Business structure of CoX Reloaded

[Rampage]

All,

What information have we received as to the proposed business endeavor to get the CoX game and IP from NCsoft?

We know that Nate Downes (Individual, Gentleman, Scholar, and all-around-nice-guy) is leading this, and that Nate Downes (President, MWM) is not involved, as stated boldly in both threads.

As MWM media is not involved, nor are the Kickstarter funds for City of Titans, what entity is negotiating with NCsoft, and how is this being funded?  Will there be a separate Kickstarter, or is funding already promised via one or more of the studios mentioned as expressing an interest?

I would expect that part of the package offered to Ncsoft would include the business funding aspects in addition to the proof of viability of developers, so something must be in progress.

As the proposed purchase / licensing of the IP would benefit both MWM as well as other Plan Z projects, I would also expect there to be a relationship at some point, and I can envision business complications in later negotiations if Nate Downes, key player of "CoX Reloaded" needs to meet with Nate Downes, President of MWM.  Even with everyone on the same side, the business lawyers frown on the perceived conflict of interest.

Just wondering,

Rampage.

[KennonGL]

Simple Answer:

We don't know. 

Involved Answer:

We don't know. 
We don't know who does know. 
And "They" (whomever that is), probably wouldn't tell us anything at this point anyway.

[BadWolf]

As the proposed purchase / licensing of the IP would benefit both MWM as well as other Plan Z projects, I would also expect there to be a relationship at some point, and I can envision business complications in later negotiations if Nate Downes, key player of "CoX Reloaded" needs to meet with Nate Downes, President of MWM.  Even with everyone on the same side, the business lawyers frown on the perceived conflict of interest.

I believe that it has been clarified in previous posts that Nate Downes is only conducting the negotiations to create the company controlling the licensing of the CoH IP; he is not going to be involved with the company in any professional capacity once it is established. So he would negotiate with it the same way you would negotiate with any company whose ownership you are on good professional terms with--through golfing and free tickets to the local sporting events. (Ah, but I kid the capitalist system!)

I understand your concerns, but I think that it's probably a) too early to determine answers, b) none of our actual business because we're neither the buyer nor the seller, and c) already addressed by previous posts.

[Ironwolf]

I am sure all those things are being worked out as part of the deal - but until thwe deal is complete - may all be an exercise in pointlessness.

Once NCSoft says yes, then all will fall into place. They must have a business plan to run the game or NCSoft would not have done anything. For them to be proceeding - slowly, NCSoft so far is saying yes. If they said no, it would be stalled at the very least until they could work out a solution or the deal could be axed. It is slow going but this is not trying to buy one of their huge money makers.

[Rampage]

I understand your concerns...

Perhaps you don't, as I am not concerned.  I am just wondering how this is going to be structured, because it will affect the CoX Reloaded that we may get.

b) none of our actual business because we're neither the buyer nor the seller.

As a future customer, it is our business.  That's the nature of business.  If the new company owns the IP outright and NCsoft is completely out of the picture, I (and I expect most customers) will be more comfortable paying $$$ again to buy (or re-buy) access.  If, on the other hand, NCsoft licenses the IP on a year by year basis and can pull the plug at any time, I will spend far less if I spend anything at all.

I'm also interested as a contributor, whether by Kickstarter, investment of capital, or a volunteer.

c) already addressed by previous posts.

I haven't seen anything related to business structure.  As a small business owner/operator, I do understand some of the impacts and nuances of decisions here.  I  do not claim expertise, of course, but I have dealt with the business structure, negotiations, corporate paperwork, tax structure, etc.  I haven't followed MWM long, but am impressed with what's been accomplished via their organization of capital and volunteers, but as it has been stated in bold letters, MWM is not involved with CoX Reloaded.

Rampage

[Jorge Firebomb]

Well at this point, we are not shareholders or financially involved, however we ARE stakeholders in a relaunched City of Heroes. There is an understandable curiosity involved, we would very much like to know the future structure of something we find important. That said, anything released by the negotiation team, while negotiations are still ongoing, can do nothing but potentially hurt the possibility of a deal going through. Businesses really don't like people that leak information they would rather stay quiet, after all.

