Titan Network

Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: sindyr on December 03, 2012, 04:09:34 PM

Title: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 03, 2012, 04:09:34 PM
<Not sure which forum this belongs in, so I put it here.>

The day has come and gone, and NCSoft has shut down CoX.

However, throughout the process I kept hearing about all the people who had already reverse-engineered the client and the communication protocol, and were going to now put together server software so that we could all run our own private CoX servers and keep playing the game.  Maybe we couldn't keep playing on a world-wide server with thousands of people across the globe, but at least we could keep playing with our friends.

Whatever happened to this effort?  To the best of my knowledge, all the Plan Z stuff is about making new games "in the spirit of" CoX - but whatever happened to the effort of allowing us to keep playing the *old* CoX (latest issue) privately?  After all, I still have the client software on my computers.

Was the private server idea a lot of talk - vaporware, basically?  If so, tell me now, don't keep me holding my breath.  If running CoX private servers is not to be, then regardless of Plan Z, Q, or X, CoX is fully dead.  But if we can keep playing CoX, even on private servers, then we need not let our time with CoX die.

So, which is it?  Is there a credible effort to let us run private servers, build new characters, and play this game on our own - or is that now (and perhaps always was) a pipe dream that we should let go, admitting that CoX is FULLY gone and dead?

I *really* want it to be the former - and would place a LOT of money and energy towards having the reality of working private CoX servers.  But if this is bulls**t, and it's basically not going to happen, I want to know.  Because while I may check out PlanXYZ games if and when they come out, I don't NEED PlanXYZ.  I need to go back to playing CoX.

Tony?  Others?  What's the sitch?  I can also be contacted privately via pm, via which I can supply my phone and email.  Does anyone have any *tangible* hope for me with CoX, without resorting to a PlanABC to make a brand new game?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 03, 2012, 04:56:10 PM
None working right now.
There's SEGS (formerly CoHEmu, later CoXEmu), but they only got to map loading in five or so years since they started. SEGS source code is public, tho.
There's some mention of a few members of Titan userbase working on their own, but that's all I know.
There's New City of Heroes which appears as legit as a three dollar bill.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Nafaustu on December 03, 2012, 04:56:57 PM
 A brief search of this form will show you that there was a lot of archiving done.   It will also show you that the Titan Network specifically is working within the law.   A private server would be very interesting, and i'm absolutely certain they are being worked on.   Emu's are inevitable, and they are being opening discussed as a thing that is probably happening.

However.

At no point in the historical discussion on the forum do I recall TonyV or anyone else representing the Titan Network mentioning the official intent to violate IP law and host or private server.

Perhaps someone will private message you with their private efforts that are not on a public server where NCSoft can see it, find you both, and know where send the Cease and Decist letter they would need to slightly modify from their recent Tabula Rasa squelch experiances.  :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tommy2Toes on December 03, 2012, 05:18:21 PM
The fact is, nothing exists to give you your COX fix right now.

There are several efforts underway...some with more support than others.  I think TonyV is doing a great service offering us a clearinghouse to discuss all of them.

But for now, all you have is video replay and memories.  Keep your fingers crossed that something will appear "Real Soon Now (TM)"
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Metal Mountain on December 03, 2012, 06:05:06 PM
Second me on supporting emulator efforts...

If SWG can have an emulator, why cant we?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on December 03, 2012, 06:17:30 PM
Second me on supporting emulator efforts...

If SWG can have an emulator, why cant we?

Because NCSoft shut down Tabula Rasa players' attempts at one, and there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same here. LucasArts doesn't care about the SWG emulator.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: emu265 on December 03, 2012, 11:32:25 PM
I'd very much like an emulated version, but I know that Titan Network will NOT support one without NCsoft's consent or ownership of the IP. 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 04, 2012, 12:30:43 AM
Because NCSoft shut down Tabula Rasa players' attempts at one, and there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same here. LucasArts doesn't care about the SWG emulator.

Precisely.  The difference here is huge.  NCSoft not only shut down Tabula Rasa emulators, it shut down the attempts to have emulators of Auto Assault and I think one other game it closed. 

This not only will net you a Cease and Desist letter, it can end in having your ISP ban you for life.  This might not be such a big thing if you live in a large city where you have a choice of ISPs, but if you live in a one-ISP town, that's a pretty horrific thing to face.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyImmolatasia on December 04, 2012, 12:33:48 AM
I can't convey how much that pisses me (and countless others) off. NCSoft shouldn't have the right to hold the game or IP hostage like this. Sadly, I know they can. It's disgusting.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tanglefoe on December 04, 2012, 12:54:18 AM
stuff, and...


Perhaps someone will private message you with their private efforts that are not on a public server where NCSoft can see it, find you both, and know where send the Cease and Decist letter they would need to slightly modify from their recent Tabula Rasa squelch experiances.  :)

I'd like one too :-X
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Daimyoshi on December 04, 2012, 01:05:40 AM
Because NCSoft shut down Tabula Rasa players' attempts at one, and there's no reason to think they wouldn't do the same here. LucasArts doesn't care about the SWG emulator.

this seems odd Lucas seems like the last person to be reasonable.

If some one want PM news on one may or may not be legal send me a PM.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Colette on December 04, 2012, 01:42:31 AM
"This seems odd. Lucas seems like the last person to be reasonable."

Actually, he proved to have a good sense of humor with fan-efforts like "Troopers" and memes like "Star Wars Kid." And he even tolerates the numerous fan-edits of Star Wars properties (like the superb Star Wars Revisited.) Only time will tell if Disney will be so enlightened.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on December 04, 2012, 02:05:58 AM
Lucas defended the IP until it became funny to him. :)

Also, I thought I read somewhere that, once "fail" to defend the IP, it kind of opens the door, so to speak. Not sure the SWG emulator falls under that, or it just didn't matter against the Bioware/SOE IP issue, which actually involved money.  So far, aside from some Internet celebrity, I don't know of anyone profiting from the SW IP without getting explicit permission.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on December 04, 2012, 05:42:05 AM
If the private server is based in the right country whether its legal or not wouldn't really matter. Plenty of servers out there for other games that will never get shut down because the country they are hosting the server on is outside of the US.

If you guys want this to happen then you're going to have to track down your coder friends and point them to s.e.g.s. while we work on getting Disney, plan z, or any other undisclosed plan accomplished. It's going to take great legal risk or a complete rewrite of the existing city of heroes code to bring cox back (assuming Disney or someone doesn't buy it.) Some of the swg private servers are 100% legal because of that rewrite. But a code rewrite is something that's likely going to take much longer than a server emulation.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RogerWilco on December 04, 2012, 03:19:48 PM
Perhaps someone will private message you with their private efforts that are not on a public server where NCSoft can see it, find you both, and know where send the Cease and Decist letter they would need to slightly modify from their recent Tabula Rasa squelch experiances.  :)

I'm up for being PM'd. I have various coding skills dating all the way back to MUDs and maybe even a place to run such a thing. TonyV has hinted that there are people out there working on something like this.

I didn't have time before because I was out of the country more than 6 weeks since 31/8.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Rienuaa on December 04, 2012, 03:25:42 PM
Webdev here. PM me, I may be able to help work something out. Or at least moderate some forums or make a webpage. :L
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Osborn on December 04, 2012, 04:06:51 PM
I wouldn't mind being PMed about this too, but I'm pretty much assuming that there isn't any such a thing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 06, 2012, 07:40:29 PM
No PM's so far - I thought we had lotsa peeps promising to reverse engineer the server??
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mister Bison on December 06, 2012, 08:03:02 PM
No PM's so far - I thought we had lotsa peeps promising to reverse engineer the server??
Not surprised. Realizing an emulator does take much time.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on December 06, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
Not surprised. Realizing an emulator does take much time.

This.  It's not just something you whip out over a weekend.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 06, 2012, 08:44:24 PM
I would gratefully settle for some indication that someone is actively working on it with even a vague eta...

because if I haven't heard of any, and *you* haven't heard of any, and others haven't heard of any, than maybe it just not being BUILT.

Which sucks.

<--- CoX Withdrawl.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on December 06, 2012, 09:23:01 PM
No one's heard of anything because if it is being worked on, it has to be hush hush to avoid legal action. I'm just waiting for a PM like you. If it comes, great. If not... well, we'll have to move on.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mister Bison on December 06, 2012, 09:25:12 PM
Well, if you want it built, maybe you could, you know, do it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on December 06, 2012, 09:25:26 PM
Putting myself on the list for a PM.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 06, 2012, 09:28:12 PM
Well, if you want it built, maybe you could, you know, do it.

I so would, but my talents are at cross purposes with the skill set required.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TinFoil on December 06, 2012, 09:35:39 PM
I like PMs... just saying.

I would even beta test any PMs as I have a powerful computer and lightening fast internet which could be used for tweaking.

I'm not in a rush though; I know this sort of work is extraordinary in nature.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mister Bison on December 06, 2012, 09:55:17 PM
I like PMs... just saying.

I would even beta test any PMs as I have a powerful computer and lightening fast internet which could be used for tweaking.

I'm not in a rush though; I know this sort of work is extraordinary in nature.
You've been put on the "PM sending" beta tester list, too bad you can only subscribe to one beta test :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: emu265 on December 06, 2012, 09:55:51 PM
Putting myself on the list for a PM.
This.  If it wasn't clear before.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arctic Force. on December 06, 2012, 09:59:45 PM
I would like to be on the list also. thank you
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SARobb on December 06, 2012, 10:03:00 PM
As would I. I lack the direct knowledge to assist... but if I can do anything to help let me know.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Atlantea on December 06, 2012, 11:00:41 PM
Same here. I don't have any real programming knowledge. But if there's anything I can do, ask. I still have the main City of Heroes client on my machine as well as the Test and Beta Clients. (Though I have uninstalled that wretched NCSoft Launcher. I never did want to install that in the first place!)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 07, 2012, 12:09:39 AM
 
Not surprised. Realizing an emulator does take much time.

You are asking for:

Some single person who is working in his spare time after his day job to effectively accomplish what a TEAM of people working FULL TIME did. 

You are asking for:

This single person who is working in his spare time to do in a few weeks what a TEAM of people working FULL TIME took at least a year to do.

This is the reality.  A year, if you are lucky, before you hear of something of the sort.  Even then, once and emu is in place, you have to find a host, and a LOT of content will have to be retrofitted from the stuff that had been relocated server-side (from what I gather, that would be text and mission-content).

*thus spake the former systems programmer*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 07, 2012, 12:23:58 AM
Just to be clear, *I* wasn't asking anything, apart from have the people who had been making claims before about doing it vanished into the woodwork?

And has anyone else stepped up to the plate?

Luckily, the CoH setup puts most of the oomph into their client, which we already have.  The server should be slim by comparison, I would think.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SeaLily on December 07, 2012, 12:35:43 AM
I'm honestly kind of surprised that there were no CoH private servers running before the game shut down.  Like, it's an 8 year old game.  You'd think someone would have set one up somewhere along the line on their own.  The interest must not have been there.

I know there was someone who has a VERY basic one going, elsewhere on the internet that you can find yourself, but it's the game from 2004 and you're limited to making a guy and loading into Outbreak and then logging out because the game isn't actually playable at that point.

Personally I think the reason most people make private MMO servers is so they can skip a game's grind and just play endgame raids all the time.  CoH didn't really have a grind, or even endgame raid type content, so it's not like that reasoning ever appealed to anyone.  Which is probably why nobody really got it working.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gypsea on December 07, 2012, 02:28:10 AM
Putting myself on the PM list and offering up my meager programming skills.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on December 07, 2012, 04:22:28 AM
I would gratefully settle for some indication that someone is actively working on it with even a vague eta...

It is actively being worked on.  I can't give an ETA because most of the folks working on it do have day jobs and Life Happens™.  It will likely be a while, though, so I wouldn't look for anything, not even some vague pre-alpha something, within the next month.  After that, it just depends on how much of a pain it is or isn't to implement the APIs.  I assure you, we haven't vanished into the woodwork; it's just that with the timeframe we're looking at, there aren't going to be day-by-day updates.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tivomaniac on December 07, 2012, 01:37:57 PM
I too would be very interested in being able to play so PM me if you get something going.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on December 07, 2012, 01:54:46 PM
Considering we cant even get into the CC yet, I'd imagine the vaguest concept of logging in and even jogging in place are a bit... outlandish... for at least 3-6 months (being GENEROUS).

When such a thing happens I imagine the people performing this will have plenty of betatesters - if not just eachother, because I DOUBT that anyones doing this solo.

So, good luck getting anything to work. Don't feel any pressure from me, I'll just be happy knowing someones working on this. I just hope if server emulation is achieved in any small way it gets distributed to protect from seizure or C&D.

Honestly, the more they say publiclly, like here, or to whoever wants the info, the more dangerous it becomes for them, and us.

Please, take your time, protect yourselves and the community in the process... while respecting us all for desperately wanting to beg you to go faster because we have more faith in you than we have good sense :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: chasearcanum on December 07, 2012, 02:00:13 PM
Lucas defended the IP until it became funny to him. :)

Also, I thought I read somewhere that, once "fail" to defend the IP, it kind of opens the door, so to speak. Not sure the SWG emulator falls under that, or it just didn't matter against the Bioware/SOE IP issue, which actually involved money.  So far, aside from some Internet celebrity, I don't know of anyone profiting from the SW IP without getting explicit permission.

trademarks, you have to defend, since they're supposed to serve as a brand identity. once they get "diluted" too far and become part of general use, it is no longer a valid "mark of trade".

copyright, not.  Your copyright is protected pretty much regardless of whether you forget about it or not. 

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Nafaustu on December 07, 2012, 04:43:53 PM
We should really have added that to the 'loyal customer' pitch:

Everyone who wanted to play this game stayed with the official one.   Unlike darn near every other old game, there -were- no private servers.   That's the equivalent of SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!

Heh.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: HarvesterOfEyes on December 07, 2012, 05:06:30 PM
I would just like to have "fair use" of the copyrighted material. Much like I have the unlimited right to read a book I possess. It harms the author and publisher not at all that I didn't throw the book away after they stopped printing new copies of it.

I've no plans and no intention to profit from it, I merely want to be able to play the game, even if that means in a solo-only or lan-only mode.

I haven't had the time nor resources to commit that many of the good people of this community have had in the last few months, but I've certainly reached a point of wanting to make a hobby out of cracking this nut.

...and I would very much like to be in touch with others who are like-minded.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on December 07, 2012, 05:52:56 PM
Please add me to the PM list, I would be delighted to help beta-test and my lips are sealed.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SARobb on December 07, 2012, 05:56:57 PM
Lips are sealed about what?

*innocent blink*

 ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Metal Mountain on December 07, 2012, 06:37:39 PM
Yes,

I for one welcome our new PM friendly overlords  ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: chasearcanum on December 07, 2012, 07:05:51 PM
I should add that, if there was a  PM list for such a thing, the PM'er should be careful with who they add, as NCSoft has made a concerted effort to infiltrate such organizations during their enforcement operations in the past.   Screen previous posts, learn a bit about the people.  Do they seem credible?  Add only credible sources.  Early versions of any such private server are bound to be buggy and problematic, so people that have some technical experience would probably work best until things are stable

As an example of a credible person technically-inclined person, take my account.  It's been active for a few months, posts on a wide variety of issues, etc.  I work in the tech industry and manage a team troubleshooting several hundred machines daily.  I have an established history AND some degree of tech savvy.  I'd be a good candidate for said list.  Really.  Really good.... If such a PM list exists, I should really be put on it, no other questions asked.  I'm THAT solid of a candidate- no such PM list would be complete without me.  ;) 


So, if such a PM list exists, for your own sake, make sure I'm included, ok?  :D

Please?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on December 07, 2012, 11:15:39 PM
Via the previous post, I know I may get looked over, despite being a 6.5 year vet,

All I can say is, may I please get a PM if this get's actively worked on? Would love to hop into CoX again...


Thanks
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: spindisc on December 07, 2012, 11:24:57 PM
PM list for me too, should such one exist.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 07, 2012, 11:35:28 PM
Count me amongst those who wants a PM should this occur. Please.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on December 08, 2012, 12:23:35 AM
Yeah, but I'll give you a pony.

It's fictional, and it'll only exist if you close your eyes, buuuut... :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on December 08, 2012, 12:23:57 AM
I should add that, if there was a  PM list for such a thing, the PM'er should be careful with who they add, as NCSoft has made a concerted effort to infiltrate such organizations during their enforcement operations in the past.   Screen previous posts, learn a bit about the people.  Do they seem credible?  Add only credible sources.  Early versions of any such private server are bound to be buggy and problematic, so people that have some technical experience would probably work best until things are stable

As an example of a credible person technically-inclined person, take my account.  It's been active for a few months, posts on a wide variety of issues, etc.  I work in the tech industry and manage a team troubleshooting several hundred machines daily.  I have an established history AND some degree of tech savvy.  I'd be a good candidate for said list.  Really.  Really good.... If such a PM list exists, I should really be put on it, no other questions asked.  I'm THAT solid of a candidate- no such PM list would be complete without me.  ;) 


So, if such a PM list exists, for your own sake, make sure I'm included, ok?  :D

Please?

<hikes up pants>
You sayin' yer better'n me?
<spits chaw>
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Elias on December 08, 2012, 03:02:43 AM
If a hypothetical PM list were to ever exist for some vaguely established idea like this, I would love to have my name on it. I'd be happy to run my through some hoops in testing. =)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 08, 2012, 05:55:55 AM
I would love to add my name to such a list among the other here. *sigh* I am having the worst CoV withdrawals.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sl701 on December 08, 2012, 07:23:24 AM
I would love to add my name to such a list among the other here. *sigh* I am having the worst CoV withdrawals.

Same here. I dug into the soundfiles yesterday and when I listened to the CoV music, a lot of emotions welled up.
So yes, I'd like to be added as well.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on December 08, 2012, 08:54:36 AM
Add me to the interested list. Tonight was the first friday in 2 years where I was unable lead a mothership raid. I was quit saddened by it.  I'll take coh in any form possible.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on December 08, 2012, 01:13:52 PM
Consider me interested as well...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Risha on December 08, 2012, 05:10:17 PM
Of course it would all be very illegal, but after stumbling through my first steps of World of Warcraft (where everyone looks the dam same with the same clothes as you pick up armor), and wearing a tunic with candle drippings that I had to LOOT (not feeling too much like a hero for THAT), if there's anything that will take me back to my beloved game, just count me in.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ampithere on December 08, 2012, 05:33:30 PM
Yeah color me interested. I've become disgusted with pretty much everything else out there right now and reverted to Baldur's Gate. Save me before I start making an Infinity Engine CoH mod  :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kurukaze on December 09, 2012, 01:28:45 AM
Of course it would all be very illegal, but after stumbling through my first steps of World of Warcraft (where everyone looks the dam same with the same clothes as you pick up armor), and wearing a tunic with candle drippings that I had to LOOT (not feeling too much like a hero for THAT), if there's anything that will take me back to my beloved game, just count me in.

No, it wouldn't necessarily have to be. There are a lot of factors making something illegal or not:

1) reverse engineering by itself is not illegal.
2) using knowledge gained by reverse engineering to create something new is not illegal if you don't break any patent/IP laws with it.
3) create something new that works similar to something existent or something no longer existent is not illegal if you don't break any patent/IP laws with it.

Now while 1) is very self explaining, I'll give you an example for 2)+3) from the Star Wars Galaxy EMU. The team needed to recode the login of the client to work with their servers' web adresses. They had to create a new log-in screen - the original screen played Star Wars music in the background. To not cross the Intellectual Property of Lucas, their download did not contain copyrighted music nor backgrounds of the original log-in screen, but screenshots/backgrounds and a music-loop of their own. The user however can easily replace this music-loop with original Star Wars music the user legally owns from other Star Wars games, his original SWG copy or any soundtrack (and naturally no one can do anything against the user deciding on a piece of music he does not legally own) as the musicfile can be directly accessed, renamed, replaced etc. Key is: the crew behind the EMU is not providing anything that's not their IP (the code of the EMU server in fact is their IP as well as the code of the client modification is their IP) and thus, the C&D has nothing to be based on. It's a thin line to do a ropewalk on, but it can work out.

Additionally, neither SOE nor LucasArts did care much to work against the EMU, as the EMU has limited itself to emulate the game at a point of before a certain update - so to a "service" the original companies no longer provided. (This gave them the chance to work on the EMU while the game was stilll running and that's basically why they have a running version already to answer a previous question.)

4) the definition of IP/copyright/trademark/patent violation greatly differs depending on where in this world you are.

If you place the server containing the downloads and the EMU service in Korea, China, Taiwan - no chance and your own fault. You will not be able to fight NC at their home turf in legal stuff. The US and UK could both be tricky, depending on how the EMU-code willl work in the end, what patents NC does still hold in the US at the time the EMU is ready etc.

In France or Germany however, you can avoid IP/trademark/etc problems by being to a certain degree "off" the original (I think it's about 20%, this can be looked up simple). Frauds from the eastern-asian market use this to flood fill the home market of both countries with product piracy. Some lawyers go the "but our I has a red dot over it!"-way in a fictional case of an original product "Hogi" turned into "Higo" by the asian pirates - and get away with it. Could you imagine how many judges would be amused to show a company from Korea "the finger" over a similar case in that two countries - especially when there's a non-profit group on the other end ;) ?

And if for some reason Europe does not work out, you have Brazil, Angola, Uruguay - or Switzerland, which is Europe while not really being Europe, as they kept their neutrality and thus are completely on their own.

So don't be to sure about "being illegal" from the start. They don't auto-win because they did with Tabula Rasa. They don't are in the position of having the law on their side because they tell you so or wrote the EULA. The more of the IP needed to play CoH is already on your harddrive labeled "client files", the less likely NC will win on IP related laws....
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sl701 on December 09, 2012, 07:27:04 AM
or Switzerland, which is Europe while not really being Europe, as they kept their neutrality and thus are completely on their own.

Let me chime un here... While it still is quite legal to download almost anything and don't get arrested, as long as you don't share the date with others (you could say that leeching is encouraged  ;)), I think that copyright laws are enforced. So probably a server here wouldn't last long.

Also, geographically we're in Europe, yes, but we are not part of the European Union and with all that's happening right now... Well, I'm glad we never joined. But this is derayling the thread.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Nightwatch on December 09, 2012, 11:37:35 AM

Another individual here VERY interested in inclusion on that non-existent pm list please.

Feeling the loss of CoH.   1 week into my third attempt over past couple of years to get at all interested in CO as a CoH alternative.  It's just not doing it for me.  My wife is now complaining I'm spending too much time with her.

If I'm remembered in game at all it's on Virtue - Dr Night, Moongirl, Niteshade, Zone Phantom, Timewatch, etc.  And earlier on Defiant and Union - Red Hood, Moonfox, Gryphon, Lightsmith, Midgard.

Would kill to be able to get back into the game.  Made some casual friends there but .. to be brutally honest .. I miss my toons more than people!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: grumpyguy on December 09, 2012, 12:25:37 PM
It is actively being worked on.  I can't give an ETA because most of the folks working on it do have day jobs and Life Happens™.  It will likely be a while, though, so I wouldn't look for anything, not even some vague pre-alpha something, within the next month.  After that, it just depends on how much of a pain it is or isn't to implement the APIs.  I assure you, we haven't vanished into the woodwork; it's just that with the timeframe we're looking at, there aren't going to be day-by-day updates.

That's reassuring. Good luck to y'all  ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mindscythe on December 09, 2012, 01:55:39 PM
I'm an 8 1/2 year vet, beta-tester for several of the later issues, and DJ on w00t Radio for the last few years it was in existence.

If a non-existent PM list were not non-existent, I would enjoy assisting in beta-testing / whatever. :) -Mindscythe
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on December 09, 2012, 02:07:12 PM
I miss my toons more than people!

You're implying your toons arent people!

BLASPHEMER!

Imagine I'm pointing and giving you a bodysnatchers scream.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 09, 2012, 02:21:59 PM
Imagine I'm pointing and giving you a bodysnatchers scream.

This vision sent chills down my spine.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on December 09, 2012, 02:22:35 PM
8 1/2 year vet here and I can bake. Cookies, cakes, pie... I'd be willing to trade PMs for snack type foods.  ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: chasearcanum on December 09, 2012, 04:19:16 PM
<hikes up pants>
You sayin' yer better'n me?
<spits chaw>

Of course not.  I couldn't pick someone as obvious as you dwturducken to use as an example.  Your inclusion is practically a given.  You're a no-brainer really...

... um... not that you're a no-brainer... I mean... you'd have to be a real dummy to n.. no, I didn't mean YOU were a real dummy... err...
(backs out of the thread slowly)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Atlantea on December 09, 2012, 05:51:18 PM
Of course not.  I couldn't pick someone as obvious as you dwturducken to use as an example.  Your inclusion is practically a given.  You're a no-brainer really...

... um... not that you're a no-brainer... I mean... you'd have to be a real dummy to n.. no, I didn't mean YOU were a real dummy... err...
(backs out of the thread slowly)

Here sir. Some Grey Poupon to make the shoe leather go down better. :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: AlienOne on December 10, 2012, 02:51:57 AM
I would be intensely interested in getting a PM as well for beta testing, if there is such a thing going on right now... If whoever is doing the "background checks" on people has access to the backed-up CoH forums, you can check my 1,500+ post count, the extensive human-form Warshade guide I wrote several years ago (I have a copy of it myself), and my post history here to show that I've been around a while and know the game inside and out--particularly the Kheldian portion of the game.

I got a beta invite for the game in 2004, opted out of it, and then started playing in 2005 after a friend of mine told me I should really try it. I got hooked on it and played it off and on until 2006, when I joined the CoH forums (these forums in 2008) and REALLY started getting involved in the game and finding everything out about it that I could, as well as being a regular poster in the Kheldian section of the forums for years. My human-forum Warshade guide was looked at as the go-to guide for gaining knowledge on Warshade builds, and I kept it regularly updated up until about a year ago, when I got busy with finishing my degree. I've always looked up to the Titan guys, because I credit the team that made and maintained Mid's Hero Designer for getting me truly addicted to CoH enough to start writing guides. I literally was in Mid's as often as I was playing CoH, and that was a lot.

I'm not a programmer, but I have a background in marketing, professional video/audio editing, and public affairs (press relations), so if there's anything I can do to help in addition to beta testing, I'd be glad to help.

Here's a screenshot of my main toon (My namesake, AlienOne--A Warshade, of course) being told how many hours he'd been on patrol right before the servers got shut down:

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=isaacwatson.com%2Fscreenshot_121201-02-46-36.jpg)

1,985 hours. On one toon.

I already miss this game terribly, and I've made four attempts already to re-make my main CoH character in CO, and just didn't have the heart to take it past the tutorial. It's just not the same.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 10, 2012, 03:32:44 AM
Obviously I would love to add my name to this non-existent PM list and effort.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Septipheran on December 10, 2012, 04:45:36 AM
Hey Alien! I know you were a fellow human Warshade here in COH, but perhaps you'll still find this video inspiring in terms of the creativity possible with Champions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2kT2zXThto&feature=g-crec-u
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Peregrine Falcon on December 10, 2012, 05:10:19 AM
This is how we're doing this? Seriously? Not to be a jerk, but why have sign up by PM? And what's to prevent an NCSoft employee from signing up this way in order to get the necessary info?

Look, I'm all for a private server or better yet some bit of downloadable code that allows me to run CoH on my machine as a single-player game, but don't think that this super secret PM list is going to keep NCSoft from finding out about anything you have going on.

Realistically the only thing that will prevent NCSoft from finding out about, and shutting down, a private server will be: A) it's physically located in a country that doesn't have laws against this and won't cooperate with SK/USA (like Russia?), or B) too much time passes and they simply no longer care.

Now that being said, in a couple of years, when this project is ready, and NCSoft's forgotten all about Paragon City... I hope that I also receive a PM.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: MWRuger on December 10, 2012, 05:19:07 AM
Yeah, when it happens, I definitely would like a PM.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 10, 2012, 06:15:10 AM
This is how we're doing this? Seriously? Not to be a jerk, but why have sign up by PM? And what's to prevent an NCSoft employee from signing up this way in order to get the necessary info?

I would expect the person(s) spearheading the project to have the sense of mind to invite people they could trust. Take myself for example. Although I've been around since before the first issue, I just recently joined this site. (For nostalgic reasons and also to stay connected with the community since NCSlut closed down the main forums.) And at that, I only have a few posts under my belt. I honestly doubt if I'm anywhere near the first wave of people to get invited to this server. If I even do get invited that is. I just threw my name in the hat, so-to-speak, to show support and on the off chance that someone important recognizes me and I actually DO get invited.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on December 10, 2012, 06:33:11 AM
This is how we're doing this? Seriously? Not to be a jerk, but why have sign up by PM? And what's to prevent an NCSoft employee from signing up this way in order to get the necessary info?

Look, I'm all for a private server or better yet some bit of downloadable code that allows me to run CoH on my machine as a single-player game, but don't think that this super secret PM list is going to keep NCSoft from finding out about anything you have going on.

Realistically the only thing that will prevent NCSoft from finding out about, and shutting down, a private server will be: A) it's physically located in a country that doesn't have laws against this and won't cooperate with SK/USA (like Russia?), or B) too much time passes and they simply no longer care.

Now that being said, in a couple of years, when this project is ready, and NCSoft's forgotten all about Paragon City... I hope that I also receive a PM.

Well played, sir...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mandrake on December 10, 2012, 07:22:31 AM
I would expect the person(s) spearheading the project to have the sense of mind to invite people they could trust. Take myself for example. Although I've been around since before the first issue, I just recently joined this site. (For nostalgic reasons and also to stay connected with the community since NCSlut closed down the main forums.) And at that, I only have a few posts under my belt. I honestly doubt if I'm anywhere near the first wave of people to get invited to this server. If I even do get invited that is. I just threw my name in the hat, so-to-speak, to show support and on the off chance that someone important recognizes me and I actually DO get invited.

Agreed. I seriously doubt that those providing the future hopeful project would not have taken all possibilities into consideration. There are many tools especially these days I am sure they would use to ensure they are following what they feel are secure procedures.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: mikoroshi on December 10, 2012, 07:26:46 AM
I would be interested in receiving a P of the M as well.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 10, 2012, 09:37:32 AM
Quote
This is how we're doing this? Seriously? Not to be a jerk, but why have sign up by PM? And what's to prevent an NCSoft employee from signing up this way in order to get the necessary info?
No, we're not. It started with this paragraph in third post of this thread:
Quote
Perhaps someone will private message you with their private efforts that are not on a public server where NCSoft can see it, find you both, and know where send the Cease and Decist letter they would need to slightly modify from their recent Tabula Rasa squelch experiances.  :)
\
And ever since, this thread turned into what can only be described as a beg-fest.

Let's get some goddamn facts straight:
* This is not a recruitment thread.
* There is no PM list.
* There is no working private server yet.

*Horseman snorts derisively*
And I really think that begging like this is undignified and entirely pointless. If you know the right people and they know your skill set, they will find you when they need it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: AlienOne on December 10, 2012, 11:04:13 AM
No, we're not. It started with this paragraph in third post of this thread:\
And ever since, this thread turned into what can only be described as a beg-fest.

Let's get some goddamn facts straight:
* This is not a recruitment thread.
* There is no PM list.
* There is no working private server yet.

*Horseman snorts derisively*
And I really think that begging like this is undignified and entirely pointless. If you know the right people and they know your skill set, they will find you when they need it.

...and the only way you get to know "people" and the only way they get to know what you can do is for you to tell them.

Like in this thread.

Honestly, if I were a moderator, I'd rather everyone post what their skillsets were and what they felt their qualifications were for getting involved in a project like this in one thread (like this one), rather than creating 150 new unique threads, each for one person introducing themselves and explaining what they're about.

This way, it gives one resource to go to when looking for someone with a specific skillset.

Get off your high "horse" and stop looking at it like "begging." Most of us simply stated we would like to be included and stated why. We're all adults here.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 10, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
Yes, I am a jerk. No, I'm not being one to you just because I feel like it. I'm being one because a) that's the only way I can think of to get you back to your senses and b) I have a very personal dislike of the "me, me!!!" attitude.

A group working on a private server is not just going to take on anyone who asks to be included. The reasons have been posted already in this thread, at least twice over. Requesting to be included says nothing about your trustworthiness - the project's creators are going to primarily trust people they already know.
Posting a written description of your abilities does not guarantee you actually have that skill set, much less your competence in it. You can only prove that by showing your work or helping with another project known to the private server's creators.
Did the group working on the private server open public recruitment? No, and no matter how much requests are going to be posted here, it is not going to happen. Do people who post their requests here improve their chance of being recruited? No, and in fact you may be damaging your chances of getting in, as the overall tone here is leaning towards "let me in to play the game" and not "can my skills be of any help?".
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 10, 2012, 02:07:04 PM
You know what? When some people get whiny and angry because they didn't get invited to the party, then perhaps your harsh diatribe will apply.

Until then, I'll just run with your own admission...

Yes, I am a jerk.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Surelle on December 10, 2012, 02:38:51 PM
Obviously I would love to add my name to this non-existent PM list and effort.

Yes, me too please. 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tanglefoe on December 10, 2012, 02:49:44 PM
Checking my messages daily, for no particular reason...

Don't know why I'm posting this here since this is NOT a PM list or anything :-X
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CG on December 10, 2012, 03:18:57 PM
Checking my messages daily, for no particular reason...

Don't know why I'm posting this here since this is NOT a PM list or anything :-X
Seriously guys, it's going to take months.  Personally, I figure an announcement for a private server will happen at the anniversary of the shutdown.  Be cool.  It's a marathon, not a sprint.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on December 10, 2012, 03:40:17 PM
Checking my messages daily, for no particular reason...

Honestly I wouldn't expect to hear anything for quite some time.

From my rather extensive experience with the client, I can tell you that while the client does contain most of the assets, the majority of the game processing happens server side. Significantly more than many other MMOs, actually. WoW for instance doesn't do full physics serverside (and even line-of-sight is halfassed), which is why client hacks allow people to cheat there -- and why they need Warden. COH does all of that on the server, and the client is designed around that assumption.

Factor two is that this close to the shutdown, you can bet eyes within NCSoft are looking very closely at this community. Discussing working on such a project on an open forum would be a dumb move of epic proportions. Even trading PMs with unknown parties would be risky, and unless a very specific skill set was needed, there would be no reason to do so. I notice that even the one project that I know of that's trying an open approach has gotten very quiet lately.

Even if such a thing were being developed, it would likely be a year or more before it was even ready for beta testing, much less widespread use.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on December 10, 2012, 04:47:06 PM
Yes, I am a jerk. No, I'm not being one to you just because I feel like it. I'm being one because a) that's the only way I can think of to get you back to your senses and b) I have a very personal dislike of the "me, me!!!" attitude.

Dude, eat a snickers. You get cranky when you're hungry.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.toneparsons.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2006%2F10%2Fcranky1.jpg)

From what I can tell, a lot of these posts are tongue in cheek. I've gotten a giggle out of quite a few, and I know mine was meant that way. I mean really, trading baked goods for a nonexistent invite to a nonexistent project? It's like the ultimate in I Haz Pie.

I believe a lot of people are currently going through DTs and this is one of the ways they're expressing it. Any port in a storm, light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. I doubt anyone is thoroughly convinced that BABs is going to suddenly appear sporting a pair of fairy wings and a tutu to sprinkle fairy dust over their computers and magically hook them up to the mother of all emus.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Nafaustu on December 10, 2012, 07:04:51 PM
I believe a lot of people are currently going through DTs and this is one of the ways they're expressing it. Any port in a storm, light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. I doubt anyone is thoroughly convinced that BABs is going to suddenly appear sporting a pair of fairy wings and a tutu to sprinkle fairy dust over their computers and magically hook them up to the mother of all emus.

I'm hoping for fairy wings and mouse ears and connection to a legitimate server, actually. :)
You hear that Mouse?   Shut up and take my money!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 10, 2012, 07:54:46 PM
From what I can tell, a lot of these posts are tongue in cheek. I've gotten a giggle out of quite a few, and I know mine was meant that way. I mean really, trading baked goods for a nonexistent invite to a nonexistent project? It's like the ultimate in I Haz Pie.

Is there a PM list for Pie?  ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sl701 on December 10, 2012, 08:06:40 PM
Is there a PM list for Pie?  ;D

And beer? My wive bakes cookies atm... I can put you on that list, though  ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Colette on December 10, 2012, 08:08:07 PM
If Disney acquires CoH, a set of mouse ears in the costume creator is an absolute must!

And I expect Gus, Ezra and Phineas in the Night Ward.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Atlantea on December 10, 2012, 08:26:12 PM
I know of at least 2 people who specifically play mouse-girls instead of cat-girls who would LOVE that.

*ahem*

Not that... you know... there's anything wrong with that....

>.>
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on December 10, 2012, 09:16:09 PM
@Nafaustu; agreed.

@corvus1970; Sorry, but after the horrible Cumberland Gap pie incident of 1982 the USPS has requested that large amounts of pies not be shipped. You know the drill, if you get one everyone will want one. For a connection to CoH I can make sure one is hand delivered, otherwise... not so much.  ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: AlienOne on December 11, 2012, 12:14:19 AM
I'd also like to get added to the pie list as well.

I have no other qualifications in that department other than the fact that I like pie.

I may get slammed for that too...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: eabrace on December 11, 2012, 12:57:09 AM
Discussing working on such a project on an open forum would be a dumb move of epic proportions. Even trading PMs with unknown parties would be risky, and unless a very specific skill set was needed, there would be no reason to do so. I notice that even the one project that I know of that's trying an open approach has gotten very quiet lately.
Honestly, if I had a private server running somewhere, anyone that discussed the possibility of finding a private server in a publicly visible forum like this one would automatically remove themselves from the list of possible invites.  Not because I'm a jerk, mind you - not that I'm saying I'm not; draw your own conclusions - but I'd be taking extreme measures to prevent even a hint that the server existed from making its way back to NCsoft.

But that's me.  I tend to be a little over-cautious.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 11, 2012, 01:32:41 AM
I may get slammed for that too...

Possibly. There are a few of those rabid fruit-cobbler purists out there after all :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CoyoteSeven on December 11, 2012, 01:58:47 AM
I might be curious about this PM list thingie. Hypothetically!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on December 11, 2012, 04:49:10 AM
Oh, what the heck.  Lemme express that, should there accidentally be some sort of PM thing happen, I would read it, then throw it away, of course.  I mean, who would actually run such a thing? 

>.>
<.<

What?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 11, 2012, 07:20:56 AM
Yes, I am a jerk. No, I'm not being one to you just because I feel like it. I'm being one because a) that's the only way I can think of to get you back to your senses and b) I have a very personal dislike of the "me, me!!!" attitude.



If your intention is to get people back to their senses, then you have chosen the wrong forum... AND the wrong community. The CoX fanbase on Titan has never really been known for taking things sensibly. They/we are here to follow the game nearly religiously and it has served them/us well for many years.

Also, if you dislike the "me, me!!!" attitude, then you are again in the wrong place. The entire campaign of Save CoH is all about hundreds, if not thousands, of unified voices saying "Me!" Or, more appropriately, "Mine!" As in, "My city!" I would venture to guess that everyone on this forum (save for you and anyone with your mindset) is here because they want to see their game, their community, their "home", returned to them. We are not in this for other people, we are in this for ourselves. Get over it and join us or get out.

(You're not the only one that can be a jerk.)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: mikoroshi on December 11, 2012, 07:28:36 AM
Guys.  Eat something.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.promomarketing.info%2Fimagebank%2F8%2F7%2F3%2F8739.jpg)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: healix on December 11, 2012, 08:08:21 AM
MMMMMMMMMMMMM....it's good to be me again
(https://i.imgur.com/zVew5l.gif)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on December 11, 2012, 08:32:23 AM
hundreds, if not thousands, of unified voices saying "Me!" Or, more appropriately, "Mine!"

(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/Funny%20Pics/nemogulls.jpg)




...I had to, couldn't resist it. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Celtic Lass on December 11, 2012, 08:44:35 AM
(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/Funny%20Pics/nemogulls.jpg)




...I had to, couldn't resist it. :)

Thank you.  This made my morning!  ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: digitalenigma on December 11, 2012, 09:01:41 AM
I would just like to make it known that I am a fan of private messages :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: healix on December 11, 2012, 09:05:32 AM
[private message] ok, digi...we'll remember that :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on December 11, 2012, 07:10:27 PM
This has been my soapbox from the beginning of the end, NCsoft is determined to permanently mothball CoH and a private server is our only option.

So...send something or not? Is that how this works? ...or not?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Deathmint on December 11, 2012, 09:50:24 PM
I just wanted to say the derailment of the thread and the pictures that it prompted made me giggle at my computer screen like a crazy person. Thanks. I needed that.  ;D

On topic, I've always found it extremely interesting that, when pretty much every other MMO has a private server (including a little known one called Phantasy Star Online), this one didn't. I think I felt the loss that much more because of it. From what I've been reading about the way NCSoft is, it makes sense.

I don't know if there will ever be a private server, but for me the "what now" is simply gratitude that there's a place I can go to like this. You guys give me lots of interesting reading material.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SARobb on December 12, 2012, 06:12:08 PM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.newageheroes.guildportal.com%2FGuildFiles%2F368209%2Fth_onoz-derail.gif)

 ;D

Just had too
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on December 12, 2012, 06:28:33 PM
I don't need to be on any PM list. I need to be able to play with CodeWalker's dots like a game of Tetris. Please. Pretty please?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: mikoroshi on December 12, 2012, 06:35:30 PM
play with CodeWalker's dots
I am not sure that kind of erotic talk is appreciated here. ;P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SARobb on December 12, 2012, 06:37:03 PM
nono...it's fine...

/em grabpopcorn
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: mikoroshi on December 12, 2012, 06:37:58 PM
0_o
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Colette on December 12, 2012, 06:47:45 PM
Heh! I love you guys.

Okay, the "high road" is to convince NCSoft it's in their best interests to sell. We're using both carrot (pitching to bring offers) and stick (pissin' in their cereal.)

The "low road..." I understand NCSoft's trampled on prior attempts. However, if within the period of time it would take to set up the low road (let's say two years,) they continue to be recalcitrant, we might have to explore... other options.

As "the low road" would pacify us, they might actually leave us alone, rather than stir up the hornet's nest all over again. If they do bother us... we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.

We'd have full power.  Roll back I-13 PVP changes? Can do. Tail-capes? Can do.

So... I say damn the torpedoes. Best of luck to y'all brave programmers on... whatever y'all are doing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Celtic Lass on December 12, 2012, 06:49:01 PM
I am not sure that kind of erotic talk is appreciated here. ;P
(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/Forum%20Smileys/facepalm.gif)
... <walks away>
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Colette on December 12, 2012, 06:56:39 PM
What...? Still too obvious? I could delete that if it's still too obvious.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ampithere on December 13, 2012, 01:20:20 AM
Ok, here's the plan.

We are going to collect enough money to buy CoH. But we aren't going to buy it. We are going to buy an island that is not currently in any country. Then, we are going to put reverse engineered CoH servers there and market it as our own MMO. It'll be great. We'll be untouchable and spitting in NCSoft's face.

Seriously though, they would make a movie about that.  :roll:
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 13, 2012, 01:50:01 AM
Ok, here's the plan.

We are going to collect enough money to buy CoH. But we aren't going to buy it. We are going to buy an island that is not currently in any country. Then, we are going to put reverse engineered CoH servers there and market it as our own MMO. It'll be great. We'll be untouchable and spitting in NCSoft's face.

Seriously though, they would make a movie about that.  :roll:

Before we buy the island, can we pull a Matthew Inman (of The Oatmeal) and take a picture of the money, stacked neatly, with a caption that reads "Look at all this money you're never going to have"? >.>
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 13, 2012, 02:17:15 AM
Ok, here's the plan.

We are going to collect enough money to buy CoH. But we aren't going to buy it. We are going to buy an island that is not currently in any country. Then, we are going to put reverse engineered CoH servers there and market it as our own MMO. It'll be great. We'll be untouchable and spitting in NCSoft's face.

Seriously though, they would make a movie about that.  :roll:

They did.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1131729/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1131729/)

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=ecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F51T8W8StBrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It didn't end well.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 13, 2012, 09:18:47 AM
Seriously though, they would make a movie about that.  :roll:

I call dibs on Nick Cage playing me.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Celtic Lass on December 13, 2012, 09:42:49 AM
I call dibs on Nick Cage playing me.

I thought he already had a role?
(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/AvengeCOH/nicholas_cage_superman_outfit.jpg)
(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/Forum%20Smileys/Holidays/candy_cane-1789.gif)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 13, 2012, 09:50:09 AM
I thought he already had a role?
(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/AvengeCOH/nicholas_cage_superman_outfit.jpg)
(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/Forum%20Smileys/Holidays/candy_cane-1789.gif)
0

He'd totally turn it down to represent this...    /e flex2
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Celtic Lass on December 13, 2012, 10:01:34 AM
He'd totally turn it down to represent this...    /e flex2

Since we're dreaming big, I got dibs on Scarlett Johansson playing me (IF she keeps the red hair she had in The Avengers). (https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/Forum%20Smileys/Emoticons_07_by_Senior_X.gif)

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 13, 2012, 11:04:02 AM
Dibs on Robert Downey Jr. :p
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: DrakeGrimm on December 13, 2012, 11:25:41 AM
Dibs on Robert Downey Jr. :p

Okay, but I get Louis C.K.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 13, 2012, 11:41:30 AM
I guess they'll have to get Betty White to play me.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 13, 2012, 03:05:09 PM
Seth Green plays me, as usual *lol*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on December 13, 2012, 03:54:01 PM
VV, for some reason, I see Lee Garlington (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0307600/) playing you. Everything I've seen her in, she's been at least an antagonist, if not the actual "bad guy," but she's always a bad @$$ doing it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on December 13, 2012, 07:01:32 PM
I call Scarlet Johanson!

For... no reason.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on December 13, 2012, 09:16:34 PM
I dunno who'd play me but Emma Stone would play my main character.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CapaDevans on December 13, 2012, 09:43:07 PM
I like private messages. They are my friend. I would like to hug them, cuddle them and call them my main ...

:)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Celtic Lass on December 13, 2012, 10:00:18 PM
I call Scarlet Johanson!

For... no reason.

Too late, I already called dibs! :P

(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/AvengeCOH/coh_happy_holidays.gif)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on December 13, 2012, 10:17:49 PM
Ben Affleck!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arctic Force. on December 13, 2012, 10:46:37 PM
Billy Connolly
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Hyperstrike on December 13, 2012, 11:10:41 PM
Matt Damo...okay...you got me...Jon Lovitz...   >:(
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: eabrace on December 13, 2012, 11:37:15 PM
Jack Black.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on December 13, 2012, 11:57:57 PM
Too late, I already called dibs! :P

(https://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa341/xXPixieBratXx/AvengeCOH/coh_happy_holidays.gif)

To Ouroboros!

Be back in five minutes ago.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on December 14, 2012, 03:42:15 AM
Jack Black.

DAMMIT.

Ok, fine.  Robin Williams.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mouse-Man on December 14, 2012, 03:58:02 AM
I anxiously, as do many, await the day I can run my own server and me and my friends can once again run rampant across the skies of my city.

However, if you are working on this and you are reading this... Follow the advice of others here and trust only those you KNOW you can trust. It sucks to be me as I am neither known or have any kind of proof that I can be trusted, but I'd rather have a chance of tripping over the software I need to do it later on, than see the whole thing destroyed from within before it's ready.

And if you are working on this, just in case I can't say it later... Thank you.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mindscythe on December 14, 2012, 04:34:25 PM
Kevin Smith
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sl701 on December 14, 2012, 04:41:32 PM
<.<
>.>

Bruce Campbell
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: AlphaFerret on December 14, 2012, 10:01:36 PM
Since Bruce got snatched, I would have to go for Adrian Paul.  Of course he would have to get into shape and pretty up in order to assume my persona...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mister Bison on December 14, 2012, 10:33:07 PM
I don't know what calling is.

But what I'm gonna call...

is one pair of sunglasses
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=a395.idata.over-blog.com%2F595x340%2F3%2F58%2F52%2F98%2FSERIES-TV%2FDavidCaruso.jpg)

YEEEEEEEESSSSSSS
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Waya on December 15, 2012, 06:24:13 PM
Ok, here's the plan.

We are going to collect enough money to buy CoH. But we aren't going to buy it. We are going to buy an island that is not currently in any country. Then, we are going to put reverse engineered CoH servers there and market it as our own MMO. It'll be great. We'll be untouchable and spitting in NCSoft's face.

Seriously though, they would make a movie about that.  :roll:

I wonder if it would be possible to work out some arrangement with NCsoft wherein NCsoft would retain the rights to their oh-so "(my) precious" intellectual property, but we (Titan Network, former CoH players themselves - I don't care who) could obtain a "license" to run a server(s) with the most current content (from the Beta server, perhaps)? That way, if CoH resurges, NCsoft would still own the rights, and make a ton of money - say, if a CoH MOVIE or TV show or whatever, happened...but we'd still get to play the game we all love, even if it was just in a "maintenance" state, with no new content.

Even without the possibility of new content any time in the foreseeable future, I'd be willing to roll that way, just to get to play the game I love still...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 16, 2012, 03:06:19 PM
I would like that option too.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on December 17, 2012, 03:33:02 AM
I don't think y'all are gettin' it.  NCSoft is doing something *very* strange, and whatever their plan is, no "oh, that'll be just fine, go ahead and run it!" is going to come until and unless it's

a) resurrected in their possession.
b) sold to another who resurrects it.

Excepting those two, the hacked server method is the only way you'll be able to play the game, as NCSoft is simply uninterested (I would suppose that's the best word?) in the small amount of people who would want this, but very interested in not letting the tech/IP back out into the wild.

And *especially* if it's possible to be sold.  Giving anyone the ingredients to The Drink for free means you can't sell The Drink formula to anyone else, as it becomes worthless.  Or so the thought goes.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 17, 2012, 03:06:19 PM
>>Excepting those two, the hacked server method is the only way you'll be able to play the game

I would be happy to use a hacked server too.  Ecstatic, in fact.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on December 17, 2012, 04:03:11 PM
I would like to warn you folks that if such a thing occurs you need to not be using any form of communication on these boards including PM's as it could come down on Titan.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on December 17, 2012, 04:26:04 PM
Since titan wouldn't be supporting it as long as links aren't posted publicly here they should be fine.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: daveyfiacre on December 17, 2012, 07:00:51 PM
i will take one of those secret messages with links for a hack server

<_<

give me tech and code and i'll finish writing/linking those radiation sets and the wind control set too, using existing but not used animations and junk [numbers and stuff is already there, yea?]?

>_>

^_^
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Crimson-Oriole on December 18, 2012, 05:54:48 AM
I debated on whether or not to post this, but it comes from a very reliable source.  Others may or may not back me on this, but:

Quote
NCSoft executives don't give a damn about their players.  And they have no idea where their players hang out, so all the projects on the Titan Network should be relatively safe.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on December 18, 2012, 06:21:35 AM
I debated on whether or not to post this, but it comes from a very reliable source.  Others may or may not back me on this, but:
I've said it before here, I'll say it again.  Any strategy that relies on the incompetence of our enemy is a bad strategy.  This would not be a good idea.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 18, 2012, 06:34:42 AM
I've said it before here, I'll say it again.  Any strategy that relies on the incompetence of our enemy is a bad strategy.  This would not be a good idea.

What's the worst that happens if you are paranoid, assume the adversary is competent, and plan accordingly?   ;D

What's the worst that happens if you do the opposite?   :gonk:
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 18, 2012, 07:44:36 AM
Okay, let's get back to being serious here...

Why is everyone here saying that they would like to get PMS??

OHhhhh... PMs!!
Sorry!

Yes, I love the PM as well as I've always been a night owl.

Now, back to the more relevant matter - casting us for this movie.

Hmmm... I'd love a chance to play myself, but I worry that I'm note quite right for that role.

While I only recently discovered that Marc-Paul Gosselaar may have made a great Electric-Knight...
I think, instead, I shall make a more fun and interesting casting choice... and choose Gary Oldman (because he can play just about anything and everything).

Okay, now that we've got this thread back on track... what do you have to say?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 18, 2012, 08:04:02 AM
...
Okay, now that we've got this thread back on track... what do you have to say?

I have to say that I find your posting style sexy! However, I only have to say that because you're holding a chainsaw against my neck.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 18, 2012, 08:49:16 AM
Assume the adversary is not just competent, but willing to use every dirty trick at their disposal.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on December 18, 2012, 09:01:38 AM
[fortunecookie] "Assuming your adversary is incompetent only proves it true about yourself." [/fortunecookie]


Yes, I love the PM as well as I've always been a night owl.

I've been known to dig the nightlife myself on occasion:

(https://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/KansasCrawford/City%20of%20Heroes/LondonRainDisco.jpg)

London Rain takes it down to Funkytown
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Vox Doom on December 18, 2012, 09:18:04 PM
Wait, people are getting PMs?

I'd like a PM.

I'd like one very much.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Profit on December 18, 2012, 09:53:01 PM
I would like a M&M.

>>
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: damienray on December 18, 2012, 10:48:44 PM
M&M ?? PM ?? Please keep Mamma & DamienRay in the loop :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 19, 2012, 03:18:11 AM
I would like a bag of special dark M&Ms please.  I find in these dark days of loss that I need theobromine very badly.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Terwyn on December 19, 2012, 03:20:42 AM
Ah yes, the most effective psychoactive substance known to humanity - Chocolate! :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 19, 2012, 03:31:45 AM
I would like a bag of special dark M&Ms please.  I find in these dark days of loss that I need theobromine very badly.

I could use some myself. I absolutely have to hit the store tomorrow.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mentalshock on December 19, 2012, 03:35:23 AM
I would like a bag of special dark M&Ms please.  I find in these dark days of loss that I need theobromine very badly.

Have you tried the Pretzel M&Ms?   While not bad, I prefer the peanut or almond ones, but the Dark ones a very nice for baking, and whenever the mood hits.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 19, 2012, 04:10:33 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=acimg.auctivacommerce.com%2Fimgdata%2F0%2F2%2F4%2F6%2F4%2F0%2Fwebimg%2F4887430.jpg)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 20, 2012, 11:09:40 AM
I would like a bag of special dark M&Ms please.  I find in these dark days of loss that I need theobromine very badly.


I'm not one for nuts in my candy, nor do I really like dark chocolate. I have found that Ghirardelli milk chocolate and caramel squares to be very, very satisfying and better than SSRIs.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 20, 2012, 11:14:07 PM
nor do I really like dark chocolate.

More for me! :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on December 20, 2012, 11:30:15 PM
THIS... is heaven -

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.blisstree.com%2Ffiles%2F2008%2F06%2Flindt-excellence-chili.jpg)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 20, 2012, 11:34:02 PM
Agreed. That's damn good stuff.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: eabrace on December 21, 2012, 12:20:47 AM
THIS... is heaven -
You know, I've never had those, but the sound really good.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on December 21, 2012, 12:27:09 AM
You gotta try one eabrace, but fair warning: they're highly addictive.

In looking for a pic I just found out you can buy them by from Staples.com for $29.99 for a 12 bar box... now if you'll excuse me, I have some last minute editing to do to my Xmas list.... *inserts mad, maniacal laughter*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 21, 2012, 12:30:18 AM
More for me! :D

I'll buy you a box if/when the game comes back.  ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 21, 2012, 01:47:25 AM
Did everyone else get the pm that I just did?  Because I seem to be all alone on this private CoX server and I need some people to play with.

Kidding! 

OK, maybe that was a little mean, but I so want it to be *true*...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on December 21, 2012, 05:43:10 AM
You gotta try one eabrace, but fair warning: they're highly addictive.

In looking for a pic I just found out you can buy them by from Staples.com for $29.99 for a 12 bar box... now if you'll excuse me, I have some last minute editing to do to my Xmas list.... *inserts mad, maniacal laughter*

I'm starting to think that all of these posts that are going off topic are really code claiming on how to enter a CoX private server. And the following off-topic posts are actually people discussing how awesome the private server is.

 :o
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on December 21, 2012, 06:27:55 AM
Everyone knows Toblerone wins the chocolate wars.
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=images.fanpop.com%2Fimages%2Fimage_uploads%2FToblerone-chocolate-522042_800_418.jpg)

Fun fact, or maybe sad fact... the first time I ever tried this, was with a person I met originally in CoH.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Risha on December 21, 2012, 09:36:41 PM
Lindt truffles.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on December 21, 2012, 09:55:13 PM
Lindt truffles.

Mmmmmmmmm...... Lindors..... om nom nom nom nom
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Xieveral on December 21, 2012, 11:01:46 PM
THIS... is heaven -

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.blisstree.com%2Ffiles%2F2008%2F06%2Flindt-excellence-chili.jpg)

I do love me some spicy chocolate and I can do you one better...

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.cari-fit.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F10%2Ffirecracker_bar_web.jpg)

Dark chocolate with chili pop-rocks... its amazing

Their spicy maya bar is great too but no pop rocks ;-;
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on December 22, 2012, 01:30:33 PM
Did everyone else get the pm that I just did?  Because I seem to be all alone on this private CoX server and I need some people to play with.

Kidding! 

OK, maybe that was a little mean, but I so want it to be *true*...

I want something very bad to happen to you for getting people's hopes up for a split second.  :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 22, 2012, 02:47:11 PM
Something very bad *did* happen to me - I lost my CoX!   >:(
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mindscythe on December 22, 2012, 03:15:15 PM
And a certain site seems to have dropped off the Interwebs. :( Not looking hopeful.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on December 22, 2012, 04:14:10 PM
Their SourceForge entry is still there, as is the source repository on SF. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on December 22, 2012, 06:32:13 PM
I do love me some spicy chocolate and I can do you one better...

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.cari-fit.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F10%2Ffirecracker_bar_web.jpg)

Dark chocolate with chili pop-rocks... its amazing

Their spicy maya bar is great too but no pop rocks ;-;


Pop rocks?? Hmmm... typically I'm a purist and would say that popping should not get in the way of savoring the mana... but I may see if I can track one of these down. :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on December 22, 2012, 06:35:26 PM
I'm starting to think that all of these posts that are going off topic are really code claiming on how to enter a CoX private server. And the following off-topic posts are actually people discussing how awesome the private server is.

 :o

Lol Kriiden, although this thought has a nice tin foil essence to it, if there were a CoX emu out there, you would never, NEVER find me here posting. ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Colette on December 24, 2012, 09:48:05 PM
Got a relevent article here. If this is old news to y'all, my bad.

Turns out earlier this month, a group of independent fans created a My Little Pony MMO all by themselves, only to have the copyright holders shut them down this month. Well, whether you're a fan of the ponies or not, (and I'm very much not a fan of those irrelevant pony-pics that started popping up on the old CoH board,) it's an interesting case study. Yes, it is possible to set up and run something yourself. It's also possible for the rightful owners to shut you down.

Mind, I personally would revel in playing "keep away" with NCSoft and musical ISPs as an exercise in civil disobedience. Way I see it, the more troublesome we can be, the more eager they'll be to get rid of us. But then, I flirt with "redside" from time to time.

Its an interesting example.

http://gamepolitics.com/2012/12/10/unauthorized-my-little-pony-mmo-shut-down (http://gamepolitics.com/2012/12/10/unauthorized-my-little-pony-mmo-shut-down)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on December 24, 2012, 10:09:51 PM
[...] Well, whether you're a fan of the ponies or not, (and I'm very much not a fan of those irrelevant pony-pics that started popping up on the old CoH board,) it's an interesting case study.

Those pictures were mind-numbingly annoying, perhaps most of all because these so-called My Little Ponies actually look nothing at all like ponies. They share the trait of four legs, and they also have tails. Otherwise nothing about them says 'pony' to me... or even 'equine.' They most closely resemble dogs.

Quote
Mind, I personally would revel in playing "keep away" with NCSoft and musical ISPs as an exercise in civil disobedience. Way I see it, the more troublesome we can be, the more eager they'll be to get rid of us. But then, I flirt with "redside" from time to time.

Musical ISPs sounds like the way to go. How delicious that would be.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: xCain on December 25, 2012, 01:07:34 AM
Ok im not having fun with any other games out there, anything i can do to help for a emu im down. I have no skills to help do it...but i wanna play!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Waya on December 25, 2012, 07:41:10 PM
I don't think y'all are gettin' it.  NCSoft is doing something *very* strange, and whatever their plan is, no "oh, that'll be just fine, go ahead and run it!" is going to come until and unless it's

a) resurrected in their possession.
b) sold to another who resurrects it.

Excepting those two, the hacked server method is the only way you'll be able to play the game, as NCSoft is simply uninterested (I would suppose that's the best word?) in the small amount of people who would want this, but very interested in not letting the tech/IP back out into the wild.

And *especially* if it's possible to be sold.  Giving anyone the ingredients to The Drink for free means you can't sell The Drink formula to anyone else, as it becomes worthless.  Or so the thought goes.

Actually, I understand perfectly what you are saying. You see two options. Neither of which NCsoft has shown any REAL interest in doing. Let's look at motivation...

a.) NCSOFT RE-OPENS THE GAME. NCsoft isn't going to resurrect CoH while they are still trying to jumpstart their new projects. The only way they's resurrect CoH is if their new project(s) fail miserably, and they are suddenly caught short in total "survivor" mode, looking to keep the money rolling in.

b.) SELLING IT OFF. The other option, selling the intellectual property in its entirety seems to have been completely canned by NCsoft. They seem to think it's a good idea to keep the IP in a headlock, JUST IN CASE enough interest arrises later to revive the IP. (For example, the original Star Trek was cancelled, but later, they had SEVERAL more series, and a couple series of movies...not to mention all the merchandising.)

