Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: TonyV on October 02, 2012, 10:47:34 PM
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So if you haven't seen it already, NCsoft has officially communicated on the SaveCoH effort (http://us.ncsoft.com/en/news/response-to-city-of-heroes-player-and-fan-suggestions.html), saying that they feel that all efforts have been exhausted in selling City of Heroes. I wanted to post a short message acknowledging that I did see it, and to share my thoughts about it.
While this isn't an ideal situation, I cannot emphasize this enough: This is not a horrible thing. As far as I'm concerned, the only bad outcome of our efforts would be if everyone gives up on our efforts to save City of Heroes. We've known all along that this is a possibility (our first clue was on August 31 when they said, "We're shutting everything down..."), and it's one we've been preparing for. So seriously, don't panic, and any doom-crying is still grossly premature.
In a way, this actually helps us. Until now, we've been holding out hope that the negotiations between Paragon Studios and NCsoft would come through and make any further activities unneeded. As long as we were proceeding from that assumption, we've been trying to be very careful to not undermine those negotiations. At this point, I don't think that any negotiations are taking place any longer, which frees us up quite a bit more in pursuing alternatives such as reverse engineering and developing a new game.
Believe it or not, I'm still hopeful that NCsoft at some point realizes that this is not the way to go. They might shut down the servers on November 30, but you never know what management changes in the future might bring about. Having worked in the corporate world and been involved in the IT industry in some capacity for over two decades, I've learned that situations do change and you should never, ever say never. I'm also going to try to drum up some press around not just the City of Heroes community, but the issue at large of a game like this shutting down, the impact it has on its community, and what ethical responsibilities (if any) companies have to do what they can to not destroy communities like ours because of a business decision when there options available like we have.
Still, at this point, at least for now, I think that our efforts should be fully focused on reverse engineering the game servers (which they are). I also highly suggest that you use the Sentinel+ Extractor (http://cit.cohtitan.com/sentinelplus/) character export tool to export your characters. Even if those data files aren't used directly by CoH-derived servers, I'm sure we'll figure out some use for them at some point in the future. And of course, we still have an active contingent of people looking to develop an entirely new game (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,138.0.html) to follow in City of Heroes' footsteps. I'm also definitely going to keep my ear to the Paragon Studios rail to find out what their intentions are going forward; regardless of the ultimate fate of City of Heroes, I feel like they've proven that they can develop and run a successful game, and we might have some unique opportunities due to our long history as a community supporting their endeavors to be a part of that development process if they decide to take on another poject. (No, not in the sense of being on the board of directors, but in offering feedback on what we liked about City of Heroes, what we didn't care for so much, and things we'd like to see.)
And speaking of community, no matter what happens, I fully intend to keep the Titan Network up and active for players to continue interacting and discuss our efforts. So please stay tuned, you're not going to want to miss out on any good stuff. :)
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if you are like me and do not have all of your toons unlocked, you can transfer them to the test and beta servers for saving through Sentinel.
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Thanks for the swift update, Tony!
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This fight ain't over yet, kids. Strap on your Big Boy/Big Girl Pants, your Stompin' Boots, and let's get to it.
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Thanks for the reply Tony.
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Thanks for the update, TonyV; I'm still holding out for more information (though you'll likely hear before I, thanks to your closer proximity to that proverbial rail with Paragon Studios).
Please let me know if there's aught I can do going forward. And if you've got any input on timing for the Media Day event while you start looking into drumming up more media support, please comment in the relevant thread! I'm enthused by the support I'm getting from Titan Forumites; I want to close the loop on it from the media side at least as strongly!
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Just read ncsoft statement and it put me in the dumps but reading your post has pick me up a bit thanks Tony
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thanks for the fast update. This really is depressing but I do have hope. I still feel that CoX will be save. Somehow.
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Must be pretty easy to say they've exhausted all options when the talks and investors have had to be so secretive all along. Regardless, thanks for the update Tony!
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OK so it doesn't work this way - there are other ways.
Someone needs to go to Korea and have a conversation with them. Either that or we all go and sit outside NC Soft hq.
There are ALWAYS other options .. it's NEVER an issue of 'exhausted ALL options' .. it's ALWAYS an issue of "we've done what we're willing to do" .
I resent organisations that imply that there isn't more to do .. it's the ******** 21st Century!!
Of course more can be done - it's not a matter of capability, it's a matter of WILL! Apparently they don't have the will or the motivation to make it work, and that's their prerogative. I just wish companies and corporations would grab themselves by the requisite paraphernalia and make statements that actually come from their most authentic motivations.
"We had fun, we made money, we don't care enough to take this further, k thx bai!!" and that's their right to say that, not smudge it over with silly PR speak. Pffft!
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Just one thing to say to all of this
Army Mule Mode: ACTIVATE!!
I ain't givin' up. How about the rest of you?
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Thank you Tony for the update and being a voice of reason while keeping our spirits up.
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reverse engineering the game servers
What's the exact legal status on that? Like how secret would we have to be to use them?
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Do we have confirmation of this from anyone on "our side?"
And if negotiations have indeed ended, would that mean the Paragon remnant can actually tell us a simple "Yes" or "No?"
And, you don't see any way this might be bogus?
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I'm not giving up, how could I? If there was an online community worth fighting for? It's this one just by everything we done so far and will keep doing. Don't drink the NCSOFT-aid people don't give in and lose all hope. We need to keep going and well there's always trials like this in life. Also Tony's right don't give up. I'll keep going I have to keep going if only for the sake of my SG's members who are heart broken at the game's impending doom. For that tiny chance we could turn it around, that's why I can't give up.
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Well... Typical corporate BS.
*cracks knuckles*
Let's get to it.
Tony, I know to stay polite, and when we are ready to turn the heat up while staying heroic and true, my heavy duty blowtorch is at your command.
I will NOT give up. I will NOT lay down. I will NOT let my second home go away without one HELL OF A FIGHT.
Remember, there is ALWAYS a Sunrise after a Sunset, no matter HOW LONG IT TAKES!!
My torches will be held high no matter how long it takes.
Phoenix
EDIT: P.S. Crystallum is NOT pleased. She will take the fight to them...
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Thanks for the update Tony, I'll still keep playing and doing what I can to save this game. As others posted, what are the odds of rounding up the Paragon studios dev team and having them start a new studio? Is it possible to do a kickstarter for something like that?
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Can I start lambasting NCsoft at full speed yet? I don't know how much longer I can hold all this anger in.
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Can I start lambasting NCsoft at full speed yet? I don't know how much longer I can hold all this anger in.
Calm. Tranquility. The time to lash out and use our rage is not yet at hand. Strike aggressively too soon, and we concede victory.
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Calm. Tranquility. The time to lash out and use our rage is not yet at hand. Strike aggressively too soon, and we concede victory.
I think it's about time they start feeling the sting though. And really, that isn't just about the game. It's about a much bigger picture. It affects the whole world. Some people have been trying to convey this message for years, maybe decades. But it's a very serious issue that has gotten way out of control, and something desperately needs to be done about it.
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Calm. Tranquility. The time to lash out and use our rage is not yet at hand. Strike aggressively too soon, and we concede victory.
Well, we should appeal to their stockholders then.
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Thanks for updating us, Tony, and thanks for staying positive. I'm not giving up. We'll find a way.
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I'm not so sure they were ever open to any options. This is NCSoft that has killed numerous games before.
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In my opinion, this is nowhere near the end of the fight. Rather, with this announcement, the battle has now begun.
Up until now, we've been assembling forces, reviewing strategies, drumming up public support, and in general simply preparing for today.
Now, the time is upon us. This is the moment when we are called to be at the top of our game.
This is the point when our passion, our patience, our strength as a community will all be put to the test.
So stand firm. Hold those torches high. Be the heroes you truly are.
Because that IS what we are, and this IS what we do.
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I think it's about time they start feeling the sting though. And really, that isn't just about the game. It's about a much bigger picture. It affects the whole world. Some people have been trying to convey this message for years, maybe decades. But it's a very serious issue that has gotten way out of control, and something desperately needs to be done about it.
I'm reaching the breaking point with maintaining composure to not compromise our efforts... but after the go ahead, I will probably be cutting a scathing, foul, aggressive promo on NCsoft, the likes of which I've never done before.
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Hi Tony,
Thanks for all your efforts organizing the #savecoh movement.
I have a question or two:
1. It from the announcement sounds like Paragon Studios was negotiating with NCSoft, which I was surprised at because I thought it was completely owned by NCSoft and closed. Do you know if other investment groups, including player-owned ones, have been in negotiation with NCSoft? If possible, players and others might be able to add additional financial backing.
2. Do you know why the negotiations failed? I wonder what terms could've prevented them from selling versus just turning it off.
3. Wouldn't any attempts to launch servers reverse engineered by observing the game client result in legal action by NCSoft?
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EDIT: If they really want to kill us, couldn't they revoke our fan site license for Paragon Wiki?
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Thanks as always Tony. I absolutely love seeing the collection of 1 post users in this thread (and in others), damage control or not, this announcement doesn't appear to be costing us any members. The opposite in fact. Fight on, guys.
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I feel like with their stock numbers going in the direction they're going now (yeah I know it's too short term to call a trend, but considering this is immediately following the launch of a blockbuster game and the announcement of another game in the works, you'd think it'd be much higher) if we can keep strong then we can force their hand and suddenly those "exhausted options" won't look so exhausted to them.
This response feels far too PR-y to me, especially in its wording. It looks like they're trying to shut us up and save face. If I remember correctly from my communications classes, face is very important in Asian cultures, I doubt Korea is any different. So it basically means we have to show them they'll lose more face by killing the game than they will by reversing their decision. Sure reversing the decision might make them look weak, but not reversing it will make them look heartless.
Bad stock numbers + losing face... it all adds up to "We can win this!"
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Hi Tony,
Thanks for all your efforts organizing the #savecoh movement.
I have a question or two:
1. It from the announcement sounds like Paragon Studios was negotiating with NCSoft, which I was surprised at because I thought it was completely owned by NCSoft and closed. Do you know if other investment groups, including player-owned ones, have been in negotiation with NCSoft? If possible, players and others might be able to add additional financial backing.
2. Do you know why the negotiations failed? I wonder what terms could've prevented them from selling versus just turning it off.
3. Wouldn't any attempts to launch servers reverse engineered by observing the game client result in legal action by NCSoft?
I can help you out a little bit.
1. It is confirmed that others have at least approached NCSoft with serious offers, but failed to even receive a response. Those people can tell you more (one of them is here, don't remember who though).
2. I don't think anyone knows this at the moment.
3. Possibly. This is to be worked out later, I suppose.
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We should probably start looking at spreading the bad PR to Nexon too.
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It is confirmed that others have at least approached NCSoft with serious offers, but failed to even receive a response. Those people can tell you more (one of them is here, don't remember who though).
Perhaps NC should rephrase then. Negotiations didn't fail. NC failed to open negotiations.
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Perhaps NC should rephrase then. Negotiations didn't fail. NC failed to open negotiations.
At the risk of snark, that kind of openness is out of character for them.
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At the risk of snark, that kind of openness is out of character for them.
At the expense of my normally upbeat attitude, I am beginning to believe that intelligence is out of character for them. But you know, it's all perspective and I'm having a hell of time trying to put myself in their shoes.
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I just realized that I don't think I've thanked you, Tony. I'd like to add my voice of appreciation for what you've done and are doing.
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2. Do you know why the negotiations failed? I wonder what terms could've prevented them from selling versus just turning it off.
Most likely they never entered into negotiations in good faith to begin with, and put the buyout amount at a ridiculous number (http://youtu.be/cf7uJDhVZIE).
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"We've exhausted all options including the selling of the studio and the rights to the City of Heroes intellectual property, but in the end, efforts to do so were not successful."
I'm sorry but i call BS on this. Thats a lie. If they wanted to sell it they could have. The only reason i can see that they actually couldn't is if they wanted way more then anyone had or they don't own the rights and whoever does won't sell. So which is it and how do we get more money together to buy it?
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NcSoft will never ever get another dime of my money. I dont care what they make. I will tell everyone I know to never ever spend a dime on their products or their company again.
I also think it was very interesting that this comes out after the dinner that was brought for the devs and people were encouraged to keep trying and keep pushing.. very tactical..
TonyV I would say that NY Comic Con event can be very very very key to the community..
To the community I will say this.. NCSoft is NOT City of Heroes..
YOU are City of Heroes..
I believe that the spirit of this game will live on in some form or another no matter what happens..
Now that being said. The former Paragon Studio staff has been TOO quiet. I understand NDA's and all that but their is a way to leak information through channels to get the word out that you need people to hear.... and it needs to be more than... keep hope alive..
If the negotiations are over we need to know..
If you have stopped and given up we need to know..
If you are going to form another studio and work on something else.. we need to know..
if you are going to work with what has started here.. we need to know..
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Hail!
Some say there are dark clouds massing, swirling like a vortex over a desert plain. However, I do not see that. I see shining beacons that are poking holes through the blanketed gray that suffocates a blue sky. I see pillars of light, as the beacons combine to become cylinder beams of hope, rays of justice breaking through the confines of the unknown. What once was darkness is now being revealed as a new land, a new horizon, a new tomorrow; a new beginning.
I see a single spark of imagination laying there, right at your feet, and all you have to do is scoop it up and let the excess grains slip through your fingers, craddle that small seed of imagination and tell it what you want it to be. Believe in it, speak to it, and breathe life into it. Plant it, digging deep into the strange soil, and then stand back and watch it grow into something beautiful.
This is what you are capable of.
This is not the end of the fight, Good Team. It's your calling to express your true heroism.
Do not give in.
I won't.
Sincerely,
Fansy
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There you have it. The Bard has spoken. Go suit up, guys.
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NcSoft.. you have angered me.. Im about to eat a Yellow and Red skittle, hit Aim and Build Up and go NOVA...
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Well, we should appeal to their stockholders then.
THIS! This is a grand idea! Has anyone attempted to contact Nexon? If I recall correctly they DO own a large portion of NCSoft stock...
I'm not saying Nexon would be the ideal company to take over. But they do pretty well with Free-to-Play games and communities similar to ours.
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Have a feeling NCSoft "negotiates" the way that Corbin Dallas negotiates. :P
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There you have it. The Bard has spoken. Go suit up, guys.
Now I'm just trying to interpret it.
Is it about Plan Z, the private servers, or the live game?
And I have to do it while feeling like I just stepped into a scene from the Neverending Story with the "single seed of imagination" metaphor. ;D
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We should probably start looking at spreading the bad PR to Nexon too.
No, don't do that. We might need Nexon later.
Also, I read the press release from NCSoft twice. I thought to myself, why would they go out of their way to make a press release about the Save CoH movement when they pretty much already "won"? If they say and do nothing, the servers will still be shut down Nov 30th, and we'll be forced to disperse anyway.
The only reason I can think of is that they're starting to feel pressure from investors and stockholders, and they need us to stop protesting and silently accept it NOW, long before the servers shut down. They need something, and we're between them and what they need.
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um correct me if I am wrong because I am not that up on these things.. but isnt Nexon also Perfect World ??
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THIS! This is a grand idea! Has anyone attempted to contact Nexon? If I recall correctly they DO own a large portion of NCSoft stock...
I'm not saying Nexon would be the ideal company to take over. But they do pretty well with Free-to-Play games and communities similar to ours.
Uhm not trying to down your idea but I would think that if Nexon do own a good amount of stock, I dont think this decision was made without them knowing.
It is possible and if so and if Nexon just so happen think it was a stupid decision, then that may turn into a good amount of bonus if not an outright jackpot for this cause.
At the very least we should at least check and see if Nexon had anything to do with the decision. It might be Nexon who suggested in the first place. WAIT!! DONT KILL ME!!! I'm just speculating on some possibilites and really have no idea how a buisness of that level works very well.
Edit: although I do own some stock in some companies and was actually gathering money up to invest in NCSoft (Well before the announcement) and usualy before any decision is made whether it is for an idea to buy a company or an idea to get rid of a subsid. I get a letter in the mail or email about a stockholders meeting to discuss the proposal. Maybe NCSOft works differently and dont tell the stockholders anything. Even if they agree with the closing down they might be pissed about being left out of the loop.
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No, don't do that. We might need Nexon later.
Also, I read the press release from NCSoft twice. I thought to myself, why would they go out of their way to make a press release about the Save CoH movement when they pretty much already "won"? If they say and do nothing, the servers will still be shut down Nov 30th, and we'll be forced to disperse anyway.
The only reason I can think of is that they're starting to feel pressure from investors and stockholders, and they need us to stop protesting and silently accept it NOW, long before the servers shut down. They need something, and we're between them and what they need.
Hail, Heroes!
Put some pressure on Tony to read his messages and reply back to me. I'll need his help if we're going to move forward.
8)
The only thing that NCsoft reply did was encourage my contacts to want to rise up even more. NCsoft has answered my e-mail with an air of uncertainty, as well as many others who have sent in Official Letters from sources you wouldn't even begin to believe that have offered their assistance via publicists and personal signed hand written over night mail. Celebrities that think what is happening is not cool.
Celebrities that are more than willing to say hello to the community and video record it.
Tony, what say you?
Ready for the next step?
Waiting on a sixth string,
Fansy
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This should prove highly entertaining. Get the popcorn ready, sounds like Fansy's gonna give us a show.
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This response feels far too PR-y to me, especially in its wording. It looks like they're trying to shut us up and save face.
I agree; it seems like they're trying to increase their Bad PR Defense by getting us to shut up. What they don't get is that we're not going to give up, we're gonna pop a couple yellows and a few reds and come at them even harder!
Fight on!
The only reason I can think of is that they're starting to feel pressure from investors and stockholders, and they need us to stop protesting and silently accept it NOW, long before the servers shut down. They need something, and we're between them and what they need.
Your argument makes a lot of sense. Fortunately for us, I expect that our noise will not only maintain its current level, but increase (and maybe get a bit nasty, the way some people on the CoH forums were talking).
If we keep the pressure up, they'll pop like a swollen zit.
(my most sincere apologies for the imagery, but I hope it got a few chuckles from those who needed to have them)
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Hail, Heroes!
Put some pressure on Tony to read his messages and reply back to me. I'll need his help if we're going to move forward.
8)
The only thing that NCsoft reply did was encourage my contacts to want to rise up even more. NCsoft has answered my e-mail with an air of uncertainty, as well as many others who have sent in Official Letters from sources you wouldn't even begin to believe that have offered their assistance via publicists and personal signed hand written over night mail. Celebrities that think what is happening is not cool.
Celebrities that are more than willing to say hello to the community and video record it.
Tony, what say you?
Ready for the next step?
Waiting on a sixth string,
Fansy
You're making my knees weak.
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Hey, for those who SERIOUSLY have no doubts, and are headstrong, REPEAT AFTER ME! :::: ""It's OKAY, WE got this, defined by struggle, unified by devotion, it's OKAY, WE got this, Lives intertwined and strengthened by time, It's OKAY, WE got this, Heroes ALIVE Villains STRIVE, It's OKAY, WE got this, Do or Die, Run or Fly, It's OKAY, WE got this, for the Vets, the fallen, the REAL LIFE HEROES, It's OKAY, WE got this, To our FAMILIES, It's OKAY, WE got this, I myself the underdog, IT'S OKAY, BECAUSE NO MATTER WHAT, WE. GOT. THIS!"" :: Now just copy the quote, repost here, and on your pages, blogs and forums, OUR CHANT, OUR CITY OF HEROES, Please! Let us TURN UP THE HEAT! Love and Respect CoH Community!!!
Oh, and TonyV, if you wish, please feel welcome to use this quote and pass it along :)
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Thank you for this update, Tony! I just love your positive attitude and ability to cut to the chase. Rock on!
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At the very least we should at least check and see if Nexon had anything to do with the decision. It might be Nexon who suggested in the first place. WAIT!! DONT KILL ME!!! I'm just speculating on some possibilites and really have no idea how a buisness of that level works very well.
That's actually my theory - that Nexon, having just bought a big chunk of the company and presumably with some private assurances of "hey, everything is going great here", reacted to the huge loss in Q2 by saying "You're bleeding money and you need to do something significant to show you are taking the situation seriously. If not, the next stockholder's meeting we'll see about installing some management that will." I don't think they specified City of Heroes, but if management felt it had to close a game and close it NOW, CoH was the small fry in terms of income coming in and projected future income.
I've got no evidence to prove it, and it could just as well have been some other significant stockholder or debt holder.
Anyone know when NCSoft announces Q3 results? If it's as bad/worse, then the stockholders might react to a plea of "The idiot management is leaving money on the table"
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I agree; it seems like they're trying to increase their Bad PR Defense by getting us to shut up. What they don't get is that we're not going to give up, we're gonna pop a couple yellows and a few reds and come at them even harder!
Fight on!
Obviously they don't understand heroes or the internet.
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Who do I have to fry?!
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.writeups.org%2Fimg%2Finset%2FTim_Enchanter_kaboom_h.jpg)
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Who do I have to fry?!
YES!
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so, the bob seger thing...my dad is at his house right now and i told him to bring it up but not ask him to do anything yet becuase i don't know what to ask him to do...so what do we tell him? I mean if he is interested.
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The only thing that NCsoft reply did was encourage my contacts to want to rise up even more. NCsoft has answered my e-mail with an air of uncertainty, as well as many others who have sent in Official Letters from sources you wouldn't even begin to believe that have offered their assistance via publicists and personal signed hand written over night mail. Celebrities that think what is happening is not cool.
If you have any NCSoft contact emails/addresses I probably don't have, PM them to me. I'll tell you why when you send them. :)
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Well, that press release was politely worded BS.
Not you, Tony, them.
Basically they want us to shut up and go away. Well, on November 30th we will, but not without making enough noise that NCSoft becomes the game company that all of the other companies laugh at in the halls.
Even if we cannot save our game, we can make this an example of 'how not to do it.'
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so, the bob seger thing...my dad is at his house right now and i told him to bring it up but not ask him to do anything yet becuase i don't know what to ask him to do...so what do we tell him? I mean if he is interested.
Find out how he's willing to help first. That's less imposing than asking for something specific.
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[tl;dr]
OK, I know that I mentioned somewhere having been to the peace museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagasaki_Atomic_Bomb_Museum) in Nagasaki. (Sorry, but the actual website is in Japanese.) This was while I was serving aboard a US Navy fast attack submarine home ported in Pearl Harbor. I lived and worked in and around that history. Many of the buildings are, or were, at least, still standing, some still showing cosmetic evidence of the attack, then 55 years earlier. I have, from that, developed an intense interest in the geopolitical state of affairs, particularly notion of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, which included occupying the Korean Peninsula.