So we can speculate all we want, and we will because it is kind of fun and something to do, but we won't know the details until there are concrete details to share.

[Mistress Urd]

We waited this long, if you still really want to play the game again, its likely a few weeks/months won't change that.

[BadWolf]

Perhaps you don't, as I am not concerned.  I am just wondering how this is going to be structured, because it will affect the CoX Reloaded that we may get.

As a future customer, it is our business.  That's the nature of business.  If the new company owns the IP outright and NCsoft is completely out of the picture, I (and I expect most customers) will be more comfortable paying $$$ again to buy (or re-buy) access.  If, on the other hand, NCsoft licenses the IP on a year by year basis and can pull the plug at any time, I will spend far less if I spend anything at all.

I'm also interested as a contributor, whether by Kickstarter, investment of capital, or a volunteer.

I haven't seen anything related to business structure.  As a small business owner/operator, I do understand some of the impacts and nuances of decisions here.  I  do not claim expertise, of course, but I have dealt with the business structure, negotiations, corporate paperwork, tax structure, etc.  I haven't followed MWM long, but am impressed with what's been accomplished via their organization of capital and volunteers, but as it has been stated in bold letters, MWM is not involved with CoX Reloaded.

Rampage

To be blunt, nobody has asked for contributors at this stage, whether by Kickstarter, investment of capital, or a volunteer. And honestly, it's not really in the nature of most big business deals to be done in public so that potential customers can give their two cents on what the best business structure is, because again, you're neither the buyer nor the seller. Sure, you can decide to take your personal business elsewhere if the IP is licensed on a yearly basis, but that's probably not the most important factor that NCSoft is taking into account when they agree to sell nor is it the most important factor that Downes' group is taking into account when they agree to buy. Ultimately, no matter who is in charge, we have no influence on this deal and we will need to make our personal decisions on what to do with our money based on the deal that happens, not the deal we want.

And more importantly, if that's your primary consideration--"If the new company owns the IP outright and NCsoft is completely out of the picture, I (and I expect most customers) will be more comfortable paying $$$ again to buy (or re-buy) access.  If, on the other hand, NCsoft licenses the IP on a year by year basis and can pull the plug at any time, I will spend far less if I spend anything at all."--why are you asking about Nate Downes specifically? Why not ask about NCSoft, who really has a lot more leverage here in terms of what kind of deal they can negotiate? Do you think that someone else could negotiate a better deal? Because after a year of nothing, I'm kind of thinking this is the best shot we have.

[HEATSTROKE]

Its amazing to me how much people think they have "a right to know" about business deals that are taking place..

[Twisted Toon]

As a future customer, it is our business.  That's the nature of business.  If the new company owns the IP outright and NCsoft is completely out of the picture, I (and I expect most customers) will be more comfortable paying $$$ again to buy (or re-buy) access.  If, on the other hand, NCsoft licenses the IP on a year by year basis and can pull the plug at any time, I will spend far less if I spend anything at all.

I can allay your concerns about the IP with a quote from the OP.

The proposal as it stands right now (this is not a final form, just the current proposal on the table) is this:

The CoH IP would be spun to its own company, to handle licensing. This company would itself license the existing engine from NCSoft for the creation of a maintenance mode, using a binary copy of the i23 server.

The existing user database and characters are not part of this arrangement at this time, nor is the source code.

The way I, and presumably many others, read this is that the IP (stories, characters, and lore) of CoH will be sold to a company that we currently have no knowledge of. The engine that CoH currently runs on will be licensed for use with maintenance mode for Issue 23 of CoH. Until such a time that the IP is converted/ported over to the Unreal engine where regular updates can resume. NCSoft will have nothing to do with the IP after the sale. That is, IF the sale goes through.

That is how I read that bit of information. I could have been mistaken in a few details. I'm sure that someone else could correct me, if they so desired.

