Titan Network
Graveyard => Save Paragon Retirees => Save Paragon City! => Topic started by: Pinnacle Blue on September 17, 2013, 01:16:42 PM
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I've completely and utterly lost hope that we're getting our game back. Simply put, we just don't have the leverage to get NCSoft to do what we want-- whether it's reopen the game or sell it. I did the math-- 21000+ of us signed a petition. One year's subscription from each and every person who signed amounts to $3.78 million (assuming $15/mo) in revenues (without taking into account store purchases).
NCSoft can easily do without that amount. In two months, they will have.
Also... there aren't 21K of us on the Titan Network. I'm not sure we even number a thousand. And too many people-- in general, but also here-- are way too willing to continue to give NCSoft money. If we don't put up a united front against a ruthless and proven unethical corporate behemoth, the behemoth will win, period, but I digress.
The dearth of good news has me questioning whether there will ever be any good news. I want a reason to believe, but in the absence of that, I will just have to wait for one of the successor projects to finish.
Thank you to everyone I ever got the chance to team with or otherwise help, especially Victoria Victrix, for the great memories, and thank you to everyone at Titan for providing us with a place to continue our community after the shutdown.
UPDATE: Please see this post (http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php/topic,9121.msg130400.html#msg130400).
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I know it is hard to hold hope of a return to play. There is more than one way to veiw this endeavor, it is first a celebration of a game we found noteworthy and second there are many people working on things they just can't tell you about.
I will reference this little clip from Tony V:
Anyway, we definitely still have things in the pipeline. I know this line gets old, but I still can't talk about them for two main reasons: 1) We don't want NCsoft to get wind of what we're working on. Not that I think it's illegal or that we'll get in trouble for it, but most of the people working on the stuff are just more comfortable that way. And 2) experience has taught me that as soon as I say, "We're working on X," that sets expectations and then I and other team members get constantly pinged with "When are you going to be done with X?" messages.
Things are happening - I know it seems some folks are holding secrets but in reality - it has to be that way in some cases. I wish the business was more open but we don't know if anyone has even contacted NCSoft.
Here is a previous post of mine with a timeline:
1. Idea submitted to a company - filtered by secretaries or lower management - 2 weeks before it ever sees a main dudes desk.
2. He likes the idea and wants to explore it - assigns it to a lower manager who then gives it to a team to investigate it - 2-4 weeks
3. Money team investigates it and finds that there is a market for it and the cost could be paid for in 26 months and then it would start making a profit, they also do a cost analysis and find that by advertising X dollars you could gain x dollars back. - 1-2 months
4. Team passes it to legal - legal runs the purchase agreement and looks to see if it infringes or could leave them open to any liabilities - 2-3 months,
5. Report back to CEO or management and give the green light - 1 month
6. Offer tendered to NCSoft for purchase of software IP and account information - NCSoft decides whether to sell or not, says yes and gets their lawyers involved - 1-2 months
7. Game is purchased - server and development team hired game is ported and Alpha is started. 1-2 months
8. Open Beta - 1-2 months.
Game opens about 12-18 months after this all starts.
This is if everyone agrees and no glitches.
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I understand how you feel, I truly do. I wish there was something that I could do for you to re-kindle your hope. I know in my heart that Tony and Codewalker and so many others are doing everything they can, and if it helps to know, on the anniversary of the Unity Rally there were dozens of us who met up in Skype, on CO, in the forum, or in Icon.
I wish I could give you some of my hope. I don't have much now, but I have enough to share. ;)
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I trust that people, working on the various projects, are just as passionate about City of Heroes, as I am.
We will have our city back! :)
Never Give Up! Never Surrender!
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I firmly believe we will never get City out of NCsoft's hands.
I also firmly believe we will get to play City again.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
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I don't believe for a second that NCSoft is going to hold onto the city of heroes IP. Not forever. Thing is there was alot more then 21,000 people who played city of heroes, and it was far more active that last night then any other day in the games recent history. City of heroes will be back eventually, especially since there still isn't any good competition for it(when the games survival was because another game that was far more popular shut down you know somethings wrong).
Edit: We also have the spiritual successors to look forward to, which I am hopeful will stomp the current competition considering how repetitive it's become.
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It is in my heart that we WILL get our CITY back!! Just keep believing and keep fighting the good fight!! If I didn't believe this I would not still be doing Save COH Radio! When things look bleak and it's our darkest hour, you have to dig in deep, lift your chin up, raise that torch high and let them know they took our city but they can't stop us from fighting to get it back! We have to have hope that tomorrow will be a better day. We will be in Paragon city, or the Rogue Isles once again!!
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I sympathize. I figure I have one angry tirade left in me and I'm saving it for November 30th at midnight. I don't know what's gonna happen after that, but I'm gonna stay irate for at least a year.
>:|
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Keep up hope. There's no reason to quit hoping.
Yes it's been a year. So what? Yes, we didn't get City from NCSoft. So what? Yes, "We don't have it yet." So what?
It doesn't mean we're forever out of options! Yes, it may seem we won't get it back in the near future, but things can change quickly.
I loved playing City of Heroes as much as anyone else did, but quitting and giving up hope won't get us any further. It may seem that we have no chance of getting City Of Heroes/Villains back, but I can assure you that it's a matter of time.
Living in the 'age of instant' can get us into this type of thought, but all we have to realize is that things don't last forever.
We will have City back, and City's closure spawned spiritual successors and spurred a new movement for super hero games. I think that this is just the beginning of something great.
It takes time for a spark to become a roaring fire, it doesn't happen instantly. It requires time, care and patience.
Keep tending to that flame.
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Keep up hope. There's no reason to quit hoping.
Yes it's been a year. So what? Yes, we didn't get City from NCSoft. So what? Yes, "We don't have it yet." So what?
It doesn't mean we're forever out of options! Yes, it may seem we won't get it back in the near future, but things can change quickly.
I loved playing City of Heroes as much as anyone else did, but quitting and giving up hope won't get us any further. It may seem that we have no chance of getting City Of Heroes/Villains back, but I can assure you that it's a matter of time.
Living in the 'age of instant' can get us into this type of thought, but all we have to realize is that things don't last forever.
We will have City back, and City's closure spawned spiritual successors and spurred a new movement for super hero games. I think that this is just the beginning of something great.
It takes time for a spark to become a roaring fire, it doesn't happen instantly. It requires time, care and patience.
Keep tending to that flame.
yeah.
But not sure if fire fits. Fire tends to be destructive and consume everything it touches leaving it in ash. But I cant think of a better way of putting it :D and it sounds cool and motivational. Keep the fire burning.
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I'm going to be blunt here and I hope you don't take this personally because you're not the only one who's guilty of this, but I'd rather have a thousand people playing Guild Wars 2 than one person post here that they just don't think that we're ever getting City of Heroes back.
Now to be clear, I'm not saying that I expect no one to ever think that. There are plenty of good reasons to think it. I mean, when a game shuts down, it's gone for good, right? Maybe, but I've never acted like what we're trying to accomplish here isn't a bit unprecedented. I've never said it would be easy, or promised that it would happen within a year. And what keeps me working on this stuff isn't how many people play or don't play Guild Wars 2. I'm not going to give any money to NCosft, but I honestly couldn't care less if other people do. What keeps me working on this stuff is one thing only: how dedicated the City of Heroes community remains to the game.
Several people have asked me this past year, "Tony, what will it take for you to give up and accept that City of Heroes is dead?" My answer is that I will continue fighting until I feel like the community simply doesn't care any more. Posts like this do more damage towards that end--getting the community to not care any more--than anything NCsoft could ever say or do. (Ironically, even including shutting down the game.)
I know that some people have this wild expectation that the Titan Network is going to swoop in any minute now and say something along the lines of, "BEHOLD! We have recreated our beloved game, and now everyone can pick up where you left off!" To some extent, it's our own fault when we release stuff like Icon, because it tends to make people think, "Wow, they're just RIGHT on the edge of making it happen, it will be ANY day now!", no matter how much we say that such expectations are unfounded but that we're making slow and steady progress on it. And then a few months go by, and we have yet another post or two like this. And even though it's not explicitly said, I can't help but take as, "You guys aren't working fast enough."
