Author Topic: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.  (Read 5584 times)

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« on: August 10, 2014, 09:23:04 PM »
Is it really possible to turn a Defender into an AV killer? Any opinions as to whether this char would be able to go big game hunting solo?

This is a Nature Affinity/Beam Rifle character, that I think just might fit the bill.

Some of the features I can see with this build is near capped damage (+151% damage bonus) that can effectively go past that cap due to disintegrate.
A cast free snipe.
57% ranged Defense half the time (Power Boosted available every 28 seconds).
Perma Overgrowth.
All the standard buff/debuff/heal madness that is expected from a NA character.
stuns and holds all over the place.

Only real weakness I see is no status protection, so I'd be eating BF brand cereal.

Have a look and tell me what you think.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.96
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Nature Affinity
Secondary Power Set: Beam Rifle
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Corrosive Enzymes -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Single Shot -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(34), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Apoc-Dmg(46)
Level 2: Wild Growth -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(3), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(3), Numna-Heal(5), Numna-Heal/Rchg(5), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 4: Cutting Beam -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg(21), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(21), Posi-Dmg/Rng(23), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23)
Level 6: Spore Cloud -- DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(11), DarkWD-ToHitDeb(11), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(50)
Level 8: Lifegiving Spores -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(9)
Level 10: Disintegrate -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(13), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(15), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 12: Wild Bastion -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg(13)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(46), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 16: Regrowth -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(17)
Level 18: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 20: Lancer Shot -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(25), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 22: Hover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(31), Krma-ResKB(31)
Level 26: Entangling Aura -- Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(27), Lock-%Hold(27), Lock-Rchg/Hold(29), Lock-Acc/Hold(29), Lock-Acc/Rchg(34)
Level 28: Penetrating Ray -- OvForce-Acc/Dmg(A), OvForce-Acc/Dmg/End(36), OvForce-Dmg/End/Rech(36), OvForce-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(36), OvForce-Dam/KB(37)
Level 30: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Overgrowth -- AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(33), AdjTgt-Rchg(33), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(33), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx(34)
Level 35: Piercing Beam -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(37), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Posi-Dam%(40)
Level 38: Overcharge -- Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(39), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(39), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Ragnrk-Knock%(40)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(42), ImpArm-ResDam(42), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(45)
Level 44: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 47: Summon Mistress -- C'Arms-Acc/Dmg(A), C'Arms-Dmg/EndRdx(48), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), C'Arms-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Soul Storm -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(9)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-End%(7), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(50)
Level 50: Agility Radial Paragon
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Ageless Radial Epiphany
Level 50: Vanguard Radial Superior Ally
Level 50: Support Radial Embodiment
------------



