Author Topic: On "private servers"  (Read 15322 times)

TonyV

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On "private servers"
« on: June 19, 2015, 01:28:55 PM »
Hi all, I can't believe I'm actually posting about this because I kinda hate to dignify rumors with a response--undoubtedly, there will be a contingent of people out there of the opinion that since I'm denying stuff, it must be true.  Nevertheless, people have been posting messages with screenshots of the forums here, so we're getting directly entangled in this mess and I wanted to at least post one message so that sane folks will stop listening to the conspiracy theories flying around.  There have been several posts lately in the CoH Survivors group on Facebook and even here alleging that there are some private servers up and running.  This is the same CoH Survivors group in which shenanigans have happened before, and those shenanigans are why I left the group last August in preference for the City of Heroes group on which I'm an active participant today.

Last night, a user posted on the forums here the following:
Quote
When are the private servers going to be made open information for all to play on? Not just a select few of the chosen people that certain individuals feel "deserve" to continue to play in a world we all love?
Really now, this has gone on for almost 2 years now. It was going to become public knowledge at some point. Let's do the right thing and let everyone back in please.

The post was deleted in pretty short order.  I'd like to explain why.

The short version is that we do our best here to provide a welcoming place for former players of City of Heroes to congregate and interact, as well as get news and information that's relevant to the game.  I feel that posting such rumors and baseless allegations are harmful to the community, in that it fosters the notion that there is an "in" crowd that has some special secret access to something that the "out" crowd really wants badly.  Next thing you know, there are accusations flying around, hurt feelings going on, and it's all based on something that is unsubstantiated.

And make no mistake, it is unsubstantiated.  What few screenshots and "proof" I've seen of such a private server is at best flimsy, stuff that could easily be accomplished through using the Icon utility, skillful demoediting, and/or basic Photoshopping skills.  Nevertheless, several community members have come to me saying that they have been threatened via PMs and even personal email that someone is going to go all scorched earth and post private communication if "the truth" isn't revealed, and these folks have consistently been confused over what exactly it is they're supposed to be revealing. These are people who are working hard on successor projects as well as people who have been involved in the Save CoH efforts whose time is being wasted having to deal with this crap. Why would someone post messages with the intention of making people think that there is a private server and wasting the time of our community leaders if it's not real?  C'mon, it's the Internet, folks.  There are a lot of people out there who get their jollies working folks up just for the hell of it.  I beg you, please don't feed the trolls.

In reality, if you're here, as far as I'm concerned, you're part of the "in" crowd, period, end of story.

Now, having said all of that, I have consistently said that there is a possibility that one of the devs might have managed to get their hands on the code before the shutdown.  I'll even concede that there might be a private server out there.  If so, then more power to them, and I hope that eventually whoever has access to the code will see fit to release it.  I have also repeatedly acknowledged that there is a team out there I've been referring to SCoRE who has been working on reverse engineering a server, and while I know that it's been a long time and some folks have lost faith that they're making any progress, they ARE still working on it, and they ARE still making progress to the point where I've seen some simple interactions happening.  If you're wondering why they won't release their work, it's mainly because it is at a VERY early stage, it's VERY difficult to get it configured correctly, and they would much rather spend their time working on coding than having to worry about releasing stuff, supporting it, getting an inevitable flood of questions about "how do I set this up?" (only to be disappointed to find out that it takes expensive development software), and getting an inevitable flood of complaints that it's not working right and how much their progress sucks so far.  (Which was yet another thread posted a few days ago that we deleted, but I digress...)  And not to put too fine a point on it, the reason that team is highly encouraged to maintain radio silence on their efforts is precisely because of what is going on over on Facebook right now, baseless rumors and allegations that are completely unconstructive based on what some people think (but who don't actually know) what is going on.

So in short, is there a private server?  Not that I know of, although it is still being worked on.  Even if there is, it is totally irrelevant, because whoever is running it obviously doesn't want it released to the community-at-large for what is hopefully a really damn good obvious reason.  I know that if I were running such a server, seeing the noise that is being made over these allegations, along with the threats that are being made and the unbridled sense of entitlement that is being conveyed, along with the legal threat of what would happen if it got out into the wild, would certainly turn me off of the prospect of releasing the software.  In short, if there is such a thing, what's going on over on Facebook is likely driving those people deeper underground, not encouraging them to release it to the community.

To the folks who are spreading this crap around on Facebook, if you want something constructive to do instead, support the community instead of trying to tear it apart.  Express support for SCoRE, or participate in one of the successor projects, or even snag a copy of Icon and make some videos to entertain the community without the pretense of there being a private server.