But I will say this yet again: Write us off at your own peril. Not that anything bad will happen to you if you do, but I'm telling you that we will have City of Heroes back again at some point. And when we do, the people who stuck with us through thick and thin, those will be the people who get to bask in the epicness of whatever we manage pull off. The people who said all along, "Wow, I knew this was going to be hard, but we believe in you guys" are going to be vindicated. Posts like this, on the other hand, are going to look a bit foolish in hindsight. (Not that I ever expect us to not get posts that boil down to, "This isn't exactly how it was before, so it doesn't count!" :roll:)
If you believe that City of Heroes is dead, such is your prerogative, and while I disagree, you're free to believe what you want. If you're discouraged, then trust me, I've been there, and I know how crushingly demoralizing it can be. But what exactly do you hope to accomplish by publicly declaring it here to a community of people who are working hard to save this game? Did it make you feel better after hitting the Post button, as if a weight had been lifted off of your shoulders, that you no longer have to bear this burden of hope? Because to be honest, that's kind of selfish, don't you think? Doing it at the expense of those of us who are still fighting to see this thing through?
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What you do to keep the hope alive is, you don't let the situation consume your every waking thought. Find something to fill up your time, to occupy your mind. Something positive so the time flies by.
And what you definitely don't do is go looking for news every day. (Edit: Cause you'll go crazy getting your hopes up constantly like that.) Whatever does eventually come out of all this, one thing for certain is that it won't be measured in "days after the closure". It'll be measured in "months after the closure". I hate to say that, but it's true. No matter which attempt ends up working, they are all going to take significant amounts of time. So, by all means keep in touch every day if you like. That's great :) But when it comes to looking for news... well to be honest, just keep in touch and when there's news to share I'm pretty sure it'll find you.
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*snip*A wall of text you should really have read in the original post*
Seriously Tony, I love you.
Like a brother or weird uncle, but still... ;D
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I have no doubt that, one day, one way or another, we will have our city back. Why do I feel this way? Because I simply cannot bring myself to think that we won't.
Now if we travel out into the great gaming universe and look around, I'm sure that we'll find people who still miss games like Dungeon runners, Matrix online, Asherons Call (oh, wait...), Tabula Rasa, and the dozens of other MMO's that have been shuttered. A lot of those may never see the light of day again because not enough people care.
Well, I care about at least one game. My resources are limited, my powers are not that vast, and I am just one person, but I will continue to support whatever reasonable efforts come around.
Until then, I can always afford hope.
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Also know that there are quite a few of us who monitor the situation and chip in where we can, to keep the COH spirit alive. I want to be as encouraging as the other responders to this post, and acknowledge that there are efforts on several fronts to recreate the COH experience in one form or another. I'm convinced that will happen, and the community will be there to cheer and get back to hero-mongering as we used to.
Even after so long without the game, I sit down in RL with friends who were fellow players, and we discuss both our wonderful times with COH, and our expectations for a revival, whatever form that takes. What a remarkable testimony to the game's impression and endurance.
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I keep thinking about the game on a regular basis. I keep wanting it back. I even keep talking about it with friends, reminiscing and making jokes about stuff in City terms.
Good things come to those who wait, as the saying goes. :)
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I'm telling you that we will have City of Heroes back again at some point.
:D
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I understand the OP's despair. We've been forced to play their game, by their rules. And we're not much more than glob flies to them. Like I've said here before, I've already been down this road with certain other communities that formed around a shared interest. I fear what might happen here, years down the line. With people telling the die-hards to give up already and move on with their lives.
There are still lessons to be learned here though. I think an MMO that is built, run and maintained by its own community and embracing the open source model is the future of multiplayer gaming. Getting away from oppressive corporate whim and putting all the power in the hands of the players themselves is the only good way to go! We might not get back City of Heroes but maybe together we could build something even better than it. And then we can show the NCSofts, the EAs and the Activisions of the world that we don't need them anymore.
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I know it's tough to "keep the faith" at times, but we have to be the most dedicated MMO community ever. Not quite a year after shutdown, and we're still here, and there are not 1 but 3 successor games in development and, of course, our Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers continue to make progress on getting our City back.
It's just going to take a while - so hang in there and don't give up hope.
Don't let the bastards at NCLimp win. ;)
In the meantime - try to keep yourself occupied. Me, I keep building estates in The Sims 3 (probably should actually get around to playing it one of these days...) ;D
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...and, of course, our Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers continue to make progress on getting our City back.
I am forevermore going refer to this effort as SCoRE.
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I am forevermore going refer to this effort as SCoRE.
Oh, hilarious! I didn't even realize I had made an acronym! Very well, let it be known I named the group! ;D
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You know, on another forum, I would write off a post like he OP's as narcissism, because, there, it is. Some here frequent that forum and play that game, and you may disagree with me. I stand by it, though.
Here, in this place, in this time, I understand. I've been there. I used to post a lot, sometimes spending entire days surfing the various topis and threads, waiting for the next person to reply. I don't really have a good analogy for it, but it probably wasn't healthy.
Then, I go busy with things, and I would only have a chance to post or comment once or twice a day, then only stop in for a quick read of new posts. Now, I would have to look at my profile to see when the last time I posted was. It may not have even been this week.
But, make no mistake: I haven't lost hope, only zeal. It's sad to see a thread like this from you, if you're even still here to read this, because your name is one that I've seen since "the beginning." I understand where you are coming from on this, but I'm channeling my frustration by throwing myself into work and study. I'm learning to program. I rebuilt the front porch on my mom's 100 year old house. I know that the projects here will take time, so I'm finding things to take my mind off it, while maybe giving me a chance to help out. It's like the old School House Rock about Munchies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92BUcFP-fWY&noredirect=1). Go outside. Find stuff to do! ;)
I forget how I wanted to close this out, so I'll leave you with this. Don't take the silence as a sign of dwindling numbers. There are 23000+ registered members, here. True, most have never posted, and a majority of the rest have fewer than half a dozen to their names. But, for every person who registered, there are at least 4 more who are aware of this efforts, here, and check the forums from time to time for updates. Lurkers.
Don't think of the silence as dwindling community. Think of it as an army lying in wait, ready to ambush the MMO Bourgeoisie. 8)
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I firmly believe we will never get City out of NCsoft's hands.
I also firmly believe we will get to play City again.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
You have no idea how much I want to "Like" this post.
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I understand the OP's despair. We've been forced to play their game, by their rules. And we're not much more than glob flies to them. Like I've said here before, I've already been down this road with certain other communities that formed around a shared interest. I fear what might happen here, years down the line. With people telling the die-hards to give up already and move on with their lives.
There are still lessons to be learned here though. I think an MMO that is built, run and maintained by its own community and embracing the open source model is the future of multiplayer gaming. Getting away from oppressive corporate whim and putting all the power in the hands of the players themselves is the only good way to go! We might not get back City of Heroes but maybe together we could build something even better than it. And then we can show the NCSofts, the EAs and the Activisions of the world that we don't need them anymore.
Indeed.
Seen many come and go. Some lasted for 5 years before waning off some 3 months.
There is an old saying, sometimes you have to go along to get along. It's their ball game, their deck of cards. First we have to go along-build game or the sort. Then we can get along-Make the game a success that thye cant help but notice. Meaning more than a few close friends and a few friends of a friend all from one website or two. Then the game can be changed. But it will take a while, and by a while, lucky if by the end of this decade before it's back to "normal".
It's easy to say hope forever and be hope and cheering all day and cheering all night and rallying against the common enemies, and such and making noise, the fact is eventually the noise die down, the groups form groups and go different ways leaving no one or not many to actually stir the pot, then there is the silence of agreement and reality sets in. Soooo....now what? I say dont worry.
See some people believe hope is like a switch. Either you're supposed to have this blind hope that you rally all day and night and day and night forever or you're hopeless forever and should be cast.
Actually I think hope is one of the most complicated fleeting emotions and or thought process out there. It comes and goes some days it will be strong some days it will be weak other days it will be middle, and like many things, it needs to be fed. Some people learned to self feed their hope. Other's hope will starve to death without a proper meal here and there. And some will be in 102 years if they have to still saying "Dont give up hope. NCSOFT cant hold out much longer!" Other after a year, their hope feel expired and exhausted. It happens. Nothing for anyone to be ashamed of. BEcause no matter how long it go, someone to someone else will always be giving up too early in someone else eyes. Someone give up in 5 years, the 6 years hope person will call them quitter while the ten year hope person will call them quitters while the 102 year hope person while gumming his apple sauce will call them all quitters too early. The good thing about hope is whileit can go away, it can always come back. So even those that lost hope now, shouldnt be counted out. All they need is a spark and or a sign and that hope will return just as strong as ever.