Code: [Select]
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1570;729;1458;HEX;|
|78DA6594CB4F135114C6EFB453B0A5D0425BDE889462A194A115D4A511501303044|
|1DD18D38C302D93D4B6E9230177FE0BBAD08DF270EF4605E2DA7F40458389F2505C|
|FAD8A8A831F574CE47DBA4934C7E67BE7BCF39DFDC7B672616C6EC8F2FDC3E23A4B|
|AD1B89AC944C6B4A89698D3D2960935A6CF8AC2554D77C7A11E19C945A3CAA49ACD|
|A5B5C8D968544FE8D9C5D6E2E8B49A886973CA88A6DE8C4CEBD1B8261C53C9645C1|
|9D7541ACECCEB299BF13C93D2B4B91A233C1FD763F359FBE1B4949E88B59D4BE9B3|
|CA68329DCEA5B2C9746426998B4726D44C564B2F36939B41BA5F760B5C79215A096|
|1597C70173559844D86D635C80C28CC6088391064BEA63A9264E458A461C9D04C21|
|30CC94AF8033CCAACBCC1DEA67463FF306C1250BF713F6E27ECA6C5C03D7999BD4C|
|FC2FDCC960DF6607B0EAE31C3EBCC3734B79AE74AD5F070041E76A9B715BEAD0FB8|
|B6FD21B36E095C663A57980DABCCB754B7867D4B35A86B47DD7ADAEE5AAE6BAAF5B|
|036E0069DCC5794EF40BE03F9CE4B4C2FE5D7C3737D3FFA821FC9B38BF32C2E786E|
|86E76678EE83E7003C07E0D94A753DA8EB81AFA3F0D348634DF0DCF4AF705C69EC7|
|0CE013F6F91E716AC57CB01AF6FEB6FF00FB3FD17F80367E727F313F96EC33EB7BD|
|371B5AF736B803EE327D7BCC06F2D4C1FD444717BFC33BF2D0C99ADCB9CCB58F2D8|
|18FC015F45E65EE536F2F7A7B71B67C385BBE674C3FCE967F83F999727A90D333CC|
|758E9F0487C0534CFF69E602D9EEC5B9EC2D2C26AD59DF097E97BEC2809FBE1D1F7|
|3DF2E443FF6A21F7B1B046F518AC2BDCDCAB6C9A833B803EE827BCC459A1BC2390A|
|6DB216DE62B6CB65DF779E2E11A85042154AB84219AA50862B94F10A65B2A0F01BE|
|6A76484342A19A35667F1BBCF7FB115FF1F42EAE635F856D224E92ABEDB8BBC765F|
|CBE7F7F2FCEF25CD24DDE1FDA8BA877FC15DE6DF46021C05DDA578CB558AA76C858|
|E1C5F2F8BD5B2F846597CBF2CF79AA714BFF096E2FF9A030A1D|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Power Gamer

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,866
  • Reaching troubled youth...one Hellion at a time!
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2014, 10:13:45 PM »
Nice  :o
It takes a village to raise a child. And it takes a villain to explain the value of lunch money.

-Random CoHer: "Why does the sky turn green during Rikti invasions?"
-Me:"Rikti Monkey farts"
-Random CoHer: "I'm going to you for all my questions from now on!"

blacksly

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2014, 11:26:21 PM »
It is most certainly possible to build AV-killers from just about every AT. I generally don't plan building any character who cannot solo an AV when maxed out near level 50, unless it's a pure teaming support character.

Beam Rifle is one of the best, if not the best, anti-AV blast set. Its DoT attacks and -Regen are balanced around the totality of a character's lifestyle including a lot of non-AV fights, but are best against AVs.

Nature Affinity is certainly not the best anti-AV buff/debuff set... that would probably be either Traps or Dark Miasma. But it's pretty good, with a bit of all kinds of debuffs as well as several solid self-buffs. It should be able to stand in front of an AV as long as it's supported with some Ranged & AoE defense set bonuses, and it should be able to beat an AV's regeneration rate as long as it's paired with a solid blast set.

One thing I'm not liking is the lack of a real travel power. But some players do manage to play without a high-speed travel power and not miss it much.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2014, 12:24:14 AM »
It is most certainly possible to build AV-killers from just about every AT. I generally don't plan building any character who cannot solo an AV when maxed out near level 50, unless it's a pure teaming support character.

Beam Rifle is one of the best, if not the best, anti-AV blast set. Its DoT attacks and -Regen are balanced around the totality of a character's lifestyle including a lot of non-AV fights, but are best against AVs.

Nature Affinity is certainly not the best anti-AV buff/debuff set... that would probably be either Traps or Dark Miasma. But it's pretty good, with a bit of all kinds of debuffs as well as several solid self-buffs. It should be able to stand in front of an AV as long as it's supported with some Ranged & AoE defense set bonuses, and it should be able to beat an AV's regeneration rate as long as it's paired with a solid blast set.

One thing I'm not liking is the lack of a real travel power. But some players do manage to play without a high-speed travel power and not miss it much.

I wanted to get a travel power in there too, but was sacrificing lots to get the perma overgrowth.

This build concept is an outgrowth of a NA/DP I had going before D-day. I started looking over BR and saw the damage potential. Truth be told, I'm still not sure which is better. The addition of chem round -Dam to the overall build gives it a sense of unkillability that is hard to pass on.