I say this not so much to present credentials. I am by no means an expert, as this is a hobby, not my profession, but I have devoted a great deal of study to, among other things, Asian culture.
[/tl;dr]
Much like the kind of brinksmanship and maneuvering that lead to the Japanese attack on the US military facilities on the Hawaiian island of Oahu, commonly lumped together as Pearl Harbor, TPTB in Asia, in general, do not fully understand what motivates us. This is probably, as has been suggested, more of the party line, and they think that, regardless of whether it cows us, which I would fully expect them to think it would, there is nothing that we can do. The best thing that we can do is not to turn up the ugly, but to keep the pressure on them as we have been doing, as I am sure Tony and his contacts are currently assessing.
It's not whether or not we lose, but whether they win. So far, they have not.
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so, the bob seger thing...my dad is at his house right now and i told him to bring it up but not ask him to do anything yet becuase i don't know what to ask him to do...so what do we tell him? I mean if he is interested.
Without suggesting any specific action, I would like to point out that video is the best proof to maintain legitimacy about the message Bob Seger could/would send on our behalf. Something that we can easily make viral on YouTube and also send it straight to NCsoft. But see what he might have in mind first as a modest gesture so as not to seem bothersome to him. Just keep my suggestion in mind. Pass this along to TonyV as well, I'm sure he would know very proper channels to send it through.
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NCSoft is saying THIS round of talks failed.
I say now we list the names of ALL large stock holders and expand all of our messages to include them.
They said they heard us, no sir they have heard a whisper in the forest. Now it is time for us to make some REAL NOISE! They are willing and even eager for us to go away. To partially quote a famous man - You expect us to just leave a City we spent 8 years defending?
No.
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As always, Tony, THANK YOU and Titan Network!!! While I posted a reply to the official forum I'll post it here again: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297822&page=7
Dear Hit Streak/NCSoft Team,
We the fans and loyal customers would LOVE to know which avenues were explored and why things failed. 1. Some transparency here would help many of us with understanding and reaching feelings of closure, rather than the feelings of betrayal by NCSoft and sorrow and anger. 2. As demonstrated, the CoH Community is really quite interested in seeing City of Heroes and Paragon Studies continue/get re-established and would be willing and eager to work pro-actively with NCSoft to develop a win-win scenario where we get to keep our beloved MMO in a manner either cost neutral or even profitable to NCSoft -- keeping in mind that the good will of the CoH Community may in fact be GOOD Public Relations policy for NCSoft.
CoH was my first MMO and I played from Issue 15 unto this present day. (I'll be logging in tonight and every night, until I no longer can.) Prior to the "sunset" notice, I've been very happy with NCSoft, and, like everyone, looking forward to Issue 24 and beyond. I urge NCSoft to consider ways it could hand off City of Heroes, if NCSoft no longer wishes to publish this MMO. (I appreciate that the profits to be made from CoH may pale compared to the profitability of other business opportunities for NCSoft.) Please do what you can to help us save our beloved MMO. Thank you!
[End of quoting myself, LOL]
Given that we have some very creative talent in the community here, including those with business, financial and entrepreneurial expertise, I'm hoping we can come up with something too good for NCSoft to ignore or refuse. I don't know how strong my Public Relations argument is, but NCSoft seems to care some still about PR with respect to our community. Can you/will you, Tony, network with the business/finance experts about how best we the Community can open direct negotiations with NCSoft for purchase of the IP? Thanks in advance to listening to my little ideas. :)
John
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I'm not buying the announcement either. It's too unequivocal. "Negotiations not successful, we're definitely shutting down, you can quit trying now" is the message they're trying to convey, but that's simply implausible. If some investor offered, say, $100 trillion USD for the IP or for NCSoft to keep the servers up themselves, they'd obviously take it (unless they're being driven by some psychotic hatred of CoX, which--appearances to the contrary--probably isn't the case). Thus it's merely a question of a) how much lower than $100 trillion they'd be willing to go, and b) whether someone can be found to offer that magic number. That means the announcement is simply a PR-style "Get off our backs, you haven't shown us enough money" message designed to make us go away since so far they haven't seen an offer big enough to interest them (and may believe that no such offer can credibly be made by a bunch of gamers at whom the announcement was aimed). That's an important point: This may be (probably is) an actual dismissal of our ability to tempt them seriously rather than an oblique attempt to haggle. But in either case, the answer is to turn their heads with a big enough offer.
The question then becomes if anyone is aware of whether efforts to make such an offer--and to gather the necessary funds for it--are still underway. TonyV, are you free to tell us the status of your effort to find investors, and whether/how it may have been affected by the apparent failure of Paragon negotiations and/or the NCSoft announcement?
I think the worst thing that this message can mean is that they do think that CoX is worth a great deal more to them dead than alive, which we really already knew, but which does bump up the asking price a whole lot, thus making fundraising efforts on our community's part a lot harder than it should be in a reasonable world. They may be right and they may be wrong, but they're free to name their price. Still, that's a better case scenario than if they really meant what they said in the announcement.
Stout hearts.
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Glad to hear your dad is out of the hospital!!!!!!!!!!
Does Bob Seger have a web page? Twitter?? Any celebrity endorsement that will reach a lot of people is good imo.
so, the bob seger thing...my dad is at his house right now and i told him to bring it up but not ask him to do anything yet becuase i don't know what to ask him to do...so what do we tell him? I mean if he is interested.
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so, the bob seger thing...my dad is at his house right now and i told him to bring it up but not ask him to do anything yet becuase i don't know what to ask him to do...so what do we tell him? I mean if he is interested.
If Seger helps out and the game gets saved, I'll start a character called the "Ramblin' Gamblin' Man" and level him to 50, then park him permanently in AP33 with an AFK message saying "Download more Bob Seger songs! Legally, I mean".
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I was just at the store for milk and bread and completely spaced grabbing a card. Sorry. Next time.
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Your font is sooo tiny and hard to read hehehe
I was just at the store for milk and bread and completely spaced grabbing a card. Sorry. Next time.
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This, from my husband Larry Dixon however:
Larry Dixon: *shrug* It's as "real" as anything else NCsoft says or does. That'll flip if they want it to. What it *is* is an admission that they've noticed enough to respond to it "on company letterhead." Its face value is meaningless.
The REAL takeaway from this is "Hey this is starting to hurt, stop it guys!" If the revival efforts meant nothing, NCsoft would not post what amounts to "Elvis has left the building." And that is all that is. They want the negative attention to stop. That is an official attempt at deflection. Or, in political terms, an "Un-Answer."
It appears to be a response but actually accomplishes nothing except silence those who weren't very into it. Like I say, what it says is irrelevant; the thing to take notice of is that it was put there at all. And that means time to step it up because the other fighter just staggered.
If the "Save CoH/We love Paragon" etc. efforts were ineffective, we'd never have seen such a statement. The hidden meaning of that note is that it has dawned on somebody that this is developing into "anti-NCsoft," not "Save-CoH," so they issued a mollifying statement with a lot of buttonpushing feel-warm cozy buttons about how special what they just murdered was to them.
Now they reap the mistrust they sowed, they can see the coverage increase, the caution against them and the players taking their money away in droves, and we can look them steely in the eyes and reply "Too bad. It's just business. Isn't it."
The "exhausted all options" is bizspeak for "We didn't get what we wanted, so we stopped bothering to find solutions." Businesspeople who truly WANT a result ALWAYS find a way, they never "exhaust all options." So right there is an admission from NCsoft that they're very bad businesspeople. Most certainly unimaginative and inflexible.
Shortest form: As a strategist, the hits are being felt by NCsoft, and they've barely begun.
Second message: This is the murderer issuing an official statement that they "really tried hard" not kill what they had a choice about murdering, and hoping that "Oh they loved it like I did, they're really sorry!" should be your takeaway from that and that should make EVERYTHING just fine, right?
I don't take "We loved it too!" as anything but an insult to our intelligence.
Nah, this is a "There, that'll shut'em up" attempt, as if talking to six-year-olds.
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You lead Tony, we'll follow.
Time to kick the tires and light the fires.
We are HEROES, this is what we do!
/em salute
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Find out how he's willing to help first. That's less imposing than asking for something specific.
I just don't know what dad should ask him to help with...i mean since asking NCSOFT to not shut down and in return he'd advertise or whatever is out of the question now.
Glad to hear your dad is out of the hospital!!!!!!!!!!
Does Bob Seger have a web page? Twitter?? Any celebrity endorsement that will reach a lot of people is good imo.
Yes he's out and in a lot of pain and seeking options for his cancer.
He just told me he was going to his (bob) house today and something about kid rock but he said he can't ask him becuase he doesn't know him and that he'd have to get to know him (kid rock) first before asking him to help.
I'll just call him right now and update this in about 5 mins...
Not answering, i hope he didn't over do it...i'll keep you posted
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Ask HIM what he'd be willing to do. It's always better if someone volunteers what he thinks he can bring to the table.
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Ask HIM what he'd be willing to do. It's always better if someone volunteers what he thinks he can bring to the table.
Yes, thats a better idea
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Have him listen to this.
http://www.fragglerockforever.com/CoX/WeAreHeroes.mp3
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As to the topic at hand.....
This is the same company that thought nothing of FORGING a letter from Richard Garriott in order to shut down Tabula Rasa.
Why would we believe anything that admitted forgers have to tell us?
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Exactly, VV. Exactly.
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As to the topic at hand.....
This is the same company that thought nothing of FORGING a letter from Richard Garriott in order to shut down Tabula Rasa.
Why would we believe anything that admitted forgers have to tell us?
Oh, well, of course they thought you'd forget that. Gee golly! It's like a murderer returning to commit homicide again every 3 years in the same county and being apprehended every time with the same surprised expression on his face.
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As to the topic at hand.....
This is the same company that thought nothing of FORGING a letter from Richard Garriott in order to shut down Tabula Rasa.
Why would we believe anything that admitted forgers have to tell us?
I'm not sure if this is the proper place or not but I explored the forum a little and it seems that the talks and meetings were going good. What happened? Any word on that yet?
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A thought....Maybe reopening that 'admitted forger' wound would help?
I just mentioned that - it could be another way of putting more pressure on them.
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Larry, who is a better strategist than I, believes that we should wait for someone ELSE to be the one to bring up the forgery and settlement. However if anyone is talking with professional journalists at this point, it wouldn't hurt to mention it along the course of the interview and let the pro go dig it all up for himself.
Larry: Curiously enough we have passive-aggression as a viable tactic: the "don't trust NCsoft" stuff will come out from others while we all do "Save CoH!", and pro journos are the ones to dig out the actual settlement etc.
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Thank you very much for the explanation, Ms. Lackey (and please thank your husband on behalf of all of us)!
I wish I had contacts and/or money. As it is, all I can do is work on Plan Z. So back to Plan Z I go.
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Everyone take heart in the fact that this is nothing more than the school yard bully getting his nose popped and reacting.
The attention they have garnered from this has been painful for them and they are trying to make it go away.
This is when we hit them square in the jaw again, and again, and again.....
We have nothing to loose, but they very much do!
We however have everything to gain if we stay strong and ramp it up.
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A schoolyard bully would react much more...aggressively.
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Put some pressure on Tony to read his messages and reply back to me. I'll need his help if we're going to move forward.
8)
The only thing that NCsoft reply did was encourage my contacts to want to rise up even more. NCsoft has answered my e-mail with an air of uncertainty, as well as many others who have sent in Official Letters from sources you wouldn't even begin to believe that have offered their assistance via publicists and personal signed hand written over night mail. Celebrities that think what is happening is not cool.
Celebrities that are more than willing to say hello to the community and video record it.
Tony, what say you?
Ready for the next step?
Waiting on a sixth string,
I read it, I promise! And I think this is a good idea. You just kind of hit me up right as my work day was starting, and then NCsoft's post hit, and now there are five pages of replies that I haven't finished reading yet and I'm hungry for dinner. Tell you what, when I get back, I'll finish reading all of the posts and respond to yours!
:)
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First post
I found the response dishearting for NCsoft before I left the office today. The negative waves have diminished by the Titan Community and CoH forum .. not giving up the fight. Hopefully, the twitchTV thingie tomorrow might help shed some additional information. i'll try to support the community as community as I can.
Celtic Fist - Victory server
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Update, he's going friday, he said he'll ask then.
Oh, updae on his cancer, he's seeing a different cancer hospital tomorrow and we're hoping for more options. I hope they have something good to tell him.
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Tell Bob, we want to use his song Like a Rock in a video to try and save our world.
I think that song would make a WONDERFUL hero song.
Stood there boldly
Sweatin' in the sun
Felt like a million
Felt like number one
The height of summer
I'd never felt that strong
Like a rock
I was eighteen
Didn't have a care
Working for peanuts
Not a dime to spare
But I was lean and
Solid everywhere
Like a rock
My hands were steady
My eyes were clear and bright
My walk had purpose
My steps were quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Like a rock
Like a rock, I was strong as I could be
Like a rock, nothin' ever got to me
Like a rock, I was something to see
Like a rock
And I stood arrow straight
Unencumbered by the weight
Of all these hustlers and their schemes
I stood proud, I stood tall
High above it all
I still believed in my dreams
Twenty years now
Where'd they go?
Twenty years
I don't know
Sit and I wonder sometimes
Where they've gone
And sometimes late at night
When I'm bathed in the firelight
The moon comes callin' a ghostly white
And I recall
I Recall
Like a rock. standin' arrow straight
Like a rock, chargin' from the gate
Like a rock, carryin' the weight
Like a rock
Lihe a rock, the sun upon my skin
Like a rock, hard against the wind
Like a rock, I see myself again
Like a rock
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Tell Bob, we want to use his song Like a Rock in a video to try and save our world.
I think that song would make a WONDERFUL hero song.
Stood there boldly
Sweatin' in the sun
Felt like a million
Felt like number one
The height of summer
I'd never felt that strong
Like a rock
I was eighteen
Didn't have a care
Working for peanuts
Not a dime to spare
But I was lean and
Solid everywhere
Like a rock
My hands were steady
My eyes were clear and bright
My walk had purpose
My steps were quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Like a rock
Like a rock, I was strong as I could be
Like a rock, nothin' ever got to me
Like a rock, I was something to see
Like a rock
And I stood arrow straight
Unencumbered by the weight
Of all these hustlers and their schemes
I stood proud, I stood tall
High above it all
I still believed in my dreams
Twenty years now
Where'd they go?
Twenty years
I don't know
Sit and I wonder sometimes
Where they've gone
And sometimes late at night
When I'm bathed in the firelight
The moon comes callin' a ghostly white
And I recall
I Recall
Like a rock. standin' arrow straight
Like a rock, chargin' from the gate
Like a rock, carryin' the weight
Like a rock
Lihe a rock, the sun upon my skin
Like a rock, hard against the wind
Like a rock, I see myself again
Like a rock
I'm almost positive i can gt the ok on that one. I'll let you know friday night.
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This thread is awesome. Thank You Thank you to Tony V., Victoria Victrix aka Mercedes Lackey, and of course Fansy The Famous Bard. I have been posting things on facebook trying to get people to read this thread cause it is a real shot in the arm of hope after the news today. My hope did not fail, but I saw it drop quickly on facebook, and I know if people read this thread it will bring back there hope stronger than it was before.
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Tell Bob, we want to use his song Like a Rock in a video to try and save our world.
I think that song would make a WONDERFUL hero song.
Stood there boldly
Sweatin' in the sun
Felt like a million
Felt like number one
The height of summer
I'd never felt that strong
Like a rock
I was eighteen
Didn't have a care
Working for peanuts
Not a dime to spare
But I was lean and
Solid everywhere
Like a rock
My hands were steady
My eyes were clear and bright
My walk had purpose
My steps were quick and light
And I held firmly
To what I felt was right
Like a rock
Like a rock, I was strong as I could be
Like a rock, nothin' ever got to me
Like a rock, I was something to see
Like a rock
And I stood arrow straight
Unencumbered by the weight
Of all these hustlers and their schemes
I stood proud, I stood tall
High above it all
I still believed in my dreams
Twenty years now
Where'd they go?
Twenty years
I don't know
Sit and I wonder sometimes
Where they've gone
And sometimes late at night
When I'm bathed in the firelight
The moon comes callin' a ghostly white
And I recall
I Recall
Like a rock. standin' arrow straight
Like a rock, chargin' from the gate
Like a rock, carryin' the weight
Like a rock
Lihe a rock, the sun upon my skin
Like a rock, hard against the wind
Like a rock, I see myself again
Like a rock
Is this that Chevy Truck commercial song?
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Yes and Bob let Chevy use it for free.
I am also from Michigan and Bob Seger once got booed at a concert and came to Michigan and got repeated standing ovations and so he has a deep love for this state. He has the soul of the working man in his music.
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I think the one thing we can all take away from NCSoft's statement is that this is their official spokesman.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net%2F80450F%2F983thesnake.com%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F01%2FPants-On-Fire-Mike-Licht-NotionsCapitalDOTcom-Flickr.jpg)
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Anyone's guess if this is true, but I just read in-game that Trion offered NC 80mil for CoH.
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Why I do declare it appears as if his pants were on fire.
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I think the one thing we can all take away from NCSoft's statement is that this is their official spokesman.
A men's restroom sign with firecrotch?
Seems legit.
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For now, I'm treating this as another expression of:
*NCSoft* We have this signed letter of resignation from Richard Garriott
*Garriott* Uh...WHAT?
Let's see what Paragon has to say.
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I've mainly been silent throughout this, because louder and more capable voices than mine were getting things done, and because as an academic I tend toward analysis prior to (and sometimes instead of) action.
But this press release pushed just about every button I have. "Shut up and go away" is something I expect, but the equivalent of, "Shut up and go away, and we don't think you're smart enough to get sub-text" about makes my blood boil.
I'm done taking out my frustration on official forum unicorns, and ready to start directing my energy right at SaveCOH.
Nice going, NCSoft. Instead of chasing people off the movement, you've convinced me to get more active in it.
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I think the one thing we can all take away from NCSoft's statement is that this is their official spokesman.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net%2F80450F%2F983thesnake.com%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F01%2FPants-On-Fire-Mike-Licht-NotionsCapitalDOTcom-Flickr.jpg)
No mas pantalones. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqOcvSKRQvs)
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Anyone's guess if this is true, but I just read in-game that Trion offered NC 80mil for CoH.
I've heard this rumor, too, but I haven't seen any evidence to support it.
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I've mainly been silent throughout this, because louder and more capable voices than mine were getting things done, and because as an academic I tend toward analysis prior to (and sometimes instead of) action.
But this press release pushed just about every button I have. "Shut up and go away" is something I expect, but the equivalent of, "Shut up and go away, and we don't think you're smart enough to get sub-text" about makes my blood boil.
I'm done taking out my frustration on official forum unicorns, and ready to start directing my energy right at SaveCOH.
Nice going, NCSoft. Instead of chasing people off the movement, you've convinced me to get more active in it.
Welcome. See DrakeGrimm for popcorn. ;D
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I know Nexon is a big investor in NCSoft, who are some of the others?
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Anyone's guess if this is true, but I just read in-game that Trion offered NC 80mil for CoH.
I'd file that under "wild and crazy rumors"
Here's another shot of the NCSoft spokesman.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=pmwr74.files.wordpress.com%2F2012%2F09%2Fliar-liar-pants-on-fire.jpg)
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I've heard this rumor, too, but I haven't seen any evidence to support it.
While the actual offer could be possible, the sum being quoted is stupidly high for an older MMO with a medium sized player base - it'd take them decades to make it back, going by the profit margins COH has.
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Actually, with some serious advertising, plus the existing reputation as a benchmark in the industry, they may have the kind of machine behind them to recoup a deep investment. That said, the number is ridiculous by an order of magnitude.
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While the actual offer could be possible, the sum being quoted is stupidly high for an older MMO with a medium sized player base - it'd take them decades to make it back, going by the profit margins COH has.
That profit margin is based off of a game with almost no advertising budget. CoH's primary form of advertisement was us. If they gave it an actual advertising and development budget, they'd push the profits WAY up.
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Actually, with some serious advertising, plus the existing reputation as a benchmark in the industry, they may have the kind of machine behind them to recoup a deep investment. That said, the number is ridiculous by an order of magnitude.
This is wildly speculative, but operating on the assumption that NCSoft lost 6 mill in the last quarter (mostly on money invested in GW2 that has not been recouped in subscriptions) I'd be shocked if they turned down an offer of 8 mill. But then, I operate on logic.
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Still... 80 million? Maybe the rumor was construed or it was a typo? Like maybe it was 8 million? Or 18 Million?
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Since the orginal announcement I have been watching the posts here on Titan. I didn't register until a few days ago and hadn't really found something to add my two cents to until now. I've done what I felt I could to help the SaveCoH movement thus far... I joined the rally, signed the petitions, spread the word... trying to keep the optimism up (especially on Exhalted) when everyone was giving up hope in the early days.... and many other things. When I read todays announcement I was very disenhearted... but I feel the need now to say thank you to everyone here commenting and to the Titan folks who keep this site going for us. After reading through this thread I have lost the depression that the announcement caused... put away the wine and gotten mad all over again. I am now, more than ever, dedicated to doing ANYTHING that I can to help save our city. We are heroes, this is what we do... we've been saving Paragon for years now, why would we even consider stopping the fight now that the threats are more real than ever. I for one will stand here fighting until the very end.
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I absolutely was speculating, except that the figure of $8M is reasonably consistent in what's been guesstimated as the approximate value of the game, though admittedly not at present. I was pointing more to the exaggeration than the validity of whether there was an offer or not.
That said, the fact that there is a consistency to the rumors/reporting that this has gotten the attention of the wider industry at some level is heartening. If someone were to snatch up the remaining available Paragon staff, set up a new studio or set them up as a team, and announce a new super-powered MMO, that would be a win for us and a loss for the Game Killers. :D
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This is wildly speculative, but operating on the assumption that NCSoft lost 6 mill in the last quarter (mostly on money invested in GW2 that has not been recouped in subscriptions) I'd be shocked if they turned down an offer of 8 mill. But then, I operate on logic.
Corporations, alas, do not.
G
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Corporations, alas, do not.
G
Corporations do, NCsoft clearly does not >.>
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I'm seeing the rumor talked about on the official forums too... it's a pleasant thought but not to be believed.
Noticing too all of the jackwagons on the official forums too that essentially are lying down to let NCsoft stomp on their faces while taking trash on us here. Sheep.
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Anyone's guess if this is true, but I just read in-game that Trion offered NC 80mil for CoH.
80 million what? Influence?
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80 million what? Influence?
Are they accepting that? People are still buying on the markets, so I may have that just sitting, waiting to be collected. :)
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Hey if its INF we're talking about I can crank out 1 BIL easily enough.
If only I thought that would work...