And also one the main reason way back in the beginning I said do not look down on the ones that lost hope. Because with the long road ahead, anyone can lose hope at one time or another and be in the same boat feeling the same way that the people they used to look their nose down and called all sorts of names ("oh they just roll over and die." "Quitters" and etc.) with contempt on in Nov. 2012. I don't think we are even at half or even at the quarter point yet. Have to stay strong at the same time humble. Because those that people poke fun at then and now for "having no hope", could be same one posting they have lost hope by next year.
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I left city of before, when it needed me the most. I will not give up playing city of again. I want to thank tony keeping the faith and all the hard work he and his team is doing.
despair is a bad thing, but like others have suggested find something to occupy your time, for me im going to college and I went back to playing sto; till I get back and rise from the fire like a phoenix
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What I will not do is give up hope of being in our City again. I will wait patiently for all of us to reunite in our city. I will NOT go quietly into that good night and I will not back down! However long it takes, I'll stay right here waiting to log on with the rest of you. I thank you all for your steadfastness and your awesome efforts!
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Thanks to everyone who replied. Please accept my apology for my original post; let's just say I was in a thoroughly unproductive frame of mind when I made it. What I really wanted, and what I should have just come out and said, was, "I need a reason to believe."
Even though that's not what I said-- y'all came through. Big-time. I might not have the zeal I used to, but I've certainly got my hope back.
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I'm with Aggelakis on this one... I don't believe we'll ever get NCSoft to budge. But then, I don't think getting them to blink is our only hope, either. There are other possibilities, and personally? I'm willing to wait around to see what comes of them.
In the meantime, I have a massively huge collection of screenshots, dozens of demo files and multiple-terabytes of FRAPs videos to tinker around with. It's not the same as playing, true, but patience is a virtue and I'm still confident that with enough time, I'll get to stalk around and be heroic again. Maybe not this year, or next, or even the one after... but I'm in this for the long haul. It'll be worth the wait. ^_^
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We're right there with you, Pinnacle. And a whole lot closer than you think. I got a feeling a whole lot of heroes and villains are standing shoulder to shoulder with you ready to lend an ear, a hand, and a place to talk about it. Like a lot of folks have already said, yea, it can look dark from time to time, but that's just temporary. We go on, we support our group and all the efforts to restore our City. So you ain't alone by a long shot. We'll hang in there with you.
And naming SCoRE? How cool is that? Wow...and it was on the fly, too, in response to your OP!
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Is a long road, but we will remain strong. Our city will be back to us one of these days *keeps up the hope* :)
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When I think of the miracles that have happened in my life, and when being in the right place at the right time have proved wondrous, I can't give up believing we will have our City back. My desire to don my cape and hit the streets of Paragon have not diminished one bit since shutdown. So, no matter what the time frame is of a triumphant return to the game, I will be happy beyond words....till then, I will busy myself with life and never lose my faith and hope. Every area of trouble gives out a ray of hope, and the one unchangeable certainty is that nothing is certain or unchangeable. There is a saying in Tibetan, 'Tragedy should be utilized as a source of strength.' No matter what sort of difficulties, how painful experience is, if we lose our hope, that's our real disaster.
(https://i.imgur.com/2fqsiYhl.png)
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I think you are making a mistake in assuming that 21,000 people was all that was playing CoH. Thats people who signed the petition. The devs have gone on record to say that CoH was making far more during the period where it was F2P than when it was purely subscription. I know I spent more money on the game AND I was still subscribing. Thats why there was so much development going on and power sets being released etc etc.. The game was in the black.. that much is without question.
And I agree.. City of Heroes will be back in one form or another. Its not going to happen overnight... but its going to happen..
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Thanks to everyone who replied. Please accept my apology for my original post; let's just say I was in a thoroughly unproductive frame of mind when I made it. What I really wanted, and what I should have just come out and said, was, "I need a reason to believe."
'Sall good. How about this: We now have a project name for the reverse engineering efforts.
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...thanks to the cleverness of you, Tony! Proceed to crow for us!
When I discover the cleverness of a remarkable me,
How can I hide it
When deep down inside it just tickles me so
That I've gotta let go and crow!
From Peter Pan
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I can understand how each feels about this. It's touchy. It's a painful sore for many of us. To have our "meeting hall and hunting grounds" ripped away from us, surely leaves scares that won't heal for a long time. My toons gave me 8 good years of fun and enjoyment and brought me some of the best people I know. People I'm proud to call my friends. That's you.
What gives me real hope though is something related. See, another MMO was ripped out of the hands of a group of Aussies a few years ago. And like our community, some of them moved on too. Some gave up. But, some did not give up. Some "fought" back. They pulled together and started their own MMO. Now, I don't remember the name but I'm betting one of our friends here does. They built their own look alike MMO. It's free to play and free of any corporate influences. The genre isn't my cup of tea so I didn't put much effort into learning about it.
Now, ff they did it, we can too. Now my talents aren't so much in the technical anymore so I personally can't help with coding. I'm more IT PM/BA now. My artistic skills and musical skills suck. But I also know we have friends here who are just as committed to making our world live again who have the talents. It will take much time and somethings will be different. Some things won't be quite as we remember them. And, you know what? That's ok in my book too.
The important thing is we don't give up. As my mice would tell you, "No Surrender!"
LV
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Thanks to everyone who replied. Please accept my apology for my original post; let's just say I was in a thoroughly unproductive frame of mind when I made it. What I really wanted, and what I should have just come out and said, was, "I need a reason to believe."
Even though that's not what I said-- y'all came through. Big-time. I might not have the zeal I used to, but I've certainly got my hope back.
One of the ways that I keep hope alive, no matter what I'm going through, is by looking at all the brightly burning candles of hope and generosity in the world. The firemen then brave the dangers of a burning house to rescue the people (or pets) still inside, the police that put themselves in harms way to keep others safe, and the "regular joes" that give a kid some soup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUM4Mb9rUTU). All of that shows me that there is always reason to hope. If they could do that, then why are we sweating the small stuff? We'll get our city back...or one much better.
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Everyone has bad days, man. That's what friends are for. :)
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Sorry Tony, I don't think we are every going to get THE game back. We are going to get something like it. Maybe even a close copy of it. But Paragon City in name? No. Not unless there is some big change of heart at NCSOFT, which will happen when their baseball team wins their league (not likely for years).
There may be some attempts at a reversed engineered private server, one that can use the existing client. That isn't beyond the realm of possibility. Codewalker has done some wonderful work on understanding the client. But it wouldn't be something we could publicly crow about. Not like what we could with either of the Plan Z projects.
We should be looking at keeping the community together, not ostracizing those who are simply realists. We lost the battle but that doesn't mean we are tossing in the towel. We are waiting. We are remembering. We are keeping the meaning of CoH alive, here and in other MMOs.
There is no shame in spending time elsewhere. Even ones made by studios under NCSOFT's thumb. I spent over a thousand on the game they decided to close on me. The one that started three days before the announcement, $50 retail. I even got it on sale. Not a penny since.
It has shown me alternatives to the traditional quest, craft and market structure that we had. Some things are better (gasp!) and some things are worse but unless you examine what else is out there and "borrow" what works better the question of making a Super Hero genre MMO that has a significant long term following is just wishful thinking and I want that for a Super Hero genre MMO.
Not even Super Hero. Just Hero. That was the fascinating part of CoH to me. It was multi-genre and not just capes and masks. We had whatever the player could imagine without being fenced in by some massive IP the game is forced to work within but not interfere with. All we had was the modern world, one where super heroes existed, one where multiverse travel was discovered, one which an "alien" invasion was fought off but at the cost of nearly all the heroes on planet. Now take that player and go. Unleash your creative juices. Given these classes, these power sets, these costume pieces, this character editor, do what you will. Pull from myth, from fantasy, from science fiction. I had characters that ranged from a prototype hero assist robot who yearning to be treated as a real hero; a former sequestered alien from Roswell; a female Hanyo who is much older than she appears; a 19th century retired British soldier now scientist/engineer who's experiment (which was funded by a mysterious Prussian nobleman) caused him to time skip to our century; a young women on the verge of death until she joined with another being not of this Earth. Even a young engineer who took the prototype fire and rescue power armor he was working on out one night to "field test" against some Hellions, disguising it in the the Santa suit that was used for the company Christmas party to hide the fact from his boss.
You simply don't have that liberty, that freedom in most other MMOs. The world is tightly defined. Races, classes, back story. You are from their here and now. Pick one of these tragic backstories.
That's what we have to keep alive here. The hope that such a creative MMO will return in some form. That this tight knit group of players who tasted this, who know that this approach to a world is really the way to go, that we were just ahead of the curve.
It's just this instance of such a world is over. It will rise again. We just have to be willing to wait a bit longer.