But if you must troll folks, then at the very least, leave us the hell out of it.  I do try to be nice here and stay hands-off as far as moderation goes as much as I can, but be forewarned that troll posts here will continue to be deleted and those posters' accounts will continue to be banned.  Not because we're afraid that what you're saying is the truth, but because we don't like people coming here and stirring up trouble just for the hell of it.

To the folks who have kept a level head these past few years, thanks a ton for your continued support and your assistance in keeping the community together and tight-knit.  Trust me, your patience will eventually be rewarded, and there are things in the works to help satiate the desire for progress as we continue working towards the goal of having our city back!  Please feel free to join us over on the City of Heroes page on Facebook, and tune into Save CoH Radio on Friday nights at 8:30pm Eastern if you want to hear Rich "Pogoman" Banks and me talk about stuff going on in the community and in geek culture in general.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 01:42:09 PM by TonyV »

Ironwolf

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2015, 04:20:22 PM »
Thanks Tony.

If there is a private server - good! I would rather have a public server, but I like the idea someone is playing the game somewhere.

To those who only want a free ride a private server that would completely waste the time and money of the people trying to legally buy the game and continue to run it above board - go to hell.

I want the IP and the game back and in a legal way that can't be snatched away from us. Do you want to play the merry-go-round of building constantly on the next server that NCSoft hasn't shutdown with a C&D letter yet? The short sightedness and entitlement mentality continues to amaze me.

saipaman

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2015, 05:39:54 PM »
I hope a Dev did walk off with the code and if a deal with NCSoft can be reached, that said Dev would supply the code to the appropriate party.

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2015, 05:43:55 PM »
Thanks Tony.

If there is a private server - good! I would rather have a public server, but I like the idea someone is playing the game somewhere.

To those who only want a free ride a private server that would completely waste the time and money of the people trying to legally buy the game and continue to run it above board - go to hell.

I want the IP and the game back and in a legal way that can't be snatched away from us. Do you want to play the merry-go-round of building constantly on the next server that NCSoft hasn't shutdown with a C&D letter yet? The short sightedness and entitlement mentality continues to amaze me.
I totally agree with you IW and Tony, I got angry last night when someone posted #privateserver and it came from the same person who caused problems last year.
I want to go home, however, I am willing to wait. I am very happy that IW got the ball rolling again last year in attempt on getting our home back and I am grateful of Nate and the rest for trying to get our home back. I think some people see City of. as long gone, but I do not see it that way. I see it as an update that just takes more time. :)
One day the Phoenix will rise again.

Ironwolf

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2015, 06:50:37 PM »
I hope a Dev did walk off with the code and if a deal with NCSoft can be reached, that said Dev would supply the code to the appropriate party.

This is exactly what I want.

I want a Dev who has worked out all the bugs from an image. I want said Dev to hand over his hard work when the deal is reached in exchange for some cash and a thank you from the new overlords.

I want them to run this private server quietly and make sure everything works and is stable. Then once the game is returned to the public, for the private server code to be worked on until a stand-alone model is built - just in case.

Kyriani

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2015, 07:30:31 PM »
I read some of those Facebook comments... stuff like:

Quote
All or none.... we feel ALL should have access to this private server.... OR NO ONE

and

Quote
Watching it burn sounds fun

And I was like... what a bunch of selfish, self-entitled jerks! Don't get me wrong. If there really is a working private server out there, yea I sure as hell would want in on it. We all would. But if its real and its being kept secret, maybe its for a damn good reason! Of course I wanna play again, but even if I can't, what kind of bullshit is saying infantile crap like "if I can't play no one should be able to play!"? I wanna play coh again and I have faith that the SCORE team will make that happen someday. I'm not about to crap all over other people who might be playing on some private server just cause I miss the game. That's not the kind of person I am and I sure as hell wouldn't want to play with people like that.

So to those out there in that mythical private server I say good on ya! Keep COH alive however you can... and invite me pls! LOL! To the douchenozzles on facebook. Piss off. Your bullshit attitude is exactly why you don't deserve to be a part of the COH community and when SCORE finally finishes their server stuff I hope you feel guilty about this crap you're pulling with getting our hopes up with fake rumors about private servers. And let me know who you are when we have a server again so I can put you on ignore and never team with you.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 07:44:37 PM by Kyriani »

Leandro

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2015, 07:45:10 PM »
Kyri, pretty sure nobody there is going to read your message. They are very comfortable in their echo chamber and deleting all dissenting posts so RDG can keep spouting his "everybody agrees with me" nonsense. Honestly I wouldn't have dignified it with a response. Trolls want attention, don't waste your time giving it to them. The hilarious thing is that by getting banned from Titan, he's locking himself out of the new project that is coming Soon™. So in a sense, he's right -- everybody will be playing on a server and not letting him in.