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As to the topic at hand.....
This is the same company that thought nothing of FORGING a letter from Richard Garriott in order to shut down Tabula Rasa.
Why would we believe anything that admitted forgers have to tell us?
Funny enough, that's what I've been reminded demoralized people today in-game and on Facebook.
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"... and we want to ensure its reputation and the memories we share for the game end on a high note."
Well, I can tell you right now = there's no way in hell (or heaven for that matter) that we're some how gonna let them get away with this and have things = "End on a high note" >:(
CoH's Reputation isn't at question here, No matter how they are trying to infer and/or insinuate that any further efforts on our part will somehow(?) tarnish the games reputation, the game has had 8+ years to create a solid a reputation - anything that occurs now could hardly dent that.
BUT, NCsoft's Reputation (given their known track record with killing games & holding onto the IP's) = is just shy of falling in the sewer at this point!
And, I happen to know a couple "Villains" that have been very patiently waiting for word of these dealings - what's next and they could very well make this whole mess a HUGE splash of sewage on NCsoft's brand - aka - much more messy for them to deal with long-term.
"Clean-up PR" is very, very costly, that is of course IF you can even find a way to "buy it" at all!
They seem to want to go the stubborn route, but someone "in the room" *now knows* just how much we can (could) mess with their PR = this is somebody's attempt to save face and minimize collateral damage = they REALLY oughta know better...
And, If they don't re-think this ASAP - (Asian Cultural "Face-saving" aside) = they soon will. ;)
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I can't say anything better than what more eloquent people have already written here. But I will say, from my perspective, the way I feel now shows me how much I have changed since I became a citizen of this community. Instead of feeling angry, I feel focused. Instead of feeling resigned, I feel defiant. Instead of feeling sad, I feel lucky to be surrounded by this group of people.
One way or another we will win this fight and when we stand on the other side of this we will only be stronger.
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The rumor is interesting.
Chances are they consider any cash obtained through a buyout to not be worth the loss of reputation by admitting a mistake.
It may be a smart move to signal boost the fact it was profitable and encourage speculation in the audience about WHY they did such a bizarre action.
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*Goes to Ouroboros*
Um, Mrs. Tilman, you can leave Ouroboros despite being dead, can't you? We need your help in Normal Earth...
Instead of feeling resigned, I feel defiant.
There's even a Defiant server. My main character is there. :)
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I suggest we wait, still, at least until the word from the devs tomorrow night.
Possibly 'til the end of the week.
But yes, if it IS that they feel there is Face to be lost in selling because it admits a weakness, then we need to start causing them to lose Face for not doing so. We need, as well, to find a way to make them able to gain Face if they do sell.
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Yes and Bob let Chevy use it for free.
I am also from Michigan and Bob Seger once got booed at a concert and came to Michigan and got repeated standing ovations and so he has a deep love for this state. He has the soul of the working man in his music.
That son of Dearborn is the heart and soul of Michigan personified.
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Agreed. I feel the dev's will have some more information for us tomorrow.
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Is it not as simple as "If you sell it, we'll lay off?" 'Cause if they do, I will. I don't care if they're concerned about showing weakness, they already are without having to admit it. It's a real straightforward solution. Sell the game, we'll call off the hounds and end this amicably. Don't sell the game, get ready for a PR sh*tstorm.
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Another option we have is to visit our local farms, order bulk quantities of horse/cow/bull shit and then have it shipped to both of NCSoft's US HQ's.
They give us bullshit, we'll give it right back.
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Another option we have is to visit our local farms, order bulk quantities of horse/cow/bull shit and then have it shipped to both of NCSoft's US HQ's.
They give us bullshit, we'll give it right back.
LOL
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Another option we have is to visit our local farms, order bulk quantities of horse/cow/bull shit and then have it shipped to both of NCSoft's US HQ's.
They give us bullshit, we'll give it right back.
Don't tempt me.
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Or just scent the letters lol (j/k)
http://generalissueusa.com/bullshit-p-225.html
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http://pranksenders.com/
Disclaimer: NO! I'm not suggesting anyone do this. I've just been laughing at these guys for a looooong time.
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Another option we have is to visit our local farms, order bulk quantities of horse/cow/bull shit and then have it shipped to both of NCSoft's US HQ's.
They give us bullshit, we'll give it right back.
Not that I think anyone intelligent would, but don't actually do this. It comes with fines and jail time. Not really worth it to make a point.
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If you guys seriously want a joking gift to send them, send them packets of tea or coffee. "To help you overcome your exhaustion and get back to the negotiating table."
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Not that I think anyone intelligent would, but don't actually do this. It comes with fines and jail time. Not really worth it to make a point.
<looks at how little wine is left in the bottle>
Oh, OK...
<shuffles feet awkwardly>
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Sending raw farm excrement is, indeed, a biohazard and illegal.
Sending this however--
http://milorganite.com/ (http://milorganite.com/)
--is perfectly legal. And very apt, considering they are trying to sell us on corporate processed, high-grade BS.
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To be honest, I'm glad they finally came out with this statement. Absolutely none of us is remotely surprised they said what they did. This just means we can stop waiting for the other shoe to drop and get down to business doing what we do best. Be heroes and conquerors. We can now focus on what our next moves are. Then enemy has revealed their true colors at last boys and girls. Suit up!
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I dont expect the Twitch TV announcement to tell us much of anything in all honesty..
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Yeah I wouldn't expect much comment from TwitchTV regarding the announcement. Hopefully people won't keep asking over and over as I am sure that will frustrate Hit Streak et al.
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You know they will. If I watch I'm sorely tempted to not even allow FlashBlock to load the chat pane.
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Quick question, cause I'm not aware of the full legalities of this whole thing.....is it perfectly legal for a private party to take a game that's been cancelled like NCSoft is planning and open it up to the public to play, so long as no one makes a profit from it? Or are there possible legal ramifications for using the game with all the NCSoft-owned characters and stories after they shut it down?
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Quick question, cause I'm not aware of the full legalities of this whole thing.....is it perfectly legal for a private party to take a game that's been cancelled like NCSoft is planning and open it up to the public to play, so long as no one makes a profit from it? Or are there possible legal ramifications for using the game with all the NCSoft-owned characters and stories after they shut it down?
You enter into a not-nice-place legally. While fair-use laws do exist, they have been weakened over the years.
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...I was ok when I read this. But my face locked into a stony frown and stayed there. I talked about it with some teammates, on Virtue, looking pret-ty empty tonight. We ran a MoKahn run (got uber-decked the 1st part of mish in City Hall; played 10% more conservatively and won 2nd try.). During that time...I began to feel more and more disturbed, to the point where I was vibrating...and then, the fugitive tears started leaking. I told a few people, thinking they'd admit the same...but they were pretty quiet and just offered hugs. I got off the game. And held out for another 30 seconds, and then it was like someone ripped streams of acid from my eyes, and a terrible screech from my soul. I wept for a good 5-10 minutes, very intensely, and bemoaned the fact of their post...ending with "How could you...how could you...", shaking and sobbing. And then, I forced myself to put on my glasses, and read the rest of this thread.
How *strong* you all are. I...I sincerely hope you're all right. I've been a very firm, unbreakable boulder in my belief that this game will pass onto stewards that will cherish it far more than the current owners do. I've been very active on Save COH wall on FB (before this week I would have said "extremely active", but real life and exhaustion tends to intrude on all of us sooner or later). I've made friends there, shared laughs, amazing pictures, even my local museum in Denver is putting on (in a VERY timely manner I might add), a "Superheroes Assemble" night [http://bit.ly/T0sjYj for those who wanna take a peek]. I feel like I was set on fire tonight, and I raged and wept and suffered horribly...for about 20-30 mins total. I was slowly, inexorably crumbled.
And that's what you wanted...wasn't it? (shakes head faintly) I am such a fool.
Now all that is left is the smoldering, steaming core. I am reconstituting my will. I am clenching my teeth a little more. And...I...am...*angry*...that NCSoft would either a) REALLY mean all this, and bury us to save face/keep their pride, or b) try and snow all of us in "business speak defeatist talk" [Run along back to your homes now, we mean it, it really is martial law.]
I am *PISSED OFF*. >:( And I can dream about sending my SuperClone out to NCSoft corporate HQ to tear out the key foundation stones one by one in their building, and then hear them plead to spare their building and their lives, and put on a stony vigilante face and say "...Nope. I, uh, "exhausted all my options" with you guys. *yanks out final keystone and listens to the aftermath*"...but that isn't going to happen. I do feel a few things, though.
I feel very fortunate to be blessed, in my weakened, vulnerable moment tonight, by the presence of people who are still having the bullets bounce off them. Who feel immovable about their positivity and their "we see right through you, NCSoft" X-ray eyes. Who have, a personal blessing, kept this thread mostly free of their own possible (probable?) tears, pain, suffering, and rage at the announcement; after all the work and sweat and toil and love and kindness and joy and suffused soul collective we have poured into this. I finally buckled after a few weeks (about 2) of staying tear-free. You all did not. (Perhaps you are all killer cyborgs from the future -- that might make for an excellent action film 8) ) I want to thank you all, for all these qualities, and more...especially in this thread to date. Thank *you*.
...All that being said...I said I was going to stay until the final power switch was flipped, the server connection lost, Marauder throws me pinwheeling out the front of the saloon door (in which case, he better run when I get my footing back ;) ). And I still am. Now...reading all this...I don't know whether it's all foolhardy blustering to soften what just happened and deflect us from viewing it all square on, or whether things *really are* going on behind the scenes (I pray they are.) -- but I am more immovable and intractible than before about refusing to budge.
You might slap me across the face with your words, NCSoft.
You might punch me with an adamantium fist in the ribcage.
You might uppercut me until I fall back onto the cement with a concussion and *wish* I was dead from daring to stand against you.
But I am not dead.
I am still human. And I still grieve from your words, and suffer -- and weep. I am still...at least partially human. (faint smile)
But you have packed my stubbornness into neutron star density now. Who knows where it will go from here? I guess that's up to you.
I. Am Not. Budging.
(sudden thought, time to invoke the Captain America quote and wall print that has been circulating around the Save COH wall on FB as of late.)
*YOU* Move.
~~ @Sunlover (also Stephen K on "Save COH" wall on FB)
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*logs in his fire/invul Brute*
I have not played redside as much as I have lately.....
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Sunlover, please tell me your favorite powerset is Willpower ;)
We all break at one point or another. I couldn't even play CoH in the days after the announcement. But we can get right back into the action with a simple trip to the hospital or a wakie/break free combo. We will have an impact.
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Sunlover, please tell me your favorite powerset is Willpower ;)
I wish I could say it's Invulnerability. I am frankly marveling at you Titans striding the Earth with nary a scratch. How is that *possible*? :o That message hit me...and like napalm or plasma, sizzled and boiled and burned all over me (without me knowing it), until my shields finally buckled and it made its way in. I've got less Willpower than I did a decade or 15 years ago...but I bolster that with Resolve. Passion burns fiercely, but it's very hard to maintain for a lengthy period. Resolve, though...that's like Granite Armor, if you get it right. [Minus the -90% speed drop. ;) ]
We all break at one point or another. I couldn't even play CoH in the days after the announcement. But we can get right back into the action with a simple trip to the hospital or a wakie/break free combo. We will have an impact.
...I'd dare say we HAVE made one. (Although...I still like to dream....you say Impact, I think island-sized [Hurl]...right into the upper 10 floors of...well, you see where I'm going, I'm sure. :roll: )
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A little inspiration song by Alan Parsons.
"It's no good believing in somebody else
If you can't believe in yourself
You give them the reason to take all the power and wealth
It's no good you trying to sit on the fence
And hope that the trouble will pass
'Cause sitting on fenses can make you a pain in the ass
If there's something you find to believe in
Then the message must get through
So don't just sit in silence
When you know what to do
Turn it up. Turn it up, make it louder
Turn it up. Turn it up, make it louder
There's no conversation if nobody speaks
And nothing gets done in the end
There's no confrontation when fantasy makes you its friend
So much injustice, too many lies
We don't have to look very far
But nothing will change if we leave things the way that they are
If there's something you find to believe in
Then the message must get through
So don't just sit in silence
When you know what to do
Turn it up. Turn it up, make it louder
Turn it up. Turn it up, make it louder"
In the words of the late, great Yogi Berra: "It ain't over 'til it's over!"
We still got two more months.
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@Sunlover.....
You know that stuff I posted from Larry?
That was what HE wrote to ME from his studio right after I crumbled at the announcement and said, "That's it, it's over." Never, ever think this doesn't affect us all, but we are a league, and I bet every one of us has dropped down in a heap of misery at some point. But there are still others who have had their bad moment and gotten up already, and are standing over us, so we can pop Return to Battle or Rise of the Phoenix.
I'm lucky, I have my own little team right here. I might be the public face here, but I'm just the squishy fender. He's the WP tank keeping me up.
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I wish I could say it's Invulnerability. I am frankly marveling at you Titans striding the Earth with nary a scratch. How is that *possible*? :o That message hit me...and like napalm or plasma, sizzled and boiled and burned all over me (without me knowing it), until my shields finally buckled and it made its way in. I've got less Willpower than I did a decade or 15 years ago...but I bolster that with Resolve. Passion burns fiercely, but it's very hard to maintain for a lengthy period. Resolve, though...that's like Granite Armor, if you get it right. [Minus the -90% speed drop. ;) ]
We all felt that whallop, each and every one of us. We all collapsed. But we are heroes, we do not give up. We shook it off, and no matter how much it hurt, we stood right back up. That is the difference, a hero is not someone invulnerable or willful, or someone made of iron and capable of withstanding anything. A rock can do that, and noone calls them a hero. No, a hero is the guy who, no matter how many times they are beaten down, shaken up, or thrown around, keeps standing up again, refusing to surrender.
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(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.fragglerockforever.com%2FCoX%2Fap33Resolve.jpg)
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For 30 seconds, I crumbled. Then my son, who has not given into one single negative thought that we would lose, walked into the room. His confidence is what is keeping me in this fight. (Along with the flyers I handed out tonight at a political rally :D. You want to be my Senator, here take this and I refused to move until it was read!)
For a moment I forgot who we were dealing with and the shady practices they employ. For a moment I let them win. For a moment.
But then they don't know who they are dealing with. But they are learning.
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@Sunlover.....
You know that stuff I posted from Larry?
That was what HE wrote to ME from his studio right after I crumbled at the announcement and said, "That's it, it's over." Never, ever think this doesn't affect us all, but we are a league, and I bet every one of us has dropped down in a heap of misery at some point. But there are still others who have had their bad moment and gotten up already, and are standing over us, so we can pop Return to Battle or Rise of the Phoenix.
(pssssssssst....I *love* those powers. ;D )
I'm lucky, I have my own little team right here. I might be the public face here, but I'm just the squishy fender. He's the WP tank keeping me up.
Victoria, I never thought I would get to say this -- I have seen you here and there, I am *fairly* certain, in game over the last year. I may have even teamed with you once or twice. But I do remember this: when the "33 instances" rally was held, I was in Atlas Park 8. And I saw you. And I saw your text pop up, in local and word balloons. And I thought, "Wow. This person's a mover and a shaker." And then a few hours later, someone told me who you were. I was flabbergasted I'd been standing next to you, for over an hour, and hadn't a clue as to whom you were. I didn't think I was going to send a message in-game...and now? I don't have to.
(applauds your support, and /fancybows till my knees buckle...some /praise, too ;) ) I just wanted to let you know I was honored to be standing next to you on that day, VV. Just like I am honored to be posting next to you here. *Thank YOU*, so much, for being a catalyst for so many of us and for attracting attention and support to our home. I guess it's your home too, isn't it? ;D
[I will admit, every time I see a message from NCSoft...it hurts a little more. I think I'm getting pretty sore from eating too many punches. I *SHOULD* be getting angrier and just shrug it off...but I think emu265 had it right...I'm Willpower: Invulnerability's weaker cousin. *faint smile* I haven't made it onto COHTitan in weeks; all my spare energy towards this game, if not spent 1-3 hrs a night on Virtue, has been on the Save COH wall on FB; I just haven't had the time to keep up with COHTitan too. Well, keep up and not get fired. :P I'm glad I made it on tonight. And I wasn't going to post my thoughts and feelings...but everyone's "was that a mosquito sting? Er...still marching on" tone brought it out in me. Thanks...to you, and to everyone.]
I sure can ramble when it's WAY past when I wanted to be asleep tonight. Gnight, all. (/e praetoriansalute, because it's not a temporary salute...it is a lasting one, a lot like the Pledge of Allegiance...and I guess that's how I feel towards you all.
Especially TonyV...housemate of Taxibot Belle, my SG leader on the only non-Virtue toon I play...and my friend.)
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(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F523274_531602600190464_1049297634_n.jpg)
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I really haven't posted to this forum because I've just always felt sort of 'there' in the crowd and never felt I had anything important to say.
I felt the need to speak up, though. I am in the same boat as @Sunlover. When I heard this, yeah, I crumbled and pretty much felt like we'd lost, too. It pretty much broke me into tears. I am not made of stone and awesome will and I admire the strength the rest of you have, too.
It isn't easy when people are harsh at us for losing hope. That doesn't help. I got a bit of that over on Tumblr to 'suck it up, don't be sad, DO SOMETHING instead of moping (Which I have) etc... There's still hope'. Thing is? I'm a pretty weak little human and I fall.
However, thanks to Victoria's post and others, I've managed to pick myself back up and press on. I'm not giving up on playing, I'm not going to give up without a fight but I do stumble.
In the end, I guess it boils down to the fact, we have to support the ones who do fall. Sort of like Batman. "Why do we Fall? So we can get back up again." Thanks to the rest of you guys, it's helped me get back up and keep going.
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after first reading the initial post about it, i too thought it was disapointing, but i knew there had to be some sort of word play going on so i havent taken it really seriously, and it seems that everyone here feels basically the same way
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I really haven't posted to this forum because I've just always felt sort of 'there' in the crowd and never felt I had anything important to say.
I felt the need to speak up, though. I am in the same boat as @Sunlover. When I heard this, yeah, I crumbled and pretty much felt like we'd lost, too. It pretty much broke me into tears. I am not made of stone and awesome will and I admire the strength the rest of you have, too.
It isn't easy when people are harsh at us for losing hope. That doesn't help. I got a bit of that over on Tumblr to suck it up, don't be sad, etc... There's still hope. Thing is? I'm a pretty weak little human and I fall.
However, thanks to Victoria's post and others, I've managed to pick myself back up and press on. I'm not giving up on playing, I'm not going to give up without a fight but I do stumble.
In the end, I guess it boils down to the fact, we have to support the ones who do fall. Sort of like Batman. "Why do we Fall? So we can get back up again." Thanks to the rest of you guys, it's helped me get back up and keep going.
That's what a community does, right? We protect each other. So please don't be ashamed of crumbling. Too many times have I needed Tony or VV's words to keep my resolve from crumbling entirely. Sometimes logic and clear thinking do the trick, other times its seeing the resolve of others. Either way, no one here is going to tell you to quit if you're having an emotional reaction. We -all- experienced that on Black Friday, and that's why we're here.
Shortly after I stopped crying my eyes out after the first announcement, I stumbled across this board. I think I followed the link on the announcement on Paragon Wiki. But after coming here, I felt so refreshed and energized... it was probably the most uplifted I've ever felt. I can't explain why, but this effort alone has a charge capable of getting people moving. It just... gets the party started, you know? So check back often, post your thoughts (no matter how repetitive or trivial they may be), because there will be a time when someone else needs your strength.
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If it hadn't been for Tony V and the original Titan posters, I would currently be a puddle of tears, misery and (probably) Pomegranate Schapps on the floor.
Tony made us a league, gave us not Plan A, but B, C....and Z.
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That's what a community does, right? We protect each other. So please don't be ashamed of crumbling. Too many times have I needed Tony or VV's words to keep my resolve from crumbling entirely. Sometimes logic and clear thinking do the trick, other times its seeing the resolve of others. Either way, no one here is going to tell you to quit if you're having an emotional reaction. We -all- experienced that on Black Friday, and that's why we're here.
Shortly after I stopped crying my eyes out after the first announcement, I stumbled across this board. I think I followed the link on the announcement on Paragon Wiki. But after coming here, I felt so refreshed and energized... it was probably the most uplifted I've ever felt. I can't explain why, but this effort alone has a charge capable of getting people moving. It just... gets the party started, you know? So check back often, post your thoughts (no matter how repetitive or trivial they may be), because there will be a time when someone else needs your strength.
It is inspiring. I have a friend who doesn't even play the game and she's expressed how inspiring the efforts are, even to her.
I find it amusing, my characters that I've RPed are all intensely iron wills or filled with hope. One of my two mains pretty much epitomized the entire point of the Mot story arc in DA because of how much he personifies hope and yet he stumbled. His friends helped keep him on his feet to survive and finish that arc. It inspired me.
RP imitates life in some ways. Now this community and over at FB and elsewhere is doing the same. I do take a lot of inspiration in the stories I've seen in game on top of the players that run in it! This is a wonderful community.
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If it hadn't been for Tony V and the original Titan posters, I would currently be a puddle of tears, misery and (probably) Pomegranate Schapps on the floor.
Tony made us a league, gave us not Plan A, but B, C....and Z.
This is the sort of stuff that helps a lot to know we're all not alone in this!
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If it hadn't been for Tony V and the original Titan posters, I would currently be a puddle of tears, misery and (probably) Pomegranate Schapps on the floor.
Tony made us a league, gave us not Plan A, but B, C....and Z.
/me claps a hand on VV's shoulder and grins.
What are heroes--and friends--for?
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I too cried when I saw the announcement today thinking it was over. Then I read all the posts here and realized it's not over it's just beginning.
Thanks everyone for giving me hope when I needed it most.
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If it hadn't been for Tony V and the original Titan posters, I would currently be a puddle of tears, misery and (probably) Pomegranate Schapps on the floor.
Tony made us a league, gave us not Plan A, but B, C....and Z.
Z for Zoidberg?
My only thoughts regarding this announcement is this:
THEY BLINKED
Summon the Weeping Angels!
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Z for Zoidberg?
My only thoughts regarding this announcement is this:
THEY BLINKED
Summon the Weeping Angels!
...oh hells, not them again...
...then again, they are preferable to NCSoft. Carry on.
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Z for Zoidberg?
My only thoughts regarding this announcement is this:
THEY BLINKED
Summon the Weeping Angels!
if I had the money....
http://www.thisplanetearth.co.uk/main/page66.html
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Z for Zoidberg?
Z for VICTORY!
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If it hadn't been for Tony V and the original Titan posters, I would currently be a puddle of tears, misery and (probably) Pomegranate Schapps on the floor.