I was asking about a completely different third option. Has anyone approached NCsoft about the possibilty of BUYING a "license" to run a server(s), in a maintenance state. NCsoft would not need to put in more money to develop new content, but they'd make money from the licensing fees. NCsoft would still own the IP, so that if interest revived to the point of grand money-making schemes (TV, movies, merchandising, whatever), they'd have the rights to it all...but those of us who love the game would still get to play it, in the meantime.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 25, 2012, 11:34:21 PM
...NCSoft is simply uninterested (I would suppose that's the best word?) in the small amount of people who would want this...

I have yet to understand the reason so many people are saying this. There are over 100 people on this forum alone that want their game back and are actively doing something about it. Over 10,000 people were subscribed to the game right before the sunset announcement. Over 20,000 signed the petition. The game was pulling in well over two million per quarter, upwards of 10 million per year.  Given all these things, and the campaigns of the "Save CoH"ers, how can anyone say that not many people want this?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on December 26, 2012, 12:01:10 AM
Because companies are only interested in WoW-like numbers, is why. And people know this. So they say silly things like that.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on December 26, 2012, 12:35:26 AM
Which is ridiculous.  Out of the top ten MMOs, I don't think #2 through #10 combined have as many subscribers as WoW (which is, of course, #1)

Not that companies aren't shooting for that anyway, but I don't think we'll ever see another fluke like WoW.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 26, 2012, 12:38:02 AM
Actually, I understand perfectly what you are saying. You see two options. Neither of which NCsoft has shown any REAL interest in doing.

Except that in the recent "reorganization" notice, wherein NCSoft announces it is selling NCSoft Interactive (NCSoft West) to itself, NCSoft made the official statement that "nothing regarding the selling of CoH has been decided yet" or words to that effect.

It is entirely possible they are lying to us again.

It is also possible that someone higher up than the person who issued the statement that "all options have been exhausted" has made an executive decision that they will see if a buyer more to their liking emerges.

Based on the fact that Team Wildcard is dedicated to leaving no stone unturned, we are operating on the basis that possibility number two is true.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Quinch on December 26, 2012, 02:57:20 AM
I have yet to understand the reason so many people are saying this.

I see it a lot, and my guess is it's basically an assumption of logic - most games get shut down because of a lack of interest, therefore it's reasonable to assume that CoH did too therefore there weren't many players.

It's when the numbers - verifiable numbers, almost 60K subscribers' worth of revenue* - come to light that the complete lack of rhyme or reason for the shutdown becomes apparent. But without knowing that fact, there's an unspoken assumption that "business knows best", without thinking of the possibility that whoever in NCsoft made the decision to kill off the game was smoking buttcrack.

*our numbers give us around 40K vreems, around 20K preems and around 40K freems - but I've translated the total revenue into $15-a-month for the sake of context.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on December 26, 2012, 04:03:10 AM
Actually, I understand perfectly what you are saying. You see two options. Neither of which NCsoft has shown any REAL interest in doing. Let's look at motivation...

a.) NCSOFT RE-OPENS THE GAME. NCsoft isn't going to resurrect CoH while they are still trying to jumpstart their new projects. The only way they's resurrect CoH is if their new project(s) fail miserably, and they are suddenly caught short in total "survivor" mode, looking to keep the money rolling in.

b.) SELLING IT OFF. The other option, selling the intellectual property in its entirety seems to have been completely canned by NCsoft. They seem to think it's a good idea to keep the IP in a headlock, JUST IN CASE enough interest arrises later to revive the IP. (For example, the original Star Trek was cancelled, but later, they had SEVERAL more series, and a couple series of movies...not to mention all the merchandising.)

I was asking about a completely different third option. Has anyone approached NCsoft about the possibilty of BUYING a "license" to run a server(s), in a maintenance state. NCsoft would not need to put in more money to develop new content, but they'd make money from the licensing fees. NCsoft would still own the IP, so that if interest revived to the point of grand money-making schemes (TV, movies, merchandising, whatever), they'd have the rights to it all...but those of us who love the game would still get to play it, in the meantime.

The problem with doing the license is that they will be likely asked to do maintenance, or at least support, possibly, and they are already disinterested in this aspect, or the game would be up, and frozen in time, developmentwise.  They want NO part of even running a server... why would they let anyone else do it?  Further, then the bear is in the wild if licensed to, oh, me, for example, because what is to stop someone from making a copy and such for the black market? (and there will be one.  Trust me on that.)  We are therefore back to what I said, then, in that they are not interested in letting it out unless it's fully sold, or they're putting it back out to play.

PLEASE NOTE... as a programmer, I know exactly what I said, and I would NEVER EVER make a copy of the server for any amount of money to sell or give away.  I too (well, the company, anyway) was a victim of the Buy One, Run 10,000 copies problem and we solved it with Dongles back when.  BUT... I am not everyone.  There WILL BE the people who copy and deal it out like so many playing cards... torrent servers... etc.  So NCSoft isn't going to do this.  They just aren't.  Sorry, but that's just logic (even if theirs is messed up, it's still 1+1=2 here.)

---

I have yet to understand the reason so many people are saying this. There are over 100 people on this forum alone that want their game back and are actively doing something about it. Over 10,000 people were subscribed to the game right before the sunset announcement. Over 20,000 signed the petition. The game was pulling in well over two million per quarter, upwards of 10 million per year.  Given all these things, and the campaigns of the "Save CoH"ers, how can anyone say that not many people want this?
100 isn't enough.
10000 isn't enough.
20000 isn't enough.
10 million isn't enough.
If any of that WAS enough... then it'd still be up, I'd say.  And apparently whatever they were asking was too much, or was intentionally so, or they were being just spiteful/ornery, to let anyone else run it either.
 
Now, let's say, they simply fired PS and did the maintenance thing.  Would we still play it, or would we be so incensed as to what they did to the Devs that we would run away in droves?  Hm?  Perhaps that's for another topic, but it's important to mention... because even that, which would have saved them the studio costs and therefore make a static, no longer developed game, pure profit, sans the tiny amount of server farm costs.  THAT wasn't enough. 
 
Therefore, none of the pertinent numbers were enough, apparently, to keep it running, even at bare bones.

Again, simple numbers and their logic.  Doesn't add up for us, but for them. yep.  "<the game what's name shall not be mentioned> numbers."  That's the mark.  And it simply DOES NOT MATTER that #2-#10 combined = <tgwnsnbm> numbers, THIS game didn't get there by itself.  And I'm not sure that's the be all end all argument for their closing it, but... there it is.

---

Business is weird.  Weird people run them sometimes and they make really bad decision from the stand point of of the consumer/outsider.  What we don't, hardly ever see, immediately is the talks that precede the decision.  That comes weeks, months, years later.  Or never. 

Regardless of why CoH was shut down, the idea that anything OTHER than a complete sale of the IP would allow the game to run again...it's just not gonna be happening, from a business point of view.  There's not enough to keep it RUNNING, so licensing/renting it is just... well, if it were possible, it would be ON.  Sure, they'd've still fired the PS staff, but the game would continue, and they'd get their little chunk of change, and we'd all be happy and everything even though it's a sad shame about Posi, WW, and the rest... or would we... I personally don't know.  I can see my emotions running either way on staying/going.  I would probably look to their guidance as to whether it'd be ok if I played or not, and I'm quite serious when I say a PM from those two at least would go a long way to making my decision.

But regardless of my or anyone's personal feelings, emotions >aren't in this.<  If it was, PS would be alive, and CoH would be here, and I'd be hopping Atlas Park getting candy canes.  Politics, money, and desired outcomes/directions of the company are, as far as NCSoft is concerned.  We're not part of the equation anymore except in a sale, and that by the company buying, not NCSoft.  They're done with us, except as a nuisance, apparently.  The IP/game isn't out of reach yet... just... sequestered in Mordor at the moment. 

I sincerely hope that a sale of the IP is made.  But I think the Star Trek reference is perhaps the best one out there... in that they'll horde the IP for the off chance they might resurrect the game in some form later.  But I don't see years passing where this would work, and I don't see a CoH:TNG happening either.  CoH doesn't work for phones or tablets or consoles... and they and it are now... but who knows if there's a plan for a Phone version of CoH that nobody but NCSoft knew about, and in 6 months, BAM!  CoH:Mobile version!
 
Gawd, that'll suck.  But that just MIGHT BE THE REALITY.  Can any of you say For Sure it is not possible?  Nope.  And that's why they horde their crap.  Either that, or they're meany doodie heads.  Maybe some of both right now... :p
 
---
 
I sincerely, every day, hope I see the words "IT'S SOLD!  COMING BACK ONLINE IN MAY 2013!  AND ALL YOUR STUFF WILL >>**BE THERE**<<!!!!" and Team Wildcard has saved the day.  I honestly do.  Well, the exact wording might be different, but you know what I mean.  Even if we had to start over, I'd be all over it.  I would love to run another Brawler, or make Chillsea again, or redo the Sisters Dawn, as well as Thing of Bigness, Homeslicer, Val The Enchantress, Gruenfeld...
 
But TW is the hope.  If they cannot get it pulled off by some company, then there are only three options:  Phoenix, Heroes and Villains, and Hacked Local Servers.  Because, mark my words, as an NCSoft business decision, CoH is dead, and a sale is the only way it itself is coming back online, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, except the four things just mentioned.  And for my part... GO TEAM WILDCARD, GET THAT BUYER AND MAKE NCSOFT SELL!!!
 
I'm excited to see how this all works out.  Honest.  Because without these four options, I truly have nothing to play anymore.  And it's killin' me inside.
 
/Yeah, yeah, RL, do stuff... I been sick, and CoH is a great analgesiac... I have not had my medicine lately, and I'm grumpy. :(
//And beyond the sale of CoH... GO TEAM HACK THE SERVERS TOGETHER AND GIMME A COPY SO I CAN AT LEAST STREET SWEEP! ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ice Trix on December 26, 2012, 10:40:34 AM
I'd like one too :-X

Just pointing out I'd like a pm for super secret servers too. :whistles:
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on December 26, 2012, 10:52:15 AM
I sincerely, every day, hope I see the words "IT'S SOLD!  COMING BACK ONLINE IN MAY 2013!  AND ALL YOUR STUFF WILL >>**BE THERE**<<!!!!" and Team Wildcard has saved the day.  I honestly do.  Well, the exact wording might be different, but you know what I mean.  Even if we had to start over, I'd be all over it.  I would love to run another Brawler, or make Chillsea again, or redo the Sisters Dawn, as well as Thing of Bigness, Homeslicer, Val The Enchantress, Gruenfeld...

From your mouth to (Deity of your choice)'s ear.
 
Quote
But TW is the hope.  If they cannot get it pulled off by some company, then there are only three options:  Phoenix, Heroes and Villains, and Hacked Local Servers.  Because, mark my words, as an NCSoft business decision, CoH is dead, and a sale is the only way it itself is coming back online, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, except the four things just mentioned.  And for my part... GO TEAM WILDCARD, GET THAT BUYER AND MAKE NCSOFT SELL!!!

We're about to gear up to revise for the next pitch.  We're in this for the long haul.
 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ice Trix on December 26, 2012, 11:02:01 AM
Honestly, I don't care about the old characters. I've mourned them, I'm prepared to recreate them.

Tying the sale of personal data or ability to import of our old stuff seems to me to be complicating it more than needs be.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kurukaze on December 26, 2012, 01:12:50 PM
Honestly, I don't care about the old characters. I've mourned them, I'm prepared to recreate them.

Tying the sale of personal data or ability to import of our old stuff seems to me to be complicating it more than needs be.

Highly depending on which country the deal takes place in. Would be highly complicated in most countries of the European Union, complicated in the US and Canada, done in a glimpse in Gibraltar, Zimbabwe or - maybe even South Korea. Selling NC West/Interactice back to the main NC technically moves our personal data from the US to South Korea. We'd need someone with knowledge about laws concerning personal data in South Korea to get to know if the deal would be complicated there - or not.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 26, 2012, 01:18:38 PM
Honestly, I don't care about the old characters. I've mourned them, I'm prepared to recreate them.

Yes, yes!  I spent 8 years creating more than two dozen level 50+ characters and another dozen somewhere between 1 and 50 - and I would be ecstatic just to be able to start over making all new characters from scratch in issue 24 CoX.

I would spend *thousands* of dollars to get that!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Quinch on December 26, 2012, 01:35:51 PM
Yes, yes!  I spent 8 years creating more than two dozen level 50+ characters and another dozen somewhere between 1 and 50 - and I would be ecstatic just to be able to start over making all new characters from scratch in issue 24 CoX.

I would spend *thousands* of dollars to get that!

Not sure if sarcastic or not, but then again, I'm on the fanatical end of the "it's the journey" spectrum.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Hotaru on December 26, 2012, 02:00:17 PM
Issue 24, issue 0, it's all the same to me. Totally willing to restart from scratch. Totally unwilling to accept the idea I'll never play this game again.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lily Barclay on December 26, 2012, 02:37:01 PM
Not sure if sarcastic or not, but then again, I'm on the fanatical end of the "it's the journey" spectrum.

I didn't read it as sarcastic. Our family decided not to use sentinel because we are totally fine rerolling everyone. The fun of the game is playing it for us. There'd be more to do again if we had to start over.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on December 26, 2012, 08:16:10 PM
Not at all sarcastic.  I love playing the game, and for me the game is taking one character after another from 1 to 50, over the course of 2-3 months per.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 27, 2012, 04:48:22 PM
100 isn't enough.
10000 isn't enough.
20000 isn't enough.
10 million isn't enough.
If any of that WAS enough... then it'd still be up, I'd say.  And apparently whatever they were asking was too much, or was intentionally so, or they were being just spiteful/ornery, to let anyone else run it either.
 
Now, let's say, they simply fired PS and did the maintenance thing.  Would we still play it, or would we be so incensed as to what they did to the Devs that we would run away in droves?  Hm?  Perhaps that's for another topic, but it's important to mention... because even that, which would have saved them the studio costs and therefore make a static, no longer developed game, pure profit, sans the tiny amount of server farm costs.  THAT wasn't enough. 
 
Therefore, none of the pertinent numbers were enough, apparently, to keep it running, even at bare bones.

So, you're saying NOTHING was enough. And where are you getting this information? It seems like you are saying "Well, Z happened so it must have been X + Y." In other words, "The game closed so is must not have been making enough."

Quote
Again, simple numbers and their logic.  Doesn't add up for us, but for them. yep.  "<the game what's name shall not be mentioned> numbers."  That's the mark.  And it simply DOES NOT MATTER that #2-#10 combined = <tgwnsnbm> numbers, THIS game didn't get there by itself.  And I'm not sure that's the be all end all argument for their closing it, but... there it is.

What numbers are you talking about? What logic in what numbers looked good "foir them" and bad "for us." So, you are saying their position is that "if a game doesn't do what WoW does, it should be ditched."? So, your basically repeating what you said before with a bit fluffier rhetoric? Still not answering the question.

I'd have to say that making a PROFIT of 10 million a year is good for just about any company. My point (which I will now make non-sub-textually since not many got it before), is that they had to have had a different reason other than "Oh, well, it's just not making enough money anymore."  The truth is that is was making a decent amount of change for them. It was running well in the black. They lost money when they closed it down and their quarterly income is missing that (roughly) 2.5 mil. So it being a dead game with too few people interested was not the issues. I understand that if "enough" people were interested it would have stayed open. Because if "enough" people were interested (enough being the number to get them to WoW numbers), they wouldn't need the rest of their games.


Quote
Business is weird.  Weird people run them sometimes and they make really bad decision from the stand point of of the consumer/outsider.

So, your stance is "we don't know." Got it.

Quote
Regardless of why CoH was shut down, the idea that anything OTHER than a complete sale of the IP would allow the game to run again...it's just not gonna be happening, from a business point of view.  There's not enough to keep it RUNNING, so licensing/renting it is just... well, if it were possible, it would be ON.
 

Again, what isn't enough to keep a game running? 10 mil a year profit? (Yes, actual profit. 10 mil in the black.) I mean, if a game makes the amount it takes to keep maintenance up, and then makes millions beyond that, that is technically "enough" enough to keep it running.

Quote
Sure, they'd've still fired the PS staff, but the game would continue, and they'd get their little chunk of change, and we'd all be happy and everything even though it's a sad shame about Posi, WW, and the rest... or would we... I personally don't know.  I can see my emotions running either way on staying/going.  I would probably look to their guidance as to whether it'd be ok if I played or not, and I'm quite serious when I say a PM from those two at least would go a long way to making my decision.

Not only is this, as you said before, off point, but it's completely speculative. Sure, IF this had happened some may have quite, but how many and for how long no one can say. It's really about as moot of a point as you can get. I can make a moot point too. If they pushed CoX in internet advertising and commercials (as wow does), they very well could have been making DOUBLE what they were in the end. All the newcomers to the game were brought in by other players. We did their advertising for them.

Quote
I sincerely hope that a sale of the IP is made.  But I think the Star Trek reference is perhaps the best one out there... in that they'll horde the IP for the off chance they might resurrect the game in some form later.  But I don't see years passing where this would work, and I don't see a CoH:TNG happening either.

I think what people mean by referencing Star Trek is the campaign led by fans in the late 60s to save the series from cancellation. Fans like Bjo Trimble and her husband actually convinced the studio to continue making the series. They had nothing to do with TNG which started in 1987.

Quote
CoH doesn't work for phones or tablets or consoles... and they and it are now... but who knows if there's a plan for a Phone version of CoH that nobody but NCSoft knew about, and in 6 months, BAM!  CoH:Mobile version! Gawd, that'll suck.  But that just MIGHT BE THE REALITY.  Can any of you say For Sure it is not possible?  Nope.  And that's why they horde their crap.  Either that, or they're meany doodie heads.  Maybe some of both right now... :p

I, along with others, believe it is a common misconception that MMOs are losing ground to mobile apps. I think V.V. had a great explanation to that somewhere on here.

Quote
But TW is the hope.  If they cannot get it pulled off by some company, then there are only three options:  Phoenix, Heroes and Villains, and Hacked Local Servers.  Because, mark my words, as an NCSoft business decision, CoH is dead, and a sale is the only way it itself is coming back online, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, except the four things just mentioned.

Are you just trying as hard as you can to be a pessimist?

"COH IS DEAD... PERIOD. There is NOTHING that will bring it back... well, nothing but The Phoenix Project, HaV, NCSoft selling the IP, or private or hacked servers. But other than that, NOTHING!!!"
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: tymothymichel on December 27, 2012, 07:05:44 PM
net7 brought back earth and beyond and has run it for years on the downlow....coh can be had again. Show a little faith.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on December 27, 2012, 07:13:19 PM
I know how you feel ... i miss coh and i hope for a server everyday to return the world i so enjoy ... I've searched the net and found this :

http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=244

it's a CoH private server but still in production ... if there where more devs ... i'm sure
it could be done alot sooner ... every bit helps ... the sad part is that now that the retail
game is gone ... it will be alot harder to put the server together ...

it's like the matrix online all over again ...  :'(
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mindscythe on December 27, 2012, 07:22:32 PM
I know how you feel ... i miss coh and i hope for a server everyday to return the world i so enjoy ... I've searched the net and found this :

http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=244

it's a CoH private server but still in production ... if there where more devs ... i'm sure
it could be done alot sooner ... every bit helps ... the sad part is that now that the retail
game is gone ... it will be alot harder to put the server together ...

it's like the matrix online all over again ...  :'(

That link times out... is it just me? I can't get to it from home or from work.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arctic Force. on December 27, 2012, 07:24:17 PM
That site has been down a couple of weeks now. :(
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Hyperstrike on December 28, 2012, 03:59:56 PM
I'm not a betting man.  But I have a hunch that, after all the ill-advised links on the official forums, Segs got a nice, friendly "Cease and desist or we shall sue you into oblivion" letter.

Legal aspects aside, threatening someone with a financially ruinous lawsuit (whether they win or not) tends to shut individuals down really REALLY fast.  Because "deepest pockets wins".
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on December 29, 2012, 04:32:08 AM
So, you're saying NOTHING was enough. And where are you getting this information? It seems like you are saying "Well, Z happened so it must have been X + Y." In other words, "The game closed so is must not have been making enough."

What numbers are you talking about? What logic in what numbers looked good "foir them" and bad "for us." So, you are saying their position is that "if a game doesn't do what WoW does, it should be ditched."? So, your basically repeating what you said before with a bit fluffier rhetoric? Still not answering the question.

I'd have to say that making a PROFIT of 10 million a year is good for just about any company. My point (which I will now make non-sub-textually since not many got it before), is that they had to have had a different reason other than "Oh, well, it's just not making enough money anymore."  The truth is that is was making a decent amount of change for them. It was running well in the black. They lost money when they closed it down and their quarterly income is missing that (roughly) 2.5 mil. So it being a dead game with too few people interested was not the issues. I understand that if "enough" people were interested it would have stayed open. Because if "enough" people were interested (enough being the number to get them to WoW numbers), they wouldn't need the rest of their games.


So, your stance is "we don't know." Got it.
 

Again, what isn't enough to keep a game running? 10 mil a year profit? (Yes, actual profit. 10 mil in the black.) I mean, if a game makes the amount it takes to keep maintenance up, and then makes millions beyond that, that is technically "enough" enough to keep it running.

Not only is this, as you said before, off point, but it's completely speculative. Sure, IF this had happened some may have quite, but how many and for how long no one can say. It's really about as moot of a point as you can get. I can make a moot point too. If they pushed CoX in internet advertising and commercials (as wow does), they very well could have been making DOUBLE what they were in the end. All the newcomers to the game were brought in by other players. We did their advertising for them.

I think what people mean by referencing Star Trek is the campaign led by fans in the late 60s to save the series from cancellation. Fans like Bjo Trimble and her husband actually convinced the studio to continue making the series. They had nothing to do with TNG which started in 1987.

I, along with others, believe it is a common misconception that MMOs are losing ground to mobile apps. I think V.V. had a great explanation to that somewhere on here.

Are you just trying as hard as you can to be a pessimist?

"COH IS DEAD... PERIOD. There is NOTHING that will bring it back... well, nothing but The Phoenix Project, HaV, NCSoft selling the IP, or private or hacked servers. But other than that, NOTHING!!!"

Breaking apart and piecemealing my posts to individually attack each statement, to the point that you purposely broke apart a paragraph that without each other, they are not the same concept.  As well as left out very pertinent information.  I'm rather offended you did that, especially the spinning at the end... That spin is worthy of Fox News, and is better than Cat6e twisted pair.

I am not going to figure out how to chain quote all the way back to the beginning of this thread to get the cohesive flow back together, so I just quoted you... and that's how it formatted.  So be it.
 
I said it *correctly* the first time.  Yes, it's speculation of business... but business is business.  The numbers weren't important, the rule was.  There is a simple rule: You do not cut off the hand that feeds you.  Obviously, they think CoH isn't feeding them enough, and it cost too much in resources in some way.  X+Y=Z.  The how and why of that result isn't terribly important when you get down to it, from our side of things.  That Team Wildcard succeeds is.  Or that Phoenix and/or HaV do.  Those three are it.  Nothing else is going to get CoH back, not even a renting/leasing.  As such, indeed, CoH is dead without being sold to someone else.   WITH a sale, it thrives again, and I'll be so very happy when it does.

And notice, I said when.  I still believe.  Regardless of what I'm speculating, theorizing, etc. I am one of the hopeful masses that thinks CoH will again be on the air, so to speak.

And if you had read the response to Waya in that same post, you might have a 'feeling' for why I continued the way I did, to fully explain myself.  I only suspect you didn't read it because you didn't quote that, among other bits of mine you didn't quote, and that would have given much more in the way of framing my responses to you.  Without that, my responses to you make a little less sense, I believe.  Context IS important, friend.

In any event... none of that matters.  Not me nor you.  Because what it is is what it is.  Speculation isn't important, and I guess I'll just stop trying to make anyone think about/understand the business side of things, and let them think Mr. Kim, et al, has a personal vendetta against us... which makes me ponder... why did they bother leaving the servers up for three months?  Even allowing a player to organized and get an end of game event on Beta three days before the end itself?  I mean... why not, when they shut down Paragon Studios and sent everyone home, just unplug everything then, and just process refunds?  Hm?  I mean, vengeance is theirs and all that...
 
The answer is: it's business, but they're not stupid.  And it's not a vendetta.  It's. Just. Buisness.
 
Sooner people get that, the sooner we can get CoH outta their hands, k?

--

By the way.. it's $10M *revenue* per year.  NOT PROFIT.  It's important to note this.
http://unsubject.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/coh_subs_q2_2012.png (http://unsubject.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/coh_subs_q2_2012.png)
from here:
http://unsubject.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/city-of-heroes-villains-an-end-of-the-world-event/ (http://unsubject.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/city-of-heroes-villains-an-end-of-the-world-event/)
Basically, about $2.5M per quarter (or $10M per year) the settled in number that could (speculatively, be mindful) be 'relied' upon.  And there's a thread or two about these parts saying the same thing.  That's a huge difference in making an argument against my post.  $10M PROFIT, they are somewhat stupid.  $10 income vs 8.2M outlay... not so stupid.  Not helpful, mind, but not stupid.  And it brings about the PS closing as a wedge to keep the game going, because all of a sudden $8M (Make up a number if you like, this is the one I remember) is now 'freed up' to just... acquire into the banks.  This is where the closing of the studio is a thing to mention... and how we might have felt about playing on, but... no more Paragon Studios, no more new stuff, it's just now a final I23 game.  But hey, it'll be there... right?  Too bad about the staff and all, but hey, I can FLY.  :|
 
Oh, and one last thing... that $2.5M per quarter?  Where is the guarantee of that?  How long will it stay there?  Can you say that FOR SURE.  The trend is overall downwards... How can you be certain, when their fortune tellers say otherwise?
 
That's how that all happens.  Again, it is business.  This is what they do.
 
And it sucks for us sometimes.  This is one of those times.  >.<
 
/I know a little about Star Trek and Bjo... Bjo is without a doubt a huge reason TNG, et al, were even around, do not lessen her involvement in getting those shows up.  She may not have had her hands in the works, but her work caused them to be a thing later.  That is the IP hording aspect I was talking about.  Not the campaign to get another season, the long haul "Maybe later we can revisit" idea.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on December 29, 2012, 04:17:31 PM
The answer is: it's business, but they're not stupid.
The proof of their intelligence, or lack of same, remains to be seen.

It's. Just. Buisness.
I've got nothing against you at all, but I'm going to tell you what I told someone else on this board.

You have just spoken one of the small handful of phrases that automatically anger me. It is a phrase that has been used as an excuse for far too many terrible things, much like "I was only following orders". Its a way for certain people to emotionally distance themselves from the human consequences of the choices that they make so they can either sleep at night, or get critics to shut up.

I hate the phrase. I despise it. I will automatically rail against it every time I see it used to defend a highly questionable business decision, and funnily enough, that's where it usually seems to pop up. And if I had my way, any time a business-person used that phrase, the image of Mark Harmon would magically appear and slap them sharply in the back of the head.
 
Sooner people get that, the sooner we can get CoH outta their hands, k?
I doubt that. In the end, only two things will pry that IP out of their hands: 1) Money, and 2) Timing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on December 29, 2012, 05:36:18 PM
Indeed, they seem less than good with their thinking these days, with the animosity they've generated, distrust, and their stock plummeting to the level it has in just a couple of months... They don't look terribly smart right now. 

But, in regards to that, just think of the huge amount of loss they'd have experienced had they done the lightswtich on Aug 31.  They would be GONE, or I would like to theorize that to be the case.  Everyone would bail, because what company is that dumb?

Hence, we get 3 months to soften the blow.  A business move, to be sure, and one that took even a tiny spark of intelligence... maybe. :p

---

Well, I can understand not liking the phrase.  I also don't like "I was following orders" either, but the difference between harming people with bullets or such because some higher up said so in violation of human decency, much less Geneva conventions, is quite a bit larger a thing to hate upon than the Business Phrase.

But when it comes to the runnings of a company, the Phrase is what Companies do.  Ethics, emotions, etc, doesn't matter.  Ok, ok, yes they do, but only with two things: Laws to comply with, and will it cause loss of business.  If those are satisfied, then this happens:  "Gotta do business.  Yay, doing business.  More business, do more profit.  Yay more money.  Oohh... this isn't doing business, making money.  Can't do business like that no more (whyever that's the case)."  And then the dreaded Phrase shows up, and something gets turned off/canceled/stopped production/?.  And that's the way of the business of Capitalism... or more correctly a For Profit Business.  So many other stories of ethical/emotional opposition to the ways of Business practicing are out there.  This is but one of many. 
 
And I will say this:  If you run a business of any large import... these are the things you will have to deal with.  Unpopular choices to save the buisness.  It does happen.  It will happen.  If you have never done it, then you don't know why it has to happen in the first place, and we get to this point of discussing it.  It's a old tale, overall, this Phrase of Business, the details just get changed with each telling.

And it sucks, that Phrase, and that philosophy, and I keep repeating that, and nobody cares to understand or like it.  Which is fine, sometimes "that's just people. "  :)  But For Profit Businesses are in it to make money.  Anything else... well, they're not a charity.  And that's the bottom line... not a charity, a buisness, for profit, make money... almost like a hungry pig...

---

You are 100% correct, in that it will take money and timing to get the IP, but that also means Buisness has to be made.  So I stand by that statement.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on December 29, 2012, 05:44:37 PM
(Separately posting for a reason)

Oh, and hey... if y'all want, we can start a whole other thread about this whole idea...  We can cut and paste (or have the mods do it) these posts and continue there.

I, for one, would like to stop talking about the evil empire called NCSoft and how they are poopie heads and all that, and get back to the real reason for this thread's existence:

When can I run a local private server to get my CoH fix?  Any news on that front?  :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: tymothymichel on December 30, 2012, 12:56:59 PM
How dare you derail the tread by returning to the original topic......shame!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on December 31, 2012, 05:01:52 AM
And notice, I said when.  I still believe.  Regardless of what I'm speculating, theorizing, etc. I am one of the hopeful masses that thinks CoH will again be on the air, so to speak.

I do apologize for the attack if that's what it seamed it was. I just think it is irresponsible to speculate on something you simply can't be sure of. To essentially say that "businesses will do what is good for the business" is just simply wrong. I just can't agree with it. And saying the things you are saying just seems out of place in this forum.

All things I've read, here on the forums and elsewhere, suggest a 2.7 million (+/-) actual profit per quarter. Not revenue. But even 1.5 million in profit seems silly to simply cut off for little to no reason. Streamlining makes things easy, but can cost you a little in the long run, so it seems a tad illogical. But then again, I know very little about corporations.

I consider myself an astute observer of people though, and I do know a lot about them and why they do things. And I know corporations are run by people. I still, to this day, feel that there was someone high up that pushed for the closing for a completely different reason that what would be good for the company. 1 million or 10 million, they lost it and the only logical reason is someones stupidity. And I also feel that their pride is what is keeping them from selling.

Again, I do apologize if I came off as any less that civil. I truly hope that one day we are all, you and I included, back in our home city.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on December 31, 2012, 03:28:31 PM
How dare you derail the tread by returning to the original topic......shame!
I know, right?  So silly of me. Heh.

---

Pulsar, all is well.  There is a chance you're right, of course, for all we know.  If it were a 3 or 4 man operation, sure, but... big business... it's harder to swallow, I guess, that it could possibly be. 

I just want to fly again, in the city I love.

---

Ok, Back on topic, y'all. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on December 31, 2012, 03:52:17 PM
...is better than Cat6e twisted pair.

Best. Analogy. EVAR! :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Nafaustu on December 31, 2012, 04:05:24 PM
This thread, the conduct in this thread (heated discussion, that moved toward the edges of civil, then right the hell back into civil to the point of 'hey, we should talk about this someplace else! :D' ), is exactly why we ARE going to get our  game back in one form or another.   I'm still constantly amazed by this community and proud to be a part of it.

To contribute to the actual thread I would like to say I haven't heard anything about an emu.  I am also uncertain if anyone made the game solo playable (I feel like that might be even more difficult then an emu!  But I know nothing of programming).   

I know our new, favorite task force is still running with its team, but that's not exactly on point.

I too would like to fly again, so have we any news?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Electric-Knight on December 31, 2012, 08:48:52 PM
---

Well, I can understand not liking the phrase.  I also don't like "I was following orders" either, but the difference between harming people with bullets or such because some higher up said so in violation of human decency, much less Geneva conventions, is quite a bit larger a thing to hate upon than the Business Phrase.

But when it comes to the runnings of a company, the Phrase is what Companies do.  Ethics, emotions, etc, doesn't matter.  Ok, ok, yes they do, but only with two things: Laws to comply with, and will it cause loss of business.  If those are satisfied, then this happens:  "Gotta do business.  Yay, doing business.  More business, do more profit.  Yay more money.  Oohh... this isn't doing business, making money.  Can't do business like that no more (whyever that's the case)."  And then the dreaded Phrase shows up, and something gets turned off/canceled/stopped production/?.  And that's the way of the business of Capitalism... or more correctly a For Profit Business.  So many other stories of ethical/emotional opposition to the ways of Business practicing are out there.  This is but one of many. 
 
And I will say this:  If you run a business of any large import... these are the things you will have to deal with.  Unpopular choices to save the buisness.  It does happen.  It will happen.  If you have never done it, then you don't know why it has to happen in the first place, and we get to this point of discussing it.  It's a old tale, overall, this Phrase of Business, the details just get changed with each telling.

And it sucks, that Phrase, and that philosophy, and I keep repeating that, and nobody cares to understand or like it.  Which is fine, sometimes "that's just people. "  :)  But For Profit Businesses are in it to make money.  Anything else... well, they're not a charity.  And that's the bottom line... not a charity, a buisness, for profit, make money... almost like a hungry pig...

---

I'm just going to kindly step in here and say to you, Houtex, (hiya!) that you're making and perpetuating the same mistake/deception that fuels that phrase and, more importantly, the wrongs that people following that code commit (I'm not simply referring to a video game being closed down... and not even just a talented team being fired).
In order to be a "For Profit" business, it is not necessary to adhere only to the laws and principles of so long as it is legal and profitable.
More importantly, a business that adheres to more ethical, humane and emotional considerations is not automatically going to be nonprofitable or even not as profitable.

Anyway, the biggest reason why people hate that phrase (and code of conduct) is because there is more than enough profit and wealth to be had without removing the human element. And the complete and utter reality that money is not the be all end all. And that other people, the impact we have on each other and our roles in history and in the future are all important and can be taken into consideration while also lining our pockets and taking care of our families and such.

"It's only business" is a lying phrase born out of laziness by power-gaming, selfish egotists that believe their own hype.

The truth is... there's pretty much nothing more personal than "business"... because "business" is money and money is the lifeblood of modern society...
So, saying "it's only business" is just excusing away the fact that you (the universal business you) are willing to behave like a marauding, savage beast in order to take care of yourself and your own seed, at the cost of anyone and everything else, to the best of your ability (laws and profits, instead of agility and claws/fangs).

 :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Profit on December 31, 2012, 11:28:06 PM
Quote
In order to be a "For Profit" business, it is not necessary to adhere only to the laws and principles of so long as it is legal and profitable.

I would also like to say that to be "for profit" it really should be in my best interest as well.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Waya on December 31, 2012, 11:39:39 PM
Except that in the recent "reorganization" notice, wherein NCSoft announces it is selling NCSoft Interactive (NCSoft West) to itself, NCSoft made the official statement that "nothing regarding the selling of CoH has been decided yet" or words to that effect.

It is entirely possible they are lying to us again.

It is also possible that someone higher up than the person who issued the statement that "all options have been exhausted" has made an executive decision that they will see if a buyer more to their liking emerges.

Based on the fact that Team Wildcard is dedicated to leaving no stone unturned, we are operating on the basis that possibility number two is true.

I totally get what you're saying. At heart, we agree. The BEST of all possible options would be if some other company completely bought up the I.P. rights to CoH, ran it in an intelligent manner that actually pleased the player-base, and kept future development going, so that we'd see even more content coming in the future. Like I said, that's one possibility (and probably the best one, in my opinion), all I'm asking is if anyone has approached the option that I was curious about.

Options as I see them:
1.) No more CoH EVER
2.) A similar game that isn't CoH, but the only real difference is the I.P.
3.) A limited, "maintenance" version of CoH that we can play, but no new content in the future
4.) Some other company buying it all up, and keeping it running for us

...obviously, those choices are increasingly desireable to me as the list goes on...but I'll take what I can get...just hoping it isn't the first option!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on December 31, 2012, 11:46:29 PM
I would also like to say that to be "for profit" it really should be in my best interest as well.

So are you, like, forcibly restricted from attending events like charity bake sales and church bingos? Y'know, cause they're run by not-for-profit organizations?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on January 01, 2013, 05:29:03 AM
I'm just going to kindly step in here and say to you, Houtex, (hiya!) that you're making and perpetuating the same mistake/deception that fuels that phrase and, more importantly, the wrongs that people following that code commit (I'm not simply referring to a video game being closed down... and not even just a talented team being fired).
In order to be a "For Profit" business, it is not necessary to adhere only to the laws and principles of so long as it is legal and profitable.
More importantly, a business that adheres to more ethical, humane and emotional considerations is not automatically going to be nonprofitable or even not as profitable.

Anyway, the biggest reason why people hate that phrase (and code of conduct) is because there is more than enough profit and wealth to be had without removing the human element. And the complete and utter reality that money is not the be all end all. And that other people, the impact we have on each other and our roles in history and in the future are all important and can be taken into consideration while also lining our pockets and taking care of our families and such.

"It's only business" is a lying phrase born out of laziness by power-gaming, selfish egotists that believe their own hype.

The truth is... there's pretty much nothing more personal than "business"... because "business" is money and money is the lifeblood of modern society...
So, saying "it's only business" is just excusing away the fact that you (the universal business you) are willing to behave like a marauding, savage beast in order to take care of yourself and your own seed, at the cost of anyone and everything else, to the best of your ability (laws and profits, instead of agility and claws/fangs).

 :P


Yes, pretty much exactly that.  Businesses get into that mode as a survival tactic of some sort.  And that is how that evil phrase happens... "Hey, we're sorry this is going to suck, but, you know, needs of the many and all that... so... yeah.  It's just..."

Well.  The point is that it is a shame that businesses frequently do this when they perceive, or actually are in, a losing situation, but that's how it works.  If the core doesn't survive, then what was the point of being nice again?

And they sometimes preempt things to prevent (again, perceived) losses in the first place, rather than chase after the "maybe it'll turn around" possibility.  I know... I am still payin' for believing that will happen.

It's not without some measure of personal experience in this sort of a matter.  I chased.  I lost.  I am still regretting that many years later... one day I'll climb out of the hole.

And *because* of that *personal* experience... I know exactly what I would do if I saw something that was going the very wrong way, and would NOT make the same emotional commitment to continue.  I would bail, and screw ANYONE who doesn't like it... this is MY future, not yours.

While I don't actually know... This is what I suspect.  They didn't like the direction it was headed, and decided that they had enough.

The *oddity* is the no sale part, to me, not the shutting down.  The shutting down is an easy thing to 'get' on my end.  The sale isn't... which is where I suspect either that 'maybe later' IP hoarding is what's going on, OR they're waiting to get a better price (I find that a little out of reach myself), OR they are, in fact, going to restart it under this newly formed NA thing, and just let MotherCorp get their slice to add to the incoming monies.

Or something I haven't thought of.

Or they hate us. 

I dunno.  I am just itching to get movement in any direction now, as I am absolutely irritated at the situation... I feel like a CoH junkie these days... *starts scratching his inner elbows nervously*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on January 01, 2013, 09:35:18 AM
Weren't we going to try to get back to the original topic? Or are we going to keep talking about business?


I want to host a server on my now useless laptop! (Hell, I might even save up money for a server.)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on January 01, 2013, 07:56:54 PM
So, I found an Emu.....









(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.charlespaddockzoo.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F02%2Femu-300x300.jpg)


but I don't think he's going to be much help.

 ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on January 01, 2013, 11:40:44 PM
So, I found an Emu.....









(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.charlespaddockzoo.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F02%2Femu-300x300.jpg)


but I don't think he's going to be much help.

 ;D




Frankly, that IS more on topic then business. It has to do with an EMU, after all! =P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on January 02, 2013, 12:48:08 AM
I found some REALLY spiffy emus!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RVZvUJDTUE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RVZvUJDTUE)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: mikoroshi on January 02, 2013, 04:59:05 AM
This whole thread is quite
(https://i.imgur.com/8vV6d.jpg)

 8)
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on January 02, 2013, 05:03:33 AM
I found some REALLY spiffy emus!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RVZvUJDTUE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RVZvUJDTUE)

Wow... I never knew other species besides humans used club dancing to initiate mating.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on January 02, 2013, 05:08:42 AM
I love you guys. And that's not the codeine cough syrup talking, either.  8)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: corvus1970 on January 02, 2013, 05:10:05 AM
So, I found an Emu.....

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.charlespaddockzoo.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F02%2Femu-300x300.jpg)

but I don't think he's going to be much help.

 ;D

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.corvusonline.net%2Fhilarity%2FAHanniganKitten02.jpg)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on January 03, 2013, 02:57:13 AM
Now, I expect someone to 'shop that where that cat severely lacerates her face in terror.  Because, y'know, that's the immediate thought that I had upon viewing it... it's all fun and games until the cat says "Ok, bag of 'nope' here please."
 
/Although, honestly, who'd do that to poor Alyson?  Wouldn't be prudent, hm?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Electric-Knight on January 03, 2013, 06:18:03 AM
Houtex, RE: our exchange - I agree and understand. ;)
The biggest problem is the price of failure and the fear and results of that are what really ramps up selfishness/self-survival.

Anyway...

Weren't we going to try to get back to the original topic? Or are we going to keep talking about business?
Hey! It's only business!  :D
 :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on January 03, 2013, 09:36:31 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-bV1QOwmL-xg%2FT14XlFh-ipI%2FAAAAAAAATT4%2FHVYvYFA9woE%2Fs1600%2FEmu.jpg)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on January 03, 2013, 04:44:25 PM
Is anyone else here wondering when we'll see a children's book about emu's from VV, now?

What? Just me? Oh.

*casually goes back to whatever it was I was doing*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on January 04, 2013, 01:19:30 AM
Pay no attention to the old fart behind the curtain.  I'm just obfuscating.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: eabrace on January 04, 2013, 01:27:06 AM
Pay no attention to the fart behind the curtain.
Somehow I read that entirely wrong the first time I looked at it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on January 04, 2013, 02:32:53 AM
Pay no attention to the fart behind the curtain.
Somehow I read that entirely wrong the first time I looked at it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSlkO41Y9I4&t=1m27s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSlkO41Y9I4&t=1m27s)
Pardon me...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on January 05, 2013, 07:50:22 PM
So, any ;private servers yet?

><

Heh.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Whiteseeker on January 06, 2013, 12:16:53 AM
PM me when there is one. I was just talking to my wife of how the hell we can make what we have on our comps to be able to play again.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on January 06, 2013, 12:36:10 AM
For the first time I have to say what I would love to see is the code released to the general public.

Let it loose so there are 5000 servers out there. Then good luck finding them all.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on January 06, 2013, 12:56:07 AM
I like the idea of civil disobedience. Run it like Runescape or something.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on January 06, 2013, 01:00:15 AM
For the first time I have to say what I would love to see is the code released to the general public.

Let it loose so there are 5000 servers out there. Then good luck finding them all.

Run free!

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.4dacresemuoil.com%2FImages%2Femu-chicks.jpg)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on January 06, 2013, 01:31:42 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQM_MyoIZ0c
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Adrenalin on January 06, 2013, 03:25:31 AM
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=heathersanimations.com%2Fbirds%2Femus2s.gif) (https://images.weserv.nl/?url=heathersanimations.com%2Fbirds%2Femus2s.gif) (https://images.weserv.nl/?url=heathersanimations.com%2Fbirds%2Femus2s.gif)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Profit on January 06, 2013, 03:57:26 AM
So are you, like, forcibly restricted from attending events like charity bake sales and church bingos? Y'know, cause they're run by not-for-profit organizations?

One would think, but no, those actually work out to my best interest. Bake sales because they are full of wonderful scrumptious delights and bingo is just fun!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on January 06, 2013, 07:46:26 PM
 >:(

it makes no sense that NCsoft would have anything to do with SEGS being offline for these past weeks ... i mean there are so many wow servers yet you don't see blizzard trying to shut them down ...

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/7641525

here is the torrent link for SEGS server ... that's the good news ... the bad news is that
the client that works in conjunction with it could only be downloaded from their site ...

i'll try to upload a copy of the server and client ... when i have a chance ...



Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on January 06, 2013, 09:13:43 PM
One would think, but no, those actually work out to my best interest. Bake sales because they are full of wonderful scrumptious delights and bingo is just fun!

Woohoo! In your face, charities! :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on January 17, 2013, 11:49:57 AM
So... has there been any progress on this sort of thing?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mister Bison on January 17, 2013, 12:42:20 PM
So... has there been any progress on this sort of thing?
What's the difficult word in "not public" ?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on January 17, 2013, 01:12:37 PM
I had to ask.... it's not like there's a PM going around with such great information...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Septipheran on January 17, 2013, 01:31:50 PM
So... has there been any progress on this sort of thing?


Also, we're still in the process of working on reverse engineering the server, and progress is coming along. As you can imagine, implementing a brand new server from scratch is something that will take a while, but hopefully we'll have something to show for our efforts before too terribly long.
Quote
Ah, and one more PSA:  Several people noticed that Nemerle's SEGS web site recently went down. There has been some speculation about why, including some rumors of him receiving a cease and desist (C&D) order. I contacted him and he told me that this is not the case; he is simply having some issues with the web host and hopes to have the site back up soon.

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7585.0.html
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nedthegreat on January 23, 2013, 02:49:43 AM
Where is this list to get on? I want a PM too!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on January 23, 2013, 03:01:24 AM
Where is this list to get on? I want a PM too!

Keep in mind it's theoretical at this time. There is no existing private server - but it's being worked on.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JKPhage on January 26, 2013, 01:54:26 AM
Theoretical though it may be, I've been truly lost without being able to visit Paragon City whenever I need to escape for a while. If someone is making a notification list, I'd love to be on it so I can be in line to return to the city when/if it becomes possible. I feel like I haven't seen some of my best friends in ages.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on January 26, 2013, 03:01:10 PM
We were discussing this in my Friday night group, last night. There is still a general malaise as we struggle to find a new game. ATM, we're moving in the direction of Borderlands 2, but that's not a replacement, just a distraction.

When a private replacement goes up, there will, no doubt, be a long line of people ready to sign up.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JKPhage on January 27, 2013, 06:36:23 AM
We were discussing this in my Friday night group, last night. There is still a general malaise as we struggle to find a new game. ATM, we're moving in the direction of Borderlands 2, but that's not a replacement, just a distraction.

When a private replacement goes up, there will, no doubt, be a long line of people ready to sign up.

I know the feeling. I tried Champions just a bit but honestly I can't stand the visual style, it just lacks the charm of CoX, the gameplay is a bit too action platformer style for me compared to how CoX played, and in general the power selection just feels far too restrictive in comparison. "Sure, you can make an ice elemental hero, but he WILL be a tank and that's it. Also if you want darkness powers I hope you don't mind being a 'controller'." It makes me feel like I can't really make my own hero.

The sad part is, the closest I can find to CoX in terms of gameplay is WOW. I know it's kind of frowned upon by a lot of people in the CoX community, but it has a similar feel, at least at the lower levels that I can see. It definitely lacks the freedom and creativity of CoX though.

I'm tempted to try the new All Points Bulletin game simply because the character creation is so robust. Even if it's a shooter and I'll be terrible at it, I'd still feel a lot more free there than I do in any other game. I never realized just HOW much I appreciated the costume creator until I didn't have it anymore.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Steele Magnolia on January 30, 2013, 03:08:27 PM
When this happens I would really appreciate a PM.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on January 30, 2013, 03:35:55 PM
Pm? Hell, I want a full marching band and then I will set up a server in Paraguay.

Seriously - I am putting money away in a CoH server fund - so when/if it happens I have a couple of thousand ready to go on the spot.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on January 30, 2013, 06:24:12 PM
The sad part is, the closest I can find to CoX in terms of gameplay is WOW. I know it's kind of frowned upon by a lot of people in the CoX community, but it has a similar feel, at least at the lower levels that I can see. It definitely lacks the freedom and creativity of CoX though.

I don't want to turn this into a "coming out party," but WoW has kept drawing me back, though never to the level that CoH did. I will never subscribe, but I'll probably buy myself a 60 day time card for my birthday.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Matt Bold on January 30, 2013, 08:48:22 PM
Strangely, WOW has been able to fill the void of general MMO.  Actually, if you haven't played WOW or havent played for several years I would give it a shot.  I stopped playing WOW in 2004, had a lot of gripes, and just started to play again.  Almost all of my original gripes with the game were resolved.  There are now markers on the map for where to complete quests, and there is now a "Dunegon finder" for levels 15+ that will automatically put you in a cross-server group in order to tackle an instanced mission.  Also, you can get a mount (something to ride to make you travel faster) at 20 rather than 40.  General leveling has also been quickened.  I have also personally found that there are a lot of helpful people.  There are the sterotypical people, but also remember there is a larger selection of people.

My gripes that I have left:

-The "Holy Trinity" is the only the way to go.  Healers heal tanks that protect the DPS who kill the enemy.  A bad healer or bad tank will destroy any team. 

-No "controller" equivalent character

-Short wait times for high population servers.

-Tanks are generally squishy.  A tank needs a healer to be effective.

-Until you get top armor, for the first 50-60 levels your characters clothes/armor doesnt match.  My healer right now has yellow robes, furry black boots, gloves that look like skeleton hands, brown leather looking shoulder pads, and a neon green viking helmet.  Oh....and he is an overweight orange humanoid panda.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on January 31, 2013, 12:26:34 AM
-Until you get top armor, for the first 50-60 levels your characters clothes/armor doesnt match.  My healer right now has yellow robes, furry black boots, gloves that look like skeleton hands, brown leather looking shoulder pads, and a neon green viking helmet.  Oh....and he is an overweight orange humanoid panda.

... I totally want to create a version of this in Icon right now....

Also, add me to the list of people who would like a PM if/when any sort of CoX server gets running.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Baja on January 31, 2013, 04:34:25 AM
Please sign me up for the PM list if this ever happens.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: McCreed on January 31, 2013, 04:44:39 AM
I'm sorry if I missed the answer to this question in the dozen or so pages that precede this one, but is it likely that someone's going to go to the bother of creating a mass PM contact list as opposed to just starting a new thread in these forums and saying "Here it is"?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on January 31, 2013, 12:23:28 PM
Depends on how public they want to make the announcement.  A big "Here it is!" announcement is more likely to be noticed by NCSoft and shut down.

(P.S., WEN DUN PM ME 2 PLX)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on January 31, 2013, 03:02:46 PM
It depends.

If this ever does occur I  will be contacting server farms in Paraguay - as the USA sees them as a festering pit of pirates and that seems like just the sort of folks needed to counter a festering bunch of brainless executives.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on January 31, 2013, 03:07:34 PM
When it comes time to help fund setting up servers or whatever else this project needs I'll be there to help however I can.

I think so long as the code is safe and in good hands we should start out quietly with servers in NA, if those get shut down THEN we move to Somalia or wherever.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Nightwatch on January 31, 2013, 03:59:49 PM
Don't forget your UK allies!  I would kill to play anything like CoH again!  Wife will kill me if I spend anymore time moping around the house sighing!!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on January 31, 2013, 09:20:27 PM
I mean this with the utmost seriousness - if we can manage to get a server running - I will personally pay to start having a stand-alone version developed.

I know there are people out there who will do it - I think a small fee of $10 - 20k should do it and then I would post the code out in the wild in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on January 31, 2013, 10:20:22 PM
I guess by now at this point I really did expect to see a private server show up or some form of update as to when you might expect to see one. I half expected to see more over at the segs forum helping with that project the day after the shutdown announcement. But from what I can tell either nobody is helping nemerle with that or its just being kept completely out of public eye not to attract attention so it looks as if little progress is being made.

It really does suck. SWG, WoW, EQ and many others have tons of private servers but so far we don't know of even 1 for any of ncsofts shutdown titles. Atleast you can still play EQ and WoW on official servers.

I'm really missing incarnate trials and msrs right now. I have had fun in champions making tons of alts but its beginning to get stale now like CoX was before they started adding new zones, trials and end game level tfs. You just can't keep doing the same content over and over without anything new to do or anything meaningful to do with characters at max level.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on February 01, 2013, 03:58:51 AM
I hate to say it, but.. be patient.  It's only been 2 months.  CoH took 10 years to get where it was.  Server code like that is gonna be quite a while.

Just think of the costumes.  That alone... All that amount of data just to get one character clothed... yeesh.  And then the dynamics of the slots and powers and defenses and this and that... and the AI... and instances...

Yeah.  It is gonna be quite a while for a ground start to emulation of semi-decentness for beta testing.  If it ever comes about. 

/I hope it does.  Truly.  Options are good.  Even if some companies wouldn't like it... :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on February 01, 2013, 05:45:46 AM
Man...never thought I could miss a game so bad.    Just simple stuff like running through Steel Canyon and hearing that music playing.  Bleh....

I would be more than happy if there ever is a version to play by myself on my own PC.    :(     More than that would be gravy...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on February 01, 2013, 09:53:22 PM
I hate to say it, but.. be patient.  It's only been 2 months.  CoH took 10 years to get where it was.  Server code like that is gonna be quite a while.

Just think of the costumes.  That alone... All that amount of data just to get one character clothed... yeesh.  And then the dynamics of the slots and powers and defenses and this and that... and the AI... and instances...

Yeah.  It is gonna be quite a while for a ground start to emulation of semi-decentness for beta testing.  If it ever comes about. 

/I hope it does.  Truly.  Options are good.  Even if some companies wouldn't like it... :)

Patient I am but it looks even less like its going to happen at this point. When everything began I half expected people to rush to the emulation project but now in addition to emulation we have 2 games being worked on. I know this is going to piss someone off but logic would tell me to work on emulation since it isn't going to take as long as developing an entire game. Because going a year or 2 years without cox just seems maddening and then the 3-5 years that it's going to take to even have an alpha ready game to test is like an eternity.

I sit here now and just ask myself why someone hasn't bought the game yet or why a game company wouldn't sell a project they deemed as a failure.

I guess I just need a morale booster...

Sigh.. I just wish I knew a way to help get this show on the move.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on February 01, 2013, 10:34:14 PM
Heroes vs Vigilantes,

More want to work within the law than want tofind a law that works for them.

An emulator is at best chaotic good and many don't see themselves that way.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on February 01, 2013, 10:37:03 PM
It could be Neutral good.

"It makes people happy. Doesn't stick it to the man because we aren't rallying to hurt anyone, and it doesn't abide 100% by regulations. I feel NEUTRAL GOOD about this."

:3

I am really tempted to make a set of image macros for all 9 alignments now. Sigh.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on February 01, 2013, 11:32:47 PM
Heroes are Chaotic Good. Otherwise they wouldn't be heroes but Powers Division. :p
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on February 02, 2013, 02:48:05 AM
Patient I am but it looks even less like its going to happen at this point. When everything began I half expected people to rush to the emulation project but now in addition to emulation we have 2 games being worked on. I know this is going to piss someone off but logic would tell me to work on emulation since it isn't going to take as long as developing an entire game. Because going a year or 2 years without cox just seems maddening and then the 3-5 years that it's going to take to even have an alpha ready game to test is like an eternity.

I sit here now and just ask myself why someone hasn't bought the game yet or why a game company wouldn't sell a project they deemed as a failure.

I guess I just need a morale booster...

Sigh.. I just wish I knew a way to help get this show on the move.

If you want it quick... someone needs to get someone the server codes so they can quickly form the local variant server. 

Otherwise, the things will simply take a little longer than  'yesterday'.

I feel ya.  I still don't understand NCSoft's being hoarders like that, except for the 'maybe we reuse/sell bits of IP for movies or books/restart/sequel' possibles... Even then. 

But I have a motorcycle and family, thankfully, and they're keepin' me occupied while I miss CoH.  Isn't quite the same, but it is something.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tahquitz on February 02, 2013, 03:54:00 AM
The thought of getting enthusiastic about posting what's essentially a wink and a nudge on a forum to get a "golden ticket" invite into a PM list that may or may not be formed to get onto a shortlist of candidates that might be interviewed or otherwise tested to try out possible test copies of programs that could eventually result in hamstringing a number of similar functions together to successfully trick the CoH Client into running again is just too many levels of abstraction away from the end result to make much sense for me to get excited about at this point of time.

I get the frustration at my deduction: well, how else can I get involved in it?  It seems like nothing is happening at all.

The problem is the same as it was in September: the NCSoft folks (most likely) are already aware of ex-players and their interest in running private servers of City of Heroes (as they've dealt with from prior closings, which would be foolish to ignore from a business perspective), so discussing milestones towards development of the Client against their Terms and Conditions in such public areas where it's easy for us to read of it isn't going to be fruitful for those who can do something proactively towards this end.  We're all effectively out of the loop, which isn't totally a bad thing at this time.

But all the same, money would make such efforts faster, and Titan Network does have a donation button on their front page.  But that connection is being drawn by me, and it's a false one: any kind of connection from Titan staff (expressed or implied) towards those donations going towards emulating a City of Heroes server on this site will most likely result in Titan Network getting shut down (ISP gets C&D'd, or those who operate the site are sued out of existence), let alone any other group doing that work for that matter.  The same goes for allowing discussion to occur towards such efforts, announcing results from it, or hosting files concerning this.  All fatal ideas for Titan Network.  Then NCSoft's victory in shutting our world down isn't just complete, it's absolute.  Sure, this is a little "umbrella road", but the thought of reorganizing somewhere else once more after Titan Network is shut down ...to have to go through all of that again, it wearies me.  (And I'm sure the Plan Z folks don't want to find their forums and file repos disappearing overnight either.)

So, we can't offer up any effort or cash.  What's left to do?

If you want to pour your effort into anything at all in these next few months (or years, depending on your energy and aptitude) into Post-City-of-Heroes efforts, either Task Force Hail Mary or a Plan Z project (or both) is all you got.  Nothing else is possible to organize on her-- Sorry, we're supposed to be positive about this: "If you can think of something else, let us know!"  Really.  We're running on fumes at this point, tactically.  I hate to use this phrase, but as far as ideas, Titan Network's staff were the smartest guys in the room at the time of the closure...  If there was something we could have done that was effective in saving the game or resurrecting it without crossing legal or ethical lines, (particularly in that finite timeline and the knowledge we had at that point, which is still what we know now for the most part) they've pretty much exhausted it as an actionable outcome already.

But I'm hoping against hope too that some sunshine comes our way finally, which is why I bother to check in at all.  The love is still definetly there.  And I like the thought of playing one of the Plan Z games again sometime in the future with you guys at the very least.

Disclosure: I am nobody.  I have no stake, position, or role in any of the projects (Either of the Project Z's, TFHM, or Emulation... became a full time employee last month at my work and I'm taking 8 semester units in college which starts up again next week: I do care, I just don't have the time), I'm just a reader making presumptions... many of which might actually be false.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on February 02, 2013, 05:18:01 AM
Heroes are Chaotic Good. Otherwise they wouldn't be heroes but Powers Division. :p

Totally ignoring the best Good alignment! Just sayin! :p
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: emu265 on February 02, 2013, 09:17:51 AM
[lots of text]
You are absolutely correct.  Titan will never endorse or support, in any way, the development of an illegal emulator.  Tony himself has said as much.  However, what we say and do are largely out of their control.  Talking as we are likely won't cause any damage.  If there are efforts to establish emulation, we're all out of the loop (as you said).  But hey, we all like to keep hope.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on February 02, 2013, 11:18:58 AM
Totally ignoring the best Good alignment! Just sayin! :p
Okay, they would be either Powers Division or super-powered PPD cops. :p
Part of being a hero is Doing The Right Thing. Not neccessarily the same as Doing The Legal Thing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 02, 2013, 04:27:17 PM
Okay, they would be either Powers Division or super-powered PPD cops. :p
Part of being a hero is Doing The Right Thing. Not neccessarily the same as Doing The Legal Thing.

I'm sure that people created Heroes of both types (and all types in between).  That's one of the best things about our game; you could be YOUR kind of hero.

*sigh*

/missingCoX
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Sajaana on February 02, 2013, 08:33:05 PM
Don't take this as official legal advice...

You have to wonder why, given the number of fan servers out there for a myriad of games, there have been relatively few actions brought against fan servers.  It's one thing to send a cease and desist request.  It's another thing to actually bring suit.

Because bringing suit in a court of law opens up a can of worms that, frankly, publishers want to avoid.  The last thing they want is to get a bunch of disgruntled consumers into a courtroom, where a judge or a jury could hear what they had to endure.  This is especially true for CoH fans.  In order to get a private server group to answer for their actions, NCSoft will have to open itself up to a lot of questions it doesn't want to have to answer.  Like what recourse, exactly, will a purchaser of their DVDs have, now that NCSoft has abandoned them?

No, publishers want to keep angry customers out of a courtroom, not seek ways to get them into courtrooms.  And then there is the problem of constructing a case.  Keep in mind that simple ownership is typically not sufficient to bring a civil action against another.  An owner typically has to show harm.  Assuming NCSoft could show ownership of a fan-made CoH service, they would also have to show--specifically--that it has harmed them.

