Author Topic: EFF to the rescue?  (Read 7004 times)

Undercat

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EFF to the rescue?
« on: November 05, 2014, 10:24:25 AM »
https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-fights-common-sense-again-dmca-rulemaking

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/11/eff-asks-for-the-right-to-revive-abandoned-online-games/

http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/4/7157539/eff-petitions-to-legalize-bringing-abandoned-games-back-online

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/229329/Online_game_permanently_offline_The_EFF_wants_to_make_it_legal_to_fix_that.php

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/11/eff-asks-for-the-right-to-revive-abandoned-online-games/

Looks like they specifically exclude "persistent online world" games because significant content is stored online. Still, it might make the use of a local emulator to allow play within the world itself legal. In other words, though you may not be able to have group play, it seems to me that it would at least establish the legality of local server emulators, like the one that I think is available for CoX somewhere?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 07:23:37 AM by Aggelakis »

Leandro

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2014, 11:47:25 AM »
I wrote to the EFF specifically to encourage them to include "persistent worlds" in their exemption, using Titan Icon for proof that the "audiovisual content" (models, sounds, and so on) are stored on the client, not the server. I got this reply:

Dear Mr. Pardini,
    Thank you for the note, and for your encouragement. We will
certainly push for the exemption to cover as many games as possible, and
we're hoping to fix the problem for good and all by changing the DMCA
itself, if we can.
      Best,
          Mitch


So while the current exemption request doesn't cover it, it certainly looks like they'll try to get there in incremental steps. The EFF exemption request as written would solidly put Titan Icon in legal ground.

The problem, of course, is that if NCsoft decides to C&D and threaten to sue a small developer working on a server anyway, and they can drag out the trial for years and years until the developer is completely broke and unable to continue, then they win by default. Unless the EFF is willing to step in and cover legal expenses of such a battle. So far, NCsoft hasn't tried to stop the distribution of the i24 Beta client through www.savecoh.com or Titan Icon, but that might change once Icon reaches a playable stage.

That said, I still hope the EFF succeeds; it's not everything we need, but it's certainly a big step in the right direction.

Surelle

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2014, 02:09:32 PM »
https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-fights-common-sense-again-dmca-rulemaking
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/11/eff-asks-for-the-right-to-revive-abandoned-online-games/
http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/4/7157539/eff-petitions-to-legalize-bringing-abandoned-games-back-online
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/229329/Online_game_permanently_offline_The_EFF_wants_to_make_it_legal_to_fix_that.php

Looks like they specifically exclude "persistent online world" games because significant content is stored online. Still, it might make the use of a local emulator to allow play within the world itself legal. In other words, though you may not be able to have group play, it seems to me that it would at least establish the legality of local server emulators, like the one that I think is available for CoX somewhere?

Yeah, I saw this on Massively today, actually, and I was all excited until I saw the "MMO exclusion" section, lol.  Still, thanks for sharing!  Nothing's going to happen if no one ever tries, so I applaud their efforts.  Songs go into the Public Domain after so many years, so there's been a similar entertainment precedent set....kind of.   :P

Noyjitat

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2014, 03:12:05 PM »
It says it doesn't include mmos so sadly until they go for that approach as well it doesn't really matter...

Harpospoke

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2014, 03:16:52 PM »
I wrote to the EFF specifically to encourage them to include "persistent worlds" in their exemption, using Titan Icon for proof that the "audiovisual content" (models, sounds, and so on) are stored on the client, not the server. I got this reply:

Dear Mr. Pardini,
    Thank you for the note, and for your encouragement. We will
certainly push for the exemption to cover as many games as possible, and
we're hoping to fix the problem for good and all by changing the DMCA
itself, if we can.
      Best,
          Mitch


So while the current exemption request doesn't cover it, it certainly looks like they'll try to get there in incremental steps. The EFF exemption request as written would solidly put Titan Icon in legal ground.

The problem, of course, is that if NCsoft decides to C&D and threaten to sue a small developer working on a server anyway, and they can drag out the trial for years and years until the developer is completely broke and unable to continue, then they win by default. Unless the EFF is willing to step in and cover legal expenses of such a battle. So far, NCsoft hasn't tried to stop the distribution of the i24 Beta client through www.savecoh.com or Titan Icon, but that might change once Icon reaches a playable stage.