Tony made us a league, gave us not Plan A, but B, C....and Z.
Nothing saying you can't have the Pomegranate Schnapps anyways! ;)
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Nothing saying you can't have the Pomegranate Schnapps anyways! ;)
..only if she shares with the rest of us. Did you bring enough for the rest of the class, VV? Hmmmmm? :P
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...oh hells, not them again...
...then again, they are preferable to NCSoft. Carry on.
Wait, can we deliver a horde of those to NCHQ?
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Perhaps NC should rephrase then. Negotiations didn't fail. NC failed to open negotiations.
Or...the wrong Negotiators were used?
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=starwarstheoldrepublic.info%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2Fstar_wars_episode_1.jpg)
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First of all I'd like to say. I concur with others. Regarding the NcSoft Status Update. A attempt to try and pacify, deflect and give up hope. A political statement, sounds polite but full of holes. So we feel dispirited, weaken our community and stop (a nice way of saying it) making them accountable. Anyway, I for one will keep striving to achieve our goals.
Thank you to Tony V, from many of us. You are a hero, leading, inspiring, a voice of reason and like a counselor.
Also a great thanks to everyone else who needs a special mention as well. But there are so many. (A big pat on the pack)
This is my first posting here, lol (day 1 today) How did it take me so long to join up? (Slaps myself on the back of the head.)
Like so many of you. I can't stand by and be meek in the face of this murder of what we cherish. Emotions of anger, frustration, empathy. etc. We all have strengths. Some may not realise theirs yet, some are using them furiously. I will do what I can. Knowing that our community will be there to help me. ;D
Cheers!
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Or...the wrong Negotiators were used?
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=starwarstheoldrepublic.info%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2Fstar_wars_episode_1.jpg)
At some point in the past 24 hours, this crossed my mind.
"It appears negotiations have failed."
"Negotiations never took place."
edit: I don't frigging believe it. The Droid Federation Army song from Episode 1 came on the Cape stream within 10 minutes of me posting this.
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[Apologies if there are multiple postings of this. This is the 2nd Reply I've posted but neither appears here, and having felt strongly enough to write, I want to see it, LOL]
NCSoft,
We wanted to let you know that your message has been heard and your concerns have been taken into serious considertion. We appreciate your response and acknowledgement of our emails, notes and packages we've sent in support of the game. Closing Paragon Studios and shutting down City of Heroes should not have been easy. Bad decisions never should be, and this was a monumentally bad decision. Bad for your creative teams, who now operate under the uncertainty of an overseer that doesn't seem rational or consistent. Bad for your shareholders, who have been deprived a positive revenue source, both current and future. Bad for your players, who have entrusted you with the custodianship of the social network. Bad for your reputation, which continues to be tarnished by your demonstrated lack of the consistent and stable behavior a successful service provider must offer. Bad for the individual players who have brought our own creations to life within this online world. You have been given options that would dissolve your relationship with City of Heroes and Paragon Studios in a way that preserves that community, reassembles as much of the development team as possible, leaves our creative contributions intact, and possibly even provides compensation for your shareholders. You have continued to make bad decisions by rejecting those options.
You say your options are exhausted.
We have not exhausted all our options. We will provide opportunities to save yourselves from your own folly. We will celebrate the work of the development studio you so abruptly dissolved. We will demonstrate the value and strength of the community you are working to destroy. Should NCSoft come around and find an amicable resolution, we will recognize the merits of your actions. Should you not, we will warn everyone we know everywhere we go of the hazards of placing any trust in NCSoft, protecting others as best we can.
We are heroes. This is what we do.
(at least, this is what I was going to post.... not sure if I should use TonyV's signature line.)
I very much like what you said in your post, ChaseArcanum. While NCSoft may be all business, so are we!! And our motivation is not maximizing our portfolios or profits but the love all enthusiasts have for their chosen hobby. (Note, one definition of "hobby" is "obsession".) I imagine NCSoft did NOT anticipate this reaction to their decision to "sunset" City of Heroes, and callously laying off the Paragon Studios development team late Friday afternoon of Labor Day Weekend (U.S.) with no warning probably made sense to bean-counters (accountants) with no vision or thought to the harm NCSoft is doing to its reputation as a MMO publisher, nor what impact this decision and how they handle the on-going situation may make to their future financial prospects in this industry.
As others have pointed out, NCSoft upper managment did NOT work with Paragon Studios; there was no hint that anything was amiss, or that NCSoft needed more profit from CoH (if in fact that's the issue). Nor were steps taken or even explored that I know of to work with the CoH Community to make CoH a product still considered viable by NCSoft. As we all know, new Powersets and other market items were released just 10 days prior to the shutdown notice. Maybe I'm naive, but this seems a very strange way to run a business. I've worked for and gotten laid off from companies that went out of business, but always we employees knew/were told by management that things weren't looking good, and everyone worked harder to save our jobs and the business. Steps could have been taken. Certainly the dev team should have been in the loop that their jobs were on the line. NCSoft and the Studio could/should have explored via Community Relations ways to reach NCSoft's goals. But no one with enough clout at NCSoft did this. I hope NCSoft gets a clue, quickly, that stonewalling us with silence is counter-productive since it leads only to speculation (some quite unflattering) in how this business decision was reached. They also should clue in that their recent actions are opposite to and fly in the face of their stated Core Values: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/aboutus/visiongoals.aspx Rather than promoting Happiness (or even mere Enjoyment) what NCSoft did and HOW they did this has provoked Grief reactions ranging from sorrow to anger, and turned the publisher into the biggest Arch-Villain ever to menace Paragon City. Joy-killers! Sorrow-bringers! are epithets NCSoft is earning by its actions. Yet, they still have a chance to turn this around and salvage this debacle, if only they have the wisdom to do so, and demonstrate with integrity the values they profess.
Pessimistically, I expect NCSoft to revert to more silent stonewalling, especially now when today's PR tactic has backfired and encourages us to continue our efforts to save City of Heroes. Stonewalling would be a mistake typical of Top-down management. Despite the fact that we fans are remain upset, NCSoft still has a Golden Opportunity to reach out to us, to work with us, to craft a Win-Win scenario so that we CoH enthusiasts can continue what we love in a way that helps NCSoft reach corporate objectives.
I can imagine articles published months from now about this our "darkest hour", about the creative and constructive Community response (in addition to our fan outrage and unhappiness), and how NCSoft rose to the challenge courageously and worked WITH the Community of fans (and previously loyal customers!) If NCSoft has the vision and foresight to do this, I can imagine them coming out better than ever, re-establishing trust, and adding a layer of patina rather than deeper tarnish to their corporation.
Meanwhile, the pessimist in me believes they'll "raise the drawbridge" and retreat further into their corporate castle of isolation. That said, What are the next steps Tony and Mr W for figuratively storming the castle walls? I was rather impressed with the CNN iReporting and Cresting Twitter Trends, as well as other suggestions on these forums--but then, I may be easily impressed. ;-)
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Frankly, this bit of "news" just seems to be NCSoft's latest efforts to get us to give up. Time to turn up the heat, I say.
Never give up, never give in.
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Frankly, this bit of "news" just seems to be NCSoft's latest efforts to get us to give up. Time to turn up the heat, I say.
Never give up, never give in.
...dang it. Sorry for the following. *sighs*
...Never gonna GIVE YOU UP, never gonna LET YOU DOOOWWWWN, never gonna run around and desert yooouuuuu!
/me flees. Fast.
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...dang it. Sorry for the following. *sighs*
...Never gonna GIVE YOU UP, never gonna LET YOU DOOOWWWWN, never gonna run around and desert yooouuuuu!
/me flees. Fast.
*lights Grimm on fire*
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*lights Grimm on fire*
Drunkenly tries to put Grimm out with Pomegranate Schnapps.
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*lights Grimm on fire*
*Adds gasoline*
(yes, I know that would probably destroy me in the process)
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um correct me if I am wrong because I am not that up on these things.. but isnt Nexon also Perfect World ??
Nope, two different MMO publishers (http://www.nexon.net/ & http://www.perfectworld.com/), though I think both are also big in Korea.
A thought....Maybe reopening that 'admitted forger' wound would help? Or could doing something like that potentially do more harm than good? (I only ask because this is the first I've heard about the Richard Garriott issue from back in the Tabula Rasa days. I wasn't a hardcore gamer back then.)
I never heard about that back in the day either since I didn't play TR and didn't read many of the articles beyond the original one.
So yes, when it's time to play hardball, I would also suggest spreading links around to what they did there.
Edit: Replied before reading VV/Larry's reply - that is a much better idea!
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There are plenty of posts on the game forums basically saying that it's time to give up, that there's no point in fighting any more, that it just makes us look bad, like we can't accept reality.
For some people, sure. If you want to give up, that's your prerogative. And there's no shame in it. A man's got to know his limitations.
But even if NCSoft 'wins' by closing the game, they haven't beaten us. And that's what the quitters don't understand. It is possible to lose and remain unbeaten. It's a matter of spirit.
There are several possibilities being discussed here and elsewhere regarding what to do if/when the servers are shut off. Some talk of setting up private servers somehow. Myself, I can't be part of that, because of the grey legal area that enters.
My hope? The spiritual successor. The idea of a new superhero MMO, built from the ground up, with all of the things that made CoH great, and with the ability to fix the things PS couldn't, due to being shackled to an old engine. I would want to be a part of that, whether I'd be writing lore, or simply throwing money at a crowdfund.
And so I remain hopeful. Dauntless. I refuse to be dragged down.
In closing, I am reminded of this scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrXQQmw5xsA&feature=related). Somehow, one of these characters sounds like NCSoft, and one sounds like us.
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As to the topic at hand.....
This is the same company that thought nothing of FORGING a letter from Richard Garriott in order to shut down Tabula Rasa.
Why would we believe anything that admitted forgers have to tell us?
About that, a question... did they admit they forged the resignation, or were they proven to? It's the difference between "okay, we fess up, we forged it" and "no, no, that resignation is legit, yes we're sure, Richard Garriot wrote tha- ooooh, that resignation letter, we thought you meant that other one that wasn't proven to be falsified in the court of law."
Because "proven" has a much harsher connotation than "admitted", but, well, we need to be right, contextually as well as factually, to keep the moral high ground.
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In closing, I am reminded of this scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrXQQmw5xsA&feature=related). Somehow, one of these characters sounds like NCSoft, and one sounds like us.
- can't YouTube from work, but will give even odds it's Rocky -
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First of all I'd like to say. I concur with others. Regarding the NcSoft Status Update. A attempt to try and pacify, deflect and give up hope. A political statement, sounds polite but full of holes. So we feel dispirited, weaken our community and stop (a nice way of saying it) making them accountable. Anyway, I for one will keep striving to achieve our goals.
Thank you to Tony V, from many of us. You are a hero, leading, inspiring, a voice of reason and like a counselor.
Also a great thanks to everyone else who needs a special mention as well. But there are so many. (A big pat on the pack)
This is my first posting here, lol (day 1 today) How did it take me so long to join up? (Slaps myself on the back of the head.)
Like so many of you. I can't stand by and be meek in the face of this murder of what we cherish. Emotions of anger, frustration, empathy. etc. We all have strengths. Some may not realise theirs yet, some are using them furiously. I will do what I can. Knowing that our community will be there to help me. ;D
Cheers!
Welcome aboard, Polarctica! And let me just say... I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that this ham-fisted move by NCsoft, intended to break us and disperse the Community, has had the opposite effect. To say it's lit a fire under people's asses would be putting it mildly; in a matter of hours, the cloud of malaise and apathy that had been growing for the last couple of weeks has vanished, replaced by an explosion of righteous rage and determination. Instead of players giving up and wandering away, we're getting new people signing up to the forums here and lending their support. Fan-freakin'-tastic!
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Or...the wrong Negotiators were used?
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=starwarstheoldrepublic.info%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2Fstar_wars_episode_1.jpg)
(Next step?)
Anakin: When I got to them we got into aggressive negotiations.
Padme: Aggressive negotiations? What's that?
Anakin: Ah, well, it's negotiations with a lightsaber.
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TimtheEnchanter Thank you for posting that picture of AP 33, my char's hard to make out but seeing even just a bit of them in that screen cap made me feel all the days I spent sucking up my bandwidth and ram was worth it. I'll bee keeping Embyron there till the lights goes out or alternative my badger Maya of Oasis. Thanks and as to everyone sometimes we do need a hand up but that's what were here for to keep everyone rolling right?
So /em hold torch
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TimtheEnchanter Thank you for posting that picture of AP 33, my char's hard to make out but seeing even just a bit of them in that screen cap made me feel all the days I spent sucking up my bandwidth and ram was worth it. I'll bee keeping Embyron there till the lights goes out or alternative my badger Maya of Oasis. Thanks and as to everyone sometimes we do need a hand up but that's what were here for to keep everyone rolling right?
So /em hold torch
Awesome and inspirational. My hats off to you. 8)
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This is clearly a victory. I'm pretty sure that this piece of communication never was on NCsoft Agenda. Cherry on the cake, you forced them to lie. We know that they have not exhausted all the options. We have some to show to them, if they need. Maybe it's even time to show that we are able to raise the money needed to run the game (if we have effectively able to). They change their claim. First, closing city of heroes was part of a big reajustment strategy. Now, it is because they have no other choice. I m not sure if it means city of heroes can be saved. But surely, we are not anymore on the plan that was deployed by NCsoft. Keep it up.
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There are plenty of posts on the game forums basically saying that it's time to give up, that there's no point in fighting any more, that it just makes us look bad, like we can't accept reality.
I want to add my own $0.02 to this.
Some time ago, I was thrown into a high-profile and volatile situation that offered a lot of opportunities. But because it was so volatile, a lot of those opportunities would dry up or come to nothing very quickly.
In that environment I learned, and learned fast, that real meaning of "nothing ventured, nothing gained." I had to pursue each opportunity aggressively, even while knowing that most of them wouldn't pan out. Some of those efforts looked a bit pointless at the time. But by doing things that way, I made sure that if one did work out, I was on board and could profit from it. And I did.
This outlook has stayed with me over the years, being one of the best lessons I ever learned: The only way you're guaranteed to fail is if you don't try.
Ignore what others say. If they tell you you aren't being realistic, or look stupid, or whatever--just ignore them. Such statements are at the very least defeatist, and at worst are disinformation (like the NCSoft announcement) propagated by unicorns and ringers. Keep in mind Napoleon's maxim number 16: "It is an approved maxim in war, never to do what the enemy wishes you to do, for this reason alone, that he desires it."
That is my understanting of "facing reality."
I'm also reminded of George Washington's military strategy. As long as he kept his army intact and in the field, he was winning.
So let's stay intact and in the field.
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... Maybe use Maggie's Rock over in Gemini Park, or someplace else rocky in the game that people congregate to?
Tell Bob, we want to use his song Like a Rock in a video to try and save our world.
I think that song would make a WONDERFUL hero song.
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"It always darkest before the Dawn!"
So if it not worth some lets by the IP off then for 20000 dollars, I mean they are saying it worth NOTHING.
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When I first heard the news a month ago, I cried. I have seen many studios and games killed, many because companies bought them just to let them die. Many of you who've talked to me ingame have heard me mention Infocom... they too were a studio bought with the expectation that they would live a long time, still making money. Activision released two sub-par games within a couple years, with even the developers stating that they were being pushed into releasing rushed, substandard product... and then the doors were closed forever. This was before the days of social networking, when the communities were far and scattered. (Though NOT few in number!)
NWN's developers were STILL producing content, ready to release it, when Atari pulled their plug... and forbade ANYONE from mentioning it to the community. Just a quiet lack of updates, no news, no nothing. Thankfully someone blew the whistle within hours. There was no saving the game, and the whistleblower was fired, but Atari got a black eye. Social networking was still young.
Now we have a strong, vibrant community, in a game that has as loyal a following as Zork and NWN ever had, if not far more. Social networking is at its peak, strong and energetic, not yet jaded, and ready to take on the world, or at least NCSoft. We have more support on our side than I have ever seen in all my years in the classic games community. Just by making this effort, we are doing something extremely rare, and almost unheard of. Usually the only games to come back from the dead do so long after their cancellations. We have a chance to stop death in its tracks.
We can be an inspiration to others. We can make this miracle happen.
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As others have pointed out, NCSoft upper managment did NOT work with Paragon Studios; there was no hint that anything was amiss, or that NCSoft needed more profit from CoH (if in fact that's the issue). Nor were steps taken or even explored that I know of to work with the CoH Community to make CoH a product still considered viable by NCSoft.
Not to sound too mean or callus or anything, I'll try to state this as plainly and delicately as I can:
This is the Korean way of doing business.
I'm not making any judgements whatsoever about that part. The Korean way is to run a busness like a kingdom, where the CEO/President is King, and passes down orders. Nobody questions him (just anout all of them are male) or tries to figure out his motivation. And he won't ever explain his decisions, or take input from anyone, because that weakens his position. Employees blindly follow, no matter how far removed they are from those orders. Koreans customers shug and accept crazy company decisions as normal. So Korean companies see us American gamers as spoiled children who complain and ask "why?" when it's not appropriate.
The press release yesterday, I believe, is evidence of that. They are speaking to us like we are those spoiled children who need to be told it's time to stop misbehaving. Mind you, this is not a judgement of their behavior. It's just the way they do things.
Where this takes us, I'm not actually sure. I don't know if we can get them to respect us, or our kindness in negotiations, or if we *have* to do something desperate and ruthless to get their attention. So when I email them again, I suppose I'll use a mixture of both - a polite request, mixed with a demand that they take it seriously. I guess it really can't hurt, can it?
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At times of greatest need, it is the Hero that looks deep into ones self and pulls that extra effort out, to do what others can't. We shall fight until there is no need to fight, We shall save our CITY OF HEROES. We shall not stop trying!
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They're spooked. Since NCSoft announced the end of CoH, their stock price has plunged, and they are being buried in negative publicity. In the gaming world, their reputation is quickly becoming crap. And they're worried about what will happen if this doesn't stop, whence their last missive, which is nothing more than a pathetic attempt at damage control.
We need to turn up the heat.
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I was pretty down last night, but this morning I agree, they've blinked, they've noticed our efforts and want us to stop.
We must prevail.
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Not to sound too mean or callus or anything, I'll try to state this as plainly and delicately as I can:
This is the Korean way of doing business.
I'm not making any judgements whatsoever about that part. The Korean way is to run a busness like a kingdom, where the CEO/President is King, and passes down orders. Nobody questions him (just anout all of them are male) or tries to figure out his motivation. And he won't ever explain his decisions, or take input from anyone, because that weakens his position. Employees blindly follow, no matter how far removed they are from those orders. Koreans customers shug and accept crazy company decisions as normal. So Korean companies see us American gamers as spoiled children who complain and ask "why?" when it's not appropriate.
The press release yesterday, I believe, is evidence of that. They are speaking to us like we are those spoiled children who need to be told it's time to stop misbehaving. Mind you, this is not a judgement of their behavior. It's just the way they do things.
Where this takes us, I'm not actually sure. I don't know if we can get them to respect us, or our kindness in negotiations, or if we *have* to do something desperate and ruthless to get their attention. So when I email them again, I suppose I'll use a mixture of both - a polite request, mixed with a demand that they take it seriously. I guess it really can't hurt, can it?
I'll make a judgement on it then. The company's boss should be the customer the supports their business and gives them the money to wear those fancy pants and act like the King of His Company.
I don't buy into this mindset that some CEO should be rewarded and not questioned for doing bad at his job like as if all these things we bought were gifts from them.
Shoot, if it's a matter of 'if you want it done better, do it yourself', cool man. Sell the IP and let us then. Heck, that's what we wanted in the first place. If they want to think they do all the hard work and we just complain and whine, give us the reigns. We'll do the work. Release the IP as Open Source.
I can't stand this sort of idea that they're the absolute source of all goodness in the world that needs to be coddled and worshiped even if they're terrible. That's a sort of disease idea that's infecting America too, and it bothers me here as well, so I'm sure as heck going to make a judgement on it.
His employees might get a check cut from him, but the money that comes out of his wallet comes from his customers and has the dirty fingerprints of the poor on it.
Worshiping him would be like thanking your bank teller for giving you the money in your bank as if you didn't put it there yourself.
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I want to add my own $0.02 to this.
Some time ago, I was thrown into a high-profile and volatile situation that offered a lot of opportunities. But because it was so volatile, a lot of those opportunities would dry up or come to nothing very quickly.
In that environment I learned, and learned fast, that real meaning of "nothing ventured, nothing gained." I had to pursue each opportunity aggressively, even while knowing that most of them wouldn't pan out. Some of those efforts looked a bit pointless at the time. But by doing things that way, I made sure that if one did work out, I was on board and could profit from it. And I did.
Gothica, I just want you to know that this, perhaps more than anything else, is the kind of advice I need to hear more often. Because even when I know it intellectually, trying on numerous potentially futile efforts is the hardest thing in the world for me to do.
But my entire involvement in the Save CoH effort - and, if it comes to it, in the successor game effort - is an exercise in this. There is opportunity here, as well as sorrow. We can make something greater than what was before, and the greatness is in all of you, the people of this community.
I don't have the investment of time and love and energy that all of you do; I have not played the game in years. My sympathies are with those who are threatened with the loss of their beloved game and community, and my interests are self-interested, but I want to see it saved for all who care about it and see it grow into something newer and greater.
So I am not a pillar of strength for not giving up; I have less to lose here, than do all of you. When I won't give up, it is not because I am stronger than you, but I am glad to offer you any support I can. The strength is yours, for it is your game, your love of it that they seek to use against you. If I do not weep, it is because I am not the hero that you all are. If I do weep, it is in sorrow for your pain, not my own. I will not give up as long as there are fans who will play this game should it survive. I know you will not either. If you think me strong, remember that it is you who carry the heavier burden. I'm a cheerleader, not a champion, but I am honored to cheer for you.
Take heart. We are not done. Take cheer. We have not even heard half the story.
And, since people are posting songs, allow me to share a refrain from a Muse song that seems appropriate regardless of political affiliation:
They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
And we will be victorious!
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When I first heard the news a month ago, I cried. I have seen many studios and games killed, many because companies bought them just to let them die. Many of you who've talked to me ingame have heard me mention Infocom... they too were a studio bought with the expectation that they would live a long time, still making money. Activision released two sub-par games within a couple years, with even the developers stating that they were being pushed into releasing rushed, substandard product... and then the doors were closed forever. This was before the days of social networking, when the communities were far and scattered. (Though NOT few in number!)
NWN's developers were STILL producing content, ready to release it, when Atari pulled their plug... and forbade ANYONE from mentioning it to the community. Just a quiet lack of updates, no news, no nothing. Thankfully someone blew the whistle within hours. There was no saving the game, and the whistleblower was fired, but Atari got a black eye. Social networking was still young.
