kicked Lord Recluse out of the Rogue Isles and turned the place into a haven of civil liberty under the rule of just laws, would you?  Same idea, different target.

We want NCsoft to relinquish CoH to a sufficient degree that someone else can manage it more responsibly.  Until then, we must continually give their PR department fits and reveal the terrifying truth to their shareholders.  This must continue until NC's willing to relent and play ball, or they collapse under the weight of their own unethical behavior.

Either way, I'd be content.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mentalshock on November 01, 2012, 07:22:15 AM
Well, it's kinda like plotting the downfall of an evil empire.  Your sense of ethics wouldn't be bothered if someone kicked Lord Recluse out of the Rogue Isles and turned the place into a haven of civil liberty under the rule of just laws, would you?  Same idea, different target.

We want NCsoft to relinquish CoH to a sufficient degree that someone else can manage it more responsibly.  Until then, we must continually give their PR department fits and reveal the terrifying truth to their shareholders.  This must continue until NC's willing to relent and play ball, or they collapse under the weight of their own unethical behavior.

Either way, I'd be content.

I think my problem stems from trying to be Lawful Good in a Chaotic Neutral world.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 01, 2012, 08:08:13 AM
I think my problem stems from trying to be Lawful Good in a Chaotic Neutral world.
Look at this guy, calling that a problem.  That's a good joke there, Mentalshock.

Being a better person than the world around you, and trying to make that world a better place as a result, is kinda what being a hero is all about.

"... for evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing."
-Reverend Charles Frederic Aked (http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/12/04/good-men-do/)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mentalshock on November 01, 2012, 08:21:22 AM
Heh, it's only a problem if you worry too much about it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 01, 2012, 01:15:33 PM
I want to caution people here: I've seen at least one post that nobody's questioned state that NCSoft values their entire MMO IP collection at around $3M US (which we do have confirmation of, so that's not the problem), but tells its stockholders that individual MMO IPs are worth $80M US (which, to my knowledge, is merely the result of mass speculation on our part, not something we have hard numbers to back up).

We do have their quarterly report to stockholders...but I don't recall seeing IPs valued in the tens of millions on it. I could be misremembering, but before we make any serious efforts to "point this little tidbit out," we had best make DARN sure we can hand our sources for this "tidbit" to CNN/NBC/CBS/FOX/ABC/NPR/PBS/NYT/WSJ/whoever. We needn't have incontrovertible proof, but we need something more than "what if..." to give them. If there's a scent of possible malarkey, then the news agencies will be able to dig and fact check and maybe find real dirt even if we're WRONG. If we just tell them "we think..." though, they'll shrug because, really, they have better things to do than pursue a witch hunt against a foreign company that makes silly video games. Like pursuing witch hunts against domestic politicians!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 01, 2012, 01:59:14 PM
I think my problem stems from trying to be Lawful Good in a Chaotic Neutral world.

Psh. Chaotic Goods like me have all the fun, you know. Robin Hood, Oracle, Merlin...I'm in good company.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 01, 2012, 02:01:52 PM
Psh. Chaotic Goods like me have all the fun, you know. Robin Hood, Oracle, Merlin...I'm in good company.
Me, I strive for Neutral Good. I'm not sure how well I succeed. I know my image tends to be more "Comically Evil," but hey.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on November 01, 2012, 02:26:47 PM
There are benefits to being Lawful Evil like I am. <.< >.>
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on November 01, 2012, 02:29:31 PM
Well now, you have to remember that what is LEGAL and what is INTERESTING are two different things.  For instance, apparently it is not fraudulent for NCSoft to value all their IPs together at about $3m for tax purposes, yet tell their stockholders that CoH itself is worth $80m.  It's not fraudulent...but it's not ethical, and I bet their stockholders don't know that little tidbit of information.  And that is the sort of thing they would find very difficult to explain to a CNN business reporter.

Intangibles are a tricky thing, and I almost regret posting that, because it can be easily taken out of context or misunderstood.

Standard accounting practice is to value things like Intellectual Property very literally -- the balance in the account is not how much it's actually worth, but how much the company has spent to acquire it. So if you create something from scratch, it's IP value on your books is zero, because you didn't  actually buy it form anyone. Things like salaries don't go in there either; those are operating expenses. The only time you'd increase the amount reported there is when you buy an IP outright from someone, or purchase a company for their IPs.

Intangibles are not usually revalued until you sell them. So if you buy "City of Gyros" from GreekWorks, Inc. for $5000, then turn it into a national franchise with hundreds of stores doing billions of dollars of business a year, the trademarks and everything are still reported as being worth $5000 on your books. Only when you turn around and sell it to McMonster Corp for $20 million does that value change.

US GAAP actually forbids revaluing intangibles because of the potential for abuse. I don't know enough about K-GAAP to know what it says. I do know that NCSoft switched from that to the international accounting standard IFRS last year, which does allow revaluing intangibles under some circumstances. In practice most companies still don't, because it's a lot of hassle and is very difficult to accurately value something like that until you have a buyer on the line who's willing to part with cash for it.

The only reason I mentioned it at all is because in theory at least, what NCSoft paid for the City of Heroes IP from Cryptic should be included in that account. I wanted it to be available as a point of reference, and it shouldn't be taken as a measure of what that property is worth today.

TL;DR: It's not fraudulent for the IP to be undervalued on their books, and might be legally required depending on what standard they're operating under. There's a lot of instances of NCSoft being deceptive but that isn't one of them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on November 01, 2012, 02:35:19 PM
I almost forgot, even after all of that, I definitely think $80 million is an absurd asking price for it, regardless of any other factor.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 01, 2012, 02:40:19 PM
- the balance in the acocunt is not how much it's actually worth

My brain made this "the balance in the coconut." :)

So, we can acknowledge a semantic difference between "value" and "worth," since NC Soft could be claiming a worth to investors based on attached assets and revenue? I'm not saying it's legal/illegal or ethical/unethical. That's never stopped a corporation from doing something. However, we don't need anything probative, just damning, in order to affect their image and stock prices.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 01, 2012, 02:44:49 PM
My brain made this "the balance in the coconut." :)

So, we can acknowledge a semantic difference between "value" and "worth," since NC Soft could be claiming a worth to investors based on attached assets and revenue? I'm not saying it's legal/illegal or ethical/unethical. That's never stopped a corporation from doing something. However, we don't need anything probative, just damning, in order to affect their image and stock prices.
False, actually. Corporations are very much stopped by what's illegal. It costs a lot of money to cover things up and deal with problems that might come to light, so they generally try to follow the letter of the law (and spend a great deal of money doing it), because it's cheaper in the long run. While there ARE people who will break the law - and corporations are just groups of people acting under a unified name - generally speaking, it is incorrect to state that legality doesn't ever factor in to a corporation's decision-making process.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Rotten Luck on November 01, 2012, 02:46:42 PM
Is there a None of thee above... or All of thee above option?

It seems based on a Dungeons and Dragons Alignment test I'm in truth Lawful Neutral.  Lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount to her. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government. The common phrase for lawful neutral is "true lawful." Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.

Guess that's true I do follow my own Personal code more then Law and Tradition.  So given that anyone up for some Gunpowder fireworks?  I say a good place is under the NCsoft building!  MAH HA HA HA.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 01, 2012, 03:01:09 PM
OK, ya got me. I was just browsing through in distracting myself from homework and didn't really think through what I was trying to say. :)

What we see these days, at least in the US, is a trend toward corporations finding it more economical to pay the lawyers than the technicians and engineers, in a sense.  I know that comes from the public and media finding the stories of corporate shenanigans "sexier" than the ones about corporations behaving, so it's not a truly accurate perception, but it's not patently false.  However, since the public perception is there, perhaps it's something we can use.

And, nice Dwight Schrute impression, BTW. ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on November 01, 2012, 03:34:12 PM
Lawful neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot.

I'm not so sure I'd consider it the best alignment. To me, Lawful Neutral means "blindly does what the law says without considering the ramifications of those actions and whether it's morally and ethically right."

Remember the law is made by humans and is subject to the same faults as the people who wrote it. Just because someone is in a position of authority doesn't mean that they deserve it. Lawful neutral characters in D&D are excellent cannon fodder for lawful evil to use for their purposes.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 01, 2012, 03:40:59 PM
I'm not so sure I'd consider it the best alignment. To me, Lawful Neutral means "blindly does what the law says without considering the ramifications of those actions and whether it's morally and ethically right."

Well, technically, that's Lawful Stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid). An alignment isn't a 100% thing. Some lawful people break the letter of the law in order to maintain the spirit of that law, for example.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: epawtows on November 01, 2012, 03:44:01 PM
I'm not so sure I'd consider it the best alignment. To me, Lawful Neutral means "blindly does what the law says without considering the ramifications of those actions and whether it's morally and ethically right."

Remember the law is made by humans and is subject to the same faults as the people who wrote it. Just because someone is in a position of authority doesn't mean that they deserve it. Lawful neutral characters in D&D are excellent cannon fodder for lawful evil to use for their purposes.

What this is really pointing out is that RPG alignment systems are of limited applicability to the real world.  Can be fine in a game, because the rulebook can say *exactly* what they are supposed to mean. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: V-Mink on November 01, 2012, 03:58:06 PM
What this is really pointing out is that RPG alignment systems are of limited applicability to the real world.  Can be fine in a game, because the rulebook can say *exactly* what they are supposed to mean.

RPGs with alignment systems also have the conceit -- explicit or implicit -- that there are some actions that are objectively evil always, which the players know but the characters may themselves not know.

(That, or you get things like whole chapters in Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness that read like jurisprudence texts.  "Stealing bread is wrong... unless one is stealing to feed one's family.  Unless one's family is evil.  Unless for whatever reason they are being unjustly persecued even if evil.  Unless they have been legitimately cursed.  Unless that curse is levied by an evil church.  Unless because ALIGNMENT, deal with it!"  Argh.  :gonk: )
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 01, 2012, 04:19:51 PM
I almost forgot, even after all of that, I definitely think $80 million is an absurd asking price for it, regardless of any other factor.
This is really the crux of the matter, ain't it?

Somehow, whether or not the revaluing itself is legal or even common practice, NC has basically stated that CoH's value, alone, is now worth forty times what they'd previously stated the value of all their IPs combined.  One game just doesn't do that, especially not a game that is, admittedly, rather niche in its market scope and is about to be canned and gutted by its company, despite the fact that it's still operating in the black.

I'd be happy to wait until someone can get more solid numbers (I really wouldn't know where to begin research, or I'd do so myself), but still - where did this extra 78-million-plus in value come from?  If  I were an investor in NCsoft, I'd be asking that question, repeatedly, alongside threatening to pull my investment out if I didnt get a satisfactory answer.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 01, 2012, 04:24:25 PM
Again, I think we need to pull back from the "$80 million" figure; unless we have definitive statements that NCSoft has valued it at that level, we are in danger of delegitimizing our position by quoting it as if it were factually something they'd claimed.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 01, 2012, 04:51:56 PM
RPGs with alignment systems also have the conceit -- explicit or implicit -- that there are some actions that are objectively evil always, which the players know but the characters may themselves not know.

(That, or you get things like whole chapters in Book of Exalted Deeds and Book of Vile Darkness that read like jurisprudence texts.  "Stealing bread is wrong... unless one is stealing to feed one's family.  Unless one's family is evil.  Unless for whatever reason they are being unjustly persecued even if evil.  Unless they have been legitimately cursed.  Unless that curse is levied by an evil church.  Unless because ALIGNMENT, deal with it!"  Argh.  :gonk: )
Regarding the whole alignment debate... here.  Have it straight from the Celestial's mouth.

(https://i.imgur.com/pf8jt.png) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)

Alignment ain't absolute, people.  What's in your heart, and what you actually strive for is at least as important as what you've actually done, or are doing.  Now, why the celestial is getting bent up over Roy's quips to his Dad, that I don't get... I mean, last I checked, taunting adversaries was considered a primary function of a tank.

Now, back on topic...

Again, I think we need to pull back from the "$80 million" figure; unless we have definitive statements that NCSoft has valued it at that level, we are in danger of delegitimizing our position by quoting it as if it were factually something they'd claimed.
Rather than pull back entirely, I think we should do some research.  Y'know, get the real numbers.  After all, the idea that they might be... 'massaging' the numbers they present to their stockholders is too good to just let go of.  We just have to get more solid info behind it.  Anyone have any idea where to begin looking for NCsoft's quotes of its value, both for tax purposes and shareholder purposes?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Flashtoo on November 01, 2012, 05:09:31 PM
Within the same context, look at the comparison between Roy and Miko - there is huge variance in the ways you can play the same alignment.

You can commit an evil act without being evil. You can follow laws without being lawful - or break them without being chaotic. It's about the way the character thinks and feels: actions and habits are only a remote product of alignment, not the defining features of it. There are so many other factors (ability scores and racial heritage, for instance) that figure in; even a cowardly city official could be Lawful Good with good enough writing behind him.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 01, 2012, 05:42:14 PM
False, actually. Corporations are very much stopped by what's illegal.
That's not true either.  Legality, like ethics, is largely a non-issue to the modern corporation.  They are concerned with cost versus benefit, and there are a huge number of companies that actively flout the law, where the penalty, of a few thousand, is a minor cost against the reward of hundreds of thousands.  Further, there are companies who base their business on the unlikelihood of being convicted for practices that they do which deliberately and knowingly flaunt the law, but do so in a risk-managed way.

I get illegal phone calls all the time, calls that ignore the laws on unsolicited sales calls, and even ignore the 'do not call' registrations, made from companies in territories that do not have those laws, but fully on behalf of companies here in my home country.  This is an example of outright illegal activity that is circumvented with ease, knowing that the chances of actually being prosecuted are small.

A lot of business operates in 'grey areas' of the law, despite the fact that there is no such thing.  The law is either black or white.  Grey areas are where there is a gap between the black of what is forbidden and the white of what is allowed that companies are able to slip their activity into.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 01, 2012, 05:55:04 PM
While lobbyists would kill it dead, I wish Congress here in the States at least would institute a law confiscating ALL proceeds from illegal activity.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 01, 2012, 05:56:15 PM
Just trying to put an end to this debate.

In my experience, the personality, strengths and flaws of the person in charge permeates an entire organization, so that it becomes a magnification and reflection of his or her self. Therefore you will find scrupulously law abiding and ethical corporations in direct competition with corporations that bend the law and ethics to the breaking point. The unethical company will often seem to have the advantage, right until the moment the bad karma bites 'em.

For my part I cared nothing about NCSoft until they cancelled CoH in a ruthless, unexpected manner, having just posted expensive and attractive upgrades. From this, we've all unearthed other examples of misbehavior by NCSoft. All this reflects on the personality of Mr. Kim, and I deduce he is a person whose word cannot be trusted, he treats women shabbily, and he has no empathy for employees or customers.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: therain93 on November 01, 2012, 06:39:43 PM
While lobbyists would kill it dead, I wish Congress here in the States at least would institute a law confiscating ALL proceeds from illegal activity.

That would be the RICO Act - Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.  Property acquired through illegal means can be seized.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 01, 2012, 07:07:20 PM
That's not true either.  Legality, like ethics, is largely a non-issue to the modern corporation.  They are concerned with cost versus benefit, and there are a huge number of companies that actively flout the law, where the penalty, of a few thousand, is a minor cost against the reward of hundreds of thousands.  Further, there are companies who base their business on the unlikelihood of being convicted for practices that they do which deliberately and knowingly flaunt the law, but do so in a risk-managed way.
I work for a corporation that has very strict policies in place that prevent all sorts of activities on a large and on a single-employee scale precisely because we scrupulously follow the law. While you're right that there's a cost-benefits analysis involved, "jail time" is the cost of not following these laws, and so they're VERY careful about it.

I get illegal phone calls all the time, calls that ignore the laws on unsolicited sales calls, and even ignore the 'do not call' registrations, made from companies in territories that do not have those laws, but fully on behalf of companies here in my home country.  This is an example of outright illegal activity that is circumvented with ease, knowing that the chances of actually being prosecuted are small.
That's sad, but I am certain there are also companies that would make such calls were they legal that do not, as well. Perhaps you should start taking information down and see if you can't find enough others who are also receiving these calls to make those companies in violation find themselves in a few prominent "Action 2 News" type stories?

A lot of business operates in 'grey areas' of the law, despite the fact that there is no such thing.  The law is either black or white.  Grey areas are where there is a gap between the black of what is forbidden and the white of what is allowed that companies are able to slip their activity into.
Technically, if something is not illegal, it is legal. There's no gray area, as you said. The black of what is forbidden is the only area that is not the white of what is allowed.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 01, 2012, 07:18:28 PM
That would be the RICO Act - Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.  Property acquired through illegal means can be seized.

Hm. I wonder if RICO would be applicable here? They'd have to be charged with two Racketeering crimes within 10 years, from What I've read.

Let's see...The "Garriot Letter" Appeared to have been settled without charges, but there's still the apparent overvaluing of IPs. What else?

*"gambling, murder, kidnapping, extortion, arson, robbery...dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled substance or listed chemical" seems unlikely.
*Counterfeiting, Embezzlement, slavery, money laundering, and murder-for-hire are also not likely.
*Bankruptcy fraud is definitely not happening.
*Drug Trafficking is unlikely.
*No Copyrights seem to be infringed
*Doesn't appear to be any money laundering.
*Obviously no trafficking of aliens.
*Also obviously no acts of terror.

That leaves possibilities of bribery, theft, fraud, obstruction of justice, and securities fraud are the only things that could possibly fit in their MO. I'm not assuming that they have recently done any of this, but if we're looking for things they could be charged with under RICO, it'd probably be those.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 01, 2012, 07:35:09 PM
I'd rather keep things civil, if you'll pardon the pun.

By which I literally mean, non-criminal. Pursuing them on criminal grounds makes us look petty and desperate. And while a touch of desperation in the "we're the little guy and we have no power save our voices and our choices" sense is appropriate and true, pettiness is our enemy.

The more we keep courts and law out of this, the better. The more we make it about their PR and how their stock-holders see their management, the better.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 01, 2012, 07:38:44 PM
I understand. Simply thinking aloud.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on November 01, 2012, 07:41:54 PM
Let's see...The "Garriot Letter" Appeared to have been settled without charges, but there's still the apparent overvaluing of IPs. What else?

Again, if the $80m is real and not something that somebody pulled out of their butt, being unreasonable in negotiations is not against the law. Neither is negotiating in bad faith if you don't intend to approve any deal. Petty and shortsighted, sure, but unfortunately there are no laws against being a douchebag.

If they actually lied directly to their investors, those investors (not some third party) might have a case for fraud. But proving willful intent to mislead in such a case would be very, very difficult.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on November 01, 2012, 08:00:14 PM
Again, if the $80m is real and not something that somebody pulled out of their butt, being unreasonable in negotiations is not against the law. Neither is negotiating in bad faith if you don't intend to approve any deal. Petty and shortsighted, sure, but unfortunately there are no laws against being a douchebag.

If they actually lied directly to their investors, those investors (not some third party) might have a case for fraud. But proving willful intent to mislead in such a case would be very, very difficult.
Hmm...

(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/titan/th_jeep_brah_coh_freedom_1.jpg) (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/titan/jeep_brah_coh_freedom_1.jpg) (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/titan/th_jeep_brah_coh_freedom_2.jpg) (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/titan/jeep_brah_coh_freedom_2.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 01, 2012, 08:07:37 PM
I work for a corporation that has very strict policies in place that prevent all sorts of activities on a large and on a single-employee scale precisely because we scrupulously follow the law.

I would be very interested to know what company that is, because companies like that are the ones who get first consideration for my business.  I am in know way trying to pull info from you that you do not want to give, but that kind of at least appearance of responsibility from a corporation is a refreshing change from the perception to the contrary that we get from the media.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on November 01, 2012, 08:33:58 PM
If it's anything like the company I work for, they probably only deal with a very specific segment of the public sector.  :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kheprera on November 01, 2012, 08:37:03 PM
Mine is like that.


8)




What?  ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 01, 2012, 08:59:31 PM
Yeah, I work for a defense contractor. The name is not well-known outside the defense contracting industry, but it was once a spin-off from Lockheed Martin. I've worked here since June, and so far, they've been nothing but stand-up, friendly, and overall a great place to work.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Twisted Toon on November 01, 2012, 09:30:31 PM
What this is really pointing out is that RPG alignment systems are of limited applicability to the real world.  Can be fine in a game, because the rulebook can say *exactly* what they are supposed to mean.
It also points out one of the reasons I never really liked D&D.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 01, 2012, 10:35:45 PM
I'm ex-Navy, but that doesn't really qualify me to patronize a defense contractor.

We have one, here, that has changed hands a few times. I think Tenneco was the last major corporation to own it, but it's locally owned, now. It's always been a good place to work, if you can get in the door.  :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 02, 2012, 05:44:56 AM
Let me say I very recently got the $80 million figure from a third-party source I consider trustworthy, along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring, but I need to get confirmation of that figure from the parties directly involved.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 02, 2012, 05:49:52 AM
Let me say I very recently got the $80 million figure from a third-party source I consider trustworthy, along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring, but I need to get confirmation of that figure from the parties directly involved.

I have also received that same information.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 02, 2012, 07:19:44 AM
Let me say I very recently got the $80 million figure from a third-party source I consider trustworthy, along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring, but I need to get confirmation of that figure from the parties directly involved.
We also need to have confirmation of precisely what that $80 million was supposedly for.  Was that to buy out the entire game, studio and staff as well?  If so, that's pretty much in the ballpark I'd expected all along.  If that is $80 million for just the intellectual property rights, no code, data, etc, then its a ridiculous valuation... but still $20 million less than one single branding TV ad campaign in the US alone.  In other words, we still know we can stack the deck to make giving it away for goodwill and positive publicity cheaper than hanging on to it and repairing the PR damage.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 02, 2012, 07:38:23 AM
"...along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring...."

We anxiously await the expiration of NDAs.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on November 02, 2012, 04:29:11 PM
We also need to have confirmation of precisely what that $80 million was supposedly for.  Was that to buy out the entire game, studio and staff as well?

Just the IP, but without ridiculous strings being attached. Presumably would have to include the code, at least I would hope.

I'm not sure if that includes the account database though. Fairly certain it doesn't include server hardware, and definitely doesn't include things like the office assets, desktop PCs, etc.

I don't know if we'll ever get the full details stated publicly, it depends if certain things that were trying to be forcibly enacted ended up happening or not.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 02, 2012, 05:06:49 PM
Just the IP, but without ridiculous strings being attached. Presumably would have to include the code, at least I would hope.

I'm not sure if that includes the account database though. Fairly certain it doesn't include server hardware, and definitely doesn't include things like the office assets, desktop PCs, etc.

I don't know if we'll ever get the full details stated publicly, it depends if certain things that were trying to be forcibly enacted ended up happening or not.
It is utterly frustrating to not even know how to get in the know on things like that. It sounds fascinating.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on November 02, 2012, 05:11:47 PM
It is utterly frustrating to not even know how to get in the know on things like that. It sounds fascinating.

I'm certain it's much more frustrating for people like VV who might be "in the know", but can't talk about it and correct inaccuracies, for fear of making things even worse for the people who are already being screwed.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 02, 2012, 05:14:18 PM
Probably. I know the one small thing I knew that I was asked not to share was frustrating to not be able to share. But...knowing was better than not, to my mind.

I like understanding things. If I understood them well enough, I could make broad statements like "your anger is justified" or "your anger is unjustified; I can't say why, but believe me, there are no bad guys here." Or, if I couldn't, at least I would know what the situation was (and maybe, just maybe, at least be able to privately brainstorm solutions. Nothing upsets me more than insoluble problems).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 03, 2012, 05:23:30 AM
Just the IP, but without ridiculous strings being attached. Presumably would have to include the code, at least I would hope.

I'm not sure if that includes the account database though. Fairly certain it doesn't include server hardware, and definitely doesn't include things like the office assets, desktop PCs, etc.

I don't know if we'll ever get the full details stated publicly, it depends if certain things that were trying to be forcibly enacted ended up happening or not.

For reasons I have explained before (but will reiterate here) 80 million for the IP and code is utterly ridiculous.

Book rights are worth close to zero because the original CoH books did so very poorly.  You would be hard-put to find a publishing company willing to take the project on now; even if one did, it would be at the standard advance of about $5k-$10k per book that an unpublished author gets.  The books would probably have to be self-published which opens up another can of worms--editing, printing and distributing those books would be very costly.

Comic rights: see book rights.

Move rights: movie rights are already tied up in a previous option.  At the moment they are worth nothing.  When the current option lapses, they will be worth at maximum $25k a year.  Movies are seldom made about dead games. 

Other gaming rights: the game is dead, long live the game?  Given what we've been doing, the gaming rights for other sorts of games are probably also worth close to zero.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 03, 2012, 11:08:41 AM
For reasons I have explained before (but will reiterate here) 80 million for the IP and code is utterly ridiculous.
If it in fact does include the code (not yet confirmed?), VV, that makes quite a difference.  The code *is* the creative work and the license to publish it.  In book terms, its like granting not only the rights to use the characters and settings, but also granting all the works to date and full publishing rights, along with royalties etc.

But we are not talking books here, but software.  The code *is* the software and the product.  Sure, I personally still think the price is too high, but now probably only by double, rather than ten-times and so.  In other words, its a point to negotiate from.  Many negotiations begin with the seller asking double the value and the buyer offering half, and negotiating (haggling) from there to get to a deal.

All in all, an idea of price is a good thing, as it does allow for the starting of negotiation and offer.  We already had the means to drive down the asking price, but now we have a ballpark figure of where it is, and know that it is within the realms of possibility to achieve.  Even 80 million, assuming it does include all the code, is at least a starting point.  We know that one TV campaign in one country can cost more than that. 

Again, these comments are assuming that it does include the code itself - the software.  If this is purely the IP then you are right, 80 million is a ridiculously unrealistic amount, designed purely to declare they are unwilling to sell at all, and only putting a price on at all so they can tell their stockholders that they did not actually close the door to offers.  (They just made the door completely inaccessible, the wrong size, and otherwise completely unfeasible to use).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 03, 2012, 03:52:34 PM
Good post, Gangrel.  Yes, I think that's pretty much spot-on, as I'd estimated in my original post on the topic some time back:

Now, from what I've seen and understood of the financial state of Paragon Studios and CoH, as a company it would likely (my opinion and estimate only) be valued at around $100 million as a complete business to takeover.  Remember, that's isn't to make a profit for shareholders, that's it reasonable value, so to speak.  In my professional opinion, anything lower than a value of around $50 million would be a complete insult.

I can tell you that I know (but cannot divulge my sources) that none of the offers made to NCsoft for CoH were anywhere near even half of that.  Steam offered something like $3million plus some profit share.  Imagine how such an offer as that must come across to a people whjo are known to be concerned about saving face and not insulting people.  Wow.  I wouldn't even speak to such insulting people either.

The other offers were all ridiculously low too.

That's not Steam's fault.  To them, CoH is seen mostly as low-hanging fruit, able to be easily plucked.  A game that is 8 yrs old, with small profits, in an ever-increasingly competitive market, and with a declining customer base.  Oh, and during a recession.


Of course, values on things are always a tricky business, and effectively, a pure guess.

As a general rule, a service business is valued at around its annual turnover, because Service businesses have very low barriers to entry, and are effectively dependant on the staff who provide the service (who may leave in a takeover).  Meanwhile a tech business is generally valued at 2-5 times its annual turnover, dependant on the amount of patents and intellectual property, because those create far higher barriers to entry.  But all of these valuations are based on the idea that just because a business did X amount of business last year, it should do about the same this year, and could do better if better managed...

The selling price of a thing is really determined by the guesses of two different parties.  The value the seller estimates his thing has, and the value that a potential buyer estimates the thing has.  Usually the two negotiate to some kind of compromise, but only if there is room somewhere in the middle.  If the two different opinions of value are just too far apart, generally no negotiation happens.

You can understand why Steam would offer so little for the game, considering they'd been mailed and told it was basically dead in the water and ripe for a low-ball bid to steal.  I can conversely understand why NCsoft may be asking so much, though I do think they are being unrealistic in the current economy and market (the increasing number of choices in MMOs in the market do mean that each can expect less market share, etc, current economic predictions are bearish on MMOs, and there's a global recession).

Of course, my initial valuation estimate was made assuming that it would be a takeover of the entire business, premises, staff, etc.  However, since the staff and premises both add ongoing costs, especially with the heavy over-staffing at Paragon due to development, these things don't add as much value to the business as you may imagine.  They just save a company having to organise location and recruitment for themselves.  The servers are not necessarily a major cost either, so again, including or excluding a load of second-hand servers may not affect the value that much either.

I personally think that all of the offers made by outside companies, including Steam, were at least under half what they'd have needed to be to be taken as a serious point of negotiation.  Ten million *might* have been enough to start a serious discussion, but less than 5?  No.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on November 03, 2012, 04:58:01 PM
Let me say I very recently got the $80 million figure from a third-party source I consider trustworthy, along with some other information that would probably send blood pressures soaring, but I need to get confirmation of that figure from the parties directly involved.

I have also received that same information.

I also received that same information from a third-party source I consider trustworthy.  While this doesn't necessarily make it 100% correct (it could, in theory, all be the same source who is incorrect), it does mean that VV, Codewalker, and other people here aren't just making stuff up.  :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: BryanSnowden on November 03, 2012, 10:03:34 PM
Are we sure it's not 80 Million "Won"?
OR, even if that was the *ahem* "offer" *ahem* couldn't we try to counter-offer/suggest  with whatever 80 million "Won" is in "Dollars" & if they balk suggest we saw/or didn't see - the $ sign - or that it was lost in translation??

*Actually, I just checked - using the converter I googled up it was around $73,333* So that might be "a slap-in-the-face"  :roll:
But, maybe we could go with something along this line of reasoning. Sorry, but $80 million is way more absurd in my mind than $73,333 is = while they still might see that as absurd & we might all agree - it's more than they can make off of it sitting in their basement till they go out of business...
Because unless they seriously surpirse us with the an ideal *CoH 2* that let CoH characters transfer in with more or less equivalent "stuff"/stats=(for lack of a better word)/etc.  Then, the odds that we're gonna play it would be miniscule... at best.
Somehow, We need to get to the 'stock holders/share-holders (more or less the same)
AND the 'stakeholders' (which can be totally different folks) = something i didn't realize until fairly recently when I was digging thru some investment guides & whatnot...

SURELY, stakeholders could be persuaded that 80 million Dollars US is pie-in-the-sky & NOT a realistic price = and therefor this "we;ve exhausted all options is a crock of "stuff"
I also noticed that the S.Korean Government has like 9% of the NCsoft Stock (I think), maybe there's some possibility of leveraging that = what government is going to think sitting on IPs forever = while essentially killing-off most/any of the innate value they may  possess (or might have have once possessed).
I mean, that's nothing short of destroying an asset, No?  It sure is IMO & I think that this a view that we could persuade others to agree with, and possibly more importantly "side with" - in any sort of (future?) "persuasive bargaining" that could lead to a deal that is a "win-win" for all involved, OR for those with "leverage to influence" said deal.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 03, 2012, 11:16:02 PM
Because unless they seriously surpirse us with the an ideal *CoH 2* that let CoH characters transfer in with more or less equivalent "stuff"/stats=(for lack of a better word)/etc.  Then, the odds that we're gonna play it would be miniscule... at best.
Sadly most business decisions are short-term, within the magical 5 year plan at best, but assets are thought of as longer, and therefore somewhat fuzzily planned for, if at all.  Often assets are hoarded as 'something we know we'll find a use for'.

I've been saying for a while that where we have power is that for NCsoft this is just business.  Its not personal.  And their business decisions are honestly no worse than the decisions made in corporations you use and are not railing against, from your bank to your telecom supplier, and from your utility suppliers to your local branch of Starbucks.  In other words, they are all just as shortsighted and idiotic in their own ways.

We can beat them every time because for us this is not just business.  Its not just about money.  Its about principles and value beyond dollars, which lets us apply planning and tactics that are wider than the bottom line profit.

But slapping them in the face makes it personal to them too.  At which point, we lose their predictability, and our advantage.

I can appreciate that many of you do not think $80 million is realistic.  Just like I don't think £5 or more for a burger is realistic, or £3 for a cup of coffee.  I went to a Planet Hollywood once, back when they were still fairly new, and that had to be the most unrealistic pricing I'd ever seen in my life ... and the place was packed.  All I could think of was that scene in Pulp Fiction where Vincent (John Travolta's character) can't get his head around the idea of a $5 milkshake that Mia (Uma Thurman) has ordered.

None of that changes that Planet Hollywood was packed full, just like the fictional restaurant in Pulp Fiction, and just like all those overpriced coffee shops are.  It may be a price we personally find ridiculous, but its obviously working for their target market.

I don't think $80 million is really ridiculous or incredible if it includes all of the code (not least because that might include the code as is for i24 that was almost ready, so you are buying software with the big new update almost ready to launch).  I think it is a high asking price, but an asking price is just that.  It is only the opening move for negotiating the price down.

Now sure, if that is $80 million for just the IP and no code at all, then yes, it is ridiculous.  So perhaps we need to confirm whether or not that does include the code before we comment further.

Either way, until recently many were speculating that NCsoft were refusing to entertain offers at any price, so having an $80 million figure is still a massive improvement on thinking that to them sitting on the IP was priceless.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 04, 2012, 04:57:47 AM
if the rumors are true and ncsoft does value coh at $80 million, then i too think that is prolly a gross overestimate of what it prolly is

i think coh could possibly top out at maybe $20-40 million (and even then that is prolly high estimate)

i hope that ncsoft will reconsider selling before we have to start fanning the fires
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on November 04, 2012, 05:01:57 AM
Just a note, as far as I know, stock price is often determined not just by how well a company is doing now, but their potential to do well in the future (This basically makes it a weird kind of betting, but that's a bit of a tangent).  NCSoft's stockprice quite likely has some amount of inflation because of investors expecting them to actually expand into a market that's not Korea and do well at some point.

Our PR efforts remind investors of exactly how horrible NCSoft has been at expanding into other markets, and how little effort they put into understanding other markets so they can succeed in them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 04, 2012, 10:43:58 PM
Quote
and how little effort they put into understanding other markets
That makes an assumption they put any effort into it. Does not seem to be the case. NCSoft is THE company with most MMO shutdowns under its' belt to date.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on November 04, 2012, 10:44:10 PM
I don't think $80 million is really ridiculous or incredible if it includes all of the code (not least because that might include the code as is for i24 that was almost ready, so you are buying software with the big new update almost ready to launch).  I think it is a high asking price, but an asking price is just that.  It is only the opening move for negotiating the price down.

$80 million is extremely ridiculous, especially considering that the game is 8-1/2 years old.  Just to put this in perspective, this is more than the budget of all but the biggest blockbuster movies that come out.  Making a top-tier AAA brand new game would only run at most around $100 million; typically it actually costs much less.  Don't be fooled, $80 million is a slap in the face, NCsoft's way of telling everyone who asks that they're not going to sell the game, and the fact that they later said that they had "exhausted all possibilities" in keeping the game alive is an insult to its players.

I can't prove this, though I hope that at some point others will come out publicly regarding this, but I've gotten from multiple reliable sources that several attempts at negotiating reasonable terms for sale--counteroffers to NCsoft's opening move--were attempted and rebuffed.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kosmos on November 05, 2012, 01:08:29 AM
$80 million is extremely ridiculous, especially considering that the game is 8-1/2 years old.  Just to put this in perspective, this is more than the budget of all but the biggest blockbuster movies that come out.  Making a top-tier AAA brand new game would only run at most around $100 million; typically it actually costs much less.  Don't be fooled, $80 million is a slap in the face, NCsoft's way of telling everyone who asks that they're not going to sell the game, and the fact that they later said that they had "exhausted all possibilities" in keeping the game alive is an insult to its players.

I can't prove this, though I hope that at some point others will come out publicly regarding this, but I've gotten from multiple reliable sources that several attempts at negotiating reasonable terms for sale--counteroffers to NCsoft's opening move--were attempted and rebuffed.

This runs parallel to my beliefs/estimates. At most I could get up to $25-30M for CoH (engine, code base, content and IP including CoH2, etc), NCsoftcore's customer accounts for CoH players, Paragon Studios (which had already been disbanded and the office stripped) and some sort of hosting agreement for at least 6 months. The only really tricky things for valuation, IMO, are the customer account value and CoH2's value. Because after disbanding PS and tossing their customer goodwill on a bonfire, they'd gutted the value of the rest of assets. An $80M starting offer would make me think I was buying a bridge in a recently storm-wracked New York borough.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 05, 2012, 01:26:14 AM
This kind of valuation is not my specialty, but yes, you could easily shoot City of Heroes, the Movie with an all star cast for $80 mil.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 05, 2012, 03:58:02 AM
$80 million is extremely ridiculous, especially considering that the game is 8-1/2 years old.  Just to put this in perspective, this is more than the budget of all but the biggest blockbuster movies that come out.  Making a top-tier AAA brand new game would only run at most around $100 million; typically it actually costs much less.
Well, my speciality is in mainly other forms of internet and tech business, from software to ecommerce sites.  The sales of such companies as Uswitch (circa £95 million-ish) and Dialaphone (£88 million) are my kind of experience and neither cost anywhere near 80 million to make.  If they did, there would be no profit or point to building and selling companies.

City of Heroes is not a movie.  It isn't something that costs $80 million to make then is expected to gross over $200 million within a few months, and after that get another surge with DVD and finally TV licensing before then just giving residual royalties.  City of Heroes is a product that people subscribe to and keep paying for year after year after year.  What was the last $100 million movie you spent $15 every month on for 8 yrs?  Its a whole different business.

The game engine is basically 8 yrs old, sure.  But it has been subject to continued maintenance, development and improvement for all of those years.  Issue 24 is bang up to date and still has so many features other games have no comparison to.

Sure, the game looks older than many less playable alternatives.  But contrary to those chasing the quick buck of games with no longevity, graphics are often the least important aspects of a game for its success.  Did anyone ever call Civillization cutting edge for graphics?  What about Day of the Tentacle?  Lego Star Wars?

Often the very best and most long-lived games are those where graphics were considered very far below content and playability in the pecking order, making games that were graphically 'meh' even at the time some of the greatest games ever.  But other than the look of CoH what part is old?  The stories added with each issue?  The powers added to every year?  Or is this really a game that is not so much 8 yrs old, as a game with almost a decade of development behind what it is today - the best Superhero MMO ever made?

Games development is not my field specifically.  Movies certainly arent.  But building, selling and buying businesses as money-making machines are.  An asking price of $80 million probably means the company would settle for $40 million, which personally, I think is definitely high, but still worth considering.

In business we often talk about the 'build or buy' decision.  I think that is essentially the difference in our opinions, Tony.  Of course I can build something as good or better than CoH given about $30 million and 3 years or so.  In doing so I know that I'll have to wait three years to make back one dime, and probably 4 years before it generates one single cent of profit, if all goes well, and there are no unforeseen issues that mean the game never gets finished at all (happens to investors all the time).  And if in the 4 years no bigger better MMO comes out that scuppers mine.  If people even still play MMOs by then...

Alternately I can buy a game where someone already took all those early developmental risks, did the years of work, and launched it successfully, and strat taking money tomorrow.  Someone's done all the work for me, and for that, yeah, its going to cost a bit more than making it myself.  If its escaped your attention, it is also cheaper to make your own dinners than takeout, to make your own clothes, furniture, even to build your own house.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on November 05, 2012, 05:33:14 AM
Alternately I can buy a game where someone already took all those early developmental risks, did the years of work, and launched it successfully, and strat taking money tomorrow.

I would agree with this if City of Heroes were making as much money and had the subscriber base that it did at, say, launch and if it were still polished enough that it competed with current games not just graphically, but mechanically.  But it's doesn't.  The value of the game has depreciated over time, not increased.  I'm not saying it's worthless, mind you; if I thought that, I wouldn't have attempted to contact NCsoft to try to work something out and I seriously doubt anyone else would have.

But this game didn't cost $80 million to make.  Optimistically, it might make $3 - $5 million per year, assuming that sales don't drop during that time.  At that rate, it would take at least 16 years to recoup your money, possibly more.  NCsoft knows that no one is going to buy a game that, if they're able to keep it up-to-date for another 16 years, MIGHT come in the neighborhood of making back what they invested in it, at which point they MIGHT, if all goes impossibly well, actually make a tiny pittance of profit on it.

Asking $80 million wasn't just unreasonable; like I said, it was a slap in the face.  In fact, $40 million would have been a slap in the face, too.  The opening position if NCsoft were serious should have been somewhere in the $5 - $10 million range, and even that would need to be negotiated down some before someone wouldn't feel like they were selling their soul to Satan for buying it.

Plus, as I said, it wasn't like NCsoft tried in earnest to negotiate that price.  They stuck to it and then put out this insulting communication saying they had "exhausted all efforts."  That's BS, plain and simple.  With no game making money, as it is now, the property is worth $0 to them.  Not literally, not mathematically, as I'm sure it shows up with some figure next to it (hopefully not anywhere $80 million unless they're outright lying to financial authorities), but practically, it's dead weight to them.  If I offered them $10 on December 1 for it (not $10 million; 10 dollars), that would be $10 more in their company coffers than there was before with what they're doing with it now.  So yeah, $80 million was a joke.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 05, 2012, 05:52:50 AM
from what ive read around here i heard that valve supposedly offered $3 million for coh, which i think was pretty generous as it was pretty close to that $5-10 million top range that tony was talking about
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JaguarX on November 05, 2012, 06:21:19 AM

SURELY, stakeholders could be persuaded that 80 million Dollars US is pie-in-the-sky & NOT a realistic price = and therefor this "we;ve exhausted all options is a crock of "stuff"
I also noticed that the S.Korean Government has like 9% of the NCsoft Stock (I think), maybe there's some possibility of leveraging that = what government is going to think sitting on IPs forever = while essentially killing-off most/any of the innate value they may  possess (or might have have once possessed).


I seriously doubt that anyone or entity that owns a significant amount of stock in NCSoft, even say 5% is totally blind about this transaction. They probably knew about it when the decision was made.

I dont know about anyone else but I yet to ever hear about any major investor, especially on the professional level that have no clue on what major moves transpire in a company they have a major holding in, especially as something as big as a "realignment.

Many people get the view that investors just throw money at a company and forget about it. Yes, many small timers do but when you are talking about 5% and up of a major company it would be the first time in history that the person or someone hired by that person is not watching the moves the corporation make like a hawk. Although I dont think the government gives a hoot about what NCSoft sits on as long as they get their cut.

And remember 5-10 miilion is nothing for them. That's toilet paper money. I'm not sure myself what they are getting out of it by sitting on the IP, but given that the company havent been ran into the ground in at least these 5 years since they bought COX I assume someone in that place have some sort of sense. They might be thinking thta they might just want to use it later and if they sell and then decide they want to revive it, you think who ever bought it will want to 3-4 years later after getting the game up and running and assuming it's success, want to sell it for say $5 million that is a reasonable offer now? Suppose it valued at $20 million then. That is $15 million lost to get something back that they could have just kept in the first place. The downside, and the part that I cant wrap my head around is that if they sit on it, as time go by, less of a chance of it ever returning to it's glory days under them. I'm not sure what they are doing or trying but I'm not a CEO of a major game company and I'm sure it takes a little bit of a different logic than many of us understand. Or else we'd all would be big fat cat million and billionaires leading major corporations that is making more money with each passing year.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 05, 2012, 07:01:11 AM
Optimistically, it might make $3 - $5 million per year, assuming that sales don't drop during that time.
Let me say up front that in arguing with you, Tony, I in no way do not hold you in high regard and respect you.  Quite the opposite.  If I didn't respect you so much I'd not spend so much time on our discussion. :)  However, I stil, respectfully, disagree, and I want to explain why.

I think a lot of the people pouring over the figures for NCsoft were estimating that CoH was generating between $3 million to $5 million a year in profit.  So they agree with you here.  But this neglects two major factors. 

First is that Paragon was massively overstaffed with developers, many of whom were apparently working on new secret projects that were generating no revenue, and did not contribute to earnings for CoH.  Lets imagine for a moment that all of the 80 devs were on pathetic wages of $25k a year, and that's $2 million just in the wages they take home, before factoring in taxes, pension contributions and the various other costs.  In the companies I've been involved in we usually estimate it costs double the actual wage for each member of staff, so $4 million if all of those 80 developers were on a lowly wage of $25k a year.  Cutting the developers working on new secret projects unrelated to CoH, reducing staff to levels needed to maintain and develop CoH directly, would most likely double the profit of CoH at a stroke, and very possibly more than double.

Second is that CoH was pretty poorly monetized generally.  The in-game store was doing fairly well, but we all know it was still getting traction, and that much more could have been done with paid add-ons.  The attempt to add an advertising based revenue stream was frankly bad, and doomed to fail from the start.  Nothing was done with sponsorship, and merchandising (Mugs, Mouse-mats, Bags, Jackets, etc) was barely thought of.  Usually, again, these kinds of revenue streams can double the overall profits.

In other words, proper marketing, not being dictated Korean style from a thousand miles away, could have easily had CoH earning at least $12 - 15 million in profit a year. 

Let's face it, a huge part of our shock and surprise over the closure of CoH is because we all knew instinctively that it should be making good profit, and we'd all seen things NCsoft just didn't seem to see, or in some cases, actually dragged their heels over when the ideas came from Paragon itself.

NCsoft would have known precisely how much of the potential profit of CoH was being spent on staff, premises, and other expenses, and just how much of those expenses were effectively used in long-term investment rather than actually on keeping CoH profitable.  If they are valuing the company high, there is probably reason for it, and not all of that reason will be ego.  None of it will be unwillingness to sell at the right price.  A board of directors isn't allowed to do that.  They have to serve the interests of the shareholders, except occassionally where duty to the stakeholders may dictate taking a short-term loss to maintain a long-term position.

If you'd like some illustrations from other businesses, I'll happily share some, like how Amazon was losing billions of dollars a year in the early years to gain volume.  Many who don't know such strategies compared their practices to selling dollar bills for 50 cents a shot and thinking that if they only sold enough of them they make a profit :).  Fact is it got them the volume to negotiate deals from suppliers noone else matches.  Amazon can now sell goods for a profit at less cost to the consumer than most stores can even buy the goods from the manufacturer.  Such is the power of bulk discounts.  Some very strange seeming practices are loss-leader tactics that make solid sense, even when outsiders don't see it.


Suppose it valued at $20 million then. That is $15 million lost to get something back that they could have just kept in the first place.
Exactly right.  Plus add in the thing that there are two sides of value.  The value to the buyer, and the value to the seller, and they don't always coincide.  That you can't see why NCsoft value CoH so high is going to be partly because that's the point.  A company doesn't want all its strategies to be transparent and visible.  They obviously do believe that CoH is more value to them by far than any offers made, but explaining why might only open the door to rivals hoping to exploit the same knowledge.

Stick to a fact - Guys who have built a multi-million dollar game, who have that much business knowledge and strategy, value it higher than those outside do, right now.  Each have their own reasons and bets behind their positions.  NCsoft are not mad, or stupid, so when you work out the other reasons for them not selling cheap, you'll be closer to working out their true position and strategy. 

If we are in a fight with NCsoft, the last thing you ever want to do in a fight is underestimate your opponent, especially in terms of his strategy.  It is much safer to assume he knows exactly what he is doing, and prepare for that in your own moves, than to assume he does not.  There is good reason that many corporate executives study Sun Tsu, and understand that hiding your true intentions in moves is good strategy.  Appear stupid and you will always beat your opponent while the fool is still laughing at you.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JaguarX on November 05, 2012, 07:45:04 AM
Let me say up front that in arguing with you, Tony, I in no way do not hold you in high regard and respect you.  Quite the opposite.  If I didn't respect you so much I'd not spend so much time on our discussion. :)  However, I stil, respectfully, disagree, and I want to explain why.

I think a lot of the people pouring over the figures for NCsoft were estimating that CoH was generating between $3 million to $5 million a year in profit.  So they agree with you here.  But this neglects two major factors. 

First is that Paragon was massively overstaffed with developers, many of whom were apparently working on new secret projects that were generating no revenue, and did not contribute to earnings for CoH.  Lets imagine for a moment that all of the 80 devs were on pathetic wages of $25k a year, and that's $2 million just in the wages they take home, before factoring in taxes, pension contributions and the various other costs.  In the companies I've been involved in we usually estimate it costs double the actual wage for each member of staff, so $4 million if all of those 80 developers were on a lowly wage of $25k a year.  Cutting the developers working on new secret projects unrelated to CoH, reducing staff to levels needed to maintain and develop CoH directly, would most likely double the profit of CoH at a stroke, and very possibly more than double.

Second is that CoH was pretty poorly monetized generally.  The in-game store was doing fairly well, but we all know it was still getting traction, and that much more could have been done with paid add-ons.  The attempt to add an advertising based revenue stream was frankly bad, and doomed to fail from the start.  Nothing was done with sponsorship, and merchandising (Mugs, Mouse-mats, Bags, Jackets, etc) was barely thought of.  Usually, again, these kinds of revenue streams can double the overall profits.

In other words, proper marketing, not being dictated Korean style from a thousand miles away, could have easily had CoH earning at least $12 - 15 million in profit a year. 

Let's face it, a huge part of our shock and surprise over the closure of CoH is because we all knew instinctively that it should be making good profit, and we'd all seen things NCsoft just didn't seem to see, or in some cases, actually dragged their heels over when the ideas came from Paragon itself.

NCsoft would have known precisely how much of the potential profit of CoH was being spent on staff, premises, and other expenses, and just how much of those expenses were effectively used in long-term investment rather than actually on keeping CoH profitable.  If they are valuing the company high, there is probably reason for it, and not all of that reason will be ego.  None of it will be unwillingness to sell at the right price.  A board of directors isn't allowed to do that.  They have to serve the interests of the shareholders, except occassionally where duty to the stakeholders may dictate taking a short-term loss to maintain a long-term position.

If you'd like some illustrations from other businesses, I'll happily share some, like how Amazon was losing billions of dollars a year in the early years to gain volume.  Many who don't know such strategies compared their practices to selling dollar bills for 50 cents a shot and thinking that if they only sold enough of them they make a profit :).  Fact is it got them the volume to negotiate deals from suppliers noone else matches.  Amazon can now sell goods for a profit at less cost to the consumer than most stores can even buy the goods from the manufacturer.  Such is the power of bulk discounts.  Some very strange seeming practices are loss-leader tactics that make solid sense, even when outsiders don't see it.

Exactly right.  Plus add in the thing that there are two sides of value.  The value to the buyer, and the value to the seller, and they don't always coincide.  That you can't see why NCsoft value CoH so high is going to be partly because that's the point.  A company doesn't want all its strategies to be transparent and visible.  They obviously do believe that CoH is more value to them by far than any offers made, but explaining why might only open the door to rivals hoping to exploit the same knowledge.

Stick to a fact - Guys who have built a multi-million dollar game, who have that much business knowledge and strategy, value it higher than those outside do, right now.  Each have their own reasons and bets behind their positions.  NCsoft are not mad, or stupid, so when you work out the other reasons for them not selling cheap, you'll be closer to working out their true position and strategy. 

If we are in a fight with NCsoft, the last thing you ever want to do in a fight is underestimate your opponent, especially in terms of his strategy.  It is much safer to assume he knows exactly what he is doing, and prepare for that in your own moves, than to assume he does not.  There is good reason that many corporate executives study Sun Tsu, and understand that hiding your true intentions in moves is good strategy.  Appear stupid and you will always beat your opponent while the fool is still laughing at you.

yeah.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kosmos on November 05, 2012, 08:31:04 AM
The game engine is basically 8 yrs old, sure.  But it has been subject to continued maintenance, development and improvement for all of those years.  Issue 24 is bang up to date and still has so many features other games have no comparison to.

The game engine is at least 10 years old, and the design is close to 12. You need to date to when the tools were designed, not when the first finished product using them hit the market. Also, it wasn't being developed or improved all those years. In fact, it was rarely being worked on during that period. And some of the work didn't go very well. Even Ultra Mode is rather disappointing - giving very poor performance for the graphics quality. It wasn't until the last 2 years or so that any significant programming work was done on the engine outside of Ultra Mode. Which is why we started seeing all the new mechanics added crammed into this last period.

I think you're making a gross miss-estimate in equating a game engine and code base built on it to other software tools and products. It doesn't comprise a group of copyrights/patents/trade secrets that have intrinsic value as the latter often do. Because game engines such as this one are so highly optimized for their environment (otherwise they'd be garbage), they are more properly compared to firmware in terms of life expectancy/portability than to software (not exactly, of course... I suggest it as a possible idea to change point-of-view). We're talking firmware in control circuits for a specialized piece of machinery sort of value. Which after 10-12 years is exactly nothing unless you're still selling the same product. No one in their right mind developing a new game would come to NCsoftcore asking to buy or license the game engine unless they were also getting the CoH code base, content, IP, etc. That is, unless they intended to sell the same product. Given that... the game engine, code base and developed content really don't add any value beyond CoH being a $10M/yr gross business with expansion potential. There were other assets that did add to that, but the game engine isn't really one of them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 05, 2012, 09:15:27 AM
With all due respect to Ammon, $80 million is not merely a "high" asking price. It is, in fact, not really an asking price at all. If the rumors of this offer have any basis in fact, then the quoted price can only be understood as a message---one that harbors considerable irony.

I do not think for one second that NCsoft has any intention of entertaining reasonable offers for the intellectual property rights of CoX. This is because the closure of CoX was probably not a business decision, at least not in a purely objective microeconomic sense. Indeed, their actions, and the circumstances surrounding them, invite the conclusion that senior management at NCsoft are simply on a vendetta. Throwing a tantrum, in other words.

NCsoft reportedly spent 25 billion won (about $22 million) to develop Aion...from scratch1. Perfect World purchased former CoX developer Cryptic Studios last year for $49.8 million---a price tag that included the intellectual property, assets, employees, customers and goodwill for Star Trek Online, Champions Online and the yet-to-be-released Neverwinter2. Frankly, the only companies that are willing to pay rates in line with what NCsoft is apparently asking are behemoths like EA, which has recently shown interest mostly in portfolios with audiences so large that the entire peak playership of CoX would look like a fly in a hurricane, by comparison. And even the fantastically-spendthrift EA disaster that was SW:TOR “only” cost $200 million to produce3.

No, the rumored $80 million tag should absolutely not be interpreted as an offer-in-good-faith. You see, the US-developed game Tabula Rasa cost NCsoft a widely-estimated 100 billion won to develop. At today’s exchange rates, that would be about $90 million. Of that $90 million, almost half went to just two people: Richard and Robert Garriott, the developers behind Ultima and its many descendants, in addition to several other games. While the Garriotts may have an enviable history in the annals of gaming, sinking over $40 million into just a game designer cannot be called fiscal realism. A better label might be “sugar daddy.”

In essence, the senior management of NCsoft (primarily just Kim Taek-jin) placed a huge bet on the delightful fantasy that the Garriott brothers could walk on water: that they would deliver a WoW-grade property. It was the same fantasy EA-Bioware had about SW:TOR, and like that game, it was not to happen. Tabula Rasa was reported by the Korea Times to have returned only about 10 percent of its development cost, yielding a loss of…wait for it…$80 million. In fact, if the recent compensatory judgment awarded to Richard Garriott for actions taken by NCsoft at the time of his termination stand, the total loss on Tabula Rasa will greatly exceed the entirety of its originally-allocated budget.

Consider also that Robert Garriott, Richard's brother, served as president of NCsoft’s entire North American operation for six years, while Tabula Rasa was in development. He was ousted at the end of 2007 (or “promoted” to global business development, depending on how you look at it) and replaced by an Asian…just after the unimpressive launch of Tabula Rasa. Let it not be said that NCsoft never made an attempt to allow non-Korean management of their North American operations---they did, in a very big way. And by their reckoning, I’m sure they feel mugged, raped and humiliated as a consequence. The later law suits merely added to the indignity.

Robert Garriott’s “promotion” happened to coincide not only with the public release of Tabula Rasa, but with the space escapades of brother Richard, who was the lead game designer. Immediately prior to the launch of Tabula Rasa, at a time when the game was already giving warning signs of public dissatisfaction through its various betas, Richard Garriott began preparations for a $30 million joy-ride to the International Space Station aboard a Russian rocket. The profligacy and timing of his trip unquestionably incensed senior management at NCsoft---even prior to this episode, executives at NCsoft had actually resigned due, at least in part, to dissatisfaction with the Garriotts4. Before Richard’s feet hit Earth again, his future at the company had been decided: there was to be none.

I point all this out not because I care about Tabula Rasa (I never played it, since it was effectively a PvP-only game and I do not like PvP), but to provide some perspective on the closure of CoX. Given the available evidence, the only conclusion I can reach is that CoX was a bystander in what appears to have become a rather ugly, and fairly personal, war between NCsoft and the Garriotts. After NCsoft’s attempt to embrace the American market with doe-like eyes and a reverent belief in miracles, they suffered catastrophic losses at the hands of “outsiders.” Is it really any wonder they have become xenophobic? Their idol turned out to have clay feet. Or maybe lead feet.