As far as Dark and Traps being better for AV hunting, I did look at both for a defender AV hunter. In the final analysis, I liked the overall additions from NA.
The biggest advantage over Dark Miasma, for me, is the to hit buff which allows for the snipe to trigger easily (no interrupt). That, the Damage increase and the ease of healing beats out the added -tohit and double Tar Patch.
For Traps, the picture was more murky. Traps offers a lot and there's no denying it. However, it does take an appreciable amount of set up time to do things like toe bomb or use Poison Trap and it requires being in melee. I really like the combination of -Dam and resists that can be enhanced in the NA set.

Appreciate the input blacksly.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

blacksly

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2014, 02:43:07 AM »
I like both DM and Traps over NA as overall anti-AV sets. However, as your build points out, they both do not give +ToHit buffs, which means that they will not take advantage of the no-interrupt Snipe powers. It is possible on a Defender to run Tactics (6-slotted with Gaussian) and the Kismet IO to make up for that, but not on a Corruptor. If you're running a Corruptor and you want a fast Snipe build, then neither DM nor Traps are a good fit. If you're running a Defender, you could get fast-Snipe using Tactics/Kismet, but it would require a good amount of moving slots around.

Lastly, as a side note, I would generally consider Beam Rifle as the last set that has a Snipe where I really would care to build for a permanent fast-Snipe build. The reason is just that BR is pretty heavily focused on single-target damage already, so it doesn't really gain as much from adding a fast Snipe into the build, as would other sets that are weak in single-target damage like AR, Electric, Dark Blast, or Energy. This doesn't mean that it can't benefit from a fast-Snipe, just that if I made an AR or DB or Electric or Energy Blast character, I would really try to make sure that the AT and other set somehow create a permanent fast-Snipe ability. Whereas for a BR character, it's far less important because they already have a good deal of single-target damage without using the Snipe.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2014, 10:51:36 PM »
I like both DM and Traps over NA as overall anti-AV sets. However, as your build points out, they both do not give +ToHit buffs, which means that they will not take advantage of the no-interrupt Snipe powers. It is possible on a Defender to run Tactics (6-slotted with Gaussian) and the Kismet IO to make up for that, but not on a Corruptor. If you're running a Corruptor and you want a fast Snipe build, then neither DM nor Traps are a good fit. If you're running a Defender, you could get fast-Snipe using Tactics/Kismet, but it would require a good amount of moving slots around.

Lastly, as a side note, I would generally consider Beam Rifle as the last set that has a Snipe where I really would care to build for a permanent fast-Snipe build. The reason is just that BR is pretty heavily focused on single-target damage already, so it doesn't really gain as much from adding a fast Snipe into the build, as would other sets that are weak in single-target damage like AR, Electric, Dark Blast, or Energy. This doesn't mean that it can't benefit from a fast-Snipe, just that if I made an AR or DB or Electric or Energy Blast character, I would really try to make sure that the AT and other set somehow create a permanent fast-Snipe ability. Whereas for a BR character, it's far less important because they already have a good deal of single-target damage without using the Snipe.

While I appreciate the value that DM brings to the overall game, I do question some of its value in an AV fight. FYI, my main was a Dark/Dark defender for several years.
Yes the -res (-60% DM, -25% NA) and -regen (-1000% half the time DM, -150% NA) are very useful, but the rule of 85 limits the usefulness of it's -tohit. -Tohit is an effectively Defensive stat which means when you are hit it's for full damage. Fluffy really helps here, but I prefer to be more sure of the numbers.

To me, the more interesting power is the -Dam in Darkest night (37.5%). Even with the rule of 85 in place, the -Dam is still effectively adding several points to your resistances (5.6%).

That's one of the reasons I think that NA can provide a very good baseline for an AV killer. I can get and effective resistance on an AV for ~31% to all damage types before adding shields. Those are pretty good numbers when adding all the healing (Absorb/regen/Hots).
Not to mention the 82.5% +Dam, 30% tohit and 2.31% End/sec.