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Sorry Tony, I don't think we are every going to get THE game back. We are going to get something like it. Maybe even a close copy of it. But Paragon City in name? No. Not unless there is some big change of heart at NCSOFT, which will happen when their baseball team wins their league (not likely for years).
NCsoft doesn't have to be involved to get City back. THE City. OUR City.
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... but I'm telling you that we will have City of Heroes back again at some point. And when we do, the people who stuck with us through thick and thin, those will be the people who get to bask in the epicness of whatever we manage pull off...
I have renewed hope now. My [Bask] power is green-ringed!
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I understand the feelings of despair. They largely kept me from playing during the final months. I kinda regret not being able to push that aside and enjoy what I had for those last few weeks, but the hurt and outrage and the feeling of emptiness were too much to deal with. It was a long time before I could even browse the wiki without feeling angry or blue. It's taking all of us our own time to deal with our losses and the magnitude of the task ahead of us and decide how we want to push forward.
As for me, I'm holding on to hope, but I'm also moving forward.
I still hope we get the game back, in some form, in the relatively near future (even if we do have to be a little hush-hush about it). Further down the road, I hope that MWM comes through big and in a few years the big publishers are staring in horror at a successful MMO powered by something other than corporate greed. Beyond that, I hope that they inspire others to do the same and ten or twelve years from now, the idea that an indifferent corporation could pull the plug on a player community's world will be as archaic as the floppy disk. Community-driven galaxies, cities, fantasy kingdoms and cyberpunk dystopias, far as the eye can see. Maybe that's getting into wishful thinking, but I can hope.
Meanwhile, though, I'm kinda through with grieving. Not that I wouldn't hop in game and start kicking some Council tail in a heartbeat if I could, but I'm tired of being sad and angry about it. If I'm spending time and energy on the matter, I want it to be positive. The funeral clothes are back in the closet. Either I'm reminiscing with a smile, or posting screenshots to remind people of how great CoH could be, or perhaps working with one of the recovery efforts (got some free time, finally).
I still haven't found a new MMO that has stuck yet, though I might try again sometime in the future. If I do, it won't be an NCSoft product. Not that I'm still filled with seething rage or think that anyone in Korea cares about my personal boycott, but the way that they manage their games is incompatible with what I want from an MMO, so I'm not going to shop there again. Nothing against those who do. These days, I'm spending the money I would have spent on CoH on some classic Steam games and I'm having a blast with it. FTL, Galactic Civ II, I've been on a space kick this last month or two. It's amazing how much game you can get for five bucks these days.
And, of course, I keep drifting back in here during my breaks at work, to savor the little bits of good news and to draw a little inspiration when things seem bleak and so that, when the big day finally comes, we can celebrate together.
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Meanwhile, though, I'm kinda through with grieving. Not that I wouldn't hop in game and start kicking some Council tail in a heartbeat if I could, but I'm tired of being sad and angry about it. If I'm spending time and energy on the matter, I want it to be positive. The funeral clothes are back in the closet. Either I'm reminiscing with a smile, or posting screenshots to remind people of how great CoH could be, or perhaps working with one of the recovery efforts (got some free time, finally).
Yeah, you can only stay down in the dumps so long before it just gets old. Onward and upward, that's the spirit!
And, of course, I keep drifting back in here during my breaks at work, to savor the little bits of good news and to draw a little inspiration when things seem bleak and so that, when the big day finally comes, we can celebrate together.
That day is gonna rock so hard. Like seriously. ;D
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I've completely and utterly lost hope that we're getting our game back.
My understanding is that reverse-engineering efforts often take several YEARS. YEARS!!!!! For simpler games than CoX.
I am impatient too. I really am. Logging into Icon makes me cry.
But we just have to be patient. NOTHING WORTH HAVING COMES EASILY.
I still cant believe what happened. I cant believe it. We all lost all our stuff, stuff we paid for and ground endlessly for. We ran the Magisterium trial 50 times per alt, and for what? How many BAFs did we run? Speaking for me, all together I probably ran 500 of those things. All so NCSoft could kill what we did, and laugh while they did it.
If we give up, NCSoft wins. Its that simple. We cant let them win.
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Thanks to everyone who replied. Please accept my apology for my original post; let's just say I was in a thoroughly unproductive frame of mind when I made it. What I really wanted, and what I should have just come out and said, was, "I need a reason to believe."
Even though that's not what I said-- y'all came through. Big-time. I might not have the zeal I used to, but I've certainly got my hope back.
And this, Blue, is the hallmark of heroes: the willingness to stand back up and get back in the fight. Hold your torch high, keep the faith, and one day, perhaps sooner then we think, we'll be back in the skies of Paragon where we belong.
... until next year, in Paragon...
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I also think we're going to return to Paragon eventually, whether it's in the form of a miraculous about-face on the part of NCSoft or as a rebirth as City of Heroes 2 by some other company once NCSoft finally parts with the IP rights. Our community is--not was, but IS--too unique, too special to entirely fade away. It was the feel of community that made CoX the true breakthrough that it was, and it's that very same community that makes the loss so wrenching even almost a year later.
Why do I think CoX is destined to rise again? Tons of reasons. Our spirit, our community, along with our unwillingness to give up on a cause we believe in. The amazing cooperation and even collaboration between the developers, the artists and the players, which remains unmatched among any MMORPG to date. The sheer wealth of content that 8.5 years had allowed to flourish, with niche (please don't beoffended, I mean it in a good way) powersets like Beam Rifle and Demon Summoning, niche costume pieces like Steampunk, RoboManga and Retro Sci-Fi. Wide-open mission construction in Architect. A character creator system which understood that appearance should NOT equal effect when it comes to gear and costume pieces. An openness which permitted and even in rare cases encouraged players to poke around at the numbers, the mechanics, the statistics in an attempt to better understand the game's inner workings and then communicate those findings to the developers to help THEM make the game even better.
How much of this has yet to be replicated by any other MMORPG? CoX is approaching its tenth birthday next year, and the next closest superhero MMORPG has accomplished maybe 5-10% of what CoX did. 5-10%. I don't mean that as an exaggeration, either. Nothing comes close. Yes, some games have prettier graphics. CoX's character models were old, sure. But imagine how amazing they're going to look when we get CoH2.
We'll be back one day, and God, is it going to feel good. Until then, I have some pretty good ideas of what my characters have been up to while the lines of communication with Paragon have been dark. They're still fighting the good (and bad, depending on the character) fight, so you'd better believe we have to keep fighting too.
Jo
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I don't kid myself about NC giving up the rights. They are no more going to give up those rights than I am going to grow wings and fly IRL.
They have abdicated leadership, they have given us nothing to follow. So they can just get out of our way. At this point they are irrelevant.
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They have abdicated leadership, they have given us nothing to follow. So they can just get out of our way. At this point they are irrelevant.
Exactly. I've said before, even before the actual shutdown, that we were going to get our City back - NCSoft just got to choose whether or not they were going to make any money in the process. So far, it's looks like they're choosing to forfeit any profits on this venture - their loss, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.
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Glad you didn't give up, Blue. Otherwise, how would I harass your Warshade when we get to run amok in Paragon again?
(I swear, when we get the game back again, I'm going to need a second account just for all of the new character concepts I've squirreled away since shutdown...)
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(I swear, when we get the game back again, I'm going to need a second account just for all of the new character concepts I've squirreled away since shutdown...)
I know, I keep creating them in Mids. :)
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...But it wouldn't be something we could publicly crow about.
Hey, FatherXmas! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arMtFxv7jlw) :P
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DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO...
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=imageshack.com%2Fa%2Fimg594%2F6087%2Fjjjspiderman.jpg)
NEXT YEAR IN PARAGON!!!!
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ALSO AT THE SKI CHALET!!!!!
DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO THERE EITHER!!!
EXCLAMATION!!!!!!!!
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Don't tell me what TonyV can't do! ;D
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NCsoft doesn't have to be involved to get City back. THE City. OUR City.
True in a way. The city was just a place, a thing. Things can be replaced. We are the city. The players who made it our home for so many years.
Thanks for pointing that out.
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True in a way. The city was just a place, a thing. Things can be replaced. We are the city. The players who made it our home for so many years.
Thanks for pointing that out.
That's definitely not what I was pointing out and you know it. lol
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Yeah! You tell him Aggela-- Wait, what?
DID HE JUST CALL US "THINGS"?
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NCsoft doesn't have to be involved to get City back. THE City. OUR City.