Now we have a strong, vibrant community, in a game that has as loyal a following as Zork and NWN ever had, if not far more. Social networking is at its peak, strong and energetic, not yet jaded, and ready to take on the world, or at least NCSoft. We have more support on our side than I have ever seen in all my years in the classic games community. Just by making this effort, we are doing something extremely rare, and almost unheard of. Usually the only games to come back from the dead do so long after their cancellations. We have a chance to stop death in its tracks.
We can be an inspiration to others. We can make this miracle happen.
Hell, I'm so old I remember the outrage when Atari dropped the infamous "E.T." stink-bomb for the 2600. The closest thing we had to "social networking" was the phone, so we could commiserate with our proto-gamer buddies, and the letters columns of the few gaming magazines... and Atari still caught a world of Hell for that stunt. If we'd had today's technology, we could've put them out of business in 1982!
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That got brought up during the NWN debacle. I was only a year old when that one happened, sadly. We've come a long way.
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When was the NWN debacle? I wasn't really much of a gamer until I got into college; prior to that, my only gaming experience - despite being very interested - was very localized to a small group of friends, with no knowledge of the wider communities.
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Was that the AOL billing thing?
EDIT: Oh,the NEW NWN debacle. Sorry. :)
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Right around GenCon 2006. NWN2 was coming out, and Atari was publicly saying they'd still give us new stuff for NWN1. Instead, they told the dev team to stop all work immediately, but that the public was NOT to be told. It backfired dramatically.
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Huh. I heard nothing about that one. Weird.
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You! Yes you!
Right there!
You!
Stop what you are doing, and get to singing! Well, note holding. Spread the message that NCsoft holds no grounds and their little scare tactic (of a message) means little to nothing. Bring in more support, sing a crippling blow to NCsoft's agenda!
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Was that the AOL billing thing?
He's talking about the 2002 Bioware game, not the 1991 AOL MMO, I think.
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I was a NWCon organizer, the one in charge of monitoring the DevChats. It's part of the reason NWN2 never really caught on, and why Bioware finally said "frak it" and moved onto Dragon Age. CoH has publicity on its side. (And yes, I mean the Bioware version, not AOL. I did hear many things about the AOL one, however.)
... And Cygnata means "Lady Swan." Hint hint. ;)
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Yeah, I wished I'd checked before showing my age. :P
<quietly shuts off Pool of Radience>
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Nothing wrong with that! ;) I figured more people might know about the recent FUBAR involving NWN, since the MMO isn't as well known.
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You! Yes you!
Right there!
You!
Stop what you are doing, and get to singing! Well, note holding. Spread the message that NCsoft holds no grounds and their little scare tactic (of a message) means little to nothing. Bring in more support, sing a crippling blow to NCsoft's agenda!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBnSWJHawQQ
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:(
Tell me I'm not the youngster in this group. >_>
It's a weird feeling I have when at work, too; I'd been in college so long, I'd started feeling like the grown-up. But now I'm most definitely the kid again. ^^;
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:(
Tell me I'm not the youngster in this group. >_>
It's a weird feeling I have when at work, too; I'd been in college so long, I'd started feeling like the grown-up. But now I'm most definitely the kid again. ^^;
We're all kids at heart.
Hell, some of us refuse to grow up. ;)
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I'm 31... I was 18 when you joined The Gathering PBeM. You can't be THAT much younger than me.
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I was never in that PBEM; I didn't do any online gaming until three years after that. I was in another one, set in Ranoc, with you though, about 4-5 years later.
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We're all kids at heart.
Hell, some of us refuse to grow up. ;)
I always thought it odd that Toys 'R' Us never used Peter Pan to sing their jingle, even when I was a little kid and their commercials were new (to me, at least).
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I don't buy into this mindset that some CEO should be rewarded and not questioned for doing bad at his job like as if all these things we bought were gifts from them.
Ideally, as I understand it (and please correct me if my understanding is flawed), the Neo-Confucian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Confucianism) ideal that motivates the "top-down" command structure is one that mirrors the old Western social philosophy of "noblesse oblige (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_oblige)": both are philosophies held by their respective cultures in less democratic eras of history that reinforced two notions. First, those without power were expected to implicitly trust those that had power. Secondly, those with power were expected to make wise decisions that protected those beneath them.
I know noblesse oblige colors contemporary Western thought in subtle ways. As a resident of the American South, I can vouch for the continued presence of "sacred hospitality," particularly toward those beneath you in the social hierarchy and particularly by those in positions of authority. To other residents of America, hopefully I need say nothing else about the area's past interactions with its own citizens of lower socioeconomic strata. (Talking about those times troubles me.)
The analogue, roughly, would be the combination of ren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren_(Confucianism)) (which includes those above acting with beneficience to those below) and li (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_(Confucianism)) (which emphasizes acting with propriety at all levels, including when interacting with those above you socially). What I don't know is the extent to which these influence modern Korean thought. I know they were embraced wholeheartedly--if somewhat secularly--during the Joseon Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseon_Dynasty), which ended after the American Civil War. Again, to those that live in America, hopefully I need say little more about the echos of that event in modern times.
Plug: for a Western writer's take on some of the issues during Joseon Korea, I recommend the visual novel Analogue: A Hate Story on Steam. I came across it after constructing my own criticism of the South's spotty human rights record in a similar speculative setting with a character in a little game called City of Heroes.
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It might be worth it to all of you to take a look at what I was able to datamine off the net last night as far as several key Korean ideals/concepts/philosopies:
http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,5449.0.html
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So what is their price? If they really can't find a buyer, then maybe they would "fire sale" the product. With a known number, a crowd sourcing buyout might be more achievable.
TR
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I doubt this is the right place to post this HOWEVER I'm hopeful TonyV, Mr W and others will see this here. Community Action Ideas from CoH Official Forum, copied with the original poster's permission, Rubberlad, from: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=4408722&posted=1#post4408722 Thread Title: Dear NCSoft Executives.... YOU'RE FIRED!
[Quote from Rubberlad]
You want a call to action? Here's your call to action:
Start sending emails to NCsoft's shareholders (including Nexon), to the media (including the Wall Street Journal), and to anyone else in Korea that will listen. List out the names of the NCsoft executives that are jeopardizing the company's ability to be profitable - and make it very clear that these individuals singlehandedly SANK NCsoft's profits and put the company's bottom line at risk BEFORE they pulled the plug on a profitable game like City of Heroes -- thereby making an already bad situation even worse. To leave the current executive leadership in charge means further jeopardizing the shareholder's investments and the company's ability to remain profitable. GET RID OF THEM!
Make your letters short, sweet and to the point! Not sure who to name? Look here: http://investing.businessweek.com/re...cker=036570:KS
It's time to stop talking to BAD MANAGEMENT that's struggling to save face and start talking to the other players in the industry who can implement *positive* changes to remove bad management... Maybe then we'll get someone at the top who will listen and reconsider our stance on City of Heroes and Paragon Studios. We CANNOT be nice anymore! So let's take some names and demand their removal...
Sun Tzu wouldn't expect anything less and neither should we!
[signature line = Last edited by Rubberlad; Today at 09:40 AM. Reason: See my post #7 for additional talking points and public information sources. ]
[END QUOTE]
I think there's some good discussion in this new thread started by Rubberlad (or I'd not have posted this here). I'd like to see this idea discussed and integrated into ongoing Save CoH community action IF wiser and more expert action leaders on Titan endorse Rubberlad's proposal.
Additionally, on another thread I read natter, perhaps semi-serious that one tactic would be to work to bankrupt NCSoft so that they'd be forced to liquidate ALL assets, including the CoH IP. I don't have the business acumen to know if this is even remotely feasible and am personally interpreting this as Venting/Wishful Thinking with more than a touch of Revenge Fantasy.
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All ideas I would normally jump on board with, johnrobey, but I suggest reading the "kibun" thread that just recently was posted.
That said, these ideas still have merit! We should, however, adjust the strategy a little. The "dance" in these letters needs to leave an out, leave room to demonstrate that not only do we care about NCSoft and its executives' kibun, but that we are seeking to directly salvage it and give them a chance to elevate, rather than shamefully damage, our own.
We still need to stay strong. But apparently, to the Korean mindset, gentle couching of the aggression is not the weakness it would be seen as to Western (and especially middle eastern) mindsets. So...be strong, be firm, but be - more than polite - ever-willing to open the door to mutual good-feelings if only they will also participate.
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In light of this stuff, I think I'm most interested in hearing how progress is going on the private server stuff. That seems to be the best bet for the game to continue on, even if it means no additional content for CoH ever again. Though I'd be even happier if people also figured out how to add new powersets or contacts to the game, at least there'd be Mission Architect for people to make more stuff to do as long as there's still people around to play it.
I'd just really like to have some info on how it's going.
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I had an idea that may be so good i got my thread deleted: Amazon.com 1-Star Rating Protest Campaign.
It is a move that has worked for some in the past, at worst, it may bring attention of some press. At best, it may put enough pressure on NCSoft to stop tossing BS at us.
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In light of this stuff, I think I'm most interested in hearing how progress is going on the private server stuff. That seems to be the best bet for the game to continue on, even if it means no additional content for CoH ever again. Though I'd be even happier if people also figured out how to add new powersets or contacts to the game, at least there'd be Mission Architect for people to make more stuff to do as long as there's still people around to play it.
I'd just really like to have some info on how it's going.
This! Also, I wonder if since technically Bio Armor is on the live servers (but is somehow locked from being purchased) would a reverse engineered version of the game include Bio Armor because I'm assuming there won't be a market.
Also, I like the idea of appealing to Nexon and other shareholders because I'm pretty sure NCSoft doesn't give a crap anymore.
And another thing on private servers, I read a post a couple of weeks ago from a guy that said that he was from a country that had a "good luck enforcing that" mentality to copyrights. Since I'm pretty sure this would be illegal in the US and some other countries, how hard would it be to set up this server (or servers) in a country with laxed laws on this?
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Rubberlad's idea can fit within how I read the post on Kibun.
(Also, I'm a bit embarrassed that I was beaten to the punch on that. My goal for today was to find that sort of thing. :))
Starsman, I'm assuming that you refer to something like this (http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/09/how_anti_circumcision_activists_try_to_squelch_hiv_aids_science.html)? I'd been mulling this one over after seeing a thread about PR, but wasn't sure how it could be applied to our efforts. Did you have something specific in mind?
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A private server is going to be illegal, plain and simple. But that isn't something people should be worrying about. If NCsoft isn't going to keep the game alive, they shouldn't care about someone else doing it for free. If they do, then ignore them. They haven't cared about what the playerbase wants, so there's no reason to respect their wishes in this regard.
This isn't World of Warcraft, this isn't a game that's still alive people are offering a free alternative to paying for. When a private server would be up, CoH itself would be gone. If NCsoft isn't going to offer a way to play the game, then there's no reason to kowtow to them wanting to shut someone else's efforts down. Besides, they don't care about the US market anyway, so what would it matter to them?
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Actually...
THAT would be another thing we could work with them on, if we can approach them from a "preserve kibun" standpoint: The presence of scheduled items that nobody can access is a would to their kibun in much the way that letting somebody come in to finish work knowing that they're being fired next week would be. It would be a good move on their part to get somebody to unlock that content.
If we start working on the principle of incrementalism, we might be able to push that into "and if you'll just keep the servers running for a little longer, so people can enjoy that now-unlocked content," we might be able to "if you give a mouse a cookie" them into parting with the IP.
The idea that they don't need money NOW is a troubling one (brought up in another thread). It may mean they need something else, which we might be able to provide if we can figure out what it is. Even if it's intangible.
...maybe something as simple as large but not controlling shares in the new, separate company, preserving their ability to get profit from it without requiring them to actually support the company.
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This isn't World of Warcraft, this isn't a game that's still alive people are offering a free alternative to paying for. When a private server would be up, CoH itself would be gone. If NCsoft isn't going to offer a way to play the game, then there's no reason to kowtow to them wanting to shut someone else's efforts down. Besides, they don't care about the US market anyway, so what would it matter to them?
I don't play many other MMOs so I didn't really put the "this isn't a game that's still alive people are offering a free alternative to paying for" thought process behind my post. You have a good point, but I'm pretty sure (and I hate to say this again) that I read in another post here that Tabula Rasa players put up a private server that NCSoft successfully shut down. I might be wrong here, but I swear I read it right here on these forums.
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I want to add my own $0.02 to this.
Some time ago, I was thrown into a high-profile and volatile situation that offered a lot of opportunities. But because it was so volatile, a lot of those opportunities would dry up or come to nothing very quickly.
In that environment I learned, and learned fast, that real meaning of "nothing ventured, nothing gained." I had to pursue each opportunity aggressively, even while knowing that most of them wouldn't pan out. Some of those efforts looked a bit pointless at the time. But by doing things that way, I made sure that if one did work out, I was on board and could profit from it. And I did.
This outlook has stayed with me over the years, being one of the best lessons I ever learned: The only way you're guaranteed to fail is if you don't try.
Ignore what others say. If they tell you you aren't being realistic, or look stupid, or whatever--just ignore them. Such statements are at the very least defeatist, and at worst are disinformation (like the NCSoft announcement) propagated by unicorns and ringers. Keep in mind Napoleon's maxim number 16: "It is an approved maxim in war, never to do what the enemy wishes you to do, for this reason alone, that he desires it."
That is my understanting of "facing reality."
I'm also reminded of George Washington's military strategy. As long as he kept his army intact and in the field, he was winning.
So let's stay intact and in the field.
Kind of reminds me of an IC quote I made last week.
[Local] Hour Thief: You of all people ought to know that if there's one thing human beings do best, it's find something to fight about until they're either dead or victorious.
Seems we haven't been killed just yet.
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I don't play many other MMOs so I didn't really put the "this isn't a game that's still alive people are offering a free alternative to paying for" thought process behind my post. You have a good point, but I'm pretty sure (and I hate to say this again) that I read in another post here that Tabula Rasa players put up a private server that NCSoft successfully shut down. I might be wrong here, but I swear I read it right here on these forums.
I hadn't heard about that, but it's certainly possible. I have to imagine the public backlash to NCsoft shutting down the game and then following that up by attempting to shut down private servers for it would be pretty nasty though. Most private servers get by as being relatively small affairs that can keep their information quiet and not attract attention, but a CoH one in the wake of the game shutting down would probably end up being fairly high-profile as far as private servers go. So it's kind of an unorthodox situation.
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Since we know they have lurkers, here, any private servers they do find will be linked to us, whether it's someone here doing it, or not.
<waves to the lurkers>
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One thing I have seen a lot of is a call for boycotting NCSoft totally. Personally, I agree with this. With enough, we could basically shut down their US market. (Realistically, I don't see that happening...but it is a nice visual ;D )
But, seeing Victoria Victrix on here made me think about wider reaching effects this may have. Like HER income! I HOPE all of this does not threaten the Secret World Chronicles. I mean, I don't know what connection to NCSoft these books have since it is basically set in a COH alternate universe (not asking, none of my business) but I hope that our actions to save COH do not harm Victoria financially.
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Since we know they have lurkers, here, any private servers they do find will be linked to us, whether it's someone here doing it, or not.
<waves to the lurkers>
Honestly? If so, I have a message for NcSoft. Thank you for your response, no, really! Now here's the deal, you're shutting this game down, which means you won't be making any money on it, however you have made money on it (and then some) on all the years you have invested into it. Trying to recoup that back investment by asking for it in the sale price is stupid and immoral, you've already MADE MONEY ON THAT INVESTMENT. So rather than sitting on IP,that is obviously worthless to you (or you'd keep the game going), sell the game &the the studio to someone for a reasonable price. Trying to sell it for the amount of money you have put into it is idiotic and wasteful, it's a digital entity,not a house.
Failure to do wo will make your brand so toxic it will effectively poison all who do business with you, this includes Nexon, H & K Strategies, and others.
One final thing NcSoft, try not to commit any forgeries or fraud this time; your stock holders won't toleratebe another multimillion dollar payout.
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Additionally, on another thread I read natter, perhaps semi-serious that one tactic would be to work to bankrupt NCSoft so that they'd be forced to liquidate ALL assets, including the CoH IP. I don't have the business acumen to know if this is even remotely feasible and am personally interpreting this as Venting/Wishful Thinking with more than a touch of Revenge Fantasy.
Short term, I think the only way to do this would be real life supervillainy. Either the illegal kind or the Bain Capital kind.
Long term would be by making their brand toxic, not only in America but in Korea. I'm pretty sure our continuing campaign will make them toxic here. Korea I don't know.
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Long term would be by making their brand toxic, not only in America but in Korea. I'm pretty sure our continuing campaign will make them toxic here. Korea I don't know.
Does anyone here have a friend or relative station in South Korea with the United Nations Command (Korea)?
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Long term would be by making their brand toxic, not only in America but in Korea. I'm pretty sure our continuing campaign will make them toxic here. Korea I don't know.
;D Put pressure on the S. Korean government: Get NCSoft to sell or we pull all aid and troops from S. Korea! LOL (Don't I wish we had that kind of pull LOL ;D )
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One thing I have seen a lot of is a call for boycotting NCSoft totally. Personally, I agree with this. With enough, we could basically shut down their US market. (Realistically, I don't see that happening...but it is a nice visual ;D )
But, seeing Victoria Victrix on here made me think about wider reaching effects this may have. Like HER income! I HOPE all of this does not threaten the Secret World Chronicles. I mean, I don't know what connection to NCSoft these books have since it is basically set in a COH alternate universe (not asking, none of my business) but I hope that our actions to save COH do not harm Victoria financially.
Interesting...
Something for Plan Y/Z to consider, possibly: would Ms. Lackey be willing to let Paragon make an MMO based on them? Wait, there already is an MMO based on them. Something to check out. :)
*Gets the books*
;D Put pressure on the S. Korean government: Get NCSoft to sell or we pull all aid and troops from S. Korea! LOL (Don't I wish we had that kind of pull LOL ;D )
Yeah, I thought about this, even posted, somewhat facetiously, a while back on it, in fact. I wonder how many here have revenge fantasies of seeing the epilogue CoH (CoV, really) written in South Korean blood. That's what removing American troops from Korea would mean, after all.
EDIT: I would rather NCSoft just allow the IP to be sold, to somebody.
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One thing I have seen a lot of is a call for boycotting NCSoft totally. Personally, I agree with this. With enough, we could basically shut down their US market. (Realistically, I don't see that happening...but it is a nice visual ;D )
But, seeing Victoria Victrix on here made me think about wider reaching effects this may have. Like HER income! I HOPE all of this does not threaten the Secret World Chronicles. I mean, I don't know what connection to NCSoft these books have since it is basically set in a COH alternate universe (not asking, none of my business) but I hope that our actions to save COH do not harm Victoria financially.
I am utterly confident that the fanbase and sales for our good friend and compatriot will see no harm. Anyone here become a Mercedes Lackey fan recently? :)
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Yes, and I haven't even read any of her books yet.
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For those who do not know:
http://www.twitch.tv/paragonstudios
Hit Streak will be on in about 7 minutes. Come join the fun.
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I am utterly confident that the fanbase and sales for our good friend and compatriot will see no harm. Anyone here become a Mercedes Lackey fan recently? :)
Not *recently*, no...
Well, unless you count 1986 as recent. :)
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Thanks as usual TonyV for the update and the words of cheers.
I must admit that reading the announcement made my trigger finger seriously itchy and my Low Orbit Ion Cannon was aimed straight at NCSoft !
But then I thought that there would be a time for retribution and that the time had not come yet !
NCSoft can still come to their senses and release the IP and source code to the community ... or instead of pretending, actually listen to the various offers they must have received by now !
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[First Post]
Hey all, new poster here. First, a big thank you to all the guys here. I rarely have seen such community spirit and positivity!
I'm almost a seven year vet of CoX (well... my 7th year would have been on 1st of December :roll:), having started with City of Villains and staying mostly redside. I haven't heard that CoX was clsoing down until last weekend. Never got an email from NCSoft. I had to learn it from a buddy from Germany who was visiting on Saturday... a buddy I met seven years ago in, you guessed right, City of Villains. I was shocked. I never played much during the last years, popped in a few times every year to see how things are going, though I never cancelled my account, not even when "Freedom" hit (I dunno - felt like treason to me).
I started digging around on the net and found this place. Good, I thought, something is on its way. Nontheless Monday at work was horrible, even Tuesday. I couldn't get CoX out of my head. What can I do? What can I do? I asked myself.
This morning, before going to work, I saw the new letter from NCSoft. I was shattered. All those efforts for nothing? I read through this thread during breaks and my spirits lifted again.
Thanks to you guys I'm feeling better. I've got some ideas how to reach some non-gaming forums where I frequent and will raise the issue there. Perhaps one of them might sign the petition, too.
And although I was more at home in the Rogue Isles:
We are Heroes. This is what heroes do. (well, there has to be something which I can conquer, after all ;))
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You've got my axe... um... well I don't have an axe. I'll go buy an axe.
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You've got my axe... um... well I don't have an axe. I'll go buy an axe.
*hands you a Fender American Deluxe*
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You've got my axe... um... well I don't have an axe. I'll go buy an axe.
I may have a spare. It has some nicks and dents, the last time I used it was to chop up a computer...
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You've got my axe... um... well I don't have an axe. I'll go buy an axe.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.mydailyprogress.com%2Fimages%2Fuploads%2Faxe_kilo.jpg)
I'm sure there's a few people on this forum who could use my Axe. If gamer stereotypes are to be believed.
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It prompted me to finally order the Heralds of Valdemar series, something a friend had recommended a while ago too.
Now if only they'd deliver them so I can have some quality reading material for my long train rides... =/
Many people enjoy them, although they aren't my personal cup of tea. Tried them, bounced. Enjoyed some of her other work, though, and she's certainly a class act in re COH.
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did i miss the twitch tv thing?
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did i miss the twitch tv thing?
I wouldn't say you 'missed' anything...but yes, it's over.
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did i miss the twitch tv thing?
The video is up for your leisure, but DrakeGrimm said, nothing new that was allowable by NDA.
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For those of us unable to watch it, can we get a synopsis? In particular, did they corroborate, deny, or in any way address the press release about "exhausting all options?"
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If you can't see the archived video on TwitchTV, I uploaded a copy to https://dl.dropbox.com/u/33551029/paragonstudios_City_of_Heroes_Freedom_on_live_user_paragonstudios_1349285364.flv
I don't know how much bandwidth allocation I still have, though, so if someone can upload it elsewhere, that'd be groovy.
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My issue is mainly "I'm at work for the next few hours."
