New Kickstarter Guidelines (May Affect Current and Future CoH Projects)

[Rubberlad]

So I've hinted at potential legal liability issues before with regard to using Kickstarter campaigns to fundraise but then failing to deliver or provide operations transparency.

Two days ago, Kickstarter updated their TOS to underline those same concerns and raise visibility of potential legal liability issues...

Link: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2014/09/22/kickstarter-tightens-terms-of-service-warns-projects-of-legal-liability.aspx

I've heard a lot of talk about a second Kickstarter campaign being used to fundraise for a second CoH project before the first CoH/CoT Kickstarter campaign has even delivered, so again I want to warn folks...

Before you ask for money to fund a CoH-related project, be very sure you can deliver what you say you intend to deliver (and be transparent about your cost allocations and strategic operations/progress) or things could get very, very ugly down the road if/when those successfully fundraised projects aren't delivered as originally defined by the project scope during the campaign stage...

I'd love to see any and all CoH-related projects happen, so hopefully none of this will come to pass in our small corner of the interwebs.

[Surelle]

So I've hinted at potential legal liability issues before with regard to using Kickstarter campaigns to fundraise but then failing to deliver or provide operations transparency.

Two days ago, Kickstarter updated their TOS to underline those same concerns and raise visibility of potential legal liability issues...

Link: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2014/09/22/kickstarter-tightens-terms-of-service-warns-projects-of-legal-liability.aspx

I've heard a lot of talk about a second Kickstarter campaign being used to fundraise for a second CoH project before the first CoH/CoT Kickstarter campaign has even delivered, so again I want to warn folks...

Before you ask for money to fund a CoH-related project, be very sure you can deliver what you say you intend to deliver (and be transparent about your cost allocations and strategic operations/progress) or things could get very, very ugly down the road if/when those successfully fundraised projects aren't delivered as originally defined by the project scope during the campaign stage...

I'd love to see any and all CoH-related projects happen, so hopefully none of this will come to pass in our small corner of the interwebs.

If you're talking about funding for Atlas Park Revival, there's no way they can do any sort of crowd funding without leasing the CoX IP from NCSoft first.  So I doubt you're going to see crowd funding for that little baby until well into next year if ever.  NCSoft has far from signed on the dotted line concerning anything; in fact it took the better part of a whole year just to get introduced to the right person inside NCSoft that would even look at the initial offer just put onto the table.

And if NCSoft winds up turning everything down, APR is really not going to wind up getting made, not even remotely legally anyway.  I would think in that case NCSoft would serve them with a Cease & Desist once major progress had been made and it was ready to play, shutting them down.  I'm surprised they've gone ahead with a website and all that at this point, really.  If NCSoft gets wind of it I hope they don't freak out.

And kickstarters can only be used for new games anyway.  I'm not sure APR would qualify, being that it's ripping every asset out of CoX.

[Ironwolf]

You see it took from April to August to get the right person. It took a long time to find out who in the company needed to be contacted. Then there was the need to find someone who could introduce the team to this contact - to keep within the protocols of NCSoft.

I get it you are being cautious - however you are not quite correct. Nate didn't even finish with the idea until late in March - early April. Look at the timeline of my emails. In fact March 28th was the date they were putting things together. April 5th was when they found the person to contact. Then once they contacted NCSoft they were asked to do a few things for proof of tech expertise and were asked to hang on until August to start working on the deal. The guy at NCSoft likely had more projects on the burner and didn't have the time to start another one.

I know we often think our game is the center of the universe, however the Executives at NCSoft have more projects all of the time. The fact that NCSoft is so far - happy with the deal and that the team is staying flexible to meet whatever changes NCSoft desires bodes well for success.

This thread started as yet another backhanded slap at CoT - I can't speak to how that game is progressing. A second CoH property under different management and only sharing a few properties (character creator) - is really a completely different kettle of fish. APR isn't asking for money - yet - as the deal has not closed.

[Remaugen]

I've heard a lot of talk about a second Kickstarter campaign being used to fundraise for a second CoH project before the first CoH/CoT Kickstarter campaign has even delivered, so again I want to warn folks...

I think you are confusing two different properties. CoT is not CoH.

If negotiations come to a successful conclusion, they may eventually share some some software and bit's of IP, but they are two separate projects. MWM is it's own entity and their kickstarter funds are for their CoT project.

[Ironwolf]

This is exactly why I was in the middle of things instead of having any MWM involvement. They end up defending themselves and answering questions about things other than CoT. It was time to come out and show who was behind the curtain but it has opened them up to criticism.

