Where I have been for two years.

[Arcana]

My birthday will be a cinch.

First the frogs, then the snow, and now they tie you up on your birthday?  Man that's rough.

[Joshex]

Then our housekeeper stole my ATM card and the PIN number that had come in the mail to our savings account and wiped it out.  The police investigated and she claimed Larry had given it to her because they were having an affair.  The Credit Union used this to decline to reimburse us.  Several lawyers told us the case was unwinnable, because the Credit Union (TCCU) would continue to appeal even if we won. wiping out any money we might get back.

Sorry I haven't been around but I hope the above are reasons enough.

I'm sure you did in fact emphasize the point that it was /YOUR/ ATM card not Larry's? therefore she would have had to steal it. This would void her whole defense (which is an obvious lie/excuse all together)

if the credit institution got involved in the case (such as taking sides) then that makes them at fault, they were obviously doing whats best in their business interest to not have to pay it back.

then again, it's not the credit institution that should pay it back, it's the housekeeper (you only get the credit institution to reimburse you when you don't know the culprit(s) directly). Let her get in debt for all you care, if she spent the stolen money or transferred it to family and no longer has it, then that's her fault. keep the credit institution out of it, and also make sure you demand reimbursement for all elapsed court time and lawyer fees.

make sure you make it clear that you are not asking the credit institution for a reimbursement but are suing the housekeeper directly for her theft and damages (Also make sure your husband is allowed to voice his opposition to her claim (at the witness stand) that they were having an affair, that makes her claim against his claim "hearsay" as in neither can be taken as evidence because there is no evidence to prove either, it's one person's word against another). if she has 'dirty soiled anything' with your husband's DNA, your defense is "she's the housekeeper, she had access to our waste and laundry and obviously tampered with it." very little defense to that.

Then as the credit institution is not involved in the case as anything other than a witness by which the money went through from your account to the housekeeper's account(s) they are an outside party/witness and cannot form a rebuttal or an appeal. To do so would show bias on behalf of your housekeeper.

but I'm sure you and your lawyers thought of that, so it's probably useless, but meh, it's there in the slight chance that it may be helpful.

Not to play it down, but this legal advice I'm giving is based on the information obtained in criminal law courses I took in high school in 2003-2004?.

Anyways, glad to see you're back, and I hope things start going better for you. Stuff like that really ticks me off.

Even if you wont sue her directly or such, can I have permission to make a mission/arch about this topic using different names?

"Supervillain maid possessed by terrible wicked spirits and her credit institution goons stole your money."

plot: she needs the money to buy gold to enchant to feed her wicked spirits which give her her powers and if not stopped will steal money from the whole world as an undercover housekeeper.

final mission: as you've observed the gold seems to still be inside her, beat the gold out of her to weaken her powers and free the host from the evil that possess her. defeat Wicked Maid.

[Twisted Toon]

... Do you live in that state with the trick road? :p

Yes, she does.

[Stealth Dart]

Welcome back Victoria!  You have been missed!  Thanksgiving in Paragon City.  Sounds good!

[Arcana]

Not to play it down, but this legal advice I'm giving is based on the information obtained in criminal law courses I took in high school in 2003-2004?

You should consider playing it down.  Way, way down:

1.  Separate from the fact you don't know the financial facts in this case, claiming a spouse provided access to their spouses' ATM card is a legitimate defense against fraud and theft, because of the reasonable presumption they have that right.  This would be an affirmative defense in either civil or criminal court.  Your class should have covered that.

2. Heresay refers to references to statements made out of court and not under oath used to attempt to prove the content of the statements themselves.  Claiming she was having an affair with VV"s husband in court would be direct testimony, offered under oath.  Her husband's claim that they were not having an affair would also be direct testimony, possibly as a rebuttal witness.  Neither statement would be heresay, because neither references statements made by a third party out of court.  In fact, "he told me I could use the ATM for whatever I wanted" would probably also fall under one of the exemptions to the heresay rule, offered not to prove the statement to be true but to illustrate the state of mind of the person making the statement.  Your class really should have covered that, its a foundational element of US criminal law.

3.  The credit union would almost certainly not be a "witness" in this case, except insofar as their financial records could be subpoenaed to prove the factual statement money was actually withdrawn.  There's no reason to attempt to legally maneuver them into not testifying.

