Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: BENN on March 03, 2013, 09:14:59 PM
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Listen guys we all appreciate you're working on new projects, but we got a real hope here...help segs out and rebuild the ACTUAL game, it can be done, he has done the hard work now we look to you to help finish the job!
Hope we can get this game back alive!!
8)
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Again, it comes down to legality. People working on the Phoenix Project or Heroes & Villains truly want to stay separate from the emulation project. Reasons for this have already been clearly presented. I wish the SEGS luck, but for me unless I get a TRUE CoH back online I won't risk playing an emulator. NcSoft does shut them down and I won't risk my creations on a potential shut down. Good luck, though, I know there are those that just want to play and wish them no ill will. The risk of mixing Successor Teams with Emulator Teams is not worth it IMO.
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...What I'm not understanding is how anyone is going to know exactly who coded what, and when. Does coding bear an indelible stamp on it, so decoding the emulator would have smoking arrows pointed at the people who made it happen? I have seen many statements here that make it seem that this is so.
Is it really true?
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...What I'm not understanding is how anyone is going to know exactly who coded what, and when. Does coding bear an indelible stamp on it, so decoding the emulator would have smoking arrows pointed at the people who made it happen? I have seen many statements here that make it seem that this is so.
Is it really true?
I'm no expert, but unless they digitally signed their names on it, or if NCsuck had a way of tracking IP addresses via the code...I kind of doubt it.
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I won't risk playing an emulator.
The amount of risk in playing it is about the same as torrenting a movie (That the company won't release). If people aren't comfortable with that, then the emulator probably isn't for them.
Is it really true?
No. They would go after where the servers are held. You're right in saying that nobody can know who programmed what. As this isn't a multi-million business, there won't be resources to track every little file sent back and forth and it's status each time. Nobody is spending resources like that to slap the hand of a programmer.
Only SEGS has a real risk here.
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I thought it was said that there was no project of this type going on? One minute there is denying that there is a project of this type exist, next minutes there is one, the next, it dotn exist, the next they need help.
I'm all for helping but it seems a little shady and I dont mean the IP and legality of it. Or maybe I'm getting it mixed up with the other types of projects that is not beingdenied nor confirmed but being made but not being made.
What exactly is SEGS trying to do. In standard normal language.
On a side note, I dont torrent movies for the reason as it feel like I'm stealing. Not to mention the potential viruses and other complications that come with it. Seen some people mess their computers up royally messing with that torrent stuff. I just buy the movies legally. 15-20 is nothing and not even worth ripping someone off nor risking my computer because some nutcase computer kid want to be funny and upload a virus here. And that is not speaking from tin foil hat, that is actually seen it happen.
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I thought it was said that there was no project of this type going on? One minute there is denying that there is a project of this type exist, next minutes there is one, the next, it dotn exist, the next they need help.
Well, the SEGS existed for a pretty long time. Although we've never advertised ourselves much, that's true.
What might be confusing here is that there are two efforts of building a server-look-a-like. SEGS is one, and the other is much more undercover :)
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Well, the SEGS existed for a pretty long time. Although we've never advertised ourselves much, that's true.
What might be confusing here is that there are two efforts of building a server-look-a-like. SEGS is one, and the other is much more undercover :)
so server look alike yeah. So is it bootlegging the IP and making it work or what? Note:I'm not saying that bootlegging is in itself is bad, although I may not personally partake, it may be a good thing for the people if they can pull it off and understand the risk that is being made for the player and the creator.
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Since anytime this stuff is mentioned we have several people who immediately show up and start chicken-littleing about legalities, I'd say the "risk" if any is pretty plain.
People are gonna do what they are gonna do. If you want to participate do, if not then don't.
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I thought it was said that there was no project of this type going on? One minute there is denying that there is a project of this type exist, next minutes there is one, the next, it dotn exist, the next they need help.
Nobody ever said that. The closest anyone came is when Tony said that The Titan Network is not working on server software and doesn't officially endorse such efforts. We do however continue to publicly acknowledge game client reverse engineering efforts that led to things like Sentinel and Icon existing.
He also mentioned network protocol reverse engineering that could someday be used by such a project, even though you need more than just the protocol for a functioning game server.
It was never said that no one is working on it, and people have been posting links to SEGS since the day of the shutdown announcement, some even on the official COH forums.
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As for the morality of "bootlegging" the CoH world - you can buy movies and play them - you can no longer buy or play CoH.
To me this makes it immoral NOT to return the world that so many used to create characters and worlds of their own. I see it as if NCSoft has the responsibility to sell or enable CoH to exist as the community as a whole could be called a shared work of art. Nothing like it has existed before and may never again.
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As for the morality of "bootlegging" the CoH world - you can buy movies and play them - you can no longer buy or play CoH.
To me this makes it immoral NOT to return the world that so many used to create characters and worlds of their own. I see it as if NCSoft has the responsibility to sell or enable CoH to exist as the community as a whole could be called a shared work of art. Nothing like it has existed before and may never again.
This.
If CoH were still active I would not support a private server in any way. As a matter of fact, I would support NCsoft's right to use their ownership of the IP to shut down those servers because they could threaten the official servers.
However, NCsoft has closed CoH and has reiterated it is not interested in selling. So, because of that I am perfectly fine with supporting and eventually playing on a private server. I would donate real money to help speed the process so long as I knew I was donating to a reputable member of the community who has been working on the private server.
Is it still illegal? Absolutely, but its the only choice we have for getting our game back and that outweighs the risk.
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Nobody ever said that. The closest anyone came is when Tony said that The Titan Network is not working on server software and doesn't officially endorse such efforts. We do however continue to publicly acknowledge game client reverse engineering efforts that led to things like Sentinel and Icon existing.
He also mentioned network protocol reverse engineering that could someday be used by such a project, even though you need more than just the protocol for a functioning game server.
It was never said that no one is working on it, and people have been posting links to SEGS since the day of the shutdown announcement, some even on the official COH forums.
I see. Probably just got the information mixed up or something.
So what exactly is SEGS doing? Sounds interesting, sounds viable, sounds serious effort. From what I gather it's a reverse engineering the stuff in order for people to download and play the game again, or is it a personal server of SEGS and people go to him for access, or how would it work? Would it be like playing COX again? I heard they are aiming for COX like it was in i3 or something.
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I would play SEGS, and I understand the legality and the risks...and I'm thinking a lot of this is underground, under-the-hat, etc. I am not a computer wiz, so I can't help in anything other than moral support...and I only hope that if SEGs works, some of us would be clued in...also, can't recall what issue I came in on, could be 3? But I did not do all of even the basic mishes, so anything would be better than nothing.
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I'm no expert, but unless they digitally signed their names on it, or if NCsuck had a way of tracking IP addresses via the code...I kind of doubt it.
Not with code alone and definitely not with the compiled application.
HOWEVER. SEGS has been using a code versioning system ( was it on SourceForge or on Assembla? I forgot... ). Contributions to that would be logged - that's kind of the idea - and constitute a direct equivalent of what you were concerned about.
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Again, it comes down to legality. People working on the Phoenix Project or Heroes & Villains truly want to stay separate from the emulation project. Reasons for this have already been clearly presented.
The real reasons have not been stated. They are buys making their games that will resemble CoX. They don't want to help a project that may hurt their numbers in the future, nor do they want to put free time and effort into something other than their personal projects. Both of these reasons I understand. However, if a man leaves church on Sunday, goes and murders another man on Monday, the police are not going to automatically arrest everyone in the church. Just because one or two computer wizzes from another project punch keys for an emulator, that doesn't mean that the completely separate project will be automatically doomed.
I wish the SEGS luck, but for me unless I get a TRUE CoH back online I won't risk playing an emulator. NcSoft does shut them down and I won't risk my creations on a potential shut down. Good luck, though, I know there are those that just want to play and wish them no ill will.
The risk to playing an emulator is little to none. They will shut them down and at worst go after the host server, not the individual players. There is no EULA the emu players sign. There is no way to prove that they were aware of the copyright infringement. That falls on the emu coders and server owners. Quit trying to scare people.
The risk of mixing Successor Teams with Emulator Teams is not worth it IMO.
Fine, have it your way. The risk of nothing happening is just too much to risk.
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Given the overall effectiveness of various agencies in trying to suppress all the file trading sites on the internet, I believe the end of this clip (around 1:40) appropriately expresses my level of terror at NCSoft coming after our private/community servers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqDdrT2-bH4
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Given the overall effectiveness of various agencies in trying to suppress all the file trading sites on the internet, I believe the end of this clip (around 1:40) appropriately expresses my level of terror at NCSoft coming after our private/community servers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqDdrT2-bH4
now that video was funny right there. lol.
I think it's a waste of time and tax payer money to create laws that cannot be or are not going to be enforced.
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However, if a man leaves church on Sunday, goes and murders another man on Monday, the police are not going to automatically arrest everyone in the church.
Depends on the police force.
If they are LAPD, they would just shoot everyone.
If they NYPD, they would pick a random person and beat a confession out of them.
If they are ELPD, they will send them to the Mexican prison until someone confess to supplying the weapons.
If it's Atlanta police, they will just shoot someone that look like the perp and say the case is solved.
I'm just anxious to see it come to fruitation so everyone who want to play it or willing to play can be happy.
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I see it like this...
City of Villains is mine. What's on my hard drive is mine. What's on my shelf is mine. If it ever was theirs, they have abandoned it to me. Evidence of this is the fact that they never bothered to come and pick it up, or pay me to store it for them.
And I'll make use of what is mine, just like I'll make use of an old Ford, when Ford no longer makes parts for it.
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Given the overall effectiveness of various agencies in trying to suppress all the file trading sites on the internet, I believe the end of this clip (around 1:40) appropriately expresses my level of terror at NCSoft coming after our private/community servers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqDdrT2-bH4
Andddddd, this.
NCIdiocracy is holding my "precious booty" hostage. I feel no compunction whatsoever about yanking it back from them.
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Please do not ascribe what I'm stating by using murder as an example. I'm a pacifist and found that grossly offensive.
My opinion about my time going to waste if an emulator is shut down is just that. It is my preference to not worry about wasting time on something that could vanish overnight and for reasons that may have nothing to do with a cease and desist. I want the full Official game back. It may or may not happen. So be it. I have a right to use my time in my endeavors without worrying that I may lose something again. That was all I meant by what I said and nothing more. Please don't read more into my statements.
And, again, I do not wish to deter anyone from doing what they want. I gave my opinion and what has been stated, even by Tony V and others. I wish the SEGS luck and if it gets off the ground anyone playing should have all the fun in the world. And before this goes into me being someone that might report said efforts. Uhm, no. I have no reason for be a jerk like that. My words here are simply meant as cautionary and nothing more.
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NCIdiocracy is holding my "precious booty" hostage. I feel no compunction whatsoever about yanking it back from them.
And how precious exactly is your booty? Feel free to exhibit evidence of a photographical nature.
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Well, that degenerated quickly...
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Well, that degenerated quickly...
It only classifies as degeneration if the photographical evidence proves the booty isn't precious... ;D
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3. A valuable prize, award, or gain.
I too consider this to be the definition of booties. Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.
And before this goes into me being someone that might report said efforts. Uhm, no. I have no reason for be a jerk like that
I hope no one here would do that. That would be a cold blooded action. However, I never thought you were saying that:) I took your opinion exactly for what it was. I agree too, if you want play/work on the game go ahead. If not, then don't.
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Depends on the police force.
If they are LAPD, they would just shoot everyone.
If they NYPD, they would pick a random person and beat a confession out of them.
If they are ELPD, they will send them to the Mexican prison until someone confess to supplying the weapons.
If it's Atlanta police, they will just shoot someone that look like the perp and say the case is solved.
Had to lol at this.
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I hope no one here would do that. That would be a cold blooded action. However, I never thought you were saying that:) I took your opinion exactly for what it was. I agree too, if you want play/work on the game go ahead. If not, then don't.
What would there be to report? I was myself a little cautious, but took time to check out the actual SEGS website(thanks for the link) , and past postings about this effort, which seemed to been going on for some time now, and it seems the general concenus is that it's a legal thing to do and thus nothing to worry about nor report, and thus no risk in playing nor creating the project that SEGS is working on.
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Wow, I usually don't find people who define pacifism in that manner these days. I actually have two black belts in well recognized martial arts. Pacifism is not the total denial of violence, but rather looking to other means before results turn toward an unruly end. Several martial arts rely heavily on the credo that there is usually a better solution then brute nonsensical force. Just because I choose a path that dictates I wil not fight, except in extreme circumstances, does not make me a coward, it means I have chosen a more enlightened path.
I also have Aspergers and growing up I emulated the heroes that tried to avoid damage as much as possible. Fortunately, for me, I avoided some of the more serious pitfalls of my condition, but I did come away with a strong sense of duty, honor, and justice. Yes, I have lost friends because they disagree with my views, but that is mainly because I live in a world of greys when my viewpoint is white versus black. Only my family and my girl understand me and for that I am always thankful.
I do not mean any of my commentary to be negative I have just stated what I want and that is the true game back online. For some, like yourself, any chance will be satisfactory. And that is fine. Again, I wish you and those involved in such efforts all the good will in the world. I have no doubt the fruits of said labor will be grand for those that wish this. Sadly, for me, I have moved on. NcSoft won't ever see another dime from me and that is the only message I truly think that matters.
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Wow, I usually don't find people who define pacifism in that manner these days. I actually have two black belts in well recognized martial arts. Pacifism is not the total denial of violence, but rather looking to other means before results turn toward an unruly end. Several martial arts rely heavily on the credo that there is usually a better solution then brute nonsensical force. Just because I choose a path that dictates I wil not fight, except in extreme circumstances, does not make me a coward, it means I have chosen a more enlightened path.
I also have Aspergers and growing up I emulated the heroes that tried to avoid damage as much as possible. Fortunately, for me, I avoided some of the more serious pitfalls of my condition, but I did come away with a strong sense of duty, honor, and justice. Yes, I have lost friends because they disagree with my views, but that is mainly because I live in a world of greys when my viewpoint is white versus black. Only my family and my girl understand me and for that I am always thankful.
I do not mean any of my commentary to be negative I have just stated what I want and that is the true game back online. For some, like yourself, any chance will be satisfactory. And that is fine. Again, I wish you and those involved in such efforts all the good will in the world. I have no doubt the fruits of said labor will be grand for those that wish this. Sadly, for me, I have moved on. NcSoft won't ever see another dime from me and that is the only message I truly think that matters.
I think I have been in three fights in my entire life. Well, "fight" would be stretching it a little for two of them, I think. When I was 11, I stuffed a kid in my locker at school because he wouldn't leave me a lone and was looking for a fight. He made the mistake of getting between me and my locker. I did let him out after class, though. The other "fight" was about the some time period and no-one threw a punch. I just stood up to a bully and let him know that I wasn't going to cower in fear of him. He was all ready to throw one at me, then decided not to. After that, we got along fairly well. We weren't friends, but we weren't really enemies either. The third fight happened when I was 15. A kid and his two buddies wanted to "see" my skateboard. I told them that I'd rather not let go of it. The largest of the three decked me in the mouth and gave me a bloody lip. I suppose I could have nailed him with the skateboard, but instead I just walked away. I didn't have anything to prove to him or any one else.
Normally, I resolve issues by talking.
I really shouldn't ramble so much...
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Hey all, a few clarifications:
SEGS
This is an effort to replicate the City of Heroes server as of an early version of the game, closer to launch than what it was when it shut down in December. I don't personally have anything to do with this project, though I do wish them the best of luck. This is likely (but not for-sure) to be the earliest effort that results in a playable server, given that the server was a lot simpler back then.
Other Compatible Servers
There is at least one more reverse engineering effort underway that I know of, intended to provide a compatible server with Issue 24, which was in the can and due to be rolled out but was never released due to the announced shutdown in August. I'm not personally involved in the development of this server, but from what I've heard, efforts are still pretty early in their development. The protocols have been reverse-engineered, but writing a compatible server completely from scratch is not a light undertaking. Also, I understand your reluctance in trusting a reverse-engineered server, but I've heard some good ideas like ensuring that character exportability is a baked-in function so that the damage from servers simply ceasing to exist is mitigated. I think there are some other good thoughts around this topic, and I'd love to see some discussion about it.
For both of these efforts, I probably wouldn't expect to hear anything for at least a few months, or until the respective teams can carve enough time out of their schedules to put in a lot of time and effort. Keep in mind that the original client/server software was developed over the course of 2001 until April, 2004. I don't think it will take three years since the teams are focusing only on the server piece and since they're not having to do things like design powers, create art assets, balance gameplay, etc.; but still, I do ask that you don't rush things. It'll take a while.
I can't really comment concretely on the legalities of these servers, other than to say that it is my good faith belief that any compatible server developed from reverse engineering efforts that does not use the City of Heroes intellectual property (art assets, names, places, etc.) would be legal.
Also, my personal belief (i.e. this is not a "Titan Network" position or a statement on the legality of the situation) is that given the state of City of Heroes and as long as NCsoft is refusing to budge on releasing the IP to another company, I don't have any moral qualms about people working on a drop-in replacement for City of Heroes. It's utter rubbish to me that after people have spent thousands of dollars on this game, all of their hard work would be wiped away because of a company's decision to change their long-term goals. Some places (not the U.S., unfortunately) are beginning to consider virtual property similarly to real property, and to me personally, this is nothing short of wanton destruction of that property...just 'cause. I certainly understand the "But it's immoral because it's illegal, and you shouldn't do illegal things!" train of thought, but I respectfully disagree with it. But enough of my soapbox, I digress...
The Phoenix Project, Heroes and Villains, and Other Plan Z Projects
These are completely separate projects. Their only relationships to City of Heroes are: 1) the people developing the projects are former City of Heroes players, and 2) they are attempting to capture the essence of what made City of Heroes fun in their respective games. These will absolutely, positively be legal because they're new games with completely different intellectual property behind them. NCsoft doesn't have any kind of rights to the superhero MMORPG genre, and in fact, game rules and mechanics are explicitly not subject to U.S. copyright law.