I can't speak to CoT because I have never been involved. I read these things and hear the same people dogging me for saying too much - tell us MWM is saying too little. People paid money to help develop CoT, I get that. I also get the timeframe for development from the Kickstart to now is very short. I had enough things on my plate to not follow any of the other efforts from Valiance to Heroes and Villains to CoT. I know Valiance had a game already in development before they flipped to a Hero MMO.

[Rubberlad]

This thread started as yet another backhanded slap at CoT - I can't speak to how that game is progressing. A second CoH property under different management and only sharing a few properties (character creator) - is really a completely different kettle of fish. APR isn't asking for money - yet - as the deal has not closed.

No... This thread started as a reshared "Investor/Buyer beware" reminder -- the end. The announcement wasn't specifically aimed towards MWM when Kickstarter posted it and that's still not the case when I reposted it here. Its just good investor/consumer advice - and if MWM deem this change of ToS is specifically relevant to them (or not), that's their choice. Nothing I say, do or post is going to change, improve or disprove anyone's legal liability (unless I was a participant in contract negotiations which I was not).

That said, yes I feel this announcement is absolutely relevant to recent conversations here -- particularly as there is new conversations afoot about potentially fundraising for a second CoH-related or inspired project (CoT being the first successful Kickstarter campaign in this category - but whose to say someone won't see MWM as potentialy cashing in on the CoH brand's reputation and attempt to follow suit?). People will blindly throw money at anyone offering to make their dreams a reality (but just because something's promised for X dollars, that doesn't guarantee it will be delivered in full... If ever). This ToS modification makes it a lot harder and a lot more painful for certain parties to cash out prematurely without ever giving back to Kickstarter's investor base (either with the realized product delivered to original scope specs or as financial reimbursement because the projected goods/services failed to materialize as promised).

On a third level, if I were any startup developer attempting to fundraise for a video game, I would absolutely take this announcement back to my team and stress how important it is to deliver on our promised commitments and remind the team, the leadership and fellow stakeholders just what's at stake if we *don't* deliver what's been already promised in the crowdfunded-approved project scope.

Bottom line: Kickstarter is making all parties accountable who use Kickstarter to fundraise but then fail to deliver. That's not a back-handed slap in the face to anyone; that's just good business sense (and some very smart legalese to protect the Kickstarter brand).

[FloatingFatMan]

Translation: You don't trust MWM and DID post this as another backhanded slap at them.

Oh, and those "new fundraising" conversations going on here? They're not being held by MWM, fella.  Perhaps you should actually check the names and read the posts? People are just throwing around ideas.

[Angel Phoenix77]

No... This thread started as a reshared "Investor/Buyer beware" reminder -- the end. The announcement wasn't specifically aimed towards MWM when Kickstarter posted it and that's still not the case when I reposted it here. Its just good investor/consumer advice - and if MWM deem this change of ToS is specifically relevant to them (or not), that's their choice. Nothing I say, do or post is going to change, improve or disprove anyone's legal liability (unless I was a participant in contract negotiations which I was not).

That said, yes I feel its absolutely relevant to recent conversations here -- particularly as there is new conversations afoot about potentially fundraising for a second CoH-related or inspired project (CoT being the first successful Kickstarter campaign in this category - but whose to say someone won't see MWM as potentialy cashing in on the CoH brand's reputation and attempt to follow suit?)

On a third level, if I were any startup developer attempting to fundraise for a video game, I would absolutely take this announcement back to my team and stress how important it is to deliver on our promised commitments and remind the team, the leadership and fellow stakeholders just what's at stake if we *don't* deliver what's been already promised in the crowdfunded-approved project scope.

Bottom line: Kickstarter is making all parties accountable who use Kickstarter to fundraise but then fail to deliver. That's not a back-handed slap in the face to anyone; that's just good business sense (and some very smart legalese to protect the Kickstarter brand).

You don't trust Missing Worlds, when you said "but whose to say someone won't see MWM as potentialy cashing in on the CoH brand's reputation and attempt to follow suit?)". That is the back handed comment Wolf has said.

[duane]

In related news when you bake a cake you need eggs, flour and milk.  If you don't mix them properly you get a giant bowl of crap like this post.

Is it too late to lock?

[Rubberlad]

You don't trust Missing Worlds, when you said "but whose to say someone won't see MWM as potentialy cashing in on the CoH brand's reputation and attempt to follow suit?)". That is the back handed comment Wolf has said.