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For those of us unable to watch it, can we get a synopsis? In particular, did they corroborate, deny, or in any way address the press release about "exhausting all options?"
Not really. I got the distinct impression that they've told Hit Streak about as much (or in this case, as little) as they've told us.
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Positron mentioned in the stream's chat that, by and large, the community seemed more well-informed about what was going on than the dev team, so I doubt there's anything else any of them could tell us about what's going on that we don't already know.
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Positron mentioned in the stream's chat that, by and large, the community seemed more well-informed about what was going on than the dev team, so I doubt there's anything else any of them could tell us about what's going on that we don't already know.
Positron's not working there anymore, as far as I know. But Hitstreak is the acting community manager. It stands to reason that Hitstreak probably knows something, even if it's just a handful of inferences based on what NCsoft tells him he can't say.
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Not really. I got the distinct impression that they've told Hit Streak about as much (or in this case, as little) as they've told us.
I get the impression, not from HitStreak but from Positron, that they have told them more than they've told us. At least, Posi was part of the negotiating force, and they're not negotiating any more (at least, not that he knows of).
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I get the impression, not from HitStreak but from Positron, that they have told them more than they've told us. At least, Posi was part of the negotiating force, and they're not negotiating any more (at least, not that he knows of).
I did not know Posi was part of the negotiations. That alone tells me he knows more than we do, because he knows how NCsoft turned them down.
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I get the impression, not from HitStreak but from Positron, that they have told them more than they've told us. At least, Posi was part of the negotiating force, and they're not negotiating any more (at least, not that he knows of).
By necessity people like a business manager, an investor, or even a development lead might be in on those sessions.
Assistant Community Manager? Yeah, sorry to say it but they're not going to tell him any more than they have to to do his job.
If he's still working for NCsoft his own former coworkers may not even be able to tell him what's going on without putting him in a bad spot. It's a sucky position to be in.
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I have immense respect for TonyV and all the other people who have put so much effort into the plan to in some way save City of Heroes. But (you could hear that coming I guess) I for one have given up, I don't see either the IP or the game being saved. Even if the IP could be bought it is doubtful it would be in the price range for crowd sourcing. I'm not an industry insider I don't *know* how much a successful computer game IP is worth but I'd expect multiple millions.
If it were out of character for NCSoft to just shut something down with little or no warning, then yes you might have had a chance but with NCSoft's track record I was pretty certain from when I heard the announcement that this was the end of things.
And for the record even though I stopped playing (paying for) the game a better part of a year ago CoH was my first real MMO, my online alter-ego is still my 2nd try at a scrapper (my 1st a Fitness free Dark/Dark was deleted shortly before the release of i4 due to being completely gimped), I played from the EU beta and so far all the other games I've played have been rated by the CoH standard and no so far none have quite achieved it... GW2 is close but not quite there.
City of Heroes has helped me keep my mental disfunctionality from doing more damage than it ought, given me an outlet into which I can push the person I should be into something approaching reality. I won't say that CoH has stopped me from ending it all... or trying... but only because that could be laid at the door of any MMO I play (I guess).
But no I never believed CoH could be saved.
And why post this negative view here? Because rather than vowing to RE the server so that Titan et al can bring up 'pirate' versions of the game the annoucement should be looked at as the call to actually get on with a new project. It might not end up as Phoenix City (I don't really care for that name myself). Fan led reanimations of closed MMOs do happen...? I don't know of any myself, but they must happen? Right? ((That is closed MMOs that the fans recreate/reverse engineer to bring up servers for fans to play on and don't get sued by the original owners.))
Fan led recreating of games that are no longer updated... or are abandoned by their devs, or the devs vanish... etc... ((FreeCiv - Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe - Spring Engine (Total Annihilation) - And many others.))
Now those do happen, so maybe instead of concentrating on the dubious legal possibility of recreating copyright material (Tabula Rasa fans failed at that) concentrate on something they cannot prevent!
TL:DR
City of Heroes is Dead - Long live Phoenix City (or similar).
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Well, Posi did say something about not being able to say anything until Nov 1.
Which probably means he's still under contract until the end of this month. We'll just have to wait and see.
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I did not know Posi was part of the negotiations. That alone tells me he knows more than we do, because he knows how NCsoft turned them down.
I assumed that he was. I don't know for sure, I guess, but from ThorsAssassin's post at the dinner, I got that impression.
City of Heroes is Dead - Long live Phoenix City (or similar).
You are probably right, but I do find myself wondering about what can be done without NCSoft being able to track it down.
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You are probably right, but I do find myself wondering about what can be done without NCSoft being able to track it down.
Track what down? Plan Z? Plan Z doesn't use anything NCSoft owns. If they want to try to shut down a project they have no legal right to, let them try. I'd love to clean their clocks in a US court.
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Honestly, I do not believe NC-Soft can survive this.
Sure, their major player-base is in Korea now. But in the highly competitive world of MMOs, I cannot imagine anyone would prefer one of the notorious "game killer's" titles to, say, Sony, who's been running and supporting Everquest since 1999. (Sony's had PR boondoggles too. Still, replacing Galaxies with SWTOR is one thing, and just cancelling a popular game is something else.)
This sort of notoriety cannot help but spread, even across the Pacific and the language barrier. NC-Soft shot themselves in the foot. The cost of continuing CoH, or even just putting it on life-support on a single server, is miniscule. Having such a strike against one's new releases, having an outspoken community of gamers posting "we hate NC-Soft!" "NC-Soft commits fraud and forgery!" "Boycott NC-Soft!" on message boards that you do not control... that is expensive!
I will go so far as to predict that NC-Soft will within the next year change its name and claim to be under new management in an attempt to put this fiasco behind them, just like any shady company.
We want to wait for Tony and the rest to confirm, of course, but I say it's time to initiate plan Z, and also to use the Internet to tell gamers worldwide why we hate this company.
Time to initiate plan "SMASH NC-SOFT!"
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I wouldn't dare say all options are gone. Maybe they are right now, but that doesn't mean anything. There are other ways that CoH could end up getting sold. One example... NC can't afford not to because they need the cash. PR blunders like this can end up doing serious damage, and they've chosen the wrong city to tick off.
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Track what down? Plan Z? Plan Z doesn't use anything NCSoft owns. If they want to try to shut down a project they have no legal right to, let them try. I'd love to clean their clocks in a US court.
I was referring to private servers. A private server with a public link to which a thousand people can play is something they could find and shut down. But a private server on a single computer with a dozen friends online at a time - and which isn't even online when said friends aren't playing - that's much harder to track down. Basically the LAN-version of CoH.
Honestly, I do not believe NC-Soft can survive this.
Sure, their major player-base is in Korea now. But in the highly competitive world of MMOs, I cannot imagine anyone would prefer one of the notorious "game killer's" titles to, say, Sony, who's been running and supporting Everquest since 1999. (Sony's had PR boondoggles too. Still, replacing Galaxies with SWTOR is one thing, and just cancelling a popular game is something else.)
I will go so far as to predict that NC-Soft will within the next year change its name and claim to be under new management in an attempt to put this fiasco behind them, just like any shady company.
Well, best case scenario, within the year NCSoft really will be under new management, and that new management will realize that there is one thing that they can do that will kill their bad reputation - bring CoH and Tabula Rasa back from the dead!
That said, we need to watch for NCSoft to try this tactic, and be ready to spread the word of their new name when they do.
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I wouldn't dare say all options are gone. Maybe they are right now, but that doesn't mean anything. There are other ways that CoH could end up getting sold. One example... NC can't afford not to because they need the cash. PR blunders like this can end up doing serious damage, and they've chosen the wrong city to tick off.
Wrong CITIES! The heroes may be bad enough to tick off, but remember, there are VILLAINS among us, too!
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Well, Posi did say something about not being able to say anything until Nov 1.
Which probably means he's still under contract until the end of this month. We'll just have to wait and see.
Where, when & link to November 1st date being mentioned please. First I've heard that date.
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Where, when & link to November 1st date being mentioned please. First I've heard that date.
It was in the Twitch.tv chat today. He said that he is under contract to NCsoft through the end of this month due to California's WARN Act requiring 60 day notice for layoffs the magnitude of that which NCsoft incurred. As for November 1, though, he is no longer under contract to NCsoft and will be available to do other things.
I suspect that's how long that most former Paragon Staffers have, though some might have severance packages that last longer. So while I don't expect a flood of information on November 1, it wouldn't surprise me if stuff started trickling out. (And to clarify, I don't mean from Matt Miller directly; probably from word-of-mouth as more devs start talking to friends who tell others.) The reason I don't think the floodgates will open is because as a matter of professionalism, it's bad form to badmouth your former employer. Since a lot of these folks are looking for jobs, I suspect that a lot of them will still adopt the "no comment" standpoint. Still, that's probably an inflection point at which time we'll start getting a little more scoop about what's going on.
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I am utterly confident that the fanbase and sales for our good friend and compatriot will see no harm. Anyone here become a Mercedes Lackey fan recently? :)
I actually picked up Invasion to start reading it shortly before the announcement was made! I admit I'd not ever read any of Victoria's work before this but the fact it was inspired out of City of Heroes sparked my curiosity. I'm loving it immensely! So yes, newb fan, here!
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To add to what TonyV said, don't assume Posi was in on the negotiations at all. In fact, it's highly likely he wasn't.
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I will go so far as to predict that NC-Soft will within the next year change its name and claim to be under new management in an attempt to put this fiasco behind them, just like any shady company.
This is definitely going to happen. They are mostly owned by Nexon now, and I'm sure within a year or two's time they'll simply be absorbed into Nexon entirely and effectively 'vanish'.
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All I got out of that press release was, "We're not talking to Brian Clayton any more. We gave up on negotiating with the one party we decided was worthy of negotiation." No more, no less. This is not a sign to give up.
I do think it bears saying that the goal of efforts to save CoH is to save the game. The minute this about taking vengeance on NCSoft rather than saving CoH, the fight to save CoH ends.
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My question is do we keep sending them emails? Not mean or aggressive emails but emails letting them know we weren't born yesterday and we don't believe for a second they have "Exhausted all options." I know when I am trying to be shut up and I know when there is a bold face lie in front of me and NCsoft did both of those things. So do we write more? We got them to talk once and I am sure they figured "Oh this will shut them up" so I think we should keep at it, keep spamming their inbox's with heart filled stories. (However don't do this without a Call to Action from a higher up)
P.S. There is a clearly a reason why they don't want to sell this game, in the business world it is almost always some affiliate, majority stockholder, and or partner companies that think this game may compete with one of theirs or something. I am sure they did talk to some people about buying the game other wise they would of been lying to us which is too risky. Talking to someone and saying "No we aren't selling it" is exhausting all options if that was your one and only option.
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I do think it bears saying that the goal of efforts to save CoH is to save the game. The minute this about taking vengeance on NCSoft rather than saving CoH, the fight to save CoH ends.
Indeed, if it's only natural to feel drawn to vengeance, think that we'll lose much more than we can gain if we go this direction !
Edit: Fixed quote tags --TV
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Keep the pressure on.
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Indeed, if it's only natural to feel drawn to vengeance, think that we'll lose much more than we can gain if we go this direction !
Vengeance is only to be taken if everything else fails, and I will not expect TonyV, Titan, or the SaveCoH movement to be associated with or involved in such actions.
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Eat those blues. Keep your endurance up. We still need Tactics and Maneuvers.
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I have immense respect for TonyV and all the other people who have put so much effort into the plan to in some way save City of Heroes. But (you could hear that coming I guess) I for one have given up, I don't see either the IP or the game being saved. Even if the IP could be bought it is doubtful it would be in the price range for crowd sourcing. I'm not an industry insider I don't *know* how much a successful computer game IP is worth but I'd expect multiple millions.
If it were out of character for NCSoft to just shut something down with little or no warning, then yes you might have had a chance but with NCSoft's track record I was pretty certain from when I heard the announcement that this was the end of things.
And for the record even though I stopped playing (paying for) the game a better part of a year ago CoH was my first real MMO, my online alter-ego is still my 2nd try at a scrapper (my 1st a Fitness free Dark/Dark was deleted shortly before the release of i4 due to being completely gimped), I played from the EU beta and so far all the other games I've played have been rated by the CoH standard and no so far none have quite achieved it... GW2 is close but not quite there.
City of Heroes has helped me keep my mental disfunctionality from doing more damage than it ought, given me an outlet into which I can push the person I should be into something approaching reality. I won't say that CoH has stopped me from ending it all... or trying... but only because that could be laid at the door of any MMO I play (I guess).
But no I never believed CoH could be saved.
And why post this negative view here? Because rather than vowing to RE the server so that Titan et al can bring up 'pirate' versions of the game the annoucement should be looked at as the call to actually get on with a new project. It might not end up as Phoenix City (I don't really care for that name myself). Fan led reanimations of closed MMOs do happen...? I don't know of any myself, but they must happen? Right? ((That is closed MMOs that the fans recreate/reverse engineer to bring up servers for fans to play on and don't get sued by the original owners.))
Fan led recreating of games that are no longer updated... or are abandoned by their devs, or the devs vanish... etc... ((FreeCiv - Open Transport Tycoon Deluxe - Spring Engine (Total Annihilation) - And many others.))
Now those do happen, so maybe instead of concentrating on the dubious legal possibility of recreating copyright material (Tabula Rasa fans failed at that) concentrate on something they cannot prevent!
TL:DR
City of Heroes is Dead - Long live Phoenix City (or similar).
Respectfully - we don't know that it is lost until the final end comes, and that could be for quite some time after the servers go down - if they do.
Also - Yes, people have failed to save games before and NCSoft is a tough nut to crack but how many other situations have been saved by a refusal to give in?
To paraphrase Edmund Burke - "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing."
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Eat those blues. Keep your endurance up. We still need Tactics and Maneuvers.
*starts handing out the Recovery Serum syringes*
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But a private server on a single computer with a dozen friends online at a time - and which isn't even online when said friends aren't playing - that's much harder to track down. Basically the LAN-version of CoH.
My SG and I would preserve most of our enjoyment of the game under a setup like this. If NCsoft could somehow repackage this into a reasonably-priced standalone product, we would probably buy it.
As a side note, I'd imagine the host would have access to normally-restricted functions--the sorts of things that might make iTrials easy to complete with only a team of 8, for instance.
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I don't have much hope that NCsoft will change its mind, although it's possible that the value of the IP will get lower will time, which will allow buying it. Still, I'd rather know what the price is now, if possible.
I'm worried that as time passes it will get harder to save the game because fewer people will care about it. When the servers close people will move on to other things. They will be resigned and accept that the game has closed. If some time down the road the game will be revived, a lot of people will have moved to other MMO's or other things in their lives, and even if they would still have a place in their heart for CoH I don't expect that they would go back to it and play the way they did before.
Even now some people are burning bridges by deleting characters, or by not trying to record them, and the game servers are already more empty. I fear that if we don't find a solution soon then the only viable solution will be to create a new, similar game which will be attractive enough to get people back, and that would be a huge undertaking.
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I don't have much hope that NCsoft will change its mind, although it's possible that the value of the IP will get lower will time, which will allow buying it. Still, I'd rather know what the price is now, if possible.
I'm worried that as time passes it will get harder to save the game because fewer people will care about it. When the servers close people will move on to other things. They will be resigned and accept that the game has closed. If some time down the road the game will be revived, a lot of people will have moved to other MMO's or other things in their lives, and even if they would still have a place in their heart for CoH I don't expect that they would go back to it and play the way they did before.
Even now some people are burning bridges by deleting characters, or by not trying to record them, and the game servers are already more empty. I fear that if we don't find a solution soon then the only viable solution will be to create a new, similar game which will be attractive enough to get people back, and that would be a huge undertaking.
Even if we do manage to save it, I think it's important to make creating CoH2 a priority - because make no mistake, this whole thing will have already cost the game dearly playerwise..
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While I have not heard anything directly I think it is fair to assume NCSoft has stopped talking to formerly-known-as-Paragon. Money could be a big reason. Time is on our side there.
1.) The closer we come to Nov 30, the more the CoH brand "degrades" and the less the IP is worth
2.) We can still keep looking for venture capitalists to add to Brian's pool
3.) After Nov 30 the IP severely degrades in value
4.) It is very possible to start pointing out to Nexon that the stock they bought in anticipation of making money is, thanks to NCSoft's poor management, sinking. Therefore, it is in Nexon's interest to use their controlling interest to pressure NCSoft into reversing their stance. NOTE: Nexon is Japanese-owned, not Korean. That might be something we can use.
The time for revenge is not yet. However, it might be time to make it clear we have a knife in one hand; I'll defer to people with more expertise on that score.
Tony, you may totally use that on your resume. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't mean it.
(For those of you only interested in CoH, skip this part and go on to the next poster)
The Secret World Chronicles superhero series is in no way, shape, nor form related to The Secret World MMO. In fact, we had the name first, and didn't think there was any need to trademark it (which is an expensive proposition at a time when it was just a free podcast). To this day I am still not sure why the producer decided to take that name for his game, when it already had a perfectly good one. I've never been contacted by any of them. My agent has advised to not make an issue of it, since they can't deny us the use of the name (even though they trademarked it) based on the fact that we had it first, but if we went after them in any way, it would become an expensive disaster that we would lose.
When the book series was finally sold, it was my idea to go to Paragon and say "Hey, the characters here got their start in CoH even though we've completely removed them from anything like CoH for this book, how about if we cross-promote?" because I thought that was a better, more cooperative, and more honest solution to the fact that our characters were birthed in the game than trying to pretend nothing like that had happened and hope Paragon didn't notice. And because the folks at Paragon are flexible, creative and smart, they loved the idea.
I don't think the loss of CoH is going to matter to SWC one way or the other, when it comes to how well or poorly the books do. I do think that the loss of CoH is going to make my life much sadder and lonelier (Larry said as much last night).
Would we offer the use of ECHO, SWC-Earth, as the setting for an MMO? In a heartbeat. I'd probably have to have some long talks with Russ about how it would be important to the four of us to allow the licensing of the property for a mere token, but I think I could talk him around to it as a great publicity venue. And we'd obviously have to change the name: maybe to ECHO Earth or something like that.
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All I got out of that press release was, "We're not talking to Brian Clayton any more. We gave up on negotiating with the one party we decided was worthy of negotiation." No more, no less. This is not a sign to give up.
I do think it bears saying that the goal of efforts to save CoH is to save the game. The minute this about taking vengeance on NCSoft rather than saving CoH, the fight to save CoH ends.
Well, if we can't save CoH, then the fight is about making sure no company ever dares to try and pull something like this ever again. That is, saving other games. The blue side, Titan, can do this through our continuing PR efforts.
......any truly red side efforts can be done by unaffiliated and scattered individuals. Anything like that requires less people than the titan effort is using. And there's most likely nothing we can do to stop them. I have a bit of a morbid curiosity in finding out whatever that will mean.
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Money could be a big reason.
Pure speculation: My gut says money probably wasn't the issue. I suspect "terms" may have played a significant part.
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I came here and I am sure I had something more to say...
But I needed to catch up and read through all of these pages...
And now my brain is all mush and I can't quite form the words...
I believe it was to say that... Yeah, we made them take enough notice to make another move (releasing a statement to rather vapidly attempt to save face).
We can say, "Boo... they won't sell... that option is closed." Or we can stand up, keep fighting and force them to keep making more moves until we actually possibly push them into truly offering the game for a reasonable amount to anyone out there that is capable and willing to take it on.
Regardless of anything else... there is zero way, in any reality, that any such path should have been "exhausted" in such a short amount of time.
We can send them some Energy Drinks and tell them to keep trying, we believe in ya! ;)
In all honesty, I believe in us.
Mayhaps it is time to make another big show of our unity and our resolve?
They can tell us that it is over. They can tell us that it is a done deal. They can tell us that it is impossible.
But we can say that it's not over until we quit. And there is NO quit inside of us.
We are fighting for what is right.
And we are fighting for more than just this game and for more than just our wonderful community.
We are fighting for the validity of any and all mmorpgs that provide ongoing enjoyment, support for a community and turn into something more than a few years of investment.
We're fighting for every future passionate player.
We're fighting for every artist, designer and developer that pours themselves into these ongoing collaborations.
We're fighting for the future of mmorpgs and how and what we, as people, believe is right and wrong regarding the life cycles and continuations of these social ventures.
We're fighting for the right of "smaller" business ventures to be freed from larger billion-dollar-corporations that throw away profits that others would love to have.
This is what we do... Because this is what we must do.
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Hmmmm... Maybe we should do a fundraiser to send NCSoft a bunch of caffenated beverages or 5 hour energies to help them renew negotiations.
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Would we offer the use of ECHO, SWC-Earth, as the setting for an MMO? In a heartbeat. I'd probably have to have some long talks with Russ about how it would be important to the four of us to allow the licensing of the property for a mere token, but I think I could talk him around to it as a great publicity venue. And we'd obviously have to change the name: maybe to ECHO Earth or something like that.
I'm intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Pure speculation: My gut says money probably wasn't the issue. I suspect "terms" may have played a significant part.
I agree. We know that there were at least multiple groups of investors. There's something more that NCsoft doesn't want people to know.
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I agree. We know that there were at least multiple groups of investors. There's something more that NCsoft doesn't want people to know.
Shooting in the pure dark here but would anyone happen to know any of these investor groups?
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Would we offer the use of ECHO, SWC-Earth, as the setting for an MMO? In a heartbeat. I'd probably have to have some long talks with Russ about how it would be important to the four of us to allow the licensing of the property for a mere token, but I think I could talk him around to it as a great publicity venue. And we'd obviously have to change the name: maybe to ECHO Earth or something like that.
Plan Z discussions just one section down.
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Plan Z discussions just one section down.
Staying out of Plan Z. Don't know enough to offer anything constructive and don't want people to think I'm just there to shill my product.
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Staying out of Plan Z. Don't know enough to offer anything constructive and don't want people to think I'm just there to shill my product.
A shame, since your input in the lore would be invaluable. That said, I can understand your reasons, and don't think less of you for it. :)
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I'm going to have to do a lot of reading down there to determine what I even think of Plan Z at the moment, and whether or not I feel it's heading in the right direction.
But I've been hesitant to even peek in there because I don't want it to take away my focus from saving the game that actually exists right now. And at the moment, feel like I still have no idea what the "next move" should be.
And VV, I highly doubt that anyone would accuse you of doing any of this just to be opportunistic.
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A shame, since your input in the lore would be invaluable. That said, I can understand your reasons, and don't think less of you for it. :)
Checked out the threads four weeks ago, offered my assistance, no one seemed interested and there were already a couple people with some fixed ideas and plans that seemed chiseled in stone. I don't butt into the middle of someone else's book and presume to tell them how to write it, unless they come and ask me for help.