[Rampage]

@Twisted Toon:

Thank you for the polite, well-reasoned response.  On my original read, I read the "COH IP woud be spun to its own company" part differently, as that NCsoft would do the spinning.

@Others:

I don't know if/what/why the words "business" with the later mention of the Nword put people into a depressed funk, but some are reading way too deep into what I asked, and seeing concerns and critiques that aren't there.

I asked a simple, straightforward question from the perspective of player, professional, and businessmen: nothing more, nothing else. 

Somehow, this is being read-into as a critique of Nate Downs, armchair quarterbacking, or meddling.

Given the organization of MWM and the months of groundwork laid to get the CoX Reboot proposal to the right people in Korea, I'm certain that the business structure has been part of it from the start, with options to adjust as Ncsoft began to reply.

What I did not know was to what, if anything, had been shared.  I browsed through the two long main threads, but amongst discussions of ED, Jack Emmert, Jack's airplane, Jack's other games, and more ED, it's possible I missed a post related to this.

If the business team isn't ready to share any details, that's fine.
If the business team also isn't ready to ask for support, or let the community know how they can best support the efforts, that's fine too.

Posts commenting on "To be blunt, nobody asked for contributors at this stage" and "meddling" frankly aren't helpful to supporting the community interest.  If you *are* on the business team, and can state this on their behalf, feel free.

Should I reiterate again that I'm not actually concerned, and that my example of "what-if" was an example of a business interest?

Rampage

[Ohioknight]

I asked a simple, straightforward question from the perspective of player, professional, and businessmen: nothing more, nothing else. 

I think the predominant objection was due to this:

"As a future customer, it is our business...
 
I'm also interested as a contributor, whether by Kickstarter, investment of capital, or a volunteer."

The replies you got were basically "No, as a future customer it is NOT your business" and "No, you are NOT interested as a contributor, whether by Kickstarter, investment of capital, or a volunteer" because not only is nobody asking you for any of those things, they are not allowing you to be involved in any of those ways.

Which is correct.  Your statement appeared to assert a claim to rights that you do not have.

[Jorge Firebomb]

Well as a potential future stakeholder, I have an interest in how the game will be run and who will ultimately be in charge. I am not, however, a current stakeholder, so I really don't expect the people in the negotiations to tell me anything. In fact, I would prefer they don't, because telling people things now might jeopardize the negotiations, or might set expectations that the final deal is unable to meet. Better to just let us have our fun speculating, I think.

[JKPhage]

The way I, and presumably many others, read this is that the IP (stories, characters, and lore) of CoH will be sold to a company that we currently have no knowledge of. The engine that CoH currently runs on will be licensed for use with maintenance mode for Issue 23 of CoH. Until such a time that the IP is converted/ported over to the Unreal engine where regular updates can resume. NCSoft will have nothing to do with the IP after the sale. That is, IF the sale goes through.

That is how I read that bit of information. I could have been mistaken in a few details. I'm sure that someone else could correct me, if they so desired.

The way I interpreted it (and if anyone knows better/different, please feel free to correct me) was that the COH IP would become City of Heroes: The Company. COH: The Company would control all rights to the IP and be able to license them out as it sees fit, and would itself be licensing the COH game engine from NCSoft, who would retain ownership of the engine itself, though that is nothing but a code base that the game was built on rather than any of it's content. COH: The Company would use this to run a static version of i23 from a server code snapshot until, and possibly even after, the Atlas Park Reborn crew can complete porting the maps into and replicating the gameplay code in Unreal Engine, at which point it would become something of a COH 1.5, not a true sequel, but a heavily improved version that is easier to run, looks better and is much easier to develop for than the original game was, and will allow for further updates to the game, as well as letting developers do more and more interesting things with it now that the restrictions of a 10-year-old duct taped together hodge podge of code are gone.

It would also allow the successor games to become true successors to COH. City of Titans can take place in the same world, but a different city. It can make references to the characters of COH and even include them if they like. It really opens the door to tons of possibilities. The same goes for Heroes and Villains and Valiance. All they have to do is get permission from COH: The Company. It also opens the door for a real and true sequel to be made, should a studio/developer step forward with the intent to do so.