But probably the most difficult thing for them to do is to establish (and they'll have to establish) that we, as consumers, have no property rights of our own that we may protect.  Because it's one thing for them to enter a disclaimer in the record.  It's another thing to say that this disclaimer gives them the power to forever inhibit the purchaser from ever making use of the things that he or she purchases, stores, maintains at the purchaser's own expense.  Remember, they abandoned the consumers, not the other way around.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on February 02, 2013, 09:48:42 PM
Valid points all around and I hope those working on this keep it in mind.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on February 03, 2013, 01:58:59 AM
Yes, they could not show anything more than enfringement on IP - however if you have all of the same TM symbols and so on and ccopyright warnings they would be hard pressed to show harm if you freely hosted a server without charging the player base on a game that is officially closed.

If they were willing to host their own server I would be happy to close down any player server I would be hosting :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on February 03, 2013, 08:14:05 AM
Guys, I wish I had some really amazing announcement that I could broadcast to the world.  I didn't expect this thread to reach 15 pages and counting.  Reverse engineering the protocols is the easy part, which is a little funny to say considering how much time has already been poured into that effort.  Actually implementing a new server is going to take a while longer.  Believe me, as soon as I have any kind of substantial news to share beyond "we're working on it," I'll share it.  Until then, the best advice I have is to stay tuned to these forums, because any kind of announcements we do have will undoubtedly be posted here first.  And rest assured... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoy4_h7Pb3M)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Joshex on February 03, 2013, 02:26:42 PM
the absolutely free way to play would be to use everyone's computers as mutual hosts, of coarse we should be careful to make sure slow internet users are treated as client only.

everyone's computer would be respinsible for calculating and sharinginformation for that player's attacks and moves and of coarse calculate the enemies attacks that are directly oriented towards you.

the only thing we'd need an actual server for would be to plan world events and other global things..
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tanklet on February 03, 2013, 06:22:48 PM
This may be a stupid idea/question, but throwing it out anyway...
Instead of the 'private server people' (for lack of a better name o.o) investing in the hardware, what about providing specs that others would need, and sending setup instructions once they've acquired the hardware? If the code's the easy part, but the hardware's the hard part, maybe shifting some of that burden off of yourselves.

Again, I know next to nothing of server administration, so it may be a dumb thought.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on February 03, 2013, 06:46:53 PM
By far the code is the hardest part, Tanklet.  If it were the easy part, the servers would be up/sent out. 

Reverse engineering is NOT simple.  You can intercept the protocols because you're talking to the server, you can draw the things because you have all that locally, but the thinking, calculating, postioning, etc, ad nauseum... aka, the 'glue' that holds it all to together, and the 'fuel' that makes it all go... that is 10 years old.  You can't do that overnight.

Rome was not built in a day.  Neither with a 'new' server.  It is tough, but it's the truth.

---

Joshex, I doubt that distributed computing for an MMO would ever really work out.  There's just too much postional and status information that has to be kept in one place to make sure there's no rubberbanding, instadeaths and just plain weirdness when two or more boxes disagree about something.  One box to rule them all is the only way everything is kept together.  Even FPS server aren't distributed for this reason.  Someone hosts the thinking.  Everyone else is literally playing in that world.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on February 04, 2013, 01:18:10 AM
Hardware is very easy, in fact you can rent the server.

I had a thread asking this exactly because while you could easily build a server for 5-10 people building one for 200 and having the network setup for it is entirely different.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on February 06, 2013, 09:48:13 PM
An owner typically has to show harm.  Assuming NCSoft could show ownership of a fan-made CoH service, they would also have to show--specifically--that it has harmed them.

I suppose they could argue that by playing a free game that used to be making money for them, we aren't giving them money anymore by paying for a current game, so that is financially harmful.

But then the defense would bring out a number of witnesses saying: "We wouldn't give you money anyways!"
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on February 07, 2013, 01:00:29 AM
I suppose they could argue that by playing a free game that used to be making money for them, we aren't giving them money anymore by paying for a current game, so that is financially harmful.

But then the defense would bring out a number of witnesses saying: "We wouldn't give you money anyways!"
I don't think that defense works anymore.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Electric-Knight on February 07, 2013, 01:57:11 AM
...  And rest assured... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoy4_h7Pb3M)
Haha! Perfectly played, good sir!  ;D

I've believed all along (ever since the initial announcement) that this community's brilliant and passionate collaborative of code wizards would be able to rescue our game in some form or another and the few months that it has been since shutdown has done nothing to diminish my estimation of their abilities and their resolve.
Not like I ever had any inside info about all that, but it's just my hunch from the observations of how they've managed to do so many other things (and based on how much they love the game and doing things for it).

I don't see that part as a matter of if, but when... the only ifs are about the big stupid company and what they might do (regarding selling and also regarding trying to stop any private servers).

Blah, blah blah... hang in there, everybody! I know it feels like a long time, but it really hasn't been.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Victoria Victrix on February 07, 2013, 02:16:53 AM
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.

So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on February 07, 2013, 02:22:15 AM
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.

So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.

Just sayin'.

That is good and maybe something may have or may have not somehow just so happened to slip through the cracks during that time period that may or may not make it into the "wrong" hands. I may or may not be happy if someone use it or dont use it to their advantage and or disadvantage.  :P

On the other hand they are fools for waiting that long. Whelp, the best offense against an adversary is not always trying to pummel them, sometimes it's just waiting until they make an idiotic mistake.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Atlantea on February 07, 2013, 02:44:57 AM
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.

So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.

Just sayin'.

Ooooooh....

That's a LONG time for that barn door to be left swinging open!

Methinks that NCSoft completely forgot about "The French Connection" in this case. :D

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on February 07, 2013, 03:13:26 AM
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.

So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.

Just sayin'.

Oooh...
*runs off to scour for a torrent file or 300...*

/no, not really.  I wouldn't know what to DO with it...
//Although just to have a shiny DVD or 20 hanging in a frame, "Here lies CoH Server code, hallowed be its source." Yeah, that'd be really nifty.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on February 07, 2013, 03:43:37 AM
I think some of our best men could find a way to make it work.

I dare say I could wing it and get something functioning but not get it all working without some help.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on February 07, 2013, 04:01:47 AM
Wellllllllll according to a french COH lover and blogger, Transgaming, who were responsible for the Mac versions of CoH, only just now, this week got orders to purge all copies of CoH server and source code in their possession from the heads of corporate.

So that's 2 months and six days for things to have....escaped.

Just sayin'.

The (Nemesis) plot thickens.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: HarvesterOfEyes on February 07, 2013, 04:28:07 AM
Oooh...
*runs off to scour for a torrent file or 300...*

/no, not really.  I wouldn't know what to DO with it...
//Although just to have a shiny DVD or 20 hanging in a frame, "Here lies CoH Server code, hallowed be its source." Yeah, that'd be really nifty.
I'm getting a sort of "Beneath the Planet of the Apes" visual of you now.

Ever been to Radio City Music Hall?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on February 07, 2013, 09:24:42 PM
There are so many things to distract , i was watching an anime and it reminded me of why i started playing COH ,
so i checked and saw the SEGS site up again this made me happy ...
reason why SEGS was down : http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3004

i've started to learn coding but i'm no where close to being a dev :/
but
if we could get the word out to devs to help nemerle ... i mean any bit helps right :/

http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8009

he did say something funny in the post above :)
<quote=nemerle> Be warned though, most of the hopeful candidates took one look at our codebase and ran screaming ( at least I think so ) </quote>
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on February 07, 2013, 11:49:48 PM
The segs forum is still a bit messed up. When I login I can't see any forums or post anywhere but when I logout I can see the old 2008 forums. Might be sometime before that's corrected.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 08, 2013, 12:16:07 AM
I used to be able to program a bit, years ago, but it was just dinking around with BASIC when I was in high school. I'm in school to relearn, but I'm no where near able to create my own program, anymore. I kinda wish I'd gotten into one of the Plan Z projects (you know, not been scared pancakeless by my own knowledge gaps) as a learning exercise, just to see how a project like that goes together.

An old book that I have on game design (c. 2002) has interviews with a bunch of experts in the field, including, it turns out, General British, himself. One of the interviews is with members of the studio that made Red Faction. I played the game, years ago, and it didn't have nearly the depth of content that CoH did, plus they had to create their own engine. One of the senior programmers estimated that game at well over 300,000 lines of code. Given Positron's and War Witch's descriptions of how messy the code had become over the last dozen years, it certainly sounds like a daunting task.  I still say, though, that we likely have at least a half dozen people here who would be able to take the code in pieces and pick it apart. Given the part time nature of any project here, I have no illusions that it would be a quick project, but I'm game.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on February 08, 2013, 03:20:13 AM
I'm getting a sort of "Beneath the Planet of the Apes" visual of you now.

Ever been to Radio City Music Hall?

Nope.  Never been to NYC. 

One day...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on February 12, 2013, 08:01:23 PM
Greetings boys and girls

and here is the answer to this topic atm :

CoH private test server :
http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7&start=20

client required :
http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/8131864

assistance app :
 http://redmine.nemerle.eu/projects/segs_executor


as per request of  nemerle " please warn sternly about the server lacking overall stability "

please note that i do not offer support for this server ... i'm only passing information to help get the word out ...
we need to do what we can to get back what was taken from us ... don't you all agree ?

my thanks to the SEGS team for a job well done so far ... http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/index.php

now if we could only get more devs to help  ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 12, 2013, 08:12:27 PM
So... what exactly do I have to do to get on this test server?

Are there directions for the computer-challenged?  Please?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 12, 2013, 08:32:40 PM
I'm not particularly "challenged," as you put it, and I'm having trouble finding clear info. Start with downloading the torrent file. If you need help with that, holler. I'm about twenty minutes into a two hour download on that, so it's not necessarily quick.

Also, the forum thread that is the first link is all from Saturday. Nemerle may only have the server up on weekends, ATM.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 12, 2013, 08:36:32 PM
I've decided to keep it up 24/7.

It'll be up just like a deranged robot being hit with 2000 volts, expect strange noises, flying parts, and lots of crashing :)

And as for connection guide, a 'quick' setup (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8016)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 12, 2013, 08:56:44 PM
Thanks, Nemerle. Is this (http://redmine.nemerle.eu/projects/segs_executor/files) the helper app you were talking about in the notes at the end of the instructions? CMD is scary enough for some, never mind regedit. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 12, 2013, 09:08:13 PM
Yup, but it's still WIP :)
This is the target (http://redmine.nemerle.eu/projects/segs_executor/wiki)  for version 0.1
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: kokushokubara on February 12, 2013, 09:12:02 PM
HOLY SHAZBOT!! This is YEARS earlier than I expected someone to have even a rough server emu up!! What is/isnt up and working nemerle?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 12, 2013, 09:18:06 PM
First things first:
This project is almost 8 years old now, so.. "YEARS earlier" it is not :D

The most important bit: The SEGS project is targeting the client from 2004
What works ? Auth server, Character creation, entering the Map and ... just hanging there by a thread :P

What doesn't ? everything else, of course :)

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on February 12, 2013, 09:19:56 PM
Woo, progress. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: DCrepesit on February 12, 2013, 09:26:51 PM
Is this Mac compatible?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 12, 2013, 09:28:23 PM
The server itself ?
It should be. At least it has been successfully compiled for macos.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on February 12, 2013, 09:47:16 PM
Mahvelous!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: A Cyclops named Steve on February 12, 2013, 11:37:58 PM
Ok so I see this post and something that I haven't felt in months surge within me and yet I am scared to DL the client server. I have been severely depressed since the loss of my home and my friends. Has anyone DL'ed it yet?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 13, 2013, 12:17:32 AM
I have it, but it's giving me a little trouble. I'm trying a few things before I either ask for help or post triumphantly. :)

EDIT: Can't seem to get it to run, because I don't have the CoHLauncher executable, anymore...

I may have an older computer that has it still on the HDD, but that may not be an easy thing to find, right now.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on February 13, 2013, 01:07:16 AM
Go Nem! Good luck with fixing it and making it 100%!

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LightofthePhoenix on February 13, 2013, 01:45:31 AM
So... can someone help me here?  I am completely clueless at commands and registry stuff.

I tried following the info here: http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8016 but it seems to be worded under the assumption the person reading it already has knowledge of this stuff.  I went through did the cd "C:\etc-etc" and all that, went to the registry editor.  I think I added the right "Auth" thing.  How exactly does this work?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Optimus Dex on February 13, 2013, 02:09:52 AM
Yes , please put me on a nonexistent private server list  and add me to the Pie of the week club list.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Absolute on February 13, 2013, 02:40:21 AM
So... can someone help me here?  I am completely clueless at commands and registry stuff.

I tried following the info here: http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8016 but it seems to be worded under the assumption the person reading it already has knowledge of this stuff.  I went through did the cd "C:\etc-etc" and all that, went to the registry editor.  I think I added the right "Auth" thing.  How exactly does this work?

"steps 3-7 will go the way of the Dodo bird as soon as KHAN finishes his helper App" (From http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8016)

Helper App = http://redmine.nemerle.eu/projects/segs_executor/files


Using the .exe in that file after unzipping it creates a registry file. After that, I'm stuck. Just kind of nice to see the homepage again.

I'm sure someone will post screenshots + descriptions of how to do it when they figure it all out. It won't connect to the server for me, but I've been waiting months, I can wait longer for help.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 13, 2013, 02:46:09 AM
I'm sure someone will post screenshots + descriptions of how to do it when they figure it all out.

This is pretty much what I'd need to prevent the inevitable PEBCAK errors I'd cause trying to get this to work.  :(  I hate sucking at computer stuff.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 13, 2013, 03:34:46 AM
I ran the helper app, and the designated stuff appears to be in the correct places. I guess I'm not sure what to use at the authentication stage, tho.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cendwar on February 13, 2013, 05:39:37 AM
I've installed the client, ran CoX from cmd, closed it, went into regedit, make the new string "Auth" with the value 77.46.18.50 and tried to go back in after doing that, but I'm still having trouble.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ice Trix on February 13, 2013, 07:51:48 AM
I'm only getting "You tried to access the address http://redmine.nemerle.eu/projects/segs_executor, which is currently unavailable. Please make sure that the web address (URL) is correctly spelled and punctuated, then try reloading the page." for most links.
The torrent is working so at least something to download.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 13, 2013, 11:32:07 AM
Dear Citizens, even though my attention span was transplanted from an ADHD afflicted ferret,
I'm not able to monitor all possible communication channels well enough to provide timely help & advice.
As to prevent cluttering up titan's forums, and reduce my CTRL-TABittis please consider:

Think of the ferrets !

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 13, 2013, 02:06:19 PM
Please don't take the initial outcry as a direct call to you, Nemerle. We're pretty good at backing each other up. :)

I'm not setting myself up as tech support, per se, but I'm certainly willing to share with anyone who is stuck. I have the programming running, but it says it can't connect to the authentication server. Haven't poked at it since last night, and I probably won't get back to it for a couple of hours.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kemphler on February 13, 2013, 04:41:47 PM
At the very least, I got into the server and through character creation....then it crashed. Now I can't even get it to the server select screen again. Suppose I'll sit back and let those with a more code and program oriented mind than mine go to work on this all....and kudos for getting this running.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on February 13, 2013, 05:08:08 PM
I'm not even sure how to install and run this on a Mac.  I suppose I can use Wineskin to get the installer running (like I did with Champions), and then go from there, but ... well, I'll wait until the game works on Windows before trying to finagle something like that, I guess :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 13, 2013, 05:25:35 PM
The client works without a hitch under linux+wine so I'm pretty sure it should work on macos too.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on February 13, 2013, 06:37:25 PM
Greetings all

wow ... what a response :)

for everyone who is not sure how to set up the client to run on the test server , please refer to this post on SEGS site .

http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8

it's as easy as 1, 2 , erm , 12 ... just kidding :P , just follow instructions and you'll be fine but if you do run into any probs.
please post on the SEGS forum or pop into the IRC ...

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: kokushokubara on February 13, 2013, 09:08:52 PM
First things first:
This project is almost 8 years old now, so.. "YEARS earlier" it is not :D

The most important bit: The SEGS project is targeting the client from 2004
What works ? Auth server, Character creation, entering the Map and ... just hanging there by a thread :P

What doesn't ? everything else, of course :)
That helps explain much, this is still a huge stepping stone for those of us hoping to see a private CoH/V server! That you have it open source is double cool.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 14, 2013, 01:23:48 AM
It took several tries, but I got in. It's primitive, but still awesome!

Thanks, Nemerle, if you're still watching.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: downix on February 14, 2013, 01:48:19 AM
Graphics totally FUBAR, reminded me of when I7 hit and half of Cap Au Diable was broken.

Still was grinning from ear to ear.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: doctorlurkin on February 14, 2013, 02:00:58 AM
Whoa.

I started reading the newer posts on this thread and I almost wet myself.

I read some more and found the treasure and I DID wet myself.

Please excuse me while I go clean up.  Then I'm gonna try this puppy out!

To everyone who is working on this, THANK YOU!!!!

(runs for a towel and some floor-dry)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 02:19:00 AM
It took several tries, but I got in. It's primitive, but still awesome!

Thanks, Nemerle, if you're still watching.

I keep getting the "Cannot connect to DBserver" message. 
Is this the part that takes several tries?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ashen Fury on February 14, 2013, 02:52:12 AM
ugh, the torrent download is inactive or so slow that its going to take forever :(

THIS IS SUCH A TEASE!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: doctorlurkin on February 14, 2013, 03:56:36 AM
Just reseeded torrent, going to leave it up all night.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 04:20:35 AM
So, about how many attempts does it take to connect?  I've tried at least a dozen times so far, but no dice. 
Also, is the server supposed to be called UNNAMED or did I screw up and end up trying to log in to a non-existent server?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kemphler on February 14, 2013, 04:50:45 AM
Well, Lucretia, you need to make sure that you go into regedit and go to the SEGS_test under software, and have the string titled 'Auth' with the IP address 77.46.18.50    That 'should' get you going to the actual thing. The server should be named Freedom at that point. Just a heads up, don't expect to be running around fighting.

Also, you may need to open up three ports to actually get in game...Those ports all being outgoing.   TCP 2106, UDP 7002, and UDP 7003
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: samfivedot on February 14, 2013, 05:02:20 AM
I keep getting a fatal error that says "unknown auth protocol 254."

No clue what that means or how to fix it...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on February 14, 2013, 02:34:40 PM
If we could get a couple of our other folks to work with Nem at this point and create a server launcher and the code for Issue 4 and get it on P2P - we have a start.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cendwar on February 14, 2013, 03:26:18 PM
I keep getting a fatal error that says "unknown auth protocol 254."

No clue what that means or how to fix it...

Did you add the "Auth" string to regedit and assign it the correct value? The value should be 77.46.18.50 and it should be under segs_test
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cendwar on February 14, 2013, 03:34:15 PM
So, about how many attempts does it take to connect?  I've tried at least a dozen times so far, but no dice. 
Also, is the server supposed to be called UNNAMED or did I screw up and end up trying to log in to a non-existent server?

The server should'nt be UNNAMED I'm pretty sure. When I logged in the only server I saw was called Freedom. I had trouble logging in the first few times too. Try running the game with the "-console" command and it should tell you what's going on. If you get something like "Auth:Waiting for protocol version... failed <45.01>" that means the server is stuck and currently not working (right now, it resets itself every 15 minutes I believe).

Also, make sure you have your router set up to allow the ports tcp 2106 and udp 7002/7003
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 04:34:11 PM
Did you add the "Auth" string to regedit and assign it the correct value? The value should be 77.46.18.50 and it should be under segs_test

I double-checked this and had to add this string.  Now I get the same  "unknown auth protocol 254." error.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 14, 2013, 04:34:39 PM
Both the "Unnamed" and  "unknown auth protocol 254." point in the direction of incompatible client versions.
So what versions are You using fine people ? :)

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 04:36:39 PM
Both the "Unnamed" and  "unknown auth protocol 254." point in the direction of incompatible client versions.
So what versions are You using fine people ? :)

... how do I check?

(god, I REALLY hate sucking at computer stuff, now more than EVER...)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 14, 2013, 04:40:05 PM
Simplest possible check :
See if the CityOfHeroes.exe's size is exactly : 3723264 bytes
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: downix on February 14, 2013, 04:40:37 PM
Now it crashes if I try and login the character I made. Sad monkey.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 14, 2013, 04:43:40 PM
Take a look at this post : http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?p=8073#p8073
It might shed some light on the crashing - while -logging in thingy :)

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 04:51:33 PM
Simplest possible check :
See if the CityOfHeroes.exe's size is exactly : 3723264 bytes

That's this thing, right?
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=img27.imageshack.us%2Fimg27%2F1215%2Fcityofheroes.png)

(Wut iz dis kom-pyoo-tor fy-ul? omg, I haven't felt this ignorant for a while...)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 14, 2013, 05:03:15 PM
Yup, and it's obviously a new version of coh :) in all 8 megabytes of its convoluted glory ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 05:09:03 PM
Yup, and it's obviously a new version of coh :) in all 8 megabytes of its convoluted glory ;)

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Is there somewhere I can get the compatible version?  And how do I make sure the segs_test is using it once I get it?

(also, thank you so much for your patience in dealing with my ignorance.  I really, really appreciate your help!)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 14, 2013, 05:41:14 PM
Try here http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8016 :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 06:02:49 PM
Okay, kinda confused on this step:
"

Or is there a helper app now?  If so, where...?

Edit: Nvm, I got in!

THANK YOU THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH!!!! :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 14, 2013, 06:06:47 PM
:)
http://redmine.nemerle.eu/projects/segs_executor/files

It's rough around the edges, but basically should work :)
(
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 06:24:33 PM
So, I logged in, made a character, got to Outbreak and... couldn't move or see my powers.  Is that normal at this point?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 14, 2013, 06:46:36 PM
Yup, that's basically it :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 14, 2013, 06:47:49 PM
Well alright then!

I look forward to further updates!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on February 14, 2013, 07:24:47 PM
I'm excited about this.  I'm going to wait for a bit of further development before I start trying to get in (for one thing, I'm on a Mac, and that server predates CoH having anything resembling a Mac version)

Actually, as I type that... I wonder if I could just use the newest Mac version as a wrapper, and replace the "coh" folder with the older version?  That may be worth trying out.

... might need to free up some disc space first, though.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on February 14, 2013, 07:37:17 PM
Awesome work Nemerle! I hope some more help comes your way and we can see this progress further ASAP.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on February 14, 2013, 08:23:54 PM
i managed to get onto the map to day for just a bit then it crashed ... so it goes ... i know we all are happy that the project is up
but we need to find a way to get devs involved ...  i've started with programming but i am still some time away before i can really
get involved ...

i'm to noob here to make such a statement ... should we run a vote ? any ideas how we can pull the attention of the community ?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on February 14, 2013, 09:47:03 PM
I think you have the attention of the community.

It would be a wonderful thing in fact if the private server was based off an older version of the game. It would not affect the sales of the newer version if the game was sold but gives a backup in case the game is ever dropped again.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on February 14, 2013, 11:13:49 PM
I think you have the attention of the community.

It would be a wonderful thing in fact if the private server was based off an older version of the game. It would not affect the sales of the newer version if the game was sold but gives a backup in case the game is ever dropped again.

Hopefully Nem won't get the attention of NCsoft. Has this been spread around enough? I know people are seeding...maybe we should put a package together on random file sharing sites, and gaming forums, so that it could never truly die? (This is the internet, and since it has already been uploaded, I'm not too worried. I don't think it has a chance of going away now..., but JUST playing it safe.)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Aura Controller on February 15, 2013, 02:30:00 AM
I got it up and running the city looks like it had a blackout. (Very dark and hard to see anything.)
The char I made slid down the street and left and right movement was reversed.

And with all that I was and still am smiling.
Thanks for this.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Absolute on February 15, 2013, 02:38:27 AM
I got it up and running the city looks like it had a blackout. (Very dark and hard to see anything.)

If you change your gamma in options, it'll fix that problem. I had to move mine from 100% --> 60%.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Aura Controller on February 15, 2013, 03:06:38 AM
If you change your gamma in options, it'll fix that problem. I had to move mine from 100% --> 60%.

Yeah that doesn't seem to do anything. lol. Not that it really matters that much.

Not sure how to put pictures up on here but here is a link.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7285/coxc.png
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 15, 2013, 03:51:46 AM
That's exactly what I was seeing, but I couldn't leave the start position. Any attempt to move would cause my translucent toon to run in place.

Just sharing, not complaining. It's a hell of a thing just to be able to do this much, so no one take tales of woe as looking a gift horse in the mouth. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Absolute on February 15, 2013, 04:18:51 AM
Yeah that doesn't seem to do anything. lol. Not that it really matters that much.

Not sure how to put pictures up on here but here is a link.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7285/coxc.png

Yep, this is the exact problem I had. I fixed that problem by adjusting my in-game gamma (in options). Too bad it doesn't work for others then.

Sometimes I can only run in place, other times I can move. I'm not sure what triggers it yet.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on February 15, 2013, 07:28:16 AM
Not sure how to put pictures up on here but here is a link.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7285/coxc.png

The picture will show if you put image tags around the url, like this but without the spaces:

[ img]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/7285/coxc.png[/img ]

You can type them in, or in the post editor there's a tiny little Mona Lisa icon below the Italics button that adds them for you. Highlight the url then click the button, or click it and then paste your url in between them. :)


... and dagnabbit, that is one pretty picture to see right now. *sighs*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CraZboy on February 15, 2013, 08:49:45 AM
I managed to get in and run (slide) down the street.
Also, changed my option do DEV in the options, was able to move the camera around.
This is a real good advancement .. even saw newspapers flying around.
All was dark, just like everyone else reported.  But, the street is just the way I remember it.

If they can get Outbreak to work .. and just concentrate on that zone, working on the other zones should be a snap!

It would be awesome if someone could turn on the lights!! ;)

Thank you for this!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CraZboy on February 15, 2013, 08:55:19 AM
Oh, got a question:
Looks like Outbreak looks just like the original.  Are the construction of the zones saved within the CoH folder?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: FlyingCarcass on February 15, 2013, 10:20:31 AM
Oh, got a question:
Looks like Outbreak looks just like the original.  Are the construction of the zones saved within the CoH folder?

I believe so, which is why the game is able to play back demorecords. Besides, even after Outbreak was replaced by the Shivan invasion, one could still do Outbreak as a mission in an Ouroboros arc.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LightofthePhoenix on February 15, 2013, 10:28:45 AM
I believe so, which is why the game is able to play back demorecords. Besides, even after Outbreak was replaced by the Shivan invasion, one could still do Outbreak as a mission in an Ouroboros arc.

Even after old Faultline, Paragon Dance Party, and Rikti Crash Site got replaced by new Faultline, Pocket D, and Rikti War Zone respectively, all the zones still existed in the game's files.  They found it easier to simply redirect or cut off the entrances to these old zones in favor of the new ones rather than delete the old zones entirely.  They were worried that doing so might break something. We know how touchy the game's code was at times so who could blame them?

Even old costume pieces that got updated/replaced technically still exist in the game code, that's why people could still wear legacy costume pieces as long as they didn't edit their costume.  Once met a guy on Virtue whose character still had the Malaise top.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ice Trix on February 15, 2013, 10:43:12 AM
Nothing on the segs.nemerle.eu domain loads for me ):

Great news to see it happening though :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 15, 2013, 12:10:59 PM
Nothing on the segs.nemerle.eu domain loads for me ):

Hmm.. I wonder why..
What about  redmine.nemerle.eu ?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on February 15, 2013, 12:21:40 PM
Ok, I think I'm missing something...

Download torrent/install
Download Segs Executor/run RegistryWriter. 
Use 77.46.18.50 for IP

I was able to log in, create a character, and then I was stuck in outbreak couldn't move, character was transparent.  So I'm halfway there it seems...

Edit:  Now can't seem to log in at all.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 15, 2013, 12:25:00 PM
Nope, you're pretty much there :)
There's nowhere else to be ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on February 15, 2013, 12:31:30 PM
Ah, so we're not quite at a playable capacity yet.  Still, was pretty cool to see that much.   :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on February 15, 2013, 12:43:10 PM
Both the "Unnamed" and  "unknown auth protocol 254." point in the direction of incompatible client versions.
So what versions are You using fine people ? :)



I believe the Unnamed Server comes from pointing to -project segs_test instead of -project segs.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 15, 2013, 12:49:56 PM
Nope.
It has nothing to do with registry, and all to do with client executable :)

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on February 15, 2013, 12:58:22 PM
Hmm, because I definitely see Unnamed if I point to segs_test, but Freedom if I point to just segs.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on February 15, 2013, 02:23:19 PM
i managed to get onto the map to day for just a bit then it crashed ... so it goes ... i know we all are happy that the project is up
but we need to find a way to get devs involved ...  i've started with programming but i am still some time away before i can really
get involved ...

i'm to noob here to make such a statement ... should we run a vote ? any ideas how we can pull the attention of the community ?

I assumed more from the community would be helping in this issue but I'm not sure how many or if any have yet. I'm attempting to help in some way. I myself would rather see City of Heroes come back and unless someone decides to buy it from ncsoft this looks to be the best option to focus on. In the end the goal was to "Save Paragon City"
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ashen Fury on February 15, 2013, 03:59:35 PM
Got the file downloaded. Started it up. Oldschool title screen, music, sounds, character creator...oh man am i in heaven right now. Thank you so much for this. Even being able to just log in is like heaven.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 15, 2013, 05:16:45 PM
the street is just the way I remember it.

Yeah, it is.

... is it weird that I want to log in and just stare at that street for a while?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SARobb on February 15, 2013, 05:45:46 PM
Yeah, it is.

... is it weird that I want to log in and just stare at that street for a while?

Nope.

That or we're both weird...  :o

a'course I've always liked Outbreak....
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on February 15, 2013, 05:55:54 PM
I assumed more from the community would be helping in this issue but I'm not sure how many or if any have yet. I'm attempting to help in some way. I myself would rather see City of Heroes come back and unless someone decides to buy it from ncsoft this looks to be the best option to focus on. In the end the goal was to "Save Paragon City"

 :) i am very glad to hear it  , yes lets save paragon city as we have so many times in the past :)

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Sol Eternal on February 15, 2013, 09:12:03 PM
I used photo edit software to enhance and brighten the screenshot. It is Outbreak alright and the hero is nearly transparent. Sepia tone shows it best.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on February 15, 2013, 09:28:48 PM
Don't undersell the importance of this, once you have a launcher that works all you need is the data - many people have already said it is amazing how much of the game data we already have.

Hopefully Nemerle is getting some help on this!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 15, 2013, 09:31:50 PM
Not yet, I had some offers though.

I do understand that most of my coding brethren is busy over the week , so let's see what happens this weekend.

Forever hopeful :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Covet Amory on February 15, 2013, 10:02:44 PM
please PM me on what I need to do here to join you in this private matter <3
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Sol Eternal on February 15, 2013, 10:31:15 PM
Issue 24 (beta) is available online and lets u run the character creator. Not sure if that helps.

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7288.0.html?PHPSESSID=a1qu5v1i61bv1dna0vftejpo60

What is Icon?
Titan Icon is a small program that unlocks the City of Heroes costume creator for offline use. You can create, edit, load and save costumes, as well as preview power animations.

Download
http://repo.cohtitan.com/icon/icon.exe

Requirements
You must have either the latest Issue 23 (version 2320.201207182341.1) or Issue 24 (version 2400.201208211101.1) game client installed. The NCSoft launcher is not required. The Issue 24 client has more costume parts available and is recommended if you have it.

If you deleted City, or you're returning after a long absence, the Issue 24 client is available from savecoh.com. You must have either a torrent program or a SugarSync account. Both are explained on the download page.

Instructions
1.Save icon.exe into your City of Heroes program folder. On a default install, this may be in C:\Program Files\City of Heroes, or C:\Program Files (x86)\City of Heroes on 64-bit systems. It should have a cityofheroes.exe file in it as well.


2.Use Explorer to browse to that folder, and double click icon.exe. You can create a shortcut to it if desired.

Instructions for Mac Users
Thanks to TheManga for figuring this out! Original post here.

IMPORTANT:  MAKE A COPY OF YOUR CITY OF HEROES FOLDER.  Since we'll be modifying it irrecoverably, it's best to work with a copy.
1.Download icon.exe from the link above.


2.Toss the NCSoft Launcher in the trash.  Not really necessary, but it's fun.  Laugh while the trash empties.


3.Use the finder's Go To Folder command and select ~/Library/Preferences.


4.Delete com.ncsoft.* (anything beginning with that) and City of Heroes preferences.


5.Right click on the City of Heroes application and select Show Package Contents.


6.Go to Contents > Resources > transgaming > c_drive > coh  ....  or that last part might be Program Files > City of Heroes.


7.Drag the icon.exe into the path above.


8.Back up to Contents and select MacOS.  Click slowly twice in the name "cider" to rename it.  Change the name to "cider_die".


9.Right-click on cider_noui and choose "Duplicate". Click slowly on the name "cider_noui copy" to rename it.  Change that name to just "cider".


10.Backup to Contents again.


11.Download this Icon.plist file:  http://repo.cohtitan.com/icon/Info.plist


12.Go to Contents again, and drop the Info.plist there, replacing the existing one.


13.Close everything up and launch the City of Heroes application.  It will go directly into the costume creator!


14.(OPTIONAL) Change the name of the City of Heroes application to something like "CoH Costume Creator" to differentiate it.


« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 07:54:30 pm by Codewalker »

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on February 16, 2013, 08:50:21 AM
wow Sol Eternal ... that is very cool ... i'm a bit nostalgic about my client so i'll possibly check it out once i make a back up ...
would be cool if icon could allow for access of a map offline too ... however i think the idea is to get coh so that we can all
hang together once more ...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lucretia MacEvil on February 16, 2013, 05:00:43 PM
i think the idea is to get coh so that we can all
hang together once more ...

I've been playing an offline game since CoX closed (after the necessary time of mourning).  I never really realized how boring it is to play without other people.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: franman12312 on February 17, 2013, 04:27:09 PM
So....I woke up this morning and was going to check the segs forums to see how to do all this. When i click the links or even google "nemerle segs" i get the "Google chrome can't find this webpage" did we get shut down? or something wrong on my end?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: DCrepesit on February 17, 2013, 05:25:47 PM
You're definitely not the only one.  It was fine last night and I checked it just recently today, yet I could not access the site either.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cendwar on February 17, 2013, 08:14:55 PM
Seems to be fine now. Logged in atm.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ice Trix on February 18, 2013, 10:54:59 AM
Hmm.. I wonder why..
What about  redmine.nemerle.eu ?
Nope, still no joy.
Don;t worry though 'bout it though, I'll try from a friends computer next weekend.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ampithere on February 18, 2013, 01:54:22 PM
I'm glad to see some progress on this front. I keep finding myself with little periods of free time and no costumes to log in and edit  :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on February 18, 2013, 06:10:27 PM
So....I woke up this morning and was going to check the segs forums to see how to do all this. When i click the links or even google "nemerle segs" i get the "Google chrome can't find this webpage" did we get shut down? or something wrong on my end?

just checked the site now ... seems to be fine however it was down over the weekend
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: franman12312 on February 19, 2013, 04:24:54 AM
just checked the site now ... seems to be fine however it was down over the weekend

Yep, its up and running for me now as well:)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on February 19, 2013, 06:16:08 AM
Got in. Made a toon. Stood on place. Love every minute. My guy wasn't transparent, nor did he slide down the street, but it also wasn't too dark. I know just enough about computers to know that this is a pretty big step. Thanks Nemerle and Segs. :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on February 19, 2013, 06:23:54 AM
Got in. Made a toon. Stood on place. Loved every minute. My guy wasn't transparent, nor did he slide down the street, but it also wasn't too dark. I know just enough about computers to know that this is a pretty big step. Thanks Nemerle and Segs. :D

Edit: Still trying to figure out the SEGS Executor thingy.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on February 19, 2013, 06:53:36 AM
This is exciting to read.   ;D ;D ;D   (I'm not able to try it yet...but I'll live vicariously through you guys for a while)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on February 21, 2013, 10:54:26 AM
Taking Sentry's advice, I'm posting this here in hopes that it will not detract from other valiant efforts taking place around these fine forums.

I'm preparing the groundwork for an attack on the Citadel of Input Processing and humbly ask for opinions from my fellow code-tamers.

Should You have a spare 10m I'd be grateful for any input you can provide, on our forums (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=8129#p8129)

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on February 21, 2013, 11:21:36 AM
This is exciting to read.   ;D ;D ;D   (I'm not able to try it yet...but I'll live vicariously through you guys for a while)

That's where I am at.  Personally I have nothing to contribute and often don't even know whats going on.  But still its super cool to come here and read you guys talk about it, the whole thing makes me all jittery with excitement!

That's all. Nothing useful :) Please continue ill go back to the corner and watch in awe.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on February 21, 2013, 10:26:34 PM
Taking Sentry's advice, I'm posting this here in hopes that it will not detract from other valiant efforts taking place around these fine forums.

I'm preparing the groundwork for an attack on the Citadel of Input Processing and humbly ask for opinions from my fellow code-tamers.

Should You have a spare 10m I'd be grateful for any input you can provide, on our forums (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=10&p=8129#p8129)

It strikes me that it might be a prudent investment of resources for the Plan Zs to lend a coder or three to this project for a little while. Y'know, as a way to regroup a larger chunk of the playerbase's former size into one place again. It would give us a place to gather with much-renewed spirits, reform the bonds that made us so great, and wait as one for the new games that are being developed. In other words, get back the old game as something to do in the meantime.

It's going to be a long stretch until alphas are released, let alone playable games, and ultimately we'll need more than a forum to ride out that kind of time frame. Titan makes a fantastic headquarters, but most people are only occasionally checking in here. I don't think anybody would disagree that what we all really want is a game to share and enjoy. That's what will carry us the whole distance without further erosion.

Sparing a couple coders for a month or two at this early stage, to help this project succeed, could make a huge difference down the road. Two to three years from now you'd be promoting your games to "tight-knit and enthusiastic" us instead of "sad and wandered away" us.

If nothing else, consider it research for when you get to that stage yourselves. Knowing the quirks and pitfalls of a working system could help you streamline things, or prevent a lot of wasted time on repairs by adapting your approach from the start.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Deathmint on February 24, 2013, 11:37:12 PM
Just wanted to post my appreciation of Triplash's observations.

I have nothing to offer in technical abilities, but I've been following this closely since this is a rather big glimmer of hope for me.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ampithere on February 28, 2013, 02:30:32 PM
It strikes me that it might be a prudent investment of resources for the Plan Zs to lend a coder or three to this project for a little while. Y'know, as a way to regroup a larger chunk of the playerbase's former size into one place again. It would give us a place to gather with much-renewed spirits, reform the bonds that made us so great, and wait as one for the new games that are being developed. In other words, get back the old game as something to do in the meantime.

It's going to be a long stretch until alphas are released, let alone playable games, and ultimately we'll need more than a forum to ride out that kind of time frame. Titan makes a fantastic headquarters, but most people are only occasionally checking in here. I don't think anybody would disagree that what we all really want is a game to share and enjoy. That's what will carry us the whole distance without further erosion.

Sparing a couple coders for a month or two at this early stage, to help this project succeed, could make a huge difference down the road. Two to three years from now you'd be promoting your games to "tight-knit and enthusiastic" us instead of "sad and wandered away" us.

If nothing else, consider it research for when you get to that stage yourselves. Knowing the quirks and pitfalls of a working system could help you streamline things, or prevent a lot of wasted time on repairs by adapting your approach from the start.

My only objection is that Plan Z has been concerned from the beginning about doing anything potentially illegal. As great as it'd be to see them help with SEGS, it'd also be pretty terrible if that gave NCSoft any sort of foothold to go after Plan Z.

It's probably just my tinfoil hat, but that was the first thing I thought of.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on February 28, 2013, 05:54:17 PM
My only objection is that Plan Z has been concerned from the beginning about doing anything potentially illegal. As great as it'd be to see them help with SEGS, it'd also be pretty terrible if that gave NCSoft any sort of foothold to go after Plan Z.

It's probably just my tinfoil hat, but that was the first thing I thought of.

Yeah, I only thought about that after posting. I'd never want them to draw trouble to the projects.

Ah well I'm sure it'll work out sooner or later. In the words of the immortal Wham, you gotta have faith-a-faith-a-faith, baybay. ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SteveZilla on February 28, 2013, 06:41:30 PM
Putting myself on the list for a PM.

Ditto x1000

:)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Heroette on February 28, 2013, 06:44:06 PM
Yeah, I only thought about that after posting. I'd never want them to draw trouble to the projects.

Ah well I'm sure it'll work out sooner or later. In the words of the immortal Wham, you gotta have faith-a-faith-a-faith, baybay. ;)

But that was a George Michael song....
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on February 28, 2013, 06:47:59 PM
good song.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on February 28, 2013, 06:54:08 PM
But that was a George Michael song....

I... um... uhhh... *points behind you* Hey look, a distraction!

*runs away*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on March 01, 2013, 04:07:38 AM
My only objection is that Plan Z has been concerned from the beginning about doing anything potentially illegal. As great as it'd be to see them help with SEGS, it'd also be pretty terrible if that gave NCSoft any sort of foothold to go after Plan Z.

It's probably just my tinfoil hat, but that was the first thing I thought of.

If Marvel could not get a judgement against NCStupid for having a game where Wolverine's claws were duplicated down to the micron - not to mention Batman's cape or gloves, one wonders where DC was.... probably had better things to do - I have a REALLY HARD TIME believing that NCS is going to get Plan Z shut down on the strength of "we used to have a superhero game, and now they have one.... MAKE IT STOP!"

NCIdiocracy does not own the concept of people with paranormal powers. If they think they do, DCUniverse Online is over THERE, and the upcoming Marvel game is over THERE in the opposite direction. Perhaps they can sue Marvel for putting Wolverine's claws in MArvel's own game! I'd pay a dollar to see that. *munching popcorn*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: General Idiot on March 01, 2013, 01:52:22 PM
The thing is, the Marvel thing with CoH was I believe settled out of court, and lead to the bit in the EULA about making copyrighted characters and GMs genericing any clones they saw, which didn't happen before that. Had they actually gone to court I suspect Marvel would've come out on top.

Regardless, if either Plan Z project was to start using any actual assets from CoH they become open to legal action from NCSoft. I don't think aiding a private server project would let then have a go at the Plan Z project itself as well, but a legal issue would pretty much kill the project anyway once you take the associated bad press and legal fees into account, even if they didn't go for the actual project they'd ruin the people making it and kill it that way.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on March 02, 2013, 06:15:19 AM
But Plan Z isn't using any assets from CoX; I highly doubt they are that crazy.

As far as a private server project, the operative word here is PRIVATE. Its private. How would they find out about it? And how would they get entry, even if they heard a rumor?

Lawsuits are all that and everything, but allowing oneself to be immobilized by the threat of lawsuit means you won't be living life. Anyone, at any time anywhere can bring a suit. You could get sued tomorrow. So could I. Getting a judge to take the suit seriously is another thing, and this will be hard to do - especially if money is not involved.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: General Idiot on March 02, 2013, 06:38:11 AM
Whether they're on it or not doesn't change the fact that reverse engineering the server is against the EULA we all agreed to every time we played the game. Arguments could be made against that EULA being valid anymore so it probably wouldn't hold up in court, but you'd still be a hundred thousand bucks in legal fees to find that out and I dunno about you or anyone else on the project but I certainly don't have that kind of cash.

And no, to my knowledge neither Plan Z project is using anything from CoH beyond general inspiration.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TimtheEnchanter on March 02, 2013, 06:47:30 AM
Had they actually gone to court I suspect Marvel would've come out on top.

Then what's to stop them from suing a crayon company for enabling kids to draw pictures of copyrighted characters?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ice Trix on March 02, 2013, 08:06:57 AM
Nope, still no joy.
Don;t worry though 'bout it though, I'll try from a friends computer next weekend.
Worked fine to download from a mate's computer.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: General Idiot on March 02, 2013, 01:31:59 PM
Then what's to stop them from suing a crayon company for enabling kids to draw pictures of copyrighted characters?

The fact that those kids aren't selling those pictures for real money. If they are technically they're open to it, but that's a level of evil that only the most evil corporation would even consider. Another corporation actively selling a product that includes the likeness of your copyrighted characters is quite another matter. The problem from their perspective would be proving that being able to combine parts to create such a likeness is the same as including it outright.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on March 02, 2013, 06:22:51 PM
Whether they're on it or not doesn't change the fact that reverse engineering the server is against the EULA we all agreed to every time we played the game. Arguments could be made against that EULA being valid anymore so it probably wouldn't hold up in court, but you'd still be a hundred thousand bucks in legal fees to find that out and I dunno about you or anyone else on the project but I certainly don't have that kind of cash.

And no, to my knowledge neither Plan Z project is using anything from CoH beyond general inspiration.

What I'm not understanding here is the "hundred thousand bucks in legal fees." This is not the first time this number has been thrown around - and it does not cost that much to hire a lawyer.

Quote
Another corporation actively selling a product that includes the likeness of your copyrighted characters is quite another matter.

No one is selling anything on a reverse-engineered private server. As far as agreeing to a EULA, I for one am not feeling all that much loyalty to a corporation that threw us so far under the bus that a vortex to another dimension opened under the bus, and now we all find ourselves in a universe without our favorite game. I paid for their game for six years, and they decided they didnt want my money anymore. Me and them are quits; I am not bound to a EULA for A GAME THAT NO LONGER EXISTS.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: General Idiot on March 03, 2013, 01:40:02 AM
That's your view, but they could make the argument that you are still bound by it and it'd be much money down the line before either of you proved the other wrong. The hundred thousand I just pulled out of thin air, I don't actually know how much it costs to hire a lawyer other than that it's expensive.

And yes, no one's selling anything in a private server though the argument could be made that it's possible and that's reason enough. But I wasn't talking about a private server when I made that comment, I was referring to the old Marvel suit against CoH.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blue Pulsar on March 03, 2013, 05:29:54 AM
No one is selling anything on a reverse-engineered private server. As far as agreeing to a EULA, I for one am not feeling all that much loyalty to a corporation that threw us so far under the bus that a vortex to another dimension opened under the bus, and now we all find ourselves in a universe without our favorite game. I paid for their game for six years, and they decided they didnt want my money anymore. Me and them are quits; I am not bound to a EULA for A GAME THAT NO LONGER EXISTS.

Ya know, I am inclined to disagree with the idea that it would be legal to run a private server with CoH on it, but the way you spin it is quite interesting. I will say that other game companies have had private servers shut down in the same situation. While we are not bound by the EULA any longer, it also has nothing to do with private servers and the exploitation of copyrighted IP. The fact that they are the IP owners of the game we want to play does. They lose a little bit of edge in the fact that they are no longer marketing the game and that a private server would not be a for-profit venture, but it really wouldn't mean much against the fact that the hoster would be bootlegging copyrighted data and information. It's like pirating a copy of Adam Sandler's movie. I mean, he's not making any money off it and won't be any time soon, but it's still illegal to copy and distribute even if no profit is being made.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on March 03, 2013, 06:02:29 AM
To hell with this legal bullshit. If your going to worry about that you might as well say goodbye to city of heroes forever. Get a dedicated server in a country where they cant do anything about it and put the server there. We might have high pings but damn, lets not quit now over some legal bs.

My hopes were high to stomp some rikti and run some incarnate trials again but posts like this make me feel the knife is in my back already.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on March 03, 2013, 12:12:20 PM
Paraguay is notorious for not following the USA's IP laws...........just saying.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on March 03, 2013, 12:58:17 PM
I would think that Paraguay is notorious for not following *any* USA laws... being as they're not USA.  And many other countries... well, come to think of it, all the other countries do this.

How dare they blatantly not do the exact same things as the USA do.  What do they think they are, soverign entities separate from USA rule? 

Pfft.  Silly countries.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: General Idiot on March 03, 2013, 01:06:04 PM
The point I'm trying to make is it's not definitely legal to run a private server using someone else's IP. However, it's not absolutely clear that it's illegal either. It's in that murky area where it might be ok and might not, and NCSoft being a foreign company only makes it murkier.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on March 03, 2013, 02:18:53 PM
In a strange turn of events, today I've found the C&D our initial project received back in 2007, and posted the link to it on segs forums (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=8140#p8140)
Other projects might find some interesting tidbits in there


 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on March 03, 2013, 03:43:18 PM
So, by the criteria set forth in that letter, Champions Online technically violates NCSoft's copyright? (Note that the letter says nothing about the "offending game" being any good...)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: r00tb0ySlim on March 03, 2013, 04:14:03 PM
This whole private server vs IP ownership legal talk kinda reminds me of the squatters law (worldwide).  You know, the adverse possession/open dominion thingy.  It's probably not relevant since we are not talking about land, but this situation reminds me of it anyway.  They're not using it and we want to make some aspects of it viable.  I just want to play any form of the game and the sooner the better!!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on March 03, 2013, 04:40:09 PM
"Squatters" exist on the Internet, which is why, initially, the majority of the .xxx domains were bought up by legitimate organizations, mostly universities, to prevent porn companies using them.

Now, there is a sliver of a precedent with the SWG private servers, but NCSoft has also set something of a precedent with their own "retired" IPs. I'd have to go back and look, but I believe that was on a game that was not so much retired as no longer available in the western hemisphere.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mysterious J on March 03, 2013, 05:12:57 PM
This discussion seems to me to be getting kind of confused. IANAL, but...

First, the EULA doesn't apply any more.  Under the EULA, NCSoft's sole legal remedy for violations was kicking you off the service and cancelling your account. That's moot now.

NCSoft still has a copyright in all the source code (moot, because nobody outside of NCSoft has any of it), the compiled client, and all the files that were included with that, most importantly all the art and music assets.  If you redistribute the client, then you could be violating their copyright (could because there are a bunch of steps they'd have to go through in court to demonstrate that it was a violation, and there are some affirmative defenses that could be raised).  Under the DMCA they could get a service provider (in a jurisdiction that's covered) to take down the client files you were sharing, basically just by alleging a violation... but that's not the same as proving a violation and again there are some defenses against that.  Still, they'd be on pretty solid legal footing if they bothered to pursue it.

NCSoft does not have any right to prevent anyone from providing products that are interoperable with their client code, or to prevent reverse engineering their code in order to provide interoperability.  This ranges from things like Vidiot Maps to Sentinel+ to a hypothetical server that would respond to messages from the client as if it were the CoX server engine.  This is pretty much settled case-law, and there's a particular carve-out in the DMCA specifically to permit reverse engineering.  NCSoft forbade it in the EULA (a common tactic to try to skate around  the law permitting reverse engineering is to claim that it's nonetheless forbidden by a contract that the company and the reverse engineer have entered into), but the EULA is now moot.

NCSoft still has a trademark in City of Heroes and various names and images (not all of them, but specific ones that served to identify and promote the brand), but that limits what a hypothetical after-market interoperable server could be called and what images it could use to promote itself so as not to cause confusion in the marketplace over whether it's an official product; it does not actually prevent mentioning the trademark for purposes of comparison (10% less phosphates than Tide) or compatibility (usable with iPhone).  And that assumes that somebody actually tries to market a product that works with the old City of Heroes clients...which seems unlikely.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: r00tb0ySlim on March 03, 2013, 05:38:00 PM
This discussion seems to me to be getting kind of confused. IANAL, but...

First, the EULA doesn't apply any more.  Under the EULA, NCSoft's sole legal remedy for violations was kicking you off the service and cancelling your account. That's moot now.

NCSoft still has a copyright in all the source code (moot, because nobody outside of NCSoft has any of it), the compiled client, and all the files that were included with that, most importantly all the art and music assets.  If you redistribute the client, then you could be violating their copyright (could because there are a bunch of steps they'd have to go through in court to demonstrate that it was a violation, and there are some affirmative defenses that could be raised).  Under the DMCA they could get a service provider (in a jurisdiction that's covered) to take down the client files you were sharing, basically just by alleging a violation... but that's not the same as proving a violation and again there are some defenses against that.  Still, they'd be on pretty solid legal footing if they bothered to pursue it.

NCSoft does not have any right to prevent anyone from providing products that are interoperable with their client code, or to prevent reverse engineering their code in order to provide interoperability.  This ranges from things like Vidiot Maps to Sentinel+ to a hypothetical server that would respond to messages from the client as if it were the CoX server engine.  This is pretty much settled case-law, and there's a particular carve-out in the DMCA specifically to permit reverse engineering.  NCSoft forbade it in the EULA (a common tactic to try to skate around  the law permitting reverse engineering is to claim that it's nonetheless forbidden by a contract that the company and the reverse engineer have entered into), but the EULA is now moot.

NCSoft still has a trademark in City of Heroes and various names and images (not all of them, but specific ones that served to identify and promote the brand), but that limits what a hypothetical after-market interoperable server could be called and what images it could use to promote itself so as not to cause confusion in the marketplace over whether it's an official product; it does not actually prevent mentioning the trademark for purposes of comparison (10% less phosphates than Tide) or compatibility (usable with iPhone).  And that assumes that somebody actually tries to market a product that works with the old City of Heroes clients...which seems unlikely.



I just pissed myself and forgot who I was for 5 minutes, but well said!!  I think this means we can all have that pool party next Saturday night or whenever the PS is humming!!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on March 03, 2013, 06:32:05 PM
To hell with this legal bullshit. If your going to worry about that you might as well say goodbye to city of heroes forever. Get a dedicated server in a country where they cant do anything about it and put the server there. We might have high pings but damn, lets not quit now over some legal bs.

My hopes were high to stomp some rikti and run some incarnate trials again but posts like this make me feel the knife is in my back already.

No knives are in your back, we just have some Nervous Nellies who are worried about obeying a EULA for a game that no longer exists.

This is like saying: "Free party at my place next Saturday, BYOB and let's paaaar-tay!"

Someone else: "But what if someone brings Absolut vodka and Absolut decides to sue, because they did not approve our party first?"

Party host: "How will they know? Absolut headquarters is on another continent, and I didn't invite them anyways."

[I have no idea where Absolut is headquartered, just making a point.]

Meanwhile, keep on keepin' on, many of us wish we could do more to help you. Unfortunately what i DONT know about computers would fill several libraries.  8)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: r00tb0ySlim on March 03, 2013, 07:20:54 PM
No knives are in your back, we just have some Nervous Nellies who are worried about obeying a EULA for a game that no longer exists.

This is like saying: "Free party at my place next Saturday, BYOB and let's paaaar-tay!"

Someone else: "But what if someone brings Absolut vodka and Absolut decides to sue, because they did not approve our party first?"

Party host: "How will they know? Absolut headquarters is on another continent, and I didn't invite them anyways."

[I have no idea where Absolut is headquartered, just making a point.]

Meanwhile, keep on keepin' on, many of us wish we could do more to help you. Unfortunately what i DONT know about computers would fill several libraries.  8)

I do like the party reference here.  I am more of a Mad Dog 20/20 Nellie though :o....without the nervousness
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Absolute on March 05, 2013, 11:44:15 PM
SEGS just posted that the default map was changed from Outbreak --> Atlas Park. Pressing F2 also allows you to fly around without any collision comfortably. Changing the in-game gamma fixes the darkness problem as well.

He might have forgot to turn the server back on. I can't access it at the moment, but it'll be fun once I can.

Flying around one of the original Atlases will be nice.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: shadeovblack on March 06, 2013, 12:22:34 AM
I really wish I knew something about programming so I could help out >.<

I guess it's never to late to start learning...

Does anyone know what language/program they use?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on March 06, 2013, 09:26:46 AM
Flying around one of the original Atlases will be nice.
Oh man...that sounds so cool to me right now.... :(
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Golden Ace on March 06, 2013, 01:55:10 PM
Oh man...that sounds so cool to me right now.... :(

it does
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: downix on March 06, 2013, 03:32:01 PM
F2 isn't doing anything for me.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: nemerle on March 06, 2013, 03:36:07 PM
Enter options, go to keyboard settings, choose 'Dev' from dropdown, apply.
'F2' should do it's job now.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: downix on March 06, 2013, 04:39:20 PM
Enter options, go to keyboard settings, choose 'Dev' from dropdown, apply.
'F2' should do it's job now.
Nope, although now I can look around.

It may be Win8 at fault. My character is transparent to boot.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: shadeovblack on March 07, 2013, 12:20:49 AM
You may be trying to fly straight up? I was, but I found out I could move by flying forward.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kemphler on March 07, 2013, 03:58:55 AM
Nope, although now I can look around.

It may be Win8 at fault. My character is transparent to boot.

Everyone's character is transparent on the SEGS server...nemerle is working on it. Considering nem is doing this solo, I gotta give credit for where it is right now.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: downix on March 07, 2013, 04:35:06 AM
Everyone's character is transparent on the SEGS server...nemerle is working on it. Considering nem is doing this solo, I gotta give credit for where it is right now.
No, I mean during character creation, I'm transparent.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cendwar on March 07, 2013, 02:36:19 PM
No, I mean during character creation, I'm transparent.

Yeah, every stage of seeing the actual character is transparent. It's a graphical bug. He's actually looking to see if anyone at all is able to get the graphics loading properly. So far I don't think anyone has been able to.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on March 07, 2013, 03:23:07 PM
I wonder what would be best for the community;

-Community Server devs set up and run a single server

OR

-As soon as its done the server code is open sourced and several servers pop up all over the place.

A single server would give our community a way to rally back in one place and rebuild. I'd bet it could feel as active as Virtue or Freedom used to. If it were ever threatened by an NCsoft C&D they could always opensource the code then.

However, going ahead and opensourcing right off the bat guarantees that CoH will always be out in there some way right from day 1, that's some good security.
Honestly, its up to the devs who put the hard work into building it and I'm sure there are plans to make their version of CoH "immortal" and safe from legal threats.

I personally feel like the first Option, launching with only 1 server for at least a while is the best for the community.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on March 07, 2013, 09:24:19 PM
I had always assumed either A: our hometown servers or B:1 big community server.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on March 07, 2013, 10:17:01 PM
I think once its solidly working distributing the code asap would be good. Keeping it so no centralized project can be shut down feels safer to me.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on March 07, 2013, 10:25:32 PM
Yes and no. No centralized product means no centralized community. And community was half or more of the reasons we love this game.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on March 07, 2013, 10:32:02 PM
The question is, how does something like that work within the constraints of the game's existing server selection "protocol." Is this something that can be converted to a sort of "waiting room" setup, like the old Wolfenstein and Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory had? I don't know how Runescape handles hosted servers, but I know that most large ISPs make it so that something like a static IP (or, better, a static route) are complicated to acquire. Usually, it's "just" moving to one of their business accounts, but the problem usually is one of expense. For me, I'm on cable internet, which is almost gleefully unreliable when it comes to address reservations.

I'm not nay-saying, nor am I trying to dampen anyone's enthusiasm. These are just "next step" things to consider. Maybe, it's as simple as there being a "here I am" script in the server software that the client software looks for as the program is loading. As I've said, before, we have a lot of really smart, talented people who can no longer participate in their favorite pastime. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to put that potential to use for Good. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kemphler on March 07, 2013, 10:40:59 PM
Yeah, every stage of seeing the actual character is transparent. It's a graphical bug. He's actually looking to see if anyone at all is able to get the graphics loading properly. So far I don't think anyone has been able to.

Nem is looking for someone who gets the graphics to load properly?...Well I dunno about properly, but my character, at the very least, is solid during the character creation.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Waffles on March 08, 2013, 12:05:50 AM
I'd say titan should opensource the code just for the immortal status, Just because anyone monitoring the Private Server program probably has a good idea that Titan's server would be the best place to try first. Then the C&D order won't really have any weight to it.

Though i have to ask, is there anyway we could use a "Cleaned up" non "Spaghetti" code? Meaning, a code that is technically not NCsoft's, but can still be used for CoH with little to no bad effects?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kemphler on March 08, 2013, 03:31:09 AM
I'd say titan should opensource the code just for the immortal status, Just because anyone monitoring the Private Server program probably has a good idea that Titan's server would be the best place to try first. Then the C&D order won't really have any weight to it.

Though i have to ask, is there anyway we could use a "Cleaned up" non "Spaghetti" code? Meaning, a code that is technically not NCsoft's, but can still be used for CoH with little to no bad effects?

The problem is, Titan, officially, doesn't have a server. Let alone the code. So far as we all know. And even if they did, I don't think it'd be a good idea for them to opensource it, simply because if they were to do that, NCSoft would have open season on them.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on March 08, 2013, 03:51:05 AM
The problem is, Titan, officially, doesn't have a server. Let alone the code. So far as we all know. And even if they did, I don't think it'd be a good idea for them to opensource it, simply because if they were to do that, NCSoft would have open season on them.

First things first: This is not an effort by the Titan Network.  I'm not saying that to deflect legal responsibility for it, I'm saying it because I want to make sure the credit is given where credit is due.  I honestly haven't had much time to dig into this so I'm not running it myself, but from what I've seen, Nemerle has made extremely significant strides in reverse engineering this puppy, and I heartily applaud his efforts.  I can't wait to see what comes out of this, and if there are experienced coders out there who can help him, please drop him a PM and see how you can help out.

But anyway, as it's not our code, we have zero control over whether it gets "open sourced" or how it will be distributed or what servers will run it.  I don't want to volunteer running a server myself, because truth is, we're talking amongst ourselves about scaling back the Titan Network server used to run our sites as it is--with folks not hitting the web service that Sentinel used or visiting the Paragon Wiki much any more, we don't need the resources that we once did.  I've got some personal irons in the fire (some CoH-related, some not) that I'd like to save those resources for in case they're needed (such as emergencies among our developers (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7991.0.html)).

Nemerle and I don't talk on a regular basis.  I'm not avoiding him or anything, just staying pretty busy.  But if he's still reading this thread, if you need anything from me, let me know!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on March 08, 2013, 05:09:00 PM
Here is how it could work with decentralized servers:

A forum is built with a Server page. You then have each server assigned a thread and the IP addy and so on entered on a sticky note that is editable by the server owner.