Nothing backhanded here folks. I've been openly vocal and transparent with my criticisms of MWM regarding my concerns for how they used the campaign money and if they'll be able to deliver in many other threads. They responded that they still intend to deliver - and so now its just a waiting game. But that's CoT's Kickstarter campaign that already occurred.

Now I'm aware of two new potential Kickstarter bids that may be coming to table soon asking for money (one is dependent on NCsoft agreeing to let go; the second is an unannounced bid by a third party whose seen what MWM is doing and sees a way to cash in. And who knows who else has the same idea...?)

At some point, we all need to stop being MWM-centric (myself included) and recognize that there are other parties out there who see MWM potentially raking in beaucoup bucks with these Kickstarter campaigns and may also try to cash in (regardless of whether anyone truly intends to deliver or not is another conversation).

[Angel Phoenix77]

Nothing backhanded here folks. I've been openly vocal and transparent with my criticisms of MWM regarding my concerns for how they used the campaign money and if they'll be able to deliver in many other threads. They responded that they still intend to deliver - and so now its just a waiting game. But that's CoT's Kickstarter campaign that already occurred.

Now I'm aware of two new potential Kickstarter bids that may be coming to table soon asking for money (one is dependent on NCsoft agreeing to let go; the second is an unannounced bid by a third party whose seen what MWM is doing and sees a way to cash in. And who knows who else has the same idea...?)

At some point, we all need to stop being MWM-centric (myself included) and recognize that there are other parties out there who see MWM potentially raking in beaucoup bucks with these Kickstarter campaigns and may also try to cash in (regardless of whether anyone truly intends to deliver or not is another conversation).

I have been following what Missing Worlds has been doing since last year, while I would like more updates about cox and cot there is nothing they are doing that other dev houses are doing staying quite and working on their game and trying to get cox back. You are concentrating on what might happen you or I don't know if they will cash out or not. So yes you are trying to have a back handed negativity towards MWM. With all kickstarters if one chooses to contribute to a fund raising attempt it is done with abit of risk and faith.

[KennonGL]

Nothing wrong with being wary of KS funds misuse. 

Go ahead and warn, criticize, comment, etc to your heart's content.

But wouldn't those concerns and warnings best be expressed on the actual MWM site rather than here?

MWM is not bringing back CoX.  They are developing a different game in the same spirit as CoX.

MWM is not associated in any way with the CoX revival we're all hoping for, nor with any other potential

fundraising that may or may not occur related to the legacy game and/or the APR attempts (after licensing).

[Ironwolf]

No... This thread started as a reshared "Investor/Buyer beware" reminder -- the end. The announcement wasn't specifically aimed towards MWM when Kickstarter posted it and that's still not the case when I reposted it here. Its just good investor/consumer advice - and if MWM deem this change of ToS is specifically relevant to them (or not), that's their choice. Nothing I say, do or post is going to change, improve or disprove anyone's legal liability (unless I was a participant in contract negotiations which I was not).

That said, yes I feel this announcement is absolutely relevant to recent conversations here -- particularly as there is new conversations afoot about potentially fundraising for a second CoH-related or inspired project (CoT being the first successful Kickstarter campaign in this category - but whose to say someone won't see MWM as potentialy cashing in on the CoH brand's reputation and attempt to follow suit?). People will blindly throw money at anyone offering to make their dreams a reality (but just because something's promised for X dollars, that doesn't guarantee it will be delivered in full... If ever). This ToS modification makes it a lot harder and a lot more painful for certain parties to cash out prematurely without ever giving back to Kickstarter's investor base (either with the realized product delivered to original scope specs or as financial reimbursement because the projected goods/services failed to materialize as promised).

On a third level, if I were any startup developer attempting to fundraise for a video game, I would absolutely take this announcement back to my team and stress how important it is to deliver on our promised commitments and remind the team, the leadership and fellow stakeholders just what's at stake if we *don't* deliver what's been already promised in the crowdfunded-approved project scope.

Bottom line: Kickstarter is making all parties accountable who use Kickstarter to fundraise but then fail to deliver. That's not a back-handed slap in the face to anyone; that's just good business sense (and some very smart legalese to protect the Kickstarter brand).

I am not trying to argue with you - I am saying there was one major Kickstarter done from all of the efforts ongoing.

CoH2 or 1.5 is not yet a sure thing. No funds are being asked for yet - and I did mention pitching in to pay Nate's phone bill for his calls to NCSoft - because they are outside of the KS for CoT and out of his own pocket. It potentially affects our effort to get the original game back and the IP released for future games. I will state again, I have no real knowledge on any other effort.