It's important to note that "we want something City of Heroes-like back!" is only part of the purpose of developing these games. Both teams are convinced--and I am too--that the games will in fact be superior to City of Heroes. Not to knock our beloved game, but it is over 10 years old. There are new game engines now that are easier to use and develop with and that have new tech baked in that the old Cryptic engine (which itself has been updated for newer Cryptic games) doesn't. Computer specifications and system software capability have dramatically advanced in the past decade. There is a lot more reference work in the MMORPG genre from which to draw things that work and things that don't, as well as lessons learned from things done particularly well or particularly badly within City of Heroes itself. As far as I can tell, the goals of these teams are not to produce a City of Heroes clone, but to produce newer and better games that capture what made City of Heroes really great. Thinking of them as being comparable to what should have been City of Heroes 2 would be a lot more accurate than thinking of them as City of Heroes clones.
One of the things I'm hoping both teams learn is that as a community, our members are now gun-shy about heavily investing in a game like City of Heroes. We know painfully well what it's like to feel like you've wasted a lot of time and effort on something that can simply vanish at any time. I've heard ideas from both teams to reassure people that this risk is highly mitigated, and it's my sincere hope that as the projects get further along in development, you'll agree that these games are worth the investment of your time and effort, that you can't simply lose everything even in the worst-case scenario that the projects are eventually abandoned by their respective publishers like City of Heroes was.
Being completely new games, I expect any Plan Z project to take at least two to three years to develop, as unlike the City of Heroes compatible server projects, they will be starting from scratch and having to develop the client, server, mechanics, and assets used in their final products.
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Hey all, a few clarifications:
Thanks Tony...that was helpful. All that stuff was pretty confusing to me.
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Thank you Tony, that clears up a lot of my (lurking) questions.
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I see it like this...
City of Villains is mine. What's on my hard drive is mine. What's on my shelf is mine. If it ever was theirs, they have abandoned it to me. Evidence of this is the fact that they never bothered to come and pick it up, or pay me to store it for them.
And I'll make use of what is mine, just like I'll make use of an old Ford, when Ford no longer makes parts for it.
I love your way of thinking if I could give a thumps up! You'd have mine Sajaana. :)
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There is at least one more reverse engineering effort underway that I know of, intended to provide a compatible server with Issue 24
Issue 24.5 and Issue 25+ actually, probably not compatible with 24 out of the box.
But this is a SEGS thread and I have no idea what you're talking about.
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I hope you weren't offended by my reply as it really was just a joke. I just think that every time one gets an opportunity to request images of another person's butt and remain on-topic, it is a civic duty to do so.
I knew it was a joke; I actually hesitated to use the word "booty," but since it was used in the video figured it would tie in best.
I really do wish we had ONE Plan Z going on, with all of the talent and direction headed in ONE direction. I feel we would get the game out the gate faster, and that things would be more coherent in general. I am not sure there is the market for 3 or 4 - or however many superhero-themed games which add up to more than one. But, egos....
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I see it like this...
City of Villains is mine. What's on my hard drive is mine. What's on my shelf is mine. If it ever was theirs, they have abandoned it to me. Evidence of this is the fact that they never bothered to come and pick it up, or pay me to store it for them.
And I'll make use of what is mine, just like I'll make use of an old Ford, when Ford no longer makes parts for it.
I agree with this.
I bought CoH. I bought CoV. I bought Praetoria. I paid for 8 yrs of NCSoft to allow me to access those games on their servers. They shut down their servers and stopped serving the games I bought. If someone else wants to fire up a server and host the games I bought, then how is that illegal?
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I agree with this.
I bought CoH. I bought CoV. I bought Praetoria. I paid for 8 yrs of NCSoft to allow me to access those games on their servers. They shut down their servers and stopped serving the games I bought. If someone else wants to fire up a server and host the games I bought, then how is that illegal?
Even if it is, see me not giving a damn. See also my previous video response in this thread to the "threat" of NCSoft. :)
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In fact, in fact!! I view NCSoft as haven STOLEN from ME. They took my six year's worth of cash, which included a lot of extras such as costume stuff - and uncounted hours spent playing and upgrading my characters, and... they just took it, with no recourse at all, and definitely no compensation. I view this as a theft!
Their smarmy little "so long, all of you mean so much to us and we love this game too hahahaha" did nothing to mitigate my rage. In fact I think it made it worse.
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In fact, in fact!! I view NCSoft as haven STOLEN from ME. They took my six year's worth of cash, which included a lot of extras such as costume stuff - and uncounted hours spent playing and upgrading my characters, and... they just took it, with no recourse at all, and definitely no compensation. I view this as a theft!
Their smarmy little "so long, all of you mean so much to us and we love this game too hahahaha" did nothing to mitigate my rage. In fact I think it made it worse.
Every time I see that ridiculous write-up they put on the cityofheroes.com page, I'm immediately enraged.
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In fact, in fact!! I view NCSoft as haven STOLEN from ME. They took my six year's worth of cash, which included a lot of extras such as costume stuff - and uncounted hours spent playing and upgrading my characters, and... they just took it, with no recourse at all, and definitely no compensation. I view this as a theft!
Now, wait a second, let's be fair here.
No one is STEALING from you the time that you spent playing a game for your enjoyment. So saying that they took your hours spent playing... frankly, it would be fair to say that they gave you hours of enjoyment playing, in return for your money.
Took your cash, true. I always viewed it as part of my entertainment budget for the month, and money well spent for the entertainment value. But unless there is a claim to be made for the characters having inherent value from existing, rather than for the enjoyment of playing them, it's not like we really built up much value into our characters... personal value, granted, but that's not of relevance to others or to a company.
They took away our hobby/interest/pastime/whatever, despite it being profitable. And since they've made money on the IP overall including development costs, they could sell it without opening up questions of giving in to someone pressuring them for IP based on its losses. So I don't see a reasonable argument for them not to sell the IP (sooner, so that it doesn't lose much value, but still with a reasonable timeframe so that they can recoup losses).
But for all of the wrong that they've done the community, I don't see how we can reasonably classify this as any kind of theft.
Now, if you just want to be unreasonable, well, that's fine. Don't let my interjection slow down the ranting :D
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They took away something that I was paying cash for. I view it as theft. I was not compensated for said removal. It was all: "We're taking it." And then they followed through and actually took it.
Virtual properties holding real-world value is an idea that is gaining traction, as mentioned earlier in the thread.
But unless there is a claim to be made for the characters having inherent value from existing, rather than for the enjoyment of playing them, it's not like we really built up much value into our characters... personal value, granted, but that's not of relevance to others or to a company.
Yep, there is indeed a claim to be made. I did build up value to them, not to mention they "died" holding literally billions in Influence. And tens of millions more in uncrafted recipies and salvage. Lets see: my main had about 880 hours on him when he died. 880 hours x $10.00/hr [A LOWBALL FIGURE BTW, I value my time] = my main being worth a MINIMUM of $8,800.00 and that is not counting my influence and other drops he was carrying.
That's just my main. I was running about 35 characters total.
I hope NCIdiocracy realizes exactly what they've done - I doubt they do, but I hope they think about - the megalithic LACK OF TRUST in the MMO industry that they have helped to create. Tens of thousands of gamers are now out there thinking "O HELL NO!" when considering forming an attachment to another MMO. I wont be forming any until I finally see one I like, that has a kill-switch clause in it stating "if we kill it, we're releasing the code to the developers and Godspeed. Love you guys and it was a good run, thanks for your business." On this I am very clear. My trust will be earned.
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You know what I miss, is rolling a new hero and killing a few Hellions for Azuria's first mission, then you ran across Atlas to the Hellion's Firey Warehouse O'Doom mish. That was a fun mish and a great map. Or if you were a villain, you went and talked to Kalinda, and then you ran out the front gate of Fort Darwin. And the Fort Darwin music kicked in.... and you ran halfway across the map to go kill you some Snakes.
"...but Boss! Surely they will resent our intrusion...!"
I just miss it. :'(
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Yep, there is indeed a claim to be made. I did build up value to them, not to mention they "died" holding literally billions in Influence.
Also to keep in mind, in spite of what a lot of capitalistic apologists will say about it, Money is not the only way to invest in something. Time is equally important. If one were to ever convert the amount of time a single player invests into an MMO into a salary, the cost would be staggering. Someone did this type of calculation once for WoW, and estimated that if looked at as a corporation, it's players have already done more hours of "work" than the employees in any corporation ever in existence. That's a big number.
Hobbies are investments, whether we expect to earn back money from it or not. The idea that someone can just barge in at any moment and say, "You're not allowed to have this hobby anymore" is very new, and has only ever applied to virtual items. Not just gaming either, but all forms of entertainment. Sadly, if Apple, or Sony, or BMG, etc decided tomorrow that they wanted us to pay a monthly license for every MP3 we have legitimately bought, they probably could, and get away with it. I haven't bothered to dig into the licenses for these kind of things, but chances are, the "We can change it whenever we want" clause is probably in there. They could also probably expire the license and make us buy them again, or get rid of personal ownership altogether and tell us we can only hear this music if we go to an officially licensed "entertainment center" (a Sony Night Club, if you will). Or, they could cut the cord completely and decide nobody should listen to it again, ever (no reason they'd ever do that, but if they wanted to they probably could). The entertainment giants have been living in a fantasy bubble for years, where they can literally remake moral reality whenever it is in their best interests. Everyone used to complain that Microsoft did this (ex: the "make darkness the new standard" joke), but just about every big company that deals in virtual merchandise is guilty of the same thing.
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You know what I miss, is rolling a new hero and killing a few Hellions for Azuria's first mission, then you ran across Atlas to the Hellion's Firey Warehouse O'Doom mish. That was a fun mish and a great map. Or if you were a villain, you went and talked to Kalinda, and then you ran out the front gate of Fort Darwin. And the Fort Darwin music kicked in.... and you ran halfway across the map to go kill you some Snakes.
"...but Boss! Surely they will resent our intrusion...!"
I just miss it. :'(
Me too...It felt good to roll out new toons now and then just to go thru those missions on both sides.
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Agreed Slim, it was just an EXCITING feeling to roll one out and wonder: "Will I fall in love with this one?" knowing the next few hours would be the deciding factor. [fall in love = be interested and excited enough to invest my time in getting this character to 50.] Sometimes it happened, sometimes it didnt.... some costumes and names seemed truly to be jinxed.... but it was always fun to find out.
I would happily run aaaalllllllllllllllllllll the way across Mercy again, over to that special "eliminate the Infected" warehouse yet again, if only I could. That mission used to bore the whatever out of me, now I would run it all day every day.
So, yeah. Get busy, SEGs people. 8)
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Tim: Sadly, if Apple, or Sony, or BMG, etc decided tomorrow that they wanted us to pay a monthly license for every MP3 we have legitimately bought, they probably could, and get away with it. I haven't bothered to dig into the licenses for these kind of things, but chances are, the "We can change it whenever we want" clause is probably in there. They could also probably expire the license and make us buy them again, or get rid of personal ownership altogether and tell us we can only hear this music if we go to an officially licensed "entertainment center" (a Sony Night Club, if you will). Or, they could cut the cord completely and decide nobody should listen to it again, ever (no reason they'd ever do that, but if they wanted to they probably could). The entertainment giants have been living in a fantasy bubble for years, where they can literally remake moral reality whenever it is in their best interests. Everyone used to complain that Microsoft did this (ex: the "make darkness the new standard" joke), but just about every big company that deals in virtual merchandise is guilty of the same thing.
There is truly no limit to corporate stupidity, so indeed it could happen. BUT.... the last time the music industry got too greedy, that is when we began seeing the rise of pirating. People will only put up with so much, then they start considering revenge.
Like us, right now sorta. :P
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So does this mean we shouldn't buy/save things on 'clouds'? What if Amazon or Apple decided they didn't want to host/store your purchases... songs, pictures, videos, documents, etc. Stuff you bought. Stuff you created. Stuff you paid monthly fees (like Amazon Prime) for. You think they could just pull the plug whenever they wanted and all that stuff would no longer be yours? That you could never use it again?
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So does this mean we shouldn't buy/save things on 'clouds'? What if Amazon or Apple decided they didn't want to host/store your purchases... songs, pictures, videos, documents, etc. Stuff you bought. Stuff you created. Stuff you paid monthly fees (like Amazon Prime) for. You think they could just pull the plug whenever they wanted and all that stuff would no longer be yours? That you could never use it again?
Unless of course, you had acquired, say, a "Kindle Cracker," able to convert Kindle files on your PC into unencrypted text files, then your Kindle books would be yours to read even if Amazon suddenly went out of business tomorrow.
Hypothetically speaking.
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So does this mean we shouldn't buy/save things on 'clouds'? What if Amazon or Apple decided they didn't want to host/store your purchases... songs, pictures, videos, documents, etc. Stuff you bought. Stuff you created. Stuff you paid monthly fees (like Amazon Prime) for. You think they could just pull the plug whenever they wanted and all that stuff would no longer be yours? That you could never use it again?
Yes indeed I do think that, that is why you will never find me storing stuff on a "cloud." IIRC, a few years ago there was a huge flap when Amazon pulled Kindle access to a book people had paid for. People were livid.
Corporations do not have you, the consumer's best interest in mind. EVER. They're going to do what they want and be damned to the hindenmost. So yeah, back up your stuff. At your house.
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I would happily run aaaalllllllllllllllllllll the way across Mercy again, over to that special "eliminate the Infected" warehouse yet again, if only I could. That mission used to bore the whatever out of me, now I would run it all day every day.
So, yeah. Get busy, SEGs people. 8)
This, absolutely...I'm all in on SEGS currently. I just can't seem to login. Up until that everything went fine. I'll keep trying.
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Yes indeed I do think that, that is why you will never find me storing stuff on a "cloud." IIRC, a few years ago there was a huge flap when Amazon pulled Kindle access to a book people had paid for. People were livid.
Corporations do not have you, the consumer's best interest in mind. EVER. They're going to do what they want and be damned to the hindenmost. So yeah, back up your stuff. At your house.
Yep... I never, EVER use cloud drives. Though sadly, I've actually wondered if one day we'll even have the option of local storage of ANYTHING. Clouds have been pushed on us really hard and I've been wary of it from the beginning. Seems like it's just another layer of control being force-fed to us with a spoonful of sugary benefits.
Another major hiccup was when Megaupload got forcefully taken down by the FBI. Granted that's different from a company shutting its own service down, but the amount of damage dealt to users was catastrophic.
I had multiple backups of CoH when the servers were shutdown, just in case they decided to give the NC launcher some naughty ideas about deleting the install folder without my permission.
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Just a little tidbit before bedtime :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I)
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This, absolutely...I'm all in on SEGS currently. I just can't seem to login. Up until that everything went fine. I'll keep trying.
Wait, if they start at issue 4 there wont be any CoV anyways.
All-righty then. I will just be running that Firey Warehouse O'Doom Hellions mish a million times. I can wait for Mercy.
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Just a little tidbit before bedtime :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I)
And it's even MY Atlas. (I was never really happy with the upgrade) Go SEGS go!
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Just a little tidbit before bedtime :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I)
LOOK AT IT PEOPLE JUST LOOOOOOOOK *tears come to my eyes*
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Just a little tidbit before bedtime :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I)
That doesn't even show -all- the progress.
Going to the I.D. screen, then backing to the powers menu and out gives you your powers in your tray.
You can then use commands to hit level 50 (/levelup 50) and train (/level) up with powers randomly assigned.
You can't use any powers, but apparently we've got confirmation that trying to use TP foe gives the system message that nothing is targeted.
This is even a lot further than even a week ago.
GJ SEGS
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That doesn't even show -all- the progress.
Going to the I.D. screen, then backing to the powers menu and out gives you your powers in your tray.
You can then use commands to hit level 50 (/levelup 50) and train (/level) up with powers randomly assigned.
You can't use any powers, but apparently we've got confirmation that trying to use TP foe gives the system message that nothing is targeted.
This is even a lot further than even a week ago.
GJ SEGS
Has anyone tried to use that program-editor which enables ICON to work on this, to see if something could be done to further improve things by tweaking the actual game code?
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Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?
What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?
Yes, you emotionally invested in the game. However, you spent time and money on it. The time you spent was rewarded with the enjoyment you got for spending it, as was the money. There's some legitimate complaint that they sprang the announcement right after releasing a new power set people dumped money on, but that's about it, in terms of "theft."
Was it idiotic to kill a goose that was laying golden eggs in the form of so passionately devoted a fan base as yourselves? One willing to spend time and money on the product as long as it was offered? Oh yes. Very stupid of them.
But it wasn't theft. The only thing you might have claim on is that they've rendered your property - your copy of the game - useless. And even that's not entirely so; the projects to reverse-engineer the server to enable you to activate and use your game code, to use the costume creator, are all legal because all they do is provide the platform to run your property, and they don't utilize any of NCSoft's proprietary "stuff" on their end.
So no, this isn't stealing from you. It's a jerkish thing to do. It was a mistake from a business standpoint. But it wasn't stealing in a legal, ethical, or moral sense. And hyping ourselves into a frenzy over the idea that it was can only hurt us as a movement.
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Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?
What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?
Yes, you emotionally invested in the game. However, you spent time and money on it. The time you spent was rewarded with the enjoyment you got for spending it, as was the money. There's some legitimate complaint that they sprang the announcement right after releasing a new power set people dumped money on, but that's about it, in terms of "theft."
Was it idiotic to kill a goose that was laying golden eggs in the form of so passionately devoted a fan base as yourselves? One willing to spend time and money on the product as long as it was offered? Oh yes. Very stupid of them.
But it wasn't theft. The only thing you might have claim on is that they've rendered your property - your copy of the game - useless. And even that's not entirely so; the projects to reverse-engineer the server to enable you to activate and use your game code, to use the costume creator, are all legal because all they do is provide the platform to run your property, and they don't utilize any of NCSoft's proprietary "stuff" on their end.
So no, this isn't stealing from you. It's a jerkish thing to do. It was a mistake from a business standpoint. But it wasn't stealing in a legal, ethical, or moral sense. And hyping ourselves into a frenzy over the idea that it was can only hurt us as a movement.
hear hear.