You then can speak with your friends just exactly like on CoH on the server threads. You can recruit and so on and even have a general server talk page where we can all hangout and talk about what is happening in the community.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Moon Roach on March 12, 2013, 02:17:08 AM
Yay!  Dev mode for movement worked great!  Log in -> Create New Character -> Options -> Controls -> Dev Mode -> Save Settings -> F2 -> Movement!

I'm still getting lots of transparent textures but it's so cool to be able to run around.

If I install the server on my own computer, will I be able to set the default map to anything other than Atlas?  I noticed earlier in the thread there was discussion of having switched the default map from Outbreak to Atlas.

And thanks for all the work you've done on this, even if this is as close as we get, it's gratifying to be able to 'run' around in Atlas again :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cendwar on March 12, 2013, 04:48:45 PM
Nem is looking for someone who gets the graphics to load properly?...Well I dunno about properly, but my character, at the very least, is solid during the character creation.

You may want to look at this http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8012&start=20
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Helyom on March 21, 2013, 05:56:48 PM
Listen, i think we can require the legal rigths about "Architect" Mishes that we created. Please, chek it .
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on March 21, 2013, 05:59:19 PM
So, if people were to, say, download Sentinel+ a few times a week, and just visit the ParagonWiki and do a short wiki-walk each day or every other day, would that help Titan Networks out?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 23, 2013, 12:12:53 AM
The problem is, Titan, officially, doesn't have a server. Let alone the code. So far as we all know. And even if they did, I don't think it'd be a good idea for them to opensource it, simply because if they were to do that, NCSoft would have open season on them.

Actually, there's nothing they can do so long as 2 things are true.  1) no NCSoft code is in the server.  2) no NCSoft content (artwork, music, maps, etc.)  These battles were fought during 90s between AT&T and everyone who wanted to make a Unix-like OS other than Linux.  The court ruling came down to so long as it has no AT&T code and they didnt' call themselves Unix, the Unix like OSes (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, etc.) can exist and there's nothing AT&T can do about it.

So, as long as whomever puts up a gaming server doesn't use code taken from NCSoft (unlikely to happen) and they don't use any maps, proper names, copied artwork or music tracks/sound tracks, they're fine and can't be touched.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on March 23, 2013, 04:33:10 PM
Listen, i think we can require the legal rigths about "Architect" Mishes that we created. Please, chek it .
Most likely not. Copyright does not qeual control, and as far as I understand it we consented to give NCSoft a license to use the missions when we submitted them - but they were under no obligation to store or preserve that content.
In fact, NCSoft would be more inclined to just wipe the data from their servers - that is, of course, assuming they haven't done it already - as that would remove the subject matter of any ownership claims you or anyone else may file.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 23, 2013, 05:00:59 PM
In fact, NCSoft would be more inclined to just wipe the data from their servers - that is, of course, assuming they haven't done it already - as that would remove the subject matter of any ownership claims you or anyone else may file.

Having been in that world from the sysadmin side and working with legal teams, I can already tell you they took multiple full backups of their servers prior to wiping them out.  Their legal team would need this should a lawsuit form later.  If they didn't they'd have some serious problems as the courts would likely grant sanctions against them.  That discovery phase can be pretty nasty.  I had to deal with the restoration when a company I worked for shutdown a division I was a sysadmin for.  Constant requests for restores of data for the legal team to sanitize for turn over to the other legal team requesting the documents.  The point of the multiple backups is backup media isn't nearly as reliable as the companies that make it would have you believe.

 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Matthew Orlock on March 24, 2013, 04:38:21 AM
Friend tells me they were hit by a trojan trying to download one of the files linked here. Not sure what the deal is with that but best everyone be very careful in any reguard.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on March 24, 2013, 04:55:36 AM
Friend tells me they were hit by a trojan trying to download one of the files linked here. Not sure what the deal is with that but best everyone be very careful in any reguard.

Chances are, it wasn't a virus. Many virus protection programs define many common file types as viruses, just because they way they behave. Chances are it isn't a virus, and your (their) protection is just being picky.

Also, if it was posted here, chances are it's safe. It isn't a 100% guarantee. I just can't see any of our community uploading malicious software, for the intent to harm others.

Is it possible? Sure. Unlikely, very much so. You just need to be careful. Don't download anything you don't trust.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Heroette on March 24, 2013, 05:01:26 PM
I ended up getting a virus when I tried to download the client from SEGS but I think thats because I think I downloaded the wrong thing.  There are many "download buttons" on the screen.  I think it was "Find22" browser hijack.  I had to restore my computer to an earlier date to get rid of it.  But I finally did get it downloaded.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on March 25, 2013, 12:27:24 PM
I didn't get any troubling 'ware from SEGS, but my son ended up with the searchnu hijacker on his laptop that survived a reset to factory defaults from the recovery partition. Nothing I could do would remove it. Fortunately, it was limited to Chrome, so I just uninstalled it and put Firefox on. And removed his install privileges.

I used to be really good at removing malware, but these hijackers are getting into places that I can't seem to reach. And, yes, I checked forums. That particular hijacker cost me the better part of a day.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on March 25, 2013, 12:39:54 PM
I am not particularly adept at malware-fighting; last time I had a major problem with one, I spent most of a week's worth of spare time hunting down precisely what it was by file name, locating it using an anti-virus scanner (that couldn't remove it, just find it), and then hunting on google for a solution. That particular one required me to root-kit my own PC, reboot into a mode the root kit could open, delete the program, then reboot again, bypass boot-up with the root kit to get to it a second time before it could copy itself as part of the boot process, and finally delete it and its installer out of my registry and my hard drive while the root kit held my computer in a barely-running, access-your-files-with-no-security-against-screwing-up-at-all state.

I then had to reboot it a penultimate time, still bypassing things, to make sure it was gone. Finally, I could reboot it normally.

Oh, and the root kit had to be renamed to something other than its actual file type or the virus would delete the root kit before I could reboot my computer. I forget the precise way I had to go about activating said rootkit to get around that.

Let me tell you: I was leery of using a root kit; what if I was giving control of my computer to somebody else? Fortunately, I did research it carefully and identified a place that had a lot of positive recommendations from well-thought-out posters and was backed up by references from outside sources, and it did work. So my computer was mine again. But holy cow was that a lot of work. x_x

(This was a few years ago, now.)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on March 26, 2013, 12:13:21 AM
I am not particularly adept at malware-fighting; last time I had a major problem with one, I spent most of a week's worth of spare time hunting down precisely what it was by file name, locating it using an anti-virus scanner (that couldn't remove it, just find it), and then hunting on google for a solution. That particular one required me to root-kit my own PC, reboot into a mode the root kit could open, delete the program, then reboot again, bypass boot-up with the root kit to get to it a second time before it could copy itself as part of the boot process, and finally delete it and its installer out of my registry and my hard drive while the root kit held my computer in a barely-running, access-your-files-with-no-security-against-screwing-up-at-all state.

I then had to reboot it a penultimate time, still bypassing things, to make sure it was gone. Finally, I could reboot it normally.

Oh, and the root kit had to be renamed to something other than its actual file type or the virus would delete the root kit before I could reboot my computer. I forget the precise way I had to go about activating said rootkit to get around that.

Let me tell you: I was leery of using a root kit; what if I was giving control of my computer to somebody else? Fortunately, I did research it carefully and identified a place that had a lot of positive recommendations from well-thought-out posters and was backed up by references from outside sources, and it did work. So my computer was mine again. But holy cow was that a lot of work. x_x

(This was a few years ago, now.)


That sounds like a ton of fun. Wish I could have that kind of fun.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on March 26, 2013, 01:31:59 AM
Malwarebyte should be on every single system.

It is without doubt the best removal tool I have ever used. Boot into Safemode and run Malwarebyte and it will clean almost anything.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on March 26, 2013, 03:13:06 AM
Wow, I probably would have lugged my tower outside and put an axe through it before I tried anything like that.  8)

I've always been one to cut the Gordian knot, patience is not a virtue of mine. But yikes.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on March 26, 2013, 01:46:44 PM
Malwarebyte should be on every single system.

It is without doubt the best removal tool I have ever used. Boot into Safemode and run Malwarebyte and it will clean almost anything.
That was part of the second step in the process. I got it after my antivirus found it. Malwarebyte let me boot into safemode so the root kit could get installed. If I had the root kit installer as a .exe outside of that, it would be deleted before I could use it.

I forget the name of the malware (it was something that had a very similar name to a legit windows process, for obvious reasons), but it was tenacious.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 26, 2013, 02:16:58 PM
I am not particularly adept at malware-fighting; last time I had a major problem with one, I spent most of a week's worth of spare time hunting down precisely what it was by file name, locating it using an anti-virus scanner (that couldn't remove it, just find it), and then hunting on google for a solution. That particular one required me to root-kit my own PC, reboot into a mode the root kit could open, delete the program, then reboot again, bypass boot-up with the root kit to get to it a second time before it could copy itself as part of the boot process, and finally delete it and its installer out of my registry and my hard drive while the root kit held my computer in a barely-running, access-your-files-with-no-security-against-screwing-up-at-all state.

I then had to reboot it a penultimate time, still bypassing things, to make sure it was gone. Finally, I could reboot it normally.

Oh, and the root kit had to be renamed to something other than its actual file type or the virus would delete the root kit before I could reboot my computer. I forget the precise way I had to go about activating said rootkit to get around that.

Let me tell you: I was leery of using a root kit; what if I was giving control of my computer to somebody else? Fortunately, I did research it carefully and identified a place that had a lot of positive recommendations from well-thought-out posters and was backed up by references from outside sources, and it did work. So my computer was mine again. But holy cow was that a lot of work. x_x

(This was a few years ago, now.)

Wow. That is bad but not the first case of that I heard of. And hada few computers kick bucket from that, mostly because it was about time for a new one anyways and didnt have time to do all of that with the old one.

That is why I'm also, some call it paranoid, (but until they buy me a new computer...they can call it what ever they want as it's meaningless) very very careful with stuff I download "trusted" source or not. To me trusted source dont mean a few people online saying "I downloaded it and nothing happened to me." Which is fine with me, until they get quiet when I ask, "Since you vouching for it, if this program destroys my computer, you will have $800 plus gas money money gramed to me the next day? No? Well then seeing how it's my $800 and gas on the line, then it looks like the decision of whether or not it's safe is mine to make."


Then I know some people that refuse to downlaod anything that either dont come from a major corporation and or one that dont fire off their security setting on ultra high. That is beyond my threshold but I completely understand. Computers aint cheap and not all have skills nor time to fix it. Paranoid or not, it seems to work as they dont have computers. In fact one in my closet was donated to me by one of the said person. I dont use it much but it runs liek a champ. They had it custom built and and had the chip, motherboard video card and stuff updated every so often (still run XP). But never ever had a virus in the past decade. In that time, I went through 8 units listening to people "It's safe. I download it and nothing happens." Yet not a single one put a single dollar into the replacement computer or even to get it fixed. No more listening to people on the web, I decided. I have to decide what is safe or not and they can call it paranoid, old fashioned, crazy, hootnanny for all I care. :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on March 26, 2013, 03:12:40 PM
As you say, it's your computer. Me, even if I was 100% positive that something was safe, I wouldn't make that promise because there's no way I could be sure a) the guy making the claim didn't already have a busted computer and was scamming me, b) that he didn't foolishly download something else, or otherwise get some malware on his machine, which he is incorrectly attributing to what I know was safe, and c) that his machine didn't just suffer a hardware failure and he doesn't know any better.

I'm certainly not spending the additional time and money to come see his device and verify, even if I were 100% confident in my ability to accurately diagnose it.

Since I am very careful about what I download, I suspect the malware got in from a banner ad or something. I've since installed adblock+; I don't know if that made a difference, as I'd only had the problem the once anyway, but it hasn't repeated. Also, the less crowded web pages ARE nice.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 26, 2013, 03:19:18 PM
As you say, it's your computer. Me, even if I was 100% positive that something was safe, I wouldn't make that promise because there's no way I could be sure a) the guy making the claim didn't already have a busted computer and was scamming me, b) that he didn't foolishly download something else, or otherwise get some malware on his machine, which he is incorrectly attributing to what I know was safe, and c) that his machine didn't just suffer a hardware failure and he doesn't know any better.

I'm certainly not spending the additional time and money to come see his device and verify, even if I were 100% confident in my ability to accurately diagnose it.

Since I am very careful about what I download, I suspect the malware got in from a banner ad or something. I've since installed adblock+; I don't know if that made a difference, as I'd only had the problem the once anyway, but it hasn't repeated. Also, the less crowded web pages ARE nice.

exactly.

That why it slightly annoys me when some people pushy or offended when ya dont want to download a program they are vouching for. Not saying at all that has happened here, which it hasnt. But they cant gurantee none of the stuff on my end. I could be telling them anything for all I know. Sometimes it's best to offer it then leave it up to the person to download it or not if they feel comfortable because ultimately it's their system and wallet.

Got to be careful about those banners. Sometimes they are tricky and a person can click on them before they realize what happened. Like there are some that move or auto size when you're trying to click on something else but just so happen to expand right where you are clicking. Next thing ya know, ya downloaded a virus.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on March 26, 2013, 03:23:03 PM
Worse, I'm given to understand there are exploits to trick a browser into auto-executing a malware installation via the code that makes a banner "work." Since banners can have motion, interactable flash, and even (ugh) sound, they do load things into your machine's active processing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on March 26, 2013, 03:34:44 PM
For what it's worth, I can safely claim that all of our software is safe.  And we've always hosted our own files, so unless we get compromised in a very specific manner, links to our software should be safe.  I've gotten to where I absolutely loathe free download sites like CNet, Sourceforge, etc., specifically because of this reason, that they hide download links and have big, obnoxious banners and buttons that say "DOWNLOAD HERE!!!" that link to apps that are from advertisers, not what you're actually trying to download.  Definitely be VERY careful when downloading software off of a third-party web site.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 26, 2013, 03:35:33 PM
Worse, I'm given to understand there are exploits to trick a browser into auto-executing a malware installation via the code that makes a banner "work." Since banners can have motion, interactable flash, and even (ugh) sound, they do load things into your machine's active processing.
Yep.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 26, 2013, 03:46:55 PM
For what it's worth, I can safely claim that all of our software is safe.  And we've always hosted our own files, so unless we get compromised in a very specific manner, links to our software should be safe.  I've gotten to where I absolutely loathe free download sites like CNet, Sourceforge, etc., specifically because of this reason, that they hide download links and have big, obnoxious banners and buttons that say "DOWNLOAD HERE!!!" that link to apps that are from advertisers, not what you're actually trying to download.  Definitely be VERY careful when downloading software off of a third-party web site.

I don't use many free download sites and haven't used any in the past year at least. Got a tech support guy on another game requesting information that is obtained through this third party free download site. It puts me at a crossroad. While he probably means well it could add problems to.my computer. Yet he might not be able to fix issue. My security identify it as malware. Looks like I either have find and fix on my iwn ir walk away from the game.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JetFlash on March 26, 2013, 06:00:52 PM
Worse, I'm given to understand there are exploits to trick a browser into auto-executing a malware installation via the code that makes a banner "work." Since banners can have motion, interactable flash, and even (ugh) sound, they do load things into your machine's active processing.


Mozilla Firefox + NoScript + AdBlock Plus + Flashblock + Ghostery =  happy Web browsing.  You may need to do some manual enables to use your trusted sites, but you won't get any of that auto-executing crap.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 26, 2013, 06:50:01 PM

Mozilla Firefox + NoScript + AdBlock Plus + Flashblock + Ghostery =  happy Web browsing.  You may need to do some manual enables to use your trusted sites, but you won't get any of that auto-executing crap.
Ah yes got Firefox about two months ago and no more ads not even on Youtube videos. I dont even bother with IE anymore. Looking back, not sure how did I manage with that or what was I thinking even using that with all the security holes IE had that seemed to get bigger with each update. Today, I'm going to even delete it off my computer totally and finally get rid of that symbol.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on March 26, 2013, 06:54:16 PM
No, you want to keep IE. There are some things that will not work in anything else. (A fair number of government form sites.) They're not common, but WHEN you run into one - and you will - you'll be glad all you have to do is gnash your teeth and use IE rather than having to struggle and hope you can find a work-around.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 26, 2013, 08:06:28 PM
No, you want to keep IE. There are some things that will not work in anything else. (A fair number of government form sites.) They're not common, but WHEN you run into one - and you will - you'll be glad all you have to do is gnash your teeth and use IE rather than having to struggle and hope you can find a work-around.

Dont worry got a gov. computer for that.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on March 26, 2013, 09:35:13 PM
I haven't used anything newer than Server/Exchange 08, but the OWA worked much better in IE than in other browsers. That's kind of limited, but, if you work in an office that uses an exchange server, it makes working from home slightly less painful. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JetFlash on March 27, 2013, 05:38:18 PM
Ah yes got Firefox about two months ago and no more ads not even on Youtube videos. I dont even bother with IE anymore. Looking back, not sure how did I manage with that or what was I thinking even using that with all the security holes IE had that seemed to get bigger with each update. Today, I'm going to even delete it off my computer totally and finally get rid of that symbol.


Technically you can't "remove" IE, because MS in their infinite wisdom tied the thing into Windows.  You can hide the shortcut, but you have to work quite hard to actually remove it (it is possible, but it is not for the faint of heart).
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JetFlash on March 27, 2013, 05:43:30 PM
I haven't used anything newer than Server/Exchange 08, but the OWA worked much better in IE than in other browsers.

This is not accidental.  It will automatically degrade the functionality of OWA unless you are using IE.  More MS wisdom.  :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 27, 2013, 07:34:58 PM

Technically you can't "remove" IE, because MS in their infinite wisdom tied the thing into Windows.  You can hide the shortcut, but you have to work quite hard to actually remove it (it is possible, but it is not for the faint of heart).
Hm
 I thought only thing tied to windows an ie is the update which I do manually myself anyways and things like the clock. So I think it can be removef no issues. Besides not ever computer is hooked up to the internet yet windows work fine
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on March 27, 2013, 09:37:56 PM
This is not accidental.  It will automatically degrade the functionality of OWA unless you are using IE.  More MS wisdom.  :D

I know it was deliberate, but it is a necessary evil if you have a MS domain account and can't afford a copy of Outlook. I don't know when it started, but, at least since '08, you can't install IE on anything not running Windows, either. That's also deliberate.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 27, 2013, 09:42:54 PM
I know it was deliberate, but it is a necessary evil if you have a MS domain account and can't afford a copy of Outlook.
I don't have any MS domain accounts thank goodness.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Aura Controller on March 28, 2013, 05:56:08 AM
I didn't get any troubling 'ware from SEGS, but my son ended up with the searchnu hijacker on his laptop that survived a reset to factory defaults from the recovery partition. Nothing I could do would remove it. Fortunately, it was limited to Chrome, so I just uninstalled it and put Firefox on. And removed his install privileges.

I used to be really good at removing malware, but these hijackers are getting into places that I can't seem to reach. And, yes, I checked forums. That particular hijacker cost me the better part of a day.

I got that same crap on my system it messed with chrome and firefox. But I'm a hard ass. I got rid of that bull by hand. Heh. Hackers and kiss my shiny metal... oh wait. I mean yeah...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: srmalloy on March 28, 2013, 04:30:24 PM
Technically you can't "remove" IE, because MS in their infinite wisdom tied the thing into Windows.  You can hide the shortcut, but you have to work quite hard to actually remove it (it is possible, but it is not for the faint of heart).

You can't actually remove it completely without graunching the help functionality -- the .chm (compiled Windows help) files use the IE rendering engine for presentation. If you remove the rendering engine, you lose the ability to get help in any program that uses the Windows Help structure.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mister Bison on March 28, 2013, 04:57:07 PM
And I'm so much fond of people wanting to get rid of a handful of megs software that is totally harmless if unused. (I mean, really unused, except to download firefox and go to secure websites). Especially when, unlike windows, you don't get money out of removing it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 28, 2013, 05:44:15 PM
You can't actually remove it completely without graunching the help functionality -- the .chm (compiled Windows help) files use the IE rendering engine for presentation. If you remove the rendering engine, you lose the ability to get help in any program that uses the Windows Help structure.

yeah noticed that when I finally got most IE and most of those other useless for my purpose programs that are tied to it deleted. Got a few more left. Only lost features I didnt want, didnt care for, didnt know existed, and didnt find a use for, but most were already disabled from the past.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on March 28, 2013, 10:58:43 PM
Mozilla Firefox + NoScript + AdBlock Plus + Flashblock + Ghostery =  happy Web browsing.  You may need to do some manual enables to use your trusted sites, but you won't get any of that auto-executing crap.
NoScript + AdBlock Plus + RequestPolicy here. NoScript makes Flashblock redundant.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JetFlash on March 29, 2013, 12:33:22 AM
NoScript + AdBlock Plus + RequestPolicy here. NoScript makes Flashblock redundant.


Almost, though I do like being able to control when and what Flash plays on trusted sites.  If you don't want Flash at all then NoScript will handle it fine.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on March 29, 2013, 03:48:35 AM

Almost, though I do like being able to control when and what Flash plays on trusted sites.  If you don't want Flash at all then NoScript will handle it fine.

Youtube does have that annoying habit of autoplaying too.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The White Rager on March 29, 2013, 02:29:20 PM
Quote
Malwarebyte should be on every single system.

It is without doubt the best removal tool I have ever used. Boot into Safemode and run Malwarebyte and it will clean almost anything.

Malwarebyte is good, SUPERAntiSpyware is better. I had Malwarebyte for quite a while on my system and it certainly kept me out of trouble, bailed me out of some bad stuff too (I originally found it when I'd been landed with one of those really tough viruses that detect and interfere with anything that would stop them). But SUPERAntiSpyware is another level up, cleans out alllll the little buggers that have hitched onto my system. Just as free as Malwarebytes. Get it I tell you.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: srmalloy on March 29, 2013, 04:18:59 PM
Youtube does have that annoying habit of autoplaying too.

YouTube will autoplay videos on its site, which is a known thing that you can allow for. More annoying to me are the news sites that will sometimes have an embedded video from a completely unrelated story on a page that's set to autoplay, so if you browse news sites like I do -- read down the page, peruse the links to related stories, and open the ones that sound interesting in new tabs -- and have to flip through six or seven tabs, scrolling each one up and down to find which one is playing the запупу конская video...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on March 29, 2013, 08:02:30 PM
YouTube will autoplay videos on its site, which is a known thing that you can allow for. More annoying to me are the news sites that will sometimes have an embedded video from a completely unrelated story on a page that's set to autoplay, so if you browse news sites like I do -- read down the page, peruse the links to related stories, and open the ones that sound interesting in new tabs -- and have to flip through six or seven tabs, scrolling each one up and down to find which one is playing the запупу конская video...

Yeah prior I just close those sites immediately
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Pyron 2.0 on April 07, 2013, 10:12:01 PM
Just found this thread..  Been out of it for a while.  I miss coh a lot.  Any new news?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on April 07, 2013, 11:02:50 PM
... запупу конская ...

I'm going to work this into conversation! My kids love that I swear in other languages, even though I don't speak them. Firefly, for instance, was a godsend!  ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on April 07, 2013, 11:04:29 PM
Just found this thread..  Been out of it for a while.  I miss coh a lot.  Any new news?

Plenty of things happening, but none of it involves the game being playable again.

Yet.

I hope.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on April 07, 2013, 11:33:05 PM
It is still nice to pop in old Atlas occasionally, though :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Golden Ace on April 08, 2013, 02:16:25 AM
It is still nice to pop in old Atlas occasionally, though :)

Need to find out how to do that.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kemphler on April 08, 2013, 02:44:14 AM
Need to find out how to do that.

Check out SEGS http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewforum.php?f=5
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SeaLily on April 08, 2013, 05:34:57 AM
It's nice when you can get movement in SEGS to work- though I've got that graphics bug that other people seem to be reporting.  Can't wait to see it get developed further.  Idealy we'd be able to play on an at-shutdown Beta version of the game, but hey, I4 isn't bad!  I have a lot of fond memories of the game back then.  So it'd still be a lot of fun.

Still, being able to "log in" and slide around Atlas for a bit is kind of fun in it's own dumb way.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: beelzebram on April 13, 2013, 05:58:23 PM
If ever a server comes up I would definitely be interested in a PM to test whether it be beta or stress testing. I have beta tested for many game releases over the years and have the knowledge of what is needed to give the devs the information they need to investigate and fix any problems encountered.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Greystar on April 22, 2013, 07:21:48 PM
I have hosted, ran and Modded many servers in my time and would do so with a CoX one as well once it's created I just no longer have the patients to re-write server code any longer so someone else would at least have something that works with the most recent (before shutdown) client and some kind of database containing missions info and preferably event info as well before I start looking into one again.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on April 22, 2013, 09:15:15 PM
Paragon wiki has all the mission, incarnate trial, tf etc info there. In terms of what takes place in them and npc quotes. And then when it comes time to adding powers all the data is there too.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Safehouse on April 26, 2013, 10:22:31 PM
It's nice when you can get movement in SEGS to work- though I've got that graphics bug that other people seem to be reporting.  Can't wait to see it get developed further.  Idealy we'd be able to play on an at-shutdown Beta version of the game, but hey, I4 isn't bad!  I have a lot of fond memories of the game back then.  So it'd still be a lot of fun.

Still, being able to "log in" and slide around Atlas for a bit is kind of fun in it's own dumb way.

Here's a random question (I plan to dl the SEGS stuff tonight and try it out): does the sound/music work? It may be weird, but I really loved the music and ambience sounds. Felt like it made up a lot of the game.

More than happy to slide around AP :). Have they figured out how to transfer zones and go to other places yet?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SARobb on April 26, 2013, 11:06:15 PM
More than happy to slide around AP :). Have they figured out how to transfer zones and go to other places yet?

Negative Ghost Rider, you are confined to Atlas for the time being...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Safehouse on April 26, 2013, 11:42:13 PM
Negative Ghost Rider, you are confined to Atlas for the time being...

Aww that's to bad... but I'll take what I can get! It'd be nice to be on again. (heeehee Ghost Rider)

Also it'll be interesting to see earlier stuff (I think it's i4, as I recall). I joined in issue 16 (just before issue 17 actually), and I never saw some of the really early things, like pre power proliferation or pre ED
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on April 28, 2013, 03:16:37 PM
Aww that's to bad... but I'll take what I can get! It'd be nice to be on again. (heeehee Ghost Rider)

Also it'll be interesting to see earlier stuff (I think it's i4, as I recall). I joined in issue 16 (just before issue 17 actually), and I never saw some of the really early things, like pre power proliferation or pre ED

There's not really much to see pre-power proliferation actually. Most of the power sets were simply limited to specific ATs, and that's about all there was to it.

Pre-ED on the other hand is very different from what we had at shut down. Granted, 6-slotting damage SOs, while sounding great in theory for when you manage to actually hit something, is just plain bad build planning for most attacks/builds in general.

ED was part one of a two step approach of getting us all to stop 6-slotting all of our powers with only one enhancement type so we could actually have semi-balanced builds that could function reliably. Part two of course being IOs...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ice Trix on April 29, 2013, 10:31:17 AM
Aww that's to bad... but I'll take what I can get! It'd be nice to be on again. (heeehee Ghost Rider)

Also it'll be interesting to see earlier stuff (I think it's i4, as I recall). I joined in issue 16 (just before issue 17 actually), and I never saw some of the really early things, like pre power proliferation or pre ED
It's interesting to see costume creator back then, and lots of other semi-trivial like stuff thats changed.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: BadWolf on April 29, 2013, 02:26:15 PM
There's not really much to see pre-power proliferation actually. Most of the power sets were simply limited to specific ATs, and that's about all there was to it.

Pre-ED on the other hand is very different from what we had at shut down. Granted, 6-slotting damage SOs, while sounding great in theory for when you manage to actually hit something, is just plain bad build planning for most attacks/builds in general.

ED was part one of a two step approach of getting us all to stop 6-slotting all of our powers with only one enhancement type so we could actually have semi-balanced builds that could function reliably. Part two of course being IOs...

The issue wasn't six-slotting damage, it was six-slotting recharge in powers that were intended to be situational. Perma-Hasten was so easy that there was no reason not to do it, especially with six-slotted Stamina giving you more Endurance than we get post-ED. Or perma-MOG, or perma-Unstoppable, or pumping out 3 sets of pets at once...

Don't get me wrong, I would totally play a pre-ED CoH. Because I loved the game back then, too. :) But ED was a necessary step in making the powers' behavior predictable enough to be able to add new powersets and archetypes and make them balanced against what was already in the game.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on April 29, 2013, 03:51:16 PM
The issue wasn't six-slotting damage, it was six-slotting recharge in powers that were intended to be situational. Perma-Hasten was so easy that there was no reason not to do it, especially with six-slotted Stamina giving you more Endurance than we get post-ED. Or perma-MOG, or perma-Unstoppable, or pumping out 3 sets of pets at once...

Don't get me wrong, I would totally play a pre-ED CoH. Because I loved the game back then, too. :) But ED was a necessary step in making the powers' behavior predictable enough to be able to add new powersets and archetypes and make them balanced against what was already in the game.

That was a part of the reason as well, but when you get right down to it, the reason was quite simply that players were intentionally 6-slotting all their powers with a single enhancement type which varied depending on the power, which while great in theory could inadvertently gimp your build, and in some cases could greatly imbalance your build in ways the Developers never intended.

I used 6-slotting with damage for my example simply because without accuracy enhancements you'll almost never hit anything, and that's one of the things that the developers wanted to steer people away from.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: srmalloy on April 29, 2013, 05:34:09 PM
Pre-ED on the other hand is very different from what we had at shut down. Granted, 6-slotting damage SOs, while sounding great in theory for when you manage to actually hit something, is just plain bad build planning for most attacks/builds in general.

You could exploit a very tight niche with a Scrapper by taking Focused Accuracy and six-slotting it for to-hit and end reduction so you could run it continuously, using that to take care of the missing Accuracy in your attacks, letting you six-slot them all for damage (or whatever mix of Damage, End, and Recharge you liked) without having to throw Acc into the mix. Doing it this way, of course, had the drawback that if you exemped down below the level at which you could use Focused Accuracy, your combat effectiveness dropped into the toilet.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on April 29, 2013, 05:52:13 PM
6 slotted BURN, that alone led to the IO's. Having huge orange numbers roll out from dumpsters was amazing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Minotaur on April 29, 2013, 07:08:16 PM
You could exploit a very tight niche with a Scrapper by taking Focused Accuracy and six-slotting it for to-hit and end reduction so you could run it continuously, using that to take care of the missing Accuracy in your attacks, letting you six-slot them all for damage (or whatever mix of Damage, End, and Recharge you liked) without having to throw Acc into the mix. Doing it this way, of course, had the drawback that if you exemped down below the level at which you could use Focused Accuracy, your combat effectiveness dropped into the toilet.

Devices blasters were quite popular with 6 slot targeting drone also, as were 1/5 or 2/4 end/heal slotted regen scrappers with 6 slotted stamina and QR to power the end use of constant attacking.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: BadWolf on April 29, 2013, 09:21:58 PM
That was a part of the reason as well, but when you get right down to it, the reason was quite simply that players were intentionally 6-slotting all their powers with a single enhancement type which varied depending on the power, which while great in theory could inadvertently gimp your build, and in some cases could greatly imbalance your build in ways the Developers never intended.

I used 6-slotting with damage for my example simply because without accuracy enhancements you'll almost never hit anything, and that's one of the things that the developers wanted to steer people away from.

I agree, but it wasn't just that it imbalanced the existing build, it was that future content couldn't be balanced without restoring a measure of predictability to the way existing powers performed. If your current ranged archetypes do somewhere between (random numbers here, I don't know how existing archetypes performed) 50-100 dps, depending on powersets, then you would know that the next powerset needed to fit in that range. But if perma-Hasten, 6-slotted Stamina, 6-slotted Targeting Drone and 6-slotted damage SOs meant that /Devices Blasters did 2000 dps, you're never going to be able to create anything else. Because do you balance future content around the 2000-dps freaks and leave everyone else frustrated, or do you balance around the 100-dps "expected" characters and leave the /Devices blasters bored to tears?

This, AIUI, is the problem Champions Online has with its freeform characters. Either you balance around the optimized freeform build, in which case the majority of powers become so sub-optimal as to be useless, or you balance around the hypothetical "normal" character, in which case the optimized build waltzes through content designed for whole teams. (Mind you, you can go too far the other way as well, which was the charge leveled against ED at the time--if nothing ever provides any advantage, then you're not really giving options, just the illusion of same. There's always going to be a better choice.)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Safehouse on May 04, 2013, 04:09:41 PM
See, this makes me look at the enhancement system at around the time I joined and wonder why ED got so much hate. While I can understand why someone might want to six slot recharge, damage, accuracy etc etc etc, it feels kind of... idk... game breaking to me. That's just my not-so-informed-opinion, but I'd much rather have limits to what I can do with enhancements to make build-making more intuitive and give more challenge to the game.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: xCain on May 04, 2013, 04:49:43 PM
I know theres no timeline for this segs server or anything, is there anything that can be done to help it move along? I just cant get into anything else!! Champions isnt even close to filling the void, neither is star wars. Its not like there is a whole lot out there to compensate for CoH, either the game is decent and the community sucks, or well i could go on and on, im sure just about everyone feels close to the same way. Let me know if theres anything i can do...thx
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kemphler on May 04, 2013, 08:16:45 PM
I know theres no timeline for this segs server or anything, is there anything that can be done to help it move along? I just cant get into anything else!! Champions isnt even close to filling the void, neither is star wars. Its not like there is a whole lot out there to compensate for CoH, either the game is decent and the community sucks, or well i could go on and on, im sure just about everyone feels close to the same way. Let me know if theres anything i can do...thx

I'd recommend going to their website and asking there, and there is also a 'Helping Out' forum on their site for just such things.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SuburbanHell on May 05, 2013, 06:13:33 AM
See, this makes me look at the enhancement system at around the time I joined and wonder why ED got so much hate. While I can understand why someone might want to six slot recharge, damage, accuracy etc etc etc, it feels kind of... idk... game breaking to me. That's just my not-so-informed-opinion, but I'd much rather have limits to what I can do with enhancements to make build-making more intuitive and give more challenge to the game.

From what I remember... ED got so much hate because at the time it was essentially changing everything we knew about the game that worked for our characters.  ED broke us a bit and made us far less "super" than we had been, but I think was necessary to prevent everyone from having to take things like hasten or stamina, although IIRC the whole fitness pool became inherent powers towards the end.  Anyway, IO's fixed that, but it took a lot of in-game time and money to get us back to where we once were, so there was something like... 5-6 issues where people were dealing with a massive re-tweak of their builds.  The second problem with ED was the way Jack communicated it to the public, he was kind of a troll at delivering news that was going to create a backlash.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on May 05, 2013, 03:57:15 PM
The second problem with ED was the way Jack communicated it to the public, he was kind of a unicorn at delivering news that was going to create a backlash.

There was a reason a bunch of people were happy when Jack left the game... Suffice to say, ED was necessary, but it could have been handled much better than it was, and Jack didn't seem to be helping matters much.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Golden Ace on May 05, 2013, 05:11:57 PM
There was a reason a bunch of people were happy when Jack left the game... Suffice to say, ED was necessary, but it could have been handled much better than it was, and Jack didn't seem to be helping matters much.

Much much better.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Safehouse on May 05, 2013, 09:07:35 PM
Much much better.

How exactly did Jack handle it, out of curiosity? I came in post-Jack, so all I've heard are rumblings
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Perfidus on May 06, 2013, 12:56:43 AM
Ideally, ED would've happened in the very same issue as Inventions. I think everyone would've more or less okay with it then, instead it was like three issues apart.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on May 06, 2013, 01:18:05 AM
 Basically Jack lied to the community and he got called on it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Golden Ace on May 06, 2013, 02:22:06 AM
How exactly did Jack handle it, out of curiosity? I came in post-Jack, so all I've heard are rumblings

as I recall he said there would be no more nerfs.

then he pulled ED on us and tried to blame the community, saying we thought of it.

and as said above,  ED and inventions should have came in the same issue.  would have lessened the pain very much.

 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Reiraku on May 06, 2013, 03:15:20 AM
as I recall he said there would be no more nerfs.

then he pulled ED on us and tried to blame the community, saying we thought of it.

and as said above,  ED and inventions should have came in the same issue.  would have lessened the pain very much.

He was half right, however. ED was originally suggested by early forum guru Pilcrow. And while he was correct when he said there would be no more major nerfs to powers, he was separating how those powers were altered by enhancements, making it more dishonesty by omission.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: silvers1 on May 06, 2013, 03:39:26 AM
as I recall he said there would be no more nerfs.

then he pulled ED on us and tried to blame the community, saying we thought of it.

and as said above,  ED and inventions should have came in the same issue.  would have lessened the pain very much.

ED was not needed, the game was fine as is. 
Never cared much for the IO system either - it made builds way too complicated and catered to the "must have lootz" crowd.


Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on May 06, 2013, 07:22:45 AM
Logged into swgemu recently, damn... I just think to myself why the hell couldn't we have had this? Soon an nge server will be out for those that want to play the games final publish (what I'm actually looking forward to) I had stopped playing swg long before it's announced shutdown due my dislike with how they were handling new content; I didn't like how alot of cosmetic options were being put into random cards in that tcg game along with many other long time asked for items.

My gosh, I know we have folks committed to getting two different mmos going but I really just wish the effort was going towards an emulator. In my humble opinion, I'd much rather play issue 23 or 24 city of Heroes than play 2 more games. I have hard enough of a time picking what to play now with the huge number of mmos out. And sadly I fear that when "phoenix" or "heroes and villains" is out I'll have an even harder problem. Should official city of heroes servers come back before then or a private server for Cox come out before then, it will easily be a no brainer for me to go back to what I'm missing.

One thing I think that needs to be said regarding other games. If you LOVE the game you are playing right now I URGE you to get people started making an emulator for it right now while the game is still healthy so when the day comes you won't be stuck without it like we are with city of heroes.

Bottom line: I don't want anyone else to have to feel the pain I'm feeling right now.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 06, 2013, 12:41:50 PM
Logged into swgemu recently, damn... I just think to myself why the hell couldn't we have had this? Soon an nge server will be out for those that want to play the games final publish (what I'm actually looking forward to) I had stopped playing swg long before it's announced shutdown due my dislike with how they were handling new content; I didn't like how alot of cosmetic options were being put into random cards in that tcg game along with many other long time asked for items.

My gosh, I know we have folks committed to getting two different mmos going but I really just wish the effort was going towards an emulator. In my humble opinion, I'd much rather play issue 23 or 24 city of Heroes than play 2 more games. I have hard enough of a time picking what to play now with the huge number of mmos out. And sadly I fear that when "phoenix" or "heroes and villains" is out I'll have an even harder problem. Should official city of heroes servers come back before then or a private server for Cox come out before then, it will easily be a no brainer for me to go back to what I'm missing.

One thing I that needs to be said regarding other games. If you LOVE the game you are playing right now I URGE you to get people started making an emulator for it right now while the game is still healthy so when the day comes you won't be stuck without it like we are with city of heroes.

Bottom line: I don't want anyone else to have to feel the pain I'm feeling right now.

A CoH private server has been my "shout it from the mountain top!" subject since the closure was announced. It was my belief then and now that a private server is the only future for CoH. Based on hints thrown around here and pretty much just a hunch, I do believe that an up to date private server is being worked on in some capacity.

Our community is far too skilled and devoted not to be, it's simply what I believe. I also believe it because we should have no evidence its being worked on because that's what is best for a private server. If the private server workers were keeping us all updated they'd also be keeping NCsoft lawyers updated. Until the server code is ready to be launched or released into the wild it absolutely must be kept a secret.

Yes, its excruciating not actually knowing what's going on, or even if it is at all, but I have faith in the talented and tirelessly devoted people of CoH's community. Thanks to people like them I believe Lightslinger will be flying again someday.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: vernes on May 06, 2013, 12:59:37 PM
I made this account purely to keep an eye on this thread, since I recently was reintroduced with the annoying fact that my CoH character is no longer available to me.

I was wondering, would some high density social network be a good platform to draw some attention to this project?
On one hand you want to introduce some tech saffy people to the project while on the same time wish to keep things low profile.
Seeing as CoH has been abandoned and no 3rd parties seem to be interested in picking it up, going public might cause the following:
1: Envoke the wrath of an unknown 3rd party that had plans with the product.
2: Causes CoH to become an interesting product and causes 3rd parties to get involved in purchasing it.
3: Nothing happens because no company is interested, including the original one because suing some freetime coders is too costly.

Is it an idea to seek out social media websites for more spotlight for the project?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 06, 2013, 02:29:56 PM
I made this account purely to keep an eye on this thread, since I recently was reintroduced with the annoying fact that my CoH character is no longer available to me.

I was wondering, would some high density social network be a good platform to draw some attention to this project?
On one hand you want to introduce some tech saffy people to the project while on the same time wish to keep things low profile.
Seeing as CoH has been abandoned and no 3rd parties seem to be interested in picking it up, going public might cause the following:
1: Envoke the wrath of an unknown 3rd party that had plans with the product.
2: Causes CoH to become an interesting product and causes 3rd parties to get involved in purchasing it.
3: Nothing happens because no company is interested, including the original one because suing some freetime coders is too costly.

Is it an idea to seek out social media websites for more spotlight for the project?

Even if there are no 3rd parties are interested in buying CoH, NCsoft will absolutely do its best to shut down any private server projects. SEGS has been lucky so far, I believe the only thing keeping them safe at this point is the fact that they are building a very, very old version of CoH and it is currently very unstable. If it got much farther along I'd caution them to expect a cease & desist in the mail very soon.

If an up to date (i23 or 24) went public with development efforts I believe NCsoft would mercilessly hunt them down then lawyer them to oblivion.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kriiden on May 06, 2013, 04:19:29 PM
Even if there are no 3rd parties are interested in buying CoH, NCsoft will absolutely do its best to shut down any private server projects. SEGS has been lucky so far, I believe the only thing keeping them safe at this point is the fact that they are building a very, very old version of CoH and it is currently very unstable. If it got much farther along I'd caution them to expect a cease & desist in the mail very soon.

If an up to date (i23 or 24) went public with development efforts I believe NCsoft would mercilessly hunt them down then lawyer them to oblivion.

Good. Let them. Hard to shut down something that's been spread across the internet and torrented.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 06, 2013, 04:28:21 PM
Good. Let them. Hard to shut down something that's been spread across the internet and torrented.

That's a fine plan once some stable server code is released, until then total development silence is, in my opinion, the way to go. Yeah, it really sucks for someone like me who is practicing the faith of a saint just believing something is happening, but it is better for the project.

And honestly, my hope is we get a server we can all rally behind and join back up on instead of scattered servers all over the internet. Somewhere we can rebuild the CoH community, and that is up to whoever builds that server. In order for that to happen right now we only have a faint hope of "Soon".

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Luna Eclypse on May 06, 2013, 07:13:58 PM
I've been away from these forums for a long while and I thought I'd check in. It's May already and I'm still having CoX withdraw from time to time... even have dreams about it in my sleep. I think I'm at the point where the long-term effects of what NCsoft did us, the devs, and the game itself are my now unwillingness to ever invest in an MMO again be it financially and/or emotionally. I'm done, I'm just literally done. I play around with Star Trek and Champions occasionally as a free player, but my heart is never into it. Any time a friend or acquaintance tries to talk about new MMO's coming or just the genre in general, I find myself being an absolute buzzkill for them and I don't mean to but the reality of our situation still stings and people who were not informed or aware of how deep the damage goes on a plethora of levels need to be made aware lest the publisher of their game decide to be a complete asshat one day.

So yes, I would very much love to see a private server running the final build on even a semi-functional level one day. I might not derive the same satisfaction I got from my actual investment of the real service, but it might offer some closure and still give me something to have some fun with.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Safehouse on May 07, 2013, 11:30:24 AM
I've been away from these forums for a long while and I thought I'd check in. It's May already and I'm still having CoX withdraw from time to time... even have dreams about it in my sleep. I think I'm at the point where the long-term effects of what NCsoft did us, the devs, and the game itself are my now unwillingness to ever invest in an MMO again be it financially and/or emotionally. I'm done, I'm just literally done. I play around with Star Trek and Champions occasionally as a free player, but my heart is never into it. Any time a friend or acquaintance tries to talk about new MMO's coming or just the genre in general, I find myself being an absolute buzzkill for them and I don't mean to but the reality of our situation still stings and people who were not informed or aware of how deep the damage goes on a plethora of levels need to be made aware lest the publisher of their game decide to be a complete asshat one day.

So yes, I would very much love to see a private server running the final build on even a semi-functional level one day. I might not derive the same satisfaction I got from my actual investment of the real service, but it might offer some closure and still give me something to have some fun with.

I know exactly how you feel, Luna. I'm still struggling pretty much every day with CoH withdrawal. It only kicked in over the past couple weeks for me, so I feel sometimes like the game JUST shut down. I'm pretty miserable without it as an outlet for my stress, though, which is something it always was. I'm following private server discussions very closely because I want to log on SO much.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on May 08, 2013, 12:36:24 AM
So, still nothing we can play?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Luna Eclypse on May 08, 2013, 03:09:52 AM
So, still nothing we can play?

Nothing for now besides the near completely non-functional SEGS thing.

I honestly sit here everyday and kick around the notion of trying to subscribe to Champions Online again. I have Gold account characters and everything so I'd have to sub to actually have access to anything I'd want to do creatively. I could just be grasping at straws to find anything even remotely resembling CoH to occupy my time. I did DCUO for a very short stretch of time and I'd never really consider doing that again... too restrictive. I've pretty much disconnected myself, so to speak, from online games because they're all just ultimately bad investments for me when they don't offer the same level of enjoyment and fulfillment as CoH.

All I do is sit and play Skyrim anymore. PC of course, I needs to have mah mods.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on May 08, 2013, 02:34:13 PM
Please understand the SEGS effort is only one of the efforts being made.

There is at least one other group trying to reverse engineer the i24 level game. I have zero knowledge of who, what or where just that it is quietly being worked.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on May 08, 2013, 03:11:17 PM

I have zero knowledge of who, what or where just that it is quietly being worked.

Yeah you and me and seemingly a lot of other people.

I guess when it said and done they will pop up with "surprise! I'm located in Nigeria and have this private server." Then gripe a few weeks later when only a dozen of people show up.

Not serious just poking a little. Of course they have stay under wraps. Too much gray area right now.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on May 08, 2013, 03:33:23 PM
I look at it differently, if I had the skills to reverse engineer a game, I would do the work and then post the code in the wild. If it is tied to the Titan site - bad things could happen. Titan is a waypoint like McAnally's pub - accorded neutral territory.

You don't want to color all of the players as grey. Some folks are white hats, some are black and having a place to go where you can all meet is very useful. The white hats would leave if the black hats started openly moving and the black hats would leave if only white hats were allowed. So you keep everyone neutral and let things just happen without a huge amount of supervision.

This can bother people, but remember we are all just volunteers.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: eabrace on May 08, 2013, 04:35:57 PM
Yup.  That's pretty accurate.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: NinjaWeazel on May 08, 2013, 10:29:26 PM
Now TonyV needs to get me a beer and a steak sandwich.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Safehouse on May 09, 2013, 11:36:28 AM
I look at it differently, if I had the skills to reverse engineer a game, I would do the work and then post the code in the wild.

A wild code appeared!


But seriously, I think I'd do the same. My plan is to keep a close eye on everything, use SEGS when I want to look at AP, us icon to build characters, and keep searching for any info that might be out there.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 09, 2013, 11:46:38 AM
A wild code appeared!


But seriously, I think I'd do the same. My plan is to keep a close eye on everything, use SEGS when I want to look at AP, us icon to build characters, and keep searching for any info that might be out there.

Same here, hope to find/hear something soon... :gonk:

It may just be me, but I don't use Icon nearly as much as I thought I would. I have both the regular and dev version shortcuts on my desktop, still have both Live and Beta clients ready to go, but I just never touch Icon. I think knowing I can't play after creating just completely zaps my creativity when it comes to new characters.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on May 09, 2013, 02:48:04 PM
I use Icon all the time; its where I archive my best costumes. But....

...The so-called "SkunkWorks" is one of my biggest hopes.

[Not the Skunkworks that used to build planes, natch. Altho they were awesome too. EDIT: Ooops. They are still building planes.]

I will wait for them to do their thing. As long as it takes. This will not be a fast or easy thing to do, but good things might come to those who can wait. At least, I hoping/wishing hard.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: eabrace on May 09, 2013, 03:42:21 PM
[Not the Skunkworks that used to build planes, natch. Altho they were awesome too. EDIT: Ooops. They are still building planes.]
Life on that campus is interesting, to say the least.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Safehouse on May 13, 2013, 11:28:07 AM
Same here, hope to find/hear something soon... :gonk:

It may just be me, but I don't use Icon nearly as much as I thought I would. I have both the regular and dev version shortcuts on my desktop, still have both Live and Beta clients ready to go, but I just never touch Icon. I think knowing I can't play after creating just completely zaps my creativity when it comes to new characters.


Whoooaaa how do you get the dev shortcuts? Or the live client? I've only been able to get the beta client so far...


And yes I hope to find something soon :gonk:
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 13, 2013, 01:25:51 PM

Whoooaaa how do you get the dev shortcuts? Or the live client? I've only been able to get the beta client so far...


And yes I hope to find something soon :gonk:

Right click on icon, create shortcut. On the new shortcut right click->Properties. Add -n to the end of the shortcut there, boom, access to all the dev parts and sliders.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on May 13, 2013, 03:17:23 PM
It may just be me, but I don't use Icon nearly as much as I thought I would. I have both the regular and dev version shortcuts on my desktop, still have both Live and Beta clients ready to go, but I just never touch Icon. I think knowing I can't play after creating just completely zaps my creativity when it comes to new characters.

Yeah, that's the problem I have. I thought I'd enjoy Icon a lot more, but designing the initial appearance and deciding on primary/secondary power sets of a brand-new character was only the first step, and I can't do any of the other steps.

And those other steps (particularly the step involving trying out the power sets I picked against a wide variety of enemies over a long period of time) are the ones I enjoyed far more than just making a character's first (and rarely final) costume.

It's frustrating.  The urge to play CoH is not fading over time.  It's getting stronger and stronger as I'm forced to play more of the competition.  It really was the perfect game for me (even if the game was not perfect in and of itself), and as good as the CoH community is, I mainly want the game back.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 13, 2013, 06:09:50 PM
Yeah, that's the problem I have. I thought I'd enjoy Icon a lot more, but designing the initial appearance and deciding on primary/secondary power sets of a brand-new character was only the first step, and I can't do any of the other steps.

And those other steps (particularly the step involving trying out the power sets I picked against a wide variety of enemies over a long period of time) are the ones I enjoyed far more than just making a character's first (and rarely final) costume.

It's frustrating.  The urge to play CoH is not fading over time.  It's getting stronger and stronger as I'm forced to play more of the competition.  It really was the perfect game for me (even if the game was not perfect in and of itself), and as good as the CoH community is, I mainly want the game back.

Man, that last part seems to be what is defining this community (CoH refugees at large, not just here at Titan). These feelings aren't fading, they're getting stronger if anything. At this point I think a majority of us would have moved on, myself included, but a day doesn't pass that I wish I could log in.

At another forum I'm a member of an ex-CoHer spent over $100 giving out free personalized CoH avatars, there's hundreds more dedicated ex-players like that out there, imagine how much they would donate to have their game back.

I'll yell this from the mountaintop again: to anyone working on a private server...you're our only hope. You have thousands of people counting on you and we are all thankful for your work.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on May 13, 2013, 06:11:25 PM
Yeah, that's the problem I have. I thought I'd enjoy Icon a lot more, but designing the initial appearance and deciding on primary/secondary power sets of a brand-new character was only the first step, and I can't do any of the other steps.

And those other steps (particularly the step involving trying out the power sets I picked against a wide variety of enemies over a long period of time) are the ones I enjoyed far more than just making a character's first (and rarely final) costume.
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.

We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Draeth Darkstar on May 13, 2013, 07:29:39 PM
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.

We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.

Something that I think City of Heroes learned about itself too late in it's life cycle:

The character builder needs to be as robust as physically possible. I don't just mean sliders and costume parts, either. I mean information. When I looked at my starting powersets in City, I often would look up RedTomax and ParagonWiki pages on them to learn more about their intricacies before deciding, especially before Real Numbers was added.

I also used to use YouTube a ton before the power customization features added a power previewer to the character builder. Being able to see exactly what my character can do when I make them is good - being able to see (almost) everything my character potentially could learn to do in the future was amazing.

Seriously though - everything you can tell me and show me about my potential character before it exists, I want!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on May 13, 2013, 08:37:21 PM
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.

We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.

I know that, for me, I had about five minutes of "fidgetting." I had to go through and accept all the veteran's rewards (not a chore, just a necessary housekeeping routine), "fix" my interface, and then organize my powers in the tray. Now, it's not that I had to do these things, but I could!  I think that's one of the things that bugs me about so many other games is not so much that I have to get used to a new interface, but I can't adjust the interface to be more comfortable to me. Now, my original layout was born of having a smaller, regular aspect ratio screen compared to what I have now, but I have yet to find an game with an interface as intuitively adaptable.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on May 13, 2013, 10:41:40 PM
Segev this was my usual method of creation by a day one live on player:

Name - I needed one that was unique and had a purpose (Spike the Guppy, Carillion, Heart of Glass)

The Look - how was its overall mood

Powers - I would study what they did and how they looked - also find synergies

In fact I am trying Neverwinter and find the UI klunky and actually stands in the way of my fun at times
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Absolute on May 14, 2013, 02:03:32 AM
I know that, for me, I had about five minutes of "fidgetting." I had to go through and accept all the veteran's rewards (not a chore, just a necessary housekeeping routine), "fix" my interface, and then organize my powers in the tray. Now, it's not that I had to do these things, but I could!  I think that's one of the things that bugs me about so many other games is not so much that I have to get used to a new interface, but I can't adjust the interface to be more comfortable to me. Now, my original layout was born of having a smaller, regular aspect ratio screen compared to what I have now, but I have yet to find an game with an interface as intuitively adaptable.

This 100x times over.

I still can't believe I can't drag my HP bar or powers to where I want them in other games. It just seems like such a basic feature that should really become a minimum standard in games. In fact, programs that run in the background and switch the placement/UI of everything are already popular for other games. The freedom of UI should really just be implemented in those games.

It became even nicer at the end  of CoH when I could save more than half my settings and just load them up through options.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Floride on May 14, 2013, 03:19:13 AM
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.

We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.
After popping into Galaxy or Atlas, the very first thing I always did was take a toon for a [walk]. If it looked goofy while walking, I'd head to Icon and adjust  stuff until it looked good or needed to be deleted/re-created. Also, colors in the costume creator looked different in sunny Atlas. Light red, for instance, would suddenly be pink (or at least too pink-ish).

The biggest problem with the Costume Creator was all the locked gear. I never understood why NC wouldn't give us the chance to try on new gear especially since they sold all that gear seperately.
If I'd ever said "okay, there's NO way I can justify making this toon WITHOUT this Barbarian belt", I probably would've paid NC more of that money they were always salivating over.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Twisted Toon on May 14, 2013, 04:24:03 AM
I know that, for me, I had about five minutes of "fidgetting." I had to go through and accept all the veteran's rewards (not a chore, just a necessary housekeeping routine), "fix" my interface, and then organize my powers in the tray. Now, it's not that I had to do these things, but I could!  I think that's one of the things that bugs me about so many other games is not so much that I have to get used to a new interface, but I can't adjust the interface to be more comfortable to me. Now, my original layout was born of having a smaller, regular aspect ratio screen compared to what I have now, but I have yet to find an game with an interface as intuitively adaptable.
One thing that I have noticed from seeing screenshots that other people have taken of their characters, just about everyone had a different layout for their interface. I had my power trays along the top, the right side, and the right half of the bottom of the screen. I've seen other people with their power trays on the top and left of the screen. What works for me doesn't always work for someone else.

If I'd ever said "okay, there's NO way I can justify making this toon WITHOUT this Barbarian belt", I probably would've paid NC more of that money they were always salivating over.

That was probably why my hands were a little slimy when I pulled out my credit card to get something...they couldn't wait to salivate all over it.  :-[
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 14, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
After popping into Galaxy or Atlas, the very first thing I always did was take a toon for a [walk]. If it looked goofy while walking, I'd head to Icon and adjust  stuff until it looked good or needed to be deleted/re-created. Also, colors in the costume creator looked different in sunny Atlas. Light red, for instance, would suddenly be pink (or at least too pink-ish).

The biggest problem with the Costume Creator was all the locked gear. I never understood why NC wouldn't give us the chance to try on new gear especially since they sold all that gear seperately.
If I'd ever said "okay, there's NO way I can justify making this toon WITHOUT this Barbarian belt", I probably would've paid NC more of that money they were always salivating over.

I don't remember when exactly, but the CC did exactly that. Basically you built your costume and there would be a shopping cart icon next to anything you didn't own. It was a really great incentive to explore and buy things you needed.

However unlockable items were not in the CC, I guess they didn't want to show them to you and then say "Wait until level 35 to run the ITF to get this piece!", that would have been a bummer.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on May 14, 2013, 01:08:12 PM
Thanks, all. That's useful to know. So having different "backdrop" scenes (with attendant lighting) would help, it sounds like. We are already planning to allow use of emotes and powers-as-emotes in the costume creator (though we're not yet sure if that'll be available initially, or will be an update as we move along), so that players can see what their character will look like doing various things.

The one thing I don't think we can quite do until the game is "live" is allow the use of unpurchased, non-free costume bits, because at least initially, it would be basically giving them away for free. The idea, though, has significant merit once we have more game in which to put these characters.

Having the powers give some decent description of what they do in a tool-tip sort of way sounds like a good idea, too, when you're building the character.

Does this sound like it addresses your concerns? Can you think of any other features that would be useful in a character creator?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on May 14, 2013, 03:13:05 PM
It's frustrating.  The urge to play CoH is not fading over time.  It's getting stronger and stronger as I'm forced to play more of the competition.  It really was the perfect game for me (even if the game was not perfect in and of itself), and as good as the CoH community is, I mainly want the game back.

As time passes, the enormity of what we all lost weighs ever more heavily upon me.

I would say that losing CoX has been one rung below the time I lost my best friend ever at age 10, because we moved out of state. This was a sentinel event in my life, and one I never really got over. My family moved every six months, often from state to state so as you can imagine, I quickly learned not to bond with others too much because it was just too painful.

I let myself become bonded to this game, to experience a similar sense of terrible loss when it was all ripped away with no warning. Please God, this cannot happen again. I just want to be somewheres I love, and feel safe within that little game-world. The real world is unsafe enough.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 14, 2013, 03:32:14 PM
As time passes, the enormity of what we all lost weighs ever more heavily upon me.

I would say that losing CoX has been one rung below the time I lost my best friend ever at age 10, because we moved out of state. This was a sentinel event in my life, and one I never really got over. My family moved every six months, often from state to state so as you can imagine, I quickly learned not to bond with others too much because it was just too painful.

I let myself become bonded to this game, to experience a similar sense of terrible loss when it was all ripped away with no warning. Please God, this cannot happen again. I just want to be somewheres I love, and feel safe within that little game-world. The real world is unsafe enough.

Thankfully that's the point of this thread, we will be back in-game and all this time without the game will seem much shorter once we're able to enjoy the game again.

Take the silence we have from a supposed i24 project as proof its happening, if it weren't I believe we'd be hearing a lot more "Look people there is no i23/24 server, its impossible, CoH couldn't be cracked!" Instead of that we get silence, which shows it IS being worked on and those working on it are being smart about it.

Take heart, hold on to those sentinel files or be ready to have fun leveling all your characters again. We will have our city back and this time it will be on our terms, not NCsoft's or anyone else's.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lightslinger on May 14, 2013, 03:41:01 PM
Question for techy types:

I had heard talk here and on the official forums that a private server could be placed in a country that does not have trade agreements with the US or South Korea. This would mean that any attempt by NCsoft to shut down that server would be futile. http://www.ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements (http://www.ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements) Currently the US only has free trade agreements with 20 countries and I bet South Korea has even less, so there are definitely plenty of places to pick from.

What I'm worried about is lag/latency issues. I've never played a server in another country, does anyone have any experience with that? I know CoH isn't a twitch game at all, so that helps, but too much lag could definitely be an issue.

Would it be possible for a server to be placed in America (where the bulk of CoH's playerbase is, no offense to players in other countries its just fact) and mask the location? I figured there may be some relay-technique that could hide the exact location of the server and prevent it from being found.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on May 14, 2013, 03:58:05 PM
I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think the concern is so much about free trade agreements. There are some countries where copyright law is essentially ignored, and that was, I believe, what was being suggested. The trouble with most of those countries is that the government tries to exercise tighter controls on what the users within their borders are using the internet for. In China, for instance, many of the computers in private use are running unlicensed copies of Windows, mostly still XP, but some websites are restricted. Much was made in the news a year or so ago about the Chinese government and Google at something of a stand-off over what restrictions Google was going to put up with, for instance.

Also, to Segev and the MWM team, my vote is for getting something that works. Don't shoot too high right out of the gate. There was a lot of stuff in CoH that we miss, but the devs had 8 years to get us there. Set a good foundation, and the rest can be built onto it. We're all clearly in this for the long haul, and we've shown ourselves to be a cooperative community. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on May 14, 2013, 05:43:07 PM
That is absolutely our goal. We are, ourselves, members of this community, but that doesn't excuse us from the need to keep our fingers on the various pulses. It'd be easy to fall into the trap of thinking, "We're from the community, so we know what it wants," and then insulating ourselves. We work hard not to do this.