And as I said before, Traps is more difficult to predict. It adds damage which makes the evaluation strange. It's buffs and debuffs and healing are all lesser than can be offered by either DM or NA, but it does have a capacity to immob. most AVs. That and the damage are the two biggest advantages.

Also, if I remember correctly, didn't the snipe guarantee the spread of Disintegrate? I remember that there was only a chance of spread depending on what power you used. That makes the quick snipe a pretty valuable asset for a set that's limited in aoe damage.
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

blacksly

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 02:38:49 AM »
While I appreciate the value that DM brings to the overall game, I do question some of its value in an AV fight. FYI, my main was a Dark/Dark defender for several years.
Yes the -res (-60% DM, -25% NA) and -regen (-1000% half the time DM, -150% NA) are very useful, but the rule of 85 limits the usefulness of it's -tohit. -Tohit is an effectively Defensive stat which means when you are hit it's for full damage. Fluffy really helps here, but I prefer to be more sure of the numbers.

To me, the more interesting power is the -Dam in Darkest night (37.5%). Even with the rule of 85 in place, the -Dam is still effectively adding several points to your resistances (5.6%).

You got it almost perfectly right. Yes, the -ToHit in DM is not nearly as useful against AVs. However, look at this page: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archvillain_Resistance
What you see is that AVs do NOT resist Damage Debuffs. Therefore, a set that specializes in Damage Debuff is a great defensive set against AVs, and I don't think that anyone does it better than DM. Note that an AV's resistance to a damage type will also resist damage debuffs of that type... so an AV with 50% damage resist to Smashing will resist Smashing Damage Debuffs by 50%. This where DM moves ahead of Kinetics, because it puts out -Resist, which makes its -Damage more effective.
So you're right in your thinking, but you didn't know that AVs do not resist -Damage, which is why DM is so strong against them defensively.

Quote
And as I said before, Traps is more difficult to predict. It adds damage which makes the evaluation strange. It's buffs and debuffs and healing are all lesser than can be offered by either DM or NA, but it does have a capacity to immob. most AVs. That and the damage are the two biggest advantages.

The Poison Trap in Traps gives -1000% Regeneration, and it is easily made permanent. Even with the AV's resistance to Regeneration Debuffs, that still shuts down any AV's (or GM's) Regeneration. That's the real anti-AV strength of Traps, not the rest of its abilities (which aren't bad, but not great either).

Quote
Also, if I remember correctly, didn't the snipe guarantee the spread of Disintegrate? I remember that there was only a chance of spread depending on what power you used. That makes the quick snipe a pretty valuable asset for a set that's limited in aoe damage.
Yes. It's not an anti-AV option, but for general gameplay, it does help. I never ran Beam Rifle, so I don't really know how much that spread adds to AoE damage. If it's significant, then the Snipe becomes a lot more useful for BR as a means of quasi-AoE damage, rather than as a means of improving its already-strong single-target chain.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 03:59:18 AM »
Thanks for the great information blacksly. Really helpful.

You got it almost perfectly right. Yes, the -ToHit in DM is not nearly as useful against AVs. However, look at this page: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archvillain_Resistance
What you see is that AVs do NOT resist Damage Debuffs. Therefore, a set that specializes in Damage Debuff is a great defensive set against AVs, and I don't think that anyone does it better than DM. Note that an AV's resistance to a damage type will also resist damage debuffs of that type... so an AV with 50% damage resist to Smashing will resist Smashing Damage Debuffs by 50%. This where DM moves ahead of Kinetics, because it puts out -Resist, which makes its -Damage more effective.
So you're right in your thinking, but you didn't know that AVs do not resist -Damage, which is why DM is so strong against them defensively.

This is vaguely coming back to me. So, in your example, with NA/BR being able to put out 45% -Res it would resist -Dam by only 5%?
That would make its effective resistance be 79.5% since it gets a 23.1% resistance from Wild Growth.
For a Dark/BR, it puts out 80% -Res and has a -Dam of 50%. Its effective resistance is 50% or 80% (if it allows negatives in the calc)?