Consider it from their point of view: if NCsoft has a history of developing profitable games in Korea for one-quarter the cost of American fiascos, why on earth would they trust another Yankee with their money again? It’s not about Paragon Studios or City of Heroes: it’s about NCsoft Austin and Tabula Rasa. City of Heroes was simply a casualty of war.

Now, a wall-of-text ago, I mentioned irony.

What I see as supremely ironic about the closure of CoX is that NCsoft is visiting our little community with precisely the same kind of treatment they themselves received in their experiences with the Garriotts. Many players of City of Heroes/Villains have made considerable temporal and financial investments in the game. Despite the fact that CoX was able to hold its own weight, it was sacrificed for the losses of another entity---an outsider. Nothing more than collateral damage from a policy reversal brought about by NCsoft’s attempts to wash the bad taste of Tabula Rasa---and its subsequent law suits, which were probably the final straw---out of its mouth.

In the aftermath, I do not feel that NCsoft treated me like an intelligent and valuable customer; to the contrary, they treated me like a lobotomized livestock animal, and I resent it with a visceral animosity unfit to reduce to text. It’s one thing to make a business decision and ask me to suffer for it: I will not call for anyone to operate at a loss on my behalf, as was arguably the case for Tabula Rasa. It is, however, quite another thing to throw a nationalistic---almost racist---tantrum and expect me to quietly pay for it. I have a very, very long memory for such slights.

The poison has come full circle: the injuries NCsoft suffered vis-à-vis Tabula Rasa (without regard to fault) appear to have given rise to their planned divestiture from American-managed game production; symmetrically, the patronizing “nullspeak” I have suffered at the hands of NCsoft---to say nothing of their intransigent “negotiating” position---have led me to divest myself of them, and everything they are associated with, utterly and completely.

Personally, I have spent time and money on Guild Wars, Aion and a tiny sliver of the Guild Wars 2 launch. I tried Lineage II once, but was ganked by a high-level player right outside the starting village and uninstalled the game. I have recommended many of the less sociopathic NCsoft games to friends, and actually purchased a few copies of GW1 to give to people I know. I had even gotten one of my friends who is not an avid gamer to pre-order GW2 before the axe fell on CoX.

What the executives at NCsoft do not seem to fully appreciate is that at least part of the river that flowed through CoX watered the rest of their garden. When those waters are dammed at the source, the losses can easily extend throughout the ecosystem in ways that are not always immediately visible or obvious. Opportunity costs are seldom binary, nor are they always quantifiable in advance.

(1) http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2009/12/123_54507.html
(2) http://www.joystiq.com/2011/08/09/perfect-world-completes-cryptic-studios-acquisition/
(3) http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2012/01/20/star-wars-the-old-republic-the-story-behind-a-galactic-gamble/
(4) http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2007/09/123_10753.html
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on November 05, 2012, 11:37:22 AM
Holy shit...

That pings with the resonance of truth Undercat. Hell even the NUMBERS match up!

I didn't think anyone could make me hate NCSoft more than I already did. But this just... there are no words.

Do you mind if I re-post this to the COH facebook pages I'm a part of? Or direct links back? This is EXPLOSIVE and needs to be spread around.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 05, 2012, 01:07:21 PM
Is it possible that a major part of that $80 mln is their perceived value on customer data and account data?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 05, 2012, 01:26:53 PM
Do you mind if I re-post this to the COH facebook pages I'm a part of? Or direct links back? This is EXPLOSIVE and needs to be spread around.

Be my guest. Just be mindful that these facts, while suggestive, do not prove a causal link beyond doubt. Especially the coincidence of the asking price matching their initial losses---it may actually be the message I see it as being, but I would never attempt to testify to that effect.

I posted my thoughts here precisely because this is the heart of the community that was directly affected by NCsoft's actions. I haven't seen this connection made before and wanted to contribute my thoughts on the matter in an attempt to bring resolution to the questions surrounding the closure---to offer one more possible piece of the puzzle.

Facebook is not the heart of this community and as you can probably deduce from my post count, I'm not really big on starting firestorms. Moreover, I'm not altogether unsympathetic to their travails; my beef is what they did to me as a result. I was a perfectly satisfied customer. I could have forgiven the closure of a game that was actually losing them money. But the more I dug, the more I began to suspect it never had anything to do with CoX at all. And that really aggravated me. Their political-candidate-grade nullspeak only managed to inflame that aggravation.

So, if you have some other CoX community that is mulling about for answers to the question "why?", then by all means post away. But please be careful.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DamianoV on November 05, 2012, 01:43:51 PM
Just wanted to chime in with my own (obviously biased) perspective:

In brief, an object for sale has only 3 values: the revenue/utility you can get from it yourself, the amount someone else is willing to pay you for it, and $0.  The utility of CoH to NCSoft on Dec 1 is so close to $0 as to be indistinguishable from that number, and the price anyone will be willing to pay will be dropping like a stone as well.  If NCSoft is unaware of that at this point, they are fools of the first water, and fully deserve the loss of potential revenue that has, and will continue, to result.

Because you see, the true value here is not the code, the IP, the servers, the corporate structure, or even the devs, bless them all.  It is the _formerly_ active and loyal customer base.  And that value is already significantly depleted, being lost day by day, and will soon be so far diminished as to be effectively gone.

For NCSoft, at least.  Speaking as someone who's played and payed continuously since Day 1... that well has been well and truly poisoned.  Their only chance at getting anything tangible out of this debacle at this point is to sell it as fast as possible.... and they apparently have no such intent.  Too bad for them.  There are other companies to patronize and other services (Plan Z?) to support, after all.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 05, 2012, 02:20:39 PM
I have to admit, I have never heard about 1/2 the Tabula Rasa budget going towards the Garriots.

I just went and dug up some my sources, all of which are from exactly the same paper you reference. In this article (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/common/printpreview.asp?categoryCode=123&newsIdx=32607) the fee is stated as being $16 million each. Now the slight difference in magnitude doesn't bother me---exchange rates fluctuate and they probably use the current exchange rate each time they quote costs like these---the question is whether it was x1 or x2. I don't know. And, of course, NCsoft bought out the Garriott's newly-founded game company specifically to produce a next-gen MMO, after their non-compete with EA had expired from the prior sale of Origin. That cost went somewhere. But I admit that what, exactly, is being included in the 100 billion won price tag quoted for Tabula Rasa is unknown to me and may or may not include any of these.

The fact that the same paper is quoting the 43 billion won acquisition price of the Garriotts and their game company in the same breath (along with the 2 million share options) in this article (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/common/printpreview.asp?categoryCode=123&newsIdx=32607) is what led me to believe that the figures had been merged.

Quote
And Garriott had planned the trip and received approval from NCSoft to take the trip. Although *at one point* he wanted NCsoft to sponsor him (probably to help diffuse the costs), he ended up footing the $30million himself. Infact, he was already in training to go up into space during 2007 (source: Space.com (http://www.space.com/4410-astronaut-son-signs-space-tourist.html)

He did more than that. He convinced Kim to take a whole bunch of NCsoft employees on a null-gravity ride in the "vomit comet" some time before Garriott decided to take the actual trip to space. The plane ride was footed by NCsoft to the tune of $150,000, and Kim was one of the participants. There are numerous articles at Korea Times talking about Garriott's later trip to space and how displeased NCsoft was with it; moreover, the fact that they essentially fired him while he was in space says it all.

There are about 30 articles I went through by doing a site search at Korea Times. Wish I'd actually kept a log of each article so I'd know exactly where they were, but it wasn't my priority at the time.

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Tabula Rasa was mainly a PvE game... it might have had the 3rd person action PoV (well, just like CoX really), but it was *not* a PvP focused game. It did have PvP, but you had to make the choice to go into it. It was not possible to go around just randomly ganking players. Sorry, had to correct that, as I played it from closed beta to closure.

I had heard that there was virtually no PvE content or experience in it at launch and that the real focus of the game was PvP, like Aion, but as I said, I didn't play it. I didn't play Aion until rather recently, either, after they had developed quite a bit of PvE content for it. If I hear that the focus of a game is PvP, I seldom pay any attention to it at all. (edit: I should point out that this is one of the reasons I'm leery of posting my comments outside this forum---such things actually do influence some people who are just feeling about for opinions and don't take the time to verify those opinions. I have a client, for example, who had a bad experience with HP and refuses to deal with them any more. None of my other clients have this issue---they didn't have the bad experience. Should I take this client's bad experience prima facie and not use HP products anymore? See, this is one area that I'm very careful about. Games, on the other hand, I'm not so careful about... ;) )

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If CoX is just purely an innocent bystander in the fight between Garriott and Ncsoft, then why did it take almost a year for the closure to come through (and this was after the final judgement from the Garriott Vs NCsoft court case)?

It didn't. The xenophobia set in almost immediately, as you can easily verify by reading the various postings from American NCsoft employees about how they were treated by their Korean supervisors. It wasn't an accident that Korea clamped down on their US operations as tightly as they did. I'm sure they felt pretty badly stung by their social experiment of letting an American head the show for several years.

As for the closure of CoH, Richard Garriott's lawsuit regarding compensatory damages for his forced stock sale is probably what made them decide to throw in the towel completely. I suspect they viewed the entire American social and legal systems as being just too much bother. Develop at home and ship it abroad; no need to worry about obnoxious court systems that award huge damages to wayward employees with "poor work ethics." What it was, exactly, that finally put the wheels in motion is a question I cannot answer; what it was that set it into motion is a little more clear to me...or are you claiming that NCsoft's experience with Tabula Rasa had nothing whatsoever to do with their unwillingness to use American developers?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on November 05, 2012, 02:36:31 PM
Robert Garriott’s “promotion” happened to coincide not only with the public release of Tabula Rasa, but with the space escapades of brother Richard, who was the lead game designer. Immediately prior to the launch of Tabula Rasa, at a time when the game was already giving warning signs of public dissatisfaction through its various betas, Richard Garriott began preparations for a $30 million joy-ride to the International Space Station aboard a Russian rocket. The profligacy and timing of his trip unquestionably incensed senior management at NCsoft---even prior to this episode, executives at NCsoft had actually resigned due, at least in part, to dissatisfaction with the Garriotts4. Before Richard’s feet hit Earth again, his future at the company had been decided: there was to be none.

You know, that's one of the reasons I've been steering clear of the various Garriott discussions. I know a lot of people are fans, and there's the whole controversy over the resignation letter being used to force him to exercise stock options early (and the resulting lawsuit). However I remember hearing about his 'joyride' right after TR launched and thinking some very unkind thoughts about the type of person who would spend that kind of money on diversions while his huge budget game was floundering.

TBH, if I were Taek Jin Kim, I probably would fired him, too. I doubt I would have closed TR, because there was always the potential it could be salvaged and make up some more of the losses, but who knows.

I really hope that the closing of COH and "realignment of company focus" are not fallout from that fiasco. It would be a shame.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 05, 2012, 03:26:34 PM
Wow...

...that's all I can say, Undercat. Excellent analysis. Because this Garriott guy struck out, the Koreans wanna go hide under the covers. It defies all logic of course, yet it explains so much.

Thanks for unveiling all that. So the folks at NCSoft, lost in their xenophobia and their grudge, really do have their fingers in their ears as we on the other side of the Pacific and the language barrier throw a vocal conniption of our own.

Pfft! What a pathetic way for this great game to end. Sure wish it had never been sold to NCSoft in the first place.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 05, 2012, 03:36:55 PM
Wow...

...that's all I can say, Undercat. Excellent analysis. Because this Garriott guy struck out, the Koreans wanna go hide under the covers. It defies all logic of course, yet it explains so much.

Thanks for unveiling all that. So the folks at NCSoft, lost in their xenophobia and their grudge, really do have their fingers in their ears as we on the other side of the Pacific and the language barrier throw a vocal conniption of our own.

Pfft! What a pathetic way for this great game to end. Sure wish it had never been sold to NCSoft in the first place.

it really is pathetic, but i agree with tony that if coh didnt get bought by ncsoft the game could have ended many more years ago

however to see something like this happen is inexcusable and they shouldnt be allowed to get away with it
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Osborn on November 05, 2012, 03:59:50 PM
You know, that's one of the reasons I've been steering clear of the various Garriott discussions. I know a lot of people are fans, and there's the whole controversy over the resignation letter being used to force him to exercise stock options early (and the resulting lawsuit). However I remember hearing about his 'joyride' right after TR launched and thinking some very unkind thoughts about the type of person who would spend that kind of money on diversions while his huge budget game was floundering.

TBH, if I were Taek Jin Kim, I probably would fired him, too. I doubt I would have closed TR, because there was always the potential it could be salvaged and make up some more of the losses, but who knows.

I really hope that the closing of COH and "realignment of company focus" are not fallout from that fiasco. It would be a shame.

My thoughts on Garriott's joyride through space are similar to those of CoH. If TR failed, then fine. Let it fail properly without putting a knife in its back, bow out gracefully and open source or sell the IP to somebody else who wants to keep the project running, even if they're bad at it (such as Garriott himself who tried to buy the IP).

I feel muchly the same way about CoH. If CoH was to fail, fine, but don't put a knife in its back and open the code up to people who want to let the game continue.

I mean, if Garriott or Paragon Studios couldn't run their respective game, fine, I just wish they were given the chance.

I hate this sort of thing where an IP can be hoarded by people with no intention to do anything with it when it still has potential. I'm completely fine with the concept of patents and copywrite in general just against this sort of sitting on good things to make slightly less good things more profitable.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 05, 2012, 05:44:32 PM
You know, that's one of the reasons I've been steering clear of the various Garriott discussions. I know a lot of people are fans, and there's the whole controversy over the resignation letter being used to force him to exercise stock options early (and the resulting lawsuit). However I remember hearing about his 'joyride' right after TR launched and thinking some very unkind thoughts about the type of person who would spend that kind of money on diversions while his huge budget game was floundering.
I'm with Codewalker on that. 

But more than that, have any of you ever worked with Corporations?  Legal looks over everything which means most of even the simplest decisions take months.  Basically, sure, the CEO can often bluster past that, but it is prety darn rare and so against corporate culture.  If you want to start speculating and creating conspiracy theories, ask yourself why a corporation, with running stuff past legal teams even before blowing their noses, put out a forged letter? 

My only logical conclusion is that, for whatever reason, NCsoft were certain Garriot would acknowledge and agree with the letter when he landed.  I honestly can't think of any realistic rational alternative that fits with the fundamentals of how corporate culture works.  NCsoft were lead (by something) to believe that Garriot would ratify their letter, and instead found themselves in a massive lawsuit.  But his brother got a nice promotion in the same company right about the time the letter was done ...

Anyway, that's very wild speculation that I'm not presenting as anything but a purely personal speculation and opinion.  Certainly not an actual allegation that NCsoft were set up for a sucker punch in the courts that gained a massively overpaid person even more millions.


If we are to look at coincidentals and circumstantial evidence for clues about why CoH was closed, you know that the most likely is simply the 5 year timeline.

In an earlier post I bolded the words '5 year plan' because these are absolute golden words in marketing and investment.  Well, funnily enough, the decision to close CoH and paragon came really close to that 5 year date - how close I can't know without knowing when the decision to purchase Paragon was first touted (thus how much of the lead-in to buying time was in the 5 year plan), and how much sunsetting was included.

Business today is ruled almost utterly by the 5 year plan.  Too much so for my tastes by far, but I generally have to fit all my own work into such plans by my clients, and speak in their language, so I'm all too familiar with the term and its importance.  Businessmen and investors don't even move into an investment without looking for their exit strategy (the bit where they get out again with a ton of profit).

I would be utterly amazed if there were not a 5 year plan for Paragon Studios and CoH, or rather, a 5 year plan within Paragon, that they worked to, and a higher level 5 year plan of performance management that NCsoft refered to all along.  The decision to close Paragon Studios may literally have been made 5 years ago, based on performance indicators at various milestones, and especially at the 5 year stage.  Either the company, project, or product hits its targets (KPIs) at various points, or sooner or later it reaches a deadline at which it is scrapped.  No excuses, and no "But its so close now".  They draw hard lines just as professional gamblers do, and for the same reason.  If it hasn't paid off as expected by a certain time, you cut your losses and move on.

Now, I'm not presenting this as what happened either.  We can't know.  But I can tell you that this is precisely what gets most companies and products shut down.  They are given deadlines and performance targets, with a certain amount of leeeway, but at a set point a blunt decision is made with no grey area.  It either hit the target or it didn't.  If 5 years of knowing targets didn't let people hit them then another 5 months won't either.

The one fact we have to stick with is that offers of buying the IP didn't tempt a company (people paid to make money, not make personal decisions or play politics) to sell.  Whether or not their valuation was realistic, it will NOT be personal or political reasons, but ones that go into a balance sheet.  Let's not make it any more complex, or add any conspiract theories that just cloud the issue.

The root issue is very simple.  NCsoft value the thing far higher than any bidder so far has.  Our one hope is to lower the value they perceive it having, or at least to add in extra value in some way to getting rid of the problem.  Isn't that clear enough without needing to speculate much more?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on November 05, 2012, 05:52:58 PM
Considering that Arenanet and Carbine Studios are American studios, I would be inclined to disagree with your statement that NCsoft is unwilling to use american/european developers. It would probably be more accurate to say that NCsoft are unwilling to support something that doesn't fit in with their roster of game. Now, if something *does* appeal to them, then I believe that they would support it, especially if it is suitable for their own market. For something that is suitable for the US market alone? Possibly not.

That's an interesting point. How DOES Arenanet fit into all of this? Why are they allowed the amount of autonomy that they obviously are?

In fact it is possible for a gamer who's not in touch with gaming news to pick the product up off the shelf and completely miss the fact that this is an NCSoft product, with the absolute minimal NCSoft branding in the product. Though Arenanet are wholly owned by NCSoft, their "leash" seems to be amazingly loose.

Is it simply because of the proven track record with GW1? But if that's the case, why wasn't Paragon Studios given such freedom? 

Why the HELL did Arenanet get to develop Guild Wars 2 and Paragon Studios repeated efforts to make COH2 were shot down???

Something doesn't add up here. NCSoft is paranoid about all Western effort EXCEPT Arenanet and Guild Wars? The Hell??

Is it simply that GW 1&2 are Fantasy Games and the business model of Micro-transactions fits better with the Korean "model"? 



Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on November 05, 2012, 06:09:56 PM
Now, I'm not presenting this as what happened either.  We can't know.  But I can tell you that this is precisely what gets most companies and products shut down.  They are given deadlines and performance targets, with a certain amount of leeeway, but at a set point a blunt decision is made with no grey area.  It either hit the target or it didn't.  If 5 years of knowing targets didn't let people hit them then another 5 months won't either.

But the Paragon Studios team, all of them, were surprised by the closing.  If there were targets to hit, they were never told about them.  Which is pretty ridiculous.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Osborn on November 05, 2012, 06:14:37 PM
But the Paragon Studios team, all of them, were surprised by the closing.  If there were targets to hit, they were never told about them.  Which is pretty ridiculous.

Or if there were targets to hit, they were hidden from the development team up until Black Friday.

That said, some responsibility for 'hitting targets' has to lie in the hands of the Publisher. The Developer can make a great game, but if the Publisher doesn't actually, you know publish the darn thing with any sort of advertisement budget, I'm not sure how entirely that's the development team's fault.

"Here, you have the best aim in the world. Hit this target... without a crossbow or anything to fire." is still a recipe for setting them up to fail.

And despite that they were still running in the black and making progress on the game at a somewhat fantastic rate, especially for an 8 year old game. So they were given nothing to fire and still hitting (known) targets with thrown rocks.

That's pretty impressive for a team in a genre that's in itself failing in general just based on shear saturation.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 05, 2012, 07:15:26 PM
But the Paragon Studios team, all of them, were surprised by the closing.  If there were targets to hit, they were never told about them.  Which is pretty ridiculous.
Every company I've known to be closed through not hitting its targets is surprised they were not given an extension, or more understanding.  Every single one.  Or they say the targets were not realistic, or some other reason why they thought that they'd be the exception.  But as I say, its a hard rule that protects the professional gambler - there are no exceptions.

We know that time and again City was supposed to be revitalised and turned around. 

CoV for instance was supposed to bring in a whole new mass of players, almost doubling the player base by adding in villains and pvp to draw in new customers the game had not attracted before.  It most definitely failed to hit the performance it had promised, and instead, split the existing playerbase, such that each side seemed a bit less populated than before, and starting the disatisfaction about how hard it could be to find redside teams.

Of course, that was all under Cryptic, so lets look at ... Going Rogue.  Yeah, that hit all its targets didn't it?

Closing the French and German language support seem like a target in the original plan?  A sign of success?  How about closing the Offices in the UK for Europe?

Plans are usually about either growth, or milking cash during a sunset period.  City was not growing, so anything in that plan of five years about growth was not being hit.  Yes, the Market brought in extra revenue ... but did it take the income back to CoH's strongest point of subs?  Did it undo 5 years of declining player numbers?

We know, and have known for some years, that CoH has never been close to attaining what it had hoped to.  We just don't know how many of those hopes were actually the basis of financial performance targets.  The only persons who could tell us would be the head of Paragon Studios and the CFO there.

Again, I'm not putting thise forward as anything but an example that one doesn't have to get into conspiracy theories to speculate.  Occam's Razor will always say that failure to hit performance targets for Growth (and the game was shrinking, not growing) is alone enough reason to close many businesses.

The bottom line is still the same, it was profitable, but not profitable enough to run, but the current thinking on the value of the property is higher than anyone has come close to bidding.  Those are facts, and all else is speculation, which barring insider financial reports and reading contracts, are just blind guesses.

We should spend most of our time working on changing the valuations of what it is worth to sell, and what it is costing to keep closed, rather than on speculation and guesswork that we can never prove, and doesn't change the underlying need of what we must do.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on November 05, 2012, 08:27:55 PM
We should spend most of our time working on changing the valuations of what it is worth to sell, and what it is costing to keep closed, rather than on speculation and guesswork that we can never prove, and doesn't change the underlying need of what we must do.

Yes, and what we do know is that the game was profitable, the game devs believed they were doing well, and I believe this is the first MMO shut down that was still profitable and said shutdown was because of the publisher running it (I don't know whether SWG was profitable or not, but that was shut down because lucasarts pulled the license on it).

The notion that something can be shutdown because it's not profitable enough and not in danger of going negative any time soon, and that the fans of it can be prevented from having access to it, is a horrible one and something I think can gain traction outside of our community.

Fear of Valve disappearing with their games is the biggest concern people who don't like Steam have, and that's a company with a sterling reputation, has committed to patching all games on their service for offline if they ever go under (I believe they've already prepared them actually?), has an offline mode for those games anyway, and has commited itself to never letting itself get bought out by anyone.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Luna Eclypse on November 05, 2012, 08:42:36 PM
So yeah, how 'bout dem NCsoft stock prices, eh?

Their value is down to ₩203,500 today; a little over $186 USD if I'm reading the chart right.

Do we have enough severe PR attacks in reserve for after Nov. 30? I reckon there will be a hard drop in their stock value the closer we get to Shutdown, we should have some critically timed press coverage ready to go to capitalize.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on November 05, 2012, 09:59:03 PM
Do we have enough severe PR attacks in reserve for after Nov. 30? I reckon there will be a hard drop in their stock value the closer we get to Shutdown, we should have some critically timed press coverage ready to go to capitalize.

I dunno, but election season in the US is almost over.  Election day is tomorrow (VOTE! If you haven't done so yet, and are in the US).

Should be easier to try and get coverage in non gaming news sites after this.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 05, 2012, 10:04:21 PM
I'm currently reading a book by Richard Torrenzano and Mark Davis on "digital assassination." It's interesting stuff, but there is nothing much in it that I would openly advocate. In fact, I wouldn't even openly discuss any of it on these boards.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 06, 2012, 12:27:28 AM
"Digital Assassination?" I so not like the sound of that. Remember to stay blueside, all. No lies, just the truth as loud as you can.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on November 06, 2012, 12:48:04 AM
Since NCSoft doesn't deal in truth - only in lies - I'd say that to them - Truth = Assassination.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 06, 2012, 03:03:12 AM
Nope! Blue-side, all the way. Just saying: it's interesting reading.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Luna Eclypse on November 06, 2012, 03:42:28 AM
I would advocate that... but that's because I'm vindictive when it comes to useless overpaid corporate scumbags. And that is why I'm not participating in spreading the truth because I'll just start entertaining myself with off-color slander like "NCsoft makes murder porn." (Because I have a dark sense of humor).

So, good luck to those that are staying blue side in the fight. Make sure to lock the padded room after I go in so I don't cause any trouble.  :-X
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 06, 2012, 04:19:08 AM
We should spend most of our time working on changing the valuations of what it is worth to sell, and what it is costing to keep closed, rather than on speculation and guesswork that we can never prove, and doesn't change the underlying need of what we must do.

Ammon's right.  Stay on target.  We can speculate and investigate all we want after we get City revived.  For now, we need, badly, to keep focus.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 06, 2012, 04:23:59 AM
Ammon's right.  Stay on target.  We can speculate and investigate all we want after we get City revived.  For now, we need, badly, to keep focus.
So... just what's the goal then?

Communicate to investors that CoH as it stands is worth less and less with every passing hour, since it's currently generating no revenue and isn't returning anything in exchange for the cost of keeping it?  That CoH's value will drop precipitously when the game is closed, because a large number of dissatisfied customers who feel the closure was premature will simply cease purchasing NCsoft products altogether?  That NCsoft is digging itself a grave when it comes to profits by acting in such a xenophobic way towards its western customer base?

What's the message we need to be getting out, and to whom should that message be directed at?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 06, 2012, 05:00:11 AM
We need to spread two kinds of messages, the overt, and the covert.

The overt:

Attack NCSoft at every possible angle. 

Remind gamers every time an NSoft game turns up in the news that they are the Gamekiller; that time and money invested in an NCSoft game is pouring time and money down a hole, because it can be yanked out from under you without warning at any moment.  This means we have to be vigilant about articles and news-stories and make sure that the comments sections are flooded with our statements. 

Attack NCSoft on non-gaming fronts.  Flood feminist sites with items about the misogynistic nature of Bits and Tits.  Flood Parent sites with the soft-core nature of Bits and Tits, and suggest that if this is NCSoft's new direction, they might want to think twice about letting their kids play any NCSoft game.  Remind the parents of special needs children that NCSoft yanked a tool that had offered demonstrable help to children like theirs out from under those children--and deprived those in the future of that help.  Remind senior citizens that NCSoft yanked a game that they could have been playing with their grandchildren.  Use your imagination.  Above all, make it clear that we are not going away and will continue to point out why they are a company no one should do business with.

The covert:

Spook the stockholders with what we are doing.  Make sure they know what we are doing.  Watch for articles in business journals and sites about NCSoft and add comments about what we are doing.  It probably won't even matter if we make NCSoft lose subscribers; the fact that we are still at work could spook them and drive stock prices down.

As Ammon said, the important thing is to make it clear that we are not going away, that we are going to spend the same time and energy we spent in gaming on bringing the pain back to NCSoft, and that their reputation is eroding and it is going to cost them an increasingly expensive PR campaign.  And that the only way to make us go away is to sell the City to someone who will care for her.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 06, 2012, 05:11:34 AM
That's an interesting point. How DOES Arenanet fit into all of this? Why are they allowed the amount of autonomy that they obviously are?

I wondered about the same thing, but chalked it up to the fact that GW2 had been in development for several years and it didn't seem reasonable that NCsoft would kill ArenaNet before trying to recover some of their investment---especially since they have no motivation to "punish" anyone there, unlike Tabula Rasa with the Garriotts. Besides, it seemed to me that the axe might have swung over ANet next, maybe a year or so after launch, but now, after a bit more digging, I'm not so sure....

Considering that Arenanet and Carbine Studios are American studios, I would be inclined to disagree with your statement that NCsoft is unwilling to use american/european developers. It would probably be more accurate to say that NCsoft are unwilling to support something that doesn't fit in with their roster of game. Now, if something *does* appeal to them, then I believe that they would support it, especially if it is suitable for their own market. For something that is suitable for the US market alone? Possibly not.

I'm now inclined to agree with this statement. Considering that half of WoW's 10 million or so subscribers are in Asia, any game that doesn't have a future in Eastern markets could be assumed to be throwing away a huge chunk of potential revenue---perhaps even the majority of it. ArenaNet has apparently been quite savvy to that fact, targeting GW2 to fit the Asian market from the start; CoX, on the other hand, had no perceivable future there. Not only does ArenaNet have potential value in the East (reference (http://www.thestreet.com/story/11680010/1/kongzhong-corporation-partners-with-arenanet-to-bring-guild-wars-2-to-the-china-online-game-market.html)), but it would seem they have been singing pretty much the same song the Garriotts were singing years ago; namely, that they will deliver a WoW-killer:
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O'Brien [president of ArenaNet] is confident the game [GW2] will overtake "World of Warcraft," the market leader produced by Irvine, Calif.-based Blizzard Entertainment, where he and ArenaNet's other founders worked before starting their studio in 2000. (ref) (http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2015645196_brier18.html)
...and, given historical precedent, this may be precisely what Kim wants to hear...
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ArenaNet kept its autonomy and creative direction, in part because it has enthusiastic support from NCsoft Chief Executive Taek Jin Kim, a gamer and game designer. O'Brien said their conversations tend to be about game design, and Kim wants "to make games that he's proud of, that gamers are going to love and that are going to be the No. 1 games in the industry." (ibid) (http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2015645196_brier18.html)

One of the things that formed my opinion about NCsoft's xenophobia were repeated negative reports in Korea Times, for example:
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Garriott's departure from NCsoft was seen as inevitable, as the company has never been pleased with his work ethic.
...
"And it seems like the company has been evaluating foreign developers more cautiously since all the trouble with Garriott," said an industry watcher. (ref) (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2011/04/133_50226.html)

Yet it seems that NCsoft is still chasing the dream of a WoW-killer. Even after Garriott. So perhaps the closure of CoX was, indeed, not merely a reactionary and xenophobic withdrawal from the American market as either a production or consumption endpoint, but a judgment on the behalf of Kim and NCsoft that "little people don't matter." I find that a little more palatable than a nationalistic tantrum...but not by very much.

As for how the development cost of TR was calculated, to assume that none of the acquisition costs of the Garriotts were credited to the TR project would be to assume that none of their costs were, since the same article describes Richard's total take as being a figure that appears to arithmetically combine his buyout deal and stock option exercise. That, frankly, would seem a little odd to me. But it is irrelevant. While I still feel that NCsoft was stung by the Garriotts, and that the episode had some impact on their relationship with American developers, I concede that it may not have been quite that simple. As I said, I take that as a very small consolation, but right about now, I'll take whatever I can get.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 06, 2012, 05:41:45 AM
Remind gamers every time an NSoft game turns up in the news that they are the Gamekiller; that time and money invested in an NCSoft game is pouring time and money down a hole, because it can be yanked out from under you without warning at any moment.  This means we have to be vigilant about articles and news-stories and make sure that the comments sections are flooded with our statements.

Yes. Regardless of NCsoft's present position with respect to American game development, the fact remains that they exhibit inexcusably callous behavior toward any toys (and customers for those toys) that are no longer of interest to them. Eighty-million-dollars was way out of line, by any reasonable metric for valuation (although I admit that non-stratospheric earnings multiples were put out of fashion by the dot-com boom).

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Attack NCSoft on non-gaming fronts.  Flood feminist sites with items about the misogynistic nature of Bits and Tits.  Flood Parent sites with the soft-core nature of Bits and Tits, and suggest that if this is NCSoft's new direction, they might want to think twice about letting their kids play any NCSoft game.

That might work for some fraction of the overall gaming population...but the fraction is probably not very large. The players of CoX are somewhat different from those in other MMOs I have tried, which is one of the reasons I like it. Consider also that B&S is presently NCsoft's most popular title in Korea. The majority of MMO gamers are probably male, like myself, and have little or no aversion to innocent T&A. In fact, I consider the idea of fantasizing about killing another human being (PvP) to be orders-of-magnitude more offensive than animated titillation. Why not start a crusade about that? Such topics can rapidly polarize people into religiously-devoted camps and could ultimately hurt the aims of the save-CoH crowd more than help it.

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Remind senior citizens that NCSoft yanked a game that they could have been playing with their grandchildren.

This is a problem with the genre as a whole, as far as I'm concerned. It's one of the things that bothers me most about MMOs: they have no durability. I can go to gog.com and buy dozens of games that are 10-15 years old, enjoy them whenever I want to, play them with future generations, etc. No such guarantee exists for MMOs as a whole. Want to play vanilla WoW? Out of luck...gone forever, never to be seen by another soul again. It was simply a service, not art. That's kind of depressing, actually.

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As Ammon said, the important thing is to make it clear that we are not going away, that we are going to spend the same time and energy we spent in gaming on bringing the pain back to NCSoft, and that their reputation is eroding and it is going to cost them an increasingly expensive PR campaign.  And that the only way to make us go away is to sell the City to someone who will care for her.

I whole-heartedly concur. Just please be careful what you do. Large corporations do not need to win in court: they can bankrupt small litigants in pre-trial.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 06, 2012, 05:42:43 AM
Attack NCSoft on non-gaming fronts.  Flood feminist sites with items about the misogynistic nature of Bits and Tits.  Flood Parent sites with the soft-core nature of Bits and Tits, and suggest that if this is NCSoft's new direction, they might want to think twice about letting their kids play any NCSoft game.  Remind the parents of special needs children that NCSoft yanked a tool that had offered demonstrable help to children like theirs out from under those children--and deprived those in the future of that help.  Remind senior citizens that NCSoft yanked a game that they could have been playing with their grandchildren.  Use your imagination.  Above all, make it clear that we are not going away and will continue to point out why they are a company no one should do business with.
And don'y forget one of the strongest accusations of all - NCsoft callously closed a studio putting all of its staff, including but not limited to 80 developers, out of work.  Add in the managers, office staff etc and that's a LOT of people who were fired while working hard and earning profit for their parent company.  How's that for how NCsoft treat loyalty and respect people?

A change of focus would have been putting Paragon to work on something else.  Firing everyone as a reward for years of profitable service is business, but of the worst kind.

To an extent, I would honestly suggest that we play down the pornographic angle of Bits and Tits.  Nothing helps a product succeed more than being told it is disgusting, overtly sexual, or forbidden and bad for you.  How much of the success of Fifty Shades of Grey is down to all the discussion about it being pornographic? 

Parents railing against a game for being overly sexual will make every teenage boy in the world want to play.  Doesn't mean we can't use it for getting feminist support, but we need to be careful that this message is always targeted specifically to that audience.  Not somewhere young men will read it and become more interested in seeing what all the fuss is about.

On top of that, we could be seen as attacking another game.  Isn't our aim to unify players of other games to our cause, not to show them in our actions that we are yet another community of gamers who belittle the tastes of other gamers?  Attacking Blade and Soul directly sends the wrong message, sadly.  If we can use it to get coverage in mainstream, then I believe some of the mixed message may be a cost worth paying.  But if we can instead show understanding and support for all gaming tastes, I believe we'll be more likely to inspire that same supportive acceptance from other gamers too.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 06, 2012, 05:50:56 AM
Well, on account of Bits and Tits, there's also the demographics angle. If the portrayal of female characters is grossly insulting, and male players play it in expectation of scantily-clad co-players, then they'll be sorely disappointed by their absence. I mean, if I were a girl, I'd jump at the chance to play as seven feet of legs with a pair of novelty lemons stapled to two inches between my hips and neck, but that's just me.

Then again, I suppose there'll still be female characters around. I mean, dock workers need love too.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on November 06, 2012, 08:56:32 AM
On top of that, we could be seen as attacking another game.  Isn't our aim to unify players of other games to our cause, not to show them in our actions that we are yet another community of gamers who belittle the tastes of other gamers?  Attacking Blade and Soul directly sends the wrong message, sadly.  If we can use it to get coverage in mainstream, then I believe some of the mixed message may be a cost worth paying.  But if we can instead show understanding and support for all gaming tastes, I believe we'll be more likely to inspire that same supportive acceptance from other gamers too.

I prefer mentioning how I can't trust NCSoft anymore.

That, and the blade and soul female characters are so exaggerated they're the opposite of attractive to me.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 06, 2012, 12:47:45 PM
I prefer mentioning how I can't trust NCSoft anymore.

That, and the blade and soul female characters are so exaggerated they're the opposite of attractive to me.
Indeed. As a caricaturist myself (a profession which relies on visual exaggeration of course), the word I use to describe B&S is this :-

grotesque
1 : odd or unnatural in shape, appearance, or character; fantastically ugly or absurd; bizarre; (horribly) distorted.
2 : a piece of work in this style


Caricature is one thing, but the art of caricature is knowing when exaggeration crosses a line. If you step over that line, what you create is no longer a caricature, but a grotesque. The figure art style in B&S has crossed that line. I find it visually repellant. The landscapes and scenery however should be commended - they're actually rather pretty and atmospheric.

It's interesting, this whole notion of 'outrage advertising' of course - saying something is 'disgusting' or 'obscene' has always been a trick to get folk curious. In the case of something like B&S however, such a bloom of interest could actually ultimately work in our favour. If the game got a boost of players from 'outrage advertising', that would look good for the company...but only until 90% of those players left once they'd seen what the fuss was about, and realised the game is actually so culturally alien to them that there's no reason to stick around. And then that sudden drop in playerbase looks bad for the company.

Time will tell I guess.

I think the message we need to get across is one of BETRAYAL. CoH is chugging along nicely for 8 years, there's no indication of anything different...then suddenly, bang, goodbye and goodnight. Our loyalty disregarded, 8 years worth of financial support for NCsoft cast aside, our wishes ignored. In short, we have been betrayed. And it is our right to let everyone know that, both because we're aggrieved and to hopefully prevent other people from suffering as we have.

And if that affects NCsoft stock price, then perhaps they might not be so hasty to betray their customers again in the future.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 07, 2012, 05:30:49 AM

That might work for some fraction of the overall gaming population...but the fraction is probably not very large. The players of CoX are somewhat different from those in other MMOs I have tried, which is one of the reasons I like it. Consider also that B&S is presently NCsoft's most popular title in Korea. The majority of MMO gamers are probably male, like myself, and have little or no aversion to innocent T&A. In fact, I consider the idea of fantasizing about killing another human being (PvP) to be orders-of-magnitude more offensive than animated titillation. Why not start a crusade about that? Such topics can rapidly polarize people into religiously-devoted camps and could ultimately hurt the aims of the save-CoH crowd more than help it.


I'm taking a cue from modern marketing here. For instance, did you know that Budweiser has ads that are ONLY placed in gay magazines?  The rest of the public never sees them.  Many other products do the same.  I'm suggesting a targeted approach, so that we send specific messages to specific groups.  Feminists will be offended by the objectification of women in Bits and Tits; parents will be outraged at the T and A.  Gamers?  Never mention it.  Target them with a message that they will consider relevant.  The whole idea is for anti-NCSoft messages to be hitting cyberspace and hopefully the news from every possible angle, and for reactions to be coming from places NCSoft never anticipated.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 07, 2012, 08:38:26 AM
I'm suggesting a targeted approach, so that we send specific messages to specific groups.
...
The whole idea is for anti-NCSoft messages to be hitting cyberspace and hopefully the news from every possible angle, and for reactions to be coming from places NCSoft never anticipated.

I see. That's a somewhat safer strategy. On the other hand, consider that products like beer can be marketed to antagonistic groups with relative safety because their native social domains tend to be non-intersecting: the patrons of redneck bars are not likely to be found in bath houses, and vice-versa. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about online games. There, the communities are merged into a single cauldron under one rule system and implementation. To the extent that a game is explicitly tailored to suit one extreme of a social dipole, a sacrifice is inevitably made with respect to the other extreme.

Still, different groups will tend to focus on different things, even in relatively neutral environments, so I agree that the subgroup-targeting tactic is perfectly reasonable and probably quite effective in the general case. It is, at any rate, less polarizing than blanketing the earth with messages tailored to one particular creed (unless they are your intended customers, of course).

There is, however, still one other thing to consider. The videos that people have seen of B&S are almost exclusively those of the Korean version, and Asian cultures have rather recently acquired a comical fixation with exaggerated female proportions. I've been a big anime fan for many years, and you can trace the trend quite easily in that medium. It may be risky to draw conclusions about the expressive possibilities for avatars in B&S from the few existing examples we have access to---perhaps the players responsible for those videos explicitly chose to make their toons look ridiculous, whereas a more moderate player might be able to use the same tools to produce anatomically neutral renderings. This disregards NPC appearances, of course, since such things might be tweaked to suit cultural preferences, as so many other things are, when a game is localized.

And frankly, CoX isn't much different when it comes to avatar variability. Strip a female toon down to bikini briefs and move the proportion sliders to one extreme or the other and you can wind up with a character that looks just as bad as the ones I've seen for B&S, though admittedly they will look bad in different ways. Fortunately, most CoX players are not enamored with that particular look, but it certainly can be done. I think it's kind of risky to take an anti-T&A stance when CoX isn't exactly squeaky clean itself.

As for the "objectification of women" argument, I truly shuddered when I read that. Why stop there? What percentage of the male population do you suppose fits the image of a hulking and muscle-bound übermensch? Certainly not me. Also, while I may not be a spring chicken, I'm not quite yet a wizardly gray-beard...nor am I a tiny flaming lizard-man, a metallic android mastermind, an anthropomorphic stone monstrosity, a soldier with mechanical spider legs sprouting from my back, a tiny pixie-like sylph, or a dangerously-built and suggestively-clad, fire-blasting femme fatal. Yet I play all those characters, and more. I've probably had nearly as much fun in the character creator as I've had in the game, and the various costume contests that always seem to have been running on Virtue suggest that others shared the sentiment.

So why invite the Nazi PC-police to the party? I came to this little paradise to escape the insanities of the real world; the instant said insanities rematerialize in a world, I tend to pull a stealth maneuver.

I say this not as an attack on you personally, nor even on your suggested methods in general. Like me, you obviously are pretty pissed off about how the CoX closure came about and the fact that a whole world of lore is being snuffed out without recourse. I said elsewhere that one of the things I like least about the MMO genre is that it has no intrinsic durability. Unlike other video games, you cannot stash them away for a rainy day, to drag out years later for a little reminiscing. Once they close up shop, the art is destroyed. Forever. That may not be criminal to the fat-wallets who dominate our legal system, but it damned sure seems criminal to me.

Other promising MMOs have been acquired by third parties when their parent companies went under, though with even a slightly profitable userbase, such closures might not come about at all. Just look at Anarchy Online. Even the extraordinarily-niche game "Myst Online" managed to reopen in 2010 after suffering a financially-driven shutdown that led their extremely tight-knit community to exactly the same kind of quandary that CoX now faces, right down attempts to create alternative implementations. Sociologist Celia Pierce even wrote a book about it ("Communities of Play").

It's offensive that we should have to fight to resurrect a profitable game against a company that is financially solid. While the red-side player in me might want to indulge in fantasies of driving NCsoft into liquidation, just to shake them loose of their IP, the blue-side player realizes that it is categorically impossible and probably not even desirable, as it would only inflame other groups who enjoy their remaining titles (at least for the moment). The odds are definitely against us. Hopefully, if we squeak loudly enough, Dumbo might lift his foot to see what he stepped on.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 07, 2012, 12:57:17 PM
You mention Redside/blueside, but that seems to be a narrow interpretation of it. Plenty of vigilantes would see NCSoft fall, and plenty of villains (Xanatos, anybody) would simply do whatever was most pragmatic.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Artillerie on November 08, 2012, 03:23:27 AM
Just saw this on Facebook - a sudden drop for NCSoft :

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS

Apparently the lowest price in 2 years according to comments there.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on November 08, 2012, 03:32:31 AM
Just saw this on Facebook - a sudden drop for NCSoft :

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS

Apparently the lowest price in 2 years according to comments there.
(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/th_Motivator-Schadenfreude.jpg) (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/Motivator-Schadenfreude.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 08, 2012, 03:39:12 AM
Y'know, looking at this, the word I'm getting is less of a "drop" and more like, well... this (http://youtu.be/_d8ROhH3_vs?t=9s).

And it is positively delightful.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 08, 2012, 04:00:51 AM
Blood in the water.
Consequences are dire.
Give us our game back.

^_^
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 08, 2012, 04:01:54 AM
Look out, NCsoft.  I just saw Captain Mako circling around your stock options.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on November 08, 2012, 05:12:15 AM
Look out, NCsoft.  I just saw Captain Mako circling around your stock options.
"Are you outta your MIND? You're in SHARK territory now, NCsoft!"

(Fresh in my mind after documenting Infernia last week.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on November 08, 2012, 05:51:23 AM
Just saw this on Facebook - a sudden drop for NCSoft :

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS

Apparently the lowest price in 2 years according to comments there.

Not that I'm not heavily enjoying the schadenfreude here -- MUAHAHAHAHAHA!! *ahem*  ;D

but...

What the HECK just happened????   :o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 08, 2012, 06:09:43 AM
Not that I'm not heavily enjoying the schadenfreude here -- MUAHAHAHAHAHA!! *ahem*  ;D

but...

What the HECK just happened????   :o

Maybe just tied into the election? Thought I saw a headline this morning online somewhere that there was a bit of a stock panic today.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on November 08, 2012, 06:15:01 AM
Ahhh yes of course. Stands to reason that Wall Street are in a panic that Obama's been re-elected. He's about the most anti-business chief executive this country has ever had.

I was hoping it was more due to the Starburst article (though I thought that was a long shot). But this makes more sense.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 08, 2012, 06:16:32 AM
Why would a stock panic in the US effect a company on the Korean market? I think there's something else in play.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on November 08, 2012, 06:21:03 AM
Well consider - it's all connected - if U.S. Stocks tumble, then that's affecting the western market. Less value for the stocks = less value for the companies = less disposable income = less willingness to hire people = fewer jobs = more people under-employed = less disposable income for things like games and entertainment.

And the fact that this is heading into the Christmas Season is just doubly bad.

EDIT: So yeah - that's going to affect NCSoft because that means fewer people are willing to buy their games.

Of course we could be having a small effect even with all of this. If people have less disposable income, they're going to want to be much more careful of their purchases. They may actually be researching the games ahead of time. And a google search on NCSoft might just be turning up a few negative things here and there...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 08, 2012, 06:23:34 AM
Well consider - it's all connected - if U.S. Stocks tumble, then that's affecting the western market. Less value for the stocks = less value for the companies = less disposable income = less willingness to hire people = fewer jobs = more people under-employed = less disposable income for things like games and entertainment.

And the fact that this is heading into the Christmas Season is just doubly bad.

I am aware of that, I just don't think the effect is that great.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on November 08, 2012, 06:27:08 AM
Ooooh...


Just as a "for example" I just now did a basic "News for NCSoft" search on Google and Look what just floated to the top! 

http://my.mmosite.com/2281165/blog/item/ncsoft_killing_them_softly.html (http://my.mmosite.com/2281165/blog/item/ncsoft_killing_them_softly.html)

(Gonna go do a quick crosspost on this up in the "Thank the media" thread.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 08, 2012, 06:43:17 AM
I am aware of that, I just don't think the effect is that great.

Sadly, it doesn't usually take much. You can make a million jokes about it. I used to make a crack that there was a perk to living in the Middle East during the wars, because any civilian could influence global gas prices just by making an obscene gesture at an occupying soldier.

More recently, one on the Onion that was absolutely priceless. "Dow Jones plummets due to rumors of Dow Jones plummeting."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 08, 2012, 03:21:16 PM
If the US economy tanks, then the world has a good chance of following it... and that markets reflected that.

Indeedy. This article in the Korean Times today shows what happens when the Korean won gains strength against the dollar -

Soaring won squeezes companies (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/biz/2012/11/123_124251.html)
Quote from: The Korea Times Nov 8th 2012
The majority of exporters here have seen their bottom lines deteriorate as a result of the steep appreciation of the Korean won against the dollar and other major foreign currencies over the past few months.

- an effect that would be doubled should the dollar start to slide globally as well as the won strengthening of course.

Whether this is enough to have the sudden drop impact we've just seen on NCsoft's share prices is anybody's guess of course - their market is still mostly domestic, and their overseas products are digital rather than physical exports for the most part. Personally I'm going with what gangrel and Tim say about 'ripple effects' from small point sources disturbing the market.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The White Rager on November 08, 2012, 03:41:42 PM
 A simple 'NCSoft news' google gets nothing but 'they've closed CoH articles,' varying in tone from the merely reporting to the outright condemning. No Guild Wars II articles, just all about our fight. Way to go!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 08, 2012, 04:25:35 PM
As for the latest dive... when did the NCsoft financial report come out? Maybe that has something to do with it?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on November 08, 2012, 04:27:12 PM
"Sir? We have a group of heroes from Paragon City who would like to have a word with you about your plans to foreclose on their city."

"How many? It's not like they have the resources to stop us."

"That's the thing, sir. It's all of them."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Moonfyire101 on November 08, 2012, 05:04:16 PM
Wow! The stock just took such a dive! Thats great! keep up the good work everyone, it's working ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 08, 2012, 05:41:21 PM
Don't overreact. That's the sort of fluctuation that happens. Look at the view over five years for some perspective.

Now if they get down to 50,000 a share, back where they were in 2008, then you'll see some panic.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Celtic Fist on November 08, 2012, 09:47:16 PM
Short write up from one source on the reason for the big slide in the stock.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49736295

It mention the reason is a dim forecast earnings until "Blade and Soul" is released in the Chinese market next year.  Gives impression the stock value could be suppressed for a while.  Markets are fickle so to each your own opinion. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on November 10, 2012, 12:32:14 AM
Today they hit a new 52-week low that, from what I can tell from the charts, is the lowest their stock has been in about 2 years. 

Stay strong!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 10, 2012, 02:57:42 PM
Indeedm, though that one has been a fairly brief blip (December 2010-January 2011). Last time their stock has been around this value for a longer amount of time was in June 2010.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 10, 2012, 03:46:39 PM
June 2010... that was the Garriott ruling, wasn't it?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Artillerie on November 12, 2012, 02:25:42 PM
Still going down :)

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 12, 2012, 02:34:07 PM
You know, regardless of whether Obama's re-election is causing a world-wide stock market crash, our efforts can only help to make NCSoft's fall even faster. So keep it up.

I don't think this will ever happen, but isn't it entertaining to imagine plunging them down to cheap enough that we could buy their whole company? (Then again, I'm a guy who only buys lottery tickets when it's a 100 million-to-one ratio of payout to ticket price, and THEN considers it money spent on the entertainment value of imagining what I'd do with that much money. I know I'm spending money I won't see again; it's why I buy just one, and enjoy the fantasy.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Nafaustu on November 12, 2012, 04:41:41 PM
You know, regardless of whether Obama's re-election is causing a world-wide stock market crash, our efforts can only help to make NCSoft's fall even faster. So keep it up.

I don't think this will ever happen, but isn't it entertaining to imagine plunging them down to cheap enough that we could buy their whole company? (Then again, I'm a guy who only buys lottery tickets when it's a 100 million-to-one ratio of payout to ticket price, and THEN considers it money spent on the entertainment value of imagining what I'd do with that much money. I know I'm spending money I won't see again; it's why I buy just one, and enjoy the fantasy.)

My father always said "Everybody needs a longshot."   Doubly applied here. :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Hyperstrike on November 12, 2012, 05:41:18 PM
Ahhh yes of course. Stands to reason that Wall Street are in a panic that Obama's been re-elected. He's about the most anti-business chief executive this country has ever had.

Of course he is!  He's an Illinois political hack!  If they're not chasing businesses away, they aren't "doing their job".
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Hyperstrike on November 12, 2012, 06:11:21 PM
While lobbyists would kill it dead, I wish Congress here in the States at least would institute a law confiscating ALL proceeds from illegal activity.

VERY slippery slope that.

Blow a red light?  That's illegal!  We're taking your car.

Killed a burglar breaking into your house and have someone classify it as unjustified?  That's homicide.  That's illegal!  We're taking your house!

The laws get changed so that something your business is doing, that was perfectly legal before, is now considered "wrong"?  We're taking your business!

Yeah.  While part of me wishes the "war on crime" had more muscle, all those protections on personal liberty and property, that politicians seem so blithely intent on eroding, are there for a reason.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 12, 2012, 06:26:58 PM
VERY slippery slope that.

Blow a red light?  That's illegal!  We're taking your car.

Killed a burglar breaking into your house and have someone classify it as unjustified?  That's homicide.  That's illegal!  We're taking your house!

The laws get changed so that something your business is doing, that was perfectly legal before, is now considered "wrong"?  We're taking your business!

Yeah.  While part of me wishes the "war on crime" had more muscle, all those protections on personal liberty and property, that politicians seem so blithely intent on eroding, are there for a reason.

They did that exactly to Megaupload - and last I heard, they refused to return the seized assets and hardware, long after the seizure and other events leading to it were proven unlawful in and of themselves.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 12, 2012, 11:57:35 PM
Killed a burglar breaking into your house and have someone classify it as unjustified?  That's homicide.  That's illegal!  We're taking your house!

Pretty sure the penalty for homicide is a little more severe than that. I can't speak from personal experience, but I consider my source to be pretty reliable, so you can trust me on it.  ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Hydrith on November 13, 2012, 02:17:48 AM
Killed a burglar breaking into your house and have someone classify it as unjustified?  That's homicide.  That's illegal!  We're taking your house!

Depends on where you live.  Here in Alaska, I'm pretty sure you can kill a burglar who breaks into your house. :)

In the lower 48, though, I've heard stories of burglars breaking into houses, they fall down and hurt themselves, and get away with lawsuits against the owners.  People down there are nuts, it would never fly up here...but then again, we're barbarians up here.  We give away road kill to people who sign up for it :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JaguarX on November 13, 2012, 04:23:27 AM
Depends on where you live.  Here in Alaska, I'm pretty sure you can kill a burglar who breaks into your house. :)

In the lower 48, though, I've heard stories of burglars breaking into houses, they fall down and hurt themselves, and get away with lawsuits against the owners.  People down there are nuts, it would never fly up here...but then again, we're barbarians up here.  We give away road kill to people who sign up for it :D

not in texas, you break in someone house and they shoot you and you live, the first question authorities will ask the owner is why didnt you kill him? In fact they only have to be merely trespassing. In other states those No trespassing signs may be a joke. Here, it's serious buisness. It means they warned you, you ignored, so they can shoot you no questions asked. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on November 13, 2012, 04:40:40 AM
not in texas, you break in someone house and they shoot you and you live, the first question authorities will ask the owner is why didnt you kill him?
As long as you don't shoot him in the back, you're good to go.  If you shoot them in the back, there will be more questions, but you're probably still going to be OK.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 13, 2012, 04:45:00 AM
Looks like they finally levelled out (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) at around 170,500, currently sitting at 171,000.  They're still lower now than they have been in years.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JaguarX on November 13, 2012, 04:46:24 AM
As long as you don't shoot him in the back, you're good to go.  If you shoot them in the back, there will be more questions, but you're probably still going to be OK.

yep.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 13, 2012, 04:51:22 AM
not in texas, you break in someone house and they shoot you and you live, the first question authorities will ask the owner is why didnt you kill him? In fact they only have to be merely trespassing. In other states those No trespassing signs may be a joke. Here, it's serious buisness. It means they warned you, you ignored, so they can shoot you no questions asked.

If I break into a house in Texas, I've made a serious vocational and/or life choice error somewhere along the line.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Hyperstrike on November 13, 2012, 04:54:09 AM
not in texas, you break in someone house and they shoot you and you live, the first question authorities will ask the owner is why didnt you kill him? In fact they only have to be merely trespassing. In other states those No trespassing signs may be a joke. Here, it's serious buisness. It means they warned you, you ignored, so they can shoot you no questions asked.

This is why "If at first you don't succeed, headshot, headshot again!"
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 13, 2012, 06:37:29 AM
Texas: where "gun control" means "a steady hand."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Twisted Toon on November 13, 2012, 07:18:06 AM
Depends on where you live.  Here in Alaska, I'm pretty sure you can kill a burglar who breaks into your house. :)

In the lower 48, though, I've heard stories of burglars breaking into houses, they fall down and hurt themselves, and get away with lawsuits against the owners.  People down there are nuts, it would never fly up here...but then again, we're barbarians up here.  We give away road kill to people who sign up for it :D
In most states down here, you can shoot someone who breaks into your house, if you have a reasonable fear that they would cause you harm: Self Defense.

Other states, you'll get arrested if you shoot the ground outside of your house trying to stop a burglar. A couple of years ago, I recall reading an incident that went that way in...New Hampshire, I believe.

Also, I was told, by a police officer no less, that if you were to shoot a Jehovah's Witness on your property, drop the T.V. next to him. Then you can claim that he was robbing you. I'm still not entirely certain if he was joking...  ???
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 13, 2012, 01:27:48 PM
Texas: where "gun control" means "a steady hand."
I like that one! (I can't believe I hadn't heard it before, unless you just made it up?)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Artillerie on November 13, 2012, 02:21:06 PM
Looks like they finally levelled out (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) at around 170,500, currently sitting at 171,000.  They're still lower now than they have been in years.