Which is partly why I keep asking questions when I see comments that seem pertinent. While aiming for "achievable" is always our goal, it's helpful to know what achievements to prioritize to maximize the benefits what we deliver can give.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JetFlash on May 14, 2013, 05:55:10 PM
Can you think of any other features that would be useful in a character creator?


One of the things that Champions Online got right was the Power House, where you could level up and test out a new power or enhancement. If you didn't like it, you can back out and try something else!  Only after leaving the Power House do your choices lock in.  One of the strengths of CO's system IMHO.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Segev on May 14, 2013, 06:04:47 PM
Hm. We've had a mixed bag of people who think having to exit and go to a trainer is a good idea for various reasons, and some who think that it's a hassle that takes you out of the moment. Maybe that would be a good "perk." If you go to a trainer, you get something like CO's "power house" as you actually do train with your hypothetical new powers. If you train on the fly, you're locked in, but you got to do it easily enough.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on May 14, 2013, 07:50:35 PM
If you do the powerhouse make it part of the zone rather than a separate area. Extra loadscreens always suck. Even with a fast machine and a ssd.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on May 14, 2013, 08:11:00 PM
This is useful and interesting information for the Phoenix Project, I think. Can you please go into what your next steps were? Particularly anything that didn't require actually picking a fight with something or getting a mission to perform.

We will take these into consideration as we plan our the precise development order of things with the character builder for the Phoenix Project, and how it develops going forward towards the base builder.

Next would be, as someone else mentioned, setting up the UI: three bars, attack powers on bar 1, defense and other toggles on bar 2, travel powers and other miscellaneous powers - like Secondary Mutation and Mystic Fortune - on bar 3.  (I'd eventually add a fourth bar when the powers started to really pile up in the 40s)

And after that was actually playing the character - seeing how the character performed immediately, and trying to identify any holes that hadn't been immediately obvious from looking at the powers in the creator, to fill them in with future power picks, power polls, and eventually even Epic and Incarnate powers.

... I do like the idea of a Powerhouse-like structure for training, where you can try out powers before you pick them permanently.  One of CoH's little frustrations was always having to completely re-pick all your powers and reslot all your enhancements when all you wanted to do was fix the last one.  (CO handles respeccing much more simply and elegantly, being able to remove powers one-by-one working backwards as well as all at once, all for normal in-game money rather than special respec tokens)

Quote
Can you think of any other features that would be useful in a character creator?

Real numbers with an adjustable level bar like CoH had is a must for me.  I want to see exactly what all the powers do, numerically, before I settle on a powerset (especially if I'm locked into those Primary and Secondary powersets once I leave the creator).

... really, though, just start with the features from CoH's character creator as a baseline.  I don't think there was anything there that was worthless.  (Well, maybe the "playstyle" screen can be skipped)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: srmalloy on May 15, 2013, 03:17:22 PM
Man, that last part seems to be what is defining this community (CoH refugees at large, not just here at Titan). These feelings aren't fading, they're getting stronger if anything. At this point I think a majority of us would have moved on, myself included, but a day doesn't pass that I wish I could log in.

I think that a significant part of that is negative reinforcement; a lot of us have moved on to other games, where the shortcomings, limitations, and restrictions keep bringing up "CoH did this so much better" thoughts -- every time we play another game, we get reminded of what it was that we lost.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JetFlash on May 15, 2013, 05:54:12 PM
Hm. We've had a mixed bag of people who think having to exit and go to a trainer is a good idea for various reasons, and some who think that it's a hassle that takes you out of the moment. Maybe that would be a good "perk." If you go to a trainer, you get something like CO's "power house" as you actually do train with your hypothetical new powers. If you train on the fly, you're locked in, but you got to do it easily enough.

How it is implemented is (to me) secondary to having the ability to test new powers before locking them in, i.e. "try before you buy".  Whether or not I go to a special zone to accomplish this is not important to me.  I DO like the option of leveling up on the fly, and not allowing "try before you buy" in those cases.

I never liked having to visit a trainer just for the sake of visiting a trainer.  If there is functionality associated with visiting the trainer then I'm OK with that.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on May 15, 2013, 06:35:09 PM
I DO like the option of leveling up on the fly, and not allowing "try before you buy" in those cases.

Yeah, I can get behind that. If you know what you want and would like to move on to the next thing quickly, then open up your powers window and "click it to pick it", no takebacks. But if you want to preview things, get more detailed info and compare options, then you go to a specialized contact ingame. It makes sense... a trainer is there to share their expertise and help the character make an informed decision, right? It fits.

I also had the idea to make two different kinds of respecs. You'd have a slow, step-by-step process (like City had) that's earnable ingame, such as by currency or a straightforward task. You'd also have the much quicker kind (more like Mids, where you get a list of your selections and you can swap or alter them individually) that can be bought through a cash shop. That's what I always thought cash shops should be used for... convenience. Take something you can do in the game anyway, and make it simpler or more reliable.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Johnny Joy Bringer on May 21, 2013, 01:32:46 AM
How it is implemented is (to me) secondary to having the ability to test new powers before locking them in, i.e. "try before you buy".  Whether or not I go to a special zone to accomplish this is not important to me.  I DO like the option of leveling up on the fly, and not allowing "try before you buy" in those cases.

I never liked having to visit a trainer just for the sake of visiting a trainer.  If there is functionality associated with visiting the trainer then I'm OK with that.

I alway thought it would have been nicer to be able to go to the trainer sometime before the next level, and choose the next power then. So you knew what you were working towards. Why no have training, but have training before making the level?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: FlyingCarcass on May 21, 2013, 02:21:24 AM
All this talk about trying out a power before locking it in makes me think of Planetside 2 and Blacklight Retribution. In both games one can rent a weapon and take it for a time-limited test run before purchasing it and in Planetside 2 there's a "VR Room" where one can test out all available weapons, vehicles, and abilities against targets... I could see power trial runs and "training rooms" before locking in powers being useful to folks in a superhero MMO.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on May 21, 2013, 04:05:16 AM
But cant you see what a new power looks like, before you ever exit the character creator due to the power customization screen? Or are people talking about being able to try it out on a trial NPC or something...? Clueless here.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: saipaman on May 21, 2013, 04:33:50 AM
You could see most, but not all, of the animations in the power customization screen.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: malonkey1 on May 25, 2013, 05:24:13 AM
On an earlier topic, yeah, if there, hypothetically, was an entirely theoretical and purely rhetorical PM list for a supposed private server, I would likely be very interested in the possible prospect of being on such a list, if it were to exist.

[/redundancy]
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: therain93 on May 25, 2013, 12:18:49 PM
If you do the powerhouse make it part of the zone rather than a separate area. Extra loadscreens always suck. Even with a fast machine and a ssd.
You could always go with a hybrid approach -- let people level up as "normal" as well as say incorporate the powerhouse feature as an option of a supergroup-equivalent base.  It provides motivation for a base/lair, is strictly optional but can be thematic, and can become a bit of a curency sink if necessary.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Whiteseeker on May 26, 2013, 08:28:46 PM
I can not bring myself to read 30 pages so ummm, can someone be so kind as to PM me or send me a yes or no about the private server deal? I have waited months to check back about this. I have played no other MMO since the close of CoX. I want to play it even if it is alone on my comp! I don't mind...Much appreciated :) Emial is stitchwhitewolf@comcast.net if someone wants to just email me about my question. Thank you :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on May 27, 2013, 10:45:05 AM
I can not bring myself to read 30 pages so ummm, can someone be so kind as to PM me or send me a yes or no about the private server deal? I have waited months to check back about this. I have played no other MMO since the close of CoX.
The only available private server right now is SEGS: http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/index.php
If all you want is to visit Paragon City, then Titan Icon can help scratch that itch: http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7288.0.html

Quote
I want to play it even if it is alone on my comp!
CoH was built as a MMO. It has NO single player functionality whatsoever. In short, any assumption that "just a single player version" would be easier to produce is fundamentally wrong. It would actually amount to far more work than creating a private server.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on May 28, 2013, 10:18:17 PM
CoH was built as a MMO. It has NO single player functionality whatsoever. In short, any assumption that "just a single player version" would be easier to produce is fundamentally wrong. It would actually amount to far more work than creating a private server.

Not entirely true, unless you mean re-working all the TFs and Trials to allow a single player to start them, and scaling open-world AVs/Giant Monsters down dramatically. The game, for the most part (especially after the AV change that scaled them down to EBs if your difficulty was low enough when solo), scaled pretty well for doing missions solo.

In fact, it would require about the same amount of time and effort I imagine that it does to create a private server, because essentially that's what you'd have to do. I think any "solo version" would essentially be mimicking a server locally on your machine, so why not just make the server and run it locally if it's going to do the exact same thing?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Sol Eternal on May 28, 2013, 10:27:50 PM
The Icon now allows access to the zones. It's great to fly around Paragon once again. See this thread...

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7288.0.html

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on May 28, 2013, 10:41:06 PM
Not entirely true, unless you mean re-working all the TFs and Trials to allow a single player to start them, and scaling open-world AVs/Giant Monsters down dramatically. The game, for the most part (especially after the AV change that scaled them down to EBs if your difficulty was low enough when solo), scaled pretty well for doing missions solo.

In fact, it would require about the same amount of time and effort I imagine that it does to create a private server, because essentially that's what you'd have to do. I think any "solo version" would essentially be mimicking a server locally on your machine, so why not just make the server and run it locally if it's going to do the exact same thing?

well hell I should of posted my question about single payer and COX here.

From what I gather about private servers given that the population is probably going to be a lot smaller, it make sense to make it single player capable too. Or else it would render 90% of the end game moot (if that version is used) and any TF/Trial is moot and useless. Which leaves the mundane repeat with different skin 30% of them being CoT missions to be played over and over and over and over which dont sound like much fun to me personally.

From the looks of it, seeing how alot of things already scaled to EB for single player and up dependign on team size the mechanic is already there and by definition, it's there for TF and trials. That why with small team on some TFs you end up with EB at end instead of full AV for larger teams. It's probably isnt hard to scale it for single player since the scale mechanics is already there anyways.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on May 28, 2013, 11:22:25 PM
well hell I should of posted my question about single payer and COX here.

From what I gather about private servers given that the population is probably going to be a lot smaller, it make sense to make it single player capable too. Or else it would render 90% of the end game moot (if that version is used) and any TF/Trial is moot and useless. Which leaves the mundane repeat with different skin 30% of them being CoT missions to be played over and over and over and over which dont sound like much fun to me personally.

From the looks of it, seeing how alot of things already scaled to EB for single player and up dependign on team size the mechanic is already there and by definition, it's there for TF and trials. That why with small team on some TFs you end up with EB at end instead of full AV for larger teams. It's probably isnt hard to scale it for single player since the scale mechanics is already there anyways.

True, but if you want to rescale those TFs and Trials down, I imagine that could be done by adjusting things on the server's setup in some fashion, which would be something that can wait until after a functioning server can be established and released into the wild.

Essentially, all you'd need to do is override the TF/Trial team member requirements from 4(or whatever it is) to 1 so it can be started solo, and the rest is a matter of making sure your difficulty settings match what you can actually handle. I've known people who've duo-ed Positron TFs(The original grindfest version that was the bane of so many peoples' low-level careers), so if two people can tackle that, one person shouldn't be much harder. But again, that can probably be changed from server settings for the NPCs that are being spawned for that mission. (I think all the NPCs were probably difficulty-scaled and setup from the servers, not from the client, so again, a Server would be needed to handle the NPCs)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kistulot on May 28, 2013, 11:26:11 PM
If enough of the AE could be cobbled together to work, I imagine we'd have plenty of content even if they were the only mishes that worked besides radios and street sweeping :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on May 28, 2013, 11:41:29 PM
True, but if you want to rescale those TFs and Trials down, I imagine that could be done by adjusting things on the server's setup in some fashion, which would be something that can wait until after a functioning server can be established and released into the wild.

Essentially, all you'd need to do is override the TF/Trial team member requirements from 4(or whatever it is) to 1 so it can be started solo, and the rest is a matter of making sure your difficulty settings match what you can actually handle. I've known people who've duo-ed Positron TFs(The original grindfest version that was the bane of so many peoples' low-level careers), so if two people can tackle that, one person shouldn't be much harder. But again, that can probably be changed from server settings for the NPCs that are being spawned for that mission. (I think all the NPCs were probably difficulty-scaled and setup from the servers, not from the client, so again, a Server would be needed to handle the NPCs)

yup
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on May 29, 2013, 12:37:39 AM
Not entirely true, unless you mean re-working all the TFs and Trials to allow a single player to start them, and scaling open-world AVs/Giant Monsters down dramatically.
Quite a few of the requests for "just a single player version" that I've seen went right into that territory, as I recall.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: daveyfiacre on May 31, 2013, 02:55:59 PM
Quite a few of the requests for "just a single player version" that I've seen went right into that territory, as I recall.

yep!

i've always figured, if there were to be a solo-version, a fun thing might be to scale everything to the player's level and the player actually be the only thing with an actual level so he could go just about anywhere at anytime, but i'm sure that would be broken and more work lol
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on May 31, 2013, 06:25:36 PM
But cant you see what a new power looks like, before you ever exit the character creator due to the power customization screen? Or are people talking about being able to try it out on a trial NPC or something...? Clueless here.

That is exactly it. Rather than choosing blindly (well, with MIDs maybe not so blindly) a power that might look cool but not have the effects (debuffs, damage, whatever) you want, you can try out powers to make sure they will work power-wise, not just looks-wise.

And I fully support such a trying out type thing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: KrazyKracker on June 19, 2013, 07:34:42 AM
If someone would PM or email (ksmithdyt1992@gmial.com) me very specific instructions on how to go about rekindling my passion for CoX, that would be incredible. I'm not very computer savvy, but I loved the game!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on June 19, 2013, 02:33:27 PM
Fortunately, you've misspelled the domain name, so you may be 'bot-proof, but you don't want to put your full email address in a publicly searchable forum, like this. You open yourself up to Spam and other unwanted emails.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tahquitz on June 28, 2013, 05:44:50 AM
Just tried SEGS... If possible, I'd like to see chat come back in a small way (perhaps XMPP can be hooked into the server so any chat input heads to a Jabber server and can also be seen in a client outside of CoX... It's in XML, don't know if that helps.)

IANAP, of course.  Web development only goes so far.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blackbird_71 on July 10, 2013, 03:02:16 PM
I'd also so love to see this as a downloadable server. I realize there may exist one online solution, I'd still prefer to have my own home hosted server for me and my friends.

Thank you to all who have worked on this.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Blackbird71 on July 10, 2013, 07:06:43 PM
I'd also so love to see this as a downloadable server. I realize there may exist one online solution, I'd still prefer to have my own home hosted server for me and my friends.

Thank you to all who have worked on this.

Ok, so I haven't checked in here in a while, and what do I see on the thread list?  A topic with the most recent post made by me, and done today?!?  Figuring it was a bug, I came to check it out.  Lo and behold, there's the little difference of an underscore, lol!

Blackbird71, not to be confused with Blackbird_71!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Zombie Man on July 10, 2013, 07:38:38 PM
Clones!

You must now fight to the death leaving us wonder if the original one.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Phaetan on July 10, 2013, 08:10:59 PM
Wait!  We need nine more clones to make it a badge run!
(I can't help it, I'm from Pinnacle.)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Heroette on July 10, 2013, 09:43:50 PM
And Ewan McGregor!!!!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Zombie Man on July 10, 2013, 09:54:20 PM
Singing "We Can Be Heroes."
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cinnder on July 11, 2013, 03:05:22 PM
Singing "We Can Be Heroes."

But I want more than just for one day!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gleech on July 17, 2013, 02:39:33 AM
I'd also so love to see this as a downloadable server. I realize there may exist one online solution, I'd still prefer to have my own home hosted server for me and my friends.

Thank you to all who have worked on this.
I agree with this a lot. Though I know there's a fear of splitting the community too much I'd personally like to have total control over my own server than play on a hugely populated one. Plus, the fact is that some of the CoH community didn't really blend. RPers and Non-RPers constantly fought even on Virtue. Imagine if every server was merged into one, mixing every kind of player? That'd be pure chaos to mix all the different kinds of cliques. Speaking of, everyone would pretty much just be hanging out with their SG mates and all anyway. Most social interaction would probably be scarce. Not saying that there can't BE a 'main server'. If someone were to host one for those who can't/don't want to host a server themselves, that'd be great! But I'd strongly advise against making that the only server.

What would I do with a server you might ask? Well I'd probably host it purely for those I use to RP with, and in addition some friends who always wanted to play but never really could (either back before Freedom or even after due to f2p restrictions). Thinking about other private servers for games that I've run before, I like the ability to control the game the way I want to... and clearly with a unified server I'd be unable to do so, and thus I'd have less ability to control situations that might be fun for RP or just messing around with friends and breaking the game in a harmless way.

Anyway, this has been on my mind for awhile while stalking these projects... I felt the need to voice my opinion.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on July 17, 2013, 06:33:09 AM
I agree with this a lot. Though I know there's a fear of splitting the community too much I'd personally like to have total control over my own server than play on a hugely populated one. Plus, the fact is that some of the CoH community didn't really blend. RPers and Non-RPers constantly fought even on Virtue. Imagine if every server was merged into one, mixing every kind of player? That'd be pure chaos to mix all the different kinds of cliques. Speaking of, everyone would pretty much just be hanging out with their SG mates and all anyway. Most social interaction would probably be scarce. Not saying that there can't BE a 'main server'. If someone were to host one for those who can't/don't want to host a server themselves, that'd be great! But I'd strongly advise against making that the only server.

There's a lot to be said for both wide-open public servers and invite-only private ones. When any player at all is allowed to join a server, you end up meeting people you never knew you wanted to play with. I've met some great friends in City that I don't really have much in common with outside of the game. If I had only ever spoken with them through a forum first, I'd probably not have hung out with them at all, and that would be a shame since I'd be missing out on some really cool friends that way.

On the other hand, I pretty much agree with everything you're saying about why private servers would work well. Each and every server could tailor the game perfectly to that group of players, so that they get to play their perfect game without having to be interrupted by events and players they don't enjoy. The one and only hitch with that is, you only ever get to play with people you already know from somewhere else. You're protecting yourself from the things you don't like, sure, and that's great. But you're also preventing yourself from finding new things that you didn't know you'd like until someone else asked you to try it.

For my money, I think the ideal solution would be to allow both. Set up one public server with "vanilla" rules that anyone can log into, where players can mingle and find new people to play alongside. Also let folks set up their own private servers with their own adjustments to the rules and the environment so they can enjoy the game their way with their group of friends. (Although to prevent cheating, don't let them transfer those characters to the vanilla server.)

But one thing I definitely think should be enabled is for ALL the servers, public and private alike, to be able to hook up to one central set of global chat channels. Anyone on any server could talk to anyone on any other server, as long as you're in the same chat channel. Stuff like Help and LFG and etc would be local to that server of course, but the global channels would be exactly that: world-wide. Just like how someone on Freedom could talk to someone on Liberty if they were in the same global channel. But this way any server, public or private, could talk to any other if they wanted to (as long as it was online of course). I think that would help people get the exact play experience they want, while also still allowing the communication that would keep the playerbase at large interacting with one another.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on July 17, 2013, 02:10:52 PM
I really hope we get a few community servers going first. Because the big group stuff like incarnate trials, msrs, and hami wouldn't be possible to do. And I personally like to do more than roll lots of forgotten Alts and stand under atlas. I'm doing the alt thing now in DC and CO and I'm pretty bored and lonely :(
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: General Idiot on July 17, 2013, 02:16:10 PM
Regarding global chat being truly global - I'm pretty sure the server as it was had global chat in a mostly seperate system from regular chat to begin with so it should be possible, though I say that without any real understanding of what's involved. But it seems like if it's kept seperate then it should just be a matter of each server deciding what it takes care of and what gets sent to the global server, and some generous person providing somewhere to host that global server.

Personally though, I'd play on a big community server. Mostly because I like doing taskforces and incarnate trials at odd hours of the day when many of my friends aren't online.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on July 17, 2013, 02:23:14 PM
I really hope we get a few community servers going first. Because the big group stuff like incarnate trials, msrs, and hami wouldn't be possible to do. And I personally like to do more than roll lots of forgotten Alts and stand under atlas. I'm doing the alt thing now in DC and CO and I'm pretty bored and lonely :(

Same here.

Really, more than the Plan Z projects, more than the Google efforts (out of which I hope for the best but expect the worst), I'm really waiting for a community server and hope one opens soon.  I'm feeling more and more agitated every day.  The withdrawal symptoms are getting worse instead of better.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: saipaman on July 17, 2013, 03:11:14 PM
I want both.  A downloadable server so that the game can never be taken from me again and community servers so that I can play with other people or at least watch other people go by while I'm playing. 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mooties on July 17, 2013, 04:32:45 PM
I'd love to have my own personal copy of CoX  to just play by myself and modify my characters... I'd also like to play via LAN with some friends...
Also, why has there been very little on a private server of any kind :(?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Golden Girl on July 17, 2013, 06:59:17 PM
Also, why has there been very little on a private server of any kind :(?

The answer is contained in your question :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: damienray on July 17, 2013, 07:25:32 PM
Why even waste our time with a non-answer ?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: saipaman on July 17, 2013, 11:43:29 PM
Why even waste our time with a non-answer ?

To keep the dream alive!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Hyperstrike on July 19, 2013, 12:49:06 AM
I'd love to have my own personal copy of CoX  to just play by myself and modify my characters... I'd also like to play via LAN with some friends...
Also, why has there been very little on a private server of any kind :(?

Because writing a server is no small undertaking.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Golden Girl on July 19, 2013, 02:25:50 AM
Why even waste our time with a non-answer ?

Because it's a genuine answer :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Super Firebug on July 19, 2013, 02:54:21 AM
I'd love to have my own personal copy of CoX  to just play by myself and modify my characters... I'd also like to play via LAN with some friends...
Also, why has there been very little on a private server of any kind :(?

Believe me, the very best thing that could happen for us, as regards a private server, is for any efforts to remain totally stealthy and unheard-from, so that NCSoft's lawyer henchmen doesn't know where to direct any cease-and-desist efforts. And then, the server springs up, full-blown, in several places, and is downloaded and spread by lots of people. That way, NCSoft can't suppress all of the copies, and (as someone put it) their lawyers can spend years playing Whack-A-Mole all over the Internet.

It's hard to be patient when CoH is missed as much as we miss it, but at least we have several things that we can wait for. In the meantime, I'm enjoying using Icon to set up a group photo of my toons (when I can work on it), and I'm re-reading the comic books. (Speaking of which, did someone ever put out a corrected edition of the first Blue King pdf? In the copy that I have, one of the interior pages - where the team are fighting the Vahzilok to enter the building - is tacked onto the end; it breaks up the story. :/ )
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Captain Electric on July 19, 2013, 03:26:08 AM
Because writing a server is no small undertaking.

*Writes a small postcard to a server, just to be contrary* :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on July 19, 2013, 04:14:17 AM
Believe me, the very best thing that could happen for us, as regards a private server, is for any efforts to remain totally stealthy and unheard-from, so that NCSoft's lawyer henchmen doesn't know where to direct any cease-and-desist efforts. And then, the server springs up, full-blown, in several places, and is downloaded and spread by lots of people. That way, NCSoft can't suppress all of the copies, and (as someone put it) their lawyers can spend years playing Whack-A-Mole all over the Internet.


Well the problem also lies in the the fact that ex COX players are not psychically linked. Meaning if no one hears or know, for protection, then more than likely when "great download" happens, there wont be a bunch of people waiting for something or know of something to download that they dont even know exist. Which, while getting the word out even then, make it easier target for the lawyers than if if was in development stage. Because then now they have then, and have evidence of distribution and dont have to go after the others and instead hold the main source, or as near as they can, responsible for the distribution. Alot of MP3 file sharing sites went down like that thinking if they get it out no one will find them. Lo and behold most got sued for millions and held responsible for distrubution of those files and made it easier to prove the damage, unrepairable damage was done. At the same time, there are many that got away. Just have to be careful and stop being so surely that they are outsmarting every single legal team on the planet. More than likely their plan is not very new or that unstoppable. That is how many get caught. When they start thinking they are untouchable and their plan is infallable and under estimate their enemy, it bites them, usually to their suprise. Too much like it's a sure thing they will get away with it scrot free in Robin Hood fashion and the evil NCSOFT will be conqoured for ever and ever and everyone will live happily ever after while NCSOFT wouldnt dare do anything within their power to fight back. They will roll over and forget about it. Could be. But prepping only for that scenario and not looking at all possibilities that is possible can lead to utter disaster and someone being finanicially ruined for trying to do something they thought was the right thing to do.   

Remember they dont have to supress all copies. And more spread out it gets, the more they can charge as damage caused by the person they catch distrub. If I get a product(used in manner to mean IP trademark, Copyright/ and actual property and or product) and someone steals it and use it for their own, then I dont have to track down every single person that got it. I can find that one, preferable the one that started it, and charge them and make a good case that because of them, all those people that have the copy, that money should have been mine and thus they owe me the market price and damage and business loss of the known people that may have it and a bit more since it is still being distributed due to that person.  In the age of internet, most things if not everything online is traceable from the conversation to the people that suggest doing this to the people that is actually doing it and whether or not they read and or posted here or not.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on July 19, 2013, 10:16:00 AM
NCSoft doesn't stop the other games from having literally hundreds of private servers - and they even advertise for them.

If they don't know where they came from they can't stop them all.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Hyperstrike on July 19, 2013, 02:18:27 PM
NCSoft doesn't stop the other games from having literally hundreds of private servers - and they even advertise for them.

If they don't know where they came from they can't stop them all.

Uhm.  No.  No they don't.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11786
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on July 19, 2013, 03:41:29 PM
Uhm.  No.  No they don't.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11786

Basically.


Ironwolf-All I'm saying is there is a great possibility they might get away with it, but they should ensure they do a proper down the line risk assessment and know what the risks are of taking on such an endeavor. NCSOFT have been known to simply send C&Ds for many unauthorized servers even the ones that tried to stay hidden, for most of their now defunct games too. I'm just saying no one should go into it thinking that it's a guarantee that NCSOFT will not bother to make a move. On one it may stay underground but word have to get out if expectation for more people to know about it and more people that know about it and as they tell their friends especially through social media, which is a form of indirect grass root advertising for these private servers, the greater the risk that NCSOFT will find out. Only guarantee way to not allow NCSOFT to find out is that the maker of these private servers dont tell a single soul which defeats the purpose of making a private server that is designed for ex-coxers to play, which number into the thousands.

There are pros and cons, and while the focusing only on the pros may look like "being positive" and ignoring the cons look like "not being negative" it can set people up for failure and end up with risks and trouble they were not prepared for. I guess the quagmire is how to put the word out that a private server is available to the people without putting out word that there is a private server which can attract unwanted attention. 


Although I wonder, what are the chances of Icons becoming a sort of "private server" in the future? Think that is feasible? I think many ex-coxers by now heard of Icon, and so far it seems individual can "connect" to it, but say if somehow they were linked to each other or could connect to another's version of Icon as a "guest" of some sort. Or somethign of the likes.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on July 19, 2013, 03:48:36 PM
L2 was an active game when that setup was operating. (Still is, but that's not the point.) Also no one here is looking at selling access, insofar as anyone is doing anything. Not that any of this makes a private CoH server "safer," but it's less open to detection, even if only slightly.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Eoraptor on July 19, 2013, 05:13:24 PM
Quote
Although I wonder, what are the chances of Icons becoming a sort of "private server" in the future? Think that is feasible? I think many ex-coxers by now heard of Icon, and so far it seems individual can "connect" to it, but say if somehow they were linked to each other or could connect to another's version of Icon as a "guest" of some sort. Or somethign of the likes.

pretty much zero, Codewalker and those following the icon thread both agree that it will always be a client-side only thing. Nothing remains resident in the game once you turn it off from one instance to the next including any toon you create, and so much of the game's mechanics depend on spawns and server generated events that simply don't exist in the game client that it's technically infeasable for it to ever be much more than it is right now, which is a costume generator with limited access to a static world stored entirely on a computer.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on July 19, 2013, 05:42:07 PM
pretty much zero, Codewalker and those following the icon thread both agree that it will always be a client-side only thing. Nothing remains resident in the game once you turn it off from one instance to the next including any toon you create, and so much of the game's mechanics depend on spawns and server generated events that simply don't exist in the game client that it's technically infeasable for it to ever be much more than it is right now, which is a costume generator with limited access to a static world stored entirely on a computer.
ah, ok then.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on July 19, 2013, 05:46:13 PM
Uhm.  No.  No they don't.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=11786

Ummm yes, they do:
Lineage 2 private servers:
http://www.topgamesites.net/lineage2

Aion private servers:
http://topofgames.com/Aion/

I keep saying this and have posted these links before. I swear people at NCSoft are probably shaking their heads saying make a private server what is the problem with you guys? Seriously - just do a very simple google - Lineage 2 private servers - Aion private servers. You will find literally hundreds openly advertised.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on July 19, 2013, 06:02:11 PM
Ummm yes, they do:
Lineage 2 private servers:
http://www.topgamesites.net/lineage2

Aion private servers:
http://topofgames.com/Aion/

I keep saying this and have posted these links before. I swear people at NCSoft are probably shaking their heads saying make a private server what is the problem with you guys? Seriously - just do a very simple google - Lineage 2 private servers - Aion private servers. You will find literally hundreds openly advertised.

yeah also of note, there do seem to be City of heroes private servers listed on that site. Under city of heroes category, number 20, 21, 4, 25, 30, 36, and probably more. Well then, seems, according to that site, topofgames.com, sooooo... seems like there are many places that people looking for a private server can go to now already.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on July 19, 2013, 06:15:21 PM
OK...

#4 - 404 (not kidding)
#20 - more like a Cityville clone
#21 - Cityville clone (called "HAHGOTYA"; gofigure)
#25 - Yeah, really, don't click on that one. I'm serious. Porn.
#26 - Server not found
#30 - Isn't related. It's a Romanian photography site.
#31 - Cityville clone. Seriously with these?
#36 - dead link

It says there is a second page, but the first page only goes to #43. Frankly, if someone here has a server link that they've tried and can vouch for it, I'm not sure how willing I would be to try one of these.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on July 19, 2013, 06:27:52 PM
OK...

#4 - 404 (not kidding)
#20 - more like a Cityville clone
#21 - Cityville clone (called "HAHGOTYA"; gofigure)
#25 - Yeah, really, don't click on that one. I'm serious. Porn.
#26 - Server not found
#30 - Isn't related. It's a Romanian photography site.
#31 - Cityville clone. Seriously with these?
#36 - dead link

It says there is a second page, but the first page only goes to #43. Frankly, if someone here has a server link that they've tried and can vouch for it, I'm not sure how willing I would be to try one of these.

interesting.

I wonder how many of those type of links, that seem to be titled and categorized in not a clear and precise manner, exists for other "private servers".

Glad I didnt click on them, but now it doesnt seem like a very reputable site to look for private servers.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Absolute on July 19, 2013, 07:02:15 PM
Would someone actually get paid and be on the clock while reading a 32 page thread on this forum?

Is someone hired to actively look for private servers for CoH?

If there's a cease & desist letter, it would happen because someone unrelated to the corporation reported a private server to them. I can't imagine NCSoft going through everything on this forum to find it. If it's the case of someone reporting it, there's no way to stop it because online we can't filter through people. Even a secret list of contacts to send things to would be flawed. We've already had some bad apples here on the forums.

Just thought I'd throw it out there. I think we're safe to be honest. There was a C&D letter when the game was active, but nobody is looking now and even if there was a report, might not even lead to anything.

I'd take risking it (Although IMO it still isn't a risk) to speeding things up. I think we may be too secretive.


Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Captain Electric on July 19, 2013, 07:06:53 PM
You're a funny guy Iron Wolf.  ;D

Those "top sites", "top 200" sites and so on have been around for years, at least a decade. They're just link aggregation websites, and they're easily exploited. They aren't created by publishers, which is just common sense. Publishers don't make money when you're donating to your pal's server host. Also, in many if not most cases, it's up to users to report dead links. When that doesn't happen, they just pile up like corpses. Back when they were used for the first handful of MMORPG emulators, they were actually useful. I used a handful of them. But I don't know of any emulator besides UO that could have had hundreds of servers listed at any one time which actually turned out to be real servers and not dead links (or spam or harmful links). Nowadays there aren't even that many UO servers comparatively. For a long time, UO's emulator community actually set up their own "top site" which ran in a small client and allowed you to connect automatically using Razor, a standard launch program that works for almost any UO shard. The reason behind this was simple. The top sites had become bloated with dead and useless links, so the community built its own link list similar to a "top site", but link owners had to register a link, and then maintain their links or else they would expire and disappear.

I've seen you post about this (yes, time and time again), but I guess I just didn't think you sounded all that committed to the idea. To be honest, you still sound somewhere between serious if unresearching, and "having a laugh on us". I keep thinking there needs to be a winky emoticon after your posts. Or maybe you just figure it's no skin off your back if one of us gets hassled by NCSoft's lawyers, or worse. Or, maybe you're just telling us what you think is going on. Fair enough.

I'm not saying those servers aren't out there. I'm sure some or many are. But that's not all you're suggesting. The people who want to take the time and effort to bring a game back will have things to consider, including whether they think their approach is a calculated risk, a worthwhile risk, or just an unnecessary risk.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on July 19, 2013, 07:59:27 PM
I followed some of the links to actual server webpages to download the client.

Some are just gold farmers - especially the City of Heroes sites.

But Aion and Lineage 2 have private server easily joined. Do all of the links work? Likely not but there are plenty with little effort to be found. This is just one location, there were many more.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: SARobb on July 19, 2013, 08:11:06 PM
Would someone actually get paid and be on the clock while reading a 32 page thread on this forum?

Why not ... I do  8)

 :o
*alt-tabs as the boss walks by*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on July 19, 2013, 09:09:50 PM
#4 is forum.coxemu.net - ie a site closed six years ago after a C&D from NCSoft. CoXEmu eventually turned into what we now know as SEGS.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on July 19, 2013, 09:14:23 PM
interesting.

I wonder how many of those type of links, that seem to be titled and categorized in not a clear and precise manner, exists for other "private servers".

Glad I didn't click on them, but now it doesn't seem like a very reputable site to look for private servers.

Yeah, it's not something I would click on if I weren't on a tightly controlled computer. It is, however, exactly the type of place I like to hear that someone has gone to when they bring their machine in to be looked at. I have my most convincing sympathetic wince ready for when they say it, too.  :)

I didn't mean to look like I was picking your post apart, BTW. You actually did list the only ones that looked promising, though I suspect the porn one was actually a typo; the next one looked more promising, at first glance. I didn't check any of the other games listed in the sidebar, either, so there may actually be some "legit" links somewhere on that site. I'll dig into that a bit more, but probably not tonight. Tonight, I enter The Grid!  ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on July 19, 2013, 09:34:17 PM
(Speaking of which, did someone ever put out a corrected edition of the first Blue King pdf? In the copy that I have, one of the interior pages - where the team are fighting the Vahzilok to enter the building - is tacked onto the end; it breaks up the story. :/ )

Huh, I never noticed that (or if I did, I don't remember). All the comics from the website are available here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzbPxewaK5DgdTlFM0p6czRuVU0&usp=sharing No corrected version, alas.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on July 19, 2013, 09:50:45 PM
I downloaded the ones that NC$oft had on the official site shortly before the lights went out, and it appears to be a correct copy. If the one on http://www.cityofheroes.ca is not correct, someone can probably thumbnail me instructions on how to upload the one I have to the Google Drive folder above.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Thunder Glove on July 19, 2013, 09:52:49 PM
Out of desperation, I've looked for CoH private servers using sites like that one, including topofgames.com itself.

There aren't any.  All the "private servers" are, at best, just ads for other games.

"City of Heroes Server" isn't actually City of Heroes, it's "a free-to-play medieval strategy game set in Medieval Europe", and it just links to a different page for Rift private servers.

"CoH and CoV Private Server CVDarkness", "CoX professionals", and "PrivateCOH" all lead to a referral link to Gladiatus – Hero of Rome.

"Cyty of Galacty" just leads to someone's My Brute page (in Spanish, no less).

And those are the ones that actually lead to games.  Some don't even do that.

Most notably, "Team Cohvd" (claimed in its description to be the "first ever working CoH/CoV private server") just links to a shock site.

A lot of them, weirdly enough, are just links to the regular CoH home page.

The rest are either Inf-selling sites or aren't even pretending to be remotely connected to CoH at all.

topgamesites is the same.  Referral links to MyMiniCity, Inf-selling sites, and flat-out fake sites.  (I'm more reluctant to check out links on that site, becuase you can't see where they're going before you click on them)

I wish there were private servers out there.  I'd be playing them right now.  But there just aren't, only people taking advantage of anyone looking for a CoH/CoV private server.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on July 19, 2013, 09:59:16 PM
Most notably, "Team Cohvd" (claimed in its description to be the "first ever working CoH/CoV private server") just links to a shock site.

Thank Moss that link wasn't clickable. As shock sites go, that's one of the more terrible ones.  :o

I notice, in going to see what you meant, that the list in the sidebar includes some pretty interesting ones, most still active. This might be fun: I haven't given my AV/AS software a good workout, lately.  ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on July 19, 2013, 10:24:45 PM
Yeah, it's not something I would click on if I weren't on a tightly controlled computer. It is, however, exactly the type of place I like to hear that someone has gone to when they bring their machine in to be looked at. I have my most convincing sympathetic wince ready for when they say it, too.  :)

I didn't mean to look like I was picking your post apart, BTW. You actually did list the only ones that looked promising, though I suspect the porn one was actually a typo; the next one looked more promising, at first glance. I didn't check any of the other games listed in the sidebar, either, so there may actually be some "legit" links somewhere on that site. I'll dig into that a bit more, but probably not tonight. Tonight, I enter The Grid!  ;D

Nah I was hoping some brave soul tested out the links and reported the results. They looked suspect to me at first glance, the entire site did, but I figure I might be just acting too paranoid again and let someone do it that may not care.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Zombie Man on July 20, 2013, 02:02:16 AM
The rest are either Inf-selling sites...

How much does a billion INF now cost?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Absolute on July 20, 2013, 02:12:20 AM
Why not ... I do  8)

 :o
*alt-tabs as the boss walks by*

ahahahaha

Nice one
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on July 20, 2013, 02:33:29 AM
I don't go to sites like those on my home system but my work system is locked up tight with proxies and everything and no local admin or downloads possible, hell I used to go to blacksun back in the day from my work system. If you haven't heard of it - that was a gray hat site with all the hacking scripts and tools needed.

You could hack any NT or Windows 95/98 system using plugins from there.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on July 20, 2013, 02:35:04 AM
Yeah?

Here at my work, the gov kind of frown on visting those types of sites on their computers. Hell, they frown upon visiting this site on their computers.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on July 20, 2013, 03:35:35 PM
You could hack any NT or Windows 95/98 system using plugins from there.

I would plug in my W98 machine for you to take a crack at, but it's a laptop with no onboard ethernet port. I have a PCMCIA ethernet adapter, but it's 10base-T, which my router and switch both refuse to recognize.

*sigh* Technology marches on...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Graydar on July 20, 2013, 07:02:06 PM
Yeah?

Here at my work, the gov kind of frown on visting those types of sites on their computers. Hell, they frown upon visiting this site on their computers.

Vist this site (http://trollthensa.com/) and give them a scare.

Go onnnnnnn.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on July 20, 2013, 07:14:36 PM
Vist this site (http://trollthensa.com/) and give them a scare.

Go onnnnnnn.
lmao. I'd probably get fired if they seen that on my computer. lmao.

And as overreactive as the media and gov is sometimes, it probably would end up asa big news story and deployment before they realize what it actually was.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on July 24, 2013, 03:21:32 PM
I downloaded the ones that NC$oft had on the official site shortly before the lights went out, and it appears to be a correct copy. If the one on http://www.cityofheroes.ca is not correct, someone can probably thumbnail me instructions on how to upload the one I have to the Google Drive folder above.

The one on coh.ca was not correct. However, I have fixed it! I think. I moved the page that was out of place, and the correct issue should be in the google drive folder, as well as the original just in case.

Edit: I should note that the google drive in-browser preview appears to make the images pixelated or colorized oddly. The actual PDF looks as it should.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Risha on December 17, 2013, 01:06:01 AM
All right.  Every time I come over to Titan I definitely check this forum just in case I missed something illegal that I really want back. :)  I see no one has posted lately, too bad, so I will.  Yes, I would love a private server.  Hell, I would even love a downloadable game that I had to play alone, though that sure wouldn't be as much fun as spending time in the community.  I tried out Valiance Online and had a hard time visualizing how good it could be.  I funded CoT...but if COX ever manages to get a sneaky back door into it, I'm in.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Drauger9 on December 17, 2013, 02:34:57 AM
Quote
COX ever manages to get a sneaky back door into it, I'm in.

Same here, if I ever happen to get a PM with a link to an unknown download. I'd download and install after a virus scan just to see what it could possible be..... ;)

Until then it's Secret World, D3, Marvel Heroes and the three side projects going on here when they come out.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: saipaman on December 17, 2013, 04:17:07 AM
Mysterious downloads are why God created virtual machines.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: OzonePrime on December 17, 2013, 01:56:32 PM
Mysterious downloads are why God created virtual machines.
:)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on December 17, 2013, 05:47:12 PM
There's something called S.C.o.R.E. going on, and its thread spawned an interesting conversation about Copyright law: http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9346.0.html

Unfortunately, it was locked before I could ask: What does "SCORE" stand for?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on December 17, 2013, 06:25:59 PM
Unfortunately, it was locked before I could ask: What does "SCORE" stand for?

Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers

It started out as a joke comment, but it got unofficially adopted ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on December 17, 2013, 07:04:06 PM
Ah, I was thinking Secret City of Reverse Engineering, so... close enough, I guess?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Atlantea on December 17, 2013, 11:33:32 PM
Mysterious downloads are why God created virtual machines.

"Listen! Strange women lying in ponds distributing magical swords is no basis for a good game!"

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on December 18, 2013, 01:23:15 AM
Mysterious downloads are why God created virtual machines.

Not to mention better performance, application isolation, and OS testing without wrecking your gaming setup.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on December 18, 2013, 01:38:42 AM
So.  IN A WORLD... of private servers.

(Should some people eventually reverse engineer some kind of software that allows one to create private servers in order to play games using the COH freely distributed I24 Beta client software and distribute it throughout the online world -- either from the SCORE group or from some other even more secret effort that none of us know anything about)


I've been thinking about how the community could operate and play as a community... since there would be no common "world". 

It occurs to me that a desirable support product would be some kind of standard character storage record format -- and software -- that would allow one to down-port and up-port characters from a modified Reverse Engineered server (whether that server was actually emulating City of Heroes or some completely different game developed to use the I24 COH client software).   

If such a thing existed, then players who played scattered across different servers' games could still freely associate.  Even if you were mostly playing on a server named "Atlas Park 333", you could have your characters visit "Steel Canyon 420" which might be hosted in another nation or might even be a completely different version of the game you were playing.

It also occurs that if movement between private servers were trivial, then the private servers themselves could cooperate to form some kind of network, so that one server doesn't have to host all the zones that are available in the client.  Different people's servers could host compatible sub-sets of the game(s), maybe ten servers hosting the "Pocket D" environment, while 5 other servers had different versions of the "Independence Port" map, while others hosted an entirely new map that had become popular and been shared across the community.

If you created a character using ICON (or an equivalent reverse-engineered tool) you might be able to take that character and play them in the "Salot Landing" game.  In fact, with enough community development, it might eventually become possible to coordinate servers to make movement between games and servers as unremarkable as movement between zones of the old City of Heroes game...

But perhaps I've dashed wildly into fantasy here.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: saipaman on December 18, 2013, 03:55:54 AM
Not to mention better performance, application isolation, and OS testing without wrecking your gaming setup.

Buzz Killer!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on December 18, 2013, 06:28:29 AM
There is a lot of Jib Jab here ... i think the current conversation seems to be sorta off the point of a functioning private server ... i've been gone for some time and seems as if i have not missed much .

A functioning server where we can all hang out would be Ideal ... A single player test environment
would be great too ...

guess i just miss CoH/V very much  :'(
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: blacksly on December 18, 2013, 06:55:52 PM
It occurs to me that a desirable support product would be some kind of standard character storage record format -- and software -- that would allow one to down-port and up-port characters from a modified Reverse Engineered server (whether that server was actually emulating City of Heroes or some completely different game developed to use the I24 COH client software).   

One thing to note... in one UO shard where I coded, I wrote a magic system. This system involved memorizing spells from your spellbook rather than casting them from your spellbook. So your character would have a list of "spells in memory" as a characteristic (or as a statistic, whichever you prefer). When the character is saved, this list of spells would have to be saved with them. Now, this is a custom magic system... another shard would not have it, and therefore when the character data is presented to them, they have a large section of the data that is incomprehensible. With most coding styles, this would crash the load, and prevent the character from being loaded.

There are some work-arounds that would mitigate the situation (for example, you have to put the data's name, and the loaders for all of the custom servers look for a name that would tell it what to do with the upcoming section of data). You would still have the issue where a mage from another shard would not be able to cast any spells in this shard since he didn't have any spells memorized, but at least the statistics that are common across all of the shards (or servers) would still function. And it's assumed that if you actually got agreement about how to write a "accept anything" character saver/loader, you would also agree on standard values so that you don't have one server using unusually high values of HPs or Endurance, and messing things up when characters from that server are loaded elsewhere.

Basically, the point is this: the more variety and customizing you allow to each server, the less interoperability there will be, even to the point where (like the private UO shards) characters are not transferable in the slightest. But requiring interoperability might stifle creativity and custom ATs, powers, etc.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on December 19, 2013, 12:13:07 AM

Basically, the point is this: the more variety and customizing you allow to each server, the less interoperability there will be, even to the point where (like the private UO shards) characters are not transferable in the slightest. But requiring interoperability might stifle creativity and custom ATs, powers, etc.

Which is a choice you make if you abandon interoperability -- as you described it, your system couldn't possibly work with transferred characters anyway -- "a mage from another shard would not be able to cast any spells in this shard since he didn't have any spells memorized," -- so why would you worry about transferred characters? -- its not like an agreed standard record could hurt you.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on December 19, 2013, 02:21:16 AM
Buzz Killer!

oh I wouldn't that (unless you work for an anti virus company or a certain OS company).  I run such a setup on my laptop.  It's great being able to test that nifty new program that can screw up your system or play some really old dos game.  There's nothing quite like cloning your gaming vm, installing patches and have it blow up, and being able to kill the vm and restore the clone.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: blacksly on December 19, 2013, 06:42:21 PM
Which is a choice you make if you abandon interoperability -- as you described it, your system couldn't possibly work with transferred characters anyway -- "a mage from another shard would not be able to cast any spells in this shard since he didn't have any spells memorized," -- so why would you worry about transferred characters? -- its not like an agreed standard record could hurt you.

I didn't make the point clear enough. You see, the custom magic system WAS a draw to that particular shard. And almost every shard had their own custom systems, and did not want to be just like all of the others. The idea that we would be able to transfer characters from one server to another relies upon those who run servers to be willing to just run pretty much all-standard. But players want new stuff, and the admins running the servers will either be coders themselves or have coders willing to volunteer. So unless they're getting new stuff put out regularly by some kind of "CoH Underground Center", they will mostly want to write unique stuff. Because it's more fun working on your ideas than just making sure that you are one more working station in a large underground server network.

It's not just that customized servers are pretty much directly opposed to the idea of easy character transfer. It's that customized servers are what we will get if the code allows for customization (and I expect that it would even if you have to learn the language that it's compiled in), just because the people who will put up the money and effort to run the servers are probably going to be big enough geeks, and strongly enough interested, to do the work to put in their additions to the game. The kind of personality that is fine running a standard station without their input into how it runs, is likely not the kind that is going to go out and get the software, set up a server, run it and maintain it, handle player disputes, etc.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on December 19, 2013, 08:28:10 PM
I would imagine that most private CoH servers, should they exist, won't modify things like a spell-casting system. Perhaps they'll add new powersets, sure, but with any luck that won't be too hard to port from server to server. Sure, there may be a few that end up drastically changing things, but by and large, because most people will want to upload Sentinel files, all the servers will probably have a baseline common system. Even if parts of the Sentinel file, like Enhancements or inventory, don't carry over, the basics of costume & powersets kind of has to, right?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: blacksly on December 20, 2013, 04:57:14 PM
It depends. Say that a server makes no changes to the underlying character design, and just adds a new powerset named Jedi Mind Tricks. Then a character made on the server with standard powersets should have no problem in porting over to another server.

Now, say that a server decides to add in a new feature for characters named Weight, used to affect Knockback. When a character made on this server is loaded at another server, it will have a new variable that is in the middle of the character, and that could cause everything after that variable to fail to load. It also COULD load, if all of the saved items are given their name... a standard server would load a piece of data named Weight, that would not fit into anywhere in its standard character load, and that would be discarded, but the rest of the load could continue.

Basically, if the default serialization/deserialization of characters includes field names, then fields that don't exist on your server can just be discarded. You may have some missing data from a character, but other than that, it should load. But if the S/De-S is just done by order and number of fields, then you can't have any fields added or removed, and you can't port characters to/from any server that saves unique data for its characters.

I suppose we'll have to wait to see the implementation of the code. I'm hopeful that they considered this issue when writing it, but I'm worried that if they just tried to most directly reverse engineer the code, since there was no such need to worry about different versions of character data in CoH, it's possible that the code that they copied would not make provision for characters with slightly different systems.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tacitala on December 20, 2013, 06:09:12 PM
I suppose we'll have to wait to see the implementation of the code. I'm hopeful that they considered this issue when writing it, but I'm worried that if they just tried to most directly reverse engineer the code, since there was no such need to worry about different versions of character data in CoH, it's possible that the code that they copied would not make provision for characters with slightly different systems.

I have absolutely no technical skills what so ever but I'm going to guess, based on all of the references from past developers as to how tangled and piecemeal the code was at the end, that any attempts to add in something as complex as new character data would be incredibly difficult and take an extraordinary amount of time to test and implement.

Personally, I'll be delighted to get the game back as it was at closing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Twisted Toon on December 21, 2013, 12:59:19 AM
I have absolutely no technical skills what so ever but I'm going to guess, based on all of the references from past developers as to how tangled and piecemeal the code was at the end, that any attempts to add in something as complex as new character data would be incredibly difficult and take an extraordinary amount of time to test and implement.

Personally, I'll be delighted to get the game back as it was at closing.
I'm going to assume (I know, stupidity.) that the spaghetti code was server side and not client side. If that is truly the case, as long as the variable inputs/outputs server-side match the inputs/outputs client-side, the rest of it could be as clean or messy as the coder want. And, since they'll have to recode everything server-side, I'd guess they'd go for a more clean code.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Atlantea on December 21, 2013, 02:26:37 AM
I wonder if perhaps the reason you're not seeing a private server "out in the wild" is because - IF - and I do mean HUGE "IF" - there is one, that they've taken the lessons of the past to heart and gone deep "underground"?

Think about what happened to the attempts to set up private Tabula Rasa servers and how hard NCSoft stomped them flat.

I'd think any COH server group would have taken the hint and will NEVER announce themselves openly (Incidentally, I bet there's a few underground servers for Tabula Rasa too. But underground for the same reasons).

Mind you, it's odd that there's been no attempt that I've heard of by NCSoft at any "cease and desist" on even the emulator attempts. Maybe they really DON'T care.

Still - if there are any servers out there - they should STAY UNDERGROUND. At least until someone has figured out a way to release the code out "in the wild" in such a way that anyone can run it on a desktop or something. Propagate it such that nothing NCSoft can do will stop people from playing.

Then we can honestly thumb our collective noses at NCSoft and say, with all honesty -

"You can't stop the signal."
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: saipaman on December 21, 2013, 07:44:45 AM
I wonder if perhaps the reason you're not seeing a private server "out in the wild" is because - IF - and I do mean HUGE "IF" - there is one, that they've taken the lessons of the past to heart and gone deep "underground"?

So, you're suggesting the rest of us were judged unworthy by deep cover private server groups?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Atlantea on December 21, 2013, 12:51:40 PM
So, you're suggesting the rest of us were judged unworthy by deep cover private server groups?

Not at all. In my hypothetical scenario I was thinking more along the lines of "research groups". Which was why I was quoting the Firefly "Serenity" film tagline. In other words, I figure we'll see "open" private servers only when they can no longer be shutdown by a single "cease and desist" and if any DO exist then they are probably small to the point of having only a handful of players who are also the "hackers" or coders playing and testing the code and haven't figured out how to "release it into the wild" yet.

By which I mean - and this is completely hypothetical wild-ass guessing on my part - I would think you can't just run it off a "server farm" like the old game was. That's asking for trouble. Anything that exists "in the wild' has to work more like Team Fortress 2 servers. Something that can be set-up "On the fly" as it were. And any reverse coding taking place has to take that into account. Which is why if there is a "private server" out there, they'd have to be INCREDIBLY security paranoid that they don't attract attention. Which gets back to my idea of "small research group only" servers. 

That is - IF such a thing exists. It may be that I'm completely wrong and that the current research on the emulator and the current Icon is all we've got in the way of preserving the old game's functions. In fact it's more likely that I am wrong. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised at some point in the future though.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 23, 2013, 02:12:46 AM
What I'd like is the ability to run the game I spent £1000 on over the best part of ten years as a stand alone copy on my computer.

I have nothing to show for all those years of playing the game.

I'd like it to be like Unreal Tournament.  Play locally, on a local network or over the net, peer to peer would be good as well.  For me, it's a moral argument. 

Even if there wasn't the player base to support Coh (which is a contentious issue...) why not let us have a single player game...and/or one you could play over a local network.

I'm surprised there was reverse engineering of Rasa.  I didn't know that.  Given how popular Coh is/was then surely it's a matter of time before something similar is attempted with Coh?

From what I can see of Icon...or the 'client', we have the hardest part.  The 'free to play' backgrounds, map, npcs, mov, power fx, dev tools to use locally.  The spawn points are at least marked.

I'm guessing we are missing the code that procedurally spawns  mobs, handles combat and served mission content?  So you'd have to have a 'local' server to speak to the game client to play a solo version of the game?  Or emulated code?

I can only guess that the community prepared for the games closure...

Have other games been reverse engineered for Morgs?  How difficult a task is it?  (No small undertaking...I'd guess...)

Of course, there's doing it in a way that doesn't clash with I.P.  But the key ingredients are sitting on most user's hard drives.  Recreating all that artwork, zones, animations and powers would have been a formidable task.

I just wish NC Soft would have said good bye in a more graceful way and gave me something for all my years of loyalty.  e.g. a bit of server code to allow me to run the game and play alone.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on December 23, 2013, 04:41:58 AM
The most critical would be a way to use the mission builder in AE so a stand-alone could populate its world with custom missions -- I imagine those missions could be "shareable" by posting the created files online.  But I don't really know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gleech on December 23, 2013, 04:57:47 AM

Of course, there's doing it in a way that doesn't clash with I.P.  But the key ingredients are sitting on most user's hard drives.  Recreating all that artwork, zones, animations and powers would have been a formidable task.

This is why all fantasies of making a CoH Private server IP-free are pretty much out the window. Take how long it took the professional, paid developers to come up with all those art assets and all, and then multiply that by about 3. That's how long it would take us to completely re-make CoH with custom assets. Sure you could say "The community will help!", but that's what we all figured with SEGS, and look at it now: A team of 1, working on a source. The whole CoH community is there to help, but no one has the skills to do so. Leaving a project like this up to the community isn't going to help.

No matter what way you look at it, making a private server will involve "getting dirty". Though the state of CoH IS in purgatory, that doesn't make it any less against the rules to use this stuff.

Now am I saying we shouldn't do this? Crap, man, I'm saying I wish it was done a month ago on the 30th (Was REAAAAAALLY hoping for SCORE to release some nibble at progress on the anniversary of CoH's closing... :( )

Even just changing the assets of the game to not involve CoH's IP wouldn't be enough. You're still using their graphics, their models... Even just the likeness of the PS to the real game is a candidate for a lawsuit. Avoiding this isn't something quick and easy, and I'm doubting any actual possibility. I want CoH back as much as everyone else, but we have to think logically about this.


Still - if there are any servers out there - they should STAY UNDERGROUND. At least until someone has figured out a way to release the code out "in the wild" in such a way that anyone can run it on a desktop or something. Propagate it such that nothing NCSoft can do will stop people from playing.

I'm curious why they don't just distribute the source to people via PMs, and those people distribute it to their friends, and etc. Or, websites like Ragezone hold sources for Private servers of games still running (E.g. Maplestory). As far as I know they haven't had any issues with that (And I know I saw someone there asking around for a CoH PS).

Once the code runs through so many people, if someone gets caught and is forced to "trail it back" to the source, NCSoft would have to go through a lot of different people in order to get to the original source, and even then they couldn't prove anything unless they had access to the PM (Which could be deleted, couldn't it?).

My guess though is that NCSoft doesn't care a crap about CoH anymore. They're sitting on that egg so hard I think they forgot it. Assuming that they're sitting there behind their computers, waiting for the second that a PS launches so they can sue sounds a bit conspiracy theorist to me. I'm sure they have people put to doing a LOT more important things than stalking a (supposedly) dead game's community. If that doesn't convince you, then I'd like to see how many employees are currently still employed to do with anything involving "City of Heroes". Though, I could always be wrong and it could turn out horribly.

It depends. Say that a server makes no changes to the underlying character design, and just adds a new powerset named Jedi Mind Tricks. Then a character made on the server with standard powersets should have no problem in porting over to another server.
If the server is looking for the assets labeled "Jedi_Mind_Tricks" and it fails it cause an error. Thus if the player somehow managed to get into the game on a server not running this "Jedi Mind Tricks" set, they'd have no powerset (or a broken one). See I'd assume that it will be possible to add in new things like that, and if a server's code doesn't support or have any record of this said set, it won't be able to load it in.

If that discussion is/was about whether we'll be able to have a universal database of all our characters, I'd say "no". It's HIGHLY unlikely, due to the modifications each individual server can have. It's not impossible, but very highly unlikely.

Now for those of you afraid of CoH's community dying because of a lack of 1 unified server, lemme' answer with this:
What Titan Network can do is host one server. A huge server, with the whole community on it. Now obviously they wont be on all the time, but this could be the "official" server. SCORE could run it and everyone would play it. Why would everyone play it? Simple: Content. SCORE has the man power to create new content. Other servers would have to rig up the content in a patch-work way. Most likely it wouldn't be as official and clean as SCORE's code. Why play on a server with broken code stuck on the same 'update', when you can play on the "official" SCORE server hosted on everyone's favorite forum? That keeps the community generally centralized into one location. NOW: For those who want to run their own servers with friends (Like me), they get what they want, too! They can go and play their own server, and risk not being able to add new content (until they learn the language), or if they want to go in and do raids and stuff, they can go play on the SCORE server.

You're all forgetting this fact: Even if CoH came back as ONLY one server run by SCORE, with one server in that SCORE Server (e.g. Pinnacle, Virtue, Freedom), the community would be split. Think of how well Freedom and Virtue got along (If you don't remember: it wasn't very well. I played on Virtue a lot, and all I heard was bad things about Freedom). The community will be divided between PVPers, Casuals, RPers, etc... You honestly can't deny it. Sure, for awhile in the beginning it wont be like that, but once the communities start to be forced to collide, it'll get on everyone's nerves. What's the solution? Add different servers to the SCORE server (E.g. Pinnacle, Virtue, Freedom, etc)! Sounds good, right? Everyone's on one global server, and everyone can play together. But wait, you're dividing the game up. Now people on Virtue will be playing on virtue, people on Pinnacle will be playing on Pinnacle, and people on Freedom will be playing on Freedom.

Point is: No matter what you do, you'll find a split community to some degree. I feel like my incentive of "more content" is probably the best way to go... but what do I know? I'm biased towards my own opinion. :P

As for all of you saying you'd prefer to just have a single player experience and you hope for LAN or single player support: This actually can be all solved by distributing the server's source. Just run it over your LAN IP address and only you and others on your network can play. It takes the least amount of time to set up (I guess it really depends on the source, but usually it does).

Anyway that's my rant. Hope no one gets offended. I'm not trying to bash anyone, I'm really just stating the realism of all this. I do believe a private server is in the works, but I don't believe it'll be all we expect of it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: blacksly on December 23, 2013, 05:18:24 PM
Quote
Even just changing the assets of the game to not involve CoH's IP wouldn't be enough. You're still using their graphics, their models... Even just the likeness of the PS to the real game is a candidate for a lawsuit. Avoiding this isn't something quick and easy, and I'm doubting any actual possibility. I want CoH back as much as everyone else, but we have to think logically about this.

Let's consider the uses of the IP, though. The IP that would be protected, artwork and such, resides on the client's machine, that the player purchased legally from NCSoft. That we purchased the game intending to use it on their servers is irrelevant. I own several copies of the game, still have the disks, and have the freedom to install it on my machine whenever I want. There is nothing to connect it to, but I can certainly install the game, including all relevant artwork.

Now, the server side does not furnish up artwork or such. They just send to the client a packet that says "display image 0x512a". Therefore, as I understand, most of the server sides does not actually use or send any IP-protected information. So the issue whereby any server emulator is using IP owned by NCSoft seems like it's a non-issue if taken all the way in court (the real problem is the possibility that a nuisance lawsuit from NCSoft could just scuttle an emulator project even if there is no legal merit to their suit).