The basic idea is that we aren't really "getting the game back" other than in a rudimentary way, but we would be getting the world back and opening doors to many avenues of continuation. One of the main mentioned projects was Atlas Park Reborn, which would give us a recreation of the game with improvements, and once we have the new company set up, the sky really is the limit. As long as the company is willing to license the rights out, we could see more novels, comics, web shorts, etc., or perhaps even an animated series, a movie, spin-off games, merchandise. It's all in what ideas we can come up with, implement and execute as a community. If someone wants to step up and make a single-player game set in the world of COH, they can apply for license to do it.

As I said, this is just what I gleaned from the released statement. It's in no way confirmed that I'm correct, but that seems to be the basic idea of what was put forth. For now, I'm just eagerly awaiting news on how the deal goes. A positive response from NCSoft just means that sooner or later, we'll be visiting Paragon and the Rogue Isles again.

[Drauger9]

@ Rampage

I thought the "first" post of new efforts was updated with any new information as it came. So no one had to go threw all those other billion post of this and that? Did you not read the first post? I mean it says UPDATE October 2 2014 at the top of the post. Then alittle bit down it says in bracets (Update October 14: No Change)

If you did see that, do you really believe that their was an update. They hadn't added to the original post buried somewhere in that tangled mess of a thread? LOL!

I just don't understand why you felt the need to start this thread? I mean, I just figured once they had something important to tell us like a "Business Model" they'd make it to where it was a flashing neon sign on the forums.

*shrugs* Oh well back to the gaming goodness....

[Surelle]

Honestly, I think this thread should be locked and I hope Agge locks it.   

There is as of yet no zombie image of CoX i23 up and running so there is no "we the people want or demand info on this" stage.  And every time somebody trolls this topic (like The Infamous Facebook Dude also did) we get the same end result:  a lot of guessing and hearsay that riles people up when what we need right now is quiet, so the Hail Mary Team and NCSoft can do their jobs in their own professional way and get us CoX back.   (And this is what this thread is, make no mistake about it, it is a troll thread started by a troll whether he consciously or only subconsciously knows it.)

So please, Agge, lock this troll thread.  The OP can jump into the other two megathreads and stay out of trouble.  Which is exactly why he started his own thread instead-- so the troll could have his own stage.

[Surelle]

And oh, by the way, Rampage,

If the people who are creating and financially backing this project, as well as NCSoft, wanted your opinions and input, they would ask you.     As they clearly have not, then much like with every other business deal on the planet that you personally are not creating, putting up the full backing money for and signing your life away to, you take what you get when the deal is done and decide at that point whether you want to be involved as a consumer or not.  And until that point, obviously the details and finer points of the deal are not fully worked out, so there's nothing else to talk about.

Just like that other "Kickstarter thread" troll: obvious troll is obvious.    

[Fridgy Daiere]

1)  Agge is at Disneyland.
2)  From a Titan admin (Sekoia), "...we think it's unhelpful for people to call each other trolls."

If we negatively engage people who we believe are initiating negativity, are we not then becoming what we are claiming to despise?

@Rampage, NCSoft may have a hand in the "spinning off" the new IP holding company, but once that company is established, it will be a completely autonomous entity, wholly separated from both NCSoft and Missing Worlds Media.  It will own the CoX intellectual property and will lease the game engine from NCSoft, rather like owning a mobile home, but renting the land it's parked on.  It will then set up and run the I23 version of CoX for as long as it remains feasible to lease NCSoft's engine.

If/when this holding company becomes a reality, Atlas Park Revival is reportedly going to license the IP from the new company and layer it (the IP: stories, art, powers, NPCs, numbers etc.) on top of a bare-bones version of the City of Titans game engine, which is built on Unreal 4.  It has not been stated anywhere that I can recall whether APR will lease, purchase, or be given this engine.