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I can't really comment concretely on the legalities of these servers, other than to say that it is my good faith belief that any compatible server developed from reverse engineering efforts that does not use the City of Heroes intellectual property (art assets, names, places, etc.) would be legal.
Except, unfortunately, it would no longer be City of Heroes.
If NCSoft is going to send a cease and desist, they'll do it regardless of these token measures. And the existence of these measures are already a signal that the team working on the server can be bullied. It does nothing to the cards in NCSoft's hand, and these preemptive concessions are like blood in the water.
I'm not saying the community server is a bad idea. I think it's a great and wonderful idea. The dev team ought to be willing to see the game go live again, even if that means dissemination of the code, and they ought to be politely clear about that for any corporate lawyers who are listening. You can't know how a publisher will behave; but you can know how you'll behave, and let it hang in the wind for anyone to see.
But stripping it of everything that characterizes the City of Heroes universe and back story will be another painful reminder for fans of the world that they've lost; and to add insult to injury in the worst case scenario, it would offer no legal protection anyway. The Freedom Phalanx, Wyvern, Longbow, Freakshow, the Fifth Column, the Menders, the Midnighters, Lord Recluse, the Praetorian War, the Coming Storm, Paragon City, the Rogue Isles, all of it will still be vanished and unresolved forever.
I am a fan of the world and universe and continuity that Paragon Studios built, not just of the great costume creator and collections of stats and game mechanics.
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Er, Captain Electric, the server didn't have all that stuff on it. Your client does. The server enables you to use your client. The server is what is being reverse-engineered.
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While you're correct, that is not at all what Tony is talking about. He is talking about the effort in whole, wherein a significant amount of the IP is planned to be removed from the play experience; as you know, the server dictates what the player sees and has access to within the game, regardless of the contents of the client. This should come as no surprise to anyone. Tony has brought it up several times over the past few months and in almost every status update.
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That video is great. It gives me lots of hope. I wish I had the skills to help because I have lots of free time in the evenings. And Oh, I smiled the whole time. That is so awesome!!!! Go, SEGS, Go!!!!!
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Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?
What contributions have we made to Disney World or Six Flags? Did you have to level up to get access to Thunder Mountain? Is your pin collection sitting in a little alcove at the Castle, waiting to be demolished?
What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?
No, but there's these portable media storage things now. They go into a little machine that some people like to call home theater.
That's essentially what SEGS is. The result of a movie theater discontinuing a film, and getting the DVD to watch at home. But at any moment, NCsoft can throw a temper tantrum, tell us we're not allowed to have it, and start launching legal missiles.
And... don't even bother trying to bicker over the technical definition of "steal." I don't think anyone even said "steal." But now that we've opened that box, NCsoft would classify SEGS as stealing, even though nothing got stolen. So if we're not allowed to call it stealing when it isn't, then they're not either. Right? RIGHT? :P
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What contributions have we made to Disney World or Six Flags? Did you have to level up to get access to Thunder Mountain? Is your pin collection sitting in a little alcove at the Castle, waiting to be demolished?
Some might argue that waiting in line for a few hours qualifies as "leveling up," or at least "grind." And if you're really pining over the badges rather than the ability to wear them on display in the game, then you still have them in your Sentinel+ extractor. But that's not really the point, as your last paragraph indicates you're responding because you think I'm telling you not to be upset rather than specifically addressing what I was responding to:
And... don't even bother trying to bicker over the technical definition of "steal." I don't think anyone even said "steal." But now that we've opened that box, NCsoft would classify SEGS as stealing, even though nothing got stolen.
I was explicitly responding to about a page worth of posts where people were saying "NCSoft has STOLEN from me" with "STOLEN" literally in all caps.
Go ahead and be upset. Just don't make hyperbolic claims of criminally immoral activity. Whether it was moral or ethical or not, it wasn't illegal, and stealing IS illegal. It wasn't legalize theft, even, philosophically; they have discontinued a service, not taken property from you that you own.
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NCsoft would classify SEGS as stealing, even though nothing got stolen. So if we're not allowed to call it stealing when it isn't, then they're not either. Right? RIGHT? :P
Since no NCSoft IP is being used in developing it, and none is being provided to people through it (save what they bought and paid for the privilege to use, and are accessing through their own property, just using SEGS as a place to view it), no, NCSoft cannot call it "stealing." They might try, if they're feeling dickish enough, but they will likely fail.
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Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?
Nope, because I did not spend thousands of hours leveling up to get in there. I paid a one-time fee for a one-time experience and that is what I got, and was expected.
What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?
I don't NEED to go back to the theatre, because the movie studio kindly sells me a little copy on a disk that I can keep at my house forever. I can watch it anytime I want. I in fact PREFER to watch movies at my house.
So no, this isn't stealing from you. It's a jerkish thing to do. It was a mistake from a business standpoint. But it wasn't stealing in a legal, ethical, or moral sense. And hyping ourselves into a frenzy over the idea that it was can only hurt us as a movement.
I dont see it as hyping ourselves into a frenzy; I see it as a realization that MMORPGs are a dangerous way to spend one's time - because all your work can vanish in a moment. I cant speak for others; but this realization has had a vastly chilling effect on my entertainment behavior. I have not logged in to GW2 in weeks. Every time I do I cannot enjoy the game, becasue I know the Idiocracy could pull the plug anytime. Once bitten.
So I dont enjoy my time there; I just log into Colonial Marines instead. I am new to the FPS style of gameplay and am having to learn how to actually AIM, and how not to lose my cool when multiple targets are closing on me. Its harder than it sounds.... and I dont have to think about CoX as I struggle to become proficient. At which point I will tackle the Dead Space series, which looks even more nerve-wracking. I am trying to not lets my skills, such as they are rust while I wait for SEGs and Plan Z.
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Some might argue that waiting in line for a few hours qualifies as "leveling up," or at least "grind." And if you're really pining over the badges rather than the ability to wear them on display in the game, then you still have them in your Sentinel+ extractor. But that's not really the point, as your last paragraph indicates you're responding because you think I'm telling you not to be upset rather than specifically addressing what I was responding to:I was explicitly responding to about a page worth of posts where people were saying "NCSoft has STOLEN from me" with "STOLEN" literally in all caps.
Go ahead and be upset. Just don't make hyperbolic claims of criminally immoral activity. Whether it was moral or ethical or not, it wasn't illegal, and stealing IS illegal. It wasn't legalize theft, even, philosophically; they have discontinued a service, not taken property from you that you own.
Sorry. Nothing was quoted, and we'd kinda moved on to the more general media EULA discussion, so I could only assume that's what it was in response to.
Frankly, I'm very thankful for the Sentinel. Even in its encrypted format, it's almost a spiritual-ish comfort that I still possess the data in some form.
And yeah, it wasn't theft. Usually when it comes to what is LEGALLY considered stealing though, I'll refer to it as theft. Legal "Stealing" happens everywhere, every day.
Since no NCSoft IP is being used in developing it, and none is being provided to people through it (save what they bought and paid for the privilege to use, and are accessing through their own property, just using SEGS as a place to view it), no, NCSoft cannot call it "stealing." They might try, if they're feeling dickish enough, but they will likely fail.
Well, maybe. Depends on if the issue turned into a trial. I don't know what it's like elsewhere, but in America, at least, before any lawyers start giving their side of the story, the difference between guilty and innocent is whether or not you can afford to even get into the courtroom to defend yourself. In any David vs. Goliath case (which a gamer or gamers vs. NCsoft surely would be) Goliath usually wins. They can financially run you dry before anyone has even made an opening statement.
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Go ahead and be upset. Just don't make hyperbolic claims of criminally immoral activity. Whether it was moral or ethical or not, it wasn't illegal, and stealing IS illegal. It wasn't legalize theft, even, philosophically; they have discontinued a service, not taken property from you that you own.
Um, they did indeed take my characters away from me... including my main who as I detailed earlier in the thread, is worth $8800+ to me.
If this stuff was not worth real-world cash, we would not have had people selling their accounts on eBay. Our characters are real-world assets.
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All this does bring a point that I think we need to spread across the net in a better way. Stop painting NCsoft as cartoonishly evil, they made a business decision. Companies make those right and wrong everyday. What we need to be discussing is the idea of mortality NCsoft has made very apparent to the MMO industry.
Even if your game is doing well it can be taken from you as quickly as a company wants to "refocus". All your time, all your money spent in the cash shop, all of it can be instantly gone. No other game medium has experienced this before and its time MMO players and developers start talking about it. As the "cash shop" business model has become standard, how can we be asked to invest so much into your game with no guarantee you'll keep it running for us?
This is something I think could get some traction. Get some articles written on some high profile sites discussing this topic. This could bring us back into the light without looking like spoiled, spurned gamers screaming "WE HAET NCSTUPID".
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This is something I think could get some traction. Get some articles written on some high profile sites discussing this topic. This could bring us back into the light without looking like spoiled, spurned gamers screaming "WE HAET NCSTUPID".
There's been some discussion about this before. The only reason I think it hasn't taken off yet is there's still a CoH campaign happening and we didn't want to spread ourselves too thin. But yeah, I certainly think we can make a strong case that some kind of legal 'code of ethics' needs to be put in place. The concept of property is in a shambles right now thanks to the digital world, and giving EULA's to people for every tiny thing they purchase is utterly ridiculous. We seem to have entered a world where nothing is ever owned, only rented/borrowed.
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Guys, come on. Are you going to claim that Six Flags or Disney World "stole" your time and money just because you can't go back into them any time you want without paying them more? If they closed tomorrow, would you claim they had "stolen" the time and money you'd spent to go to either in the past?
What about movie theaters; are they stealing from you because you can't go back in and watch the movie again?
Yes, you emotionally invested in the game. However, you spent time and money on it. The time you spent was rewarded with the enjoyment you got for spending it, as was the money. There's some legitimate complaint that they sprang the announcement right after releasing a new power set people dumped money on, but that's about it, in terms of "theft."
Was it idiotic to kill a goose that was laying golden eggs in the form of so passionately devoted a fan base as yourselves? One willing to spend time and money on the product as long as it was offered? Oh yes. Very stupid of them.
But it wasn't theft. The only thing you might have claim on is that they've rendered your property - your copy of the game - useless. And even that's not entirely so; the projects to reverse-engineer the server to enable you to activate and use your game code, to use the costume creator, are all legal because all they do is provide the platform to run your property, and they don't utilize any of NCSoft's proprietary "stuff" on their end.
So no, this isn't stealing from you. It's a jerkish thing to do. It was a mistake from a business standpoint. But it wasn't stealing in a legal, ethical, or moral sense. And hyping ourselves into a frenzy over the idea that it was can only hurt us as a movement.
The examples provided flaw your logic.
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Severely.
Purchasing 3 box sets with DVDs storing game code doesn't equate to buying a movie. It's like buying an ebook and then Amazon shuts down the Kindle and says I can't read my ebook on another eReader. Or like purchasing a digital copy of a movie and then Apple discontinues the iPad and says I can't watch on another tablet.
That would never happen in those industries so why is it okay for an MMO company to do the same thing?
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Severely.
Purchasing 3 box sets with DVDs storing game code doesn't equate to buying a movie. It's like buying an ebook and then Amazon shuts down the Kindle and says I can't read my ebook on another eReader. Or like purchasing a digital copy of a movie and then Apple discontinues the iPad and says I can't watch on another tablet.
That would never happen in those industries so why is it okay for an MMO company to do the same thing?
Those are still not very good. More like buying an ebook from Amazon that requires proprietary Amazon access to read, then Amazon shuts down their ebook access. Since it's proprietary software, you can't read it elsewhere but someone might be able to reverse engineer the ability to read it with the original access (or a facsimile thereof).
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I'm separating the purchase of the disks (hypothetical ebooks) from the monthly fee to access servers (your proprietary ereader platform). Shutting down the server (platform) shouldn't prevent me from playing my disks (books). I believe that to be illegal.
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Er, Captain Electric, the server didn't have all that stuff on it. Your client does. The server enables you to use your client. The server is what is being reverse-engineered.
Actually, all the client had was basically the art assets and animations. Mission design, story arcs, all of the writing and dialogue were hosted on the servers. Hell, the entire combat engine, including PC and NPC stats, mob AI, and everything else was handled by the server.
i really applaud the effort being put into the server emulator; even more so since such a Herculean task is being done mostly by one person. All the more so since the really hard work will be rebuilding the combat engine and mob AI from scratch. Although that does leave open the possibility of putting together a more balanced combat system. Also that means you're not limited to content predating Issue 3 since you could hypothetically recreate any content that doesn't require assets the Issue 3 client can't support.
Unless i'm misunderstanding what SEGS is based on. Without actual server code it's a bunch of information on how to communicate with the client, but no access to the actual combat engine and game data. However, there is a lot of information on how the combat system worked and the wiki has mission text and descriptions which should make recreating it easier.
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Yep, there were a lot of things on the server that are normally contained by the client in MMOs. But again, like I said above, what Tony was talking about in the part that I quoted isn't really about the client or the server specifically. It's about significant aspects of the IP, wherever those aspects are contained. Tony has brought this up several times since the end of 2012--the party working on the Issue 23/24 community server (not SEGS) will be stripping the game world/play experience of a significant amount of location names, NPCs, art assets and so on. Pretty much anything and everything that the IP was known for. Although many of these files may be located in the client, that doesn't mean they'll be used; on the contrary, you'll never see characters like Positron or villain groups like Arachnos on the community server. The motivation is to avoid IP infringement, and smacks of a decision made by someone who only felt emotionally invested in stats and game mechanics, but the end result will be the removal of almost everything many of us remember and love about the game universe. I've brought up my concern over this in every single status update thread since October I think, and I sent Tony and other parties a couple of long screeds in PMs; because out of the many people I've spoken to about it over the last few months, I haven't spoken to a single fan of the game who is happy about it. It's going to be turned into a game world that dimly reminds us of the game world we lost, inaccessible and filled with unresolved story arcs.
I admire the people involved in this for all their work and just for who they are, and I consider us all on the same team; but on this particular point, I am a fan of the work that Paragon Studios put into the City of Heroes universe, and I am not a happy camper about this and haven't been since October or November. You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.
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You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.
I'm sorry sir, but wouldn't the real heart of City of Heroes be it's community ?
And usually servers like SEGS are made in such a way as to allow anyone to recreate ( or not. ) the original experience with highest fidelity possible. So the new body that the community would live in, would be as close to it's original, as close the community would wish it to be :)
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Yep, there were a lot of things on the server that are normally contained by the client in MMOs. But again, like I said above, what Tony was talking about in the part that I quoted isn't really about the client or the server specifically. It's about significant aspects of the IP, wherever those aspects are contained. Tony has brought this up several times since the end of 2012--the party working on the Issue 23/24 community server (not SEGS) will be stripping the game world/play experience of a significant amount of location names, NPCs, art assets and so on. Pretty much anything and everything that the IP was known for. Although many of these files may be located in the client, that doesn't mean they'll be used; on the contrary, you'll never see characters like Positron or villain groups like Arachnos on the community server. The motivation is to avoid IP infringement, and smacks of a decision made by someone who only felt emotionally invested in stats and game mechanics, but the end result will be the removal of almost everything many of us remember and love about the game universe. I've brought up my concern over this in every single status update thread since October I think, and I sent Tony and other parties a couple of long screeds in PMs; because out of the many people I've spoken to about it over the last few months, I haven't spoken to a single fan of the game who is happy about it. It's going to be turned into a game world that dimly reminds us of the game world we lost, inaccessible and filled with unresolved story arcs.
I admire the people involved in this for all their work and just for who they are, and I consider us all on the same team; but on this particular point, I am a fan of the work that Paragon Studios put into the City of Heroes universe, and I am not a happy camper about this and haven't been since October or November. You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.
I beg to differ. You could take all of the locations and group names and slap them onto the CO engine and it would just be a mockery of Paragon City.
City of Heroes was more than just locations, villains, Heroes, and the occasional PPD officer running around flailing his arms. The game mechanics were also important. They determined how you interacted with the previously mentioned locations, villains, heroes, and PPD officers. If the dialog and back stories are done well, the new server could be just a continuation of the fight against villainy, hero-y, and PPD officers not getting their acts together. Yes, they can not use the Villain/Hero groups or characters from the City of Heroes IP. But, they can give the game the same feel. And that feel is what is important. Not the names we give the locations, villain/hero groups and NPCs.
My personal opinion would be to create a totally new city that has Heroes with different personalities than the Freedom Phalanx (as an example). Don't try to just change the name and call it good. Make it a different story all together. But make it a sequel.
However, that calls for much more work than just making a server that can run the client.
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Well I guess I've found some people who are okay way this.
I'll tell you what this feels like to a fan of the fiction and game universe, and to a fan of the writers who worked their asses off for a decade at Cryptic and Paragon Studios to come up with all of the content: it's probably like if you'd bought Marvel Comics (of which I'm also a long-time fan) and informed me that you were planning to just replace every major character and storyline with a bunch of fan-made crap. "It's still going to be hero-y".
And, in fact, it would be. It often was, in Mission Architect and all the fan-made comics I read. But that doesn't mean one ought to exist to exclude the other. There's no benefit in doing this to the community server (again, I am not referencing SEGS). We have two great fan-made games in development. There's no good reason to gut the IP from the community server. It won't stop NCSoft from sending a cease and desist if that's what they want to do. This is because all of this will be taking place in a legal gray area. EULAs aren't the law and cease and desists aren't federal documents, they're written by corporate lawyers who can write anything they want to. Why do you think people call it legal bullying?
You're never going to see me smile about this. We still won't have Paragon City back. It's an unnecessary sacrifice. However, I'm glad that it doesn't affect you--no sarcasm. No harm in a little disagreement.
In fact I agree with the poster above you that my word choice ("heart") is something that should instead be applied to the community. Right on to that. Fully agree.
But unfortunately, my friends and I role-played in City of Heroes partly for each others company and storylines, and partly for the game's storylines and overall continuity. We entangled our own characters and storylines with those of the many story arcs that defined Primal Earth, Praetoria and beyond. We made ourselves part of it. We were fans of the fiction. I read every Blue King and Top Cow/Image comic and both novels. Oh yeah--and I read all of my mission text. If all you saw were generic villains and heroes and PPD officers flailing their arms around, then you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. Maybe it just didn't do it for you. Well, OK. I'm not saying you're somehow awful for not appreciating what I was a big fan of.
