Author Topic: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist  (Read 219346 times)

ukaserex

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #140 on: July 22, 2015, 03:59:27 PM »
There's a quick afk - like the doorbell, or the call of nature - and there's a run to the store or having to watch a recital your daughter is in.

I never saw a need to declare the status for a quick run to the kitchen or restroom. And for the other situations, I'd log off.

Like you say - some a bit silly, and some legit.
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FloatingFatMan

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #141 on: July 22, 2015, 04:15:15 PM »
But what if the store is only 1 minute's walk away? ;)

spindisc

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #142 on: July 22, 2015, 04:32:00 PM »
I have no clue what Codewalker does for a living that distracts him from this, but I would gladly support a Kickstarter Project to support him enough to only focus on Paragon Chat.

Or even a Patreon subscription.

Please consider this, Codewalker! :)

Rejolt

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #143 on: July 22, 2015, 04:46:48 PM »
I have no clue what Codewalker does for a living that distracts him from this, but I would gladly support a Kickstarter Project to support him enough to only focus on Paragon Chat.

Or even a Patreon subscription.

Please consider this, Codewalker! :)

Funding through Titan's website is the best way.
Rejolt Industries LLC is now a thing. Woo!

Codewalker

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #144 on: July 22, 2015, 05:24:06 PM »
If I had, I would never use it. I don't often afk anyway - at least, not when the game was active. I found that to be kind of rude. Sure - things happen - but somehow, I just managed to play through those things. Different lifestyle, I suppose, not having kids or pets needing attention.

On the flip side, I use Pidgin to connect to the Titan XMPP server and am pretty much always logged in, whether I'm there or not. I set my status to Away when I'm at work and may not be able to check in very often (or may have to leave the conversation at a moment's notice), and to Extended Away when I'm definitely not there. I'm AFK or semi-AFK more often than I'm not.

I may not be in-game during those times, but I do have a presence in Paragon Chat through global channels and tells.

So while giving the community the ability to roam around the game world again for social purposes is definitely part of it, so is allowing the community to transcend that world by offering more than one way to access it. I'd go so far as to expect and encourage people who are interested in hanging out with fellow COHers on XMPP only to do so, even if they have no intention of ever using the graphical client.

Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #145 on: July 22, 2015, 05:25:00 PM »
Seriously, I had no idea all this discussion would develop over something like AFK.

As Codewalker said, this is how the sausage is made.  Some (non-developer) players might think its argumentative or time-wastingly trivial, but when you're designing and building systems meant to be used by people, this is what you do all of the time.  Some would even argue the most interesting part of writing software is the part where you're not writing software.  Its the part where you carefully consider and make design decisions, and then get to see how those decisions play out when real people interact with what you've built.  True for most forms of engineering, but the feedback loop is particularly strong with software.

ukaserex

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #146 on: July 22, 2015, 06:06:21 PM »
As Codewalker said, this is how the sausage is made.  Some (non-developer) players might think its argumentative or time-wastingly trivial, but when you're designing and building systems meant to be used by people, this is what you do all of the time.  Some would even argue the most interesting part of writing software is the part where you're not writing software.  Its the part where you carefully consider and make design decisions, and then get to see how those decisions play out when real people interact with what you've built.  True for most forms of engineering, but the feedback loop is particularly strong with software.

"This is how the sausage is made."  -- look, that's golden. That's priceless. Awesome. I love the way that's expressed. I mean, who doesn't like sausage? Even vegans like sausage. They may not eat it, but I'm pretty sure they like it.

I hope I didn't come off like I thought it was trivial. The discussions I see over these matters bring back my somewhat faded memories of CIS 250 Data Structures with C++ and my initial visit to CIS 120, 121 with Java - with a very brief extra credit journey into Windows MFC for an extra credit project - (and I need the extra, I assure you!)

It just brings to light all the detail that I, for one, take for granted when I do something that to my untrained eye seems so simple, like send an e-mail or a simple line of text on FB through the IM.

Don't misunderstand my pointless interruptions, please. I love reading all about it. It's just a bit mind-boggling to me to realize all that goes on into....sausage creation.

That being said - if certain behaviors should be avoided to keep from overloading the chat system, just let me know. I'll avoid 'em.
Those who have no idea what they are doing genuinely have no idea that they don't know what they're doing. - John Cleese

Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #147 on: July 22, 2015, 06:19:13 PM »
That being said - if certain behaviors should be avoided to keep from overloading the chat system, just let me know. I'll avoid 'em.

Its really the developer's responsibility - Codewalker in this case - to make sure that he or she doesn't create a system that contains the seeds to its own destruction, and to the extent that is unavoidable to carefully warn the users of that possibility.  That's why these discussions happen with regard to any feature that contains that possibility, even when it doesn't seem obvious.  In this case there are a lot of contradictory considerations involved, including the predisposition and assumptions of the users who will use the system.