Kyriani

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2015, 07:51:07 PM »
Kyri, pretty sure nobody there is going to read your message. They are very comfortable in their echo chamber and deleting all dissenting posts so RDG can keep spouting his "everybody agrees with me" nonsense. Honestly I wouldn't have dignified it with a response. Trolls want attention, don't waste your time giving it to them. The hilarious thing is that by getting banned from Titan, he's locking himself out of the new project that is coming Soon™. So in a sense, he's right -- everybody will be playing on a server and not letting him in.

Well I dont wanna get caught up in their crap over on facebook. I'll happily stay here in my own echo chamber with people I like ^_^   Oh and I can't wait to see what this Soon thing is! I'm excited!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 07:58:00 PM by Kyriani »

FourSpeed

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2015, 08:27:41 PM »
So, what's the info on this private server that everyone is playing on now???

 ;D ;D ;D

I kid, I kid...    ;)


Cheers,
4


PS> On a serious note, if the wherewithal to actually host a private server ever comes to pass, lmk - as I have a 6 Core 10GB Windows server (that I host a couple of other games on) that might be able to host a re-released COH.

TonyV

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2015, 08:35:49 PM »
Oh hells no, I'd be buying a server and hosting that puppy myself, and you'd all be starting in Tony Park.  :P

And yeah, your trainer there would be Taxibot Belle.  8)

FourSpeed

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2015, 08:39:53 PM »
lol - fair enough...    Anyway, once you *expand* yours, you know where another one is...

So, in addition to "Tony's Park", we could have "Four's Fairgrounds"      ;D



Cheers,
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Brightfires

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2015, 08:40:19 PM »
'Sounds like fun. XD
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Ohioknight

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2015, 10:58:57 PM »
Do you want to play the merry-go-round of building constantly on the next server...?

YES!


Please send me an invite...

KIDDING

 ;D
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Leandro

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2015, 12:20:45 AM »
Re-reading the original post, something I missed:

Now, having said all of that, I have consistently said that there is a possibility that one of the devs might have managed to get their hands on the code before the shutdown.  I'll even concede that there might be a private server out there.  If so, then more power to them, and I hope that eventually whoever has access to the code will see fit to release it.

Tony, that would be a terrible idea. It puts all of SCORE's efforts into question. Look at open source projects like ReactOS that were accused of copying code from the original Windows codebase: they had to shut everything down and spend a year auditing the source to prove it wasn't "tainted", and sack all contributors who touched it.

Reverse engineering the protocol and working on a server implementation could already call very unwanted attention from NC's lawyers, so we need to make sure that we can prove everything has been done "cleanly". If a former dev releases the source code out there, then NC's lawyers would have plenty of ammo to shut down any future projects by claiming they use their stolen code, regardless of whether anyone even looked at it. I know Titan's project uses a magnificent loophole to avoid any accusations of hosting a server (seriously, it's genius, wait for it) but still, let's not tempt fate.

Any devs who have original server binaries or code: keep them to yourselves! Titan got this. At this point in time, after 2+ years of work into cleanly reverse engineering the protocol, it'd do more harm than good.

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2015, 01:10:29 AM »
People wonder why I just stay out of zuckerberg's playground? This is why... entitled trolls and psychotics with no touchstone to reality. If this kind of thing happened in the physical world, at best you'd get a punch in the mouth, and more likely you'd be hauled off to the local cop shop for questioning and possible psychiatric exam. But places like facebook thrive on it, it's figured into their profit margin as "discussion driving" and brings in advertising traffic.

Meh. Why I am happy to stay here, and to  lesser extent, G+ (which I still treat like a pretty but poisonous snake)
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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2015, 05:56:40 AM »
Well, that's certainly one of the more interesting threads since the closure.
The things I miss by just waiting for Codewalker's wake-up call via e-mail.

If I had my own private server...I'd probably break it. But, I'd probably wonder how I could keep it running. As for making it open, for everyone? I'd start small and expand as the server could handle it. But if I started lagging because of my DVD edition cape...well, I think I'd cut off the invites until something could be figured out.

But, that's just me. But, if I had that kind of ability to keep a server running, I'd probably rebug the PB to put 30+ slots in the nova form. (or whatever it's called for the PB)
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

Manga

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2015, 12:56:56 PM »
Mythical private server indeed, no doubt paid for with a mythical pile of money falling from the sky.  Someone with tons of money risking losing it all to NCsoft's wrath would have to be completely crazy!