But, man oh man, if anyone from Paragon Studios happens to read this thread, especially any of the writers and other mission designers--your work wasn't wasted. You had fans. Big fans. They might have moved on to other games and forums, they may or may not show up here to back me up. But there were times when I logged in and played with them almost every night!
We were there.
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I'm with Captain Electric here. I'm a big fan of the stories and content. If all the elements IP, Characters, stories, aren't there then it's a Frankenstein Version of CoH. If it can't be brought back 100% then it's not back. Better to let it Rest in Peace then to have a hollowed out shell.
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I'd have to agree as well on this. We can't turn the game we loved into a husk and expect to still enjoy it. The content and stories, the characters and plots. All of that is what helped make CoH the best superhero MMO ever. We may enjoy the gutted game for a time, but I don't think it would ever feel right.
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Wait a minute. I'm not saying that they should make a Zombie CoH. That is, in effect, what just slapping a new name and character model on the existing NPCs and groups would be doing. I'm saying they need to make a whole new city, with a different story. It's like reading the sequel to a book that you love.
Just so you know, I am a huge fan of the Devs that worked long and hard for our entertainment. I enjoyed the story arcs. I read all the mission text as well. I had characters whose backgrounds were specifically inspired and designed around Paragon City, the Rogue Isles, and Pretoria. Trust me, I do appreciate what you're a fan of. But, I'm looking at the community server as a place that my Heroes could have found as a refuge from the destruction of Paragon City. It would give me a chance to play my Heroes again. Hopefully, with new stories and locations to discover. A sequel. And, if CoH ever gets released from the death-grip that NCSoft seems to have it in, there is no reason that the two games couldn't exist side-by-side. One does not have to be destroyed for the other to exist. That was why I suggested making a new and different city with different stories.
As I said before, City of Heroes was more than just the stories and characters. Part of it was also how you interacted with those stories and characters. The game mechanics. It all comes together as a whole to give the City its "feel". You won't get that same feeling by placing the stories and characters into a different game engine. The powers wouldn't work the same way, which would make the characters you've created feel wrong. I know this because I've tried it with a couple of other MMOs already. If the characters can function the same way they do in Paragon City, then those characters can fight crime anywhere and it won't feel weird playing those characters. And, if you're really into role-playing those characters, they can certainly miss Paragon City while defending the innocent elsewhere. That is what I'm trying to convey here.
But, I would really like to have the authentic City of Heroes back.
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They are not going to recreate an entirely new game world and new zones using the City of Heroes engine (although I wouldn't be surprised if you saw additional zones eventually). The reasons for this are numerous. For one thing, the amount of work that it would take would not be feasible. The amount of geographical content that could be created in any sort of time frame by volunteers would be a fraction of what the full-time dev team produced over the course of a decade. So you can expect that the community server will utilize zones that are already there, even if they're called different names.
Don't get me wrong, I think that over a longer period of time, something like your idea may be feasible, judging by some other MMO emulators in existence. If the server code ever became disseminated, you may see entirely new and original cities sprouting up. But it would be a tremendous amount of work, a real labor of love. This would be years farther along than it would take to launch a community server utilizing the client's current assets. It would be out there long after other free super hero MMOs had launched. Anyone working or playing in those servers will be a real die hard. Time will march on, other super hero games will release. If you're looking for a shiny new city, you won't be playing a 15 or 20 year-old game. (On the other hand, I can't tell the future, but I won't be surprised if I'm still playing City of Heroes on somebody's server in another 10 years--so maybe you can relate.)
Back to the present, and maybe more importantly, Paragon City was not destroyed. You ought not interpret NCSoft's closure of the game as some kind of canon event inside the game world. Paragon Studios were the authors of the canon, not their publisher. Paragon Studios had no intention to destroy Paragon City; although in future issues, the Battalion would have made an attempt. Now, if the Battalion ever arrived to rain destruction on Paragon City, it would be up to a volunteer community server team to write that content into the game. But they're not going to do it.
Wait a minute. I'm not saying that they should make a Zombie CoH. That is, in effect, what just slapping a new name and character model on the existing NPCs and groups would be doing.
Now we're on the same page.
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Crain Electric, you have summed up my sentiments exactly. Thank you.
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You're welcome, and also to the posters above who presumably relate to my disappointment about this.
Now I'm off to work, and then to play both the Neverwinter and Marvel Heroes betas through the weekend, so forgive me if my whining in this thread takes a dip in quantity or quality. ;)
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All of the dialogue and npc names are on the wiki. Cut - Copy - Paste that in once a functional server is ready. It will be a longer process but that's what mission designer volunteers are for.
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Noyjitat, the community server will actively avoid using all of that content. As Tony has stated since October at least, it will not be going into the game and will instead be replaced by fan-made content or just left out. I'd explain but I have to go. I hate to be one of those "read the thread types" but... ;D
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http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise27.html
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise26.html
http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise25.html
SEGS will be ok. Hopefully the legal stuff and nerves is assuaged for good with the infor above. Cant wait for finished product. I assume that SEGS work probably will be done prior to the other two projects? If so, play the old version for a bit until the new ones come around, and people have the choice between three (at least) different COX derived/inspired/based off of/sequel/any other title that ma be given to the project to choose from? Awesome. ;D
From what I gather, we all want to play some form of COX in one manner or another, some as COH was, some a derivative, some a sequel. If things go as planned, it would seemed there will be something for everyone eventually with no worries from being harasses by a bunch of people in tailored made suits with a briefcase full of paper.
"Choice is always a good thing especially compared to no choice." J.X
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Noyjitat, you (and a lot of people) are misunderstanding the problem.
The community server will actively avoid using all of that content. As Tony has stated since October at least, it will not be going into the game and will instead be replaced by fan-made content or just left out. I'd explain but I have to go. I hate to be one of those "read the thread types" but... ;D
Yeah I seen that too. Thus I have no idea really what to call it beyond community server what is the proper title of the work being done so when it does work, the methods can be given to people that is facing closure in other games and they wont have to lose their home entirely either without worries or negative things happening.
I'm becoming convinced that the work is safe, after some research of my own about the process as I thus far understand it and bit more at ease with giving it a try when it hits. My next step is protection from virus information, file corruption and usual mess up the computer or personal information vulnerability stuff but that is that journey that only I can seek out and complete. Yeah I wear a tin foil hat and a cape...and sometimes nothing else...but *ahem* yeah. But I dont forsee any issues but have to cover my bases.
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Yep, there were a lot of things on the server that are normally contained by the client in MMOs. But again, like I said above, what Tony was talking about in the part that I quoted isn't really about the client or the server specifically. It's about significant aspects of the IP, wherever those aspects are contained. Tony has brought this up several times since the end of 2012--the party working on the Issue 23/24 community server (not SEGS) will be stripping the game world/play experience of a significant amount of location names, NPCs, art assets and so on. Pretty much anything and everything that the IP was known for. Although many of these files may be located in the client, that doesn't mean they'll be used; on the contrary, you'll never see characters like Positron or villain groups like Arachnos on the community server. The motivation is to avoid IP infringement, and smacks of a decision made by someone who only felt emotionally invested in stats and game mechanics, but the end result will be the removal of almost everything many of us remember and love about the game universe. I've brought up my concern over this in every single status update thread since October I think, and I sent Tony and other parties a couple of long screeds in PMs; because out of the many people I've spoken to about it over the last few months, I haven't spoken to a single fan of the game who is happy about it. It's going to be turned into a game world that dimly reminds us of the game world we lost, inaccessible and filled with unresolved story arcs.
I admire the people involved in this for all their work and just for who they are, and I consider us all on the same team; but on this particular point, I am a fan of the work that Paragon Studios put into the City of Heroes universe, and I am not a happy camper about this and haven't been since October or November. You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.
Speaking personally? I am fine with that, and I would play it like crazy. Because while I did enjoy the CoH lore, the characters I cared deeply about and kept coming back to the game for weren't Paragon Studio's--they were mine. I created them, I expressed them in the game, and I want to continue with their stories. Those stories might be in different worlds...heck, a lot of them didn't start out in Paragon City to begin with...but they will keep going this way. And I think that's a tremendous improvement over what I've got now.
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Speaking personally? I am fine with that, and I would play it like crazy. Because while I did enjoy the CoH lore, the characters I cared deeply about and kept coming back to the game for weren't Paragon Studio's--they were mine. I created them, I expressed them in the game, and I want to continue with their stories. Those stories might be in different worlds...heck, a lot of them didn't start out in Paragon City to begin with...but they will keep going this way. And I think that's a tremendous improvement over what I've got now.
This. If we don't get the original CoH back, a community server with just names changed is still better than what we have now.-
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I am kinda looking forward to the SEGS community server. After playing COH for 8 years, it will be fun to play back "in the old days", so to speak. Until something else comes along, I will be totally happy with I3/4.
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I am kinda looking forward to the SEGS community server. After playing COH for 8 years, it will be fun to play back "in the old days", so to speak. Until something else comes along, I will be totally happy with I3/4.
That should be an awesome experience too. I started playing on I7 so I'm looking forward to roll a Fire/Ice tanker to herd a whole map, heck, I've even worked out a tentative build with no inherent fitness pool, SO enhancements and 6 slotted Stamina and Hasten ;D
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Anybody who works on an altertantive is better than what we have now. Personally, however, I think going in there and stripping the server of everything "IP" (art assets, etc.) is a stupid waste of time.
If NCsoft is going to care, such surface measures aren't going to stop them. And if they don't care, such measures only waste time and don't give the public what it wants.
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I thought SEGS was basically hacking into the stuff and turning on the lights again. From some comments, it would seem that isnt the case and have to replace the IP stuff. Although, then, isnt that what the other two projects are basically already doing?
How hard is it to gather the information of the original game, figure out the communication stuff and distribute it to the people? Not asking in snark or anything just really want to understand the processes that may be involved.
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I have written many guides for back at Issue 3/4 times and once it starts - I could write them again.
I have the fire tank build memorized. I even built a fire/ice tank with Heal self, heal others, rez and the fighting pool with acrobatics.
The big adjustments folks will have is the lack of knockback protection. However back in those days it was called City of Blasters for a reason. A fire/fire blaster can absolutely melt some groups into little puddles back then. The Banished had a slight glitch that had them with ZERO resisitance to fire. They could be slaughtered by the hundreds.
However no super-side kick and no AE. It will be a visit in the way back machine to when the world was new and glorious.
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I have written many guides for back at Issue 3/4 times and once it starts - I could write them again.
I have the fire tank build memorized. I even built a fire/ice tank with Heal self, heal others, rez and the fighting pool with acrobatics.
The big adjustments folks will have is the lack of knockback protection. However back in those days it was called City of Blasters for a reason. A fire/fire blaster can absolutely melt some groups into little puddles back then. The Banished had a slight glitch that had them with ZERO resisitance to fire. They could be slaughtered by the hundreds.
However no super-side kick and no AE. It will be a visit in the way back machine to when the world was new and glorious.
My first toon was a fire/fire blaster, way back in the day. I will be remaking her as soon as I can. I also understood that what was being built was us being able to play the game as it was in Issue 3/4. Am I mistaken?
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It's going to be turned into a game world that dimly reminds us of the game world we lost, inaccessible and filled with unresolved story arcs.
The practical situation is that NCsoft owns the intellectual property for City of Heroes. We have diligently tried to get them to transfer it to someone else who would take care of it, and they have yet to give us any indication that they're willing to do so. They've never done so in the past. At this point, it is highly likely that they will retain control over it indefinitely. We haven't given up on the prospect, there's a team specifically dedicated to that purpose and they're working hard to keep pounding away at it, but I want to set reasonable expectations. Things will never be the same as they were.
You just couldn't convince me that this is a respectful way for the community to honor and resurrect City of Heroes--by carving it out, tossing its heart aside and appropriating its shell.
That depends on what precisely you mean by "City of Heroes". It means different things to different people. To some people, it was a way to spend time with their friends, and some of them have moved on to other games. To them, their experience hasn't degraded that much; they're still spending time with their friends. To some, it's the story, characters, art, etc. Believe it or not, but some of them haven't been affected much, either. They no longer have the world in which to act out their stories, but nothing is stopping someone from writing stories about Positron or drawing their characters, as long as they're not doing it for profit. To some people, the story and lore of the game were largely irrelevant. They found the mechanics of the game to be fun and exciting. It really was about just going out there and beating Nazis up. Some of these people are able to find at least a large part of what made the game fun in other venues.
I'm not sure exactly how you want "the community" (please keep in mind that we're not just one monolithic hive mind) to honor City of Heroes. We have people working hard on creating (http://missingworldsmedia.com/) new games (http://heroes-and-villains.com/) that capture the essence of what made the game fun for those who enjoyed the mechanics entertaining. We have people working on reverse engineering the server (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,8011.0.html) to provide the exact experience mechanics-wise of playing the game. I know of at least one project working to go further. We have people still fighting their butts off (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/board,161.0.html) to get some other company to buy the IP and relaunch the game. We have people working to effect change through public relations (https://www.facebook.com/groups/BoycottNCSoft/). We still have people writing fan fiction and creating art based on City of Heroes characters. We have people still recognizing the heroic spirit (https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Paragon-Taxi-Service/262868630429764) of our community. We even have people committing financial resources (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7991.0.html) purely in the spirit of helping out members of our community. I mean, seriously, what else are we supposed to be doing?
I think that all of these efforts are honoring the game and its community in their own ways. Who am I, or who is anyone else, to judge which of these efforts is or isn't worthwhile? And I know that sometimes these various efforts will bicker among themselves; that's part of being a community of human beings and not, as I said, a monolithic hive mind. Various efforts will compete against each other for attention, and that's normal, expected, and fine by me. The only place I draw the line is when it comes to things like physical threats or intimidation, and stupid stuff like promoting racism.
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but the City of Heroes community, the Titan Network, and even the Save City of Heroes movements are not one-trick ponies. We're a pretty inclusive bunch of people who have various opinions on how best to honor the game and its community. We're not just about making NCsoft out to be cartoonishly evil, but we have those people and love 'em. We're not just about keeping players together, even if it's in playing other games, but we have those people and love 'em. We're not just about trying to get some other company to buy City of Heroes and relaunch the game, but we have those people and love 'em. We're not just about creating a new game that doesn't include any characters or places from City of Heroes, but we have those people and we love 'em. We're not just about reverse engineering the server within a spectrum of legally gray areas from pristine to a bit more murky, but we have those people and we love 'em.
I just really, really wish that people would stop trying to pigeonhole this community and the Titan Network and telling us what we should or shouldn't be about.
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I was under the impression that at least one server emulation project didn't care that NCSoft owned the IP. Frankly, I don't personally care that they own the IP either. The fact is I want to play City of Heroes. Not City of Knockoffs. If the server emulators aren't emulating City of Heroes, then they are a waste of time. Those people could be lending a hand to the Phoenix Project, which is better than emulating the server and ripping out the content. I just don't understand the merit of emulating the server if we don't get to play City of Heroes on it. What's the point?
I doubt NCSoft will take action, they didn't even care enough to make a serious effort to respond to us or our concerns. Besides, it's not like they'd get anywhere. They can shut down one server but all we need is character import/export so it can open up again at another address. Repeat indefinitely.
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I just don't understand the merit of emulating the server if we don't get to play City of Heroes on it. What's the point?
I direct you to this thread (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7288.0.html) and the excitement it generated because people were merely able to see their characters on the screen again. As I said and thought I expounded upon in great detail above, City of Heroes is different things to different people. Maybe you don't see the value in it, but please do not dismiss the value to others.
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I direct you to this thread (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,7288.0.html) and the excitement it generated because people were merely able to see their characters on the screen again. As I said and thought I expounded upon in great detail above, City of Heroes is different things to different people. Maybe you don't see the value in it, but please do not dismiss the value to others.
I'm not denying that there's excitement there. But a significant portion of the excitement comes from the fact that this shows some sort of hope for being able to play again.
The cold hard truth is that CoH will never be CoH without the same zones, stories, NPCs, etc. Even people that think they just miss the mechanics will discover that pretty quickly.
In any case, it's objectively a more valuable investment to build a new game entirely than to emulate the CoH server and put something there that isn't CoH. I'm not even sure who would be creating that. With all the people that are already at the Phoenix Project, who would be left to model all the new NPCs, map out all the new zones, and write all the new stories? Nemerle, by himself?
I just don't understand why anyone would want a CoH server without the CoH content instead of the Phoenix Project.
Not to mention it would feel like rolling over. I'm not done defying NCSoft, and letting the idea of drawing their attention intimidate us into not playing CoH again is sickening. Especially when it'd be relatively easy to avoid any ramifications at all.
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If the server emulators aren't emulating City of Heroes, then they are a waste of time.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the two are inexorably linked somehow.
Content = Cart
Server = Horse
At the moment we have neither, so producing one hardly involves "ripping out" anything.
If a contentless server can be created (in order to minimize the legal risk to its creators), and then put into the hands of people who can create content for it, regardless of what content that is, then what's the downside? I mean I doubt the server will be hardcoded to prevent you from naming an NPC "Statesman" if you want...
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You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the two are inexorably linked somehow.
Content = Cart
Server = Horse
Sooooo do we put the horse under the cart or in the cart? Or do we put the cart on top of the horse?
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Sooooo do we put the horse under the cart or in the cart? Or do we put the cart on top of the horse?
I think the cart goes in the stable and the horse in the kitchen.
but, however unlikely, I could be mistaken.
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Who do you love more, Ms Liberty (and I am a big proponent of Ms Liberty) or your characters?
If you cant have Libby to help you level up your character, will they still be your character?
Considering at the moment your only alternative is to play DCUO or CO and make a half-donkey'd attempt at recreating the character, I'd say either option espoused in this thread is much better.