Thank you for the update - we will have to see what happens now.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: General Idiot on November 13, 2012, 02:30:37 PM
Might be premature though. One day of not going down is not a reversal of a several month trend, especially when over that time there's been several points where it's gone up for a day or two before dropping again. Assuming I'm reading that graph right, anyway.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 13, 2012, 05:00:08 PM
Best guess seems to be that the US election results and talk of "fiscal cliffs" has caused a lot of investors to pull out (at least temporarily) from 'risk' stocks, especially in the far east. What constitutes 'risk' to such people is unknown to me because I'm an artist not a stockbroker ???

In addition to NCsoft's stock, you might also want to keep an eye on Nexon, seeing as it's becoming more and more apparent the two are effectively a partnership now. With that in mind, here's a snapshot of how Nexon is doing today :-

(https://i.imgur.com/7hMai.jpg)

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/3659:JP/chart

As you can see, even though it's a Korean-based company, Nexon is floated on the Japanese stockmarket. Why? *shrug* I have no idea - artist, remember ;)

Their shares seem to have pulled up a little today, moreso than NCsoft's which seem to have merely levelled out. Will either or both of them claw their way back up over the next few days? Have to wait to see what happens in the US markets for the answer to that one I think.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: V-Mink on November 13, 2012, 05:36:50 PM
I find that fascinating, of course, but the thing that leaps at me is the sharp drop in their stock in mid-August which seems to mirror the one NCSoft experienced.  Speaking redside, I like to think that NCsoft's boneheaded move in closing a modestly profitable game had some effect on that, but rationally, I have to wonder if there wasn't something that the world financial wizards knew or suspected at that time, and if the closing of CoH was meant to mitigate or take advantage of that.

I realize Nexxon and NCsoft are effectively partners, but did other game companies (specifically MMO companies, but also other companies in divergent industries) also experience that same dip at that time?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 13, 2012, 05:45:19 PM
And they're slipping down again (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS), losing a solid 1,500 won/share since yesterday.

So much for levelling out.  Now they're below 170,000.  Last time they were this low was around May 3-7 of 2010.  All of the gains they made for just shy of the last two and a half years are kaput.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ironwolf on November 13, 2012, 06:54:38 PM
[EDIT: Snipping political discussion ~Agge]
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 13, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
Let's keep US politics out of the discussion, Ironwolf.

NC's only down to 150,000 and still slowly dropping. But they're still way ahead from back in 2008.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 13, 2012, 11:15:07 PM
But they're still way ahead from back in 2008.
Can you imagine being the one to break the news to stockholders that you'd just lost/reversed the last 4 years of growth? :)

The thing with shares is that, until something changes, its an avalanche effect.  Share prices drop, so some shareholders want to sell before it drops further and may take years to recover, which makes the shares price drop further, and so the cycle rolls, until it reaches a level where someone sees it as an absolute bargain that won't likely slide lower and buys in.

Personally, I think the shares are some months from bottoming out, and if there's any more bad news about GW2 or Blade and Soul - which there will be if they don't fix the root of all the bad PR they've been collecting - the slide could become a real landslide pretty quickly, and last longer.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 14, 2012, 03:09:04 AM
I know this is barely related, but I was going through my bag of random pocket change from my travels during the 90s. Turns out I have 11400 KRW, among other various and sundry currencies. Kinda feel like just mailing the 10000 KRW bill to Mr. Kim. Sort of a, "How's the color of this money for ya?" :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 14, 2012, 03:40:58 AM
"The thing with shares is that, until something changes, its an avalanche effect."

I do hope you're right, Ammon.

"Can you imagine being the one to break the news to stockholders that you'd just lost/reversed the last 4 years of growth?"

Hmm... thoughts like that keep me warm at night. That and the kitten. Okay, mainly the kitten, but that's beside the point.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 14, 2012, 03:43:47 AM
That and the kitten. Okay, mainly the kitten, but that's beside the point.
Envying you so damned much right now.  I miss my late kitty.

For now, I will comfort myself with schadenfreude.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 14, 2012, 03:49:29 AM
Sorry to 'jack the thread.

Yeah, lost my Sealpoint Birman a couple months ago. Only eleven. We got our last cat to twenty!

Got a simple black kitten from the shelter. So loving and happy and bouncy and fun! Love love love him. Go get a kitten as soon as you can bear it.

Okay, back to the thread.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 14, 2012, 11:55:35 AM
No, let's keep talking about cats ;)

I lost an old dear feline friend just last week - ex-feral guy, no idea how old he was, but I know he was at least 12. And still hunting right up until he curled up purring and switched off his own lights - in fact just two days before, he'd brought in the mother of all rats. In his time he'd caught countless rats, rabbits, mice, pigeons...and also along the way a stoat, a weasel and even a mole. Never seen a hunter like him. He carried on being the Hunter Supreme right til the servers went down, so to speak - an example to us all :)

Now, back to stocks!

I find it interesting that while Nexon is managing a tiny clawback rally in share price, NCsoft is not. In fact, this current decline seems to be part of a longer trend that hasn't let up since the flush of GW2's launch wore off. The conspiracy theorist in me is beginning to wonder if there's more behind the NCsoft scenes than even the most skeptical of us has pondered...

I see that today NCsoft share prices are 37% less than they were the day they announced the closure of CoH - sure, I'm under no illusions here, there's no way CoH is responsible for all that loss (or even a decent sized chunk of it really) but nevertheless, on a chilly November morning, that is a warming sight, is it not? ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 14, 2012, 12:47:56 PM
No, let's keep talking about cats ;)

I lost an old dear feline friend just last week - ex-feral guy, no idea how old he was, but I know he was at least 12. And still hunting right up until he curled up purring and switched off his own lights - in fact just two days before, he'd brought in the mother of all rats. In his time he'd caught countless rats, rabbits, mice, pigeons...and also along the way a stoat, a weasel and even a mole. Never seen a hunter like him. He carried on being the Hunter Supreme right til the servers went down, so to speak - an example to us all :)
Talk about your one-cat war on nature.  It's like reading about an ancient kung-fu master who fights wolves, bears and tigers for practice, only it's a cat.  I mean, cripes, a stoat and a weasel?  Those things can kill a cat.  The mole's just pure sadism; I mean, poor things are defenseless once you dig them up or yank them out of their burrows.  Your kitty just didn't tolerate the existence of anything rodent or even vaguely rodent-like in his territory.

Sure your kitty didn't originally hail from the Rogue Isles?

In stock news, NC's still slipping away (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS), they're now officially below 160k. at 159.5k won at last close.  They hit a low during trading of 156k; that's kinda dire of a portent.  They could yet fall that far.

I don't think I need to say that all their gains from the last 2-3 years are pretty much kaput at this point.  I feel sorry for their investors.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 14, 2012, 12:56:57 PM
Cat awesomeness

Holy crap, it's Cat Norris!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 14, 2012, 02:00:49 PM
There was a study once wherein they got cat-owners to let them put little cameras on their cats. Turns out the little beasts are genuine monsters when it comes to hunting; the kill-counts are way, way higher on just about all of them than any of their owners ever suspected. I've read unrelated theories based on cat behavior that they may not even truly be domesticated; like tigers who eat their owners one day, cats are still wild animals who just have come to recognize a source of comfort and occasional companionship. With house cats, we're safe mainly because we're too big to kill.

That said, I know enough people whose cats love them dearly that it's probable that they are capable of affection without being fully domesticated, if that latter theory is even true.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Flashtoo on November 14, 2012, 04:20:49 PM
I have three rescue cats now, all indoor moggies, and between them, their known kill count is one (a large moth, swatted out of the air and eaten, by the biggest one). Wouldn't be surprised if the female caught a few creepy-crawlies as well, but the youngest is basically still a kitten and would probably just run away from anything big enough to notice. My first cat, however, was a not-quite-feral lady that we took in and she brought us plenty of little animals; I'm pretty sure she saw us as her children. When she was dying of mouth cancer she tried never to let us see her in pain, though sometimes we could hear her crying when she went off to be alone. I miss her terribly. Hell, I miss my current three terribly; they're in Massachusetts and I'm in Texas.


Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Rotten Luck on November 14, 2012, 04:36:29 PM
I have two Rescued cats... heck almost all my animals I had throughout life been rescued one way or another.  Just got a grey fur ball of a kitten!  ... still hasn't learned not to go after my toes when I'm asleep.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: V-Mink on November 14, 2012, 04:51:04 PM
No, let's keep talking about cats ;)

I lost an old dear feline friend just last week - ex-feral guy, no idea how old he was, but I know he was at least 12. And still hunting right up until he curled up purring and switched off his own lights - in fact just two days before, he'd brought in the mother of all rats. In his time he'd caught countless rats, rabbits, mice, pigeons...and also along the way a stoat, a weasel and even a mole. Never seen a hunter like him. He carried on being the Hunter Supreme right til the servers went down, so to speak - an example to us all :)
Whoa!  Neko-ro Mifune!  CLAWS OF JUSTICE DO NOT RETRACT!  :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 14, 2012, 04:51:11 PM
Cats think humans are bad hunters. If your cat leaves you birds on the front porch, dump a deer or something on the same spot, right in front of him. That'll wise him up on who the apex predator is.

I'm sorry I got this started. Back to stocks before we earn the mods' attentions. Slight uptick but way to early to call it a rally.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 14, 2012, 04:52:53 PM
Well, to tie it in with the meme thread, and to rub it in their faces...

Anyone skilled enough in Flash to make an animation of lemmings parading down the curve?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blackgrue on November 14, 2012, 06:55:13 PM
Random hopeful thought: If we got 65 billion dollers by the end of the month, we could buy a controlling interest in NCSoft *grin*
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The-Hunter-JLJ on November 14, 2012, 07:12:43 PM
I'll check the cushions of the couch when I get home tonight...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 14, 2012, 08:10:18 PM
There's something fitting about the current NCsoft stock slaughter and talk of killer cats really ;D

So I put the images together for the lulz - on the left is NCsoft's share price over the last year, culminating in November's Share Price Massacre, and on the right is my recently departed killer cat Boris (he was a feral Russian Blue, what else could I have called him? ;) ) in the process of dismantling a rabbit in the outbuilding he'd claimed as his dacha. There's a visual poetry of sorts there, is there not?

(https://i.imgur.com/SgDCq.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on November 14, 2012, 09:55:15 PM
On the cat topic:

I have 4:

We started with 1- Penny, my wife's magnificently defiant silver longhair that didn't appreciate me stepping into their lives. She was a queen and extremely possessive of her favorite underling, my wife, and didn't take kindly to this intruder showing up.  It was a contest of wills, and my mastery at scritches barely made up for the moments when I earned her angry glare that said "your shoes will suffer tonight while you sleep."

We thought Penny could use a companion, so at Christmas we got an all-black american shorthair kitten- Cinder, my little lump of coal.   She's daddy's little girl, lovingly crawling onto my arm whenever she wants scritchies, regardless of what I'm doing or what she has to claw into to get there.   Everyone else calls her "devilcat" because she's got this nasty tendency to establish dominance through fear, and establishing fear through creative bloodletting.   

Then 2 kittens-Francis and Suki- showed up on our doorstep- they're a bonded pair.  Suki's a runt that looks like a miniature maine-coon and Frankie's her gargantuan all-black bodyguard.  He's the gentlest guy, but fiercely protective of his sister, rescuing her from any fight, calming her when she has a seizure, and cuddling with her whenever possible.  She's the sweet, innocent-looking, evil mastermind that knows that she can get him to attack Cinder just by going up to the sleeping black lump of coal and squealing like she's been attacked.  He then lumbers into the room and launches his 18-lb mass into the air above Cinder before she even blinks the sleepy look off her face.

After Penny passed away, we waited a bit, not sure how to replace the silver queen.  A friend referred us to a posting for a kitten needing a home and we decided to adopt, sight unseen.  Turns out that she's remarkably similar to Penny... in appearance.  In demeanor they couldn't be more different  While Penny had a composed ladylike regal air, Keyta's makes use of Matrix-like gravity-defying hyperactivity.  She moves more like a grey squirrel than a cat.... a hypercaffeinated grey squirrel may be a better description... on acid.

That's our crew.

Now, back to the stockwatch...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 14, 2012, 10:00:07 PM
Now, back to the stockwatch...
"Next time, on Stockwatch:"

And now I'm envisioning a soap opera done Hetalia Axis Powers-style with personifications of the companies on a stock exchange whose plot is based on their rise and fall.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 14, 2012, 10:15:47 PM
What if...
Such a show actually exists in-universe in Plan Z?  8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 15, 2012, 12:37:02 AM
There are a lot of rumors that Taek-Jin Kim is trying to unload the other half of his stock in NCSoft.  And that Nexon is not a happy camper at this moment, when the stock they bought has lost 1/3 of its value.

Would anyone like a nice slice of schadenfreude with a balsamic vinegar glaze?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JWBullfrog on November 15, 2012, 12:55:45 AM
And just because the word has been invoked I give you, courtesy of the nice folks at Avenue Q...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQGQ5qBQTA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCQGQ5qBQTA)
 
caution: maybe use headphones. not for children and perhaps NSFW
 
 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on November 15, 2012, 03:13:46 AM
Well, to tie it in with the meme thread, and to rub it in their faces...

Anyone skilled enough in Flash to make an animation of lemmings parading down the curve?

Quite possibly. >.> <.<

Unfortunately the time is more lacking than the skill.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Frostyfrozen on November 15, 2012, 08:00:33 AM
Has anyone given any thought to inform the other community's of the possible coming storm? Or are we just going to let them find out and start to point fingers at us.
If you know or not but it seems the CoH community is the most versed in NCsoft history then the other NA games community's of theirs.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 15, 2012, 08:17:17 AM
Quite possibly. >.> <.<

Unfortunately the time is more lacking than the skill.

Isn't there a map editor for Lemmings that lets you import a bitmap?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: pewlagon on November 15, 2012, 08:24:40 AM
Inform the CoH forums? Sadl,y I wouldn't because at this point any positive hope thread, farewell message, etc. winds up in the hands of a certain group of angsters. My Youtube editor, and 8-year vet and poster on those forums, was in frightened off by that group to the point where she removed the CoH forums from her Faves list. And the Mods, what few are left, are pretty much letting them get away with whatever they want. I wouldn't post anything over there unless you have people you can PM to get the information.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 15, 2012, 08:42:30 AM
Inform the CoH forums? Sadl,y I wouldn't because at this point any positive hope thread, farewell message, etc. winds up in the hands of a certain group of angsters. My Youtube editor, and 8-year vet and poster on those forums, was in frightened off by that group to the point where she removed the CoH forums from her Faves list. And the Mods, what few are left, are pretty much letting them get away with whatever they want. I wouldn't post anything over there unless you have people you can PM to get the information.

Aye. There's a small group of characters, roughly 3 or 4, who have more or less set themselves up like a police force, upholding the law of an ego-maniac empire, where hope without an indeterminate amount of reason, is forbidden.

I'm very curious about how this came about too, because I've never seen anything like it before. Not on political forums, not from the biodrones (SWTOR fans) when SWG was closing, not from atheists/scientists in religious debates, or anything else. And they laugh at anyone saying it's possible that NCsoft may have sent in professional unicorns to spread ridicule even though it is now an acceptable PR tactic.  :roll:

The only way they MIGHT accept ANYTHING that comes from this camp, is if a redname comes right out on those forums and says, "This is what's happening."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 15, 2012, 01:40:56 PM
Hmmm... Methinks they doth protesteth too much? Eth?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 15, 2012, 03:09:44 PM
Curses.  There was a small rebound of NCsoft's stock price (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) today; it gained 3,000 won in value, approximately equal to $2.7 USD.

Still, they're below 165,000, and still have a lot to make up for if they want to get back to where they were this time last year.  In fact, their stock price would have to just about double.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on November 15, 2012, 07:06:12 PM
If it comes from a redname I will accept it.

However, you guys didn't exactly paint yourselves in a good light when you all jumped on Hitstreak in the past, even accusing NCsoft of feeding him lines to the public.

Sword swings both ways.

CM, what bugs me most is your selectivity.

Yes, we have extremists prone to drama, ridiculous conspiracies, and overinflated egos on these boards but most of us try not to feed them or encourage them without censorship just as I hope we don't censor you.  That doesn't mean we endorse them or agree with them, and they are BY FAR the minority here.  You seem to be ignoring every other moderate, constructive, positive poster or you read every one of those posts in some weird way as if you assume that htey're also the authors of the more quirky crap that pops up here.  Please be careful when you make broad statements about the community, as I believe that you could be a good moderating force if you didn't feed the trolls here.

We need fewer of these extremist drama queens here, not one on the other extreme of every argument trying to counterbalance them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 15, 2012, 07:25:29 PM
To perdition with the CoH boards, and let the unicorns devour it. I've been locked out of it for ages, and could care less.

What we need to watch for is unicorns, "professional" or otherwise, sent into this board.

And in that spirit, Chasear and CM, fixing blame is not productive. Take it to PMs and let's stay focused. This thread is for stock-watching and commentary. (And I'm sorry I derailed us with kittens. Didn't mean to. And Turjan made something cool out of it.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Copper Cockroach on November 15, 2012, 07:28:22 PM
If it comes from a redname I will accept it.

However, you guys didn't exactly paint yourselves in a good light when you all jumped on Hitstreak in the past, even accusing NCsoft of feeding him lines to the public.

Sword swings both ways.

Who are "you guys"?

I don't remember this jumping-on-Hit Streak thing... I guess I must've skipped the meeting. Sorry, I'll try not to make a habit of it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 15, 2012, 07:44:58 PM
Who are "you guys"?

I don't remember this jumping-on-Hit Streak thing... I guess I must've skipped the meeting. Sorry, I'll try not to make a habit of it.

I vaguely remember it, but I would hardly call it an attack on Hitstreak. From what I saw, Hitstreak was our most vocal dev-side supporter. The closest thing to an 'attack', was the suggestion that NCsoft was using Hitstreak as the messenger, in the hopes that all of our anger would be unleashed on PS instead of NCsoft.

Remember that there were no official announcements from NCsoft about CoH at all until October. And that was only a response to a massive player campaign. Even now, the response to the campaign is the closest thing we have had to an official shutdown announcement from NCsoft. Titan/SaveCoH players can't be the only ones who find that weird.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 15, 2012, 09:14:27 PM
I don't even remember it being that close to foil-hat conspiracy theory, but I'd have to dig pretty far back. My recollection is that we were speculating on the possibility of not only Jessie being in the unfortunate position of having to be the mouthpiece for NCSoftcore, but Andy quitting or being fired because he refused to do it.  That was all cleared up to majority satisfaction during the first Coffee Talk that followed.

Also, Jessie has pinkeye.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 16, 2012, 12:54:35 AM
There are a lot of rumors that Taek-Jin Kim is trying to unload the other half of his stock in NCSoft.

Interesting...I'm wondering now if my tinfoil hat theory of Kim wanting to bug out to manage the NCsoft pro-baseball team might actually have some legs to it after all... :o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 16, 2012, 12:59:08 AM
Interesting...I'm wondering now if my tinfoil hat theory of Kim wanting to bug out to manage the NCsoft pro-baseball team might actually have some legs to it after all... :o

If he manages the baseball team as well as he managed NCSoft Interactive....
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 16, 2012, 01:03:15 AM
I'm suddenly imagining the basketball league in this week's How I Met Your Mother.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 16, 2012, 01:04:08 AM
If he manages the baseball team as well as he managed NCSoft Interactive....

Well, as I understand it, Korean pro-ball teams do usually run at a loss, so...yeah, very probably ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Twisted Toon on November 16, 2012, 04:54:00 AM
Interesting...I'm wondering now if my tinfoil hat theory of Kim wanting to bug out to manage the NCsoft pro-baseball team might actually have some legs to it after all... :o

Maybe he secretly reads these boards and you gave him the idea... :o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on November 16, 2012, 07:17:32 AM
Also, Jessie has pinkeye.

I still giggle anytime anyone brings that up.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Artillerie on November 16, 2012, 01:56:42 PM
Just saw this put up on Facebook :

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 16, 2012, 04:03:55 PM
Not as bad a day for them as Nov 8th when it looks like quite a lot of shares got sold, but yes, their prices are still in freefall, with no sign of bottoming out.  Their seeming inability to do anything PR wise to rally any faith in the market value is only adding to the investors jumping off.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 16, 2012, 04:39:03 PM
Wow... look at that one year view! Ever since Sept 7th, around the time of the AP33 rally they've steadily lost ground, and November has been disastrous.

Still not back where they were in 2008, though. I need to break out my voodoo dolls.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 16, 2012, 06:21:45 PM
I can't shake the feeling there is something seriously wrong with that picture.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: V-Mink on November 16, 2012, 07:12:54 PM
IT's worth looking at the volume, however. November 8th, obviously, maps to a strong sudden downturn in their prices, but no other dip matches to a corresponding increase in volume; and the June 22nd spike in volume doesn't map to any spike or dip.

For a slightly different look at NCsoft's stock, look at the three- or five-year graph.  NCsoft is doing poorly compared to the past year; and over the past 104 weeks this is as low as they've been; but beyond that, they've been in far worse shape than they are now.  Also, two years ago, they were not too much better than they are now.  One could say that the 'gravy train' is over for them, but I'm not so sanguine; they've been in worse shape.

Another item of interest is how the graph takes peaks and valleys.  It seems to struggle to reach the peaks, but then topples into valleys easily/quickly.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Technerdoc on November 16, 2012, 09:28:54 PM
Just a little noob question: What exactly is this Stockwatch? When I'm searching the german news then I get the NC-Soft news like "There is an significant growth and they are making a lot of money because of Guild Wars and Blade & Soul", not a single word about this Stockwatch diving like a lemming down the cliff...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 16, 2012, 09:49:26 PM
... I get the NC-Soft news like "There is an significant growth and they are making a lot of money because of Guild Wars and Blade & Soul", not a single word about this Stockwatch diving like a lemming down the cliff...
Where the the blue heck are you getting your news?

We've been watching the Reuters stock graph (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) showing NCsoft's stock prices on the Korean stock exchange (it's a Korean company).  Stock prices are in Korean Won (KRW).

Bloomberg's stock quote (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/036570:KS) seems to concur.

Interestingly enough, 4-traders.com lists the estimated 2012 company value (http://www.4-traders.com/NCSOFT-CORP-6492298/financials/) of NCsoft... at -593 billion korean won.  It's the second entry in the right-hand column on the linked page.  Oddly enough though, their data seems a little weird - for instance they list NCsoft's last close price (http://www.4-traders.com/NCSOFT-CORP-6492298/consensus/) at 165,200 won (that was a couple days ago, they've fallen rather precipitously since then), and they have no quote available, so I'd kinda take their info with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on November 16, 2012, 10:17:33 PM
Just a little noob question: What exactly is this Stockwatch? When I'm searching the german news then I get the NC-Soft news like "There is an significant growth and they are making a lot of money because of Guild Wars and Blade & Soul", not a single word about this Stockwatch diving like a lemming down the cliff...
It's a compression of the words "stock" and "watch." This thread is a "stockwatch" because it is, quite literally, an exercise in watching NCSoft's stock.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Technerdoc on November 16, 2012, 11:49:57 PM
I think I get it now, thanks. The problem is, the people here are only intressted in Guild Wars 2 from NC-Soft, no one cares about the news from City of Heroes. I read only things like: "Ah it's this game, I played it one time, to bad they close it but... whatever..."

It's a shame...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Luna Eclypse on November 17, 2012, 01:20:26 AM
Looks like they're at a low that haven't seen since around March/April 2010.

I doubt they'll see much of an upswing when B&S and Wildstar launch, just that temporary surge of interest where people try the games and quit.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on November 17, 2012, 02:59:46 AM
To be fair, the decline of NCsoft shares have *not* hit the news... unless you are actually *looking* for information about NCsoft shares prices, and even then, it is still more than likely going to just chuck you to the Reuters/Yahoo/bloomberg Share page for them.

Actually, it is starting to make financial news (http://www.cnbc.com/id/49736295).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 17, 2012, 04:24:37 AM
I cannot for the life of me find a link, but I believe I saw a report that even Korean players are disappointed with Bits and Tits; the complaint is that you run through the sparse content very fast and then are left with yet another Korean Grind where you have literally nothing to do but engage in mass battles.  Which are virtually identical to every other Korean Grind's mass battles, except with more jiggly bits.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 17, 2012, 04:49:01 AM
I cannot for the life of me find a link, but I believe I saw a report that even Korean players are disappointed with Bits and Tits; the complaint is that you run through the sparse content very fast and then are left with yet another Korean Grind where you have literally nothing to do but engage in mass battles.  Which are virtually identical to every other Korean Grind's mass battles, except with more jiggly bits.

so their supposed "next big thing" is also flopping in the one place that they thought it would succeed regardless lol

ncsoft doesnt seem to know jack about their clientele
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ohms on November 17, 2012, 12:04:16 PM
I cannot for the life of me find a link, but I believe I saw a report that even Korean players are disappointed with Bits and Tits; the complaint is that you run through the sparse content very fast and then are left with yet another Korean Grind where you have literally nothing to do but engage in mass battles.  Which are virtually identical to every other Korean Grind's mass battles, except with more jiggly bits.

I remember reading a similar report, Blade & Soul's player retention wasn't great. I'll have a poke around a bit later to try and find it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Frostyfrozen on November 17, 2012, 04:05:25 PM
I think this is what you all speaking of . . I came across it and thought of you all. :)

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2012/08/133_117289.html

Umm intresting.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ohms on November 17, 2012, 04:21:58 PM
That was the one. rae posted it last month:

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=5654.0
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dior on November 18, 2012, 08:39:25 PM
I can't shake the feeling there is something seriously wrong with that picture.

Nothing seriously wrong with that chart!! Its the way we want it to be going isnt it?

If it were your health chart, they would be wheeling you into Intensive Care!

Im just getting ready to send NCSoft Board of Directors a "we wish you a merry and prosperous christmas" card.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 18, 2012, 10:39:04 PM
Nothing seriously wrong with that chart!! Its the way we want it to be going isnt it?

If it were your health chart, they would be wheeling you into Intensive Care!

Im just getting ready to send NCSoft Board of Directors a "we wish you a merry and prosperous christmas" card.

I'd rather send them an Ebenezer Scrooge card with Scrooge saying "You should die and decrease the surplus population."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on November 18, 2012, 11:32:22 PM
Im just getting ready to send NCSoft Board of Directors a "we wish you a merry and prosperous christmas" card.
I'd rather send them an Ebenezer Scrooge card with Scrooge saying "You should die and decrease the surplus population."

VV, I think the implication of dior's card is that selling the game would make us merry and them prosperous (or at least less poor).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 18, 2012, 11:52:21 PM
I know I don't want anyone to die. Yet.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: V-Mink on November 19, 2012, 12:11:41 AM
I'd rather send them an Ebenezer Scrooge card with Scrooge saying "You should die and decrease the surplus population."

I'd settle for them being visited by the Ghosts of MMO Gaming Past, Present, and Future...

Future: "Remember that crappy game company that shut down decent games, then all the companies did the same thing and shut down good games in favor of crrrrrrrap?  So we all told them to get stuffed, made our own games that were, you know, fun, and the publishers failed to make any more money and went out of business?  Yeah, good times.  What was the name of that company, anyway?"

Yeah, I know, pipe dream, but in the long run, it's better that they get hit with a clue-by-four.  Sometimes, the best thing is not to "make more money."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 19, 2012, 09:01:45 AM
VV, I think the implication of dior's card is that selling the game would make us merry and them prosperous (or at least less poor).
I was under the impression it was sarcastic. The only thing it was missing is "Good luck with that."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 19, 2012, 04:50:14 PM
Looks like NC's momentarily levelled out (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) again.  Has anyone been on the lookout for any information they've released to the public on their business plans?  I'm kinda wondering if this is just a bunch of speculators taking a chance on a random low-stock, or if there's something behind this sudden lack of abject free-fall.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on November 19, 2012, 04:53:12 PM
Haven't seen any news, but it's pretty much impossible to tell from only one data point. Could be normal fluctuations, could be people buying because it's lower, could be that it was overvalued to begin with and is now closer to the equilibrium point.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 19, 2012, 05:39:56 PM
Maybe just investors banking on the holiday spending. It's hard to think any company that markets to kids won't see at least some improvement in December.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 19, 2012, 05:44:11 PM
Maybe just investors banking on the holiday spending. It's hard to think any company that markets to kids won't see at least some improvement in December.
Be that as it may, right now I'm kinda hoping NC winds up with a lump of coal big enough to solve the fossil fuel crisis indefinitely.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Celtic Fist on November 19, 2012, 06:21:37 PM
Article from the Korea Times being discussed on the media thread.  Provides some details on the fall of the stock value for NCsoft.  I wrote a short email thanking the author for article.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2012/11/134_124954.html

Celtic Fist


Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Harermuir on November 21, 2012, 10:26:08 PM
Do we have any way to increase the fall of NCsoft stockwatch ? I mean by raising some fund to buy ad space in some korean or US economical newspaper, and use this for an open letter to stockholder, pointing, as customer, how we feel NCsoft decision is poor from an economical view, cutting down a project who could have been beneficial without any promotion, letting some valuable ressource sleeping (i think of the IP) when they can be sold or rented, choosing to target narrower audience with new project ? Sure, this is dirtier that we have done from now. But i think we should bring the bad publicity where it will really matter.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 22, 2012, 12:26:56 AM
Yeah...I think that might step on some legal toes...slander/libel laws and such. You'd be treading on very thin ice, from my non-lawyer point of view.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 22, 2012, 02:18:39 AM
Blueside, I think the best way to make them keep tanking is another Call to Action. On that note, keep your eyes peeled - the secret project is just crossing the Is and dotting the Ts on stage one. Stage two, well, we'll be needing your help, so keep watching the forum.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on November 22, 2012, 07:44:33 AM
Blueside, I think the best way to make them keep tanking is another Call to Action. On that note, keep your eyes peeled - the secret project is just crossing the Is and dotting the Ts on stage one. Stage two, well, we'll be needing your help, so keep watching the forum.
You know y'all are killing me with suspense, yes?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 22, 2012, 08:09:42 AM
You know y'all are killing me with suspense, yes?
It literally is the final polish on the project that's underway, so it won't be long until we need everyone's help with the crazy long-shot. :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: saipaman on November 22, 2012, 09:09:35 AM
Are we going to turn the tables on them by buying NCSoft and then firing everyone?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Jetfire99 on November 22, 2012, 09:58:53 AM
this is the cloest we may get to Arachnos and Longbow getting boots on the ground over there. Nice find on the link.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 22, 2012, 10:16:50 AM
Are we going to turn the tables on them by buying NCSoft and then firing everyone?
You'd probably only need about $1 billion to own enough of a majority of the stock to force something like that, thanks to the drop in prices.  There must be a couple of hundred of us, really actively campaigning, so we probably only need to put in about $5 million each... ;)

But then, suddenly buying all that stock would raise the stock prices again, and guess who you'd have given the billion to to buy their shares?  Yup, we'd be giving money to the people who did this to buy their shares.  One heck of a golden parachute for those we fired! :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DamianoV on November 22, 2012, 12:36:56 PM
I was reading around on MMORPG.com this morning... seems there's a bit of a kerfluffle with GW2 right now, too?  First expansion looks to be upsetting some of the player base?  Nexon looks to be getting a fair share of blame over there for the change in philosophy, but NCSoft is also in less-than-good-odor, from what I can tell.  Just thought I should mention it, given the thread topic.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on November 22, 2012, 03:31:59 PM
It literally is the final polish on the project that's underway, so it won't be long until we need everyone's help with the crazy long-shot. :)

Nail, furniture, or shoe?  ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on November 22, 2012, 03:36:18 PM
Just thought I should mention it, given the thread topic.

How dare you de-derail a thread!  >:(
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on November 22, 2012, 03:49:40 PM
Nail, furniture, or shoe?  ;)

Sausage! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielbasa)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on November 22, 2012, 03:58:25 PM
Sausage! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielbasa)

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. <.<
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 22, 2012, 04:15:00 PM
Sausage! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielbasa)
Words to live by: Never polish another man's sausage.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 22, 2012, 04:17:30 PM
But should you ever sausage another man's Polish?

No I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, leave me alone.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 22, 2012, 04:39:15 PM
Brief rally on the 20th, lost it all on the 21st, currently stagnating at 160ish, as low as it's been since April 2010. Trading is stagnant too. Yeah, not a stock I'd rush to invest in. But I still wanna see it go down to 50, where it was back in 2008.

"I was reading around on MMORPG.com this morning... seems there's a bit of a kerfluffle with GW2 right now, too?"

Details! Links! You mean "The Lost Shores" article?
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/6898
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 22, 2012, 08:12:08 PM
But should you ever sausage another man's Polish?
Never sausage a Polish man?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Beodren on November 22, 2012, 09:23:47 PM
As a Pole (Yup, a real one), i do not approve of sausaging polish man, but I do approve good polish sausage.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: epawtows on November 23, 2012, 03:51:19 AM
As a Pole (Yup, a real one), i do not approve of sausaging polish man, but I do approve good polish sausage.

And don't try it with anyone from the neighboring country.  Or you could have a sour Kraut.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Rotten Luck on November 23, 2012, 04:01:47 AM
And don't try it with anyone from the neighboring country.  Or you could have a sour Kraut.

Now now that's taking a Joke to it's Worst.... Curses now I want some.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on November 23, 2012, 05:54:59 AM
i love this thread, combination of both informational posts and hilarious derailment posts lol
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Frostyfrozen on November 23, 2012, 08:44:09 AM
Reading the player reviews is harsh on that GW2 event. A new game and the first try at a non Halloween event and people rack the Dev's over the coals.
Makes me think many of them would push my Granny of a sidewalk for walking slow.
( Feel better now thankyou :) )
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 23, 2012, 11:53:44 AM
I see green numbers on NC's price change (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS).  I hate seeing green numbers on NC's price change.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: pogoman on November 23, 2012, 05:33:34 PM
Blueside, I think the best way to make them keep tanking is another Call to Action. On that note, keep your eyes peeled - the secret project is just crossing the Is and dotting the Ts on stage one. Stage two, well, we'll be needing your help, so keep watching the forum.

Can't wait for stage 2! Keep us updated, please!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: LuchRi on November 23, 2012, 05:55:39 PM
I'll be keeping my eyes open for Step 2... not sure if I can help, but if so I will!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 24, 2012, 01:34:14 AM
Stage one has been launched. Stage two is scheduled for Monday, when everyone's had a chance to recover from the traditional tryptophan poisoning. Keep your eyes on the forums and the news.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 24, 2012, 01:56:24 AM
I think that the GW2 Unrest is explained by this article, which is FAR more serious a charge than some disappointment over an in-game event.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs.cfm/blogId/1209/entry/24237/utm_campaign/MMORPG%20Daily%20Digest%20Email/utm_source/MMORPG/utm_medium (http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs.cfm/blogId/1209/entry/24237/utm_campaign/MMORPG%20Daily%20Digest%20Email/utm_source/MMORPG/utm_medium)

This also may be the smoking gun that explains WHO canceled CoH and WHY.

The who:  Nexon.

The why: because OUR devs could not, or would not, monetize the Ascendant end-game, turning CoH into the Korean Grind Microtransaction Hell so beloved of Nexon.

Poor Arenanet.  And this does not bode well for Carbine and Wildstar.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on November 24, 2012, 06:08:43 AM
Jesus...

I'm beginning to wonder if we've had the wrong target all this time.

And if so, that's just Machiavellian genius on Nexon's part. They get NCSoft to take all the blame and anger and hatred and even have their stock tank while they get to sit back and look innocent until NCsoft falls far enough in stock price to acquire at firesale prices.

Then they swoop in and acquire the IP and rights to NCSoft's library and maybe even resurrect City of Heroes and they look like saviors, until they start monetizing the fuck out of everything like they're starting to in Guild Wars 2.

I'd rather City of Heroes STAY dead rather than poison it's memory by resurrecting it as a blood-sucking vampire version of it's former self.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 24, 2012, 06:17:36 AM
NCsoft is hardly blameless in this - remember that they didn't really didn't give two lumpy, corn-decorated.... candy bars about it while it was still going.

Judging by their past history, the most likely scenario I can envision is NCsoft hearing the offer/ultimatum/what-have you and basically going, "yeah, sure, screw'em".
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on November 24, 2012, 06:36:20 AM
Stage one has been launched. Stage two is scheduled for Monday, when everyone's had a chance to recover from the traditional tryptophan poisoning. Keep your eyes on the forums and the news.

Can vegetarians get in on it early?

Please?

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ukaserex on November 24, 2012, 06:36:32 AM
I have little doubts that Nexon was the catalyst behind this - and it is possible that getting the NCSoft stock price to tank is part of their plan - however, it does sound like the stuff of movies.

I look forward to the month of December to see, once the game is dead, what new information comes to surface.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on November 24, 2012, 06:58:09 AM
I have little doubts that Nexon was the catalyst behind this - and it is possible that getting the NCSoft stock price to tank is part of their plan - however, it does sound like the stuff of movies.

Could've sworn someone on this forum said that Nexon is angry about how much NCsoft's stock has fallen since they acquired a sizeable portion of it.  Can't remember where exactly, and not sure what the source was.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 24, 2012, 07:51:02 AM
The why: because OUR devs could not, or would not, monetize the Ascendant end-game, turning CoH into the Korean Grind Microtransaction Hell so beloved of Nexon.
To be fair, the entire end-game of CoH was locked away not only behind pay-to-win, but full subscription.  You had to both subscribe and grind to get all those incarnate powers slotted up.  Unlike microtransactions, where once you bought it you have it til the game closes, the Incarnate ascension stuff would be unuseable the moment you stopped subscribing, even if you'd been a subscriber from the very start.  The ultimate in rented power.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 24, 2012, 08:52:39 AM
To be fair, the entire end-game of CoH was locked away not only behind pay-to-win, but full subscription.  You had to both subscribe and grind to get all those incarnate powers slotted up.  Unlike microtransactions, where once you bought it you have it til the game closes, the Incarnate ascension stuff would be unuseable the moment you stopped subscribing, even if you'd been a subscriber from the very start.  The ultimate in rented power.
]

True-ish.  But if I understand the poster correctly, the way that Nexon works is that you either faceplant a lot or you pay from the get-go.  Casual gaming becomes casualty gaming. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 24, 2012, 09:23:49 AM
True-ish.  But if I understand the poster correctly, the way that Nexon works is that you either faceplant a lot or you pay from the get-go.  Casual gaming becomes casualty gaming.
Having played a lot of Nexon games, this is basically how it goes.  Most Nexon games assume a certain minimum of cash expenditures as part of a player's levelling strategy.  If you don't then you're underpowered, and frequently you'll hit a point where diminishing returns on loot-per-kill-per-death can't fund the cost of your constant deaths, especially if you attempt to solo.

This is a common scheme in most pay-to-win games, particularly of Korean, Chinese, and Japanese origin.  Rappelz, Luna Online, Fly For Fun, Mabinogi, Ghost X, Dungeon Fighter Online, Trickster Online, Monato Esprit, and Maplestory (admittedly to a lesser extent in Maple's case) for instance, are all games I've played that have done this.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 24, 2012, 04:56:58 PM
Having played a lot of Nexon games, this is basically how it goes.  Most Nexon games assume a certain minimum of cash expenditures as part of a player's levelling strategy.  If you don't then you're underpowered, and frequently you'll hit a point where diminishing returns on loot-per-kill-per-death can't fund the cost of your constant deaths, especially if you attempt to solo.

I've not played any Nexon stuff myself, and I had been wondering exactly what their style was - that explains it perfectly for me, ta Kaiser.

So basically they're pushers who are foisting drugs cut with bulking agent on you, and after a while the hit you get off them isn't enough to make scoring the free stuff worthwhile, so you have to fork over the dosh if you want a real high. That's...unsettling, to say the least. :o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 24, 2012, 06:23:04 PM
So basically they're pushers who are foisting drugs cut with bulking agent on you, and after a while the hit you get off them isn't enough to make scoring the free stuff worthwhile, so you have to fork over the dosh if you want a real high. That's...unsettling, to say the least. :o
Kinda, same idea but here's how it actually works.

In a typical Nexon (or hell, any Korean-developed grindgame), it's expected that you'll spend a certain amount of cash on things that boost your levelling speed or make levelling easier.  Stuff like CoH's amplifiers and XP boosters or windfalls.

If you do not buy these things, eventually you'll run up against stronger and stronger enemies, until you reach enemies that take an entire HP bar or most of your MP bar to kill.  You have to rest after each foe, and you've got a good chance of dying in a one-on-one conflict.  Soon after this point, you face enemies of a similar caliber in groups and thus you hit a brick wall.

These enemies are designed with the boosters in mind, so that a player with the boosters will find them a reasonable and rewarding challenge, while those without will suffer.  This is compounded by looot diminishing returns.  If you find enemies of your level too hard for you, you can't go back and fight earlier enemies because they give reduced rewards, until they eventually stop giving rewards at all.  You have no option to counter your lack of power via farming.

Eventually, you hit a point where you are unable to continue without other people carrying you, or purchasing cash shop items to deal with it yourself.  Considering what the communities are typically like on games like this, I can almost understand those who decide to pay up to avoid dealing with them.

Let me use Dungeon Fighter Online as an example.  As you level, and get better gear, the costs of repairing that gear starts to grow exponentially.  There will come a point at which, if you are not fighting enemies well above your level, the costs of repair will exceed the money you make from a dungeon run.  And up until recently, they had a system where you can only do a certain number of dungeon runs per day.  As a result, cash shop items that buff your stats, or increase the payout at the end of each run, or make holding a high dungeon rank easier (which in turn increases the payout at the end), are very lucrative.

Further, certain classes (the Berserker comes to mind), are designed with cash-shop items in mind.  In the Berserker's case, their most powerful skill (Frenzy), has a recoil effect - it saps your health to use it, and you gain health with each kill.  The higher its level, the less health it drains and the more you get back per kill.  You need to max it out to make it useful, otherwise it drains you far too quickly for your killing to keep up.  The only items that can artificially improve your Frenzy skill are only available through the cash shop, or from players who've purchased them through the cash shop.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 24, 2012, 06:33:24 PM
For those of you who are interested, there're several articles on Cracked.com about the shady ways these games addict customers and milk them of their money.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-borderlands-2-remorseless-addiction-machine/

http://www.cracked.com/article_18709_6-devious-ways-farmville-gets-people-hooked.html

If I may, for the health of the gaming community we really need a name/label for exploitative, pay-to-succeed games like those described above. "Grindfest" implies doing not-fun things to succeed, but games that only allow you to succeed based upon your monetary investment are a new low and demands a new name for us to slap on them as a warning to others.

Moving on, over thanksgiving I finally had the chance to speak face-to-face with a good friend who works in computer games and lent me his insights into NCSoft. I'm confident that he will not mind my sharing, provided I don't divulge the source. Y'all will just need to take my word on it, and I'm sorry what I have to say is discouraging.

He worked for a US-based game company that somehow affiliated with NCSoft. They had expected support in the way of game engines, only to be told, "nope, you need to come up with all that on your own." They got no support from Korea, zero, while the Koreans expected their cut of whatever was generated. Apparently, their reluctance to share anything doomed the project. (He now works in San Francisco. having developed a successful MMO whose name y'all would know. On a personal note, he's also the friend who showed me CoH in the first place.)

His take on the CoH situation is similarly discouraging. Apparently the Garriott fiasco has sparked xenophobia, and NCSoft "just wants the relationship with the west to end." They want to do business now only with fellow Asians. So the arbitrary CoH shutdown and the treatment of Paragon employees is a logical consequence of a corporate temper tantrum. We are, all of us, victims of the messy Garriott-NCSoft feud.

As to the IP, he considers it in character for Kim and company to shove CoH into an archive forever. I think they might even erase the code out of spite. The estimated worth of the game is trivial to them. They believe (rightly) that MMO players have limited time and money to invest, and tend to invest in one game at a time. Therefore, why sell CoH to a competitor who will only draw away customers from their own games? (The fact that we don't give a dead donkey's kidney for their freaky Korean underage hooker martial arts fapfest notwithstanding. NCSoft is not known for understanding the audience, except how to addict and exploit them, and doesn't even want to understand the western audience.)

As to Kim himself, my source says NCSoft's current stock slump stems not mainly from our efforts, but from the company CEO abruptly selling all his NC stock to Nexon. This is interpreted as him not having confidence in the company. It badly screws over his employees who now find themselves holding a depressed stock. I believe this speaks volumes about the man.

All our protests and actions, in sum, have little effect except to make them madder, as they literally no longer want our business. Due to language and cultural insulation, we have little power to affect their bottom line in Asia.

So... the advice we arrived at is to proceed with Plan Z. If we want a CoH-like experience, it would be best to approach American game companies and ask for a new superhero MMO, or build and own it ourselves if possible. Forget about dealing with NCSoft in any way (as they are sociopathically exploitative and callous.) Keep in mind that superhero MMOs enjoyed marginal success at best compared to every businessman's secret, impossible dream of rivalling Warcraft.

In any case, the discussion I had with him indicates that lights-out on the first really is the end of Paragon City, barring a pirated copy of the code on a pirate server. Please feel free to fact-check, as I only have hear-say to report. And sorry to be the bearer of such dreadful news.

I'll conclude by once again cursing Jack Emmert for selling his lovely creation to such wretchedly unfit caretakers.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: WildFire15 on November 24, 2012, 08:21:08 PM
At the moment, I'm waiting to hear from Posi or Brian Clayton over whether the game is defiantly not going to be sold or not. Given their current position, not selling would be daft when there's still interest.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 24, 2012, 10:12:36 PM
His take on the CoH situation is similarly discouraging. Apparently the Garriott fiasco has sparked xenophobia, and NCSoft "just wants the relationship with the west to end." They want to do business now only with fellow Asians. So the arbitrary CoH shutdown and the treatment of Paragon employees is a logical consequence of a corporate temper tantrum. We are, all of us, victims of the messy Garriott-NCSoft feud.

wth? You could almost have copied that paragraph verbatim from a diatribe I vented on this forum about a dozen pages back, but I was later able to find news copy claiming that executives at ArenaNet felt they had a wonderful relationship with Kim and NCsoft, contradicting the xenophobia hypothesis. On the other hand, given the direction that ArenaNet itself has been heading recently, it is entirely possible that the glowing comments I uncovered simply predate a more general "falling out" between NCsoft and the Western market. After all, it must have become obvious to NCsoft that they were going to lose their Garriott appeal long before the verdict was handed down in early October. The loss of that appeal shares a strangely coincidental timing with their closure of CoX and Kim's subsequent sale of a sizable portion of his personal stock in the company.

Quote
As to the IP, he considers it in character for Kim and company to shove CoH into an archive forever. I think they might even erase the code out of spite.

If Korean equity markets operate in a manner even remotely similar to ours, then executive management at NCsoft would have to possess a death wish to irrecoverably mark an asset to zero value without recourse to market. In this country, they would be subject to a shareholder lawsuit, and one for which the responsible individuals might be held personally liable. Executives of public corporations have a fiscal duty to protect the interests of their shareholders. For management to refuse a buyout offer they feel to be insufficient is one thing; indeed, even if they make decisions that ultimately harm their investors, it may still not constitute tort if their actions were performed in good faith. But for them to simply destroy value out of spite or gross negligence would be quite another matter.

Yet, in the end, I agree that nothing done by this community is likely to have the slightest influence on NCsoft whatsoever. We are simply too small. They probably correctly assume that a majority of online gamers possess rather Machiavellian personalities---young, self-interested and fairly ruthless. There will not be an exodus from their other games over the closure of CoX. Most players of these other games could give a rat's exhaust pipe about the fate of any game they aren't personally invested in, even if it presages an incident that may affect their own pet universe in the future. Do you see GW2 players flocking to our cause in droves? No. What about Aion players? No.

Why should NCsoft care if 3 percent of their (former) customers hate them? Why should they care when these (former) customers squawk if no one else is listening? If, by now, we had mobilized half of their total audience to support our cause (say, by sympathetically logging out for a month), I assure you that NCsoft would be doing everything humanly possible to restore CoX to permanent service. That hasn't happened. It won't happen. They know it. That's why they don't care: there's always a fresh supply of disinterested chumps coming down the pike to keep the use-and-discard business model going. Once any particular batch of marks get screwed and boycott, the next chumps will already be lining up. It may not be flattering, but provided you steer clear of religious or political issues, it is largely accurate.

Yet the days of that abusive model are numbered. The stranglehold that large publishers have held on the gaming market is evaporating before our eyes. Established game production personalities are becoming cognizant of the potential to raise millions of dollars via social funding systems, like Kickstarter; and the plethora of low-cost development tools that are becoming available, coupled with direct-to-consumer digital distribution systems, threaten to marginalize publishers even further. Why spend $60 on some big-name box that, as often as not, turns out to be generic crap when you can roll the dice on 4-6 smaller Kickstarter projects instead? Or even just wait six months to let the wheat separate from the chaff? Why spend $60 on some dumbed-down, bubble-headed eye candy game when you can pick up six or more classic titles for the same fee? The games on offer at places like gog.com may not sport quite the pulchritude of their dermatologically-perfect competitors, but they often exhibit more substance in five minutes of gameplay than their newer kin can claim in a start-to-finish play-through.

Game production is following a trend started by laser printers, digital audio recorders, CMOS video cameras and Internet blogging software: democratization via commoditization. I have watched the price of gigabit colocation drop from tens-of-thousands-of-dollars down to about $1200/mo. Hell, in Missouri the cost of a gigabit connect to your home is less than $100 from Google fiber. Coupled with continuing trends in CPU core density and better parallelizing compilers, the days of the $100 million+ MMO run by "me-too" companies chasing Blizzard's tail may be numbered. A few years ago, I would have called Project-Z an exercise in denial; today, I consider it more a potential hallmark of the future.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 24, 2012, 10:41:52 PM
"You could almost have copied that paragraph verbatim from a diatribe I vented on this forum about a dozen pages back..."

Then please consider it confirmation from someone who has actually seen NCSoft's way of doing business up close.

"I was later able to find news copy claiming that executives at ArenaNet felt they had a wonderful relationship with Kim and NCsoft."

Yeah, I'm sure Paragon Studios had a "wonderful relationship" with NCSoft right up until....

"If Korean equity markets operate in a manner even remotely similar to ours, then executive management at NCsoft would have to possess a death wish to irrecoverably mark an asset to zero value without recourse to market."

"...not selling would be daft when there's still interest."

I really hope you're both right, obviously. I am simply relaying the assessment of my good friend in the business. He feels it's more probable NCSoft wants CoH to die. Consider the bad PR the CoH community represents to them.

"...the days of that abusive model are numbered."

Ultimately, the days of any abusive business model are numbered.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 25, 2012, 03:24:22 AM

As to the IP, he considers it in character for Kim and company to shove CoH into an archive forever. I think they might even erase the code out of spite.

In any case, the discussion I had with him indicates that lights-out on the first really is the end of Paragon City, barring a pirated copy of the code on a pirate server.


Two things I am not worried about, Collette.  Because it is not just Kim and NCSoft that are involved.  At this point, it's clear that Nexon is pulling some strings too, and Nexon is Japanese, not Korean.  They have no reason to support Kim's xenophobia, and they are not (according to MY source) at all happy about the nosedive the stock they bought has taken.

First, they cannot erase the code, short of tracking down everyone that has a copy of CoH on his or her machine.  MOST of the code resides on our individual computers.  That is why CoH can run on crap connections that won't run other games; what the server code does is talk to the Mapservers to tell our machines where on the map our characters are relative to everyone else's character and all the NPCs in the zone--plus some of the NPC dialogue (some was moved there to avoid leaks in the "Who Will Die" arcs.  We have the game code resident on our own machines, and the maps.  This is how you get the demorecords to play back without a connection to the server.  What you do not see in the demorecord is what the mapservers take care of.  Could they erase the mapserver code?  Yes, but some people have copies of that, too, for perfectly legal reverse engineering purposes.  Plus, I have ZERO doubt that some of the devs have backup copies on their own machines at home.  It might be a pain in the butt to put the pieces back together again, but it can be done.  Could you erase the NPC dialogue?  Sure, but what would be the point--assuming anyone at NCSoft knows where to find it?  The very fact that NCSoft was so obdurate about being of any help means that they essentially know nothing about how the game runs or what lives where.

Could they erase the customer account database?  Maybe.  But that's a legal gray area.  Plus, there are CoH customers that subscribe to other NCSoft games.  You erase their data and you lose them for good.  This means they would have to go through the NCSoft Customer Database and identify only those who were CoH and only CoH subscribers and erase their accounts individually.  Not too hard to do for a handful of Facebook pests...a lot more difficult for people you are trying to keep.  And the stockholders would be furious, because that's spitting in the face of customers who might decide to subscribe to Bits and Tits, GW or GW2.

Could they lock up the IP?  Maybe....but that is where they get into something no CEO ever wants to face--the wrath of the stockholders.  If a legitimate buyer with the right price came along, and they can no longer throw up a smoke-screen of "legal liabilities" because the game has been shut down and is effectively dead, if they did NOT sell, the stockholders (with Nexon leading the charge) are going to throw a revolt and put someone in charge who WILL sell.

That might just happen anyway, with Nexon holding a fire sale on all the IPs that NCSoft has been squatting on, should anyone show any interest in them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 25, 2012, 04:08:20 AM
That might just happen anyway, with Nexon holding a fire sale on all the IPs that NCSoft has been squatting on, should anyone show any interest in them.

I, too, am secretly hoping that NCsoft goes belly up just so the IP they're sitting on comes oozing out of their carcass. I'm not sure I'm quite as optimistic about that prospect seeing reality as you may be, but one can always hope.  :P
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 25, 2012, 04:11:46 AM
Yeah, as amusing as the prospect is, with three quarters of their income coming from Korea, bombing everywhere else would just be a setback as long as they can keep pumping out grinders.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 25, 2012, 04:35:57 AM
Only so much productivity can overcome a lack of consumer confidence. I'd be interested in ownership demographics based on geography (percentage of owned stocks by country).  I suspect that the majority of their stocks are not held by Westerners.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on November 25, 2012, 05:05:24 AM
I'm still seeing more green in their price change (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS).  I'm not happy about this.

Of course, they're still floundering pretty hard and can't seem to stay above 165k won, but I'd love for them to dip below 150k, just to see what panic it induces.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 25, 2012, 03:38:30 PM
At this point, it's clear that Nexon is pulling some strings too, and Nexon is Japanese, not Korean.  They have no reason to support Kim's xenophobia, and they are not (according to MY source) at all happy about the nosedive the stock they bought has taken.

Actually, technically Nexon IS a Korean company (the company was set up in Korea in 1994), but its stock is floated on the Japanese stock market instead of in Korea. It gets muddy though because I believe their global HQ is in Japan...and both the new CEO of Nexon US and his predecessor are Korean, and they seem to have a greater degree of autonomy from Nexon HQ than NCsoft West ever had from NCsoft KR.

What does that all mean to us?
*shrug*
I have no idea - I've given up trying to work out what the NC-Nexonsoft bosses are up to. In my book, they're both barking mad and completely out of touch with the games market of the future.

I too have heard that Nexon is none too happy about the share crisis of their new best buddy and corporate bedmate NCsoft. From what I can tell, the shareholders aren't happy about TJ Kim's silence as to why he undersold 2/3 of his shares to Nexon. They were happy initally because it looked like a hand in hand merger of corporate giants, each promising to lend its own strength for the good of both...but now that shine has worn off and Kim is still being as silent to his shareholders as he is to us about the reasons for closing CoH, confidence has ebbed away along with the share price.

What puzzles me is Nexon being as unhappy as they are. TJ Kim has been their biggest rival in Korea for many years, so if anyone's going to have a shot at knowing what makes him tick, it's them. So if his behaviour since the share sale is confusing THEM then what chance have WE got of knowing what the hell is going on? ???

My bet is still on TJ Kim wanting to gradually cash himself out of NCsoft and still keep as many memories in his dragon's hoard as he can - which for us means he won't sell the CoH IP...but nor will he let Nexon have it either. And even if it becomes worthless to hang on to, he'll keep it anyway because that's simply what he does.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on November 25, 2012, 03:51:25 PM
Naturally I hope V.V. is right and the IP gets sold quickly. And yes, the re-emergence of CoH from the death of NCSoft would certainly satisfy me. But like Turjan, I have a bad feeling about the nature of Kim himself. And I remember some lovely videogame properties that have gone by the wayside when their company collapsed.

Anyway, reported my source's feelings. Beyond that, I'm as much in the dark as anyone, and eager to hear Monday's announcement.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on November 25, 2012, 05:32:39 PM
Actually, Kim is very much a minority shareholder at this point, and the IP for all of the games in his "dragon's horde" is owned by NCsoft's shareholders, not by Kim. Whatever that nut might have wanted to do with NCsoft and CoX will soon become quite irrelevant if shareholders lose confidence in his leadership and replace him.

Not to say that his replacement is guaranteed to be any better, of course....
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on November 25, 2012, 05:39:59 PM
I'm still seeing more green in their price change (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS).  I'm not happy about this.

Of course, they're still floundering pretty hard and can't seem to stay above 165k won, but I'd love for them to dip below 150k, just to see what panic it induces.