Keep squishing the trolls, Tony, until they're willing to come up with a realistic scenario.  Meanwhile, you'll have an actual surprise for them.

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2015, 09:43:24 AM »
I hate Facebook....for all the reasons stated above and more. I must say, I am SOOOO excited about the SOON project I can hardly see straight!

Listen to the 'mustn'ts'. Listen to the 'don'ts'. Listen to the 'shouldn'ts', the 'impossibles', the 'won'ts'. Listen to the 'you'll never haves', then listen close to me... Anything can happen . Anything can be.

The Fifth Horseman

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2015, 10:18:16 AM »
entitled trolls and psychotics with no touchstone to reality.
The net is full of them. Trust me on that.
This "EVERYONE MUST HAVE IT OR IT SHOULD BURN" garbage is just entitled tinfoil hats acting out their butthurt at not being part of something they are ABSOLUTELY SURE has to exist. 
I've dealt with this sort of people myself, including a few who decided that since the name of a project I was working on was announced, then they must have immediate access to it and threatening me is the way to get it.
At the time when the project was not even in alpha yet, just a nebulously defined goal and a registered domain name.
We were heroes. We were villains. At the end of the world we all fought as one. It's what we did that defines us.
The end occurred pretty much as we predicted: all servers redlining until midnight... and then no servers to go around.

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downix

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2015, 06:24:35 PM »
The net is full of them. Trust me on that.
This "EVERYONE MUST HAVE IT OR IT SHOULD BURN" garbage is just entitled tinfoil hats acting out their butthurt at not being part of something they are ABSOLUTELY SURE has to exist. 
I've dealt with this sort of people myself, including a few who decided that since the name of a project I was working on was announced, then they must have immediate access to it and threatening me is the way to get it.
At the time when the project was not even in alpha yet, just a nebulously defined goal and a registered domain name.
I know what you mean. I have people who still believe that either CoT is nearly done and we are holding back access to people, or that no work has been done and it's just a scam. There is no middle ground.

hurple

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2015, 06:42:29 PM »
I know what you mean. I have people who still believe that either CoT is nearly done and we are holding back access to people, or that no work has been done and it's just a scam. There is no middle ground.

So, you're confirming that no work is getting done, because it's almost finished and you're holding it back from people as a scam?

AHA!

Ain't the internet great?!?!

Drauger9

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 12:04:36 AM »
I trust the people here at Titannetwork. So when rumors like that start to circulate, I just ignore them.

It's like I tell new hires at work. Don't believe anything anyone tells you unless it come from the horses mouth. I also tell them, don't tell anyone anything you don't want everyone to know. :P

Leandro

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 03:39:48 PM »
I've heard from people in contact with "The Source" that they're taking credit about Paragon Chat being released now, and that clearly by raising such a ruckus, they ensured it was released to appease them. Which is absolutely insane. I've been teasing that Paragon Chat was coming since December, and the intended release date was April 28th for the anniversary. No amount of obnoxious posting in Facebook would make it happen any faster.

I am pretty sure that anyone reasonable will accept that we have a private server for testing code before we release it. We brought Shannon Doyle on it for the latest article and interview and you can see in the screenshots that the chatserver for Pocket D broke while she was on it, so, yeah, still bugs to sort out. We want to release something public when we know it works, not something half-baked that breaks every time you zone.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 03:44:58 PM by Leandro »

Victoria Victrix

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2015, 04:01:06 AM »
I've heard from people in contact with "The Source" that they're taking credit about Paragon Chat being released now, and that clearly by raising such a ruckus, they ensured it was released to appease them. Which is absolutely insane. I've been teasing that Paragon Chat was coming since December, and the intended release date was April 28th for the anniversary. No amount of obnoxious posting in Facebook would make it happen any faster.

I am pretty sure that anyone reasonable will accept that we have a private server for testing code before we release it. We brought Shannon Doyle on it for the latest article and interview and you can see in the screenshots that the chatserver for Pocket D broke while she was on it, so, yeah, still bugs to sort out. We want to release something public when we know it works, not something half-baked that breaks every time you zone.

Having had the fortune to be on some of that testing....yeah.  Seriously, folks, there are still plenty of people in the US that believe:

In fairies.
In a flat-earth.
That the moon-landings were a hoax.
That the Royal Family of Great Britain is composed of shape-shifting lizard people. 

So out of all the thousands of people that were passionate about City, there were bound to be a handful who'd believe in private servers that some mysterious "elite" were keeping them out of.

And I'd like to remind you all that one of those people was the Now-Banned-Guy-Whose-Handle-Began-With-"P".  He whose incoherence was legendary.  He whose YouTube videos made grown men shudder and turn away. 