I miss CoH so much right now. :(
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I'm just saying, if it's not going to be CoH then in what way is it better to wait for the server emulator and wait for the Phoenix Project? Why divide our resources across so many different projects? All it's doing is making them each take longer. The server emulators will probably take longer than the Phoenix Project at this stage if they aren't being used with the pre-existing CoH content. Especially if my assumption is correct and they have incredibly small teams working on them. You guys keep referencing new content that can be created for it. But who is going to make the content? I see no reason why we can't use the CoH content until such time as NCSoft sends a c&d at least. Maybe they don't send one and nothing has to get changed. Maybe they do and someone has to build a whole new game using the CoH tech. We have all these people running around saying to save our CoH data because server emulators are being made. If nobody is going to be using that CoH data, then the whole community is being fed false hope about these projects.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing to get the server code out there. You want to work on that, fine. But tell people exactly what you're doing. You're reverse engineering the server. Don't act like it brings the game back. It doesn't. It's a new game with identical mechanics.
If I'm not running around in Atlas Park fighting Hellions then it's not CoH, I don't care how similar the powersets are. Where does that leave me, and the others like me? Those of us that saved the game data? What do we do?
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As I understand SEGS, it really is City of Heroes. Just perhaps not at the issue level to which you are accustomed.
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I'm just saying, if it's not going to be CoH then in what way is it better to wait for the server emulator and wait for the Phoenix Project? Why divide our resources across so many different projects? All it's doing is making them each take longer. The server emulators will probably take longer than the Phoenix Project at this stage if they aren't being used with the pre-existing CoH content. Especially if my assumption is correct and they have incredibly small teams working on them. You guys keep referencing new content that can be created for it. But who is going to make the content? I see no reason why we can't use the CoH content until such time as NCSoft sends a c&d at least. Maybe they don't send one and nothing has to get changed. Maybe they do and someone has to build a whole new game using the CoH tech. We have all these people running around saying to save our CoH data because server emulators are being made. If nobody is going to be using that CoH data, then the whole community is being fed false hope about these projects.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing to get the server code out there. You want to work on that, fine. But tell people exactly what you're doing. You're reverse engineering the server. Don't act like it brings the game back. It doesn't. It's a new game with identical mechanics.
If I'm not running around in Atlas Park fighting Hellions then it's not CoH, I don't care how similar the powersets are. Where does that leave me, and the others like me? Those of us that saved the game data? What do we do?
There's still PlanZ
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I see no reason why we can't use the CoH content until such time as NCSoft sends a c&d at least.
Which then wipes out all our work and puts us back to square one.
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If I'm not running around in Atlas Park fighting Hellions then it's not CoH, I don't care how similar the powersets are. Where does that leave me, and the others like me? Those of us that saved the game data? What do we do?
Unfortunately all of our options will take time and yea it sucks not having the game, but I will take what is available right now. Let's see what comes next. I think SEGS will continue to progress and it is nice to go back in time a bit...I even forgot how simple the login screen looked back then. Yea, I want some Hellion action too, but remember we are all in on the ground floor of something special here with many different possible outcomes!!
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Which then wipes out all our work and out us back to square one.
I think it would be best to try and avoid purposely trying irk them to send a C&D if possible as GG is right. Although maybe they'll send it anyways but it's best for it to be baseless or have to put in work to prove than an easy sitting duck for them. It might end up where we are now except, a year or two in the future.
Then again maybe nothing will happen. I did post three links about laws of that nature and hope it clears some stuff up.
If it's the server stuff, should be good.
If it's direct copy of COH, might be gray area.
Then again there havent been one solid answer to what exactly are they doing. Some say it's just reverse engineering of the server and all IP will be taken out, some say it will be COH in earlier mode starting right up, some say it's not reverse engineering, and depending on what is actually going on of course have different risk levels.
But from the video that has been shown, it looks like COH early issue direct.
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There's still PlanZ
Which is my entire point. Why work on the server emulation if we already are going to have a new game anyway? Especially when we have a limited pool of experienced coders. The only point would be if it was going to be City of Heroes. If it's not going to be, then it's functionally identical to having a new game. Plan Z is already a new game. Thus we don't need non-CoH servers using CoH mechanics.
*Begin General Response*
As far as wiping out the work of server emulation...what work? If they send a c&d over the content, you change whatever you were going to change in the first place. It would be significantly less work to use the NCSoft property than to create an entirely separate IP on top of what's already being made for the Phoenix Project. Understand that I have no problem with the Phoenix Project. Quite frankly, it's the most exciting thing I've ever seen happen and I can't wait for it to succeed. Which is the source of my frustration. I don't understand this need to unnecessarily tear apart the game we loved to emulate some crap version of it while we wait. IF the people making the non-SEGS project (as I understand it, SEGS is using NCSoft property so far at least) are afraid to host a server using NCSoft content then let someone else do it. I can understand that. What I can't understand is packing up and telling us we have to just deal with it. What you are telling people is that you have the power to restore our game, but are choosing not to. Instead, you would dishonor it by removing large chunks.
Now, I think it's past time that the other server emulation project come out tell us what it is you're doing. If it's what it looks like, you have no reason to hide from NCSoft because you're not even going to try setting up a server using anything they technically own. If we as a community deserve anything, we deserve to know the truth of what's going on behind closed doors. Are you going to give us our game back as it was (I24 client), as it used to be (I3-4 client/SEGS I think), or not at all (some abomination that is but a shadow).
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I think it extremely unwise to dictate to other people what they "should" and "should not" do/reveal/contribute to. Demands never earn friends.
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I'm just saying, if it's not going to be CoH then in what way is it better to wait for the server emulator and wait for the Phoenix Project? Why divide our resources across so many different projects? All it's doing is making them each take longer. The server emulators will probably take longer than the Phoenix Project at this stage if they aren't being used with the pre-existing CoH content.
The server emulator will be CoH and won't be CoH. It's a matter of perspective, and it matters what CoH was to you personally. The emulator is CoH in it's early years. So while it is CoH, the fact that so much of it isn't actually there means that it doesn't appeal to some people, while appealing a lot to others.
The current emulator has the most progress than every other project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I
That being said, to some people that isn't progress at all, because that isn't the CoH they knew and probably never will be. There's no arguing with that either.
So with all this said, compared all the projects, SEGS has the most progress and the least progress. It's our best hope and to others, no hope.
Why are the resources split? People want different things. If you are right and we should put all of our resources together, where do we put them?
Isn't a coder much more valuable when they feel somewhat passionate about what they're working on and care much more about the results? (Mirroring what VV said above)
Is it really smart to put all our eggs in one basket? SEGS could receive a C&D letter tomorrow. The Phoenix Project could split again. TF Hail Mary could be in the works of selling the IP at this moment.
Considering how many people we have, I think we're very organized. There's 3-4 big projects, and one main forum for all of them (These boards).
(The argument you've made can also be said for the other side. "What are the Plan Z's doing splitting our resources, they should go help SEGS!". I'd rather people help where they want and where they are most useful)
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If a group of coders can put out a Star Wars emulator with John Williams's music, Stormtroopers, Han Solo and Darth Vader all in the game, and have neither Sony, nor Lucasarts, nor Disney say a word or do a thing to stop it, I honestly don't think leaving in the Rikti and Arachnos or taking out these things are going to make a difference...either way.
If NCsoft wants to get snooty about it, taking out things like Manticore isn't going to help matters. Nor is it going to hurt matters, if NCsoft isn't going to care.
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As far as I know the people who are working on such projects aren't really interested in Plan Z to begin with. So it's not like those groups are missing out on anything.
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If a group of coders can put out a Star Wars emulator with John Williams's music, Stormtroopers, Han Solo and Darth Vader all in the game, and have neither Sony, nor Lucasarts, nor Disney say a word or do a thing to stop it, I honestly don't think leaving in the Rikti and Arachnos or taking out these things are going to make a difference...either way.
If NCsoft wants to get snooty about it, taking out things like Manticore isn't going to help matters. Nor is it going to hurt matters, if NCsoft isn't going to care.
My feelings exactly. I don't mind new things going in. I just don't see the problem with leaving the old stuff in too.
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I think it extremely unwise to dictate to other people what they "should" and "should not" do/reveal/contribute to. Demands never earn friends.
You also don't win friends with salad.
So if you can, try not to make Devouring Earth enemies walk through every part of city.
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My feelings exactly. I don't mind new things going in. I just don't see the problem with leaving the old stuff in too.
There's no "leaving in". The old stuff has to be re-created from scratch to be usable with new server software. Unless you happen to have the mission scripts (including stuff like spawn information) lying around somewhere in a machine-readable format?
Nobody is talking about replacing zone geometry and stuff. Those are on your client anyway, so any server can legally use them as-is. It would be a problem for the server to call it "Atlas Park", but fortunately it doesn't need to. It just calls it City_01_01.
This is about mission text, and no matter what is done with the software, somebody is going to have to create missions, NPC dialog, etc. to plug in to it. Whether it's original content or an attempt to reproduce the COH content is up to whoever takes up that task. But until a viable server exists, it's a moot point.
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My feelings exactly. I don't mind new things going in. I just don't see the problem with leaving the old stuff in too.
The problem is, there is no old stuff to leave in. Contacts, missions, enemy group, AI, even the combat system, was all on the server. The client was little different from a graphical MUD front-end.
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It would be a problem for the server to call it "Atlas Park"
If NCSoft wants to send you a cease and desist, then changing the name of Atlas Park or changing the name or appearance of a villain group (I'm not sure how far you intend to go with those changes) or changing the text of a mission won't stop them. It won't. I hope I'm never in a position to say I told you so. I'm not a dick. Watching ya'll pour all of that extra retconning work into the I24 community server just for nothing--it wouldn't vindicate me, I'd gain no satisfaction; it would make me feel awful. It would be depressing to watch.
I have only deep admiration for you guys. And, well, please excuse a bit of indignant whining, but it's unfair for Tony to say that I've pigeonholed the community. I've shown a great deal of understanding for differences, and shown a great deal of tolerance. Tony has complimented me for it a few times. When people talk smack, I defend the projects here and the people behind them in the broadcast channels of other games. I know memories tend to grow short in the heat of the moment, and this is a pretty strong difference of opinion. But it doesn't mean that I'm drawing a permanent line in the sand or preparing to slander anyone beneath every Massively article or something. I hope no one else does either.
But I consider it far more rude to show up and complain after something launches. If you care that much, then you ought to speak your piece as early as possible.
On the main forums, people would gather together and go nuts on the devs over some typos or a story arc they felt was full of plot holes. Of course, some people took things for granted, having no idea the game's days were numbered. It was mostly awesome work by the devs. The people who created that content were working in a professional environment and capacity, paid to work all business-day long, for many years. On top of that, they passed everything through QA. So, yes, I'm in the camp that doesn't think we ought to scrap all of that hard work.
Initially, when the I24 community server launches, most anyone will be glad to come back no matter what you do. Replace every villain group with anime-themed vampire cheerleaders. OK. When they're hungry in the desert, few people are food critics. But wait until they're feeling more like themselves. So this is what I believe will happen. If you gut and replace much of the work put into the fictional game world by Paragon Studios, you'll bewilder and disappoint many who just wanted Paragon City back; who wanted to, once again, fight alongside or against the Freedom Phalanx. NCSoft may have shut City of Heroes down but people will say that you destroyed Paragon City. They'll ask why you appropriated their favorite game world and turned it into your own personal AE mission. And then they'll start being mean.
You'd be rightly inspired to reply that you're doing this for free. But when your fans say "You didn't ask us about this," they won't purely be acting like self-entitled jerkwads. I expect some of them will be genuinely shocked and upset, and you ought to give your understanding (and nothing less) when they express themselves. My roommate was pretty upset when I told him about this. He said it was just one more slap in the face from the City of Heroes closure (and he's not even aware of that meme). He wouldn't talk about it after that. You may feel like the ungrateful bastards ought to just be happy that they have a game at all. And you'd be partly right. But that would also mean you learned not much from watching Paragon Studios interact with the community over the years. Huge sweeping changes, particularly those which felt arbitrary, never earned the devs many big smiles.
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I'm just saying, if it's not going to be CoH then in what way is it better to wait for the server emulator and wait for the Phoenix Project?
You can think about the server emulator as another CoH spiritual successor.-
Why divide our resources across so many different projects?
Because different people want different things, and having options is better than not having them.-
If I'm not running around in Atlas Park fighting Hellions then it's not CoH, I don't care how similar the powersets are. Where does that leave me, and the others like me?
Playing probably the closest CoH spiritual successor that can be created.-
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On all of your points, Nightmarer, I am forced to agree, as long as I'm being honest with myself. Earlier tonight I watched the YouTube video linked in my signature, and for a while it made me want to make a 360 degree turn and post, "Screw it, do whatever it takes, I don't care, just bring it back." I won't be one of the people saying some of the meaner things I expect a lot of people to say. If I can't change anyone's mind, I'll join you. Bring on the anime-themed vampire cheerleaders. But I also have a tremendous amount of respect for the world that Paragon Studios built, and I was a big fan of it; not a chance in hell I'd stay quiet while someone talks about scrapping it. Questions like this make me feel like I'm choosing between our old devs and our new volunteer fan content-writing team (and I have no idea who is on that team or what they're doing to our city).
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You also don't win friends with salad.
So if you can, try not to make Devouring Earth enemies walk through every part of city.
Exactly! We can't go around littering the new place like we did the old one. So when we get back in somewhere, remember... clean up your ambushes, people! A tidy city is a healthy city. ;)
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But I also have a tremendous amount of respect for the world that Paragon Studios built, and I was a big fan of it; not a chance in hell I'd stay quiet while someone talks about scrapping it.
So do I and I am perfectly (and painfully) aware that a CoH community server where Paragon City is not Paragon City is not the best solution, not by a mile, I just deem it as the second best solution and try not to look back.
At the end of the day, what we have in the works on Plan Z is even worse (in that sense, please do not take this out of context) a game totally different to CoH but with same UI to "capture the CoH spirit". I still think we'll fare better on Paragon City even if it's not called Paragon City, but that's just me.-
Dammit, that'd be the heck of a name for a SG, "Salad Friends".-
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There's no "leaving in". The old stuff has to be re-created from scratch to be usable with new server software. Unless you happen to have the mission scripts (including stuff like spawn information) lying around somewhere in a machine-readable format?
Nobody is talking about replacing zone geometry and stuff. Those are on your client anyway, so any server can legally use them as-is. It would be a problem for the server to call it "Atlas Park", but fortunately it doesn't need to. It just calls it City_01_01.
This is about mission text, and no matter what is done with the software, somebody is going to have to create missions, NPC dialog, etc. to plug in to it. Whether it's original content or an attempt to reproduce the COH content is up to whoever takes up that task. But until a viable server exists, it's a moot point.
So basically, it'll be a new city with a new story? They'll just be re-using the maps from CoH.
As long as my characters "feel" the same as they did in Paragon City, I think I can live with a new city and a new story.
Initially, when the I24 community server launches, most anyone will be glad to come back no matter what you do. Replace every villain group with anime-themed vampire cheerleaders. OK. When they're hungry in the desert, few people are food critics. But wait until they're feeling more like themselves. So this is what I believe will happen. If you gut and replace much of the work put into the fictional game world by Paragon Studios, you'll bewilder and disappoint many who just wanted Paragon City back; who wanted to, once again, fight alongside or against the Freedom Phalanx. NCSoft may have shut City of Heroes down but people will say that you destroyed Paragon City. They'll ask why you appropriated their favorite game world and turned it into your own personal AE mission. And then they'll start being mean.
My personal belief is that as long as the characters "feel" the same, most people aren't going to really care all that much what the city is called. They'll just be able to pound evil like before.
Exactly! We can't go around littering the new place like we did the old one. So when we get back in somewhere, remember... clean up your ambushes, people! A tidy city is a healthy city. ;)
Back in the day, I used to announce DE ambush spawns in lower level zones when I saw them.
Nothing like running around a corner and getting trampled by a forest 20 levels above you rushing down the street.
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Gawd almighty.
People are interested in SEGS and like projects BECAUSE IT MAY BE LITERALLY YEARS BEFORE WE SEE ANY VERSION OF PLAN Z COME TO LIGHT. Years. I hope not, but it may be years.
I dont want to wait 5 years to recreate my main. I want him back NOW. I have been separated from my characters for 3 months and it is already killing me.
When Plan Z comes to fruition, I will be there with bells on. Meanwhile, people not wanting to get on an emulator dont have to do it, and those of us who DO, who have character concepts in our heads strong enough to be able to survive that guy standing on an aircraft carrier in IP not being named "Statesman"... well we can do that, too.
No one is forcing anyone unhappy that NCIdiocracy is NOT going to give us that exact game back, to participate. Fine. Please do not rain on everyone else's parade though.
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Twisted: Back in the day, I used to announce DE ambush spawns in lower level zones when I saw them.
Nothing like running around a corner and getting trampled by a forest 20 levels above you rushing down the street.
I remember the days when level 40 Luddites used to spawn near Fort Darwin in Mercy. You'd be cutting down a back alley and OOPS. We also used to have Level 50 CoT spawn by the ferry in Sharkhead. The Sharkhead spawns in particular used to be really fun, since you had more firepower to work with. Someone would yell out in Broadcast and everyone in the zone would come running for the epic beat-down. Fun and expees had by all.
Hey, I just thought of something: if the server will be at issue 3 or 4, isnt that *before* ED? I missed all that, I want to six-slot stuff for damage just to say I did. 8)
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I have only deep admiration for you guys. And, well, please excuse a bit of indignant whining, but it's unfair for Tony to say that I've pigeonholed the community.
Again, people are making HUGE assumptions and completely missing the point.
Nobody is retconning anything. We need server software as a first step. We're not "pulling out" existing content, because we don't have it to begin with. Any content work that is done after the software exists will have to be done no matter what.
The whole point is to create software that doesn't infringe on the IP, so that it can be distributed and people can take it and build whatever they want on top of it. Possibly including re-creating the COH content (which would of course be infringement). Once the genie is out of the bottle, it's a lot harder to put it back in. But we need to be able to get to that point without interference in order for it to be successful.