I think the Christmas season cancels all bets against NCsoft. Or pretty much ANY toy/entertainment company for that matter.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on November 26, 2012, 02:34:37 AM
Actually, Kim is very much a minority shareholder at this point
Yes, he sold out 15% to Nexon, retaining around 10% then of his previous 25% share.  The fact that he sold three-fifths of his entire holdings is what has shaken the value so hard.  A CEO selling his shares short is always a worry.  Doing it before a major launch that is supposed to raise the value, even more worry.  Selling the majority of his shares is just ... suicidal, on top of selling them short, right before the big new launches.

One of the more interesting rumours I heard recently is that yes, the whole Garriott thing is very much part of these seemingly crazy decisions, but not as others are supposing.  What I heard is that NCsoft don't feel very confident in their handling of the US, and feel that the damage of the Garriott case has only weakened their position in the West, and so the deal with Nexon is primarily to use Nexon's strengths as an international distributor and monetizer, while NCsoft focus on their strength of developing original games.

No idea where the CoH saga falls into all this, but it is possible that CoH having been originally developed by Cryptic made it no longer fit into their new strategy, while selling it was something they were not sure about (did the license include all rights to resell as they wished?).

Certainly, the only major gains that can be seen for NCsoft in this deal with Nexon is gaining access to a company far better at International business and marketing.  What would possibly confirm this is looking to see if the CEO of NCsoft reinvested much of his money from selling NCsoft shares into buying Nexon shares.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: LuchRi on November 26, 2012, 03:36:52 AM
The question I have is, would that kind of trade at a time like this constitute insider trading? If so Kim could be looking at a MASSIVE legal ogre hammer coming his way unless he was very sneaky or very cleaver about it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 26, 2012, 03:43:48 AM
(<snicker> "Cleaver!")

I don't know what the laws are in SK or Japan, but it's usually difficult to prove insider trading. If the stocks continue to tumble, the repercussions may be bad enough without jail time. Oh, but a body can dream, though, right?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: LuchRi on November 26, 2012, 03:47:39 AM
I would have to imaigne that selling stock in a company of which you are CEO and then buying up stock in the company that you sold it to wuld be at least somewhat illegal, even without brining CoH into the picture. shortsell the stock and then put your money in with the people you shortsell to... seems kinda out there to me.

Unless the CoH closure was to distract FROM his stock sell in foreign markets.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on November 26, 2012, 03:55:20 AM
I'm very tired from a long weekend with extended family, so I apologize if my memory is faulty, but I thought that sort of "trade" was common in mergers, at least in the States.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: BryanSnowden on November 26, 2012, 05:28:44 AM
IF, I were to guess (Or rather - scour the net for much longer than I care to calculate or even guess),
I'd bet it has something to do with THIS => http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/11/gstar-2012-mabinogi-ii-arena-developed-by-nexon-and-ncsoft/ (http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/11/gstar-2012-mabinogi-ii-arena-developed-by-nexon-and-ncsoft/)
I could be wrong,  but looks like he took his "eggs" and put them in a new Nexon/NCsoft "basket"... ?

I don't know much of anything about this *mabinogi 2* - and "Call me Ishmael..." = But, I suspect it's closer to the "WoW-Killer" they've been hunting for like the 'White Whale' for all these years now, no?

So, that would make it "Mabi-nogi Dick" right? ;)

Or it could, depending on how that game goes over in the long run - particularly if it flops!
That is there business model now right? "Flush" money on game after game until they find the next WoW = before someone else beats them to it? They're really just gambling at this point - albeit with other people's money & lives - it's still gambling = Gambling on them finding the next WoW, the REAL trick is funding the finding of it - Before people stop giving them money to hunt with?
Or until their Corporate "Golden-Parachutes" are big enough they don't care anymore, whichever comes first.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on November 26, 2012, 12:43:33 PM
I don't know much of anything about this *mabinogi 2* - and "Call me Ishmael..." = But, I suspect it's closer to the "WoW-Killer" they've been hunting for like the 'White Whale' for all these years now, no?

I knew nowt about it either, but a bit of snuffling around leads me to believe Mabinogi II : Arena will have more in common with the good ol' coin op Gauntlet than an MMO. Check out the games expo gameplay vids here :-

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2012-11-08/mabinogi_ii_arena_camera_footage_from_game_demo.shtml

The article even mentions a choice of 4 characters : Archer, Bard, Heavy Hammer, Sword+Shield (to me that reads as Elf, Wizard, Barbarian, Valkyrie). It's gory too, with blood splashing everywhere. Everything I've seen about it so far screams "games cabinet in an arcade" to me.

So they think resurrecting old coin ops with a modern graphic makeover is the brave new future that will save their share prices? How odd ???
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on November 26, 2012, 12:48:51 PM
I knew nowt about it either, but a bit of snuffling around leads me to believe Mabinogi II : Arena will have more in common with the good ol' coin op Gauntlet than an MMO. Check out the games expo gameplay vids here :-

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2012-11-08/mabinogi_ii_arena_camera_footage_from_game_demo.shtml

The article even mentions a choice of 4 characters : Archer, Bard, Heavy Hammer, Sword+Shield (to me that reads as Elf, Wizard, Barbarian, Valkyrie). It's gory too, with blood splashing everywhere. Everything I've seen about it so far screams "games cabinet in an arcade" to me.

So they think resurrecting old coin ops with a modern graphic makeover is the brave new future that will save their share prices? How odd ???

...I like it. Old games are fun. I see no reason not to resurrect them. SO, NCSoft, Nexon: While you are horrible people, I applaud your quest to bring arcade-style beat-em-ups back to the fore.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 28, 2012, 06:46:57 AM
Looks like the stock stabilized at 167 000 KRW. That's around $150 per share.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Arctic Force. on November 30, 2012, 06:04:30 PM
I find this fitting for Today http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on November 30, 2012, 06:12:01 PM
Another drop? Or something more specific?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on November 30, 2012, 07:03:33 PM
A 2% drop in 2 days.  :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on November 30, 2012, 11:52:31 PM
The redside me wants to see the stock freefall and crash to 100 won the moment they turn off the servers.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Jordan_Lee on November 30, 2012, 11:55:18 PM
The redside me wants to see the stock freefall and crash to 100 won the moment they turn off the servers.

Just your redside? Because my blueside is cheering that all the way.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JWBullfrog on December 01, 2012, 12:02:03 AM
The redside me wants to see the stock freefall and crash to 100 won the moment they turn off the servers.

My inner Praetorian wishes them all good fortune... while secretly plotting to insure their utter and absolute failure.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: biomekanic on December 01, 2012, 03:20:10 AM
Reading the player reviews is harsh on that GW2 event. A new game and the first try at a non Halloween event and people rack the Dev's over the coals.
Makes me think many of them would push my Granny of a sidewalk for walking slow.
( Feel better now thankyou :) )

Ok, I'll admit, I play GW2. The vast majority of my CoX friends were pre-orders for it, and I got it before the announcement.

GW2 is nice and all, but certainly not a replacement for CoX. The handling of the event was bad, and they should have learned a lot more from their Halloween event on what to do and not to do, but it certainly didn't seem that way.

Funny enough, they've just now released the ability to completely change your characters appearance, including gender. This costs 1000 "gmes", IIRC, which translates into a fair chunk of real world change; $10 will buy you 800 gmes. You can buy gems for in-game money. Right now around 1 gold piece per 100 gems... which is a lot of in-game money. You can buy a cheaper kit, to change your hair color and style, as well as eye color, for "only" 400 gems (again, IIRC).

Arenanet seems really fond of doing 1 time events during the work/school day, which appears to piss off a huge part of their player base.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: KSinclaire on December 01, 2012, 06:41:55 AM
Ok, I'll admit, I play GW2. The vast majority of my CoX friends were pre-orders for it, and I got it before the announcement.

GW2 is nice and all, but certainly not a replacement for CoX. The handling of the event was bad, and they should have learned a lot more from their Halloween event on what to do and not to do, but it certainly didn't seem that way.

Funny enough, they've just now released the ability to completely change your characters appearance, including gender. This costs 1000 "gmes", IIRC, which translates into a fair chunk of real world change; $10 will buy you 800 gmes. You can buy gems for in-game money. Right now around 1 gold piece per 100 gems... which is a lot of in-game money. You can buy a cheaper kit, to change your hair color and style, as well as eye color, for "only" 400 gems (again, IIRC).

Arenanet seems really fond of doing 1 time events during the work/school day, which appears to piss off a huge part of their player base.

*nudges* It's 350 gems, actually. For the full appearance edit. Hairstyle/color by itself is 150. And you can get that with.. 3-4 gold, through currency trading. But, yes, they are rather fond of doing their events at.. inconvenient times. I actually didn't get to see any of the Lost Shores event.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 01, 2012, 07:24:45 PM
i hope to see their stocks burn faster than a thermite balloon in the next few days
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on December 02, 2012, 07:38:08 AM
i hope to see their stocks burn faster than a thermite balloon in the next few days

This may very well be the first time I'll be looking forward to Monday.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Samuraiko on December 02, 2012, 07:53:07 AM
Y'know, I am kicking myself for not demoediting a mayhem mission and changing the artwork on the front of the bank to the NCsoft corporate logo, and then having an 8-man MM team with full pets just go swarming through the place like a plague of Egypt.

BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on December 02, 2012, 08:04:29 AM
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.

Honestly, I think that's a little uncalled for. Wishing unemployment on tens of thousands of employees and or depriving possibly millions of gamers just like ourselves has no moral or ethical grounds - they did us no harm.

But if the day comes when Taek Jin Kim and whoever else made and executed the decision to murder City of Heroes are dragged by their feet outside NCsoft headquarters and publicly flogged by the players of the games they buried, I'll be buying a cattle prod and an airplane ticket to Korea.

Hey, a man can dream.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: downix on December 02, 2012, 08:07:19 AM
Y'know, I am kicking myself for not demoediting a mayhem mission and changing the artwork on the front of the bank to the NCsoft corporate logo, and then having an 8-man MM team with full pets just go swarming through the place like a plague of Egypt.

BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
I'll bring the desserts

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ichaerus on December 02, 2012, 08:43:13 AM
Y'know, I am kicking myself for not demoediting a mayhem mission and changing the artwork on the front of the bank to the NCsoft corporate logo, and then having an 8-man MM team with full pets just go swarming through the place like a plague of Egypt.

BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

Will you allow us to show up in costume for your barbecue?  Can I bring beer for the adults, and soda or juice boxes for the kids?  ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 02, 2012, 09:12:37 AM
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.
But if the day comes when Taek Jin Kim and whoever else made and executed the decision to murder City of Heroes are dragged by their feet outside NCsoft headquarters and publicly flogged by the players of the games they buried, I'll be buying a cattle prod and an airplane ticket to Korea.
While I can understand the sentiment, I honestly wouldn't want to wish physical harm on NCsoft publically - you know some muckraker will try to use statements like that to smear us as hateful monsters.  It's ammo for the unicorns.

However, if NCsoft fails as a company due to their own stupidity and mismanagement of their assets, I won't be shedding tears, that's for sure.  Instead, I'll be booking a plane ticket to Seattle for a wonderful barbecue.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 02, 2012, 09:38:03 AM
Rumor hath it that Nexon is buying up the cheap shares.  This could get interesting if true.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on December 02, 2012, 10:29:04 AM
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.
There are days in Seattle where the weather suits a barbeque?  Or is this a localized version of "a cold day in hell" :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on December 02, 2012, 11:18:52 AM
Rumor hath it that Nexon is buying up the cheap shares.  This could get interesting if true.
What, they didn't get enough when TJKim undersold 2/3 of his stock to them? ;)

I dunno, maybe NCsoft shares are like Pringles, and now Nexon has popped, they just can't stop...or something. Personally I'd think cheap NCsoft shares would be more like a saccharin coating around a tablet of pure bitter quinine...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 02, 2012, 11:23:45 AM
Sounds like they want a controlling interest
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 02, 2012, 01:11:59 PM
While it is possible for NCSoft to go bankrupt and all of the employees lose their jobs...

There are scenarios where the entire company could quite blissfully die and the workforce could be taken along with the company by another smart enough to not want to hire all new people.

Of course, people in redundant departments like admin and HR could still be affected unfortunately, but this is still something worth keeping in mind. I want NCSoft to tank as much as the next person, but I want it to do so in that way where it doesn't hurt the little guy, or the middle guy, or really anyone besides the people on top.

Unfortunately the way it usually goes is the person on top, even if damaged in a way where any of us would be up a certain creek without paddles, they have enough to still sit pretty for the rest of their lives.

How they could do what they did to Garriot and just end up throwing money at the problem bothers me a lot. Sometimes its hard not to feel like if you have money there are no consequences for even the dumbest or thoughtless of actions. Fingers crossed that I'm proven wrong :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Jordan_Lee on December 02, 2012, 03:40:39 PM
Rumor hath it that Nexon is buying up the cheap shares.  This could get interesting if true.

New conspiracy theory? Nexon takes a good chunk of NCSoft, NCSoft drops CoH, stocks plummet, Nexon buys up more NCSoft, and more, and more, and then...controls NCSoft??

I don't know how any of that stuff works. I just enjoy all the diabolical schemes and conspiracy theories that people keep making up.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: houtex on December 02, 2012, 05:08:07 PM
All due respect to 'not hurt the little man' ideas re: NCSoft tanking, let me say this...

They work there.  They rumormonger like the rest of us.  They KNOW what's going on.  If they stay, and the company tanks, then that's their own fault for not being proactive.

Yes yes... job market, economy... whatever.  A bad company, and you stay?  You're either getting paid to stay, love it so much you can't leave, or are stupid/shortsighted/scared witless.  Probably a couple of other veins, but them three are prevaling.

I will not weep for any person involved with NCSoft if the company fails, as long as CoH is kept locked away in the vaults of NCSoft.  They have choosen their beds and layed in them.

Let us not worry about 'the little people' of that company, because they can do that for themselves, and should.

/And yes, I've been one of those.  It sucks, but life moves on.
//Did NCSoft think of 'the little people', meaning us, or the Studio?  Nope.  Not so much, methinks, or we'd all still be on, the Devs would still be in the Studio.
///Business is business... And that's all that is.  NCSoft is now bad business, and stickin' around is... well, that's their problem, those 'little peoples.'
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 02, 2012, 05:28:38 PM
I don't recall seeing this brought up, but there was a blurb in a short Bloomberg article from the beginning of November that was about major Korean companies. It's really more a list of stats, but in the middle of it is a fragment about NCSoft citing their Q3 earnings.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-08/correct-south-korean-equity-movers-nhn-gs-hyundai-ncsoft.html
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eviella on December 02, 2012, 08:45:29 PM
There are days in Seattle where the weather suits a barbeque?  Or is this a localized version of "a cold day in hell" :)

Late spring and summer in the Seattle area is almost always beautiful.  We just don't advertise it much, and the rainy winters keep a lot of people away. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mistress Urd on December 02, 2012, 09:35:41 PM
Y'know, I am kicking myself for not demoediting a mayhem mission and changing the artwork on the front of the bank to the NCsoft corporate logo, and then having an 8-man MM team with full pets just go swarming through the place like a plague of Egypt.

BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

One of many BBQ happening that day.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 02, 2012, 09:37:11 PM
Late spring and summer in the Seattle area is almost always beautiful.  We just don't advertise it much, and the rainy winters keep a lot of people away.

Don't want dirty tourists coming in and mucking it up? Bad enough with all the sailors over in Bremerton? ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 02, 2012, 10:10:14 PM
Can't wait till Monday to see how badly the stock bombs now.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Tubbius on December 02, 2012, 10:16:38 PM
Ooooooo.  That's tomorrow.  :o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Technerdoc on December 02, 2012, 10:45:34 PM
Maybe it's going up now...  ???
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chaparralshrub on December 02, 2012, 10:51:14 PM
Well, NCSoft knows what they can do that will completely silence all of this bad press they're going.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 02, 2012, 10:54:51 PM
Um. Yeah, the KRX actually opens in an hour. This might be a good night. I'll have to run for more beer, I think. Something snooty, like Stella Artois or something else I can't pronounce.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: epawtows on December 02, 2012, 10:57:30 PM
I'll bring the desserts

I've been told that I bake a mean cheesecake.  Will be happy to bring it. 

When it gets closer to Easter, we should think about a meet-up at Norwescon. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Globetrotter on December 02, 2012, 11:00:37 PM
Um. Yeah, the KRX actually opens in an hour. This might be a good night. I'll have to run for more beer, I think. Something snooty, like Stella Artois or something else I can't pronounce.

Take something stgronger and unpronounceable http://www.alliantie-van-biertapperijen.nl/bier.php?p=228 (http://www.alliantie-van-biertapperijen.nl/bier.php?p=228)  8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 02, 2012, 11:21:26 PM
I think that's illegal, here. :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Tubbius on December 02, 2012, 11:37:18 PM
Looks like the stock thingy on page 21 is updated to show stuff for December 3.

Well, let's watch and see, I guess.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 03, 2012, 12:46:36 AM
Well, NCSoft knows what they can do that will completely silence all of this bad press they're going.

I don't think it would stop all the bad press. It would slow the flood of bad press they've been getting, but I don't think that simply coughing up the game is going to make us all forget -- much less forgive -- what they did. I expect that we would continue to see people spreading the word that NCSoft considers you -- and the rest of its customers -- a fungible commodity with an infinite supply, so they are free to do whatever they want to you, and you can just suck it up. That's why I didn't bother with any sort of expression of my disappointment with Aion when I quit playing it; I was certain that the corporate attitude would be 'bye, there are thousands more to take your place'.

[[EDIT: Fixing flubbed bbcode ~Agge]]
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Tubbius on December 03, 2012, 01:13:05 AM
The green. . . it slowly climbs.  :|
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 03, 2012, 01:35:47 AM
I don't think it would stop all the bad press. It would slow the flood of bad press they've been getting, but I don't think that simply coughing up the game is going to make us all forget -- much less forgive -- what they did. I expect that we would continue to see people spreading the word that NCSoft considers you -- and the rest of its customers -- a fungible commodity with an infinite supply, so they are free to do whatever they want to you, and you can just suck it up. That's why I didn't bother with any sort of expression of my disappointment with Aion when I quit playing it; I was certain that the corporate attitude would be 'bye, there are thousands more to take your place'.

I have this urge to keep nudging you with my elbow whilst going "shhhhhh" louder and louder.


[[EDIT: Fixing flubbed bbcode in quote ~Agge]]
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 03, 2012, 06:35:12 AM
Honestly, I think that's a little uncalled for. Wishing unemployment on tens of thousands of employees and or depriving possibly millions of gamers just like ourselves has no moral or ethical grounds - they did us no harm.

But if the day comes when Taek Jin Kim and whoever else made and executed the decision to murder City of Heroes are dragged by their feet outside NCsoft headquarters and publicly flogged by the players of the games they buried, I'll be buying a cattle prod and an airplane ticket to Korea.

Hey, a man can dream.

I dont think anyone really wishes harm on unsuspecting employees; but lets face it, they work for a labile company becoming rather... well-known for unwise business decisions.

I'd say almost certainly they will end up losing those jobs one way or another. NCSoft is probably the kind of outfit that waits till everyone leaves the building for lunch, locks the doors and then texts everyone that they are now fired. I could TOTALLY see them doing that.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on December 03, 2012, 07:15:01 AM
Rumor hath it that Nexon is buying up the cheap shares.  This could get interesting if true.

Sounds like they want a controlling interest

I don't know if it's true or not, but when a stock tanks like NCsoft's has, it's actually not unusual for a company (or its investors) to start buying back stock at a higher price to make it look better than it actually is.  That could (not saying is, because I don't know) explain why they've had some positive bumps the past week after pretty steady decline.

However, it almost never works to provide long-term stability.  Either they managed to buy back most of their stock to the point where it makes them look really bad, or they run out of money to keep buying and have to stop, sending the stock plummeting again.  Some really big companies can afford to do it for a while until whatever financial hurt they're in passes, it helps to give their investors faith in the company's ability to weather storms.  If Nexon is doing it for that reason, I can't imagine that it will end any way but badly.

Or The Fifth Horseman could be right.  They could be doing it to make a play for controlling interest.  If that happens, well, I'm not sure we'll be in any better of a position that we're in now dealing with NCsoft, but it almost certainly would mean management changes and different people to be targeting for communications.

Or the opposite could happen.  If NCsoft's stock falls much more, it could spook Nexon to the point where they just want to dump their shares while they still can, cut their losses, and go their merry way.  If that happens, NCsoft has some very hard days ahead of it.

In any event, they really could have used some positive PR right now, they aren't getting it, and I really do believe that we are making a difference.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 03, 2012, 07:21:36 AM
i agree, it does seem that almost any event that happens in the future timestream still ends with ncsoft getting screwed over

i think it might help them slightly if they actually negotiated a sale for the games IP and accounts, it would be the quickest way to satisfy all of us and would stop our continual spreading of bad PR (although i think most of us have gotten to the point of personal boycott of ncsoft products due to the way they handled this whole matter)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 03, 2012, 09:03:15 AM
The stock did start at +2%. Now it's at +0.3%. The bombing, it has begun.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Sarge Morris on December 03, 2012, 09:16:55 AM
BTW - the day that NCsoft files for bankruptcy, I'm hosting a barbecue here in Seattle.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

I'm hosting a matching barbecue in the Greater Philadelphia area.  I like that idea. 

In the current global economy, things are pretty cutthroat.  You've got to be smart to survive.  What NC Soft did was decidedly not smart.  Its simply Darwin at work.  If they're not smart enough to go where the money is, they get what they deserve.  They took my game and my friends away from me. I'm taking my money away from them.  Their loss.  And when they fail, they'll only have themselves to blame.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blackbird71 on December 03, 2012, 07:19:54 PM
Considering some people (not all, but some people) here, I doubt the bad PR would stop even if NCsoft did everything *and more*.

Some people just want to hate on someone, even if the someone does everything in their power to rectify the situation...

Some people would just see it as "too little, too late."  Personally, if NCSoft were to sell the IP and game now, after turning down prevous offers and the game has already gone dark, I would interpret it as a purely selfish move to slow the bleeding rather than any desire to generate or maintain good will among their customers, and I would not be likely to cut them any slack for it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on December 03, 2012, 07:32:11 PM
Considering some people (not all, but some people) here, I doubt the bad PR would stop even if NCsoft did everything *and more*.

True, but you'd be surprised how far an apology and a legitimate attempt to make things right would go.  I think that if NCsoft were to let go of the IP and post something that amounts to, "We were wrong, we're sorry.  We know that things will never be the same, but we've heard you and we're trying our best to undo what damage has been done," I think a LOT of people would feel a lot better about the company and they could still use it for some positive PR.

But to be honest, I don't see anything remotely close to that happening anytime soon, certainly not in that tone.  If they decided to sell it tomorrow, I can almost guarantee you that the tone would be more like, "Hey look!  We took this dead property worth practically zero and made some money off of it!"  Some people would forgive and forget, but undoubtedly a lot more would continue the battle to bring down NCsoft.

As for me, if they issued a mea culpa and made an honest attempt to make things right, I'd probably post something saying that I'm glad they finally figured out what we've been saying all along, and hope that they remember the lesson well going forward and stop killing off communities.  If they adopted the latter tone, I'd be happy for the sake of the game and I'd probably stop actively lobbying for NCsoft to suck air, but I wouldn't ask people who are still angry to stop since, frankly, I understand where they're coming from and wouldn't be convinced that NCsoft isn't going to turn around and do the same thing to Arena.net or someone else in the not-too-distant future.  And if NCsoft does do it to someone like that, you'd better believe that I'm going to be standing there with that community helping out any way I can.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JWBullfrog on December 03, 2012, 07:32:52 PM
Some people would just see it as "too little, too late."  Personally, if NCSoft were to sell the IP and game now, after turning down prevous offers and the game has already gone dark, I would interpret it as a purely selfish move to slow the bleeding rather than any desire to generate or maintain good will among their customers, and I would not be likely to cut them any slack for it.

The important point is that they sold the game.
I simply do not care what becomes of NCSoft otherwise. If they die, that's probably their own fault. If they succeed, somebody got their act together. They only had one product I was ever interested in and, we know how that has turned out.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Technerdoc on December 03, 2012, 07:36:51 PM
How long can a company do this? Closing games, treat the community like shit, don't sell any from this IPs and hope that the lemming-games play one from their other games? I mean we wasn't the first one, but we was always thinking that this can't happen to us, beccause our game is profitable...

One time it just have to be the big crash there. Life is just not fair  :-\
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 03, 2012, 08:10:29 PM
Considering some people (not all, but some people) here, I doubt the bad PR would stop even if NCsoft did everything *and more*.

Some people just want to hate on someone, even if the someone does everything in their power to rectify the situation...

Had they done everything in their power to rectify the situation, they would have set a reasonable price and sold Paragon Studios and City of Heroes before the sunset, so that the Paragon Studios staff and resources could have been transitioned to the buyer's employ, development and operation of the game temporarily halted while the transfer of the server configurations to new hardware under the control of the buyer took place (or snapshotting the servers while leaving them up and making the playerbase aware that nothing they did after date X would be preserved under the new management), and the game restarted, instead of squeezing City of Heroes tightly in their fist crying "My Precioussss..."

And I don't think that keeping the gaming community aware of NCSoft's demonstrated attitudes and practices, as a warning to people considering taking up one of their MMOs, constitutes 'hating on' NCSoft. If someone genuinely wants to play Aion, or Blade & Soul, it's their decision, but making sure that they're informed about what they may be setting themselves up for is a service to the community. If it happens to cut into NCSoft's bottom line, well, that's a consequence of the business decisions that NCSoft makes; if they hadn't been making their decisions based on the almighty bottom line and their view of the image of the company, they wouldn't be in the position of having tens of thousands of severely honked-off ex-players ready to do NCSoft dirty.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 03, 2012, 08:15:47 PM
I too read what VV and Fansy said about legal complications. About a week or so ago someone on Virtue was talking about that over the LFG channel and I boiled my response down to "I'll believe it when I see it". Eventually the person who was really touting this rumor accepted my viewpoint even if they didn't completely agree with it.

You see, NCSoft has a habit, nay, a history of killing games and then sitting on the IP. I'm a skeptic, and one who believes in studying what history teaches us. Sure, people can change, companies too can change, but its relatively rare. Usually they keep doing the same things, again and again, until their hubris and lack of foresight trip them up in some fashion. Sometimes the trip-up is minor, sometimes its devastating.

So yeah, until that rumor becomes truth, its just another unconfirmed bit of info: what we in TransFormers fandom somewhat mockingly refer to as "SECRET INSIDE SOURCES". In the case of VV, I respect her, unlike some info-spouting fanboy that nobody knows from Adam. As such I do not doubt her sincerity, clout, or intent. However she's a messenger in this particular case, and the message could be flawed.

So, as I have said elsewhere: time will eventually tell the tale, as it does in all things.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blackbird71 on December 03, 2012, 08:42:00 PM
If it happens to cut into NCSoft's bottom line, well, that's a consequence of the business decisions that NCSoft makes; if they hadn't been making their decisions based on the almighty bottom line and their view of the image of the company, they wouldn't be in the position of having tens of thousands of severely honked-off ex-players ready to do NCSoft dirty.

That's just it though; if they had been making decisions based on the bottom line (at least, the long-term bottom line, and not just the next quarterly report), I have to believe that NCSoft would have either kept the game running as a profitable entity, or sold it while it was active and had appreciable value.  Everything I know about business (which is probably more than most people but less than many) tells me that their decisions make no sense, either in terms of customer relations or overall profitability.  From an outside observer, NCSoft's choice appear to be driven more by stubborn pride than anything else, and that is no way to successfully run a business.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 03, 2012, 08:43:16 PM
I should note that VV has, herself, stated that keeping up the pressure is crucial even now precisely because NCSoft must feel a desire to sell. So, if it is in fact now possible, they must feel the pressure EVEN HARDER so that the sudden ease of selling combined with the increase of pressure acts to pop the cork out of the bottle in which they've stuffed the deed to CoH.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 03, 2012, 08:47:48 PM
Wholeheartedly agreed.

I'm not advocating doing nothing, nor am I pooping on the proverbial party (which was a cause some nameless posters formerly here and on the CoH boards seemed frighteningly dedicated to). I'm just saying I'll believe it when I see it.

I think my favorite line from ANGEL describes my mindset pretty well:

"...if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do. Now. Today."

I don't fight for CoX because I believe I'll be rewarded in some way (be it the return of the game, chiefly), but rather because I feel what NCSoft did was wrong, and fighting for our beloved game and community is the right thing to do.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 03, 2012, 08:51:15 PM
True, but you'd be surprised how far an apology and a legitimate attempt to make things right would go.  I think that if NCsoft were to let go of the IP and post something that amounts to, "We were wrong, we're sorry.  We know that things will never be the same, but we've heard you and we're trying our best to undo what damage has been done," I think a LOT of people would feel a lot better about the company and they could still use it for some positive PR.

The sad thing is, even though every word of this is true, and we see it at play in current events with BP, I just don't think it's culturally possible.  I know people have said that this kind of xenophob-esque rhetoric is out of line, and I agree. But an unpleasant truth is still a truth.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 03, 2012, 08:54:58 PM
The sad thing is, even though every word of this is true, and we see it at play in current events with BP, I just don't think it's culturally possible.  I know people have said that this kind of xenophob-esque rhetoric is out of line, and I agree. But an unpleasant truth is still a truth.

Heh...

Dear stereotypical people: If stereotypes are wrong, please do your part to stop proving them right."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Technerdoc on December 03, 2012, 09:02:35 PM
Sorry in destroying any illusions, but absolutly nothing will happen there. NC-Soft never wanted to sell or keep the game running, there are other ways how to handle this when they really wanted to do this and we will never find out the reason. I don't see any sense why they do this like that, but it's their way that they never sell anything. I will be surprised when this will happen, but I'm sure that there was some companys intressted in City of Heroes when other smaller games, also close to the shutdown find someone too. Maybe they really wanted to make a part 2 in some years when everyone will forget what happend here, who knows.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 03, 2012, 09:11:03 PM
anything ncsoft makes would be an abomination and i would refuse to play it

as far as we know the devs secret project got trashed when they all got fired

if ncsoft wants to make anything else, it wont be from our devs and thus will prolly be terrible and horrible abomination disrespecting the original game
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Technerdoc on December 03, 2012, 09:15:11 PM
Right, the people will never accept a part 2 from an other team so long the better part 1 is still running, so the game must be closed...

Hmm it's still stupid...  :-\
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 03, 2012, 09:16:34 PM
Sorry in destroying any illusions, but absolutly nothing will happen there.
You know what, I'm pretty cynical, but you aren't clairvoyant and you don't know that. That's simply your belief. Well-founded, yes, but a belief all the same.

I believe it too, but I don't make declarations of certainties that I cannot know. I always reserve the option to be mistaken.

Maybe they really wanted to make a part 2 in some years when everyone will forget what happend here, who knows.
Yeah, again, cynic here, but guess what...some people have long memories. I still recall the shoddy treatment and lies Miramax gave the fans of the Crow franchise in regards to the release of "The Crow-Salvation" back in 1999-2000, and while there aren't a lot of us, I'm not alone. I boycotted every single Miramax release for over 2 years.

Only 2 things will make me "forget", 1 is a possibility (insanity/amnesia/senility), the the other a certainty (death). And again, I won't be alone.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 03, 2012, 09:18:29 PM
Right, the people will never accept a part 2 from an other team so long the better part 1 is still running, so the game must be closed...

Hmm it's still stupid...  :-\

If part 1 is better, don't make part 2?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 03, 2012, 09:27:59 PM
I should note that VV has, herself, stated that keeping up the pressure is crucial even now precisely because NCSoft must feel a desire to sell. So, if it is in fact now possible, they must feel the pressure EVEN HARDER so that the sudden ease of selling combined with the increase of pressure acts to pop the cork out of the bottle in which they've stuffed the deed to CoH.

This. Remember that, as things stand right now, there is nothing more that NCSoft can do to us. Fire the developers? Three months back. Shut down the game servers? Done. Closed the forums? Done. Packed the IP away in a box, never to see the light of day again? Their history with other IPs would suggest that this is where CoH will wind up; certainly it's already been binned. We, on the other hand, are under no such restriction. Our efforts to raise NCSoft's business practices to the light of public scrutiny will continue to haunt NCSoft like Banquo's ghost, and the more publicity we can get, the more we can erode confidence in NCSoft's performance, the closer we will get to convincing them that the only way out of the pit they have dug for themselves is to sell City of Heroes.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 03, 2012, 09:29:51 PM
Does this mean I don't have to be nice, anymore?  >:(
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JWBullfrog on December 03, 2012, 09:34:11 PM
Does this mean I don't have to be nice, anymore?  >:(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTh5JzRziHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTh5JzRziHE)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Technerdoc on December 03, 2012, 09:37:09 PM
No I'm not a clairvoyant but even when, maybe Disney buy the IP, without a developer team it only makes sense when they  re-hired them and this is not sure that they really come back. Or they buy it to make a part 2, but why buy City of Heroes when they have a much better known Marvel franchise and can just use this for a game? It's hard to belive that they really do this, or anyone else and brings the money and do this gamble.

The problem is with the part 2, that part 1 have so many content that people will always miss something. The game is old, the market has changed and maybe they wanted to change the gameplay to reach more people. For example I don't like Guild Wars 2, but millons are playing it and like it. I don't know why, the reviews was great but I think the game is absolutly boring. It looks like that I'm a part of a minority group and the same can happen to City of Heroes 2. Everyone said about the new copy protection sytems for example on the PC they don't buy this game, but then an Assassins Greed was one of the top sellers list anyway. People forget such things fast and here in Germany no one cares about what happend here. There was a news about the shutdown of course and with 2 messages under it...
   
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: unladenswallow on December 03, 2012, 09:37:49 PM
Dear stereotypical people: If stereotypes are wrong, please do your part to stop proving them right."

Well stereotypes are almost always based on a partial truth that is viewed through biased eyes. When I was in China I was frequently told in general conversation by people I had just met that I was fat. As if I had forgotten this somehow. the reality is there are very few fat people amongst the middle to lower income populace which is the majority of the country's population. It's not something they normally see. They are also more straight forward and blunt in conversations by western standards. All of these factors lead to me hearing "Ah, you are fat!" quite often. This is why many tourists who are largely unaware of the culture assume that people from China are rude and from their set of social guidelines and ignorance of aspects of Chinese culture they are. You can only make assessments base on the body of knowledge you have. I was able to take all of this into consideration when this happened but because of the social norms I grew up with I still felt as if it were rude even though I fully understood the social mechanics behind it.

I understand and even share much of the concerns many people have about being "xenophob-esque " but even with that you have to take it with a grain of salt. I'm sure similar cultural factors figure in to how NC Soft has treated us and they have been discussed at great length on at least one other thread. As a community I think we have done our cultural homework well enough that we should be able to make clear references to their actions without having to constantly adding apologetic cultural caveats in our posts when we describe the way they treated us as contemptible or in this case that their cultural norms would not allow them to make a satisfactory apology to us even if they wanted to. Given the great deal of attention we have given this issue I wouldn't think that addressing such issues directly were xenophobic but just what dwtruducken said it was addressing an unpleasant truth.

Sorry if this post seems a bit of an overstatement or possibly superfluous but I find cultural/social issues interesting and thought this might help.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on December 03, 2012, 10:43:14 PM
Remember that, as things stand right now, there is nothing more that NCSoft can do to us.

Wrong. They can sue every site that harbors detailed content about the game, including this one, for exceeding the provisions of fair use. Similarly, they could force Youtube to remove many of the videos derived from the game's content.

Of course, no sane company would dare sue their fans for making promotional use of their intellectual property...but I think we can pretty safely conclude that they don't give a flying fart about the CoX property itself at this point. If you step on the tiger's tail hard enough, you might be quite surprised just how hard he can bite.

And if anyone steps outside the facts and wanders into speculation in their attacks, NCsoft might sue them for libel. Whether they win or not is almost irrelevant; they can drive you to bankruptcy before you even set foot in a courtroom. Being the subject of a lawsuit is not the kind of excitement any sane person should be looking for.

Think that other gaming communities will rally to your side if NCsoft starts playing hardball? Perhaps not, especially if NCsoft can make a cogent argument that you were attacking it mercilessly and they responded just to make it stop. If they put up with PR attacks for months, then finally clamp down, the group here might find itself in a very awkward position of being portrayed in the public eye as a collection of bitter extremists. The general public knows next to nothing of our plight. They don't know and they don't care. You shouldn't expect them to automatically take our side just because you feel we have been wronged, and make no mistake, I feel we have been wronged.

NCsoft did not close the game by credibly saying, "we're sorry, but we just can't afford to keep the game running...we really want this game to prosper, and we know how much you all love your home here, but there's not enough demand for it and we're losing money on it, so we can't continue." They couldn't say it. It wasn't true. What we received instead was an imperial dismissal: "We're done with you now, peasants. You don't factor into our plans any longer. Now go away before we set the guards upon you." Their intransigent refusal to negotiate a continuation of the game on other terms deprives them of the privilege to repudiate their initial dismissive impression.

I, too, think we're owed an apology as customers.

But if, once we receive any apology, we continue to drive the screws in, we would look mean and petty. Moreover, there's another thing to consider here: if NCsoft's PR firm---which is unquestionably monitoring the activities of this group, if for no other reason than to spot potential libel or outright copyright infringement---if they were to get the reasonable impression that there would be no benefit to having NCsoft relent, what do you suppose their recommendation would be? We are playing a political game here, folks, and we need to think like political animals.

In game theory, there is a rather interesting result from experimental automata on the prisoner's dilemma. It turns out that no program, regardless of sophistication, has been able to outdo the overall performance of an extremely simple agent---one that retaliates exactly once for every attack made upon it, but otherwise defaults to a position of unbroken trust. More aggressive retaliators tend to get into "scorched earth" exchanges with their opponents, while more forgiving agents get walked upon.

Making NCsoft uncomfortable is only half the battle. In order to induce them to sell, we have to convincingly demonstrate that the discomfort will stop when they acquiesce. If we cannot make that argument stick, this is all a waste of time. They, too, can take a hardline "screw them to death" position and curl up like a little turtle, refusing to sell the CoX IP until the copyright expires, at which point many of us will undoubtedly be dead...and finding a computer old enough to play this game might be difficult or impossible.

So you think everything will be peachy if we can just drive them into bankruptcy? If they reorganize, they can restructure their debts without liquidating most of their assets. I can assure you that no one here will be considered a creditor in any reorganization proceeding. Even if the IP is sold at that point, the purchaser may well be Asian and harbor their own resentments about the behavior of this group.

I'm not saying that I will ever personally buy another NCsoft product again, but I will make an effort to keep my mouth shut if they take their foot out of my ass. If we turn this into a racial and moral crusade of indignity, you can expect disaster to follow.

I prefer to play this game to win. If that means I have to cheer when they sell the IP, I will cheer. If it means I must smile and say "thank you," I will smile and say "thank you." What I think about their behavior personally doesn't matter to anyone but me. The game is worth more than my pride. I will do whatever I need to do to execute my aim, and my aim is to have them sell the rights to someone who cares.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 03, 2012, 11:59:33 PM
I could prattle on about things I don't know and state guesses as facts and toss in a few (rather good) jokes that came to mind from other posts, but, instead...

How them stocks?
:D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 04, 2012, 12:02:34 AM
Look, I just want an opportunity to use an image of Nelson Muntz at NCSoft's expense, is that so wrong? :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 04, 2012, 12:07:35 AM
Nononono! I wanna hear the libelous, scandalous prattling!  :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 04, 2012, 07:14:39 AM
Gentlemen, I'm pleased to announce that the numbers are in red. The stock fell -1.86% since yesterday.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 04, 2012, 07:18:54 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=gifrific.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F09%2FSeinfeld-Laughing-with-Cigar.gif)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: healix on December 04, 2012, 07:24:24 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/8cKMd.gif)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 04, 2012, 08:05:59 AM
Gentlemen, I'm pleased to announce that the numbers are in red. The stock fell -1.86% since yesterday.

As promised!

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.corvusonline.net%2Fforum_images%2Fnelson_haw_haw.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 04, 2012, 08:10:07 AM
"...the numbers are in red."

Heh! November was a dreadful month for them. If December is equally bad, they'll be back where they were in 2007.

Investors and NCSoft are likely asking themselves why. Perhaps they should be asking instead why so many are cheering about it. I believe in the laws of karma, and having so many people justly angry at you is very bad karma. Moving on....

"Wrong. They can sue every site that harbors detailed content about the game, including this one, for exceeding the provisions of fair use. Similarly, they could force Youtube to remove many of the videos derived from the game's content."

True, but the data would simply resurface elsewhere.

I'm no lawyer. But I do know that in the US, verifiable cases of Internet libel go unpunished by the courts. There are simply too many unicorns for the courts to take such things seriously. Despite this, I do not advocate libel, but that we ought instead to simply say the truth about NCSoft as loudly as possible: NCSoft sucks.

They can attempt to take legal action against us for that, yes. As I said, I'm no lawyer, but I am military. And I know that a "formless" enemy like us is almost impossible to fight. We have no head to strike off, no heart to stab, we cannot be defeated if they attack. The worst they can do to us is to hoard the IP out of spite, and they will only succeed in this so long as Mr. Kim is in charge. Every fall in their stock brings him closer to ouster.

But we... we will never stop, not until they sell. And they cannot stop us, no matter what they do.

(I did raise the alarm against one possible endgame: deletion of the files. Other voices have convinced me that is not among Kim's options, thank heaven! I'm sure he'd do so with pleasure.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 04, 2012, 08:35:42 AM
They can attempt to take legal action against us for that, yes. As I said, I'm no lawyer, but I am military. And I know that a "formless" enemy like us is almost impossible to fight. We have no head to strike off, no heart to stab, we cannot be defeated if they attack.
The worst thing they could do is cause us to disperse and act individually. That would make it impossible to call the campaign off, ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEImdPWgIGk

Quote
(I did raise the alarm against one possible endgame: deletion of the files. Other voices have convinced me that is not among Kim's options, thank heaven! I'm sure he'd do so with pleasure.)
Do not underestimate the power of human pettiness and spite.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Undercat on December 04, 2012, 12:05:20 PM
I'm no lawyer. But I do know that in the US, verifiable cases of Internet libel go unpunished by the courts. There are simply too many (word substituted) for the courts to take such things seriously. Despite this, I do not advocate libel, but that we ought instead to simply say the truth about NCSoft as loudly as possible: NCSoft sucks.

To say "NCsoft sucks" is merely an opinion. I think it would be pretty unlikely to ever land you in court. I, too, am not an attorney, but I worked in publishing, marketing and advertising for over a decade and became pretty sensitive to legal issues that affected those trades. I wrote a large number of product reviews about professional media equipment, not all of which were especially flattering. My understanding of the general principles of libel law in this country, for all the little it may be worth, is that you typically need to make a damaging claim that is purported to be fact, but which is actually untrue, or make an especially vicious and unwarranted attack, in order to be successfully sued. While I don't doubt there may be special exceptions, truth and accuracy are normally considered privileged defenses in defamation cases; after all, if that were not the case, newspapers, magazines and television networks could be sued merely for publishing unflattering news about people or corporations. Fortunately things are not quite that bad. That's why I said "...if anyone steps outside the facts...."

I should probably underscore that opinions are not considered facts (a review is largely an opinion, after all), so provided it is clear you are making a subjective judgment, and you don't descend into outrageous invective, you're probably also safe in most jurisdictions. But don't construe that as legal advice by any means---as I said, I'm not an attorney or a scholar, and as far as I'm concerned, nothing is final until the Supreme Court says it is. On each specific case, at that. I've heard of some really outrageous suits. You take your chances anytime you assume an adversarial posture with anyone, that's the only thing I'm certain of, and it's what I'm trying to get across here.

Quote
But we... we will never stop, not until they sell.

No argument there. I say shine a spotlight on the turds...until they sell. But the impression I'm getting from some posters in various forum threads here is more akin to a call for unlimited war---a vindictive "no quarter" attitude that would persist long after NCsoft sold the IP, assuming they ever did. What motivation would NCsoft have to sell the IP if they didn't think their tormentors were ever going to go away? Who are we to demand unconditional surrender, then execute the defeated for "war crimes?" I chuckle at the very thought. We'll be plenty lucky enough if we can just get them to cough up the IP at all. Even if they were to go bankrupt and be liquidated instead of reorganized, there's no guarantee that the trustee (assuming that's how they do things there) would award the CoX IP to a party friendly to our cause.

All I'm saying is that we should attempt to play a politically savvy hand.

What I, personally, would like to see is for a large U.S. corporation to make a reasonable bid for the CoX assets and announce to us publicly that they did so. If NCsoft's executive management refuses the bid, which I sadly suspect they might do, then we can turn right around and take the issue to some of their shareholders (http://investors.morningstar.com/ownership/shareholders-major.html?t=036570&region=KOR&culture=en-us). Let them start asking questions for us. Have them pester NCsoft's management to accept payment for a property that otherwise would simply rot in the ground. We, as individuals, are easy to ignore. Institutional investors are not as easy to ignore, even the smaller ones (since trading prices are determined at the margins). My goal would be to seed an atmosphere of "no confidence" within the NCsoft investor community, right up to Nexon, that leads to a serious dialog about what the CoX property is worth, and to good-faith negotiations about selling it. I honestly don't think that NCsoft's management is acting as a prudent fiduciary of their shareholder's interests at the moment.

I think Mercedes got us off to a very good start. If she doesn't have a nervous breakdown, I'm hopeful that we actually will win this war, even if NCsoft won the first skirmish by riding in with their gunship and blowing up Home-Tree.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Inkitgee on December 04, 2012, 01:35:12 PM
I took a look at the stocks for myself and I couldn't stop myself from letting out a hearty chuckle.

Welp... all I can say is they did it to themselves.

 8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 04, 2012, 03:10:00 PM
Very nice posts, Undercat. I agree whole-heartedly. There must be incentive for NCSoft to do as we want. If the pain won't stop, there's no incentive.

Given my own academic background, I was particularly amused by the (very accurate) explanation of prisoner's dilemma agents and the best winning strategy in a repeated-games scenario. I've written genetic algorithms that evolve this very behavior pattern as the optimum.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 04, 2012, 03:20:44 PM
"...the numbers are in red."

Heh! November was a dreadful month for them. If December is equally bad, they'll be back where they were in 2007.

Investors and NCSoft are likely asking themselves why. Perhaps they should be asking instead why so many are cheering about it. I believe in the laws of karma, and having so many people justly angry at you is very bad karma. Moving on....

Not to mention, the idea of being sued for libel - individually or as a group - for saying the equivalent of "NCSoft sucks!" would be the very definition of a stupid idea. I am not sure a US judge would even allow this to come to trial - it is the very definition of frivolous lawsuit.

Such a case would get media attention. Given their recent problems, do they need "People say NCSoft sucks! NCSoft strikes back legally! Pictures at eleven!" headlines, even if only online?

What if there were a trial! Enter a lot of evidence to the fact that indeed, NCSoft does "suck."  Even uninterested parties could examine the evidence, leading to a conclusion of "Yup... they really do suck." Reams, and reams and yet more reams of evidence regarding years of craptacular business practices. GENIUS IDEA!

TBH, NCSoft has way bigger fish to fry right now other than trying to legally shut down the internet because disgruntled ex-customers are saying - with justification - that they suck. The smart thing for them to do would be to give us what we want, and make this firestorm of negative PR go away, or at least die down a bit.

I don't think they're going to do that though: its all about saving face. Even if you're already tarred and feathered, we still got to deny reality and try to save nonexistannt face. That's ok, we got plenty more tar and plenty more feathers where those came from. I feel general delight that their stock has sunk yet further.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Nafaustu on December 04, 2012, 03:48:51 PM
Relevant
This game is filled with tl;dr that has nothing to do with cats.   You're about to lose the internet's attention.   Or at the very least, we're slightly off-topic.   I think we had a separate legal doom thread where the greater majority of this was discussed.

Not Relevant
My general option is freedom, in case anyone cares.   If no one fights an outrageous act for fear of retribution then nothing will ever change and we may as well belly up like a terrified, submissive animal and consume all the corporate poo without so much as a glass of water to wash it down.  I'd like to buck that particular social trend in at least one aspect of my life.

Relevant Again
Do we have a general picture of Korea's overall markets today?   I'm not totally convinced Korea isn't crashing in general.   How steep is NCSoft's comparative curve?   I really have no idea how to search for this information; I avoid the stockmarket, in general, like the plague.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 04, 2012, 04:20:19 PM
"There must be incentive for NCSoft to do as we want."

Agreed. Pave your opponent's road to retreat with gold. However, while we could call off the formal campaign, I'm sure a quiet animosity would continue. NCSoft's burned their bridges in the west.

"...it is the very definition of frivolous lawsuit."

I have seen frivolous lawsuits used as a weapon by corporations to harass other corporations into bankruptcy. (A specific example: Marvel vs. Jim Shooter's Defiant Comics.) But we are not a corporation. We are formless, as I said. And trying to sue us from across the Pacific? Good luck with that.

..."we may as well belly up like a terrified, submissive animal and consume all the corporate poo...."

I agree that "learned helplessness" and withdrawal is a danger. This group fills me with hope that together we can teach corporations that they work for us, not the other way 'round.

"Filled with tl;dr..."

I would like to buck that particular social trend.

"Do not underestimate the power of human pettiness and spite."

Indeed. They might spread rumors they'd done so as a tactic to make us give up. I think that would only backfire on them. Just anticipating possible moves and countermoves....
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on December 04, 2012, 05:22:04 PM
"...the numbers are in red."

Heh! November was a dreadful month for them. If December is equally bad, they'll be back where they were in 2007.

Investors and NCSoft are likely asking themselves why.

If December is just as bad in spite of being Holiday Shopping Month....
Any investor who misses THAT red flag is definitely blind.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: zybron on December 04, 2012, 05:23:43 PM
Do we have a general picture of Korea's overall markets today?   I'm not totally convinced Korea isn't crashing in general.   How steep is NCSoft's comparative curve?   I really have no idea how to search for this information; I avoid the stockmarket, in general, like the plague.

This post: http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5250.msg52124.html#msg52124 has a link to both the Korean stock exchange and NCSoft. They are not following a general Korean trend.

Here's a chart with NCSoft and the Korean composite index for direct comparison:
NCSoft and KOSPI (http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=036570.KS+Interactive#symbol=036570.ks;range=20120930,20121203;compare=%5Eks11;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 04, 2012, 05:32:35 PM
Thank you, Zybron.

"If December is just as bad in spite of being Holiday Shopping Month...."

Y'all please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think Christmas is a big deal in Korea. (never mind! Just looked it up. 30%. Hey, that is a significant factor!)

A stagnant Christmas or one more good shock of bad news ought to do it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Iron-Emerald on December 04, 2012, 06:21:04 PM
I can't help but echo what Undercat said. NCSoft have no incentive to ever sell CoH if the same level of negativity was to continue regardless.

For myself I'd forgive them if they helped the game to continue, though I wouldn't forget without some kind of very convincing argument of why the game was closed the way it was. But fundamentally in my experience it's very easy for people to make a mistake, it's almost impossible for some people to ever admit such a thing. If NCSoft actually got the courage to stand up and say "We're sorry, we handled this wrong and we're going to try and do x to at least improve things" then I'd at least gain some respect back for them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 04, 2012, 06:35:23 PM
i think as a collective whole we would mostly desist with the negativity should the IP be sold

however to kind of defend ourselves against the few unicorns and pancakes out there who would want an endless war, we can very clearly stat that "we" (IE, titan network) does not support the actions of those few outliers, since the titan network is basically spearheading the efforts to the save the game

most likely any singular person or group smaller than we are would just be treading water and likely not amount to anything
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 04, 2012, 07:41:05 PM
For myself I'd forgive them if they helped the game to continue, though I wouldn't forget without some kind of very convincing argument of why the game was closed the way it was. But fundamentally in my experience it's very easy for people to make a mistake, it's almost impossible for some people to ever admit such a thing. If NCSoft actually got the courage to stand up and say "We're sorry, we handled this wrong and we're going to try and do x to at least improve things" then I'd at least gain some respect back for them.

Being a Korean company, though, I would expect that they would view an admission like that as being an admission of failure that would need to be accompanied by a high-level manager resigning as expiation for having made the bad decision in the first place (i.e., sacrificing himself to save face for the company), and getting NCSoft into that position feels as if it would be a real stretch; the Western market just isn't that important to them.

Although, I can equally see where, if we did manage to convince Disney to buy CoH, and they were successful in prying it out of their grasp, then turned around and gave it the marketing promotion it needed to become much more successful than it ever was under NCSoft, there'd be just such a resignation by someone taking responsibility for failing the company by making the decision to close the game, rather than support it the way Disney had.


With apologies to Percy Bysshe Shelley, a comforting image to take away:

I met a traveller from a foreign land
Who said: A vast broken facade of stone
Stands in the desert. Near it, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered CEO lies, whose frown,
and wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And below the corporate logo these words appear:
"My name is NCSoft, master of MMOs:
Look upon my ROI, ye competitors, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: pewlagon on December 04, 2012, 11:47:27 PM
Massively just ran an article citing the layoffs ("realignment") of the NcSoft Seattle offices. While it doesn't effect ANet or Carbine, it certainly impacts, to some extent, the portions that oversee games designed outside the US (Aion, Lineage 2, Blade & Soul).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: PartyKake on December 04, 2012, 11:54:05 PM
...
With apologies to Percy Bysshe Shelley, a comforting image to take away:

I met a traveller from a foreign land
Who said: A vast broken facade of stone
Stands in the desert. Near it, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered CEO lies, whose frown,
and wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And below the corporate logo these words appear:
"My name is NCSoft, master of MMOs:
Look upon my ROI, ye competitors, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.


*applause*
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 05, 2012, 12:11:49 AM
As to the subject of positivity toward NCsoft, should they sell...
It's a fact: contented people (and gamers) do not a successful army make.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Opilion on December 05, 2012, 12:39:07 AM
Stocks continue to drop.  NCSoft might hit a new 52 week low today.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on December 05, 2012, 12:47:15 AM
Whoa, it took a dive since the last time I checked today. Trading volume is WAY up today as well.

Methinks news of more downsizing the in the Western market - which has been loudly proclaimed to be an expansion avenue for NCSoft a few times - doesn't bode well.

Victoria's interview in a major Korean newspaper (in the Money section, no less!) might have given investors a thing or two to think about as well.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Arctic Force. on December 05, 2012, 12:48:56 AM
New 52 week low
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Dr Shadow on December 05, 2012, 12:49:29 AM
I do believe that's a free fall.
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 12:49:40 AM
I was gonna post this comment under the Article of Awesomeness thread, but I think it's more appropriate, here:

This makes a sudden influx of cash look more and more inviting! We need a full court press on TF Hail Mary and knock it out of the park.
.
.
.
Hat trick.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 05, 2012, 01:03:49 AM
If they sell? We stop. That's it, in a nut shell. War over, pack your gear, we're all goin' home.


So if they want us to stop, they need to sell. If they never sell, we never stop.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Opilion on December 05, 2012, 01:07:43 AM
An hour in, and down 8%.  Is it wrong to smile?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 05, 2012, 01:12:04 AM
... 7.89% drop?  :o
Looks like somone (or several someones) offloaded around 75000 shares within half an hour of the stock market opening.

Red is my new favorite color.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on December 05, 2012, 01:12:36 AM
I am not smiling, I will full admit to that.

I very much regret that the necessity of our actions will unfortunately harm those with whom we have no quarrel (namely the families of those staff at NCSoft who are now at risk), and I certainly wish that another path had been chosen.

I am not adverse to showing kindness to NCSoft, but that kindness will necessarily be unfathomable ruthless in its execution.

I had hoped this would not have been necessary.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 01:15:02 AM
Someone's text under their dots says, "A leader must be as fair as a hurricane." That applies, here.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 05, 2012, 01:15:47 AM
I am not smiling, I will full admit to that.

I very much regret that the necessity of our actions will unfortunately harm those with whom we have no quarrel (namely the families of those staff at NCSoft who are now at risk), and I certainly wish that another path had been chosen.

I am not adverse to showing kindness to NCSoft, but that kindness will necessarily be unfathomable ruthless in its execution.

I had hoped this would not have been necessary.

A noble sentiment, and I'm certainly not looking down on you for it.

They declared war on us. They destroyed our City. Our Home. Our community, though fighting to stay together is fragmenting without a central nexus to call home. Our lives have been impacted in a tangible way by this.

When I think about all the people who found each other through this game, when I think of the friends and families I met because of this community, and when I think about all the others who will never have the chance to meet those same people...I feel no remorse.

They made their bed, now they can lay in it, collateral damage be damned.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on December 05, 2012, 01:17:14 AM
Exactly.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 05, 2012, 01:28:22 AM
Quite a line of sociopathic thinking there....