If it's the 80% (I suspect it is) then this becomes a basic wash for Dark vs. NA. They just go about it in different ways.

This leaves us with a 350% -Regen (up about half time) and the 15% -Res advantage for DM... and all the -tohit.
NA attemps to make up for this with all the heal type numbers, it's end gain and the whopping 82.5% +Dam in it's tier 9.


The Poison Trap in Traps gives -1000% Regeneration, and it is easily made permanent. Even with the AV's resistance to Regeneration Debuffs, that still shuts down any AV's (or GM's) Regeneration. That's the real anti-AV strength of Traps, not the rest of its abilities (which aren't bad, but not great either).

I see that. With Hasten it's almost there. Traps/BR can actually pump out a really impressive 1225% -regen.

While NA/BR can only get a 375% -regen (mostly from the BR side).

The question becomes what is the regen rate of an AV or GM? I am assuming that the floor on this is actually at 0.

Yes. It's not an anti-AV option, but for general gameplay, it does help. I never ran Beam Rifle, so I don't really know how much that spread adds to AoE damage. If it's significant, then the Snipe becomes a lot more useful for BR as a means of quasi-AoE damage, rather than as a means of improving its already-strong single-target chain.

From the numbers I saw in the creator, it looks like the Disintegrate spread damage itself is not much and it only goes to 3 different baddies. The thing is you get a damage increase (BR powers) on anything you hit that has Disintegrate going. So it adds up fast.


Well this proves that I'm a true geek. I'm having a lot of fun crunching/discussing these numbers with you. :)
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

blacksly

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 11:42:14 AM »
AV regeneration is about 95 HP/sec at level 50. Assuming some Resistance to damage, and covering for misses and such, you want a minimum of 150 DPS to solo one. A full (-100%) Regen debuff on them takes care of 95 of that 150 DPS, and it's also not affected by Damage Resistance. Your assumption is correct, you cannot have negative Regeneration. One problem is that BR's -Regen added with Traps end up superfluous... if you have enough Recharge in Poison Gas Trap to keep it permanent (which is a lot easier than you think... the poison gas lasts for 30 seconds, BUT the debuffs from it last for 10 seconds, which means that its total debuff duration is actually 40 seconds), then the AV doesn't regenerate whether or not you're using Beam Rifle.

Dark Melee puts out a lot more than -50% Damage, because you get:
1: Darkest Night
2: Fluffy's Darkest Night (as good as yours)
3: Twilight Grasp (-10 for 20 seconds, stackable)
4: Fluffy's Twilight Grasp (same, with usually about a 15 second cycle time, so he averages about -12% damage long term)

If you cast Twilight Grasp once in a 10-second cycle, it heals, does "damage" since it stops about 150 HPs from being regenerated during its debuff duration, and averages -20% damage. Total -Damage with the above stacking is about -90% base, before multipliers for the AV's resistance and for -Resist. Note that for Beam Rifle this is a little more difficult since it causes regular re-draw. On the plus side, Twilight Grasp is "adjustable"... if you're taking noticeable damage you can use it more often, and if you're not, you can stick to shooting.

-Resist debuffs do not stack with damage Resistance... if an AV has 50% resistance and you hit it with a -50% resist debuff, the resistance lowers damage (and Damage Debuffs) by 50%, and the -Resist debuff increases damage by 50%. So you end up with Damage = Base * 0.50 * 1.50 = Base *0.75.

I personally also love number-crunching, and in CoH soloing AVs is the main test for number-crunching. Well, there is the Pylon test also, but I find that to be too limited, since the Pylon only does Smash/Lethal damage with no debuffs or controls, so it's not nearly as difficult a defensive test as "soloing most AVs including those with debuffs and controls". Note that "soloing ALL AVs that you meet in solo story arcs" is also possible, but far FAR harder, since there are a few that cause special problems and are very hard to solo.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 10:00:48 PM »
If an AV regenerates at 95 HP/Sec, then his regen rate would have to be ~1994%. I did this calc using a regen scrappers percentages in mids.
Assuming my calculation is correct and we have full uptime on all powers involved:
A Traps/BR combo would nullify about 68 HP/Sec. (1225% -Regen)
A Dark/BR combo would nullify about 43 HP/Sec. (775% -Regen)
A NA/BR combo would nullify about 18 HP/Sec. (325% -Regen)
These numbers seem to work with what I've witnessed in-game.