As far as the structure being our business, that might have been an inflammatory choice of words.  There have been heated discussions elsewhere in these forums that you may have had no knowledge of, and you just happened to kicked that hornet's nest.    If/when NCSoft sells and the new company is formed, the new team will likely satiate our curiosity...because they will actually have concrete answers to give.  Until NCSoft signs on that dotted line, everything is still only hypothetical.

[BadWolf]

Just like that other "Kickstarter thread" troll: obvious troll is obvious.   

I think that's potentially a tiny bit unfair--not everyone is aware of some of the thread politics. Allow me to clarify:

Rampage, you should probably know that with the announcement that Nate Downes is in charge of the efforts to recover CoH, some people who have an axe to grind regarding MWM and City of Titans have popped in to post "a few questions" that insinuated something shady was going on (and was connected to their personal feelings regarding the speed of progress on CoT). Your questions sounded a lot like those other threads, which prompted the tone in many of the responses. There are a few people who seem to feel like their participation in a MWM Kickstarter gives them some sort of business interest in a different deal involving different parties, and that's not true and has been a source of frustration.

Again, we're all just spectators at this point, and the buyers and sellers here have every right to keep private details of a private deal...um...private, at this point. While we all want to know more, there's a fine line between "interested" and "pushy", and too many people have crossed it already for new people to be given the benefit of the doubt.

[Ultimate15]

I think that's potentially a tiny bit unfair--not everyone is aware of some of the thread politics. Allow me to clarify:

Rampage, you should probably know that with the announcement that Nate Downes is in charge of the efforts to recover CoH, some people who have an axe to grind regarding MWM and City of Titans have popped in to post "a few questions" that insinuated something shady was going on (and was connected to their personal feelings regarding the speed of progress on CoT). Your questions sounded a lot like those other threads, which prompted the tone in many of the responses. There are a few people who seem to feel like their participation in a MWM Kickstarter gives them some sort of business interest in a different deal involving different parties, and that's not true and has been a source of frustration.

Again, we're all just spectators at this point, and the buyers and sellers here have every right to keep private details of a private deal...um...private, at this point. While we all want to know more, there's a fine line between "interested" and "pushy", and too many people have crossed it already for new people to be given the benefit of the doubt.

This.

Currently, NONE of us are 'stakeholders' because 1.) no deal (to our public knowledge) has been settled and/or reached, and 2.) there has been no finalized word from the proper authorities at play here on any type of official Kickstarter to be created to assist in raising funds for the future of the CoX franchise. Ergo, none of us have any justifiable right to be privy to the inner workings of the 'business talk' as it stands right now. All we can do is sit, wait, and hope.

...That said, I don't think the OP meant any harm or shade by his inquiries. All of his questions were valid ones and chances are he was unaware of the hub-ub from before regarding certain posters expressing concern over Nate and MWM's involvement with this. You gotta realize here people...all of the 'important' threads on the forums here (the ones specifically started to discuss the 'new efforts') are each literally hundreds of pages long at this point lol. It is NOT easy for a newcomer to wander over and quickly/adequately catch themselves up to speed with where the deal currently stands. Let's REALLY exercise our patience here and not falsely accuse people with questions of causing trouble.

Are we there yet?!?!? <3

[JennSpace]

I'd say the best thing to do is wait until the end of the year. If I make connection to the world of boxing, it's not rare at all fights take months and months of negociation to come to fruition. And they won't talk much about the deal before the official announcement so I understand what the OP is saying but all we can do really, is wait. Nate or NCSoft won't tell us more before they decide to tell us more otherwise they would already have done so, don't you think? Let's wait until the end of the year and I'm pretty sure we'll have gotten news in some sort of way by then!

[duane]

I'd say the best thing to do is wait until the end of the year. If I make connection to the world of boxing, it's not rare at all fights take months and months of negociation to come to fruition. And they won't talk much about the deal before the official announcement so I understand what the OP is saying but all we can do really, is wait. Nate or NCSoft won't tell us more before they decide to tell us more otherwise they would already have done so, don't you think? Let's wait until the end of the year and I'm pretty sure we'll have gotten news in some sort of way by then!