This is war. Empathy isn't for soldiers. NCSoft is an enemy combatant, nothing more.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blitzwing on December 05, 2012, 01:30:09 AM
I do believe that's a free fall.
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS

Screw free fall, that's pulling a Thelma & Louise right off the nearest cliff!  O_o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Vasarto on December 05, 2012, 01:31:22 AM
Hmm.  Folks, anyone got an address for Nexxon?  Their big money-maker is Maple Story.  I could make the case CoH functioned rather like Maple Story for many of the players (the RPers specifically) with the rich ability to social-network within the game itself.  We might be able to do a back-door on NCSoft via Nexxon.

Here is the American office  - Pretty sure its acurate - Source = http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/1628009/0/Nexon_Americas_HQ_adress_and_phone_number.html

Nexon America Inc.
Los Angeles CA 90005
213-389-3440

HQ is in Japan somewhere.

http://company.nexon.co.jp/

Might wanna try google translate but it dont help much but it helps a little.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 05, 2012, 01:32:34 AM
Screw free fall, that's pulling a Thelma & Louise right off the nearest cliff!  O_o

At least Thelma and Louise were having fun...  8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 01:32:54 AM
We're not looking for scorched earth, here. If this does mean layoffs, which it most likely does, the first ones to go are not going to be anyone on our shit list. It'll be people like GM_Lloyd or Hitstreak: good people just doing their jobs, not decision makers.

So far, everyone one with whom we've directly interacted with at NCSoft have been good people. It's the heartless barstewards at the top who we hate.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 05, 2012, 01:35:00 AM
Quite a line of sociopathic thinking there....

Vengeful, yes. Short-sighted? Yes. Sociopathic, not necessarily.

That said, I don't support a scorched-earth policy either. I want NCSoft to sell the IP and then go about their business, not to watch their employees get cast to the 4 economic winds like the Paragon crew were.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: houtex on December 05, 2012, 01:38:11 AM
I said it before, if anyone hasn't jumped ship, they deserve their plight.  NCSoft WILL cut off their hands and feet and then the arms and legs to save the head.  Anyone working there at the appropriate appendage level still... well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0WdJx-Wkw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0WdJx-Wkw)

Pretty much.  Time to be looking for something else to do, because that ship is sinking fast at 144k KRW.  It's not if.  It's when they lose their jobs now, so be proactive.

I know it sucks.  I'm not happy about the colateral damage being generated, but it's NOT OUR FAULT.  NCSoft corporate screwed themselves by being stupid, and this is simply BUSINESS.  And not even our business, the business of investing... they are now a bad investment, apparently, because they can't be trusted to run a company correctly.  Simple as that.  CoH is sort of icing on the cake of their bad management, what with the 5 MMOs shut down as well as the Garriott stupidness.

Bail, peons.  Bail as if your life depended on it, because it pretty much does.   That's my take, anyway.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 05, 2012, 01:39:10 AM
Vengeful, yes. Short-sighted? Yes. Sociopathic, not necessarily.

That said, I don't support a scorched-earth policy either. I want NCSoft to sell the IP and then go about their business, not to watch their employees get cast to the 4 economic winds like the Paragon crew were.

That's my ideal outcome, honestly. But until they do sell they are still my enemy, and I refuse to show them any mercy what-so-ever. After all, they showed us none.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: pewlagon on December 05, 2012, 01:39:27 AM
Rerardless of anything, NcSoft needs a good PR spin. The best thing that comes to mind is embracing the CoH's communty's want to have the game back online. It would be a reversal of the negative backlash already affecting them. If they continue to march forward, as they are, then it will be a continued example of the bad practices that have brought them to this low.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 01:41:59 AM
Quite a line of sociopathic thinking there....

Sociopaths have a use.  They can go in do a job that needs to be done that no one else is willing to do.

And they don't care.  8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 05, 2012, 01:44:50 AM
Its the people making the decisions at NCSoft that I have issues with, not the majority of their employees.

Of course so long as companies like Wal-Mart, Monsanto, and pretty much every big-oil business exist, places like NCSoft don't quite inspire the same level of ire in me.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 01:46:35 AM
I'm not advocating mercy, just moderation and strategy.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 05, 2012, 01:55:55 AM
That's my ideal outcome, honestly. But until they do sell they are still my enemy, and I refuse to show them any mercy what-so-ever. After all, they showed us none.

I could live with them showing us no mercy if they'd showed any to Paragon Studios.

How many employees work at the Seattle office? More or less than the 80 that they threw away three months ago?


We need a full court press on TF Hail Mary and knock it out of the park.
.
.
.
Hat trick.

Or to put it another way, we've got 'em against the ropes now, and if we can just line up a hole in one we can launch a piledriver right in their sticky wickets.
.
.
.
Something from curling.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Sajaana on December 05, 2012, 02:18:03 AM
They are rallying from the big, 10% drop early in trading.  They are a little under 8% loss from where they started today.

We need to go get the article to the WSJ or Wired or something.  The recent bad PR here and with the Seattle "restructuring" might be shaking confidence.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Aggelakis on December 05, 2012, 02:29:47 AM
It tanked all the way down to 141kW, but it popped back up a bit to 146kW. Still a -12kW drop from yesterday even after the uptick.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 05, 2012, 02:35:27 AM
I do believe that's a free fall.
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS
And they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Quite a line of sociopathic thinking there...
Sociopathic?  Sociopathic was killing a vital community.  Sociopathic was gutting a development studio that was operating in the black.  Sociopathic was giving aforementioned community bullshit non-answers when asked why.  Sociopathic was laying off even more western employees in the face of a scathing-yet-entirely-deserved onslaught of negative press, all because they can't grow a pair of cojones and admit that they screwed up and go back and make things right!

I have no more sympathy for NCsoft as a company.  The individual base-level employees?  I feel real sorry for them, especially the ones in danger of being laid off.  I really hope they find new jobs as their company folds up.  But for NCsoft's leadership?  Haha, nope.  No sympathy for them at all - they're the ones the suffering little guys should blame.

After all, they're the ones that brought this whole mess down on NCsoft's head.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 05, 2012, 02:36:11 AM
Which is still pretty much a free fall. Any US company that took a dip of $11 in stock over the course of a day would collectively soil themselves and start looking at who to fire for this debacle. Oh. Wait.

/me eyes NCSoft's Seattle office with a sad, knowing gaze.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: PartyKake on December 05, 2012, 02:42:54 AM
And I guess that you don't give 2 hoots about how Beastyle was doing? Guess you weren't worried about putting him out of a job.

Yeah, as i said, nice line of sociopathic thinking....

And i thought we were *better* than this. But honestly not giving 2 hoots about the fact that you could well be directly responsible for making people unemployed doesn't even bother you? Guess that means that you are truly a sociopath.

Did you weep for the independent contractors who were still working at their posts on the second Death Star?

Didn't think so.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 05, 2012, 02:47:20 AM
And I guess that you don't give 2 hoots about how Beastyle was doing? Guess you weren't worried about putting him out of a job.

Yeah, as i said, nice line of sociopathic thinking....
We weren't the one who put Beastyle out of a job.  NCsoft did.  They could've done numerous things prior to now to avoid having to lay off anyone, let alone Beastyle.  But they didn't, and what's worse, they didn't even give us a genuine, believable reason as to why.

Don't blame us for NCsoft's dumb decisions, please.  I respect you too much to believe you'd stoop that low.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 02:49:51 AM
Beastyle isn't out of a job. Yet.

And, considering the OSHA compliance on the Death Star, getting blown up was the least of their problems. Seriously, have the people in that galaxy even heard of a railing?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 02:52:12 AM
Beastyle isn't out of a job. Yet.

And, considering the OSHA compliance on the Death Star, getting blown up was the least of their problems. Seriously, have the people in that galaxy even heard of a railing?


People in that universe know better than to walk too close to a 30km drop. ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 02:57:45 AM
Or the edge of space, or the tube the planet destroying death-laser shoots out of...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 03:00:18 AM
Their latte's also don't carry the warning 'This beverage is hot, don't be an idiot and spill it in your lap'.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: PartyKake on December 05, 2012, 03:03:03 AM
That just gave me the hilarious image of Darth Vader sans mask, advertising the dangers of hot beverages not in their proper containers.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on December 05, 2012, 03:11:21 AM
People in that universe know better than to walk too close to a 30km drop. ;)
Fortunately the Gungans don't come over to visit very often.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 05, 2012, 03:13:36 AM
Fortunately the Gungans don't come over to visit very often.

Maybe Gungans are exactly the reason why there's no railings. For the lulz.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 03:16:04 AM
Fortunately the Gungans don't come over to visit very often.

I suspect that's the exact reason there ARE no Gungans in the future.  ;D

*Edit:  of that universe.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 03:26:32 AM
<ahem>

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/Opening_crawl.jpg

Not the future.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Opilion on December 05, 2012, 03:34:04 AM
I read Fulcrum's post as referring to Star Wars' future;  that is, episodes 4-6.

Halfway through the trading day and NCsoft is down 7% whilst KOSPI is up .6%.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 03:40:21 AM
I read Fulcrum's post as referring to Star Wars' future;  that is, episodes 4-6.


You.. win an internet!   ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Opilion on December 05, 2012, 03:42:03 AM
Yay!  My first internet!  I'll cherish it always.  ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on December 05, 2012, 04:37:14 AM
The star wars derail in this thread gave me my biggest lol of the day.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 05, 2012, 04:55:35 AM
Just looked over today's stocks.

Is that the Korean article doing that? 'Cause that right there is what we 'round here call a faceplant! Yippie ki-yay, m___ ___s!

Since the Unity rally, their stock has been cut in half.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on December 05, 2012, 04:58:13 AM
Just looked over today's stocks.

Is that the Korean article doing that? 'Cause that right there is what we 'round here call a faceplant! Yippie ki-yay, m___ ___s!

I imagine it helped, but the "realignment" of NCSoft West was also a huge factor.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 05, 2012, 05:05:55 AM
I personally do not want anyone to lose their jobs.  Except Kim and his wife.

I hope ArenaNet can buy their firm back and have everyone keep his or her job.

I want someone to buy City that will treat it and the studio properly.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 05:07:32 AM
I personally do not want anyone to lose their jobs.  Except Kim and his wife.

I hope ArenaNet can buy their firm back and have everyone keep his or her job.

I want someone to buy City that will treat it and the studio properly.

*looks up from where he was welding supports to a lawn-chair with multiple rings for the myriad balloons*

Does this mean we'll have to delay your flight, VV? ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: mikoroshi on December 05, 2012, 05:09:47 AM
*looks up from where he was welding supports to a lawn-chair with multiple rings for the myriad balloons*

Does this mean we'll have to delay your flight, VV? ;)

All I can picture is that series of strips in Bloom County where they tried to send Cutter John into space and Opus got stuck on the wheelchair:
(https://lh3.ggpht.com/-krTwcOOl7CM/T4eQBZLbo7I/AAAAAAAABAw/wDG3cRFdjLw/s1600/bloom+county_balloon+ride.gif)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 05, 2012, 05:12:03 AM
This is not going to make for happy stockholders, who will be looking for ANY way to make money and will ruthlessly shitcan anyone that gets in the way.

Garriott might be able to buy back Tabula Rasa, the Auto Assault guys might get THEIR game back
Who knows, the whole vault might get emptied.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 05:13:39 AM
Wow, that would be a great turnabout...    Even better if we were the direct result of it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 05, 2012, 05:14:12 AM
You know... the lawnchair balloon notion just gave me an insane campaign idea.

How about we do the weather balloon thing, and launch Statesman to the edge of space with a "SaveCoH" ribbon, or a message for Disney attached to him?

Those amateur space videos get TONS of youtube hits.

Dunno, maybe I really AM drunk, but that seems like it'd be a blast even just to try.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Opilion on December 05, 2012, 05:25:26 AM
I'm tired, so I may be wrong, but a 12,000 won drop (so far) at 21.9 million shares seems to work out to about a $232 million loss today.  That had to have raised some eyebrows.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 05, 2012, 06:18:21 AM
A few hours later with a more level head, and I'm realizing how right you guys are about not wanting other employees to lose their jobs. "Two wrongs don't make a right" and all that. My apologies to the people whose livelihoods are at risk with this company.

Oh and if it did end up making them clear out the whole closet, and maybe Dungeon Runners could get up and running again somehow, well that would be a pretty good thing too. It's been a while since I've worn my Corrugated Cardboard Epaulets of the Prostrated Rhinoceros into battle. They've probably gotten rusty. Or... soggy. :o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 05, 2012, 09:12:00 AM
Blueside:
You want us to play your newer games, NCSoft?
Well, you can forget it. We're done, tired of the shitty way you treat your customers. You want our business? You can't have it.
But we did you a big favor - we brought you plenty of media attention!  ;D

Redside:
Like all guilty men, you try to rewrite your history, to forget all the worlds and beings the NCSoft Corporation has destroyed.
If we could show the corporation's true face, customers will cease to believe in it. There will be blood in the water, and the sharks will come. All we have to do is sit back and watch as your own shareholders consume you.   8)

... yes, Iron Man 2 is awesome. But that's besides the point.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 05, 2012, 10:12:54 AM
Excuse me while I indulge in my oft neglected redside....

"COME!!! LAUGH WITH ME!!! MUA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!"

"We'll show them! We'll show them ALL! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

(Can you tell my favorite redside arc was Vernon Von Grun? ^_^)

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: johnrobey on December 05, 2012, 10:22:31 AM
Excuse me while I indulge in my oft neglected redside....

"COME!!! LAUGH WITH ME!!! MUA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!"

"We'll show them! We'll show them ALL! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

(Can you tell my favorite redside arc was Vernon Von Grun? ^_^)

Ok, I'll laugh with you:   :D BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I wonder whether NCSoft is still as confident as they once claimed that they'd not regret their decision to close City of Heroes.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Ammon on December 05, 2012, 01:03:17 PM
I almost feel sorry for Nexon.  Its like they paid for their 15% stake in NCsoft twice.  First by buying them for almost $700 million, and then by seeing their value decrease by a truly humongous amount since that time in June...  There's more than a little irony in the fact that at first, eyebrows were raised that they were bought at under the market value, but no you can see that they massively overpaid what those shares are worth today. :D

The CEO of NCsoft is almost certainly not the only CEO under increasing scrutiny and question over this whole debacle.  It would be very hard for the CEO of Nexon to now justify his decision which partly caused this whole mess, which currently can only look a lot like throwing away a not inconsiderable amount of Nexon's money.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 05, 2012, 01:31:17 PM
I almost feel sorry for Nexon.  Its like they paid for their 15% stake in NCsoft twice.  First by buying them for almost $700 million, and then by seeing their value decrease by a truly humongous amount since that time in June...  There's more than a little irony in the fact that at first, eyebrows were raised that they were bought at under the market value, but no you can see that they massively overpaid what those shares are worth today. :D

Looks like doing business with NCSoft lately ends up costing people a lot more than they thought it would.  >.>
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on December 05, 2012, 03:23:12 PM
Excuse me while I indulge in my oft neglected redside....

"COME!!! LAUGH WITH ME!!! MUA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!"

"We'll show them! We'll show them ALL! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

(Can you tell my favorite redside arc was Vernon Von Grun? ^_^)
*hands you a celebratory vial of bees*
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blitzwing on December 05, 2012, 03:28:48 PM
That gives me an idea....

Hey, Tony, how about making a sticky link to their stock-watch(and locking it), so we can watch the ongoing faceplant?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lily Barclay on December 05, 2012, 03:38:58 PM
That gives me an idea....

Hey, Tony, how about making a sticky link to their stock-watch(and locking it), so we can watch the ongoing faceplant?

Our instead of inflating the amount of stickies, you could just favorite it in your browser like I did. 8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Copper Cockroach on December 05, 2012, 03:41:50 PM
How about we do the weather balloon thing, and launch Statesman to the edge of space with a "SaveCoH" ribbon, or a message for Disney attached to him?

Get off Emmert's back, all that nerfing was, like, a million years ago! Sheesh, let it go alrea... oh wait, you mean a mannequin dressed up as the character Statesman? Never mind!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 03:43:51 PM
Get off Emmert's back, all that nerfing was, like, a million years ago! Sheesh, let it go alrea... oh wait, you mean a mannequin dressed up as the character Statesman? Never mind!


...  Wait, can't we just do both? ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Yoru-hime on December 05, 2012, 03:52:38 PM
Mannequin?  ???

...

Oh! MANNEQUIN!  Of COURSE that's what we were doing. Haha haha... :D

On an utterly unrelated and completely not illegal note, does anyone know if you can get refunds on tranquilizer darts?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Frostyfrozen on December 05, 2012, 03:54:43 PM
So does anyone know or Looked in to Toon Town Player numbers its a year older then CoH & Disney still has that going. And I do remember seeing some Saturday morning commericals for it a year ago.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 04:25:14 PM
Actually, kids are sending Lego people to the edge of space with a camera for around $300 US. If we could get a Captain America action figure mocked up like States, it's eminently doable.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Nafaustu on December 05, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
*post removed due to Titan Network refusing to delete posts at users request, and not deleting user account*

Did cmgangrel pick up his internets and go home?  :(   We need that guy, he keeps us grounded.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 05, 2012, 04:28:25 PM
Yeah, I'm baffled by all the post-removals with that same message. I hadn't seen any drama that I know of, but I do know that it's possible to have tons of it without most people ever noticing.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Opilion on December 05, 2012, 04:32:19 PM
Something went down with cmgangrel in this thread:

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6967.0.html (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6967.0.html)

Beyond that, I couldn't say.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Minotaur on December 05, 2012, 04:36:34 PM
Yeah, I'm baffled by all the post-removals with that same message. I hadn't seen any drama that I know of, but I do know that it's possible to have tons of it without most people ever noticing.

Yes there was drama, and I haven't got to the bottom of what it was, and as Nafaustu said, Gangrel is a very useful person to have aboard. I met him at the EU player meet (which he co-organised with his GF) and he is well connected, well informed and his views are usually pretty accurate.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 05, 2012, 04:42:40 PM
*hands you a celebratory vial of bees*

Can I toss them at Taek Jin Kim? I'd love to see his impression of Nick Cage. :D

"NO NO! NOT THE BEES!! AHHHHHH!!!"



Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ohms on December 05, 2012, 04:48:02 PM
Did cmgangrel pick up his internets and go home?  :(   We need that guy, he keeps us grounded.

Yup, threw his toys out of the pram.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 05, 2012, 06:51:42 PM
Something went down with cmgangrel in this thread:

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6967.0.html (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6967.0.html)

Beyond that, I couldn't say.

Another departure without a resignation/grievance post?

*sigh*

How can the problem be corrected, if it isn't pointed out?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 05, 2012, 06:53:31 PM
"Yes, there was drama."

I know nothing about this. I've crossed paths with the arbiters here for... call 'em comments made in the heat of the moment. I've found them fair and reasonable. They do a necessary job and deserve our support. Let's hope the Gangrel will cool off and come back soon.

"Can you tell my favorite redside arc was Vernon Von Grun?"

When CoH comes back up, join me in AE, and I'll show you what Von Grun's been up to since. Egad, how I love mad science!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 05, 2012, 06:55:21 PM
The way I see it, whatever happened with Gangrel, in the end, isn't even our business anymore. It's between the moderators and him, what with all the posts being gone. We can't bring this up in every thread.

In other news, looks like NC's stock isn't recovering from that nosedive last night. I wish we could have a hidden camera in their offices to see what's being discussed right now.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 05, 2012, 06:58:17 PM
In other news, looks like NC's stock isn't recovering from that nosedive last night. I wish we could have a hidden camera in their offices to see what's being discussed right now.
I would settle for a hidden speaker in Taek Jim Kim's office, some voice modulation software, and a Korean translator.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 05, 2012, 07:01:29 PM
I would settle for a hidden speaker in Taek Jim Kim's office, some voice modulation software, and a Korean translator.

I would settle for a hidden dead fish in Taek Jim Kim's office.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Nafaustu on December 05, 2012, 07:04:46 PM
I realize this may be slightly counter to what we're trying to accomplish, but we are dealing with American jobs here.

Me?   I'm a nobody, i've got no connections in the industry.  My marketing degree is rusty and I haven't had to write a resume in at least two years.

That being said, is there anything we can do to help all these people who are getting re-aligned out of their jobs?   I can't think of anything directly, but all of us are much more clever and capable and clever then just me.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: johnrobey on December 05, 2012, 07:07:36 PM
I would settle for a hidden dead fish in Taek Jim Kim's office.

ROFL!!!!!! ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 05, 2012, 07:09:11 PM
Consider this, Nafaustu. Last I heard, about 60/80 of Paragon Studios were reemployed. If these people that same level of talent and resolve, I think they'll be just fine. I hope it's the case, the idea of anyone being unemployed in the holiday season, especially if they have a family, just breaks my heart.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Minotaur on December 05, 2012, 07:13:14 PM
Consider this, Nafaustu. Last I heard, about 60/80 of Paragon Studios were reemployed. If these people that same level of talent and resolve, I think they'll be just fine. I hope it's the case, the idea of anyone being unemployed in the holiday season, especially if they have a family, just breaks my heart.

I don't think it was the Paragon people he meant, the redundancies at NCSoft were something more recent and different, Seattle ?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 05, 2012, 07:14:13 PM
No, yeah. He was talking about the Seattle guys, not Paragon. What I was doing was using Paragon as a reference for how quick some of these ladies and gentlemen can find work again. Sorry for that mix up.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Nafaustu on December 05, 2012, 07:32:00 PM
No, yeah. He was talking about the Seattle guys, not Paragon. What I was doing was using Paragon as a reference for how quick some of these ladies and gentlemen can find work again. Sorry for that mix up.

I got you.   I just feel so...helpless.   And I hate advancement through the misfortune of others.   So as pleased as I am the stock is reflecting poor corporate decision-making, I feel bad for all the little people that are also getting hurt by it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 05, 2012, 07:37:00 PM
I admit, I feel torn as well. When I first heard the news, I snickered and actually said "Good" aloud, because of what it represents. It didn't take long for me to realize that this is just NCSoft doing what they do best. Scapegoating foreigners to make up for their own losses and misfortune. And that these are people, hard working people no doubt, now suddenly jobless in the end of the year.

I really do wish NCSoft would just pack their things and get out of the western market all together. (But not before selling their IPs, hopefully.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 05, 2012, 08:04:30 PM
I appreciate your generous spirit, Perfidus. It speaks very well of you. You too, Nafaustu.

NCSoft could have avoided all this by simply saying, "look, we're moving out of the West. Business stuff. We're putting the City up for sale. Y'all have been great and we hope someone else picks the game up." There would have been no hard feelings at all. But nooooo! No, they gotta try an' destroy it.

So as for the rank and file... sleep with dogs, you will get fleas. The good folks at Paragon have already found that out to their discomfort.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 05, 2012, 08:05:45 PM
I'm going to paraphrase something I said earlier.

It's NCsoft's fault that their employees are losing jobs, not us.  It was their poor decisions that led to their stock falling.  It was their poor decisions that led to CoH's closing.  It was their poor decisions that led to Paragon Studios being gutted.  Maybe we've hastened things along some, maybe we enjoy the schadenfreude of watching NCsoft suffer.  But we are not to blame for the consequences of their actions.

Had we simply BOHICA* when the closure was announced, Paragon Studios would've still been closed.  NCsoft would still be pulling out of the United States.  It would just be slower and more protracted, with all the underhanded BS involved quietly swept under a rug instead of being pointed out loudly by us.  Workers would still be laid off left and right - NCsoft just would be dealing with a lot less negative press about it.

I'll say it again: actual events would not change.  The only thing we've done so far is point out what is happening.  All of the harm that has been done is NCsoft's doing, and theirs alone - we've just made sure that NC can't count on people ignoring the problem.

It's okay to feel sympathy for laid-off NCsoft employees, especially refugees of Paragon Studios.  I wouldn't want to see anyone lose their job.  But the fact of the matter is, jobs are going to be lost as NCsoft flounders, and they're going to cut American jobs first because those jobs are the least valuable to NCsoft, from the standpoint of NC's leadership.  Until NC's leadership changes their attitude towards Americans, American-made MMOs, and American-run development houses, that's not going to change, and there's nothing really we can do except pressure them to change.

Or pressure them into the ground, whichever comes first.  Given their obstinacy, and their tanking stock price, the latter seems more realistic.

My advice to any non-Korean NCsoft employee - your job security is in very real peril.  If you haven't been laid off yet, it's a matter of months at most.  Start jobhunting now, and bail the minute you get something halfway decent, or as soon as you legally can if you're under contract.  We don't want to see you suffer due to the stupidity of NCsoft.

*Bend Over, Here It Comes Again
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 05, 2012, 08:10:11 PM
Thank you, Colette.

I don't disagree with you, Kaiser. It's acceptable to hate NCSoft and feel glad about their misfortune, but still feel empathy for those whose lives are being negatively affected in the process. That's where I'm at right now, and I agree with the poster (maybe you?) who said those remaining in western NCSoft offices ought to look hard at themselves and what's going on around them. They need an exit strategy.

I'll never understand why Synapse would sign up again to stay with an NCSoft subsidiary. But then, I don't have a family. I have no one to care for but me. I understand he has bills to pay, a family to feed, and a life to live. But I can't be expected to know what it's like.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 05, 2012, 08:19:50 PM
"...actual events would not change.  The only thing we've done so far is point out what is happening...."

Little disingenuous, Kaiser, forgive me.

Look over the memes section. We're actively engaging in a campaign to make NCSoft look bad. I personally made an image comparing NC's management to vampires, not to mention that "NCSoftcore" line. We're cheering their stock plummet. Granted, we were provoked, but we need to own up to that, and accept the moral responsibility for it.

For one thing, accepting moral responsibility and reflecting on our actions is a large share of what separates us from them, and keeps us "blueside." I applaud Perfidus' reflection, while urging us all to accept the costs and continue.

(Aside: I just realized one of the things I love most about the superhero genre: staying "blueside" is part of one's identity and character, and there are clear and unmuddied limits. You're obligated to choose your side every single day. What a healthy and useful ethical lesson to teach people!)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Enson Red Shirt on December 05, 2012, 08:39:36 PM
don't just watch the stock trade it :) when it nose dives buy a bunch when it start to recover sell to the bid that panicks people and they sell too also if you own many shares and dump alot fast you trigger automated HFT systems and can cause a stock havock i have been trading theis stock since the closure anouncement and i just sold 18,000,000 shares in another company to free up more capital you folks keep up the good no make that great work in telling the world about ncsofts wrong unethical doings and i'll keep ruining their stock individuals and non koreans make up about 70%
of their shareholder base i may be a Red shirt here but i am Doctor Evil everywhere else www.evilincorporated.us
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on December 05, 2012, 08:44:23 PM
Making NCSoft look bad when they make boneheaded decisions isn't necessarily "bad."

1) Raising a mirror to the ugly isn't wrong. 
2) It serves as a lesson for others.  If the public spectacle of a floundering NCSoft public opinion gives other companies pause and causes them to more carefully weigh their options, then we may prevent this spectacle in the future.
3) Many of us had made clear that we would laud their merits should they come to a community-minded resolution.  With a little maneuvering and some support from us, they can easily ride the wave of celebration if the game were rescued.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 05, 2012, 08:50:06 PM
Little disingenuous, Kaiser, forgive me.

Look over the memes section. We're actively engaging in a campaign to make NCSoft look bad. I personally made an image comparing NC's management to vampires, not to mention that "NCSoftcore" line. We're cheering their stock plummet. Granted, we were provoked, but we need to own up to that, and accept the moral responsibility for it.

For one thing, accepting moral responsibility and moral reflection is a large share of what separates us from them. I applaud Perfidus' reflection, while urging us all to accept the costs and continue.
I can understand the point you're trying to make.  Yes, we are deliberately engaged in the creation of anti-NCsoft memes and cheering as NCsoft tanks.  I mentioned the latter outright.

But I gotta ask - would any of those memes or images even exist, had NCsoft not given them reason to? Meme images get generated for virtually everything - what we're doing is no more evil than, say, a political cartoon in your morning newspaper.  Furthermore, how much damage have they actually done?  Has our negative press campaign been directly attributable to the loss of someone's job yet?

This is why I say actual events would not change.  Eliminate the folks (including myself) watching NCsoft's stock like a vulture.  Eliminate the meme campaign.  Eliminate all the negative press thus far that we've produced.  There still exists a ton of really stupid business decisions that NCsoft has made, and that other outlets have reported on, that would lead to their stock price tanking.  NCsoft's apparent goal is to pull back from western markets - everyone who has been fired would probably still have been fired.

I will admit, there is hate here for NCsoft - but when asked, most people will agree that the hate doesn't extend to NCsoft's ground level employees.  Only its leadership (or more correctly, their high-ranking employees demonstrating a startling lack thereof).  Yes, NCsoft tanking as a company will harm the people employed by that company, but that's something we can't help.  Maybe we should launch a campaign offering to help laid-off NC employees find new jobs in their area?

I say that if NCsoft doesn't want bad press, they should stop giving people reasons to make bad press.  Common wisdom says that you don't kick a hornet's nest unless you're comfortable with the idea of being swarmed afterward.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: SARobb on December 05, 2012, 09:00:22 PM
Common wisdom says that you don't kick a hornet's nest unless you're comfortable with the idea of being swarmed afterward.

Or if you have a 1988 Chevrolet Luv truck to dive into the second one of those little buggers shows it's face... just sayin'  ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on December 05, 2012, 09:21:02 PM
Ok, I'm not really a stock-person, so maybe some people can enlighten me:

Some people here have pointed to the big stack of money NCSoft is sitting on to suggest that their market capitalization decline doesn't matter much.  To me, that would indicate a even bigger problem.

Gross simplification here, but it seems like Market capitalization is the perceived 'worth' of a company.  That includes the value of all currently held assets plus the value of potential future earnings.  If you're sitting on a pile of assets and you're declining in value, then people are losing confidence in your ability to bring in future earnings.

To me, the "hitting rock bottom" isn't a stock value hitting "0" in this case, but somewhere around  ~53,000w.  Around that point, the market valuation would be close to parity with the assets I've heard it said that they're sitting on.  If it dipped below that, it'd be more profitable to cut up the company and sell off its assets.  You know its worth at least that much, after all.

So, if you went from a 52-week high of 328,500 and now sit at 141,000, then you've lost close to 2/3 of the value that's attributed to future potential...

Am I missing something here?

(rough numbers on the back of a napkin and never invested anything here, so please help if I'm missing something here..


Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: mikoroshi on December 05, 2012, 09:43:08 PM
I believe someone pointed out that the numbers you're seeing don't mean much until you multiply them by the number of stocks that exist in NCSoft.  Overall, since around the time they announced the shuttering of Paragon and CoH, investors lost a total of ~$232,000,000  (I am terrible at math, someone please correct me).

If this happened to an American company, people would be buying new underwear.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on December 05, 2012, 09:54:32 PM
I believe someone pointed out that the numbers you're seeing don't mean much until you multiply them by the number of stocks that exist in NCSoft.  Overall, since around the time they announced the shuttering of Paragon and CoH, investors lost a total of ~$232,000,000  (I am terrible at math, someone please correct me).

If this happened to an American company, people would be buying new underwear.

I know- tried to account for that.

my estimate of 53,000 won for the "bottom" share value  was taken by taking the won value of the assets they're sitting on that people were reporting and dividing by the total number of available shares out there.   Essentially a "if we shut down, cashed out everything and just paid the shareholders, what would each share be worth?"

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 09:59:28 PM
While I can understand the Machiavellian appeal of buying up NCSoftcore stock at a low point, I cannot in good conscience contribute to this. Whatever the motivation, whatever the intended outcome, we would be investing in NCSoftcore, however temporarily. In fact, my future purchase of anything with their name attached to it is fully dependent on, not their sale of the CoH IP and related pieces, but how they handle it. I can't really even tell you specifically what I would have to see from them that would assuage the bad feelings they have created in their handling of the situation, so far.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 05, 2012, 10:03:56 PM
While I can understand the Machiavellian appeal of buying up NCSoftcore stock at a low point, I cannot in good conscience contribute to this. Whatever the motivation, whatever the intended outcome, we would be investing in NCSoftcore, however temporarily. In fact, my future purchase of anything with their name attached to it is fully dependent on, not their sale of the CoH IP and related pieces, but how they handle it. I can't really even tell you specifically what I would have to see from them that would assuage the bad feelings they have created in their handling of the situation, so far.

agreed with this

the amount needed to buy up a large enough amount of stock in ncsoft to force them to sell the IP would be too much for crowdsourcing

what we need is for them to actually sell the IP and then we can crowdsource to help buy it out of ncsofts hands then we will wash our hands of ncsoft for good
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on December 05, 2012, 10:21:23 PM
While I can understand the Machiavellian appeal of buying up NCSoftcore stock at a low point, I cannot in good conscience contribute to this. Whatever the motivation, whatever the intended outcome, we would be investing in NCSoftcore, however temporarily. In fact, my future purchase of anything with their name attached to it is fully dependent on, not their sale of the CoH IP and related pieces, but how they handle it. I can't really even tell you specifically what I would have to see from them that would assuage the bad feelings they have created in their handling of the situation, so far.

Which assets are you looking at, just fixed, or are you counting cash equivalents and the like?

The reason I ask is that their last yearly report indicated that a substantial chunk of their short term assets was their own stock. I know they've sold some it it since then in order to fund some acquisitions, so it's less than it was, but still might account for part if it -- the value of which would now be lower of course.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 05, 2012, 10:31:54 PM
Which assets are you looking at, just fixed, or are you counting cash equivalents and the like?

The reason I ask is that their last yearly report indicated that a substantial chunk of their short term assets was their own stock. I know they've sold some it it since then in order to fund some acquisitions, so it's less than it was, but still might account for part if it -- the value of which would now be lower of course.

I'm not sure what you mean, here, but my knowledge of any of that stuff is pretty limited. I was just addressing the idea (that seems to pop up on about ever other page of this thread) that we, either as a crowdfund or as individuals, buy up a bunch of their stock.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kosmos on December 05, 2012, 10:42:38 PM
I believe someone pointed out that the numbers you're seeing don't mean much until you multiply them by the number of stocks that exist in NCSoft.  Overall, since around the time they announced the shuttering of Paragon and CoH, investors lost a total of ~$232,000,000  (I am terrible at math, someone please correct me).

I see NCsoftcore stock cratered again today, down more than 7% due to an all out free-fall in morning trading. So just this morning alone NCsoftcore investors lost an aggregate $220M. And the market cap of the company has now dropped under $3B. Let's just do this quickly with estimates (I'm not looking up the exact ecxhange rates, stock prices and market shares, but just going off easily acquired summary data)...

Mkt Cap on Sept 1 ~= 21.9 million shares outstanding * 0.28M Won/share * $881/million Won = $5.4B
Mkt Cap on Dec 5 ~= 21.9 million shares outstanding * 0.147M Won/share * $924/million Won = $3.0B

So, the investors have been losing an average of about $25M/day since Sept 1. Good thing for Mr. Kim that he sold most of his stake to Nexon for $685M. I wonder how much of that was in Nexon stock though. They haven't been doing well either; having dropped about 45% since early August (most of that drop was in mid Aug).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 06, 2012, 12:14:53 AM
"...would any of those memes or images even exist, had NCsoft not given them reason to?"

Just so, Kaiser. I believe we are taking the right actions, but let us also follow the good example of Nafaustu and Perfidus, and be mindful of the consequences of those actions.

Is that "red shirt" guy who doesn't believe in periods for real? I'm kinda smellin' horned horse.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Opilion on December 06, 2012, 12:35:13 AM
A bit of a rally thus far.  I suspect shares will climb back up to around the 151,000 won mark today (+/- 1000).......  still below their previous 52 week low.

NOTE:  I am not an analyst.  Don't go out and buy shares based on my prediction.  :P

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 06, 2012, 01:55:28 AM
The nose diving has begun! As of this posting, down -2500 won and still free falling.

That loud whistling "ERRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW" sound you hear is their stock prices--and investor faith--plummeting to terra firma.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JWBullfrog on December 06, 2012, 01:56:20 AM
I am reminded of a certain famous coyote...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Vasarto on December 06, 2012, 04:14:09 AM
seems like it fell below another $100,000 from yesterday. I am not sure if I read the review right but could this daily decline be a indication of what is happening to them through coincidence or through all of us?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 04:17:07 AM
I don't want to say we're solely responsible but I bet we're at least partly so.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: General Idiot on December 06, 2012, 06:13:29 AM
One more straw on the back of that camel, at least. I highly doubt we're the one that broke it, but we're still there.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 06, 2012, 07:07:38 AM
I am reminded of a certain famous coyote...
Coincidentally, I am too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq_bjaI0NTo).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: emu265 on December 06, 2012, 07:15:13 AM
I don't want to say we're solely responsible but I bet we're at least partly so.
It'd be egotistical to assume full responsibility.  But it'd be ignorant to assume we've got nothing to do with it ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 07:23:00 AM
Hence my tempered response! I like to think I'm a balanced individual. I hope.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: emu265 on December 06, 2012, 07:29:54 AM
Hence my tempered response! I like to think I'm a balanced individual. I hope.
Of course. I just had to say something because I'm procrastinating.  And apparently stalking you today.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 07:32:14 AM
There are worse fates than being stalked by an emu. I'm flattered, even though I know it's happenstance. <3
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 06, 2012, 07:46:32 AM
I know- tried to account for that.

my estimate of 53,000 won for the "bottom" share value  was taken by taking the won value of the assets they're sitting on that people were reporting and dividing by the total number of available shares out there.   Essentially a "if we shut down, cashed out everything and just paid the shareholders, what would each share be worth?"
That's traditionally called Book Value.  However if you a believer in PEG ratios, the Price/Earnings/Earnings Growth, a "fair" price would be around 88,000 give or take.

Let's face it, the run up to 375,000 was very unwarranted.  The fundamentals simply didn't reflect the numbers required for that value.  I considered the slide that started in early October of 2011 as sanity/sobering up/getting clean/what stays in Vegas momment of investors that hopped on the NCSoft stairway to heaven now realizing that a P/E ration of 70 isn't a good thing when the company's trailing twelve months of earnings are now going down.  That plus the perceived delay in both GW2 and B&S that were suppose to be another Aion miracle in sales simply screamed SELL.  Then when the actual 3Q 2012 numbers were released about a month ago and showed that there wasn't another Aion sales growth miracle, the selling started all over again but this time the volume of shares traded was HUGE, over 10 times normal.

So now the stock is off over 60% from it's high and 33% since the 3Q numbers were released.  And I do believe that the article in The Korea Times kicked the stock back into a decline.  However, it's still hasn't broken it's 3 year low.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 06, 2012, 07:54:11 AM
And while I'm here, Market Cap loss is meaningless unless you bought at the peak and are still sitting on the stock for the past 14 months hoping that the decline was irrational, rather than the run up from 55,000 to 375,000 in 34 months.

Reminds me of the home sales boom and bust cycle, both this last one and the one in the mid to late 1980s.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 06, 2012, 07:59:12 AM
it looks like the stocks still on the decline although much slower than yesterday immediately post article release

still, if you saw the companys stock you invested in drop nearly 10% in 2 days, something would definitely be wrong

if the stock continues on this trend of decline then ncsoft will eventually be very limited in what options it could do to potentially reclaim some of its investors trust
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 06, 2012, 08:17:50 AM
But at some point the analysts will say it reached a fair value based on it's fundamentals, it's sector and compared to it's direct competitors.  Remember for every seller there's a buyer and if there isn't there isn't a sale and the price doesn't move.

There are two types of "people" who play the market, investors who buy for the long term or traders who try to make money based on short term swings in price.  Heck Apple is down 7.5% over the last week, 23% from it's peak like ten or so weeks ago.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: johnrobey on December 06, 2012, 12:36:12 PM
I may get flamed for this, but I don't particularly wish NCSoft ill or hope they go out of business.  I know many feel otherwise.  While I don't like their decision to sunset City of Heroes (nor understand their reasons for it), what's bothered me most has been the emotional impact felt by so many.  I want to see City of Heroes back, along with the dev team of Paragon Studios.  I'm still hoping NCSoft will sell the rights to City of Heroes, whether it be to Disney or any other company who can act as a worthy custodian for it. If that means NCSoft has to go out of business first, well okay.  I don't presently plan to subscribe to or purchase anything from them anytime soon.  Apart from my feelings as a fan of CoH, I don't like how they treated us as customers, basically stonewalling and ignoring us and others.  Hopping on board Boycott NCSoft is no problem for me since they aren't offering any products or services I want.  I'm still hoping for a swift rez for CoH, and otherwise still commited to what consumer actions we as fans can take to help bring about its restoration.  Thanks for letting me say my piece. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 06, 2012, 12:52:31 PM
While I can understand the Machiavellian appeal of buying up NCSoftcore stock at a low point, I cannot in good conscience contribute to this. Whatever the motivation, whatever the intended outcome, we would be investing in NCSoftcore, however temporarily. In fact, my future purchase of anything with their name attached to it is fully dependent on, not their sale of the CoH IP and related pieces, but how they handle it. I can't really even tell you specifically what I would have to see from them that would assuage the bad feelings they have created in their handling of the situation, so far.
Well, one thing you could do if you wanted and were confident the price would keep going down: short sell the stock.

It pushes the price down, and you only "invest" in it at less than the amount for which you sold it. Whereas the ideal with normal stock trading is to buy at a nadir, hold on to it, and sell at a peak, the ideal with short-selling is to sell stocks you haven't bought yet at a peak, and then cover the sale later at a nadir. "Short-covering" is what the second step is called.

A short sale is actually a promise TO sell the stock to somebody at a given price. You have to give them what you promised by a certain time, but you can buy the stocks to cover the sale at any time before then.

Shot selling has the tendency to drive the price down just as buying has the tendency to drive it up. But there's no real market manipulation going on here if you start short-selling it right now. With it in freefall, many investors are likely doing similar as they are riding the trend.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 06, 2012, 12:58:28 PM
Right now it looks like the stock is being bunny-hopped between computerized automatic stock orders now that it's hit a certain threshold as they try to maintain it's value...   the synchronicity of the last few hours is pretty impressive. 


I can honestly say that if I owned stock in this company, I'd have to use a crowbar to keep my rump from eating the seat below me.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 06, 2012, 01:07:18 PM
Right now it looks like the stock is being bunny-hopped between computerized automatic stock orders now that it's hit a certain threshold as they try to maintain it's value...   


I've never seriously followed stocks before. Could you explain how you can tell that's what's happening? I just want to understand. Thanks.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 06, 2012, 01:24:16 PM

I've never seriously followed stocks before. Could you explain how you can tell that's what's happening? I just want to understand. Thanks.
This is only a guess, but from what he said, it sounds like he's saying somebody is setting up computerized automatic stock orders to sell and buy at a specific price. This would only work without losing money if the sold stocks were being bought preferentially at the higher-than-market price so they're ping-ponging the same stock shares back and forth, creating the illusion that some of the stocks are trading at a fixed value. No stocks are changing hands out of a small cabal of buyers, so this truly is an illusion of activity at a certain price level.

His mention of "synchronicity" makes me think he is using a regularity of the price and timing of stock sales to detect it. He might just be looking at a plateau of price and seeing a suspiciously regular "bump" up in price back to a certain value that is implying this automated price-fixed mass sale.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Fulcrum on December 06, 2012, 01:27:30 PM
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS

I was always an armchair speculator, even when I was making money on the markets.   Strictly amateur investing...   but it looks like someone has set up 'buy' orders at a certain price thresholds to bump the price up... and another 'buy' at slightly less... and another at slightly less than that, bumping the price up temporarily each time...  giving it that peculiarly 'even' bounce.

It could even be a single large group of investors buying and selling to keep the price plateaued.

It'l change when another big group takes a chunk of stock and drives the price back down, or the money runs out to 'bounce' it... at which point it may or may not enter freefall again.

At least, that's what I suspect.  It's entirely possible I'm completely wrong and it's just an aberration in the numbers.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Merseine on December 06, 2012, 01:58:41 PM
I noticed something today in the Business Week link
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=036570:KS (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=036570:KS)


52 Week High:   12/7/11 - 328,500               52 Week Low:     12/5/12 - 141,000

I know it's been commented on before - but I just realized that the High is one year ago tomorrow.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on December 06, 2012, 05:02:16 PM
Just in the interest of preparing everyone emotionally, I actually suspect a stock price bump before too long.  To be honest, I actually expected a bump after the announced layoffs in Seattle; typically investor knee-jerk reaction is that layoffs mean that a company is "trimming the fat," so to speak, and streamlining operations.  (Which is the official message NCsoft is putting out, by the way.)  The fact that it didn't bounce on the news is moderately interesting, in that to me it indicates that investors aren't buying it--metaphorically or literally.  But whatever...

Anyway, not that I'm going to go out and buy NCsoft stock, but a lot of investors (myself included) look specifically for stocks that have fallen or recently taken a beating to invest in.  Not that I'm looking to lose my butt on buying up junk stocks, but a lot of times investors buy and sell based solely on emotional reaction to some situation, such as a bad financial report or some bad PR move, but the company itself is a decently stable company.  In that kind of situation, a low stock price means essentially that the stock is "on sale," that it will likely go back up, and you can make money thanks to other investors' overreaction to something.

To be honest, I wouldn't touch NCsoft with a 10-foot pole, but then I'm not exactly an unbiased investor when it comes to the company right now.  Plus, I feel that I might have a better finger on the pulse of what it's going through than some investment adviser who doesn't know one thing about the game development industry or gamers themselves; that you really have to have a pretty good idea of what kind of games are market killers versus just DOA.  So right now, because NCsoft's stock is so low, a lot of investment sites actually are recommending that people buy it.  As a result, people probably will actually buy it, thus raising the price.

But long-term, I think that these investment advisers are assuming that NCsoft will be able to continue along like they have in the past, when in fact, things have changed.  Before, NCsoft was a growing company with a stable of profitable titles, new games in development, and a bright future.  Now, thanks to the actions of their executive management, they've killed off a game that had stable income, one that at least had potential (Tabula Rasa), and two of the games they were counting on being monsters did pretty well, but thanks to a pretty dramatic shift in business models, don't have a lot of potential for long-term stable income.  Oh, and they have one studio (Carbine) working on a game (Wildstar) that is probably at least another year or two out, if it ever gets released at all.  In short, their medium-term prospects don't look good.

In my opinion, it looks to me like NCsoft is basically conceding the Western market.  Just as Bugs Bunny cartoons are quite different from Japanese anime, Western-style MMOs are generally quite different from Korean-style MMOs.  Years ago, NCsoft was on the right track; they created a western subsidiary to handle the North American and European gaming markets.  Unfortunately, the past few years, they've done nothing but hamstrung that subsidiary, forcing it to make critical errors based on their own flawed perceptions and goals.  We're never going to be Korea, and if NCsoft had realized that two or three years ago, they might not be in the predicament they're in today.  Maybe instead of buying a baseball team (http://www.ncdinos.com), they would have invested in marketing and support for their North American and European operations doing stuff like, you know, making games.  There is, in my humble opinion, an extremely insightful and probably really accurate analysis (http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3296837&cid=42197775) of what I think NCsoft's motivations are over on Slashdot.  Probably a bit of a simplification, but still probably more-or-less accurate.

Anyway, I don't know that NCsoft will really completely go under.  A lot of it is going to depend on how well Blade and Soul and Guild Wars 2 does in Asian markets.  If they do well in somehow managing to find a way to scrape out a consistent source of income, they'll probably linger on.  But if they fail like Aion did, or if people just buy the box and don't continue investing in microtransactions at the level that I'm pretty sure we were with City of Heroes: Freedom, it's entirely possible that the company will either tank completely and go out of business, or more likely, get bought by someone else, stripped of its assets (quite possibly including IP), and sold off for scraps.  About the only thing I'm almost certain of is that they're pretty much dead in the water here, and if I worked for Arena.Net or especially Carbine, I'd be looking hard to jump ship before they close down those studios.

I guess time will tell and we'll see.  I do think it's telling that it looks like even the knee-jerk investors have lost confidence in the company.  It wouldn't surprise me if the stock price bumped up at least some as other investors try to get in as the elevator comes back to the ground floor, but for the long-term, I certainly wouldn't bet on the company and I still believe that there is at least a decent chance that someone will be able to get the IP for City of Heroes on the cheap who can revive the game.  Unfortunately, it also means that there will be opportunity for third parties to acquire the IP specifically for the purpose of not reviving it, to effectively prevent it from competing with their own products.  It really just boils down to exactly who it is and if they want they want to do.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 06, 2012, 05:11:33 PM
Unfortunately, it also means that there will be opportunity for third parties to acquire the IP specifically for the purpose of not reviving it, to effectively prevent it from competing with their own products.  It really just boils down to exactly who it is and if they want they want to do.
TF Hail Mary, GO!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 06, 2012, 05:59:51 PM
here is, in my humble opinion, an extremely insightful and probably really accurate analysis (http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3296837&cid=42197775) of what I think NCsoft's motivations are over on Slashdot.  Probably a bit of a simplification, but still probably more-or-less accurate.

Hey Tony? That link doesn't work.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Valjean on December 06, 2012, 06:48:16 PM
I may get flamed for this, but I don't particularly wish NCSoft ill or hope they go out of business. 

I agree with you on this. In my mind, there's a difference between NCsoft the company, the NCsoft executive leadership, and the NCsoft employees.

As a company, NCsoft has done great things for the industry in helping to expand the MMO market. The NCsoft employees are probably great people who are just doing their job. I think the issue comes down to the leadership and their seemingly confusing strategies.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Little David on December 06, 2012, 07:47:22 PM
I won't argue that it's a delimma worthy of Solomon when it comes to rooting for NCSoft's demise. I do recognize that the other dev studios and NCSoft's own line employees are going to be collateral damage whenever NCSoft feels the burn. It's not something I'm happy about.

... But the way I see it, the death of five different games and the studios that developed them shows just how willing NCSoft is to axe their own properties. City of Heroes proves that those developers and employees are never going to be immune, no matter how many people play the game or how long it lives. Tabula Rasa proved how far NCSoft is willing to go to get rid of a game and developer they want gone, and that was at a time NCSoft's stock prices were on the up and up.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 06, 2012, 08:07:44 PM
There is, in my humble opinion, an extremely insightful and probably really accurate analysis (http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3296837&cid=42197775) of what I think NCsoft's motivations are over on Slashdot.  Probably a bit of a simplification, but still probably more-or-less accurate.

That is, at its base -- and I wasn't the one to write that comment -- essentially the same thing that I've been saying. That City of Heroes kept making a profit in the Western market, while NCSoft's vaunted grindfest MMOs kept flopping there, was a profound embarrassment -- it made them look incompetent, that they either had no nunshi for the Western market, or couldn't be bothered trying to understand what the differences were between the Asian and Western MMO market. With CoH buried, they can go back to shoving one grindfest after another down our throats in the hope that we'll suddenly realize how much better they are, and not have to face the possibility that they're doing the equivalent of camouflaging chicken to look like a salad and trying to feed it to vegetarians.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on December 06, 2012, 08:20:06 PM
I agree with you on this. In my mind, there's a difference between NCsoft the company, the NCsoft executive leadership, and the NCsoft employees.

As a company, NCsoft has done great things for the industry in helping to expand the MMO market. The NCsoft employees are probably great people who are just doing their job. I think the issue comes down to the leadership and their seemingly confusing strategies.

Yeah, but practically speaking, you can't cause the company harm without affecting its non-executive employees.  It's not like I sit around dreaming of releasing my frustration and anger on some visual effects artist who works at Carbine or some janitor who works in Seoul who might be out of a job if NCsoft closes down.  Still, I won't deny that I have quite a bit of ill will towards NCsoft for what they've been doing to the City of Heroes community and the staff of Paragon City.

What I think is being lost in feeling sorry for the employees who will be hurt if NCsoft tanks is that employee has already been hurt for being associated with the company.  Hell, employees are being hurt right now for being associated with the company.

Personally, I don't care so much if they go out of business, but at the very least, I want them to change.  And change hardly ever happens without some pain for motivation, and I can't think of any good way to make the executive leadership feel some pain without risking the poor guys and gals who just want to do a good job getting stuck in the middle.  As long as the status quo works for them, they're going to keep doing the same thing to other communities and other studios.

Some people have held that the "collateral damage" of people losing their jobs is too much, and that we shouldn't really be going after NCsoft like we are.  To me, though, the logical extension of that is that no matter how bad a company, no matter how evil its practices, you should never say a negative word about them or try to get them to change their ways because someone might lose jobs.  While I feel sorry for people who get caught in the crossfire, I just can't subscribe to that point of view.  People have to be able to do what they can to get companies to change.

Maybe it will cost some jobs.  Then again, it might get NCsoft to change, and who knows?  Our efforts today might be the difference between NCsoft shutting down Carbine studios and laying off even more people and allowing the management there to buy out the company and keep them employed.  And if we're able to follow through on making this a bigger issue than just one game, maybe we can make a positive change in the game publishing/development industry such that people rarely have to lose their jobs at all because of strategic organizational realignments.  In the short term it sucks, but in the long term I'm genuinely hoping that the dings that NCsoft is taking today will result in a net positive down the road--not just for the community (though that is our primary goal), but to to other studios, developers, artists, etc.

Meanwhile, if anyone does know of a way to change NCsoft's mind, to force the issue with the executive management while posing minimal risk to the soldiers on the line, I'm all ears.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 06, 2012, 08:59:33 PM
For those feeling for the potentially unemployed employees of NCSoft should it fall, I will point out some things:



If the economy is bad enough that they cannot, then they likely wouldn't have been long for employment anyway, as that means there wasn't really room for their jobs in the economy. Tragic, but not ours nor NCSoft's fault.

So wish them well, pray for them, and hope that the economy is good enough to support their jobs so they can find new ones.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 06, 2012, 09:06:30 PM
Some people have held that the "collateral damage" of people losing their jobs is too much, and that we shouldn't really be going after NCsoft like we are.

The way I see it, it's not that we shouldn't continue to press on; this is the most effective, perhaps the only, way we can initiate change. I just can't cheer and shout hooray over it, not over something that could cost blameless employees their jobs.

What we need to remind ourselves here is, any job lost in all this is ultimately NCSoft's doing. They've been making a series of management choices regarding the western market that are at best misguided, and reacting to the backlash from those decisions with continued poor choices.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 06, 2012, 09:09:23 PM
NCSoft is not the only tech-related stock I've been seeing a downward trend on, lately, though it is the most dramatic drop. Apple took a rather news-worthy drop, but they appear to be rallying, today.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JanessaVR on December 06, 2012, 10:02:43 PM
The way I see it, it's not that we shouldn't continue to press on; this is the most effective, perhaps the only, way we can initiate change. I just can't cheer and shout hooray over it, not over something that could cost blameless employees their jobs.

What we need to remind ourselves here is, any job lost in all this is ultimately NCSoft's doing. They've been making a series of management choices regarding the western market that are at best misguided, and reacting to the backlash from those decisions with continued poor choices.

I, for one, am totally unconcerned about any collateral damage to NCSoft’s employees.  This is war.  They’re the enemy.

No mercy, no compassion – at all – at least not from me.

I care about winning this fight – no more, no less.  Whether that results in everyone at NCSoft losing or keeping their jobs is totally irrelevant to me.  I just want CoH restored - by whatever means necessary.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Minotaur on December 06, 2012, 10:20:26 PM
I, for one, am totally unconcerned about any collateral damage to NCSoft’s employees.  This is war.  They’re the enemy.

No mercy, no compassion – at all – at least not from me.

I care about winning this fight – no more, no less.  Whether that results in everyone at NCSoft losing or keeping their jobs is totally irrelevant to me.  I just want CoH restored - by whatever means necessary.
A bit harsh on people like Beastyle that were ex-CoH and work in NCSoft Seattle.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 10:24:14 PM
It is. But don't forget it's not us making them get canned. He or she worded it a bit poorly there, and certainly too harshly but it's not like we're the ones who'll give them the pink slip.

I don't like the idea of innocent, hard working people losing their jobs, not in the holiday season, not in any season. But as NCSoft continues making their mistakes, and we push them on it, it's unfortunately inevitable.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 06, 2012, 10:25:40 PM
A bit harsh on people like Beastyle that were ex-CoH and work in NCSoft Seattle.

Not really. By this point, they know who they're working for. If they aren't sprucing up their resume already, they're in for a rude awakening soon. NCSoft has made its bed. Now they have to lie in it. Do any of us like it? Are any of us gleefully rubbing our hands together over it? No. But we're not the ones making poor decisions that affect NCSoft employees: Their management is.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kosmos on December 06, 2012, 10:28:30 PM
NCsoftcore is not in any danger of going out of business any time soon. The drop in their stock price really has little affect on their business; it only directly affects their investors (which does in this case include NCsoftcore itself). And even in that case only the investors who are selling (which doesn't include NCsoftcore). To use an analogy: their stock drop is like having your home's property value cut in half overnight. That doesn't affect the home as a home per se. It's still the same house. Right up until you try to sell it or borrow against the equity (I'm ignoring property tax issues as they are pertinent to the analogy). The same is true with stock. The only way the drop would directly impact NCsoftcore is if they needed to raise capital through selling stock or borrowing against their assets (which, as mentioned, include a large chunk of their own stock). Flush with cash from GW2 sales and cutting costs in the West, they really have no need to raise capital even if they have plans for expansion in some other area. They have plenty of cash and are still turning an enviable 20% profit (about twice that of Activision Blizzard or Apple). So the company's financial situation remains fine.