In the US it is legal to reverse-engineer both physical items and software, in order to provide replacement and add-on parts (or modules). Creating a server for the use of CoX clients, as long as the server emulator code copies the functionality but not the coding of the original server, and as long as it's not sending IP-protected information, is, as I understand, legal. 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gleech on December 23, 2013, 06:44:22 PM
I believe I understand what you're saying, but the problem is the likeness of the game in the first place. If you create a game that works 90% like CoH, they could sue for stealing even the likeness of the game. Probably doesn't seem legit, right? Well I can assure you people sue for more dumb things than that (Trust me, my dad is a lawyer and I hear about this stuff all the time). Even if the code is different, I'm sure they could find some loophole to try to sue. Remember: They do have a whole team of lawyers sitting on standby eager to find anything they can to sue about. And if it's not 90% like CoH? Then it's not CoH. It might as well be a new game. (Obviously not taking exact percentages, you get the idea)

Now I agree that it is technically possible to redo all the artwork and stuff.. but I don't know if you guys realize, in order to make it completely IP free, you'd have to remake all the 3D models, animations, clothing items, hairstyles, etc... Every piece of the character customization would have to be remade. That stuff was made under the artists hired by NCSoft, meaning NCSoft still owns those assets. It's not as simple as retexturing. You also have to keep in mind this is 8 years worth of textures, models, zones, etc. It took the devs even longer to develop them before the game was even made. Let's say, giving them grace, it took 2 years to make the content for the launch. Then it's 10 years worth of content we'd be remaking.

Think of making a fan character (take Sonic fan characters for instance if you're aware of them), you can re-texture them all you want, but it will still be the original character you're coloring over. Just because you give it a new paint-job doesn't make it any more original.
Example:
Spoiler for Hidden:
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=fc01.deviantart.net%2Ffs70%2Ff%2F2010%2F318%2F0%2Fb%2Fsonic_recolor_by_ilikecookies21-d32vvej.jpg)(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=magisterrex.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F09%2Fsonicimage.jpg)
Take, as said before, a Sonic fan character compared to SEGA's actual Sonic design. Is the picture on the left any more original just because it's using new colors? It's still the same Sonic underneath the paint job.

As would City of Heroes be. It'll still be the same City of Heroes underneath the re-texture. Now that's great for us players! But knowing NCSoft's elite team of lawyers I'm sure they could find a way to sue. Considering EA was able to sue Zynga for something similar as I'm talking about:
Quote
In August 2012, Electronic Arts (EA), via its Maxis division, put forth a lawsuit against Zynga, claiming that its Facebook game, The Ville was a ripoff of EA's own Facebook game, The Sims Social. The lawsuit challenges that The Ville not only copies the gameplay mechanics of The Sims Social, but also uses art and visual interface aspects that appear to be inspired by The Sims Social.
Now, CoH has closed down, but NCSoft still does own the rights to it. They could technically open the game up again. This means that despite the game not being public anymore, the rights are still there.

Also, if we do go down the road of re-doing the assets, I just want everyone to know it will literally take years to get our City back. By that time, CoT and the other PlanZ projects will be out and it might not even be worth it.

Oh also, they have all the evidence of us talking about this being a private server. If they wanted to they could dig it up and use it against us knowing the original intentions of the project.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on December 23, 2013, 09:44:34 PM
Gleech, likeness of the game?  Games cannot be copyrighted (as I understand it and I believe this is settled law), only IP content.  All the necessary IP content is available in the client software that was given away publicly for free.

So a server that helps the client software to use it's assets to play a game, be it just running the character creator like ICON or fighting mobs, would not violate any of NCSoft's rights.  Running the "Statesman task force" is likely another story, as I don't believe the mission content is client-side.  But putting mobs of characters on the streets of Paragon doesn't have to be more than sending codes to the client.

Of course they could sue anyone running a server -- you can sue anyone for anything.  The only protection is that it exposes you to counter-suit, and if you don't have a solid basis for action the court is likely to do nasty things to you.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gleech on December 24, 2013, 03:24:09 AM
If you don't believe me for suing for the likeness of the game re-read my above post. EA did it, NCSoft could do it. They didn't say Zynga stole art and assets, they said it was inspired by their game. It looked like their game. They sued on the charges of similar game mechanics, as well.

My point is not so much that the server will be sued, I'm saying it's impossible to avoid the potential. No matter what you do, NCSoft has the potential to sue. Working with private servers is never a clean business.

The whole point of me saying this is for those saying "just remake CoH's assets and rename stuff!". It's not as simple as that, and it wont destroy the potential of NCSoft suing someone over this. In fact, they could sue SEGS any minute now for their stuff I'm sure, but they don't. Why? Because I honestly don't think NCSoft cares anymore.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on December 24, 2013, 04:54:38 AM
ok so no private server yet... just checking..
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CoyoteSeven on December 24, 2013, 06:22:58 AM
Always remember the golden rule: The one with all the gold makes the rules.

NCSoft has more gold than we do. They can tell us what to do and force us to do it, with regards to City of Heroes.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on December 24, 2013, 07:35:35 AM
Always remember the golden rule: The one with all the gold makes the rules.

NCSoft has more gold than we do. They can tell us what to do and force us to do it, with regards to City of Heroes.
NCLimp can sit on a mountain of gold for all I care - and they can then proceed to kiss my ass.  We'll do what we want with CoH at this point - watching them try to play "whack-a-mole" with a thousand private servers will be the funniest thing I've seen in decades.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Drauger9 on December 24, 2013, 09:56:34 AM
Hopefully if anyone really is working on such a project. They'll take their time and make to were even if NCSoft wanted to do anything. They wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on, so hopefully it wouldn't seem worth it to them.

I honestly think NCSoft almost completely walked away from City of Heroes and will over look most things concerned with it. Though like one person here has continuasly caution. If anyone is working on such a project. Please take your time and do it right. Cover your own back sides in cause NCSoft is more protective of the City of Heroes IP then I foolishly believe.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shidan on December 24, 2013, 07:43:41 PM
Gleech I feel I must point out that you left out the part about how according to EA Zynga "poached three high-level execs from EA who had internal knowledge of The Sims Social for the specific goal of ripping it off."
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CoyoteSeven on December 24, 2013, 10:33:20 PM
NCLimp can sit on a mountain of gold for all I care - and they can then proceed to kiss my ass.  We'll do what we want with CoH at this point - watching them try to play "whack-a-mole" with a thousand private servers will be the funniest thing I've seen in decades.

I'd feel sorry for any particular mole they manage to whack, especially if they decide to make an example of him or her to the rest.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on December 25, 2013, 01:02:48 AM
I'd feel sorry for any particular mole they manage to whack, especially if they decide to make an example of him or her to the rest.
I work in IT.  Theoretically speaking, if I end up with one, I dare them to try to find it.  I can guarantee they'll spend way more time than they would want to just trying.  I'll take my chances - especially if the source code is released as well and I can change file names, checksums, signatures, etc.  They'll go nuts trying to tear the whole internet apart and never come close to stumbling across my copy.

And if they "make an example" of one of us, my response will be to give out lots more copies to lots more people!  Again, they can kiss my ass.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 02:22:59 AM
Gleech, likeness of the game?  Games cannot be copyrighted (as I understand it and I believe this is settled law), only IP content.  All the necessary IP content is available in the client software that was given away publicly for free.

So a server that helps the client software to use it's assets to play a game, be it just running the character creator like ICON or fighting mobs, would not violate any of NCSoft's rights.  Running the "Statesman task force" is likely another story, as I don't believe the mission content is client-side.  But putting mobs of characters on the streets of Paragon doesn't have to be more than sending codes to the client.

Of course they could sue anyone running a server -- you can sue anyone for anything.  The only protection is that it exposes you to counter-suit, and if you don't have a solid basis for action the court is likely to do nasty things to you.


Spot on.   Look at all the PAC Man and Space Invader clones.  The game industry is founded on clones.  You can't copyright an idea only your version of the IP.

They gave away the client.  All the key assets are in it.  Maps.  Npcs.  Mov files.  Lighting.  Mob spawn points.  Dev tool access.  Character creator.  I payed for this client x3 hard copies of the game.  (Yes...). And I payed near a thousand pound in subs.

As a consumer, I feel morally entitled to a version of the game I can run as a stand alone on my hard drive.  Law?  The law is an ass in a world where corporations are abusing copyright legacy rights and pushing the consumer around.  Morgs where your wallet is held to ransom and you're left with nothing at the end of it. 

The IP assets are on my hard drive because I bought them.  They then proceeded to give the client away for 'free.'

The computer industry is littered with reverse engineered projects.  The PC industries pervasive reach was built on it!  As such, you can only copyright your implementation of an idea.  Not the idea.  Ergo: reverse engineered code that procedurally activates mobs on the maps seems reasonable to me.  As long as you don't use the original code.  And you can't copyright servers.  All morgs use them.  Just...maybe your version of it.  So.  Don't use NC soft 's code.

All the server is doing is activating ip you bought or were given for free.  It's making calls to assets you have installed.  It's playing the middle man.  All you need is a piece of software you can install that allows you to run local, LAN or peer to peer.

If you have the AE mission creator..?

You don't need the mission IP or TFs.  The community can create their own missions.  And a procedural call will bring the streets to life.  All the markers are there in the dev mode.

If such a reverse engineered server emulator went viral...how do you stop it..?

It's not like we'd be profiting from it or using their code or ip in the emulated server.  Only the ip assets we have bought or been given for local use as a minimum.

I think that's fair.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 02:32:44 AM
And if the game was unprofitable then why prosecute..?  Sure, they could.  But it's another publicity nightmare for a tenacious community who feel moral outrage and the 1st real test of a community who aren't going quietly.  Publishing is your copyright.  It's their ip.  But it's now just an old game.  We wouldn't be distributing their ip.

Only using our local client ip they gave us.  But none of their ip in distribution....or in reverse engineering local usage.

That doesn't stop them being an ass about it.  But I don't think they have a case.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 02:35:09 AM
If you have the Ae activated at the local level you could play missions you make peer to peer.  I'd class that fair use.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 02:36:00 AM
As they say, "do not go gently into the night..."

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 02:41:06 AM
I work in IT.  Theoretically speaking, if I end up with one, I dare them to try to find it.  I can guarantee they'll spend way more time than they would want to just trying.  I'll take my chances - especially if the source code is released as well and I can change file names, checksums, signatures, etc.  They'll go nuts trying to tear the whole internet apart and never come close to stumbling across my copy.

And if they "make an example" of one of us, my response will be to give out lots more copies to lots more people!  Again, they can kiss my ass.

*nods.  Nice to see someone get passionate about it.

If it is released privately and goes viral....how do they stop that..?  If I have a program that allows me to play the game I payed for at the local level...I don't see the problem.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 02:47:56 AM
I have the right to store the ip I paid for...but not the right to play it..?

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 03:53:57 AM
http://tags.library.upenn.edu/tag/MMORPG+reverse_engineering

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 04:09:34 AM
I don't always have time to post, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis I do read everything in this and related threads. So I'll summarize and cover a few things at once.

  • I don't care if NCSoft knows about Icon. This is a public board, and I fully expect them to know about it if they're paying even the slightest bit of attention. That's fine -- it uses assets that everybody already has -- assets that they abandoned on everybody's computer after being freely available for download to ANYONE for years. Legally it should be in the clear. The source code is even provided so they can verify that it doesn't use any copyrighted IP other than mine.

    It's also a good litmus test to see how they react. If they want to make a deal out of it, it will result in nothing but bad press for them and not really impact the program's availability much since it's already out there. If they are foolish enough to try to pursue real legal action beyond idle threats, I have faith that there are enough law-savvy people in this community to find a way to make them regret it. Best case scenario: by way of a judgement that sets precedent unfavorable to them in what is currently a fuzzy area.

  • There will be an Icon 1.8 at some point. I haven't done much active development on it due to other things on my plate, but I have a list of features I want to try to implement. Probably nothing as 'knock-your-socks-off' as previous versions, but more refinements and nice features.

  • Icon is not, and never will be, a full game. There are other projects working on that independently. The purpose of Icon is first to be the "offline character creator" that so many have clamored for, but also to offer tools that are useful for content development, whether it be for demo editors, screenshots, machinima, or even testing client mods locally.

    That said, Icon is intended to be a call to the community to not give up. There are a lot of very smart people working on various reverse engineering projects, and Icon is here to show a small bit of what we're capable of, so that people realize that there will be private servers at some point. Now many of those servers will very likely be, well... private, but that's a discussion for a different thread (and there are several on these boards, so please discuss them there rather than in the Icon thread).

  • A corollary to the previous, Icon is not directly related to any server-based projects (which includes single-player servers that run on the same PC as the client). It uses a completely different method that, as I discussed when I first started working on it, isn't really useful in that context. In other words, time spent working on Icon is time spent not working on what everybody really wants.

    It also didn't take 6 months to get people running around Atlas Park -- that took about a week from initial conception of the idea to implementation. While Icon does benefit from other reverse engineering work done in the meantime, playing around with the client doesn't contribute much back to them.

  • To all the people who have sent me PMs, I haven't had a chance to get back to most of them, but rest assured that I have read them. The thanks are very much appreciated, and it's great to see people's day brightened just a little bit. For people wanting to help, I'll point again at the SEGS project which is in need of developers. Not providing a link as I don't want them on the wrong end of the spotlight, but they're not too hard to find if you're serious about it.


Authoritative post.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 25, 2013, 04:20:50 AM
Quote from: TonyV on July 12, 2013, 06:22:05 am
Icon is a separate effort from the efforts to restore a complete game, but I think it was an important demonstration that Codewalker is intimately familiar with how the client works.  From that, I'm hoping that people imply that when we say that we have the APIs mapped out that it used to communicate with the server, while Icon isn't definitive proof of that statement, we're not just making stuff up.

Not that I'm accusing you of accusing us of making stuff up, but others have implied that recreating the server is beyond our capability.  While Icon isn't definitive proof that we'll be able to, I'm hoping that it's evidence of what we are capable of, and by extension, that it will give people who may be thinking "I don't know, it's been almost seven and a half months and they still haven't finished bringing the game back yet" a bit more faith in our efforts.  Aside from the fun of playing around with it and giving people access to commands that only developers had access to, it's intended to be a morale booster and a cool toy to play around with until we have something even cooler to show off.

Room for optimism in those words...

Nearly 13 months and counting.  I can only presume that APIs are mapped out and proof of concept procedural mob generation on a map with combat as proof of pudding...

In the time leading up to closure of coh I can only presume some clever people looked at server code protocols to be confident of replicating that functionality....  Unless someone put the code on a pen drive... :o when clearing their desks...

Have other mmos been reverse engineered and if so how long did it take?  And we're these mmos as popular as coh..?

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Styrj on December 25, 2013, 03:06:25 PM
Azrael, I played CoX since Issue 2 beta (my son actually got me into this game) and haven't looked back.  Can't find anything out there to equal or better CoX's gameplay or community.  I regularly follow this board and the S.E.G.S. board (nemerle).  I don't have any programming skills, but I do know how to play test.  I was playing around with Icon last night, jumping from map to map when I thought, man, it would be really cool to be able to fight mobs and such.

Needless to say, for me, I will back any effort to get my game back.  NCStupid can go to Hell as far as I am concerned.  My last $15 monthly CoX sub was the last red cent they will ever get from me.

Please excuse my ramblings.  :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gleech on December 25, 2013, 05:03:13 PM
NCLimp can sit on a mountain of gold for all I care - and they can then proceed to kiss my ---.  We'll do what we want with CoH at this point - watching them try to play "whack-a-mole" with a thousand private servers will be the funniest thing I've seen in decades.
Pretty much this is what I'm sayin'. xP Glad someone agrees.
Gleech I feel I must point out that you left out the part about how according to EA Zynga "poached three high-level execs from EA who had internal knowledge of The Sims Social for the specific goal of ripping it off."

But you're also forgetting the charges that were issued. Technically NCSoft could say we had the specific goal of "ripping them off". Any second we play CoH free is a dollar lost.
I have the right to store the ip I paid for...but not the right to play it..?

Azrael.
Okay honestly: You paid for the services, not the rights to the game. You pay to play CoH because you're paying for the services done to play the game (creation, upkeep, etc). MMO subs are not stocks, you don't own a part of the MMO.

You don't need the mission IP or TFs.  The community can create their own missions.  And a procedural call will bring the streets to life.  All the markers are there in the dev mode.

Because people are going to wanna play someone's custom made TF over the real TFs? AE can only work so well without proper updates. CoH devs didn't give us the full Dev tools, I think you're forgetting that. They gave us a taste of it. A small portion. It's not good enough to just use that to remake all the missions. Plus, as said about art assets, it's literally 10+ years of content you plan to remake. It's going to take a long time to remake all that.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shidan on December 25, 2013, 08:03:15 PM
My point is they used internal knowledge of The Sims Social not that they were "Ripping it off". We have no such knowledge, to my knowledge anyway.

And actually any second we play CoH free is the exact same amount of money they were already getting for it since they closed it down.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gleech on December 25, 2013, 09:57:09 PM
And actually any second we play CoH free is the exact same amount of money they were already getting for it since they closed it down.
True, but can you reason with them? No. Try asking them nicely not to sue. Look how that worked out with getting CoH back. They hold the rights to CoH and that's final. We have no rights to the game. No matter how much you paid previously, they have the final say-so in the game. They provided and ended a service legally. The players taking and remaking their service means they aren't profiting from their original work.

People will sue over the stupidest things, anyway. I heard of lawsuits where a criminal broke into a house, tripped, got injured, sued the people, and won. Doesn't make any sense, but it happened. NCSoft could do so much more.

The debate is whether NCSoft could sue or not. And yes, they could, over anything we do to their game. They still hold the rights to it, whether the game is online or not.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on December 26, 2013, 01:42:15 AM

The debate is whether NCSoft could sue or not. And yes, they could, over anything we do to their game. They still hold the rights to it, whether the game is online or not.

Gleech, of course they could sue.  They could sue YOU for making the above comment.  They have exactly as much legal basis to sue you for making the above comment as they would have to sue someone making software that activated the COX client software that they distributed.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Drauger9 on December 26, 2013, 02:50:36 AM
Hmm.. seems this has moved to somewhat of a debate. LOL!

I agree with Gleech, if someone simply wrote a program where you could play City of Heroes as is. Then they could very well sue. City of Heroes is still their game no matter how much money you pumped into it. If it wasn't this would be a non-issue and we'd all still be playing right now, I'd assume. I think the question really should be, how far could someone go before they actually would sue?

Me personally I couldn't afford to find out. LOL! As has been said before. If anyone is working on a super secret project. Let's hope they do it wisely to were if NCSoft  did want to sue. They would decide it wasn't worth the time, money or resources to go forward with a law suit.

We'll have to wait and see I guess.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on December 26, 2013, 04:24:45 AM
Hmm.. seems this has moved to somewhat of a debate. LOL!

I agree with Gleech, if someone simply wrote a program where you could play City of Heroes as is. Then they could very well sue. City of Heroes is still their game no matter how much money you pumped into it. If it wasn't this would be a non-issue and we'd all still be playing right now, I'd assume. I think the question really should be, how far could someone go before they actually would sue?

Me personally I couldn't afford to find out. LOL! As has been said before. If anyone is working on a super secret project. Let's hope they do it wisely to were if NCSoft  did want to sue. They would decide it wasn't worth the time, money or resources to go forward with a law suit.




Indeed.

Sometimes the easiest way with anything is simply knowing where the lines are. The easiest way to get caught up is simply being caught unprepared. An unprepared thing or person can lose, in this case a lawsuit, simply because they didn't know where the lines are and since they didn't know where the lines are, cant even build a good defense.

In court, morally right, charity, what is good or bad PR, what gamers want, what corporations want, usually all go out the window and come down to what the law says.

But a prepared person know where the lines are and can even avoid usually even getting so much of a letter. But being prepared do not involve simply ignoring or pretending the lines and risks don't exist even on what is good for the public or moral grounds. The lines lies where the law lies.
Even simple distribution may back fire because don't forget all the copyright stuff, which is a large part of the rights of the copyright holder. Distribution. Now if one made something that don't use any copyright/trademarks/IP stuff and simply say, just make use of what is already on the user computer, then they should be ok. Nothing wrong with distributing programs to make use of other programs on the computer. But distributing the total package that is protected under copyright/ip/trademark, then that may be different story and simply because they cant shut down every single place where it distributed doesn't mean in the court that the judge will simply go, "Oh well, I guess that make it ok." usually it looks fishy and looks like intent was to do just that and may as well be who ever they grab ahold of that distributed whether original or not, liable for the distribution that they did.  Not to mention add more ammo that many game makers are trying to push through with stricter IP protection and distribution controls regardless if one company wins or lose the lawsuit.

But remember the key is to simply know where the lines are. The most successful people that get away with stuff always know what they can get away with and that usually entails knowing the law, even if they plan on breaking it. Those that usually get caught in nonsense and lose when they should have won a cake walk, usually are the ones that downplay the risk, or think judgment will automatically go in their favor and or no one will do anything.  Because anything released to the public on the internet usually don't stay secret for long. Someone usually squeals, either accidentally or get carried away bragging about how they got away with it. It all boils down to how it's done. Done properly there is nothing to worry about. Done side ways, there might be some worry but at least know what can happen and be ready and take precautions. AKA don't make it easy for them. Make them argue among themselves whether it's worth it or not or do they have a case or not. Don't make it a dead simple choice for them that they do have a case. And it's not only the copyright holder that is the worry. Sometimes thing happen by simply someone reporting to the Copyright office and the ball end up getting the ball rolling there and yes, NCSOFT do have stuff registered with the US copyright office. And last thing the copyright office needs or want is to too like they condone copyright infringement. But even if and after it get released and it's done quietly and discreetly or balancing the line, they may not bother. But there is a department that strictly deal with internet stuff. While they don't monitor every single thing, they do look at stuff that comes across their desk. 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CoyoteSeven on December 26, 2013, 05:58:15 AM
This is what happens when gamers and coders start arguing about legal matters. Just a wee bit outside their focus, neh? What we really need are some lawyers to set the record straight.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shidan on December 26, 2013, 05:59:36 AM
I'm going to quote TonyV here since it is relevant.

I've gotta say, I'm not particularly worried about this.  The practical situation is that I don't think that NCsoft cares one bit about any extracurricular activity going on around the game.  I'm pretty sure that if they've given this any thought at all (and I'm pretty sure they haven't), they realize that without selling the IP to another company, they have thoroughly poisoned the goodwill of any market for anything having to do with City of Heroes while it's in their possession.  I'm sure they still list it as an asset on company documents and whatnot, but it's not like anything we do can devalue that property.  They devalued it themselves to practically $0 on August 31, 2012.

If NCsoft wanted to pursue anything, the worst they'd do is send a C&D letter.  And I kinda doubt they'd do that, because as soon as they did, I would be yelling from the mountaintops, and the gaming and tech press tends to cover that kind of thing pretty thoroughly.  If they just went totally off their rockers and decide to mount a full-out lawsuit against anyone here--which would be about five miles past unprecedented --they would have to prove some sort of damages suffered because of our actions.  Given that they deliberately chose to shut down the game and everything we've done has been in reaction to that decision, they'd really have bupkiss to go after us on.  Worse, if by some weird chance they lost, it would set a legal precedent that is extremely unfavorable to the gaming industry as a whole.  In other words, they have everything to lose and absolutely nothing to gain by doing so.

So I'm really, really, really not worried about this.  The discussion in this thread is filed squarely in my bin of philosophical mental exercises of no practical significance whatsoever.

Also, regarding the legal cases cited above, the thing is, these precise circumstances have never been tested legally.  If you dig long enough and hard enough, you can find plenty cases to support either side of the "is this legal?" argument.  And that's precisely what the lawyers would do if it came to that.  They'd each go off and find cases that support their arguments, air those arguments and cases out in court, and a judge and/or jury would suss out which most closely align to this situation.  And then the other side would appeal it, and then the other other side would appeal it, and ten or fifteen years down the road, someone would win and people playing games in 2025 would now have new rules to play by.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on December 26, 2013, 10:56:46 PM
This is what happens when gamers and coders start arguing about legal matters. Just a wee bit outside their focus, neh? What we really need are some lawyers to set the record straight.
yeah been talking to some lawyers, experts in these matters.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Taceus Jiwede on December 27, 2013, 07:15:34 PM
NCSoft has nothing to lose by sending a C&D.  If I were a betting man, I would put a decent amount of money on them sending a C&D letter to people who hosting servers(at least popular ones).  Why wouldn't they?  They are removing posts from their Facebook page about anything CoH related.  They got fed up with us for sending emails to accounts we weren't suppose to have.  Why not stick to us one more time.  They PROBABLY won't sue.  But why not send a C&D?  They will probably due it out of the sheer principal of the matter.  Simply to show us and everyone else you can't just use their likeness without them putting up a struggle.  That't not a NCSoft thing, its a business thing.  You gotta show people you aren't gonna let them use your stuff without your permission.  Plus history repeats it self and they haven't let any of their other games private servers stay up.  What makes us so special?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: blacksly on December 27, 2013, 07:49:47 PM
True enough. They may not want the legal precedents set by going to court over the legality of a server emulator and losing, but they won't really have anything to lose by sending a C&D letter to whoever hosts a server. I worry more that they may send C&D letters to the ISPs of anyone hosting an emulator server, and the ISPs won't have any incentive to take that to court if they have to.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CoyoteSeven on December 27, 2013, 09:35:32 PM
If NCSoft sent a C&D to the host's ISP, the ISP would likely just shut down that server immediately and issue a warning. Or if it's a home connection, just send them a warning or risk losing their service. No lawyers need to be involved in that. Not unless the host wants to escalate things. Could be worse if they sent a DMCA takedown notice. I don't know if anyone ever did that for a server emulator.

My point is that they have the money and power to make life quite miserable for some of us, and if they can't target all of us as a group then they will focus on individuals. That's what the RIAA did. It's what Apple did. I hope you're ready to give whatever support those individuals might need. Not everyone here can afford to be a maverick.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Noyjitat on December 28, 2013, 12:48:05 AM
True story, I was just thinking about running my friday night msr. But then I was like F*CK!

I really don't care about the legal bs. The minute someone releases code to get this game playable again I'll be spreading it to every torrent site I can find. F*ck ncsoft and F*ck the EULA. I'm mad as hell not being able to play, losing my internet social groups and friends and losing the best virtual world to ever exist. I'll do whatever it takes to share the game with the world once it's available.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: GamingGlen on December 28, 2013, 04:28:23 AM

I really don't care about the legal bs. The minute someone releases code to get this game playable again I'll be spreading it to every torrent site I can find.

I wouldn't be so loud, but I would host a site for someone else if NCSoft is getting frisky about it.  Although, I probably would have to update my machine, or get a new one, or both (about time anyway, still running VISTA on a 5+ year old machine, although graphics card is newer).

Lose my ISP?  HAH!  I got 3 others knocking my door down to sign up with.

I do have one misgivings about playing again, but would in a heartbeat.  Will it make Icon un-operatable?   I really like the options in Icon to set up scenes, especially for the comic-book-like stories I write.  But I suppose Icon will still work, just not online (egads what a mess that would be.  People spawning NPCs or monsters all over the place.  Not that I would do that, but add a few NPCs where needed, like a bartender at an empty bar... although they need a wipe-bar-with-towel emote, or pour beer from tap into glass emote :D)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: saipaman on December 28, 2013, 05:26:32 AM
Let's just get a server in Cyprus.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: FatherXmas on December 28, 2013, 06:54:23 PM
Let's just get a server in Cyprus.


... and let's call it Colossus.

(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=static.tvtropes.org%2Fpmwiki%2Fpub%2Fimages%2Fcolossus_logo_7854.png)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on December 29, 2013, 07:37:39 PM
I'd feel sorry for any particular mole they manage to whack, especially if they decide to make an example of him or her to the rest.

Is the US going to extradite us to Korea for the proceedings? Doubt it.

Still curious as to what asset I have that would make a lawsuit worth pursuing for them. I don't think they can seize my house.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on December 29, 2013, 08:17:38 PM
The contract, if one exists, was made in the US so while NCSoft might want Korean courts to preside over the case, not likely they can.  What action they'd take would be against whomever chooses to host the server part.  Little point in going after the players.  no money.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on December 29, 2013, 08:37:08 PM
Is the US going to extradite us to Korea for the proceedings? Doubt it.

Still curious as to what asset I have that would make a lawsuit worth pursuing for them. I don't think they can seize my house.

They would file the suit in the US, by means of their US division. Or in your home country, either if they have an office there or with their international legal department if it's a country that has copyright treaties with either Korea or the US (i.e. almost all of them). Pretty much your only way to dodge it jurisdictionally would be if you lived in a third-world country that never signed or doesn't care about international trade agreements.

That's how multinational companies operate. NCSoft has been involved in numerous lawsuits in the US, both as plaintiff and as defendant, over a variety of matters.

The point of such a lawsuit wouldn't be to seize an asset, or even necessarily to clearly win the case. It would be to drain your meager savings and your will to fight with an expensive, protracted legal battle until you give up. Such a suit is not filed with the intent to win, it's solely a scare tactic to make an example of someone and make others less willing to take that risk.

It's a despicable fact of how the modern legal system works, and one that is all too commonly exploited by large corporations who can afford to spend a little on their lawyers in order to maintain firm control of the things they want to. The good news is that the explosion of social networking is making it easier to expose these tactics for what they are, as well as collectively mount credible defenses against them.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: HEATSTROKE on December 31, 2013, 05:22:42 AM
 The question is will we ever see a private server? I wonder maybe five years from now..
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on December 31, 2013, 05:27:50 AM
Nearly 13 months and counting.  I can only presume that APIs are mapped out and proof of concept procedural mob generation on a map with combat as proof of pudding...

In the time leading up to closure of coh I can only presume some clever people looked at server code protocols to be confident of replicating that functionality....  Unless someone put the code on a pen drive... :o when clearing their desks...

Have other mmos been reverse engineered and if so how long did it take?  And we're these mmos as popular as coh..?

Azrael.

I won't lie, recreating the server is taking way longer than I was hoping it would, just to have something to show for our efforts.  There are actually two separate but related efforts going on right now, and the folks who have been working on this project have been devoting most of their time to the second one.  I really can't talk about that one, and likely won't for a long, long time.  But I will say that it's not all just wasted effort.  The work that has been done to date is directly relevant to rewriting the game, doing stuff like editing client-side files that will be required to run against a new server, since some of the APIs depend on server-side code that we can't literally recreate to work exactly the same from scratch.

I also know I've been quiet this month, but that's mostly because I had my birthday, started work on a new job, and then the holidays (including the most extended vacation out of town that I've gone on in a long time) all squeezed into the space of one month.  But it really is still being worked on.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on December 31, 2013, 06:00:37 AM
NCSoft has nothing to lose by sending a C&D.  If I were a betting man, I would put a decent amount of money on them sending a C&D letter to people who hosting servers(at least popular ones).  Why wouldn't they?

True enough. They may not want the legal precedents set by going to court over the legality of a server emulator and losing, but they won't really have anything to lose by sending a C&D letter to whoever hosts a server.

You're assuming that anyone is a position to send a C&D would even notice.  From what I've heard, NCsoft's U.S. presence is mainly just a skeleton crew of puppets who take and carry out orders from the corporate HQ in Seoul.  I'm almost certain that the people in Seoul are willfully ignorant of what's going on with City of Heroes.  If I were a betting man, I'd wager that they are actually actively tuning us out, and even if someone in actual authority got an email saying, "Hey, there's a private server here," they'd hit delete before reading it, just like they've probably done with every other "Hey, the City of Heroes players are [whatever]..." email.

Honestly, there is one guy who I might have been worried about, the guy I dealt with once before regarding some legalities, and he left the company over a year ago.  Hell, I don't even know if they even have legal counsel in the U.S. any more.  If you're interested, you can probably apply for the job (http://tbe.taleo.net/CH05/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=NCSOFT&cws=1&rid=1465), although from the location, it sounds like you'd be representing Carbine, not NCsoft corporate.

My point is that they have the money and power to make life quite miserable for some of us, and if they can't target all of us as a group then they will focus on individuals. That's what the RIAA did. It's what Apple did. I hope you're ready to give whatever support those individuals might need. Not everyone here can afford to be a maverick.

But there are two HUGE differences between NCsoft and the RIAA and Apple: The RIAA and Apple have billions of dollars at their disposal, and more relevantly, the RIAA and Apple went after people who were impacting products on which they are still profiting handsomely.  You have to understand that even if NCsoft came after me with every legal gun they have and blew me out of the water with some out-of-this-world multi-million dollar judgment against me, I would immediately declare bankruptcy and start my financial life over.  Yeah, it would suck being poor as dirt for a few years while I worked to restore my footing, and yeah, they could temporarily make my life miserable, but really, it's not that bad and eventually, things would be okay again.  It wouldn't affect any non-me people at all, and they'd be paying out the wazoo to go after anyone else.

On the other hand, if they lost, then it would set a legal precedent by which game server emulators could actually be ruled legal.  And while I'm not rich and probably don't have the legal muscle that NCsoft does, I'm not exactly poor either and would use every cent I could lay my hands on to get the best legal counsel I could buy to see that such a precedent would be set.  If that actually happened--if NCsoft lost their case--it wouldn't just be NCsoft that would be screwed, but a huge chunk of the gaming industry as a whole.  I'd be surprised if other gaming publishers didn't step in on my behalf and do whatever they can to keep NCsoft from suing me.  Especially since NCsoft is an MMO company (that is, not gaming in general; they don't have any FPSes or single-player RPGs or any other genre to their name), if they lost, it would basically spell financial ruin for them and likely be a bomb exploding in a lot of other powerful industry players.

I cannot tell you how unlikely I think that NCsoft would be willing to risk such a thing, especially given that the property they'd be suing over is one that they themselves killed off and that, for practical purposes, is worthless right now.  Even if a thousand private servers were set up and active, they still get to claim that it's worth $[whatever] on their taxes, which is all that it's good for right now.  Yes, if it makes their radar all the way over in Seoul, they might send a C&D to have a private server shut down.  I really kind of doubt that they'd do that.  But for them to actually go so far as to try and sue someone?  Yeah, I cannot imagine a universe in which that could possibly happen.  They would have absolutely nothing to gain from doing so, and they'd be risking their entire business model (and lots of other companys') if they lost.  That's why I keep saying that I'm really, really, really not worried about this contingency.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on December 31, 2013, 06:12:38 AM
I've said it before - at about 1:40 on the following video, it adequately expresses my fear of NCLimp "retaliation" against us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqDdrT2-bH4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqDdrT2-bH4)

I'm so scared!   ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Auroxis on December 31, 2013, 02:17:14 PM
TonyV, that post made me tear up a little.

Your dedication is truly inspirational, I'll be watching this one closely.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Heroette on December 31, 2013, 03:12:21 PM
So, how long is a "long, long time"?  It's all relative.  I can wait "a long, long time" for City of Heroes to come back.  But, I am not getting any younger and I hope I can fly once again in the skies of Paragon City.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Atlantea on December 31, 2013, 04:59:11 PM
Ed Gruberman: "Yeah.  No disrespect or nothing, but like how long is this going to take?"
 
TonyV: "The resurrection of City of Heroes is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon."
 
Ed: "So like, what, an hour or so?"
 
TonyV: "No, no.  We have not even begun upon the path.  Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience."
 
Ed: "Yeah, yeah, patience.  How long will that take?"
 
TonyV: "Time has no meaning.  To a true student, a year is as a day."
 
Ed: "A year?!  I wanna go flying right now!  I got the cape!"

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on December 31, 2013, 07:17:40 PM
I won't lie, recreating the server is taking way longer than I was hoping it would, just to have something to show for our efforts.  There are actually two separate but related efforts going on right now, and the folks who have been working on this project have been devoting most of their time to the second one.  I really can't talk about that one, and likely won't for a long, long time.  But I will say that it's not all just wasted effort.  The work that has been done to date is directly relevant to rewriting the game, doing stuff like editing client-side files that will be required to run against a new server, since some of the APIs depend on server-side code that we can't literally recreate to work exactly the same from scratch.

I also know I've been quiet this month, but that's mostly because I had my birthday, started work on a new job, and then the holidays (including the most extended vacation out of town that I've gone on in a long time) all squeezed into the space of one month.  But it really is still being worked on.

Thank you, Tony.

An intriguing reply.  One that hints not only at reverse engineering the server and, therefore to some degree, game client functionality...but perhaps a further project that allows something even more significant ergo it's secret nature.  Possibility for tools that help expand the game maybe eg with mods, texture,map and even mission creation tools.  Even the possibility to lay the foundation for a graphical update to the engine itself.  A defacto Coh 2 maybe..?  Or 1.5... ;). But I speculate.

As for the timing..?  If it's taking longer than thought ( no surprise considering even Matt Miller said it was an archaic code beast...) then we can speculate that at least an alpha or beta or even the whole server functionality was expected by now but no surprises that even at 13 months it still has a way to go.  I'd guess at something being ready to show to some degree by next November.  Or 'when it's done it's done.' ;)  But, it's a ten year old game at the end of the day.  It's no longer cutting edge tech...but it's still not a trivial matter either.

A message of hope I glean from Tony's reply.  I'll wish him a happy birthday and a happy New Year for being a true Titan for the Coh community.  I'll extend those wishes to the rest of you on these boards and to the Code Warrior for the awesome Icon - a heaven sent gift.

Keep the faith.

Azrael.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on December 31, 2013, 08:33:06 PM
Ed Gruberman: "Yeah.  No disrespect or nothing, but like how long is this going to take?"
 
TonyV: "The resurrection of City of Heroes is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon."
 
Ed: "So like, what, an hour or so?"
 
TonyV: "No, no.  We have not even begun upon the path.  Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience."
 
Ed: "Yeah, yeah, patience.  How long will that take?"
 
TonyV: "Time has no meaning.  To a true student, a year is as a day."
 
Ed: "A year?!  I wanna go flying right now!  I got the cape!"

Let's hope Tony doesn't wear boots.   :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: MWRuger on December 31, 2013, 10:44:35 PM
I can wait. I will wait. But I appreciate the update.

I can handle the wait, the silence just kills me.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 01, 2014, 12:17:26 AM
If they're REALLY trying to attempt to recreate the ENTIRE server-side game... Good Lord!  That is an insane crapload of function and content.  Praetoria???  Ouroborous level adjustment missions??? Exemplar and Sidekicking function???

I had envisioned a much more modest server tool that would recreate most of the power functions, NPC functions, and would allow some straightforward mission generation -- maybe a few steps beyond Valience pre-alpha :)

Thanks for all that is being done -- and Tony thanks for the update.  Sorry to hear it isn't "sooner than you think" anymore but I'm sure the guys doing the work know the best course.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Optimus Dex on January 01, 2014, 03:40:28 AM
Just the thought of the COH being back is hearting.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Mouse-Man on January 01, 2014, 05:15:21 AM
At this point, I'd be ecstatic with street mobs and a functioning radio...

I have no issue with street sweeping to 50.

Seriously, keep fightin' the fight... even unreleased the effort is appreciated.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tahquitz on January 01, 2014, 07:41:41 AM
Read TonyV's reply to the discussion over the last 13 months.  Fair to say that the discussion is over concerning the "if" part of things.

If I can get my hands on it when it's out, I'll give it a go.  The only thing I wish would be in SEGS is a persistent chat channel where those currently connected can come on and talk at the minimum... the non-working game elements bugs me, but the ability to meet, share costumes, have contests, and just chatting with folks was a fair portion of the time spent in-game for me.  If we get that back and costumes (even if it's a "at your own risk" feature where costumes are not saved on the server and chosen on every login) as people work on getting other systems up, speaking for myself at least it would be the most bloated and beloved IRC client that I can conceive of, and that would be plenty.  (I know doing that is a trap, as soon as that works, others would clamor for more so the temptation to not deliver that and instead wait until enough is available for people to chat AND do a bit more is fairly strong.) 

If I can't participate (not from legality, but in the short term my computers are having major issues that I'm too poor to fix at this particular moment), I'll follow what happens on the boards as best I can anyway.

---

Bonus points to Atlantea (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6673.msg136779.html#msg136779) for the Taek-Won-Leap sermon.  Much appreciated!  ;D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Drauger9 on January 01, 2014, 07:48:57 AM
Happy B-day Tony and thanks for the reply.

As far as the super secret stuff... better late than never. LOL! (I haven't sleeped well the past few days, swing shifts sucks:P)

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: FatherXmas on January 01, 2014, 08:44:46 AM
Ed Gruberman: "Yeah.  No disrespect or nothing, but like how long is this going to take?"
 
TonyV: "The resurrection of City of Heroes is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon."
 
Ed: "So like, what, an hour or so?"
 
TonyV: "No, no.  We have not even begun upon the path.  Ed Gruberman, you must learn patience."
 
Ed: "Yeah, yeah, patience.  How long will that take?"
 
TonyV: "Time has no meaning.  To a true student, a year is as a day."
 
Ed: "A year?!  I wanna go flying right now!  I got the cape!"

:)  +1
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Captain Electric on January 01, 2014, 11:31:19 AM
Happy birthday Tony, and a happy new year to all. :)

I don't agree with all of Tony's points but I agree with the most important ones. I think the likelihood of a C&D is actually extremely strong; that is about the extent of my disagreement. But I think there is a buffer here--time itself. NCSoft as a company has changed over the years. By the time a community server leaves its closed alpha environment behind, NCSoft will have changed yet more. We can all hope that the change is advantageous for our cause.

I remember during the early days of the Earth and Beyond alpha, there was some talk within EA of making a sequel to Earth and Beyond (but just for the consoles, those slimy scalawags). During that time there were hits from EA on the community forums that were set up in anticipation of the community server. I remember that being a pretty scary topic. By that time we had adopted a "Say nice things about EA or don't say things about EA at all" policy, in light of individuals who probably would have been willing to flush the entire community server down the toilet if it meant one chance to troll/grief an EA executive. I like to think that policy had SOMETHING to do with never getting a C&D. (And thankfully the sequel never materialized either, but there had been a team for it, and a teaser trailer was even made.)

Earth and Beyond wasn't my first experience with a resurrected MMO, but I like to compare it to City of Heroes for a few reasons. Story arcs and contacts are central to progression, classes and power selections are similar to archetypes, and customization is at the heart of the game. It took the Earth and Beyond player-run server eight years to get to what it now calls its own "Live" stage. If I recall correctly, it took three or four years for the server to get to an open beta stage that was stable for hundreds of concurrent players and which had a lot of missions and other content. If CraZyboy is still reading around here maybe he can correct or verify. I know that the last few years of the beta were extremely feature complete, and I thought it was funny because my beta characters on the community server were six years old by the end of beta, which is longer than the game lasted under EA. :P

I think a game like City of Heroes is going to take years to rez. Three or four years minimum just to get to bare-bones alpha tests; I'd be more conservative but I know this community had/has some Tony Stark-level geniuses in it. Those alpha tests are going to be closed, mind you, so unless you hang around and stay involved, I think it will be years later before you hear anything solid. But that's not the only reason to keep hanging around. The people working on any kind of server are just people, not machines. I guarantee you they will work on it harder the more they think you care about their efforts.

Several years is a long time to pine for a video game, but that's why I've always said it's better to use these forums as a springboard for organizing gaming groups or teams for projects, talking about movies and comics, posting stupid funnies, not being a stranger. This forum isn't supposed to be a non-stop depressing funeral for City of Heroes. I've always believed this community was something special and that's coming from a guy who played his first MMO in 1997 (and many since). This is one of the best gaming communities that I've ever been a part of, right up there with Earth and Beyond and THQ-Relic's community. You don't throw something like that away just because a game shut down. That is incredibly wasteful. Don't do it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 01, 2014, 01:56:36 PM
Thanks, Cap!  Your account of the "Earth and Beyond" experience is especially appreciated for the perspective. 
It and ICON give me hope that the city will again return to full life. 

Next year in Paragon!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on January 01, 2014, 03:24:57 PM
[EDIT: Merging another set of unnecessary multi-posts. Further multi-posts will be deleted instead of merged. ~Agge]

At this point, I'd be ecstatic with street mobs and a functioning radio...

I have no issue with street sweeping to 50.

Seriously, keep fightin' the fight... even unreleased the effort is appreciated.

I know what you mean.  I used to love street hunting in Bricks and Steel and Talos inbetween missions.  I'd probably take that as an interim.  But it seems like the 'skunk project' is aiming a bit higher...

Azrael.

-------------

Cap provided an interesting insight into the battle to preserve a much loved game.  It will take some patience.  But this battle seems personal.  It's too good a game to sink without a trace.

Thanks for that, Cap.

Azrael.

-------------

We've already waited one year.  So another couple is fine to get to a beta stage.

That kind of puts a planets in alignment situation with the other community projects such as Titan and H&V...

...which will all emerge at the same time..?

It will be like a golden age of Hero Morgs.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: CoyoteSeven on January 02, 2014, 02:09:00 AM
But there are two HUGE differences between NCsoft and the RIAA and Apple: The RIAA and Apple have billions of dollars at their disposal, and more relevantly, the RIAA and Apple went after people who were impacting products on which they are still profiting handsomely.  You have to understand that even if NCsoft came after me with every legal gun they have and blew me out of the water with some out-of-this-world multi-million dollar judgment against me, I would immediately declare bankruptcy and start my financial life over.  Yeah, it would suck being poor as dirt for a few years while I worked to restore my footing, and yeah, they could temporarily make my life miserable, but really, it's not that bad and eventually, things would be okay again.  It wouldn't affect any non-me people at all, and they'd be paying out the wazoo to go after anyone else.

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm quite grateful that you're willing to take their aggro and tank for us! And if it came to that then I would want to support you in any way I could. I'm just afraid of what might happen if they pick some other target instead. Like someone with a family to support. Just because their mom or dad logged into a private server or hosted one for their friends or something. NCSoft is smart; they might decide to go for the softest targets first.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on January 04, 2014, 07:06:05 PM
So, how long is a "long, long time"?  It's all relative.  I can wait "a long, long time" for City of Heroes to come back.  But, I am not getting any younger and I hope I can fly once again in the skies of Paragon City.

My plan: When City of Titans comes out, I will heavily invest my time in that. I will rebuild what I had in Cox, in that milieu as best I can; it will become my new online home.

When a CoX private server [that I am invited to join in....*hoping*] manifests, I will go there too, and will be there as long as it remains operative. I don't forget my roots. But I honestly think we are going to see CoT BEFORE we see a CoX private server, because that is a lot of work with some very janky code.

So, we will get our wings and capes back.... just probably elsewhere first. Meanwhile when the whim strikes me, there is Icon. Although it makes me tear up every time I log in, I still go there.

Just because.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on January 04, 2014, 07:08:56 PM
At this point, I'd be ecstatic with street mobs and a functioning radio...

I have no issue with street sweeping to 50.

I would log in every day, just to be able to fight mobs on the street and collect location badges. Seriously. I really don't have to be able to run the Magisterium trial from day 1.

I am willing for things to develop as they go, start with some little stuff and then update from there. But I know nothing about how all this works, maybe its easier to present a fait accompli right from the start.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 04, 2014, 10:17:02 PM
.... But I honestly think we are going to see CoT BEFORE we see a CoX private server, because that is a lot of work with some very janky code.

If that's an optimistic view of COT, then I very sincerely hope you're right.  But last I heard they don't have an approach to MMO software except to build their own...  their chosen engine doesn't include a developed MMO.   And first thing they're getting the character creator going.  Which makes me think MMO development will be after (I'd be happy to learn I was wrong).

That sounds like a potential 6-year time sink to me.  MMO development has defeated professional shops before this.

Oh also, why does the jankyness of the code matter if they're reverse-engineering the functions?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tahquitz on January 05, 2014, 01:47:37 AM
Those alpha tests are going to be closed, mind you, so unless you hang around and stay involved, I think it will be years later before you hear anything solid.

Still an optimist, sir. 

As disjointed as we've become in the last year, when the time comes to ask folks to give it a spin, there may be 8 forum readers that day (people still check in but at varying times, dates and through RL issues.)  If you're not asked to be in any betas, or the public release whizzes by as you learn of it months later, don't be hurt over it. 

Now let's see in X months, X years, if I can take my own advice.  ???
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tahquitz on January 05, 2014, 01:52:42 AM
If that's an optimistic view of COT, then I very sincerely hope you're right.  But last I heard they don't have an approach to MMO software except to build their own...  their chosen engine doesn't include a developed MMO.   And first thing they're getting the character creator going.  Which makes me think MMO development will be after (I'd be happy to learn I was wrong).

That sounds like a potential 6-year time sink to me.  MMO development has defeated professional shops before this.

Oh also, why does the jankyness of the code matter if they're reverse-engineering the functions?

From what I've heard from a developer at a past Meet and Greet, portions of City of Heroes code makes home audio cabling spaghetti knots in a hoarder's living room look like works of art.  (His words, not mine.  Unf., I can't remember who said it exactly.  I want to say Jay Doherty, but I was drunk at the time.  :-[)

Treating the client as a black box (input goes in, magic comes out that is up to you to figure out) isn't going to be terribly efficient in replicating the server, especially when the server-client relationship means that the client is expecting you to feed it magic instead of the other way around.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: malonkey1 on January 05, 2014, 05:37:22 PM
Treating the client as a black box (input goes in, magic comes out that is up to you to figure out) isn't going to be terribly efficient in replicating the server, especially when the server-client relationship means that the client is expecting you to feed it magic instead of the other way around.

Are you saying...We should treat it like a gray box?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: The Fifth Horseman on January 05, 2014, 10:15:53 PM
No such animal. it's either a white box - ie known functionality - or a black box: stuff comes in, MAGIC happens, different stuff comes out. If you know parts of it but not everything, it's a collection of boxes and black box itself as far as overall functioning goes.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: malonkey1 on January 05, 2014, 10:59:55 PM
No such animal. it's either a white box - ie known functionality - or a black box: stuff comes in, MAGIC happens, different stuff comes out. If you know parts of it but not everything, it's a collection of boxes and black box itself as far as overall functioning goes.

I was being facetious.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on January 05, 2014, 11:15:49 PM
If that's an optimistic view of COT, then I very sincerely hope you're right.  But last I heard they don't have an approach to MMO software except to build their own...  their chosen engine doesn't include a developed MMO.   And first thing they're getting the character creator going.  Which makes me think MMO development will be after (I'd be happy to learn I was wrong).

That sounds like a potential 6-year time sink to me.  MMO development has defeated professional shops before this.

Oh also, why does the jankyness of the code matter if they're reverse-engineering the functions?

Allow me to clarify; it was indeed an optimistic view of CoT, which I am looking forward to seeing in a most extreme fashion. And I would think it would almost be easier to build from the ground up, than try to replicate that knot of old cables in some hoarder's living room, as someone else aptly put it.

Where do you get six years from? My understanding - someone please correct me if wrong - was that their CC was slated for 2014, game launch in 2015. Even with delays - and I expect a few - that's not exactly six years.

MMOs have defeated professionals before this. But in this case, there's one extra factor: this isn't some project people are "interested" in because they were hired to work on it. These are people who got thrown out of their online home, just like you and I did. They want their home back. This is no humdrum "job" for them, they go to prepare a place for not only themselves, but for us.

Perhaps they will fail. Stranger things have happened. But until they DO, I will continue hoping and wishing them success and hoping for miracles, until proven otherwise. [And I will still get on that emulator, because I am nostalgic too.]
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 06, 2014, 12:10:17 AM

Where do you get six years from? My understanding - someone please correct me if wrong - was that their CC was slated for 2014, game launch in 2015. Even with delays - and I expect a few - that's not exactly six years.

MMOs have defeated professionals before this. But in this case, there's one extra factor: this isn't some project people are "interested" in because they were hired to work on it. These are people who got thrown out of their online home, just like you and I did. They want their home back. This is no humdrum "job" for them, they go to prepare a place for not only themselves, but for us.

Perhaps they will fail. Stranger things have happened. But until they DO, I will continue hoping and wishing them success and hoping for miracles, until proven otherwise. [And I will still get on that emulator, because I am nostalgic too.]

Well, as I understand it, 6 years is roughly what it's taken the folks now working on Valience to get their home-grown MMO software working (and they posted a marvelous description of the development hell that that took) and while COT game launch is scheduled for 2015, I don't understand how they plan to hit that if they don't have a solid decision on the main component that's about 1/3rd as difficult as an actual game engine to develop.   I understand they're still considering purchasing an independent package instead -- which would mean integration and more cost than planned.

And while this is no humdrum job for them, it also isn't full-time employment.

As I say, I sincerely hope there's something I'm not seeing (and I am backing them with money as I am Valience and as I would H&V) but I have higher hopes for SCORE than any of the others (though I already have 8 alts in two user ids on Valience's pre-alpha)


   
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on January 06, 2014, 12:31:32 AM
Valiance has been in development for six years? This is the first I have heard of it.

What is the size of that project compared to CoT? As in, how many people are working on it? I have never seen a Kickstarter for Valiance. How are they funding that project? These are really rhetorical questions; my main point being, that the size of the project is going to directly impact the release date. For instance 50 people are going to produce more, faster than 10 people. And budget matters a lot. What tools do they have? There's just a lot of variables here rather than a flat "MMOs take at least six years to create, across the board."
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 06, 2014, 12:50:11 AM
Valiance has been in development for six years? This is the first I have heard of it.

What is the size of that project compared to CoT? As in, how many people are working on it? I have never seen a Kickstarter for Valiance. How are they funding that project? These are really rhetorical questions; my main point being, that the size of the project is going to directly impact the release date. For instance 50 people are going to produce more, faster than 10 people. And budget matters a lot. What tools do they have? There's just a lot of variables here rather than a flat "MMOs take at least six years to create, across the board."

You seem to have misread my "That sounds like a potential 6-year time sink to me. " as "MMO's take at least 6 years to create across the board".  My point was that I fear COT is going to hit an awful reality in 2015 when they discover just what all can go wrong with MMO development working with a game engine.  Like I say, hope I'm wrong.

Valience is a new project but it is a re-purposed re-development of an older fantasy MMORPG that was about 75% complete.  It uses a house-developed MMO engine that the development group is using for several projects, none of which have yet been released.  The group has been developing that MMO for a number of years. The total organization is smaller than the COT effort, the Valience team is MUCH smaller and they are also not full-timers on their projects (multiple game groups working independently on shared architecture and resources).  But because it was a mostly developed game that was re-purposed, they were faster out with a (very, very, limited) playable environment.

Valience doesn't use kickstarter, but will accept donations which can be found on their web page.  Unlike H&V which is unwilling to take anybody's money at this point.  I consider my Valience donation pay-for-play as I'm happy to have anything that lets me thump a bad guy.

Oh, just wanted to add "For instance 50 people are going to produce more, faster than 10 people" -- I really hope that that's true, but coordinating 50 people to be even AS productive as 10 is often not possible in my experience of software development (granted, that's in Fortune 500 environments... but still)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: General Idiot on January 06, 2014, 04:19:48 AM
their chosen engine doesn't include a developed MMO.

Last I heard, they were using the Unreal engine right? Quite a few MMOs run on that. Most notably one of the two remaining superhero MMOs - DCUO runs on it. Marvel Heroes does too, although that's more a Diablo game with MMO elements than a full on MMO. Several other large MMOs do as well, most notably TERA and NCSoft's own Blade & Soul. And Lineage II runs on an earlier version.

The list of games of all shapes and sizes that run on Unreal is actually pretty staggering when you see it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: mixedemotions on January 06, 2014, 04:21:23 AM
 CoT, I can't wait to see the hard work restore our home. I for one am personally grateful for all the effort. However if a private server happens to pop up I wouldn't mind getting a invite  ;D

Every once in a while I manage to keep my mind off of CoX for a short amount of time. I manage to live peacefully, but it never lasts for very long... The memories I have of the game still seem fresh in my head. I can't wait to step back into my home away from home again.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 06, 2014, 05:28:31 AM
Last I heard, they were using the Unreal engine right? Quite a few MMOs run on that. Most notably one of the two remaining superhero MMOs - DCUO runs on it. Marvel Heroes does too, although that's more a Diablo game with MMO elements than a full on MMO. Several other large MMOs do as well, most notably TERA and NCSoft's own Blade & Soul. And Lineage II runs on an earlier version.

The list of games of all shapes and sizes that run on Unreal is actually pretty staggering when you see it.

As I understand it (please, someone more knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong) -- while lots of games run using the Unreal game engine, they also use MMO software to actually run the game.  Unreal doesn't come with MMO capability -- you need to build it or buy one.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Aggelakis on January 06, 2014, 05:43:28 AM
As I understand it (please, someone more knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong) -- while lots of games run using the Unreal game engine, they also use MMO software to actually run the game.  Unreal doesn't come with MMO capability -- you need to build it or buy one.
Err. Uhh. The Unreal engine scales to MMO-capability by itself. For the really most basic explanation, the game engine is the base of the game. What the game looks like, how it interacts, etc. That doesn't matter whether it's MMO or not. You hook into it with a single player game or a multiplayer or a MMO multiplayer. The functions and such.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ironwolf on January 06, 2014, 12:15:38 PM
This might help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

Unreal Engine 4 details: http://www.unrealengine.com/unreal_engine_4/
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 06, 2014, 01:27:05 PM
Err. Uhh. The Unreal engine scales to MMO-capability by itself. For the really most basic explanation, the game engine is the base of the game. What the game looks like, how it interacts, etc. That doesn't matter whether it's MMO or not. You hook into it with a single player game or a multiplayer or a MMO multiplayer. The functions and such.

So now I am confused.  Why were people saying during the kickstarter that Unreal didn't come with MMO capability built in?  Why were the COT people saying that while they were currently planning to build their own MMO software, they might purchase it and integrate with the Unreal game rendering software as other games did?  This is not, by any means, my field of software development.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on January 06, 2014, 02:32:07 PM
Err. Uhh. The Unreal engine scales to MMO-capability by itself.

I don't know if anything has changed with UE4, but the last time I worked with the Unreal engine, it didn't by far.

Unreal is designed as a first-person shooter engine and its built-in networking code is based around that. It's designed for low-latency medium-bandwidth links to support twitch gaming. It has a hard player cap that was originally 16 but I think increased to 64 in UE2 or 3 (the stuff I used it for never came close to that). The out of the box server will let you load statelessly connect several players together on a single map. If you want more than one map, you have to run multiple servers and there's no built in method to persist data across them or control who connects to which one.

AFAIK it doesn't have any kind of seamless transfer support that people have come to expect in a modern MMO. So you're looking at frequent loading screens / waiting for connection messages when moving between areas. UE3 added "Seamless Travel", but that's for a local game or a co-op server where the server itself loads a new map because everyone on it is in the loading zone and moving the same direction.

There's a couple of methods to use it for an MMO instead. You can either use the built-in networking code and write / use your own stuff on the back end to handle character state persistence and moving them between maps. That's what DCUO does IIRC. It's decent for games that need fast reaction to things, but if your MMO isn't twitch based then you're wasting a lot of bandwidth (which adds up fast in the datacenter with thousands of people connected).

The other option is to use a completely custom server backend, eschew the built-in networking code altogether, and replace it with your own. In that case, Unreal would think that it's a single player game running locally, but your own code plugged in to it is creating actors that seem to be computer controlled, but are really being driven by a connection to your custom MMO back-end. With that setup, you have no limits on the number of players in the area beyond what your own code and the client PC's graphics can handle. You *might* be able to leverage the Seamless map loading support in this setup, but it would be tricky to get right.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: FatherXmas on January 06, 2014, 06:59:52 PM
Well DCUO, Tera and B&S all use the UE3 as their graphics engine as well as several others.  So unless each keep reinventing MMO support in house, UE3 may now incorporate some rudimentary support now.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Captain Electric on January 07, 2014, 05:20:31 AM
Still an optimist, sir. 

As disjointed as we've become in the last year, when the time comes to ask folks to give it a spin, there may be 8 forum readers that day (people still check in but at varying times, dates and through RL issues.)  If you're not asked to be in any betas, or the public release whizzes by as you learn of it months later, don't be hurt over it. 

Now let's see in X months, X years, if I can take my own advice.  ???

Just keep coming around and you'll be one of those eight hehe.

Personally I expect there to still be way more than eight around here though. :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Drauger9 on January 07, 2014, 07:16:10 PM
Quote
Still an optimist, sir. 

As disjointed as we've become in the last year, when the time comes to ask folks to give it a spin, there may be 8 forum readers that day (people still check in but at varying times, dates and through RL issues.)  If you're not asked to be in any betas, or the public release whizzes by as you learn of it months later, don't be hurt over it. 

Now let's see in X months, X years, if I can take my own advice.

Maybe it's the optimist in myself but for me personally. I got this feeling in my gut and that's the reason I started coming back around. I've been checking the forums everyday for alittle over a month. Before then I was just a lurker. LOL!

I check this forum everyday and I check NCSoft's homepage everyday. So I'll just have to wait and see if this gut feeling pays off.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on January 07, 2014, 11:05:05 PM
Codewalker's right. While it is possible to build an MMO with Unreal as other MMO's have proven, there's no native support for MMO style server functions, so you'd basically have to build up most of that yourself. Especially since, as Codewalker already pointed out, the serer limit is hard capped at 64 players in the base code, and doesn't support multiple mapservers running simultaneously for different maps.

Heck, if you do a few quick searches on Epic's forums in the UDK section, you'll quickly see that most of the more experieced members of that community actually seem to discourage using Unreal to build an MMO, especially for small scale(i.e. Indie/non-profit) development teams because it's rather impractical. Granted, their discouragement is more based on the quantity of content that would need to be made, but the lack of pre-existing MMO server support is often cited as well.