Do I expect it will prevent NCSoft from sending a Cease & Desist letter? No, probably not, at least if they can figure out where to send it. Corporate lawyers are dicks and they'll probably send one to anyone even if they don't have a valid claim, expecting them to fold. However that's not the point. The point is to put the programming teams in a legally defensible position so that if it does come to a legal battle, hopefully the community can be rallied and win, maybe even giving them a black eye in the process if interesting internal documents can be subpoenad during discovery.
Because the software itself will be 100% kosher, and that's the biggest piece of the puzzle that the community is missing.
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I get it and I am good with it. The game exactly as we know it will never exist legally unless they decide to sell it as complete or re-issue it. Other than that legally we can look forward to playing an emulator with good old maps/new content or a feel good successor. Is that about it in a nutshell? Either way I am supporting all efforts ;D
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Again, people are making HUGE assumptions and completely missing the point.
Nobody is retconning anything. We need server software as a first step. We're not "pulling out" existing content, because we don't have it to begin with. Any content work that is done after the software exists will have to be done no matter what.
The whole point is to create software that doesn't infringe on the IP, so that it can be distributed and people can take it and build whatever they want on top of it. Possibly including re-creating the COH content (which would of course be infringement). Once the genie is out of the bottle, it's a lot harder to put it back in. But we need to be able to get to that point without interference in order for it to be successful.
Do I expect it will prevent NCSoft from sending a Cease & Desist letter? No, probably not, at least if they can figure out where to send it. Corporate lawyers are dicks and they'll probably send one to anyone even if they don't have a valid claim, expecting them to fold. However that's not the point. The point is to put the programming teams in a legally defensible position so that if it does come to a legal battle, hopefully the community can be rallied and win, maybe even giving them a black eye in the process if interesting internal documents can be subpoenad during discovery.
Because the software itself will be 100% kosher, and that's the biggest piece of the puzzle that the community is missing.
Ok, so you're saying that someone could theoretically use the server software that is being created to run a CoH server, even if they end up doing it on a local network or something? How easy/difficult will that be? Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what data was stored where. I have 4.3ish GB of CoH data on my machine. What's in that data? Maps, character models, animations? Or just references to the copies of those things that were on the CoH server and now probably no longer exist?
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Ok, so you're saying that someone could theoretically use the server software that is being created to run a CoH server, even if they end up doing it on a local network or something? How easy/difficult will that be? Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what data was stored where. I have 4.3ish GB of CoH data on my machine. What's in that data? Maps, character models, animations? Or just references to the copies of those things that were on the CoH server and now probably no longer exist?
The data hosted on the client is the UI, maps, character models, sounds, visual effects and animations. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) that's all it is. The entire game logic, combat engine, and all story/mission data was hosted on the server, so everything but the interface and audiovisual elements have to be created from scratch. This includes all combat and AI logic, missions, story arcs, etcetera. As i said before i'm impressed at the SEGS progress so far, it's really remarkable, but it's going to take a lot more to produce an actual playable game, and there's no reason to exactly reproduce the combat system and values that were used in Issue 3 instead of using the more balanced values of Issue 23/24. Although some aspects may require tweaking since some mechanics are harder to leverage without UI elements to provide feedback.
When writing the combat engine i would suggest two changes from the CoH enhancement system offhand: implementing a more gradual version of diminishing returns since the Issue 3 client doesn't support the Invention system and setting all enhancements to work like IOs so that their values are determined by enhancement level and unaffected by character level.
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Actually that is not the case with the version of CoH that SEGS is working with, and that is entirely a deliberate choice. I'm not sure when the change occurred, somewhere in the teens, I think, but certainly in the I6-I8 range that SEGS is working with, EVERYTHING was on your client on your machine, and the only thing that the server did was to tell you where you, the NPCs, and the other PCs were on your map. ALL THE REST of the stuff--from missions to dialogue--was in the client. This is why you could run it literally over 24b landlines (and I did).
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Not quite, and SEGS is a little bit worse off on that front, because the powers info that exists on the client didn't have effect data in it until somewhere between Issue 11 and 12, when it was added for real numbers. So they're basically going to have to re-implement all of the powers from memory.
The responsibility for sending mission text has AFAIK always been server-side. At certain points during history -- including at launch -- the client has had a copy of the localized NPC dialog and mission text, but didn't actually use it. It was apparently there by mistake, and while it includes the text, it doesn't include any information about how it's used in the mission. Contact and mission definitions have always been serverside only.
Definitively, earlier clients have:
- Zone geometry -- including spawn points, but not the information of what to spawn there (except for static NPCs like trainers)
- Sound effects / music
- Costume information
- NPC models, which in some cases are no different from player costumes
- Enhancement combination and effectiveness tables
- Store inventories
- Shaders and information necessary for rendering textures
- Class tables, including damage modifiers (though with missing powers data this is somewhat less useful)
- Animations, including sequencing information when one animation leads in to another
- AI behavior aliases, which aren't a full script by any means but give some clues
- Store inventories
- Basic power information -- Name, Description, Endurance Cost, Recharge time, Accuracy, Target Types, and the animation info for activation. No detailed info about effects, so no damage numbers, or information about what FX to play on affected targets.
- Experience tables
Later, post real-numbers clients also have:
- Full powers data, with effects, requirements, etc. Everything you need once the system pieces are implemented.
- NPC definitions, including names, level ranges, and powers (apparently added for pet summons to show up in real numbers, but includes all villain groups as well)
- Recipes and salvage information
- Just about all of the SG base stuff
- Everything you'd need to run the AE user interface, but you still need a mapserver to play it because functionally the missions are the same as normal missions
There are a few notable exceptions. Earlier clients had emotes -- the mapping of typing /em [name] and having it mapped to state bits that the animation system uses, but it was removed in later versions and was apparently strictly serverside. The animations are there but there's no mapping from the name of it to which one to play.
Combat modifiers also used to exist clientside, but were removed at some point. Those are fairly well documented in any event so no big loss there.
The biggest pieces that have never existed on the client are the contact and mission scripts, as well as zone event scripts, spawn information, and things like that. There's a few odds and ends that are missing as well, but nothing as major as those.
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Noyjitat, the community server will actively avoid using all of that content. As Tony has stated since October at least, it will not be going into the game and will instead be replaced by fan-made content or just left out. I'd explain but I have to go. I hate to be one of those "read the thread types" but... ;D
people want cox back. Not a costume creator, not atlas park. They want the game and its content like any other private server. You guys can say the everything is going to be legal thing but its just a form of deception. You know it, I know it, the code monkeys know it. Hell logic knows it. Why the fuck would you waste time reverse engineering a game to play it again to not restore the lost content and features. You'd be better off making an entirely new game or doing endless funraisers to buy the existing game.
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people want cox back. Not a costume creator, not atlas park. They want the game and its content like any other private server. You guys can say the everything is going to be legal thing but its just a form of deception. You know it, I know it, the code monkeys know it. Hell logic knows it. Why the pancake would you waste time reverse engineering a game to play it again to not restore the lost content and features. You'd be better off making an entirely new game or doing endless funraisers to buy the existing game.
Then you can spend effort to make it more CoX for you. Since we arent the ones doing the grunt work, I dont think we really get to judge how it ends up.
I for one am just glad that someone is bothering to try doing this at all. I might want the code released once its done, but by no means does that mean that they should feel required to do so. I may want everything like it was, but that by no means should mean they have to bow to my whims when I'm not supporting them financially, and they aren't asking me to. They're just offering to give us something, if they can.
Considering no one has even given a time table for ANY version of CoX to emerge from the cracks, I think that this, and any arguement that in any way acts like those working on such a thing should be beholden to anyone elses desires, is just... a little selfish. Not rudely, and not intentionally. But that's how it feels from this end.
I just want something back. I've had no game. No City of Heroes, content or not.
When it comes down to it what I want CoX for is for Argent. If I can get it back, the rest can go from there.
Though I've never been able to find Libby's chestpiece in the costume creator even post unlocks, so that might be an issue...
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It's great that people have characters that can exist and make them happy on a server like that. Really, it is. I'm happy for all of you. Not one of my characters can do that for me. My characters were too closely connected to the game lore to exist in a world that has no CoH game lore. Should I be punished for this by being told that the community server will not be for me? Am I not part of the community too?
From the initial murmurs of this project everyone has said that everything that made us happy about CoH would be included. I agree with the argument that ultimately it's the coders project and they have the right to make it what they want. But, they have put themselves in a position where a group of players is left out of this hopeful future they're trying to create. I'm of the mind that the community server should be i24 CoH with no changes whatsoever and NCSoft can suck it. I realize that may not be technically legal. However, private servers are all over the internet for other MMOs (some of which are still running) and nothing has happened to those. I truly believe that fear of legal action by NCSoft is a waste of time. They won't do anything.
Of course, I can understand that the people behind the project might be a bit more fearful of legal action. After all, it's their necks on the line - not mine. So why not minimal changes? Find out exactly what NCSoft can and cannot take action for. If a few signature characters have to be gone, fine. That can be explained easily enough from a story perspective. As long as the developers of the server aren't distributing the client files, there shouldn't be an issue. You won't have copied anything that NCSoft owns. All you did is make a product that works with their game files. Most of us still have the client files, and those that don't will be able to get them discreetly from other players. That would hardly be the fault of the emulator developers.
And yes, scripting and such has to be done no matter how much is changed from the official CoH. However, we have tons of maps and NPC models and sound files and everything else at our fingertips. Use them. No reason to make new ones. As someone else said, if you make new ones you might as well make a new game. In any case, it's not much of an emulator if it doesn't actually emulate the game it's based on.
Do I agree that we should be thankful just to get anything back? No. I honestly don't. If too much is changed, it's more of a mockery to my game than I'm comfortable with. I would rather see CoH rest in peace than become a zombie. It's like the story of the monkey's paw, and I'm urging you all to be careful what you wish for.
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That's great that your character can exist and make you happy on a server like that. Really, it is. I'm happy for you. Not one of my characters can do that for me. My characters were too closely connected to the game lore to exist in a world that has no CoH game lore. Should I be punished for this by being told that the community server will not meet my needs?
No one game can be all things to all people. I am sorry that an emulator will not meet your needs, but there are plenty of people out there who are just like me, in that their characters have no connection at all to any game lore. Well, my SoA does but that is about it. Everyone else can be worked around.
Since the emulator will be around issue 3-4 [?] though, my SoA won't be able to come out to play for a while.
What's bugging me is the idea of people saying "It does not meet MY needs, therefore I don't want it to happen." There are plenty of people who do want it to happen. Why not give it a try and see what happens? Make a new character who is not bound to the lore so tightly.
Do I agree that we should be thankful just to get anything back? No. I honestly don't. If too much is changed, it's more of a mockery to my game than I'm comfortable with. I would rather see CoH rest in peace than become a zombie. It's like the story of the monkey's paw, and I'm urging you all to be careful what you wish for.
*sigh* Then you don't have to participate.
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No one game can be all things to all people. I am sorry that an emulator will not meet your needs, but there are plenty of people out there who are just like me, in that their characters have no connection at all to any game lore. Well, my SoA does but that is about it. Everyone else can be worked around.
Since the emulator will be around issue 3-4 [?] though, my SoA won't be able to come out to play for a while.
What's bugging me is the idea of people saying "It does not meet MY needs, therefore I don't want it to happen." There are plenty of people who do want it to happen. Why not give it a try and see what happens? Make a new character who is not bound to the lore so tightly.
SEGS seems to be entirely using the game as it existed in issue 3-4. My posts are more concerned with the "community server."
And I agree that my initial post was a bit more harsh than it needed to be, which is why I edited it even while you were responding to it.
I understand that it seems selfish of myself and others to say we don't want to see it happen if it doesn't include the CoH IP. But to us it seems selfish that the rest of you make no attempt to understand where we are coming from. I assure you that it's my love for CoH that makes me say the emulator should be City of Heroes. I haven't seen one convincing post arguing why an emulator that is City of Heroes and doesn't distribute client files would be illegal. So why can't we do that?
As far as the one game can't be all things for all people argument...that's obviously false. We are all here because of one game. I want that one back.
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*sigh* Then you don't have to participate.
Precisely the argument that's most annoying to me. I'm not allowed to say I don't want to see an emulator without CoH IP, but you're allowed to tell me that I don't get to have an emulator.
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I haven't seen one convincing post arguing why an emulator that is City of Heroes and doesn't distribute client files would be illegal. So why can't we do that?
Until one takes on the responsibility of actually performing this task (emulator) one can't really claim to know what another goes through mentally in terms of legalities and risk. Will they or won't they come after me legally and to what extent am I exposed? What if it affects my family and personal assets? Jesh...for the person(s) hosting this emulation, these are troublesome scenarios for sure and as you state above have we seen anything rock solid to make our host feel "safe"? Not really. Legal issues are a pain in the rear...they drain you mentally and financially. You can be a good person with good intentions and get completely screwed. As players, we should step back and let the host create what he/she feels is safe or start you own emulator. Like I said before unless NCsoft sells or re-issues the game it will not be the same, legally full proof without assumptions that is, unless someone is willing to say "the hell with it let's roll the dice here".
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Then you can spend effort to make it more CoX for you. Since we arent the ones doing the grunt work, I dont think we really get to judge how it ends up.
I'm sorry, I thought the save paragon city forum and the effort here was to get CoX back by whatever means. Since the 3 month shutdown that's been made crystal clear here but I must be high or something thinking of another forum somewhere.
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Lets not turn on each other yet.
We knew from the start that each person vision of what COH is to them, is different. When a product is ad. as community game or comminuty server, that is assuming that it's made for the community taste. We all co-existed under one game before and by it being ad as community server it is assumed it also a game/server/reverse engineered/data hack/cpu rebuild etc is aimed at all those that was part of the community. If it was actually made for a particular PART of the the community, that should be said from the get go.
Either way it's impossible short of bringing back COH back as it was shut off to gather the whole community. Thus by nature some will be left off unfortunatley, but telling them they dont have to participate and other things of the likes is not helpful. We all know that but they have every right to an opion of what they are looking for like anyone else. If the game is meant to be SEGS view only, then this thread wouldnt exist. But if it's a community project made by the community for the community then of course members of the community will state what drew them to COX and what they would like to play. And some of those desires might be easily done, might be hard to do, may not be legal to do, may be not possible to do, and etc. but that doesnt make their view or what they wish to play anymore less important than those that will get their wish.
I know it's SEGS projects and stuff, but if opinions are not welcomed, then why post anything about it on a public forum? And with opinions, it will different from person to person. Some people want to play their characters and lore is important. Some dont care as long it feel like COX in some semblence. While others feel their characters will be lost forever even in story without certain aspects of the game. Some might not play if Talos Island is not included while another will not play if Talos Island is included. Ultimately it depends on the people doing the project to decide will Talos be included or not but both opinions of whether or not Talos is important is just as valid as any.
And out of all people that should not being trying to silence other people opinions is many people here. Especially when they constantly complained about people trying to silence them from griefing over a game. It is sad to see some turn around and portray that same behavior
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Precisely the argument that's most annoying to me. I'm not allowed to say I don't want to see an emulator without CoH IP, but you're allowed to tell me that I don't get to have an emulator.
This is because if you get your way, none of us will get to see an emulator. Nobody.
However you could simply decline to play on an emulator that you dislike, which would meet your needs WITHOUT impacting the wishes of many, many other people.
We are all here because of one game. I want that one back.
Yes, we ALL want it back, but we are not going to GET it back. We have been handed lemons, and some people have decided to make lemonade out of those lemons. However, you seem to be saying "If its not *pink* lemonade, then I say NO ONE gets any lemonade!" and that's kind of upsetting to some of us.
Its up to the person actually making the lemonade to decide what kind it will turn out to be. I am just glad that someone, somewhere knows how to make that lemonade, you know? 'Cause I sure don't.
I will just take what I am offered, and be very, very grateful someone took the time to mix it up for us.
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Its up to the person actually making the lemonade to decide what kind it will turn out to be. I am just glad that someone, somewhere knows how to make that lemonade, you know? 'Cause I sure don't.
I will just take what I am offered, and be very, very grateful someone took the time to mix it up for us.
Hear Hear!!! It's really that simple. I am supporting all efforts and that includes SEGS :D
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Ooops
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Its up to the person actually making the lemonade to decide what kind it will turn out to be. I am just glad that someone, somewhere knows how to make that lemonade, you know? 'Cause I sure don't.
I will just take what I am offered, and be very, very grateful someone took the time to mix it up for us.
Yep! This is pretty much how I see it too. I'll try out all the different projects when they're ready, I mean I'm bound to like at least one of them. Cause I ain't no lemonade chef either.
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Not one of my characters can do that for me. My characters were too closely connected to the game lore to exist in a world that has no CoH game lore. Should I be punished for this by being told that the community server will not be for me? Am I not part of the community too?
Afraid you're barking at the wrong tree, NCSoft punished you, not anyone trying to create a community server.-
From the initial murmurs of this project everyone has said that everything that made us happy about CoH would be included. I agree with the argument that ultimately it's the coders project and they have the right to make it what they want. But, they have put themselves in a position where a group of players is left out of this hopeful future they're trying to create. I'm of the mind that the community server should be i24 CoH with no changes whatsoever and NCSoft can suck it. I realize that may not be technically legal. However, private servers are all over the internet for other MMOs (some of which are still running) and nothing has happened to those. I truly believe that fear of legal action by NCSoft is a waste of time. They won't do anything.
And yet from previous posts you seem to agree with Plan Z projects which will be even more different and to CoH than any community server. In any case, their effort, their choice.-
Of course, I can understand that the people behind the project might be a bit more fearful of legal action. After all, it's their necks on the line - not mine.
Can you really? It doesn't look like you can understand that.-
So why not minimal changes? Find out exactly what NCSoft can and cannot take action for. If a few signature characters have to be gone, fine. That can be explained easily enough from a story perspective. As long as the developers of the server aren't distributing the client files, there shouldn't be an issue. You won't have copied anything that NCSoft owns. All you did is make a product that works with their game files. Most of us still have the client files, and those that don't will be able to get them discreetly from other players. That would hardly be the fault of the emulator developers.