Now, NCsoftcore West is a different story. Anyone who works there and isn't polishing their resume, lining up references and keeping an eye on their bank balance is an idiot.

I have a small but growing suspicion that the "realignment of focus" and the stated desire to expand in the Western market may mean NCsoftcore West closing as a publisher (and remaining only to oversee production studios or simply shutting down altogether) and Nexon America becoming the publisher for NCsoftcore products in North America. That is, I think NCsoftcore may be internally admitting failure as a Western publisher and outsourcing that to someone they think can do it better.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Minotaur on December 06, 2012, 10:28:52 PM
Not really. By this point, they know who they're working for. If they aren't sprucing up their resume already, they're in for a rude awakening soon. NCSoft has made its bed. Now they have to lie in it. Do any of us like it? Are any of us gleefully rubbing our hands together over it? No. But we're not the ones making poor decisions that affect NCSoft employees: Their management is.

That was it, I got the impression some people here WERE gleefully rubbing their hands together.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 10:30:06 PM
I'm certainly not.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 06, 2012, 10:34:11 PM
Nor I. In the end, all I want is our game back.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Samuraiko on December 06, 2012, 10:43:01 PM
I gleefully rub my hands and delight in the downfall of the corporate decisionmakers who chose to close COH.

Admittedly, the secretary, the janitor, the average Joes and Jills who had nothing to do with said decision... them I feel sorry for.

But the rest? They can rot in hell for all I care.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 06, 2012, 10:46:01 PM
As I said before, so long as the likes of Monsanto still exist, I just can't be bothered with any real thoughts of vengeance towards the NCSoft execs.

Just sell the game to someone who will use it, and I will cheerfully ignore your company to the end of days.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 06, 2012, 10:51:30 PM
As I said before, so long as the likes of Monsanto still exist, I just can't be bothered with any real thoughts of vengeance towards the NCSoft execs.

Just sell the game to someone who will use it, and I will cheerfully ignore your company to the end of days.

Exactly. Same here.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 10:59:45 PM
I'd have a hard time holding the hate if they caved and did the right thing, the thing they should've done to start with. I'm not an inherently hateful person.

That being said, I'd never stop warning all those who wish to play an NCSoft game. These hypothetical people deserve to be informed about the company's practices.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 06, 2012, 11:01:22 PM
It's so simple a Clockwork could understand it.

If COH != OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = ATK.CRP(OWN.COH)

CRP(OWN.COH) = NCS

RSP.CORP != NCS

TSK = ATK.NCS until NCS != OWN.COH

If COH = OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = PLY.COH

If TSK = PLY.COH Then NCS.RLV = 0
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 06, 2012, 11:04:42 PM
I like the cut of your gibberish, sir!  8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Dragonicism on December 06, 2012, 11:08:03 PM
It's so simple a Clockwork could understand it.

If COH != OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = ATK.CRP(OWN.COH)

CRP(OWN.COH) = NCS

RSP.CORP != NCS

TSK = ATK.NCS until NCS != OWN.COH

If COH = OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = PLY.COH

If TSK = PLY.COH Then NCS.RLV = 0

Is... Is that..? That's the very style of code output by the service droids in Praetoria. I don't know the language itself, but I think I understand it. I don't suppose I could request a translation to Java or C++, so everyone else can understand it?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 06, 2012, 11:11:53 PM
i agree that the average poeple losing their jobs is not cool, however as pointed out, that if ncsoft is going under realignment anyway then the jobs were hanging by a thread likely to be cut at a moments notice like with out devs

the jobs being lost are purely due to ncsofts business management stupidity (both in goals as a company and decision making)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JanessaVR on December 06, 2012, 11:12:31 PM
Is... Is that..? That's the very style of code output by the service droids in Praetoria. I don't know the language itself, but I think I understand it. I don't suppose I could request a translation to Java or C++, so everyone else can understand it?

Heh.  You're over-thinking it.  I'm a programmer, too, and they baffled me at first in Praetoria as well, as I was trying to read them as code.  They're abbreviated words, not function/method calls.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 11:16:06 PM
Yeah, it's gibberish, just like a lot of Resistance speak. But -fun- gibberish!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: kierthos on December 06, 2012, 11:20:14 PM
It's so simple a Clockwork could understand it.

If COH != OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = ATK.CRP(OWN.COH)

CRP(OWN.COH) = NCS

RSP.CORP != NCS

TSK = ATK.NCS until NCS != OWN.COH

If COH = OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = PLY.COH

If TSK = PLY.COH Then NCS.RLV = 0
Is... Is that..? That's the very style of code output by the service droids in Praetoria. I don't know the language itself, but I think I understand it. I don't suppose I could request a translation to Java or C++, so everyone else can understand it?

I'll do my best

COH = City of Heroes (obviously)

OWN = owner

RSP = responsible

CRP = corporation

TSK = task

ATK = attack

NCS = NC Soft

RLV = relevant

PLY = play

Therefore:

If City of Heroes is not owned by a responsible corporation, then the task is to attack the owner of City of Heroes.

The corporation that owns City of Heroes is NC Soft.

The task is to attack NC Soft until NC Soft no longer owns City of Heroes.

If City of Heroes is owned by a responsible corporation, then the task is to play City of Heroes.

If the task is playing City of Heroes, then NC Soft is no longer relevant.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 06, 2012, 11:22:46 PM
Is... Is that..? That's the very style of code output by the service droids in Praetoria. I don't know the language itself, but I think I understand it. I don't suppose I could request a translation to Java or C++, so everyone else can understand it?

If COH != OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = ATK.CRP(OWN.COH)
If City of Heroes is not owned by a responsible corporation, then the task is to attack the corporation that owns City of Heroes.

CRP(OWN.COH) = NCS
The corporation that owns City of Heroes is NCSoft.

RSP.CORP != NCS
A responsible corporation is not NCSoft.

TSK = ATK.NCS until NCS != OWN.COH
The task is to attack NCSoft until NCSoft does not own City of Heroes.

If COH = OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = PLY.COH
If City of Heroes is owned by a responsible corporation then the task is to play City of Heroes.

If TSK = PLY.COH Then NCS.RLV = 0
If the task is to play City of Heroes then NCSoft's relevance is zero.


I'll do my best

Jinx! :o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 06, 2012, 11:23:24 PM
Can you imagine trying to speak in an object-oriented language?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Hyperstrike on December 06, 2012, 11:34:03 PM
I gleefully rub my hands and delight in the downfall of the corporate decisionmakers who chose to close COH.

Admittedly, the secretary, the janitor, the average Joes and Jills who had nothing to do with said decision... them I feel sorry for.

But the rest? They can rot in hell for all I care.

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite

I wouldn't call their stock tumble a "freefall".  But schadenfreude makes it even nicer.  Since now we get to see them bounce off the rocks on their way down.

 ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mentalshock on December 06, 2012, 11:41:11 PM
I wouldn't call their stock tumble a "freefall".  But schadenfreude makes it even nicer.  Since now we get to see them bounce off the rocks on their way down.

 ;D

Hopefully, sharp pointy ones.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 07, 2012, 12:22:43 AM
The new official NCsoft themesong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbqvFFdyNqc
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: johnrobey on December 07, 2012, 01:19:34 AM
The new official NCsoft themesong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbqvFFdyNqc

Good one!  In that case, I'd like to offer a little Ti Kwan Leap (original by the Franatics):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8VD4JXUozM
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Vasarto on December 07, 2012, 01:55:29 AM
welll..DOUBLE BUGGER!

Looks like NCSOFT is going to be getting 686.8 million dollars from Nexon.. Not to mention gone up by 1.39....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/08/nexon-ncsoft-idUST9E8GV09P20120608?type=companyNews
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Jetfire99 on December 07, 2012, 02:00:18 AM
welll..DOUBLE BUGGER!

Looks like NCSOFT is going to be getting 686.8 million dollars from Nexon.. Not to mention gone up by 1.39....

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/08/nexon-ncsoft-idUST9E8GV09P20120608?type=companyNews

Just a heads up check the date that's from June, take it easy chomper.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Vasarto on December 07, 2012, 02:03:29 AM
oh..lol...then why was it the first page when I googled ncsoft? lol.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Tubbius on December 07, 2012, 02:43:02 AM
I love the Praetorian Clockwork language.  :)  It makes this English teacher smile.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Vasarto on December 07, 2012, 02:47:34 AM
I love the Praetorian Clockwork language.  :)  It makes this English teacher smile.

What is a Praetorian Clockwork language?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TargetOne on December 07, 2012, 03:01:49 AM
oh..lol...then why was it the first page when I googled ncsoft? lol.

Because they only put out press releases when they have GOOD news to report? And that was the last bit of "good news" they had?  ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Sarge Morris on December 07, 2012, 03:16:30 AM
The new official NCsoft themesong: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbqvFFdyNqc

I see what you did there, and I raise you some Chapin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkSRF-uHlWk

I think this is more fitting, seeing as how the crew is obscenely overconfident and blissfully unaware of their predicament until they're completely and utterly screwed.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TargetOne on December 07, 2012, 03:57:18 AM
I was curious to see how much NCSoft's stock fluctuations relate to its overall corporate value, so I started comparing its market capitalization (total value of all outstanding shares) to other major entertainment companies.

As of this moment, NCSoft's market cap (according to Reuters) is 3.2 trillion Korean Won, which (based on the current exchange rate) translates to $2.9 billion US dollars.

Now, some other companies, in no particular order:

Walt Disney Company:           $87.8 billion (yikes!)
CBS Corporation:                    $22 billion
Electronic Arts:                        $4.5 billion
Valve Corporation:                  (privately held, so market cap does not apply, but its equity according to wikipedia is an esitmated $2.5 billion.)
Activision/Blizzard:                  $12.6 billion
Nexon                                     $4.8 billion (converted from Japanese Yen)

And Perfect World Co. Ltd., which trades on Nasdaq? A paltry $498 million. Which doesn't seem to bode well for those who might be pinning their near-term hopes for superhero MMO gaming on Champions Online. (No wonder Perfect World isn't investing much money in development of Champions, they just can't afford to.)

TargetOne
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 07, 2012, 04:43:54 AM
I'm proud to say that both kierthos and Triplash are fluent in Praetorian Clockwork.  Both provided excellent (if a bit literal) translations.

Below is the exact translation I had in mind when I wrote it.

Quote
If COH != OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = ATK.CRP(OWN.COH)
If City of Heroes isn't owned by a responsible corporation, then we should attack that corporation.

CRP(OWN.COH) = NCS
NCsoft is the corporation that owns City of Heroes.

RSP.CORP != NCS
NCsoft isn't a responsible corporation

TSK = ATK.NCS until NCS != OWN.COH
We should attack NCsoft until NCsoft gives up CoH.

If COH = OWN(RSP.CRP) Then TSK = PLY.COH
Once CoH is owned by a responsible corporation, we should resume playing it.

If TSK = PLY.COH Then NCS.RLV = 0
Once we can play CoH again, NCsoft doesn't matter.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Sajaana on December 07, 2012, 08:08:57 AM
Blah...it's looking like it's trying to rally.  149,500 now.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Dragonicism on December 07, 2012, 09:06:19 AM
Blah...it's looking like it's trying to rally.  149,500 now.

SELL! SELL! SELL! Get out of the sinking ship!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 07, 2012, 09:43:39 AM
What is a Praetorian Clockwork language?
Glad you asked!

In Praetoria, they have Clockwork like on Primal Earth.  But rather than being the psychically cobbled-together scrapmetal monstrosities of the clockwork king, they are sleek android servant robots, invented by Praetor Keyes (Anti-Matter) and popularized by Praetor Barry (Neuron).

Clockwork, when speaking, use a simple code-like abbreviation of the English language.  Clockwork-speak is different from the speech of ordinary citizens, or in Clockspeak, CWK.SPK != CIT.SPK.

The Clockwork's shorthand consists of 3-4 letter abbreviations for nouns, verbs and most adjectives, coupled with simple linking terms to form sentences.  For instance, in Clockspeak, Praetoria is simply PRA.  Emperor Marcus Cole (AKA Tyrant) is MCL.

Common linking terms are = (equals or is), != (does not equal or is not), > (greater than), < (less than), and simple conjunctions, adjectives and adverbs such as "if", "else", "then", "while", and "until".

To indicate possession or subject-predicate relation, you enclose a term in parentheses, and place the term it relates to or is possessed by outside of it.

You can also add ! to the front of any term to indicate "is not" - for instance, !ALV (not alive) means that the subject is dead.  Adding ? before a term indicates a question.  So "?YOU = ALV" means "Are you alive?"

So, If you want to state that Emperor Cole could kill Praetor White in a fight, you'd say...

Quote
If EMP.MCL.ATK(PRT.WHT) then PRT.WHT = !ALV

Now, if you want to say that Emperor Cole HAS killed Praetor White in a fight, that would be...

Quote
EMP.MCL.ATK(PRT.WHT) until PRT.WHT = !ALV

And if you want to state that you are running from Praetor White because you were discussing whether or not Emperor Cole could kill him...

Quote
TSK.ABT(TLK(If EMP.MCL.ATK(PRT.WHT) then ?PRT.WHT = ALV));TSK = ESC(PRT.WHT)

This has been a crash-course in Praetorian Clockwork language.  Now if you'll excuse me, I hear thudding boots and swearing.  I think I may need to ESC(PRT.WHT).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kosmos on December 07, 2012, 09:50:58 AM
Looks like NCSOFT is going to be getting 686.8 million dollars from Nexon...

One more thing to note about that deal from June... that was a private transaction with the stock purchased from Taek-Jin Kim, not NCsoftcore. The money went into his pocket, not the company's.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 07, 2012, 12:16:40 PM
... proud ... Triplash ... excellent ... translation ...

Woohoo! I won!

/e endzonedance


Clockwork, when speaking, use a simple code-like abbreviation of the English language.  Clockwork-speak is different from the speech of ordinary citizens

Let's just be glad Portal Corps never had a gift shop. Cause sooner or later somebody would've had to write a Rikti to Clockwork dictionary, and that poor bugger's head would have exploded.


Not to mention the joke books:

?RSN = CKN(CRS.ROD)

RSN = GLR(EMP.MCL)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 07, 2012, 12:19:47 PM
Praetorian Clockwork language feels like a frankenstein monster of Assembly-style mnemonics with C-style syntax and objective programming. WNT=DNT
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blitzwing on December 07, 2012, 05:06:24 PM
Great, now you've gone and reminded me of the classic 'Rikt-E-raser' from The Cape Radio....  ;)

'Compulsion, atypical, must consume grenade...nomnomnom-'  =pingpingping=  'REMORSE!'  -BOOM-

:D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Tubbius on December 07, 2012, 06:34:25 PM
Quote
Not to mention the joke books:

?RSN = CKN(CRS.ROD)

RSN = GLR(EMP.MCL)

....

Why did the chicken cross the road?

For the glory of Emperor Marcus Cole.

Right?  :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DJMoose on December 07, 2012, 07:00:48 PM

?RSN = CKN(CRS.ROD)

RSN = GLR(EMP.MCL)

Why did the chicken cross the road?

For the glory of Emperor Marcus Cole.
Right?  :)
That is the funniest thing I have seen all day! ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 07, 2012, 07:12:23 PM
....

Why did the chicken cross the road?

For the glory of Emperor Marcus Cole.

Right?  :)

Bingo! You win a month's supply of Enriche! ;D


That is the funniest thing I have seen all day! ;D

Thank you, thank you! I'm here all week :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: HarvesterOfEyes on December 07, 2012, 07:57:35 PM
Listening to Rikti speak makes me want to exclaim:

"Subject: Your English, terrible"
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Minotaur on December 07, 2012, 08:07:44 PM
Listening to Rikti speak makes me want to exclaim:

"Subject: Your English, terrible"

"Subject:English, terrible: yours" or similar I'd have thought
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 07, 2012, 08:41:33 PM
Listening to Rikti speak makes me want to exclaim:

"Subject: Your English, terrible"
"Subject:English, terrible: yours" or similar I'd have thought
You're both close.

It would be:
"Subject: your English.  Status: terrible!"

Also acceptable:
"Your: English.  Status: terrible!"

Rikti Translation: difficult.  Dialects: numerous.  Variances: dependent on: degree of: Riktification.  Differences include: Positioning: colons, degree of: subject/verb colon usage, variances in: post-colon capitalization, as well as: others.

SPK:RKT.CWK.HYB = SLF.EVD

SLF.STS = BRN:HRT

REQ(MED:PAIN)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on December 07, 2012, 09:09:39 PM
SLF.STS = BRN:HRT
Yeah, sometimes trying to read those makes my BRN:HRT too.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 07, 2012, 09:19:24 PM
Yeah, sometimes trying to read those makes my BRN:HRT too.
At least it's not as bad as trying to figure out what your average Resistance member is trying to say.  Or puzzling out the tortured mess of Resistance Clockwork output.

Now that's an exercise in brainmelting torture.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 07, 2012, 09:20:42 PM
English: yours: terrible.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 07, 2012, 09:22:23 PM
English: yours: terrible.
Look out folks, we have a genuine Rikti among us.

No seriously, good job.  That's about the Riktiest of Rikti dialects, right there.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Xieveral on December 07, 2012, 09:29:09 PM
?RSN = CKN(CRS.ROD)

RSN = GLR(EMP.MCL)

I have my first signature thanks to you <3

(cranky settings won't let me put it in a shiny quote box though ;-;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 07, 2012, 09:31:06 PM
SPK:RKT.CWK.HYB = SLF.EVD

SLF.STS = BRN:HRT

REQ(MED:PAIN)

Now you just need to add Resistance into that and have Dillo speak it, and your journey to the dark side will be complete.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 07, 2012, 09:34:06 PM
I have my first signature thanks to you <3

(cranky settings won't let me put it in a shiny quote box though ;-;)

pffft... who needs quotes? Enjoy! :D <3
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 07, 2012, 09:39:52 PM
Now you just need to add Resistance into that and have Dillo speak it, and your journey to the dark side will be complete.
Look, pal.  I may be a megalomaniacal spider-themed villain intent on one day usurping Lord Recluse and controlling the known world.  I'm also fairly decent at puzzling out odd robotic/extradimensional/extraterrestrial dialects of English.

But I am not a masochist!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Tubbius on December 07, 2012, 09:42:56 PM
NCSoft's stock is going boingy boingy and slowly climbing.  :|
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 07, 2012, 09:47:51 PM
*grumble* They're almost back up to 150,000 (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS).

I wonder what caused the sudden small upswing?  It's not like NC's doing anything different in its wholesale mismanagement of its assets.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: LadyImmolatasia on December 07, 2012, 10:23:42 PM
A small rise in stock was inevitable as they even out. They still have the massive ass whooping to their overall value they've received this year.
Title: Love the tag line. Are you the author or just someone with great taste?
Post by: RandomUnicorn on December 07, 2012, 10:58:50 PM
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

Somewhere beyond time and space, if you look hard you might find a flash of silver trailing crimson: a lone lost Spartan on his way home.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 08, 2012, 12:47:31 AM
Some people are buying, assuming that NCSoft has completely bottomed out and they are getting a bargain that will rise.

This might ALSO reflect Nexon buying NCSoft stock in an effort to get, not just a controlling, but a majority share.  They won't do it too fast though, because they won't want to make the price rise.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 08, 2012, 05:18:59 AM
Some people are buying, assuming that NCSoft has completely bottomed out and they are getting a bargain that will rise.

This might ALSO reflect Nexon buying NCSoft stock in an effort to get, not just a controlling, but a majority share.  They won't do it too fast though, because they won't want to make the price rise.

this seems the most logical to me, and if it is the case, its looking more and more like ncsoft might get taken over by nexon in the next year
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JanessaVR on December 08, 2012, 05:36:43 AM
this seems the most logical to me, and if it is the case, its looking more and more like ncsoft might get taken over by nexon in the next year
If so, then VV was probably right - NCSoft might not be our real foe here.  If they're just Nexon's puppet now, then it was probably Nexon that ordered the hit on CoH, even if NCSoft pulled the trigger.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 08, 2012, 05:43:59 AM
That's something that a lot of people felt from the start, actually. And if true, our goal needs to be getting the IP from NCSoft before Nexon takes them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 08, 2012, 06:30:14 AM
Nexon doesn't have controlling ownership, they don't have majority ownership, they simply got 15% ownership.  They haven't put anyone onto the board of directors.  The only thing they can do with that much stock is to crash the price by dumping it onto the market all at once.  That's a great threat except they've already lost 40% of their money during it's crash.  How much more money are they willing to lose?

Again, every stock transaction has a buyer.  People are buying the stock because they either think the sell off is an overreaction or the stock is now at a price that's more reasonable in relation to the company's fundamentals, as in sales and profits.  Since the stock went up today people either thought the hit it took a couple a days ago was too much or it could simply be a case of "rising tide raises all boats".  Don't normally follow the Korean exchange too closely.

Here in the states, we have a slew of investment types who have declared the PC as dead, being replaced by smartphones and tablets.  Because of that hardware and software companies that specialize in PCs are also being poo-pooed.  Now I imagine this isn't a US trend, the PC is dead, but a world wide one and in Korea a online game company that's primary sources of income are from PC games are also on investor's naughty lists along with PC Bangs (PC gaming cafes) and hard drive companies.

Looking at Nexon's 3rd quarter numbers show that their Korean sales are down 20% year to year and 22% in North America.  For Nexon their biggest market is China and it's growing quickly.

Now if Nexon or NCSoft can come out with a popular MMO that's scalable on smartphones to tablets, I would imagine their stocks will shoot up again.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 08, 2012, 10:08:28 AM
We know Nexon bought 15% of NCSoft stock from Taek Jin Kim himself.

What we do not know is how much more they have bought through proxies since that time.

We also do not know what Taek Jin Kim's first wife--the one he had to give half of his (original 60%) stock share to in the divorce--has done with HER 30%.  No one seems to have tracked that.

As for PCs being dead, I say again, if you want to track how many PCs are operating, you don't track the number of new PC sales, you track the number of sales of high end video cards.  People are no longer buying new PCs every year or so, they are upgrading instead.  The PC is far from dead.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: johnrobey on December 08, 2012, 10:12:18 AM
Nexon doesn't have controlling ownership, they don't have majority ownership, they simply got 15% ownership.  They haven't put anyone onto the board of directors.  The only thing they can do with that much stock is to crash the price by dumping it onto the market all at once.  That's a great threat except they've already lost 40% of their money during it's crash.  How much more money are they willing to lose?

Again, every stock transaction has a buyer.  People are buying the stock because they either think the sell off is an overreaction or the stock is now at a price that's more reasonable in relation to the company's fundamentals, as in sales and profits.  Since the stock went up today people either thought the hit it took a couple a days ago was too much or it could simply be a case of "rising tide raises all boats".  Don't normally follow the Korean exchange too closely.

Here in the states, we have a slew of investment types who have declared the PC as dead, being replaced by smartphones and tablets.  Because of that hardware and software companies that specialize in PCs are also being poo-pooed.  Now I imagine this isn't a US trend, the PC is dead, but a world wide one and in Korea a online game company that's primary sources of income are from PC games are also on investor's naughty lists along with PC Bangs (PC gaming cafes) and hard drive companies.

Looking at Nexon's 3rd quarter numbers show that their Korean sales are down 20% year to year and 22% in North America.  For Nexon their biggest market is China and it's growing quickly.

Now if Nexon or NCSoft can come out with a popular MMO that's scalable on smartphones to tablets, I would imagine their stocks will shoot up again.

In that case we should figure out if there is anything else we can reasonably do to get NCSoft to sell the IP.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on December 08, 2012, 04:33:04 PM
As for PCs being dead, I say again, if you want to track how many PCs are operating, you don't track the number of new PC sales, you track the number of sales of high end video cards.  People are no longer buying new PCs every year or so, they are upgrading instead.  The PC is far from dead.

IMO tablets and mobile gaming are much more likely to steal market share from console games, not PC games.

PC gamers still play on PCs and not consoles for a reason. Mobile devices won't change that.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 08, 2012, 05:48:02 PM
PC gamers still play on PCs and not consoles for a reason. Mobile devices won't change that.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.corvusonline.net%2Fforum_images%2FPeteThis01.jpg)

Every couple of years, someone trots themselves out to go stand on some digital street-corner and loudly announces that the Death of PC gaming is nigh via some long-winded article. They always manage to get a few converts to sip that particular Kool-Aid and chime in, but most of us just look at them askance and say "Uh, yeah, whatever" and call it a day. They've been wrong every time in the past, and they will continue to be wrong for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 08, 2012, 05:54:24 PM
Every couple of years, someone trots themselves out to go stand on some digital street-corner and loudly announces that the Death of PC gaming is nigh via some long-winded article. They always manage to get a few converts to sip that particular Kool-Aid and chime in, but most of us just look at them askance and say "Uh, yeah, whatever" and call it a day. They've been wrong every time in the past, and they will continue to be wrong for the foreseeable future.

What I can never grasp is, why is there such an obsession with it in the first place? Nobody would keep saying things like this if they weren't hoping for it to be true.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on December 08, 2012, 06:00:53 PM
Rivalry? There's a lot of conflict between proponents of various platforms so if one of them died out or faded into insignificance, it would make their claims that their own preferred platform is "best" slightly more credible.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 08, 2012, 06:17:51 PM
Rivalry? There's a lot of conflict between proponents of various platforms so if one of them died out or faded into insignificance, it would make their claims that their own preferred platform is "best" slightly more credible.

There's nothing stopping one of them from competing in the PC market though. Compatibility between platforms is easier now than it has been at any other time in gaming history.

Or is PC just not seen as being worth the trouble because a PC can't follow you around during your day and spam you with ads?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 08, 2012, 06:39:05 PM
Quote
People are no longer buying new PCs every year or so, they are upgrading instead.
Unless they skimped so long on upgrading critical parts that the machine can't really be upgraded.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on December 08, 2012, 06:47:48 PM
Unless they skimped so long on upgrading critical parts that the machine can't really be upgraded.

True, but even so, if they have a habit of upgrading their PCs, odds are they're going to assemble one from individual parts too.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 08, 2012, 06:50:19 PM
Or is PC just not seen as being worth the trouble because a PC can't follow you around during your day and spam you with ads?

That's pretty much the problem: God forbid we not be spammed with ads every minute of every day.

I have no desire to join the legions who spend 80% of every 24 hours with their noses glued to a smartphone screen, and then when they finally go to bed the phone is tucked under their pillows so that if someone texts them they'll know immedjutly!!!... so I guess I am just old and cranky.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 08, 2012, 07:01:59 PM
What I can never grasp is, why is there such an obsession with it in the first place? Nobody would keep saying things like this if they weren't hoping for it to be true.

I think part of it is the desire to be right about something of importance that's forthcoming. There's this personality type that wants to be a doomsayer and be right about it. They are probably the types that like to say "I told you so."

Granted, that's not true in every case.

We often see similar declarations as well, like the death of the PC in general (to be brought about by tablets, smart-phones, cloud computing, etc), the desktop PC (the previous list, plus laptops as as a cause), and printed media (caused by computers, and now e-readers and other types of digital media).

It does get tiresome after a while.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 08, 2012, 07:07:18 PM
I don't know of anyone who buys a PC every year.  Smartphones I can believe but I'm not one of those nut jobs either.  Tablets are still rapidly evolving and even though the iPad 4 has an impressive bit of hardware performance wise I'm not a fan of a closed ecosystem.

And the "PC's are Dead" mantra is talking about the consumer/home PC market.  Yes I've had computers since my Atari 800 in college with it's 300 baud modem, I'm the exception but most people only use their PCs for accessing the Internet (and a tablet it good enough for that) and for school children doing their written reports.   Most people game on a console not a PC.  So I can grok where stock analysts are coming from when they keep declaring that "PCs are dead".  They missed out on Dell and Compaq and Gateway in the 80s and 90s so they are just looking for the next big thing in the consumer marketplace.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 08, 2012, 07:10:50 PM
Most people game on a console not a PC. 

Which has been the case for a good many years now. And yet there's still a market for PC gaming. Its not nearly as big as it used to be, but it survives.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: johnrobey on December 08, 2012, 07:22:52 PM
What I can never grasp is, why is there such an obsession with it in the first place? Nobody would keep saying things like this if they weren't hoping for it to be true.

I think part of the obsession is one we know either first- or second-hand: the allure of the New Shiney.  Another piece is self-interest.  Fame, fortune, even religious cults may form around the person able to accurately predict that which has a direct bearing on the welfare of the group.  I'd guess this second piece is only slightly diminished in present times from what it was in antiquity, if at all.  Besides, look at how fun and useful small, portable computers are (whether called smartphones, androids, etc.)

You may have heard, as I once did, that initially no one could think of a use for a personal computer.  Why would one want one?  Until one engineer said he thought his mother would use one to store her recipes on.

There's nothing stopping one of them from competing in the PC market though. Compatibility between platforms is easier now than it has been at any other time in gaming history.

Or is PC just not seen as being worth the trouble because a PC can't follow you around during your day and spam you with ads?

I'll always be a fan of full sized keyboards and detest texting, but I'm an admitted old guy.  Do you have an ad-blocker installed on your PC, Tim?  Yeah, i thought so.  Me too.  BTW, I'm not trying to take away from what you're saying.  Humans do a lot of things that strictly speaking aren't rational but make sense anyway, such as falling in love.  (I'll leave it to others to find better examples.)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 08, 2012, 07:40:30 PM
Which has been the case for a good many years now. And yet there's still a market for PC gaming. Its not nearly as big as it used to be, but it survives.
Yes but from a PoV of a stock market analyst, they are looking for companies that cater to huge markets or supply materials to companies that cater to huge markets.  And right now they aren't seeing PCs as being a product that sells into a huge market (consumer/home) anymore.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 08, 2012, 07:50:58 PM
The original statement that prompted my reply was Tim wondering aloud about the obsession to declare the market dead. This declaration is not always coming from stock-market analysts.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ukaserex on December 08, 2012, 08:05:42 PM
It is true. The sad part about the majority of venture capitalists and other investors is that they don't just look for a return of their investment dollar, but the highest return for their dollar. There are some niche marketeers, but they seem to be few and far between.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mistress Urd on December 08, 2012, 08:35:14 PM
At this point my only comment is, when NCSoft is delisted I can throw a party.  :P
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 08, 2012, 08:38:06 PM
At this point my only comment is, when NCSoft is delisted I can throw a party.  :P

I bring the chips!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 08, 2012, 08:38:51 PM
When NCSoft is in ashes, then you have my permission to party.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 08, 2012, 11:14:08 PM
I think, possibly related to their stocks, knowing their income would be interesting. Anyone know of how their profits are trending in the wake of the shutdown announcement and after? The more we know, the better. I'm not one that is so good at tracking such information even though I am positive it is out there.

I, along with most here, would truly like to believe that shutting down our home has been problematic for them and I don't believe that belief is misplaced or simple, unguided opinion. I hate to see any company suffer in these times, but I hate even more feeling cheated and stolen from. Especially by someone who thinks that it is in anyone's best interest.

Ideally, I think that most of us, myself included, would like to see the company do badly, then either relinquish the rights to the game or reopen it. After that, I would love to see their stocks, sales, and reputation soar. But, as they say; Knowing is half the battle, and I'd love to know how their general sales and/or subscriptions to their other games are doing.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 08, 2012, 11:25:34 PM
When NCSoft is in ashes, then you have my permission to party.

...in that vein, musn't their punishment be more severe?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on December 08, 2012, 11:34:44 PM
I don't know of anyone who buys a PC every year.
I think the least amount of time I've gone between new systems was about two years, but I have three systems running.

I just upgrade components in my gaming PC until the motherboard isn't able to support it anymore (recently replaced it due to the fact that I just couldn't get new AGP graphics cards anymore), but my last file server had been up and running since 1998 (and still on Windows 98) when I finally replaced it a couple of years ago.  My laptop is still doing just fine after a memory upgrade or two over the years and I think I've had it since '05 or '06.

Aside from the laptop, I've been buying components and building my own systems since about 2000.  Since they don't track new PC sales by looking at components, I've spent a whole lot of money they aren't taking into account.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Vasarto on December 08, 2012, 11:37:09 PM
I bring the chips!

For those old enough I got this recipe for a cocktail called a Triforce

Goldschlager - Gannon
99 Bananas - Zelda
Captain Morgan Black - Link

In that order in a shot glass.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: P51mus on December 08, 2012, 11:59:47 PM
Yes but from a PoV of a stock market analyst, they are looking for companies that cater to huge markets or supply materials to companies that cater to huge markets.  And right now they aren't seeing PCs as being a product that sells into a huge market (consumer/home) anymore.

Steam is telling me there are 4,621,711 people on it right now.  Is that not big?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 09, 2012, 12:10:50 AM
I bring the chips!

Make em sweet-onion flavor chips, and I'm down! :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Vasarto on December 09, 2012, 12:22:08 AM
Make em sweet-onion flavor chips, and I'm down! :D

I will bring some Seven Layer Dip

refried Beans and cheese
Spinach
Clam
Onion
Frito Lay Jalapeno cheese
Guacamole
Salsa - Medium

Also I will make scones and bring coke
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 09, 2012, 01:40:23 AM
Steam is telling me there are 4,621,711 people on it right now.  Is that not big?
Compared to 1.26 million XBox 360 sales in the US just during the month of November and over 500,000 PS3 sales during Black Friday weekend, no it's not big.

Anyways that's just people logged in to Steam.  Heck I'm logged into Steam but I'm not playing any games right now.

Since FatherXmas was taken I'm using another former CoH character, AtomicSamuraiRobot as my Steam name.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 09, 2012, 01:51:54 AM
For those old enough I got this recipe for a cocktail called a Triforce

Goldschlager - Gannon
99 Bananas - Zelda
Captain Morgan Black - Link

In that order in a shot glass.

Layered?

If my research proves it's cool (gluten free) I'll have to try that.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 09, 2012, 01:53:33 AM
Compared to 1.26 million XBox 360 sales in the US just during the month of November and over 500,000 PS3 sales during Black Friday weekend, no it's not big.

Anyways that's just people logged in to Steam.  Heck I'm logged into Steam but I'm not playing any games right now.

Since FatherXmas was taken I'm using another former CoH character, AtomicSamuraiRobot as my Steam name.

Steam also isn't the only PC game service. Origin has, or at least had within the past year, over 10 million users, and that's WITH a ton of bad PR surrounding their rather scary ToS, stock disasters, and EA earning the "Worst Company of 2011" award.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Vasarto on December 09, 2012, 01:56:07 AM
Well from what I see nc went up a little bit. Stll pretty sure they are still a lot down from what they were from the end of November though.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 09, 2012, 03:54:14 AM
Here's another thing that all those analysts are not taking into account.

The West is getting older.

No, really, seriously older.  As in, I am 62, sitting in a zero gravity recliner, with a padded lapdesk I got from an Old Fart catalog holding my keyboard in an ergonomically comfortable position, with not one, but TWO Very Large monitors to hold my stuff.  That is my work rig and my gaming rig.  My father in law's is similar, with even bigger monitors.

Console games are not much fun for my aging reflexes.  I have real problems with joysticks; people with arthritic fingers have even more troubles with joysticks.  Plus, the TV you are gaming on is probably not the one on the living room, but one in the family room with furniture comfortable for kids but not old bones, and with a TV that is fine for watching a movie but gives you squinty headaches when you are trying to game.
I have trouble gaming on a laptop, and as you chillun age, you will discover the same thing.
I can't play on a netbook.
A tablet is Right Out.
Smartphone?  bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

If you intend to market to the US, the UK and Europe, you ignore the Aging of the West to your peril.  As the West ages, and people discover the sort of setup that my father in law and I have, I would expect PC Games to get more, not less, popular.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 09, 2012, 04:04:53 AM
with a padded lapdesk I got from an Old Fart catalog

I want to buy stuff from the Old Fart catalog! Heh :D

All kidding aside, you're absolutely correct. In my case though, while I have no real dexterity issues, I don't like touch-screen interfaces when compared to ye olde keyboard. For one thing, fingerprints on a Keyboard are all but invisible. Get em on a touch-screen, and I go OCD in a hurry.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 09, 2012, 04:52:14 AM
I'm not seeing any damage control efforts from NCSoft. We're hitting them with everything we have, and there's no opposition.

Are we beneath their notice? Their declining stock belies that. Several times our efforts have immediately preceeded a tumble.

Perhaps they're not answering because what we're saying is true, and answering would only draw more attention.

But then, they would mount a media compaign touting them and their recent efforts, trying to outshout us, especially before Christmas.

It feels like they're turtle-ing, trying to hide behind language barriers until this blows over. I wish we had more ears and voices in Korea.

What's their next move?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kosmos on December 09, 2012, 04:53:27 AM
Here's another thing that all those analysts are not taking into account.

The West is getting older.

Even worse for NCsoftcore... their own analysts appear to be oblivious to the fact that the gamer population of the East is aging even faster than that of the West. The Eastern gaming population is also becoming increasingly female. Yet NCsoftcore seems more inclined than ever to market to twitch-gaming impulse-buying porn-loving young males. Of course... that particular demographic is notoriously easy to get money out of in exchange for junk. Which seems to be increasingly what NCsoftcore has to sell. So maybe they do know what they're doing.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 09, 2012, 04:57:55 AM
If you intend to market to the US, the UK and Europe, you ignore the Aging of the West to your peril.  As the West ages, and people discover the sort of setup that my father in law and I have, I would expect PC Games to get more, not less, popular.

I still have the reflexes and the dexterity for consoles and portables (though probably won't for much longer), but consoles bore me now. Even when I compare it to the games I used to play at that child, they feel dumbed down. Even simple side-scrollers that don't need a plot more than 2 paragraphs long, are nowhere near as challenging. Just like traditional entertainment media now, everything seems to be targeting the K-8 crowd, treating anyone older than that as an afterthought.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 09, 2012, 05:49:57 AM
i dont do consoles much anymore because they are just so damned expensive when compared to PC gaming

consoles require: TV (anywhere from $100-3000), console and accessories (~$400 +/- 100), games (~$60 +/- 10 each), and the required need to upgrade when a new console comes out to play new games (usually new system out every 2-3 years)

a PC requires: 1 upgrade ~5 +/- 2 years to keep up with the current games (or if parts die) which runs ~$1500-2000 for high end components (assuming brand new full upgrade, individual parts vary and can be less), can play pretty much any game regardless of generation so your games dont become "obsolete" after 2 generations, and can get games MUCH cheaper (IE through steam very easy to buy most games <$20 with how often they do sales, even on new $60 games)


then when you get to the portability issue, a laptop can run the same computer games you play at home, while your console is chained to your TV and thus required a different system rebuying the same games, or getting different games for about the same price as the regular console.


i havent touched a console is close to 2 years now because its just so much more convenient and cheaper to play on PC
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 09, 2012, 05:57:29 AM
I'm not seeing any damage control efforts from NCSoft. We're hitting them with everything we have, and there's no opposition.

Are we beneath their notice? Their declining stock belies that. Several times our efforts have immediately preceeded a tumble.

Perhaps they're not answering because what we're saying is true, and answering would only draw more attention.

But then, they would mount a media compaign touting them and their recent efforts, trying to outshout us, especially before Christmas.

It feels like they're turtle-ing, trying to hide behind language barriers until this blows over. I wish we had more ears and voices in Korea.

What's their next move?

Well there are a number of answers to that, and without having an insider on the ground in NCSoft Seoul, we are not going to know.

It could very well be that we are considered to unimportant to bother with.  That could be because we are Western and a fraction of their market.  Or, because we really are NOT affecting the stock plunge that much (there are a number of factors affecting it at the moment, although I think the fact that it dropped 12,500 won after the article in the Korean Times has a good 60% chance of being a solid hit on our part).   Or, because we are insignificant because we are (or were) mere customers, and our job is to sit down, shut up, and take what we are given.

It could be because they are still following the H & K strategy of hiding in the bunker.  It's one they are comfortable with, as a culture.  Hide from something long enough, it will get tired and go away. 

It also could be because (WARNING!  DONNING TIN FOIL HAT!) what we have here is a war invisible to us going on between Nexon and NCSoft, in which Nexon is attempting to gobble up its nearest competitor.  I do have some interesting facts.  Speculations I will put in [] brackets.

Taek Jin Kim divorced his first wife recently [early this year?].  He had to give her half of his 60% share of NCSoft as part of the settlement. [we don't know what happened to that 30% of NCSoft stock]

He then married his second wife, who is a former Nexon executive.

He then sold half of his remaining stock to Nexon.  [rumor has it he would like to sell the rest]

Second wife is put in charge of NCSoft West.

Guild Wars sells 2 million copies, although they were expecting it to sell 6 million, based on the number of sold copies of GW1.  One reason it only sold two million is because they shut off sales, claiming they weren't ready to handle that many all at once, thus chopping off a lot of impulse purchases.  [WTF? you boast that you EXPECT to sell 6 million copies and you aren't ready to handle that number when you go on sale??]

NCSoft West unilaterally murders CoH.

[Now, if I were going to try to take over a company, the easiest way is through the bedroom, not the boardroom.  CoH would just be collateral damage in a greater war.  Distract the CEO.  Give bad advice.  Drive stock prices down, buy the stock when it bottoms out through proxies until you have the majority share, then come in and fire everyone that isn't one of your stooges.]
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 09, 2012, 06:34:10 AM
I feel like I need to bathe after merely reading that! Fascinating speculation.

Anyway, my best guess: NCSoft's winding up for some sort of counterpunch. Not directly at us, mind. I anticipate some PR blitz in Korea to shore up their stock hits and negate our efforts. And our campaign's hamstrung so long as we don't have Korean speakers working with us. They're anathema here... but we need to hit 'em there.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 09, 2012, 07:29:48 AM
Well there are a number of answers to that, and without having an insider on the ground in NCSoft Seoul, we are not going to know.

It could very well be that we are considered to unimportant to bother with.  That could be because we are Western and a fraction of their market.  Or, because we really are NOT affecting the stock plunge that much (there are a number of factors affecting it at the moment, although I think the fact that it dropped 12,500 won after the article in the Korean Times has a good 60% chance of being a solid hit on our part).   Or, because we are insignificant because we are (or were) mere customers, and our job is to sit down, shut up, and take what we are given.

It could be because they are still following the H & K strategy of hiding in the bunker.  It's one they are comfortable with, as a culture.  Hide from something long enough, it will get tired and go away. 

It also could be because (WARNING!  DONNING TIN FOIL HAT!) what we have here is a war invisible to us going on between Nexon and NCSoft, in which Nexon is attempting to gobble up its nearest competitor.  I do have some interesting facts.  Speculations I will put in [] brackets.

Taek Jin Kim divorced his first wife recently [early this year?].  He had to give her half of his 60% share of NCSoft as part of the settlement. [we don't know what happened to that 30% of NCSoft stock]

He then married his second wife, who is a former Nexon executive.

He then sold half of his remaining stock to Nexon.  [rumor has it he would like to sell the rest]

Second wife is put in charge of NCSoft West.

Guild Wars sells 2 million copies, although they were expecting it to sell 6 million, based on the number of sold copies of GW1.  One reason it only sold two million is because they shut off sales, claiming they weren't ready to handle that many all at once, thus chopping off a lot of impulse purchases.  [WTF? you boast that you EXPECT to sell 6 million copies and you aren't ready to handle that number when you go on sale??]

NCSoft West unilaterally murders CoH.

[Now, if I were going to try to take over a company, the easiest way is through the bedroom, not the boardroom.  CoH would just be collateral damage in a greater war.  Distract the CEO.  Give bad advice.  Drive stock prices down, buy the stock when it bottoms out through proxies until you have the majority share, then come in and fire everyone that isn't one of your stooges.]
I agree, I think the article in The Korea Times made the average person in Korea aware of what NCSoft did and on face value, shutting down a game that was making money, seems odd for a company whose 2nd quarter was in the red for the first time in years.  Bad press from a widely read local source (as oppose to US/EU MMO gaming websites) about a game that was not really known about in their gaming press sort of added fuel to the sell off which had died down for a while.

As for GW2 sales.  Well GW1 sold 7 million boxes over all four expansions.  A person buying the original game and each expansion separately counts as 4 boxes where their last box edition which contained all four counts only as one.  So it's kind of tough to extrapolate how many GW1 fans were just waiting to hop into GW2.  Plus as far as I can tell it hasn't been released in Asia, or at the very least their servers are completely segregated from the American and European servers because that's all I can see when I log in to GW2.  NCSoft's IR slideshow of Aug 2012 states that the Asia launch would take place in approximately 12 months after the US/EU launch (page/slide 17).

Now supposedly ArenaNet has five years worth of expansions outlined and I'm not sure if they are going to do paid expansions or not.  Right now the world consists of a single continent so there is always new frontiers over the horizon without the need of major global disaster to change the face of the planet or opening up rifts to other worlds.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kosmos on December 09, 2012, 07:32:53 AM
Well there are a number of answers to that, and without having an insider on the ground in NCSoft Seoul, we are not going to know.

It could very well be that we are considered to unimportant to bother with.  That could be because we are Western and a fraction of their market.  Or, because we really are NOT affecting the stock plunge that much (there are a number of factors affecting it at the moment, although I think the fact that it dropped 12,500 won after the article in the Korean Times has a good 60% chance of being a solid hit on our part).   Or, because we are insignificant because we are (or were) mere customers, and our job is to sit down, shut up, and take what we are given.

It could be because they are still following the H & K strategy of hiding in the bunker.  It's one they are comfortable with, as a culture.  Hide from something long enough, it will get tired and go away.

It also could be because (WARNING!  DONNING TIN FOIL HAT!) what we have here is a war invisible to us going on between Nexon and NCSoft, in which Nexon is attempting to gobble up its nearest competitor.  I do have some interesting facts.  Speculations I will put in [] brackets.

Taek Jin Kim divorced his first wife recently [early this year?].  He had to give her half of his 60% share of NCSoft as part of the settlement. [we don't know what happened to that 30% of NCSoft stock]

He then married his second wife, who is a former Nexon executive.

He then sold half of his remaining stock to Nexon.  [rumor has it he would like to sell the rest]

Second wife is put in charge of NCSoft West.

Guild Wars sells 2 million copies, although they were expecting it to sell 6 million, based on the number of sold copies of GW1.  One reason it only sold two million is because they shut off sales, claiming they weren't ready to handle that many all at once, thus chopping off a lot of impulse purchases.  [WTF? you boast that you EXPECT to sell 6 million copies and you aren't ready to handle that number when you go on sale??]

NCSoft West unilaterally murders CoH.

[Now, if I were going to try to take over a company, the easiest way is through the bedroom, not the boardroom.  CoH would just be collateral damage in a greater war.  Distract the CEO.  Give bad advice.  Drive stock prices down, buy the stock when it bottoms out through proxies until you have the majority share, then come in and fire everyone that isn't one of your stooges.]

I think you need to check the integrity of your conductive cranial prophylactic. Some bad info is getting in. Did you remember to cover the ears completely and make sure it comes all the way down to the base of the skull in the back? I find mine gets leaky if I don't.

To the best of my knowledge and ability to quickly check on the 'Net...

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Beltor on December 09, 2012, 08:17:56 AM
It sounds like a merger was planned between Nexxon and NCSoft that may change into a takeover. COH was just caught in the crossfire.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 09, 2012, 12:11:00 PM
Kosmos, it was Brian Clayton who told me that Song-yee Yoon was the CEO of NCSoftcore West; I'm going to assume that since he was reporting to her, he knows what he is talking about.

At the moment, I cannot remember where the information that she was once a Nexon Exec came from, but it was in an article in the gaming press, and no one corrected it.

The information that he had split a 60% share with the ex was extrapolation from an article that said he had to "split" his share with his ex-wife.  I assumed (incorrectly, obviously) that since he had 30% he must have originally held 60%.  "Split" to me implies "divided in half."

I would love to know where in that timeline Yoon was promoted to CEO of NCSoftcore West--before, or after selling the stock to Nexon?

I did warn you it was a tin-foil-hat conspiracy theory.  This is what happens when you give a writer very little data to go on.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 09, 2012, 12:42:55 PM
Kosmos, it was Brian Clayton who told me that Song-yee Yoon was the CEO of NCSoftcore West; I'm going to assume that since he was reporting to her, he knows what he is talking about.

At the moment, I cannot remember where the information that she was once a Nexon Exec came from, but it was in an article in the gaming press, and no one corrected it.

The information that he had split a 60% share with the ex was extrapolation from an article that said he had to "split" his share with his ex-wife.  I assumed (incorrectly, obviously) that since he had 30% he must have originally held 60%.  "Split" to me implies "divided in half."

I would love to know where in that timeline Yoon was promoted to CEO of NCSoftcore West--before, or after selling the stock to Nexon?

I did warn you it was a tin-foil-hat conspiracy theory.  This is what happens when you give a writer very little data to go on.

Behold the trap of the writer. Give us too little data, and our brains start manufacturing their own...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on December 09, 2012, 06:35:52 PM
As far as I can tell, Kosmos' rendering of the facts there is in accord with what I dug up when I was trawling for meme-worthy images and information (and posted bits of in this thread (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6124.msg73738.html#msg73738) )

I've found some slight further info about TJKim's missus, by remembering it seems to be pot luck in many articles when it comes to what order Korean names are written in English. Here's an article that goes into a bit of NCsoft origins and backstory :-

Rewriting Korea’s game industry (http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.aspx?aid=2929865)

The article is from Dec 2010 and shows a photo of Yoon Song-yee as "Vice President and CSO, NCsoft". Next to her photo is one of Lee Jae-ho who is listed as "Vice President and CFO, NCsoft, CEO NCsoft West". I also dug this up on him :
"Lee Jae Ho has been Vice President and Director of NCsoft Corporation since March 19, 2010. Lee used to work for Arthur Andersen, United Nations and Samsung Securities. Lee holds a Bachelor's degree in Business Administration and a Master of Business Administration from Seoul National University, Korea."

(CEO...CFO...CSO...gotta love all those strings of "Chief" titles, eh? Given the managerial stranglehold the execs in NCsoft seem to have over the poor peons who work for them, I wouldn't be at all surprised if those titles are mostly titular and could all be replaced with 'Baron' - but I digress...)

Zoominfo lists Song-yee Yoon as "Vice President and Chief Strategy Officer" and lists her contact address as NCsoft's Austin TX office.

Oh, and while I'm raking old facts, here's where Kim Taek-jin divorced his first wife -
NCsoft CEO hands over 3.84 pct stake to wife in apparent divorce. (http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-136826183/ncsoft-ceo-hands-over.html)

And here are two more background articles from our favorite Korean media outlet, the good ol' Korean Times :-
First, the Kim-Yoon marriage -
Kim, Yoon secretly married (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/special/2009/04/178_26722.html)
And here's TJKim giving his missus a high-flying job in hopes of sending NCsoft soaring into the high international heavens...yeah, right, lol
Labor of Love or for Profit? (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/bizfocus/2012/11/326_33889.html)

I particularly liked this statement in that last article :-
"Strengthening its international business will be critical for the future of NCsoft, the kingpin of Korea's online game industry, which is now desperate of new growth out of the saturated local market." - can I hear a LOL folks? ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 09, 2012, 07:08:43 PM
"Lee used to work for Arthur Andersen...."

Whoa, waitasec, the same Arthur Anderson accounting firm convicted of helping Enron with their shenanigans, then went bankrupt? Dear Lord! That is one stone-cold rotten-to-the-bones woman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron)

That's like... the business equivalent of finding out she was a member of the Nazi party.

"How many Arthur Anderson accountants does it take to change a light bulb?

Three! One to change the bulb and one to rip you off."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 09, 2012, 08:46:00 PM
You can't paint the entire company, Arthur Andersen, with the Enron mess.  It was a very large company with lots of branches and I'll say most of them were fully on the up and up.  Enron was a case where one group, including it's senior management, soiled the name of the entire company for all of it's 85,000 employees.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 09, 2012, 08:54:30 PM
What I found interesting in those linked articles was this bit.

"Yoon is especially known as the "genius'' who received her Ph.D from the Massachusetts Institute of Technoloy (MIT) at the age of 24. She inspired a popular TV series ``KAIST'' starring actress Lee Na-young as an engineering progidy."

They have an 81 episode drama about;

"A situation drama on students of Korea Advanced Science and Technology. The story of love, agony and endless research of the top brains in the field of science. It also presents a role model of a free, creative youth and their professors dictating what education should be. K.A.I.S.T stands for Korea Advanced Institute of Science & Technology."

I take it they didn't make them out to be a bunch of socially inept misfits.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Tubbius on December 09, 2012, 09:26:49 PM
This is getting heavy.  :o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 09, 2012, 09:59:12 PM
Holy crap, I just walked into an episode of "White Collar", minus the cool-factor and the commercials.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Axonius on December 09, 2012, 10:22:55 PM
Lots of valid theories here, but there is one more possibility that I haven't seen anyone mention...Is it possible that there is some dirty laundry in the CoX reported financials?

While we all loved the game, do we really know for certain that it was in fact making money and not some fancy financial account involved?

I mean, NCSofts behavior  as it relates to the CoX decisions, is exactly in line with the behavior of a company that is trying to cover up something.

Like everyone else, I'm still trying to make sense of this.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Turjan on December 09, 2012, 10:25:28 PM
Dear Lord! That is one stone-cold rotten-to-the-bones woman.

He's a bloke, this Lee Jae-ho. Here's the photo from the article :-

(https://i.imgur.com/kOhN0.jpg)

I didn't know about the Enron connection, Colette...most enlightening! If their Chief Financial Officer was involved in that, it might explain how so many weird figures show up in their accounting reports - and how ArenaNet doesn't in fact seem to show up at all for years. I believe that's what they called in the Enron incident : "creative accounting" ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 09, 2012, 10:45:56 PM
Whoops, yeah! Got the two confused. Need a playbook.

"You can't paint the entire company, Arthur Andersen, with the Enron mess."

Guilt by association fallacy, I know. Quite correct. Still...

"If their Chief Financial Officer was involved in that, it might explain how so many weird figures show up in their accounting reports..."

First I've heard of that. Let's keep the possibility of financial shenanigans in mind without leaping to unfounded conclusions.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kosmos on December 09, 2012, 10:54:00 PM
Kosmos, it was Brian Clayton who told me that Song-yee Yoon was the CEO of NCSoftcore West; I'm going to assume that since he was reporting to her, he knows what he is talking about.

I had assumed you had inside info and I was mainly looking for when she took over the CEO role at NCsoftcore West and couldn't find anything at all about it. Since Lee was NCsoftcore CFO and NCSW CEO at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if they just moved the latter title from Lee to Yoon without an announcement. I think it more likely that she was simply in the chain-of-command as CSO between Clayton and Lee after they did away with a discrete NCSW CEO and started running the show from Korea.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 09, 2012, 11:37:44 PM
He's a bloke, this Lee Jae-ho. Here's the photo from the article :-

(https://i.imgur.com/kOhN0.jpg)

I didn't know about the Enron connection, Colette...most enlightening! If their Chief Financial Officer was involved in that, it might explain how so many weird figures show up in their accounting reports - and how ArenaNet doesn't in fact seem to show up at all for years. I believe that's what they called in the Enron incident : "creative accounting" ;)
The only Enron connection was that he once worked for Arthur Anderson and there was a cover up at Arthur Anderson about Enron.  Arthur Anderson was a world wide accounting agency with 85,000 employees.  Unless Colette has something that ties him to Enron, it's simple guilt by association.  It would be equivalent to blaming a chemical engineer working for Dow Chemical in the US for the Bhopal Tragedy.

Edit: Okay, how did I double post this?  What was I thinking?  Sorry Colette, didn't mean to pile on.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 10, 2012, 12:44:03 AM


While we all loved the game, do we really know for certain that it was in fact making money and not some fancy financial account involved?



What we have is a logical extension of previous behavior.

In the shutdowns of Exteel, Dungeon Runners, Auto Assault, and especially Tabula Rasa, NCSoft loudly proclaimed that they not only were not making any money, they were losing money.  With CoH there has not been a single word along those lines.  Which suggests that they were at least breaking even, or making a modest profit.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 10, 2012, 12:50:35 AM
With CoH there has not been a single word along those lines.  Which suggests that they were at least breaking even, or making a modest profit.

And with this previous history, I imagine Paragon Studios would have been far more paranoid about their jobs than they EVER showed themselves to be.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 10, 2012, 07:36:11 AM
...
While we all loved the game, do we really know for certain that it was in fact making money and not some fancy financial account involved?

I mean, NCSofts behavior  as it relates to the CoX decisions, is exactly in line with the behavior of a company that is trying to cover up something.

As others have said, they closed down other games and gave reasons openly as to why. Among those reasons was the lack of income. I have heard it stated here many times that CoX was one of it's most profitable ventures inside North America. It would be out of their norm to close down a game because it was not making money and not admit it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 10, 2012, 05:01:26 PM
Especially since most of us would probably have nodded sadly but understood if it had been announced (and verified) that it was "not making money."