Just sayin'.
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Acanous

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2015, 04:51:01 AM »
Hm.

It's been years since the shutdown. There have been more than a few teasing posts and reopening of old wounds, but still silence en mass.
Human nature, if there were a small group of people who had access to a private server for those years while shutting out the majority- even for good reasons and fear of legal action- they would be right to expect some vitriol from at least a portion of those who were shut out. Giving something to a few and nothing to the masses is a surefire way to foster resentment.
That some would react like this, even in absence of evidence, is also unsurprising. People who are losing hope get desperate before giving up.

That's why I'm so glad that Leo and Codewalker have got this chat program going out to everyone. It's a lot of work and good will shown to the community at large, it's something to reunite us and give us back at least some of the city.
If we have something for everyone, it should kill that resentment and restore a lot of faith in our community.
Thanks, guys.

Arcana

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2015, 12:41:28 AM »
I've heard from people in contact with "The Source" that they're taking credit about Paragon Chat being released now, and that clearly by raising such a ruckus, they ensured it was released to appease them. Which is absolutely insane. I've been teasing that Paragon Chat was coming since December, and the intended release date was April 28th for the anniversary. No amount of obnoxious posting in Facebook would make it happen any faster.

I am pretty sure that anyone reasonable will accept that we have a private server for testing code before we release it. We brought Shannon Doyle on it for the latest article and interview and you can see in the screenshots that the chatserver for Pocket D broke while she was on it, so, yeah, still bugs to sort out. We want to release something public when we know it works, not something half-baked that breaks every time you zone.

I had to deal with this sort of thing all the time on the official game forums: people claiming all sorts of things while I knew they were completely full of crap, but not really being in a position to call them on it.  Unfortunately, this is part of the gig.  At some point you have to make peace with the fact that you can't argue with people who live in imaginary worlds they construct to compensate for their woefully inadequate understanding of real one.  I don't even know what Codewalker's favorite color is, but I am absolutely certain no one can compel him to release software one minute sooner than when he thinks its reasonable to do so**.  I honestly have no idea where this is happening or have actually read the referenced discussion, but anyone who thinks they compelled you guys to accelerate your efforts in a couple of days on a project that has spanned months has been smoking way too much of their Bigfoot turd collection.


** Why?  Because if those people were as passionate about serving the community they purport to love, they'd know you can't force a volunteer to abandon quality control of a purely voluntary passion project.  You do it for the community, and you want it to be something you can be proud of offering to the community, and you'd never sacrifice that just to appease a bunch of nutballs.  I know that, I'm sure you know that, Codewalker knows that, and anyone who's spend hundreds of hours working on a volunteer community contribution knows that.  You can be berated into quitting, but not into following someone else's demands.

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2015, 03:39:18 AM »
It's really baffling how some people have that attitude, where they'd prefer nobody have something if they can't. I miss CoH a lot, but if somebody somewhere was playing it that's almost a positive thing in terms of giving hope that the game will be more widely available again. And as Leandro says, if waiting longer means the game eventually comes back in a legally safe way, that's the best outcome for everyone.

The thing is too, even if SCoRE comes through, people need to be prepared for the idea that there's probably going to have to be a period where a smaller group of people are playing the game before everybody gets to. Between the 'Eureka' moment and being publicly available there will almost certainly need to be a decent period of testing where some people are essentially playing the game but not everybody is.

I think it's amazing that there's still hope for the game coming back even if it doesn't get officially bought by somebody. I just wish my technical skills were up to scratch to contribute on such efforts, but the people who are making those efforts should be applauded, not looked at jealously.

Acanous

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2015, 06:45:36 AM »
This post starts out kind of negative, but bear with me. The overall message is positive.

Iron, it's a sociology thing. The best example in real world terms is probably in Russia.
It's good that NC is having the power taken from them. Nobody argues that. They were the Tzars, and treated us crappily. That the community is taking that power, that's a good thing too.
When, in Tony's words, it starts to seem like there's "Elites" being allowed access when the common man isn't, like for example early chat server access in "Soon" "Paragon Chat", people who aren't selected are going to be a bit jealous at first. Then comes "Why wasn't I picked?". You try to be happy for the people who did get in, and it works like that at first, let's say 3-6 months, but over a prolonged period of time, it festers.
You behave yourself. Don't ask pointed questions. Try to keep things hushed so Codewalker can release Soon Paragon Chat without NC being dicks. But every time someone else who knows less than you do asks a question, you start to feel bad. You can't give them hope without endangering Codewalker's project.
So you sit and you wait, and news comes in sporadic trickles. Let's say this goes on for another 2 years, till 2017 and a few people have access to the chat server, but still have to keep it quiet. 
The community at large weren't clued in. The selection process is a total mystery. How much can you say, and to whom, without cutting your own chances for participating?
Suddenly it's gone from a "Screw NC we're doing our own thing" into group paranoia, secret police, and all the while you know there's people on the inside, chatting on the program.