That's definitely not what I was pointing out and you know it. lol
Don't tell me you are one of those who believe NCSOFT can be forced to capitulate their IP to someone else?
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Don't tell me you are one of those who believe NCSOFT can be forced to capitulate their IP to someone else?
Hell, no. But we don't need NCsoft to get our city back.
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If we get the original back, whether as an MMO or as a standalone, then "Hurray!".
Personally, I'm savoring the thought of at least one of the successors giving me something that enables me to say, "NCSoft can go suck a grenade; I have THIS."
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Don't tell me you are one of those who believe NCSOFT can be forced to capitulate their IP to someone else?
It's easy enough to posit a number of situations that would compel NCSoft to cough up the IP for CoH -- and even the backups of the servers and codebase, if it still exists -- to someone else. That the CoH playerbase would be able to acquire the resources that would be required to put NCSoft in that position is what is unbelievable.
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It's easy enough to posit a number of situations that would compel NCSoft to cough up the IP for CoH -- and even the backups of the servers and codebase, if it still exists -- to someone else. That the CoH playerbase would be able to acquire the resources that would be required to put NCSoft in that position is what is unbelievable.
yeah if NCSOFT still choose to do so. In theory they could probably release all of that for free. Into to compel someone you must find out what would compel them, which caries from situation to situation person to perons business to business corporation to corpoeration. I.E. Saying "Give me the code I'll give you ten million." Some companies will fly out a dude that day/or fly you in, with first class seats to see what the deal is about. Others wont even bothering to replying to the request.
You are right though, I'm not sure if the playerbase would be able to aquire the "resources" that would compel them.
Remember even if a company go bankrupt it doesnt mean their prpoerty is automatically divied up. There are many defunct products even when a company go through bankrupt that they hold on. I.E GM. Some brands they own the rights too, havent made in years or sold and in many cases the company holding the rights to brand still havent released product like Crysler still own the rights to the Desoto automobile but havent made one in decades. Maybach, been owned by DaimlerAG for nearly 100 years but prior to 2004, didnt sell a single automobile under the Maybach name since the early 1900s. Although that is also an example of the folly of sitting on unused property too long. When Maybach returned, not many people even knew what Maybach was or that it even existed before. Even GM owns a long list of product they no longer make, some not since 1931, and even when thye needed bailout and went bankrupt and had to reset their stock symbol and stuff, they didnt bother selling much. They killed off a few and sat on it, and more than likely from what it is said, they have no plans to sell the likes of Pontiac or Oldsmobile nor intend to bringing them back anytime soon. Although they tried to sell Hummer but couldnt find "suitable" buyer even though there were offers from private companies and auto manufactures from India and China.
Good thing about ownership-It's mostly yours to do what you please with it within limits of law, whether ya decide to use it or not, which is within the limits of law in majority cases.
Bad thing about ownership-It's the owner to do what they please with within the limits of the law, which sometimes come at the chargin of people that were consumers of said property and wished to continue to use and enjoy said property.
It's even more extreme with software because with hrd products, you can keep what you bought and as long as it's functional ya can keep it even if it's obsolete ot no longer made. Software, it's basically a rental license risk that at any moment that the owner may decide, "ya know what? I think we dont want to offer this anymore." As they said with kickstarter, everything comes with a risk of loss especially when partaking in someone else property.
Frankly, personally, there is no reason for NCSOFT to sell the IP. The fan base of COX declared war with them, so why give the group that declared them enemy anything or even entertain their offers even if they could make one?
Me personally if I had an object someone wanted and at the time I wasnt using but wasnt plan on selling, and the person that made the offer gets pissy and said "F*** you", even if I change my mind later and wanted to sell, it wouldnt be to him or anyone associated with him. In fact, just out of spite, I might dismantle it in front of his eyes and put the pieces in the garage, grab a chair and my Rott. while cell phone in the other hand and dare him to step a toe over the property line and try to steal it. Now if instead he acted civil, if I decided to sale he probably would get first dibs on it if he was still interested and a good price.
But in business it's more professional and they probably just sit on it just because they can and figure eventually everyone will forget or move on. They found that isnt the case mostly after a year, but a year feeling to average human is merely a month in the business world.
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You guys are missing the point Aggelakis is making - with our Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers (SCoRE), we just do it anyway (preferably releasing the source code so that it can't ever be eradicated), and then laugh if NCLimp futilely tries to play Whack-A-Mole stamping it out over the entire internet.
There is no *asking* - we just re-create it - *exactly the way it was before we lost it* (or perhaps with a few improvements here and there).
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I'm with JanessaVR.
NCSoft may as well have been burning books. SCoRE has a way to unburn them? I'm with SCoRE.
I respect people here like FatherXmas who defend NCSoft and its property. I'm not calling them wrong.
I'm just saying that if unburning those books is wrong, then I don't want to be right.
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I'm just saying that if unburning those books is wrong, then I don't want to be right.
Exactly. Screw them - if they don't want it anymore, then we just take it back.
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and then laugh if NCLimp futilely tries to play Whack-A-Mole stamping it out over the entire internet.
Strange mental image of the NCsoft CEO wielding a large cartoonish hammer while CoX signature characters pop in and out of holes in the ground/walls/ceiling.
... I really, really wish I could draw....
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Well tracking people and sources is not as hard as it used to be especially with multiple people gathering in one area.
Whoever do it, better be well prepared and don't get too cocky and over confident and leave no trail, although by talking and bragging about it here, and expressing ya know it's wrong but doing it anyways, is leaving a trail and near automatically kills the "I didn't know it was pirate" defense.
Because if they find the person that release it or any one person tracked down that helped spread it, they might try to hold them responsible for all the damage and try to make an example out of them. They probably wont play whack a mole and probably wont notice as long as who ever does it keep their nose clean, stay low, and stop with the bragging of "We are going to "recreate the code" and spread it around nonsense. It's a like a criminal bragging to all his buddy and showing a tape of the robbery then looking bewildered when they get caught.
It's not even unheard of for music file sharing people to get personally sued. And more people that gather in the area the bigger target it is. And given that it takes years to build a thing like that , from what was said, I think it would highly annoying to have to start over every few months because someone kept blabbing about how they are sticking to the man and giving them a target.
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Personally, I'd be more than happy to upload my copy to a server somewhere and label it "Warehouse Inventory System Test Code." :)
Then I could just invite only the people I know. Of course, I could see having it both ways - a private copy for me & friends quietly hosted somewhere, and a Community Server copy we can move as needed, so as to all get together again.
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- with our Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers (SCoRE),
Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers? I had to reread that. Thought it said Secret Cabal of Rodent Engineers.
Guess I've been playing too many mice themed toons. lol
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Guess I've been playing too many mice themed toons. lol
Disney-itis? ;)
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You guys are missing the point Aggelakis is making - with our Secret Cabal of Reverse Engineers (SCoRE), we just do it anyway (preferably releasing the source code so that it can't ever be eradicated), and then laugh if NCLimp futilely tries to play Whack-A-Mole stamping it out over the entire internet.
There is no *asking* - we just re-create it - *exactly the way it was before we lost it* (or perhaps with a few improvements here and there).
FXmas is doing it on purpose, I'm pretty sure. There's no other way to read my post without deliberately misreading it.
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Personally, I'd be more than happy to upload my copy to a server somewhere and label it "Warehouse Inventory System Test Code." :)
Then I could just invite only the people I know. Of course, I could see having it both ways - a private copy for me & friends quietly hosted somewhere, and a Community Server copy we can move as needed, so as to all get together again.
Something along those lines. Descreet.
Aint no one going to be looking for Warehouse Inventory System Test Code." that I know of. Unless some poor bloke actually hacks in looking to steal warehouse codes and end up highly disappointed.
"Capes? Create a character?Cat girl? Where the frack is the inventory! Man, how am I going to pay off the bookie now?"
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Something along those lines. Descreet.
Aint no one going to be looking for Warehouse Inventory System Test Code." that I know of. Unless some poor bloke actually hacks in looking to steal warehouse codes and end up highly disappointed.
"Capes? Create a character?Cat girl? Where the frack is the inventory! Man, how am I going to pay off the bookie now?"
Could always claim the warehouse system is for a costume company with a create a costume and see how it looks, works, moves, fights service. ;D
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Could always claim the warehouse system is for a costume company with a create a costume and see how it looks, works, moves, fights service. ;D
If that were the case, I would call it Edna Mode's Warehouse Inventory System Test Code.
...and, <Edna Mode>No capes!</Edna Mode> :P
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Exactly. Screw them - if they don't want it anymore, then we just take it back.