So why don't you start an emulator project by yourself?
And yes, scripting and such has to be done no matter how much is changed from the official CoH. However, we have tons of maps and NPC models and sound files and everything else at our fingertips. Use them. No reason to make new ones. As someone else said, if you make new ones you might as well make a new game. In any case, it's not much of an emulator if it doesn't actually emulate the game it's based on.
Do I agree that we should be thankful just to get anything back? No. I honestly don't. If too much is changed, it's more of a mockery to my game than I'm comfortable with. I would rather see CoH rest in peace than become a zombie. It's like the story of the monkey's paw, and I'm urging you all to be careful what you wish for.
Again, why not start an emulator project yourself? You seem to have the knowledge and certainly, you are the one who knows what suits your tastes best.-
I understand that it seems selfish of myself and others to say we don't want to see it happen if it doesn't include the CoH IP.
It sounds more like "I don't want to play and I want to take my ball home with me so none of you can play either", except that its not your ball, even if you act as if it were.-
But to us it seems selfish that the rest of you make no attempt to understand where we are coming from. I assure you that it's my love for CoH that makes me say the emulator should be City of Heroes. I haven't seen one convincing post arguing why an emulator that is City of Heroes and doesn't distribute client files would be illegal. So why can't we do that?
I do understand where do you come from and I'm sure many others do, again, if it's not what you want it to be then just don't try it or make one yourself to suit your tastes.-
As far as the one game can't be all things for all people argument...that's obviously false. We are all here because of one game. I want that one back.
Barking at the wrong tree again, afraid only NCSoft can give back what you want by either getting it live again or selling the IP to someone who does.-
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X: We all co-existed under one game before and by it being ad as community server it is assumed it also a game/server/reverse engineered/data hack/cpu rebuild etc is aimed at all those that was part of the community. If it was actually made for a particular PART of the the community, that should be said from the get go.
CoX could not please everyone, all the time even as a game that had been on the stove, as it were for eight years. Yet people think that an emulator from ISSUE 3 OR 4 is going to be everything to everyone, all at the same time, right out of the gate. This is not a realistic expectation.
The emulator will be created, and HOPEFULLY as time passes, changes and additions will be made which will bring it more up to speed with the game as we left it. BUT WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. Let's not jump all over the creators, let's let them do their thing and see what happens as time passes. Even before the project is out of the starting gate, people are all antsy with the demands. Yikes.
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Nightmare: And yet from previous posts you seem to agree with Plan Z projects which will be even more different and to CoH than any community server.
This is a good point. If one is so dogmatic about CoX lore, what on earth use would any version of Plan Z be to them? And I am not being snarky, I am honestly curious.
I'm much more flexible, my characters will survive a move to a new City. Who knows, that city might even be a better neighborhood.
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I see a great deal of what about me and my needs but very little about - what does Nemerle need.
Nemerle, what do YOU need as help in this endeavor? I am not a code monkie as such but I would be willing to do grunt work. Even if it is slavishly entering data into spread sheets - I would be more than willing to help.
We want to be heroes, it's what we do and saying - you don't understand my needs - is incorrect. We all NEED to be heroes in our City once more - but if we can't perhaps we can be new heroes in another City.
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It's great that people have characters that can exist and make them happy on a server like that. Really, it is. I'm happy for all of you. Not one of my characters can do that for me. My characters were too closely connected to the game lore to exist in a world that has no CoH game lore. Should I be punished for this by being told that the community server will not be for me? Am I not part of the community too?
I have a character, my most advanced Incarnated character, whose bio states that he was an involuntary subject in a Council project along with a Kheldian. With the Kheldian's assistance, he managed to escape. Yet, he can still fight crime in some city other than Paragon City.
I am curious, in what way are your characters unplayable in an emulator that does not explicitly state that it is City of Heroes? There is nothing keeping you from alluding to CoT, Arachnos, or any other CoH lore in your character's bio. They would just be in a different city fighting crime there. I'm just wondering why your characters are incapable of leaving Paragon City, The Rogue Isles, or Preatoria.
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Nemerle, what do YOU need as help in this endeavor? I am not a code monkie as such but I would be willing to do grunt work. Even if it is slavishly entering data into spread sheets - I would be more than willing to help.
Thanks Ironwolf, strangely enough, I was expecting that question a bit earlier then this :D
My main motivation in working on SEGS is providing people with a tool-set that would allow them to create super-hero themed universes. Even though we're currently concentrating on recreating the functionality needed to run the CoX clients I hope that the components and tools that we create along the way can, and will be used by other projects.
( and yes SEGS is open source, and it's using a license that is compatible with using it's code in commercial applications )
So, what help You guys can provide ? Even if you're not comfortable with the idea of emulation, there are very many things that will have to be done for each and every project:
Tooling for example:
- Administrative tools
- User facing web applications
- World editing tools.
- Asset distribution framework ( since we don't have anything like cohupdater anymore )
- ... many other things I'm forgetting right now and am quite sure other projects could add to this list many common and useful things :)
What can You do to help bring those things about ?
Usually when one takes on a task of creating a software project, one goes around and asks the fine people that will end up using that software, "what do You want this to do ?".
Which has a fancy name of "requirements capturing", but in it's most basic form is just telling a story about what You imagine the tool should do.
Take for example CoH's Mission Architect component:
Do we have a full description of it's functionality, it's failings, and things it was lacking ? I don't know, I hope we do :)
Can we write a wish list for Mission Architect v2.0 ? That we can do, even if for everyone the list of features will look a bit different, there will be some things that most of us can agree on, and every project will want at least some of those things available in their particular rendition of super-themed universe.
Given all that, at the most basic level what all the projects need, are people that believe in them - just like fairies, we must be believed in or we just disappear :D
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The emulator will be created, and HOPEFULLY as time passes, changes and additions will be made which will bring it more up to speed with the game as we left it. BUT WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. Let's not jump all over the creators, let's let them do their thing and see what happens as time passes. Even before the project is out of the starting gate, people are all antsy with the demands. Yikes.
Yup. This is probably best.
Yet at the same time, it's can of worms to say that a game or project will replace the game that is lost but then say that some stuff will not be included. Which give rise to the different things that made COX, well, COX to different people. If one thing is left out, then to that person who think that a certain feature is what made COX COX to them and find out it's being left out, then it wont be COX in their eyes. Only way to make COX COX is to basically make COX, which probably wont happen and thus someone will be left out at the discretion of the creator.
Could some more people create side projects and stuff? Sure they probably can, but will they? Depends. Many feel that with the thre three main things going on already dilute the efforts.
In the end, all we can do overall is see what happens and go from there. At the same time though, like anything on a public forum, if talk of opinions about what should it be and should not be or what should be included and should not be incuded or what people would like to see included or not included is not welcomed, that could have been stemmed out by not even announcing anything beyond, a project in the works, on a public forum or looking for support or else have to expect opinions especially when trying to gather support or help for said project, and not all of them are going to be straight praise with what is liked to be seen done.
Aint it lovely to see everyone with opinions and what made COX COX to them? If they was all the same, the internet and this forum would be a very quiet place.
Of course everyoen wont be pleased in the end. But that doesnt mean their opinion especially before hand doesnt matter even if it's the minority vote. It is what made COX COX to them and even if that was the same for every single COXer, then probably majority of these threads about the various projects wouldnt exist.
Telling people if they dont like it tough, while may be true, usually dont help. Hell we didnt like COX closing, and NCSoft basically said we are closing COX and not selling, deal with it. Yet, that didnt stop us from stating it was bad move and doing what we do. But that attitude did put a bad taste worse than the actual action in our mouths. Some of us who would otherwise have tried their other offerings probably wont just based off how they did the shutdown. Same here. Those people that is told "your opinion dont matter they will build the game how they see fit so since they are making it be thankful for anything they put out even if it's crap or not what you like." might just do that and not play not only SEGS version but anything that have anything to do with the other projects and that is not good for business.
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Those people that is told "your opinion dont matter they will build the game how they see fit so since they are making it be thankful for anything they put out even if it's crap or not what you like." might just do that and not play not only SEGS version but anything that have anything to do with the other projects and that is not good for business.
And telling people "do it my way or don't do it at all" is better for business in your opinion?
See, not playing a game because a forum post would be a stupid thing to do. I'm sure anyone not playing any of the projects will be related to their enjoyment of the game they're playing and not because of some forum post.
Even the people who are told "don't play if you don't like X Project" have at least the choice of playing X Project or not, exactly the choice they deny everyone else by saying "do it my way or don't do it at all".-
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There's a huge amount of confusion about everything.
SEGS: recreating CoX circa I3/I4 with hopes to update to include future stuff, no guarantees
community server: reverse-engineering the server data.
From there, folks with a community server in theory could use that data to re-create City of Heroes. People could also use that data to create a whole new world - multiple worlds - pretty much anything. No one is saying that the community servers will not, ever, NEVER have the CoX content. They're just saying "we're reverse engineering the server, not the content - you or someone else can do the content". Repeatedly. And yet people only hear "we're not reverse engineering the content" instead of what they're ACTUALLY SAYING.
Stop bitching about not getting City. After the server's been written, someone somewhere will probably hook City into it. It'll take a lot of work, but nothing is impossible.
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1.) My characters can theoretically fight crime in a different city. BUT my own suspension of disbelief will suffer if I'm fighting NPCs that look exactly like 5th Column but are named 4th Column or something along those lines. The same holds true for flying through "Freedom Port." I'm sure I'd adjust to it eventually. To keep the lemonade metaphor going...it'd be like drinking powdered lemonade instead of fresh lemonade. It's kind of the same, but it just makes me want fresh lemonade.
2.) I didn't start an emulator project because I've got no idea how to write code of that particular nature. However, I'd have no problems hosting a server if it came to that. If we get to a stage that a CoH server is possible and nobody wants to risk hosting it, then I'll figure out a way to get one up and running.
3.) I have no problems with Plan Z because it is what it says it is. A new game. I have problems with the community server because it claims it's emulating City of Heroes. It is not. It's running a new game using City of Heroes tech. If the emulator doesn't use renamed CoH content then I'm fine with it and will figure out a reason for my characters to be in this new city. I just don't agree with using CoH maps and the like if it isn't going to be CoH. In a similar way I disapprove of mods to single player games that add a totally unrelated story but use the same maps as the original story.
4.) SEGS and the community server are two different projects. SEGS is what nemerle summarized a short while ago. The community server is a different project aimed at providing an I24+ game environment with the IP stripped out of it.
5.) I realize that everyone wants City of Heroes back. That's the point of my arguments. If we have the ability to do it and don't do it then that's a shame. Particularly when there's not really a legal precedent for it being illegal to host a server that operates using a client you did not write the code for. Assuming, of course, that you do not distribute that client.
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There's a huge amount of confusion about everything.
SEGS: recreating CoX circa I3/I4 with hopes to update to include future stuff, no guarantees
community server: reverse-engineering the server data.
From there, folks with a community server in theory could use that data to re-create City of Heroes. People could also use that data to create a whole new world - multiple worlds - pretty much anything. No one is saying that the community servers will not, ever, NEVER have the CoX content. They're just saying "we're reverse engineering the server, not the content - you or someone else can do the content". Repeatedly. And yet people only hear "we're not reverse engineering the content" instead of what they're ACTUALLY SAYING.
Stop bitching about not getting City. After the server's been written, someone somewhere will probably hook City into it. It'll take a lot of work, but nothing is impossible.
Quoting myself to put it at the bottom of the page, because Ampithere posted without reading my post.
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That depends on what precisely you mean by "City of Heroes". It means different things to different people. To some people, it was a way to spend time with their friends, and some of them have moved on to other games. To them, their experience hasn't degraded that much; they're still spending time with their friends. To some, it's the story, characters, art, etc. Believe it or not, but some of them haven't been affected much, either. They no longer have the world in which to act out their stories, but nothing is stopping someone from writing stories about Positron or drawing their characters, as long as they're not doing it for profit.
We still have people writing fan fiction and creating art based on City of Heroes characters.
<reading this whole thread...shaking head>
First of all, I quoted ToneyV because I fall into this group. I have completely abandoned my previous Fan-fiction project (actually, I turned it over to another Fan-fiction writer to finish up and close out) and am creating a new "Primalverse" based on COH.
In another thread, I mentioned that I had tried SEGS offering...and decided that starting back at I3 was not for me (unlike a lot here, I am a virtual newcomer, having started only about 2 and a half years before the closing).
To me, what I saw seemed like an alien game...something that LOOKED a bit similar to what I thought of as COH...but wasn't quite there. So, while I gave kudos to SEGS for coming out with something many others could enjoy, it was not for me. So I uninstalled the COX client.
Of course, then some one had to be really mean and post a link that showed someone moving around in Atlas in the SEGS client.
That was all it took. I have to reverse my position. No. it is NOT the game I played. But it IS the setting I played in.
So...I reinstalled the client...(of course I can't connect now....sigh..figures). No....it isn't I23. No...I don't expect I will ever see some of those contacts and missions ever again. But that IS Paragon City and I think it would be fantastic to be able to fly around my city again...taking screenshots...And perhaps it would not be so bad to grow along with this as it grows.
As for the Community Server project.....this is the first I have heard of it being a separate project...I thought, as well, that it and SEGS were one and the same.
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I understand that it seems selfish of myself and others to say we don't want to see it happen if it doesn't include the CoH IP.
It if was legal, Plan Z would be using the CoH IP.
However, the "Heroes and Vilalins" IP, along with the gameplay and systems is being designed and developed to make as smooth a transition as legally possible between Paragon City and Titan City for every character concept that players might have had over the past 8 years.
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X: Those people that is told "your opinion dont matter they will build the game how they see fit so since they are making it be thankful for anything they put out even if it's crap or not what you like." might just do that and not play not only SEGS version but anything that have anything to do with the other projects and that is not good for business.
We cannot cover all possible desires from all possible players; the projects have to have a starting point, and the creators have to do what they feel is best when it comes to protecting themselves legally.
If someone is going to go "If its not *exactly* the same as the game I left, I'm not playing" then that is very sad, but its also not a reasonable demand. Some folks expect the NCSoft servers to be turned back on, so we can pick up where we left off. We'd all like that!! But this is not happening, because for some arcane reason NCSoft seems to feel that we the playerbase deserve punishment, or something. You'd have to ask them.
Regardless: We're not getting that exact experience back. We can get all pouty about it, or we can pull our big-girl and -boy socks up and decide: "When I get the chance to fly again, by gorry I am going to take it, and put the best face I can on it." Those are our options, and I know which one I will be taking.
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Here's how I see it:
If the "Community Server" team has decided to reverse engineer the server then add their own lore and characters, that was their decision. They are the ones doing the work and they get that right. Yes, I'd love to have CoH back and believe it will be back one day. However, I am glad for the work supposedly being done on the Community Server and I'll play and support it as soon as I can.
If you want CoH back how you think it should be then do what they did: put up or shut up. Form your own team and build it back the way you wanted it. Don't insult or complain to the people doing all the free work.
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*sigh... You people are hurting my brain. I literally don't know how I can make this any simpler. Stop knocking other people's projects. I don't care if you think it's illegal, a colossal waste of time, or what. People are working on what they want to work on, and there are several projects underway that pretty much any CoH fan can jump in and say, "THAT is where I want my effort to go." If you want to contribute, ping someone who's associated with that projects. If you don't, don't! No one will make you. All I ask is for people to stop making demands or trying to foist guilt trips upon other people who are doing what they want.
If you think that you can do a better job than we have of getting NCsoft to change their mind and turn the servers back on so that things can go back to just they way they were before, please do it! I've already had one person do such and end-run around me, and believe it or not, I'm fine with that although things obviously haven't worked out on that front, either.
I really, really don't mind "This project is teh roxxorz!" posts. But I'm getting a wee bit irritated at the posts telling or implying to other projects that they're not worthwhile. It's not like if one group succeeds, all of the others will say, "Well, durn. I guess that's it, that's the one that everyone wanted, let's just pack up and go home now." So knock it off, and focus on the positive, not the negative. Otherwise, you'll be doomed to a life of misery because, like I said, things will never go back to the way they were--but that doesn't mean that things can't be pretty durn good again.
P.S. There's not just one "Community Server" team, and there likely won't be just one "Community Server." I don't know how that impression got started, but let's stop propagating it. There are at least two distinct projects that I know of that are counting on using the City of Heroes client files: SEGS and another project designed to create a compatible server with a much later version of the client. Even if both of them are successful, I seriously doubt that it's likely that there will be just one server running the end result of each project. There could be many servers with various content and rules in place.
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Nemerle your project is absolutely what I want.
I personally want to use a tool that would enable me to make worlds based on the City of game play. What type of world editors would be useful?
I am trying to learn UDK 3 right now but it is slow and will take months to learn what I need to know - however - I am happy to buy other world artifacts pre-made or textures pre-made. If you have anything you want let us know - I mean if we can get Guy to Texas, I think we can help you get the tools you need.
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I'm sorry, I thought the save paragon city forum and the effort here was to get CoX back by whatever means. Since the 3 month shutdown that's been made crystal clear here but I must be high or something thinking of another forum somewhere.
We can support SEGs and other efforts while we wait for someone to want to buy the game. I dont see how thats a conflict of interests.
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My absolute favourite option would be if NCSoft decided to sell the IP after all and we had the game running, with some of the devs back and with new owners keen to take it forward and to start with putting Issue 24 out. The thing is though, we're not going to get something like that unless NCSoft plays ball. So I for one find it very encouraging that there are so many ideas and projects underway, it gives me confidence that at some point in the future at least one of them will help capture what I enjoyed in CoH.
As for the server emulation issue itself it's been stated a few times here that most of the mission content and such is handled server-side. If we want that then somebody is going to need to add it in, it isn't a case of editing things out to make it IP neutral. That being the case the proposal as I understand it makes perfect sense.
You have several parties working to get a server running that will let us wander about the city and whatever else they're able to get going, though likely without missions and other NCSoft IP. I'm no lawyer, but it at least sounds like there's a strong case to make for this being legal. The server itself is making use of the client that we've obtained legally and it's communicating with that information in its own way.