So this all means that with this NA/BR, I need to be able to process an additional 132 DPS. Single Shot all boosted up is getting 191.8 DPS. Looks like it's an AV killer. :)


I had to bring up Fluffy in Paragon Wiki after your post. I knew about all his powers except his DK.
Adding his contributions in I see how he adds seriously to the -Dam situation. Do you know if he keeps his DK on throughout the fight?
If so, then the -Dam king of the game would be a Dark/DP defender using Chem rounds with ~127%.
Interestingly, a Bio/KM/Soul tanker can pump out 75% to 82% -Dam depending on attack chain.

 
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

blacksly

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2014, 12:38:20 AM »
As a note, an AV has a regeneration rate of 100%. The reason that they regenerate so high is their high base HPs. Note that if you have a character with no Regen bonus, and increase that character's maximum HPs, their Regeneration rate in HP/sec increases even if their Regeneration rate as a % remains at 100%. So what you need to shut down an AV's Regen is -100% (after the AV's debuff resistance). Assuming 85% debuff resistance (at level 50), you need -667% Regeneration debuff before the AV's modifier.

As far as I know, Dark Servant keeps both Chill of the Night and Darkest Night active at all times (in an AV fight, at least... in other fights, it will naturally drop Darkest Night when its toggle anchor is killed).

Also, another thing to remember: I really like Dark Miasma for -Damage because it also puts out a good amount of stackable -Resist, which helps the -Damage punch through the AV's own Damage Resistance. Kinetic can put out a comparable amount of -Damage, but because it lacks -Resist, it's not as consistent against all AVs. Same thing for a Kinetic Melee character... they can put out base -Damage, but they can't boost it with the -Resist that Dark Miasma can. Cold Domination is pretty solid due to the stackable -Resist combined with a -Damage debuff, but I really think that the top -Damage debuffer might be a Demon Summoning/Dark Miasma MM, since the Demons and the MM's attacks stack up to around a -60% resist debuff, which seems to more than make up for the lower debuff numbers that a MM uses.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2014, 02:03:46 AM »
As a note, an AV has a regeneration rate of 100%. The reason that they regenerate so high is their high base HPs. Note that if you have a character with no Regen bonus, and increase that character's maximum HPs, their Regeneration rate in HP/sec increases even if their Regeneration rate as a % remains at 100%. So what you need to shut down an AV's Regen is -100% (after the AV's debuff resistance). Assuming 85% debuff resistance (at level 50), you need -667% Regeneration debuff before the AV's modifier.

As far as I know, Dark Servant keeps both Chill of the Night and Darkest Night active at all times (in an AV fight, at least... in other fights, it will naturally drop Darkest Night when its toggle anchor is killed).

Also, another thing to remember: I really like Dark Miasma for -Damage because it also puts out a good amount of stackable -Resist, which helps the -Damage punch through the AV's own Damage Resistance. Kinetic can put out a comparable amount of -Damage, but because it lacks -Resist, it's not as consistent against all AVs. Same thing for a Kinetic Melee character... they can put out base -Damage, but they can't boost it with the -Resist that Dark Miasma can. Cold Domination is pretty solid due to the stackable -Resist combined with a -Damage debuff, but I really think that the top -Damage debuffer might be a Demon Summoning/Dark Miasma MM, since the Demons and the MM's attacks stack up to around a -60% resist debuff, which seems to more than make up for the lower debuff numbers that a MM uses.

OK. I think I got the -Regen covered. I didn't know about the ceiling on it either. I've never taken that close a look at it. Makes sense now.
That leaves my NA/BR build here being able to come close to halving the AV regen rate.