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I'm pretty sure I haven't posted on here before. Mainly because, like others have said, I didn't really have the words to say what other people have already said better. I've been a player of CoH for almost 6 years, and I honestly didn't expect it to ever end this way. I was demoralized like a lot of people. I wrote the following to my blog shortly after the shutdown announcement to sum up how I felt.
http://deck72.wordpress.com/2012/09/04/death-of-a-hero/
I signed the petition, wrote my letters, sent my email, spread the word, have tried to keep the spirits up of my friends who also play , and assure them that not all hope was lost. I was at the Unity Rally (AP8, with a bunch of my sg) and tried to keep getting the word out since. I'm not rich or famous, so I cant help that way. I'm not a programmer, so I can't help that way, So I've shown my support as best as I could. I've known in my heart from the start, that NCsoft would most likely never reverse their decision to keep the game open, but I've held out hope that it could be sold to someone else.
Then I read yesterdays announcement, and the only thing that was going through my mind was.. "Do you REALLY think we're all this ff'ing stupid?" Really NCsoft? Your face-saving isn't working. Save your false platitudes for someone who might believe them, because this guy doesn't. I've had a bit of anger over all this simmering since the initial shutdown announcement, but I've kept it in check, but after reading this.... I'm PISSED.
NCsoft, you haven't calmed my spirit, made me feel better about your decision, nor are you getting me to back off. All you have done, is ensure that I'm going to fight with all I have even harder now. Congratulations, you are my new mission in life.
And let me just say also, to TonyV, Mercedes, and all the others who have given so much to the effort, from the bottom of my heart, THANK YOU, for everything you have done. You are MY Heroes.
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Here are my thoughts on negotiations to sell CoH were exhausted:
Potential Buyer: Can we buy CoH from you?
NCSoft: No
Other Potential Buyer: Hey, I'd like to buy CoH!
NCSoft: No
Still Other Potential Buyer: We would like to bu...
NCSoft: No
NCSoft: Man, this stupid phone keeps ringing. I'm exhausted!
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I have immense respect for TonyV and all the other people who have put so much effort into the plan to in some way save City of Heroes. But (you could hear that coming I guess) I for one have given up, I don't see either the IP or the game being saved.
I guess you missed my earlier post. :) But in case you didn't, I'll add another quotation: Churchill, deciding on whether to negotiate with Hitler in the summer of 1940.
"It was idle to think that, if we tried to make peace now, we should get better terms than if we fought it out. . . . We should become a slave state . . . . And where should we be at the end of all that? . . . If this long island story of ours is to end at last, let it end only when each one of us lies choking in his own blood upon the ground."
His answer is my answer.
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Really really would like to hear from the devs on this one.. whether directly or through " channels ". Its a lot to expect the community to keep fighting and fighting with little input from TSFKAP.
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Shooting in the pure dark here but would anyone happen to know any of these investor groups?
If anybody did, it is not unlikely that they would be not at liberty to say.
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Really really would like to hear from the devs on this one.. whether directly or through " channels ". Its a lot to expect the community to keep fighting and fighting with little input from TSFKAP.
Kinda hard to do since they are under contract obligations not to say anything now.
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Really really would like to hear from the devs on this one.. whether directly or through " channels ". Its a lot to expect the community to keep fighting and fighting with little input from TSFKAP.
You won't, because they can't respond.
I don't know if you have ever seen or been asked to sign an NDA. In the case of game-designers and the programmers who work on games, I can short form it to this: "you will not, ever, on pain of being sued, divulge anything about the projects you are working on, the details of what you are working on, or anything you know about the workings of this company."
In the short run, everyone at Paragon risks every bit of his or her severance package, and probably his or her unemployment check, not to mention future employment at another corporation, by saying anything other than what NCSoft wants him or her to say. And I firmly believe that Zwill was figuratively shot in front of the remaining employees for encouraging us as much as he did, just to drive that home.
Would you risk that, with a mortgage to pay, family to feed, bills to cover?
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Kinda hard to do since they are under contract obligations not to say anything now.
yeah and information NEVER gets leaked out through sources" ever ??
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Great, now we have sites reporting that CoH is dead in the water now from just that announcement.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/119921-NCSoft-City-of-Heroes-Cant-Be-Saved (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/119921-NCSoft-City-of-Heroes-Cant-Be-Saved)
And I can't even try to correct anything due to Facebook not cooperating with the log in process. :(
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You won't, because they can't respond.
I don't know if you have ever seen or been asked to sign an NDA. In the case of game-designers and the programmers who work on games, I can short form it to this: "you will not, ever, on pain of being sued, divulge anything about the projects you are working on, the details of what you are working on, or anything you know about the workings of this company."
In the short run, everyone at Paragon risks every bit of his or her severance package, and probably his or her unemployment check, not to mention future employment at another corporation, by saying anything other than what NCSoft wants him or her to say. And I firmly believe that Zwill was figuratively shot in front of the remaining employees for encouraging us as much as he did, just to drive that home.
Would you risk that, with a mortgage to pay, family to feed, bills to cover?
Yes I have had to sign NDA's. The industry I am in and the position I am in I often see some stuff 6-10 months before it comes to market and I have to sign NDA's before I even get into the room.. and STILL information gets out.....
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Yes I have had to sign NDA's. The industry I am in and the position I am in I often see some stuff 6-10 months before it comes to market and I have to sign NDA's before I even get into the room.. and STILL information gets out.....
I'll just repeat what I said. Would you, could you, look your family in the face and risk losing your severance package and unemployment to "leak" information about this?
Maybe I am a coward, so be it. I wouldn't.
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Checked out the threads four weeks ago, offered my assistance, no one seemed interested and there were already a couple people with some fixed ideas and plans that seemed chiseled in stone. I don't butt into the middle of someone else's book and presume to tell them how to write it, unless they come and ask me for help.
I also fully respect this decision.
EDIT: On the subject of NDAs, can Paragon employees (who have already been fired) refuse to say anything, even if NCSoft tells them to say something, or are they required to be sell their PR-related selves into, well, slavery?
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And again I will say that information gets leaked all the time through " sources ".. thats all Im saying..
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And again I will say that information gets leaked all the time through " sources ".. thats all Im saying..
Yes, but then without confirmation, all we can do is theorize on whether or not the info is valid, or if some jerk just decided it'd be funny to spread a rumor.
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I'll just repeat what I said. Would you, could you, look your family in the face and risk losing your severance package and unemployment to "leak" information about this?
Maybe I am a coward, so be it. I wouldn't.
Extending what VV said, here's the thing about NDA's: If you violate one, you put EVERYTHING on the line. Not just your job, or your salary. The company who asked you to sign it can sue you, and take all your savings, and your HOUSE. That's how much damages they've been given the right to ask for in court.
Not only that, but once you've broken an NDA, no other company who makes employees sign one will ever hire you. Work in the software, computer, or game industry? Well, not anymore. So one of the Paragon people leaking information to us could be devastating to their future career.
The kind of bright side though is that if you're really careful, and you ask for something specific that wouldn't be covered by the NDA, they might be ok with telling you. But they wouldn't tell a wider audience, because that too would put their job at risk, NDA aside.
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Yes, but then without confirmation, all we can do is theorize on whether or not the info is valid, or if some jerk just decided it'd be funny to spread a rumor.
This I can understand completely..
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So I have spent a lot of time reading about City of Heroes getting shut down and while I dont play the game anymore I am probably willing to help if I can.
I don't know if Tony can talk about it, but honestly what kind of monetary amount are we talking about raising to try and buy the game? If you guys start some kind of fund raising you definitely have my support. I mean if we have 20,000~ supporters and everyone throws in ~$200 that's $4 million USD right there. With that kind of money we could possibly find an investor that could back us. I can only guess that we are going to need 5 million plus to buy the game tech and IP rights. I also work in the IT field so maybe I could work something out with some of the datacenters I work with for hosting the game servers?
Also, (and this is going on a little off topic side rant...) while reading through this thread I couldn't help but notice you guys mention that Victoria Victrix is Mercedes Lackey? OMG. Seriously?
I just have to say that your books kept me sane through 2 deployments in Iraq. Not to be a gushing fan or anything but I have named a character in every MMO I have ever played "Kerowyn". Wow, I just think it's incredible to know that we have someone like you supporting this movement.
Thank you for making 2 years of hell not seem so bad when I could go back to my rack and escape to a fantasy world.
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The kind of bright side though is that if you're really careful, and you ask for something specific that wouldn't be covered by the NDA, they might be ok with telling you. But they wouldn't tell a wider audience, because that too would put their job at risk, NDA aside.
I wouldn't risk it unless it was crystal clear, and perhaps not even then. Even if you're correct that the info you divulge isn't covered, if there's even a question about it you could get sued. And even if you win the suit, the attorneys' fees and the cloud over your head could be very damaging to your finances and career.
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not to mention the damage of being known as the guy/gal that may have or may have not broken a NDA contract in the respective job field.
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We dont even know if they actually want to sell the IP or are even being reasonable in the asking price.
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I wouldn't risk it unless it was crystal clear, and perhaps not even then. Even if you're correct that the info you divulge isn't covered, if there's even a question about it you could get sued. And even if you win the suit, the attorneys' fees and the cloud over your head could be very damaging to your finances and career.
Absolutely. Specifically, I meant questions like "who was your contact within the company" or "what's your boss' name and how can I contact him". Posting that publicly will get you fired, but privately you can probably get away with that.
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Pardon me for previously being silent in the shadows (Stalker by nature, I suppose), but it seems to me that with regards to NCSoft's announcement, the very first thing that needs to be done is that we go en masse to every game and news site that is proclaiming this message as the end. We need to find each one of these articles, and flood the comments with our response. If we are going to maintain the momentum and public will necessary to effect any change, we need to immediately make it abundantly clear that this is far from over. The media has begun sounding a death knell; we need to make everyone understand that it is not ours, or those of lesser resolve will give up thinking that they have already lost, and we will lose the support we need to make a voice loud enough to be heard.
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Typical. NCSoft is trying to save face with the public with this announcement, with the intention of going on with their plans. No potential buyers? Wasn't there a person on these forums who tried to contact NCSoft with the intention of buying?
Let's face it... this is the company's MO. It doesn't matter what they say because they are not getting another dime out of me. They better hope the GW2 community doesn't lose interest in it because if people start leaving, as far as I'm concerned NCSoft is done.
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Hello, everyone.
First, I want to say thank you to TonyV and all the wonderful volunteers for the great effort they have been putting in.
I've been following much of the activity here with interest. I remain hopeful that CoH will be saved somehow. I think each step must be taken in its turn, and we will see what happens.
I was just in Paragon rescuing a hapless citizen from the clutches of evil, and just prior to his departure from captivity he says: "Preston Ramone: Nothing will keep me from rebuilding this city!"
I had to smile, and think to myself, "Well said!"
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Staying out of Plan Z. Don't know enough to offer anything constructive and don't want people to think I'm just there to shill my product.
You could be useful to help write up some the fine detailed lore. Wink. Wink. And then wink.
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Checked out the threads four weeks ago, offered my assistance, no one seemed interested and there were already a couple people with some fixed ideas and plans that seemed chiseled in stone. I don't butt into the middle of someone else's book and presume to tell them how to write it, unless they come and ask me for help.
Kinda why I'm hesitant to put anything forward. I have a rockin' idea but it's kinda all...locked. Together. Which doesn't do well if everybody already has ideas on how stuff woks. :-/
Okay, last post on this. *stops derailing the thread*
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I think by page 2, this thread was more about us all rallying and keeping our spirits up.
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I think by page 2, this thread was more about us all rallying and keeping our spirits up.
I thought that was Tony's point in the first place?
:P
Either way. Rally on!
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Extending what VV said, here's the thing about NDA's: If you violate one, you put EVERYTHING on the line. Not just your job, or your salary. The company who asked you to sign it can sue you, and take all your savings, and your HOUSE. That's how much damages they've been given the right to ask for in court.
Not only that, but once you've broken an NDA, no other company who makes employees sign one will ever hire you. Work in the software, computer, or game industry? Well, not anymore. So one of the Paragon people leaking information to us could be devastating to their future career.
The kind of bright side though is that if you're really careful, and you ask for something specific that wouldn't be covered by the NDA, they might be ok with telling you. But they wouldn't tell a wider audience, because that too would put their job at risk, NDA aside.
This.
If you have a wife and/or kids, your obligations are to THEM. BEFORE any obligations to people bummed out and pissed off that you've been let go and the product they love is being shitcanned.
I wouldn't ask this of ANY of the Paragon Staff. Many of them have worked for years/decades to get where they are in the industry. Asking them to go back to a McJob at this point, just to satisfy my curiosity would be an utter dick move.
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So I have spent a lot of time reading about City of Heroes getting shut down and while I dont play the game anymore I am probably willing to help if I can.
I don't know if Tony can talk about it, but honestly what kind of monetary amount are we talking about raising to try and buy the game? If you guys start some kind of fund raising you definitely have my support. I mean if we have 20,000~ supporters and everyone throws in ~$200 that's $4 million USD right there. With that kind of money we could possibly find an investor that could back us. I can only guess that we are going to need 5 million plus to buy the game tech and IP rights. I also work in the IT field so maybe I could work something out with some of the datacenters I work with for hosting the game servers?
Also, (and this is going on a little off topic side rant...) while reading through this thread I couldn't help but notice you guys mention that Victoria Victrix is Mercedes Lackey? OMG. Seriously?
I just have to say that your books kept me sane through 2 deployments in Iraq. Not to be a gushing fan or anything but I have named a character in every MMO I have ever played "Kerowyn". Wow, I just think it's incredible to know that we have someone like you supporting this movement.
Thank you for making 2 years of hell not seem so bad when I could go back to my rack and escape to a fantasy world.
Okay. The problem isn't getting the money together. That's pretty much been a non-issue.
The problem is that NCSoft wasn't actually in these talks in good faith. They were basically stringing people along and wasting everyone's time.
They've pretty much shown that they're completely uninterested in actually selling the project to a group of people who have the experience, in-depth knowledge of the product, and financial backing to actually make a go of it.
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Let me make something very clear here. I am not asking anyone to reveal any NC Soft secrets, the real reason for the shutdown or the details on the negotiations etc etc.
What I would like is one of those people who are the "main players" so to speak to the community that supports them and is behind them.
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Let me make something very clear here. I am not asking anyone to reveal any NC Soft secrets, the real reason for the shutdown or the details on the negotiations etc etc.
What I would like is one of those people who are the "main players" so to speak to the community that supports them and is behind them.
I'm not trying to be a dick here. How, precisely, do you propose they do so without violating their NDA insofar as NCSoft is concerned? We've had the Twitchtalks. We've had Zwill turning up in AP33 and posting on the Facebook page (and we saw how well that went for him).
You want them here posting here? To say what, exactly? Merely posting here could be deemed as violating the NDA (and it is a lead-pipe cinch someone from NCSoft is watching for exactly that). I am pretty damned sure that Melissa Bianco has been warned away from even emailing me, personally, privately; she hasn't even answered my "you doing OK" emails and that is not like her.
Look I completely understand and sympathize, but these are people with families to feed, and you are asking them to do something that would keep them from being able to do that...potentially, forever.
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I'm not trying to be a dick here. How, precisely, do you propose they do so without violating their NDA insofar as NCSoft is concerned? We've had the Twitchtalks. We've had Zwill turning up in AP33 and posting on the Facebook page (and we saw how well that went for him).
You want them here posting here? To say what, exactly? Merely posting here could be deemed as violating the NDA (and it is a lead-pipe cinch someone from NCSoft is watching for exactly that). I am pretty damned sure that Melissa Bianco has been warned away from even emailing me, personally, privately; she hasn't even answered my "you doing OK" emails and that is not like her.
Look I completely understand and sympathize, but these are people with families to feed, and you are asking them to do something that would keep them from being able to do that...potentially, forever.
Im dropping this topic.. I think Ive said enough..
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Pardon me for previously being silent in the shadows (Stalker by nature, I suppose), but it seems to me that with regards to NCSoft's announcement, the very first thing that needs to be done is that we go en masse to every game and news site that is proclaiming this message as the end. We need to find each one of these articles, and flood the comments with our response. If we are going to maintain the momentum and public will necessary to effect any change, we need to immediately make it abundantly clear that this is far from over. The media has begun sounding a death knell; we need to make everyone understand that it is not ours, or those of lesser resolve will give up thinking that they have already lost, and we will lose the support we need to make a voice loud enough to be heard.
Yes! I agree 100%! I actually started a thread with this as my main thought about our next steps.
That and, based on all the attention, activity and new members on these forums too, maybe we could (and should) shoot for pulling off another unity rally... this weekend maybe?
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Yes! I agree 100%! I actually started a thread with this as my main thought about our next steps.
That and, based on all the attention, activity and new members on these forums too, maybe we could (and should) shoot for pulling off another unity rally... this weekend maybe?
I'm up for another rally... if we plan one I will be there! There has been too much negative going on in the game channels today and yesterday and perhaps something positive to remind people that we are heroes... we fight for what is right, we do not just sit and complain and wait for the end... is exactly what we need.
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I'm not trying to be a dick here. How, precisely, do you propose they do so without violating their NDA insofar as NCSoft is concerned? We've had the Twitchtalks. We've had Zwill turning up in AP33 and posting on the Facebook page (and we saw how well that went for him).
You want them here posting here? To say what, exactly? Merely posting here could be deemed as violating the NDA (and it is a lead-pipe cinch someone from NCSoft is watching for exactly that). I am pretty damned sure that Melissa Bianco has been warned away from even emailing me, personally, privately; she hasn't even answered my "you doing OK" emails and that is not like her.
Look I completely understand and sympathize, but these are people with families to feed, and you are asking them to do something that would keep them from being able to do that...potentially, forever.
While, of course, you are right about the worth vs. the risk and I'm sure Heatstroke wouldn't ask that of any of them...
I do think there has to be some ability of people (if they are currently interested in saving the game) to talk with others that might help move our mutual goals forward.
While that can happen behind closed doors with people, there is one aspect that makes this troubling... and that is, what if we legitimately could pull together resources as a community and pool them with the Paragon Studios representatives?
I mean, obviously, I am leaping to great hypothetical scenarios here, but it's just something that I think a lot of people in the community wish could be answered more transparently and I imagine that is where Heatstroke is coming from.
I imagine a lot of people were under the impression that, while negotiations are going on, okay, they're talking, let's wait it out and hope it goes well.
Now we get NCSoft's refusal and we're completely in the dark as to what the people on our side of those talks think, feel, want, etc.
I know I'm basically preaching to the choir here, hehe, but it just seems like the motivating factor to this topic.
So, I'm just trying to help a little by pointing out our shared interest in getting such information.
While it has always been a longshot, a user/owned/partnership type scenario is a realistic option (if we had any inkling as to the realities of asking prices and such and if we had some support from Paragon Studios people). I don't say that in a calling out manner at all (I hope it doesn't read that way). I just mean... if we can't ever hear anything or talk or combine with them, then that option is out the window. And I'd hate to think that whatever NDA NCSoft can put in place would be so restrictive to prevent such potential for our parts in this.
I'm curious to look up the Green Bay Packers ownership situation, as I had forgotten, until just the other day, that they are a team in the NFL that is actually publicly owned. Not sure if we could learn anything from how that came to be and all, but it could be interesting.
Did I just ramble or post a long coherent reply? Not sure! :o
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I don't know if anyone else has brought this up tony, but I for one would be interested in you attempting the following idea. Most of us are and were avid players of coh/cov. We kept our subscriptions current up until ncsoft stopped that and refunded our money. Why don't you set up an account and let us donate our subscription money to you? If enough people do this who are loyal to the game, It just might be enough for you to purchase the game from ncsoft. I don't know if this is possible but I for one am willing to try.
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oops should have read thru the previous thread. Still start it up and lets see how much we can offer them. I will bet it will be an impressive amount.
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Save City of Heroes
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Save City of Heroes
Welcome aboard my friend :)
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The messed up thing about this is, if there is an NDA preventing the devs from talking to anyone, then how in the heck are they supposed to gather more investors? And how are investors supposed to know if there's a point in bothering, if nobody knows what the selling price is?
Sounds like NC is telling them to make bricks without straw, as it were.
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The messed up thing about this is, if there is an NDA preventing the devs from talking to anyone, then how in the heck are they supposed to gather more investors? And now are investors supposed to know if there's a point in bothering, if nobody knows what the selling price is?
Sounds like NC is telling them to make bricks without straw, as it were.
It's a more intricate and less subtle version of the runaround they gave us with negotiations in the first place. "Shut up, the grown-ups are talking" has turned into "Go away, no one wants to buy.... NO MATTER WHAT. EVER....."
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The messed up thing about this is, if there is an NDA preventing the devs from talking to anyone, then how in the heck are they supposed to gather more investors? And how are investors supposed to know if there's a point in bothering, if nobody knows what the selling price is?
Sounds like NC is telling them to make bricks without straw, as it were.
I read an interesting article on this a while back... let's see...
Why a Venture Capitalist will take a lighter to your NDA (http://startuplawyer.com/venture-capital/why-a-vc-will-take-a-lighter-to-your-nda)
Anyway, NDAs can sometimes be a dance where you have a series before one is willing to admit that they don't already know what they're agreeing not to disclose.
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On Twitch TV yesterday Matt said they weren't under NDAs, but that they had contracts that hadn't expired yet, I think?
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On Twitch TV yesterday Matt said they weren't under NDAs, but that they had contracts that hadn't expired yet, I think?
I believe due to state law and the abrupt closure everyone should be under contract until Oct 31st. The only people likely under NDAs would be those involved in any negotiations. And there's no knowing how restrictive the NDAs might be, or even if they exist, as the negotiations may have simply been treated as internal discussion with people still under contract (and therefore the contract's restriction would apply).
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On Twitch TV yesterday Matt said they weren't under NDAs, but that they had contracts that hadn't expired yet, I think?
This is correct. That is indeed what Matt said in the chat yesterday. There are presumably provisions in their contract that prevent them from saying anything, but like TonyV said, come November 1st, we're more likely (not guaranteed, mind you) to start hearing things than we have to this point.
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Having read the "Press Release" from NCSoft - and had a chance to calm down and digest, and read through some of the thoughts on here, it seems to me that there are a couple of angles we can attack NCSoft with quite legitimately.
Firstly - their complete lack of communication with their market other than effectively two statements: a) we're closing a successful game and b) we're still closing this successful game, go fuck yourselves. No real press, just a poorly worded statement to say they don't care about their customers.
Secondly they are sitting on top of a massive PR disaster if we can get that word out to their shareholders, to the wider non-game press. If their shareholders start to lose confidence in the board of NCSoft there could be blood on the carpet within hours. NCSoft almost certainly don't care too much about their customers - but they do care about their shareholders - so if we can make enough stink...