Since the whole point of using the City of Heroes game client as the basis for the system was to give people a familiar setting, its probably a very high priority for the system implementation to be able to properly handle all of the most popular use cases when that's possible.  That includes afk chatting which was a common macro.  The only issue is how to implement support in the way that makes the most sense thinking of Paragon Chat as a chat client, and still support the behaviors people have come to expect in City of Heroes the game client, both in a way that is technologically most efficient.  You know, just do everything perfectly in all respects under all conditions.

Golden Aurora

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #148 on: July 22, 2015, 08:13:05 PM »
I think another way to look at this is free QA. In other words, if you have devised a way to break it, please do so and report how and why (if you know why) this occurred.
This will positively affect code quality in most applications.

Tipsy

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #149 on: July 23, 2015, 04:38:36 AM »
Hi.  As long as we're discussing possibility further, I had some things I'd like to request/suggest/consider.

  • I see that you're working on making Macros stay through different logins... this will be great.  Can you also ensure that the /chatsave happens, too?  Currently when I login I need to type /chatload to get my established tabs how I want them.
  • Is it impossible to have a character "summon" another like Recall?  This is like the idea of summoning other players to a private instance.  Perhaps a character could simply summon another to the same zone instance.  Or would be amazing if they could summon each other cross-zone to their actual /loc position.
  • I asked Codewalker about the idea of adding something similar to /be_npc from Icon placed into this chat.  He said the main limitation is blocking out all the grief-oriented NPCs, such as giant/obnoxious things.  I just want to put this idea on the map of some-unknown-future-project, since it'd be cool :)
  • For badges, I see that you're working on the possibility of recreating the exploration badges.  I'd be curious if there's a way to entirely co-opt the badge Title system... meaning, either certain actions, or a moderator, could simply turn specific ones "on"--and that which earns them could be re-defined.  Just a thought.  History badges could be after clicking on a list of specific NPCs (with unique dialogue, like Null the Gull :D ).  Maybe those who drive player events get certain badges as a reward.  Maybe a badge for visiting every single zone in the game?  Can anyone out there think of clever ways to get badges given the chat-focused constraints.  There's also the possibility of just letting us have all the badges unlockable (except exploration?) so we can add those under near our names, as the game used to allow.  There could be harmless "points" systems in place that a db-write could tally (I'll admit I don't know much about how that works, but it's just an idea).
  • Email.  While email seems a touch silly and unnecessary, since I suspect it's primary use was 'attachments', it is a means of "leaving a message" for someone.
I apologize if this is in any way redundant... it's just things I didn't see on Codewalker's initial post.

LOVING Paragon chat!!  Thank you a thousand times for making this!

Best,
-Tipsy

Codewalker

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #150 on: July 23, 2015, 04:43:08 AM »
I see that you're working on making Macros stay through different logins... this will be great.  Can you also ensure that the /chatsave happens, too?  Currently when I login I need to type /chatload to get my established tabs how I want them.

Chat tabs should already be saved in the db; that was working even before binds were. Make sure you don't have a default chat settings file sitting around that's resetting everything (UAC can cause /chatsave to end up somewhere different if you're not careful).

Codewalker

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #151 on: July 23, 2015, 04:49:08 AM »
Maybe those who drive player events get certain badges as a reward.
[...]
There could be harmless "points" systems in place that a db-write could tally

Exclusive badges are pretty much impossible to do with Paragon Chat's architecture. It's decentralized -- there's no single authority who can verify which badges are 'legit', so anybody would be able to claim they have whatever badge they want simply by editing the database or something similar. Any badges would have to exist within the confines of them being a self-challenge minigame rather than something to show off.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 04:57:30 AM by Codewalker »

Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #152 on: July 23, 2015, 05:09:45 AM »
Can anyone out there think of clever ways to get badges given the chat-focused constraints.

Yes.

Tipsy

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2015, 05:18:06 AM »
Exclusive badges are pretty much impossible to do with Paragon Chat's architecture. It's decentralized -- there's no single authority who can verify which badges are 'legit', so anybody would be able to claim they have whatever badge they want simply by editing the database or something similar. Any badges would have to exist within the confines of them being a self-challenge minigame rather than something to show off.

Not to play devil's advocate, but I think there'd still be a lot of people into the idea even if it's not for showing off.  I mean, at least 70% (spitting that # out of my butt, of course) of the badges in the game were already remarkably easy to obtain.  Plus, not everyone wants to bother with db edits... and doing tasks in game, if they're cleverly designed, might be interesting to some.   I'm not sure if such an idea is worth the effort, but it does vaguely introduce a little bit of a 'game' element, even if it's not especially competitive.

I mean, I'm equally in favor of the idea of just blanketly unlocking every title from the previous game for us select from, for overtop our character names.

-Tipsy

Tipsy

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2015, 05:36:23 AM »
Another funny idea occurred to me.  This one is about travel powers.