I am now working on the APR project making new levels after I learn UR4 enough. If you have issue with the MWM folks you do really need to take it up with them. If I was in a project like this I would be giving out bi-weekly updates sort of like I did here. I tried to drop some shred of information because I know how eager everyone is.

Not everyone has this mindset - it might be worthwhile to contact MWM and speak to their PR person - I think it is Rae from our boards, at least it was - this really is a PR issue as most Devs aren't as good at interacting as they are with developing (insert Jack Emmert reference here). You may be able to convince the PR folks that a regular update would be wise. I know Golden Girl does a semi-weekly one and good for her!

[Rubberlad]

I am not trying to argue with you - I am saying there was one major Kickstarter done from all of the efforts ongoing.

CoH2 or 1.5 is not yet a sure thing. No funds are being asked for yet - and I did mention pitching in to pay Nate's phone bill for his calls to NCSoft - because they are outside of the KS for CoT and out of his own pocket. It potentially affects our effort to get the original game back and the IP released for future games. I will state again, I have no real knowledge on any other effort.

I am now working on the APR project making new levels after I learn UR4 enough. If you have issue with the MWM folks you do really need to take it up with them. If I was in a project like this I would be giving out bi-weekly updates sort of like I did here. I tried to drop some shred of information because I know how eager everyone is.

Not everyone has this mindset - it might be worthwhile to contact MWM and speak to their PR person - I think it is Rae from our boards, at least it was - this really is a PR issue as most Devs aren't as good at interacting as they are with developing (insert Jack Emmert reference here). You may be able to convince the PR folks that a regular update would be wise. I know Golden Girl does a semi-weekly one and good for her!

I'm with you. And as I said, I've already had the conversation as its specific to MWM/CoT both here in their subforum, on their own webpage and with leadership in private (although I'm not sure that person is still the leadership anymore).

Regardless, MWM/CoT is a subcategory topic to the overall concern "Beware CoX-related Kickstarter Campaigns - Both as Developer and/or Investor" ... That's a conversation that should occur here (as well as other forums) because CoHtitan forums is a high profile forum where potential CoX-interested investors can be found.

So again, people need to be careful about asking for money and pledging money on Kickstarter. That applies to any CoX-related campaign - and not just those organized by MWM.

[FloatingFatMan]

Anyone who puts money into a Kickstarter project with the expectation that they absolutely WILL get the end product, wants their head examining.  It's made quite clear by the Kickstarter T&C's, that successful completion is not guaranteed.

The problem isn't trying and failing, the problem is fraudulent projects. That's that KS are trying to catch out.

Star Citizen kinda springs to mind,  here... $54 MILLION and counting... Sheesh...  Seriously... Just look at some of the drivel in their stretch goals...

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals

A cool million bucks, just to stick the in-game map on a website?  Another million for a friggin' decorative plant model?  Those people must be laughing their asses off at the stupid fools throwing money at em.. Whilst sipping 200 year old champagne from 24carat gold goblets...

[Rubberlad]

Anyone who puts money into a Kickstarter project with the expectation that they absolutely WILL get the end product, wants their head examining.  It's made quite clear by the Kickstarter T&C's, that successful completion is not guaranteed.

The problem isn't trying and failing, the problem is fraudulent projects. That's that KS are trying to catch out.

...which wasn't a reality or hard requirement of their ToS until a few days ago. There's a reason why they changed it and its a damn good one: too many succesful campaigns were deemed failures and the organizers walked away with a ton of money and products bought with Kickstarter funds while KS investors got nothing... Not even a refund. And its scaring off potential investors from supporting future campaign opportunities.

That all changed this week (and its a long time coming) and KS can't afford NOT to hold all parties accountable if they fail to deliver product to scope per the original and successful KS campaign.

[Scott Jackson]

That all changed this week (and its a long time coming) and KS can't afford NOT to hold all parties accountable if they fail to deliver product to scope per the original and successful KS campaign.

Unless there's something I've missed, the article linked in the OP does not indicate that Kickstarter would enforce anything or even assist with legal matters; any attempt to recover funds from a failed project would apparently still be a task for the contributors.  They might have a slightly stronger legal position for their attempt, but even that gets an appropriate dose of skepticism at the end of the article.

Ultimately, any potential contributors of time or money should evaluate a project or purchase on both the desirability of its promised goods, the likelihood of (timely) delivery, and the effects of a complete or partial failure or delay (financially, emotionally, etc).  That's a principle which extends far beyond KS, CoH revival efforts, and Plan Z projects.