...and then disseminate it all over the Internet. Because everyone knows that once you ring a bell.... its pretty hard to un-ring it.
I refuse to buy into scaremongering that NCStupid is going to sue me or anyone for logging onto a private server. Even the millions of dollars CoX generated was not enough for them to care..... but now they'll be stormtroopin across the ocean to kick all our asses and seize our paid for disks? I'd pay a dollar to see that one.
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Heck I'd pay TWO dollars, and sixteen cents.
And some pocket lint.
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I'd pay a foot up their rear when they'd try to take my discs.
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I'm with JanessaVR.
NCSoft may as well have been burning books. SCoRE has a way to unburn them? I'm with SCoRE.
I respect people here like FatherXmas who defend NCSoft and its property. I'm not calling them wrong.
I'm just saying that if unburning those books is wrong, then I don't want to be right.
I'm not defending them. I don't give two shits about them. It's just that they have a legal team that could bankrupt any of us who work on a server emulator without a 2nd thought. I want a game where we can stand proudly in the sun and be written about on MMO sites, not in some dark alley where you need the secret phrase to get by the bouncer at the door. Is that too much to ask?
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I'm not defending them. I don't give two shits about them. It's just that they have a legal team that could bankrupt any of us who work on a server emulator without a 2nd thought. I want a game where we can stand proudly in the sun and be written about on MMO sites, not in some dark alley where you need the secret phrase to get by the bouncer at the door. Is that too much to ask?
Yeah what's the point of going to an emulator blind thinking "I'm untouchable" have people follow and then get shutdown because of some over sight? Wouldn't that be like losing COX over all over again and again and again? Not to mention I think it cost money to run a private server and it can be closed simply because the person run out of cash and or decide he don't want to do it anymore. Which some may charge for access, but then how secure is your credit card information in the hands of these people?
It's like doing business with a drug dealer. Some may be decently honest, but many time you may walk away with a dime bag of corn meal that cost $50 and nearly got you arrested.
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I want a game where we can stand proudly in the sun and be written about on MMO sites, not in some dark alley where you need the secret phrase to get by the bouncer at the door. Is that too much to ask?
YES!
Um...
Yeah... actually, no, it's not.
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It sounds like what the Titan folks are saying is that there are efforts underway to regain access to CoX somehow, and it seems via a method that is not illegal. But I also get the impression it's a plan whose details should not be made public...yet.
If this is the case, Tony et al: is there anything we can do to help right now without having to spill the beans?
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If this is the case, Tony et al: is there anything we can do to help right now without having to spill the beans?
Send Codewalker love PMs.
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I want a game where we can stand proudly in the sun and be written about on MMO sites, not in some dark alley where you need the secret phrase to get by the bouncer at the door. Is that too much to ask?
You're probably asking the wrong guy. I've been pretty open about the fact that I've supported resurrected games in the past. Almost all of those projects exist proudly in the Sun now. One of them is in the clear because the result of bankruptcy and messy liquidation of its publisher left it without ownership (not the kind of luck you should count on). The others crawled underground like worms and built themselves up in the dark until we were all more sure about EA. But there was no shame in what we did. All of those games enjoy expansive, vibrant communities because people were willing to do what needed to be done. If you ever wonder why UO had thousands of well-populated servers at one time (and several dozen high pop shards to this day), it was because dissemination, decentralization and quick expansion was part of the plan from the beginning for the first emulation teams. One of the best defenses is to make the lawyers give up before they start. And it was a good deal for UO players. After the Renaissance and Age of Shadows expansions, those shards became the only way players could play classic era UO (and many other variants), which many considered to be a different game altogether, including many devs. Which is why EA attempted to hire the producer of a classic era emulation shard.
If there is a team working on COH, and the rumors are pretty overt that there is, I have an idea what they're up against, just based on my own past experiences. Probably a good few years just to untangle the code and have something that even resembles Live. But I do think there could be something in a year that resembles, say, a networked Icon; a place where we could all dress up, fly around together or just hang out in the Ski Chalet or something. We can call it peacetime. :P
Whatever it turns out to be, god speed to them. It's worth noting, every reverse-engineered game I've personally seen has been optimized and improved for bug fixes, performance, and quality of life. It always leaves me reeling at just how much shareholders stand in the way of these games, considering the amount of work it takes to improve the long term really requires sacrifices in the short (i.e. quarterly) term. Not an obstacle for player-run servers. Like I said, I respect your principles FatherXmas, but seriously? A secret handshake would be a small price IMO.
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But I do think there could be something in a year that resembles, say, a networked Icon; a place where we could all dress up, fly around together or just hang out in the Ski Chalet or something. We can call it peacetime. :P
You know what? That sounds like a pretty decent way to pass some time while we're waiting for the bigger results. While I tended more towards soloing for the combat stuff, I always enjoyed hanging out with folks and just having fun. Chatting, goofing off with emotes, and costume contests were some of the best times I had in the City. Combine that with load_map and spawn_npc, you could have a few good laughs I'm sure.
I'm sold! I think it would be awesome to see that happen. Coolest chat program ever.
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I argued for just that a month or two ago on the Icon thread - if we can meet online, fly around, and chat - then City is back; the rest is just adding abilities and functions.
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I just want to play again :(
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We all do, Heatstroke.
I'm sure that SCoRE are working as fast as they can, though...
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You're probably asking the wrong guy. I've been pretty open about the fact that I've supported resurrected games in the past. Almost all of those projects exist proudly in the Sun now. One of them is in the clear because the result of bankruptcy and messy liquidation of its publisher left it without ownership (not the kind of luck you should count on). The others crawled underground like worms and built themselves up in the dark until we were all more sure about EA. But there was no shame in what we did. All of those games enjoy expansive, vibrant communities because people were willing to do what needed to be done. If you ever wonder why UO had thousands of well-populated servers at one time (and several dop before they start. And it was a good deal for UO players. After the Renaissance and Age of Shadows expansions, th
If there is a team working on COH, and the rumors are pretty overt that there is, I have an idea what they're up against, just based on my own past experiences. Probably a good few years just to untangle the code and have something that even resembles Live.
A few good years? Why did you have to type that? I was depressed enough at this point :( *heart explodes*
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What I didn't do above is weigh that against my belief that, within the COH/Titan communities, the amount of creative talent and programming skills collectively dwarfs anything I've ever seen since the very first MMORPG was reverse-engineered almost 16 years ago.
There. Feel better now? :)
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You're probably asking the wrong guy. I've been pretty open about the fact that I've supported resurrected games in the past. Almost all of those projects exist proudly in the Sun now. One of them is in the clear because the result of bankruptcy and messy liquidation of its publisher left it without ownership (not the kind of luck you should count on). The others crawled underground like worms and built themselves up in the dark until we were all more sure about EA. But there was no shame in what we did. All of those games enjoy expansive, vibrant communities because people were willing to do what needed to be done. If you ever wonder why UO had thousands of well-populated servers at one time (and several dozen high pop shards to this day), it was because dissemination, decentralization and quick expansion was part of the plan from the beginning for the first emulation teams. One of the best defenses is to make the lawyers give up before they start. And it was a good deal for UO players. After the Renaissance and Age of Shadows expansions, those shards became the only way players could play classic era UO (and many other variants), which many considered to be a different game altogether, including many devs. Which is why EA attempted to hire the producer of a classic era emulation shard.
If there is a team working on COH, and the rumors are pretty overt that there is, I have an idea what they're up against, just based on my own past experiences. Probably a good few years just to untangle the code and have something that even resembles Live. But I do think there could be something in a year that resembles, say, a networked Icon; a place where we could all dress up, fly around together or just hang out in the Ski Chalet or something. We can call it peacetime. :P
Whatever it turns out to be, god speed to them. It's worth noting, every reverse-engineered game I've personally seen has been optimized and improved for bug fixes, performance, and quality of life. It always leaves me reeling at just how much shareholders stand in the way of these games, considering the amount of work it takes to improve the long term really requires sacrifices in the short (i.e. quarterly) term. Not an obstacle for player-run servers. Like I said, I respect your principles FatherXmas, but seriously? A secret handshake would be a small price IMO.
But isn't UO still running to this day and the emulation project started when UO game proper was still in beta in 1997 time period and distributed before the DMCA?