The outrage here is not over just the closure. The outrage is over its inexplicability and the refusal to make any effort to help the fans save their game. While there will always be people who rage that water is wet and that they people can't flap their arms hard enough to fly and carry the ragers with them, most of us are not that unreasonable. If it was truly a problem of the game just losing money, the volume and organization of our efforts would be deflated by the fact that we are, in the end, reasonable people who simply want to be treated reasonably.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 10, 2012, 05:41:24 PM
"Unless Colette has something that ties him to Enron, it's simple guilt by association."

Yes, as I conceded earlier. Nevertheless, involvement with Arthur Anderson is worth noting.

I have a question for the technically minded among us.

Assuming no development staff and no future updates, a single server with tech staff, (I've heard this called "life support mode") what is the absolute minimum monthly cost to allow City of Heroes to run? How much money does CoH need to break even under those conditions?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mandrake on December 10, 2012, 08:27:08 PM
If you were to run on 'life support mode' ... you could only handle a few hundred to possibly a few thousand players at a time depending on how efficient the code is and how awesome the server is. Probably can virtualize everything you need on one, I imagine a couple are needed for all the database and game server transactions going on. I'm sure it is probably designed somewhat modular in this way - I could be wrong.

If it were truly just a single server - you could just have one or two people monitoring the server to do restarts and maintenance. Possibly be regular restarts due to the likely constant queue to get in.

All in all it wouldn't cost much of anything. Active server staffed location (server farms that have people onsite at all times and will perform certain tasks that are included with the monthly fees) Probably around $300 - $500 USD per month cost. Which you would most definitely cover if you still wanted to charge even a minimal fee for access.

Just a matter of doing it or not.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 10, 2012, 08:38:18 PM
In other words, NCSoft could have pared down costs and continued running CoH for a trivial sum, easily recouped. Okay, we have verifiable mathematic proof that these guys are douchebags.

Meanwhile, they seem to have stabilized a bit. http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) Let's see how they hold up against our next salvo.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 11, 2012, 12:32:28 AM
In other words, NCSoft could have pared down costs and continued running CoH for a trivial sum, easily recouped. Okay, we have verifiable mathematic proof that these guys are douchebags.

Meanwhile, they seem to have stabilized a bit. http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS) Let's see how they hold up against our next salvo.

You may fire when ready. /Tarkin
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 04:41:34 AM
Quote
Guild Wars sells 2 million copies, although they were expecting it to sell 6 million, based on the number of sold copies of GW1.  One reason it only sold two million is because they shut off sales, claiming they weren't ready to handle that many all at once, thus chopping off a lot of impulse purchases.  [WTF? you boast that you EXPECT to sell 6 million copies and you aren't ready to handle that number when you go on sale??]

Allegedly they shut off sales because the servers were so overloaded that players zoned in and all but could not move, for the lag. GENIUS!!

Still a very poorly thought out move, but this IS NCStupid we're talking about - so what else would we expect. You don't shut down the kitchen when the hotcakes are flying out the door, that's just stupid.

Do these people even have actual business degrees, as opposed to hanging any shingle under their names that they feel like, because INTERNET and who will know, anyways? Do they even have a clue about basic human psychology? No and no again, is my guess.

They know about as much about business as I do about neurosurgery.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 11, 2012, 04:49:33 AM
"NCStupid?!" OOoohhh... I feel new memes brewing! Bless'ya, Illusionss!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blitzwing on December 11, 2012, 04:55:57 AM
They HAVE been exceptionally quiet in the last 3-4 days...as far as I can tell, they've stopped responding to anything....

...given how hard and repeatedly we've been hitting them, they're either in a punch-drunk state of confusion...or are potentially gearing up for a nasty counter-strike....  *ponders*
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: MishaFox on December 11, 2012, 05:39:24 AM
This may seem like stating the obvious but it's plain to me that something is seriously messed up at NCSoft. Something is going on in the background that we aren't aware of. I think something big is about to happen there. I feel like a person in Hawaii on Dec 6, 1941.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 11, 2012, 05:41:40 AM
This may seem like stating the obvious but it's plain to me that something is seriously messed up at NCSoft. Something is going on in the background that we aren't aware of. I think something big is about to happen there. I feel like a person in Hawaii on Dec 6, 1941.

Then let us hope the bombers are going the other direction this time.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 06:53:29 AM
Allegedly they shut off sales because the servers were so overloaded that players zoned in and all but could not move, for the lag. GENIUS!!

Still a very poorly thought out move, but this IS NCStupid we're talking about - so what else would we expect. You don't shut down the kitchen when the hotcakes are flying out the door, that's just stupid.

Except that isn't what happened.

NCsoft forced Anet to release GW2 before they were ready to do so.

It was Anet's decision to shut off sales because their infrastructure was groaning - but at no time was anyone unable to move from lag. Most of the problems had to do with zoning parties into the same instances, overflow servers becoming glitched, and glitched events.

Anet is a great dev team and had repeatedly told us through the long betas that they wouldn't even release hype about systems they didn't have working yet to the general public. Anet's decision to shut down sales is because they actually give a crap about their player's experiences, it was not a decision of NCsoft's.

NCsoft's stupid move was to shove GW2 into a release just to shore up their terrible Q3 numbers.

I'd also like to see a cite on the "expecting 6 million in sales" thing. I hear it thrown around, but as someone who was avidly watching Anet through the beta process, I never saw it. People may be confusing it with the announcement that the GW franchise as a whole sold 6 million units as of April 2009, but I could be wrong, I'd love to see a link.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 11, 2012, 09:09:22 AM
I'd also like to see a cite on the "expecting 6 million in sales" thing. I hear it thrown around, but as someone who was avidly watching Anet through the beta process, I never saw it. People may be confusing it with the announcement that the GW franchise as a whole sold 6 million units as of April 2009, but I could be wrong, I'd love to see a link.

I found the link to an interview with an NCSoft flack when I was searching three months ago when the shutdown was first announced.  NCSofte definitely said confidently they figured on selling 6 million boxes, and part of the reason their stock dropped after the release was that it was only 2 million.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 01:34:30 PM
I found the link to an interview with an NCSoft flack when I was searching three months ago when the shutdown was first announced.  NCSofte definitely said confidently they figured on selling 6 million boxes, and part of the reason their stock dropped after the release was that it was only 2 million.

I would really love to see it, no snark, seriously.

Not like it would SURPRISE me to find NCsoft blowing smoke up its own ass as Anet's expense, all things considered, y'know? :-/ But I'd like to see it just so I can have a cite to point at. I can't find anything with that number.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 02:05:43 PM
Then let us hope the bombers are going the other direction this time.

The bombers have already been here, there is nothing left here for them to hit. Gotta think of it like that.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 02:11:54 PM
Quote
It was Anet's decision to shut off sales because their infrastructure was groaning - but at no time was anyone unable to move from lag

People were experiencing extreme lag -because- the servers were so overloaded. I saw a tutorial video on YouTube where someone was demonstrating how to roll a new character over there, when they zoned into the game there were easily 100-150 characters standing en masse at the zone-in location. It looked like a subway platform.

No, the official reason was not "people cannot move from lag." But that's a logical side-effect of a massively overloaded server.

I waited to roll a character until CoX shut down, because not only did I want to enjoy CoX till the last minute with no distractions, I wanted to have room to move once I zoned in. Which did work.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 03:46:31 PM
I waited to roll a character until CoX shut down, because not only did I want to enjoy CoX till the last minute with no distractions, I wanted to have room to move once I zoned in. Which did work.

And I rolled my characters the moment head start was available and played every day, and never ever experienced that level of lag.

Yes, the servers were crowded, but they never hit that level of performance issue. Someone with a crappy computer making a youtube video doesn't mean much.

It sure would be nice if some people could Save COH without continually bashing GW2.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 11, 2012, 03:56:02 PM
Well, with all the fury directed at NCStupid, no surprise everything they run is getting caught in the crossfire, no matter the quality.

Soon as CoH is liberated, we'll forget and move on, and GW2 can continue... until it gets the axe in another fit of caprice.

They've regained their losses and stabilized. I don't like that.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 04:49:19 PM
It sure would be nice if some people could Save COH without continually bashing GW2.

I think you're a little overly sensitive on this. Discussing GW2's launch issues and NCStupid's questionable decision to limit new player downloads of the game because their servers were were emitting sparks and small bits of fire, like an Arachnos base map about to explode [we've all been on those maps... "meltdown imminent!"], is not "bashing the game." Its honest statements about a stupid problem that should have been foreseen months before launch of the game. You'd think it'd be all about giving people playing a new game the maxium bonding experience... but no.

All of this isn't exactly making NCSilly look any smarter. And that is the point here, not some imaginary "bashing." I am also playing GW2, but I realize that its not going to be met with shining praise here on Titan. It is also in no way, shape or form safe from the axe any time NCStupid gets another bright idea. I play with that foremost in mind.

Quote
Someone with a crappy computer making a youtube video doesn't mean much.

When the person in question is reporting for a MMO website, yeah it kinda does.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Little Green Frog on December 11, 2012, 04:51:54 PM
Well, with all the fury directed at NCStupid, no surprise everything they run is getting caught in the crossfire, no matter the quality.

Soon as CoH is liberated, we'll forget and move on, and GW2 can continue... until it gets the axe in another fit of caprice.

They've regained their losses and stabilized. I don't like that.

I'd be careful with this bloodlust thing I see sometimes popping over on these boards. It doesn't really help our cause and may put off people that would otherwise be sympathetic to it. I know, NCsoft isn't exactly our best buddy right now, but hey, I have already seen accusations of a smear campaign going on against them on the talk page in their Wikipedia article. So please cool your heads a little bit.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 04:53:21 PM
They've regained their losses and stabilized. I don't like that.

Ups and downs happen; it is the long term that needs worrying about.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 04:53:38 PM
I think you're a little overly sensitive on this. Discussing GW2's launch issues and NCStupid's questionable decision to limit new player downloads of the game because their servers were were emitting sparks and small bits of fire, like an Arachnos base map about to explode [we've all been on those maps... "meltdown imminent!"], is not "bashing the game." Its honest statements about a stupid problem that should have been foreseen months before launch of the game. You'd think it'd be all about giving people playing a new game the maxium bonding experience... but no.

Except that isn't true, so yeah, it's bashing. And going back through your post history, you haven't had much good to say about that game, just a lot of talk about how crappy and boring it is.

It doesn't exactly lend you an air of neutrality.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 05:01:00 PM
I'd be careful with this bloodlust thing I see sometimes popping over on these boards. It doesn't really help our cause and may put off people that would otherwise be sympathetic to it. I know, NCsoft isn't exactly our best buddy right now, but hey, I have already seen accusations of a smear campaign going on against them on the talk page in their Wikipedia article. So please cool your heads a little bit.

This exactly.

My GW2 guild is full of ex-COH players, some of whom were there right until the end, and some of whom quit playing years ago but still hold the game in their hearts and were devastated to learn of its impending closure.

They won't come here, they won't participate in this movement, specifically because of crap like this. Heck, GG, who is the leader of one of the Plan Z projects, posted on the COH forums that the failure of GW2 and the closure of NCsoft is necessarily part of the stated goals. Whether or not her opinion is a widely held leadership position or not, it's certainly the impression that one gets.

People who've just lost one home aren't going to flock to help out the people trying to burn their new one down.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 11, 2012, 05:09:07 PM
People who've just lost one home aren't going to flock to help out the people trying to burn their new one down.

I know a lot of times over the years, some game annoying me or another made me wish downfall on it. When WoW stopped working on my machine and tech support kept blaming my computer when it was happening on my friends' systems as well, I wanted the whole thing to blow up. As an example. But having felt the death of a game, I don't think we should wish that on anybody.

Even DRM loving lore retconning scum suckers like bli-

So anyway, yeah, let's try to stay positive. Even if this means just not bashing on NCSoft for things that arent concrete facts, and keeping in mind arenanet =/= ncsoft  (which means we can call out NCSoft for a poor launch of GW2 if they forced it, but saying Arenanet should have its doors closed is a no-no) we really do want to stay the side that good, logical, sane people want to be on.

If we want anything more than just retribution, anyway.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 11, 2012, 05:10:11 PM
"I have already seen accusations of a smear campaign going on against them on the talk page in their Wikipedia article."

That would actually be true. We are telling the unpleasant truth about NCSoft, as loud as we possibly can. NCSoft would be well served to ask "why are our former customers so furious with us that they're waging a smear campaign?"

NCSoft callously and capriciously pulled the plug right after selling us a ton of updates, including "nature mastery" three days before the announcement. Their answers have been arrogant and condescending. We're not just kids upset because a toy's been taken from us. We're adults who have had a bellyful of corporate swindles, and we're not lying down and taking it anymore.

I am sorry if other NCSoft games like Guild Wars are being damaged by our actions, (well... not Blade and Soul. It's plain creepy!) but NCSoft will forevermore carefully consider when closing their games, so I'm confident we're actually contributing to Guild Wars' long-term survival and well-being.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 05:16:03 PM
I am sorry if other NCSoft games like Guild Wars are being damaged by our actions, (well... not Blade and Soul. It's plain creepy!) but NCSoft will forevermore carefully consider when closing their games, so I'm confident we're actually contributing to Guild Wars' long-term survival and well-being.

Agreed on all these points, actually. (B&S is creepy as hell to me!) It's why I'm still on these boards despite finding a home in GW2 - I honestly believe that our media blitz about COH has caused enough face-losing that they may hesitate to pull a similar move on other MMOs.

We didn't protest or quit playing COH when they closed 4 other MMOs, we all had our blinders on. I actually hope like hell that the fact this group raised our voices and screamed when it happened to us makes me think that NCsoft may have to ask themselves if they want to risk it happening again. Better to cut loose the studio than that - and Anet being cut loose would make me SO freaking happy.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Little Green Frog on December 11, 2012, 05:18:52 PM
"I have already seen accusations of a smear campaign going on against them on the talk page in their Wikipedia article."

That would actually be true. We are telling the unpleasant truth about NCSoft, as loud as we possibly can. NCSoft would be well served to ask "why are our former customers so furious with us that they're waging a smear campaign?"

Perpetrating a smear campaign and spreading the truth about company's questionable business practices are two different things. The former will not win us many friends and will only further damage our position. Think of what happens if Disney - or any other company we are hoping to take CoH over - sees how we are handling the game closure. Then imagine what they would think would happen if they stepped on our toes, which in business world sometimes happens. Do you think they would race to purchase the game with a buzzing wasp nest that our community is degrading into attached?

We're not just kids upset because a toy's been taken from us.

Good. Stop acting like you are, then.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Sekoia on December 11, 2012, 05:46:36 PM
I deleted a few posts.

Please refrain from calling someone a sock puppet unless you have something much more substantial to base that claim on than "they disagree with me" or "they aren't rabidly seeking the destruction of NCsoft".

It's also entirely inappropriate to tell people to get off the forums because you don't like what they have to say.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 11, 2012, 05:49:28 PM
Thank you, Sekoia.

I never like posts needing to be deleted or anything like that, but I think we really do need to stay positive here, and some things don't help...

But we can all just move on and stay positive in the future easily enough! :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: therain93 on December 11, 2012, 06:04:53 PM
Perpetrating a smear campaign and spreading the truth about company's questionable business practices are two different things. The former will not win us many friends and will only further damage our position. Think of what happens if Disney - or any other company we are hoping to take CoH over - sees how we are handling the game closure. Then imagine what they would think would happen if they stepped on our toes, which in business world sometimes happens. Do you think they would race to purchase the game with a buzzing wasp nest that our community is degrading into attached?
Yep, this exactly. 
I tossed a thread onto mmorpg.com (be warned, wear a thick flame-proof suit if you dare visit it) regarding the boycottncsoft.com website; not surprising, but the response was mixed with reactions coming from both ends of the spectrum.  One particular poster who was critical of the movement (or one particular poster actually) made a very important statement (although unjustified in that particular context and was eventually modded out): we DO represent the CoH community at large.  "Bad" behavior on the part of a few can smear all of us and have unexpected repercussions.  We all have to be level-headed in our approach to raising awareness of NCsoft's practices. 
 
There may be bloodlust in your heart, be keep a cool exterior and be thoughtful in your posting.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 11, 2012, 06:11:17 PM
Agreed on all these points, actually. (B&S is creepy as hell to me!) It's why I'm still on these boards despite finding a home in GW2 - I honestly believe that our media blitz about COH has caused enough face-losing that they may hesitate to pull a similar move on other MMOs.

We didn't protest or quit playing COH when they closed 4 other MMOs, we all had our blinders on. I actually hope like hell that the fact this group raised our voices and screamed when it happened to us makes me think that NCsoft may have to ask themselves if they want to risk it happening again. Better to cut loose the studio than that - and Anet being cut loose would make me SO freaking happy.

I for one have no hate for GW2 or Arenanet. I've been playing GW2 sporadically here and there. I've been impressed with the game a lot. It's very good. And I'll likely play more soon.

(I don't think it's anywhere NEAR as "groundbreaking" as a lot of people say. It's a high-fantasy MMO. That's not exactly genre busting. It has a lot of little quality of life upgrades that are nice and make the gameplay more convenient. And reward you more for sheer exploration than any other game other than COH. But that's about it.)

Some dear friends who bought the game on pre-order and jumped in early were raving about it and were about to drag me in.

And then Black Friday happened. And I regretfully told them I couldn't make that purchase or personally support the game monetarily in any way. I was disappointed, because I WANTED to play.

I'm serious. I COULD. NOT. DO. IT. I actually went down to a Gamestop and held the box in my hand for 15 minutes trying to convince myself to buy it for my friends sake. (Because in the case of at least one, it's the ONLY game they are now playing.)

But that NCSoft logo kept burning in my hand.

My friends surprised the heck out of me by chipping in and dividing up funds and bought me an account. "Call it an early Christmas Gift" was one response.

Well heck - what can you do? I can't refuse that gesture!

So yes. I'm in. And although an initial purchase was made on my behalf, I guess I technically stuck to my vow of never giving NCsoft another penny of my money.

I can do positive game reviews for them. If I was a video maker like Samuraiko I'd happily make videos of the gameplay and post on youtube and point out the cool things. I can learn the lore (and it's very interesting) and talk about it. And I can encourage COH players not to hate on them.

I can/would do all those things. But no money. None. Sorry. Can't.

Which is not to say I would refuse to support Arenanet IF THEY ESCAPED from NCSoft! If that happened I'd do a 180 and IMMEDIATELY do all I could to support them. Heck - I'd buy a whole new retail box if they did that! I like the game and the studio enough to wish them the best.

I don't think I'm alone or even in the minority here in my feelings. And there are plenty here who actually aren't as adamant about these sorts of things who have no problems making that purchase and enjoying GW2.

So please don't say Titan boards are a cesspool of hate for GW2. That's simply not true. We completely recognize that Arenanet is in a similar position as that of Paragon Studios. They're good people making a good game whose publisher may yet kill their game for no good reason.

If that happens, I'd like to think that Guild Wars players would JOIN us. We'd certainly fight on their behalf as well as ours!

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 06:18:11 PM
Except that isn't true, so yeah, it's bashing.

GuildWars2 did NOT have server load issues at launch, and the game did NOT become unavailable as a download for a time due to players overloading the servers? Really? Ok then.

I am tempted to ask why you think the download ability was really pulled, then, but I'm not going to continue to argue about this; it is at best academic. You seem unable to admit the veracity of anything except the aforementioned shining praise when it comes to this issue, so I will leave you in whatever version of MMO reality that you inhabit. Just don't get too attached, because when NCSilly gets the whim to burn it down around everyone's ears, they will do it and be damned to the hindermost. That includes you, btw. They don't care what you think either.

As for your other claim, I have never claimed neutrality. Far from it. I will continue to speak the truth regarding both my experiences in GW2, and my experiences as a customer who had her online home burned to the ground by NCStupid, and then sown with salt.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 06:22:39 PM
GuildWars2 did NOT have server load issues at launch, and the game did NOT become unavailable as a download for a time due to players overloading the servers? Really? Ok then.

I am tempted to ask wh you think the download ability was really pulled, then, but I'm not going to continue to argue about this; it is at best academic. You seem unable to admit the veracity of anything except the aforementioned shining praise when it comes to this issue, so I will leave you in whatever version of MMO reality that you inhabit. Just don't get too attached, because when NCSilly gets the whim to burn it down around everyone's ears, they will do it and be damned to the hindermost. That includes you, btw. They don't care what you think either.

As for your other claim, I have never claimed neutrality. Far from it. I will continue to speak the truth regarding both my experiences in GW2, and my experiences as a customer who had her online home burned to the ground by NCStupid, and then sown with salt.

Again, you are wrong and mischaracterizing me. I in no way think the game deserves nothing but praise. I will, however, defend it from misinformation and slander.

And no. The infrastructure DID have crowding issues, and the game DID stop sales. And as I've said in other posts, ARENANET cut off the sales. Not NCsoft. And not because they're stupid for "not selling hotcakes while they're flying out of the kitchen" - because they're smart enough to care about the playing experience of the people who already paid their money. It was Anet's decision, and I fully support it. I had friends who were late into the game and had to wait to buy it - it was sad they had to wait, but I agree with Anet that keeping the customers you HAVE happy is more important than selling a game that needs to be stabilized to a bunch of new people. Then you ruin everyone's experience and are more likely to lose repeat customers.

Those are the facts of the matter. It wasn't "NCstupid" to pull the digital downloads - it was good sense and good customer service, and it originated with Anet.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 06:31:04 PM
Perpetrating a smear campaign and spreading the truth about company's questionable business practices are two different things. The former will not win us many friends and will only further damage our position. Think of what happens if Disney - or any other company we are hoping to take CoH over - sees how we are handling the game closure. Then imagine what they would think would happen if they stepped on our toes, which in business world sometimes happens. Do you think they would race to purchase the game with a buzzing wasp nest that our community is degrading into attached?

I'd say that given the severity of what NCStupid did to us, that most people have been remarkably RESTRAINED in their comments and actions. And that the game's population is a lot kinder than that of many others. Imagine what WoW players would do if that game shut down! They would probably detonate a suitcase nuke at Blizzard's main headquarters! I exaggerate, but only slightly.

And I'd say NCSoft would be stupid to actually expect that they will escape the consequences of their actions unscathed. Hence: NCStupid.

As far as a "smear campaign," its a little more subtle than that. Its called poisoning the well, and it takes time. We here in the US just watched MONTHS of well-poisoning go on, in the name of a presidential election. Well-poisoning can be very, very effective. Or it can fail miserably.... hello, Mittens Romney I am looking at you. But regardless, this is a well-known political tactic and one I itend to employ to the fullest on this issue. In the nicest possible way, I will make certain that everyone knows exactly how NCSilly treats their customers. I just cannot sign on to continued deference to a company that has treated us like this; I just can't.

Every time I passed the magic store in Talos, some Freak NPC nearby would say: "Why be nice? What has it gotten you?" Maybe he was just a little bit right. I will miss CoX NPC chat a lot, but I digress.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Golden Girl on December 11, 2012, 07:21:07 PM
All NCsoft titles are legitimate targets.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 07:24:09 PM
All NCsoft titles are legitimate targets.

Like this.

Targets for WHAT? What is your goal?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Golden Girl on December 11, 2012, 07:26:39 PM
Like this.

Targets for WHAT? What is your goal?

Victory ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Little Green Frog on December 11, 2012, 07:26:49 PM
All NCsoft titles are legitimate targets.

Would you like dedicated players of other NCsoft games to lose access to their games just like we did lose access to City of Heroes because, well, we don't have access to City of Heroes anymore? Or am I missing a nuance here?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Golden Girl on December 11, 2012, 07:28:05 PM
Would you like dedicated players of other NCsoft games to lose access to their games just like we did lose access to City of Heroes because, well, we don't have access to City of Heroes anymore? Or am I missing a nuance here?

They can help us out.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Little Green Frog on December 11, 2012, 07:29:49 PM
They can help us out.

After we spoil their fun? Hardly likely. Of course if I'm reading what you're saying right, because frankly it's really hard to communicate this way.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 11, 2012, 07:34:56 PM
Going back to Sekoia's comment, is "sock puppet' another substitution? I'm thinking of compiling them for a drinking game.

(Also, I hope it's not rhyming slang, cuz, DA-YUM! I know tempers run a little high, but I've never seen anyone so moved as to use that word!)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 07:36:03 PM
They can help us out.

They can help you how? In what way? Before or after you "target" their game?

I mean, do you realize what you're representing here? You've gone total Crusader.

What constitutes "victory" for you that involves targetting other MMOs?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Sekoia on December 11, 2012, 07:42:27 PM
Going back to Sekoia's comment, is "sock puppet' another substitution?

Nope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet))
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 11, 2012, 07:43:33 PM
Nope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet))

WAY less fun! ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 11, 2012, 08:14:05 PM
i wouldnt want any of the other games shut down either, but under ncsoft its only a matter of time until they find the new "shiny" and decide to cut their other slack and pull out of the NA/EU market entirely (which means aion will prolly be their next target)

i want ncsoft to release coh,  and if they go down before that happens, i think that would be due entirely to ncsofts bad business decision making

most of what we are doing is trying to inform poeple whats going on, and get them to ask the same questions we are (specifically WHY the game was shut down when it was still profitable and stable)

ncsoft is coming under media scrutiny and they have barely responded to any of it, and its not cause they dont care, its cause they are under immense pressure and saying the wrong  thing could hurt them worse than what they already done

basically they already shot themselves in the foot, but are they gonna let it get infected and have to amputate or patch it up so it heals
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 11, 2012, 08:19:57 PM
Guys, while we've been talking, NCsoft has risen back to 157k won (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS).  over the weekend between Dec. 7th and Dec. 10th, they somehow rose from 145k to 152k.

I'm not happy about this development.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on December 11, 2012, 08:27:55 PM
After we spoil their fun? Hardly likely. Of course if I'm reading what you're saying right, because frankly it's really hard to communicate this way.

Frog,  I don't think any of us are looking to totally "shut down" ncsoft, but:

1) The business process that led to the CoH closure already puts every player at every NCSoft MMO at risk. NCSoft lacks the stability and customer-centric posture that is necessary to reliably deliver a service, and hosting the game is essentially a service.  NCSoft shut down a game that reliably made 24-26% of their NA/European sales-- one that made 40% of the sales in those regions in the quarter immediately preceding the announcement.  In that light, there is NO certainty or stability for any of their products.

2) We want this behavior to change.  Becoming more customer-centric means that when THEIR interests in a product have diminished, they seek a resolution that meets the USERS' best interests.  For us, that means finding a new home for CoH.  For those that come after us, it could mean spinning off titles to independents self-sufficient entities, selling titles, or publicly putting games into a very gradual "sunsetting" where the servers remain operational, but new content development becomes minimal until the community organically departs. 

3) To influence this change, though, we have carrots and sticks... and at this stage we're left with more sticks. NCSoft  apparently thinks that people don't care about these things, they won't do anything.  They'll "weather the storm," stick to their old ways, and continue to be a risk to players of their still-existing titles.  If NCSoft's sales falters, they may see that CUSTOMERS DO CARE about this, and realize that a big public reversal in policy may be to their strategic advantage.  If their investors become uncertain, then they'll realize that their investors may care and likewise seek to make changes.  The bigger and broader our impact the more likely they'll have to reconsider their processes. 

4) We still have a few carrots left, though.  The Disney initiative is one of them.  What better way for NCSoft to realize the folly of shutting down and destroying a revenue stream than Disney giving them a lump of cash for something they were ready to turn off forever?  What better way to make them reconsider other shutdown efforts?

Our goal isn't to hurt them.  Our goal is to bring about a change that benefits all gamers- CoH'ers, players of other NCSoft titles, and even other publishers' titles.  Developers learn from one another, and many will be looking at the practices, policies, and fallout put on display here.

So, please don't think that most of us just want to 'hurt NCSoft any way we can."  There's a purpose to the pain, and it does intend to benefit everyone.

However, PLEASE KEEP US HONEST here.  Many of us are hurting after the shutdown. Hurt people sometimes lash out irrationally, and I'm sure most of us have fallen into that mindset at one time or another. Some people here do focus only on the pain and lose sight of the bigger goal.  We need voices of moderation to keep that in check.




Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 08:28:23 PM
After we spoil their fun? Hardly likely. Of course if I'm reading what you're saying right, because frankly it's really hard to communicate this way.

As if we players could somehow spoil the fun for people playing other NCStupid games. Why would we even have to? NC will eventually do that for us; you can bet the farm on it. Aion and Lineage players beware.

That is actually the crux of what's being discussed.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 11, 2012, 08:28:33 PM
Dividing amongst ourselves, and hurting other gamers/games, will not help us "against" NCSoft, or for City of Heroes.

It's easy to be against something.

It's a lot harder to be FOR something.

In the same vein as not labeling eachothers as sock puppets, sell outs, sparkling pegacorns, etc, let's also try not to reach out for something to attack. Yes, NCSoft wronged us. Yes, I'd be happy for them to crash too. But we arent watching their stock prices because we all got together to watch the company die. "This is a Save Paragon City!" board, not a "Destroy NCSoft!" board, and its important to remember that. Yes, NCSoft having financial leverage against them helps us. Yes, them being in a less than advantageous position helps us.

But I think the more we start encouraging, accepting, going down the route of collateral damage, the less we look like something worth supporting - and this isn't really just about us.

CoH being shut down like it was represents a blow against gamers and -consumers- globally. It shows possible international bias causing harm to consumers who were in good faith supporting a product, and a company, only for everything to go away because someone wanted it to - not because it was harming shareholders or a company at large.

CoH being shut down when older games are still going, some not even in maintenance mode, is a blow against old-but-proffitable. Tripple A titles are not all that the gaming industry wants, or needs right now. They look shiny and pretty, but the smaller scene, indy games, lower budget titles, MMORPGs still making money but-not-WoW-levels, these all still have value.

This is a GAMER cause. This is a GAMER issue.

If someone came in here and said they were an Aion subscriber, as much as that game annoys me for its possible connections to the closing of CoH... if they were throwing their load in with us, I would happily accept them.

Because they could get hurt like us.

Because we were one internet, one gaming community, and one people who enjoy having fun by pressing buttons and having a character do stuff on screen.

Remembering this can only make us stronger :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on December 11, 2012, 08:37:14 PM
Guys, while we've been talking, NCsoft has risen back to 157k won (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS).  over the weekend between Dec. 7th and Dec. 10th, they somehow rose from 145k to 152k.

I'm not happy about this development.

It is to be expected, sadly. I note that although a certain article was released and caused the sudden drop to a new 52-week low, it hasn't penetrated into the minds of investors. If they characterize it as a western issue, caused by western minds not comprehending and thus complaining about Korean business practises, why should the investors in Korea care?

Our best bet would be to take it up with those responsible for international trade, showing them that the gulf in conceptual understanding caused by the cultural differences may well have further consequences on both sides of the border.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Twisted Toon on December 11, 2012, 08:38:25 PM
I think the least amount of time I've gone between new systems was about two years, but I have three systems running.

I just upgrade components in my gaming PC until the motherboard isn't able to support it anymore (recently replaced it due to the fact that I just couldn't get new AGP graphics cards anymore), but my last file server had been up and running since 1998 (and still on Windows 98) when I finally replaced it a couple of years ago.  My laptop is still doing just fine after a memory upgrade or two over the years and I think I've had it since '05 or '06.

Aside from the laptop, I've been buying components and building my own systems since about 2000.  Since they don't track new PC sales by looking at components, I've spent a whole lot of money they aren't taking into account.
Every computer I've had since 1997 was built from parts. Usually, I will swap the Hard Drive from the old one to the new one so I don't have to go through the whole re-installation of everything every time. This last computer I built I didn't do that.

But yeah, they haven't been counting my money spent on computers for over a decade.

a PC requires: 1 upgrade ~5 +/- 2 years to keep up with the current games (or if parts die) which runs ~$1500-2000 for high end components (assuming brand new full upgrade, individual parts vary and can be less), can play pretty much any game regardless of generation so your games dont become "obsolete" after 2 generations, and can get games MUCH cheaper (IE through steam very easy to buy most games <$20 with how often they do sales, even on new $60 games)
To quote a line from Independence Day, "Uh... Mr. President. That's not entirely accurate. "  I have a few PC games that just will not play on Operating Systems that are newer than Win98. It has to do with how they access memory and the changes in how the newer Operating Systems allow programs to access memory. I tend to not upgrade my OS until I'm forced to. In fact, I won't be able to play X-Com: Enemy Unknown (http://www.xcom.com/enemyunknown/ (http://www.xcom.com/enemyunknown/)) unless I get Vista or Windows 7

For the most part, though, you are correct.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: okami on December 11, 2012, 08:39:51 PM
If someone came in here and said they were an Aion subscriber, as much as that game annoys me for its possible connections to the closing of CoH... if they were throwing their load in with us, I would happily accept them.

IMHO Aion is probably next in line to feel the executioner's axe and not the GW games so it'd be in their self-interest to throw in with #SaveCoH before there needs to be a #SaveAion.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on December 11, 2012, 08:43:06 PM
Guys, while we've been talking, NCsoft has risen back to 157k won (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS).  over the weekend between Dec. 7th and Dec. 10th, they somehow rose from 145k to 152k.

I'm not happy about this development.

Don't worry too much.  Rallies are common enough.   

The fact is still that the day the news article came out, there was a substantial dip in NCSoft shares that took several days to rebound, even after normal stock-bolstering practices like layoff announcements were made.

We're getting hits that they've had to respond to... hits that came AFTER the game's shutdown, when they should be thinking that the worst was behind them... probably a lot bigger of a hit than they'd expect for a game that was less than 1% of their overall sales (and ~25% of their NA/European sales).  That will keep them on their toes and thinking about us... and as long as that's the case, then there's still the potential they'll take action.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 08:46:03 PM
Frog,  I don't think any of us are looking to totally "shut down" ncsoft, but:

GG is. She's said as much, she includes directly targetting their other MMOs, and she's the leader of one of the Plan Z projects the whole site is associated with. That's part of the problem. There's a sizable and vocal contingent here who are totally willing to burn the witch and take the whole village with her.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 11, 2012, 08:51:30 PM
Frankly want NCStupid gone, so that the inevitable CoX emulator can remain unchallenged.

If Arenanet has a suicide buy-back option, all the better. GW2 will remain untouched, NC can burn right down to the ground for all of me. And I'm absolutely serious. NC does not care about us.

Why would I care about such a bunch of killswitch-throwers, in return?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Feycat on December 11, 2012, 08:53:45 PM
Frankly want NCStupid gone, so that the inevitable CoX emulator can remain unchallenged.

If Arenanet has a suicide buy-back option, all the better. GW2 will remain untouched, NC can burn right down to the ground for all of me. And I'm absolutely serious. NC does not care about us.

Why would I care about such a bunch of killswitch-throwers, in return?

No one is suggested you should care about NCsoft.

What's being suggested is that we campaign with dignity, rather than acting like terrorist toddlers, and trying not to go out of our way to inflict the same pain we're facing on other games. It's not cool, and it's not the community we should be representing.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on December 11, 2012, 08:54:14 PM
GG is. She's said as much, she includes directly targetting their other MMOs, and she's the leader of one of the Plan Z projects the whole site is associated with. That's part of the problem. There's a sizable and vocal contingent here who are totally willing to burn the witch and take the whole village with her.

I should change that "any" to "many."   

I'm too used to taking some peoples' rhetoric with a grain of salt (or just ignoring them) but they are here and do add an unstable element that needs countered now and again.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: chasearcanum on December 11, 2012, 09:00:32 PM
Frankly want NCStupid gone, so that the inevitable CoX emulator can remain unchallenged.


That's not how it would work, though.

If NCSoft disintegrated overnight, its assets would be sold off, and we could certianly put in a bid for the CoH IP at that point.  If we got it, there'd be no need for a CoX emulator.   If we were outbid, though, we'd probably see a rather aggressive new owner pursuing the CoX emulator so their investment was protected, regardless of what they decided to do with it.

On top of that, the whole "disintegration/ sell off" process would be slow, resource intensive, and likely freeze any other effort to recover the city.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Little Green Frog on December 11, 2012, 09:03:12 PM
Frog,  I don't think any of us are looking to totally "shut down" ncsoft, but:

I was replying specifically to Golden Girl's vague comments that hinted at nuclear-like behavior. This kind of mindset concerns me because while currently it fuels the efforts to save City, in the end it will turn the whole IP into hot potato no sane company would be willing to handle. But I know what's what and I do agree more or less with all the points you make.

3) To influence this change, though, we have carrots and sticks... and at this stage we're left with more sticks. NCSoft  apparently thinks that people don't care about these things, they won't do anything.  They'll "weather the storm," stick to their old ways, and continue to be a risk to players of their still-existing titles.  If NCSoft's sales falters, they may see that CUSTOMERS DO CARE about this, and realize that a big public reversal in policy may be to their strategic advantage.  If their investors become uncertain, then they'll realize that their investors may care and likewise seek to make changes.  The bigger and broader our impact the more likely they'll have to reconsider their processes. 

With a small exception to this one. But before I begin, let me put things into perspective by reminding you that I started the thread where I pondered possible legal action against NCsoft. Not my proudest moment, but I am hurt too and thus am just as prone to have my judgement clouded as the next person on these boards.

But that being said, going all nuclear is not our best option not because it is not effective, but because it may actually be just a little bit too much. Running an MMO is a business and companies that want to stay on the market need to have a very pragmatical outlook. Currently I would imagine that CoH may be quite a prize being an already developed game with such a dedicated following. That sounds like a great business opportunity: just acquire the code base and the IP rights and there, instant profit. But imagine that the bloodlust takes a permanent hold and CoH story will actually spill to the wider audience with all the negativity and hate. What would a sane business person do after seeing all the bagagge they would inherit with the game? They would stop in their tracks and think what will happen if circumstances change and they will be unwilling or unable to keep the game alive themselves. They will quickly realize they will find themselves on the other end of the bat and become the new "NCstupid". That is very bad for business. So what are they going to do? They will back away. NCsoft will be hurt, but we will be left with nothing.

The important thing is to realize that while we all love CoH, it is not a goose that is laying golden eggs. No company will be willing to do everything just to get a hold of the IP. And because of that we need to be smart about what we do with our efforts. Currently some of us are, but some of us are not. That's a problem.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 11, 2012, 09:09:12 PM
Dividing amongst ourselves, and hurting other gamers/games, will not help us "against" NCSoft, or for City of Heroes.

It's easy to be against something.

It's a lot harder to be FOR something.

In the same vein as not labeling eachothers as sock puppets, sell outs, sparkling pegacorns, etc, let's also try not to reach out for something to attack. Yes, NCSoft wronged us. Yes, I'd be happy for them to crash too. But we arent watching their stock prices because we all got together to watch the company die. "This is a Save Paragon City!" board, not a "Destroy NCSoft!" board, and its important to remember that. Yes, NCSoft having financial leverage against them helps us. Yes, them being in a less than advantageous position helps us.

But I think the more we start encouraging, accepting, going down the route of collateral damage, the less we look like something worth supporting - and this isn't really just about us.

CoH being shut down like it was represents a blow against gamers and -consumers- globally. It shows possible international bias causing harm to consumers who were in good faith supporting a product, and a company, only for everything to go away because someone wanted it to - not because it was harming shareholders or a company at large.

CoH being shut down when older games are still going, some not even in maintenance mode, is a blow against old-but-proffitable. Tripple A titles are not all that the gaming industry wants, or needs right now. They look shiny and pretty, but the smaller scene, indy games, lower budget titles, MMORPGs still making money but-not-WoW-levels, these all still have value.

This is a GAMER cause. This is a GAMER issue.

If someone came in here and said they were an Aion subscriber, as much as that game annoys me for its possible connections to the closing of CoH... if they were throwing their load in with us, I would happily accept them.

Because they could get hurt like us.

Because we were one internet, one gaming community, and one people who enjoy having fun by pressing buttons and having a character do stuff on screen.

Remembering this can only make us stronger :)
Well said.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 11, 2012, 09:14:22 PM
Well said.

Thank you :)

I know I'm saying something a lot of people have already said, but sometimes saying it just so can help :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Megajoule on December 11, 2012, 09:21:41 PM
I, for one, am seeing a lot of anger here.  Anger which is certainly understandable, given the circumstances... but anger is much like fire.  If not carefully tended and watched, fire can burn out of control, indiscriminately, including those who started it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 11, 2012, 09:43:45 PM
IMHO Aion is probably next in line to feel the executioner's axe and not the GW games so it'd be in their self-interest to throw in with #SaveCoH before there needs to be a #SaveAion.

At least Aion in the Western market; I don't have the link available here at work, but while researching the history of Korean MMOs I ran across a statement that NCSoft had paid for computer upgrades at many cyber cafes in Korea so that they would have the specs to be able to run Aion, otherwise the game would have fallen flatter there than "City of Hero" did, from sheer lack of ability to play it.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 11, 2012, 10:47:29 PM
At least Aion in the Western market; I don't have the link available here at work, but while researching the history of Korean MMOs I ran across a statement that NCSoft had paid for computer upgrades at many cyber cafes in Korea so that they would have the specs to be able to run Aion, otherwise the game would have fallen flatter there than "City of Hero" did, from sheer lack of ability to play it.
Which is why the "hey lets build an MMO on FPS engine XYZ, it'll look awesome" is normally a bad idea.  Back on the old forums someone was asking for a new CoH done on the CryEngine 3 engine.  There's a good reason it's called "Cry"Engine other than the name of the company.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Aggelakis on December 11, 2012, 11:15:30 PM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=imageshack.us%2Fa%2Fimg7%2F4703%2Fmodhat2.jpg) Mod Hat!

Howdy guys. Some folks here are getting a little heated so I would like everyone to stop posting about anything other than watching stocks for a while. Don't talk about bashing NCsoft or another one of their games (past, present, or future), don't talk about supporting NCsoft or another one of their games (past, present, or future), don't talk about race or culture or anything else. This is a stockwatch thread, so let's have a stockwatch thread for a little while. Once we all calm down a bit, maybe the thread can tangent again.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 12, 2012, 12:14:39 AM
http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/chart?symbol=036570.KS)

Stabilized at 156. I still don't like that.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 12, 2012, 12:31:29 AM
as long as its not going up then im fine with that, of course drops will give them more prompts to sell
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ukaserex on December 12, 2012, 01:39:50 AM
I'm by no means an expert - but I am very interested in the fluctuation of the stock price. There are so very many variables that come into play, it's enough to drive a sane man mad! As for this crazy blaster, I can't get much worse, so I can look and ponder all I like. One factor that seems to be a telling one is the value of the US dollar. I wish I had powerpoint on my computer; I'd make an overlay of the last years comparison of the Won compared to the US Dollar and NCSoft's stock price. I think, and of course, I could very well be wrong, that NCSoft was not keen to pursue our US dollars because they're just weak. I know my dollar doesn't buy what it used to. As I mentioned before, there's a zillion variables and nobody can nail all the variables down. (at least I don't think so) But, it is food for thought.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 12, 2012, 01:46:32 AM
what you bring up is a possible point, i doubt its the only point, but it could be a possible reason why ncsoft is trying to pull out of the western market (although it would only account for the US, not the EU)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: ukaserex on December 12, 2012, 01:49:38 AM
Heh, well, given (I am Greek, so I can say this!) how the Euro is doing, I'm not sure I would want my business there either!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 12, 2012, 02:35:39 AM
*cough*
Rumor hath it that Carbine is only getting "axe delayed" notifications in 2 month increments now.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on December 12, 2012, 02:39:06 AM
It sure would be nice if some people could Save COH without continually bashing GW2.

Well, a few things are going on here that make the issue complex.

I have no ill will towards Arena.Net, Carbine, or other studios that NCsoft acquired.  As far as I'm concerned, they're a lot of like Paragon Studios.  They have developers, artists, writers, managers, marketers, etc. that all work hard, and as far as I know, they have their dedicated communities just like we have ours.

To be honest, I fear for Arena.Net.  If what I think is happening is actually happening--NCsoft looking to shed all third-party studios and do all development basically run out of Seoul--then anyone that works there (or Carbine) should either 1) be in imminent fear for their job, or 2) be prepared for a massive change in (micro)management that will not bode well for their happiness and artistic integrity.

Which brings me to my first important point: If we are successful, there's a pretty good chance that we might actually be helping Arena.Net.  How's that?  Because if we are able to get NCsoft to free up the IP to City of Heroes, it is a template for how companies like NCsoft should ideally operate: When they're done with a game and want to move on to something else, instead of just kicking communities to the side, they can open up the possibility for other companies to acquire it.  I have no idea who runs Arena.Net, but whoever it is, wouldn't it be nice if when they get to the point where we are, instead of having to go through all of this heartache and strife and layoffs and such, their management can negotiate with NCsoft and, once NCsoft sees that it won't destroy their company, acquire the rights to Guild Wars so that that community can continue on?  Wouldn't it have been nice if Richard Garriott had been able to get the rights to Tabula Rasa so that the Paragon Studios management team and investors could have had a much easier time in negotiations to keep City of Heroes from shutting down?

There is also the issue that people are angry at NCsoft, and that anger is naturally going to seep out into all aspects of the company.  The sad fact is that if I go buy Guild Wars 2, that's going to put money into NCsoft's pocket, and I don't want that to happen.  Too many people in my humble opinion are seeing this as some sort of deliberate lash-out against Arena.Net, but it's not--not any more than buying a nice steak dinner (or whatever food you happen to like) at your favorite restaurant is deliberately spiting poor people because you could have eaten rice and beans instead and given the difference in cost to a feed the homeless.

There is also the matter of trying to do a greater good.  NCsoft shut down Paragon Studios and City of Heroes with virtually no warning and for no reason that's discernible to most people.  If we pitch such a fit that it hurts NCsoft--really hurts them financially and PR-wise--then isn't it plausible that other movers and shakers in the industry, many of them larger than NCsoft, will take notice?  If Sony, Blizzard, Perfect World, CCP or whoever sees NCsoft take a major hit because of this, how eager will they be to simply shut down a game like NCsoft did?  Not very, I'm wagering.  Someone had mentioned how mean we're being to Beastyle, who still (as far as I know) works at NCsoft in Seattle.  Look, I like the guy.  But as long as we're talking about hypothetical damage to his career, why aren't we taking into account the hypothetical damage to, say, Sean McCann's career if we don't do all we can to send the industry a message?  Or to Black Pebble?  Or to Zwillinger?  Or anyone else who is at another company now?

Also, one thing that you have to consider is that a lot of people--myself included--are really sore because they are convinced that money that was earned on City of Heroes was funneled into at least the development of Blade and Soul, and quite possibly Guild Wars 2 as well.  I know that some people dispute this, but I have my reasons (more than just "I feel this way...") for believing that in spite of their reasons, it's true.  Now don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge Guild Wars 2 players their game, and really, I don't even care very much one way or the other about Blade and Soul.  But to turn around and shut down our game and our studio after we played a role in helping to build NCsoft is extremely betraying, and I certainly understand why some people might have ill will towards those game even not necessarily through any fault of their own.

My point is, you're going to have to learn to accept that most people here are going to be anti-NCsoft and, by extension, some (not all) are going to take some of that anger out on other NCsoft titles.  You also need to recognize the difference between bashing NCsoft and bashing Guild Wars 2.  The two are not the same, any more than if I said, "NCsoft was incompetent" (which they were) by extension means, "Paragon Studios was incompetent" (which is DEFINITELY not true).

You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, you're not going to get banned or anything for being the oddball out, and a small minority of people might even agree with you.  And there are plenty of topics and discussions that have little or nothing to do with NCsoft if you don't want to get into it.  But I'm going to warn you up front that if you post messages that are pro-Guild Wars or pro-NCsoft or pro-Blade and Soul, there's a really good chance that you're going to get a moderate to strong negative response.  You can go there if you want, but I suggest that you have a thick skin and stay far away from anything that could be considered trollish.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JWBullfrog on December 12, 2012, 02:39:46 AM
*cough*

I have certain inside information that Carbine is only getting "axe delayed" notifications in 2 month increments now.

In other words, the axe is being held over their heads in a threatening manner, followed by "well you get another two months" when the two month deadline runs out.

I feel very sorry for them. Carbine doesn't deserve this.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 12, 2012, 02:55:42 AM
Nor does ArenaNet and I truly, deeply and sincerely hope they can get shut of NCSoft before NCSoft threatens them with "monetize EVERYTHING" or we shut you down too."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on December 12, 2012, 04:01:55 AM
GG, I know we're all working for the same goal here - saving CoH - but as with any battle, while there are often several ways to win, there are countless ways to lose.

We cannot afford to lose the moral high ground. We can't afford to treat collateral damage frivolously and I would very much appreciate if you and everyone else tried to shoot around those who are uninvolved, but in the way, rather than through them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on December 12, 2012, 04:04:17 AM
Anyway, back on topic, looks like someone spent their "buy our stock back up" budget again.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Greg Lloyd on December 12, 2012, 04:55:45 AM
*cough*

I have certain inside information that Carbine is only getting "axe delayed" notifications in 2 month increments now.

In other words, the axe is being held over their heads in a threatening manner, followed by "well you get another two months" when the two month deadline runs out.

"Good night, Wesley, I'll most likely kill you tomorrow."
---- Dread Pirate Roberts VI
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: V-Mink on December 12, 2012, 06:39:36 AM
*cough*

I have certain inside information that Carbine is only getting "axe delayed" notifications in 2 month increments now.

In other words, the axe is being held over their heads in a threatening manner, followed by "well you get another two months" when the two month deadline runs out.
Is there the possibility that, should NCsoftcore decide to "recoup" its "losses" and drop said axe on Carbine, that they will spin it as the fault of the once-and-future COHmmunity?  Or would that be too blatantly Sirrocco-level chutzpah?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on December 12, 2012, 06:42:14 AM
If they do that, we have them.

Evidence is not their friend. It is ours.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 12, 2012, 06:47:15 AM
agreed, theres a lot more evidence supporting our cause so if they try to turn it around they would not look good on their part
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Megajoule on December 12, 2012, 07:46:23 AM
Poor Carbine.  I was really looking forward to Wildstar.
That's pretty much the cherry on top of this sundae of suck.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 12, 2012, 07:51:05 AM
Is there the possibility that, should NCsoftcore decide to "recoup" its "losses" and drop said axe on Carbine, that they will spin it as the fault of the once-and-future COHmmunity?  Or would that be too blatantly Sirrocco-level chutzpah?

EA at some point, blamed the failure of SWTOR on 4chan...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Clave Dark 5 on December 12, 2012, 09:47:31 AM
EA at some point, blamed the failure of SWTOR on 4chan...

4chan is responsible for everything wrong with the internet, everyone knows that.   /sarcasm
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 12, 2012, 10:06:16 AM
4chan is responsible for everything wrong with the internet, everyone knows that.   /sarcasm

....OMG....4chan is Lord Nemesis!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: mikoroshi on December 12, 2012, 10:07:15 AM
4chan is responsible for everything wrong with the internet, everyone knows that.   /sarcasm

Yes, I just saw a thread there about how they were going to hack Titan network and unbold the "g" in your post.

OMG they did it! 0_o
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 12, 2012, 03:10:25 PM
Is there the possibility that, should NCsoftcore decide to "recoup" its "losses" and drop said axe on Carbine, that they will spin it as the fault of the once-and-future COHmmunity?  Or would that be too blatantly Sirrocco-level chutzpah?

How on earth would that even be possible? No one playing CoX is making management-level decisions at NCSoftheaded. It would be hilarious if they tried though, because if anything said "Keystone Cops - level stupidity," that right there would be it.

The sad thing is that hash they are going to make out of thousands of people's lives, all really for nothing. I say thousands, because everyone who will be affected comes with a family affected by the job loss, too.

Everyone at Carbine now: run for the freaking hills.

ArenaNet: watch your backs.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Clave Dark 5 on December 12, 2012, 04:52:08 PM
Yes, I just saw a thread there about how they were going to hack Titan network and unbold the "g" in your post.

OMG they did it! 0_o

Will no one save us from those monsters?!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 12, 2012, 04:59:57 PM
Maybe it's the same bot that's
influencing the MMOSite votes.



(God, that looks obnoxious...)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 12, 2012, 05:06:19 PM
....OMG....4chan is Lord Nemesis!

THE PRUSSIAN PRINCE OF LULZ!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Clave Dark 5 on December 12, 2012, 06:00:30 PM
THE PRUSSIAN PRINCE OF LULZ!

That actually kind of works, in the final confrontation, he could have shouted out "I DID IT FOR TEH LULZ!"
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 13, 2012, 04:54:14 AM
Stock seems to be climbing since the announcement earlier.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 13, 2012, 05:49:31 AM
Stock seems to be climbing since the announcement earlier.

Either NCSoft is buying back its own stock at what they hope will be the bottom rate, or the market is reacting like lemmings to what they think is a positive move.  The market reacts like lemmings to what it perceives as any sort of "movement" with a company, short of declaring bankruptcy.  I have never understood this.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 13, 2012, 06:50:21 AM
...I have never understood this.
I think that is best.
It has been my findings that efforts to understand insanity only lead to further insanity.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Little Green Frog on December 13, 2012, 07:44:49 AM
Removing my post. I don't really want to step into this one.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: healix on December 13, 2012, 08:27:54 AM
when it comes to understanding those stock graphs, this is me....

(https://i.imgur.com/tLgf0.gif)

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Opilion on December 13, 2012, 10:54:57 AM
I have never understood this.

Tickle Me Elmo, Beanie Babies, and iPhones.  Same herd mentality, just more money involved.  ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JWBullfrog on December 13, 2012, 02:51:46 PM
The average stock investor is the twitchiest, most reactionary beast on the planet. They make rabbits look calm and serene in the face of danger.
The bet definition I have ever heard about stock trading comes from the film 'Trading Places'. In that film they basically equate stock trading to gambling. A quick look here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4fVgVVpiw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI4fVgVVpiw)
 
Something like this may be happening with the NCSoft stock. In fact, I would be willing to bet that it is..
 
Say, one dollar? ...  ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 13, 2012, 03:55:02 PM
Crud... they're slowly digging out of the hole.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 13, 2012, 03:57:07 PM
Sounds like we need another community call-to-action to keep up the pressure.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: HarvesterOfEyes on December 13, 2012, 06:27:55 PM
Markets Fluctuate.

Market reporters trade in the false concept that the explanation for each day's change is clear and knowable.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on December 13, 2012, 06:33:50 PM
Markets Fluctuate.

Market reporters trade in the false concept that the explanation for each day's change is clear and knowable.

Like panel 5 of this comic. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2017#comic) Something tiny and stupid affects things, and everybody tries to connect to something important instead.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DJMoose on December 13, 2012, 11:02:23 PM
....OMG....4chan is Lord Nemesis!
This makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 14, 2012, 02:05:09 AM
For what it is worth, a few words were dropped in the shell-like ear of the Korean Times journalist.  We made some observations and suggested he might look into a couple things.  One, if he merely raises questions about it, is going to make things very uncomfortable for NCSoft.  The other, while mere speculation, if by some possibility is true....would be a bombshell.

And while your minds are spinning, I will offer the following observation.

When Paragon Points or GW Gems or other in-game currency that requires hard cash are purchased in the marketplaces, the money goes straight to NCSoft via their third-party store.  That money remains with NCSoft until the points are cashed in at the game.  Only then does the game studio get credit for that influx of money and have it go on their side of the ledger.

So if a large number of F2P accounts would purchase points or gems, NOT cash them in, and cancel the accounts, NCSoft would get a large influx of money...that would never be credited as income to the game studio.

And one might speculate why someone would do something like that.  Why on earth would someone want to transfer money to another entity and get nothing from it?  (Hint:  Two words.  First word: rhymes with honey.  Second word: rhymes with maundering)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 14, 2012, 02:17:22 AM
For what it is worth, a few words were dropped in the shell-like ear of the Korean Times journalist.  We made some observations and suggested he might look into a couple things.  One, if he merely raises questions about it, is going to make things very uncomfortable for NCSoft.  The other, while mere speculation, if by some possibility is true....would be a bombshell.

And while your minds are spinning, I will offer the following observation.

When Paragon Points or GW Gems or other in-game currency that requires hard cash are purchased in the marketplaces, the money goes straight to NCSoft via their third-party store.  That money remains with NCSoft until the points are cashed in at the game.  Only then does the game studio get credit for that influx of money and have it go on their side of the ledger.

So if a large number of F2P accounts would purchase points or gems, NOT cash them in, and cancel the accounts, NCSoft would get a large influx of money...that would never be credited as income to the game studio.

And one might speculate why someone would do something like that.  Why on earth would someone want to transfer money to another entity and get nothing from it?  (Hint:  Two words.  First word: rhymes with honey.  Second word: rhymes with maundering)

/me growls, eyes going red.

They had best pray to whatever gods they worship that this speculation leads nowhere, or so help me...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 14, 2012, 02:18:25 AM
Dia-frickin-bolical!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 14, 2012, 02:25:47 AM
*shrug*

This is why churches have been a consistent spot for the same sort of operation.  Lots of money comes in on Sunday, with no questions asked, no trace on it, and nothing is received in return.  Just buy a bunch of prepaid debit cards with cash, create an F2P account, and run your script.  As I said, it is NOTHING but speculation, but the mechanism is right there in plain sight.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Colette on December 14, 2012, 04:00:47 AM
"The other, while mere speculation, if by some possibility is true....would be a bombshell. Hint:  Two words.  First word: rhymes with honey.  Second word: rhymes with maundering."