If you're planning on essentially 'simulating' travel through clever modifications of movement, you may want to consider, after getting the basics, some New! Different! types of movement for funsies.  Such as:
  • Glide.  A character jumping from high up hits Glide, and thier falling rate slows as they advance forward.  Probably would need the sideways flying animation going.
  • Self-debuff: Slooooow.  Movement is intentionally ridiculously slow.  Would look cute to other players, in a derpy sort of way, if the character runs at weirdly extra slow speeds.
  • M#@^% CAR MODE!  /be_Npc a custom-set vehicle, and you get to "get in your car" and drive around.  Maybe ban it from some places like Pocket D, and movement speed is faster than running.
  • Double-jump Toggle.  Maybe a type of jump where you can jump a second time off thin air, like in some video games.
  • Upside-Down Airwalk.  Like how someone could fly at the ground and go upside down, a character could somehow levitate upside down easily to move around.  Just to be bizarro.
There's probably other movement-types like this I'm not thinking of.

-Tipsy

« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 05:59:02 AM by Tipsycakes »

Tipsy

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #155 on: July 23, 2015, 05:53:34 AM »
Chat tabs should already be saved in the db; that was working even before binds were. Make sure you don't have a default chat settings file sitting around that's resetting everything (UAC can cause /chatsave to end up somewhere different if you're not careful).

This fixed it, thank you!  Well, mostly.

I am still seeing two issues, which you may be aware of.

- I can't ever "Leave" a channel and have it stick.  Some channels I joined when I first started eternally come up on my channel list, even after I click LEAVE upon the next login.

- This tab called "DefaultHelpChat" keeps reappearing, even if I remove it and /chatsave. 



Any way to get rid of that bugger?

-Tipsy

Arcana

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #156 on: July 23, 2015, 07:52:46 AM »
If you're planning on essentially 'simulating' travel through clever modifications of movement

"Simulating" is not the right word.  Replicating is probably more accurate: the mapservers worked with the client to produce the kinds of movement we're used to: running, walking, leaping, flying.  Codewalker has to program Paragon Chat to generate the same messages to the game client that the mapserver used to, in order to produce the same results.  But inventing all new ways of moving is a different kettle of fish.  Sometimes it might be easy, and sometimes very difficult, depending on the specific details.  And inventing new powers and abilities is probably, except for strict usability issues, very far down Codewalker's priority list (when there are so many things that previously existed that don't work yet).

As far as I'm aware, there's no way to /benpc a car, because the cars weren't NPCs.  /benpc allowed you to convert your visual model to an npc, but not all things were npcs.  You couldn't /benpc a Steel Canyon building, for example, or /benpc the Atlas tram station.  I think the cars were also not npcs.  For that matter, I don't think the pedestrians were npcs either.

ziguzanuzoon

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2015, 08:00:06 AM »
all i got to say recreating them server files may take you years also when you say reverse engineering lol but best of luck i just hope people realize how much worck the dev team really have ahead of them

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2015, 10:31:04 AM »
Any way to get rid of that bugger?

-Tipsy

This probably isn't the cleanest solution, but it seems to have worked for me.

When I first started Paragon Chat at release, I had a legacy chat.txt file. It was filled with whatever leftover channels I had back when Beta was a thing. So, I had old supergroup channels, a Beta Testers channel and weirdly enough a Winter 2009 channel.

Like in your case, it was supremely annoying because no matter what I tried these things would just be laying there, reapplying themselves and just RUINING EVERYTHING. I tried editing the chat.txt file manually but that would invalidate the file - it would no longer load. I tried deleting it but it would just remake itself.

What I ended up doing was unjoining the channels (again!) but joining the ones I wanted too, saving the file (/chatsave) - then double checking to make sure that the changes saved right. The chat.txt file is right there next to your cityofheroes.exe. If everything is kosher then you make it read only. Right click > properties > check the read only box.

Now comes the tedious part. You need to log in to every character and load this file. It may take several /chatload iterations to get on and off every channel. I think this mostly depends on how many new channels you've joined.

This is what worked for me.

Felderburg

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Re: Paragon Chat Development Roadmap and Wishlist
« Reply #159 on: July 23, 2015, 03:31:05 PM »
Chat tabs should already be saved in the db; that was working even before binds were. Make sure you don't have a default chat settings file sitting around that's resetting everything (UAC can cause /chatsave to end up somewhere different if you're not careful).

You need to log in to every character and load this file. It may take several /chatload iterations to get on and off every channel. I think this mostly depends on how many new channels you've joined.

This is what worked for me.

Hm. This may be what is causing my issue. I've mostly just logged in onto new characters, and have had to reload all 4 default files - the options, the chat settings, the window settings, and the keybinds. I'll have to log in to an "old" character and see what happens.

I mean, I'm equally in favor of the idea of just blanketly unlocking every title from the previous game for us select from, for overtop our character names.

This is a good idea. Although some titles were tied to origin, so I wonder if that would be able to be changed / unlocked.

/benpc allowed you to convert your visual model to an npc, but not all things were npcs.

For a list, go here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FRh-RUWpn-9GO3h4rvopYTlex6ZoIpeBCOuMlQOty7k/edit#gid=0

or here: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Demo_Editing/Demo_Model_Names

While you can't be a car, you can be a pile of sandbags!

Turns out, there are actually cars on both of those lists. I will have to do some testing...
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