Like some game companies don't seem to mind Emulator private servers or what ever name is assigned, while others seem to dispise them and go after them often like Disney.
and on a side note there have been cases where the company win Blizzard in 2011 was awarded 83 million against Scapegaming. So it's possible that company take action and win and not automatically mean they will lose and it's not worth it. The first rule of war is to never underestimate the enemy. Or is that the second? Well it's one of the important rules. Because the ones that end up in mess are the ones that think they are untouchable, cocky, and think the other side wont do anything. Stay low, keep it quiet, be vigilant, stay on the A game, be vigilant (yeah said it twice as it seems some are approaching this as "Oh they cant do nothing. They wont win" and that is usually when it gets sloppy and get sued and shutdown) and it should be ok.
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That code and all of its branches are long extinct. Closest thing to it is the UOX3 project, but that is more like a distant cousin. (I actually have a family tree around here somewere lol.) Working on your own shard is a fun way to learn JavaScript, btw. :P Projects like Sphere, UOX3, and most notably RunUO (for having a larger population and better code from the ground up than official UO) are getting the full-on turn-the-other-cheek treatment. But that server code is, from the ground up, written from scratch. And there are some other things too, not worth going into here, point being--EA has communicated with the producer of RunUO, and that guy knows what he can and can't do. (Ever wonder why they don't have the Stygian Abyss client?) EA has a horrible evil reputation but at least they live and let live if it's of no consequence to them anyway. COH's fans should be so lucky.
Jaguar, I don't have to tell you that you get a little TL;DR sometimes (I'm guilty as charged too), but that last paragraph you wrote is pure gold.
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That code and all of its branches are long extinct. Closest thing to it is the UOX3 project, but that is more like a distant cousin. (I actually have a family tree around here somewere lol.) Working on your own shard is a fun way to learn JavaScript, btw. :P Projects like Sphere, UOX3, and most notably RunUO (for having a larger population and better code from the ground up than official UO) are getting the full-on turn-the-other-cheek treatment. But that server code is, from the ground up, written from scratch. And there are some other things too, not worth going into here, point being--EA has communicated with the producer of RunUO, and that guy knows what he can and can't do. (Ever wonder why they don't have the Stygian Abyss client?) EA has a horrible evil reputation but at least they live and let live if it's of no consequence to them anyway. COH's fans should be so lucky.
Yup. Heard they did awesome job with that code, the private server builders to the point that even EA was impressed.
Yep I do get wordy. I realize when I keep it short, the nit pickers come out in force (oh what about this what about that, you missed that you missed that) and end up having to explain more in detail anyways, thus I get it out the way as much as possible the first time around. And also I make sure I usually state the main point a few times, one at the beginning, one in the middle, one near the end of the middle, and one at the end, and sometimes once more at the conclusion. That way it's there and if someone miss it, they have 3 or 5 shots to get it. Plus it make it easier to spot people who is merely trying to get a rise and avoid the main point. Because usually even after repeating it a few times they still completely ignore it and if they even read 10%-25% of what I said(say) they would have gotten the just of it. Yet somehow they miss it but curiously still reply as if they know what they are talking about.
And a few times I simply have a lot to say about a subject.
There is always a method to the madness.
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Sorry bro tl;dr.
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J/K ;D
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J/K ;D
Dude! TL/DR. Can you make it any shorter? :P
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Just something I was thinking about, and it may have been discussed at some point with all the other things we have talked about...
I'm all for a private server. I don't see anything wrong with it, since it wouldn't be for making money, and the owner isn't doing anything with it. Through all of this though, NCSoft are painted as the bad guys, and why shouldn't we screw over the bad guys? Except... has anyone asked Posi, or the other devs how THEY feel about a group reverse engineering and putting out a private server of their work? NCSoft may own the rights, but the Devs are the ones who put their lives into the game we love. If Posi came out and said he REALLY doesn't want a reverse engineered private server, would that have any impact on those efforts?
Just one of those random thoughts I had.
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I've only seen this happen once publicly. Now-defunct Westwood Studio's old producer for Earth and Beyond spoke at length in a Massively interview a couple years back about the Earth and Beyond emulator. That means it took about seven years from the point of closure until making public comments. He talked about how great it was to play the game again and how impressed he was with the emulator's dev team--he called them professional and talented.
I know that some of UO's devs used to play on RunUO network's server named Hybrid and liked it a lot. That was less public.
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Just something I was thinking about, and it may have been discussed at some point with all the other things we have talked about...
I'm all for a private server. I don't see anything wrong with it, since it wouldn't be for making money, and the owner isn't doing anything with it. Through all of this though, NCSoft are painted as the bad guys, and why shouldn't we screw over the bad guys? Except... has anyone asked Posi, or the other devs how THEY feel about a group reverse engineering and putting out a private server of their work? NCSoft may own the rights, but the Devs are the ones who put their lives into the game we love. If Posi came out and said he REALLY doesn't want a reverse engineered private server, would that have any impact on those efforts?
Just one of those random thoughts I had.
interesting.
Although usually the point is not to screw over the bad guys but to prevent them from doing crime or else it's just a bad guy screwing over a bad guy which in the end still makes two bad guys.
If a person breaks into a house and steals, the first instinct might be to go to their house and steal their stuff. But what it boils down in law is it's merely two criminals stealing stuff. In the comic world, this can be praised as a heroic act. In the real world, both are the same type of criminal. The Mob (second version, the Black Hand (Mustache Petes) era of the Mob was a different story) genrally kept their activities shooting robbing extrotng each other. Yet, they still were considered criminals even though they probably was doing the world a favor by eliminating other criminals. St Val. day massacre, only mobsters were murked, criminals, theives, murderers, yet Capone and his crew were nto considered heroes. They were considered the same type of criminals as the ones they mowed down in that warehouse even though he (his organization) was know to give to charities, ran soup kitchens, more soup kitchens than the government offered, and fed countless hungry people. Yet and still, he was considered a mobster criminal that was targeted by the DA. If an act si wrong, it's wrong even if done to bad guys. Not saying the server thing is as it seems a lot about HOW it's done. Going back to the house thief. Many times, a person dont report stuff that is stolen, does that mean it isnt stolen? And sometimes people report stuff stolen that wasnt stolen, does it mean the thief automatically took it because they are a criminal and someone want to screw them over? I dont think so in either case.
Although it's easier to get away with screwing over a bad guy than an upstanding citizen but it must be done in a realm where the bad guy is considered a bad guy. Even with the mob, pinch the wrong guy and you might get a free pair of cement shoes while they dont care about the pinching of another guy. In some organizations, as long as you didnt pinch a made guy without being made yourself, you was ok, but in other organizations pinch anyone without the say so, you're a bad guy, even if the person deserved it, end up at the bottom of a lake or worse.
But the mob got away with lot of stuff because they knew the system and knew their way around. If someone want to get away with this server thing, again depending on how they do it, then it's easy. Know what, and be honest, about what you can get away with. If there is uncertaintly, then more recon needs to be done
Copyright excemption-"This exemption encompasses instructional activities relating to a wide variety of subjects, but it does not include performances for recreation or entertainment purposes , even if there is cultural value or intellectual appeal."
And of course more stuff. Know the law find the loopholes. But cant find loopholes if one does not know the law.
Oh and do it fast as possible because tougher more in depth laws are coming down the pipe.
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A few good years? Why did you have to type that? I was depressed enough at this point :( *heart explodes*
"A few good years" certainly beats "NEVERMORE!," don't you think? I do. Something to hope for beats nothing to hope for.
Someone else: I'm all for a private server. I don't see anything wrong with it, since it wouldn't be for making money, and the owner isn't doing anything with it. Through all of this though, NCSoft are painted as the bad guys, and why shouldn't we screw over the bad guys?
NCSoft are not so much "bad" as they are "stupid" or perhaps best of all: "uncaring."
NCSoft has basically told us: "Your stupid game bores us because there are not enough fully-articulated mammary glands + prepubescent girls in it. Yes it makes us millions of dollars a year, but we spit on your millions of dollars. We don't get out of bed in the morning for less than a TRILLION dollars! Game over. Puns intended, hahaha."
I have a very hard time seeing them exercised enough about a private server to do anything, also knowing that being hardasses about this is going to make them look worse than they already do. And they did not exactly come out of this debacle looking good.... they actually damaged the entire MMO genre. Trust has been lost, people are looking over their shoulders. [Can you even imagine what will happen when WoW shuts down? Yikes]
Except... has anyone asked Posi, or the other devs how THEY feel about a group reverse engineering and putting out a private server of their work? NCSoft may own the rights, but the Devs are the ones who put their lives into the game we love. If Posi came out and said he REALLY doesn't want a reverse engineered private server, would that have any impact on those efforts?