You're still on the outside. Stuff goes on in your life and maybe you lose some people you used to play with. They go to the grave and you knew, KNEW you could have had one last toast in Pocket D, if only you weren't both on the outside.

That's the kind of thing that sets people off. They aren't really mad at the people doing the work. The silence is what they get mad at. These people aren't entitled, they aren't whiny and they certainly don't want NC to come back, but if all they get is recrimination, well, when the veil comes off, they're going to be upset.

So what Leandro and Codewalker are doing here, it's brilliant. Releasing a few updates, getting everyone to put the word out, and giving the community something to work with. That's like feeding the masses and making the trains run on time. If there's some people who have access to some further code and they're beta testing it, like say new features to Soon Paragon Chat that include travel powers or something, well now there's something to show for the people who aren't selected. It breaks the silence.


[[EDIT: Fixed the name of the project. ~Agge]]
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 03:59:46 PM by Aggelakis »

Arcana

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2015, 08:41:02 PM »
When, in Tony's words, it starts to seem like there's "Elites" being allowed access when the common man isn't, like for example early chat server access in "Soon" "Paragon Chat", people who aren't selected are going to be a bit jealous at first. Then comes "Why wasn't I picked?"

They need to get used to it.  Same thing happened with City of Heroes closed betas.  People kept complaining about them, and demanding the practice stop.  I'll let people in on a little secret if you haven't ever been in a closed beta: the closed betas were so much better in terms of quality testing, feedback, and discussion, that before deciding to terminate closed betas the devs would probably decide to terminate all betas and test their content by having chimpanzees throw poo at it.

Its not hard to understand why.  Its not that every closed beta tester was a great tester, and its not that every single person excluded didn't have something valuable to contribute.  Its that the people who were pissed off they were not included were statistically very likely to be the people you didn't want in it.  If you were the kind of player they wanted, one day you could be randomly selected to be in the beta.  You could then prove that by actually making noticeable and unique contributions.  And then they'd remember you and bring you back.  It was an imperfect system that generated exceptionally good results.

Every system needs testers.  Open testing isn't going to cut it.  And volunteer projects can't generally promise deadlines or feature sets.  So they have to be secret, they have to have a small group of testers, the rest of us just have to wait.  And if you can't wait, go outside and do something else.  But there's simply no excuse for projecting a negative attitude and inventing your own facts to create a martyr narrative.  A bunch of malcontents taking credit for getting Paragon Chat released is no different than me trying to take credit for writing it and claiming Codewalker copied it.  Its an attempt to achieve undeserved glory at someone else's expense.  And transparently so.

The thing I find simultaneously the most understandable and yet also the most baffling is that its understandable in a sense why someone would foster this self-delusion.  Among their own circle of friends, its easy to sell.  The only people in a position to see through it are probably total strangers.  People like me, say.  And yet, what's baffling to me, and has always been baffling to me, is why you would want to impress those people, those people around you how obviously aren't creating anything, aren't knowledgeable about anything, aren't capable of anything except sycophancy, at the cost of making yourself look like an idiot and a jackass to the very people who actually know more, can actually help you in theory, are the people more likely to be creating your future.

Something many people explicitly told me they found odd was that often when I was debating someone on the game forums I would be clearly steering the debate away from populist lines of attack.  In other words, the person I was debating was saying things a lot of people, perhaps even the majority, would believe without question, while I would often make statements that were very difficult to easily agree with.  And the truth is that I considered every post to be not just a reply to another single person, but a message to everyone reading it.  And given a choice between saying the stupid thing everyone would agree with, or the intelligent thing most people would not agree with but people who knew as much as me or more would find interesting I always chose the latter.  Why look smart to people less smart and stupid to people who are more smart, when its the people who know as much or more than you that are the only people you can actually learn from.  That's idiotic, or rather a blueprint to stay idiotic.

Jealousy and insecurity are common emotions, and its not hard to understand why some people would act upon them.  But in a larger sense, letting them create a ceiling above you, such that everyone above that ceiling can see you for a jealous insecure person they would rather not have anything to do with, is self-destructive.  Its a sweet form of self-destruction that has an extra helping of self-delusion (it goes like this: if people can't prove what I'm saying is false, then everyone claiming to know I'm wrong is just as stupid as I am, since they can't be certain they are right, so I'm justified in portraying them as inferior), but ultimately self-destructive all the same.  I don't mind the self-destruction, I do mind the collateral damage it leaves in its wake.