These things can be fixed of course, but it's essentially building an entire system from scratch, so it's not really saving any time development wise.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 08, 2014, 12:59:48 AM
Hence my lack of optimism on COT hitting a 2015 release schedule.  And my suspicion that S.C.O.R.E. will release before them. 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Beltor on January 08, 2014, 03:05:46 AM
I haven't posted in a 'long' time but I've check this forum almost daily since the shutdown. I and likely many others like me would be willing testers.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: General Idiot on January 08, 2014, 05:26:23 AM
As I recall, the free version of UE3 is limited to 64 players tops. If you pay for a license, you can go higher. Certainly high enough to accommodate say, 100 players in a zone. Which was CoH's limit.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Lycantropus on January 08, 2014, 06:47:14 AM
Just keep coming around and you'll be one of those eight hehe.

Personally I expect there to still be way more than eight around here though. :)
Especially if you count the lurkers that check in regularly, but only post from time to time, when they think it's important.

;)

Lyc~ the lurking werewolf
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: malonkey1 on January 08, 2014, 05:00:57 PM
Especially if you count the lurkers that check in regularly, but only post from time to time, when they think it's important.

;)

Lyc~ the lurking werewolf

Lurkers? There are no lurkers here...!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Captain Electric on January 08, 2014, 08:21:37 PM
No one expects the Paragon Inquisition!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: GamingGlen on January 08, 2014, 08:36:17 PM
Especially if you count the lurkers that check in regularly, but only post from time to time, when they think it's important.

;)

Lyc~ the lurking werewolf

huh?  something important was said?   ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Triplash on January 08, 2014, 10:18:57 PM
Lyc~ the lurking werewolf

Hey wait, does that make you Lurkantropus? ???

And I guess lately I've been more of a Triplurk, myself. Hmm.


...Ahh well, it's all good! We still stop by and that's what counts! :D

*throws a snowball at Captain Elurktric, then hides behind a tree*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Captain Electric on January 09, 2014, 07:03:49 AM
*Cap elurktricutes Triplurk with his elurktriclurky!*

And it's slotted with lurk modification NEENER NEENER NEENER.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on January 10, 2014, 11:24:24 PM
It's worth pointing out that this thread alone has been read almost 55,000 times!

That's a great deal of demand for supposed 'dead' game.

That private server can't come soon enough.  But it's clearly not something that was ever going to be knocked out in a year.

It's like replicating the function of the brain.  The game client needs a/the 'brain' to function.

That wasn't clear to me previously.  Now that it is clear and 'I get it' I understand the size of the task.  Not impossible with clever coders.

But it isn't easy either. :/

But given time...and brains...there's hope. :)

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on January 11, 2014, 03:23:16 AM
You do realize that those 55,000 hits, assuming they are all humans, could translate into $825,000/month.  That's 55,000 x the $15/month many of us paid to play before free to play came to coh.  That 55,000 would translate into 9.9 million per year.  My guess is that 55,000 is just the tip of the iceberg for the number of people willing to play.  A proper ad campaign (something NCSoft never did) could multiply that several times.  I realize that some of those hits are (search engine) robots, webcrawlers, or other programs but no one knows for certain how much any site is crawled like that.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on January 11, 2014, 05:01:25 AM
You do realize that those 55,000 hits, assuming they are all humans, could translate into $825,000/month.  That's 55,000 x the $15/month many of us paid to play before free to play came to coh.  That 55,000 would translate into 9.9 million per year.  My guess is that 55,000 is just the tip of the iceberg for the number of people willing to play.  A proper ad campaign (something NCSoft never did) could multiply that several times.

Lady Vamp.  I never understood why NC Soft bought the game and barely advertised it.  If it had half the exposure WoW had got I'm sure the numbers you mention as an example would have been doubled or trebled or even more. 

We're talking about a game bringing in about a million a month!

Why didn't NC Soft just consolidate the servers, trim the Paragon team to just maintaining the servers and get the last patch out and see how the game went?  With just server maintenence surely NC Soft would have been raking in 'free money?'

I could have coped with less 'issues' per year or none at all.  Look at Champions Online.  It's been in a holding position, development wise for a long time.

It's worth nothing to NC Soft now.  Just give it to a small community of developers.  Make it an open source gift to the community.

Yeesh.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on January 11, 2014, 05:31:37 AM
It's worth nothing to NC Soft now.  Just give it to a small community of developers.  Make it an open source gift to the community.
Never.  Not in a billion years.  Just like their reasons for closing it are Top Secret, so too are their reasons for never selling it.  I stopped expecting anything approaching rational behavior from them on Aug 31st, 2012.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on January 11, 2014, 05:59:11 AM
You do realize that those 55,000 hits, assuming they are all humans, could translate into $825,000/month.  That's 55,000 x the $15/month many of us paid to play before free to play came to coh.  That 55,000 would translate into 9.9 million per year.  My guess is that 55,000 is just the tip of the iceberg for the number of people willing to play.  A proper ad campaign (something NCSoft never did) could multiply that several times.  I realize that some of those hits are (search engine) robots, webcrawlers, or other programs but no one knows for certain how much any site is crawled like that.

Keep in mind that those 55,000 views of this thread could also be as simple as 15 or so people constantly checking the thread for updates about 10 times a day every day because they either have nothing better to do or are just that desperate for some good news.(15 people checking 10 times a day for a full year or 365 days comes out to 54,750 views, and that's assuming they only check it ten times a day...)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Captain Electric on January 11, 2014, 06:11:04 AM
I check it about once per minute.

I want to be here THE MOMENT something happens.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on January 11, 2014, 03:05:27 PM
I check it about once per minute.

I want to be here THE MOMENT something happens.

That's probably half the views, right there...  :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on January 11, 2014, 03:51:23 PM
Never.  Not in a billion years.  Just like their reasons for closing it are Top Secret, so too are their reasons for never selling it.  I stopped expecting anything approaching rational behavior from them on Aug 31st, 2012.

Aye.  I was being whimsical.  But there's nothing 'whimsical' about IP in Corporate land as NC Soft kill games and just sit on the I.P.

Corporations want all the ideas...all the I.P and want to squash rival IP.

Luckily reverse engineering has precedent.  And with A.E tools, the community can create individual, non infringing IP to run over the server..?

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on January 11, 2014, 05:28:12 PM
I don't know why nc chose to kill off coh.  I tend to agree that they should have folded the servers into 1 or 2 and let the game live with little to no support beyond the usual, "I'm stuck" type of help.  Frankly, I would have been happy if they never issued another issue.  I doubt will ever get the real reason and am willing to bet at least half here wouldn't believe it anyway.  That's why I say the reason they killed it is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that unless we make it free to play, it will generate revenue.  Certainly enough to hire a full time programming staff, artisans, writers, etc.  Likely we'll get even better support.  It's a win for almost everyone.  The only one who losses is ncsoft and that I don't have any issues with.

And I figure we're talking somewhere between half to two mil per month once it's up assuming nc doesn't find a way to kill it.  I'm also reasonably certain the teams developing our new homes are taking necessary precautions.  The biggest problem we have is giving those teams time to complete their work.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: alphajaybo on January 11, 2014, 06:46:49 PM
I don't know why nc chose to kill off coh.  I tend to agree that they should have folded the servers into 1 or 2 and let the game live with little to no support beyond the usual, "I'm stuck" type of help.  Frankly, I would have been happy if they never issued another issue.  I doubt will ever get the real reason and am willing to bet at least half here wouldn't believe it anyway.  That's why I say the reason they killed it is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that unless we make it free to play, it will generate revenue.  Certainly enough to hire a full time programming staff, artisans, writers, etc.  Likely we'll get even better support.  It's a win for almost everyone.  The only one who losses is ncsoft and that I don't have any issues with.

And I figure we're talking somewhere between half to two mil per month once it's up assuming nc doesn't find a way to kill it.  I'm also reasonably certain the teams developing our new homes are taking necessary precautions.  The biggest problem we have is giving those teams time to complete their work.

But the server wont be able to earn revenue....... if ncsoft find out that its earning revenue, then they will sue... and they will win and wont get any bad publicity or get any after flame that will hurt them. as long as they own all rights to CoH we cant make revenue off of it
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on January 12, 2014, 12:43:10 AM
But the server wont be able to earn revenue....... if ncsoft find out that its earning revenue, then they will sue... and they will win and wont get any bad publicity or get any after flame that will hurt them. as long as they own all rights to CoH we cant make revenue off of it

As long as their code and intellectual property isn't be used, they have no legal standing.  If either project is using ncsoft code or IP, then they will be within their rights to take legal action regardless of whether or not the server is making money.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on January 12, 2014, 03:26:52 AM
As long as their code and intellectual property isn't be used, they have no legal standing.  If either project is using ncsoft code or IP, then they will be within their rights to take legal action regardless of whether or not the server is making money.
yup.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: FatherXmas on January 12, 2014, 03:30:41 AM
As long as their code and intellectual property isn't be used, they have no legal standing.  If either project is using ncsoft code or IP, then they will be within their rights to take legal action regardless of whether or not the server is making money.

And who exactly wrote the game client again?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on January 12, 2014, 04:51:17 AM
I don't know why nc chose to kill off coh.  I tend to agree that they should have folded the servers into 1 or 2 and let the game live with little to no support beyond the usual, "I'm stuck" type of help.  Frankly, I would have been happy if they never issued another issue.  I doubt will ever get the real reason and am willing to bet at least half here wouldn't believe it anyway.  That's why I say the reason they killed it is irrelevant.

Why a server consolidation and an ongoing development stasis never happened, is something that still puzzles me over a year later. You would think this would have been worth doing, just for the customer good will this would generate.

They didn't give a damn, and will never give a damn. We are trash to them.

UNLESS!  Someone starts making money off a rogue server, then you'd better believe they will land on that with both feet and a team of twenty lawyers, giving not just one but a multiplicity of damns.

That is why it is essential that no money be charged for a reverse-engineering project. Nothing will get NCSoft's attention faster, and not in a good way.

That's kind of like saying, "Star Trek the original series is no longer produced. Hasn't been produced since the 1960s. But I want it back! So I am going to hire my own Kirk, Spock and McCoy. We start shooting in February. Paramount is no longer using this part of the property, so that means its a free for all."

Um, no.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on January 12, 2014, 05:17:06 AM
That's kind of like saying, "Star Trek the original series is no longer produced. Hasn't been produced since the 1960s. But I want it back! So I am going to hire my own Kirk, Spock and McCoy. We start shooting in February. Paramount is no longer using this part of the property, so that means its a free for all."

http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on January 12, 2014, 05:21:50 AM
Any servers that get finished from either of the reverse engineering projects will not ever require you to give them money to play. I'm pretty sure everyone working on those projects knows that such a thing would result in a quick and painful lawsuit, and then our only solutions would be the various "Plan Z" games, assuming any of them actually deliver anything remotely close to what we all are looking for in a replacement, or someone winning the Powerball, and dropping a large enough figure to entice NCSoft to sell. And based on all the speculation following the shutdown, it's my belief that that figure would have to be at least 7 to 8 figures to make NCSoft even consider letting go of the IP considering their apparent enjoyment of just sitting on dead properties...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on January 12, 2014, 05:36:43 AM
I don't know why nc chose to kill off coh.  I tend to agree that they should have folded the servers into 1 or 2 and let the game live with little to no support beyond the usual, "I'm stuck" type of help.  Frankly, I would have been happy if they never issued another issue.  I doubt will ever get the real reason and am willing to bet at least half here wouldn't believe it anyway.  That's why I say the reason they killed it is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that unless we make it free to play, it will generate revenue.  Certainly enough to hire a full time programming staff, artisans, writers, etc.  Likely we'll get even better support.  It's a win for almost everyone.  The only one who losses is ncsoft and that I don't have any issues with.

And I figure we're talking somewhere between half to two mil per month once it's up assuming nc doesn't find a way to kill it.  I'm also reasonably certain the teams developing our new homes are taking necessary precautions.  The biggest problem we have is giving those teams time to complete their work.
well the idea of server mergers and slowing down on issue releases been brought up a couple of times through out the years and man were their riots and a resounding "NO!" against it. Mostly worries about names. Of course in hindsight if chosen between what happened in the end and simply picking another name and dealing with old content for a while, I think , keyword, I think many would gladly choose server merger. I was one of those people long ago saying maybe servers should be merged because some of them were all but empty. Lot of flame for that. But people that mentioned it on the forums got the business much worse.

Although I think someone had a decent point against the content slow down thing at the time. It may give the appearance that the game was in maintenance mode, aka dead in the water.

And yeah no matter what reason they give true or not, I don't think many people would believe them anyways so what would be the point. Business wise, realignment reason is common, happens all the time in the business world and is always viewed as valid reason...until it affects the product that that particular person cares about or use. Then it's not good enough. Kind of like jails and prisons. People clamor to get more built but fight tooth and nail to prevent one from being built in their neighborhood. You know, but it in anyone else backyard besides mine sort of thing.

but yeah no revenue should be made or that is gift drop lawsuit.


You know, Pontiac dead brand GM have no plans on bringing it back. Thus it's not making money for them just like any other IP a company may sit on. They were actually in financial trouble too yet, still turned down an offer someone made them for the brand and they had dealership set  up for it, factory set aside and everything and ready the whole nine yards plan for it. GM turned them down flat but they are selling Saturn and Hummer. They needed the money too. In most cases companies may not need the money  yet some sell their IP some don't. Why? Who knows. Why do some people fight tooth and nail for an outcome that they want and others simply believe they have no control of what happens? Who knows.

Now, do this mean the person can go and produce his own car as a business, and sell it as a Pontiac? No. He cant even make his own car using no Pontiac or GM parts and slap the emblem on the hood even though GM is not using it. Or even use the distinctive Pontiac grille. Even if he planned on giving the cars away for free. Victim of company realignment, although a bit more involuntary, end result ended the same. Realignment, some stuff had to go.

But...he can create his own car that rides, feel, handles, even use the same electronic OBD codes, and looks like a Pontiac if one squint their eyes and use a different arrow head emblem design like color navy blue  with a serrated edge that is more shorter and wider with a square instead of the cross thing, and even have the same horsepower and performance as a Pontiac.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on January 12, 2014, 04:59:15 PM
And who exactly wrote the game client again?

That, FatherXmas, is the $64,000 question because that entity is the one who would be sending C&Ds.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on January 12, 2014, 05:02:16 PM

That is why it is essential that no money be charged for a reverse-engineering project. Nothing will get NCSoft's attention faster, and not in a good way.

That's kind of like saying, "Star Trek the original series is no longer produced. Hasn't been produced since the 1960s. But I want it back! So I am going to hire my own Kirk, Spock and McCoy. We start shooting in February. Paramount is no longer using this part of the property, so that means its a free for all."

Um, no.

May I refer you to the legal battles between the free BSD OSes and AT&T?  They charged nothing for FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD but AT&T went after them anyway over using AT&T code.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on January 12, 2014, 05:09:46 PM
Any servers that get finished from either of the reverse engineering projects will not ever require you to give them money to play. I'm pretty sure everyone working on those projects knows that such a thing would result in a quick and painful lawsuit, and then our only solutions would be the various "Plan Z" games, assuming any of them actually deliver anything remotely close to what we all are looking for in a replacement, or someone winning the Powerball, and dropping a large enough figure to entice NCSoft to sell. And based on all the speculation following the shutdown, it's my belief that that figure would have to be at least 7 to 8 figures to make NCSoft even consider letting go of the IP considering their apparent enjoyment of just sitting on dead properties...

If there's no charge then who is going to pay for the hosting?  Servers and data circuits aren't free.  I suppose the projects could place billboards all over the game map using google ads to supply content.  I could just see an ad for McDonald's on a billboard somewhere.  Maybe a set of golden arches on a corner building.  Maybe even have a stateman like toon hocking hamburgers.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gleech on January 12, 2014, 05:12:02 PM
That, FatherXmas, is the $64,000 question because that entity is the one who would be sending C&Ds.
Not sure if you're understanding how much power a publisher has over a game...

The publisher gains all right to content created for the game they're publishing. No matter who (by the way, I'd be willing to put money down that it wasn't just one person as it appears you're presuming) created the client, NCSoft owns it.

It's the same reason why Posi stated he can't use his own, original character "Positron" anymore. Once he signed the papers and created Positron as a character for City of Heroes, he's no longer allowed to use that character for any other project he works on. NCSoft holds the rights to it. Sure, Posi originally created Positron. But the problem is that the publisher holds every and all rights to the game and all content. Anything created for the game is owned by NCSoft, meaning the client is owned by them as well.

In fact to all you saying "Well NCSoft is just handing us the client! It's clearly free to use!"... Well then why is it that they required the only access to the client to be through the NCSoft Launcher? Remember that thing? As well as the fact that I believe the only downloads for the i24 client are fan-hosted. I don't believe NCSoft is officially hosting the client download anymore. If memory serves correct, you have to download a torrent or you'll have to download it off some site a fan uploaded it to.

If there's no charge then who is going to pay for the hosting?  Servers and data circuits aren't free.  I suppose the projects could place billboards all over the game map using google ads to supply content.  I could just see an ad for McDonald's on a billboard somewhere.  Maybe a set of golden arches on a corner building.  Maybe even have a stateman like toon hocking hamburgers.

I can run a server just fine from my own computer. Also, sites like... well, for example, this one, could host the server, but accept donations or something and end up putting that towards the server. (Not saying that there's no way to sue for that, but I've seen sites do that before)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Shenku on January 12, 2014, 05:23:57 PM
I can run a server just fine from my own computer. Also, sites like... well, for example, this one, could host the server, but accept donations or something and end up putting that towards the server.

Exactly. The idea is to run our own servers without the perception that any profit is being made, because if there appears to be profits involved, NCSoft will be throwing more than just C&D letters out, their lawyers will be looking to get that money plus percieved damages or some such. Long story short, whomever they nail with that lawsuit is going to be bankrupt afterwords.

And yes, servers would cost nothing extra if you're running them from your own computer, so in cases like that, donations for offsetting server costs wouldn't even be needed because there is no cost to begin with.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Gleech on January 12, 2014, 05:42:31 PM
Yeah the donations thing was just basically a "last resort" kind of thing. I'm personally all for just running servers from our computers. (In fact I was hoping such a thing would exist, purely for my friends and I to play on a customized private server for our needs. We do a lot of roleplaying and I'm hoping to have a server all to ourselves and our roleplays. xD Not to say we wouldn't play on bigger, more populated servers, but there's a time and place for that as well as there being a time and place for our roleplays.)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TonyV on January 12, 2014, 06:05:47 PM
May I refer you to the legal battles between the free BSD OSes and AT&T?  They charged nothing for FreeBSD, NetBSD, or OpenBSD but AT&T went after them anyway over using AT&T code.

That's a little different in that BSD and various commercial Unices were still being actively used.  The free versions actually financially impacted AT&T.  It's also important to note that everyone who has gone after FreeBSD, Linux, the FSF, etc. has lost--those products are still out there, and the cases that were lost or settled set important precedents that allowed other free software to flourish.  I can't emphasize enough that if NCsoft were to pursue suing people and lose, it would significantly damage not just their business model, but that of virtually every online game.  I've said this before and I'll say it again: They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by going after people.

If there's no charge then who is going to pay for the hosting?  Servers and data circuits aren't free.

Some folks would run them voluntarily.  For small communities, hosting isn't THAT expensive.  Some folks might even run servers out of their residence.  For larger communities, funding servers would probably be a voluntary effort, as the Paragon Wiki and the Titan Network (http://cohtitan.com/) is (see bottom right corner).
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on January 12, 2014, 09:22:52 PM
http://www.startreknewvoyages.com/

I started feeling sweaty, just looking at that page. Sweaty as in, a sweat of fear *for* the people doing this. Do they have some kind of agreement with Paramount?!! Now this looks like it has "SUE ME PLZZZZZ!" written all over it. Truly, those people have cojones of brass; I would not be able to sleep at night for fear of impending legalities.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on January 12, 2014, 09:53:42 PM
I started feeling sweaty, just looking at that page. Sweaty as in, a sweat of fear *for* the people doing this. Do they have some kind of agreement with Paramount?!! Now this looks like it has "SUE ME PLZZZZZ!" written all over it. Truly, those people have cojones of brass; I would not be able to sleep at night for fear of impending legalities.

I have to say that I did find your example rather humorous (ironic?). Seeing as the situation you described was EXACTLY what these people did and pretty much demonstrated that you were wrong.

They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing.  Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on January 12, 2014, 10:32:11 PM
I have to say that I did find your example rather humorous (ironic?). Seeing as the situation you described was EXACTLY what these people did and pretty much demonstrated that you were wrong.

They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing.  Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).
different company different view on that type of stuff.

Some "unofficially" allow it, as long as it don't get in their way. Other don't care and hell might even help them build the stuff. Other have zero tolerance no matter what. Other let it go on for a few years then bring down the hammer later. Some don't care as long as there is no middle fingers involved and it's kept quiet. Others don't give a crap and will viciously fight for their exclusive rights to the said property that they spent millions on even if they are not using it at the time. Other Simply state they don't like it, but as long as they don't cross such and such line, have at it. Others send out C&D and leave it at that, a token show that they don't condone it but really wont do anything. Others send C&D and then lawyer and court date even if it's miniscule out of principle. And sometimes it's more about how and what they are doing and in some companies if it's well done and bring good stuff to the stuff as a whole, they let it fly. Other there don't care if it brings 2 million new people to the product, they are going to sue the snot out of ya or try to.

I guess the only way to find out for sure for sure is to simply do it, and see what happens. Nothing may not happen, something may happen. When faced with unknowns it's a folly to automatically assume one or the other event WILL guaranteed to happen in the favor of the ones that may or may not be walking a gray area. It's called a gray area for a reason. And just because one company allows it doesn't mean all companies would allow it in the same situation. Not to mention, it's possible they simply asked and laid down their plan to the owners and gotten the green light and allowed parameters. There are tons of stuff that don't exist now and didn't make big news headlines or catch news for doing stuff that many people would say. Remember most corporate lawyers are not sitting around for years doing nothing until a Fox NEws worthy story crop up every few years. There are a lot of cases that never hit the news they work on, lot of suits and court cases where it's a simple dude that no one heard of getting sued. And even then sometimes the corporate wins, sometimes they lose. Sometimes they gain money when the win, sometimes they don't when they win. Sometimes it's a simple court ordered C&D that take place and not the tv style stuff that many people expect to happen with news cameras and publicity and face and all that stuff people assume corporations are losing sleep over day and night and the end result being one person walking away with a bunch of money and the other left in financial ruin. Usually it's lot more simple and quieter than that with sometimes it's a simply a judge basically saying "Ok, you. STOP IT! Now get out of here."

But if I could be paid 6 figures to sit around to do one case every few years that happens only in the wide spread public light, then hell, I'm in the wrong business eh? :D

Not to mention lawyers are usually human too and some think the company they work for are straight dirtbags but hey it pays the bills while others may have some hardcore loyalty to the company, but usually they are simply doing what their check signers and the law tell them to do and simply doing their job even if personally they feel it (the law) not 100% right and should not exist.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on January 12, 2014, 11:00:54 PM
They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing.  Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).

George Takei also guest starred in a different episode as aged / future Sulu, and several writers who were involved both in the original series and the various spinoffs have contributed scripts as well.

I can't find it now, but I remember reading that they had the tacit verbal okay of several of the higher ups in the Trek franchise, so long as they continued to not profit off of it. Same as fan fiction more or less. Nothing in writing though, so if that changed they could still be targeted and forced to stop.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on January 12, 2014, 11:24:17 PM
JaguarX.

Very thorough answer.  Copyright, Companies and human beings.  It's a minefield of variety.  And, basically, what you're saying is true. 

Only one way to find out. 

I remember Dave Sim of Cerebus the Aardvark saying his copyright was his continuing published product.  He didn't sign contracts with corporations.  He didn't trust them and their legalise.  And if people wanted to publish a better Cerebus comic they were welcome to try.  How true that is and whether his view have stood the test of time who knows.

But you couldn't imagine a company like Marvel saying that.  And you have the whole issue of legacy copyrights that 'could' pass into the public domain OR be challenged after a certain amount of time and passed onto the original creator's heirs.

When money (or potential money) becomes involved matters change.  Some comic companies don't mind fans producing fanzines or homage as long as the 'sum' involved isn't a direct challenge.  (i.e. selling a handful of copies to a very limited readership...)  Others get a direct response telling them to back off.

Look at the case between Apple and Samsung over the iPhone vs S3.  'Trade dress' and U.I concepts.  Those are two companies worth billions going at it over products that are earning billions.

The Star Trek example is interesting.  Fans go to conventions in Trekkie costumes.  Do they get sued?  They're wearing a company's 'art'?  Clearly, the fan base there helps the overall I.P.  In the link to the 'Phase II' homage...it seems they must have had permission.  A 'gentleman's' agreement.  But if it's not in writing?  The next 'head' of Paramount may say, 'Changed my mind.  Stop that.'  The key thing here?  Non-profit and permission seeking has helped their case.

Could we see N.C Soft being as reasonable?  When they said they couldn't find ANYONE (reallllllly!?!?!?!??) to buy CoH?  (Probably wanted £80 million rather than the £10 million they paid Cryptic for it?)  I'm speculating there.  Sometimes you have to test the waters.  Time.  Clever people.  More time.  And see what happens?  Sure.  Discretion too.

Coh isn't earning billions.  It was earning millions. It's not now.  But it's NC's IP.  It was shut down for semi-nebulous reasons.  Some reasons I've taken at face value, some not.  We can look at Tab Rasa for their response to any potential private server.  C&D letter? 

The PC industry was virtually built on reverse engineering.  So their's prior 'art' there?  As long as the 'brain' isn't copyrighted code and is used 'peer to peer' to create stand alone, local Lan or distributed network...I don't see how they could object.  They gave the client away freely (the body of assets). 

Are they going to be able to track 100,000 peer to peer private server copies which could be run locally for 'offline' play?  Are they going to sue their fan base over non-profit activities?

It's a fascinating subject.  Did the coders of all those C64 games come out the woodwork and sue all the emulator sites?  Can they sue me for running an emulated version of Mutant Monty when I have the original tape? :P

I've really enjoyed reading the responses on this thread by Codewarrior (and particularly his and Tony's robust responses on the 'Mega Icon thread...worth a read!), Tony, OhioKnight, Jaguar, Gleech etc. 

Good debate.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on January 12, 2014, 11:30:48 PM
I don't see how they could object.  They gave the client away freely (the body of assets).

They could probably object to people distributing the client since it's their code. That they gave it away before doesn't really hold water if they change the terms.

That's why the official Icon distribution requires a legally obtained client to function, which pretty much everyone who's here should have since they were subscribers. There may be some rogue distributions floating around, but they're not condoned or supported.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on January 13, 2014, 12:12:23 AM
There's a lot to be said for both wide-open public servers and invite-only private ones. When any player at all is allowed to join a server, you end up meeting people you never knew you wanted to play with. I've met some great friends in City that I don't really have much in common with outside of the game. If I had only ever spoken with them through a forum first, I'd probably not have hung out with them at all, and that would be a shame since I'd be missing out on some really cool friends that way.

On the other hand, I pretty much agree with everything you're saying about why private servers would work well. Each and every server could tailor the game perfectly to that group of players, so that they get to play their perfect game without having to be interrupted by events and players they don't enjoy. The one and only hitch with that is, you only ever get to play with people you already know from somewhere else. You're protecting yourself from the things you don't like, sure, and that's great. But you're also preventing yourself from finding new things that you didn't know you'd like until someone else asked you to try it.

For my money, I think the ideal solution would be to allow both. Set up one public server with "vanilla" rules that anyone can log into, where players can mingle and find new people to play alongside. Also let folks set up their own private servers with their own adjustments to the rules and the environment so they can enjoy the game their way with their group of friends. (Although to prevent cheating, don't let them transfer those characters to the vanilla server.)

But one thing I definitely think should be enabled is for ALL the servers, public and private alike, to be able to hook up to one central set of global chat channels. Anyone on any server could talk to anyone on any other server, as long as you're in the same chat channel. Stuff like Help and LFG and etc would be local to that server of course, but the global channels would be exactly that: world-wide. Just like how someone on Freedom could talk to someone on Liberty if they were in the same global channel. But this way any server, public or private, could talk to any other if they wanted to (as long as it was online of course). I think that would help people get the exact play experience they want, while also still allowing the communication that would keep the playerbase at large interacting with one another.
That's a great post.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on January 13, 2014, 12:19:51 AM
Well the problem also lies in the the fact that ex COX players are not psychically linked. Meaning if no one hears or know, for protection, then more than likely when "great download" happens, there wont be a bunch of people waiting for something or know of something to download that they dont even know exist. Which, while getting the word out even then, make it easier target for the lawyers than if if was in development stage. Because then now they have then, and have evidence of distribution and dont have to go after the others and instead hold the main source, or as near as they can, responsible for the distribution. Alot of MP3 file sharing sites went down like that thinking if they get it out no one will find them. Lo and behold most got sued for millions and held responsible for distrubution of those files and made it easier to prove the damage, unrepairable damage was done. At the same time, there are many that got away. Just have to be careful and stop being so surely that they are outsmarting every single legal team on the planet. More than likely their plan is not very new or that unstoppable. That is how many get caught. When they start thinking they are untouchable and their plan is infallable and under estimate their enemy, it bites them, usually to their suprise. Too much like it's a sure thing they will get away with it scrot free in Robin Hood fashion and the evil NCSOFT will be conqoured for ever and ever and everyone will live happily ever after while NCSOFT wouldnt dare do anything within their power to fight back. They will roll over and forget about it. Could be. But prepping only for that scenario and not looking at all possibilities that is possible can lead to utter disaster and someone being finanicially ruined for trying to do something they thought was the right thing to do.   

Remember they dont have to supress all copies. And more spread out it gets, the more they can charge as damage caused by the person they catch distrub. If I get a product(used in manner to mean IP trademark, Copyright/ and actual property and or product) and someone steals it and use it for their own, then I dont have to track down every single person that got it. I can find that one, preferable the one that started it, and charge them and make a good case that because of them, all those people that have the copy, that money should have been mine and thus they owe me the market price and damage and business loss of the known people that may have it and a bit more since it is still being distributed due to that person.  In the age of internet, most things if not everything online is traceable from the conversation to the people that suggest doing this to the people that is actually doing it and whether or not they read and or posted here or not.
Heck....just give the files to a person like me and I'll post it.   I've got no money for NCSoft to take.   They think they are going to get millions from me?  Good luck with that.  Bankruptcy laws.   Throw me in jail?   Maybe it would be worth it.   
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on January 13, 2014, 01:43:32 AM
True story, I was just thinking about running my friday night msr. But then I was like F*CK!

I really don't care about the legal bs. The minute someone releases code to get this game playable again I'll be spreading it to every torrent site I can find. F*ck ncsoft and F*ck the EULA. I'm mad as hell not being able to play, losing my internet social groups and friends and losing the best virtual world to ever exist. I'll do whatever it takes to share the game with the world once it's available.
Hells yes!

NCSoft can bite me.  Might be fun to force them to spend a lot of money trying to keep a game shut down that they have no intention of ever opening again and that was going to make them zero profit.   If they are really that idiotic, it would be fun to watch.   That's not to even mention the further PR hit they would take in the gaming community.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on January 13, 2014, 01:52:42 AM
You're assuming that anyone is a position to send a C&D would even notice.  From what I've heard, NCsoft's U.S. presence is mainly just a skeleton crew of puppets who take and carry out orders from the corporate HQ in Seoul.  I'm almost certain that the people in Seoul are willfully ignorant of what's going on with City of Heroes.  If I were a betting man, I'd wager that they are actually actively tuning us out, and even if someone in actual authority got an email saying, "Hey, there's a private server here," they'd hit delete before reading it, just like they've probably done with every other "Hey, the City of Heroes players are [whatever]..." email.
Sounds like a fun thing for CoH players to do...spam their email box with "Hey there's a private server here" emails leading to shock sites and Rick-rolling.   That should make their finger move quite a bit faster on the delete key I'm thinking.   8)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on January 13, 2014, 02:02:23 AM
I have to say that I did find your example rather humorous (ironic?). Seeing as the situation you described was EXACTLY what these people did and pretty much demonstrated that you were wrong.

They've been around for quite a few years and haven't exactly been quiet about what they're doing.  Walter Koenig appeared in one of their episodes as Chekov after encountering an aging ray (or something).

Good for them, and for their "please donate here" clickable icon on page one.

I am a considerably more cautious character, and standing on a bare hilltop during a thunderstorm clad in copper armor, holding a sword aloft while shouting "ALL GODS ARE FOOLS!" isn't really my style. If others want to do that, that's their business.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on January 13, 2014, 03:02:27 AM
Sounds like a fun thing for CoH players to do...spam their email box with "Hey there's a private server here" emails leading to shock sites and Rick-rolling.   That should make their finger move quite a bit faster on the delete key I'm thinking.   8)
I find your suggestion to be despicable and thoroughly dishonest.

So, is there perhaps a spam service I could contact to start doing this for me?   ;)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tacitala on January 13, 2014, 04:34:16 PM
Sounds like a fun thing for CoH players to do...spam their email box with "Hey there's a private server here" emails leading to shock sites and Rick-rolling.

I'm pretty sure they have some sort of filter that marks anything to do with CoH as spam by now.  :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on January 13, 2014, 05:21:51 PM
As far as New Voyages goes, some of the actors actually appeared in the new Star Trek movies. CBS / Paramount have a standing policy that as long as no money is made off of fan productions, they're fine (with appropriate disclaimers that Star Trek is owned by them, etc. etc.). Given that so many fan fiction tropes (Mary Sue, slash, for example) developed from Star Trek fan fiction, and the fervor of the fan base, this is a sensible policy.

NCSoft has demonstrated that they have no such policy, with their shut down of other games' servers. Maybe attitudes have changed, but even if personal attitudes are different, it would probably look bad if they allowed a CoH server, when they have previously shut down Tabula Rasa et al.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: OzonePrime on January 13, 2014, 07:18:45 PM
I find your suggestion to be despicable and thoroughly dishonest.

So, is there perhaps a spam service I could contact to start doing this for me?   ;)
Too funny!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on January 22, 2014, 11:37:07 PM
I'm pretty sure they have some sort of filter that marks anything to do with CoH as spam by now.  :P
Even better if true.   That would take care of any tattle-tales trying to alert them to the bad-ole CoH players playing the game again.  :)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Tahquitz on January 23, 2014, 12:50:45 AM
Retracted.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: RockLeeXIII on February 14, 2014, 08:38:35 AM
Greetings all ...

It's been some time since i popped into the site and was wondering how the private server for CoH was going ...

I see this topic has grown a lot however the last post was in jan ...

thanks in advance.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: FlyingCarcass on February 14, 2014, 07:57:17 PM
Even better if true.   That would take care of any tattle-tales trying to alert them to the bad-ole CoH players playing the game again.  :)

Perhaps, though the choir of Dimensionless may tip 'em off.  :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on February 20, 2014, 08:21:19 PM
In fact to all you saying "Well NCSoft is just handing us the client! It's clearly free to use!"
If memory serves, the EULA for City of Heroes specified that the game client was licensed to players, and technically speaking we are no longer entitled to have it or use it any more.  I'm unaware of anyone actually being sued for having or using a dead game client before, and I don't think anyone (even NCSoft) would attempt to go after all the former City of Heroes players and force them to delete their game clients, but its not true that NCSoft just handed out the client "for free."  It wasn't, in the legal sense, free to use for any purpose in perpetuity.

Having said that, its important to recognize a critical distinction between NCSoft going after dead client modders (i.e. Icon) and going after reverse engineered server devs.  In the first case, absolutely no one cares and NCSoft has no real reason to go after such people generally.  But in the second case, they could decide to go after those people purely on principle.  Some legal eagle with idle billable time may decide that its important not to set the precedent that NCSoft will look the other way on private servers, even if its for a game they no longer care about.  That means the probability of NCSoft going after client-modders is effectively zero, but the odds of them going after private server devs is not zero.  Its not high, but not zero.  Remember: it costs in-house counsel practically nothing to pursue that, because those guys get paid whether they work or not.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Graydar on February 20, 2014, 10:16:09 PM
Screw your CoH server software! I'll make my own! With blackjack! And hookers!

Actually, forget the blackjack!..

Ahh, forget the whole thing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on February 20, 2014, 11:46:03 PM
If memory serves, the EULA for City of Heroes specified that the game client was licensed to players, and technically speaking we are no longer entitled to have it or use it any more. 

As I recall, a number of people have noted that NCSoft distributed the game publicly in a manner that allowed people to download and use the client without agreeing to the EULA -- in effect publishing the software without condition.  It would make for a strange court case.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on February 21, 2014, 07:15:34 PM
As I recall, a number of people have noted that NCSoft distributed the game publicly in a manner that allowed people to download and use the client without agreeing to the EULA -- in effect publishing the software without condition.  It would make for a strange court case.
They eventually updated the client to include a button where you could view the EULA from within the client, and its uncharted legal territory to claim that while one knows there is a EULA and its easy to read someone decided explicitly not to read it so they could claim they didn't know they were violating it when they were using the software.

The EULA is in effect a contract, and contract law is full of caveats that state the *mechanics* of executing a contract are normally considered to be presumptive *evidence* the contract exists, but not technically *mandatory* for a legally binding contract to exist.  A legally binding contract exists essentially when both parties act in a manner consistent with the contract existing.  That's why there exists such a thing as an oral contract, where there is no paper at all.  Its difficult to sometimes *prove* it exists, but if you can prove that person A and person B both agreed to contract terms and were both aware they were entering into a contract, then the contract exists even without any signed piece of paper.

If you know the game client requires agreeing to the EULA as a person knowledgeable in how game software generally works and how NCSoft's software works in particular, and you use it knowing a EULA exists, the legal argument could be made that launching the client presumes you agree to adhere to the terms of the EULA.  Courts generally frown on people willfully attempting to exploit ambiguous technicalities in the law.  If you didn't know there was an EULA, that would be one thing.  Knowing and willfully ignoring it will not impress the court.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on February 22, 2014, 03:32:13 AM
They eventually updated the client to include a button where you could view the EULA from within the client, and its uncharted legal territory to claim that while one knows there is a EULA and its easy to read someone decided explicitly not to read it so they could claim they didn't know they were violating it when they were using the software.

The EULA is in effect a contract, and contract law is full of caveats that state the *mechanics* of executing a contract are normally considered to be presumptive *evidence* the contract exists, but not technically *mandatory* for a legally binding contract to exist.  A legally binding contract exists essentially when both parties act in a manner consistent with the contract existing.  That's why there exists such a thing as an oral contract, where there is no paper at all.  Its difficult to sometimes *prove* it exists, but if you can prove that person A and person B both agreed to contract terms and were both aware they were entering into a contract, then the contract exists even without any signed piece of paper.

If you know the game client requires agreeing to the EULA as a person knowledgeable in how game software generally works and how NCSoft's software works in particular, and you use it knowing a EULA exists, the legal argument could be made that launching the client presumes you agree to adhere to the terms of the EULA.  Courts generally frown on people willfully attempting to exploit ambiguous technicalities in the law.  If you didn't know there was an EULA, that would be one thing.  Knowing and willfully ignoring it will not impress the court.

But very clearly, the purpose of the EULA was to enable and support the playing of the game service that was being offered and ensure subscription -- there is no indication whatsoever that applications of the freely distributed client software (once resident on a user's system) beyond the subscription service (applications such as ICON) were even contemplated.  I would think it could be quite risky to try to get a court to tell people not to use the software you gave them... the court might reasonably, actually consider the question of "why" -- as in "who is harmed"?

I'm also not finding the EULA in the client -- where is this feature to view the EULA from within the client?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on February 22, 2014, 04:24:41 AM
I'm also not finding the EULA in the client -- where is this feature to view the EULA from within the client?

Somewhat ironically, when they moved it from the launcher they put it after a successful login but before server selection. So it is currently impossible to view the EULA from the game client as it requires a functional server to do so.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: dwturducken on February 22, 2014, 11:03:52 PM
Somewhat ironically, when they moved it from the launcher they put it after a successful login but before server selection. So it is currently impossible to view the EULA from the game client as it requires a functional server to do so.

Problem solved! :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on February 24, 2014, 02:38:22 AM
Problem solved! :D

Maybe not.  Paragon wiki has copies with several revisions including sept 2011.

http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/EULA (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/EULA)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: TriNitroToluene on February 24, 2014, 03:12:22 AM
Quote
Paragon wiki has copies with several revisions including sept 2011.

A quick page deletion would take care of that

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on February 24, 2014, 04:55:03 AM
I think the key thing to do is make sure whoever uploads or uses or whatever with any sort of emulator first is someone who actually has no idea about the EULA...

Although it seems to me that NCSoft would have made the EULA pop up right at the start like everyone else, just to cover their butts. I seem to recall seeing it a lot, so I don't know.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on February 24, 2014, 05:10:51 AM
yeah it popped up every time I loaded it. And a copy of it was and probably still is in the COX files and folder.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Takinalis on February 26, 2014, 03:53:44 PM
I have this ideal... but I would need the ability to spawn NPC's by specifying XYZ instead of at current XYZ of player.

I'm pretty far along already, I've been at this for over a week but without this function built into Icon 1.7 I'm stuck.

 :'(

Final edit: Redacted a lot of info. Extraneous.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on February 26, 2014, 06:04:17 PM
yeah it popped up every time I loaded it. And a copy of it was and probably still is in the COX files and folder.

The only copy that the client has is encoded in a proprietary format in the client messages binary inside one of the pigg files, unreadable without extracting and decoding it. Oh, and the EULA prohibits you from reverse engineering the format, so you aren't allowed to do that in order to read it.

Archived copies on third-party web sites are dubious, since there's no guarantee they were transcribed accurately, or that it's what you actually agreed to at the time. The only valid copy is what the game presents after you log in to a server, and/or a printed copy in the box when you bought it (did it come with one? I honestly don't remember).

The document itself was titled "User Agreement", and reads more like a terms of service agreement than a software license. Most of it covers account information and the online service. There is a small EULA-like software license paragraph, which just says it's a revocable license but doesn't list any conditions for that other than violating the agreement.

In any event, it doesn't much matter. If it went to court it would boil down to the same old argument of "Can a software license legally place restrictions on the usage of software, or only the distribution?" Results will vary depending on jurisdiction.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Aggelakis on February 26, 2014, 06:58:53 PM
... and/or a printed copy in the box when you bought it (did it come with one? I honestly don't remember).
Nope! All my boxes have a (couple) disc(s), a quick-help keyboard guide, a mini introduction guide thingy, a couple friend-codes for both City and NCsoft's "other titles", and the NCsoft "other titles" spam leaflet.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JadeFalcon on February 26, 2014, 07:01:22 PM
You can still view the EULA in the client by launching a cityofheroes.exe shortcut with -project coh in the target line and using any username/password. Don't bother selecting the unnamed server though. It just dumps you back to the login screen after a minute or so with a can't connect to DB popup.

Discovered this by accident when trying to bypass the launcher after they announced the game was closing. Didn't know the extra arguments were listed in addcache.xml at the time so I used Process Explorer. :D
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JaguarX on February 27, 2014, 01:10:59 AM

In any event, it doesn't much matter. If it went to court it would boil down to the same old argument of "Can a software license legally place restrictions on the usage of software, or only the distribution?" Results will vary depending on jurisdiction.
basically.

Assuming prep work and a half way decent case is made before getting to court.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: alphajaybo on February 27, 2014, 11:26:07 AM
You can still view the EULA in the client by launching a cityofheroes.exe shortcut with -project coh in the target line and using any username/password. Don't bother selecting the unnamed server though. It just dumps you back to the login screen after a minute or so with a can't connect to DB popup.

Discovered this by accident when trying to bypass the launcher after they announced the game was closing. Didn't know the extra arguments were listed in addcache.xml at the time so I used Process Explorer. :D

Wait so is seeings though a server comes up does that mean that some server files are located client side, Or is it simply a default preset?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Aggelakis on February 27, 2014, 12:19:39 PM
No, -project coh tells the client to skip all the "hooking up to server" part until you get to the main screen. Then it tries to "hook up" with the server and barfs.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Codewalker on February 27, 2014, 03:05:35 PM
Ah yes, I forgot about fakeauth...

Wait so is seeings though a server comes up does that mean that some server files are located client side, Or is it simply a default preset?

What you're seeing is a development and testing shortcut called "fakeauth" mode.  It's something I ran into when dissecting the client but ultimately didn't find any use for.

When launching the game you would specify -auth [ip] to tell the game which auth server to connect to. The NCSoft launcher took care of that. Really old versions used a registry entry instead of a command line parameter to locate the auth server.

Normally you connect to the auth server and log in, then it hands you a list of dbservers to choose from. Upon picking one you connect to that dbserver and get a list of characters.

Fakeauth mode is what happens when you leave out -auth. In that case you'd give it -db [ip], and the game will fake a login screen, then connect to a dbserver directly without really authenticating you. Obviously that would only work for a development server that is set up to allow unauthenticated connections. The client gives you a fake server list with only the IP address you specified in -db listed.

Now if you don't specify either -auth OR -db, the game thinks that it's in a fakeauth mode (because there's no auth server). But since you also left out -db, you get whatever the static default for the dbserver is, which in this case is "DEFAULT", with an IP address of 0.0.0.0.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Takinalis on February 27, 2014, 03:33:49 PM
I play tabletop games. With gridmaps, miniatures etc.

I put a flatscreen behind my laptop and mirror my screen.

I'm using the coh client to replace all of my miniatures and whatnot for Savage Worlds Super Powered campaigns.

These are things I'm doing personally in my own home for me, my friends and my kids. I don't think it's NCSofts business. I bought the client, I'm using the darned thing.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: alphajaybo on February 27, 2014, 05:37:34 PM
Ah yes, I forgot about fakeauth...

What you're seeing is a development and testing shortcut called "fakeauth" mode.  It's something I ran into when dissecting the client but ultimately didn't find any use for.

When launching the game you would specify -auth [ip] to tell the game which auth server to connect to. The NCSoft launcher took care of that. Really old versions used a registry entry instead of a command line parameter to locate the auth server.

Normally you connect to the auth server and log in, then it hands you a list of dbservers to choose from. Upon picking one you connect to that dbserver and get a list of characters.

Fakeauth mode is what happens when you leave out -auth. In that case you'd give it -db [ip], and the game will fake a login screen, then connect to a dbserver directly without really authenticating you. Obviously that would only work for a development server that is set up to allow unauthenticated connections. The client gives you a fake server list with only the IP address you specified in -db listed.

Now if you don't specify either -auth OR -db, the game thinks that it's in a fakeauth mode (because there's no auth server). But since you also left out -db, you get whatever the static default for the dbserver is, which in this case is "DEFAULT", with an IP address of 0.0.0.0.

So its really no use at all, its just a cleverly hidden preset for development servers? Hahaha wish i could play this game so much, getting to the login and seeing the server list made me feel kinda happy yet angry and for some reason Jealous at the fact there is a fake server taunting you :P
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: jcol88 on March 11, 2014, 10:56:11 PM
Hi all. I got about 30 pages in, but then the topic got off topic from Segs and Nem. Are the links on the first 5 pages still the latest for downloading?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on March 13, 2014, 01:35:08 PM
*wonders how the efforts for a 'private server' are coming along...

A long rocky road, I guess... ;)

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: sindyr on March 20, 2014, 12:28:02 AM
So, still no?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on March 20, 2014, 01:47:41 AM
So, still no?

It'd be surprised if a private server shows up within the next year.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 21, 2014, 03:40:10 AM
I would think it could be quite risky to try to get a court to tell people not to use the software you gave them... the court might reasonably, actually consider the question of "why" -- as in "who is harmed"?
In the court of public opinion perhaps, it would be a public relations problem.  But in a court of law, that question is entirely meaningless when it comes to intellectual property.  "But it doesn't hurt them" is not an affirmative defense in intellectual property cases.

Its also important to note the distinction between a court enforcing a EULA, and ruling whether its valid.  This is very critical if subtle distinction.  A court could rule the EULA valid, in which case it could enforce its terms upon any recipient of the software.  Conversely, it could rule the EULA invalid and still order the return or destruction of the software.  The reason is this.  If the court rules the EULA is either not valid or unenforceable, there would then be the separate question of whether there now exists any right for the user to possess the software.  Dissolving the EULA doesn't mean you can hop and skip away and do whatever you want.  It can mean the court rules that NCSoft can't enforce its terms on you, but also that without it there is no longer a legal right to the software, and you'd have to destroy it.  You don't get to just have it just because to took it.  The court could rule that without a valid contract both parties must walk away surrendering any temporary rights they were granted because of the contract that is now dissolved.

I don't think most people who believe they can challenge EULAs fully appreciate that legal point.  The EULA is the reason you're allowed to have the software in the first place.  Destroying it legally doesn't mean you get to keep the software automatically.  If you invalidate the contract upon which you took out the mortgage for your house, guess what?  You don't get to keep the money and the house.  You get to become homeless when the contract dissolves and the money you got only due to that contract must be returned.

The reason we get to keep the CoH client and play with it isn't because the EULA is unenforceable or because of any legal argument: its because its entirely not worth NCSoft's time to try to get back every single copy of it, and because nothing would be worth the bad press if they tried.  But I guarantee you if there was a self-destruct button that was capable of destroying every copy of the client and they pushed it, none of us would have any legal right to challenge that.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cinnder on March 21, 2014, 03:41:38 PM
Huh, that's really interesting, Arcana.  I always thought that my initial outlay of cash got me ownership of the client software and my sub fees rented access to the server services -- under which notion I expected the EULA to cover only the latter.  This in turn led me to conclude that what remains on our PCs at this point is ours, bought and paid for.  Is this demonstrably not the case?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 21, 2014, 11:56:53 PM
Huh, that's really interesting, Arcana.  I always thought that my initial outlay of cash got me ownership of the client software and my sub fees rented access to the server services -- under which notion I expected the EULA to cover only the latter.  This in turn led me to conclude that what remains on our PCs at this point is ours, bought and paid for.  Is this demonstrably not the case?

That's pretty much how most software works.  You buy a license to run the software.  Not the software itself.  Many server based apps actually make you buy a new license annually.  Oracle's database server is done that way.  And, the specs of your machine are factored into the cost so a 4 cpu machine cost more than a dual or single cpu for example.

One of the largest insurance companies a friend worked for uses high end mainframes.  Normally, they use just 2 cpus but during certain times of the year, they have to turn on additional cpus.  They call up their rep, order a license for how many cpus they need.  They specify the duration in hours they need it.  They give the rep the PO number and the rep gives them a code to enter into the mainframe's admin console.  And their system turns into a 4, 6, 8 or whatever they bought for however many hours they bought.  And when it's done, it's done.  automatic shutoff of the code when it expires.  cpus rented?  turned off by the OS automatically.

Believe it or not but it actually saves them money doing that.

Must eulas state in a nutshell:  For your fee, we provide you with a license code allowing you to run 1 copy on 1 computer.  If either you or we decide you can no longer run our software, you are expected to remove it from your machine.  Just be thankful that ncsoft didn't setup a server for us to log into that instructs the client to uninstall itself.  It's doable to write that app.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cinnder on March 22, 2014, 07:47:20 AM
Wait, does that mean that -- if they wanted to -- Eidos could decide I'm not allowed to re-play any of the old Tomb Raider games I bought?  Could Atari legally make me destroy my old Tank and Adventure cartridges for the 2600?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 22, 2014, 08:18:08 AM
Wait, does that mean that -- if they wanted to -- Eidos could decide I'm not allowed to re-play any of the old Tomb Raider games I bought?  Could Atari legally make me destroy my old Tank and Adventure cartridges for the 2600?
Basically yes.  Although technically you could refuse to destroy the physical media as you own that, but they could then force you to destroy the software contained within them by whatever means you want to comply with the order.

The law when it comes to software is not logical in many areas, and I don't expect to see it rationalized in my lifetime.  For example, one legal doctrine says since any content that has copyright protection allows the copyright owner to control when copies are made, then technically speaking the copyright owner of any software you bought could legally prevent you from running it, because running it requires copying the software from the media to your computer's RAM.  Its ludicrous on its face, but on the other hand its surprisingly tricky to write a law that isn't vague that legally allows that to happen that doesn't create loopholes large enough to allow unlimited copying of software under the right technological conditions.  You'd be surprised.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on March 22, 2014, 01:13:18 PM
There are a few subjects that make me bristle.  But 'over reach' on copyright, particularly by large corporations (surprise) is one of them.  Or the Digital Millennium copyright act. 

eg.  Microsoft and Google in the news for reading emails (and or scanning them in the latter's case for ad' placing...)  And the same EULA on emails is there for 'Apple fans' (like myself?) that states that companies and ISPs can read your email.  Without a warrant or court order?  Unapologetically, the contents of that 'letter' are mine.

Or how about the Disney/Marvel case vs the Kirby family on legacy copyright.  It's ok...we'll just let the big companies have copyright in perpetuity.  No surprise Disney won out on that one. :P  Or that the Avengers effectively work for the Government and the CIA *cough, sorry, 'Shield...'  Kind of tells you where we are in the Western Nato, sorry, 'democracies' block, *cough hemisphere.

Or what about Facebook and 'Paper?'

Or Bruce Willis wanting to pass on his iTunes music to his daughter in his will or something.  (Nobody telling me I can't give my darn Vinyl collection to a Yorkshire Terrior if I so please...  *waves at Apple.)

Game 'licences.'

In my C64 days I don't recall them in the software.  Maybe they were on the inlay card.  I guess we knew making tape copies for our friends was naughty.  But most of the software worth buying?  e.g. Impossible Mission and Boulderdash?  I bought.  Had loads of games for it.  £8-10 a pop back then.

Cookies.  I turn them off.  I don't want Apple, Google(!) or MS (!!) spying on me or the NSA.  My phone calls and emails are none of their damn business.

Renting software.  Encroachment by the likes of Adobe 'Creative Cloud' (See ya Photoshop.  Overpriced and using Pixelmator and Manga Studio thank you.)  And MS with their bloated Word suite.  No ty.  Apple gives me the basics and more of what I need there.  I don't need Office macros.  And, of course, you have 3D software that requires an 'always' on net link which irks my ire.

Pick and mix.  If Apple over reach with software strategy I'll delete it and put the iMac through the attic window and see how it copes.

CoH.

1st software that I ever 'rented.'  I did it for ten years or it seemed that long.  And for the best part of it I kept my subs up even when I wasn't playing at times.  So I supported NC Soft through the good the bad and the ugly times.  Obviously the EULA is what it is.  And how many of the 100k to 350k CoH-ers read that EULA?  It's reasonable to expect that a company may go out of business at some point or the game may or may not be financially viable enough as people get bored or as fickle fashion dictates on MMOs...but...  Most people buying software think they 'own' it.

After spending a £1000 or there a bouts...I considered the game box 'mine.'  I bought a software product to use and NC Soft gladly took my money.  The problem with MMOs is no stand alone game.  And I hope the spiritual successors consider an 'off line' mode.  e.g.. Like Unreal Tournament had offline, LAN and online modes.  So I can still play Unreal Tourney today if I so wish.  And if NC Soft ever come to my house expecting me to destroy my box or hand it back I'll expect a refund or I may choose not to let them in my house and the P.R backlash from thousands of similar users could get real ugly real fast.

I think there is a moral case for MMOs to offer an offline mode i.e. the networking part no longer works because a server is no longer there.  But you have a server part on your computer that allows you to play offline.  I'd be far less upset over CoH's closure if I could still street sweep, play the mission content and be the only hero in town.  I could, in reality, live without teaming.  I'd have 'something' for the box money I paid.  (and I bought the box 3 times and bought the Rogue expansion pack...)  I feel I should still be able to play the game in that capacity.  I don't care what the EULA says.  I don't care what anyone else says.

And I'll press the case for the spiritual successors to consider this.  The same with any Coh rising from the ashes (nothing is impossible...)

What can people do?

Shout.  Be difficult.  Be embarrassing.  Make life difficult for companies.  Hand THEM contracts. :P  Choose how you spend your money.

Stop using software.  Demand EULA's in F.A.Q style plain english campaign please.  And demand terms that allow you to 'own'  the use a game/software while your OS and machine still work...and while you have air in your lungs.

Hard to believe what we actually did before computers?  Dunno.  Get better sleep?  Read books.  Go fishing.  Draw.  Kick a ball.  Take in some fresh air...bake rock cakes...etc.

Technically all software is renting in a manner of speaking.  You don't own the code.  Just the right to use it.  But if a company can ask you to stop using it are they going to refund you?  I buy a chair.  I keep it.  I can sell it.  I can swap it...I can trade it.  I can sit my posterior on it...and no, the company that sold me that chair can't ask me for it back or stop me using it or make me sign a EULA.  Come to think of it...I can chop it up for firewood if the chair is beyond use or I'm bored of it.  Consumer choice.

Maybe the customer should author a new agreement.  It's called your wallet.  And maybe after game companies and large corporations e.g. Apple etc are down to their last million they'll lose some of their arrogant hubris.  The power of corporations is not inevitable.

Just because it is so doesn't make it right.  Especially when it comes to large corporations pulling on the strings of the politicians.

'We the people' and all that...

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cinnder on March 22, 2014, 06:30:54 PM
...technically speaking the copyright owner of any software you bought could legally prevent you from running it, because running it requires copying the software from the media to your computer's RAM...

Ha ha, brilliant.  Sounds like a case of taking words meant to apply to printed medium (where it makes perfect sense) and applying them to a new medium without understanding the technology.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Eoraptor on March 22, 2014, 06:39:12 PM
as far as the atari console and cartridges? no. those are analogue technology and not protected by the DCMA. You literally, physically, bought a copy of the hardware and software when purchasing the carts which used solid state transistor tech to encode their data, therefore you own that copy in perpetuity and can do what you like with it until such day as it dies or you do.

as to the rest. kill all the lawyers.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 22, 2014, 06:52:56 PM
Wait, does that mean that -- if they wanted to -- Eidos could decide I'm not allowed to re-play any of the old Tomb Raider games I bought?  Could Atari legally make me destroy my old Tank and Adventure cartridges for the 2600?

If the license provides for it?  Yes they can.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 22, 2014, 07:03:09 PM
Azrael, I feel your pain which is why I prefer running open source software with GPL or BSD licenses where I can.  Most of the software is pretty good and almost every business app has an open source rival.  And, some of the open source is better than the for pay software.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 22, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
Ha ha, brilliant.  Sounds like a case of taking words meant to apply to printed medium (where it makes perfect sense) and applying them to a new medium without understanding the technology.

Yep but I prefer it over DMCA.  DMCA is far worse.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on March 22, 2014, 10:20:29 PM
as far as the atari console and cartridges? no. those are analogue technology and not protected by the DCMA. You literally, physically, bought a copy of the hardware and software when purchasing the carts which used solid state transistor tech to encode their data, therefore you own that copy in perpetuity and can do what you like with it until such day as it dies or you do.

as to the rest. kill all the lawyers.

LOL.  I love it.  Good catch. :P  When did owning software get this complicated?  Back in teh 'owd' C64 days...

Azrael.

PS.
Quote
Azrael, I feel your pain which is why I prefer running open source software with GPL or BSD licenses where I can.  Most of the software is pretty good and almost every business app has an open source rival.  And, some of the open source is better than the for pay software.
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No Surrender!

Cheers, Lady Vamp.  I'd 'lost it' for a while there.  Howling at the moon.  It must have been my time of the week.  I'm just getting fed up of Corporations pushing their luck with the over reaching land grab.  I use Apple kit because I find it simple to use.  But I had a friend who used Linux and open source software like Gimp etc.  And some of it is really good. ;)  It was the use of command line  stuff that I found intimidating.  If Apple ever start pushing their luck too much with me and Linux have a Mac like experience...it won't take me long to push the 'red' button.  I've tried having a Windows tower twice before.  It rubbed my rhubarb both times.  Not for me.

Jeeze.  I used to have cassettes and wait 30 minutes for a game to load in the early 80s.  I used to buy vinyls.  Occasionally tape stuff.  Then we get to CDs and DVDs and everything is suddenly complicated and DRM infested.  As we go to all digital their seems to be a trampling of more and more consumer rights in terms of fair use etc.

I can see why people go open source.  A poke into the eye of Corporate Hubris.  And as much as I like Apple kit they're sitting on 150 billion and it's never enough as they raise the entry prices on their desktops.

Uh-oh.  Starting to rant again...
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 23, 2014, 06:07:00 AM
And as much as I like Apple kit they're sitting on 150 billion and it's never enough as they raise the entry prices on their desktops.
You know, it was not all that long ago when people were wondering if Macs were a novel but endangered species, and the betting pool was whether they would be bought by Sun and turned into their cute low end gimmick or bought by Oracle and disassembled for the technology or bought by Sony and turned into a VAIO subbrand.  No one seriously thought they would even still be around in 2014 that wasn't insane.  Part of the culture Jobs brought to Apple was that Apple was no longer going to play everyone else's game.  They were not going to be the best among many, they were going to be the only among nobody.  They were going to create their own market, target only those customers that wanted that market, and charge a premium for that market.  That's why the focus on high end laptops, then iTunes and iPods, then iPhones, then iPads.  And in every case, the same thing happened.  Some people said it was too expensive, and Apple said if its too expensive for you, too bad for you.