4.  In cases like this, you can generally only sue for compensatory damages (designed to recover losses due to the activity being sued over, and things like pain and suffering) and punitive damages (damages designed to deter future similar activity).  You can't generally sue to cover legal fees except under certain special circumstances.  And if you're suing the credit union itself, its virtually impossible in this circumstance to receive punitive damages, since they had no way of knowing the ATM usage was unauthorized.  If the credit union elected to appeal indefinitely to attempt to deter recovery claims like this, its very possible the court costs could exceed the final recovery amount.  A criminal conviction might not even help, because even if the ATM use was fraudulent, it would depend on the credit union's terms and conditions as to whether and to what degree they are contractually responsible for ATM card abuse.  I am unfamiliar with TCCU, so I can't speak to their policies.  Many banks and credit unions, however, have separate policies for credit transactions and PIN-verified ones, and the PIN-verified ones often offer far less protection.


Unsolicited legal advice is a dangerous thing, even when its accurate.  When its extremely inaccurate it becomes something else entirely.

[DrasticPaladin]

VV it's great to see you posting again. I'm so thrilled to see you back that I finally made an account on here. (I used to be Big_Mike on the COH forums.)

[Joshex]

You should consider playing it down.  Way, way down:

1.  Separate from the fact you don't know the financial facts in this case, claiming a spouse provided access to their spouses' ATM card is a legitimate defense against fraud and theft, because of the reasonable presumption they have that right.  This would be an affirmative defense in either civil or criminal court.  Your class should have covered that.

2. Heresay refers to references to statements made out of court and not under oath used to attempt to prove the content of the statements themselves.  Claiming she was having an affair with VV"s husband in court would be direct testimony, offered under oath.  Her husband's claim that they were not having an affair would also be direct testimony, possibly as a rebuttal witness.  Neither statement would be heresay, because neither references statements made by a third party out of court.  In fact, "he told me I could use the ATM for whatever I wanted" would probably also fall under one of the exemptions to the heresay rule, offered not to prove the statement to be true but to illustrate the state of mind of the person making the statement.  Your class really should have covered that, its a foundational element of US criminal law.

3.  The credit union would almost certainly not be a "witness" in this case, except insofar as their financial records could be subpoenaed to prove the factual statement money was actually withdrawn.  There's no reason to attempt to legally maneuver them into not testifying.

4.  In cases like this, you can generally only sue for compensatory damages (designed to recover losses due to the activity being sued over, and things like pain and suffering) and punitive damages (damages designed to deter future similar activity).  You can't generally sue to cover legal fees except under certain special circumstances.  And if you're suing the credit union itself, its virtually impossible in this circumstance to receive punitive damages, since they had no way of knowing the ATM usage was unauthorized.  If the credit union elected to appeal indefinitely to attempt to deter recovery claims like this, its very possible the court costs could exceed the final recovery amount.  A criminal conviction might not even help, because even if the ATM use was fraudulent, it would depend on the credit union's terms and conditions as to whether and to what degree they are contractually responsible for ATM card abuse.  I am unfamiliar with TCCU, so I can't speak to their policies.  Many banks and credit unions, however, have separate policies for credit transactions and PIN-verified ones, and the PIN-verified ones often offer far less protection.


Unsolicited legal advice is a dangerous thing, even when its accurate.  When its extremely inaccurate it becomes something else entirely.

yeah, you're right I just hate to see these things happen to people who are already having a hard time.

[Victoria Victrix]

Short form on the ATM card front is:

Everything Arcana said, plus, we were nice to the housekeeper, got her clothing, and since she did not have a bank account, helped her start an account at that same credit union.  Which the credit union used as "further proof" Larry was having an affair with her (facepalm).  No good deed goes unpunished.

[Super Firebug]

Ic9dp73tN201li6428Ex12345 can you read this? PM me what you think it says, I'm testing out an encryption model.

Sure. It says, "You can't read this! Ha ha, I win!"

[Arcana]

Sure. It says, "You can't read this! Ha ha, I win!"

Actually, it says yet another programmer thinks they can invent a block cipher.  I have yet to meet the programmer capable of even equaling Enigma, but they keep trying.

The message also exhibits a lot of structure, but its probably too short to evaluate with conventional cryptanalysis.  In other words, its not long enough to expose the weaknesses in its encryption algorithm (at a glance it seems to have barely 120 bits of message content), unless you get lucky and guess the algorithm directly.