Also, good to know about the DN on Fluffy.

As for the -Dam, that was the only stat I was looking at and not the overall AV-ability of the char.
Yes, -Resist will help punch through, but I was only looking at -Dam.

I'm starting to see why you say Dark is superior.

The only real question left is how +Dam equates with -Resist and that would probably be based on the particular AV.
Since there doesn't appear to be a floor for -Resist, it leaves me thinking that by itself, it would probably beat out +Dam... and yeah, I get it that +Dam gets stymied by resistance.

My time playing a Dark fender was during the early days of the game and I wasn't as familiar with the set as I thought.

Never played a Demon MM (for long), I knew there were some -res in the attacks, but was unaware of the -res in the pet attacks. Interesting.


I'm learning. :)



Cogito, Ergo... eh?

blacksly

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2014, 02:48:49 PM »
Quote
The only real question left is how +Dam equates with -Resist and that would probably be based on the particular AV.
Since there doesn't appear to be a floor for -Resist, it leaves me thinking that by itself, it would probably beat out +Dam... and yeah, I get it that +Dam gets stymied by resistance.

Neither +Dam nor -Resist are affected by which AV you face. It sounds counterintuitive, but it's because -Resist is not literally a lowering of the target's Damage Resistance. Instead, it is a multiplier on the damage that the target takes.

You hit an AV with an attack for 100 damage: it takes 100.
Now, the AV has 30% Resist: it takes 70 damage.
Now, you put a -50% Resist on the AV: it takes 105 damage (100 * 0.7 * 1.50)
You would THINK that the 30 Resist and the 50% -Resist would sum together, and end up with a Resistance of -20%, so the AV would take 120 damage, but because Resistance and Resistance Debuffs are actually multiplied rather than added, it turns out that a 50% -Resist increases damage by 1.5 against every target out there.

As for the value of +Dam vs -Resist, I generally consider +Dam as equivalent to half its value in actual damage increase. The reason is that most of your attacks are generally going to be slotted to about 1.9 damage, or a bit more (compared to an unslotted attack). Rounding that off, you're usually doing 200% of the attack's base damage. Adding a +20% damage modifier changes your damage from 200% to 220%, which is a 1.1 multiplier. So a .2 damage buff increases actual damage by .1.

It's actually a bit higher since you're not usually slotted all the way to 200%, but on the other hand, +Dam does not increase Proc damage, while -Resist does. So, as a rule of thumb, saying that +80 damage is reasonably equivalent to -40 Resistance, works for me.

-Resistance does have a cap. I don't recall offhand, but it's either 300% (for a 4x damage multiplier) or 400% (for a 5x damage multiplier). You don't reach it solo even with a Cold/Sonic Defender, but it is possible to cap -Resist on teams.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2014, 04:47:59 PM »
Good concept on the whole +Dam vs. -Res thing.

I can "dig" the math on it too. Sorry, I saw a single episode of the Mod Squad a few weeks ago and that term is kind of sticking with me right now.

This makes the NA contribution from this (+Dam and -Res) 66% against a single target and 86% for the NA/BR combo. That's a pretty good contribution and makes me happy with the thought of playing this character combo.

The single biggest issue I have with the NA set is that it's taking 211% global recharge to get Overgrowth (the +tohit, +Dam power) to mostly perma status.

Now to see if I can get a Defender farmer built.

Overall, I think this has been a great conversation about a game that currently does not exist. :)
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

blacksly

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 513
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2014, 09:50:27 PM »
Theorycrafting build passes the time.

One note on your build... you say that it was tight to get the global recharge for Overgrowth. I assume that the main reason that you want Overgrowth permanent is for perma-fastSnipe. If that is the case, then consider changing the build:
Get Tactics instead of Maneuvers, and 6-slot it with Gaussian. A Defender with that and Kismet's +ToHit IO has perma-fastSnipe in any case. You lose just a bit of defense and it takes 3 more slots (but you can drop 1 out of Combat Jumping), but it does free up the build a lot more when you don't have to try for perma-Overgrowth.