Not that I think ultimately Leandro and Codewalker are going to care all that much in the end: its probably just going to be a bit annoying.  But its something they shouldn't have to deal with.  In that sense, there's really no excuse at all.  And that's my counter-rant.

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2015, 09:42:49 AM »
when you know more than the audience, you are in a position to see what efforts have been made and where the laurels should fall.
People who do not enjoy that freedom of information are unaware of any variables except that they cannot access any information at all.
I'm not saying that it's righteous to be angry, merely that this anger is inherent to the situation- it's rational, so it should not be surprising.

On the flip side, people who enjoy access to information/money/really any commodity that is desired by many begin to justify that access and the denial of said access to others. (Link: http://nymag.com/news/features/money-brain-2012-7/ ) This is especially true in a situation where you already have significant disincentives (Like legal issues) for trying to improve that access.
As a thinking being, this bias is incredibly tricky to identify.

That is why I very much agree with the Paragon Chat approach. It shows that those doing this work are aware of the problem, and are doing something to address it.

If you're seeing people posting on social media about this, they're not out for glory. They've given up hope. Well, except that one guy, but there's anomalous outliers in any group.

An infusion of hope that someday soon (tm) we'll be able to get back to itrials, task forces, or whatever made CoH special for you... if it doesn't solve the problem, it at least alleviates that portion of responsibility from those working on it and places it solidly on those on the outside.

Joshex

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2015, 10:42:20 AM »
Thankyou Tony for clarifying that there /ARE NO COX SERVERS HERE/.

If they exist they exist elsewhere run by other people who have not contacted us.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I really wish I could find that site I found a few years back that claimed to have a CoX private server for issue 3 or 5, it said "just download our patch file" and didn't supply the patch file, and there was no contact info, and whois came up "generic blank". so it was most likely a fake, or was it?. anyways if memory serves they claimed to be an ex-cryptic developer.

I don't have time to fish through 100 pages of web search to find it either, people asking where they can get a CoX private server or how to access it ETC. on yahoo answers ETC. can thank themselves for burying it.
doesn't matter anyways, it was probably just a prank site made by trolls.

Hey google and yahoo I know your bots are reading this, it would be really handy to have a date tag system on search results so we can search by date. "show only results that were available on day/month/year"

I know google has web cache logs up the wazoo recording this info from the beginning of the olden days of web traffic. put it to use already!
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Victoria Victrix

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2015, 12:42:10 PM »
Thankyou Tony for clarifying that there /ARE NO COX SERVERS HERE/.

If they exist they exist elsewhere run by other people who have not contacted us.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I really wish I could find that site I found a few years back that claimed to have a CoX private server for issue 3 or 5, it said "just download our patch file" and didn't supply the patch file, and there was no contact info, and whois came up "generic blank". so it was most likely a fake, or was it?. anyways if memory serves they claimed to be an ex-cryptic developer.

I don't have time to fish through 100 pages of web search to find it either, people asking where they can get a CoX private server or how to access it ETC. on yahoo answers ETC. can thank themselves for burying it.
doesn't matter anyways, it was probably just a prank site made by trolls.

Hey google and yahoo I know your bots are reading this, it would be really handy to have a date tag system on search results so we can search by date. "show only results that were available on day/month/year"

I know google has web cache logs up the wazoo recording this info from the beginning of the olden days of web traffic. put it to use already!

I have it on good authority it was a phishing site, designed to get access to your computer and steal your personal data.  Desperate people do desperate things.
I will go down with this ship.  I won't put my hands up in surrender.  There will be no white flag above my door.  I'm in love, and always will be.  Dido

Joshex

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2015, 05:01:09 PM »
I have it on good authority it was a phishing site, designed to get access to your computer and steal your personal data.  Desperate people do desperate things.

And now we have an answer! thanks muchly VV!
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Acanous

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2015, 06:51:30 PM »
Actually that one's real, just not very functional. Google CoH SEGS. They've got...something.

Nyx Nought Nothing

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2015, 07:21:18 PM »
Actually that one's real, just not very functional. Google CoH SEGS. They've got...something.
That's still around? *sighs*
i have yet to see any vaguely credible evidence for functioning private servers besides SEGS, and calling it functional is/was being very generous.


Doesn't mean they don't exist, but as a long dead guy once said, "Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead." All in all in some circumstances you can up the number of living people a fair bit, but several hundred people keeping a secret for several years isn't very plausible. Especially considering one of the people claiming to have been in on the secret. Anyone who would actually invite him to their secret server would have to have had no intention of keeping it a secret for more than a couple months. Or somehow have decided to invite him without knowing his past associations with the game at all, which seems even less likely. So, if secret CoH servers are somewhere out there they most likely have less than a dozen people using them and almost certainly none of those claiming they've been on them.