Also, this is way off topic, even for me.

[Joshex]

Short form on the ATM card front is:

Everything Arcana said, plus, we were nice to the housekeeper, got her clothing, and since she did not have a bank account, helped her start an account at that same credit union.  Which the credit union used as "further proof" Larry was having an affair with her (facepalm).  No good deed goes unpunished.

yeah, I kinda figured that, I know you mentioned the housekeeper a while back too saying how you took her in, oh well, guess nothing can be done but forgive, forget and earn the money back.

[BadWolf]

Not sure if it was presumptuous (I apologize in advance if it was) but I did mention on File 770 that now would be a very good time to buy your books, and next payday my family will be picking up some of the ones we don't already have. I think that will help better than any legal advice under the circumstances.

[Arcana]

Not sure if it was presumptuous (I apologize in advance if it was) but I did mention on File 770 that now would be a very good time to buy your books, and next payday my family will be picking up some of the ones we don't already have. I think that will help better than any legal advice under the circumstances.

I pre-ordered the new book.  Its a few months away from release, but as a Disney shareholder its a bit of a win-win on that purchase.

(If you have young children or nieces and nephews, I tend to recommend Disney stock.  That way, when you're standing in line at the Disney store for the twelfth time or watching that Disney Junior cartoon that's their absolute favorite this week, again, you can be thinking about how every little bit helps your retirement aspirations.  Now if you'll excuse me, I have to catch up on some Oso the Special Agent bear.  Its my niece's favorite.  Also, Octonauts is her favorite.  Except for Frozen, which is her favorite.  Although Tangled is really her favorite.)

[Shadowe]

...Octonauts...

Is it true that in the US the penguin is Mexican?

[Arcana]

Is it true that in the US the penguin is Mexican?

From what I've seen, he's related to the Yo quiero taco bell chihuahua.

I actually like this cartoon because its actually educational.  On the other hand, vegimals.  My niece actually jumps around the room like a maniac screaming "Creature Report! Creature Report!" at the end of the episode.  VV needs to figure out how to get in on this action.  Vegetable-animal hybrids, secret agent bears, sentient trains, possessed toy veterinarians - this is science fiction and fantasy at its most hallucinogenic yet ludicrously profitable.

[Victoria Victrix]

From what I've seen, he's related to the Yo quiero taco bell chihuahua.

I actually like this cartoon because its actually educational.  On the other hand, vegimals.  My niece actually jumps around the room like a maniac screaming "Creature Report! Creature Report!" at the end of the episode.  VV needs to figure out how to get in on this action.  Vegetable-animal hybrids, secret agent bears, sentient trains, possessed toy veterinarians - this is science fiction and fantasy at its most hallucinogenic yet ludicrously profitable.

I don't think there are enough drugs in the world to make my brain capable of that.

Unless maybe I dried, ground up and snorted Keith Richards.

[Shadowe]

From what I've seen, he's related to the Yo quiero taco bell chihuahua.

I actually like this cartoon because its actually educational.  On the other hand, vegimals.  My niece actually jumps around the room like a maniac screaming "Creature Report! Creature Report!" at the end of the episode.  VV needs to figure out how to get in on this action.  Vegetable-animal hybrids, secret agent bears, sentient trains, possessed toy veterinarians - this is science fiction and fantasy at its most hallucinogenic yet ludicrously profitable.

My little 4-year-old devil-beast utterly adores Octonauts, but over here in the UK Peso is just a nervous English penguin. I was amused about the localisation. I like it a lot for the actual science, so I don't object to watching it, but, as you say, vegimals.

[Victoria Victrix]

Oh I think it is US stupidity that assumes Peso is "Mexican."  To 99.9% of the US population, if it has a Spanish accent, it is "Mexican." 

Peso could easily be from several places in South America.

http://www.seabirds.org/penguins.htm

King, Gentoo and Rockhopper Penguins live and breed in the Falkland Islands.  Rockhopper, Macaroni, Magellanic and Humboldt Penguins live and breed on the southern coastal regions of the South American continent.

[Von Krieger]

I don't think there are enough drugs in the world to make my brain capable of that.

Unless maybe I dried, ground up and snorted Keith Richards.

How can you tell? He looks rather well-dried already.

[Victoria Victrix]

How can you tell? He looks rather well-dried already.

He's still flexible.  Not dessicated enough yet to grind up.