Amen.  The people putting their bacon on the line can do the work, but it's going to take time.  When the deal goes public then people can play armchair quarterback with confirmed info.

Otherwise.... Bacon.

[KennonGL]

mmmm Bacon

or would that be

aaarrrrggghh Bacoooon

[Pherdnut]

Phrased as a statement rather than a question was not nice.

[Nyx Nought Nothing]

Posting in a thoroughly unnecessary thread. 

Also, bacon. 

[downix]

There are several options for funding on the table, which one the group goes with depends greatly on the final terms settled. I've seen that in cinema before, a movie producer needs $80 million, so he goes out and finds $200 million potential, but with each segment having various terms. "I'll put in $10 million if you can get this actor in it" along with "I'll put in $15 million if you get this screenwriter" and so forth. He gets this larger potential pool and then negotiates. He will not get every actor, screenwriter, director, cinematographer which is asked for, so he will not get the full potential pool. That is why he goes for a far larger pool than needed in the first place. As he negotiates for various bits, he secures, or loses, various promises of funds.

So, when I say "too much in the air" I mean just that, it depends on how the negotiations go for what is the final arrangement.

[ukaserex]

Hmm...
It occurs to me, that for me, waiting patiently is more difficult when given little snippets like the one above from Nate (Downix). I come to the site, see interesting commentary, sometimes contribute and then real life takes me away.
Then, I see a post like the one above, and I'm left contemplating, "If this, then what about that!? Or, maybe it'll be thus, and so!".

It's time like these that I wish I could foresee this aspect of the future. I'd hate to get invested in another game and then be faced with something crazy like playing more than one game. MMO's are a time sink for me, generally. And it's tough to serve two masters. So, I wait. Optimistic, but with some skepticism thrown in to sort of keep things in balance.

[//insert frustrated pirate sound here]

[Shard]

Simple Answer:

We don't know. 

Involved Answer:

We don't know. 
We don't know who does know. 
And "They" (whomever that is), probably wouldn't tell us anything at this point anyway.

Honestly, this is the only current valid answer as the requirements of NCSoft - presuming a deal is worked out will STRONGLY shape this answer.

Anything more than that is speculation or "here's what we hope" but really, giving those answers cause perceptions of truth that are simply not there and ends up a mess for all involved.

IF/WHEN the deal is done and IF terms are sharable, they will be shared.  I HIGHLY doubt the terms will be consumable by the general public as part of the terms.  VERY HIGHLY.

[Illusionss]

And oh, by the way, Rampage,

If the people who are creating and financially backing this project, as well as NCSoft, wanted your opinions and input, they would ask you.     As they clearly have not, then much like with every other business deal on the planet that you personally are not creating, putting up the full backing money for and signing your life away to, you take what you get when the deal is done and decide at that point whether you want to be involved as a consumer or not.  And until that point, obviously the details and finer points of the deal are not fully worked out, so there's nothing else to talk about.

Just like that other "Kickstarter thread" troll: obvious troll is obvious.   

Speaking in general:

I think of it like I would someone jumping up and down, asking a million questions while a superhero is trying to disable a doomsday device. The hero is busy. Very, very busy. Busy trying to save everyone's life, including that of the maroon jumping up and down, asking questions which are either unanswerable, or none of his business - and certainly irrelevant to the task at hand. The hero's thinking hard, sweating, trying to remember what he knows when deciding to clip this wire, or that one.

Let's don't distract, annoy or tinker with the hero[es] trying to disable this particular doomsday for us. This seems like a wise - and considerate - course of action. That hero owes us nothing. But if he succeeds in saving us all, we will owe HIM our heartfelt thanks.

[Ankhammon]

I think I've seen that scenario before... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddtpyR6WIlY

so how long does it take to look up Irene Demova in a browser?

[Aggelakis]

We don't know. We won't know until something is posted publicly. There are no updates. There will be no updates until someone posts publicly. If there are updates, the appropriate First Posts will be updated.

You are not entitled to know anything of the process until after it is public. (Note: this reads way more hostile than I mean it; please read it in a benign voice.)