That said, I still hope the EFF succeeds; it's not everything we need, but it's certainly a big step in the right direction.
I love it.   This needs to happen for gamers.   Online games basically abuse their users.....treating them like they are the product.   ....Only useful on a temporary basis and expected to keep flocking back to new games as the old ones go away forever.

The obvious flaw in this situation is with games that encourage creative thinking...like CoH.   That leads to emotional attachment to the game.   That's added to the normal love of any game that people have...like chess, poker, monopoly, etc. 

I wasn't aware of any plan for Icon to be playable...has something changed there?

KennonGL

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2014, 03:46:02 PM »
I wasn't aware of any plan for Icon to be playable...has something changed there?

No.  Icon does exactly what Icon was designed to do. 

Give access to the costume creator and allow for some demorecording to work.

It was never intended to be turned into some kind of r.e.'d offline server.

In fact, the sticky threads about Icon explicitly say that Icon will never be more than what it is.

I think the other poster may have been confusing Icon and the APR project.


mrultimate

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2014, 05:21:11 PM »
Leandro confused? I doubt it.

KennonGL

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2014, 05:36:29 PM »
Leandro confused? I doubt it.

Or there could be plans within plans within plans that I don't know about ... entirely possible :)

But from what I read on the sticky threads and such about Icon, I don't see any indication that
it was ever intended to become a full off-line server app.

Aggelakis

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2014, 08:22:35 PM »
No.  Icon does exactly what Icon was designed to do. 

Give access to the costume creator and allow for some demorecording to work.

It was never intended to be turned into some kind of r.e.'d offline server.

In fact, the sticky threads about Icon explicitly say that Icon will never be more than what it is.

I think the other poster may have been confusing Icon and the APR project.
Leo's just using Icon incorrectly. Icon will never be anything but a solo "3D paper doll" type thing. That's not to say that there aren't efforts ongoing to get a playable game out to the masses. But it won't be Icon.
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Joshex

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2014, 09:47:44 PM »
SEGS is working on what some people are hoping for, I'm not sure if the process is still ongoing though, last time I checked in was a while back when they gave me a job and I flaked out.... I feel terrible about it, I just haven't had the guts or time to go say I'm sorry for not delivering (it was to code the game texts).

needless to say coding the game texts is what gave me quite a headache in python, and the outcome was a huge block of scripts and objects that work together to do the process of controlled windowed text which was really not very portable to other scripting types or GEs and was too much work to waste which is what started my own MMO project which has nothing to do with CoH. I may open up the team to others at a later time once everything works and is worth showing. where as SEGS is open now for those who wish to help and have the capacity.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Undercat

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2014, 01:04:42 AM »
I wasn't aware of any plan for Icon to be playable...has something changed there?

I don't think Leandro was saying that the existing Icon emulator made the game "playable" in any meaningful sense, just that its existence demonstrates that all the content required to make the game playable is actually cached directly by the client, not supplied by the servers dynamically.

I think the reservation that EFF has regarding MMOs may have more to do with the IP embodied in the servers themselves, which implement things like combat resolution and other game dynamics: players never actually acquire any implementation of this logic with the game client. Still, it seems to me that one need not clone the original implementation of the servers; it suffices to simply create an emulator that allows whatever content the client does provide to be used in some reasonably similar, if not identical, manner to that provided for in the original game. The client-server protocol can obviously be used to implement a variety of game design choices.

Not sure why splitting hairs is important here, other than perhaps that Blizzard is a 10,000-pound chimp that the EFF would rather not provoke. Still, it is very encouraging that they responded to Leandro's inquiry the way they did.

Noyjitat

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Re: EFF to the rescue?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2014, 05:36:03 AM »
SEGs is still developed but only by Nemerle and only when he has spare time. I would guess that hasn't been for awhile or he has a big update that isn't anywhere near ready to release.

Unless Nem says hes not going to develop it any longer I expect it will be made someday...