The lesson they learned was that if you do what everyone tells you that you have to do, because that's what everyone else is supposed to do, you will eventually lose if for no other reason than you get unlucky.  Apple doesn't really care about the cash, its just that they also don't care about the people who complain everything is priced at a premium.  Remember when conventional wisdom said Apple should get completely out of the hardware market and just sell MacOS licenses to PC clone manufacturers, because its impossible to compete with hardware?  Whenever someone tells Apple what they are doing wrong with regard to pricing, they remember when that was conventional wisdom.  Which was even more severely wrong than when Microsoft thought that internet-thing wouldn't amount to much.

Its really hard to blame them.  If Apple had listened to what conventional wisdom was telling them at any point in time between 1999 and yesterday, there would be no Apple today.  I can't think of one good reason why Apple should listen to any outsider that tells them what they are doing is completely wrong.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 23, 2014, 06:21:22 AM
as far as the atari console and cartridges? no. those are analogue technology and not protected by the DCMA. You literally, physically, bought a copy of the hardware and software when purchasing the carts which used solid state transistor tech to encode their data, therefore you own that copy in perpetuity and can do what you like with it until such day as it dies or you do.
Oh boy.

1.  2600 cartridges are digital technology, not analog technology.

2.  All transistors are "solid state."  All transistors (in any technology you're likely to encounter) are made from semiconductor material.  The term "solid state" was invented to distinguish semiconductor materials from vacuum tube technology.

3.  The DMCA is not limited to purely digital systems.  For example, see 17 US 1201(k), aka the "Macrovision provision" which deals with copy protection technology used in analog recordings and transmissions.

4.  While the DMCA amends copyright, it is not the totality of copyright protection on software.  Software is protected by copyright separate from DMCA provisions.

5.  Software licenses and EULAs are not specifically the realm of the DMCA.  They are a part of contract law.

6.  As far as I know, Atari 2600 cartridges were sold, not licensed, so yes, there's no license that can be revoked.  The copyright owner can limit your ability to make unauthorized copies of the work or use the work in a manner that requires a license (for example, technically you can't just to a public performance of playing the game without permission).  But because they did not sell a license to the software, they sold a usable media with a copy of the software on it with the implicit right to run it, your right to play those games cannot legally be curtailed by the copyright owner after the fact.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on March 23, 2014, 02:41:11 PM
You know, it was not all that long ago when people were wondering if Macs were a novel but endangered species, and the betting pool was whether they would be bought by Sun and turned into their cute low end gimmick or bought by Oracle and disassembled for the technology or bought by Sony and turned into a VAIO subbrand.  No one seriously thought they would even still be around in 2014 that wasn't insane.  Part of the culture Jobs brought to Apple was that Apple was no longer going to play everyone else's game.  They were not going to be the best among many, they were going to be the only among nobody.  They were going to create their own market, target only those customers that wanted that market, and charge a premium for that market.  That's why the focus on high end laptops, then iTunes and iPods, then iPhones, then iPads.  And in every case, the same thing happened.  Some people said it was too expensive, and Apple said if its too expensive for you, too bad for you.

The lesson they learned was that if you do what everyone tells you that you have to do, because that's what everyone else is supposed to do, you will eventually lose if for no other reason than you get unlucky.  Apple doesn't really care about the cash, its just that they also don't care about the people who complain everything is priced at a premium.  Remember when conventional wisdom said Apple should get completely out of the hardware market and just sell MacOS licenses to PC clone manufacturers, because its impossible to compete with hardware?  Whenever someone tells Apple what they are doing wrong with regard to pricing, they remember when that was conventional wisdom.  Which was even more severely wrong than when Microsoft thought that internet-thing wouldn't amount to much.

Its really hard to blame them.  If Apple had listened to what conventional wisdom was telling them at any point in time between 1999 and yesterday, there would be no Apple today.  I can't think of one good reason why Apple should listen to any outsider that tells them what they are doing is completely wrong.

I remember it very well.  All very true.  Yeah, yeah.  Gil Amelio (can you hear the crickets chirping?)  Sun or someone potentially buying them.  The clone wars...the share price in the gutter...I've still got the scars.

I'll credit Steve for their renaissance.  The best tech comeback in history.

I bought a PowerMac clone ;) in 1997.  That and a bought Creative suite and I was as computer happy as I've ever been.  Poetry and beauty.  Best thing I ever did.  Buying a PC a few years later?  The worst thing I ever did.

Their products are exceptional because they focus on a 'few' things.  It's a sound philosophy.


But my pet peeves are taking out the DVD drive in the iMac, upping the price of the iMac from £999 inc VAT in the UK to £1099 then £1199 and charing you circa £60 pounds for an external DVD.  It's not like the world economy is in the toilet. 

And that was the latest in a line of moves on the iMac line that peeve me off.  Eg.  When 2008 happened Apple dropped the £695 inc VAT iMac and made the entry iMac £999 inc VAT.  In the middle of a recession.  It's not like they weren't making boat loads of money any how.

And before that...Apple had an iMac (the bubble gum boiled sweets iMacs) entry model for £595 inc VAT.  You had a screen, mouse and k/B.

You now have the Mini which has no screen/Kb/Mouse for a little less.

Ie.  An entry model with all the bit included is now £700 more for the iMac.

It's perverse how they offer a few laptop models that are cheaper than the cheapest all in one they do.




That's just an example of how they've got a bit (!) greedy to me.  And they force you into cynical up sell to get certain GPU features and their price of Ram is :o 

In contrast.  They give away their software for free.  It's great stuff.  OS, Office type suite.  Aperture for the money is good.  Final Cut.  All amazingly priced compared to the olden days.

So yes.  I remember the dark days well and all the media bashing they took.  I was rooting for them back then.  I'm more 'so-so' now because of few things.  The iMac example being one of them.

I have an iPhone, iMac flagship model, iPad, Apple TV. 

I'm happy with Tim Cook's leadership.  And yes, Apple stores are a work of art.  Been to a fair few.

But immune from criticism they aren't. ;) 

Anyway...back to private servers to run CoH...hopefully with an OFFLINE mode!!!  :P

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 23, 2014, 03:01:16 PM
Azrael, chances are you're already using linux in some form or another.  Ever use an android phone or tablet?  Yup.  That's linux under the hood.  There's even talk of building desktop PCs so they can boot either windows or android.  Fedora isn't too bad on the command line anymore.  Ubuntu all but eliminates the need for the command line for their desktop distros.  Upgrades to the next version with them are extremely simple.  Got windows apps you can't live without?  Install wine.  Believe it or not but I ran coh under ubuntu with wine installed.  120 FPS.  Worse I ever saw was about 50 FPS during a hami raid.  Same hardware under windows could make about 30 FPS.  With Hami raids, could go as low as 5 FPS under windows.  (Ouch!)

Like the look of your mac?  XFCE I believe has a theme to make it look almost identical to the mac.

While I'm thinking about it, you can get to the mac's command line now.  It's basically BSD unix under the hood.  Based on NeXT and not FreeBSD as many believe.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 23, 2014, 07:38:20 PM
While I'm thinking about it, you can get to the mac's command line now.  It's basically BSD unix under the hood.  Based on NeXT and not FreeBSD as many believe.
NeXTstep was built with a Mach kernel and a NetBSD-like OS layer above it to give it a BSD-Unix/POSIX like environment.  OSX is based on NeXTstep with significant modifications over the years.

Quote
There's even talk of building desktop PCs so they can boot either windows or android.
I honestly have no idea why anyone thinks this is a good idea, at least in terms of a business manufacturing decision.  If you could wave a magic wand and make it happen, sure.  But the design decisions that go into making an Android platform and a Windows platform are completely different, and attempting to make something that is optimized for both is likely to fail, and something that is optimized for neither is definitely going to fail (as no one will want to buy it).

Desktop PCs can afford to throw hardware resources away on tasks, so running Android in a hypervisor (perhaps with some dedicated hardware support) makes sense to me.  Dual booting makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 24, 2014, 04:32:50 AM
NeXTstep was built with a Mach kernel and a NetBSD-like OS layer above it to give it a BSD-Unix/POSIX like environment.  OSX is based on NeXTstep with significant modifications over the years.

I honestly have no idea why anyone thinks this is a good idea, at least in terms of a business manufacturing decision.  If you could wave a magic wand and make it happen, sure.  But the design decisions that go into making an Android platform and a Windows platform are completely different, and attempting to make something that is optimized for both is likely to fail, and something that is optimized for neither is definitely going to fail (as no one will want to buy it).

Desktop PCs can afford to throw hardware resources away on tasks, so running Android in a hypervisor (perhaps with some dedicated hardware support) makes sense to me.  Dual booting makes no sense to me.

My guess would be the manufacturers of desktop hardware are trying to figure out how to keep their businesses afloat.  We are at a point where computing is moving away from the desktop/laptop model.  Some of you will no doubt think I'm crazy, but I don't believe the cell phone nor the tablet has much life left either.  Probably no more than 15 years tops.  We are moving into the world of implanted technology. 

While it's being pioneered for people with disabilities today, it will become a necessity for all as those who are paraplegic, for example, will not only return to full functionality but will be able to surpass those of us without the disability.  A person who cannot hear today will be able to hear better than a purely biological human.  The non-enhanced human if you will.  And, obviously, immersive gaming comes with this tech.  So does immersive movies. 

What did we do for the last 8 years?  Beat up our keyboards and mice and joysticks to do what?  Beat the hell out of hami, hellions, skulls, clockwork, etc. using a screen,  a window if you will into that world.  What I'm saying is in 20 or so years, we'll look back on CoH and wonder how much more of the game could it have been.  Imagine you flying over AP.  Feel the wind in your hair.  Look down to see your friends at the statue.  Having real time conversations instead of typing on a keyboard.  Punching Lord Recluse in the gut.  Getting punched back and feeling it.

Now the manufacturers of desktops/laptops are trying to figure out how to extend the life of the systems they know.  It's in vein.  The death of their businesses will happen so long as they ignore the future.  I fully expect them to try to make android work as a desktop OS.  Apple will try the same thing with IOS.  It's inevitable.

You don't know why they think it's a good idea?  Because they don't know what else to do.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 24, 2014, 09:14:52 AM
We are moving into the world of implanted technology.
That replaces conventional computing?  Not in fifteen years.  Its worth considering what most people ignore when they talk about a future with self-driving cars.  Want to take a guess as to the single biggest problem with self-driving cars?  No one knows how to insure them.  Without a way to regulate liability for a technology like that, it will never be a mainstream technology.  That's also why we don't have flying cars.  Its not that its hard to make a flying car.  Its hard to make a flying car that is impossible for a stupid driver to kill dozens of people on the ground with.

Some implanted technology is coming, and its inevitable that there will be certain applications that become highly ubiquitous.  But there's already a backlash to the loss of privacy associated with Google Glasses.  There are environments where I'm still required to surrender my camera phone: I would be literally unable to be a professional in the IT industry in my current capacity if I had the kind of technology implanted you're describing.  No one would allow me anywhere near them.  Those kinds of accommodations to technology tend to be the things futurists fail to account for when they attempt to project where technology is going and how fast it is going to get there.

No one, and I mean no one, is going to walk into an Apple store and have surgically implanted technology inserted into their bodies on the spot.  Just the practical reality of deploying bioimplanted technology is daunting and it would take years just to figure out the logistics.  And that's only after you find a company crazy enough to take on the liability issues associated with that.  We only just got past lawsuits against cell phone companies claiming the radiation from them was giving people brain cancer.

As a novelty, sure.  As ubiquitous sign-up-grandma technology?  Not for decades.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cinnder on March 24, 2014, 11:09:25 PM
Want to take a guess as to the single biggest problem with self-driving cars?

For me it would be the taking of the driving away from me.  For me that would be like a self-playing game or a self-reading book; it removes the element I like best about the activity.

Which is also why I've never understood PLing.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Kaos Arcanna on March 25, 2014, 01:46:29 AM
For me it would be the taking of the driving away from me.  For me that would be like a self-playing game or a self-reading book; it removes the element I like best about the activity.

Which is also why I've never understood PLing.

On the other hand, it could be continued independence for older people who are no longer able to drive themselves. Or for people who are physically unable to drive themselves.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 25, 2014, 02:55:23 AM
That replaces conventional computing?  Not in fifteen years.  Its worth considering what most people ignore when they talk about a future with self-driving cars.  Want to take a guess as to the single biggest problem with self-driving cars?  No one knows how to insure them.  Without a way to regulate liability for a technology like that, it will never be a mainstream technology.  That's also why we don't have flying cars.  Its not that its hard to make a flying car.  Its hard to make a flying car that is impossible for a stupid driver to kill dozens of people on the ground with.

Some implanted technology is coming, and its inevitable that there will be certain applications that become highly ubiquitous.  But there's already a backlash to the loss of privacy associated with Google Glasses.  There are environments where I'm still required to surrender my camera phone: I would be literally unable to be a professional in the IT industry in my current capacity if I had the kind of technology implanted you're describing.  No one would allow me anywhere near them.  Those kinds of accommodations to technology tend to be the things futurists fail to account for when they attempt to project where technology is going and how fast it is going to get there.

No one, and I mean no one, is going to walk into an Apple store and have surgically implanted technology inserted into their bodies on the spot.  Just the practical reality of deploying bioimplanted technology is daunting and it would take years just to figure out the logistics.  And that's only after you find a company crazy enough to take on the liability issues associated with that.  We only just got past lawsuits against cell phone companies claiming the radiation from them was giving people brain cancer.

As a novelty, sure.  As ubiquitous sign-up-grandma technology?  Not for decades.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.  Those that had a working body who lost part of it will likely want the freedom of having it back again.  Most would be willing to give anything to be able to hear or see or walk again.  15 years is a guestimate.  Might be 20.  No one really knows for sure.  What I do know is when the def guy can start hearing better than you, you'll have little choice but to have an ear implant just to keep up.

The backlash to surveillance is will be like most issues.  Short lived.  It will sink in importance to the masses with the next "crisis".  If you're worried about being watched them go ahead and barricade yourself in your home and stop using your debit/credit cards and no checks.  Today, you're watched like you'd never believe.  Advertisers watch your every purchase.  So does your credit/debit card company.  Banks watch your money movements.  Your employer watches you work.  Your email is scanned at work.  If you're using gmail, it is scanned for advertisement possibilities.  At least they admit to it.  Who knows what else they're doing in there.  Some companies go so far as to load key loggers on their machines.  Hell, merge the meta data from your cell phone, your credit/debit card, your emails, and your banking.  That alone gives an incredible picture into who you are.

As for the use of that tech, I liken those that make you surrender your camera phone to the record companies and riaa when mp3 first became downloadable.  Lawsuits slinging in all directions.  It was futile and short lived.  I expect laws will change to stop people from publishing rather than take the picture/movies.  Today they will fight tooth and nail to stop you from taking pictures/movies.  Tomorrow they will fight tooth and nail to stop you from publishing the pics/movies you took.  And an underground picture/movie "economy" will form just as it did with mp3s.

As for conventional computing, that's the same argument the mainframe guys said about Novell and Windows NT a few decades ago.   All I see is a move back to mainframes which we are now calling the cloud.  The mainframe will do the heavy work and be a centralized storehouse.  The tablet/cellphone of today and your implanted computer of tomorrow will be the interface and will take on light work and store data you choose not to put into the the cloud.  The back-end parts are already being built.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 25, 2014, 03:02:19 AM
For me it would be the taking of the driving away from me.  For me that would be like a self-playing game or a self-reading book; it removes the element I like best about the activity.

Which is also why I've never understood PLing.

You realize a movie is, in a sense, a self-reading book.  I don't think they will actually take driving away from us but rather pitch it as a new feature.  If you think about it, cruise control is pretty standard these days and many people use it but only on highways or interstates.  The cars will likely monitor your driving and if you drift too often or too far, the car will take over.  That will be the safety feature.  The convenience feature will be the option to turn it on at anytime which most will consider doing when on the interstate or highway.

As for PLing, I'm guessing you would say the journey if I asked what is more important.  The destination or the journey.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Aggelakis on March 25, 2014, 07:42:56 AM
The cars will likely monitor your driving and if you drift too often or too far, the car will take over.  That will be the safety feature.  The convenience feature will be the option to turn it on at anytime which most will consider doing when on the interstate or highway.
They already have cars that monitor your driving. There are cars that monitor your driving so closely and carefully that if you get too close to something in front of you, it will apply your brakes for you. If you come up to something stopped at too fast a speed, it will STOP your car for you - some of the new Mercedes can do it in a matter of a couple seconds: faster than it would take you to notice the thing, move your foot from the gas to the brake, and begin applying the brakes. Some cars even monitor when going in reverse - never again back into that pole you can't see out your back window!

I have something a step down from that, lights on my side mirrors that go on when something is in my blind spot. A rear-view camera just above my license plate to allow me to see stuff behind me. Not automated, but the poor (wo)man's version. :)

I work in the auto industry, this stuff is fascinating and exciting and technology improvements are moving at breakneck speed!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on March 25, 2014, 07:50:49 AM
If you're worried about being watched them go ahead and barricade yourself in your home and stop using your debit/credit cards and no checks.
Actually, post-cryostasis for me (most likely), in the far future, this is in fact exactly what I plan on doing.  There won't be any privacy anywhere in realspace, so I'm moving into virtual space - permanently.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Cinnder on March 25, 2014, 08:48:06 AM
On the other hand, it could be continued independence for older people who are no longer able to drive themselves. Or for people who are physically unable to drive themselves.

Oh yeah, I'm sure it can help a bunch of folks -- as long as it's optional.  Heck, I won't even buy a car with automatic transmission.  Though I can certainly see the advantages of some of the cool new safety features mentioned above.

You realize a movie is, in a sense, a self-reading book.

I couldn't disagree more.  There are many media for presenting stories: oral, written, stage, film, game...  Each has its own advantages, style options, etc.  There are some books that would never work as films.  Hasn't stopped Hollywood from making movies of them, of course. :-)

As for PLing, I'm guessing you would say the journey if I asked what is more important.  The destination or the journey.

OK, fair enough.  You're right about how I'd answer that question.  Guess same could be applied to driving: some folks might just want to get there.

Anyway, sorry about the multiple threadjacks in a single post.

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on March 25, 2014, 02:52:36 PM
It's interesting what the legality of single player CD games is, just because it's not at all practical to enforce anything. Makes any laws about not allowing people to do things with it almost silly.

As for the use of that tech, I liken those that make you surrender your camera phone to the record companies and riaa when mp3 first became downloadable.

I'm under the impression that Arcana meant places that have security clearance issues. This may not be exactly the situations Arcana's in, but I have a friend who got top secret clearance for the government, and he said that there are certain rooms / places where you can't bring in technology, and anything you write down on paper has to stay in the room. It's a far cry from the RIAA getting angry over downloading mp3s to the government protecting top secret material.



Assuming implanted technology really does become as prevalent as some think, one of the issues I see is with athletes. Let's say bionic eyes become ubiquitous. What about, for example, Olympic archers? So let's say everyone at age 5 or whatever gets a bionic super eye, assuming they live in the right country. Does that mean that when superstar archer Jane grows up, she can't compete in the Olympics, because she has an unfair advantage? Parents would have to keep their kids from getting any implants until they were pretty sure they weren't going to be professional athletes, which could end up putting them at a disadvantage and ostracization earlier in life (you know kids would make fun of Jane if she was the only one without a "real" eye). Or perhaps the Olympic Committee would create divisions, for "natural" atheletes, paralympians, and "enhanced" athletes.

This is a concern for genetic modification, as well. Eventually, it seems much more likely to me that people will be screened or modified before birth (a lá Gattaca). What sorts of modifications would be allowed in the Olympics? Something like: "Ok, you eliminated the gene for early-onset halitosis, that's fine", versus: "You gave your child super strength, of course you can't have her compete in weight lifting." And then you get the same problem, where if little Janey doesn't have genetically modified super strength, but every other kid does, that causes issues. Especially if modifications (of any sort) become prevalent enough that normal people are at a disadvantage or discriminated enough. Also especially when only certain countries have these modifications.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 25, 2014, 06:22:34 PM
I wouldn't be so sure of that.  Those that had a working body who lost part of it will likely want the freedom of having it back again.
You are conflating replacement body parts which we already have and are developing better versions of, and augmentation technology which is still very limited in scope.  And those people make a conscious effort, when its necessary, to take the risks associated with implantation surgery for the benefits thereof.  There's a presumption that those risks are reasonable risks.  If something goes wrong when someone is trying to get an iPod implanted, their relatives are not always going to take the position that risk was reasonable.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 25, 2014, 06:27:02 PM
I'm under the impression that Arcana meant places that have security clearance issues. This may not be exactly the situations Arcana's in, but I have a friend who got top secret clearance for the government, and he said that there are certain rooms / places where you can't bring in technology, and anything you write down on paper has to stay in the room. It's a far cry from the RIAA getting angry over downloading mp3s to the government protecting top secret material.
That's an obvious situation, but there are others less obvious but no less unarguable.  Many hospitals and health care organizations bar camera phones in certain areas due to HIPAA concerns.  Many financial institutions bar camera phones in sensitive areas for other regulatory reasons.  Technically speaking, if you are even a waiter at a restaurant and you had augmented vision implants, you would personally need to pass a PCI audit or you wouldn't be allowed to handle credit cards.  And you would have to prove to your employer they could verify you did not record card holder information.  Because if they let you  work there, and you steal that information, not only would you be liable, they would be also for being stupid enough to hire someone with eyeballs that could record credit card numbers.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 25, 2014, 06:34:30 PM
I couldn't disagree more.  There are many media for presenting stories: oral, written, stage, film, game...  Each has its own advantages, style options, etc.  There are some books that would never work as films.  Hasn't stopped Hollywood from making movies of them, of course. :-)
Because every story can be told in different ways by different media, every story told in one media can be adapted for a different media.  But that doesn't mean every story can be translated perfectly, particularly ones that explicitly attempt to leverage the media they are in.  Scott McCloud talks about this in Understanding Comics and some of his other works: reading a comic is an active, not a passive experience in which the writer/drawer is attempting to *evoke* the story in the mind of the reader, not simply describe it.  Because that evocation is very specific to the media, in many cases its impossible to translate into other media.

My go-to example for this is Book 4 of Watchmen.  Aka Dr. Manhattan's soliloquy.  The movie tried admirably to capture a small piece of what that book does, but it doesn't really come close.  And actually, however much Snyder misses in some areas of story, he definitely did a good job overall capturing the visual aspect of the story in general.  That book in particular is just designed specifically for the media it was written in, and doesn't have the right touchstones in other media.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Azrael on March 25, 2014, 08:36:47 PM
The best thing about the Watchmen movie was the 'Dillon' introit.  Perfect.

Azrael.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 25, 2014, 11:05:45 PM
You are conflating replacement body parts which we already have and are developing better versions of, and augmentation technology which is still very limited in scope.  And those people make a conscious effort, when its necessary, to take the risks associated with implantation surgery for the benefits thereof.  There's a presumption that those risks are reasonable risks.  If something goes wrong when someone is trying to get an iPod implanted, their relatives are not always going to take the position that risk was reasonable.

I really don't see it as all that different.  Manufacturer A makes replacement arms.  Manufacturer B does too.  A wants you to buy his arms.  B wants you to buy hers.  A offers a feature or set of features not available from B.  Nor are those features available to humans with their original arms.  Your friend who needs a new arm buys A's arm and he has this nifty set of features.  You don't have them but it would be nice if you did so you do what?  Choose to do the keeping up with the Jones routine or shrug it off?  Most people would choose to spend the cash on the arm with the features aka keep up with the Jones.  A's features include retractable 2nd pair of hands for example.  How many of us would like an extra pair of hands?  I don't need new arms but for the convenience of extra hands, I'd consider it.

Today limb replacement tech is primitive and potentially dangerous to your health but the pace of improvements continues to gain.  Right now there are distinctions but those lines will blur. 
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 25, 2014, 11:08:28 PM
I work in the auto industry, this stuff is fascinating and exciting and technology improvements are moving at breakneck speed!

And it will go faster and faster.  The car tech you mention is the beginning of those systems, and, as impressive as they are (they are quite impressive indeed), they're nothing compared to what will be coming.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 25, 2014, 11:30:13 PM
Felderburg, those all interesting questions.  I don't know the answers.  I figure parents will chose to enhance their kids out of fear of being left behind as far as gov't allows them.  Some will go past that legalities be damned.

While I wasn't referring to genetic engineering that too is in the pipe.  GE is way scarier in that changing a few genes so your daughter is a hot blonde bombshell can cause a nasty side effect in her or her children.  It may be generations before the gene splicing's nasties even expresses itself.

I figured Arcana was talking about all the places that have problems today and not just high security gov't positions.  Companies, for example, don't want us taking pictures of their buildings.  Even something as simple as taking your picture next to say a Macy's store sign isn't allowed, and Macy's can come after you in court today over it.  There is little doubt that there are moral and ethical issues that will need to be addressed in addition to the legal issues.  Even making it illegal to have implants or genetic mods won't stop people from getting them.  It will just become an underground industry like say illegal drugs or back alley abortions.  Both of those issues we've had for decades and we're still battling over them with no end in site.

To the OP, I think we've gone way beyond having a private server unless you consider running that server in your head on your implanted computer.  lol
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on March 26, 2014, 03:47:01 AM
Want to take a guess as to the single biggest problem with self-driving cars?  No one knows how to insure them.  Without a way to regulate liability for a technology like that, it will never be a mainstream technology. 
I can't wait for that one.  I hate traffic jams with a passion and will not miss them at all.   Imagine knowing exactly when you will get somewhere for a change!

  I also won't miss the over 30,000 deaths each year from traffic accidents.   No more worrying about drunk drivers either.  If saving over 30,000 lives a year isn't a compelling reason to do it, I don't know what else would convince.

I also dislike driving anyway and won't mind making better use of my time during a commute than staring at the road.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on March 26, 2014, 04:13:50 AM
I also won't miss the over 30,000 deaths each year from traffic accidents.   No more worrying about drunk drivers either.  If saving over 30,000 lives a year isn't a compelling reason to do it, I don't know what else would convince.
That assumes that everyone would want one.  I, for one, don't even like automatics.  I'm staying with a stick shift and driving myself, thank you.  But I don't care about other peoples' self-driving cars (as long they're not crashing into me).
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on March 26, 2014, 05:36:55 AM
  Because if they let you  work there, and you steal that information, not only would you be liable, they would be also for being stupid enough to hire someone with eyeballs that could record credit card numbers.

You know, almost anyone's eyeballs can record credit card numbers.  But yes, we are rather off topic from private servers.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on March 27, 2014, 08:09:00 PM
And it will go faster and faster.  The car tech you mention is the beginning of those systems, and, as impressive as they are (they are quite impressive indeed), they're nothing compared to what will be coming.

Yes, that is true. I am certain we will not miss the several million jobs currently being held by people driving trucks, cars, trains and dare I say, airplanes. What could possibly go wrong?! Think of the newfound leisure these people will "enjoy." Plus, computers are infallibly right, right? No one would maliciously hack a vehicle would they? Nah.

Oh brave new world, that has such unemployment in it.

With that said, yes I still need a private server or the smarts and cash to make one for us.  8)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: r00tb0ySlim on March 29, 2014, 04:28:09 PM
Yes, that is true. I am certain we will not miss the several million jobs currently being held by people driving trucks, cars, trains and dare I say, airplanes. What could possibly go wrong?! Think of the newfound leisure these people will "enjoy." Plus, computers are infallibly right, right? No one would maliciously hack a vehicle would they? Nah.

Oh brave new world, that has such unemployment in it.

With that said, yes I still need a private server or the smarts and cash to make one for us.  8)

HA!!! ^Perfect^  Stay in tech school kids  :)  Now, where is that private server ???
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 29, 2014, 11:08:08 PM
Yes, that is true. I am certain we will not miss the several million jobs currently being held by people driving trucks, cars, trains and dare I say, airplanes. What could possibly go wrong?! Think of the newfound leisure these people will "enjoy." Plus, computers are infallibly right, right? No one would maliciously hack a vehicle would they? Nah.

Oh brave new world, that has such unemployment in it.

Just like we miss the thousands of switchboard operators, the tens of thousands of people in the calculating pool, the hundreds of thousands of people in the typing pool, the telegraph operators, coaling station employees, pony express riders, and manual typesetters.  Think of how much more infallible the ice box was than the modern refrigerator.  As long as the ice delivery guy kept coming, the only thing that could break was the hinge on the door.  And if everyone had to post on the internet through stenographers, just imagine the increase in grammatical accuracy and the decrease in impulsive flame wars.

Also, unless your primary vehicle is a 1978 Datsun, people can already hack your car.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on March 29, 2014, 11:45:07 PM
Just like we miss the thousands of switchboard operators, the tens of thousands of people in the calculating pool, the hundreds of thousands of people in the typing pool, the telegraph operators, coaling station employees, pony express riders, and manual typesetters.  Think of how much more infallible the ice box was than the modern refrigerator.  As long as the ice delivery guy kept coming, the only thing that could break was the hinge on the door.  And if everyone had to post on the internet through stenographers, just imagine the increase in grammatical accuracy and the decrease in impulsive flame wars.

Also, unless your primary vehicle is a 1978 Datsun, people can already hack your car.

Your examples are wonderful, but I'm afraid your point is wrong (I'm not saying your point is wrong, I'm saying I'm AFRAID your point is wrong). 

This version of automation is capable of generating judgement-like effects that make it possible to actually remove humans from nearly all definable activities.  The driver profession is the most powerful example, but already the massive surge in US manufacturing is generating only a tiny percentage of manufacturing jobs per dollar compared to traditional manufacturing -- the robots are getting good ENOUGH that this time it IS different.

And because we have organized our society around the wonderfully effective (and generally beneficial by any measure) capitalist market system, the massive increase in future wealth from tech is going almost exclusively to investors (and the bulk of that to venture investors) which excludes the vast majority of our society.  So how, in this future, is the half of all people with below 100 IQ's supposed to survive?

We have to somehow recognize, legally, that all American citizens are "investors" in the stable social and political system that ALLOWS wealth creation -- America draws investment from all over the world because of our system -- we need our people to receive return for this much as the people of Alaska receive payment for their state's natural resources. (Every Alaskan gets a check from the Government due to oil taxes).

But this has nothing to do with private servers
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on March 30, 2014, 12:30:11 AM

But this has nothing to do with private servers

That depends.  Do you think we can automate the creation of private servers?
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: malonkey1 on March 30, 2014, 12:50:57 AM
That depends.  Do you think we can automate the creation of private servers?

Sure, just don't hook it up to Apple Maps.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on March 30, 2014, 04:56:27 AM
That depends.  Do you think we can automate the creation of private servers?

If that were true I would gleefully accept the destruction of all the world's economy so that I could play COH while living off hoarded granola bars  :-*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 31, 2014, 12:16:00 AM
Yes, that is true. I am certain we will not miss the several million jobs currently being held by people driving trucks, cars, trains and dare I say, airplanes. What could possibly go wrong?! Think of the newfound leisure these people will "enjoy." Plus, computers are infallibly right, right? No one would maliciously hack a vehicle would they? Nah.

Oh brave new world, that has such unemployment in it.

With that said, yes I still need a private server or the smarts and cash to make one for us.  8)

And ppl wonder why I'm going to buy my next vehicle now before they get "upgraded".
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on March 31, 2014, 12:46:04 AM
And because we have organized our society around the wonderfully effective (and generally beneficial by any measure) capitalist market system, the massive increase in future wealth from tech is going almost exclusively to investors (and the bulk of that to venture investors) which excludes the vast majority of our society.  So how, in this future, is the half of all people with below 100 IQ's supposed to survive?

Actually it might be possible to make a socialist system work as all the machines become the commoner class while the humans become the elite class.  The transition might be a little painful, and we'd be in serious trouble if the machines became self aware.

Come to think of it, think they could build some of those machines as transformers?

Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Eoraptor on March 31, 2014, 02:36:44 AM
That depends.  Do you think we can automate the creation of private servers?
Yup/// I'll have skynet get right on that...  8)
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on March 31, 2014, 04:08:14 AM
... we'd be in serious trouble if the machines became self aware.

Speaking of automated, self-aware machines, have you (anyone) seen @HardSciFiMovies (https://twitter.com/HardSciFiMovies) on Twitter? One of my favorites is:
Quote
A robot accidentally develops the ability to feel love. Per its programming, it continues to weld brackets to VW Jetta doors until obsolete.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on April 01, 2014, 02:25:45 AM
Yup/// I'll have skynet get right on that...  8)

We actually do something like that where I work.  We provide Linux VMs setup to mimic our production site for testing code.  It's quite impressive with a full stack having 20 different VMs.  Full api into our ordering system for whenever our devs decide they want an automated tester site to drive testing.  We can build from templates or from scratch using chef scripts and a rhel iso setup for netboot at the minimum.  But thankfully it's not self aware...yet.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Illusionss on April 01, 2014, 03:29:34 AM
Just like we miss the thousands of switchboard operators, the tens of thousands of people in the calculating pool, the hundreds of thousands of people in the typing pool, the telegraph operators, coaling station employees, pony express riders, and manual typesetters.  Think of how much more infallible the ice box was than the modern refrigerator.  As long as the ice delivery guy kept coming, the only thing that could break was the hinge on the door.  And if everyone had to post on the internet through stenographers, just imagine the increase in grammatical accuracy and the decrease in impulsive flame wars.

None of these automated things have the capability to launch 250 or so people into flaming, screaming death or to cause a 200-car pileup on your nearest freeway. Lack of pilots and drivers could certainly do that, because computers are not exactly self-aware and there will be no human in the driver's seat to keep an eye on things. Of course, we have pilots and drivers with malicious intent NOW. But EVERYthing being on autopilot is going to make it soooooooooooooooo much easier to complete tasks of mass destruction.

Sure someone could hack my car. But why bother, when soon we will be able to hack the nearest jumbo-jet. Now there is some mayhem worth doing! One car is not worth bothering with. But hacking a locomotive hauling a bunch of cars loaded with chlorine, passing through a large metropolitan area....? Worth doing, and criminals -are- going to do it.

We will all be watching all this from our cardboard boxes, or blue plastic tarpaulins huddled under the nearest overpass, because lets automate everything right? Jobs are for weaklings. What the 1% forgets is, if no one has a job we wont be able to buy their products - and I will laugh when it happens.

The 1% has this idea that they will just replace the defunct American middle class with the rising Chinese middle class, so who cares if we hunt the US middle class to extinction right? Hah! China ain't letting them anywhere NEAR that market. See: present tariffs and exclusions. So in the end they will lose anyways. Their automated trucks, planes and trains will be driving to nowhere.

Looking forward to playing City of Titans to get my mind off all this. And hopefully at least one private CoX server, 'cause I'm still missing it bad.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on April 01, 2014, 04:40:45 AM
Sure someone could hack my car. But why bother, when soon we will be able to hack the nearest jumbo-jet.
Sorry to disappoint you again, but we can already do that also.  Current commercial passenger jets are already so automated there's no more automation to add.  If you ask them to, they can take off and land themselves.  Its the rules that prevent that from happening, not the lack of technology.

Quote
None of these automated things have the capability to launch 250 or so people into flaming, screaming death or to cause a 200-car pileup on your nearest freeway. Lack of pilots and drivers could certainly do that, because computers are not exactly self-aware and there will be no human in the driver's seat to keep an eye on things. Of course, we have pilots and drivers with malicious intent NOW. But EVERYthing being on autopilot is going to make it soooooooooooooooo much easier to complete tasks of mass destruction.
Estimates are that over 10,000 people die due to alcohol related traffic accidents and over 1500 due to fatigued drivers every year.  About 3000 people died during the 9/11 attacks.  Preventable traffic accidents already generate a death toll comparable to a 9/11-level attack every three months.  If a terrorist organization used automation to kill as many people as the 9/11 attacks did, each and every year, that would be a 75% lower death toll than currently occurs on US highways due to stupidity.

Automation isn't perfect by any means, and I know that better than most.  But the notion that the problem with automated driving cars is hackers causing mayhem on the roads is not a particularly salient risk analysis.

Quote
What the 1% forgets is, if no one has a job we wont be able to buy their products - and I will laugh when it happens.
The 1% doesn't sell products, and will probably ironically be the primary group of people still hiring human drivers if automated driving technology became pervasive.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on April 01, 2014, 02:51:25 PM
Just like we miss the thousands of switchboard operators, the tens of thousands of people in the calculating pool, the hundreds of thousands of people in the typing pool, the telegraph operators, coaling station employees, pony express riders, and manual typesetters.  Think of how much more infallible the ice box was than the modern refrigerator.  As long as the ice delivery guy kept coming, the only thing that could break was the hinge on the door.  And if everyone had to post on the internet through stenographers, just imagine the increase in grammatical accuracy and the decrease in impulsive flame wars.

Also, unless your primary vehicle is a 1978 Datsun, people can already hack your car.
That was what I was going to say.

We typically only look at possible downsides and ignore the benefits of new things.   We always get the doom predictions.   Sure the buggy whip makers went out of business when cars showed up, but lots of new jobs were created to take their place.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Harpospoke on April 01, 2014, 02:54:32 PM
None of these automated things have the capability to launch 250 or so people into flaming, screaming death or to cause a 200-car pileup on your nearest freeway. Lack of pilots and drivers could certainly do that, because computers are not exactly self-aware and there will be no human in the driver's seat to keep an eye on things. Of course, we have pilots and drivers with malicious intent NOW. But EVERYthing being on autopilot is going to make it soooooooooooooooo much easier to complete tasks of mass destruction.
Pessimistic. 

The reason we have traffic jams and traffic deaths now is because people are not smart.   Self driving cars will reduce deaths to a minuscule amount (of course the media will report on the 3 deaths per year and ignore the fact that we no longer have 30,000 a year) and get rid of traffic jams.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Aggelakis on April 01, 2014, 07:28:43 PM
Lack of pilots and drivers could certainly do that, because computers are not exactly self-aware and there will be no human in the driver's seat to keep an eye on things.
There are self-driving cars in the southwest. They have NEVER gotten into an accident that didn't involve the human in the driver seat taking hold of the wheel.

Think about that for a few minutes.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Eoraptor on April 01, 2014, 07:36:53 PM
Twenty years ago I would be on the other side of the argument, trusting far more a human to ake the decisions behind the wheel. but computers are getting very good at data analasys, while humans are getting stupider and stupider and I wouldn't trust many f them to pilot a tricycle, let alone a three thousand pound automobile.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on April 01, 2014, 08:31:50 PM
Please bear in mind, I'm not saying for a fraction of a second that we should stop, slow, or oppose this trend.  The improvements in manufacturing and later in traffic will generate GIGANTIC increases in real wealth (in manufacturing are ALREADY doing so) -- I'm saying that this change will be large and fast ENOUGH that we NEED to make some kind of economic change to accommodate it before it completely breaks our economic system. (and we'd better get started).

In effect, we are going to transform the occupation of a large percentage of our people to be no more inherently productive than the occupations of those who have inherited sufficient affluence that they don't need to work for a living.  I THINK we are going to have to legally define our citizens (speaking U.S. here) as "Investors" in the economy.  As folks make LOTS of new money here due to the stability of our economy and society, we're going to have to charge them for that stability. 

And pay the "investors" dividends in the form of assured minimum income funded by taxes because they won't be able to get jobs.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on April 01, 2014, 08:49:59 PM
Twenty years ago I would be on the other side of the argument, trusting far more a human to ake the decisions behind the wheel. but computers are getting very good at data analasys, while humans are getting stupider and stupider and I wouldn't trust many f them to pilot a tricycle, let alone a three thousand pound automobile.
Automated driving is less about judgment and more about technical capability.  It is extremely rare for a human driver to be given a life or death choice requiring the exercise of human judgment to perform the proper maneuver.  It is far more likely that a human drive is given a situation requiring extraordinary action from a limited number of options, often just one: breaking suddenly to avoid a collision for example.  And even more likely is simply executing the normal act of driving in a straight line within the traffic lane without losing concentration or attention span and while not physically or mentally impaired.  I would not expect a computer to correctly judge what critical option to take when confronted with a dangerous situation with limited information and no obvious logical options.  But I don't expect a human being to do so either: I expect the human to do the wrong thing almost every time in that situation, and statistically they do not disappoint me.

Its true that we often hear about trained pilots making extremely good judgment calls and exercising skill far beyond what current automation is capable of to save the lives of aircraft passengers.  I would not board an aircraft that I did not believe had a skilled pilot in command.  But its also true that the number one cause of air travel casualties is pilot error.  What's more, in most of those cases the cause was not a pilot incorrectly responding to an emergency condition.  It was a pilot making a stupid mistake in a situation that was otherwise routine, and suitable for automation.  The worst aviation disaster in terms of aircraft passengers killed was caused by an impatient pilot attempting to take off without explicit clearance to do so, causing that aircraft to collide with another plane on the ground killing almost 600 people.  This was a skilled, experienced, veteran pilot who nevertheless made the kind of stupid mistake that is completely inexcusable, in spite of attempts to partially blame the crash on "communication misunderstandings."
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: MWRuger on April 01, 2014, 08:56:01 PM
It will take a pretty impressive PR campaign to convince people to give up control of their cars. If you make it optional, it will change nothing as one goober playing the fool will kill the benefits. It goes against our very nature to turn control of our fate over to someone or something else. We only do it when we have no choice or don't realize what we are doing. I think it would have to be mandatory.

Not sure if you could get legislation passed to make this work. Gun registration couldn't be passed with a majority of Americans supporting it. That would easily save countless lives lost to gun violence.

Also, it puts a huge burden on people in lower income brackets who can't afford a new self-driving vehicle. With mobility in most cities very limited when you don't own your own car, that's likely to create a whole class of people with little to no physical mobility.

The civil engineering aspects are immense. How many miles of roads would have to be upgraded to work with these vehicles? In an era when we can't get the money together to keep our current infrastructure in place and functioning a modification of this type would be very difficult to sell. What about roadways that are essentially rural or unpaved?

You can't look just at the tech or even the economic aspects. A change like this would have vast implications for our society as a whole. I think it would take decades to make this happen and a huge amount of capital. I think when we have to start dealing with the effects of climate change we will have little time and money for a project like this, technically feasible or not.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on April 01, 2014, 09:01:31 PM
Please bear in mind, I'm not saying for a fraction of a second that we should stop, slow, or oppose this trend.  The improvements in manufacturing and later in traffic will generate GIGANTIC increases in real wealth (in manufacturing are ALREADY doing so) -- I'm saying that this change will be large and fast ENOUGH that we NEED to make some kind of economic change to accommodate it before it completely breaks our economic system. (and we'd better get started).

In effect, we are going to transform the occupation of a large percentage of our people to be no more inherently productive than the occupations of those who have inherited sufficient affluence that they don't need to work for a living.  I THINK we are going to have to legally define our citizens (speaking U.S. here) as "Investors" in the economy.  As folks make LOTS of new money here due to the stability of our economy and society, we're going to have to charge them for that stability. 

And pay the "investors" dividends in the form of assured minimum income funded by taxes because they won't be able to get jobs.

On another forum, I posted a theory in response to another theory regarding the economy of Star Trek.  Combining their theory with my theory, the basic premise was that in Star Trek, the reason that people claim "money doesn't exist" and yet there does seem to be some sort of economy happening is that on Earth (and many planets of the Federation) the only limited commodity is energy.  With replication technology and ubiquitous computing basic living needs can be trivially met if only you have enough energy.  And because Earth's government produces and incredibly surplus of energy, it can in effect "grant" to its citizens an allowance of "energy credits" that every individual can use to cover the basics of living.  Because of that, there's no need for money and no need for mandatory employment.

What drives the system is people's desire to do more than what the allowance can cover.  If you want to explore the galaxy, you have to work on a starship: your energy allowance won't allow you to construct a space vessel usually.  If you want to have organically grown food as a lifestyle choice, you have to become a farmer.  Or get it from a farmer, perhaps by trading some other skill.

The problem with this type of economic system, in terms of trying to make it work in the real world, is two-fold.  First, it requires a level of technical sophistication and surplus resources that we don't currently have.  Second, it was able to be established throughout the planet because its ideological competitors were decimated in a nuclear war.  How you get there from here without both of those triggers occurring I'm not sure.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: MWRuger on April 01, 2014, 09:09:36 PM
Arcana,

You should try James P. Hogan's Voyage from Yesteryear which posits a very similar make up. Here the traded commodity is skill. Pretty good book. It basically has the exact triggers you suggest with a nuclear war and a remote colony with a sophisticated tech system. Very libertarian in som eways but don't let that put you off. A very good read!
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on April 01, 2014, 09:10:29 PM
It will take a pretty impressive PR campaign to convince people to give up control of their cars. If you make it optional, it will change nothing as one goober playing the fool will kill the benefits. It goes against our very nature to turn control of our fate over to someone or something else. We only do it when we have no choice or don't realize what we are doing. I think it would have to be mandatory.
1.  You don't have to convince people to give up control of their own cars.  You just have to convince them its in their best interests to force everyone else to give up control of their cars.

2.  The Department of Transportation just issued a new rule mandating rear view camera systems in all new cars manufactured after May 2018.  If the technology proves effective and will save lives, its possible to mandate it.

3.  You could still make it optional and have it be effective.  Insurance companies could offer discounts for confirmed use of it.  People who choose to drive manually would face higher liability and higher insurance costs.  And accident rates would still go down if most people choose to use it, even if one goober doesn't and kills someone.  One goober can't possibly kill 10,000 people in a single year to make up the difference.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on April 01, 2014, 09:15:17 PM
Arcana,

You should try James P. Hogan's Voyage from Yesteryear which posits a very similar make up. Here the traded commodity is skill. Pretty good book. It basically has the exact triggers you suggest with a nuclear war and a remote colony with a sophisticated tech system. Very libertarian in som eways but don't let that put you off. A very good read!

Will look for it, thanks.

Its worth noting, in the context of this thread, that when I first outlined my vision on the official CoH forums for an MMO design that placed an emphasis on having single player "private servers" as the modular building block of a larger MMO space some of these thoughts were in the back of my mind.  In effect, the way that would work would be there was some minimum level benefit players could get automatically from the single player experience, but what made the system work was the network effect benefits that could only be achieved by actually using the network.  Part of the engine that drove it was the exchange of content between MMO "islands" that would be mediated by a system I outlined but didn't specify (because a complete specification would be complex to consider).
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Felderburg on April 01, 2014, 09:17:34 PM
The problem with this type of economic system, in terms of trying to make it work in the real world, is two-fold.  First, it requires a level of technical sophistication and surplus resources that we don't currently have.  Second, it was able to be established throughout the planet because its ideological competitors were decimated in a nuclear war.  How you get there from here without both of those triggers occurring I'm not sure.

Not to mention the fact that in Star Trek, most people we see, even non-Starfleet, want to do something - I think it'd be more likely that with a surplus of energy / resources, most people would sit around and play video games on the holodeck all day.

I've also always thought that the nature of Star Trek's post-scarcity economy would only be achievable following the massive wars we hear referenced, and I don't think it's worth it.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: JanessaVR on April 01, 2014, 10:07:46 PM
All I can say is that I'm not giving up manual control of my car, whatever the trend to do otherwise is.  In fact, I'm looking at possibly going the "classic car" of some sort route specifically to avoid all of these lovely new Big Brother features.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on April 01, 2014, 10:14:59 PM
Not to mention the fact that in Star Trek, most people we see, even non-Starfleet, want to do something - I think it'd be more likely that with a surplus of energy / resources, most people would sit around and play video games on the holodeck all day.
Holodeck operations are probably expensive.  You can't live in one on your energy credit allowance, unless you work to earn more.


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I've also always thought that the nature of Star Trek's post-scarcity economy would only be achievable following the massive wars we hear referenced, and I don't think it's worth it.

My theory was that Earth was unique, and the Federation's economic system relatively unique by extension, because of Earth's peculiar history.  At the end of WW3, before any significant recovery of economic or political systems was really established, a maverick invents warp drive with a bunch of parts from Radio Shack.  And that alone would be a footnote in history except he attracts the attention of the Vulcans.  They are curious enough, and concerned enough, about humans to intercede.  Within one generation of first contact, with the help of the Vulcans, a proto-government/economic system is formed based on interstellar trade, almost unlimited off-world resources, and almost unlimited energy.  And all you have to do to join this new society is allow them to give you free energy, food, and housing, and contribute whatever you can to help rebuild Earth.  In effect, the proto-Federation government hangs a "free beer" sign and watches first North America, then most of the rest of the world say "sign me up."

If Earth had developed like Vulcan, rebuilt their society for hundreds of years, then advanced to interstellar travel and a resource surplus economy, those unlimited resources would come with the baggage of whatever social structures were in place to control them.  On Vulcan, it was the proto-Surak world order.  On Earth, if it happened now without a slate-wiping war, it would likely be some western capitalist system that ended up on top controlling those resources.  Although there's an outside chance a country like China, that uses capitalism like a garden tool but doesn't practice its religion, could end up the big winner as well.

I once read someone that said words to the effect that the first country to invent space elevators, with all that technology implies, would also be the last.  With low cost to space capability, space-based solar power becomes a reality, asteroid mining becomes cost effective, and you have almost free energy and almost free resources, relative to the current constraints.  There will be no second place.
Title: I've been there :)
Post by: Illusionss on April 01, 2014, 10:43:28 PM
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Estimates are that over 10,000 people die due to alcohol related traffic accidents and over 1500 due to fatigued drivers every year.  About 3000 people died during the 9/11 attacks.

3000 people dying on 9/11 is not relevant. They died due to malice, not pilot error. Hacks will happen because of malice as well.

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There are self-driving cars in the southwest. They have NEVER gotten into an accident that didn't involve the human in the driver seat taking hold of the wheel.

How many self-driving cars are there? Is this a considerable sample size? I'm thinking, probably not compared to all the other cars on the road. I would be interested to see the performance records of, say, 1000 driverless cars in Manhattan at rush hour over a six-month period, not out in the White Sands Missile Range or wherever. Plenty of room out in the West to avoid other cars! :) I have been there and seen it - driving is so fun there. But I digress.

What I am imagining is millions of driverless cars, and I just do not believe that they'll all be perfectperfectperfect. Of course "millions" might be a misnomer, because everything will be automated and maybe 10% of the population will actually have a job to be driving TO.

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The 1% doesn't sell products

They own the companies that DO sell products. From what I have seen, they're not real concerned with giving back, or making sure that our society can sustain itself in a healthy, peaceful fashion; they're too busy comparing societal anger over the considerable tax breaks they enjoy to..... Kristallnacht. *MASSIVE EYEROLLING HERE*
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Ohioknight on April 01, 2014, 11:54:39 PM
Also, it puts a huge burden on people in lower income brackets who can't afford a new self-driving vehicle. With mobility in most cities very limited when you don't own your own car, that's likely to create a whole class of people with little to no physical mobility.

Except that the tech also makes possible fleets of automated gypsy cars in Zipcar like arrangements.   You don't need your own car, you pay a small monthly fee and some car picks you up and drives you whenever you want.
Title: Re: I've been there :)
Post by: Arcana on April 01, 2014, 11:58:41 PM
They own the companies that DO sell products.
You're really missing the point.  The "1%" you refer to, who are really more the 0.1% of wealth holders, do not sell things, mostly do not known companies that sell products, and would remain the 0.1% even if they stopped earning wages of any kind, assuming at the moment they actually do.  Mark Zuckerberg does not sell any product, does not own any company that sells an actual product, and earns exactly one dollar a year.  Part of the reason there are less of certain kinds of manufacturing jobs is because people don't want those things anymore.  The majority of the US economy is service-based, and most of the "1%" don't make anything, they make their money on services.  And even if they stopped earning that money, they already *have* most of the money.

You don't threaten fish in the ocean by withholding the water in your toilet.

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What I am imagining is millions of driverless cars, and I just do not believe that they'll all be perfectperfectperfect.
You are expressing yourself on an automated system connected to an automated system managed by a set of automated systems.  Without those imperfect automated systems, you would be expressing yourself to a crowd of eight people from a literal soap box.

And claiming they won't be perfect is a strawman.  We don't expect automation systems to be perfect, just better than the alternatives.  That's why those death you think are irrelevant are relevant.  We don't need perfect, we just need better than the alternatives.  And the current situation would be horrifying if it wasn't so common so as to be invisible.  More people are killed by just foolish human automobile drivers in the United States than are killed by all the automation systems everywhere on Earth.  If automated driver technology failed at one hundred times the rate of aircraft autopilots, we would still save tons of lives a year with driver automation.  Hundreds would die due to automation errors.  Thousands would live that currently die.  I'll make that trade every day and twice on Sunday.  The notion that its better if thousands are killed by imperfect humans than hundreds are killed by imperfect computers is viscerally abhorrent.

This is not to say mistakes haven't been made in the past with regard to automation, particularly rushing to automate processes that were not well understood in the first place.  There's as much hubris in engineering as anywhere, as any fault analyst will tell you.  Engineering rules often are only updated when people die: thus the aphorism "code is written in blood."  I am by nature a cautious designer and implementer of technology.  However, historically speaking the luddites have always been wrong, and will likely always be wrong.  Things are rarely as good as the optimists claim, but they are never, ever, ever as bad as the doomsayers predict.  Consistently betting on the optimists will cost you most of your money.  Betting consistently on the pessimists will cost you all of your money.  The best strategy is to ignore the optimists and bet against the pessimists whatever they say.  Do that, and you break the bank every time.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: ryuplaneswalker on April 02, 2014, 02:45:32 AM
Insurance companies could offer discounts for confirmed use of it.  People who choose to drive manually would face higher liability and higher insurance costs.  And accident rates would still go down if most people choose to use it, even if one goober doesn't and kills someone.  One goober can't possibly kill 10,000 people in a single year to make up the difference.

If it is proven that driverless Cars reduce crashes in a significant way mass Insurance companies -will- offer discounts for it because it will save them money in the long run, say Crashes are reduced by 10% that gives the insurance companies the ability to reduce the price by 5% and pocket an extra 5% of profit.

Presuming that a driver less car costs the same as a non driverless car, but even if it does not start that way eventually the technology will become cheap enough for it to be a ubiquitous thing.

In regards to "people hacking them and killing other people by crashing them" a person crazy enough can do that with a car now.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on April 02, 2014, 03:05:26 AM
The problem with this type of economic system, in terms of trying to make it work in the real world, is two-fold.  First, it requires a level of technical sophistication and surplus resources that we don't currently have.  Second, it was able to be established throughout the planet because its ideological competitors were decimated in a nuclear war.  How you get there from here without both of those triggers occurring I'm not sure.

That system you refer to is known as barter, and all it takes is complete loss in the faith of currencies.  It doesn't require nuclear war.  As for surpluses, most every place has too much of one thing and not enough of another.  People barter for the things they need with the things they got.  Things, by the way, might be general manpower or skills and not just something tangible.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on April 02, 2014, 03:09:17 AM
Automated driving is less about judgment and more about technical capability.

I'm guessing you've never ridden a motorcycle on city streets where the difference between good judgement and bad judgement is life or death.  I ride a Suzuki Boulevard S83.  What others are doing and how I will react to what they might do is always on my mind.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: houtex on April 02, 2014, 03:21:29 AM
Motorcyclist checking in to confirm:

Agreed.  Everyone is targeting me.  And I'm targeting myself.  I figure if I watch all us jerks, I might be able to avoid something untowards.

And I do that whatever I'm driving.  Motorcycle or car, doesn't matter.  World's out to kill me, and so'm I if'n I ain't careful.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on April 02, 2014, 03:24:50 AM
All I can say is that I'm not giving up manual control of my car, whatever the trend to do otherwise is.  In fact, I'm looking at possibly going the "classic car" of some sort route specifically to avoid all of these lovely new Big Brother features.

Ranchero or El Camino.  There are people who stopped buying new vehicles when Ford and GM stopped making their respective "cars".  A tragedy really.  Both were incredibly successful.

That would be my classic car.  Pre-computerized.  About as bullet proof as they got.  And more practical than a pickup/suv/sut.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on April 02, 2014, 03:27:41 AM
That system you refer to is known as barter, and all it takes is complete loss in the faith of currencies.  It doesn't require nuclear war.  As for surpluses, most every place has too much of one thing and not enough of another.  People barter for the things they need with the things they got.  Things, by the way, might be general manpower or skills and not just something tangible.
The system being described is not a barter system except in the most superficial of senses; in the same sense as I barter money for Starbucks.  The concept of shortage-free economies has nothing to do with the notion that in a free market excesses are distributed from one place to another.  The question is what happens when certain goods become effectively unlimited for everyone, everywhere in non-trivial non-cornercases, such as energy.  This is not just something I made up for discussion yesterday: its an actual field of academic discussion.  What happens in an economic system where needs cost nothing to deliver?  Do you artificially constrain supply to retain a hierarchy of exchange?  If you don't, what prevents arbitrage seekers from attempting to leverage that free supply to non-contiguous parts of the market?

"Barter" doesn't really answer those systemic questions, because no barter system in history had congruent properties.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on April 02, 2014, 03:29:06 AM
Motorcyclist checking in to confirm:

Agreed.  Everyone is targeting me.  And I'm targeting myself.  I figure if I watch all us jerks, I might be able to avoid something untowards.

And I do that whatever I'm driving.  Motorcycle or car, doesn't matter.  World's out to kill me, and so'm I if'n I ain't careful.

Yep and when behind the wheel of my car, I watch out for our brothers and sisters on their bikes.  Give them extra room.  Protect them when an unruly driver is near (when I'm in the car).  Try to anticipate their responses to a bad situation and get out of their way.  350Z pretty car.  350Z with human hood ornament is not pretty.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: LadyVamp on April 02, 2014, 03:32:37 AM
The system being described is not a barter system except in the most superficial of senses; in the same sense as I barter money for Starbucks.  The concept of shortage-free economies has nothing to do with the notion that in a free market excesses are distributed from one place to another.  The question is what happens when certain goods become effectively unlimited for everyone, everywhere in non-trivial non-cornercases, such as energy.  This is not just something I made up for discussion yesterday: its an actual field of academic discussion.  What happens in an economic system where needs cost nothing to deliver?  Do you artificially constrain supply to retain a hierarchy of exchange?  If you don't, what prevents arbitrage seekers from attempting to leverage that free supply to non-contiguous parts of the market?

"Barter" doesn't really answer those systemic questions, because no barter system in history had congruent properties.

Barter system predated money.   Money systems were created because you can't cut enough grass directly to buy a car but you can have someone give you money for cutting their grass to trade for the car when you've cut enough lawns.

Barter wasn't meant to answer the questions you are asking.  It was a way to trade what you had for what you wanted.

BTW:  US Tax code actually addresses barter transactions too by forcing you to place fair market value for the trade and taxing based on that equivalent transaction
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: Arcana on April 02, 2014, 03:39:51 AM
I'm guessing you've never ridden a motorcycle on city streets where the difference between good judgement and bad judgement is life or death.  I ride a Suzuki Boulevard S83.  What others are doing and how I will react to what they might do is always on my mind.
Motorcycles are not cars.  Even so, if motorcycle operators only exercised the same legal options available to cars, that need for good judgment would largely be eliminated.  You're using "judgment" in a colloquial sense to cover all aspects of driver decision making.  But there's a fundamental difference, from an automation perspective, between the decision to stop in time to avoid a collision, which requires skill but no complex judgment, and the decision on which path to take to navigate a hazardous road, which no automobile driver is *supposed* to exercise, because they are legally required to limit their maneuvering to only safe maneuvers within designated roadway markers.  Taking emergency action because, say, a driver changed lane without clearing a blind spot is not an exercise in judgment.  Its taking the only action proscribed under those conditions.  That doesn't require an expert system to figure out.

"Human judgment" within the context of discussing automation, deals with the case where the computer is presented with a situation in which there are a number of possible distinct options, *none* of them with a computationally guaranteed chance of being successful.  The case where you are required to make the choice to take the only possible action that safeguards your life is skill, not judgment.  That sort of skill is far easier to program into a computer than genuine judgment, which is not needed for automated driving.  In almost every case where an emergency situation arises, you can either slow down or stop, or change direction to avoid the problem.  Only in an incredibly small number of cases will options similar to those not be available or not be applicable.  Humans make life more difficult by making those choices harder to execute, for example by following another car too closely to make an emergency stop.  A computer would be programmed to simply not do that, so an emergency maneuver was always possible.

The hard part is getting a computer to be able to do it at all.  But most of the hazards on the road are due to human drivers operating their vehicles in a manner that reduces the options for hazard avoidance.  A computer, driving conservatively, would not have to deal with most of those kinds of problems because they would not exist for an automated driver.
Title: Re: OK, what now? I need a private server or the ability to run my own.
Post by: MWRuger on April 02, 2014, 04:48:12 AM
1.  You don't have to convince people to give up control of their own cars.  You just have to convince them its in their best interests to force everyone else to give up control of their cars.

2.  The Department of Transportation just issued a new rule mandating rear view camera systems in all new cars manufactured after May 2018.  If the technology proves effective and will save lives, its possible to mandate it.

3.  You could still make it optional and have it be effective.  Insurance companies could offer discounts for confirmed use of it.  People who choose to drive manually would face higher liability and higher insurance costs.  And accident rates would still go down if most people choose to use it, even if one goober doesn't and kills someone.  One goober can't possibly kill 10,000 people in a single year to make up the difference.

I don't think that you will get the speed and efficiency that you need to sell the system with a mix of manual and automatic driving. One guy driving slowly will pretty much kill high speed automatic driving.

I don't think you can sell this system on the basis of saving lives. If you could, we would limit gun purchases and outlaw cigarettes. I don't think people care about saving other people's lives and they certainly don't think they will be part of the statistics. Mostly they want to know how it benefits them. To me this like the promise of electric cars but even harder to sell.

Adding new features, like rear view mirror cameras, doesn't invalidate the current vehicles but his tells me that we aren't talking about the same system. I'm seeing a system whe