Now, once any new server software is at that point then it would be great if somebody could release a version of Mission Architect or some other way to add missions to the sparse game world. From there I would imagine several servers may well spring up, some of which try to ape CoH directly and some of which are their own world. That way any legal risk from how the world content is set up will sit with the people running each server. But the project which created the server software in the first place should still be legal.
As far as I can tell doing things the proposed way isn't some sort of unpleasant compromise. It's a way to give the best of both worlds. Allowing some to get as close to City as they possibly can (with the inherent risk of NCSoft shutting them down) and allowing others to work with what they have to play something City-like but far enough removed to keep NCSoft away.
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*sigh... You people are hurting my brain.
*offers Tony some aspirin*
Take two of these and see me tomorrow afternoon. I have to work in the morning. :)
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We can support SEGs and other efforts while we wait for someone to want to buy the game. I dont see how thats a conflict of interests.
I don't recall saying you couldn't. Or are you implying something else.
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And telling people "do it my way or don't do it at all" is better for business in your opinion?
See, not playing a game because a forum post would be a stupid thing to do. I'm sure anyone not playing any of the projects will be related to their enjoyment of the game they're playing and not because of some forum post.
Even the people who are told "don't play if you don't like X Project" have at least the choice of playing X Project or not, exactly the choice they deny everyone else by saying "do it my way or don't do it at all".-
Neither absolute way is good for business is what I'm saying. Especially the part you placed in quotation marks in your statement.
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Regardless: We're not getting that exact experience back. We can get all pouty about it, or we can pull our big-girl and -boy socks up and decide: "When I get the chance to fly again, by gorry I am going to take it, and put the best face I can on it." Those are our options, and I know which one I will be taking.
Exactly.
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I will state that I am not bashing anyones work or telling you how to do this or not to do this. But here's the series of events I've seen:
*Cox closure was announced
*Save paragon city movement launched beginning with some very very long posts and threads. In that thread the goal mentioned were to either save cox from shutting down or get someone to buy it. It was also mentioned that reverse engineering work was in progress as a last resort so we'd be able to play again someday.
*sentinel plus is released. A tool to backup all of your character data, badges, etc
*Cox shuts down
*i24 Costume creator unlocked
*players begin to babble about legal concerns
Eventually someone stated that any emulated server wouldn't be having previous content but instead all new content. Which leaves me scratching my head in confusion. I had high hopes and still really do and I have tried to reassure people that eventually we'll be running msrs, hamidon, bafs and itfs again. Because you know it's being worked on or as I had thought based off information.
I'm sensing alot of hostility in this thread and the other private server thread much like the offical cox forum had; it really needs to stop.
I look forward to all projects but it seems communication is really far off from what I thought was going on.
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There's a huge amount of confusion about everything.
SEGS: recreating CoX circa I3/I4 with hopes to update to include future stuff, no guarantees
community server: reverse-engineering the server data.
From there, folks with a community server in theory could use that data to re-create City of Heroes. People could also use that data to create a whole new world - multiple worlds - pretty much anything. No one is saying that the community servers will not, ever, NEVER have the CoX content. They're just saying "we're reverse engineering the server, not the content - you or someone else can do the content". Repeatedly. And yet people only hear "we're not reverse engineering the content" instead of what they're ACTUALLY SAYING.
Stop bitching about not getting City. After the server's been written, someone somewhere will probably hook City into it. It'll take a lot of work, but nothing is impossible.
Quoting myself AGAIN because people apparently STILL haven't read it.
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What's the "short, short version", Aggelakis? :p
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Yes indeed I do think that, that is why you will never find me storing stuff on a "cloud." IIRC, a few years ago there was a huge flap when Amazon pulled Kindle access to a book people had paid for.
Ah, but the story is not complete without the name of the book (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html?_r=0). And they say irony is dead...
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What's the "short, short version", Aggelakis? :p
Short, short version?
"Quitcher bitchin'."
:p
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For a change of pace, I've created a list of simple tasks (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=8036) that can help advance SEGS a little bit and hopefully provide other projects with some interesting data.
Other task suggestions very much welcome.
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For a change of pace, I've created a list of simple tasks (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=8036) that can help advance SEGS a little bit and hopefully provide other projects with some interesting data.
Other task suggestions very much welcome.
Good idea. I'll take a look later today and see what I can do :)
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I just fired up the SEGS CoX client and was able to create one of my 50's....be warned your emotions will run from ;D to :'( and then back to ;D, but it's real nice to have the ability to do this again. Thanks for SEGS Nemerle!!!
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Logged in. Ran around Atlas... with super speed.... Loved it. *^_^*
Nemerle, yooda man.
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Logged in. Ran around Atlas... with super speed.... Loved it. *^_^*
Nemerle, yooda man.
I wanted to comment on this more. SEGS has really changed it since I last logged in.
It's much cleaner now. You can see everything clearly, you can run around Atlas, listen to the music, see some things in chat.
Nice and simple progress.
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The main thing i am worried aobut is DLing this and having it bork up my CoX files somehow. I am going to back those up this weekend [the file is too large to fit on a standard DVD], but until then I am scared to do anything that might hurt that file.
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To help you feel safer, it is very easy to install in a separate location, and I actually reused my CoH Beta backup by dragging and dropping it into a fresh install after trying out SEGS.
Still, I heavily encourage backup.
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When I tried to download it, I got some crap put on my computer and I had to restore it to an earlier date to get rid of it. Could someone please PM a screen shot of the download screen and let me know exactly what to click on to get the files? Thank you so much.
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If you don't want to use bittorrent to download the client, then one available here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17303829/SEGS/CoX-Setup.exe) should work.
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OOOhhh, I will try that when I get home from work (yes, I read the forums at work - lol).
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So, nemerle, I know you're super busy and I am in no way expecting results with any type of hurried speed. That would be dumb as haste makes waste and I'd rather see a good product in a year than a mediocre one in 8 months.
However, the only thing I am curious of is what kind of timeline could we possibly expect? Seeing one instance of Atlas with others there in 2 or 3 months? Having some powers and NPCs in 6 or so? I really don't have a single idea on the type of work it takes to do this type of project, I'm just really curious.
Also, is there anything else we could do to help? Donate? Send you cookies? :D
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If you don't want to use bittorrent to download the client, then one available here (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17303829/SEGS/CoX-Setup.exe) should work.
So, I downloaded the client. Thank you so much. I made a toon and logged in but I was transparent (as others as mentioned). Are we still at that point or did I miss something with the install? Anyway, it was great to log in again. That made my night. Thank you for all your hard work on this. We all appreciate it.
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Also, is there anything else we could do to help? Donate? Send you cookies? :D
After a bit of request, Nemerle added a donate button to the website.
http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8051
It's below the symbol at the top left.
Google chrome will offer to translate the paypal page, since it isn't english. Looks like he's accepting USD though.
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So, nemerle, I know you're super busy and I am in no way expecting results with any type of hurried speed. That would be dumb as haste makes waste and I'd rather see a good product in a year than a mediocre one in 8 months.
However, the only thing I am curious of is what kind of timeline could we possibly expect? Seeing one instance of Atlas with others there in 2 or 3 months? Having some powers and NPCs in 6 or so? I really don't have a single idea on the type of work it takes to do this type of project, I'm just really curious.
Also, is there anything else we could do to help? Donate? Send you cookies? :D
Progress depends on my day job workload. I do expect to have people see each other's characters pretty soon. Powers an NPCs.. really can't tell :)
re:Donate page, Sentry44 thanks for the bug report, it's taken care of :)
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Sorry to derail but..
I must be blind because I am sure there was a thread on how to get the client up to snuff to use SEGS.
My client went when I uninstalled the ncsoft launcher months ago...
Can anyone help me pls? :o
MM
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Hi, visit this thread (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8016) on SEGS forums. It should guide You :)
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Thank you, I am feeling nostalgic but I cant believe they took it away. I was always partial to Galaxy City and with this bringing back the earlier version of Cox I know i will be able to see it again.
Thank you again, you guys have my unending support.
MM
Hi, visit this thread (http://segs.nemerle.eu/forumz/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8016) on SEGS forums. It should guide You :)
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Just a little tidbit before bedtime :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AabkNAwe_I)
You are awesome :)
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I dropped $50 on this - nemerle if you need specific software - development tools that could aid your efforts please let us know and we can see about funding the effort.
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*sigh... You people are hurting my brain. I literally don't know how I can make this any simpler. Stop knocking other people's projects. I don't care if you think it's illegal, a colossal waste of time, or what. People are working on what they want to work on, and there are several projects underway that pretty much any CoH fan can jump in and say, "THAT is where I want my effort to go." If you want to contribute, ping someone who's associated with that projects. If you don't, don't! No one will make you. All I ask is for people to stop making demands or trying to foist guilt trips upon other people who are doing what they want.
If you think that you can do a better job than we have of getting NCsoft to change their mind and turn the servers back on so that things can go back to just they way they were before, please do it! I've already had one person do such and end-run around me, and believe it or not, I'm fine with that although things obviously haven't worked out on that front, either.
I really, really don't mind "This project is teh roxxorz!" posts. But I'm getting a wee bit irritated at the posts telling or implying to other projects that they're not worthwhile. It's not like if one group succeeds, all of the others will say, "Well, durn. I guess that's it, that's the one that everyone wanted, let's just pack up and go home now." So knock it off, and focus on the positive, not the negative. Otherwise, you'll be doomed to a life of misery because, like I said, things will never go back to the way they were--but that doesn't mean that things can't be pretty durn good again.
P.S. There's not just one "Community Server" team, and there likely won't be just one "Community Server." I don't know how that impression got started, but let's stop propagating it. There are at least two distinct projects that I know of that are counting on using the City of Heroes client files: SEGS and another project designed to create a compatible server with a much later version of the client. Even if both of them are successful, I seriously doubt that it's likely that there will be just one server running the end result of each project. There could be many servers with various content and rules in place.
This forum needs a "like" button. :)
So....*like* 8)
I too don't see the benefit in being negative about the efforts of others who are doing all this work for free. I wish I could help, but I'm non-skilled in programming and make little money as a professional musician. Bleh... :-\
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Now, once any new server software is at that point then it would be great if somebody could release a version of Mission Architect or some other way to add missions to the sparse game world. From there I would imagine several servers may well spring up, some of which try to ape CoH directly and some of which are their own world. That way any legal risk from how the world content is set up will sit with the people running each server. But the project which created the server software in the first place should still be legal.
Oooo...I like that. Some of the missions that players came up with in AE were awesome. Plus I could actually help with something like that for a change! :) I'm a player who was more into the way the game played than specific content. If I could put my old characters into new content I wouldn't mind a bit.
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I dropped $50 on this - nemerle if you need specific software - development tools that could aid your efforts please let us know and we can see about funding the effort.
I humbly thank You. Your donation serves as a warm expression of appreciation and a Morale Inspiration rolled into one.
As for tools, I'd love to have some Coding Speed and Brain Capacity SOs, or maybe a respec to some kind of pet Class ? :)
And in all seriousness, the choices I've made during development allow me to work very comfortably using free software only.
For the foreseeable future I have more tools then hands and eyes to use them.... I wonder, how much does a decent developer-level BCI costs these days ? :)
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There is, of course, another alternative though it would be expensive too. NCSoft is a publicly traded company. 036570.ks is their symbol on the Korean Stock Exchange. So they won't sell the game code/licenses/etc. They can't stop us from buying their company since they are publicly traded. Own stock, you get to vote and a say on their board. It's perfectly legal.
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Wouldn't be pricey to a man named Jaqium Phoenix. If you recall, in the film I'm Still Here, he played a ton of CoH. Worth a shot.
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There is, of course, another alternative though it would be expensive too. NCSoft is a publicly traded company. 036570.ks is their symbol on the Korean Stock Exchange. So they won't sell the game code/licenses/etc. They can't stop us from buying their company since they are publicly traded. Own stock, you get to vote and a say on their board. It's perfectly legal.
From what I recall, the CXOs own a controlling interest.
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While unlikely to happen it is an alternative and likely the only one that would get the game restored to it's original format in a timely manor. Otherwise, we just need to wait until the patents run out which may not be as long as you might think given the game is 8+ years old already.
And, yes it's a long shot at best with a low chance of succeeding.
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Copy-write on written material is 75 years in the USA in South Korea I am not sure but will do some research. I am not sure what it is on programs.
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While unlikely to happen it is an alternative and likely the only one that would get the game restored to it's original format in a timely manor. Otherwise, we just need to wait until the patents run out which may not be as long as you might think given the game is 8+ years old already.
Patents are a distinctive thing from copyrights.
Patents can cover technical solutions used in the game client or server and are entirely irrelevant to copyrights on the game's contents.
As far as copyright goes, in USA it persists for 95 years after publication, in Korea I'm not certain but it's at least 50 years.
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How long does a copyright last?
The term of copyright for a particular work depends on several factors, including whether it has been published, and, if so, the date of first publication. As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first. For works first published prior to 1978, the term will vary depending on several factors. To determine the length of copyright protection for a particular work, consult chapter 3 of the Copyright Act (title 17 of the United States Code). More information on the term of copyright can be found in Circular 15a, Duration of Copyright, and Circular 1, Copyright Basics.
Direct from the US Copyright Office.
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Actually, all that needs to be done is develop code that does the same thing so long as it doesn't contain their code. So long as the act alike code doesn't include any source code developed by NCSoft, there's nothing they do.
As for patents and copyrights, you guys are quite correct that a copyright lasts a lot longer but the question is did they copyright, patent, or what? I wouldn't assume anything here. It would be worth the time to research it. If they did a patent, it's on file and publicly available for review. I'm not sure who would hold copyright info but I'm willing to bet those petitions are publicly reviewable too.
Yes companies today still make the mistake of not taking out patents and copyrights. Also, where did they file them assuming they did? A patent in one country doesn't automatically get protection in another unless the two countries in question have an agreement stating they do. These are questions that are worth looking into.
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It would not be a patent.
It would be a copyright.
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Actually, all that needs to be done is develop code that does the same thing so long as it doesn't contain their code. So long as the act alike code doesn't include any source code developed by NCSoft, there's nothing they do.
As for patents and copyrights, you guys are quite correct that a copyright lasts a lot longer but the question is did they copyright, patent, or what? I wouldn't assume anything here. It would be worth the time to research it. If they did a patent, it's on file and publicly available for review. I'm not sure who would hold copyright info but I'm willing to bet those petitions are publicly reviewable too.
Yes companies today still make the mistake of not taking out patents and copyrights. Also, where did they file them assuming they did? A patent in one country doesn't automatically get protection in another unless the two countries in question have an agreement stating they do. These are questions that are worth looking into.
Looked it up. NCSoft copyrighted alot of COX stuff in the US. And have a few patents filed here but I didnt cant remember the details off the top of my head of what those patents cover. Not sure if they have some they filed in their home and transfered over and or if any was transfered over. For a game as large as them, while there was numerous filings dealing with COX and NCSoft there didnt seem like enough to cover everything so there might be some pretty big holes there that can be used.
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Add $25 from me.
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It would not be a patent.
It would be a copyright.
A copyright would make more sense, but I've heard of patent lawsuits over source code.
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Looked it up. NCSoft copyrighted alot of COX stuff in the US. And have a few patents filed here but I didnt cant remember the details off the top of my head of what those patents cover. Not sure if they have some they filed in their home and transfered over and or if any was transfered over. For a game as large as them, while there was numerous filings dealing with COX and NCSoft there didnt seem like enough to cover everything so there might be some pretty big holes there that can be used.
That's enough due diligence for me. I figured they'd be smart enough to put the best protection they can which is copyrights in the USA. Likely they did the same in several other countries they do business in too.\
Thanks for looking it up, JaguarX. At least we know where that stands.
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I tried SEGS again last night and was able to get in. I moved more smoothly but was still transparent. I like how the entrance to the Hollows was missing. It was nice to move around.
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I tried SEGS again last night and was able to get in. I moved more smoothly but was still transparent. I like how the entrance to the Hollows was missing. It was nice to move around.
It's so much fun too run around and hear the old music around atlas when the rubberbanding ends :D
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Methinks I crashed. I got in once and ran around as Tahquitz once again. But when I sign in as my account (Bastard) after failing to Quit to Desktop on the last forced stop (Win 7 Task Manager > Processes, telling the client to quit wasn't enough), it hangs.
If I broke it, I apologize.
But all the same, thanks for the effort. It reminds me of that last scene in Princess Mononoke where the forest is decimated, and one little Akodama peeks out of the devastation and clicks his little head.
(... oops, spoiler alert.)
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Methinks I crashed. I got in once and ran around as Tahquitz once again. But when I sign in as my account (Bastard) after failing to Quit to Desktop on the last forced stop (Win 7 Task Manager > Processes, telling the client to quit wasn't enough), it hangs.
If I broke it, I apologize.
If I remember right, for now you can't quit out except using windows task manager (and ending task) + the server restarts periodically incase anyone actually were to break it.
I forgot about this thread though; most people talk about SEGS in this thread...http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,6673.0.html . Glad people are still checking out SEGS.
I know nemerle is still working on SEGS and I've seen Codewalker on his boards recently so that's kind of nice.
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Ah, our little forest is growing. :D
I know Icon is functionally more useable than SEGS at this point, but do other player characters appear when signed onto "Freedom", or is my own data just sent back to me?
If so, I have a small cadre who might like to try this.
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When I first tried the SEGs server, I was able to run with near superspeed, and jump with near superjump, but now every time I go to move, it glitches out and I end up in the same spot I started.
Is anyone else experiencing this?
Edited typo
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When I play, my motion is near walking speed, and I have very low clearance while jumping. It's possible to jump up on the ledge on the reflecting pools near the Atlas Memorial, then fall into the pool and be unable to jump out.
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... I think my account was blocked. My username was Bastard, now SEGS reports that I'm blocked by an administrator.
No matter, I'll just make another. Just made me laugh.
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... I think my account was blocked. My username was Bastard, now SEGS reports that I'm blocked by an administrator.
No matter, I'll just make another. Just made me laugh.
That's a known issue. I think when he does updates to the server it locks out previous accounts or something.