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2014, 11:12:22 PM »
The real reason the build is so tight is that I was getting greedy about the +Dam bonus. The lamentable part of that is a lot of the recharge happens with Incarnates. In particular most ranged chars benefit hugely from Clarion Radial Epiphany but I went Ageless for the +rech.

This character really started as a NA/DP leveraging as much -Dam as I could get in a set. Then I saw all the goodies in BR and started thinking about that.

+Dam is a stat I keep in mind for all my builds because I'm an Offender at heart. Always looking to play a defender and never wanting to be one who ignores the offensive side of it.
So, when I saw 82% +Dam my mind exploded and I went to work on getting it to a permanent status.
Side note: This is much easier to attain with a NA/Water (you can place several Kismet +rech).

I usually pick sets by looking at the secondary effects and seeing what I can leverage. Then seeing if there's any reasonable way to make him kill all skulls. :)
Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Ankhammon

  • Elite Boss
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2014, 01:58:44 AM »
Thought I would run up a quick NA/Water to show you what I mean.

Notice the Kismet +rech in there. Based on my previous experience with a Rad/nrg it should be close to perma Overload when you need it most.

Also note the less than inspiring single target damage. Not really optimal for big game hunting (AVs).

Still, might have made a decent farmer type.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.96
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Nature Affinity
Secondary Power Set: Water Blast
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Leviathan Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Regrowth -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(31), Numna-Heal/Rchg(31)
Level 1: Aqua Bolt -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(34), Dev'n-Hold%(34)
Level 2: Hydro Blast -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(37), Dev'n-Hold%(40), FrcFbk-Rechg%(45)
Level 4: Water Burst -- Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(5), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), Posi-Dam%(21), FrcFbk-Rechg%(23)
Level 6: Spore Cloud -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(7), DampS-ToHitDeb/Rchg/EndRdx(7), DampS-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(9)
Level 8: Lifegiving Spores -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(25), Heal-I(50)
Level 10: Whirlpool -- SDefendersB-Acc/Dmg(A), SDefendersB-Dmg/Rchg(11), SDefendersB-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SDefendersB-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), SDefendersB-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SDefendersB-Rchg/Heal%(15)
Level 12: Wild Growth -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(15), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Mrcl-Heal(17), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(19), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(19)
Level 14: Corrosive Enzymes -- Acc-I(A)
Level 16: Tidal Forces -- AdjTgt-Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 18: Wild Bastion -- Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(A), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(25)
Level 20: Dehydrate -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(42), Dev'n-Hold%(42)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Entangling Aura -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(27), Lock-Rchg/Hold(27), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(29), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(29), Lock-%Hold(31)
Level 28: Water Jet -- Dev'n-Acc/Dmg(A), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg(43), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 30: Hover -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-Travel(50)
Level 32: Overgrowth -- AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(33), AdjTgt-Rchg(33), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 35: Steam Spray -- Posi-Dmg/Rng(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg(36), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Dam%(37)
Level 38: Geyser -- Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(39), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(39), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Ragnrk-Knock%(40), FrcFbk-Rechg%(40)
Level 41: Shark Skin -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(46), GA-3defTpProc(46)
Level 44: Spirit Shark Jaws -- BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Hold(45), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(45), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Summon Coralax -- S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Dmg(48)
Level 49: School of Sharks -- GravAnch-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A), GravAnch-Immob/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(3), P'Shift-End%(3)
Level 1: Combo Level 1
Level 1: Combo Level 2
Level 1: Combo Level 3
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Clarion Radial Epiphany
Level 50: Support Radial Embodiment
------------



Cogito, Ergo... eh?

Hemipowered

  • Minion
  • **
  • Posts: 28
Re: Funny thing happened while theorycrafting for NA.
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2018, 07:03:56 AM »
  Excellent conversation and INFO-honestly a little bit above my pay grade, but I learned alot none the less. I need this game to come back, I am building better than ever. Still my Fav game ever.