Could it be they are on the ropes already? I'm not sure I buy into the the "them and us" cultural differences too much. They've been trading in the West a long time and know by now what works and what doesn't - and it's demonstrable that once NCSoft took over the reins of CoH it got much better. So to say "they don't understand that" is to seriously underestimate them. But maybe they felt that running Paragon was too much work. I suspect they took some earbending from Nexxon too. Their share acquisition and this move seem remarkably close to be coincidental. But, if the PR is too bad, maybe they can say "Nexxon made us do it" and reverse their decision or do an honourable get out.
Ok I wrote this last thing last night in the office, then took a call so had to drop it and run so these thoughts are less refined than some I've posted subsequent but might be worth thinking about.
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On Twitch TV yesterday Matt said they weren't under NDAs, but that they had contracts that hadn't expired yet, I think?
He hung around in chat for a while after the stream ended and answered that a bit better. They're not actually under NDAs, as much as regular working contracts that just don't expire. For example back in 2001 I started as a telemarketer and I had to sign an NDA since I had access to things like social security and credit card numbers. I was only there for two years but that NDA still hasn't expired, and it never will. Basically in some jobs there are just certain things you're never supposed to talk about.
He mentioned a possibility for November 1st as well. Under California's laws NCsoft had to give the studio 60 days notice of their jobs ending, so technically their last day as NCsoft employees is October 31st. As I understood it, anything Matt or any of the others create until then would still be property of NCsoft, but if he waits until Nov 1 to start something he would retain rights to it himself. The reason he mentioned that was, he's thinking of starting up a project of his own if the job search doesn't show results by then. But since he would obviously want to retain the rights to it, he's not going anywhere near such an idea until that 60 day notice runs out and he's officially no longer an NCsoft employee. Although of course if a good job comes up first, well hey, man's gotta eat.
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Secondly they are sitting on top of a massive PR disaster if we can get that word out to their shareholders, to the wider non-game press. If their shareholders start to lose confidence in the board of NCSoft there could be blood on the carpet within hours. NCSoft almost certainly don't care too much about their customers - but they do care about their shareholders - so if we can make enough stink...
This is a really good point. I think one of the things NCsoft has going for them in their investors in Korea probably don't know about the negative flack they're getting in America. If they found out.....
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Okay, yeah.. Posi's explanation makes sense. I'm personally under severe regulations that if I break any of a number of them I don't just lose my job and get fined...
I go to jail.
So, with *that* in mind I will continue my stance of letting the Devs be.
But I'm glad to see a few popping up here. :)
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I have never heard of an employment agreement or non-compete agreement between an employer and an employee with an unlimited term. 1, 2, or 3 years is the usual arrangment.
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I have never heard of an employment agreement or non-compete agreement between an employer and an employee with an unlimited term. 1, 2, or 3 years is the usual arrangment.
Oh, they exist. The ones I'm aware of generally aren't commercial in nature, though.
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A non-compete is different from an NDA. I had to sign a non-compete when I was working for a company that had seen a few key employees defect to a competitor about a year before I started. The actual document would not have held up in court, for various reasons, but that's not relevant here. What is relevant here is that a non-compete would be almost unenforceable in this case because, in many cases, they can't reasonably do anything else that would maintain their livelihoods.
A non-compete says that you cannot go work for someone who is a direct competitor of your employer, to over-simplify it. But, I'm not a lawyer.
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but I'm just the squishy fender.
Yes, but not a bad scrapper either.
DJ Steel...
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Been busy with mid-terms the last week or so, not the ideal news to come back to. Last I checked, the forum for Sunset is a mess. Plenty of great ideas, but with no structure, I fear that all the imagination is going to go to waste. It only takes so long before an artist becomes jaded.
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Yes, but not a bad scrapper either.
DJ Steel...
Welcome to the party, Steel. :)
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Well, I certainly hope that if Posi starts a project, he lets us know... I expect he'll have a great deal of support (I know I'd likely be interested to assist financially on some level.)
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Well, I certainly hope that if Posi starts a project, he lets us know... I expect he'll have a great deal of support (I know I'd likely be interested to assist financially on some level.)
Mhm, hopefully he'll go for some kind of Kickstarter giving us all the opportunity to help out.
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Good job Tony. You are always able to take things that I'm thinking and putting them into more organized thoughts and put them on paper.
Now, the reason for my post, and forgive me if this has been mentioned as I have not seen it. Just to get a better perspective of the relationship between Nexon & NCSoft I did a search. And lo & behold I found a bunch of reports regarding Nexon & NCSoft "rumored" attempt to purchase Valve. Now, according to the reports, Nexon isn't saying anything and NCSoft, in their usual noncommittal way, said there was no truth to it. These reports are dated September 26, 2012 or thereabout. Sooooo, if they were entertaining the idea that they would offer to purchase Valve, which is an impossibility given statements made by Gabe, why would they not be willing to sell CoH to raise more capital?
And on that note, I wonder... has anyone approached Valve to possibly offer to purchase CoH? Just a thought.
Rock on Heroes!!
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I think several people have contacted Valve, or maybe they were just in favor of doing so... >.>
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I think several people have contacted Valve, or maybe they were just in favor of doing so... >.>
I have, nothing back...i was disapointed. Aeria contacted right back and blizzard said post in their forums, they read their forums like paragon did.
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I have, nothing back...i was disapointed. Aeria contacted right back and blizzard said post in their forums, they read their forums like paragon did.
Ah, thanks Moon!
I guess they either weren't interested or they didn't have a reply ready (or didn't want to share their plans with the general public) =/
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It does make me wonder though about the meeting between Nexon & NCSoft with Valve, if indeed it did happen. Could there have been talks of Valve purchasing CoH and they could not reach an agreement on the price? Seeing how NCSoft published their PR BS statement shortly thereafter, could that have been one of the negotiations that wasn't successful?
Way too many questions about everything, which just fuels speculation and rumors, and no real answers.
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I have never heard of an employment agreement or non-compete agreement between an employer and an employee with an unlimited term. 1, 2, or 3 years is the usual arrangment.
The agreements expire, but specific obligations within them can last forever. Confidentiality clauses, for example, can be permanent and binding.
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From Posi's comments in during the chat yesterday (after Hit Streak signed off of 45 minutes of "I can't answer that"), it sounds as if the non-compete is only for the duration of his severance period. I believe he said that it was November 1st, he'd be free to do his own thing without being encumbered by NCSoft.
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Think I'll go set Posi and WW to send text alerts on Twitter... 8)
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From Posi's comments in during the chat yesterday (after Hit Streak signed off of 45 minutes of "I can't answer that"), it sounds as if the non-compete is only for the duration of his severance period. I believe he said that it was November 1st, he'd be free to do his own thing without being encumbered by NCSoft.
I don't recall anything about a non-compete clause being mentioned. As an NCSoft employee, its probably the case Matt has a clause in his employment contract that any intellectual property he creates while an employee of NCSoft is defacto work for hire product and the property of NCSoft.
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Non-competes aren't even legal in California. Not that I wouldn't put it past certain companies to try anyway.
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I don't recall anything about a non-compete clause being mentioned. As an NCSoft employee, its probably the case Matt has a clause in his employment contract that any intellectual property he creates while an employee of NCSoft is defacto work for hire product and the property of NCSoft.
That I believe would definitely be the case. I would be utterly shocked if I dont see Posi, WW and Clayton hit the ground running with something..
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NDAs can be a wicked double-edged sword... as in, they can cut you from both sides. :)
VV, TheManga, et al are NOT kidding about the possible repercussions for any Paragon employees (present or recent past) if they violated their NDA or contract terms. Perhaps details will trickle out sometime down the road, but I would not expect anything from them at this time.
Details also can come to light via those in the media (including web formats) through deductive reasoning after analyzing the available pieces of the puzzle. They are not always correct, but they *can* stumble into nuggets of truth by hard work (or luck). Sometimes these things get employees into trouble because it has the appearance of being from a leak, when in fact, it was not.
Back on topic...
I eagerly await news of a current battle plan, as it were. What can all of us out here do in a cohesive fashion? I want to take some form of action, but it needs to be pretty much unilateral and it should not come from a place of anger, but strategy.
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The words of a very wise ancient Greek came to my mind....
It is more important to know where you are going than to get there quickly.
Do not mistake activity for achievement.
Remember that there is nothing stable in human affairs, therefore avoid
undue elation in prosperity, or undue depression in adversity.
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It does make me wonder though about the meeting between Nexon & NCSoft with Valve, if indeed it did happen. Could there have been talks of Valve purchasing CoH and they could not reach an agreement on the price? Seeing how NCSoft published their PR BS statement shortly thereafter, could that have been one of the negotiations that wasn't successful?
Way too many questions about everything, which just fuels speculation and rumors, and no real answers.
It's certainly a thought that's crossed my mind, but as I understand it, this alleged meeting of corporate gaming giants took place at Nexon's Developer Conference in Hawaii. Not at a private meeting, or at an undisclosed hush-hush location...a Developer Conference. Which leads me to conclude that IF this meeting took place (and there's still no hard evidence it even did really), it was more likely to be about Development overlaps than mega corporate buyouts.
If I had to guess, I'd say Valve were possibly talking to Nexon about divergent technologies in gaming, i.e. how Valve recently launched their "bring Steam into the living room" interface, and how Nexon is heading more towards casual and mobile games than PC.
The media hysteria over "OMG! NCS-Nexon want to buy Valve!!" no doubt arose from the fact NCSoft acquired Ntreev (a Korean casual gaming company) earlier this year, and Nexon in turn acquired 15% of NCSoft stock, so if NCS-Nexon meet with anyone in the game biz, someone somewhere is going to think "OMG! Scoop! I sense a buyout!"
But think about it - software developers meeting at a conference hosted by one of those developers? Well, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar", as the saying goes ;)
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Been busy with mid-terms the last week or so, not the ideal news to come back to. Last I checked, the forum for Sunset is a mess. Plenty of great ideas, but with no structure, I fear that all the imagination is going to go to waste. It only takes so long before an artist becomes jaded.
QFT
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The structure's being worked on. Brainstorming tends to get messy. I mean, you get exploding heads everywhere and bang! There you go, zombie invasion. ;)
More seriously, we're considering ourselves the very last ditch effort that doesn't want to have to be implemented, so we're taking things at a slowish pace. MMO building is a long-term thing. Chaotic brainstorming has a place, but we're definitely going to need more structure than we currently have.
But let's not focus on Plan Z over here. Let's focus on improved efforts to get NCSoft back to the negotiation table and how we can leverage our resources into saving COH.
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What's wrong with zombie invasions? *directs his minions to set up a buffet table* ...no! For the last time, no brains. Meatloaf!
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I gotta tell ya, folks, this statement by NCsoft has made me go from mailing three sets of two letters a week to Korea and Seattle to mailing two sets of five letters and a mask-and-cape on Friday.
If their attitude is "tough", mine is becoming "get tougher", and I wonder if it isn't time to try and organize a hobby-wide boycott of NCsoft.
I know lots of people love Guild Wars, and as I remember from Guild wars I (which I tried) it was a pay for it once, buy expansions market model, so I guess if they have your money it's too late to boycott.
But three or four print magazines and that many major online reviewers refusing to cover NCsoft products at all would have to make an impression, wouldn't it?
I have never been the type to give up hope, but the downside of that is that as my hope and reason fade, I tend to get angry and belligerent.
I guess what I am looking for here is someone to join me on the barricades or talk me down off them...
DASHER
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Greetings, Dasher. Stick around, take a look at the various threads. There's one with "NUTS!" in the title that is doing a very loud attention-getting move, and there's a Media Day thread as well, wherein we're organizing an online day for having guest players from various media outlets - any who will come - come in and get a guided tour of CoH and an online meet-and-greet with the community.
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Wellcome to the barricades, Dasher. I managed to wedge a couple nice comfy chairs up here with two ballistic ex-police shields hand.
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Welcome to Fort Titan, Dasher. ;)
Here we give out hugs, make videos and songs, we organize, we rage, we cry, we scream...and we keep fighting, and thinking, and trying to understand.
There are inspirational videos, songs, poems, letters, testimonials...and a lot of people conribuing whereever and whatever we can. You also may wish to pick up the wonderful books by Mercedes Lackey...I'll let you discover why for yourself ;)
Speaking of barricades...Les Miserables anyone...Do you Hear The People Sing, Little people, I dreamed a dream, perhaps even red and black...I wish NcSoft could understand Stars...for they are Javert and we are John Valjean and Fantine, and Little Cossette, and Gavroche...and I do not want to sing empty chairs at empty tables like poor marius with my entire community gone.
Welcome to the lifeboat and battle HQ all wrapped into one dasher...you are among friends, you are among heroes and very well behaved villains ;)
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Welcome to Fort Titan, Dasher. ;)
Here we give out hugs, make videos and songs, we organize, we rage, we cry, we scream...and we keep fighting, and thinking, and trying to understand.
There are inspirational videos, songs, poems, letters, testimonials...and a lot of people conribuing whereever and whatever we can. You also may wish to pick up the wonderful books by Mercedes Lackey...I'll let you discover why for yourself ;)
Speaking of barricades...Les Miserables anyone...Do you Hear The People Sing, Little people, I dreamed a dream, perhaps even red and black...I wish NcSoft could understand Stars...for they are Javert and we are John Valjean and Fantine, and Little Cossette, and Gavroche...and I do not want to sing empty chairs at empty tables like poor marius with my entire community gone.
Welcome to the lifeboat and battle HQ all wrapped into one dasher...you are among friends, you are among heroes and very well behaved villains ;)
...
/me starts petition to rename Fort Trident to Fort Titan.
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...
/me starts petition to rename Fort Trident to Fort Titan.
Quantum Hero seconds the petition since that was exactly wha I was thinking of you mind controller you...lol
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Quantum Hero seconds the petition since that was exactly wha I was thinking of you mind controller you...lol
Maybe "Fort Titan" would be a great name for a starting area in Plan Z
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Maybe "Fort Titan" would be a great name for a starting area in Plan Z
Heck, make TR an inspiration. A full set of enemies assaulting a base, a series of heroes occasionally taking part in defending - the whole thing could be properly heroic, and a great inspirational opening.
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Gotta have a torch somewhere. A really big one, like our own equivalent of the Statue of Liberty. With an archetypical backstory of a dark hour during a siege, where gutsy fighters struggled to keep it burning even as the bullets were flying.
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Gotta have a torch somewhere. A really big one, like our own equivalent of the Statue of Liberty. With an archetypical backstory of a dark hour during a siege, where gutsy fighters struggled to keep it burning even as the bullets were flying.
You mean like having a group of people hop onto a statue and coordinate their bodies so that their torches are on a hand of the statue? For example, Emperor Cole's statue in Nova Praetoria, perhaps?
The great act of defiance setting is a great idea though, especially if you see heroes trickling in from various angles to help reinforce the burning beacon, even though they're exhausted, wounded, battered, and/or dying. Fighting with every ounce of their being for an ideal, or an symbol that they hold dear. I'd give you +1 reputation for coming up with this idea if I could, Tim.
*queues Klendathu Drop theme as he logs back into CoH*
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You mean like having a group of people hop onto a statue and coordinate their bodies so that their torches are on a hand of the statue? For example, Emperor Cole's statue in Nova Praetoria, perhaps?
The great act of defiance setting is a great idea though, especially if you see heroes trickling in from various angles to help reinforce the burning beacon, even though they're exhausted, wounded, battered, and/or dying. Fighting with every ounce of their being for an ideal, or an symbol that they hold dear. I'd give you +1 reputation for coming up with this idea if I could, Tim.
*queues Klendathu Drop theme as he logs back into CoH*
Heh, TY. And yeah. That kind of Iwo Jima money shot (and yes I know the full story behind that) has always been very moving to me. Somehow the spirit of the AP33 story needs to make it into whatever form the future CoH takes, whether it be a reactivation, sequel, spiritual successor, etc. If the worst happens, when we're sitting in the eye of the hurricane on Dec 1, I'll start brainstorming it.
Though I was never big into war films when I was a kid, they ran one at my school once for some educational purpose or another. Something that took place in the 1800's. And there was this big talk between a commander and a couple other soldiers who were put into a death queue for carrying the flag (each taking the place of another in the event the flag bearer was gunned down). And one of the guys was miffed about it because he wanted to be doing the shooting. During the fight, the flag bearer was killed, the next guy in line threw down his gun during the charge, ran over, picked it up, and rushed straight at the enemy with it. I don't remember any other thing about the film, but that scene stuck with me.
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That sounds like Glory.
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Heh, TY. And yeah. That kind of Iwo Jima money shot (and yes I know the full story behind that) has always been very moving to me. Somehow the spirit of the AP33 story needs to make it into whatever form the future CoH takes, whether it be a reactivation, sequel, spiritual successor, etc. If the worst happens, when we're sitting in the eye of the hurricane on Dec 1, I'll start brainstorming it.
Yeah, I think AP33 will always have a special meaning to our community, it'd be nice tosee a tribute to it in whatever the future brings.
Maybe the name of a small band of Freedom Fighters, some underground resistance, or something :P
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The thing that annoys me the most about the latest NCSoft missive is that I comes across as an insult to my intelligence (as if I can't read between the lines).
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I'm going to make a longer post later, but for now, this will suffice:
I'm a Browncoat. We were told nothing would come of our frustration or our efforts as fans.
We were told it was hopeless, and that we were wasting our time.
We got SERENITY.
I've read NC Soft's little "hush" letter, and here I am: And I am to misbehave.
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Yeah, I think AP33 will always have a special meaning to our community, it'd be nice tosee a tribute to it in whatever the future brings.
Maybe the name of a small band of Freedom Fighters, some underground resistance, or something :P
This is noted. IF Plan Z comes to pass (and I hope it isn't needed!), there will be references to AP33 in it.
Somewhere. Somehow.
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This is noted. IF Plan Z comes to pass (and I hope it isn't needed!), there will be references to AP33 in it.
Somewhere. Somehow.
...
Imagining a street sign saying "AP33" in a similar manner as a Route 1 sign is. 8)
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Is there an Interstate 33? If not, that could easily become the fictitious highway through the center of the city.
Edit:
(https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/titan/th_I-33.png) (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/eabrace/titan/I-33.png)
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Heheh, no, I was envisioning something a bit more prominent than an easter egg. 8)
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Heheh, no, I was envisioning something a bit more prominent than an easter egg. 8)
Can we do both? Unless we come up with something more clever to name highways after.
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How about u name a space station AP33 or maybe an military (alien} area like Area 51-Ap33
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At this point, I'm gonna have to go over future all Mercedes Lackey books with a fine-tooth comb for Titan/Plan Z/AP33 in-jokes......
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My first post on here.
I am like many others who do not want to see City of Heroes go away. The threat of such has renewed interest in the game (despite my being swamped by work at the moment) in other forms: I've found and downloaded the COH RPG Quick Start rules, pretty much everything pertaining to the COH CCG (which I've bought up some cards for and begun playing), and resumed playing with my COH/COV HeroClix with a vengeance.
But despite all those being part of COH, they are NOT COH. Nothing can replace zooming around Atlas Park on Justice with my Santa Claus themed toon named Tubbius, a level 50 plant control/empath/ice mastery/incarnate, scooping up Christmas presents and demanding costume contests of folks--usually set up with a goofy twist.
I've played the game for four years. It's been a good, clean, fun way for me and my girlfriend to bond, to have something to do together--one of a few games we can both agree on and be good at in our own ways. I've been a Mission Architect writer faithfully since that hit (and for all you PENGUIN fans, I'm slowly working on completing PENGUIN Part 4: Waddle On).
I'm no computer programmer, but I am an avid comic fan and gamer and have been both since the 80s. I'd LOVE to see this game continue, ideally, or be met with a so-called spiritual sequel, even if I don't have the technical skills to help set it all up.
That said, here's a recent blog post my girlfriend, @Austara, put up on her website.
http://glasses.withinmyworld.org/index.php/2012/10/04/5-logical-reasons-to-save-city-of-heroes/
Check it out. :)
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That's an excellent message, and the sort of thing I hope gets some more main stream attention. I can't think of a good way to work it directly into the "invite the media to play the game (http://stormlord.us/Community%20of%20Heroes%20to%20NCSoft.pdf)" press release I'm putting out tonight (for a scheduled Media Day of Oct. 20), but I think I might slip it in as a separate link on the emails and messages that I use to send out said release.
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Well although a few of the Paragon City folks have gotten jobs, for most of them it appears that the situation is pretty dire.
One of them in known in doll circles as SDink, and here is what she posted on her LJ today.
"
Just read the following on ZoZ from the Inimitable S-Dink:
It's been a really hard month for me, the Company I worked for closed it's doors with no warning to anyone, it was a very sad day and it has been really emotional for me. Being unemployed is not something I am used to and I am frightened to death.
The job market looks dismal. I need to be patient and wait for the right opportunity for me. Luckily they paid us until the end of this month and we get a decent severance so i have taken it upon myself to start up commissions again to help until I get a job. I will be collecting unemployment soon but it is not going to be enough to get me by so I need some extra cash ^_^"
http://sdink.livejournal.com/
(http://sdink.livejournal.com/)
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thats disapointing, dink was wonderful with making new costumes sets for us
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thats disapointing, dink was wonderful with making new costumes sets for us
I'm sorry to hear he's going through such tough times.
At the same time though... if Posi does start a new project in November...
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I'm sorry to hear he's going through such tough times.
At the same time though... if Posi does start a new project in November...
I am reasonably certain that Dink is a she. :)
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I am reasonably certain that Dink is a she. :)
D'oh! I actually KNEW that! The name and her Utachi profile pic threw me off again!
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I am reasonably certain that Dink is a she. :)
IIRC she's a bloke called Cheryl otherwise :)
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Is there any update on the effort to save CoX?
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We're in long haul efforts to create bad PR for NCsoft now. As has been mentioned in another thread, bad PR is EXTREMELY costly to deal with, and it's our cheapest option as well. So just keep spreading word about how bad NCSoft the mmo killer is, how they killed off a profitable game, and how anything they release could be shut down without any real warning.
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tonys "response to ncsoft" thread was probably the most recent update as to whats happening, which was posted when ncsoft gave us that BS response
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Has there been any update lately? I've been offline for a while courtesy of Sandy.
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My grandpa used to tell me a story about the time his commander ordered an update on how his soldiers were doing in the middle of a dry oasis surrounded by vicious natives wielding harpoons and grenades. I wouldn't hold my breath on most of that being true because at the time he was searching for his lost marbles without pants on and had used grape jelly as facial camouflage. He fell asleep on top of the fern pot shortly after, so I didn't get to hear the rest..