Why would Positron or any of the other developers be loyal enough to an ex-employer who chewed them up and spat them out, to even care if this ends up hurting NCSoft somehow? If I were one of them I would be 1. honored that the game population was still in tears A YEAR LATER over the loss of a game that I helped to make. What a HUGE compliment to them that is, really! They made something that people love that much.
and 2. NCSoft has screwed me, the ex-developer over..... so, anything to come of this is pure revenge and mum would be the word in public..... but in my heart I would be all, GET THEM!!!!!!! YEAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
(https://images.weserv.nl/?url=static.wetpaint.me%2Fjersey%2FROOT%2Fphotos%2F310%2Fronnie%2520full%2520fist%2520pump%2520mtv.jpg)
[please excuse Jersey Shore reference.....]
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Except... has anyone asked Posi, or the other devs how THEY feel about a group reverse engineering and putting out a private server of their work? NCSoft may own the rights, but the Devs are the ones who put their lives into the game we love. If Posi came out and said he REALLY doesn't want a reverse engineered private server, would that have any impact on those efforts?
Positron is actually our team lead.
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I'm kidding, he's not associated with our efforts in any way, shape, form, or fashion. I just like to imagine that a bunch of people swallowed their tongues when they read that.
I can't speak for the developers, but if I were one of them, it would piss me off far more having my hard work forever locked away than having some third-party group doing stuff with it where it could still be out there for people to see and enjoy. We're not actively seeking out the help of the former developers, but we're also doing our damned best to treat their work with the respect it deserves.
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. Going back to the house thief. Many times, a person dont report stuff that is stolen, does that mean it isnt stolen? And sometimes people report stuff stolen that wasnt stolen, does it mean the thief automatically took it because they are a criminal and someone want to screw them over? I dont think so in either case...
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But the mob got away with lot of stuff because they knew the system and knew their way around. If someone want to get away with this server thing, again depending on how they do it, then it's easy. Know what, and be honest, about what you can get away with. If there is uncertaintly, then more recon needs to be done
Copyright excemption-"This exemption encompasses instructional activities relating to a wide variety of subjects, but it does not include performances for recreation or entertainment purposes , even if there is cultural value or intellectual appeal."
And of course more stuff. Know the law find the loopholes. But cant find loopholes if one does not know the law.
Oh and do it fast as possible because tougher more in depth laws are coming down the pipe.
If you consider the moral rather than the legal issue, it should be pointed out that there is a REASON for intellectual property law. Intellectual property uses the law of possessions to monetize something that is not traditional property for a purpose... to reward the creator of intellectual work for the act of enriching civilization.
I suggest that if you use IP law to PREVENT the dissemination of IP, you are completely reversing the purpose of the law. Your MORAL right exists so long as you are making the IP publicly available (under whatever terms). If someone is holding IP with no intention of using it further, then it has no MORAL basis to its ownership as it is rather PREVENTING the enrichment of civilization.
But this is moot, with the IP necessary for the game being in the freely distributed client (and as I understand it that was distributed with no express or implied agreement) -- then just as ICON uses that client, so could a server, and as long as that server did not use missions or stories from the original (beyond what is in the client), what rights to the game's IP could be violated?
If a Reverse Engineered game consisted of entirely new missions, AE built lore set up to be assigned by contacts rather than through AE, for example, how is it violating the game IP?
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If you consider the moral rather than the legal issue, it should be pointed out that there is a REASON for intellectual property law. Intellectual property uses the law of possessions to monetize something that is not traditional property for a purpose... to reward the creator of intellectual work for the act of enriching civilization.
I suggest that if you use IP law to PREVENT the dissemination of IP, you are completely reversing the purpose of the law. Your MORAL right exists so long as you are making the IP publicly available (under whatever terms). If someone is holding IP with no intention of using it further, then it has no MORAL basis to its ownership as it is rather PREVENTING the enrichment of civilization.
But this is moot, with the IP necessary for the game being in the freely distributed client (and as I understand it that was distributed with no express or implied agreement) -- then just as ICON uses that client, so could a server, and as long as that server did not use missions or stories from the original (beyond what is in the client), what rights to the game's IP could be violated?
If a Reverse Engineered game consisted of entirely new missions, AE built lore set up to be assigned by contacts rather than through AE, for example, how is it violating the game IP?
In that case you described it's probably not breaking the law that why I stated a couple of time "Depends on how it's done".
But in the case of COX IP, the company haven't stated either way if they are intending to use it for the future or not, it was just assumed by some that they are not even though they didn't say and probably wouldn't publically release a statement for us in that regards either. So right now, I don't think no one can factually say they have no plans for the IP and thus may not be preventing enrichment of civilization although I think it would be a stretch especially in the court of law trying to demonstrate how COX IP non-releasement is detrimental to the enrichment of civilization. But I get the point and they haven't said either way so whether or not they will use the IP is factually unknown outside NCSOFT.
LAw is usually written and defined with the meaning or definitions being argued. Morals vary person to person and thus sometimes morals and laws don't go hand in hand. It would be morally right for someone to donate a car they are not using. But legally, they cant be forced to donate the car whether or not they are using the vehicle or not regardless of how many neighbors are riding the bus.
See if one is not using their IP, which was designed so people could get rewarded for their work and get compensated, then they are not making money. Thus should they be forced to give it up? In this situation, many will say yes in a heart beat. But in law, you have to think about the bigger picture and just not NCSOFT. Everything from movies, some IP that haven't been marketed in decades but the holder of rights are sitting on it for what ever reason, to upstarts with a bright idea and new way of doing something that register their IP only to lose all their hard work to major corporations because they didn't have the fund to use it.
I guarantee ya, while in short sight it looks like being forced to give up rights that not in use, in this case only a year, looks like it will benefit the common people, in fact it will bring ruin and their ideas will be usurped in mass by major corporations that have the money to put on a token marketing to keep it without paying the creator of the IP a single penny. Thus nullifying the entire purpose of IP protection for anyone that don't have millions hanging about thus in the end corporations like NCSOFT will get even more powerful with IP hording. And more than likely they probably just bounce it around among their buddies to reset the clock each time which the common man probably don't have the cash to pull that without risking everything they worked on.
While there are downsides to the current way, I think ownership rights should not be taken away. If one manage to built a server without using trademarks, IP, copyright materials and etc, they have nothing to worry about and it will be great. But it would be foolish to think there is zero chance that nothing will happen if they steal the whole shebang. Something might not happen at all, but the risk is still there.
If Morals over ruled law, then there would be not a single homeless starving person inside this country while other have billions while getting away with paying the people that do most of the work barely enough to survive. But legally they can do that. Morally they shouldn't. It might seem Morally right to pull a Robin Hood on them and give to the needy, but as I said, morals vary as many may view that as robbing people who worked hard to get where they are at while rewarding people that didn't work as hard. Moralality is like a double bladed sword. Each side think their side are the better morality. Unfortunately, sometimeso ne side have bit more greenbacks to give their morals an upper edge. And someone may that in itself is morality wrong. I think in a way it is.
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Positron is actually our team lead.
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I'm kidding, he's not associated with our efforts in any way, shape, form, or fashion. I just like to imagine that a bunch of people swallowed their tongues when they read that.
I can't speak for the developers, but if I were one of them, it would piss me off far more having my hard work forever locked away than having some third-party group doing stuff with it where it could still be out there for people to see and enjoy. We're not actively seeking out the help of the former developers, but we're also doing our damned best to treat their work with the respect it deserves.
OK, your first comment made me laugh out loud. :)
Honestly, I doubt that the Devs would be too concerned with a private server, but still, it was one of those things that popped into my head. I don't think that the devs have any loyalty to NCSoft. NCSoft doesn't even come into the equation in my head for what I was asking about. Mostly I was just wondering how many people have thought about the Devs as opposed to NCSoft. CoX is really THEIR work, not NCSoft.
Like I said, I personally don't see anything wrong with these efforts, especially at this point in the process. Pretty much all good faith options have been tried and ignored or declined. I really doubt that Posi would have anything bad to say about the project, though it is probably unlikely that he, or any of the other devs would PUBLICLY make a statement in support of it.
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I doubt that they could publically support it, not if they want to remain hireable in the industry, and they want to keep their current jobs. I doubt most gaming companies are that fond of the idea of private servers.
What this ought to do is make them think: "I don't want my game reverse-engineered, so perhaps I ought to go all hog-wild and NOT throw down the gauntlet in the direction of my current paying customers....?" but NAAAAAAAAAH that would make way too much sense. Its not about customer service and goodwill these days, its all about telling people "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" over an elastic good.
Nope gaming companies, you can only get draconian over INELASTIC goods. Not elastic ones. 8)