:: Gapes! ::

...wow. Just wow. Wouldn't that be sumthin'!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 14, 2012, 04:03:08 AM
This makes me feel really glad that the extra points left over in my account were freebies :(
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Arkasas on December 14, 2012, 04:04:46 AM
I believe the moral of this story is to never, ever anger VV.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: mikoroshi on December 14, 2012, 04:08:13 AM
I believe the moral of this story is to never, ever anger VV.

Or come to her when you need an elaborate plan to launder money you've... obtained.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 14, 2012, 04:35:19 AM
Hmmm...
But... but... isn't bunny sauntering illegal in most countries??
*scratches head*
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: MoltenSlowa on December 14, 2012, 04:52:48 AM
Hmmm...
But... but... isn't bunny sauntering illegal in most countries??
*scratches head*

No no no, you're thinking of funny bludgeoning.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 14, 2012, 05:07:32 AM
OK, this just made an association that, for me, ruined the humor of the thread. Fortunately, if you haven't seen the Ken Burns special on the Dust Bowl, you're safe. Also, if you didn't read EK's post as "bunny sundering."  :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 14, 2012, 05:10:28 AM
I don't know what's worse. That VV put this idea forward...or that the more I look through things, the more this speculative theory suddenly makes all their actions make perfect sense.

We need to find someone to seriously dig into this, paranoid delusions of a disheartened and broken community or not.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 14, 2012, 05:14:14 AM
OK, this just made an association that, for me, ruined the humor of the thread. Fortunately, if you haven't seen the Ken Burns special on the Dust Bowl, you're safe. Also, if you didn't read EK's post as "bunny sundering."  :D

I must now take the feat Improved Bunny Sundering.

It lets you sunder bunnies without an attack of opportunity being provoked.

>.>
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DJMoose on December 14, 2012, 05:20:02 AM
I must now take the feat Improved Bunny Sundering.
It lets you sunder bunnies without an attack of opportunity being provoked.
>.>
Because they are no ordinary rabbits...
I don't know what's worse. That VV put this idea forward...or that the more I look through things, the more this speculative theory suddenly makes all their actions make perfect sense.
Wow...We totally need to look into this.  It makes too much sense.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 14, 2012, 10:11:05 AM
Sorry VV, you and the legal system have very different definitions of Bunny Saundering.  NCSoft handling of the proxy game currency is totally legal and makes sense back when they introduced NCCoin, which was suppose to be a multigame currency.  Same could apply to gaming time sold in Korea and other Asian countries for their "native" MMOs or the NCSoft generic time cards sold here.  Of course it adds another layer of accounting, tracking how much proxy currency that was spent that wasn't rewarded either ingame or part of a subscription, and then credit it as income from the game.

Plus they aren't getting all the money if the proxy currency is bought in a store front.  Retailers get a cut and here in the US a fair chunk of those cards are handled by one company and they get their cut before the publisher sees any of it.  This is why BestBuy still sells CoH Game Cards.  Until the card company tells them it's OK to pull them and will provide the retailer with credit (or cards for other games still in business) they are contractually obligated to display them.

Actually if you want to extend your explanation, all box sales first go in NCSoft's coffers and then credited to each game.

Listen I get it.  What NCSoft did to Paragon and us out of the blue was wrong at the very least a PR perspective.  However you can't imply malfeasance in any legal business practice that you find objectionable.  Attempting to drive down the stock price of NCSoft doesn't hurt them.  It hurts the people that own the stock but NCSoft got their money way back when the stock first went public.  A stock price is a reflection what investors think of a company, but as long as the company is profitable the stock price is immaterial to it's operations.  At best it's a source of pride.  NCSoft doesn't hire talent with attractive stock options.  They aren't Google.

The only time when the stock went down because someone here did something was VV's comments for The Korea Times piece, and that's loss has been erased with this restructuring of the western subsidiaries.  The Unity rally was great for us and generated a lot of western press but zero in Korea where most of their investors are.  Any drop in the stock between them and the 3Q numbers release is entirely due to NCSoft repeatedly missing their sales targets combined with a downturn in the industry as well as the worldwide economy.  I also imagine that those with their ears to the ground got a strong hint about the direction the 3Q numbers were heading, likely from their PC Bang game rankings of all their games and got out before the pancake hit the fan.  Those who didn't, had only a partial picture (B&S hits #1 in PC Bangs but ignored the Lineage and Aion rankings) and/or believed NCSoft was about ready to skyrocket again saw these drops as buying opportunities which is why the stock rebounded several times on the way down.

I'm not raining on your parade but simply trying to put some perspective into this.  All that driving the stock price down is only going to make them into a easier target for someone to take them over and that's it.  But as long as their sales are growing and profits are comparable to other online gaming companies, then the stock will never be driven below book value or below the range what the industry's P/E ratio says it should be.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 14, 2012, 11:26:53 AM
I never said it wasn't legal.  It's perfectly legal.  It's also wide open to Honey Maundering.  That's why Honey Maundering is so widespread, it uses legal ways to clean illicit cash.

And if you were trying to put another level of obfuscation between you and the company (NCSoft Interactive) that you had been using to Maunder Honey, wouldn't you close that company and resell its assets to another shell company?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: healix on December 14, 2012, 12:46:34 PM
I must now take the feat Improved Bunny Sundering.

It lets you sunder bunnies without an attack of opportunity being provoked.

Here is the walkthrough:



>.>


(https://i.imgur.com/arTcB.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Copper Cockroach on December 14, 2012, 01:30:46 PM
They must have rumor-mongering in Korea. Every other society on Earth does. Haven't they heard that in the total absence of official explanation, rumors, wild speculation, and tinfoil-hat theories will fill the void?

If these lines of thinking make NCsoft uncomfortable, if they take offense at the implications, there's a simple solution:

Grow a set. Step up.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 14, 2012, 02:17:41 PM
Even leaving our all-caps Hispanic friend who's name translates to "rich" out of this, if there were significant numbers of people who bought Paragon Points and never spent them, that's a sign that Paragon Studios may have been even more profitable than otherwise indicated.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Codewalker on December 14, 2012, 02:20:02 PM
I know I had several thousand points at the end on each of my accounts, that I had bought to get that last rewards tier and was hoarding to use for new powersets / costume sets as they came out.

After the shutdown announcement I didn't see much of a point in spending them, but now I'm kind of wishing that I had.

That's also the kind of creative accounting I was thinking of when I suggested that the quarterly revenue numbers may not tell the whole story in regards to microtransactions. The real question is what trick that NCSoft uses to recognize that as "revenue" on the corporate level since no actual service was delivered.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: WildFire15 on December 14, 2012, 02:22:49 PM
I know I had several thousand at the end on each of my accounts, that I had been gotten to get that last rewards tier and was hoarding to use for new powersets / costume sets as they came out.

After the shutdown announcement I didn't see much of a point in spending them, but now I'm kind of wishing that I had.

I'd done pretty much the same thing, but I did use a load after the shut down announcement for stuff I wasn't originally planning on getting. Still had about a thousand left over.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 14, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
Well, post-shutdown, who knows if the updating mechanism still credited the spent points to Paragon, since it was no longer extant?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 14, 2012, 02:30:35 PM
Well, post-shutdown, who knows if the updating mechanism still credited the spent points to Paragon, since it was no longer extant?

Unspent points go into the Never-Never.  They are never credited to anything.  Only the real money wings its way to NCSoft.

One of the reasons my spidey-sense started slowly tingling on this is that I definitely remember Dark Watcher having to deal with shoving the store in sideways, and him wondering why it just couldn't be dealt with account-side with direct payments to NCSoft as the old options were--why they suddenly, desperately needed this third party.

Just sayin'. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: johnrobey on December 14, 2012, 03:08:30 PM
Sorry VV, you and the legal system have very different definitions of Bunny Saundering.  NCSoft handling of the proxy game currency is totally legal and makes sense back when they introduced NCCoin, which was suppose to be a multigame currency.  Same could apply to gaming time sold in Korea and other Asian countries for their "native" MMOs or the NCSoft generic time cards sold here.  Of course it adds another layer of accounting, tracking how much proxy currency that was spent that wasn't rewarded either ingame or part of a subscription, and then credit it as income from the game.

Plus they aren't getting all the money if the proxy currency is bought in a store front.  Retailers get a cut and here in the US a fair chunk of those cards are handled by one company and they get their cut before the publisher sees any of it.  This is why BestBuy still sells CoH Game Cards.  Until the card company tells them it's OK to pull them and will provide the retailer with credit (or cards for other games still in business) they are contractually obligated to display them.

Actually if you want to extend your explanation, all box sales first go in NCSoft's coffers and then credited to each game.

Listen I get it.  What NCSoft did to Paragon and us out of the blue was wrong at the very least a PR perspective.  However you can't imply malfeasance in any legal business practice that you find objectionable.  Attempting to drive down the stock price of NCSoft doesn't hurt them.  It hurts the people that own the stock but NCSoft got their money way back when the stock first went public.  A stock price is a reflection what investors think of a company, but as long as the company is profitable the stock price is immaterial to it's operations.  At best it's a source of pride.  NCSoft doesn't hire talent with attractive stock options.  They aren't Google.

The only time when the stock went down because someone here did something was VV's comments for The Korea Times piece, and that's loss has been erased with this restructuring of the western subsidiaries.  The Unity rally was great for us and generated a lot of western press but zero in Korea where most of their investors are.  Any drop in the stock between them and the 3Q numbers release is entirely due to NCSoft repeatedly missing their sales targets combined with a downturn in the industry as well as the worldwide economy.  I also imagine that those with their ears to the ground got a strong hint about the direction the 3Q numbers were heading, likely from their PC Bang game rankings of all their games and got out before the pancake hit the fan.  Those who didn't, had only a partial picture (B&S hits #1 in PC Bangs but ignored the Lineage and Aion rankings) and/or believed NCSoft was about ready to skyrocket again saw these drops as buying opportunities which is why the stock rebounded several times on the way down.

I'm not raining on your parade but simply trying to put some perspective into this.  All that driving the stock price down is only going to make them into a easier target for someone to take them over and that's it.  But as long as their sales are growing and profits are comparable to other online gaming companies, then the stock will never be driven below book value or below the range what the industry's P/E ratio says it should be.

Simply noting that I appreciate your perspective and your taking time to post this.  Thank you, Father Xmas.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: General Idiot on December 14, 2012, 04:08:17 PM
I know I had several thousand points at the end on each of my accounts, that I had bought to get that last rewards tier and was hoarding to use for new powersets / costume sets as they came out.

I had four or five thousand on my account, as well. I was saving them for the all the costume packs and powersets that were in the I24 beta. And for the second round of super packs.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DJMoose on December 14, 2012, 04:37:43 PM
I had four or five thousand on my account, as well. I was saving them for the all the costume packs and powersets that were in the I24 beta. And for the second round of super packs.
THIS.  I stocked up on Paragon Points to purchase all the new stuff coming out with I24 and then Black Friday happened. :'(
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 14, 2012, 04:58:50 PM
the last time i bought points was for nature affinity, granted i still had about 2500 pts leftover by the time the shutdown happened because i was still accruing VIP stipend until the end (i checked my account history and it said i got a stipend for sept, oct, and nov)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: SkyStreak on December 14, 2012, 05:09:54 PM
I had over 10,000 points between my two accounts.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 14, 2012, 05:31:23 PM
I was in a similar boat, I had a little over 9600 points still there. I was expecting the second super packs to go live sooner rather than later and bought up the $100 deal sometime in June or July to be ready for it. If it's true that only spent points got credited to Paragon, then I'm glad I spent them before the end.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on December 14, 2012, 05:45:56 PM
I had a little over 9600 points still there.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=images3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20091225205919%2Fmeme%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F2%2F20%2FOver9000S.jpg%2F180px-Over9000S.jpg)
:)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 14, 2012, 05:47:38 PM
Beat me to it! :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 14, 2012, 06:34:48 PM
At least it wasn't 9000 of these:

(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/Funny%20Pics/Over9000bucks.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 14, 2012, 06:51:47 PM
I never said it wasn't legal.  It's perfectly legal.  It's also wide open to Honey Maundering.  That's why Honey Maundering is so widespread, it uses legal ways to clean illicit cash.

And if you were trying to put another level of obfuscation between you and the company (NCSoft Interactive) that you had been using to Maunder Honey, wouldn't you close that company and resell its assets to another shell company?
I'm sorry, I know you are a wordsmith by profession but illicit includes illegal in it's default definition.  It's not a word one chooses by accident when discussing the activities of a company when you didn't mean to imply malfeasance.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Megajoule on December 14, 2012, 07:08:02 PM
I understand that a lot of people are very angry with NCsoft for killing our game, for no reason that is apparent or adequate to us, and are thus willing to ascribe all sorts of evil motives and/or conspiracy theories to the decision... but I would like to again call for some restraint and/or application of Hanlon's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor).

We want someone to blame, a villain to fight.  But sometimes it really is as simple, stupid and/or petty as a business decision, which may seem unwise, short-sighted, and/or uncaring to us who invested so much of ourselves emotionally.

NCsoft is not Crey.  It's not a Nemesis front company.  It's a business with an eye on the bottom line, troubled stocks, and internal politics, separated from most of us by an ocean and a very different culture (business and otherwise).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 14, 2012, 07:17:15 PM
I'm sorry, I know you are a wordsmith by profession but illicit includes illegal in it's default definition.  It's not a word one chooses by accident when discussing the activities of a company when you didn't mean to imply malfeasance.

Where, in this statement, did I use the word "illicit?"  It does not exist in this statement.

Quote
When Paragon Points or GW Gems or other in-game currency that requires hard cash are purchased in the marketplaces, the money goes straight to NCSoft via their third-party store.  That money remains with NCSoft until the points are cashed in at the game.  Only then does the game studio get credit for that influx of money and have it go on their side of the ledger.

So if a large number of F2P accounts would purchase points or gems, NOT cash them in, and cancel the accounts, NCSoft would get a large influx of money...that would never be credited as income to the game studio.

And one might speculate why someone would do something like that.  Why on earth would someone want to transfer money to another entity and get nothing from it?  (Hint:  Two words.  First word: rhymes with honey.  Second word: rhymes with maundering)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 14, 2012, 08:24:20 PM
At least it wasn't 9000 of these:

(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/Funny%20Pics/Over9000bucks.jpg)

Each of those will be worth five Korean Wons.

That is the exchange rate the bank of Korea will set... AFTER I'VE KIDNAPPED THEIR QUEEN.

They have one of those right?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 14, 2012, 08:34:05 PM
They have one of those right?

I think they have OVER NINE THOU - oh wait, we already used that one.

*shrugs* Dunno.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 14, 2012, 08:47:32 PM
Hmm, there isn't a delete post here.  Sorry edited the wrong post reply.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 14, 2012, 08:49:32 PM
Where, in this statement, did I use the word "illicit?"  It does not exist in this statement.
Obviously not there.  However between this

And one might speculate why someone would do something like that.  Why on earth would someone want to transfer money to another entity and get nothing from it?  (Hint:  Two words.  First word: rhymes with honey.  Second word: rhymes with maundering)

and this

I never said it wasn't legal.  It's perfectly legal.  It's also wide open to Honey Maundering.  That's why Honey Maundering is so widespread, it uses legal ways to clean illicit cash.

And if you were trying to put another level of obfuscation between you and the company (NCSoft Interactive) that you had been using to Maunder Honey, wouldn't you close that company and resell its assets to another shell company?
You are certainly suggesting something not on the up and up.

Also again it shows that you don't understand business terminology.  A shell company is nothing like a holding company.  Shell companies do not have assets, they are simply entities that money passes through.  This new NCSoft subsidiary now owns NC Interactive and have both Carbine and ArenaNet at least reporting to them.

All businesses are not run by Mr Burns.  Every business decision you (the general you not you VV in particular) disagree with is a result of a personal vendetta, a punishment to noisy customers or setting an example to keep the rest of their employees in line.  The echo chamber here makes every off the wall suggestion into yet another conspiracy theory to screw us, their current and former employees or a way to line their pockets with the profits of their nefarious deeds.  I know that as comic fans and players of the best hero MMO that has ever come along means that we are use to the idea of shadowy groups or corrupt businessmen or influential people abusing their power but that rarely happens in real life (rarely as in compared to the whole, we do hear about such examples but my point is that we don't hear the 99.999% where it doesn't happen).  Most of the time it's simple stupidity, group think or unfortunate series of events.

Again, NC Interactive didn't get dissolved and reformed as this new entity.  Only it's ownership changed hands and that's only on paper.  Now if this new holding company is really meant to be a firewall between the parent companies capricious mandates or provide some local empowerment for handling the western markets, according to some of the info at glassdoor are problems with the previous running of things, then this is good news for those still remaining at NCSoft's western properties.  I know good news for any part of NCSoft is anathema for some here, the hate is strong with us but don't let the hate and rage blind you all to the greater goal.  You can't expect them to sit down with a group that thinks of them as every worse stereotype of a greedy businessman in the book.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 14, 2012, 09:02:22 PM
Each of those will be worth five Korean Wons.

That is the exchange rate the bank of Korea will set... AFTER I'VE KIDNAPPED THEIR QUEEN.

They have one of those right?
And you are now my favorite person of the day. Anyone who paraphrases Raul Julia's hilariously over the top M. Bison is tops in my book.

Also, this!

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.corvusonline.net%2Fforum_images%2FDidntSeeThatDidYouBISON.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on December 14, 2012, 09:05:17 PM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.corvusonline.net%2Fforum_images%2FDidntSeeThatDidYouBISON.jpg)

Who was he talking about there, Sagat or NCsoft? I can't remember.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 14, 2012, 09:07:48 PM
Probably both. I think Sagat actually runs NCSoft from behind the scenes.

*removes tongue from cheek*

That said, it could indeed make a good NCSoft mockery image :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 14, 2012, 09:18:34 PM
And you are now my favorite person of the day. Anyone who paraphrases Raul Julia's hilariously over the top M. Bison is tops in my book.

Aw, thanks! :)

Raul Julia's M. Bison may be one of the best things to happen to film ever. If I could somehow edit a movie together to combine Reb Brown clips (Space Mutiny, Captain America, etc) with Street Fighter to make them nemesi, I think it would make the best thing ever.

But as for Sagat running NCSoft?

(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6654183/Share/BisonOfCourse.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 14, 2012, 09:22:54 PM
Raul Julia's M. Bison may be one of the best things to happen to film ever.

Agreed! He's the reason why "Street Fighter" is one of my not-so-guilty pleasures. Its one of those classic films that's so bad, it wraps right back around to "good" again. Raul was awesome.

If I could somehow edit a movie together to combine Reb Brown clips (Space Mutiny, Captain America, etc) with Street Fighter to make them nemesi, I think it would make the best thing ever.

Dear, sweet ju-ju bees, that would be so hilariously awesome, it might crack the internets in twain! :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 14, 2012, 09:44:02 PM
Raul Julia's hilariously over the top M. Bison

Gahhh! I can't believe I missed that one :o

-5 Geek Cred for me :-[
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 14, 2012, 10:17:16 PM
Raul Julia's M. Bison is the work of a dying man who just doesn't give a damn. He's hamming it up, chewing scenery whenever possible, and generally just trying to have fun. And due to Julia's raw talent, the resulting work is nothing less than glorious. It really is a genuinely good performance, just not for the reasons most people consider when talking about a good performance in a film.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 14, 2012, 10:25:36 PM
Raul took that part for his kids, and it looks like the man had a blast. As such, I love that performance.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 14, 2012, 10:28:43 PM
I remember the SF movie coming out the one time I made it to SDCC.  I think I had a choice of waiting in line for the SF movie panel or the Babylon 5 panel (or maybe the Rumiko Takahashi panel, it was nearly 20 years ago).  I do remember them trying to drum up more interest for the SF movie panel, trying to pull people from the other lines. 

I think I picked up some SF movie swag there.  I also played blackjack at the same table as Larry Niven (it was a charity casino event out on the patio).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 14, 2012, 10:44:27 PM
Best damn quote of the movie - and possibly one of the top 5 villain quotes of all time:

Chun Li: You and your bullies were driven back by farmers with pitchforks! My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away! A hero... at a thousand paces.
Bison: I'm sorry. I don't remember any of it.
Chun Li: You don't remember?
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 14, 2012, 10:46:39 PM
No argument there Atlantea. Bison had a lot of great lines, but that one? Aces  8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Palladiamors on December 14, 2012, 10:57:51 PM
Best damn quote of the movie - and possibly one of the top 5 villain quotes of all time:

Chun Li: You and your bullies were driven back by farmers with pitchforks! My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away! A hero... at a thousand paces.
Bison: I'm sorry. I don't remember any of it.
Chun Li: You don't remember?
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

That is absolutely in the top list for villain lines,  especially that delivery.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kheprera on December 14, 2012, 11:05:29 PM
That line is what I think of when running villains. :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mister Bison on December 15, 2012, 12:10:41 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_ly0ff9P5y11qaa8d1o1_500.png)
I hoped to meet NCSoft face-to-face on the battlefield, where we could engage each other in unarmed combat. Then I would snap their monopoly. But why? Why do they still call me an emo? And mad? All I want to do is to create the perfect casual MMORPG. Not for power, not for evil, but for good. The Phoenix Project shall be the first of many who shall march out of my studio and crush every adversary, every creed, every nation! Until the world is in the loving grip of the Pax Bisonica. And peace will reign and all humanity shall bow to me in humble gratitude.

Best minion boss-monologue follow-up: Zangief "That vas beautiful boss!" :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 15, 2012, 12:32:23 AM
Mister Bison,

I have already named my favorite person of the day, so you just earned a spot in the running for tomorrow :D

I should really create an award image for that, shouldn't I?

Anywhoozle, anyone thinking M. Bison vs NCSoft deserves a thread of its own?  8)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 15, 2012, 01:44:29 AM
you poeple make me sad, whenever i see m. bison (written or pic) the first thing that comes to my mind is reichsman and all the time i enjoyed beating on him in barracuda sf
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 15, 2012, 01:47:27 AM
Pft! Reichman WISHES he were as awesome as M. Bison :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 15, 2012, 01:48:20 AM
ive honestly seen more of reichsman than m. bison, was never big into the street fighter stuff lol
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 15, 2012, 01:52:07 AM
Well, when I say that, I'm referencing the Raul Julia incarnation only *lol* ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 15, 2012, 01:54:28 AM
M. Bison vs NCSoft

(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/Funny%20Pics/AvDV.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 15, 2012, 02:02:35 AM
I have no idea what any of you are talking about.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 15, 2012, 02:04:11 AM
Sorry VV. We're kooky that way :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Tubbius on December 15, 2012, 02:06:03 AM
So. . . we have always complained that City never got any advertising.  What is it I see on Fandango's site when I go to order tickets for The Hobbit?

An ad for Guild Wars 2.  :|
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on December 15, 2012, 02:06:29 AM
you poeple make me sad, whenever i see m. bison (written or pic) the first thing that comes to my mind is reichsman and all the time i enjoyed beating on him in barracuda sf
I noticed that. Perhaps Reichsman's getup was a shout-out to Bison?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 15, 2012, 02:08:21 AM
No, I'm just old.

I remember when Paul McCartney didn't look like Angela Lansbury.

I remember when Keith Richards...no, wait, he's always looked like that.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 15, 2012, 02:19:28 AM
I remember when Keith Richards...no, wait, he's always looked like that.

HAH! *snerks* Nicely done :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: healix on December 15, 2012, 02:31:11 AM
No, I'm just old.

I remember when Paul McCartney didn't look like Angela Lansbury.

I remember when Keith Richards...no, wait, he's always looked like that.

(https://i.imgur.com/yvLXu.gif)




Actually, before all the booze/drugs mage his face look like a bas-relief map of Outer Mongolia, he wasn't bad looking...


(https://i.imgur.com/Yi37A.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 15, 2012, 02:44:26 AM
Actually, before all the booze/drugs mage his face look like a bas-relief map of Outer Mongolia, he wasn't bad looking...
(https://i.imgur.com/Yi37A.jpg)

Yep.  That was a fantastic month for him.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 15, 2012, 04:09:04 AM
LMAO
 ;D
Thank you, again, COH peeps!  :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 15, 2012, 04:44:06 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/55GZoHD.png)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: healix on December 15, 2012, 05:10:21 AM
Well, the word mummy comes to mind.....................

And then there is Carmen Dell'orefice. 80 years old, fashion model. Go figure

(https://i.imgur.com/uK96s.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Morvani on December 15, 2012, 05:25:23 AM
I remember when Paul McCartney didn't look like Angela Lansbury.

Somebody's been watching Craig Ferguson? >.>
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Golden Girl on December 15, 2012, 06:10:40 AM
It's not a Nemesis front company.

Sure it isn't.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Xieveral on December 15, 2012, 08:13:09 AM
So. . . we have always complained that City never got any advertising.  What is it I see on Fandango's site when I go to order tickets for The Hobbit?

An ad for Guild Wars 2.  :|

And another in the previews. Way to tarnish an otherwise decent and much-needed night out for me, NCsoft  >:(
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mister Bison on December 15, 2012, 09:00:50 AM
I have no idea what any of you are talking about.
No problem, you just want to see one of the biggest chunky movies of all time (that's "me" on the floating appartus)
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lw490oiala1qigigxo1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Frostyfrozen on December 15, 2012, 09:11:36 AM
I can say at less the Dead or Alive movie D.O.A was better then Van Dam's Street Fighter.
But really how hard is it to make a video game in to a movie Hollywood?!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mister Bison on December 15, 2012, 09:24:06 AM
I can say at less the Dead or Alive movie D.O.A was better then Van Dam's Street Fighter.
But really how hard is it to make a video game in to a movie Hollywood?!
Yes, D.O.A was better. That's what makes Van Damme's film So Bad It's Good :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 15, 2012, 12:17:55 PM
I can say at less the Dead or Alive movie D.O.A was better then Van Dam's Street Fighter.
But really how hard is it to make a video game in to a movie Hollywood?!
With or without executive meddling turning the plot and characters inside out?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 15, 2012, 03:51:10 PM
And another in the previews. Way to tarnish an otherwise decent and much-needed night out for me, NCsoft  >:(

Well then you'll be happy to hear about this posting at the Save City of Heroes FB page:

Quote
Sitting in movie theater and saw a guild wars 2 commercial.

Someone said out loud "Don't play it! They closed City of Heroes and treated the fans horribly!"

Applause erupted.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Quinch on December 15, 2012, 03:53:12 PM
Well then you'll be happy to hear about this posting at the Save City of Heroes FB page:

Seriously?

Seriously?

Please tell me seriously. It's almost too awesome too believe.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 15, 2012, 04:24:12 PM
Seriously?

Seriously?

Please tell me seriously. It's almost too awesome too believe.

Well I wasn't the one there. But I assume the guy was telling the truth. Bunch of geeks in the audience apparently knew what was going on with the gaming world etc.

I wouldn't assume we've gone mainstream to non-geeks. But if we're that well-known in geek/gaming circles and if NCSoft has become that universally reviled.

Well then...

BTW - the guy clarified that Arenanet wasn't even mentioned or referenced in the advertisement, which to me seemed rather curious. I don't know if that's normal. But at minimum, it means that people were reacting to the NCSoft logo and not to Arenanet. That's good. Try not to hate on Anet. Just focus on NCSoft.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on December 15, 2012, 04:36:28 PM
Seriously?

Seriously?

Please tell me seriously. It's almost too awesome too believe.

I know!

Made my day!

BTW - the guy clarified that Arenanet wasn't even mentioned or referenced in the advertisement, which to me seemed rather curious. I don't know if that's normal. But at minimum, it means that people were reacting to the NCSoft logo and not to Arenanet. That's good. Try not to hate on Anet. Just focus on NCSoft.

*starwars* Stay on target... stay on target. */starwars*
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Phaetan on December 15, 2012, 06:24:00 PM
Best damn quote of the movie - and possibly one of the top 5 villain quotes of all time:

Chun Li: You and your bullies were driven back by farmers with pitchforks! My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away! A hero... at a thousand paces.
Bison: I'm sorry. I don't remember any of it.
Chun Li: You don't remember?
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.
Good times.  When Mako invaded Pinnacle, it was on a Tuesday, so yeah, we yelled a paraphrase of that at him.
Zwill seemed amused by that and our swimwear...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 15, 2012, 06:38:21 PM
Well then you'll be happy to hear about this posting at the Save City of Heroes FB page:

Oooooh, superb burn! I hope its true. Nice :D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 15, 2012, 09:48:42 PM
Bison: For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.

Rewrite it a little and it becomes more trenchantly appropriate:

Taek Jin Kim: For you, the day NCSoft shuttered your game was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Friday.

I'm also reminded of Thulsa Doom's line from Conan the Barbarian:

Quote
For who now is your father if it is not me? I am the well spring, from which you flow. When I am gone, you will have never been. What would your world be, without me?

NCSoft, by its actions, has made all of us its enemies. And while we may be willing to cease actively working to ensure that it regrets its actions, there is no way to avoid the fact that this is something that NCSoft have brought upon itself; we would not be dragging its face in the muck had it not chosen to stand aloof and treat the CoH playerbase like a fungible commodity.

Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 16, 2012, 03:24:15 AM
fungible commodity.

I would not like to be made into fungi.

Otherwise, agreed?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Perfidus on December 16, 2012, 03:38:12 AM
I tweeted the Kim line, smralloy. Don't worry, if anyone asks, I won't take credit. Good stuff. :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 16, 2012, 11:12:29 PM
NCsoft is not Crey.  It's not a Nemesis front company.  It's a business with an eye on the bottom line, troubled stocks, and internal politics, separated from most of us by an ocean and a very different culture (business and otherwise).

They should have thought of that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before making tens of thousands of new enemies, all on a whim.

I feel zero sympathy.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 16, 2012, 11:53:41 PM
I would not like to be made into fungi.

Different origin -- 'fungible' comes from the same root as 'function'. What it means is something that is indistinguishably interchangeable. Money is fungible -- if I lend you a $10 bill, it doesn't matter whether you replay me with the same $10 bill, a different $10 bill, two $5 bills, a $5 bill and five $1 bills, or ten $1 bills -- it's all the same value. NCSoft treating us like a fungible commodity means that they see us as, in effect, faceless peons, a subset of an effectively endless supply. Why should they care about individual players? They lose one -- or ten, or ten thousand -- and there are plenty more where those came from who will step up give them money.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 17, 2012, 12:26:53 AM
Different origin -- 'fungible' comes from the same root as 'function'. What it means . . .

Its called a puuuuun  :'(

There it goes, all my funniness is used up. Time to go on youtube and start making comedy videos, or start pitching my jokes to square enix for their localizations.  :gonk:
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Triplash on December 17, 2012, 02:15:18 AM
Its called a puuuuun  :'(

There it goes, all my funniness is used up. Time to go on youtube and start making comedy videos, or start pitching my jokes to square enix for their localizations.  :gonk:

Hey, I thought it was funny. I was gonna be all like "I don't know, I'm told I can be a pretty fungi" :D

...but then I got distracted and forgot :-\
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 17, 2012, 02:15:56 AM
Now I want pizza with Mushrooms on it. Thanks a lot! ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DJMoose on December 17, 2012, 03:04:02 AM
They should have thought of that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before making tens of thousands of new enemies, all on a whim.

I feel zero sympathy.
THIS
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Xieveral on December 17, 2012, 07:28:22 AM
So... it looks like last week's boost was just a rock they hit on the way down.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 17, 2012, 03:37:31 PM
Their stock tanking again, is it?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 17, 2012, 03:48:42 PM
yup, its -4% right now, -7000 won putting their shares back to about 158,000 won
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: HarvesterOfEyes on December 17, 2012, 06:24:06 PM
If the company's finances are structurally unsound the price will "tank" that is drop and stay relatively low for the long term. [ie Facebook]

Everything else is short-term fluctuation.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: srmalloy on December 17, 2012, 06:28:32 PM
Its called a puuuuun  :'(

There it goes, all my funniness is used up. Time to go on youtube and start making comedy videos, or start pitching my jokes to square enix for their localizations.  :gonk:

Wall, shoot... If'n Ah'd thought you was funnin' me, Ah'd of dug out mah stiletto-heel hobnail boots to dance all over yer humor, steada' jest kickin' it into a corner...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Illusionss on December 17, 2012, 08:13:44 PM
So... it looks like last week's boost was just a rock they hit on the way down.

SWEET!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 17, 2012, 08:36:52 PM
If the company's finances are structurally unsound the price will "tank" that is drop and stay relatively low for the long term. [ie Facebook]

Everything else is short-term fluctuation.
While I agree that their stock is overvalued (I think 90,000-100,000 is a good price) they are far from having their finances structurally unsound.  However as long as most of the firms following NCSoft keep saying it's a buy opportunity and that the price will go to 300,000 within the year the 150,000-160,000 price seems to be it's new support level.

They just had a record profit for a quarter.  They have about $100 million in cash in the bank and another $300 million in short term investments.  Perhaps you could indicate what about their finances you find structurally unsound or did you think that just sounded good?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Atlantea on December 17, 2012, 09:14:38 PM
I always said we weren't going to hurt them immediately. And what with their shady juggling of finances and stocks and "creative accounting Enron style" they'll look good for even longer.

I thought the same thing about Bioware at the beginning of the year when the Mass Effect 3 ending fiasco happened. SO MANY people had pre-ordered that there was no way they were going to take ANY financial damage in the short run. By any "pure numbers" standings, Mass Effect 3 was a runaway smash hit.

But between the Ending controversy and the flop of SW:TOR (partially fueled, I believe, by many gamers abandoning both titles in disgust) I figured the place to look and see whether Bioware (and by extension, EA) would be hurt would be to see how good the pre-orders would be for their NEXT title. Let's see what happens when Dragon Age 3 comes out.

Similarly, NCSoft MADE their main profits on GW2 before the announcement of the closing of COH because of pre-orders and almost a weeks worth of sales beforehand.

We can't affect their actual profits right now. By any pure numbers standings, despite their stock tanking, they are in a good position.

By any pure numbers standards.

But what about reputation? What about intangibles? And how will that affect their NEXT game release? Will we have an affect on Boobs and Shame?

And what about NCSoft and Arenanet's bone-headed move as of the Lost Shores patch of completely doing a 180 and going back on their word that there would never be a gear grind in GW2? (Mind you - you can still play the game in totally casual mode while leveling up. But the end game now has gear grind.) I've been looking around on the review sites and holy CRAP there are a lot of pissed off Guild Wars fans! Generally the line being used most often is that GW2 was supposed to be different from other MMOs in it's genre, but now it's no different at all.

That's going to affect the future as well, I think.

And the steady posting of FACTS about NCSoft everywhere we can reach I believe will have an effect.

Just don't get discouraged because NCSoft is rolling in the dough NOW. It's all short term gain and they are STILL doing stupid things to jeopardize their bottom line.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 17, 2012, 10:14:27 PM
And what with their shady juggling of finances and stocks and "creative accounting Enron style" they'll look good for even longer.
Any proof of that statement, at all.  I doubt it.

And it doesn't matter if their reputation in the west has suffered because the bulk of their sales and their growth in in Asia, China specifically.  GW2 still has quite the positive spin here in the west and I suspect their sales will still be going strong when NCSoft reports their 4Q numbers in February.

Do I think Blade & Soul will falter here and in Europe.  Yes, but not because of any fallout caused by CoH's closure but from it being yet another PvP/Korean grind fest style of an MMO that simply don't do well over here.  Period.  There may be an initial surge among teenage boys due to the character creator.  They may not actually play their female characters but I'm sure they'll have a collection of "hot babes" to ogle over without the worry that their parents will find the porn sites they've been frequenting.  But in the long term it will burn out even quicker than Aion did over here.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Samuraiko on December 17, 2012, 10:20:58 PM
When I went to see THE HOBBIT, it had not one... not two... but FIVE separate game ads before it.

Bioshock Infinite
GW 2
WoW: Kung Fu Panda
Something console-based
And an FPS, I think (both were Sony games)

Oh, *AND* an ad for Emerald City Comic-Con (because I live near Seattle).

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 17, 2012, 11:23:12 PM
when i went to movie theater last (to see wreck it ralph) i didnt see any game previews, only movie previews lol

if i had seen any for GW2 i sure as heck would have booed it
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 17, 2012, 11:45:59 PM
If COH had gotten any of the ad elements GW2 has enjoyed, it would have positively FLOURISHED.


/me grumbles.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: eabrace on December 18, 2012, 12:12:31 AM
Oddly enough, I don't recall seeing any game ads before the Hobbit when I went to see it on Friday afternoon.

I definitely would have remembered seeing a GW2 ad.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blondeshell on December 18, 2012, 12:24:16 AM
A GW2 ad played before the 3D showing at the NCG theater I went to.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: HarvesterOfEyes on December 18, 2012, 01:30:42 AM
While I agree that their stock is overvalued (I think 90,000-100,000 is a good price) they are far from having their finances structurally unsound.  However as long as most of the firms following NCSoft keep saying it's a buy opportunity and that the price will go to 300,000 within the year the 150,000-160,000 price seems to be it's new support level.

They just had a record profit for a quarter.  They have about $100 million in cash in the bank and another $300 million in short term investments.  Perhaps you could indicate what about their finances you find structurally unsound or did you think that just sounded good?
Key word is "if". I make no such assessment.

Down one session versus up the previous session is not "tanking".

I want to see NCSoft feel pain that makes them re-think their "strategy" as much as the next person here. My goal in this thread is to persuade people to disbelieve that day-to-day fluctuations indicate any such thing.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: corvus1970 on December 18, 2012, 01:42:18 AM
Stock-prices are like butterflies: they fly kind of crooked ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 18, 2012, 01:47:39 AM
Key word is "if". I make no such assessment.

Down one session versus up the previous session is not "tanking".

I want to see NCSoft feel pain that makes them re-think their "strategy" as much as the next person here. My goal in this thread is to persuade people to disbelieve that day-to-day fluctuations indicate any such thing.
Except a plummeting stock price doesn't hurt them.  Not one bit. 

Stock prices are simply a reflection of what others think a company is worth, not what it's actually worth.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kitsudragon on December 18, 2012, 02:13:44 AM
The ugly part is when they spin off NCSoft West to make the division into its own company.

Currently, NCSoft West is a department inside the NCSoft machine. After they pull off this restructuring they're talking about, NCSW will be a separate company, but wholly owned by NCSoft.

The company is trumpeting to anyone who'll listen that this move will allow them to "sell" about 78 billion Korean Won in related assets, which sounds really good on paper. The company sells a massive amount of unneeded infrastructure to another company, and makes a ton of profit doing it.

But since NCSW is going to be a wholly-owned subsidiary of the parent company, all they're really doing is restructuring one of their departments, and transferring assets around within the company. No money actually changes hands, except on paper. All the assets and money actually stay within the overall NCSoft corporation. But it looks good on the balance sheet.

So I expect the stock price will shoot up when they make that announcement, even though it doesn't actually *mean* anything...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 18, 2012, 03:22:53 AM
The ugly part is when they spin off NCSoft West to make the division into its own company.

Currently, NCSoft West is a department inside the NCSoft machine. After they pull off this restructuring they're talking about, NCSW will be a separate company, but wholly owned by NCSoft.

The company is trumpeting to anyone who'll listen that this move will allow them to "sell" about 78 billion Korean Won in related assets, which sounds really good on paper. The company sells a massive amount of unneeded infrastructure to another company, and makes a ton of profit doing it.

But since NCSW is going to be a wholly-owned subsidiary of the parent company, all they're really doing is restructuring one of their departments, and transferring assets around within the company. No money actually changes hands, except on paper. All the assets and money actually stay within the overall NCSoft corporation. But it looks good on the balance sheet.

So I expect the stock price will shoot up when they make that announcement, even though it doesn't actually *mean* anything...
Yes but the 78 billion KrW being paid for those assets, plus the 50 billion in initial start up money, is coming from somewhere and that's the stock this new subsidiary is selling to NCSoft proper so it will show up on the balance sheet still and the result is a wash.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: HarvesterOfEyes on December 18, 2012, 04:22:29 AM
Except a plummeting stock price doesn't hurt them.  Not one bit. 

Stock prices are simply a reflection of what others think a company is worth, not what it's actually worth.
Again, addressing a claim I don't make.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: TonyV on December 18, 2012, 04:58:09 AM
While I agree that their stock is overvalued (I think 90,000-100,000 is a good price) they are far from having their finances structurally unsound.

I don't necessarily agree with you; I think that at some point we're going to hear about some dirty laundry coming out about NCsoft.  But nevertheless, I'm glad you're here keeping the conversation honest.  Is that weird?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 18, 2012, 05:56:56 AM
While I agree that their stock is overvalued (I think 90,000-100,000 is a good price) they are far from having their finances structurally unsound.  However as long as most of the firms following NCSoft keep saying it's a buy opportunity and that the price will go to 300,000 within the year the 150,000-160,000 price seems to be it's new support level.

"Joe," the Korean Times reporter, told me that the suspicion around the paper is that the three firms following NCSoft are being bribed to inflate the value of the stock, but that there is not as yet any proof.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 18, 2012, 05:58:06 AM
"Joe," the Korean Times reporter, told me that the suspicion around the paper is that the three firms following NCSoft are being bribed to inflate the value of the stock, but that there is not as yet any proof.

interesting, hopefully that reporter will continue to investigate, if they find something scandelous happening this could tank ncsoft faster than them constantly shooting themselves in the foot
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JanessaVR on December 18, 2012, 06:08:36 AM
I don't necessarily agree with you; I think that at some point we're going to hear about some dirty laundry coming out about NCsoft.  But nevertheless, I'm glad you're here keeping the conversation honest.  Is that weird?
Nope.  This is war, and we should always try to be honest with ourselves how well it's going.  Keeping it real - a good thing.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 18, 2012, 08:16:58 AM
if they find something scandelous happening this could tank ncsoft faster than them constantly shooting themselves in the foot
Not to be pedantic, but that would be NCsoft shooting themselves in the foot.  Well, the leg, anyway.  They've kinda blown both feet completely off by now.

Sometimes, honesty is the best policy; something NCsoft could really stand to learn.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 18, 2012, 10:28:43 AM
"Joe," the Korean Times reporter, told me that the suspicion around the paper is that the three firms following NCSoft are being bribed to inflate the value of the stock, but that there is not as yet any proof.
Sadly those three aren't the only ones.  I present the summary of analysts tracking NCSoft page (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/analyst?symbol=036570.KS) from Reuters.

39 are tracking NCSoft.  13 are recommending Buy, 25 predict it'll outperform  (which conventional investment wisdom means hold if you have it, think of buying if you don't) and only 1 is recommending sell (which actually means "fly you fools").  And the only change in the last three months is one outperform changed to buy.  Collectively the mean growth in sales is predicted to be around 24% between 2012 and 2013 with earnings nearly doubling.  In the last four weeks only 2 analysts lowered their sales and earnings estimate for FY2012 and 2013 but they don't say from what to what.

Collectively 38 of the 39 still like NCSoft a lot and are predicting better savings and earnings in 2013.  They must be using something stronger than fluoride in the investment district's water supply.  Or they do know what they are talking about and if the stock price continues to go down I would expect more analysts changing from outperform to buy recommendations, as long as the scuttlebutt doesn't indicate a complete collapse in sales of their current MMO portfolio.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 18, 2012, 10:56:09 AM
It's possible they are banking on Bits and Tits becoming as enormous in China as Lineage and Guild Wars are.  And it might, but only if the current Chinese government reverses its stance on things it considers pornographic--or at least, looks (or is bribed to look) the other way when the game is released.  The Chinese government has historically been perfectly willing to ban things with milder content than B&T.

They might pull their fat out of the fire and go on to win, despite a bucketload of negative karma.

Or, something "Joe" suggested to me could break loose and we'll be watching from a distance as NCSoft finds itself with a much bigger problem on its hands than a hundred thousand angry gamers.

I'm not going to make a guess on that one, we'll just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: General Idiot on December 18, 2012, 03:19:54 PM
Quote
Or, something "Joe" suggested to me could break loose and we'll be watching from a distance as NCSoft finds itself with a much bigger problem on its hands than a hundred thousand angry gamers.

And on that day, I'll quite probably get properly drunk for the first time in my life. Both in celebration of NCSoft as a company finally getting what they deserve, and in sympathy for all the little guys that event is going to put out of a job.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 18, 2012, 03:30:32 PM
Now, the question is, is there anything (legal and above-board) that 100,000 angry (ex)fans can do to make it more likely this much bigger problem gets exposed?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: HarvesterOfEyes on December 18, 2012, 06:04:23 PM
Daniel: What do you expect me to do?
Miyagi: Focus.
Daniel: Great, and what are you gonna do?
Miyagi: Pray.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: malonkey1 on December 18, 2012, 07:08:09 PM
From the Jackie Chan/Jeden Smith version:

"Your focus needs more focus."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Blackbird71 on December 18, 2012, 08:04:35 PM
From the Jackie Chan/Jeden Smith version:

"Your focus needs more focus."

I'm sorry, I know not of what you speak; Pat Morita is the only Mr. Miyagi to have existed.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Mentalshock on December 18, 2012, 08:08:31 PM
Except that Jackie Chan's character was not called Miyagi.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 18, 2012, 08:26:53 PM
It's possible they are banking on Bits and Tits becoming as enormous in China as Lineage and Guild Wars are.  And it might, but only if the current Chinese government reverses its stance on things it considers pornographic--or at least, looks (or is bribed to look) the other way when the game is released.  The Chinese government has historically been perfectly willing to ban things with milder content than B&T.

They might pull their fat out of the fire and go on to win, despite a bucketload of negative karma.

Or, something "Joe" suggested to me could break loose and we'll be watching from a distance as NCSoft finds itself with a much bigger problem on its hands than a hundred thousand angry gamers.

I'm not going to make a guess on that one, we'll just have to wait and see.
Well the question then is if they look at B&S and see pornography or not.  I admit that some of the female dance emotes can be ... suggestive, but no more so than what you would see in a club.  The character designer can feel creepy to some but it's not like you have sliders for, pardon me, areola size, nipple size or ... em ... carpet hair styles.

Personally I don't think they will have a problem with B&S.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 18, 2012, 08:38:25 PM
I'm sorry, I know not of what you speak; Pat Morita is the only Mr. Miyagi to have existed.

Except that Jackie Chan's character was not called Miyagi.

So, it's still true! ;D
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JanessaVR on December 18, 2012, 08:47:24 PM
Well the question then is if they look at B&S and see pornography or not.  I admit that some of the female dance emotes can be ... suggestive, but no more so than what you would see in a club.  The character designer can feel creepy to some but it's not like you have sliders for, pardon me, areola size, nipple size or ... em ... carpet hair styles.
I find this sufficiently amusing to ask - do we know that for sure?   :)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 18, 2012, 09:15:31 PM
China is also shown to be very amenable to having custom versions released.

If all they have to do is tone it down a bit, they will.

I've also heard more than once about China being convinced something isn't so bad with cash. Can't prove it, but I've heard it. So I wouldn't go laughing to the bank on the thought that Blade and Soul will be not even released there.

What is more likely is that it will, and has a chance of doing fairly decently. CoH will not be regained because B&S failed to see a release in China, and likely not because said game fails to engender money from MMO-goers.

Just to keep things appropriately realistic  :-\
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JaguarX on December 18, 2012, 09:22:23 PM
Well the question then is if they look at B&S and see pornography or not.  I admit that some of the female dance emotes can be ... suggestive, but no more so than what you would see in a club.  The character designer can feel creepy to some but it's not like you have sliders for, pardon me, areola size, nipple size or ... em ... carpet hair styles.

Personally I don't think they will have a problem with B&S.

Besides the more detailed graphics, I havent seen anything fro mthe photos that I havent seen already in COX (lot of toons wearing the Eden top especially), CO, and other games i.e scantly cladded females with the tit slider slid to the max. Even seen a few "naked" ones in COX where, even in their bio it stated that they are naked (victory server) *white skin to match the bikini bottom and eden top*, another one was same except this one was a light blue peacebringer with blended clothing to give illusion of wearing nothing. 

When B&S come out I'll go check it out to see how deep the rabbit hole it really go in that regards but so far, it's nothing unusual and nothing not seen in COX many times. 
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 18, 2012, 10:11:28 PM
Besides the more detailed graphics, I havent seen anything fro mthe photos that I havent seen already in COX (lot of toons wearing the Eden top especially), CO, and other games i.e scantly cladded females with the tit slider slid to the max. Even seen a few "naked" ones in COX where, even in their bio it stated that they are naked (victory server) *white skin to match the bikini bottom and eden top*, another one was same except this one was a light blue peacebringer with blended clothing to give illusion of wearing nothing. 

When B&S come out I'll go check it out to see how deep the rabbit hole it really go in that regards but so far, it's nothing unusual and nothing not seen in COX many times.
I had a pale white peacebringer in white mesh and bikini bottom to give the illusion of nudity.  But she also had wings, a halo and glowed rather brightly in that form.  It was used as a transition as she changed from her teen pop raver identity to her armored winged Valkyrie outfit.

While B&S's costume editor does have more than one adjustment for breasts and videos isolating a single female character dancing could be considered provocative, but I've also seen videos in game of characters simply hanging around between missions dancing and it didn't look provocative at all.  Pretty standard MMO behavior IMO.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 19, 2012, 12:02:01 AM
I had a pale white peacebringer in white mesh and bikini bottom to give the illusion of nudity.

My main character was silver-gray skinned. While I never did this (okay, during the shut down period, I did it ONCE just to do it because hey why not, but I only wore it for the minimal amount of time) it was very easy to make her a naked outfit.

Pop dance could look pretty naughty in the right outfit.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: dwturducken on December 19, 2012, 01:09:30 AM
I had a few characters that had a costume slot that was probably not suitable for children that were pretty much just for dropping into a crowd and either disco or pop dancing. One, a Power Girl clone, was particularly popular when she did the monkey dance.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Xieveral on December 19, 2012, 03:35:54 AM
Sorry to derail the derail of proper ERP dresscode and conduct...

I just checked up to see how stocks were doing today (whether or not a dip matters in the long run... its some small entertainment in this otherwise boring life of mine) apparently its done for the day. It certainly can't be the end of the trading day in Korea...

Are they trading stateside now? That's the only reason I could think of, but wouldn't KR and US be separate?

Back off topic...seeing that a friend "wore" peach-colored briefs under his kilt will haunt me forever :gonk:
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 19, 2012, 04:10:20 AM
Sorry to derail the derail of proper ERP dresscode and conduct...

I just checked up to see how stocks were doing today (whether or not a dip matters in the long run... its some small entertainment in this otherwise boring life of mine) apparently its done for the day. It certainly can't be the end of the trading day in Korea...

Are they trading stateside now? That's the only reason I could think of, but wouldn't KR and US be separate?

Back off topic...seeing that a friend "wore" peach-colored briefs under his kilt will haunt me forever :gonk:
No the stock is traded in Korea but you can track it here.  They are open from 9a to 3p in Korea which would be from 7pm to 1am EST.  Their ID is 036570:KS.  Currently they are down 1000 to 157,000.  The opened higher and had a trading range from 162,500 to 154,000.  This (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS) is the link to Reuter's stock page on them.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Xieveral on December 19, 2012, 10:14:01 AM
No the stock is traded in Korea but you can track it here.  They are open from 9a to 3p in Korea which would be from 7pm to 1am EST.  Their ID is 036570:KS.  Currently they are down 1000 to 157,000.  The opened higher and had a trading range from 162,500 to 154,000.  This (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS) is the link to Reuter's stock page on them.

Incoming slowpoke reply...

I know the usual trading hours (4-10PM for me). I checked Reuter's, Bloomberg and Yahoo shortly before my previous post and they all showed it as closed for the day which seemed odd. Correct me if I'm wrong but, they have/had a presidential election this month so maybe that made for an early close just as college entry exams made for a late start last month.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 19, 2012, 10:37:26 AM
My bad.  The one day chart page at Reuters mentions the exchanged closed on the 19th for a national holiday.  Didn't notice that before and yes, it's because of election day (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2012/12/18/56/0301000000AEN20121218001200315F.HTML).
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Artillerie on December 19, 2012, 01:50:13 PM
Came across this on a Facebook page. Thought i'd post it here as it may have some effect on NC stock ( not completely certain about that but hey ).

http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/12/lineage-ii-new-europe-server-suffers-mass-account-bans/

Seems quite a lot of accounts on a new Lineage II server have been randomly banned for apparently no reason and that is never good for business.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: DJMoose on December 19, 2012, 05:07:32 PM
Came across this on a Facebook page. Thought i'd post it here as it may have some effect on NC stock ( not completely certain about that but hey ).

http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/12/lineage-ii-new-europe-server-suffers-mass-account-bans/

Seems quite a lot of accounts on a new Lineage II server have been randomly banned for apparently no reason and that is never good for business.
Oh NCSoft/Nexon...when will you learn to stop screwing over your playerbase?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 19, 2012, 05:35:39 PM
Hopefully not until they declare bankrupcy. :p
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 19, 2012, 06:09:15 PM
Hopefully not until they declare bankrupcy. :p

They already appear morally bankrupt.

Does that count?
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on December 19, 2012, 06:12:54 PM
They already appear morally bankrupt.

Does that count?

Unfortunately, no.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: FatherXmas on December 19, 2012, 06:21:55 PM
Came across this on a Facebook page. Thought i'd post it here as it may have some effect on NC stock ( not completely certain about that but hey ).

http://www.mmoculture.com/2012/12/lineage-ii-new-europe-server-suffers-mass-account-bans/

Seems quite a lot of accounts on a new Lineage II server have been randomly banned for apparently no reason and that is never good for business.
Which appears on the surface a automated script that ran amuck.  Reminds me of the great AE ban or before mARTY was fine tuned.

Looking around in their forums I found this (http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?p=3293070#post3293070) post from their CM.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: General Idiot on December 19, 2012, 09:12:11 PM
I like how after that post there's not a single post saying thanks, it's fixed now. Every last one is either saying the CM is flat wrong and they're still banned when they presumably shouldn't be, or people complaining about bots. :p
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Segev on December 19, 2012, 09:16:31 PM
Totally off-topic tangent, but the comment about people complaining about 'bots made my brain jump to this:

An MMO that uses the Transformers IP and reports hundreds of thousands of player characters, each actually controlled by a 'bot.

"Robots in Disguise."
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kistulot on December 20, 2012, 12:28:30 AM
Totally off-topic tangent, but the comment about people complaining about 'bots made my brain jump to this:

An MMO that uses the Transformers IP and reports hundreds of thousands of player characters, each actually controlled by a 'bot.

"Robots in Disguise."

A friend of mine has a status message indicating they got an A in a class for programming a robotic car.

If these bots can do that too (the car bit, not the programming bit) then I am behind you 500%.

Transform, and roll out!
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 20, 2012, 01:40:46 AM
http://guildwars2pc.com/2012/guild-wars-2-daily-news-34000-bot-accounts-banished-in-november-purge/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_39659 (http://guildwars2pc.com/2012/guild-wars-2-daily-news-34000-bot-accounts-banished-in-november-purge/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_39659)


Quote
Larry: Well that is the thing; my money laundering theory depends upon bots like that. You create bots to go buy stuff then delete the account. The items and money are not refunded, they are erased, leaving NCsoft ultimately with stacks of untracable money.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Terwyn on December 20, 2012, 01:46:06 AM
[Spock]
Fascinating.
[/Spock]
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: NecrotechMaster on December 20, 2012, 07:29:41 AM
looks like ncsofts stock took another nosedive really recently, its down about 6% at 147,500 won, which is only about 6500 won above their 52 week low
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: JanessaVR on December 20, 2012, 07:36:23 AM
looks like ncsofts stock took another nosedive really recently, its down about 6% at 147,500 won, which is only about 6500 won above their 52 week low
I'm starting to wonder if we need an NCLimp stock price drinking game at this rate... ;)
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: mikoroshi on December 20, 2012, 07:37:55 AM
I'm starting to wonder if we need an NCLimp stock price drinking game at this rate... ;)

Do you *want* alcohol poisoning??
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Xieveral on December 20, 2012, 08:37:58 AM
Do you *want* alcohol poisoning??

This. You can kiss your liver goodbye within the first hour.

DROP up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down, DROP, down, down, down, SUDDEN RISE,up, down, up, down, up, down, up...
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 20, 2012, 10:44:40 AM
I'm starting to wonder if we need an NCLimp stock price drinking game at this rate... ;)

I need to be sober to work....
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: mikoroshi on December 20, 2012, 11:16:45 AM
I need to be sober to work....

But... you're a writer!

<clings to whiskey bottle lovingly>

Remember the Hemingway tradition! *hic*
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: Kaiser Tarantula on December 20, 2012, 12:38:50 PM
The latest  stock pricing (http://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=036570.KS) has me cackling maniacally.  They're almost back to Dec 6th levels of stock price suckitude.  Right now, they're as bad off as they were on Apr 20, 2010.
Title: Re: NCSoft Stockwatch
Post by: The Fif