In an age of easily recording and documenting almost everything you see, online or off, it's amazing how unconvincing and sparse the proof has been. No FRAPS of people discussing ISIL while running an ITF or discussing some recent celebrity scandal? No webcam videos of someone logging into a secret server and playing? Considering some of the yahoos claiming to have played on these servers i'd expect them to have saved terabytes of video and screenshots as blackmail material so that they'd keep access to the secret servers.
So far so good. Onward and upward!

Victoria Victrix

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2015, 04:03:46 AM »
Actually that one's real, just not very functional. Google CoH SEGS. They've got...something.

I know there was a similar thing--NOT SEGS--that claimed to have I4 up and running and immediately planted spyware on clicking.  It got shut down fairly fast, thanks to some ace work on the part of Titanites.
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Joshex

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2015, 10:34:44 AM »
I know there was a similar thing--NOT SEGS--that claimed to have I4 up and running and immediately planted spyware on clicking.  It got shut down fairly fast, thanks to some ace work on the part of Titanites.

Yep, I trust this answer. it sounds very much correct.

Actually that one's real, just not very functional. Google CoH SEGS. They've got...something.

no I wasn't talking about SEGS, it was a website with all the early CoX graphics and less than a handful of pages accessible from the top menu.

if it had been legit it wouldn't need a patch file. it would just need the server's IP and -auth.

SEGS is still working hard they are just not ready to show anything yet, in comparison Icon doesn't attempt to do all the things SEGS is trying to do so it was able to show results quicker. SEGS is going for a full server they are not done yet and it wont run yet (at least that was the state it was in last time I checked).

There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2015, 11:01:21 AM »
Last I heard, Nemerle had thrown in the towel on SEGS due to lack of interest from other developers after several years of working on his own. Maybe he'll get involved once the Paragon Chat source is released. The low level stuff is the hardest and that's finally (mostly) taken care of.

Joshex

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2015, 11:03:18 PM »
Last I heard, Nemerle had thrown in the towel on SEGS due to lack of interest from other developers after several years of working on his own. Maybe he'll get involved once the Paragon Chat source is released. The low level stuff is the hardest and that's finally (mostly) taken care of.

....

sad. he sounded like he really knew what he was doing, but that was back when I didn't know what I was doing enough for the task he gave me. I've come a long way since then and still feel bad about disappearing.

maybe I'll go over to the segs forum if it's still up and see if he'd like to corral over here to Paragon Chat. Not that I'm anyone special, he might even be mad at me for bailing without a second word.
There is always another way. But it might not work exactly like you may desire.

A wise old rabbit once told me "Never give-up!, Trust your instincts!" granted the advice at the time led me on a tripped-out voyage out of an asteroid belt, but hey it was more impressive than a bunch of rocks and space monkies.

Arcana

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2015, 12:38:46 AM »
Last I heard, Nemerle had thrown in the towel on SEGS due to lack of interest from other developers after several years of working on his own. Maybe he'll get involved once the Paragon Chat source is released. The low level stuff is the hardest and that's finally (mostly) taken care of.

There were many times I wished I could reach out to him and offer my help, but while the game was running in some ways I was the only person on Earth who *couldn't* help him with a clear conscience.  An outsider could do anything.  An insider could make an informed decision as to whether or not to help him.  But I had access to insider information that I couldn't possibly get informed consent to pass onto a reverse engineer.  It would have been extremely unethical for me to get information from the devs and pass it onto him for SEGS when they had no idea I was doing that.  Since I couldn't very well ask, I couldn't get involved either.  It was an extremely tight knot I couldn't find a way to untangle to my satisfaction.

ukaserex

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2015, 06:44:01 PM »
There were many times I wished I could reach out to him and offer my help, but while the game was running in some ways I was the only person on Earth who *couldn't* help him with a clear conscience.  An outsider could do anything.  An insider could make an informed decision as to whether or not to help him.  But I had access to insider information that I couldn't possibly get informed consent to pass onto a reverse engineer.  It would have been extremely unethical for me to get information from the devs and pass it onto him for SEGS when they had no idea I was doing that.  Since I couldn't very well ask, I couldn't get involved either.  It was an extremely tight knot I couldn't find a way to untangle to my satisfaction.

Last I checked, that's called integrity. Kudos.
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

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Re: On "private servers"
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2019, 04:17:59 PM »
Topic locked.  And based on this, the policy is now considered deprecated.

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